Microsoft Reportedly Poaching Apple Retail Staff

Eugen notes an article up at Ars reporting that Microsoft, besides copying Apple's retail formula, is now going after Apple's retail employees. "Microsoft is reportedly trying to hire away Apple's retail employees by bribing them with... wait for it, better wages. 'People that have spoken to The Loop on condition of anonymity confirm that Microsoft has contacted a number of Apple's retail store managers to work in their stores. In addition to "significant raises," the managers have also been offered moving expenses in some cases.' It doesn't end there: once the ex-Apple managers have jumped ship, they are asked to contact their top sales employees at their old workplaces and offer them similar positions at Microsoft's retail stores, also with higher pay. ... If you work in an Apple store near a soon-to-be-opened Microsoft store, apparently the software giant is giving you a free pass; no looking through job postings necessary!"

Comments

Moving expenses are already standard

[ShadowRangerRIT]

Every position above janitor in Redmond comes with either:
A) A paid for move, arranged for you, including having all your stuff packed and unpacked, and a hotel to stay in for a month while house hunting
or
B) A lump sum cash payout to do it yourself (mostly attractive to fresh out of college types with little to move)
I suspect they already had a similar program for retail. It's not a new benefit.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[palegray.net]

I think it's worth noting that Microsoft isn't unique in this respect; many companies make similar offers (including my present employer). It's a small price to pay to get the right candidate hired on. Professionals should always ask about these sort of arrangements before accepting any offer of employment where a move would be required.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[ShadowRangerRIT]

Off topic, while the above comment seems to have posted, it lagged for several minutes while posting (in FF3.5) before I eventually reloaded the page fresh. Despite appearing here, it doesn't appear in my personal comments history (then again, I expected the forced reload to eat the comment, so I suppose something is better than nothing). Still very odd. Something going funky with the comments JS?

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[palegray.net]

Something going funky with the comments JS?

Welcome to Slashdot 2.0.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never seen a retail job offer moving expenses.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[egregious]

I think this is more like McDonald's hiring Burger King managers than the usual tech employment, hence ne. This is retail, not what most /. readers would think as managerial positions.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Anonymous Coward]

Well atleast - Apple and MSFT didnt have an unfair (illegal ? ) 'we wont poach each other employees' agreement that the 'Do no evil' company had with Apple.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Divebus]

This is a lot like luring Lexus or Mercedes sales people to sell Ramblers. It won't take long before many realize they're selling junk yard class equipment and start sending customers back to the Apple stores.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[dontmakemethink]

If Microsoft's staff was limited to the talent pool of a town of ~50,000, that would explain a lot...

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[ozmanjusri]

Apple and MSFT didnt have an unfair (illegal ? ) 'we wont poach each other employees'

Maybe, but that's 'cos it doesn't make much sense to poach Microsoft's, while poaching Apple's is just playing into their hands (especially in white wine sauce).

They should be boiling them in oil, at the very least.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Omestes]

Stop OS trolling,

The current offering from MS aren't bad, perhaps not quite as good as the offerings from Apple, but they are getting close. The only real difference in these stores is that Apple offers labeled hardware, and MS offers 3rd party hardware (PC wise). The software offerings are mixed, Win7 is about as good as OS X (pains me a bit to say that), the Zune is basically what Apple is pushing (limited storage space, lots of superfluous extras), without the benefit of iTMS and iTunes (which is sad), but hardware-wise about the same. Most of MS's 1st party software is much better than Apple's (sans iLife). All of the peripherals are the same, whether in an Apple or MS store.

What is the difference, besides the fact you like Apple and hate MS? Same hardware, different brands. Different OSs, same quality (good). Roughly the same quality non-OS software. Both mostly closed source and proprietary. Both giant, monolithic, corporations. So where is the basis for the "Lexus/Rambler" analogy? The only real difference, outside of roughly similar OSs, is one has an Apple logo, and the other has a... 3rd party logo.

No, before the flames come in, I'm not a MS "fanboi" (please add a fair amount of scathing derision to the term); I'm currently running a MacMini, an Ubuntu laptop, and a Windows box (currently Vista, but first in line for Win7, the first MS OS that I've actually liked), I spend roughly equal time on all of them, and like all of them roughly equally, and find all of them about equal in general stability and security (given proper know how, and lack of ignorance). I find both MS and Apple's business model to be equally sad, as well (imagine their places switched). I personally find any level of OS elitism to be a rather depressing sentiment on the behalf of the person expressing it. I see anyone who claims any OS is better as a blanket statement about of the same intellectual caliber as a girl I once know who had a Nike tattoo... No, this isn't a compliment.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Culture20]

It happens all the time. I'm sure they could do an audit of histories to actual posts to see how often.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[aliquis]

Every position above janitor in Redmond

So where does that leave former Apple retail store managers?

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[warrigal]

If I was approached I'd keep in mind that this is the same Microsoft who've just laid off 5000 staff to get their balance sheet looking good. Other staff are being attrited by giving them bad reviews. If this MS Shop idea doesn't pan out, and MS doesn't have a recent history of Good Ideas, we can expect the whole thing to be thrown overboard.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Firethorn]

If I was approached I'd keep in mind that this is the same Microsoft who've just laid off 5000 staff to get their balance sheet looking good.

I'd say that that's a fundimental responsability of a business - the ultimate goal of a business is to make money, after all. It should do so in a responsable mannor that will have it still earning money in a decade.

Businesses have to 'right size' every so often, and if they're not in the habit of doing it continuously, you get big layoffs like this. Microsoft has how many divisions, it's fingers in how many pies? They do an OS, business applications to include server side databases, client side applications, games, hardware, internet, advertising, game consoles, games for said consoles, etc...

It's quite possible for one division to be laying people off while another is hiring - and trying to transfer/cross train them isn't always the best option. During the economic crisis, a lot of the layoffs were due to cancelled/broken contracts that Microsoft had employed the people in anticipation of performing. Without said contracts, it makes little sense to keep the people employed if the business slump isn't expected to be relatively brief.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention they didn't really fire anyone from about 2002 till their 2009 layoffs.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Anonymous Coward]

That happens to me a lot, usually while frosty pissing. If you open the link in a new page/tab, it will take you to the old style comment post screen (you know, the one that works and doesn't take 5 minutes to port scan your computer first)

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[mcgrew]

Stop OS trolling

Somebody mod this guy "funny", as it's a great OS troll! The parent (who may have been responding to the wrong comment), not the GP, who simply said "I think this is more like McDonald's hiring Burger King managers than the usual tech employment, hence ne. This is retail, not what most /. readers would think as managerial positions". Not a word about anybody's OS.

Then the parent goes on trolling some more: What is the difference, besides the fact you like Apple and hate MS?

Maybe you could link to the comment you meant to respond to so I won't think you're trolling? Mind you, I don't disagree with much of what you say but it's completely out of context.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[mdwh2]

I agree, and I'm failing to see the news in the story here - the pro-Apple spin ("poaching" etc) is painfully apparent.

(I bet if this was the other way round, the story would be citing it as proof that employees want to work for Apple, and saying that therefore Apple were great employers, and how nice they are.)

I'm also confused at the snide dig of "besides copying Apple's retail formula" - so they invented some special retail now? My, is there anything that Apple didn't "invent"?

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Dragonslicer]

This is a lot like luring Lexus or Mercedes sales people to sell Ramblers.

That's the post that he was responding to. Not sure what it looks like to you, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and blame Slashdot's marvelous CSS.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Runaway1956]

I'd pick a Rambler over a Lexus or Mercedes, any day. I guess you're pointing at the discrepancy in quality, so the Mac sales people are moving up to Microsoft? Am I right?

Meanwhile - I wait for the "Slow down Cowboy" message, and the advert asks if my music is having an identity crisis. I'd have to say that most music today is easy to identify. There are only two popular sounds - ghetto boys that can't sing, and whiny bitches that can't sing. It really is hard to identify any specific song. But, I won't bother with any software that offers to help identify it - I just won't listen to it.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[JWW]

Ah, poaching is not pro-Apple spin. It's what Microsoft is doing and more power to them for doing it.

I know when I look to my former employers to hire away people I call it poaching, cause thats what it is.

But as is so often stated today "its only business," so tough luck if people leave.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[JWW]

Its definitely something these Apple folks should keep in mind, because the path back to Apple will be pretty rocky if the MS stores fail and they end up on the street.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[forgotten_my_nick]

I think your talking about non-contract position? MS are renowned for not employing fulltime people. Instead fobbing them off to the a consultancy agency so they can drop them without having to incur the usual stuff (eg. redundancy).

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[MrNaz]

Frosty pissing is painful. I prefer fist posting.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Yamata no Orochi]

The guy mentioned an analogy in the post he was responding to. The Lexus/Rambler analogy.

READ.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Herkum01]

They may not be unique, but it certainly is not common. I have had to move for 3 jobs and and had interviewed for at least 3 jobs. None of them offered and all the jobs for outside my immediate area stated it up front. It was a rare company for me(I am a programmer) that was willing to offer moving reimbursement.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[fafaforza]

They don't have to leave. You just have to offer them a competing salary or some other benefit. That's the basis that both of these companies operate on, no? Market rule and supply and demand.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Divebus]

Thank you. I was thinking the same thing.... pretty defensive and wondered what I said to deserve that. Maybe he's only objecting to the "Rambler" comparison and he thinks it should be closer to "Buick". I'm just saying the former Apple store people are in for a surprise.

Can't help but chuckle at the potential situations. They'll be saying "this big fat laptop that squeaks when you pick it up is a great value, especially with all those stickers on it" - and then hold the straight face for up to 10 seconds. They'll be showing game consoles to people with their hats on backwards and their pants around their knees, a big change from people who go to wine tastings and listen to NPR. They'll be selling Enterprise software to people in business suits... oh, wait... their IT staff buys that in bulk elsewhere. They'll be selling power strips with "Works with Windows" stickers on them. They'll be standing next to the Surface with a rag and bottle of Windex all day. They'll be selling Zunes to parents about to embarrass their kids - although the Zune HD looks pretty nice, so maybe not... They'll be selling WinMo phones with "what were they thinking" interfaces. Of course, there's all the most popular PC software like "Clean My Registry" and "Remove My Spyware" and "Speed Up My PC"... ok, that was a cheap shot.

Pretty smart, though. The former Apple staff can help both people switching back to Microsoft products. Stealing ideas used to be so subtle. I never thought I'd see the day when Microsoft chases Apple down the street yelling "ME TOO! ME TOO!"

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Divebus]

I'd pick a Rambler over a Lexus or Mercedes, any day.

Ramblers were great cars back in the day. Parts were cheap and easy to find - the junkyards were full of them.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[russotto]

Pretty smart, though. The former Apple staff can help both people switching back to Microsoft products. Stealing ideas used to be so subtle. I never thought I'd see the day when Microsoft chases Apple down the street yelling "ME TOO! ME TOO!"

You must have missed the first time they did that, April 20, 1985.
(release of Windows 1.0)

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[palegray.net]

That's really odd. I had precisely the opposite experience when I was deciding between several job opportunities earlier this year. I'm a developer too (and sysadmin and tech writer for Linux systems); what sort of development do you do?

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[mcgrew]

blame Slashdot's marvelous CSS.

Oops, that's exactly what happened. The post he responded to was invisible at the time (marked "funny" now), and it looked like this was the comment.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I agree, and I'm failing to see the news in the story here - the pro-Apple spin ("poaching" etc) is painfully apparent.

A lot of people on Slashdot do like Apple products and even some of the other things the company does. That said, I don't see any bias in the discussion here, or at least none that is not justified. "Poaching' is a normal term in the industry, not a slur against MS. I've seen plenty of comments about Google and other companies poaching employees. It just means hiring people away from your competitors or people in a similar field.

I bet if this was the other way round, the story would be citing it as proof that employees want to work for Apple, and saying that therefore Apple were great employers, and how nice they are.

This is called empty speculation. You have nothing to support this assertion.

I'm also confused at the snide dig of "besides copying Apple's retail formula" - so they invented some special retail now?

Umm, you don't think opening stores with a "Guru bar" where people can come and ask experts questions from within the retail store is not just a little bit influenced by Apple retail stores where you can go to a "Genius bar" and ask experts questions? I'm sorry but you have to be biased as hell to not see that as copying Apple's retail ideas.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[sbeckstead]

Wake up and smell the coffee, Microsoft has been making a fortune off of Apple's back since they released Windows 1.0 Oh that wasn't original either. The best Ideas that Gates ever had were to make a Basic interpreter for every Microcomputer ever made and to take the deal with IBM and to take the deal with Apple. They screwed IBM and then screwed Apple in that order. First a loophole in the IBM contract left them the rights to DOS. If it weren't for a loophole in a contract with Apple Windows would have been Apple's. So yeah poaching applies here. But it's hardly an original idea at that.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[natural1]

This is a great opportunity for Apple to send a bunch of moles to the MS stores and sink their retail venture. "Sir, I think that your need would be better served by an Apple..."

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[The Archon V2.0]

I think it's worth noting that Microsoft isn't unique in this respect; many companies make similar offers (including my present employer).

My last one too, sort of. One manager poached in some good people from his old job when he was hired, and his bosses loved him for it. A year later he found a better job, and poached almost all of them back out, with a few of ours added! I imagine the HR equivalent of Katamari Damacy, where eventually he'll have enough people to form his own company.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Mikkeles]

'Umm, you don't think opening stores with a "Guru bar" where people can come and ask experts questions from within the retail store is not just a little bit influenced by Apple retail stores where you can go to a "Genius bar" and ask experts questions?'

Certainly not invented by Apple.

This used to be standard operating procedure in most shops (with the broad exception of department stores, and even not always then) about 30 years ago. The shopper expected the clerks to have some knowledge of what they were selling and could get useful advice.

That changed when it was discovered that people would rather pay less for the wrong thing (and little service) than a reasonable amount for good advice and the more appropriate thing.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Grishnakh]

It depends on your job, the company you're applying to, and the current state of the economy. Back in 2000, when I got a job with Intel as an engineer with 2 years' experience, I got a $13k moving bonus. Of course, this was back during the boom, right before the crash.

After that, my subsequent jobs didn't offer any relocation bonus (luckily, they were all local to me).

Smaller companies typically do not offer relo; it's only common with large companies I think, and you're probably not going to see it very much in today's economic climate (I'm starting to get sick of that phrase), since it's an employer's market. And of course, it also depends on your particular job and how in-demand it is. If they're having a hard time getting prospective employees to move out to upstate NY or wherever, they may offer it as an enticement.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Dallas Caley]

yea thats completely true, i know this because i used to be a "guru" in a music store (which is all but extinct now) this is not an Apple specific idea. My question is why aren't all the employee's gurus?

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Anonymous Coward]

For those slow on the pickup - Ramblers were great because they could be found on the junkyard.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

Good post but I take exception with one thing:

Zune is basically what Apple is pushing (limited storage space, lots of superfluous extras), without the benefit of iTMS and iTunes (which is sad), but hardware-wise about the same

The Zune desktop software in my opinion is vastly superior to iTunes. It's prettier, has a bunch of 'social' features (which sound stupid, but it's actually cool to see what your friends are listening to), and, in general, faster. I've heard that iTunes isn't such a bloated pile of crap on Mac OS, but I can't verify that.

Where the Zune HD falls short is on the device experience. It's every bit as capable as the iPod touch when it comes to playing music or movies (and perhaps even better), but the iPod touch has 70k+ apps. The iPod touch has real games from real developers (e.g SimCity); the Zune has a couple of games from Microsoft. The iPod touch has SSH clients; the Zune doesn't. The iPod touch has an email app, calendar, and other nice utilities; the Zune doesn't.

That's the problem with the Zune. The Zune HD is a superior device to anything that Apple has ever made, excluding the iPod Touch. But that's the problem - they aren't competing with the Nano, they're competing with the Touch. And they fall short.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Lunzo]

In retail, a large proportion of the workforce are casual or part time employees e.g. students, mothers with young children who want short hours etc. If you're only working one or two shifts a week it's pretty hard to build up the detailed knowledge of your store's products.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Dullstar]

So if an operating system was written to crash on schedule, it would be equally as good as every other operating system? Or an OS coded so poorly, when you tried to turn it on , it would say "Boot Error" no matter who the person was? I actually don't know if any OS's in existence do that. Anyways, just sayin'.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[MacWiz]

I personally find any level of OS elitism to be a rather depressing sentiment on the behalf of the person expressing it.

