TI vs. Calculator Hackers

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Posted by CmdrTaco on Monday September 21, 2009 @03:28AM from the this-never-ends-well dept.

Nyall writes "So a bunch of TI calculator programming enthusiasts got together to factor the keys Texas Instruments uses to sign the operating system binaries for the ti83+ (a z80 architecture) and the ti89/v200 (a 68k architecture) series of calculators. Now Texas Instruments is sending out DMCA notices to take them down."

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first post by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:29 · Score: 5, Funny

55378008
1. Re:first post by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:40 · Score: 0
  
  Nice try, but this doesn't cleanly divide any of the TI keys. Especially not that 2nd function key.
2. Re:first post by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:40 · Score: 0
  
  60696016 - 5318008
  tfify
3. Re:first post by marklark · 2009-09-21 06:57 · Score: 1
  
  Is that you, Tommy?
Math by daveywest · 2009-09-21 03:32 · Score: 5, Funny

Somehow, this just doesn't add up.
1. Re:Math by Yvan256 · 2009-09-21 03:43 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  TI has a new calculator based on the original Pentium?
2. Re:Math by joaommp · 2009-09-21 03:53 · Score: 0, Redundant
  
  no, that one would have rounding and divide errors
  
  --
  Onda Technology Institute
3. Re:Math by Vintermann · 2009-09-21 04:02 · Score: 0, Redundant
  
  whoosh
  
  --
  xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
4. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:12 · Score: 0
  
  No, not "woosh". Here's a hint: every time anyone has said "woosh" it's been non-funny and every other time it was just as deserving of its own "woosh". Please shut up and die.
5. Re:Math by Vintermann · 2009-09-21 04:21 · Score: 1
  
  Calm down, joaommp...
  
  --
  xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
6. Re:Math by Hatta · 2009-09-21 04:50 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Yeah. I don't think TI factored this development into consideration when it released this product.
  
  --
  Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
7. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:50 · Score: 0
  
  Here's a hint: every time anyone has said "woosh" it's been non-funny
  Uh. That's the point. You didn't get it, therefore, whoosh...
8. Re:Math by Hal_Porter · 2009-09-21 04:54 · Score: 0, Redundant
  
  Whoosh.
  
  --
  echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
9. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:04 · Score: 0
  
  whoosh, again, just to make sure you see it.
10. Re:Math by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2009-09-21 05:37 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Z80 is pre-x86 architecture, i.e. pre-pre-Pentium, and 68k is pre-Power PC architecture.
  So technically, this should have sarcasmed with "oshwho".
  
  --
  (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
11. Re:Math by postmortem · 2009-09-21 05:52 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  no, that would be intel's state-of-the-art graphics chip Larrabee.
12. Re:Math by elfprince13 · 2009-09-21 05:55 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  As a long time member of the TI community, I have to say that I'm glad Slashdot is covering this. TI consistently works against the enthusiast community, and this is blatantly obvious in their new Nspire line of calculators. The 83+/84+ line has been their one concession to sanctioned assembly programming, and they still threaten legal action against anyone who starts delving into operating system stuff.
13. Re:Math by Mister+Whirly · 2009-09-21 05:57 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  every time anyone has said "woosh" it's been non-funny and every other time it was just as deserving of its own "woosh"
  whoosh
  
  --
  "But this one goes to 11!"
14. Re:Math by Yvan256 · 2009-09-21 06:00 · Score: 1
  
  Intel Larrabee, coming soon*
  * in 2031
15. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 06:25 · Score: 0
  
  Sig is flamebait.
16. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 06:41 · Score: 0
  
  Oh, sorry. I didn't realize you were the Minister of Humor and decided what is funny for everyone else. My apologies.
  
  But while I have you here - WHOOSH!!!
17. Re:Math by mckinleyn · 2009-09-21 07:27 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Then sign up for an account, get good karma, read daily, and go on a flamebait-hunting spree. Or, sign up for an account and turn off sigs.
18. Re:Math by Mitchell314 · 2009-09-21 07:58 · Score: 1
  
  At least it will work for a year.
  
  --
  I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
19. Re:Math by joaommp · 2009-09-21 08:06 · Score: 1
  
  "Calm down, joaommp"
  wtf?
  
  --
  Onda Technology Institute
20. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:42 · Score: 0
  
  whooosh
21. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 10:01 · Score: 0
  
  It's not a "whoosh" because the joke is based on a lie. If the Pentium did have addition problems, it would be accurate and funny.
  If you're going to present a falsehood in order to make your joke fit, you might as well go all the way and say something like "TI has a calculator based on Maxwell House's new blend?"
22. Re:Math by cbhacking · 2009-09-21 10:18 · Score: 1
  
  I'm pretty sure my TI-86 has a bunch of games written in assembly on it. I never learned to write them myself, or even what the architecture was, but there's a command (something like "asm()" ) that you had to use to run them.
  
  --
  There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
23. Re:Math by elfprince13 · 2009-09-21 11:45 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  It's z80. The 82, 85, 86 had to be hacked via a hex-edited backup file before it could be made to run assembly. The 81 only just not had exploits discovered to allow it to run assembly. The 83 didn't officially support it, but send(9prgmname was a sort of backdoor that allowed it. The 68K series is a little bit different story, but the differences in versions between hardware/firmware (my 68K terminology isn't quite up to speed), even in the same model make running assembly a pain in the arse. Look up "ghostbuster" (or something like that) on ticalc.org to see what I mean.
24. Re:Math by toddestan · 2009-09-21 12:44 · Score: 1
  
  And here I thought that everyone knew about the TI-82.99999993895874 by now.
25. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 13:52 · Score: 0
  
  whoosh...
26. Re:Math by Nyall · 2009-09-21 15:36 · Score: 1
  
  Wrong. The ti86 supported assembly out of the box without any need for a hacked backup.
  
  --
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
27. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 20:19 · Score: 0
  
  The 83+/84+ line has been their one concession to sanctioned assembly programming
  What do you mean by this? There are several other models that can officially be programmed in assembly. I kind of lost interest in TI's calculator business when they dumped the 85/86 line, though. :(
28. Re:Math by RockDoctor · 2009-09-21 22:37 · Score: 1
  
  So technically, this should have sarcasmed with "oshwho".
  Is that a bigend in your pocket, or are you just pleased to see me?
  
  --
  Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
29. Re:Math by Tailsfan · 2009-10-05 12:50 · Score: 1
  
  Well hello.... The most popular use is programming stuff for the calcs.
Wikileaks link by Brian+Gordon · 2009-09-21 03:33 · Score: 5, Informative

I'm a lurker in that community and I have to say I'm extremely disappointed with TI. The community has had to reverse engineer every component of the hardware with no help from TI, and has done an amazing job writing development tools and mapping out which memory addresses do what.
Here's the wikileaks link to the keys.
1. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:39 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  And thousands of people will mirror it....
  What will they do with people outside the US where the DMCA does not apply?
  The ease of which students can make their own programs is one of the reasons my college asked us to buy TI-brand calculators and not Casio (which is the other choice they give.. hp is not supported at all :-p)
  Meh...
2. Re:Wikileaks link by Lumpy · 2009-09-21 03:52 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  What will they do with people outside the US where the DMCA does not apply?
  Get the US government to invade them?
  
  --
  Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
3. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:55 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  And here's the Freenet key for the zip file: freenet:CHK@cua6vt6OGoe8dBOY2D4PR13jt~FvyvmHlMJKXPcXUgs,gFqVGC6lWjlSdE0cizGzWcyE5Y9f5J0QyWo-GNmLluY,AAIC--8/keys.zip
4. Re:Wikileaks link by VernonNemitz · 2009-09-21 04:03 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  TI is certainly mistaken about the reach of Copyright Law in this matter. Out of all the code in a calculator, which they might copyright, then according to that Law, it is:
  A. Fair Use to publish two numbers!
  B. Not Applicable if the numbers were never in the calculator code!
5. Re:Wikileaks link by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2009-09-21 04:10 · Score: 1
  
  Even worse, how can publishing two primes which multiply into a particular third number be unlawful? It's just a math result, you HP crooks! :p Now get over it and design stuff that people want.
  
  --
  Ezekiel 23:20
6. Re:Wikileaks link by TrentTheThief · 2009-09-21 04:15 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  I wonder if it's mirrored here: http://crystalwind.com/index.html
7. Re:Wikileaks link by sumdumass · 2009-09-21 04:31 · Score: 0
  
  How many countries are left where the DMCA doesn't apply?
  Pretty much every major country has signed onto the WIPO WTC and WPPT which are the basis of the DMCA. In other words, the DMCA or something very similar will apply and the countries who signed on are obligated to enforce it or their version of it.
8. Re:Wikileaks link by Hal_Porter · 2009-09-21 04:57 · Score: 1
  
  How would you feel if someone published your social security and Visa card numbers?
  
  --
  echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
9. Re:Wikileaks link by dgatwood · 2009-09-21 05:02 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  The DMCA doesn't protect hardware in the U.S., either. Since AFAIK TI doesn't sell copyrighted software that is protected by DRM, this is clearly not a DMCA violation, and unless TI's lawyers haven't read any of the cases that have clarified this beyond a reasonable doubt, it also qualifies TI for perjury charges for deliberately making a false DMCA claim---not that any attorney general will actually have the guts to make an example of them....
  IMHO, all these folks need to do is file a proper DMCA counter notice and then go about their business. Of course, IANAL, and they should consider getting advise from one.
  
  --
  Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
10. Re:Wikileaks link by ne0n · 2009-09-21 05:04 · Score: 0
  
  honest question here from a non-TI user: what makes the TI calculators better than, say, Pi Cubed (and a few other apps) for the iPhone? Is it the interface, dedicated keys? RPN?
  
  --
  $ :(){ :|:& };:
11. Re:Wikileaks link by s73v3r · 2009-09-21 05:08 · Score: 1
  
  I really wish you were right. Unfortunately, you're forgetting about the DMCA, under which, if anything copyrighted is encrypted, then it is illegal to break that encryption, and illegal to distribute the information on how to break that encryption. Even with the few exemptions that the Library of Congress has granted, they tend to exempt breaking the encryption, but not distributing the tools and information needed to break the encryption.
12. Re:Wikileaks link by Manax · 2009-09-21 05:09 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I might be pissed, but I certainly wouldn't try to claim that they are violating my copyright, or claim that they are violating the DMCA (Ya know, there is that checksum digit in there...) or some other non-sense. I might make the claim (rightly) that they are attempting to commit fraud or identity theft, or facilitating such... but that isn't quite the same thing, now is it?
  
  --
  "Why should I be content to simply live in this world, when I, as a human being, can CREATE it?" - Oertel
13. Re:Wikileaks link by CastrTroy · 2009-09-21 05:10 · Score: 1
  
  Probably because it has a full keyboard. Anyway, I can't really see why they would want to overwrite the OS for the TI calculators. You can write your own programs in assembly, or in Basic. I don't really see a need to overwrite the entire OS when it doesn't really stop you from running anything you want to anyway.
  
  --
  
  Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
14. Re:Wikileaks link by nmb3000 · 2009-09-21 05:13 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  what makes the TI calculators better than, say, Pi Cubed (and a few other apps) for the iPhone?
  Primarily the fact that it is a calculator and not a phone. The TI-89 has better numeric capabilities, great graphing ability, and a nice display. It can also run for months on a single pair of AA batteries.
  That, and it doesn't cost more than $800 a year to operate.
  Is it the interface, dedicated keys? RPN?
  Yes, yes, and no. I can't imagine trying to use a tiny little touch screen for any serious calculator use.
  
  --
  "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
  /)
15. Re:Wikileaks link by CyprusBlue113 · 2009-09-21 05:15 · Score: 1
  
  I'd be annoyed that the fraud protection is so pitiful that social security number is sufficient to do anything underhanded. Which I am.
  
  --
  a handful of selfish greedy people are no match for millions of selfish, greedy people -u4ya
16. Re:Wikileaks link by stephanruby · 2009-09-21 05:16 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  What will they do with people outside the US where the DMCA does not apply?
  Put them on a hacker terrorist watch list and disappear them the next time they partake in a terrorist training camp (e.g. a math conference).
17. Re:Wikileaks link by PRMan · 2009-09-21 05:27 · Score: 1
  
  Find a minor country?
  
  --
  Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
18. Re:Wikileaks link by vintagepc · 2009-09-21 05:33 · Score: 1
  
  Try to start your own, a la TPB?
  
  --
  Evolution - Est. 4500000000 B.C. Don't piss in the gene pool.
19. Re:Wikileaks link by afex · 2009-09-21 05:49 · Score: 1
  
  I have quite a few apps for the iphone do different scientific and graphing calculator functions, and none even come close to the ease of use or speed of using my ti-89.
  
  That, and my colleagues will have their calculators open, do the math, and turn them off before my iphone app even opened.
  
  i will say, however, that i love the many EE related apps that do quick common calculations: current-limiter resistor calculations, resistor network calculations, wire gauge calculations, etc
20. Re:Wikileaks link by TheRaven64 · 2009-09-21 06:12 · Score: 1
  
  It's not quite so clear cut in this case. If the software were encrypted, and decrypted by the bootloader, then it would be illegal to distribute tools for copying it and running it on other devices. This case is the reverse, however. It is the distribution of the key required to sign the software to run other code on this hardware. That can not be used for copyright infringement, so it is not covered by the DMCA.
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
21. Re:Wikileaks link by jimicus · 2009-09-21 06:19 · Score: 1
  
  In what way is requiring firmware to be signed with a particular key not DRM?
22. Re:Wikileaks link by sumdumass · 2009-09-21 06:20 · Score: 1
  
  Poor choice of words I guess. Major could be read as first world countries and third world countries doing substantial commerce with the first world countries.
23. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 06:20 · Score: 0
  
  IMHO, all these folks need to do is file a proper DMCA counter notice and then go about their business. Of course, IANAL, and they should consider getting advise from one.
  Yes it does, all the hardware needs is a minimal attempt to secure or encrypt firmware. ROT13 will do.
24. Re:Wikileaks link by HazMat+79 · 2009-09-21 06:21 · Score: 1
  
  Not to mention, where I go to college, you can use calculators only. Makes sense though with Phones being net capable.
25. Re:Wikileaks link by Toonol · 2009-09-21 06:29 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Wow, freenet DOES have a raison d'etre other than illegal porn!
  
  I'm kind of kidding, but posting of freenet links on slashdot ought to be standard procedure whenever something is DMCA'd.
26. Re:Wikileaks link by gr8_phk · 2009-09-21 06:30 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  In what way is requiring firmware to be signed with a particular key not DRM?
  It is not protecting copying of the firmware, it's preventing the running of unsigned firmware. It's probably not preventing the copy of applications either. It's simply preventing "unauthorized" software from running on the hardware. It's a lock, not copy protection. See the garage door opener case for an example where this is not protected under the DMCA.
27. Re:Wikileaks link by Brian+Gordon · 2009-09-21 06:35 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Yeah why would you want to overwrite the OS when you can just write your programs from within Windows?
  This opens the door for an open-source TI operating system. TI releases minor OS updates every few years and doesn't add much new functionality. Now we can do whatever we want and have it integrated completely with the home screen.
28. Re:Wikileaks link by Mister+Whirly · 2009-09-21 06:44 · Score: 1
  
  Or persuade the country they reside in to go after them. (Sweden - I am looking at you.)
  
  --
  "But this one goes to 11!"
29. Re:Wikileaks link by TangoMargarine · 2009-09-21 06:49 · Score: 1
  
  That, and "because we can."
  It's kind of sad, really, because TI seems to have been pretty lax about this sort of borderline-"infringing" stuff for a long time. You can download TI emulators and, with a little extra effort, *cough* ROMs. And they haven't done anything to break non-nostub ASM programs on the 83+/84+ line, charitably enough (okay, so that doesn't have to do with infringement).
  
  --
  Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
30. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 06:51 · Score: 0
  
  Ok. That is so cool. :-)
31. Re:Wikileaks link by dissy · 2009-09-21 06:55 · Score: 1
  
  Since AFAIK TI doesn't sell copyrighted software that is protected by DRM
  Selling software is not a requirement for copyright protection, nor for copyright limits to kick in when someone wishes to distribute it.
  In that case, TI most certainly does distribute copyrighted and DRM protected software.
  This whole project is specifically for brute forcing the encryption keys that DRM uses.
  As BS as the DMCA is as a law, this sadly falls squarely under that law as a violation.
  Personally, due to the fact I feel the DMCA is an immoral and unconstitutional law, I always ignore it. I just don't care. But might as well let the ISP/hosting provider have the paperwork filed so they can tell these people to fuck off and talk to a judge instead.
32. Re:Wikileaks link by PCM2 · 2009-09-21 07:00 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  The TI-89 has better numeric capabilities, great graphing ability, and a nice display. It can also run for months on a single pair of AA batteries.
  Actually, the TI-89 uses four AAA batteries, but the point is made.
  Also, many colleges and standardized tests require students to use calculators rather than other devices because they are (at least nominally) limited to calculation. So far, at least, you can't surf Wikipedia for answers on a calculator. The TI-92 calculator is actually forbidden by some tests, despite the fact that it's functionally equivalent to the TI-89, because it has a QWERTY keyboard, which makes it a "computer."
  
  --
  Breakfast served all day!
33. Re:Wikileaks link by Khashishi · 2009-09-21 07:03 · Score: 1
  
  It's cheaper and more palatable to the public to just sign a treaty with them.
34. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 07:29 · Score: 0
  
  > it also qualifies TI for perjury charges for deliberately making a false DMCA claim
  The only part of a DMCA notice which is made under penalty of perjury is the statement that the sender is acting on behalf of the copyright owner.
  So long as the person sending the notice is acting on behalf of TI, no law is being broken. It doesn't matter whether the claims of copyright infringement are valid.
  More generally, perjury only applies to statements of fact (testimony). A claim of copyright infringement is merely a claim, not testimony, and cannot be made under penalty of perjury.
35. Re:Wikileaks link by mckinleyn · 2009-09-21 07:30 · Score: 1
  
  Here are the keys, sorry for the long post:
  
  TI-83 (Plus):
  
  n=82EF4009ED7CAC2A5EE12B5F8E8AD9A0
  AB9CC9F4F3E44B7E8BF2D57A2F2BEACE
  83424E1CFF0D2A5A7E2E53CB926D61F3
  47DFAA4B35B205B5881CEB40B328E58F
  p=B709D3A0CD2FEC08EAFCCF540D8A100BB38E5E091D646ADB7B14D021096FFCD
  q=B7207BD184E0B5A0B89832AA68849B29EDFB03FBA2E8917B176504F08A96246CB
  d=4D0534BA8BB2BFA0740BFB6562E843C7
  EC7A58AE351CE11D43438CA239DD9927
  6CD125FEBAEE5D2696579FA3A3958FF4FC54C685EAA91723BC8888F292947BA1
  e=11
36. Re:Wikileaks link by mckinleyn · 2009-09-21 07:31 · Score: 1
  
  And more: (filter hates long strings)
  TI-84 (Plus):
  
  prp77 factor: 67070508990537181066342707695603050521324524613874331879259881495826493920589
  prp78 factor: 186923771200711284770368041572205320486346816476524340240220962467860568859381
  
  n=EF5FEF0B0AB6E22731C17539658B2E91E53A59BF8E00FCC81D05758F26C1791CD35AF6101B1E35
  43AC3E78FD8BB8F37FC8FE85601C502EABC9132CEAD4711CB1
  p=94489014C63CC9E1E1ADB192DBBDD1F78F90A630DA9C86EFC4CBCA44E5B4D54D
  q=19D431AF2794229620B884E3750D622D1C74F2E4569DC15486FC8D5A3BCDFE2F5
  d=2A3E1B2010F318D9BD7C7E19300980B055A0E2A9554B77E7142E23CDF7C7CA13C233A3D462FDFC
  968B1F9CEAF2AC2CF305147992AD9E834192ACEBB517DB9941
  e=11
37. Re:Wikileaks link by mckinleyn · 2009-09-21 07:33 · Score: 1
  
  Yet again (curse you, lameness filter):
  
  TI-89:
  
  prp76 factor: 2231124525637629443181963045297394875 (lameness filter remove this) 470510167130210300957267082210173784611
  prp79 factor: 32268855342401474150182483974101012 (lameness filter remove this) 86362761128614350056368675111071170873486957
  
  (these are factors of 719958345686847736367204386511 (lameness filter remove this) 6047229712788448020653515684 (lameness filter remove this) 330784137805088971433273011970552138 (lameness filter remove this) 960583799368215373582308591928985045059261105298431035818727)
38. Re:Wikileaks link by izomiac · 2009-09-21 07:36 · Score: 1
  
  I'd be amused if the calculator itself was used to factor the key. Then it becomes a copyright circumvention tool, and thus illegal if TI wanted to make a DMCA claim. (Not that such a thing would pan out in real life given lawyers, but I can still pretend for the sake of amusement.)
39. Re:Wikileaks link by geminidomino · 2009-09-21 07:48 · Score: 1
  
  You don't know offhand if the TI89 can calculate gamma values, do you? (I don't have my manual handy)
40. Re:Wikileaks link by dgatwood · 2009-09-21 07:49 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  No, this likely falls completely and totally outside that law. This project is not about brute forcing crypto keys used to prevent decrypting the firmware. AFAIK, the firmware and apps are not encrypted. This project is about brute forcing keys used to SIGN firmware. The only time a signature is covered by the DMCA is if it is used to prevent people from using illegal copies of software that for some technical reason could not be copied with such a signature (e.g. game titles installed on a hard drive). Since no TI-83+ hardware is EVER sold without a copy of their firmware, such an argument is moot. Anyone with access to the hardware also has a legally licensed copy of the firmware. Therefore, the signature does not prevent people from obtaining copies of the firmware illegally in any useful way, and as such, is not a copyright protection mechanism under the DMCA.
  In short, unless TI uses DRM software resident in their firmware to protect OTHER titles from copying, this clearly falls WELL outside the realm of the DMCA. Bear in mind that there are legal precedents for what I'm saying here. Similar cases have been tried in the past (e.g. Lexmark). The courts have consistently ruled that such circumstances are not protected. Now if TI has an app store and sells applications that are coded to your particular calculator in some way, they would have a case. Otherwise, using the DMCA in this way goes way beyond silly.
  
  --
  Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
41. Re:Wikileaks link by dgatwood · 2009-09-21 07:51 · Score: 1
  
  The claim that they are acting on behalf of the copyright holder, however, is in fact false, as hardware is not generally eligible for copyright.
  