What if you just like one of them more than the others because it works best for the tasks you're asking it to do? Otherwise, why would you have a Mac, Ubuntu and Windows? They all have their strengths and weaknesses. For other people, their preference is a reflection of their environment -- it's the only thing they've ever used, because that's what they use at work.

I have a distinct preference, with a boatload of reasons why. We have a story here about MS trying to steal Apple's staff. As a result, my preferences color my perception of the story.

I'm getting tired of being called an elitist just to deflect criticism. The computer realm seems almost as bad as the political one. Am I an elitist because I prefer a Les Paul over a Strat? Or a Harley over a Suzuki? Chevy Truck over a Dodge?

The facts are that almost everything Microsoft sells was a stolen idea in the first place that they didn't get quite right, so this is just a natural continuation of a 25-year practice. I'd be willing to bet that the Guru Bar is going to spend the majority of its time doing security patches and re-installed trashed systems. Over, and over and over...

Any Apple employees Microsoft can steal aren't Mac people in the first place, so it's no great loss to the Genius Bar. That may sound elitist, but if you go to a Harley shop, you expect to find someone who knows something about Harleys -- and you don't expect him to show up riding a Vespa.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Mike Buddha]

Oh please. The best idea Bill Gates ever had was to make a third rate product a world standard, and that had little or nothing to do with Apple. Apple's OS has been moot since 1995. They had an opportunity to rule the world, Apple had the best product, without question, for 11 years, and they parlayed that into a 10% market share at their heighth. Great job, Steve.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Mike Buddha]

It's more like luring people who sell Toyotas with big whale tail spoilers and carbon fiber-looking hoods over to sell plain Toyotas. When they realize how many more people want to buy regular Toyotas, they'll be jumping for joy. Oh, what a feeling!

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Omestes]

Otherwise, why would you have a Mac, Ubuntu and Windows? They all have their strengths and weaknesses. For other people, their preference is a reflection of their environment -- it's the only thing they've ever used, because that's what they use at work.

You, obviously, are correct in this. I wasn't stating, though, that having a preference was bad. Preferences, as you state, is completely normal. But, on the flip side, preferences doesn't say too much on their own, nor do they really state the overall quality (in an objective sense) of an object, or people with opposing preferences. I can say I prefer chocolate ice-cream, and you really can't argue, much make character judgments based on this. I cannot say "I like chocolate ice-cream, and everyone who likes vanilla is stupid".

This is what the OS flame war generally is. It boils down to "my choice is better". as opposed to "my choice is better, for me." The former is dressed up like an falsely objective statement, the latter is truthful.

The person I was replying too didn't say "I prefer Macs over Windows", they made a general statement of the quality of the OSs. This statement is an objective statement (okay-okay analogy), and not one of mere preferences. Being that they didn't want to actually back up their statement, I have a feeling that it comes down to; "I use x, therefore x is vastly superior to y". Personal cognitive dissonance doesn't make a fact.

I'm getting tired of being called an elitist just to deflect criticism. The computer realm seems almost as bad as the political one. Am I an elitist because I prefer a Les Paul over a Strat? Or a Harley over a Suzuki? Chevy Truck over a Dodge?

No. But you are one if you decide that your preference is the universally best one, and that not choosing as you do reflects negatively on the character of others. I didn't use the term to deflect criticism (I, like you, am sick of the term in the political arena). They didn't criticize (in any meaningful way) MS products, and I don't have any stake in them to be offended by such a statement. Nor did they really have anything meaningful to say about TFA. They just basically said "Apple products are far superior to MS products, and thus the people they poached will be dissatisfied". This statement has no content outside of saying "Microsoft sucks, Apple rules", which is trite and boring.

Any Apple employees Microsoft can steal aren't Mac people in the first place, so it's no great loss to the Genius Bar. That may sound elitist, but if you go to a Harley shop, you expect to find someone who knows something about Harleys -- and you don't expect him to show up riding a Vespa.

I just don't know what a "Mac person" is. I grew up using Windows, then decided I liked Macs better once OS X came out (OS 9 was pretty sad, technologically), so used them, almost exclusively, throughout college. After college I had some bad experiences related to the Intel switch, and a string of bad hardware, so I went back to Windows and PCs. So what am I? Am I a "Windows person", or a "Mac person"? My girlfriend has the same story, she used Macs for her entire life, up until recently when she started getting a bit disillusioned, is she a "Mac person"? While I currently use Windows and Linux more than OS X, I probably still know more about Apple products than most Geniuses. Using the term "person" makes it sound like this actually means something, like a trite choice like what OS you like best actually reflects on your personality. You might not mean it that way, but that is how it sounds.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[sbeckstead]

Yes Apple had the best product which is why Microsoft stabbed them in the back when they were contracted to write Office for the Mac in 1984. Office for the PC didn't exist until 1987. Because of that contract Microsoft was given the keys to the Apple OS and managed to write Windows and win the law suit that would have shut it down. So anything that Microsoft did after 1984 has everything to do with Apple. And windows '95 was equivalent to Mac's os' features in 1987.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[MacWiz]

But you are one if you decide that your preference is the universally best one, and that not choosing as you do reflects negatively on the character of others.

Again, I can agree with you on this. I'm not trying to be a troll. My guitarist is a stockbroker. He uses Windows because it's the best way to go for that job. I don't think less of him for it. It has nothing to do with his character.

I just don't know what a "Mac person" is.

If I were going to be a smart-ass, my answer would be, "Well, there you go..." But it goes to understanding my statement about it being no great loss for those who are snatched by MS.

I was dragged into using Macs while employed at a newspaper, where we had been sending stories to a Compugraphic typesetting machine, using markup language similar to html, in a primitive sort of way. At the time, the reason we were given was typography and accurate onscreen rendering of graphics and page layout. Compared to Macs, Windows type simply looked like crap.

The second most important issue was that Macs could recognize and read most Windows files, but Windows couldn't read Mac files. Incompatibility was not an option, as our information was accumulated from several sources (but we never could help anyone out that had the large-size floppy disks).

Eventually, I became a Mac person, but not right away, even though we saved 6 hours the first week.

A Mac person is someone who can explain honestly, sincerely and succinctly why they would never consider using anything else. It has nothing to do with you or my opinion of your standing. It's not the same as being a fanboy, which is just cheerleading. A Mac person would rather not argue about the OS choice either, but we think Microsoft is inept. We find that funny and are compelled to laugh at it, which is exactly what we would do if they asked us to work for them.

Old enough to remember Grandpa McCoy's (Walter Brennan) catchphrase? -- "No brag, just fact..."

The Mac I'm using right this minute was purchased in 1998. Haven't had to re-install the system for years. No component failures. I take it places to record music, set it up, tear it down, go somewhere else to do vocals, set it up, tear it down, throw it in the back seat. It's like the freakin' Energizer bunny. My Windows-using friends have gone through at least four PCs, some (the gamers) as many as six. Add in the cost of security issues, viruses and wasted time in service of the system software instead of the task at hand and, over the long haul, I just can't afford to use anything but a Mac.

Maybe saying I'm a Mac person is merely a reflection of my thinking process and how I approach problem-solving and creativity. Windows always makes me feel like the machine is in charge of what I can or can't do and what format I can do it in. I can use Windows, but I don't "get" it; everything seems unnecessarily complicated. It always seems to get in the way of capturing creativity while you stop and try to figure out why your computer is not cooperating, whereas the Mac always seems to enable the creative process

But that's just my opinion.

That's kind of intangible, but it's the most important thing other than the price. Sometimes, more important.

Re:Moving expenses are already standard

[Omestes]

Pardon me for continuing this discussion, but I find it rather interesting.

A Mac person is someone who can explain honestly, sincerely and succinctly why they would never consider using anything else. It has nothing to do with you or my opinion of your standing. It's not the same as being a fanboy, which is just cheerleading. A Mac person would rather not argue about the OS choice either, but we think Microsoft is inept. We find that funny and are compelled to laugh at it, which is exactly what we would do if they asked us to work for them.

I agree with your assessment of "fanbois." Though this all still boils down to the "for you" statement. Don't get me wrong, I loved my Mac, but after certain factors it stopped being... perhaps not useful... but enjoyable. I still recommend Macs to everyone I know who asks me advice in what computer to purchase, and I still miss OS X previous to the Intel switch. My favorite computer of all the years I've been computing is still my old G4 Powerbook, if its HDD didn't die (not Apple's fault), I would still be using it.

That said, Windows still isn't that bad. The comparison is slightly flawed, as well. I had the "same" PC from around 1992 until around 2003, though the components changed; not so much because of failure as incremental upgrade deals. Outside of the old Mac towers, this isn't what Apple was shooting for, so there is a bit of apples and oranges there. Some people actually like mucking around in their internals, it might not be necessary, but some people like it. Right now I'm maintaining a PC bought around the year 2000 (350ish MHZ, 320Mb of RAM) running XP, for example, it works fine, though (just like I assume your 1998 Mac does) it runs into hardware limitations from time to time.

Everything since XP has been stable. Granted the opening year of Vista was a bit bad (thanks to the 3rd party option), but not worse than OS 10.1 was. Win7 and Snow Leopard are comparable, and it just boils down to what you like.

Windows always makes me feel like the machine is in charge of what I can or can't do and what format I can do it in.

Even while I loved my Mac, I felt the same about it as you do Windows. I was in university, so there as some problems with formats. Hardware-wise most Macs have this too, as does OS X's lack of personalization features (Apple's way, or Stardock's way).

I can use Windows, but I don't "get" it; everything seems unnecessarily complicated. It always seems to get in the way of capturing creativity while you stop and try to figure out why your computer is not cooperating, whereas the Mac always seems to enable the creative process

I'm not arguing that you should switch to Windows; Windows requires some time to get things arraigned to your liking. As an analogy: you just got hired at a new job that supplies you with a workspace, it takes a bit of time to get it "just right". Linux is a bit worse in this (or better), where you have the whole damn office building to set up to your optimal environment (perhaps even the whole economy... at times). But some people like it that way, and would argue it makes their OS of choice more "powerful."

Apple, after a bit, pissed me off that I could optimize my environment, to my personal style. This, again, isn't an objective measure.

Sorry for the rambling style. I can't quite grasp quantifying the sentiment of "I completely agree with you, but your wrong", in a short, concise, statement.

And, best of all...

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll be given forged paperwork and identification so they can still tell friends, family and potential employers that they work for Apple.

Re:And, best of all...

[jcr]

They should be giving out AAPL stock options, too.

-jcr

That's the market.

[palegray.net]

I wouldn't go for it (and I don't work for Apple), but money is money I suppose. For many, job satisfaction outweighs wages, to a certain point. There's also the time already invested in the current position to consider; even if you're not completely satisfied with your current gig, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

Re:That's the market.

[Quothz]

I wouldn't go for it (and I don't work for Apple), but money is money I suppose. For many, job satisfaction outweighs wages, to a certain point. There's also the time already invested in the current position to consider; even if you're not completely satisfied with your current gig, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

That's all true, but there's something to be said for getting in on the ground floor. Microsoft is trying its best to recruit the top salesfolk, and these're guys and gals who might well have their eyes on management slots. Joining a new, well-funded operation can be a good lure for the upwardly mobile.

Re:That's the market.

[tlhIngan]

I wouldn't go for it (and I don't work for Apple), but money is money I suppose. For many, job satisfaction outweighs wages, to a certain point. There's also the time already invested in the current position to consider; even if you're not completely satisfied with your current gig, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

An interesting thing is, Apple pays really well for retail - I believe the starting wage is $12/hr if you're just floor sales, and I believe the Geniuses get paid starting at $15+/hr. (Retail jobs normally pay a tiny bit above minimum wage). It's not high pay, but it's quite well off for retail stores.

Microsoft must be paying a pretty penny more to lure people away. Makes me wonder how many people Microsoft and Apple turn away because they're attracted to the pay. I don't know how much Costco pays (they're considered the best retail chain to work for - pay and benefit wise...).

Re:That's the market.

[poetmatt]

Under a certain wage level, making more money can add substantially more happiness and freedom than simply being happy with what you're doing. YMMV of course, and being extremely unhappy with what you're doing can be exceptions too.

Re:That's the market.

[eggnoglatte]

I know MS isn't particularly liked around these parts, but how exactly do you conclude that these people will be less happy at MS than at Apple?

This is retail we are talking about. Sales people tend to be extremely flexible as to the product they try to sell. Its not like they actually have to use the products they sell.

Re:That's the market.

[gad_zuki!]

>the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

In capitalism there is no devil, just your worth vs. what you can get in the market. I see a lot of sharp kids in the Apple store and theyre making what? 10-12 dollars an hour? If MS or whomever offers 15/hr then they should go for it. Both are faceless profit driven corporations who create and market products. Dont let emotions get in the way of a smart decision.

Re:That's the market.

[palegray.net]

"The devil you know is better than the devil you don't" is a common expression. It means that given a choice between two entities that are described as you just proposed, it's frequently a smarter choice to stick with the deal you've already got. It has nothing to do with emotions.

Re:That's the market.

[BikeHelmet]

Starting wage is over $17/hr at a nearby Costco. (I'm in BC, Canada)

Apparently it goes up quite quickly beyond that. Certainly makes Walmart's starting wages look horrible!

Re:That's the market.

[palegray.net]

I concluded no such thing, and merely made the observation that if someone is already happy with his job, it's frequently a smarter choice to stick with the current deal. It's a personal choice, of course. That said, giving up a stable gig for an unknown in a shaky job market might not be a great move. I'd say the same thing if the situation were reversed (Apple hiring Microsoft employees).

I don't work for Apple or Microsoft, and I'm pretty practical when it comes the merits of both companies' platforms (I'm pretty far from a fanatic either way). There is one point that you seem unaware of, however. In Apple's case, I have yet to meet an Apple Store employee who doesn't actively use the products.

Re:That's the market.

[Falconhell]

Money can't buy happiness, but it can get a reasonable facscimilie.

Re:That's the market.

[rolfwind]

That's all true, but there's something to be said for getting in on the ground floor. Microsoft is trying its best to recruit the top salesfolk, and these're guys and gals who might well have their eyes on management slots. Joining a new, well-funded operation can be a good lure for the upwardly mobile.

You also have to consider the future of the company - has Apple shot its load, or are there other must-have products in the pipeline? And a Microsoft store? Ever heard of Gateway stores?

The entire reason for Apple stores were those tiny niches at a CompUSA and other places, where Apple was relegated to the background as an afterthought. They wanted a place to showcase their products and not be presented as second-fiddle or second-tier. Also, it's a place for people to play and gawk at their stuff, play toys for gadget geeks.

Microsoft may have some things, but Xbox and Zune is at every Walmart. What exactly do they have to showcase that isn't at the big box stores (Yeah, I know ipods/iphone is at walmart, but the notebooks aren't...)

Re:That's the market.

[Anonymous Coward]

because it makes more happy to have beautiful things around than ugly ones. For example. Or happy customers than angry ones. ;-)

Re:That's the market.

[fireylord]

YMMV of course

your money may very well vary!

Re:That's the market.

[mlts]

Gateway stores would have been far more successful if you didn't have to special order and wait for a computer. Had they spent the cash and had inventory at their stores, I'm almost sure they would have made a much bigger impact.

There is one thing Apple has that few other consumer level companies give, and that is service. Apple Numbers has glitches? Call Apple or hit a Genius bar, and it doesn't matter if it is the hardware, the app, or the OS, they will at least try to fix it. They may not be perfect, but this is better for the nontechnical home user than the usual "call the hardware/OS/app/software guy, don't bother us" that is common in the PC world. This is also the same reason why IBM, Oracle, Cisco and Sun rake in the big cash. For production, people don't want to try to figure where in their stack the issue is, they want it fixed ASAP regardless if it is an app, RDBMS, OS, or hardware problem.