  --
  Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
42. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:19 · Score: 0
  
  A. Not necessarily, especially if it reduces the value of the work to the author.
  B. It's applies if those two numbers allow access to protected copyrighted material (due to the anti-circumvention section of the DMCA)
43. Re:Wikileaks link by joebok · 2009-09-21 08:36 · Score: 1
  
  What if you want to live in a world where 2+2=5? I think you'd have to do an OS hack for that.
44. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 09:10 · Score: 0
  
  you said treaty, when you actually mean Articles of surrender.
  Any country that bends over for my countries bully tactics surrendered without a fight. What a bunch of wimpy cowards.
45. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 09:35 · Score: 0
  
  I thought this sounded a little dubious initially, but it appears to be totally correct. Consider the actual TI takedown notice:
  
  http://pastebin.com/f23af06b7 is distributing or providing links to information that bypasses TIâ(TM)s anti-circumvention technology. By providing copies of or offering links to such information, http://pastebin.com/f23af06b7 has violated the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA at 17 U.S.C. ÂÂ 1201(a)(2) and 1201(b)(1).
  Now let us look at of the DMCA:
  
  (2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, thatâ"
  (A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
  (B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
  (C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that personâ(TM)s knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.
  (b)(1) is almost identically worded. The key phrase seems to be a work protected under this title. Now, the hardware of the calculator is not protected by copyright, and the digital signing does absolutely nothing to protect their OS. The notice says:
  
  The TI-83 Plus, TI-84 Plus and TI-89 operating systems use encryption to effectively control access to the operating system code and to protect its rights as a copyright owner in that code.
  But that seems to be the opposite of what the encryption does, and as as the parent points out, this very point of law was decided against the DMCA invoker (Lexmark) in Lexmark v. SCC. SCC not only copied a checksum, but also the entirety of the Lexmark ink cart firmware. The court initially decided that they would have been protected under the DMCA except that the firmware was under copyright, but on appeal the decision was reversed in SCC's favor on a number of counts. However, in this case it seems that even the original court (that ruled for Lexmark) would not be able to find for TI, because it was not necessary to copy TI software in order to reverse engineer TI's private key, and the key itself is not protected by copyright. The TI digital signing has no substantial purpose but to prevent interoperability (with 3rd part OSes), so TI is (likely) legally SOL (but IANAL).
46. Re:Wikileaks link by bigngamer92 · 2009-09-21 09:53 · Score: 1
  
  Wow, +5 Insightful. I really do fear for this nation I live in.
  
  --
  Common Sense
47. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 10:00 · Score: 0
  
  Please recall that the DMCA was used to clobber many a website publishing the CSS and AACS (DVD and Blu-Ray) encryption keys. Those keys are one number in length, each.
  For that matter, any computer program on the planet is ultimately just a rather long number: ZIP the file, hex dump it, convert the hex into one very long decimal number. Easily reversible.
48. Re:Wikileaks link by TrentTheThief · 2009-09-21 10:15 · Score: 1
  
  You are both perceptive and inquisitive.
  You will go far, provided you do not anger the gods of IT.
49. Re:Wikileaks link by cbhacking · 2009-09-21 10:24 · Score: 1
  
  The concept of using signed binaries on a calculator seems more than a little whacked to begin with. I mean, I suppose the TI-89 (and maybe the 83, although its hardware is far less impressive) has the ability to do asymmetric crypto, but why bother?
  
  --
  There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
50. Re:Wikileaks link by Carnildo · 2009-09-21 10:25 · Score: 1
  
  You mean where they get caught distributing weaponse of maths instruction?
  
  --
  "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
51. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 11:21 · Score: 0
  
  The DMCA doesn't protect hardware in the U.S., either. Since AFAIK TI doesn't sell copyrighted software that is protected by DRM, this is clearly not a DMCA violation
  IIRC, Lexmark printers used chips that monitored toner use and told the printer to stop printing when the cartridge was "empty. Third parties refilled the cartridges and put in chips with the same (non-copyrighted) code.
  So Lexmark "encrypted" (ROT13, anyone?) their code so they could use the DMCA hammer on anyone who copied it. As far as I know, they were successful.
52. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 11:41 · Score: 0
  
  Can your iPhone symbolically solve second-order differential equations AND run for a year on a set of 4 AA's? My TI-89 ($8 at a garage sale) lasted me from Algebra I in middle school all the way up to my first Diff Eq course in high school. Of course, my teachers never caught on that I didn't actually know how to do any math and that the TI-89 was doing everything for me ...
53. Re:Wikileaks link by russotto · 2009-09-21 11:54 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  In short, unless TI uses DRM software resident in their firmware to protect OTHER titles from copying, this clearly falls WELL outside the realm of the DMCA.
  
  If I were an evil and nasty copyright lawyer, I could find a DMCA 1201 hook to hang this on. Even if I couldn't get DMCA 1201(a), I could go for DMCA 1201(b)
  
  (1) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that -
  (A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof;
  (B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof; or
  (C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof.
  I'd claim the firmware signing key prevented people from making unauthorized derivative works of the copyrighted TI firmware, by preventing such unauthorized works from running.
  It's a stretch, but the courts (and juries) are sympathetic to big corporations who look like Authority, not eeevil hackers, who look like people trying to weasel around the law.
  Now, the DMCA takedown is a different matter. The keys are (supposedly) randomly generated; they can't possibly be subject to copyright. DMCA 512 covers only regular copyright violations, not DMCA 1201 violations. So the DMCA takedown was bogus.
54. Re:Wikileaks link by beav007 · 2009-09-21 13:19 · Score: 1
  
  What will they do with people outside the US where the DMCA does not apply?
  Get the US government to invade them?
  Or offer them a Free Trade Agreement. Bloody John Howard. Caterpillar-browed bastard.
55. Re:Wikileaks link by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2009-09-21 13:36 · Score: 1
  
  A TI-89 runs on a 68k processor running at 12mHz and it' sbeen around since the early nineties has a better display and number crunching capabilities of a device built in the last two years with a 400mHz ARM processor and a PowerVR 3D chip.
  I'd worry about floating point precision but... IT'S A FREAKING 68K. I know the nSpire is almost out but still...
  
  --
  Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
56. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 13:44 · Score: 0
  
  TI practically has a monopoly on calculators allowed into ACT/SAT and that standard is generally followed by a lot of teachers. Phones, etc can more easily store answers as well as being a distraction.
  This is why TI still charges ~$100 for a calculator with about $5-$10 of parts for the new TI-83's and why the far better TI-89's are only a few bucks more expensive despite better screen and software/capabilities.
57. Re:Wikileaks link by QuoteMstr · 2009-09-21 14:20 · Score: 1
  
  IT'S A FREAKING 68K
  Your point being what, exactly? Newer isn't necessarily better. The TI89 is exactly powerful enough for what it needs to do.
58. Re:Wikileaks link by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2009-09-21 14:35 · Score: 1
  
  Your point being what, exactly? Newer isn't necessarily better. The TI89 is exactly powerful enough for what it needs to do.
  It was, powerful enough. It's now not that great anymore. The only upside to the TI89 is the CAS. 3D rendering is also a joke. It's a simple plane! My PSP's GPU can render this in *real freaking time*. The TI89 has the CPU from the Genesis. TI has a lot of balls charging what it does for the 89.
  
  --
  Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
59. Re:Wikileaks link by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 14:37 · Score: 0
  
  I don't see anything there. Maybe here?
60. Re:Wikileaks link by kabloom · 2009-09-21 15:42 · Score: 1
  
  They sell flash applications for the TI-83+/84, and they do have some kind of DRM that they use to ensure that if you buy a flash app, you can only run it on the calculator you bought it for.
61. Re:Wikileaks link by QuoteMstr · 2009-09-21 16:35 · Score: 1
  
  It was, powerful enough. It's now not that great anymore.
  Why? Has math changed, or merely your expectations?
62. Re:Wikileaks link by Pig+Hogger · 2009-09-21 17:26 · Score: 1
  
  it also qualifies TI for perjury charges for deliberately making a false DMCA claim---not that any attorney general will actually have the guts to make an example of them....
  
  You're in Texas there, boy.
63. Re:Wikileaks link by compro01 · 2009-09-21 19:05 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, Lexmark lost, repeatedly.
  http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/trial-procedure-suits-claims/5150099-1.htmll
  
  --
  upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
64. Re:Wikileaks link by TrentTheThief · 2009-09-21 21:50 · Score: 1
  
  Your are neither perceptive nor inquisitive.
  You will not go far and have angered the IT gods.
  P.S., if you had really, truly looked, you would have seen the mirror.
65. Re:Wikileaks link by alexo · 2009-09-22 07:41 · Score: 1
  
  it also qualifies TI for perjury charges for deliberately making a false DMCA claim
  Has anyone, anywhere was ever brought up on "perjury charges for deliberately making a false DMCA claim"?
66. Re:Wikileaks link by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2009-09-22 08:25 · Score: 1
  
  I have no such things.
  
  --
  Ezekiel 23:20
67. Re:Wikileaks link by rubi · 2009-09-22 12:47 · Score: 1
  
  What will they do with people outside the US where the DMCA does not apply?
  Get the US government to invade them?
  Why invade and have to take charge of the country when they can just pressure your government to do what they want?
68. Re:Wikileaks link by Cal27 · 2009-09-22 14:05 · Score: 1
  
  :While 1
  :Input "",X
  :Disp X+1
  :End
69. Re:Wikileaks link by MrResistor · 2009-09-24 04:10 · Score: 1
  
  The TI-89 is amazing, and I only have the old version. The reason TI can charge so much for their inferior calculators is that most college math teachers know how amazing the TI-89 is and won't allow you to use it. Otherwise, no sane person would spend that amount of money on an 83/84/86.
  
  --
  Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Worst move ever, by Icegryphon · 2009-09-21 03:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

If TI really wants to sell them calculators they would push the hobbyist market more.
Instead they stifle the enthusiast groups, but whatever I never really got into TI programming and hacking anyways.
1. Re:Worst move ever, by qoncept · 2009-09-21 03:41 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I really have to wonder what dope modded the parent post as insightful. Enthusiasts aren't any manufacturer's target audience. There are (say) 10 million kids who need a graphing calculator for college or high school, and (say) 100 that are hacking them. Claiming those few are the key to success is just plain wrong.
  
  --
  Whale
2. Re:Worst move ever, by MBGMorden · 2009-09-21 03:43 · Score: 1
  
  I have to agree. I never got much into writing my own apps for my calculators (which have been predominantly TI - I started on a TI-83 in high school and moved to a TI-89 in college), but man on man did I download and install a lot of community apps. They really added a lot of usefulness to the machine (particularly the TI-83 whose built in feature set was very lacking compared to the TI-89). If those apps weren't available I likely would have looked for a calculator that did have them.
  It's strange too that in these "there's an app for that!" times that TI would be trying to crack down on the 3rd party application community.
  
  --
  "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
3. Re:Worst move ever, by sunking2 · 2009-09-21 03:52 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  This is exactly why they are not a big fan. The reality is there is very little difference hardware wise in the lesser and more expensive models. If all you need to do is upgrade some software to get your cheaper model to behave like the more expensive then TI loses a ton of money. It's all about trying to get people to upgrade to a model with a higher profit margin.
4. Re:Worst move ever, by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:57 · Score: 0
  
  Enthusiasts aren't any manufacturer's target audience.
  Really? What about Parallax?
5. Re:Worst move ever, by evanbd · 2009-09-21 03:58 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Those few calculator hackers (there are a lot more than 100 of them; they're a minority, but not that small a one) aren't just a few users. They're busy writing games and other useful programs. Those programs appear on just about every TI calculator out there, and plenty of people who aren't even remotely enthusiasts or geeks are using them. The enthusiasts have a disproportionate influence on how popular the platform is, because they make it more useful for everyone.
6. Re:Worst move ever, by hardburn · 2009-09-21 04:03 · Score: 1
  
  Those 100 release things that make the calculator more useful to the millions of others.
  TI is in the business of selling calculators, and only makes an OS for it because a calculator this sophisticated without an OS is just a circuit board. If a bunch of hackers wants to make a better OS, it's in TI's best interest to let them.
  
  --
  Not a typewriter
7. Re:Worst move ever, by Jahava · 2009-09-21 04:07 · Score: 1
  
  I really have to wonder what dope modded the parent post as insightful. Enthusiasts aren't any manufacturer's target audience. There are (say) 10 million kids who need a graphing calculator for college or high school, and (say) 100 that are hacking them. Claiming those few are the key to success is just plain wrong.
  There are countless instances where enthusiasts, with or without support from the parent company, have been a source of significant innovation. Smart companies realize this and encourage that innovation, both for product advancement and as a vast source of design feedback. Even TI could take some very minimal steps to greatly enable enthusiasts (i.e. release these keys, or just not have them).
  Look only as far as Blizzard Entertainment's Warcraft series for a very vivid example. Enthusiasts built massive tools and communities centered around modifying their games, and Blizzard engaged them and they responded by greatly opening up future releases. DotA started as a map mod and has progressed into its own complete video game. In expansions (and even moreso in new games), Blizzard has identified the enthusiasts' interests and worked to further enable them. Their appreciation of enthusiasts and community has them labeled as a Smart Company in my book.
  If TI were smart, they'd make their calculators as open as possible. There's clearly an interest among the capable, and I'd infer from that a greater interest among the general populous. They could do workshops, partner with schools, market it as "open", and even recruit from the enthusiast base.
  Ultimately, interest is interest; even non-enthusiasts appreciate the work: "Hey, I can load games onto this calculator!"
8. Re:Worst move ever, by Microlith · 2009-09-21 04:17 · Score: 1
  
  Well, aside from the obvious architectural difference separating the TI-82(83,84) and the TI-89(92) lines, there's also varying degrees of internal hardware differences between the models. Even newer revisions of the same calculator can have wildly different hardware (the 83+ for instance has internal flash that the classic 83 lacks entirely.)
  My TI-89 is now 11 years old, I'm fairly sure the most recent 89 revisions are internally different to some degree from the older hardware. The only reason that TI is pissed about this is that it removes total control of the software load of the devices from their hands.
9. Re:Worst move ever, by 0100010001010011 · 2009-09-21 04:18 · Score: 1
  
  Because those '100' other features aren't certified, tested or controlled.
  As someone said above, if you let in a ton of extra features, this won't be certified for use on standardized tests. When I took it the TI-89 was allowed on the SAT.
  Imagine a hacker putting in 100x extra functions which could do almost anything the CPU could handle, including stuff the original TI-89 couldn't do AND that the SAT board doesn't want it to do. Is it TI's fault? Is the student 'cheating'?
  It wouldn't be too hard to create an OSS calculator. One that ran a bare linux and you could hack to your heart's content. Good luck getting it certified for any standardized test.
10. Re:Worst move ever, by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:21 · Score: 0
  
  I really have to wonder what dope modded the parent post as insightful. Enthusiasts aren't any manufacturer's target audience. There are (say) 10 million kids who need a graphing calculator for college or high school, and (say) 100 that are hacking them. Claiming those few are the key to success is just plain wrong.
  It isn't the 100 people hacking them that matter. It's the millions of people that use programs the hackers create. Why do you think Intel dumps money into Moblin etc.?
11. Re:Worst move ever, by 0100010001010011 · 2009-09-21 04:21 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  This isn't about 3rd party apps. This is about signing for the OS.
  TI doesn't care what programs you write, in assembly OR TI-Basic. They do care if you overwrite their OS.
12. Re:Worst move ever, by qoncept · 2009-09-21 04:22 · Score: 1
  
  What makes them so smart? Is TI selling more calculators because you can play games on them, or because some kid has to buy one to do his homework? I had a TI-85 in high school and played games all through whatever math class I was in at the time, but I would have had one regardless of whether it did anything other than my homework.
  
  --
  Whale
13. Re:Worst move ever, by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:30 · Score: 0
  
  Why the hell do you need ANY calculator on ANY test? To push buttons? WTF?
  Real math requires no calculator. Heck, even most arithmetic in math is "int(x**2+yx+3,dx)" or solve x*y+x=y for x. That's what I would expect they have on some SAT math exam.
  Mathematicians use graphing software to illustrate things or to get a quick feel for a function. But I have yet to see any prof using a graphing calculator. It is just a poor tool when you have Mathematica or Maple available.
  I remember using calculator for exam in high school. It was utterly worthless test though. They may just as well have "keyboarding" on SAT.
14. Re:Worst move ever, by LarrySDonald · 2009-09-21 04:35 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  The point isn't that they're the target market, but that they are somewhat useful and completely harmless. I hacked on every calculator I used (you have to do something while watching the dry as paint lectures and they're an allowed tool in school. Hey, perhaps I do think this English lecture needs some mathematical analysis, who are you to judge?) and I have no earthly idea how exploring their deeper workings did any harm at all to the maker. Also, this is the group that will (I've noticed) be asked what calculator you should buy. I bought all that were allowed in school pretty much, so that won't help you, but I was also the go to guy for 20 and by extension hundreds for "Ok, so what's the deal here? What should I buy?". It's crazy. I'm not sure what they're trying to prevent. They sell hardware and pretty much that only. They're not razorblade - they charge full price for the hardware they sell. What's the point in even trying to prevent people from doing what they feel like with it? Of course they have certain amounts of right to do so, just as we have every right to not buy their crappy locked down platforms, but it's hard to see where alienating the enthusiasts, which by secondary steps will alienate a ton more who asked them "So what about TI?" and got the answer "Assholes sued me for trying to write a better point graph fitter. Don't buy it" while gaining nothing useful.
15. Re:Worst move ever, by PotatoFarmer · 2009-09-21 04:37 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  In expansions (and even moreso in new games), Blizzard has identified the enthusiasts' interests and worked to further enable them. Their appreciation of enthusiasts and community has them labeled as a Smart Company in my book.
  It's ironic that you use Blizzard as your example here, given that their response to bnetd established the precedent of using the DMCA to shut down reverse engineering.
16. Re:Worst move ever, by hedwards · 2009-09-21 04:40 · Score: 1
  
  Really, that's funny because who is it that implements software that the manufacturer didn't think of or didn't want to spend time on? It's kind of an odd statement to make, because having a thriving enthusiast community is something which sells an awful lot of units. People tend to be pretty jaded about certain things like marketing, having enthusiasts to make the recommendations and help out new owners is a pretty significant resource to have.
17. Re:Worst move ever, by UncleTogie · 2009-09-21 04:40 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  TI doesn't care what programs you write, in assembly OR TI-Basic. They do care if you overwrite their OS.
  Funny, I don't remember agreeing to a EULA when I first opened the box and powered it up. Their right to ANYthing concerning their equipment ended when I bought it.
  
  --
  Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
18. Re:Worst move ever, by sexconker · 2009-09-21 04:40 · Score: 1
  
  The testing board is retarded for allowing any calculators.
  I've taken the SAT (and various SAT 2 tests, mainly the math and sciency ones).
  1: Who the fuck needs a calculator for that shit?
  2: If you DO need a calculator for that shit, STOP. Go directly to 1st grade. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.
19. Re:Worst move ever, by BrokenHalo · 2009-09-21 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  If TI were smart, they'd make their calculators as open as possible.
  
  Well, TI are not smart. For instance, I can see absolutely no logical reason why they have to restrict sale of their external QWERTY keyboard to US/Canada only. It's not as if it's ground-breaking or innovative technology. TI are just being bloody-minded for the sake of it when it would be to their commercial advantage to sell as many units as possible.
20. Re:Worst move ever, by Jahava · 2009-09-21 04:48 · Score: 4, Interesting
  What makes them so smart? Is TI selling more calculators because you can play games on them, or because some kid has to buy one to do his homework? I had a TI-85 in high school and played games all through whatever math class I was in at the time, but I would have had one regardless of whether it did anything other than my homework.
  My stance on the subject is that TI would stand to benefit financially to one degree or another from any and all of the following:
  
  Enthusiasts who prefer TI calculators because they are easier to explore
  Increased interest in a TI calculator because an enthusiast has built software for it that doesn't exist on other calculators
  Increased overall interest in TI calculators due to available software
  Increased quality of their product by observing the nature and intent of third-party changes
  Increased usage of their products by third parties (professors, etc.) who have co-opted their functionality into other areas
  Greater competitive edge through direct exposure to user feedback, also by monitoring enthusiast communities
  Increased sales of higher-powered (i.e., more expensive) calculators since they are capable of more resource-intensive modifications than the lower models
  Classes they can sell to schools about modifying their calculators
  Literature that they can sell on the subject of modifying their products
  Identification of quality persons from the enthusiast community for future hire
  This is off the top of my head. As one who participated in the ticalc.org modding community when it was all Z-shell and assembly hacks, I can say for sure that I benefited from third-party applications and learned quite a lot by programming low-level software. A lot has changed since then, but I can attest firsthand to the benefits of an open TI calculator.
  Really, though, what does TI have to lose? Has the enthusiast community as it stands actually harmed them? If so, I'm not aware of it.
21. Re:Worst move ever, by Hatta · 2009-09-21 05:11 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Personally, I'm appalled that kids are still using the TI-83, and it still costs about $100. I used a TI-83 in high school, almost 15 years ago, and it cost $100 back then too. Haven't we had any advances in calculator technology since then?
  Someone needs to get the DOJ on these guys for anti-trust violations. This is clear evidence of an abusive monopoly.
  
  --
  Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
22. Re:Worst move ever, by hot+soldering+iron · 2009-09-21 05:13 · Score: 1
  
  If it looks and acts like a certified calculator, the testers won't know. All you would have to do is replace the circuit board in the case, and vuala! Stealth computer!
  I know, I know, "All you would have to do ...." It's a lot easier said than done, but still not THAT hard to do. And if engineering students are involved, it's liable to happen. :)
  
  --
  When you want something built, come see me. If you want correct grammar and spelling, get a F*ing liberal arts student.
23. Re:Worst move ever, by Svartalf · 2009-09-21 05:23 · Score: 1
  
  The concern in question is a legitimate one, but not one that is actually and honestly covered by the DMCA or any of the other laws on the books that I am aware of. If TI's going to be worried about that concern, they need to go about it in a completely differing manner than this one. It's not really going to fly and it's earning them enemies in the process.
  Moreover, I question the need for a calc at an SAT or ACT test in the first place. My (admittedly ancient...) recollection of the sorts of questions on the test were not calculation but rather comprehension and mathematical reasoning problems. They were of the sort that once you followed through the word problem (which is what a good half or more was...) you could do the problem on a scratch pad of paper in no time flat.
  
  --
  I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
24. Re:Worst move ever, by QuantumRiff · 2009-09-21 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  Exactly, only a few thousand iPhone users would be "enthusiasts", so obviously they are not apples target audience? That the millions of real users just need a phone? I am flat out claiming that the small number of enthusiasts are the keys to success.
  