Had Gateway offered this service where people could come in with their machine, and someone would be able to at least point them in a direction, be it a broken app, software, Windows, or the GW hardware, I am almost certain the stores would still be turning a positive ROI. Of course, this would mean tacking on a price difference to afford this, but perhaps Gateway might have been better off as positioning as a higher end computer place with personal service, similar to Alienware or IBM/Lenovo.

My question is, what can Microsoft do with their stores to make them worth the investment? Some ideas occur to me, but they are not really consumer level. One of them is partnering with HP or another PC vendor, and having preconfigured, turnkey appliances ready to go out the door. SMB needs to go with Exchange? Hit the MS store, buy a rack frame, DC, Exchange edge server for outgoing/incoming mail, Exchange edge server for OWA/POP/IMAP, and two servers for the central hub mailbox storage. Another business needs a large document repository? Sell a preconfigured, ready to go tower with SharePoint installed, and some consultant service time to get it up and integrated.

Consumer level, it is a lot harder. Perhaps preconfigured/preinstalled PCs that have more than just the basic bloatware. For example, laptops that ship with Enterprise or Ultimate Windows 7 editions, Office Professional, a no nonsense corporate edition antivirus utility. Another example would be a PC in a Media Center/HTPC case that is configured with the latest CableCARD stuff, large capacity, low-noise drives and mountings. Finally, another example would be a Windows Home Server box from HP that someone can buy off the shelf and start using as backups. In all the above examples, the key to customer sat would be having some form of support, either by phone or in person.

Re:That's the market.

[Anonymous Coward]

Money balanced by free time means that you have the facsimile plus time to live the real thing.

Re:That's the market.

[oogoliegoogolie]

One major determinant of job satisfaction is the reason why you work where you do, and if that reflects why people use each company's respective products, it'll go something like this:

People who work at an Apple Store work there because they want to .
People who will work at the MS Store will work there because they have to .

Re:That's the market.

[Anonymous Coward]

You also have to consider the future of the company - has Apple shot its load...

what...the...fuck?

Re:That's the market.

[Hognoxious]

What if you want to meet chicks - particularly straight and relatively presentable ones?

Re:That's the market.

[Hognoxious]

In capitalism there is no devil

Yes there totally is, he's in the details.

Re:That's the market.

[Antique Geekmeister]

I will make that conclusion. The Apple sales people I've seen were low key, helped their customers find solutions, and actually listened to their customer's needs to get them the right product, and pushed for quality of components. The PC sales staff I've encountered were frequently in over their heads with the blizzard of subtly incompatible or irrelevant components, far too many versions of PC's with very confusing and all slightly different specifications, and were pushing MS Office and Vista like their jobs depended on it (which they did), even as I struggled to avoid Vista.

This was last weekend, and six months ago, at the local larger computer sales stores. Having to try to sell Vista has been deadly for PC sales people and their ethics.

Re:That's the market.

[plover]

What exactly do they have to showcase that isn't at the big box stores?

Geniuses. The complaining that goes on with PCs is that they have problems. Apples have problems too, but they have nice, friendly geniuses at every store. You don't whine about an Apple problem that lasts for six months, you bring it to the store and the genius fixes it for you right there, in the store. Microsoft needs to get support people in the field to do the same thing.

I don't know if it'll help, or if it's too little too late. People have 15 years of (mostly true) perceptions of PC's being "buggy". But the promise of quick fixes is going to keep a lot of customers happy, and that might be enough to get them to buy Windows 7, or Office 2007, or whatever they're pitching next.

Re:That's the market.

[plover]

One other thing that Microsoft doesn't have that Apple does: cultists. Microsoft has never come close to building the same level of insane fervor in its customers (just its CEOs.) Perhaps by luring the Apple Store's top performers away, they're hoping to dress themselves up with happy people with happy infectious attitudes. Or maybe they're just hoping to water down the Apple pool.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see if this plays out as the next iteration of "Embrace and extend." (I'm not going to even suggest that "and extinguish" makes sense in this context.)

Re:That's the market.

[Firethorn]

Hmm... $16 converting CAD to USD. What I'd really need to do is check the cost of living.

I tend to get pissed when people constantly pick on Walmart. Perhaps sad to say, but Walmart is often a better deal for an entry level worker than the small businesses often touted by others - in my area such smaller businesses often pay less and frequently don't offer health insurance.

Same deal with fast food industries vs a lot of office jobs like filing clerk. The fast food job actually pays more.

Still to me this indicates that skilled managers are at a premium, so we're seeing something of a wage war. A smart employee who wants to stay with Apple might go to the company go 'Microsoft's giving me this tempting offer...' and get a raise to stay there.

It's why my ideas for improving real income center around two things - increasing productivity and increasing competition for workers. If companies are having a hard time hiring people, but the people are worth it, they'll offer higher wages to attract them.

Re:That's the market.

[Mongoose Disciple]

An interesting thing is, Apple pays really well for retail

Really? I have a few friends who work at the local Apple store, and they'd said the exact opposite -- that, barring being selected for "Genius" training, they could make more money working almost anywhere else in the same mall. They work for less money because they love all things Apple.

Re:That's the market.

[saider]

The genius bar is a joke. My wife spent an hour an a half waiting for a "genius" to do a 5 minute phone swap (LCD had cracked). They kept saying that it would take time to diagnose the problem and that they had to take care of the people in front of her.

It is a broken screen - there is nothing to diagnose. It only took 5 minutes of work to swap it out. They need to be smart enough to recognize the people who have a quick fix versus the lady who will spend an hour trying to get her desktop configured just so.

As she said,

"I'm not getting a Mac laptop if I have to make an appointment to some pretentious technician for the simplest of problems".

Re:That's the market.

[jcr]

Microsoft is trying its best to recruit the top salesfolk

If that's the case, then hiring people away from Apple retail is barking up the wrong tree. Apple doesn't try to hire the best sales people, it tries to hire the best customer service people.

A top-flight salesman can sell you something he knows is crap. That's what MS needs.

-jcr

Re:That's the market.

[Mongoose Disciple]

What if you want to meet chicks - particularly straight and relatively presentable ones?

Probably (if we're staying within the realm of retail) you should work at one of the many clothing stores at the mall that cater to young women, or something like a Sephora store.

Granted, those women will probably assume you're gay until you start hitting on them, but you're going to see a lot of straight and relatively presentable women come through your doors.

Re:That's the market.

[ElSupreme]

Yeah like the time I went into the Apple store to buy a $80 power cord. Because the piece of shit cord about the size of a headphone cord broke. I didn't have time to fix the cord, or order one online because I was going on a trip early the next morning. I got blown off by 3 individual people, before tracking down a manager, by walking into the back (ok so I took a step in and looked around), before I could get raped up the as purchasing it. All the other people cared about were selling iPhones, and PowerBooks. And my girlfriend (the Apple owener) was so put off by the expierence she is buying a PC next. The cost, and maintenance cost of her Apple is also a significant factor. But I can buy some standard AC adapter and plug in my PC.

I hate blanket statements like apple staff are helpful MSFT ones CAN"T BE. They don't push for quality, you cant charge 2k+ for a slow C2D, you have to sell the faster ones. AAPL is all about Form OVER Function.

And don't get me started about pushing Vista. Apple people are way more fanatical about Snow Leapord or Domestic House Cat, or what ever feline OS is coming out next. Vista IS NOT BAD (after SP1, and it was more annoying, extreemly annoying, before SP1 than outright bad) IF you have the hardware. XP is OLD, it is time to move on. And this forced upgrading argument is lost when you are comparing to AAPL.

Now I am not saying all AAPL store emploies are bad. But you can't say they are all good. And how is MSFT poaching the 'good' ones going to all of the sudden make them bad?

I have used AAPL, MSFT, and Linux boxes. They all have their niceities. But if you are half-way savy they all do the same stuff. Except games.

Re:That's the market.

[Anonymous Coward]

And just because your problem is simple to fix means you get to skip ahead of someone who was there before you?

You're the pretentious one.

Re:That's the market.

[ElSupreme]

Oh and the Zune is a much better MEDIA PLAYER, than the iPod. Sound is better, bundled headphones are not CRAPTASTISTIC, and the controls are better (no you can't tell me that wheel is something special, it is a up/down arrow combo). I personally HATE iTunes (and well the Zune software isn't that much better) and I don't buy music online (paying for a lossy encoding of a song, fuck that). Granted all the Zune does is play media, no externall HDD WTF!

And no the iTouch, and iPhone are not media players. They are internet tablets, and phones.

Re:That's the market.

[mcgrew]

In capitalism there is no devil

I see you've never had to work for a living.

Re:That's the market.

[saider]

Doing a swap out is not "genius" territory. We should not have to wait in the same line as someone with real software issues. Forcing everyone into the same funnel is the problem.

To use a simple analogy, they need an "express line" where simple retail (not technical) problems can be addressed.

Re:That's the market.

[macaddict]

Ooooh, well aren't we just the special little snowflakes.

They kept saying that it would take time to diagnose the problem and that they had to take care of the people in front of her.

OMG, they made you wait in line behind people who were there first. How dare they. HOW DARE THEY!! And I suppose you get to cut in line at the grocery store, too, when you have 25 items and the people in front of you have full carts? And how dare that shoe salesman continue helping the family of four who were there first, when you only need one pair! That pretentious prick!

Fucking hell, you and the wife are like the poster children for Generation Narcissist.

They need to be smart enough to recognize the people who have a quick fix versus the lady who will spend an hour trying to get her desktop configured just so.

So they have to waste resources triaging everyone who comes in, and the poor schmucks with more complicated problems keep getting shoved to the back of the line. Oh, well that will just solve everything, won't it? Or -- and I know this is crazy talk -- maybe they could implement some sort of system where you can call ahead and arrange a specific time that they will set aside to devote to your problem, so you can arrive at the appointed time and get the problem taken care of quickly.

"I'm not getting a Mac laptop if I have to make an appointment to some pretentious technician for the simplest of problems".

And, here's a free clue for you: you make an appointment so you don't have to wait in line! Dun dun Duuuuuuuuuhhhhh!!

I made an appointment to get my desktop looked at. And right at the appointed time, a tech called me over to work on the problem. Wow, what a concept! Maybe doctors and dentists and auto mechanics should look into using this "appointment" thingie.

Re:That's the market.

[saider]

Some other fact also need to be shared...

1) We had an appointment time.
2) We missed the appointment time by 4 minutes (due to a traffic accident that we were stuck in), but we still arrived within our allotted 10 minute window.
3) What we needed done only took about 6 minutes to process.
4) We were put at the back of the standby queue and ended up waiting until closing time before they got around to handling the problem.

No matter how you look at this, Apple does not look good to me. First, they have "geniuses" bogged down in mundane activities. Second, they are unable to recognize that it might be better to process a quick turn item rather than make that customer sit around for a long time. Third, we had an appointment window that we met. At worst, they should have handled us at the front of the standby queue. Ideally, they should have handled us next. This is simply good customer service.

If I were in line and someone with an appointment before mine was taken first I would not have a problem with that, even though they missed their appointment time. I have had that happen many times at other places. I figure that karma should work in your favor every now and again.

They lost my wife as a computer customer, which is part of the idea of iPods and iPhones - to convert PeeCee users into Mac users. At least with the PeeCees, she can get things resolved at a variety of places. Now she feels that any trouble she gets into is going to result in her dealing with long lines and "pretentious" technicians, even for the most mundane of tasks.

Re:That's the market.

[Gilmoure]

My fax machine is broken.

Re:That's the market.

[godefroi]

Um,

I don't know about you, but working for a company with that much cash laying around can't be ALL bad. If Microsoft is determined to do retail right (and I honestly have no idea if they're in it for the long haul...), they'll spend whatever money it takes to get it done.

See Xbox for a prior example of something Microsoft "couldn't possibly do as well as the other guys" that turned out to be lucrative for the employees involved. They've got the cash, so if you can get in on that gravy train, I say, more power to you.

Re:That's the market.

[godefroi]

If you say that money can't buy happiness, I say you're shopping at the wrong store.

You've been hanging out at Apple stores again! Haven't you!

Re:That's the market.

[nomadic]

Geniuses. The complaining that goes on with PCs is that they have problems. Apples have problems too, but they have nice, friendly geniuses at every store. You don't whine about an Apple problem that lasts for six months, you bring it to the store and the genius fixes it for you right there, in the store. Microsoft needs to get support people in the field to do the same thing.

You would think a real genius would have figured out something better to do than work retail...

Re:That's the market.

[godefroi]

I concluded no such thing, and merely made the observation that if someone is already happy with his job, it's frequently a smarter choice to stick with the current deal.

I guess it depends, then, on whether your job is "Retail Sales" or "Apple Fanatic". If the former, then do it for Microsoft for more money than you were before. If it's the latter, then definitely stick to the Apple store.

I'm sure there's plenty of both sorts in any retail outlet.

Re:That's the market.

[Danimoth]

I'm an ex Apple retail employee. If there is one thing I can say about my coworkers, itâ(TM)s that they fucking loved that company. About half of the people I worked with were part time employees with full time jobs doing photo and A/V work, usually for their own smallish firm. Why did they work at Apple? The discounts. Sure the store didn't pay the best (~$12/hour starting) but when you can get that $6000 mac pro / 30" screen combo for half off it starts to look very attractive for 20 hours a week. Apple loved it; they got some very knowledgeable employees to move their merch. Also, Apple treated us pretty damn well. As a whole, retail sucks. At least where I was, the managers were flexible and understanding. There were plenty of product giveaways to employees (in the 6 months I was there I got a free Shuffle when it had just come out as well as a free OS upgrade. I also picked up a week old mac book pro for ~50% off) I'm not too sure what MS is offering, but a lot of the people who were at the Apple Store weren't there for just the paycheck.

Re:That's the market.

[Tablizer]

I know MS isn't particularly liked around these parts, but how exactly do you conclude that these people will be less happy at MS than at Apple?

1. PRIDE
   

Re:That's the market.

[Tablizer]

But Apple retail is probably the best balance between selling interesting stuff and meeting real women. Clothing may get you more tail, but most men don't give a fleep about clothing.

Re:That's the market.

[realisticradical]

My wife spent an hour an a half waiting for a "genius" to do a 5 minute phone swap (LCD had cracked).

Ok, that's a long wait. The first time I read that I saw "half an hour". I've almost never seen lines that long and don't they let you make an appointment and at least go shopping elswhere if the lines are that long? How about this, I'll tell my genius bar story, I think it's basically the same story only I look at it the other way.

I bought a new MacBook online. When it arrived it didn't work, wouldn't even turn on. I called Apple's tech support and they had me bring it to the nearest Apple store, also they made an appointment for me. I went to the apple store, waited a few minutes for my 'Genius' who took one look at it and told me he had to swap out the RAM, which he did. Then I took my now working computer home.

Would I rather that my computer had worked in the first place? Yes. Have I spent hours on the phone with tech support from every other imaginable company where they did absolutely nothing to help without first having me do things like "unplug it and plug it back in"? Yes.

Y'know what, I have another story. A coworker of mine bought a laptop from Sony. When it showed up it the camera didn't work. Not the most important part in the world but it's nice to have your new thousand-dollar toy work out of the box. So she called Sony. I have no idea how long this took. In the end their solution was for her to ship the computer back to them so they could fix it. Remember how I live near an apple store? I also work near a SonyStyle store. Instead of doing the fix there, or replacing the computer as I suspect Apple would have done, they had her wait several weeks for the item she had just purchased. Could she have pushed them to replace the computer at their store? Probably, but it wasn't their first response.

What I'm not trying to say is that Apple is perfect, but they have a better commitment to helping solve customer problems then lots of other companies I've dealt with.

"I'm not getting a Mac laptop if I have to make an appointment to some pretentious technician for the simplest of problems".

I'm not sure what you expect to buy with such better support then. I'd rather wait 30 minutes to see a pretentious tech who can fix my problem than an hour for a phone support tech who spends three hours trying instruction manual fixes and can't.

Re:That's the market.

[saider]

See the response above. We had an appointment, arrived within our time slot and got sent to the back of the bus because we were a few minutes late (due to a traffic accident). We we not asking to be put in front of people who had waited longer. But as people keep coming in for their later appointment, nothing was done to try and fit us in for a trivial procedure that should not require a "genius" to process.

Re:That's the market.

[shutdown -p now]

Hmm... $16 converting CAD to USD. What I'd really need to do is check the cost of living.

If you're comparing to U.S., it's gonna be higher in BC compared to most U.S. states because of the taxes. Also, real estate prices here are downright insane, which probably also plays a part.

Re:That's the market.

[jfbilodeau]

In capitalism there is no devil

Yes there totally is, he's in the details.

Or in this case, the retail.

Re:That's the market.

[Grishnakh]

This is retail we are talking about. Sales people tend to be extremely flexible as to the product they try to sell. Its not like they actually have to use the products they sell.

Um, to sell technical products, don't you actually have to be knowledgeable about them? That's kinda hard to do if you never use them because you hate them.

I'm really quite curious how this is going to pan out for MS. I know I couldn't work at an Apple store, because as a Linux user, I wouldn't be very helpful if anyone had a question beyond the basics (I couldn't work at an MS store for the same reason). I'm not sure why MS thinks poaching people who don't use and probably don't much like MS products is going to work well.

Re:That's the market.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to give my own personal take on this: I bought a Macbook the first day the aluminum ones were offered last year. I got it home, and it was dead -- bad RAM. Since it was fairly late, I made an appointment to the Genius Bar for tomorrow, and they did a complete exchange, of course offering to replace the RAM if I had anything on the machine I desired to keep. It took around 12 minutes to complete the service call.

I have had to deal with other PC vendors for hardware issues as an individual, and it is nowhere near as easy. One example was a DOA hard disk (the heads were clicking which means it had no ability to calibrate to any tracks) , after calling the rep, I end up running through a script, spent 10 minutes saying "no, I'm sorry I can't do this diagnostic test in Windows, the hard disk is DEAD" to repeated questions, and then finally end up getting a new HDD shipped... and depending on company, they might send it next day, or I might get stuck waiting a couple days.

Businesses have it a bit easier, but having the service level for a tech to come out in 4 hours is fairly costly. This is why, for my own individual use, I'll probably build my own boxes, but for anything that approaches business production use, a company that does complete PCs and can guarantee a high level of service by sending someone out same day, is what I recommend on consulting gigs.

So, for an individual, Apple's service is very good. It is far better than the competition, but of course part of the reason Apple offers this is that they don't make bargain basement PCs. Of course, an individual can purchase business level machines for the better tier of service from most PC companies, but the machines will be notably more expensive.

Re:That's the market.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to work at the MS Store. In the Apple Store you sell just Apple things. The MS Store will sell 3rd party things too (not alts to MS things, but still 3rd party things).

Re:That's the market.

[plover]

A top-flight salesman can sell you something he knows is crap. That's what MS needs.

Nope, that's exactly what they don't need, and they know it. Microsoft's not completely hurting for sales. Their bread and butter comes from bundles and bundles of bundles, and corporations that need 100,000 desktops with Office 2007.

But they're losing everywhere else, because of the common (and not entirely untrue) perception that Microsoft = "virusy crashing computer".

They know they need to get customer service out in front of people, and make them accessible to ordinary folk. They've seen it work for Apple, and they want it too. It won't hurt that the stores will feature big screen TVs with kids lined up to blast things on the XBoxes. It will also give them an outlet to sell their peripheral hardware (which is actually not as mediocre as most of the crap out there*) and possibly a place to stock the complete line of Microsoft Press titles.

The big question is if they can do it well enough to beat Apple. Can they keep the line sizes manageable? Are they going to de-worm the machines right there on the countertop while you wait, which is good customer service? Or are they going to be a collection site who will send back the "repaired" PCs a week from Tuesday, which would be bad customer service.

They know they need these stores to freakin' *sparkle* with efficiency. The perception amongst the general public is that Apple stores do that today (even though the genius bars are sometimes lacking in actual geniuses.) The perception at Microsoft is that Apple store managers know how to do that. What they really should do is lure away the guy that designed the Apple store interiors and the guy who created the Apple store experience.

* Zune excluded.

Re:That's the market.

[shirotakaaki]

Something you brought up made me think of one way this can be a success or failure for Microsoft.

There is one thing Apple has that few other consumer level companies give, and that is service. Apple Numbers has glitches? Call Apple or hit a Genius bar, and it doesn't matter if it is the hardware, the app, or the OS, they will at least try to fix it. They may not be perfect, but this is better for the nontechnical home user than the usual "call the hardware/OS/app/software guy, don't bother us" that is common in the PC world.

If Microsoft decides that if something is wrong with your computer and it was not caused by their own software tough shit then this will be a failure. It would be even worse if anything goes wrong with your hardware you are told to "contact the manufacturer".

Microsoft has always been able to deflect some of the blame for their bad consumer perception by blaming third parties. It will be interesting to see how they deal with this when confronted by Joe Public with his malware infested or faulty memory machine.

Re:That's the market.

[Anonymous Coward]

So I assue you payed in advance for the 10 minutes? No? Did you call them in time that you would ba a little late, but that the rest of the ten minutes would be enough for your problem, if they could wait for you? No to that too? Let me get this straight: you come late and expect them to wait for you in the hope that you will return within the reserved 10 minutes? While people stand in line asking themselves "Why the fuck are we standing in line when the genius is just standing there, fiddling his thumbs? Could it be that he is awaiting the arrival of his majesty saider?"

Re:That's the market.

[Tycho]

Ugh, I'm going to mention an old Sony Vaio Pentium D desktop that came from the factory with a dead Ethernet port, I owned. I called Sony's tech support number, convinced the operator I knew what I was doing and that the Ethernet port was dead, a tech came out a couple days later to my apartment, replaced the motherboard. Things were better, until a RAM slot became non-functional on its own, another call to Sony that went the same way, the tech replaced the motherboard again. I didn't try to turn on the computer after the second replacement motherboard, as one might think would make sense, so when I tried to turn on the computer with all the cables back in place I received a nasty surprise, the board would not even power up, much less POST. The third motherboard replacement went like the other two and the computer still works today, but I don't own the computer anymore.

While I am not certain this is the case, but I would blame Sony's refurbishment procedures for not scrapping boards that that been refurbished, sent out, but failed again and then sending the same board back out again after refurbishment and receiving the board back again as defective, and following this sequence repeatedly. For cripes sake, permanently label your boards with serial numbers (no label stickers) so that after receiving a motherboard from a customer that has been refurbished twice already, you can track that and either recycle the damn board or find a better company to test and repair your boards. Sending boards that have cycled through the refurbishment process, say six times, out to fix customers machines is bad. The seventh time will not be the charm and it hurts yout reputation. Not that Sony has much of a reputation to lose after their atrocious handling of the defective nVidia 8400M and 8600M laptop GPUs. Not acknowledging the problem and offering a warranty extension for over a year after nVidia admits a problem is poor form for Sony.

Re:That's the market.

[indiechild]

Thanks for that info, that's very interesting. I think I'd be seriously tempted to work at an Apple store for a while as well, just for the discounts.

Re:That's the market.

[plover]

I work in retail, you insensitive clod!

Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple store staff are the high priests of the Mac faithful. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of them take jobs with M$ just to secretly turn customers off to Windows.

Re:Brilliant

[palegray.net]

I hadn't considered that angle... while I'm sure Microsoft would cover this sort of scenario in their employment contracts, it would be rather funny to see someone "jump ship" to one of their stores but secretly remain on Apple's payroll. Oh, the fun that could be had...

Re:Brilliant

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a breach under most employment contracts I have ever seen including MS's. Whats more the story is mostly fud, the moving expenses etc are all standard industry practise and like it or not so is poaching staff from your competitors, They all do it including Apple and slashdots beloved google. not sure why this is listed as a story.

Re:Brilliant

[Belial6]

I think it is a story because we all see the Mac Store employees as being interchangeable with any other employee working in a mall. Thus, it seems that they are offering more money with no good reason.

Re:Brilliant

[dougisfunny]

Doesn't Microsoft already do that themselves?

Re:Brilliant

[thesandtiger]

Interchangeable? No, no, and again no! The Mac store people are absolutely not interchangeable with other mall people. Can a Mac store associate make me an Orange Julius? No. Can he or she pierce my ears? No. Can any of them even build a teddy-bear for me? No. Make me some corndogs? No. Sell me 20 different cases for my cell phone? No. Convince me that the boots I just tried on are kicky? Probably, but then again, they usually wear Chucks, so possibly not.

Hardly interchangeable.

Ethical Business Tactics

[DirtyCanuck]

Poach Justin Long, FTW.

Everybody has a price.

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[russlar]

Poach the other guy, it would be much more effective:
"I'm a PC, and this is what I can really do."

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, cause it's the milktoast hipster dofus that makes those commercials funny.

This is like buying Craig from South Park

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

My kingdom for a mod point...

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[Stormwatch]

Poach the other guy, it would be much more effective: "I'm a PC, and this is what I can really do."

It'd be a bit weird. See, the "PC guy", John Hodgman, has actually been a Mac user since 1984 - except for a brief period, which he summarized as:

My PC experience was relatively benign. I had two machines over those two years, and both ended with the PC, despite all of my diligent maintenance, freaking out at the end, unusable, overwhelmed with spyware and bugs, slowly singing "bicycle built for two" and plotting my demise. [source]

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[Anonymous Coward]

It's milquetoast you insensitive clod.

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[initialE]

No, it's like buying Penn from Penn and Teller. He might not make you a good ad by himself, but at least he's not making a good ad for Apple.

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[cowscows]

Having listened to the audiobook version of Hodgman's books a couple times, whenever I read anything that he has written, I cannot help but hear him narrating it in my head. He certainly has created a unique persona for himself ( I mean this in a good way.)

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[mcgrew]

"Poaching", "human capital", and other such terms make me realise that "wage slave" is entirely accurate.

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[Gilmoure]

The beatings will continue until moral improves.

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you ma'am may I have another?

Re:Ethical Business Tactics

[Anonymous Coward]

Milquetoast. Really.

It's not the first time

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the first time

Gateway Stores

[binaryspiral]

I remember Gateway stores were poaching from local retailers like Circuit City... the grass died on both sides of that fence.

Re:Gateway Stores

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe, but this sort of thing once killed Borland as a company (Microsoft poaching Borland employees), so this has worked in the past for MS.

Re:Gateway Stores

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you're saying is, with any luck Microsoft and Apple will die out in a decade?

How appropriate. Captcha: henchman

Re:Gateway Stores

[socsoc]

I worked at a CompUSA with a Gateway store in the same block and a Good Guys across the parking lot and a Best Buy across the street... It was fun. Gateway were truly idiots and I liked how they thanked me for calling Gateway Country and then go on a sales pitch upon answering the phone each time I was trying to help a customer (maybe soon to be theirs if they told me the right prices and didn't act like fools, I wasn't commission and honestly wanted whatever suited the customer the best).

Re:Gateway Stores

[Anonymous Coward]

I wasn't aware that Borland had retail shops. I must've missed their kiosk next to Computerland.

Re:Gateway Stores

[chip_s_ahoy]

And so it will be so again. For this is the time FOR LINUX STORES TO RISE UP AND SMITE THEIR ENEMIES! Or whatever next step those Linux stores need to take. They already have enough underwear.

Re:Gateway Stores

[ClosedSource]

No, poaching Ashton-Tate (to get dBase) was the biggest factor in Borland's demise. Overestimating the power of C++ was another (i.e. delaying Windows versions of their products to write them in C++).

Re:Gateway Stores

[Sulphur]

Thats henchperson, you insensitive clod.

Somedays...

[His Shadow]

I wish anything Microsoft does would still surprise me...

Re:Somedays...

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I heard Ballmer once stopped to allow a flock of ducklings to cross the road. He "ooooh'd" and "awwwww'd" as their downy tail feathers waggled to-and-fro. Once they passed, he made his way to the nearest Co-Op for a vegan latte and compared electric cars with his eco-friendly comrades. Like Ebony and Ivory, Chocolate and Milk, so goes Ballmer and Pilates. After a rousing morning of stretching and contorting, with his chakras aligned once again, he proceeded into the office, where he grabbed a chair to throw at those fucking baby ducklings.

Nothing they do surprises me anymore.

Re:Somedays...

[quantaman]

I wish anything Microsoft does would still surprise me...

Yeah! How unethical of them to try to hire workers away with better pay!!

This isn't particularly newsworthy, I don't think it's unusual for retails stores moving into an area to go after the employees of their local competition. It makes sense for MS to go after employees experienced in the market they're entering, I'd expect they're looking for employees from any technology retailer, not just apple.

Heck, this is giant corporations competing to hire the little guy, this is the part of capitalism we're supposed to like!!

Re:Somedays...

[mgblst]

Did you hear they are bringing out a tablet. And the Zune phone is all but guaranteed, to go along with there new Zune MP3 player, which has a big screen that takes up the front of the player.

That is new right? Nobody else is doing anything like that.

Re:Somedays...

[indiechild]

I think people just find it amusing. You're not going to see Apple poaching Microsoft employees en masse, for example.

I don't think people are suggesting there's something wrong ethically with the situation. If MS can pay the employees better, that's great.

I can just picture the line of black-clad employees clapping and cheering and giving high-fives everytime a customer walks into an MS retail store...

Re:Somedays...

[quantaman]

I think people just find it amusing. You're not going to see Apple poaching Microsoft employees en masse, for example.

I don't think people are suggesting there's something wrong ethically with the situation. If MS can pay the employees better, that's great.

I can just picture the line of black-clad employees clapping and cheering and giving high-fives everytime a customer walks into an MS retail store...

Though it wasn't long ago that there were some stories here about google poaching a lot of MS developers.

The reason Apple isn't trying to poach MS people is that Apple is the established player, they have their own people.

I'll agree that most people found it amusing or uninteresting but I think the poster I replied to was certainly reacting with an anti-MS slant.

Re:Somedays...

[wizardforce]

It's one thing for companies in a fairly diverse competitive market to do this, it's quite another when a convicted monopolist does it.

Re:Somedays...

[quantaman]

It's one thing for companies in a fairly diverse competitive market to do this, it's quite another when a convicted monopolist does it.

That should definitely bite them in some areas but not here. They're not really leveraging their monopoly and among activities I'd like to restrict luring workers away with better offers isn't one of them.

Re:Somedays...

[Anonymous Coward]

Firstly this is hardly leveraging there monopoly, it is standard competitive behaviour that should be encouraged. Secondly they are not a "convicted" monopolist, they were not tried in a crimal court nor was it considered a criminal offense. They were "Declared" a monopoly and were hence found to be in breach of civil laws by a civil court.

Re:Somedays...

[BenevolentP]

The unethical part is that they want to add the arrogant, slow, chatty and (after purchase) unfriendly Apple store employees to their minions. Just my personal experience, may have been my bad luck.

Re:Somedays...

[Rakshasa Taisab]

Yeah, it's clearly out of season to go shooting Apple Retail Staff this time of year.

Re:Somedays...

[je ne sais quoi]

I'll agree that most people found it amusing or uninteresting but I think the poster I replied to was certainly reacting with an anti-MS slant.

No, it wasn't so much as anti-MS as bored with MS. Here's the essential point as I see it. Apple starts some stores, they're pretty successful, MS comes along, starts some stores and rather than try and innovate and develop their own new strategies for success, they're poaching Apple employees. It's just not innovative and there hasn't been a lot of innovative ideas at MS for some time.*

* Okay, I admit the ribbons are innovative, but considering that more than half the expert users of office hate them, I wouldn't call it successfull innovation.

Re:Somedays...

[russotto]

Yeah, it's clearly out of season to go shooting Apple Retail Staff this time of year.

Only the regular ones. Geniuses are unlimited season, no bag limit.

Re:Somedays...

[thethibs]

Not so new. Palm has been using that form factor for a long time.

Re:Somedays...