  --
  
  What are we going to do tonight Brain?
25. Re:Worst move ever, by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 05:38 · Score: 1
  
  Because those '100' other features aren't certified, tested or controlled.
  So? All TI has to do is explicilty state on the box "We only support the TI OS. Use other OSes at your own risk." They're free and clear, and the great majority of users aren't going to install a different OS anyway.
  As for other apps, well, people can already distribute tons of apps, whether or not you're running TI's OS, and TI doesn't seem to care about that.
26. Re:Worst move ever, by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 05:48 · Score: 1
  
  Speaking as a mathematician with Mathematica, Maple, Matlab, and an HP 50g at my fingertips, I always reach for the HP first for any problem I don't feel like doing on paper. Partly because I am in applied math, basically any symbolic problem I need to do can be handled by my HP, and the user interface is far superior. (Not to mention the startup time!) For plotting and numerical problems, MATLAB gets almost as much use as the HP due to the size of the problems.
27. Re:Worst move ever, by hardburn · 2009-09-21 06:15 · Score: 1
  
  I remember some trig on the ACT, particularly because I'm pretty sure I got a lot of points off the math section due to forgetting the definitions of sin/cos/tan when I took the test.
  Problems with my memory aside, you're definitely going to want a calculator for those sections. Unless you want to provide a table of sin/cos/tan values like the old days (which have disappeared precisely because calculators are better at the same job).
  
  --
  Not a typewriter
28. Re:Worst move ever, by MBGMorden · 2009-09-21 06:52 · Score: 1
  
  I'm with you in general direction, but I'm not sure you could claim that TI has a monopoly. A majority of the market yes, but HP still commands a sizeable chunk of the market too. There's also the Casio graphing calculators as well. I got one of those a few years back just because they were on clearance for $15 and I figured "what the hell, I'll give it a shot". I've not learned much more than basic math on the thing, but from asking around I've heard from most people that the Casio's in general do pretty decent (and even before clearance deals they're often much cheaper than HP's or TI's) - it's just that very, very few people know the UI so if you buy one you're on your own to figure it out. That was the case in school with students who wanted to use HP's too, but the HP's have a much better/bigger online community than the Casios.
  There's also graphing calcs out for the iPhone/iPod Touch as well that I've found interesting.
  http://www.iphone-calc.com/wp/?page_id=67
  It would never be allowed in an academic environment, but for myself, though I rarely need a graphing calculator these days, I'm certainly my likely to have my iPod with me than my TI89 :).
  
  --
  "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
29. Re:Worst move ever, by Hatta · 2009-09-21 06:59 · Score: 1
  
  it's just that very, very few people know the UI so if you buy one you're on your own to figure it out. That was the case in school with students who wanted to use HP's too, but the HP's have a much better/bigger online community than the Casios.
  In a lot of places you are simply not allowed to use anything other than the required TI calculator. I don't know what kind of deal TI has with these companies, but if it's not illegal it should be.
  
  --
  Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
30. Re:Worst move ever, by Monkeedude1212 · 2009-09-21 07:39 · Score: 1
  
  Claiming those few are the key to success is just plain wrong.
  You'd be surprised. IPhone, Facebook, the Steam Community, Blizzard Games, one could argue that a major part in their success was having available tools for the developer community to create new content.
  Developers can be an untapped resource in many cases. When someone comes along with a great Idea and implements it through your work - it only increases the value of your product. Guess how much you paid that Hobbyist?
  The only reason to lock this kind of activity out is for security reasons.
  I wasn't aware TI was under any kind of security threat, least not with their calculators.
31. Re:Worst move ever, by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:21 · Score: 0
  
  If it looks and acts like a certified calculator, the testers won't know. All you would have to do is replace the circuit board in the case, and vuala! Stealth computer!...
  I've heard of someone putting the guts of a ti-89 into the shell of a ti-83...
32. Re:Worst move ever, by Zerth · 2009-09-21 08:52 · Score: 1
  
  Heck, you don't even have to go that far if an 86 is okay, just swap out the purple ALPHA button and rub off the 9 on the screen, most TAs go by color from a distance.
33. Re:Worst move ever, by Alarindris · 2009-09-21 13:20 · Score: 1
  
  So the price went down.
  
  What cost $100 in 1994 would cost $143.47 in 2008.
  
  Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2008 and 1994, they would cost you $100 and $70.51 respectively.
  
  http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
34. Re:Worst move ever, by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 14:28 · Score: 0
  
  > Has the enthusiast community as it stands actually harmed them?
  On one occasion, yes -- remember the ticalc.org CD recall fiasco? This might have been the "last straw" that turned them against the enthusiast community forever.
So a bunch of... by mrboyd · 2009-09-21 03:35 · Score: 0, Offtopic

"So a bunch of".. really? I don't expect the summaries to be worth a Pulitzer but that's pretty low even for slashdot.
1. Re:So a bunch of... by FlyingBishop · 2009-09-21 04:10 · Score: 1
  
  It's a colloquialism. Deal with it. Contrary to popular belief, abstract, proper grammar has nothing to do with content or literary value. Now, there are awkward constructions, and there are incorrect usages, but this is a pretty standard colloquialism that in no way obscures the meaning of the text.
2. Re:So a bunch of... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:22 · Score: 0
  
  I just get sick of people starting every sentence with "So."
3. Re:So a bunch of... by UncleTogie · 2009-09-21 04:44 · Score: 1
  
  So?
  
  --
  Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 drivers? by gblues · 2009-09-21 03:35 · Score: 3, Interesting

Texas Instruments makes damn fine graphing calculators, but would it be so hard to write a damn x64 driver? I can't use the USB interface with either my home PC or my laptop because both are running x64 (7 Pro on the desktop, Vista Home Premium on the laptop). And I'll be damned if I go back to 32 bits just to make the calculator happy.
I did googling and didn't find anything existing; has anyone tackled writing a homebrew x64 USB driver? I think all the information needed is already out there, but I don't have the time/motivation to write the driver myself (especially having never written a driver before).
Streisand Effect by quanticle · 2009-09-21 03:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

You'd have thought that Texas Instruments would have learned when the Blu-Ray consortium tried to stop the spread of the '09 F9 ...' key.

--
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
1. Re:Streisand Effect by spinkham · 2009-09-21 03:47 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  And just in case you forget how badly that went down, here's a reminder...
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSQIoXf294E
  
  --
  Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
2. Re:Streisand Effect by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:52 · Score: 0
  
  Some parts of that video are very easy to watch...
3. Re:Streisand Effect by EkriirkE · 2009-09-21 04:29 · Score: 1
  
  What?
  
  --
  from 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 to 45 2F 6E 40 3C DF 10 71 4E 41 DF AA 25 7D 31 3F
4. Re:Streisand Effect by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:36 · Score: 0
  
  You'd have thought that Texas Instruments would have learned when the Blu-Ray consortium tried to stop the spread of the '09 F9 ...' key.
  Exactly. And what's more, the "spread it all everywhere" strategy may be what runs the DMCA up against the constitutional limits: A decryption key in a DVD ripper may be an illegal circumvention device, but the same key posted on the top of every blog in the world is protected political speech in opposition to the prohibition of circumvention devices. The bloggers and their readers aren't using it to decrypt DVDs, merely to make a statement about the law, which means it's hardly a circumvention device anymore and any attempt to prohibit what they're doing is an abridgment of political speech. But that makes the prohibition on distributing the key in circumvention devices totally meaningless because anyone who wants the key has a billion and one places to get it.
5. Re:Streisand Effect by hansamurai · 2009-09-21 05:29 · Score: 1
  
  Thought you would have learned too... that it was HD-DVD, and not Blu-Ray.
  
  --
  Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
6. Re:Streisand Effect by beelsebob · 2009-09-21 07:27 · Score: 1
  
  Not forgetting this little beauty...
  http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Steganography
Exactly. by zippthorne · 2009-09-21 03:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

If they want to be as successful as HP calculators, they need to do more to encourage more enthusiasts...

--
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
1. Re:Exactly. by plague911 · 2009-09-21 03:40 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  They are more successful than HP calculators. As a MS/Phd engineering student I haven't seen a HP calculator in 6 years except at a store.
2. Re:Exactly. by schnikies79 · 2009-09-21 03:52 · Score: 1
  
  In my 4 years of undergrad and beyond (started as a EE major and switched to chemistry), I never saw a HP calc.
  
  --
  Gone!
3. Re:Exactly. by Hadlock · 2009-09-21 03:58 · Score: 1
  
  I once saw an HP calc in the discount bin at office depot. Buried deep, under a pile of rubbish, scrawled on the back in angry sharpie it read:
  
  Not a TI-83!
  
  I left it there and went to find a TI calc
  
  --
  moox. for a new generation.
4. Re:Exactly. by Curmudgeonlyoldbloke · 2009-09-21 04:08 · Score: 1
  
  Hang on - it's 2009 and we're still arguing about calculators? Has this been going on since before the Amiga / Atari stuff?
  (Comptometer ftw!)
5. Re:Exactly. by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 04:13 · Score: 1
  
  Students still need calculators, and handheld technology is progressing as fast as ever. Graphing calculators these days are just low-end pdas with keyboards and smaller screens. If anything, it's easier for graphing calculators to differentiate themselves these days. For example, HP's graphing calculators include ARM processors and SD slots while TI is still using 68k and Z80. On the other hand, the TI-89 has a much higher resolution screen than any HP.
6. Re:Exactly. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:23 · Score: 0
  
  Real engineers who do daily calcs use HP.
  Take a look at pawnshops, only the TI crap gathers dust there. No one sells their precious HP's.
7. Re:Exactly. by BrokenHalo · 2009-09-21 04:35 · Score: 1
  
  As a MS/Phd engineering student I haven't seen a HP calculator in 6 years except at a store.
  
  I used to have a HP48G+ until it let me down too many times in various exams and other assessments over the first 2 years of my biotech degree. I really preferred the RPN input and really liked the firm, clicky buttons with the nice big fat "enter" key right under the index finger where it belongs.
  
  I replaced it with a TI-89 which has been good, in that it is much faster. In some ways it's much more powerful, e.g. it does implicit differentiation and integration by parts if I want, amongst a host of other things. But if only I could depend on the HP I would still prefer it despite its deficiencies in functionality.
8. Re:Exactly. by sexconker · 2009-09-21 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  Students have never needed calculators to learn math.
  And they never will.
  Oh, you're talking about the STUPID students.
  Carry on.
  If I were to teach a math class at any level, there would be no calculators of any sort allowed.
9. Re:Exactly. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:40 · Score: 0
  
  Let me guess, you are a windows user?
10. Re:Exactly. by virtualXTC · 2009-09-21 04:42 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I still have my HP48G (sitting right in front of me). I can't stand working with non-RPN calcuators.
11. Re:Exactly. by Rob+the+Bold · 2009-09-21 04:45 · Score: 1
  
  In my 4 years of undergrad and beyond (started as a EE major and switched to chemistry), I never saw a HP calc.
  That's really sad. But from the looks of those on the HP website, I can see why. Some don't even have an Enter key. Most look like they're something else that's been re-badged "HP", except for the 35s which seems to have gone the new Mustang/Challenger/Camero/Mini Cooper route. The rest look as toy-like as the TIs.
  
  --
  I am not a crackpot.
12. Re:Exactly. by clone53421 · 2009-09-21 04:50 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  If I were to teach a math class at any level, there would be no calculators of any sort needed.
  That's how the good ones teach, anyway. A calculator would have been of very little help in most of the no-calculator exams I took. It was more useful on the homework, but you still had to show your work.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
13. Re:Exactly. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:50 · Score: 0
  
  How far did you get in EE? My school did not let the first year EE students use calculators at all!
  By 4th year though a good calc was absolutely necessary. Most of us who could afford it at an HP48GX.
14. Re:Exactly. by Khyber · 2009-09-21 05:01 · Score: 1
  
  Yea, as if you're going to do astrophysical calculations by hand.
  Give me a fucking break.
  
  --
  Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
15. Re:Exactly. by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 05:12 · Score: 1
  
  Any decent math curriculum is going to require students to occasionally move beyond symbolic manipulation and use some concrete numbers. It is necessary for students to generally know what numbers to expect to come out of the square root, logarithm, and trigonometric functions. However, asking students to use slide rules and to look up values in tables on a regular basis is a cruel waste of their time.
16. Re:Exactly. by amoeba1911 · 2009-09-21 05:22 · Score: 1
  
  My HP48GX was stolen when I was in college. I was almost done with school so I couldn't justify buying another one with my college money.
  Luckily, I found an HP48 emulator for the Android. It's the next best thing even though it doesn't have infrared or sound like the real thing.
17. Re:Exactly. by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 05:43 · Score: 1
  
  The 35 is the only true HP style scientific calculator they are making right now, but the 50g is most definitely an HP on the inside, even though the keyboard is barely above TI quality. From my experience, the only advantage the TI 89 has over the HP 50g for a college student or professional is a higher resolution screen.
18. Re:Exactly. by zippthorne · 2009-09-21 05:56 · Score: 1
  
  I wouldnt' do astrophysical calculations on a graphing calculator either. That's what Matlab, Maple, Mathematica, Fortran, etc. are for.
  All of those tools are better than a graphing calculator in every way except one: they're slightly less portable. Very slightly. If you're at a conference, you've got a laptop handy. Only a student in a classroom could possibly require a machine as portable (and capable) as a graphing calculator any more, and then only if the instructor didn't see fit to run the class in a computer lab on the days that computers are needed.
  
  --
  Can you be Even More Awesome?!
19. Re:Exactly. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 06:10 · Score: 0
  
  I left it there and went to find a TI calc
  When I was in college (about 5 years ago), I still saw people with HPs on occasion. I myself, would never use anything except an HP. It still made me laugh that people with inferior calculators (TIs) would be astounded by what an HP could do. The TI-89 is okay, but the TI-83 can't even come close to my HP 48g. I purchased it in 1997, and it still beats anything TI makes (except in processing speed).
  I can't believe anyone on Slashdot would actually advocate for a TI... Where are the real nerds?
20. Re:Exactly. by klapaucjusz · 2009-09-21 06:14 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Hang on - it's 2009 and we're still arguing about calculators?
  Vi sucks.
21. Re:Exactly. by sexconker · 2009-09-21 07:39 · Score: 1
  
  I agree - there's no reason for tedious lookups or calculation. But you need to know how to do them.
  Coursework and tests should use nice round numbers that play nice, or have the necessary information (log of X is Y, etc.) included.
  And there's nothing wrong with slide rules - they help you visualize the scale - far more useful than a table or a calculator.
22. Re:Exactly. by sexconker · 2009-09-21 07:41 · Score: 1
  
  If I were teaching a class, my exercises would have nice round numbers and relevant information provided.
  You're required to show your work anyway.
23. Re:Exactly. by sexconker · 2009-09-21 07:45 · Score: 1
  
  If you let them have a calculator, they will:
  Play games
  Cheat during tests
  Think less about the process and more about the result
  I'm talking all the way from K-12 and into college.
  If a kid slaps F(x) = x^3 into a calculator, they see a fun little graph.
  If you give them some graph paper and a pencil, they get a messy little graph and a lot of learnin' after a much longer time.
  The time invested is very much worth the extra understanding.
  Having them then graph x^3 + 5, X^3 -5, X^3 + 2x, etc. etc. labeling all the fun little points and lines is a complete waste of time.
24. Re:Exactly. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 07:52 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah man...pico rules!
25. Re:Exactly. by treeves · 2009-09-21 08:13 · Score: 1
  
  How did it let you down? I used to love HP calculators and had several. I still have a 41CX and a 48SX but I don't use handheld calculators anymore.
  
  --
  ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
26. Re:Exactly. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:44 · Score: 0
  
  Vi sucks.
  
  Oh yeah? Well emacs blows.
27. Re:Exactly. by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2009-09-21 10:04 · Score: 1
  
  Hang on - it's 2009 and we're still arguing about calculators? Has this been going on since before the Amiga / Atari stuff?
  (Comptometer ftw!)
  Goes back to when Ogg and Trogg argued over the relative merits of charcoal or clay pigment for doing calculations on the cave wall. As technology progressed, the merits of flint vs rubbing sticks for starting fires become the next flame war.
  
  --
  I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
28. Re:Exactly. by zippthorne · 2009-09-21 10:48 · Score: 1
  
  Whatever deficiencies the 48G+ had were more than satisfied by the good folks at http://www.hpcalc.org/
  
  --
  Can you be Even More Awesome?!
29. Re:Exactly. by Omniscient+Ferret · 2009-09-21 13:12 · Score: 1
  
  As technology progressed, the merits of flint vs rubbing sticks for starting fires become the next flame war.
  I see what you did there.
30. Re:Exactly. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 17:45 · Score: 0
  
  You forgot the "Get off my lawn" part.
31. Re:Exactly. by BrokenHalo · 2009-09-21 18:23 · Score: 1
  
  How did it let you down?
  
  It had a habit of randomly rebooting itself, or worse, locking up in such a way that swapping batteries and the other hard-reset techniques didn't work reliably. And of course, when I did finally get the machine to work, all my userland software would be gone and I'd have to restore it from backup.
  
  I had to be really careful about lending the HP48 to anybody; since not everyone "gets" RPN straight away, attempts to use the machine like an algebraic device also tended to cause lockups.
  
  Maybe my calculator was just a dud, but I just didn't need the hassle when I was already under pressure in assessments, so it had to go. The TI-89, despite its faults, has at least been 100% reliable.
32. Re:Exactly. by Rob+the+Bold · 2009-09-22 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  After seeing that god-awful HP-33, I did a little research into recent HP calculators. Looks like the 50g is actually an ARM powered device that emulates the Saturn processor so it's code compatible but faster and more modern. It also looks like HP has been farming out not just manufacture but also development of its pocket calculators to Kinpo (who also makes Citizen calculators) for at least 10 years. That kind of bums me out, that the only thing HP is contributing is the logo. I choose to blame Carly, since it's her fault that they spun off the test equipment.
  
  --
  I am not a crackpot.
DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by zavyman · 2009-09-21 03:39 · Score: 5, Informative

It's highly unlikely that the factors of an RSA private key are subject to copyright protection. Therefore the groups may have a viable claim for DMCA misrepresentation under subsection (f):

(f) MISREPRESENTATIONS- Any person who knowingly materially misrepresents under this section--
(1) that material or activity is infringing, or
(2) that material or activity was removed or disabled by mistake or misidentification,
shall be liable for any damages, including costs and attorneys' fees, incurred by the alleged infringer, by any copyright owner or copyright owner's authorized licensee, or by a service provider, who is injured by such misrepresentation, as the result of the service provider relying upon such misrepresentation in removing or disabling access to the material or activity claimed to be infringing, or in replacing the removed material or ceasing to disable access to it.
Texas Instruments may just have Diebolded itself.
1. Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by Nursie · 2009-09-21 03:50 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Copyright?
  Wouldn't this be more likely come under the circumvention of cryptographic protection techniques which the DMCA also outlaws?
2. Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:56 · Score: 0
  
  it isn't a matter of copyright protection for the keys. This is "circumvention of a technical control" -- which is allowed, but only if you do it solo and never tell anyone else how you did it or provide them with tools or otherwise enable them to circumvent the technical control.
  The DMCA is a bad law, and not all of it is directly about copyright.
3. Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by zavyman · 2009-09-21 04:03 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Two sections of Title 17 (Copyrights) are relevant. 17 USC 512 (safe harbor) and 17 USC 1201 (anti-circumvention). The notice is styled as one under 17 USC 512:
  
  It has come to our attention that the web site www.brandonw.net, contains material and/or links to material that violate the anti-circumvention provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act ("DMCA"). This letter is to notify you, in accordance with the provisions of the DMCA, of these unlawful activities. Pursuant to the safe harbor provisions of the DMCA, we request that you remove any whole or partial reproductions of and/or disable links to the following:
  ...
  I hereby confirm that I have a good faith belief that use of the Illegal Material in the manner complained of in this letter is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law, that the information in this letter is accurate, and that, under penalty of perjury, I am authorized to act on behalf of TI, the owner of the exclusive rights in the TI-83 Plus operating system software that are allegedly misappropriated using unlawful methods.
  TI appears to be claiming that the copyright in the TI-83 Plus operating system software is infringing. This therefore appears to be a notice under 512(c)(3). Anti-circumvention is a totally different section of the copyright code, 1201. There is no takedown procedure for access control circumvention materials.
  But with regards to anti-circumvention claims: It appears that TI is claiming that the signing keys circumvent a "technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title." This is a term of art.
  
  (A) to "circumvent a technological measure" means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and
  (B) a technological measure "effectively controls access to a work" if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.
  Are signing keys necessary to gain access to the TI 83 Plus operating system binary? As far as I know, no. My understanding is that they are only used to prepare operating system images for installation onto the calculator.
4. Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by Microlith · 2009-09-21 04:06 · Score: 1
  
  Considering these keys do not "effectively control access to a work" I'm sure that while they may try (the DMCA is the be-all and end-all of corporate beatdown sticks, used regardless of merit,) it's doubtful.
  After all, these are signing keys. All they let you do is load a new OS or your own signed applications on the calculator (signed apps are something they've done since the 89 was released back in 1998) and bypass a number of community-developed workarounds to get assembly programs on the calculator, along with the special resources available to such apps.
  TI has no valid DMCA claim here, but they're a GRAND OLE CORPORATION to our government and thus deserve more power and leniency than the average prole.
5. Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by TrentTheThief · 2009-09-21 04:17 · Score: 1
  
  And just in case, I think someone might have placed the keys, here: http://crystalwind.com/index.html
6. Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by Cubeman · 2009-09-21 04:32 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  The keys are not required to access the binary. There is no encryption; the keys are just to verify that the OS image hasn't been corrupted. The entire binary has always been completely accessible from both the PC side (before transferring) as well as on the calculator. Furthermore, the community has had the ability to load its own operating systems on the TI-83 Plus since 2002. TI had stated in 2004 that they had no problem with independent third-party OSes being loaded, as long as (understandably) no one distributed modified TI OS files. The only new development here is that third-party operating systems can now be loaded onto the calculators without any hacks or preparation. In other words, they can be loaded in a user-friendly manner like the TI OS is loaded, and transmitted from calculator-to-calculator without having to run a special program beforehand. This is a huge deal in gaining acceptance for third-party operating systems, because end users do not want to have to pull out a battery during validation or run a strange program before loading the OS. They'd rather just click and be done.
7. Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by Dr_Barnowl · 2009-09-21 19:58 · Score: 1
  
  the keys are just to verify that the OS image hasn't been corrupted
  A CRC or hash would be good enough for that, no cryptographic signature required.
  You only sign binaries to prevent tampering.
  I suspect that TI define "loading software that isn't under our control" as tampering. A lot of this probably has to do with losing the ability to differentiate between models just on the software that is loaded on them.
8. Re:DMCA Misrepresentation claim viable by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-22 15:55 · Score: 0
  
  But with regards to anti-circumvention claims: It appears that TI is claiming that the signing keys circumvent a "technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title." This is a term of art.
  According to 1201, the prohibition against distributing circumvention devices applies only to a "technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof". Would a crypto key qualify?
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Xtravar · 2009-09-21 03:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

1. Get a USB traffic sniffing application
2. Run the TI driver on a Windows XP VM and record the traffic as you transfer files.
3. Write your own driver with libusb-win32 and pray that it works
4. Become hero to the TI community!!!

--
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
Two things. . . by Fantastic+Lad · 2009-09-21 03:45 · Score: 1

This is about calculator keys, right?
That shark jumping thing has just happened. DMCA, please go home now. You're drunk and you're scaring the remaining guest, the family dog and our kids are shuddering in their bedrooms in fear.
Also. . , you want a calculator hack? I'll give you a calculator hack!
Type the following number. . . "07734" on your calculator and then invert the screen for a pleasant surprise!!!!!
(Ooooh, it's so exciting and. . , welcoming!)
-FL
1. Re:Two things. . . by superslacker87 · 2009-09-21 04:13 · Score: 1
  
  I like this one better:
  There as 1 girl.
  She was 16.
  She did a 69.
  3 times.
  Know what she was?
  11669*3=35007
  
  --
  I run Ubuntu skinned to look like a Mac on a PC. Go figure.
2. Re:Two things. . . by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:15 · Score: 0
  
  There as 1 girl.
  She was 16.
  She did a 69.
  3 times.
  Know what she was?
  Inb4 "underage b&"
3. Re:Two things. . . by Megane · 2009-09-21 04:24 · Score: 1
  
  Hooray for the clash of '70s memes with 2k memes!
  Now to figure out a way to mix 710.77345 with Iraq.
  
  --
  #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
4. Re:Two things. . . by adamstew · 2009-09-21 04:46 · Score: 1
  
  I like this one better:
  There was a girl.
  She had 69 boobs.
  She had too, too, too many boobs
  so she went to 51st street to see Doctor "X" 8 times and she came out:
  6922251 X 8 = 55378008
5. Re:Two things. . . by JustOK · 2009-09-21 04:46 · Score: 1
  
  7734.40
  
  --
  rewriting history since 2109
6. Re:Two things. . . by selven · 2009-09-21 04:49 · Score: 1
  
  Real men don't need to turn the calculator upside down... 170085
7. Re:Two things. . . by dissy · 2009-09-21 07:06 · Score: 1
  
  Isn't Moores Law great?
  We went from "58008" upside down, to using the embedded web browser to load porntube :P
8. Re:Two things. . . by Eco-Mono · 2009-09-21 11:18 · Score: 1
  
  Wow. I heard that story from a friend in, like, sixth grade and could only ever remember the last part. Thanks for reposting it.
  
  --
  (rot13) rpbzbab@tznvy.pbz
subterfuge by davidwr · 2009-09-21 03:46 · Score: 5, Funny

Someone in TI's legal dept. who knows what the Streisand Effect is wants these keys publicized.
Well, we can hope that's the reason.

--
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
1. Re:subterfuge by ISoldat53 · 2009-09-21 04:06 · Score: 1
  
  TI made more money in the 80s and 90s on legal action than they did on selling products.
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by whoisisis · 2009-09-21 03:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

Try TiLP 2. Made by said TI-homebrew community.
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by AresTheImpaler · 2009-09-21 03:48 · Score: 3, Informative

Have you tried installing a 32 bit OS on a VM, like say, virtualbox to talk to the calculator? I know it's not exactly what you want, but it might do the trick.....
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:49 · Score: 1, Informative

Unfortunately there is now a step 5:
5. Get defecated on from a great height by TI
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Chris+Mattern · 2009-09-21 03:50 · Score: 1

5. Get sued by TI.
6. ???
7. Profit!
DRM in a calculator? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 03:50 · Score: 5, Funny

I'm shocked to hear that TI is even bothering to sign things. What exactly could be in a calculator that you would want to protect from hackers or end users?
"Oh no, a virus has replaced all my Fourier transforms with Laplace transforms!"
1. Re:DRM in a calculator? by ThePyro · 2009-09-21 04:48 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  One of the reasons that TI signs things is to provide a form of copy protection for the 3rd-party applications which are sold via the online store. The calculator operating system will not run a flash application for which it does not currently have a license. The operating system binary is signed so that you can't tamper with it in order to disable the copy-protection. A modified operating system could potentially run flash applications without a license.
  As far as user-created software goes, TI doesn't really care what you run on the calculator. It's only non-free flash apps that concern them.
2. Re:DRM in a calculator? by ThePyro · 2009-09-21 04:54 · Score: 1
  
  Standardized tests are another reason TI might want complete control over the operating system. If the operating system can be modified then sneaky students could hide all sorts of cheats inside the operating system. Forcing students to clear the memory of their calculators would no longer be sufficient to prevent cheating since information embedded in the OS would not be cleared.
3. Re:DRM in a calculator? by Jesus_666 · 2009-09-21 04:58 · Score: 1
  
  More like: "Oh no, cheating software can be undetectably installed on TI calculators, thus they can't be used in schools and colleges anymore, killing one major source of revenue for TI!"
  
  --
  USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
4. Re:DRM in a calculator? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:34 · Score: 0
  
  I'm not entirely sure that it's DRM, but rather more like a firmware checksum a la MD5SUM so TI can have some control over what's going on. Imagine a subtle math error in some malicious firmware, or just a basic mistake that throws your answers off in certain cases. Boom! Your metric/imperial conversion is off a little and your probe misses a whole planet. Not enough info in the link to be sure.
5. Re:DRM in a calculator? by Schrockwell · 2009-09-21 15:08 · Score: 1
  
  "Oh no, a virus has replaced all my Fourier transforms with Laplace transforms!"
  You'd be surprised. These types of viruses are spreading at higher frequencies. It's only a matter of time.
6. Re:DRM in a calculator? by clone53421 · 2009-09-22 07:10 · Score: 1
  
  Epic!
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
I've just lost... by hj43us · 2009-09-21 03:51 · Score: 1

I've just lost any interest on using/buying any TI calculator. Well done TI lawyers! (Do they covertly work for CASIO?)
1. Re:I've just lost... by cmdpwr · 2009-09-21 04:11 · Score: 1
  
  Casio? Look into the HP 50g. The keyboard is not quite as good as the HP 48GX, but it's much faster. When I was in school, the HP 48 GX wasn't "supported", but I always found that I learned more by figuring things out myself anyway.
2. Re:I've just lost... by ElSupreme · 2009-09-21 04:40 · Score: 1
  
  ++ for the HP50g.
  
  RPN FTW!
  
  --
  My addiction: Arguing with idiots. AKA Slashdot!
3. Re:I've just lost... by ettlz · 2009-09-21 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  RPN FTW!
  And RPL. Probably the best-engineered calculator run-time ever.
4. Re:I've just lost... by Rob+the+Bold · 2009-09-21 04:56 · Score: 1
  
  Casio? Look into the HP 50g. The keyboard is not quite as good as the HP 48GX, but it's much faster. When I was in school, the HP 48 GX wasn't "supported", but I always found that I learned more by figuring things out myself anyway.
  Obviously, I'm getting pretty old here, but what does "supported" mean as you're using it w.r.t. a calculator? Is it like, "here's a problem to solve, and here's the keys to use to solve it, assuming you have a TI-83"? Please tell me I'm wrong.
  
  --
  I am not a crackpot.
5. Re:I've just lost... by Hatta · 2009-09-21 05:18 · Score: 1
  
  TI isn't interested in your business. People who buy TI calculators are forced to by TI calculators by their instructors.
  
  --
  Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
6. Re:I've just lost... by icebrain · 2009-09-21 05:35 · Score: 1
  
  Sort of. If you had the "supported" calculator, the teachers would go over how to use various functions, and walk you through an example problem or two. If you had trouble, they'd help you. They didn't give step-by-step stuff on the tests or anything (which is what I'm assuming you're asking about), but they did tailor some things to the calculator. Often as not, they'd throw out problems which the standardized calculator couldn't do all at once (forcing hand work), but which a higher model could handle.
  However, if you had anything else, you were on your own.
  When I started high school, the TI-83/83+ was standard, except for calculus (which used an HP48, I think). I just used a TI-86 the whole time. It was better than the 83s, and didn't use RPN like the 48 (I don't care how fast it is when you get used to it, the difference is small and it's a lot easier to see what you're doing and catch a mistake on the TI. Oh, and the programs are better).
  I never had the time nor the inclination to mess with asm programming, but wrote plenty of stuff in Ti-Basic... math, physics, and calc apps, druglords clones, a two-player chess game with castling and game-saving, etc. (I also specifically remember trying to put in a primitive form of DRM to keep people from modifying the opening credits on my apps and claming the work for themselves--essentially a convoluted series of gotos and number base transformations intended to confuse the simple search-and-replace types which quit the program if they changed the "written by:" line). Most of us had games and the like. There was one called "squarez" or something; it kind of resembled tetris but was terribly addicting.
  
  --
  The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
7. Re:I've just lost... by KingAlanI · 2009-09-21 12:34 · Score: 1
  
  I recall one class for which the professor standardized on a particular HP model (because that's what he had and what the bookstore had) However, the dang functions/concepts were the same, I figured out things just fine on the similar-function TI I already had (if I didn't have one, I might have gone with the flow and gotten the HP. But damned if I was buying a second...:P
  
  --
  I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Its the usual castle gate mentality by Viol8 · 2009-09-21 03:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

While the TI engineers would probably be happy to share the info, a bunch of management suits still living in the 1960s want to keep everything secret and in-house because they're sure They Know Best as to what everyone wants. Well we all know where this sort of blinkered thinking leads - users eventually just give you the finger and move elsewhere especially if a large part of your core market is the very type of hacker (in the old sense of the word) that they want to stop.
And who are they kidding anyway , these are just fscking calculators! They can't even argue that installing new stuff on them is going to lose them any income anyway. Its not like the average user upgrades his calculator OS every year!
1. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by TheRaven64 · 2009-09-21 04:00 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  The weird thing is that TI is actually quite good about open source support in other divisions. They make OMAP reference platforms available at very reasonable price (BeagleBoard, OMAPzoom) for open source hackers.
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
2. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 04:03 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  The TI calculator division is all about placating teachers and standardized testing agencies. If it's too easy to install custom software in a relatively undetectable fashion, then the calculators won't be approved for testing and classroom use.
  It's not TI that's the control freaks - it's the teachers.
3. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by PPalmgren · 2009-09-21 04:17 · Score: 1
  
  This is exactly what I was thinking. Playing the devil's advocate, I'd be concerned if I worked for TI I'd be concerned about these kinds of situations. They make a killing off of the requirement in schools to use their calculators. When I worked for Staples during back to school season, we'd get a line to the back of the store for 3 days surrounding school starts and over 50% of the line was looking for a TI 83+, so we'd sell hundreds of them a day. I remember large programs 8-9 years ago in high school that had lists of problems with inputs for variables, etc. I doubt it'd be hard to make a program that brings up a screen like the TI83/89 empty program menu, since this is all teachers check for before SATs and the like. As much as I love customizability, if you were in their shoes, would you risk it?
4. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by ElSupreme · 2009-09-21 04:27 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  I had a TI-83 in high school. I wrote tons of programs (although they all just used TI Basic) to do various math functions. I also made a "Memory Cleared" program. I hated clearing all my programs ever 3 weeks when a test came around.
  
  I didn't use pre-made programs during my tests, I did make programs during the tests to do repeat processes. But I got to keep my Drug Wars and Indycar racer games, along with all my other math programs after the test.
  
  --
  My addiction: Arguing with idiots. AKA Slashdot!
5. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by sjdude · 2009-09-21 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  And who are they kidding anyway , these are just fscking calculators!
  Perhaps TI's actions have more to do with what will happen if the calculators, when cracked, are turned into "computers". Due to export restrictions, could it be the cracked machines might violate export controls in places where TI can legally sell them as "just fscking calculators"?
6. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by fermion · 2009-09-21 04:42 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  It is about teachers and standardized testing, and that is one of the reasons why the software in the TI calculator needs to be secure. But it is unlikely the primary reason. Prior to use on test, TI has an application that clear the calculator to essentially factory state. This application only runs from the calculator installed, and cannot be transferred to other calculators. This calculator could be modified to actually reinstall an OS, which would be time consuming, but the safest thing to do for testing. Control freak teachers do run the application. Most don't. Real control freak teachers don't even let students use a calculator because there is nothing a calculator can do that a students should not be able to do faster. It takes more time to put in the equation of a graph or table than to just find the roots or the regression equation by hand. The problem is those middle of the road teachers that have sympathy for the students who can't add two integers, but still want them to, at least in some cases, manipulate variables by hand.
  The desire to keep the code secure is in a fact a desire to insure sales. For instance, the TI application for the computer is not free, and, IIRC, not site licensed. If the ROM were available, like it is on most of the HP calculators, then someone could easily develop an OSS application and make drive TI sales away. I know that some applications are available, but they require a calculator to download the ROM, and the solutions are not as elegant as the HP calculator.
  
  --
  "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
7. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by I'm+not+really+here · 2009-09-21 04:44 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  If it's that much of a concern, why don't the schools have a set of TI calculators that are available for standardized tests? Stagger the testing properly, and you don't actually need one for each student. This way, the student has their own calculator, can do whatever they want with it for homework, etc, but for testing purposes, they are required to use the school's TI hardware and software.
  
  If the school is concerned with the costs involved, I'm sure they could work a deal with TI to receive the "in-class only" calculators for free or at cost. I mean, if you think about it, free (pirated) copies of Windows is the main reason for the success of the Windows operating system... most likely, having easy access to TI calculators in school would get students comfortable with them, and would likely boost TI's market share... it's a win-win situation, and TI can wholeheartedly support the hack/homebrew crowd at the same time without worrying the teachers.
  
  --
  Before commenting on the Bible, please read it first
8. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:46 · Score: 0
  
  Overseas, I bought a TI-83 about ten years ago. It cost about the same a TI-83 "plus" does today.
  Now, I could've been overcharged and there are issues of inflation (exchange rates are fixed) but it seems odd the (often required) calculator for the same complexity of school classes is still at the same price point.
9. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:47 · Score: 0
  
  easy solution: stop letting stupid children use calculators, make them understand mathematics.
10. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:48 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  The TI calculator division is all about placating teachers and standardized testing agencies. If it's too easy to install custom software in a relatively undetectable fashion, then the calculators won't be approved for testing and classroom use.
  It's not TI that's the control freaks - it's the teachers.
  if you can program a machine to solve a problem for you...i say kudos...even if its on a test.
11. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by camperdave · 2009-09-21 04:48 · Score: 0
  
  Wait! They're allowed to use calculators during tests these days? No wonder the country's going to pot.
  
  The simple solution is to force the students to use school provided TI-35s during tests.
  
  --
  When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
12. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:55 · Score: 0
  
  I had this happen when I was in school. Someone reported to my math teach that I had written a program on my TI-83 to do the math for me (they were mad because I wouldn't give them a copy). My teacher asked me if I had written the program myself, to which I honestly answered "Yes". She had me call the programming screen up and give her a quick walk through of how it worked. Satisfied that I had written it myself, she allowed me to continue using it the rest of the year.
13. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:59 · Score: 0
  
  I did make programs during the tests to do repeat processes.
  Cheater. The test is a part of the learning curve too.
14. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by nametaken · 2009-09-21 05:00 · Score: 1
  
  $.
  Always follow the $.
15. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:01 · Score: 0
  
  Teachers have to try to prevent students from cheating during exams. It's not that they are control freaks, it is that they want to ensure students are being tested on what they actually understand about the subject rather than what buttons to press on their calculator to call up the answers.
  It's not an easy problem to solve, and technological solutions such as signed code are pretty much futile (you could always resort to hardware mods). I suggest handing out cheap $1 calculators that only do the basic operations.
16. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 05:01 · Score: 1
  
  They can't even argue that installing new stuff on them is going to lose them any income anyway. Its not like the average user upgrades his calculator OS every year!
  But even if the average user did upgrade his OS every year, TI gives away their own OS updates for free; they make their money on the hardware, and allowing third-party OSes does not somehow remove the hardware requirement. TI would still be making the same amount of money.
  The caveat is that TI also makes some amount of money (I don't know if it's big or small) from sales of add-on applications, and allowing third-party OSes would most probably dry up that revenue stream for some percentage of users. (Most calculator owners probably aren't going to install a different OS, but then, most calculator owners don't buy add-on apps, either.)
17. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by jslater25 · 2009-09-21 05:03 · Score: 1
  
  I too made a "Memory Cleared" program on my TI-85. I couldn't stand losing all info that I had meticulously inserted every time a teacher decided to give a pop quiz or test. At the time, my TI-85 served as a handy little black book and pda.
18. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by s73v3r · 2009-09-21 05:03 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  I don't know if I'd put the teachers that don't allow calculators on tests in the "control freak" category. When I was in college, some of the most laid back teachers were of that variety. Typically, they'd make up problems such that you shouldn't need a calculator to solve them, unless you really sucked at arithmetic, in which case they'd have some dumb calculators available.
19. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by s73v3r · 2009-09-21 05:05 · Score: 1
  
  Its possible something like that could work, but really only if the calculator on the test was the same as the calculator the student had been using, and knows how to use its advanced features. I've never owned a TI-89. One day, before a test, my TI-83+ started dying, so I couldn't use it. I borrowed an 89 from a friend, but really, couldn't use it for shit, as I had never used one before. I ended up doing most of the test by hand anyway.
20. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:08 · Score: 0
  
  Agreed. If you want to test for calculator skills then it's probably a good idea to have a calculator-based lab where the students can develop and show off their "1337 calc skillz", if that is one of the things you're aiming for as a teacher. Which by the way isn't such a bad thing. Some of the things you can do on a calc while you're out in the field can be quite useful sometimes.
  However, tests should test for problem solving skills and for knowledge of the subject. Nothing else. Any calculations that need to be done as part of the problem solving on a test can be done by a normal $5 calculator and some tables that can be added to the end of the test.
  In high school, I was able to get perfect scores every time because I would begin every problem by finding the answer with my TI calculator, then I would start to think about what kind of solution might lead to that answer. Easy stuff.
  In real life you often have a problem where the proper solution is also the easiest way to get an estimate of the answer. How often can an engineer find an approximate solution to a problem, using a ten-line Matlab or Python program? Well, that can work sometimes, but more likely you're completely and utterly SOL if you don't know how to solve the problem properly.
21. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 05:10 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  If it's too easy to install custom software in a relatively undetectable fashion, then the calculators won't be approved for testing and classroom use.
  They're already disallowed by many teachers because students learned they can simply type their notes into the calculator. (Who needs to remember equations when the calculator stores them for you?) The TI-89 and TI-92 are not allowed in ACT tests because they're designed to allow note-taking (the 92 more than the 89, but still). (That particular requirement made my parents buy a new TI-83+, even though I already had a TI-89.)
  Honestly I've always disagreed with resistance to calculator use. Why can't I use a calculator to do calculus, or physics? The hard part isn't remembering the equations, anyway; the hard part is remembering which equation to use. Storing the list of equations in the calculator doesn't magically make you know which equation to use, it just helps you remember what the equations are in the first place. Sure, you could probably type notes into the calculator telling you which to use when, but all that effort is going to make you learn it anyway, so it most likely wouldn't make a difference.
  I always hated losing points because I transposed two numbers or something somewhere in the calculation (which would not have happened had I been using a calculator), or because I'm simply terrible at doing math by hand. I honestly have no idea how I got a 4 on that AP Calculus test.
  If I were hiring someone for a position that required a lot of math, and he proudly declared that he never uses a calculator, I don't think I would hire him. I would want my employees to use calculators - even if only to check their work.
  Um... end rant.
22. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Asclepius99 · 2009-09-21 05:15 · Score: 1
  
  There are two reasons I'd imagine this isn't easier. First, you would only have as many students taking a math test at one time as you have calculators for, which would affect standardized testing when usually the whole grade is scheduled to take the same test at about the same time. So you'd need to have several hundred calculators, at least four times as many batteries (TI-83+)), and to replace any broken ones. Can you imagine the complaints/lawsuits if a student's calculator's battery died or something else went wrong and it wasn't replaced immediately? You'd get all sorts of "My son's calculator's batteries died and it took them several minutes to replace them. All that stress of not being able to work and not knowing if he'd be able to finish the test made it so he couldn't concentrate anymore and so he failed. Clearly, this test shouldn't count for him."
  
  As for market share, pretty much everyone I know at college still has their TI-83 or 89 from high school. And we come from several different states and school districts from within the same states. So I think at this point that's kind of like saying Apple cares about getting a larger market share of MP3 players.
23. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by CastrTroy · 2009-09-21 05:16 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  There's too much to check for anyway. If you require that the student has a TI-83, they can probably store any number of things in any number of ways. You could store a bunch of cheat notes in some variable. There isn't evough time to walk around to every students desk before the exam and check for the existence of programs anyway. There was 200 students in my Year 1 calculus course in university. They mostly showed up 10 minutes before the exam started. There was no time to verify that they don't have any programs on the TI. Also, there was some required programs to do certain questions. And there wouldn't be any time to verify that it was the proper code running and that there wasn't some special input, that would tell the program to go into some other section of the code, where tons of other functionaliy was available. So our math courses have basically 2 options with this. Make it so that you can do the exam on a TI-30, and only allow these or similar, so that you couldn't program them, and therefore cheat. Or 2, require that they use the TI-86, but design the test such that you assume they are cheating, and make it so that it won't help them anyway.
  
  --
  
  Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
24. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 05:20 · Score: 1
  
  What non-free (as in payware) TI software are you referring to? The software to transfer apps to the calculator has always been free with the appropriate hardware, and I've always gotten the impression that verified teachers can get calculator simulators for free from TI. As for on-calculator applications, TI does sell some, but only to a very very tiny fraction of their userbase, and it seems that most people who have such apps get them bundled with special edition calculators.
25. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 05:30 · Score: 1
  
  The big problem with standardizing on a specific calculator model is that it makes it too transparently obvious that the test isn't properly testing any of the skills and knowledge that the class is supposed to impart in the first place. The test is no longer about math, it is about a calculator. Scores then reflect how efficiently and accurately students can perform certain algorithms with the calculator, with a woefully small contribution from identifying which algorithm the problem calls for. From such a test, it is really a small step to remove the student entirely. It just looks bad to do that.
26. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:31 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Or students should be expected to be able to do the problems WITHOUT a calculator.
  You kids standing on that green patch on my property: you know what to do.
27. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by StarsAreAlsoFire · 2009-09-21 05:36 · Score: 1
  
  My TI 89 can ( thanks to my programming ) transform between Space-2, Space-3, Body-2 and Body-3 rotation sequences. It can transform any of those into a quaternion rotation sequence.
  
  I have also written a function that will calculate a minimum energy transfer orbit. I don't remember the details, but it wasn't a simple Hohmann.
  
  Hardly 'adding two integers'.
  
  The guy who talks about ROMs has it. The TI-89 was more powerful than Mathematica when it came out. There is some incredible IP in there.
28. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by vintagepc · 2009-09-21 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  There's too much to check for anyway. ...There isn't evough time to walk around to every students desk before the exam and check for the existence of programs anyway. There was 200 students in my Year 1 calculus course in university. They mostly showed up 10 minutes before the exam started. There was no time to verify that they don't have any programs on the TI.
  