[shutdown -p now]

You're not going to see Apple poaching Microsoft employees en masse, for example.

But Google does.

(Well, it actually goes both ways, though you usually hear more about MS->Google moves).

Re:Somedays...

[beckett]

woosh

Re:Somedays...

[Anonymous Coward]

I happen to like every part of capitalism, but what you said is still true-- anyone should be thankful that an employer is offering them higher wages for their services.

Re:Somedays...

[Grishnakh]

Yeah! How unethical of them to try to hire workers away with better pay!!

No one said it's unethical, just that it's unimaginative, lazy, and maybe even outright dumb.

I think they'd do better trying to find people who are already MS fans to work there, instead of trying to poach Apple employees, who are usually serious Apple fans, and probably are not highly competent in MS products anyway.

Heck, MS should just advertise here on Slashdot. There's tons of MS fans and shills here.

Re:Somedays...

[quantaman]

Yeah! How unethical of them to try to hire workers away with better pay!!

No one said it's unethical, just that it's unimaginative, lazy, and maybe even outright dumb.

I think they'd do better trying to find people who are already MS fans to work there, instead of trying to poach Apple employees, who are usually serious Apple fans, and probably are not highly competent in MS products anyway.

That is an issue but not every Apple store employee is a fanboy, and the better ones are going to be able to translate the concepts and technologies between the different systems.

Besides, someone who is good at technology retail is probably more useful than someone who really loves the products.

Heck, MS should just advertise here on Slashdot. There's tons of MS fans and shills here.

I'm not sure but that sounds like you're talking about me.

Which would be odd.

Since I haven't even owned a computer with Windows installed for 5 years (although I have a couple vmware machines for work purposes). And I've run Linux as my primary operating system, at home and work, since 2002.

At my last company I held out for the better part of a year against my manager's attempts to switch me from Linux to Windows (I never did switch and ended up leaving for unrelated, but happy, reasons).

Don't assume that because someone defends one aspect of Microsoft's practices that they're an MS fan or shill. I despise MS and Windows for a number of very good and very valid reasons.

But this story is not one of them.

Re:Somedays...

[Grishnakh]

Heck, MS should just advertise here on Slashdot. There's tons of MS fans and shills here.

I'm not sure but that sounds like you're talking about me.

No, that remark wasn't about you at all, it's about Slashdot in general. Sorry if it sounded that way.

Re:Somedays...

[shirotakaaki]

They should hire away Geek Squad employees! They would be cheaper too!

Poaching

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, I am poaching eggs. I plan to take a small bite out of each one and leave them around randomly inside Microsoft stores.

And, cue commercial...

[greg_barton]

"I used to be an Apple genius, but I SWITCHED!"

Re:And, cue commercial...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I used to be an Apple genius, but I SWITCHED!"

"I am still an Apple "genius" because Microsoft offered me more money but I won't take it!!"

Re:And, cue commercial...

[mgblst]

Does it come with a free lobotomy, or do you have to smack your head into the wall 10 times?

Re:And, cue commercial...

[Starayo]

They should take the MS job, they'll have more money to spend on their beloved overpriced Apple products.

Re:And, cue commercial...

[onlyjoking]

No, but they teach you how to throw a chair.

Re:And, cue commercial...

[Gentlewhisper]

> They should take the MS job, they'll have more money to spend on their beloved overpriced Apple products.

But they will lose that staff benefit where they can buy Apple products for merely 1000% of its cost price instead of RRP!

Re:And, cue commercial...

[m.ducharme]

I think Penny Arcade got this one right.

A company paying higher wages?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shocking! A company that treats employees like they value them are getting experienced candidates from their rivals. My god what has capitalism come to!

Steve Ballmer has gone mad...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the Apple store employees... it's what they sell..

But why?

[grapeape]

First of all this is coming from a Mac user. In fact im typing this on my macbook now.

Evidently the Mac Stores outside my area are quite different than the ones here. Here they are rather pretentious sterile cubes with one or two employees willing to show you why you really need that $3000 loaded macbook pro rather than the $999 macbook so junior can do his homework faster. 3-4 other people standing around and one guy at the Mac Genius table arguing with a guy that dropped his Iphone in water and expects a free replacement anyway. I have yet to find any employees outside the genius bar that actually know anything beyond their scripted demo, and the guy at the bar is usually too busy explaining something mundane to be of much help if you do not have a scheduled appointment.

Have the "I'm A Mac" commercials permeated the consciousness of Microsoft to the point that they themselves feel that no one but nerds and suits use windows? What good is a mac entrenched hipster selling windows?

Re:But why?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a longtime Mac user and I say best of luck to those that jump for more money. Who can blame them? Times are tough and money is important for most people. Besides, there is a greater chance that those that are Apple loyalists who know the products well will stay. And it's not like there is a shortage of college kids for Apple to tap into to replenish the ranks. Maybe we'll even see better Apple stores with more direct competition from Microsoft. I don't see how either side loses.

Re:But why?

[mgblst]

Perhaps they are hoping these guys will help shape the setup for the stores. Basically, they steal the way Apple does things with there stores, rather than having to reinvent it all.

Re:But why?

[OverZealous.com]

Just to relate a slightly different experience:

When I was looking to switch from Windows to Macs nearly two years ago, I needed two computers: a workstation for me, and a laptop for my wife. The workstation was fairly easy (they only make one Mac Pro, and I am really happy with it).

However, when we were trying to decide which Mac laptop to get for my wife, the Apple store kid who was actually willing to talk to me was trying his hardest to get us into a normal MacBook. I wanted the MacBook Pro for various performance reasons (since I would be borrowing it and wanted to run graphics apps on it), and my wife disliked the fact that the plastic MB had really frickin' sharp edges.

Despite the fact that we wanted to blow something like 35% more money on the MBP, the Mac reps repeatedly tried to push us into the cheaper computer. (They also denied the sharp edges, which you can easily go online and find reports and photos of user's wrists having bruises and cuts. But that's probably the RDF working.)

But I totally agree that the sales people are annoyingly pretentious. (The good thing, if you are just browsing, is they rarely bother you.)

Anyway my point, if there is anything at all, is that at least one person had them trying sell a cheaper model. That appeared to be repeated throughout the store and with different products when I listened in on other sales pitches.

Re:But why?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm so sick of this shit. Times are the same as ever for everyone who still has a job.

Re:But why?

[jollyreaper]

Have the "I'm A Mac" commercials permeated the consciousness of Microsoft to the point that they themselves feel that no one but nerds and suits use windows? What good is a mac entrenched hipster selling windows?

He'll be doing it ironically.

Re:But why?

[fermion]

I don't think the Apple employees are anything special. Most I have worked are relatively unknowledgeable about the product, most seem to have been working for less than a year.

The thing about the Apple store, as with many successful higher end store, is the customer service. Not the fact service at some restaurants, where they greet you but immediately have to get rid of you, but sustained personal service. The guy who helped my pick a computer was a saint of customer service.

While hiring managers who have been already trained in this philosophy of helping the customer will jump start the MS stores, if they are not committed to the customer it will not matter. For instance, my experience in the Apple store with iPhone hacking is very low key. A sign on the counter, and an instance that the geniuses will not help. When I asked about running a single copy of aperture on tow machines, the Apple people did not recommend it, but said it might work if I wasn't going use the two machines at the same time. I say a customer come in irate because the computer he just bought would not have the updated iWork on it. The manager promised to give him a copy.

One wonder if the MS employees would be so helpful if one wanted to buy a single retail box of windows so you could, separately run a home and office computer, or would give the customer a new version of Office when the customer bought a previous version a couple days before the official free upgrade period.

Re:But why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have the "I'm A Mac" commercials permeated the consciousness of Microsoft to the point that they themselves feel that no one but nerds and suits use windows? What good is a mac entrenched hipster selling windows?

Correction: The nerds use OSX too. And Linux. Sometimes on the same box. That leaves only the suits and PC gamers with Windows.

Re:But why?

[kklein]

I avoid Apple stores like the fucking plague, and I'm typing this on a Mac Pro, with my work Air at my left, my iPhone at my right, my old MacBook on my wife's desk, a Mini on the TV, and iPods every goddamn where I look. I don't even know how this happened to me, to be honest.

But those stores are awful. A bunch of pretentious asswipes with spiky hair trying to sell me kit that I don't need or want for prices I could beat virtually anywhere else. The only reason to go to one is to see a product and feel it before buying it somewhere else.

These people seem to think they work for Apple. They don't. They're in retail. They might as well be selling shoes at Payless. It's the same job.

Sometimes I wonder if/when the hipster image Apple cultivates will bite them in the ass. No one I know who uses Macs is like those people in the stores. In fact, all of them are nerds who like having a UNIX terminal. And I just got sick of spending all my time configuring things, whether it be on Linux or Windows, and decided I'd rather pay someone else to do it so I could finally get some work done. It's been good.

Ugh, Apple stores. I just want to punch everyone there when I go.

Re:But why?

[Anonymous Coward]

with one or two employees willing to show you why you really need that $3000 loaded macbook pro rather than the $999 macbook so junior can do his homework faster

I work at an Apple store as a basic salesperson and I don't understand why this would happen. We don't work on commission and there's no reason to sell a more expensive computer than what the person needs. In fact, it's best to sell them the least expensive machine that meets their needs, because then they have the money for adding on the Applecare and the One-to-one.

I usually get at least one person a day who is convinced they need a particular laptop that is overkill for what they plan on using it for, and I try (and usually succeed) to convince them that they should get a cheaper one.

Overall, we're tracked more on satisfaction after the purchase than sales in dollars.

Re:But why?

[NiteShaed]

I'm so sick of this shit. Times are the same as ever for everyone who still has a job.

Unless you've had your hours cut back, or lost your bonuses, or had to skip a yearly raise, or had to take a pay-cut, or had to take an unpaid vacation (furlough), or had to work extra hours to make up for the three people who used to do the job you're doing by yourself now for the same money you always got, or saw your commissions drop by half, or had to pay more for your health benefits due to company cutbacks (effectively a pay-cut).........

There are plenty of ways that times are tougher for people now. For everyone? No, but for a pretty substantial number they are.

Re:But why?

[mcsqueak]

Evidently the Mac Stores outside my area are quite different than the ones here. Here they are rather pretentious sterile cubes with one or two employees willing to show you why you really need that $3000 loaded macbook pro rather than the $999 macbook so junior can do his homework faster.

That is interesting to hear. Here in my city, the local Apple store at the mall downtown is PACKED every time I go in, like there is some sort of amazing new release going on, even when there isn't. I went in last month to get a new case for my iPhone and I practically had to shove people out of the way in front of the case display wall so I could consider my choices. The employees don't have time to be pushy because there are just so many damn customers, or at least people just playing with crap that have no real intent of purchasing anything.

I also visited the Apple store in the Ginza district of Tokyo earlier this month, which was laid out the same way as my local store and was just as packed.

So let me get this straight

[SuperKendall]

I go into a Microsoft store, and what I can expect is... a store of people vastly familiar with the Mac but with little Windows experience.

Genius.

Re:So let me get this straight

[plazman30]

It's all part of Apple's master plan!

They're letting these people get hired away. Makes Apple's tech support easier when someone can walk into a Microsoft store have someone get their iPod working with Windows 7.

Re:So let me get this straight

[wickerprints]

While this is mostly true, it's also beside the point. Microsoft doesn't care about whether their hired retail staff will know anything about Windows. They already have huge market share. People buy Windows because they are either (1) too ignorant and scared to use anything else (be it Mac or Linux), or (2) they are gamers and have no need for people to sell them a Windows box, they'd buy it anyway. The entire point of these MS stores is to say F**K YOU APPLE. It is ALL about leveraging Microsoft's vast financial resources to hurt Apple as much as possible. They don't care if they lose huge amounts of money doing it. That is why Zune exists, why their advertising is all about underpricing Macs, why they propose opening stores right next to Apple Retail Stores, and now why they are actively trying to poach Apple Retail Store management. It is warfare, pure and simple, because Microsoft senior management knows they have lost the innovation battle. They've lost it for the better part of this past decade.

Many companies--not just Microsoft--don't simply use their wealth to generate more wealth. They also use it to actively deny their competition from succeeding. Profit is not the only motive in a free market. Sometimes--perhaps quite often--success is measured in terms of how completely and efficiently you are able to punish others for even daring to go up against you. You don't have to win outright, just make your enemies suffer more than you. And that kind of attitude is perfectly exemplified by what we already know about Ballmer's chair-throwing, monkey dancing personality.

Re:So let me get this straight

[Anonymous Coward]

I go into a Microsoft store, and what I can expect is... a store of people vastly familiar with the Mac but with little Windows experience.

Genius.

No no, they're not geniuses anymore, they're metaminds!

Re:So let me get this straight

[roadkill-maker]

The entire point of these MS stores is to say F**K YOU APPLE. It is ALL about leveraging Microsoft's vast financial resources to hurt Apple as much as possible. They don't care if they lose huge amounts of money doing it. That is why Zune exists, why their advertising is all about underpricing Macs, why they propose opening stores right next to Apple Retail Stores, and now why they are actively trying to poach Apple Retail Store management.

I think its much simpler then. As you've stated, Microsoft still has a the majority of the OS market. While I'm sure they consider Apple a future threat, they really aren't big enough to be their main concern. Microsoft is probably more worried about falling behind in search engines then what will happen with Apple in the next 10 years.

This is most likely exactly what it looks like, Microsoft is trying to get experienced managers for their stores. Another commenter had it right, they are selling a lifestyle, similar to how Apple stores sell an image. The stores are similar in nature (I'm not saying they won't compete with each other) so hiring managers that ran Apple stores would be a good hire.

As a side note, I don't see whats wrong with what Microsoft is doing. They are offering managers more money for a very similar job. There are risks associated with making such a move, but I think that it's a win if the employees end up better off.

Re:So let me get this straight

[dingen]

Microsoft doesn't care about whether their hired retail staff will know anything about Windows.

They will care once their own retailers start suggesting Mac OS X to potential customers.

Re:So let me get this straight

[indiechild]

I'd definitely mod you up if I had points. This is classic Microsoft business strategy at work. They don't bother innovating to differentiate themselves, they just use pure muscle to try to smash their competition.

Re:So let me get this straight

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also what I was taught in business classes. I don't really see your point here.

Businesses aren't around to make their direct competitors feel cuddly and warm.

Re:So let me get this straight

[jim_v2000]

Ha ha ha....you actually think that Microsoft cares about innovation...that's cute.

Re:So let me get this straight

[BudAaron]

I usually avoid the Mac versus PC discussions with a passion. I'm a game player and a developer. I run a high resolution dual monitor system with a couple of terrabytes of disk, 8 GB of memory and an Intel Quad core processor. The whole shebang cost me less than a Mac. As an Empower ISV I get thousands of dollars worth of development tools for $ 395 a year. But according to every Apple afficianado a Mac is better than my system. So would someone please step up and tell me where I went wrong? I have Expression Studio and can run Adobe stuff if I want. Exactly what is it that makes a Mac better than my system running Windows 7 x64? You can email me at bud@dotnetchecks.com to let me know.

Re:So let me get this straight

[Pecisk]

This also is known as 'illegal abuse of monopoly state'. Just sayin.

Re:So let me get this straight

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Many companies--not just Microsoft--don't simply use their wealth to generate more wealth. They also use it to actively deny their competition from succeeding.

...

You don't have to win outright, just make your enemies suffer more than you.

I don't think this really explains it, it seems to be turning out to be worse than a Pyrrhic victory, not only do you put more resources into the project than the other guy, the other guy still wins and still made money on the venture while MS seems to be barely making money per unit in incremental terms, and never making their investment back.

It seems to me that Microsoft spends a lot of money just to spend it, for example, Zune has yet to hurt Apple in any meaningful way. ZuneHD might change that a bit, but then, it doesn't sound like they are necessarily trying that hard. Apple sells even more iPhones than they do iPod Touches, so Microsoft only ended up picking the smaller target. And frankly, I think they should have just made an XBox Portable with the Zune, they might actually make their money back and get a share of a market that still has growth potential.