  Which is basically why my profs just hit 'clear all' themselves and move on to their next student/victim
  
  --
  Evolution - Est. 4500000000 B.C. Don't piss in the gene pool.
29. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2009-09-21 05:42 · Score: 0
  
  My bud just whined that, since it's the fall and he must get one for his new HS 9th grader, prices on used TI 83 or whatever are now in excess of $50, when just last spring when he got one for his daught, it was about $30.
  I'm like, please, do you know what you get for that?
  
  --
  (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
30. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:43 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  I had a high school math teacher who did not allow students to use graphing calculators unless she got to clear the memory. I told her that she did not have permission to look into the electronic contents of my calculator, so she had to loan me a calculator from her classroom set.
  A hacked TI would have been useful here, as I could have allowed her to [think she was] clear[ing] the contents of my calculator.
  Oddly enough, she was the only teacher I had, K-20, who was ever concerned about students loading cheat sheets into calculators. I didn't even get "checked" for the PSAT, SAT, ACT, or GRE.
  Here's my big question: my TI-89 is pretty damn powerful, and let's assume here that the teacher is not checking calculators to make sure they don't have any programs on them. Absent hardware modding the calculator and putting a Bluetooth module in it, how do you expect me to "cheat" with a calculator? PDF an entire textbook and store it in the calculator?
  Ultimately, IMHO, cheating by cramming notes into a calculator is an exercise in futility. Teachers probably know it happens, and the time or two I've tried it, I learned more writing in the notes and wound up not needing them.
31. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by TheRaven64 · 2009-09-21 05:55 · Score: 1
  
  I wrote a simple app for my TI-86 which displayed the 'clear all' menu but didn't clear anything. I showed it to my teacher, who admitted that he wouldn't have noticed if I'd used it in an exam. I didn't, but I have no idea if anyone else did. Unless you are going to carefully check if it is cleared, then it's easy to fake. My program, for example, let you go to the programs menu and displayed no programs, so you could validate that it had really worked. And it was under 100 lines of code in TI's dialect of BASIC.
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
32. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by falcon5768 · 2009-09-21 05:57 · Score: 0
  
  I'd hardly EVER say its the teachers. The administrators and government officials, yes. But trust me when I tell you teachers have little authority to dictate to TI that they dont want them to load software on the calculators.
  
  --
  "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
33. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 06:01 · Score: 0
  
  He's referring to TestGuard. It's a TI app that attempts to restrict the use of calculators on tests. I should point out that both versions of it have been broken and are completely useless.
34. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by SuperMog2002 · 2009-09-21 06:02 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I liked what my stats professor in college did: All tests were open book and open note, and you were allowed to use whatever calculator you wanted with whatever programs you wanted. The problems were tuned so that you wouldn't need a fancy calculator to do well, but if you knew this test was going to have Z-tests on it and you brought a program that could do Z-tests for you, more power to you. However, you darn well better be able to read the presented scenario and know off the top of your head that a Z-test is what you need in the first place. There was a strict 50 minute time limit, and if you were using your resources for anything more than a quick formula lookup or computation, you were doomed.
  
  --
  Sunwalker Dezco for Warchief in 2016
35. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by klapaucjusz · 2009-09-21 06:10 · Score: 1
  
  [some lecturers] make up problems such that you shouldn't need a calculator to solve them
  You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to convince undergrads that they do not need a calculator to multiply 1024 by 4.
  (Most students want to use their mobile phone as a calculator -- which is obviously forbidden during the test, we don't want them to be sending SMSes asking for help.)
36. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by klapaucjusz · 2009-09-21 06:12 · Score: 1
  
  If it's that much of a concern, why don't the schools have a set of TI calculators that are available for standardized tests? Stagger the testing properly, and you don't actually need one for each student.
  And spend two days on tests that could be done in four hours? Thanks, I'll pass.
  
  If the school is concerned with the costs involved, I'm sure they could work a deal with TI to receive the "in-class only" calculators for free or at cost.
  TI does indeed provide us with free calculators, if you manage to get through the mess that is TI's management. (Different managers appear to disagree on whether or not they are giving us calculators.)
37. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by gangien · 2009-09-21 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  all mathematicians i've ever met, had advanced calculators.
38. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by kestasjk · 2009-09-21 06:29 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks, that actually explains this quite well and I was totally mystified.
  
  --
  // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
39. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by arb+phd+slp · 2009-09-21 06:35 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  I've found that "completely open-book" is common in statistics courses. I don't think that is the case for other kinds of maths or science courses.
  
  --
  There's a perfect xkcd for my sig but I'm too lazy to look it up. sudo someone go find it.
40. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 06:44 · Score: 1
  
  I know that TI doesn't do a lot of direct communication with teachers, but every high school math teacher I've met or otherwise dealt with has been able to decide which calculators, if any, may be used on their assignments and tests. On the other hand, I've never heard of a specific instance of a school-wide or higher level policy on calculator use, excepting the ones from ACT and the College Board.
41. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Toonol · 2009-09-21 06:45 · Score: 1
  
  I think you've nailed the real reason. The requirement in so many schools for students to use TI-83s is reprehensible. It's one of the main reasons that $10 worth of technology is still being sold for $100. If TI had to actually compete, we'd get progress. Calculators have been stagnant.
  
  It also hurts the learning process. I helped a lady who was taking an Algebra class at the community college... she was plotting curves, figuring slopes, and whatnot. The actual MATH TEXTBOOK she was working out of had images of TI buttons and a numbered checklist which described how to calculate slopes by giving the procedure to pull up the right menu on the calculator. She had no idea what the actual MATH behind the process was. It might as well have been describing how to solve the equation by running a Graphing Wizard in Excel.
42. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Brian+Gordon · 2009-09-21 06:45 · Score: 1
  
  Sounds reasonable enough until you start to pick it apart. TI calculators are more valuable because they provide less functionality? What about engineers and mathematicians? Their market should be about making calculations as easy as possible, not about educating little children.
  TI should just sell the Playskool-branded calculator for middle school students instead of crippling their real calculators.
43. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by stephanruby · 2009-09-21 06:47 · Score: 1
  
  If it's that much of a concern, why don't the schools have a set of TI calculators that are available for standardized tests?
  My school did that. It turned out it was way too expensive. TI calculators are designed to fail exactly 24 hours after their warranty expires. Better they go with Casio, or HP (assuming HP still makes calculators).
44. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 06:51 · Score: 1
  
  Ah. I escaped the public school system before that was around (or at least before it made it to my schools).
45. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Brian+Gordon · 2009-09-21 06:52 · Score: 1
  
  It takes more time to put in the equation of a graph or table than to just find the roots or the regression equation by hand
  Matrix transformations? Solving linear systems? If these take you longer on the calculator then you're doing it wrong.
46. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Mister+Whirly · 2009-09-21 06:55 · Score: 1
  
  Well don't just leave us in suspense - what is the answer? I don't have a calculator with me today...
  
  --
  "But this one goes to 11!"
47. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Brian+Gordon · 2009-09-21 06:58 · Score: 1
  
  I have a TI-89. I don't think it's all that incredibly powerful. There are just a lot of simple functions that are a great platform for doing complicated things.
  The "power features" like the CAS are just flaky compared to other modern computer algebra systems. I admit the symbolic calculation functionality is awesome though.
48. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by jimbolauski · 2009-09-21 06:58 · Score: 1
  
  Real control freak teachers don't even let students use a calculator because there is nothing a calculator can do that a students should not be able to do faster.
  
  Here are just a few things that a calculator will do much faster multiplying large numbers for instance Pi and just about anything.
  Natural Log
  Power if x or y are large, negative or complex then x^y will take more time
  Trig sin, cos, tan, arctan, ... referencing a lookup table and then multiplying it will take much longer.
  Matrix inversion
  Thats all I got off the top of my head
  
  You are right it is about teachers, if teachers were good at their job then students would understand what they are typing into their calculator to get the answer, most poor teachers fail to effectively teach the why in math so students become mindless zombies just entering numbers into the calculator.
  
  --
  Knowledge = Power
  P= W/t
  t=Money
  Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
49. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Brian+Gordon · 2009-09-21 07:02 · Score: 1
  
  In high school, I was able to get perfect scores every time because I would begin every problem by finding the answer with my TI calculator, then I would start to think about what kind of solution might lead to that answer. Easy stuff.
  And did you turn out as a dumb sack of bricks or did you learn it?
50. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by klapaucjusz · 2009-09-21 07:04 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  what is the answer?
  42.
51. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by clone53421 · 2009-09-21 07:05 · Score: 1
  
  If "2pi" isn't a good enough answer, I don't see why "6.2831853" is any better.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
52. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Brian+Gordon · 2009-09-21 07:07 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, they don't sell apps anymore: all of them are free (gratis) to download.
  Even eepro
53. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 07:15 · Score: 0
  
  It's not the note-taking alone that got the 89/92 banned from classes - though I'm sure that was a major factor for the low level classes and big standardized tests.
  It's that, IIRC, they have full algebraic solvers that give pretty-printed exact answers, so the only way to test whether a student understands certain things is to ban those particular calculators. The power of these tools is non-trivial these days; as I learned last week when someone with an 89 demonstrated why we're still not allowed them in Calc 4 - it instantly churned through a whole bunch of partial derivatives all nice and neat that would otherwise have taken a few minutes of careful work to do by hand. Great for real work, not so great for fair tests. [though our calc4 professor has *also* said he'd like to allow them someday in the higher math classes once it's guaranteed that every student has one. Which I agree with, because after a certain point, the "hard part" is more about the thinking through and setting up the problem correctly than grinding through the mechanical stuff that follows after.]
  But I guarantee you, plenty of people would use these to coast through algrebra, trig, and calc 1-2 without learning much of anything. To the extent that the other day when I was idly looking up what chip is used in the new calculators, I stumbled across guidelines of case mods to stuff the guts of a 92 into the case of an 83...
  Theoretically, the same programs could be written for a fully cracked 83. They'd be much, much slower of course, but they'd run.
54. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by SkipFrehly · 2009-09-21 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  Things get very sticky at this point, though. Most advanced math classes for the controlling portion of students, in High School, and probably half of those in college, are going to be totally useless in their field. In HS my AP Calc teacher told the class that for students like us, it was only a matter of helping us develop our creative problem solving skills. Granted, a calculator isn't very creative, but it's still a novel approach.
  
  --
  So long, thanks for all the fish.
55. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 07:18 · Score: 1
  
  Ah. I haven't checked their website for several years (when I stopped using my TIs regularly).
  So... that makes my point even stronger :)
56. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 07:46 · Score: 0
  
  Dude, like, what did he say then? Was he like all in your face and everything?
57. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 07:50 · Score: 0
  
  ensure
58. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 07:54 · Score: 0
  
  Anyone can download a silver edition emulator and ROM from TI's own website. They call it the ti-83+ Flash Debugger. I don't see what the big deal is.
59. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 07:57 · Score: 0
  
  Honestly I've always disagreed with resistance to calculator use. Why can't I use a calculator to do calculus, or physics?
  For the same reason that you cannot take all your textbooks into the exam. The idea is to test what you have learnt and understand not how quickly you can look up similar problems or solutions. In addition unless a specific brand and model of calculator is required - which may differ from course to course - students will not have equal capabilities which is unfair. Far easier to allow only a basic calculator and let them write a fixed sized formula sheet. In addition there is also the pedagogical aspect. How can you understand what calculus is if you have no idea how to actually do it? How are you going to catch mistakes? Calculators are like foreign language dictionaries: useful if you have a basic understanding but rather dangerous if you just blindly trust whatever they tell you. You absolutely should learn to use calculators but only AFTER you have a good understnading of exactly what they are doing. It is also often far quicker to do it by hand than to use a calculator for simple stuff.
  
  I always hated losing points because I transposed two numbers or something somewhere in the calculation (which would not have happened had I been using a calculator)...
  Want to bet? I've found that using a calculator does not help at all. Students still copy down the answer from the screen wrong or forget which operations are commutative and which are not or round excessively. The errors might be different but there are just as many of them.
60. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Xveers · 2009-09-21 08:08 · Score: 1
  
  This is oddly one of the main things that's driven into my Business Admin degree. In virtually every course we encounter where we have standardized math equations (mainly seen when doing mortgage and other time-value money work) we are introduced to the concepts and we do some questions on paper, and then we're shown how to use our calculator (a basic BA-II+ by TI incidentally) to do the same math. In many cases it's not the student's implementation of their solution that is a problem but instead their math. A simple error in copying a number or some other mundane "oops" that results in them failing a question. We're taught and trained to understand HOW the calculator does the dirty work so we can recognize when we get an odd answer (the calculator isn't our god after all, just a tool) but we use it to do a LOT of dirty work that vastly speeds up our time. For example, this was a question we had in 3rd year finance. It's not the ONLY question in the exam, I should add. Certainly not the hardest. Anyhow, a pizzeria has the option to buy a new oven or keep the current one. We have to take ALL the cash flows for the next 5 years on both options, bring them back to the present, as well as disposal costs and returns, amortizations, tax shields and more. With a non-linear cash flow to boot. Want to bet how many people did that stuff by hand? Yeah. Not many.
61. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 08:15 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not saying calculators would have completely eliminated my mistakes. I'm saying they would have greatedly reduced the number of mistakes.
  And yes, I completely agree with this:
  
  In addition there is also the pedagogical aspect. How can you understand what calculus is if you have no idea how to actually do it?
  I think the solution is not to ban calculators from courses entirely. The solution is to teach students to do it by hand first, and then teach them how to use calculators to do the same thing. Yes, that requires changing the course. That's why most teachers don't do it - they're lazy, and don't want to redo something that they think works fine.
62. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by klapaucjusz · 2009-09-21 08:23 · Score: 1
  
  Which is basically why my profs just hit 'clear all' themselves and move on to their next student/victim
  I'm fairly positive we're not allowed to do that. We do have the right to ask a student to turn his calculator/mobile phone/mp3 player/whatever off, we are allowed to confiscate it and give it back at the end of the lecture, but we're certainly not allowed to clear the data off a studen't calculator.
  Surprising as it may sound, students are human beings, and enjoy many of the same rights as we do.
63. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 09:22 · Score: 0
  
  this is exactly the issue.....
64. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by lgw · 2009-09-21 09:32 · Score: 1
  
  Where I went to school, all match/science tests were "open everything", and usually take-home. The only thing off-limits was help from other people. I still remember my first such physics test: I was worried that I did poorly, since I knew I had missed about a third of the questions. Turned out my sixty-something result was double the mean. "Completely open book" just meant "really feaking hard".
  
  --
  Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
65. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2009-09-21 09:58 · Score: 1
  
  The TI calculator division is all about placating teachers and standardized testing agencies. If it's too easy to install custom software in a relatively undetectable fashion, then the calculators won't be approved for testing and classroom use.
  It's not TI that's the control freaks - it's the teachers.
  heh. When I was in B-school, one of my proofs banned certain calculators from use on tests - including my trusty HP scientific because you could store things in memory. No problem, I brought in a slide rule and my other HP (11c) and got along just fine.
  She seemed a bit perturbed when I pointed out that many calculators she banned had programmable memory as well.
  Personally if I can't trust my classmates not to cheat I frankly don't want to be around them; everyone I knew would not program anything in if the prof asked them not to. As a side not, finance ain't rocket science, and I could do 90% of the math in my head or on paper faster than with a calculator.
  As for standardized tests, the main advantage of a calculator is you didn't need to know how to actually solve the problem - plug in the middle value on the GMAT; see if your answer is higher / lower and by how much - bingo, select the right answer and move on.
  
  --
  I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
66. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 09:58 · Score: 0
  
  To be honest, if one cannot do 2X2 or 3X3 linear operations using small integers by hand in the same order of magnitude time it would take to type into t TI-8x and get a result, then one needs work on row operations. Of course, a teacher may be more interested in testing the ability to use a calculator than analytical reasoning ability, but that is another point.
  On a more serious note, if one cannot quickly do row operations, then how do you know the answer is correct? Plugging numbers back in at the end? This is an extremely dangerous process susceptible to one desire and assumption for the calculator to be correct. It is much better to have a general expectation of the what the calculator answer should be. In fact once this is done, it is often sufficient.
  But all this is silly. The only market for calculators more than $50 is the educational market. My phone can reach google and wolfram|alpha, my small computer can run mathematica. I have my HP 50G for fun, and I use it sometimes to do sums, but I don't carry it around.
67. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2009-09-21 10:00 · Score: 1
  
  [some lecturers] make up problems such that you shouldn't need a calculator to solve them
  You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to convince undergrads that they do not need a calculator to multiply 1024 by 4.
  Even better, try to convince them that even though the calculator says 2 x 2 is 4.0000000000 that that's not a correct answer.
  
  --
  I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
68. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by WindowPane · 2009-09-21 10:02 · Score: 1
  
  I noticed the same thing too. Even going back 20 years to the very first graphing calculators the prices have not changed much. The technology is so much more advanced now but the price and the screen quality seem to have stayed the same.
  We need an open source graphing calculator project. OGCPC! (one graphing calculator per child).
  
  --
  No Brains, No Headaches
69. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by bigngamer92 · 2009-09-21 10:03 · Score: 1
  
  "TI to receive the "in-class only" calculators for free or at cost"
  I think you fail to understand how deeply entrenched the TI monopoly is. Sure most people equate computer experience to Windows knowledge but trying to find a graphing calculator that is non-TI in any High School is truly a mind boggling struggle. I have never seen a HP RPN calculator in real life.
  How much does it even cost TI for that Hardware their selling? I'm sure a Game Boy Advance is packing more power than that of the TI-84.
  
  --
  Common Sense
70. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by cbhacking · 2009-09-21 10:30 · Score: 1
  
  How is the 89 suited to taking notes? I mean, sure it's posible, but I thought even the 83 had an Alpha key... I used to keep handy formulas (notes, I guess) on my 86 in the form of "scripts" that didn't do anything.
  Only the TI-9x calculators actually had a Qwerty keyboard, which was definitely suited to note-taking.
  
  --
  There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
71. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by SkimTony · 2009-09-21 10:36 · Score: 1
  
  2^12
72. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 10:38 · Score: 1
  
  How is the 89 suited to taking notes?
  It provides an explicit "text" file type (rather than just BASIC program files), and its screen resolution is more friendly for note-taking than the 83 series calculators.
73. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 10:50 · Score: 0
  
  This is oddly one of the main things that's driven into my Business Admin degree. In virtually every course we encounter where we have standardized math equations (mainly seen when doing mortgage and other time-value money work) we are introduced to the concepts and we do some questions on paper, and then we're shown how to use our calculator (a basic BA-II+ by TI incidentally) to do the same math. In many cases it's not the student's implementation of their solution that is a problem but instead their math. A simple error in copying a number or some other mundane "oops" that results in them failing a question. We're taught and trained to understand HOW the calculator does the dirty work so we can recognize when we get an odd answer (the calculator isn't our god after all, just a tool) but we use it to do a LOT of dirty work that vastly speeds up our time. For example, this was a question we had in 3rd year finance. It's not the ONLY question in the exam, I should add. Certainly not the hardest. Anyhow, a pizzeria has the option to buy a new oven or keep the current one. We have to take ALL the cash flows for the next 5 years on both options, bring them back to the present, as well as disposal costs and returns, amortizations, tax shields and more. With a non-linear cash flow to boot. Want to bet how many people did that stuff by hand? Yeah. Not many.
  And that, is why people like you should be replaceable. At least to a larger extent than people with actual technical skill. Those that have technical skill are obviously smart enough to handle complex problems and what is business other than tackling complex economic problems?
74. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 11:43 · Score: 0
  
  Real control freak teachers don't even let students use a calculator because there is nothing a calculator can do that a students should not be able to do faster. It takes more time to put in the equation of a graph or table than to just find the roots or the regression equation by hand.
  
  Quick, what's the square root of 438156175? According to your own standards, you should be able to perform this calculation by hand in about one millisecond.
75. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 11:44 · Score: 0
  
  No...not really. That's like saying that standardizing on a number two pencil is bad. If a test rewards calculator zombies instead of pencil wizards, then guess what? THE TEST IS BAD. If the number crunching is too easy, write a test where it's hard to find which numbers to crunch. Sheesh.
76. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Brian+Gordon · 2009-09-21 11:58 · Score: 1
  
  To be honest, if one cannot do 2X2 or 3X3 linear operations using small integers by hand in the same order of magnitude time it would take to type into t TI-8x and get a result, then one needs work on row operations.
  
  Not when you have to apply multiple transformations to the same matrix
  
  On a more serious note, if one cannot quickly do row operations, then how do you know the answer is correct?
  More like, if you're not using a calculator to check your work how do you know the answer is correct :)
77. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by vintagepc · 2009-09-21 12:25 · Score: 1
  
  Later, they just got smart and decided "no programmable calculators... so now we have just a basic one with no memory for any alphanumeric data.
  
  --
  Evolution - Est. 4500000000 B.C. Don't piss in the gene pool.
78. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Alpha830RulZ · 2009-09-21 15:50 · Score: 1
  
  And what was writing a successful spoof program? I think the OP met, at least in some meta level, the educational goals of the class.
  
  --
  I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
79. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Alpha830RulZ · 2009-09-21 15:57 · Score: 1
  
  I have a TI-89. I don't think it's all that incredibly powerful. There are just a lot of simple functions that are a great platform for doing complicated things.
  Maybe it's just me, but I think that is precisely what power is. That is how I think of Linux and open source.
  
  --
  I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
80. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Alpha830RulZ · 2009-09-21 16:05 · Score: 1
  
  The solution is to teach students to do it by hand first, and then teach them how to use calculators to do the same thing.
  I took physics in high school, in 1975, and that's how we did it then. Did something change? I can remember arguing the benefits of RPN with my class mates.
  
  --
  I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
81. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Alpha830RulZ · 2009-09-21 16:09 · Score: 1
  
  You're a fucking idiot if you don't recognize that this -is- a technical skill. You are no different than the Dilbert comic about designing a world wide client server network in seven minutes. Your comment is equivalent to calling you out because you use a device driver to access a disk without being intimate with it's code.
  
  --
  I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
82. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by rdnetto · 2009-09-21 16:13 · Score: 1
  
  That sounds like my Yr 12 exams (I live in Victoria, Australia). Each math exam has a tech-able and tech free-component, and we can use notes and whatever calc programs we want on the tech-able portion.
  
  --
  Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
83. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by sr180 · 2009-09-21 17:36 · Score: 1
  
  I liked what our first year maths courses did. No calculators. First year maths and first year calculus should all be completable without a calculator.
  
  --
  In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
84. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by maxume · 2009-09-21 23:56 · Score: 1
  
  I'm pretty sure the TI-86 sitting on my desk here did not come with an 11 year warranty.
  
  --
  Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
85. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by maxume · 2009-09-22 00:18 · Score: 1
  
  I was under the impression that the qwerty (style) keyboard was the key issue. Browsing around, it looks like the SAT bans calculators for having a keyboard, and the ACT bans them for having a CAS.
  
  --
  Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
86. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by clone53421 · 2009-09-22 02:14 · Score: 1
  
  That sounds about like my first Circuits exam. I got something like a 33 (yes, out of 100), and it turned out that it was about as good or better than most everyone in the class. (Of course there was the one Indian girl who got something absurdly high and set the curve... you did say yours was Physics, right?) (She was in most of the same classes I had and always seemed to end up acing the tests, but oddly enough she often seemed utterly lost in the labs.)
  It wasn't a take-home exam, either, come to think of it.
  Boy was our prof's face red when he gave us back that exam. He was mad.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
87. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by clone53421 · 2009-09-22 02:20 · Score: 1
  
  Even better, try to convince them that even though the calculator says 2 x 2 is 4.0000000000 that that's not an acceptable answer.
  Nothing incorrect about it. Whether or not you will accept it is, I suppose, entirely your prerogative (so long as your students are suitably informed of all your nit-picking rules before the fact).
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
88. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by UBfusion · 2009-09-22 03:58 · Score: 1
  
  If 2 and 2 are measurement results, then 4.0000000000 is definitely incorrect, it should have the proper number of significant figures.
89. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Registered+Coward+v2 · 2009-09-22 04:03 · Score: 1
  
  Even better, try to convince them that even though the calculator says 2 x 2 is 4.0000000000 that that's not an acceptable answer.
  Nothing incorrect about it. Whether or not you will accept it is, I suppose, entirely your prerogative (so long as your students are suitably informed of all your nit-picking rules before the fact).
  Significant digits. I'd often get students who failed to grasp the concept that mere multiplication does not increase the precision of a measurement.
  Often, it's a failure to understand the nature of the work they are doing nor having an intuitive feel for what the answer should be (as evidenced by their clearly misplacing a decimal as they enter numbers and putting down an answer one or more factors of 10 too large or small.); which is a result IMHO of too much dependence on technology - the machine *must* be right. My favorite example is when you give someone a $5 for a $3.49; they ring up $5 and then are lost when you hand the 4 additional cents.
  Personally, as much as I like the convenience of technology the slide rule actually forced you to think about the results of calculations.
  Nit picky? Perhaps, but there are times when precision is important, so learning how to do math properly lays the groundwork for later./P.
  
  --
  I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
90. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by clone53421 · 2009-09-22 04:39 · Score: 1
  
  If you're working on significant digits, that's fine. However, I've always been inclined to think that 2 = 2.0 = 2.000... to however many digits you care to string out. If you know your measurement is imprecise (all measurements are, to some degree), you're welcome to draw a line somewhere.
  I tend to think that sort of practice will tend to cause rounding errors and then magnify them. I'd almost prefer to have a precise figure which I know to be slightly inaccurate than an imprecise figure which is almost as accurate as its precision allows, so long as I got the number from the correct algebraic manipulations (with little or no rounding error in the process). At the very end, I'll put it in a form that's reasonable, given the accuracy.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
91. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by clone53421 · 2009-09-22 04:48 · Score: 1
  
  Heh, posted my comment and then remembered I hadn't finished yet...
  
  failure to understand the nature of the work they are doing nor having an intuitive feel for what the answer should be (as evidenced by their clearly misplacing a decimal as they enter numbers and putting down an answer one or more factors of 10 too large or small.)
  Yeah, that happens all too often. I see it mostly as people not being willing to put the mental effort into understanding it and/or working the problem correctly.
  
  too much dependence on technology - the machine *must* be right. My favorite example is when you give someone a $5 for a $3.49; they ring up $5 and then are lost when you hand the 4 additional cents
  That's certainly part of it... and when I'm thinking of it I usually try to get the coins counted before I hand them the bills, so they can punch in the full amount from the get-go and the computer can tell them the correct amount of change I'm expecting.
  Anyway, I'd still say that "acceptable" is the word you're looking for. Implying that you know more about the accuracy of a figure than you actually know (by expressing it using unnecessary precision) isn't incorrect, it's unacceptable. (Of course, I'm nit-picking over language, so who am I to talk? ;)
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
92. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-22 04:49 · Score: 1
  
  The qwerty-style keyboard is only an issue for the TI-92; the TI-89 is essentially the same, but it uses a more normal calculator keyboard (using an alt key for letters). Both use the same OS, as far as I'm aware; both are banned on the ACT, but I'd guess only the TI-92 is banned on the SAT.
93. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by atamido · 2009-09-22 05:45 · Score: 1
  
  My current calculus professor allows us to use whatever calculator we want on the tests, which is extremely useful as it allows us to check our work and see if we made some mundane mistake somewhere. As the answer provided by the calculator is rarely in a form that is even recognizable as the answers we get, this involves simply subtracting our answer from the calculators answer to get zero (or some other constant or variable).
  Points are awarded based on work steps, so an answer without work gets you nothing.
94. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by Zeroko · 2009-09-22 05:52 · Score: 1
  
  On the TI-86, at least, the OS offered the ability to add a keystroke handler hook in assembly. That would make fake memory clearing easy. It could even trap & fake other things like checking the memory screen until a password is entered. I would be surprised if no one has written one yet.
  & even on the TI-83+ (or even the TI-81 :)) you can always replace the interrupt routine & trap keys before they reach the OS.
95. Re:Its the usual castle gate mentality by falcon5768 · 2009-09-22 09:57 · Score: 1
  
  Calculator use is almost ALWAYS dictated by a District wide policy. If you heard differently, you heard wrong. You can sneeze in a public school district without it being a district wide policy to cover their asses.
  
  --
  "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by AndrewNeo · 2009-09-21 03:53 · Score: 1

I think #6 in this case is 'counter-sue'
This makes me wanna... by MMC+Monster · 2009-09-21 04:00 · Score: 1

...use some of my spare CPU time to help out. Any easy way?

--
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
1. Re:This makes me wanna... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:08 · Score: 0
  
  Its very easy in either windows or linux.
  All you need is ggnfs, perl and the .poly file. Precompiled windows binaries for perl and ggnfs are available.
  Its much faster in linux though, where you can compile the experimental siever which is unavailable in windows at the moment.
2. Re:This makes me wanna... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:21 · Score: 0
  
  there is also the boink prject (like folding at home) thats hosted by one of the community members. you can participate through that as well
Woosh by zippthorne · 2009-09-21 04:04 · Score: 1

Perhaps you didn't see the "ellipsis of sarcasm" at the end of the sentence.

--
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
1. Re:Woosh by Haxzaw · 2009-09-21 06:09 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  "As a MS/Phd engineering student..." There are several clues in that statement as to why he didn't get it.
Are HS kids their target audience? by davidwr · 2009-09-21 04:15 · Score: 1

If they were they would be a bit more aggressive with pricing - some of their competitors have graphing calculators for under $50 on sale.
If I were a large school district or state school board I would weigh that heavily when recommending what calculators to recommend or buy for my students.

--
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
1. Re:Are HS kids their target audience? by sexconker · 2009-09-21 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  If you were a large school district or state school board you wouldn't give a shit about the students or their parents. You'd give a shit about whether or not any calculator manufacturer will be throwing money your way, or, barring that, which calculators your teachers are most familiar with.
That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by maillemaker · 2009-09-21 04:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

I've been using HP scientific calculators since the 32S (the one that opened up like a book). At the time, in 1989, they were state-of-the-art, and math teachers had no idea that they could do definite and indefinite integration and differentiation.
Now, of course, math teachers have figured out that modern calculators are essentially full-blown computers. The last calculus course I took a year ago did not allow any calculators, but the last time I was in a math class that allowed them only TI calculators were allowed. I could not use my HP50G as it was too powerful and would enable me to cheat.
I think we've seen the end of high-end calculator development because the main market of those devices - college students - can't use them anymore in their classes.

--
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
1. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 04:25 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  While math classes like calculus and ODEs typically ban calculators from tests, there are still all kinds of chemistry, physics, and engineering classes where a 50g is both allowed and incredibly useful for homework and tests. More than any other feature, the efficient units system in the 50g really helped me in physics and was a great check that my calculations were correct.
2. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:33 · Score: 0
  
  What the hell type of math course was that? So what the calculator could do integration but was there some sort of "show your work" where you would have to pencil out the non trivial integration problems as more than "calculator gave me the answer". I mean when you get beyond basic mathematics, computation matters less and concepts start to matter more. I really don't buy those asinine rules.
3. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:42 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Well, I used an HP48 in my computational methods class and aced the exam. We had to show our work too, so I just programmed the calculator to perform the computations the same as you would long hand, and show each step of the process. All I had to do was copy each screen down as it went. I was finished the 2 hour exam in about 20 minutes. There is no more powerful a calculator than an HP.
4. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by clone53421 · 2009-09-21 04:58 · Score: 1
  
  LOL. I'd say you deserved that grade.
  Of course, I finished most of my exams in ridiculously short amounts of time anyway, so whatever.
  My favourite class was "Discrete Structures" (IIRC). Nodes and connections, mailman problem, shortest path, graphs with weighted edges, etc. Everything was able to be solved with a simple algorithm, which had to be memorized. My note-taking consisted of working the problems on scratch paper in-class as the instructor walked us through them. I did not study my notes or the book at all outside of class. There were 4 exams. I got 100% on all four of them. The class was laughably easy, but mostly just because I was good at thinking in algorithms.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
5. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:21 · Score: 0
  
  With apologies to Charlton Heston: You'll have to pry my HP-48GX out of my cold, dead fingers!
  I can understand why people prefer different calculators, but I've had that 48-GX for over 15 years and I have no intention on replacing it any time soon. I _like_ HP calculators. The good scientific ones are hard to find these days (and kids these days can't seem to grok RPN - get off of my lawn!) so I had to buy my 10th grader a TI.
6. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 05:35 · Score: 1
  
  I think we've seen the end of high-end calculator development because the main market of those devices - college students - can't use them anymore in their classes.
  Personally I think that shows a fundamental flaw in our schools - we should be taught using the tools available to us, we shouldn't be taught to ignore those tools.
7. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  It's worth pointing out the the HP49/50 series CAS has a "step by step" mode that usually outputs enough intermediate steps to satisfy a lazy calculus teacher. It will inform the user when it is performing a substitution, though I believe the user is still required to tell the calculator when to use integration by parts.
8. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by zippthorne · 2009-09-21 05:48 · Score: 1
  
  Graphing calculators aren't a useful tool. They're a contrivance that students have to put up with because of other factors.
  Namely: they're a small, nearly useless computer that fits in a backpack and can be dropped. They don't do anything that couldn't be done 100x as fast on a netbook. Heck, they don't do anything that couldn't be done better on a PDA or an eBook reader if it has enough juice to play mp3s.
  
  --
  Can you be Even More Awesome?!
9. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 06:00 · Score: 1
  
  My point wasn't necessarily "We all need graphic calculators in school", it was "we need to be taught using the tools available to us", which happens to include netbooks.
10. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 07:04 · Score: 1
  
  Why would I choose a netbook over my HP 50g for math? A netbook would be over twice the price, twice the size, have worse battery life, no number pad, and wouldn't come with any math software on it. My HP, on the other hand, comes with a specialized keyboard and a user interface to match that make it very efficient to input equations. In fact, the user interface is so much more efficient that for simple problems, the HP is quicker overall than a desktop with a full size keyboard and a fast CPU. And I suspect that the kinds of problems that are slow to run on my HP would also be slow running on an Intel Atom that had Windows and a Java UI (I'm looking at you, Maple!) getting in the way.
  Graphing calculators are very useful tools in spite of the preponderance of general purpose computers, precisely because they are specialized. Just because a tool is specialized enough that it doesn't include functionality relevant to you doesn't mean that it is useless.
11. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:15 · Score: 0
  
  Normal people don't use HP calculators because people don't think in reverse polish.
12. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by PCM2 · 2009-09-21 09:18 · Score: 1
  
  I had a periodic-table program for my 50g that was a lifesaver in chemistry class. Imagine typing in any chemical formula on the fly and instantly being given the molecular weight. And no, it's not "cheating"! The student gains absolutely zero benefit from adding up the weights of complex formulas during a two-hour college chemistry test. There are far too many other things to worry about. Actually, use of calculators in my class was completely unrestricted. You didn't even have to show your work! But if you didn't show any work, there was no way to give you partial credit if you got the answer wrong...
  
  --
  Breakfast served all day!
13. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by Obfuscant · 2009-09-21 10:28 · Score: 1
  
  Personally I think that shows a fundamental flaw in our schools - we should be taught using the tools available to us, we shouldn't be taught to ignore those tools.
  When I have a hard question to answer in the real world, I use Google.
  Imagine a world where nobody has to think about anything anymore. Who will be writing the web pages that I can go find the answers on?
  Here's the point: when you are a student you are supposed to be learning HOW to do things and WHY they are done that way. HOW doesn't mean "press the following keys on my calculator", it means knowing what the physical interpretation is and the limitations and when to do what.
  Here's one quick example. In chemistry, when solving concentration problems using equilibrium constants, there is a quick way that ignores decreases in concentration of some species and the long way that requires solving the quadratic equation. Knowing when you can use the short way and when you need the long way, and why, is part of what you need to learn in that class.
  Here's another example: if you are given a circuit for an amplifier in electronics class and are asked for the DC voltage gain, yes, you could get the answer by entering all the components in a spice simulation and dividing the DC output by the DC input, but you won't know WHY the gain is what it is, or even how to change the circuit to get a different gain.
  And here's an anecdotal story about why "using the tools available" in a learning class is not a good idea. I taught an undergrad analytical chem lab. One of the students forgot his calculator on quiz day. He begged to borrow mine. "It's an HP, it's reverse polish..." "No problem", he said. He took the quiz, and one of the problems was about the hydrogen ion concentration in a certain solution. The correct answer was somewhere around 10^-7 (pH of 7). HIS answer was: 1. One. 1.0000000. His minor mistake was pressing enter before pressing divide. His REAL mistake was not realizing that his answer was patently ridiculous, off by 6 orders of magnitude. But the calculator, his "tool", was beyond question. That's why "learning to use the tools" must FOLLOW learning to use the mind.
14. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 10:31 · Score: 1
  
  I agree with you; teaching with the available tools can be done incorrectly. That doesn't mean it can't be done correctly.
15. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by Sulphur · 2009-09-21 10:55 · Score: 1
  
  With apologies to Charlton Heston: You'll have to pry my HP-48GX out of my cold, dead fingers!
  Was Heston buried with his firearms?
16. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by Obfuscant · 2009-09-21 11:08 · Score: 1
  
  I agree with you; teaching with the available tools can be done incorrectly. That doesn't mean it can't be done correctly.
  Teaching WITH the tools isn't the problem. The problem is allowing the tools to replace the thought process before the thought process has been internalized. The chemistry student had not yet internalized the concept of neutral buffer solutions and pH, so the answer that resulted in a neutral buffer solution being more acidic than concentrated HCl wasn't obviously wrong. And yet the "tool" gave him that answer.
  I have no problem with people using a calculator to do math, as long as they aren't in math class being taught the processes that the calculator is replacing. Or to do chemsistry, as long as they aren't supposed to be learning the processes that the calculator is doing for them. Then the calculator is a tool and not a crutch.
17. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by HeronBlademaster · 2009-09-21 11:13 · Score: 1
  
  Well sure, and that's sort of my point. It can be (and has been) done incorrectly, allowing the calculator to replace the tiniest hint of effort. That's the wrong way.
  I maintain that math can be taught in such a way as to teach students the concepts while allowing them to use calculators on homework and tests. (Even merely requiring students to show intermediate work would suffice to show they know how to do it by hand, while allowing them to check their answer on the calculator.)
18. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 16:49 · Score: 0
  
  Um...The 32S did not open up like a book.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-32S
19. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by clone53421 · 2009-09-22 02:42 · Score: 1
  
  Here's another example: if you are given a circuit for an amplifier in electronics class and are asked for the DC voltage gain, yes, you could get the answer by entering all the components in a spice simulation and dividing the DC output by the DC input, but you won't know WHY the gain is what it is, or even how to change the circuit to get a different gain.
  Ugh, you're giving me flashbacks... maybe my teacher just sucked at explaining it, because that was one of the very few things I just couldn't wrap my mind around. I was completely lost when it came to determining the gain on a simple FET, BJT, or op-amp circuit.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
20. Re:That's because HP calculators are too powerful. by clone53421 · 2009-09-22 02:50 · Score: 1
  
  Sure they do. Ever cook much?
  Get the butter and frying pan. Put the butter in the pan (binary operation) and put it on the stove (unary operation). Get the potatoes. Chop them (unary operation). Add the chopped potatoes to the hot butter (binary operation). Wait, stir, flip, what-have-you, remove, serve, salt, eat (all unary operations). I could think of more examples, but I think I've made my point...
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Exam answers? by argent · 2009-09-21 04:20 · Score: 1

When I was in college, we weren't even allowed to use calculators with memory, and in some exams we had to use slide rules only.
Someone could be sneaking in exam answers in a ROM that didn't show up until you entered 1337 and hit "=" five times to hide it from the proctors...
1. Re:Exam answers? by bluefoxlucid · 2009-09-21 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  i've never been able to get exam "answers" :| Only methods for deriving them from the problem.
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
2. Re:Exam answers? by Jose · 2009-09-21 04:47 · Score: 1
  
  you clearly need to upgrade your calculator to the latest TI X-99999 with the hacked firmware, it knows the *answers* to all!
  
  --
  The basic sleazeware produced in a drunken fury by a bunch of UCBerkeley grad students was still the core of BIND. --PV
obligatory by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:25 · Score: 0

7. ???
8. Profit!
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:25 · Score: 0

Actually, if all you want is to transfer files, you can get by with omitting steps 1,3, and 4 from that list.
From a community perspective. by Deathlizard · 2009-09-21 04:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've been working with Ti calcs and the Ti community for years, and Frankly, I feel that Ti have been giving us programmers a slap in the face.
First off, they keep resurrecting the Ti-82 series of calcs with endless versions and case updates while killing off more capable OS designs like the 85 series. I have a feeling the 92 series (which inclueds the 89, 89ti, and Voyage 200) is next.
Then, they remove program editing from their windows app as well as letting it stagnate with documented link bugs still included.
Finally, they release the Nspire. The Nspire is such a leap backward from their previous calcs that they actually had to make a version that emulates the 83. (again with the 82 love) It has a neutered programming language. no draw support. no 3d support, removed math functions, no proper input or output channels, ETC. I don't know who this calculator is going to appeal to. K-12 don't want it cause its more expensive than an 83, Higher education doesn't want it cause it's neutered vs other calcs in it's class and programmers don't want to touch it cause it's basically useless with no SDK or useful programming language to speak of.
I could probably talk about the SDK and it's lack of updates and support as well, but I'd rather let the Ti Flash community programmers do the talking here.
I'm not a fan of the key facoring, because it's just going to make Ti clamp down on the community that keeps their calc business (and my hobby) alive, but I don't blame the Ti Community, Not when Ti listenes more to a 9th grade teacher whining about little Johnny playing games on his calc instead of the professor or engineer thats using his calc as a cheap portable way of processing a complex algorythm or data probe accqsition device.

--
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
1. Re:From a community perspective. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 06:22 · Score: 0
  
  Then, they remove program editing from their windows app as well as letting it stagnate with documented link bugs still included.
  A few years ago there was going to be a new program editor distributed with TI Connect. It supported several of the Z80 models (73, 83, 83+, 86) and all of the 68k models (89, 92, etc...). Unfortunately there were layoffs shortly before the software was to be released. The programmer responsible for that application (that would be me, actually) was let go. I assume that the remaining team members didn't have enough time to finish it.
2. Re:From a community perspective. by Deathlizard · 2009-09-21 07:22 · Score: 1
  
  I remember seeing a beta with the editor but after that I haven't seen anything else. My guess is that they laid off the entire staff since I haven't seen anything past Ti Connect 1.6.
  Regardless, there is no good programming editor for the Ti outside of the archaic Ti-graph link. Some open source versions are ok (such as Daisuke-Edit) but they tend to crash or not get abandoned.
  Did you ever consider writing an open source editor based on your original code, or is the entire code under NDA? I know this and a true 89 data editor would make my day.
  
  --
  In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
3. Re:From a community perspective. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 14:33 · Score: 0
  
  There was a time when TI encouraged the enthusiast community. They even distributed a huge collection of enthusiast-developed software with some of their calculators...
  Until this happened:
  http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/5/53/53866.html
  This is probably when someone realized that the "enthusiast community" was a bunch of kids who didn't have enough common sense to refrain from submitting X-rated programs to TI, and things went downhill from there...
4. Re:From a community perspective. by Deathlizard · 2009-09-24 12:08 · Score: 1
  
  I know I'm replying to this unbelievably late, but here goes.
  I actually have one of these CD's. It was sent to me by ticalc.org for contributing before they pulled them off the shelves. To this day I'm surprised that this thing was released.
  The biggest problem was that ticalc.org wanted the community to audit the games themselves. What you had to do was select the programs you made that you wanted on the CD and authorize ticalc.org to add it to the CD. They wanted the authors to also not authorize any program that had any inappropriate or copyright material in it. Most people given that choice just selected all and went on their way.
  From what was authorized, ticalc.org should of audited the choices. from what I can tell, they either didn't or did a piss poor job of it. Just searching for Mario alone on the disk gets you a couple of hits. The porn was probably a lot harder to find, but It's probably a safe bet it's in the pictures section.
  This is the main reason why ticalc.org has the "report inappropriate content" section in the archives now.
  
  --
  In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
Re:Calculator vs. blonde by adamstew · 2009-09-21 04:43 · Score: 1

Shouldn't it be "At least the calculator can work when the lights are on?"
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by BrokenHalo · 2009-09-21 04:46 · Score: 1

Surely tilp can be compiled for x64?
No HP??? by volpe · 2009-09-21 04:48 · Score: 5, Funny

hp is not supported at all

I that they so shortsighted would be can't believe!
1. Re:No HP??? by arkane1234 · 2009-09-21 06:06 · Score: 1
  
  I that they so shortsighted would be can't believe!
  uhhh.. what?
  
  --
  -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
2. Re:No HP??? by krakass · 2009-09-21 06:20 · Score: 1
  
  RPN, aka Reverse Polish Notation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Polish_notation
3. Re:No HP??? by ancientt · 2009-09-21 06:26 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Polish_notation
  
  --
  B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
4. Re:No HP??? by volpe · 2009-09-21 06:28 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Oh well, I figured everyone would get it. HP Calculators use "Reverse Polish Notation" (RPN), also known as "postfix notation". Unlike ordinary "infix notation" calculators, in which you put the operator between the two operands, HP calculators take both operands followed by the operator, thereby eliminating the need for parenthesizing an expression. So, where you might enter "5 * ( 3 + 4 ) =" on an infix calculator, you'd enter "5 [enter] 3 [enter] 4 [enter] + * " on an HP calculator. Every time you enter a number, it gets pushed on the stack. Every operator pops the top two items off the stack, performs the operation, and pushes the result on the stack.
  One can write English sentences the same way if one considers the verb to be the operator, while the subject and direct object are the two operands. Thus, what I wrote was the RPN equivalent of "I can't believe that they would be so shortsighted!".
5. Re:No HP??? by Khashishi · 2009-09-21 07:05 · Score: 1
  
  RPN is optional in most newer HP calcs.
6. Re:No HP??? by Bill_the_Engineer · 2009-09-21 07:06 · Score: 1
  
  Funny! I have to say it wasn't immediately apparent until after your reply. You left out the operation keys:
  With operation keys it may look like:
  I [enter] believe [can] [not] they [enter] shortsighted [would be] [that]
  Sorry if I kill a good joke...
  