I'm skeptical that a Microsoft retail store will make a dent in the Apple store. They seem to be out for some measure of pride, but I don't think they are even getting that back out of these efforts.

Re:So let me get this straight

[TRRosen]

Funny as a mac user I get thousands of dollars worth of development software for free.

by the way.... three monitor , 10Gb ram 4Tb storage and TWO quad core processors an worth every penny.

Re:So let me get this straight

[BOFHelsinki]

Businesses aren't around to make their direct competitors feel cuddly and warm.

But they aren't around to destroy each other either. (Observing how many of them still tend to make a product or provide a service. You know, something of their own. Patent trolls aside perhaps.)

Re:So let me get this straight

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe you're an astroturfer. A gamer would automatically mention his video card before disk space or CPU. ;)

Re:So let me get this straight

[gtall]

I agree with most of what you wrote, except I don't find Windows users ignorant or scared. They seem to come in two main groups. Group one generally have another goal in life than to become one with their computer. The computer is simply a tool to get something done. If it does the job for them, they have no reason to switch. Telling them they will have a better user experience won't matter because they don't consider the user experience to be such a big thing. Group two have specific software that only runs on Windows or have used it for a long time and are comfortable with it. Both groups have been snake bitten by MS Malware enough to not want to pfutz with the system very much lest they land in limbo from which there is no escape, even a new machine would still be a royal pain in the tuckus.

A third group of Windows enthusiasts really, really like Windows, why is a mystery to me but I imagine it is similar to the way I feel about my Mac. A fourth group are psychos. They generally think of Apple or Linux as a threat, would gladly go Bowling with Ballmer, and think of Gates as some sort of genius.

Re:So let me get this straight

[wickerprints]

This is sort of correct. Microsoft is certainly worried about online presence but it is much in the way that a hypochondriac might be worried about the threat of a specific disease. MS management is paranoid that every external innovation related to computing technology in some way is a potential threat or a missed opportunity. They don't focus on one area (e.g. search) at the expense of another, which explains why they continue to insist on developing Zune in the face of the iPod's success, Windows Mobile in the face of the iPhone, and Bing in the face of Google. And they are willing to eat losses--embrace them even--if they believe that doing so permits them to bring attention to their own offerings in some way, even if it is ridiculed (remember the shit brown Zune?). Another great example of this is Bing cashback, where MS actually pays consumers (albeit indirectly) a variable percentage as a reward for making purchases through Bing. That is how much they believe that everyone is out to get them, that they must have a hand in every computing niche.

Microsoft is compelled to do something just because someone else is doing it. If they can't buy it, they try to copy it. If they can't copy it, they try to discredit it. And this compulsion is, I believe, driven by fear--fear that if they don't stay on top of everything and everyone, that minor papercut could harbor a flesh-eating bacterium. Hypochondria. They talk tough and have lots of money to back their actions, but behind the scenes they're worried about everything. It's like the Howard Hughes of computer technology.

It's not about "right" or "wrong." What I describe is merely my model, a conceptual framework for understanding the motives of this one company. Apple's model is different, almost the polar opposite--they are not about needing to be everywhere and for everyone. Rather, their model is rather egocentric in that the product is designed according to internal beliefs about what it should be, essentially dictating to the consumer what they ought to want. The product drives the demand, rather than the other way around. This approach is often miscast as saying Apple consumers care about style over substance. The truth is, Apple products are successful only to the extent that there are people for whom it is successful. They've made some bombs, even fairly recently (iPod HiFi, anyone? G4 Cube? Hockey puck mouse? Need I go on?) If it truly sucks, people won't hesitate to ditch it, even when made by the almighty Apple.

Of course, these are not absolute models of corporate philosophy that apply universally.

Whereas MS acts out of insecurity, Apple acts out of arrogance. Asking which approach is "correct" is sort of like asking whether a watermelon is green or red, when all I really care about is if it's tasty....

Re:So let me get this straight

[Anonymous Coward]

Begging the question, learn it

Re:So let me get this straight

[dissy]

Businesses aren't around to make their direct competitors feel cuddly and warm.

Unless the business is a laundromat, and they commonly put their competitors in the dryer with a fabric sheet or two. You should try it, it's loads of fun.

Re:So let me get this straight

[jcr]

So would someone please step up and tell me where I went wrong?

If you're happy with it, why should anyone try to talk you out of it?

Macs aren't for everybody.

-jcr

Re:So let me get this straight

[jcr]

It would be rather amusing if customers walking into a Microsoft store were told "Windows seven is cheaper, and it's almost as good as a Mac!"

-jcr

Re:So let me get this straight

[Anonymous Coward]

Non-Compete agreements may work at the corporate executive level or at the engineering level, but there is no way in HELL they will fly at the retail or retail management level. Most of these people have few skills that they would be able to translate to jobs outside the retail field. Even if Apple does force its retail employees to sign NCAs, they will most likely be thrown out by a judge when challenged, especially when it comes to sales positions.

Re:So let me get this straight

[radish]

People buy Windows because they are either (1) too ignorant and scared to use anything else (be it Mac or Linux), or (2) they are gamers and have no need for people to sell them a Windows box, they'd buy it anyway.

Oh please, give the pretention a rest. Some people use Windows because they prefer it and it works better for them. I'm not ignorant or scared, I just want to use software which doesn't exist on Linux and happen to dislike the OSX desktop. At home I have machines running XP, OSX, Win 7 and Ubuntu - but my primary machines (desktop & netbook) are both Win 7. Personal preference, doesn't make me stupid.

Re:So let me get this straight

[Just Some Guy]

Some people use Windows because they prefer it and it works better for them.

Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence.

Re:So let me get this straight

[KraftDinner]

I can't buy a PC for the sake of liking it more so than Linux or Mac? Btw, I'm not exactly a dumb user either. I've programmed quite a few years in Linux and used to use it for personal things as well. I've used Macs before and I simply like Windows OS better.

Re:So let me get this straight

[oogoliegoogolie]

Some people use Windows because they prefer it and it works better for them
That's crazy talk!

Re:So let me get this straight

[indiechild]

Agreed. Some people just can't work efficiently in OS X, and in the end it basically comes down to personal preferences.

That cuts both ways too. For some people like me, the only operating system that allows me to work effectively with a minimum of stress is OS X.

Re:So let me get this straight

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all part of Apple's master plan!

"You can't get the transfer movies from your video camera to your computer? Well, let's see... if you were using a Mac, you could..."

Poaching to where?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft has retail stores? It was news to me that they were planning to try that, and I don't quite understand the approach. What systems are they going to sell? Or will it be all peripherals, software, games, and such?

Wouldn't antitrust issues prevent them from selling complete systems?

I don't understand their angle.

Good idea

[royallthefourth]

I'd love for another company to see my work and offer me better compensation at a new job

Perhaps this is the only way I wish my life was a little more like Dilbert

wrong approach...

[bedheading]

Why this will fail: Apple's staff are only able to do their jobs (selling Macs, increasing brand loyalty) due to the tools they have- the product. If Macs and the software that runs them weren't so fundamentally appealing to consumers it wouldn't matter who was walking the floor- nothing would sell. Apple's sales approach is distinctly hands-off anyway. If this is how Microsoft hopes to copy Apple's success, they are approaching it completely backwards. Besides, Apple's managerial staff typically comes straight from places like the GAP, Target, and other large corporate retailers. Microsoft would have better luck looking at similar places.

Re:wrong approach...

[Barny]

Why? When they can happily poach what apple have already filtered out?

Maybe they just weighed up the cost in their HR departments time vs the extra wages multiplied by the average time these new managers are likely to hang around for.

As for selling, well selling is selling, with a little background info and a few "hip" facts you can sell damn near anything, your customers just need to want to buy and you will sell, and who the fuck would be caught dead in a microsoft store unless they were really fucking desperate for MS products?

Re:wrong approach...

[bedheading]

When it comes to the management staff, Apple typically hires people who are not technically savvy. They may have computer skills, but those skills are incidental when compared to people/retail skills.

People who are not technically savvy are the prime target for Apple's marketing- so bringing these computer novices into the company and educating them on how everything Mac (hardware, software, iPods, etc) works so smoothly together engenders a sense of loyalty about the brand and the product. Even with a pay raise, working for Microsoft is not very appealing to these folks. There are always exceptions, but my point is that Microsoft would do better to pick from the enormous pool of retail management that has not yet been indoctrinated.

Re:wrong approach...

[Barny]

Retail managers don't need to know jack about what their staff are selling, primarily because the staff do the selling, the manager keeps the staff doing their thing, the store stocked, the power on, etc.

I work retail/service btw. My manager does happen to know a bit about computers, he can replace PSUs and dust out a PC, fit a new part but thats about it, it isn't his job to know or do even that.

Is there an echo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there an echo?

oh..

[nixish]

and i expected much more from you, M$

Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[BoRegardless]

Lets see, Apple has top to bottom control, OS, Developer Tools, Software, multiple lines of hardware, services.

Microsoft has OS, Dev Tools, Software and ...........no iPod, iPhone, Accessories, Laptop or Desktop hardware worth speaking of at the moment.

Now just what is Microsoft going to be selling? $300 boxes of Win7 while Amazon sells for less?

Once the experiment is over where do the "Genius'" work?

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[plazman30]

If the laptop hunter ads are any indication, the stores will be full of HP Products.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lying to customers with a straight face is a pretty standard Retail Skill. Being able to resist the urge to slap the annoying folks who come in are another.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, they might be able to give impartial advice on lots of things that Apple employees can't since MS don't compete.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[gad_zuki!]

>Microsoft has OS, Dev Tools, Software and ...........no iPod, iPhone, Accessories, Laptop or Desktop hardware worth speaking of at the moment.

Zune HD, HP laptops, Thinkpads, Office, Windows upgrades, HTC WinMo phones, Xbox 360, etc. The same way I can get third-party software and hardware at the Apple store.

They of course wont be selling any of these. Like Apple these consumer goods are props. They will be selling you a lifestyle. I expect MS to heavily promote the "home digital hub" solution theyve been talking about for the past 3 or 4 years. A Windows home server + Xbox plugged into the tv, Exchange at work, WinMo in your pocket, Zune in your ear, Win7 on your laptop, 25gigs of free skydrive space, etc.

I also expect classes on MovieMaker, Outlook, WinMo, Win7, Bing, etc to be big.

Essentially, its retail as advertising. As capitalism ages everything essentially becomes the fashion industry. All style, perhaps a chance of substance.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[mgblst]

Well, they have an ipod, the zune. They also have the xbox, lots of hardware. They are bringing out a phone and maybe even a tablet.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully, they only poach the good looking Apple retail employees, if it's to be a fashion play.

Maybe they could go "Abercrombie" and have a half naked male model "greeter", to draw the gay guys (oh, and the 3 chix who give a rat's ass about the details of a digital lifestyle).

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[dingen]

According to Microsoft, selling stuff is not the main focus of the Microsoft stores. They just want to be out there or something.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[initialE]

Riiight.. Because they can afford to piss off Dell, Asus, Acer and every other manufacturer out there.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[abigsmurf]

MS Keyboards, MS mice, other MS computer accessories, Zune, xbox360, games...

If anything, MS have more products to fill out a store than Apple do.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[cronco]

Shouldn't this be modded as funny?

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[bsane]

What would Dell, Asus, Acer, etc do? Stop selling windows? Switch to linux? Write their own OS?

This is a tiny example of their monopoly power. If they decided to screw Dell, the best thing they could do would be to liquidate the company and payback the shareholders.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[JoeCommodore]

Without the Windows skills/experience they won't be able to point out the flaws so easily:

"Blue screen of Death? Never heard of it."

"I've never had virus problems on my computer."

And then when customers come in to complain,

"I'm not familiar with that, call the support number." can be said without guilt.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[pckl300]

You're saying this as if Apple only sells Apple products in their store. Look around, there's Photoshop, a number of games, and third party accessories.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[khchung]

And what kind of career future or possible achievements would a genius salesperson have in a store where "selling stuff is not the main focus"?

If that's really Microsoft's position, then a top salesperson joining them for higher pay would be hurting his future career growth for near-term payout. Might work if you are near retiring, but not a good idea for younger "star" sales.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[Da VinMan]

Essentially, its retail as advertising. As capitalism ages everything essentially becomes the fashion industry. All style, perhaps a chance of substance.

Frankly, I find this idea for more interesting than anything else in this thread. Did this quote originate with you or someone else?

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly - what does Microsoft have to sell? Who is going to go into a store and buy boxed copies of Windows? I don't see this going anywhere for them. They can't sell PCs or they will have thousands of angry people chucking them through their storefront window when they can't get support. At least now when they can't get support, people can't hurt the tech on the other end of the phone line, 14,000 miles away....

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[sincewhen]

I expect MS to heavily promote the "home digital hub" solution theyve been talking about for the past 3 or 4 years.

Oh, you mean this digital hub?

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[gad_zuki!]

Well, the quote is mine but the idea is pretty old. You can read criticism about brands and advertising in a lot of places. PBS's Frontline "The Persuaders," the whole adbusters movement, the No Logo books, etc.

The only twist I added is the bit about becoming the fashion industry. If we all have the same access to capital and markets then the products we produce will more or less be the same and priced the same. So differentiation can only be done via advertising and branding, especially branding. Your gf is a Old Navy girl and you are an Apple guy. That kind of thing. We dont shop on price or features really anymore. Things like consumer reports are seen as gauche.

Re:Apple to MS Transferable Skills?

[Da VinMan]

Well, it certainly seems to apply in a number of areas. To wit:

- Clothing - Of course
- Computer hardware - Apple, Alienware
- Books - "Real Literature"
- Food - French Cuisine
- Music

Actually, there's probably a general market development pattern there that pretty much applies across most, if not all, areas of the economy. I think even financial investment instruments were affected by this (how else can anyone explain how Maddox, among others, did what he did?).

The world would probably appear to be much more sane to me if I hadn't (symbolically speaking) taken the blue pill a long time ago. As human beings, we're far too easily manipulated, and your observation along with my own over the years have demonstrated to me that capitalism needs an upgrade; that it's not the highest possible expression of/for human endeavor. The non-profit and creative commons models come closer, but those models seem to lack intrinsic motivators/reward mechanisms (e.g. greed in capitalism) and I'm assuming a good economic model needs one. Still looking I guess. Of course, there's lots I don't know, so if you know of better, I'm all ears.

kdawson sucks

[timmarhy]

since when is offering someone a better job with more money a "bribe". get the spin under control please. bribe implies something illegal is happening.

Re:kdawson sucks

[some_guy_88]

Way to ruin an otherwise perfectly good anti-microsoft story..

Re:kdawson sucks

[Tubal-Cain]

Bribe implies something illegal is happening.

Doesn't have to.

Re:kdawson sucks

[TRRosen]

a bride does not mean illegal just any incentive to do something they wouldn't normally do. Unless these people would have wanted to move to a MS store anyway it is a bribe.

Re:kdawson sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

A bride? Now that's if an incentive Slashdot can believe in. Especially if they come with a few enhancements. No reason to settle for anything less than a 7. A good set of boobs, a nose job, a tummy tuck, maybe some butt implants...

Is this a bad thing?

[malevolentjelly]

They're paying people more for their expertise. Why are we upset about this? This is really a stretch as far as Microsoft hatred goes on Slashdot.

They're looking for retail managers with comparable experience and offering them higher wages. Nobody has ever refuted that Microsoft was a better employer than Apple.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[westlake]

This is really a stretch as far as Microsoft hatred goes on Slashdot.

Nothing is too big a stretch when it comes to MS hate on SLashdot. It is the rubber band that never breaks.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[93 Escort Wagon]

Plus the Apple Stores have been an undisputed success story in a field littered with failure (Dell, Gateway, etc.). Microsoft is smart to hire folks that have some experience with what's been successful. I doubt it has much to do with what OS they use at home - heck, Microsoft stores may very well have a small space devoted to their Mac software.

I'm not a fan of the Redmond folks, but this looks like a smart business move on their part.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[mosb1000]

"Nobody has ever refuted that Microsoft was a better employer than Apple."