  --
  These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
7. Re:No HP??? by beelsebob · 2009-09-21 07:15 · Score: 1
  
  I just assumed you were a native german speaker and were shoving all the verbs to the end.
8. Re:No HP??? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 07:32 · Score: 0
  
  If you were actually using an HP (instead of spouting of about RPN) of you'd do: "3 [enter] 4 + *"
9. Re:No HP??? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 07:40 · Score: 0
  
  Geek
10. Re:No HP??? by The+Dancing+Panda · 2009-09-21 08:22 · Score: 1
  
  The joke wasn't completely lost, I promise. I chuckled.
11. Re:No HP??? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:32 · Score: 0
  
  So, to summarise, Parent deserves a 'whoosh' plus a <blink> tag
12. Re:No HP??? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:49 · Score: 0
  
  You karma whore are.
13. Re:No HP??? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:58 · Score: 0
  
  I thought you were doing Yoda, for no particular reason.
14. Re:No HP??? by slacker22 · 2009-09-21 08:58 · Score: 1
  
  I love RPN especially on my 12c, it's so much faster than faffing about on one of those natural display type calculators.
15. Re:No HP??? by PCM2 · 2009-09-21 09:01 · Score: 1
  
  RPN is optional in most newer HP calcs.
  ...but you'd be a fool not to switch over to RPN as soon as you open the box. It takes about two weeks to master, after which you'll wonder how you ever used a non-RPN calculator before.
  
  --
  Breakfast served all day!
16. Re:No HP??? by Sulphur · 2009-09-21 10:14 · Score: 1
  
  Do or do not, there is no try.
17. Re:No HP??? by naoursla · 2009-09-21 11:14 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I'm going to try to check your work.
  We can construct a parse tree for a sentence by recursively grouping two groups into a single group. I believe the following is the correct parse tree for your original sentence.
  {I {(can't believe) [that [they ((would be) (so shortsighted))]]}}
  You want verbs to be the operators. "believe" and "be" are the verbs. "can't" and "would" are auxillery verbs. Those would be unary operators that act on a simple verb. But since a verb is acting as an operator, it is tough to enter a verb and then an auxillery. I'll treat the entire verb as a single unit (if I had a 'operate' button instead of requiring a symbol to operate then we could break apart the verb phrases). How does "that" fit in? I'm going to make "that" a unary operator to complete the predicate target. While I'm at it, "so" is an operator on a noun.
  I -> (literal)
  they -> (literal)
  shortsighted (literal)
  so -> ("so" + "shortsighted")
  would be -> "they" + "would be" + "so shortsighted"
  that -> "that" + "they would be so shortsighted"
  can't believe -> "I" + "can't believe" + "that they would be so shortsighted"
  I they shortsighted so would be that can't believe!
  vs
  I that they so shortsighted would be can't believe!
  Pretty close, but I'm going to have to take points off for not considering grouping operations other than S-V-O.
18. Re:No HP??? by Ardipithecus · 2009-09-21 11:57 · Score: 1
  
  you must mean
  3 [enter] 4 + 5 x
  been using it for a while
19. Re:No HP??? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 12:03 · Score: 0
  
  sounds like korean grammer
20. Re:No HP??? by LionMage · 2009-09-21 12:32 · Score: 1
  
  RPN, optional on an HP calculator?
  Heresy, I say!
  (Actually, I think one of the HP calcs I used to own had an infix mode that you could switch to... which I never used.)
21. Re:No HP??? by Machtyn · 2009-09-21 13:27 · Score: 1
  
  If you had written it in a stack, I probably would have understood it better. :^)
  I
  that they
  so shortsighted
  would be
  can't believe!
22. Re:No HP??? by QuoteMstr · 2009-09-21 14:18 · Score: 1
  GNU Calc (runs inside Emacs) is also an RPN calculator, and it's actually damn good:
  Choice of algebraic or RPN (stack-based) entry of calculations.
  Arbitrary precision integers and floating-point numbers.
  Arithmetic on rational numbers, complex numbers (rectangular and
  polar), error forms with standard deviations, open and closed
  intervals, vectors and matrices, dates and times, infinities,
  sets, quantities with units, and algebraic formulas.
  Mathematical operations such as logarithms and trigonometric functions.
  Programmer's features (bitwise operations, non-decimal numbers).
  Financial functions such as future value and internal rate of return.
  Number theoretical features such as prime factorization and
  arithmetic modulo M for any M.
  Algebraic manipulation features, including symbolic calculus.
  Moving data to and from regular editing buffers.
  "Embedded mode" for manipulating Calc formulas and data directly
  inside any editing buffer.
  Graphics using GNUPLOT, a versatile (and free) plotting program.
  Easy programming using keyboard macros, algebraic formulas,
  algebraic rewrite rules, or extended Emacs Lisp.
23. Re:No HP??? by Riven.exe · 2009-09-21 14:37 · Score: 1
  
  One can write English sentences the same way if one considers the verb to be the operator, while the subject and direct object are the two operands.
  It is interesting that Japanese language work in the same way: first you say operands (subject, object, time and place of action etc.) and then operator (verb or "to be"). Add to this hieroglyphic writing similar to math quantification and you get the most math-friendlier language on earth.
24. Re:No HP??? by LakeSolon · 2009-09-21 16:29 · Score: 1
  
  I often read short (and sometimes not so short) sentences right-to-left (backwards) if my eyes happen to be to the right as I scan down from above. This is how I read your post, initially.
  I didn't notice you'd done anything unusual until I paused to consider why your post was scored +5 Funny.
25. Re:No HP??? by volpe · 2009-09-21 20:46 · Score: 1
  
  Obviously, I had to make some simplified assumptions about structure in order for the result to be easily recognizable. Thus, all auxiliary verbs became hard-bound to the main verbs as a unified whole. My goal was to have two such verbs, and only the verbs, be operators. I wanted it to be clear what I was doing, and not have it look like I was merely scrambling the word order. So, in addition to the above simplification, I punted on the word "that".
  I greatly admire your painstaking quest for precision in humor. I salute you.
26. Re:No HP??? by pbhj · 2009-09-22 00:13 · Score: 1
  
  Here's me thinking it was just transliterated Deutsch.
27. Re:No HP??? by snowgirl · 2009-09-22 01:20 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, you missed something, well, actually, you just butchered the English verb phrases into a single operator. Better is to have:
  I they shortsighted so be would believe can't.
  The "that" serves much the same purpose of parentheses in math, in that it takes a sentence as a whole and makes it into a direct object... since there is no ambiguity such as that with RPN, one would be safe to remove it.
  Note the use of unaries!
  
  --
  WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
28. Re:No HP??? by UnknownSoldier · 2009-09-22 03:37 · Score: 1
  
  > It takes about two weeks to master
  Two weeks? My god man, what are you, an English major? :-)
  --
  "No, I don't watch Tell-a-Vision. I don't want to be told-a-vision of someone else's propaganda."
29. Re:No HP??? by PCM2 · 2009-09-23 10:54 · Score: 1
  
  Heh. I said to master. I'm assuming you're going to a math class twice a week, and you'll need to encounter a few different types of problems to really get a feel for how RPN calculators differ from the others you may have used.
  
  --
  Breakfast served all day!
30. Re:No HP??? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-25 03:18 · Score: 0
  
  It's so sad...it really takes away from a joke when you have to explain it.
  (That is, if you have to explain it, you're already doomed.)
  I liked the joke, although, I have to admit, it took me a minute to figure out -why- you
  were using the English equivalent of RPN...but, then, I noticed the "hp" reference. :-)
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 04:52 · Score: 0

You have bigger issues than an x64 driver if your running 7PRo and Vista.....
Just saying.....
Within their legal right by smd75 · 2009-09-21 05:02 · Score: 1

Ahh, see this is where DMCA is bullshit. It is within my leagal right to reverse engineer something, so long as I had no inside information in the process. The DMCA attempted to restrict the process, but should be legal. Why do you think we have competitors, Pepsi did it to Coke, Im pretty sure some computer hardware manufacturer did it to some other manufacturer, im confident some OS developer did it to another... its how the world works, and you cant stop it.

--
Im a troll because I disagree with you.
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Khyber · 2009-09-21 05:04 · Score: 1

#6 would be counter-sue because there is no binding contract or EULA included with the calculator you bought, which means no contract to follow or terms of use to follow, and you have the right to make it work with your OS for the sake of compatibility.

--
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:14 · Score: 1, Informative

Reverse engineering for the purpose of creating compatibility is an exception to the DMCA restrictions. That doesn't mean TI won't sue, but still...
Can the key be distributed to avoid DMCA? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:15 · Score: 1, Interesting

Aside of bad pre
I mean If posting a series of hex numbers constitutes a breach of DMCA because they happens to be a TI's public key, so can these numbers be broken and posted on several websites (a web ring)?
Would still TI claim that I breached DMCA because I used 0xXX on my website?
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Bobb+Sledd · 2009-09-21 05:19 · Score: 1

#7 ???
#8 Profit!!!

--
"They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:34 · Score: 0

Why take the long road? Just get XP Mode from Microsoft. It's a free download and works pretty sweet (Win 7 Pro/Ultimate only).
Streissand It by areusche · 2009-09-21 05:42 · Score: 1

The keys are here http://diomedes.phear.cc/~chronomex/keys.shtml Download at your will!
Stop your whining and moaning - do something! by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 05:51 · Score: 1, Interesting

When something bugs you like this does, go to the top, I say!
Here are the particulars of the head honcho. Let him know how you feel:
Texas Instruments Incorporated
Herbert W. Foster
Manager, Business Services
Educational & Productivity Solutions
Texas Instruments Incorporated
7800 Banner Drive M/S 3918
Dallas, TX 75251 USA
(972) 917-1522 / h-foster@ti.com
IANAL but TI is screwed now by OrangeTide · 2009-09-21 05:58 · Score: 3, Funny

Sending out false DMCA notices opens up TI to some very serious penalties. And this point every member of the team can hire and lawyer and get TI to pay for it, plus be charged with some additional fines. The DMCA in this instance is not a gray area at all. There is no copyrighted being circumvented by this perfectly legal reverse engineering, and a kind of reverse engineering expressly allowed by the DMCA itself.
I am guessing TI executives decided they didn't like something, and forced their lawyers to make a very bad legal decision. Using the DMCA to bully people works, but only if you don't trip over the DMCA itself as TI has done.

--
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 06:08 · Score: 0

This is actually an exception to the DMCA. As the software is technically unusable in the current state due to technological advancement, writing the new driver is an appropriate work around.
Re:They have no choice. by dave024 · 2009-09-21 06:09 · Score: 1

Nope, I believe you can selectively enforce copyrights without risking losing your copyright to it. It is true for trademarks you must make an effort to enforce against people using your trademark.
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 06:19 · Score: 1, Insightful

I'm not sure about you, but I have not had much success getting libusb-win32 to work with x64.
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by spire3661 · 2009-09-21 06:24 · Score: 1

You could Virtualize 32 bit XP (windows 7 has this with a simple download), or dual boot. Other then the extended memory, why are you running a 64 bit OS anyways? I doubt your laptop has > 4 GB of ram.

--
Good-bye
People still use calculators? by kindbud · 2009-09-21 06:29 · Score: 1

Is it because your horse-drawn buggy doesn't have an USB port to charge your PSA/smartphone/iPod?

--
Edith Keeler Must Die
1. Re:People still use calculators? by kindbud · 2009-09-21 06:34 · Score: 1
  
  s/PSA/PDA/
  Speaking of creaky old tech. Storing this extra message is /.'s punishment for STILL - at this very late date in 2009 ffs! - not allowing users to edit posts. It's no wonder they think stories about TI calcs are newsworthy. /. is a haven for cavemen.
  
  --
  Edith Keeler Must Die
2. Re:People still use calculators? by maxume · 2009-09-22 01:09 · Score: 1
  
  It's an attitude, not a technology problem. And it is a good attitude, not a problematic one.
  Also, do you really expect high school and college students to sit in class dicking with the POS calculator on their phone or PDA or whatever?
  
  --
  Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by arkane1234 · 2009-09-21 06:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

"Just saying..."?
wow.. just.. wow...
Here I thought that some dizzy bitch on some newscast saying that would be enough to make everyone realize how stupid it sounds.
I stand corrected.

--
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Calculus by maillemaker · 2009-09-21 06:44 · Score: 1

>What the hell type of math course was that? So what the calculator could do integration but was
>there some sort of "show your work" where you would have to pencil out the non trivial
>integration problems as more than "calculator gave me the answer". I mean when you get
>beyond basic mathematics, computation matters less and concepts start to matter more.
>I really don't buy those asinine rules.
My college career spanned some 17 years and I have taken all of the calculus classes (1, 2, and 3) many times due to failing or as a refresher, so it's hard to say exactly which classes allowed it and which did not.
Early on in my college career, they didn't care if you used calculators because they did not realize they could integrate and differentiate.
The HP calculators can work in "step by step" mode that you can use to "show your work".
In the last calculus class I took last year, Calculus 3, they did not allow calculators at all.

--
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
And why are they so crippled? by maillemaker · 2009-09-21 06:50 · Score: 1

>Graphing calculators aren't a useful tool. They're a contrivance that students have to put up with because of other factors.
You are exactly correct.
A year or so I bought the new HP50G. It is basically the same as the 48GX I had used for years before. Oh the screen is a little bigger, and has a little higher resolution, but technologically it is little different than the 48GX that preceded it.
So I asked myself, "Why didn't they make this thing more like a handheld computer?"
And the answer is: "Because they are already too powerful for college students to be allowed to use them so no one will buy them."
My HP50G is roughly 3 times the size of my cell phone. Imagine all the computational power that could be put into such a device? It could just as easily be a computer running Windows or Linux rather than a dedicated calculator.
But such a device would never be allowed to be used by students taking tests, because it would make every test open-book.
So calculator manufacturers are stuck on a fence. You have to make a calculator powerful enough that students want to use it, but weak enough that it doesn't get banned.

--
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
1. Re:And why are they so crippled? by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-21 07:14 · Score: 1
  
  I'm betting that the 50g cost about a third of what your phone would cost without subsidies.
  Also, the technology under the hood is completely different. Instead of a 4Mhz custom CPU with a 4 bit data bus and half a megabyte of address space, you've now got a 75Mhz ARM SoC that could be running in the 200-266Mhz range if the batteries were bigger. The Linux kernel would run on this machine if it had more RAM. The tech industry has evolved so much that running an emulator on the new hardware is cheaper than fabricating more of the old hardware.
Maybe you missed the part about the DMCA by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 07:32 · Score: 0

This is not a Copyright-infringement lawsuit threat. It's a DMCA "takedown notice", which takes advantage of a particular wording in the DMCA to rapidly suppress information related to copy-protection technique.
They're not claiming copyright over the numbers (which WOULD be silly). They're claiming that the numbers are a key to their access-control system, and could be used to circumvent their copy protection.
QUIT buying TI calculators. When i buy something by zymano · 2009-09-21 07:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

I fucking own it. i will install anything i want on it.
Everyone has a right to the inner workings of something they own god damnit.
Hex math by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:14 · Score: 0

Has anyone hacked the TI 83+ to do hex yet?
I bought one and was very surprised to find it does not do hex or octal math, it did not even occur to me to check that before I bought it, since I did not think anyone would make a calculator without those features.
HAHA FUNNY by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:19 · Score: 0

whoosh
This exact comment has already been posted. Try to be more original...
Yeah right...
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 08:21 · Score: 1, Interesting

TiLP works just fine
You'd lose money with me by Perky_Goth · 2009-09-21 09:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

I bought (well, my parents) two calculators when I needed them because I could install whatever I felt like at the time. Without it, I probably wouldn't have cared.
On the other hand, I see that what you sell is basically what I bought 10 years ago, so that tells me a lot about your business sense.
However, stagnated companies usually die, no matter how much they squelch. At least the OMAP is cool.
You can't copyright a fact. by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 09:31 · Score: 0

The factorization of a particular large number is a fact. You can't copyright facts.
Of course, the DMCA may prohibit the posting of instructions for using this particular fact, but the factorization shouldn't be covered by copyright.
echo /dev/urandom by EverStoned · 2009-09-21 09:57 · Score: 1

TI-83 (Plus): n=82EF4009ED7CAC2A5EE12B5F8E8AD9A0 AB9CC9F4F3E44B7E8BF2D57A2F2BEACE 83424E1CFF0D2A5A7E2E53CB926D61F3 47DFAA4B35B205B5881CEB40B328E58F p=B709D3A0CD2FEC08EAFCCF540D8A100BB38E5E091D646ADB7B14D021096FFCD q=B7207BD184E0B5A0B89832AA68849B29EDFB03FBA2E8917B176504F08A96246CB d=4D0534BA8BB2BFA0740BFB6562E843C7 EC7A58AE351CE11D43438CA239DD9927 6CD125FEBAEE5D2696579FA3A3958FF4FC54C685EAA91723BC8888F292947BA1 e=11
"High end" calculators? by rdebath · 2009-09-21 10:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

I haven't looked a 'high end' calculators in years, I use computers all the time. I kind of knew they were still around but really, these machines are terrible!
My expectations were, a modern cheap processor ... like the arm, possibly underclocked for power consumption; well looks like the HPs have that. An infinite amount of memory; well probably 64M each of RAM and flash. That's infinite for a calculator. And a small, but usable screen, probably 320x200x16(4) grayscale, (colour's supposed to consume a lot more power). And a pair of USB cables that allow you to connect to a PC or an external flash drive. The PC software would let you copy the entire calculator and run and program it on the PC (emulator) or the actual hardware.
Well, These TI's with a z80 processor, sorry you only use a z80 mask nowadays if you're a complete skinflint, "high end" gear uses processors that are easier to program. The 68k sounds reasonable; but it's probably a powerhog compared to the Arm (most 32bit+ processors are).
Probably the thing I'm most shocked about is the screen, those 132x64x2 displays are at least 15 years old and have never been big enough for a reasonable graph. But here we are stuck in the 90's or even the 80's.
Quite simply these machines should be two chips, a screen, a load of buttons, usb connector and a battery.
They should no longer be expensive; but are being sold for about the same prices as the smaller netbooks. Or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP2X_Wiz
They are all so very disappointing.
1. Re:"High end" calculators? by RzUpAnmsCwrds · 2009-09-21 10:58 · Score: 1
  
  The TI-89 runs for weeks/months on a set of AAAs, boots quickly, and has a bunch of nice hardware keys that make it perfect for entering math problems.
  Yes, it's too expensive. But it's a darn useful device.
Cal - Math Problems by c0d3r · 2009-09-21 10:39 · Score: 1

I remember at Cal, they would deliberately give problems to solve that they know the calculator would get wrong.
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 11:24 · Score: 0

5. ???
6. Profit!
A long time ago... by okmijnuhb · 2009-09-21 11:37 · Score: 2, Funny

a classmate showed me a computation on a scientific calculator in about 1983, which caused the calculator to go blank for about 15 seconds before outputting the answer which might have been an error message.
Does anyone know or remember that one?
1. Re:A long time ago... by toddestan · 2009-09-21 13:46 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Probably the factorial function, as that's about the most computationally intensive thing you can do on a non-programmable scientific calculator. Try 69! as that's the biggest you can do assuming that the calculator maxes out at an exponent of 99. Usually takes several seconds to several tens of seconds on slower calculators to run.
2. Re:A long time ago... by rdnetto · 2009-09-21 16:25 · Score: 1
  
  That's actually sort of like a program I wrote a few months ago to perform Euler's method for approximating solutions to differential equations. It was significantly faster than typing each expression into the calculator, so I gave it to a significant no. of my classmates. However, the DE we got in a SAC (it's like a minor exam) was more complicated then the ones I tested it with, and because the calculators we're in exact mode, it kept subbing in the old value as a fraction/exponential mix into the expression, which resulted in some really big expressions. It got to the third stage and froze, and most guys didn't know how to get out of the program.
  I was able to patch it during the SAC, but needless to say, there were a lot of people unhappy about having their calculators freeze in the middle of an exam.
  
  --
  Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
3. Re:A long time ago... by SimonInOz · 2009-09-21 19:00 · Score: 1
  
  1/0 maybe ......... that takes a while. It used to completely blow up my Sinclair Scientific
  
  --
  "Cats like plain crisps"
I'd confirm by KingAlanI · 2009-09-21 12:12 · Score: 1

At my university, the stats professor even joked about allowing us into the exam room with, in his words, a "cheat sheet" (8 1/2" by 11" paper with formulas of the students' choosing - that made sense; choosing which formulae to include on your sheet was essentially part of the test/challenge.)
GP: By Z-tests, I'm assuming you mean using something like this:
http://people.rit.edu/~smam320/Tables/NORMTAB.PDF
That was the first course in the sequence; the 2nd class in the sequence (which I'm in now) is using the same concept, but in a bit more advanced manner; we're in a computer lab with access to Minitab and such.
By contrast, the calculus class (I only took one, didn't need to take more and won't be doing so) was quite anti-calculator. (To their credit, the problems were structured so that doing the grunt work by hand was at least somewhat plausible. :P)
My last econ prof (okay, don't call it a science if you want, but there was definitely applied math), half-jokingly limited us to "ten-dollar calculators"

--
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Interesting thoguhts on notetaking by KingAlanI · 2009-09-21 12:23 · Score: 1

Though I've never used it to crib for tests, I've found that, in general, I don't reference my regular-lecture notes much, but the act of paying enough attention to get them down is the learning exercise to some extent.
I had (and still have) some paid-notetaking jobs; the university has to offer that for certain students as part of the disability-services regulations. I had enough of those that I got in the habit, often taking some notes even if I didn't "have to". (In the past, I oftne just tried to run off of normal memory)

--
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
As a mark of progress... by KingAlanI · 2009-09-21 12:27 · Score: 1

..One of my high school's old-hand math teachers recalls paying 100' hours worth of wages for a calculator, and that was worthwhile for him back then, let alone what you could get for workign ~2 hours these days.

--
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
students like regurgitation tests; network access by bcrowell · 2009-09-21 14:11 · Score: 1

I'm a physics teacher at a community college, and I pretty much agree with your stat professor. All my tests are open notes. The thing is, quite a few students show up in college only knowing how to regurgitate memorized information. The professor's job is to push them into operating at a higher intellectual level, but, frankly, that's hard work for both the teacher and the students, and many students get upset about it. Some teachers prefer to go the easy way and just test memorization.
The real frontier here is that net access is getting more and more ubiquitous. Students think of their iPhone as their all-purpose Swiss army knife -- it's a calculator, it's a phone, it's a stopwatch, it's a flashlight. I should probably start walking around the room during exams and checking whether my students' calculator-ish devices have net access, although I'm not sure I'd always know from looking at them. Do I have to memorize what all the popular cell-enabled PDAs look like, and learn to distinguish them from calculators? Luckily, access to cell phone networks in my classroom seems pretty crummy, and the campus's wifi doesn't reach in there yet. That's going to change, though.

--
Find free books.
It does not run on SINGLE PAIR of AA batteries by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · 2009-09-21 14:50 · Score: 1

AFAIK it runs on 4x AAA batteries

--
New Economic Perspectives
"Clean" Calculator approach by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · 2009-09-21 14:55 · Score: 1

My instructor always bring about 30 "clean" TI-83+ before the exam starts, and distribute to everyone. You are forced to use the "Clean" ones.

--
New Economic Perspectives
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by Aphonia · 2009-09-21 14:58 · Score: 1

I believe the TILP project has x64 drivers. [ tilp.info ] (or atleast Romain LiÃ©vin (author of tilp) has some on ticalc.org )
Technical details: 512-bit RSA key by this+great+guy · 2009-09-21 15:06 · Score: 1

As a crypto geek, I wanted to know more so I read the original post where "FloppusMaximus" disclosed the first key (for TI-83). It turns out that TI was using an RSA key of only 512 bits(!) This is extremely short: keys shorter than 1024 bits are considered unsafe, and in practice the largest semiprime ever factored was 663 bits (see RSA-200 challenge). Why was TI even using such small keys? It can't be cost, chips doing 1024-bit RSA cost less than $1. TI almost deserved what happened, if only to teach them a crypto lesson.
1. Re:Technical details: 512-bit RSA key by mrnobo1024 · 2009-09-21 15:51 · Score: 1
  
  The TI-89 and TI-73 came out in 1998; RSA-155, a number of similar size to the TI keys, wouldn't be factored until 1999.
2. Re:Technical details: 512-bit RSA key by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 16:09 · Score: 0
  
  As I understand it, the DMCA only protected effective copy protection schemes. As this is not "effective", the DMCA should not protect it. Is that the gist of the law?
Re:QUIT buying TI calculators. When i buy somethi by Alien+Being · 2009-09-21 15:52 · Score: 1

I fucking wish I had a mod point. Damn it.
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by ThePengwin · 2009-09-21 15:56 · Score: 1

Yes he has to watch out for the anti-windows comments of the trolls.
Obligatory post of the keys themselves by Pig+Hogger · 2009-09-21 16:34 · Score: 1

...but obfuscated to thwart search engines. Just replace "[roman numeral]" by "arab numeral" (from 0 to 9 - the rest of hex numbers are unmolested). This are the OS signing keys for different Texas Instruments calculators. The key for the TI-[VIII][III] calculator was first published by someone at the unitedti.org forum in this message: http://www.unitedti.org/index.php?showtopic=%5BVIII%5D%5BVIII%5D%5BVIII%5D%5BVIII%5D. He or she needed several months to crack it. The other keys were found after a few weeks by the unitedti.org community through a distributed computing project. The keys make it possible to sign your own operating system for the Texas Instruments calculators. Texas Instruments now contacted several people with a DMCA notice to take down the keys from their websites. Some of the websites which got a DMCA notice are: unitedti.org, brandonw.net and reddit.com. One of these DCMA notices can be found here: http://brandonw.net/calcstuff/DMCA_notice.txt Here are the three keys: TI-[VIII][III] (Plus): n=[VIII][II]EF[IV]00[IX]ED[VII]CAC[II]A[V]EE[I][II]B[V]F[VIII]E[VIII]AD[IX]A0 AB[IX]CC[IX]F[IV]F[III]E[IV][IV]B[VII]E[VIII]BF[II]D[V][VII]A[II]F[II]BEACE [VIII][III][IV][II][IV]E[I]CFF0D[II]A[V]A[VII]E[II]E[V][III]CB[IX][II][VI]D[VI][I]F[III] [IV][VII]DFAA[IV]B[III][V]B[II]0[V]B[V][VIII][VIII][I]CEB[IV]0B[III][II][VIII]E[V][VIII]F p=B[VII]0[IX]D[III]A0CD[II]FEC0[VIII]EAFCCF[V][IV]0D[VIII]A[I]00BB[III][VIII]E[V]E0[IX][I]D[VI][IV][VI]ADB[VII]B[I][IV]D0[II][I]0[IX][VI]FFCD q=B[VII][II]0[VII]BD[I][VIII][IV]E0B[V]A0B[VIII][IX][VIII][III][II]AA[VI][VIII][VIII][IV][IX]B[II][IX]EDFB0[III]FBA[II]E[VIII][IX][I][VII]B[I][VII][VI][V]0[IV]F0[VIII]A[IX][VI][II][IV][VI]CB d=[IV]D0[V][III][IV]BA[VIII]BB[II]BFA0[VII][IV]0BFB[VI][V][VI][II]E[VIII][IV][III]C[VII] EC[VII]A[V][VIII]AE[III][V][I]CE[I][I]D[IV][III][IV][III][VIII]CA[II][III][IX]DD[IX][IX][II][VII] [VI]CD[I][II][V]FEBAEE[V]D[II][VI][IX][VI][V][VII][IX]FA[III]A[III][IX][V][VIII]FF[IV]FC[V][IV]C[VI][VIII][V]EAA[IX][I][VII][II][III]BC[VIII][VIII][VIII][VIII]F[II][IX][II][IX][IV][VII]BA[I] e=[I][I] TI-[VIII][IV] (Plus): prp[VII][VII] factor: [VI][VII]0[VII]0[V]0[VIII][IX][IX]0[V][III][VII][I][VIII][I]0[VI][VI][III][IV][II][VII]0[VII][VI][IX][V][VI]0[III]0[V]0[V][II][I][III][II][IV][V][II][IV][VI][I][III][VIII][VII][IV][III][III][I][VIII][VII][IX][II][V][IX][VIII][VIII][I][IV][IX][V][VIII][II][VI][IV][IX][III][IX][II]0[V][VIII][IX] prp[VII][VIII] factor: [I][VIII][VI][IX][II][III][VII][VII][I][II]00[VII][I][I][II][VIII][IV][VII][VII]0[III][VI][VIII]0[IV][I][V][VII][II][II]0[V][III][II]0[IV][VIII][VI][III][IV][VI][VIII][I][VI][IV][VII][VI][V][II][IV][III][IV]0[II][IV]0[II][II]0[IX][VI][II][IV][VI][VII][VIII][VI]0[V][VI][VIII][VIII][V][IX][III][VIII][I] n=EF[V]FEF0B0AB[VI]E[II][II][VII][III][I]C[I][VII][V][III][IX][VI][V][VIII]B[II]E[IX][I]E[V][III]A[V][IX]BF[VIII]E00FCC[VIII][I]D0[V][VII][V][VIII]F[II][VI]C[I][VII][IX][I]CD[III][V]AF[VI][I]0[I]B[I]E[III][V] [IV][III]AC[III]E[VII][VIII]FD[VIII]BB[VIII]F[III][VII]FC[VIII]FE[VIII][V][VI]0[I]C[V]0[II]EABC[IX][I][III][II]CEAD[IV][VII][I][I]CB[I] p=[IX][IV][IV][VIII][IX]0[I][IV]C[VI][III]CC[IX]E[I]E[I]ADB[I][IX][II]DBBDD[I]F[VII][VIII]F[IX]0A[VI][III]0DA[IX]C[VIII][VI]EFC[IV]CBCA[IV][IV]E[V]B[IV]D[V][IV]D q=[I][IX]D[IV][III][I]AF[II][VII][IX][IV][II][II][IX][VI][II]0B[VIII][VIII][IV]E[III][VII][V]0D[VI][II][II]D[I]C[VII][IV]F[II]E[IV][V][VI][IX]DC[I][V][IV][VIII][VI]FC[VIII]D[V]A[III]BCDFE[II]F[V] d=[II]A[III]E[I]B[II]0[I]0F[III][I][VIII]D[IX]BD[VII]C[VII]E[I][IX][III]00[IX][VIII]0B0[V][V]A0E[II]A[IX][V][V][IV]B[VII][VII]E[VII][I][IV][II]E[II][III]CDF[VII]C[VII]CA[I][III]C[II][III][III]A[III]D[IV][VI][II]FDFC [IX][VI][VIII]B[I]F[IX]CEAF[II]AC[II]CF[III]0[V][I][IV][VII][IX][IX][II]AD[IX]E[VIII][III][IV][I][IX][II]ACEBB[V][I][VII]DB[IX][IX][IV][I] e=[I][I] TI-[VIII][IX]: prp[VII][VI] factor: [II][II][III][I][I][II][IV][V][II][V][VI][III][VII][VI][II][IX][IV][IV][III][I]
1. Re:Obligatory post of the keys themselves by Pig+Hogger · 2009-09-21 16:36 · Score: 1
  
  (reposted - darn default HTML posting) ... but obfuscated to fool search engines and snooping lawyers. Just replace the "[roman numeral]" by the proper "arab numeral". The letters of hex numbers are left the same.
  This are the OS signing keys for different Texas Instruments calculators. The key for the TI-[VIII][III] calculator was first published by someone at the unitedti.org forum in this message: http://www.unitedti.org/index.php?showtopic=%5BVIII%5D%5BVIII%5D%5BVIII%5D%5BVIII%5D. He or she needed several months to crack it. The other keys were found after a few weeks by the unitedti.org community through a distributed computing project. The keys make it possible to sign your own operating system for the Texas Instruments calculators.
  Texas Instruments now contacted several people with a DMCA notice to take down the keys from their websites. Some of the websites which got a DMCA notice are: unitedti.org, brandonw.net and reddit.com. One of these DCMA notices can be found here: http://brandonw.net/calcstuff/DMCA_notice.txt
  Here are the three keys:
  TI-[VIII][III] (Plus):
  n=[VIII][II]EF[IV]00[IX]ED[VII]CAC[II]A[V]EE[I][II]B[V]F[VIII]E[VIII]AD[IX]A0
  AB[IX]CC[IX]F[IV]F[III]E[IV][IV]B[VII]E[VIII]BF[II]D[V][VII]A[II]F[II]BEACE
  [VIII][III][IV][II][IV]E[I]CFF0D[II]A[V]A[VII]E[II]E[V][III]CB[IX][II][VI]D[VI][I]F[III]
  [IV][VII]DFAA[IV]B[III][V]B[II]0[V]B[V][VIII][VIII][I]CEB[IV]0B[III][II][VIII]E[V][VIII]F
  p=B[VII]0[IX]D[III]A0CD[II]FEC0[VIII]EAFCCF[V][IV]0D[VIII]A[I]00BB[III][VIII]E[V]E0[IX][I]D[VI][IV][VI]ADB[VII]B[I][IV]D0[II][I]0[IX][VI]FFCD
  q=B[VII][II]0[VII]BD[I][VIII][IV]E0B[V]A0B[VIII][IX][VIII][III][II]AA[VI][VIII][VIII][IV][IX]B[II][IX]EDFB0[III]FBA[II]E[VIII][IX][I][VII]B[I][VII][VI][V]0[IV]F0[VIII]A[IX][VI][II][IV][VI]CB
  d=[IV]D0[V][III][IV]BA[VIII]BB[II]BFA0[VII][IV]0BFB[VI][V][VI][II]E[VIII][IV][III]C[VII]
  EC[VII]A[V][VIII]AE[III][V][I]CE[I][I]D[IV][III][IV][III][VIII]CA[II][III][IX]DD[IX][IX][II][VII]
  [VI]CD[I][II][V]FEBAEE[V]D[II][VI][IX][VI][V][VII][IX]FA[III]A[III][IX][V][VIII]FF[IV]FC[V][IV]C[VI][VIII][V]EAA[IX][I][VII][II][III]BC[VIII][VIII][VIII][VIII]F[II][IX][II][IX][IV][VII]BA[I]
  e=[I][I]
  TI-[VIII][IV] (Plus):
  prp[VII][VII] factor: [VI][VII]0[VII]0[V]0[VIII][IX][IX]0[V][III][VII][I][VIII][I]0[VI][VI][III][IV][II][VII]0[VII][VI][IX][V][VI]0[III]0[V]0[V][II][I][III][II][IV][V][II][IV][VI][I][III][VIII][VII][IV][III][III][I][VIII][VII][IX][II][V][IX][VIII][VIII][I][IV][IX][V][VIII][II][VI][IV][IX][III][IX][II]0[V][VIII][IX]
  prp[VII][VIII] factor: [I][VIII][VI][IX][II][III][VII][VII][I][II]00[VII][I][I][II][VIII][IV][VII][VII]0[III][VI][VIII]0[IV][I][V][VII][II][II]0[V][III][II]0[IV][VIII][VI][III][IV][VI][VIII][I][VI][IV][VII][VI][V][II][IV][III][IV]0[II][IV]0[II][II]0[IX][VI][II][IV][VI][VII][VIII][VI]0[V][VI][VIII][VIII][V][IX][III][VIII][I]
  n=EF[V]FEF0B0AB[VI]E[II][II][VII][III][I]C[I][VII][V][III][IX][VI][V][VIII]B[II]E[IX][I]E[V][III]A[V][IX]BF[VIII]E00FCC[VIII][I]D0[V][VII][V][VIII]F[II][VI]C[I][VII][IX][I]CD[III][V]AF[VI][I]0[I]B[I]E[III][V]
  [IV][III]AC[III]E[VII][VIII]FD[VIII]BB[VIII]F[III][VII]FC[VIII]FE[VIII][V][VI]0[I]C[V]0[II]EABC[IX][I][III][II]CEAD[IV][VII][I][I]CB[I]
  p=[IX][IV][IV][VIII][IX]0[I][IV]C[VI][III]CC[IX]E[I]E[I]ADB[I][IX][II]DBBDD[I]F[VII][VIII]F[IX]0A[VI][III]0DA[IX]C[VIII][VI]EFC[IV]CBCA[IV][IV]E[V]B[IV]D[V][IV]D
  q=[I][IX]D[IV][III][I]AF[II][VII][IX][IV][II][II][IX][VI][II]0B[VIII][VIII][IV]E[III][VII][V]0D[VI][II][II]D[I]C[VII][IV]F[II]E[IV][V][VI][IX]DC[I][V][IV][VIII][VI]FC[VIII]D[V]A[III]BCDFE[II]F[V]
  d=[II]A[III]E[I]B[II]0[I]0F[III][I][VIII]D[IX]BD[VII]C[VII]E[I][IX][III]00[IX][VIII]0B0[V][V]A0E[II]A[IX][V][V][IV]B[VII][VII]E[VII][I][IV][II]E[II][III]CDF[VII]C[VII]CA[I][III]C[II][III][III]A[III]D[IV][VI][II]FDFC
  [IX][VI][VIII]B[I]F[IX]CEAF[II]AC[II]CF[III]0[V][I][IV][VII][IX][IX][II]AD[IX]E[VIII][III][IV][I
2. Re:Obligatory post of the keys themselves by RockDoctor · 2009-09-21 22:49 · Score: 1
  
  ...but obfuscated to thwart search engines. Just replace "[roman numeral]" by "arab numeral" (from 0 to 9 - the rest of hex numbers are unmolested).
  That sounds like a challenge.
  So, I grab a string from the middle of your post - "FEF0B0AB" - and ... either Google has been DCMA'd, or it hasn't indexed a page with that string in it.
  Oh, hang on, you said that you'd replaced "arab" 0 to 9 with "roman" equivalents, which can't be right because your post includes zeros, and "roman" numbers don't include a zero. So, your statement of what you've done is inconsistent with your data, and I suspect that there's some other problem too.
  Time to RTFA, I think.
  
  --
  Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Re:QUIT buying TI calculators. When i buy somethi by zymano · 2009-09-21 16:40 · Score: 1

damn right.
Re:Screw calculator binaries; how about x64 driver by whoisisis · 2009-09-21 20:15 · Score: 1

> I'm not sure about you, but I have not had much success getting libusb-win32 to work with x64.
Luckily the source is available, along with free and open source compilers for Windows.
Extra points for sending the compiled binaries to the project.
Any good RPN calcs left? by AlpineR · 2009-09-21 22:13 · Score: 1

I love RPN and I have a HP 32 S II (~1994) that I treasure. I keep that at work and wanted another for home.
The closest I could find was an HP 35s which I hate. It requires scrolling just to see the exponent on anything but simple fractions. The STO button requires an extra shift and lacks a variable label. Common operations and constant are scattered irrationally around the keyboard.
Is there a modern calculator that can match the simple elegance of my HP 32 S II?
o rly?! nothing? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-21 23:00 · Score: 0

Real control freak teachers don't even let students use a calculator because there is nothing a calculator can do that a students should not be able to do faster.
23.2^7
1. Re:o rly?! nothing? by clone53421 · 2009-09-22 02:28 · Score: 1
  
  That's a perfectly acceptable answer.
  There's absolutely no reason to write 3617561260.1171968 when 23.2^7 would be sufficient.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
For great justice by Baron+Eekman · 2009-09-22 00:38 · Score: 0

Turn off every sig
You are right! by maillemaker · 2009-09-22 10:03 · Score: 1

It was an HP-28S I had:
http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp28c.htm

--
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
So you can see what you are doing. by maillemaker · 2009-09-22 10:08 · Score: 1

>Why would I choose a netbook over my HP 50g for math?
So you can see what you are doing on a nice high-resolution color display. An on-screen touch-screen keyboard could give you whatever mathematical interface you desired.

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A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
1. Re:So you can see what you are doing. by 644bd346996 · 2009-09-22 13:21 · Score: 1
  
  Touch screens don't work for calculators. Tactile feedback is too important, because most data entry into a calculator comes when the user is looking at stuff written on paper. If you can't touch type even a few digits, then the device is basically too unusable to be worth carrying around for calculating purposes.
  And while high resolution displays would be nice, I don't think it needs to be anywhere as big as on a netbook. A 4-5" display would probably be the largest that could be effectively used by a calculator with capabilities comparable to what's on the market today.
At some point this becomes impossible. by maillemaker · 2009-09-22 10:14 · Score: 1

The problem is that at some point it becomes impossible to learn everything. For example, I spoke with a friend of mine who became a doctor. I said, "I'm amazed with all the advances in medical technology you can learn everything even in 7 years of medical school!" He said, "You can't." At some point, you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that the computer is, in fact, able to do the computations accurately and it doesn't matter if you know how it works or not so long as you can MOVE FORWARD making new progress on past assumptions. If the assumptions are found to be incorrect they can be fixed and software patched. Yes, the disadvantage is you don't fully understand the basics. The advantage is you can concentrate on applying the tools to solving new problems instead of wasting time trying to understand what is already assumed to be correct.

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A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Keys by Anonymous Coward · 2009-09-22 11:09 · Score: 0

Here are the three keys: REMOVE LOWER CASE LETTERS TI-83 (Plus): n=82EF words 4009ED fdsfds 7CAC fdsfd 2A5EE1 fdsfsd 2B5 dsfsdf F8E8AD9A0 AB9 fdsf CC9F4F3E fdfds 44B7E8BF fds fs 2D57A2F dfsfds 2BEACE 83424E1C words FF0D2A5A7 words E2E53CB926 fdsfds D61F3 47D in xanadu FAA4B35 did kubla khan B205B5881 a stately CEB40B328E58F p=B709D3 pleaseure dome A0C decree D2F where alph EC08 the sacred EAFCCF5 river ran 40D8A1 through caverns 00BB38 measureless E5E091D to man 646ADB7B down to a 14D02 sunless 1096FFCD q=B7207 sea BD184E0 so B5A0B898 twice 32AA688 five 49B29E miles DFB03FB of A2E8 ferile 917B1 ground 76504 with F08A walls 96246CB d=4D0 and 534BA towers 8BB2BF griddled A0740B round FB656 and 2E843C7 EC here 7A58A where E351CE1 gardens 1D43438C bright A239DD9927 6CD1 with 25FEBAE sinuous E5D269657 rills 9FA3A3958F where F4FC54C68 blossomed 5EAA9172 many 3BC8888 an F292947BA1 e=11 TI-84 (Plus): prp77 factor: 670 incense 70508 bearing 9905371 tree 810663 and 4270 tehre 76956 where 0305 forests 052132 as 45246 ancient 138743 as 318792 the 5988 hills 1495 infolding 8264 sunny 9392 spots 0589 prp78 factor: 1869237 of 7120071 greenery 12847 she 70368 should 0415722 have 0532048 died 6346 hereafter 81647 there 652434 would 02402 have 2096 been 24678 tile 605 for 6885 such 9381 n=EF5F a EF0B0 word AB6E tomorrow 2273 and 1C175 to 39658 morrow B2E91E5 and 3A59B tomorrow F8E00FC creaps C81D057 out 58F26 this C179 petty 1CD pace 35AF from 6101 day B1E35 43AC3 to E78FD day 8BB8F lifes 37FC8 but FE85 a 601C poor 502E player ABC91 that 32CE struts AD47 and 11CB1 p=9448 frets 9014C6 his 3CC9E1 hour E1ADB upon 192DBB the DD1F78F stage 90A630 and DA9C8 then 6EFC4 is CBCA heard 44E no 5B4 more D54D q=19D431 out AF279 out 422 brief 9620B candle 884E3 tis 750D a 622 tale D1C7 told 4F2E4 by 569D an C1548 idiot 6FC8 D5 full A3BC of DFE sound 2F5 d=2A3E1 and B2010F fury 318D9B signifying D7C7 nothing E193 to 00980 be B05 or 5A0E not 2A955 to 4B77E7 be 142E23 that CDF is 7C7 the CA13 question C233A wither 3D46 tis 2FDFC 96 nobler 8B1F in 9CEAF the 2AC2C mind F305 to 1479 suffer 92AD9E the 834 slings 192ACE and BB5 arrows17DB of 9941 e=11 TI-89: prp76 factor: 22311 of 24525 outraguous 637629443 fortune 18196304 or 52973 to 9 take 487547 arms 051016 against 7130210 a 300957 sea 267082 of 21017 troubles 3784611 prp79 factor: 32 and 26885 by 534240 opposing 147415 end 018248 them 39741010 to 1286362761 die 12861435 to 0056368 sleep 6751110 no 71170873 more 486957 (these are factors of 71995 and 8345686 by 8477 a 3636720 sleep 438651 to 1604722 say 971278 we 8448020 end 65351 the 568433 heartache 07841 and 3780 the 508 thousand 89714332 730 natural 1197055 shocks 213896 that 058379 flesh 93682 is 15373 heir 582308 to 591928 tis 98504505 a 92611 consumation 0529843 devotely 10358 to be18727)
Tactile feedback on touch devices. by maillemaker · 2009-09-24 08:49 · Score: 1

It is quite possible to have tactile feedback with touch screen devices.
I agree the touchscreen does not need to be as big as a netbook. The screen on the HP50G would be fine - if it were high resolution and color.

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A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.