I suppose it depends whether you'd rather produce a quality product you can stand behind, or make loads of money by ripping off the public at large. The quality of the work has something to do with being a better employer after all. I know I'd rather work for Apple.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[_Sprocket_]

They're paying people more for their expertise. Why are we upset about this? This is really a stretch as far as Microsoft hatred goes on Slashdot.

Maybe you read something in to the article? I didn't see any MS hatred at all. Only what you noted - Microsoft trying to hire away top experience from a competitor. If you want to read something nefarious (or hateful) in that - that's your baggage.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[malevolentjelly]

Yeah, I hear it's really fun when Steve Jobs wanders into peoples' offices and starts threatening them.

I'm sorry, but I work for money and benefits. I completely disagree about Apple making quality products- they are simply a well polished technology recyclery.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[malevolentjelly]

I was talking about the comments, not the article.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[indiechild]

I don't think people are saying it's a bad thing as such. I think most just think it's amusing and it perfectly illustrates how MS lacks innovation and just copies what other companies like Apple are doing, despite the best efforts of MS fanboys to defend them.

Instead of coming up with your own high quality products and ideas, just muscle in on other people's. That's the MS way.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[malevolentjelly]

Do you have any idea how companies operate? ...name a big enterprise that doesn't purchase or borrow innovation. Your belief in the innovative enterprise seems rather naive.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[TRRosen]

Yeah, I hear it's really fun when Steve Jobs wanders into peoples' offices and starts threatening them.

Or when he takes their ipod and pretends to stomp on them...err ummm I mean when he throws chairs across the room,,,,,,wait no when he jumps up and down on stage like a sweaty monkey.... damn I got nothing

I'm sorry, but I work for money and benefits.

Then you need a new job!!

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[TRRosen]

unfortunately they're paying for sales expertise (and inside information) and not Windows expertise.

lets face it even if your a MS fan you must admit Ballmers sales culture is killing the company.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just curious why others like Dell, Gateway etc don't feel compelled to open Apple style retail store? Complete with locations near existing Apple stores, and staff poached from Apple store with higher salary?

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious as to why the others like Dell, Gateway etc. don't feel compelled to open Apple style retail store? Complete with locations near existing Apple stores, and staff poached from Apple stores with higher salary?

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[malevolentjelly]

They're hiring managers, not techs. Selling Windows doesn't take a lifetime of experience.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

They're paying people more for their expertise. Why are we upset about this?

You should be modded "funny" because it doesn't seem like anyone here is upset about this. Seriously, reading through the comments I don't see anyone saying MS shouldn't or shouldn't be able to do this. Certainly no one modded up.

This is really a stretch as far as Microsoft hatred goes on Slashdot.

It's more of a stretch that you're trying to paint the opinion of "Slashdot" as the exact opposite of the vast majority of posts.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[malevolentjelly]

When I first posted on this thread, there were a handful of comments, mostly talking about how Microsoft is stealing talent and this is somehow unfair or "just like Microsoft". You freetards have such a childlike understanding of business.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[93 Escort Wagon]

Just curious why others like Dell, Gateway etc don't feel compelled to open Apple style retail store? Complete with locations near existing Apple stores, and staff poached from Apple store with higher salary?

Dell and Gateway have both already tried and failed in the brick and mortar space. Gateway had full-fledged Gateway Stores, which I think all closed up during the dot-com bust. Dell had a bunch of kiosks set up in malls, where you could go in and order online (!) but not actually walk out with a computer - a bizarre and ill-conceived concept, to say the least.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[shirotakaaki]

Well, its either a skinny little turtleneck wearing guy screaming at you or a huge balding bastard throwing chairs. Take your pick.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[gbarules2999]

Oh, everybody steals from everybody else these days. Nothing new.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because when Steve walks into your office at least you know no chairs will be thrown.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[mosb1000]

"I'm sorry, but I work for money and benefits."

I'm sorry too. Would you really spend most of your waking hours doing pointless or sub-par work? Have you ever been to the DMV? That lifestyle sucks the life out of people.

I know Steve's an ass, but it has to feel good to see normal customers shamelessly peddling the things you've made because they think they're so great everyone else should use them too. Apple products are superior, you can tell because their users LOVE them! It's rare to see that in other computer or software products.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who uses the expression 'freetards' is in a pot/kettle situation when accusing people of being 'childlike'.

Re:Is this a bad thing?

[indiechild]

Then obviously Apple products are not for you. Isn't choice wonderful?

WOW

[Airdorn]

...and the problem with that is.... WHAT?

Re:WOW

[bennomatic]

Who said anything's wrong with it? Certainly not the article summary...

Re:WOW

[ZekoMal]

Yeah, the word bribery never had a negative connotation or anything...

Non Compete agreements?

[Anonymous Coward]

dont most employment agreements have a non compete clause.. especially manger and above. especially applying to recruiting you ex subordinates?

Re:Non Compete agreements?

[timmarhy]

not in retail. you don't have any technical or business knowledge in retail that poses a threat.

the spirit of the non compete isn't to stop you changing jobs anyway, they are there to protect the employer from being raped by the employee eg. taking clients and information with them.

Re:Non Compete agreements?

[harlows_monkeys]

At least for stores in California, a non-compete clause would be irrelevant, as those aren't enforceable under California law except in cases like the sale of a business.

Be careful

[AdamInParadise]

The employees that receive those offers should be careful. Apple is deeply committed to their stores, they are not going to disappear overnight. On the other hand, who knows how long those "Windows" stores are going to be open? And what are those stores going to sell again?

If you jump ship now, you may very well end up with a stain on your résumé when one anonymous exec at Microsoft decides (for some reason) to close all those stores.

Re:Be careful

[Anonymous Coward]

I see the MS shills are using their mod points today.

This: Apple is deeply committed to their stores, they are not going to disappear overnight. On the other hand, who knows how long those "Windows" stores are going to be open?

should probably be up-modded certainly not marked troll. It *is* very clear that Apple have a long term commitment to their stores and it's *not* at all certain that MS's stores will last very long.

interesting new angle

[v1]

It's interesting that they are initially hiring the managers, and not the salesmen, something which hasn't really been addressed in this thread. They're not after the salesmen, at least not initially, they're going after management. That makes one wonder if the motive is (A) to drain the management at apple or (B) to enhance it at microsoft? (or both equally?) Third possibility is that they don't care so much about the managers and are only interested in hand picking out the cherries in the retail or genius bar area as stated in the article.

All of this comes as no surprise to anyone. MS has already done what they do best, copy success. They did it with the ads, it only makes sense that they're doing it in the retail stores, best they can. It'll probably turn out as well as it has been for the most part lately... poorly.

Tossing my wild speculation into the pot, I'd say it looks like they want to see if there's something superior about apple's way of managing a retail store that they can assimilate into their stores, by way of transplanting a few managers over. The salesmen really don't matter in this, it's the managers selecting and hiring the salesmen that counts. There's too much churn in retail to accomplish much by stealing your competition's retail staff, and the gains are too short-lived. Should be interesting to see how this new application of "embrace, expand, exterminate" works for MS... (and I'm interested to see how Apple reacts to it? pay raises? no compete agreements? both?)

Re:interesting new angle

[NatasRevol]

That's true. But I also could not imagine the sales staff at an Apple store helping Windows using customers. Aside from a lack of experience, I imagine MS customers are more ... unhappy.

Re:interesting new angle

[mario_grgic]

It's so much cheaper to hire a manager, and ask them who their top sales reports were and hire them immediately, than it is to interview all the sales people and find out who were the best sellers.

Re:interesting new angle

[ubercam]

Well, if this battle royale is taking place in California, aren't non-compete clauses invalid there? There are exceptions, but I doubt the managers and sales staff are partners in the firm or anything extremely high-level like that.

Re:interesting new angle

[King_TJ]

I'm friends with a few former Apple employees, and all have said basically the same thing. Working at retail Apple stores was actually a lot of FUN around the 2001-2004 time-frame or so. OS X was just catching on, and Jobs had recently taken back the company, doing a top to bottom revamping of the entire product line. Generally, salespeople worked there because they really enjoyed and believed in Apple computers and OS X. Sure, they may not have been technical gurus, but they really did use the same stuff at home that they tried to sell you -- and their excitement about the new products was genuine.

Then came the dilution ... iPods playing a more pivotal role, AppleTV, iPhones everywhere, and all the "accessories" to sell along with those items. Before long, you were really more "qualified" to handle most Apple sales with a previous job in a music store than with a computer background! Even the techies working the "Genius bar" had to field questions all day long about someone's earbud headphone wires shorting out, or how come someone couldn't get the music back out of their iPod after they accidentally deleted their iTunes library, or sit on hold with AT&T half the day trying to get new iPhone activations completed.

So currently? Most Apple Store sales staff are just younger folks trying really hard to be "hip" and "trendy" - and chances are good they know very little about Apple's computing products. Sure, they might have received some official training about the basics, so they can show grandma or Aunt Sallie what iPhoto is all about... but it's no better than the assistance you'd get at Best Buy, overall.

Microsoft is likely well aware of this, so they don't stand to gain much by hiring away Apple's rank and file sales staff. Management would make more sense, if they think they can borrow some ideas on efficiency, product placement ideas that work, etc. etc.

Join us!

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't go for it (and I don't work for Apple), but money is money I suppose.

You have no idea of the remuneration of the Dark Side, Luke!

Poor Poached Apple employees

[Anonymous Coward]

  First they get taken illegally, then simmered slowly. That's gotta suck, compensation or no.

  TUMA

Bribery?

[Starcom8826]

Since when did paying people more for a job to get them to come to your company become bribery?

Re:Bribery?

[TRRosen]

since Webster dummy!

Consider the Source

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone really believe Arstechnica anymore?

The quality of the tech articles has gone to pot, the founders sold out, most of the worthwhile forum dwellers have moved on...it's really just another Conde Nast dead-tree echo chamber.

If you want decent tech reporting, anand is about all that's left.

Netcraft confirms it

[Anonymous Coward]

Steve Jobs is dying. And now the company can offload a bunch of people without having to pay out any severance or any other bennies. Very astute.

It's About Interfering with Apple

[BBCWatcher]

Yes, Microsoft needs staff for its stores. But Microsoft's whole "me too" retail strategy is about trying to disrupt and interfere with Apple's business model. That's the reason why Microsoft is trying to place their stores in close proximity to Apple's, for example. And if Microsoft can increase Apple's retail staffing costs, Microsoft would consider it money well spent. In short, Microsoft is all about trying to drag down Apple, not building up Microsoft.

Re:It's About Interfering with Apple

[realisticradical]

That's the reason why Microsoft is trying to place their stores in close proximity to Apple's, for example.

I wonder if that's the type of thing that will be good for the sales of both companies. Sort of like having the "auto mile" where lots of car dealerships are. When you're in the market for a certain type of product you go to the place where lots of competing stores are. It makes comparison shopping easier. Instead of going online or to BestBuy a customer might just go to the place where the Apple and Microsoft stores are because they can evaluate all their choices in one place.

One way to sell against Apple

[HycoWhit]

Not only is Microsoft helping to bring higher wages to the retail sector--but who better to sell against Apple, than the best of the Apple retail staff? If anyone can do a good job exposing the gaps in Apple's armor, I would think it would be the folks Microsoft is hiring.

Birmingham Apple Store

[CountBrass]

Let's hope they poach the staff from the Birmingham Apple Store: the craptard service they provide there is much more in line with Microsoft's standards than Apple's. The service is so awful there I sometimes I wonder if it's actually a fake store set up by Microsoft to discredit Apple.

Re:Birmingham Apple Store

[shec0002]

I find it strange the perception of when an apple employee is a "craptard" it isn't apple, but the employee. However when a M$ employee is a "craptard" it is how M$ works. As for M$ poaching, at first I thought it would be a bad idea, to bring white knights into the dark side of the forest, but after thinking about it, I would assume that Apple has hired Business oriented managers, of whom probably most spent their school years using windows, and the Apple fan boys won't think about betraying Lord Jobs, so M$ ends up plucking out the "best" Apple business employees, and leaves the Apple fan boys in charge, most zealots will eventually trip up.

Yummy...

[atomic-penguin]

Yummy, poached Apples!

Wait a minute, oh Apple employees. Well, I hope they're not boiling the employees in water or cider with cinnamon and sugar.

Good for Them

[Comatose51]

As much as some of us may hate Microsoft, this is a good thing for Apple employees. For those that leave for Microsoft, they will presumably get better wages. For those who don't, this will pressure Apple to give them more compensation or other benefits and perhaps rethink the value of their employees. Fair competition is a good thing.

Re:Good for Them

[Anonymous Coward]

I somehow doubt that considering they've never done that in the past. Apple employees generally get paid less then most of similar skill level, and definitely less then Microsoft employees, but many of them are there because of the 'coolness' factor.

Re:Good for Them

[NatasRevol]

I'd rather take home a smaller paycheck than have to use MS products for a living. $3/hr is about $6k/yr. I'd consider my personal happiness to be worth more than that.

Re:Good for Them

[TRRosen]

Apple retail employees already make more than most other retail employes This wont boost Apple pay but will be an impossible burden for MS stores to deal with...I just hope there is a good severance package these stores as viable as MS BOB was.

Re:Good for Them

[TRRosen]

Actually its the opposite here Apple retail employees make more than most. simplest position easily make twice that of a best buy employee.

Re:Good for Them

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Embrace
2. Extend
3. Extinguish

1. Welcome the poached managers with a group hug
2. Get them to bring their buddies so the Apple shops are staffless
3. Close the Microsoft shops - in fact, by now MS own all shops, so they close the entire high street

4. Profit!

They're poaching the wrong workers

[Spy Handler]

They should be poaching Steve Jobs instead.

People don't buy Apple products because the salesman is so knowledgable and courteous. They buy them because they want an iPod.

It's a COOKBOOK!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

They said their purpose is to "serve" man, and now we know what they really meant!

Re:It's a COOKBOOK!!!

[TheUMaskedAsshole]

It's commonly known that wild game cooked slow tastes better. TUMA

Pay Them In Laptops

[Nom du Keyboard]

Perhaps they are paid in the Laptop Unit of Currency (LUC's). Because Windows laptops cost less than Apple laptops (I saw this on TV so it must be true), Microsoft can offer a higher compensation level in LUC's than Apple at the same actual cost basis overall. Math wins out every time.

Does not compute

[webreaper]

Why bother poaching Apple retail staff? They're just sales droids. I'm not a Mac/iPhone owner, but I can see that the products would most likely sell themselves in a lot of cases.

Other than being disruptive by forcing Apple to waste time hiring (which seems a pretty inefficient way for MS to compete) why not just hire some people from outside the industry and do something innovative? It's not like there aren't people available and looking for work right now.

If MS really want to sell their low-quality but commoditised products to the masses with a load of spin and glitz, why not hire some of those who used to sell sub-prime mortgages? ;)

I see this as an opportunity to,,,

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask Microsoft store managers anything I want to. They won't have anything to do anyway. I doubt that their labodomies will take effect immediately

oh i disagree in measure

[TheCouchPotatoFamine]

oh i disagree in measure, i think that sometimes wise things have to BE SHOVED DOWN PEOPLES THROATS.
no really, i do. Or Win32 APIS will always be enough for everybody or something.. mumble mumble...

Microsoft Store????

[Anonymous Coward]

First time I ever hear of such thing. I just feel sorry for the guys who transfer now that windows 7 is coming up. They are going to work every penny of that wage.

Golden opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

Most pundits believe that this an MS catastrophe waiting to happen. By the time it's over Redmond will have lost 500 million in terms of leases, stale inventory, advertising, etc, etc...not to mention egg on their faces, which no longer seems to upset them

SJ knows he has the upper hand and already delivered Goliath the fatal blow; the crash may take three more years, but it's coming. What apple should do is give the managers who choose to leave an open ticket to return within let's say two years. I doubt MS has thought all this through. While they are hiring managers with retail expertise, those managers probably have a low tolerance for customers with computer problems that can't be solved. Apple stores are happy places; MS stores may not be. Apple managers seem more artsy fartsy people. MS managers will need to be computer geeks. And can you see the I'm a Mac/I'm a PC commercials in which Mac guy spots one of the managers in the PC shop and says, "Don't I know you?" and the guy lifts up his MS retail shirt, revealing the teal Apple manager underneath, then begs Mac guy to let him come back--exit Mac Guy downstage left, with a sniveling PC retail manager's arms wrapped around his legs at foot level

Re:Golden opportunity

[shec0002]

You do have a point the pos system, and the marketing in the apple stores is pretty idiot proof. Maybe the managers at the apple stores are useless drones.

Non-free A competes against Non-free B

[Statecraftsman]

News at 11. Go crazy you two. It's kinda cute.

Re:Non-free A competes against Non-free B

[initialE]

And here you are, giving away homemade tanks... That nobody wants.

Re:Non-free A competes against Non-free B

[Sardaukar86]

Starbucks, Harbringer of Death.

Um, isn't that a Harbinger?

..proud purveyors of pedantry for over a hundred years.

The price for Windows is right.

[JYD]

Now did they forget to mention the $10 Windows 7 Ultimate that Best Buy Geek Squads were getting for badmouthing Linux? But in this case, since it is treason rather than blasphemy, my guess is that Windows 7 comes free for any defectors.

Peace by god

[peacebygod]

You have to be smart in this land of capitalism. If you are a manager at Apple and Microsoft does start to take managers away this could work out for you very well. If the amount of good managers is cut down it makes you more valuble. You could become a district, or regional manager quicker; or even ask for more money. If everyone is leaving you'll probably get a sweeter deal for yourself by staying.

And the obligatory...

[PhunkySchtuff]

In Soviet Russia, jobs hunt you...

Re:And the obligatory...

[Sulphur]

In Czarist America, Bill hunts Jobs.

Totally misread that title

[The_mad_linguist]

I thought it said "Microsoft Repeatedly Punching Apple Retail Staff"

Poaching Apple Retail Staff

[zegebbers]

These employees better be careful or they'll end up in hot water. **boom boom**

you'd have to be crazy

[TRRosen]

thats like leaving the Pittsburgh Steelers to play for the Detroit Lions (with all due respect to Mr Foote)

Really like I'm going to leave the most successful retailer in the country to join some faltering companies crazy retail experiment.

But what will they sell?

[theolein]

I know Microsoft is frustrated and terrified that Apple is more popular than they are amongst the general public, but Microsoft is, and there's no surprise here, messing it up once again. While times are tough and people will take any job they can, I just cannot see someone selling Vista Home Basic Edition or Zune No One Wants Me Edition with the same passion as they would an iPod, iPhone or a MacBook Pro.

About the only product of Microsoft's that I can think of that is really popular (and not just by default like Windows or Office) is the Xbox.

In the end this will be just one more nail in Microsoft's coffin. Microsoft has copied or tried to copy almost everything that Apple does, from OS features (Win7 Dock, yay) to the Zune and the shops and now they're even trying to steal the staff because they have so little imagination, and still no one's interested.

The only way that Microsoft could ever really change would be to fire the stupid bastards in charge like Ballmer and co, and get younger people who are less nerdy and socially blind who understands brands and marketing and can see that your average person in the street has little interest in tech arguments and poor marketing.

Re:But what will they sell?

[mdwh2]

I know Microsoft is frustrated and terrified that Apple is more popular than they are amongst the general public

Your evidence for this claim, in the face of overwhelming sales figures that suggest otherwise? A minority shouting louder doesn't make it more true.

Of course, lots of people joke about Microsoft, but you hear a biased sample, as you don't take into account the large majority who are quite happy. Plus, the most popular product will always draw the most number of critics - because everyone's used it, every knows its flaws, where as if a Mac or RISCOS fan makes up stuff about how good his platform is, no one can challenge it, as no bugger's used it. Also it will draw the criticism that people would make of computers in general.

This happened with the Spectrum in the 80s, the Amiga in the 80s/90s, and back then I predicted it would happen to PCs and Windows as they became more popular. Don't mistake this for any meaningful measure of popularity - on the contrary, the criticism is precisely because they are popular.

I just cannot see someone selling Vista Home Basic Edition or Zune No One Wants Me Edition with the same passion as they would an iPod, iPhone or a MacBook Pro.

An Iphone? They're not competing with MS - for there, check out Nokia.

In the end this will be just one more nail in Microsoft's coffin.

Has netcraft comfirmed it yet? This is even more unlikely than the "Apple's is going bust" claims we've had for years.

Microsoft has copied or tried to copy almost everything that Apple does

Such as? Docks have been around in numerous platforms - I was using one in AmigaOS years ago. Lots of companies produced mp3 players, so suggesting MS copied them is nonsense. Lots of companies have retail shops, last time I looked. And "steal the staff" - could your bias be any less obvious? People are free to work for who they like, and Microsoft are free, just like every other company in existence, to offer whatever benefits and jobs they like. Unless you have evidence of illegal theft, this phrase is even less sensible than the claim that people are "stealing" mp3s.

Imagine if it was the other way round? You'd be first in line, praising Apple for how generous they were to workers, and citing it as proof that no one wants to work for MS!

Not sure it's wise

[crmarvin42]

I can see why MS would want to poach Apple's managers. Good retail managers are hard to find, but for the actual sales guys I'm a little confused. I had a buddy that worked for the Apples Store in the Westfarms Mall in CT, and I got the impression that the vast majority of the sales force were rediculously qualified Apple fans. I'm sure some knew windows, but most of them were multiple decade Apple users that new the platform backwards and forwards. My guess would be that they sold Macs so well because of what they knew and their passion for the platform. I don't see how that is going to translate to MS simple because of a bigger paycheck.

Apple Store Staff are Worth Hiring

[Phoenix666]

They are the only computer store personnel I've ever encountered who both understood computers and could explain them too. When OSX came out I walked into the store in SoHo and asked a random employee if he could show me how to open a terminal on one and he not only did so but dashed off a perl one-liner to demonstrate the robust UNIX heart under the eye candy.

More money isn't everything

[timholman]

The MIcrosoft retail experience is going to suck, and regardless of the higher pay, I don't think those employees who jump ship are going to have any fun working there.

What makes Apple a unique (and generally more pleasant) experience for both shopper and seller is the vertical integration of hardware and software for Apple products. For example, when you take a broken Apple product to the Genius bar, most of the time the employees can fix it or swap it out on the spot. And if they can't fix it themselves, they'll ship it to the people who can. Everything is taken care of for you. That is a huge advantage over your typical big box experience.

By contrast, too many of Microsoft's products are used on the hardware of other companies. I can only imagine how frustrating it will be for both employee and customer when a buyer brings in his broken Dell or HP or Toshiba or Asus and is told "Sorry, you have to contact the manufacturer." "But it runs Windows!" "Sorry, not our problem." It doesn't matter whose fault it is - people are going to be unhappy when that happens.

And software support will be a nightmare. Imagine the long, long lines of people with worm- and spyware-riddled Windows machines looking for help. Imagine telling a customer: "Yes, Windows is broken, but it's not our fault. You have to reinstall the operating system and fix it yourself. NEXT!"

About the only thing a Microsoft store will be able to do better is repair or swap out broken Zunes and Xboxen on the spot. In every other respect, I predict it will be a hellish experience for the people who work there.

Re:More money isn't everything

[freedom_india]

I don't agree.
Money is a GREAT motivator.
Plus what makes Apple a great brand is the pride its salespeople have in it.
Kinda like snooty, Lords who think anyone who does not own a Mac is inferior.
Microsoft's many systems may be a Joke, but NOT Windows 7 and MS Office.
Inspite of what Open Office/Star Office and Lotus can do, you just CANNOT beat MS Office.

And Windows 7 is a very worthy competitor to Mac OS X.
I have run Windows 7 since its RC-1 days (and now i have the RTM installed: i became a technet subscriber to take advantage).
I have found it the MOST stable MS has produced to far.
Far stable than XP and a faster than Vista.

Till today i did NOT face a single BSOD: which is surprising since every 3 months i usually have to hard-reboot XP for some reason.
Even when it appeared it had crashed, Windows 7 recovered and continued to shut down when it appeared unresponsive.

I would be proud to work for Microsoft now.
(and NO, iam NOT joking. I love Java/J2EE a lot. I also own an iBook).

Re:More money isn't everything

[gujo-odori]

While Windows 7 does appear to be possibly the best Windows Microsoft has ever done - and I am impressed by the fact that they knew they had to exceute well on it or get slaughtered in the marketplace, because Windows Vista was a disaster and Microsoft knows this regardless of what public face they put on it - I would not want to go back to work for Microsoft again. The culture is just too pathological. I now work for a Microsoft competitor (not Apple; I use a Mac but wouldn't want to work there; everything I've heard from people who do makes me think it would be eerily similar to working at Microsoft) and like my job, my boss, the work I do, the money I make - in short, everything - better than I liked Microsoft.

Could Microsoft offer me enough money to go back there? Maybe. If they put an absolutely ridiculous amount of money on the table, I might not be able to ignore it. I wouldn't enjoy it, but money talks and providing very well for one's family matters, too. So, yeah, they could. Would they? I doubt it. They made kind of a pass at me once, and I said I don't think you could offer what it would take to even get me to think about it. They asked how much that would be. I told them, and the answer was "You're right, I don't think we could offer that much." I didn't tell them that my number was only what it would take to get me to think about it, and the number it would take to get me to say "yes" is even larger.

That may sound greedy, but when I left Microsoft, I got a substantial raise at my new gig, and I've done well there since. The number I floated was one that I will reach anyway either next year or the year after, just from staying in this job, which is in a place that I like better than Redmond, at a company that I like better than Microsoft. So yeah, they could bribe me to go back, but they wouldn't. Heck, *I* even think they'd be nuts to offer me what it would take to get me to say yes :)

Re:More money isn't everything

[freedom_india]

True,
All very true.
The culture of Microsoft changed from an innovative one to a dictatorship and arrogance and now back to excellence.
It is a pity that a company that produces such excellent books like "Code Complete" can't follow its own books.
The pressure in market place forced them to produce an excellent product: Windows 7.
But it also validates Vista's architecture base. Which means Vista's architecture was great, its execution shoddy.
I agree that money plays a very important role in all these.
But as you said it money doesn't mean everything.
In 1990s i would have loved to work at Microsoft.
In 2000s i preferred to work at Sun.
Now i prefer IBM.

How much more...

[mario_grgic]

how much more money do they need to offer you for you to change your title from "Genius" to "Reboot Monkey"

Poaching? With rifles? Or well-aimed chairs?

[Anonymous Coward]

No text....

And no one's mentioned this yet?

[Finni]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/7/20/ Suspended in a perpetual nightmare

this isn't even confirmed

[nimbius]

news. ars says "supposedly" in TFA and only cites one anonymous source. in the grand tradition of the internet, i say "pics or it didnt happen."

pay "raise"

[Anonymous Coward]

so MSFT pays them $10/hr vs the $9/hr AAPL pays?

Two more differences...

[klubar]

Two more differences.... Microsoft chases the corporate market much more aggressively -- and has an OS and marketing strategy tuned to those market's needs (centralized control, scalability). And Microsoft has a broader product line (besides a scalable, supported server) they have a significant game business--both hardware and software. The retail locations will be able to push XBox and MS Studio Games--something that Apple really can't offer.

Money Talks, Employees Walk...

[zuctronic]

It's a shame Microsoft can't recruit employees from the large pool of unemployed folks.

Re:Money Talks, Employees Walk...

[SenFo]

While I'm not against what your saying, looking at this from a business standpoint, it could make sense because it's easy for Microsoft to find staff with the required sales experience. It could also backfire if, for example, the staff at the Apple store is anti-Microsoft.

Re:IT'S MADONNA'S BIRTHDAY TODAY!

[Runaway1956]

Who the hell is Madonna? What did she ever do for IT? Get off my lawn, ya little freak!

Internet

[jDeepbeep]

My, is there anything that Apple didn't "invent"?

The internet. Al Gore invented that.

Re:Internet

[MrNaz]

Yea but according to some guy who gave a keynote at some conference, he actually stole the idea from Steve Wozniak.

They aren't rocket scientists...

[Anonymous Coward]

they're managers of a retail store, that stocks items that sell themselves and who manage people who are zealots for their product. It not like they have to have a lot of "closing the sale" type of experience, or constantly wonder where their employees are. I think they would be better off finding a top manager of a Radio Sha... I mean, The Shack.

Re:IT'S MADONNA'S BIRTHDAY TODAY!

[Gilmoure]

Someone's mother, I think.

Look at Sony stores

[snowwrestler]

Sony sells very nice computers that use Windows OS. They have stylish stores that also sell their other consumer items like TVs, video game systems, e-books, netbooks, etc. Yet, they don't do nearly as well as Apple stories. In the Pentagon City mall near DC, the Apple and Sony stores are right next to each other. Every time I've been there, the Apple store always has far more people in it than the Sony store.

Apple does three things very well in their stores. First, they have great products. That's where retail success starts. Second, they offer tech support and personal training, for reasonable prices, in the store. Third, they staff their stores very, very heavily. I think every time I've been in the Apple store there have been at least 8 employees on the floor, and that is in a store not much bigger than 1000 sq ft. That is ridiculously heavy staffing for retail. You can always get a question answered practically right away.

Re:Look at Sony stores

[microcars]

"...That is ridiculously heavy staffing for retail."

and they can afford to staff it well with AVERAGE annual sales per sq ft of ~$4000
for comparison: Best Buy = $971, Target = $300
Average Mall Store sales (for other stores) are around $400 per sq ft.

ref from 2006: "so Johnson then offered some comparison between Apple and electronics retailer Best Buy. An Apple store does 67% of the revenue of a typical Best Buy store, he said, in just 10 percent of the square-footage."

Re:Look at Sony stores

[m.ducharme]

But that's a chicken-and-egg problem. Do they staff their stores highly because they have great sales per square foot, or do they get great sales per square foot because they staff the stores well (and keep the square footage down)?

Re:Look at Sony stores

[Grishnakh]

Can you bring in your computer to a Sony store and have a Sony rootkit installed?

Re:Look at Sony stores

[indi0144]

Sure! You can also ask for the guy to check for mp3s in your hard drive so they can sue your ass for the ones from the mafiaa labels, there is even a lawyer with a calculator just under the counter ready to party! ALL IN ONE PLACE!!

Mod parent up! Excellent points.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent UP!

"I just cannot see someone selling Vista Home Basic Edition or Zune No One Wants Me Edition with the same passion as they would an iPod, iPhone or a MacBook Pro."

Re:When the Microsoft stores fail, what happens?

[fafaforza]

That's the gamble that those that choose to leave will have to make, won't they? I'd also be inclined that the stores will fail. But whoever switches will be taking a higher income with a decrease in security. But at the same time, who's to say Apple wouldn't close a store anyway, and put that same person out of work?

I see a new commercial

[Anonymous Coward]

the mac gets offered cash to become a pc...

mICROsoft .retail .formula©

[viralMeme]

"Microsoft, besides copying Apple's retail formula, is now going after Apple's retail employees"

How soon will they be going after Apple for stealing the Microsoft .retail .formula©

Re:is there anything that Apple didn't "invent"?

[Herschel Cohen]

Yes: the sole rights to "innovate".

While snide, there is truth in both my riposte and your assertion of seeming slant in favor of Apple. Yes raises and covering moving expenses used to be standard when one accepted a new position, those are standard recruiting tools plus the vision of professional advancement whether it is ever realized or not.

Difficult Choices

[Tablizer]

Hmmmm, money, or tail?

And this is news because...

[ExoDemon]

This is exactly what happened when the Apple Store opened here in southern Maine, only Apple contacted all of the Starbucks stores in the area looking for managers and employees. I know several managers and employees who were hired into the Apple retail store directly out of their Starbucks positions.

*shrug*

Re:selling junk yard class equipment ...

[Herschel Cohen]

Apples vs MS quality in hardware is not that easily characterized. The Zune (though I would never buy one) is not per se inferior. We may argue about style, however, please recognize that the latter perception is tightly coupled to the current cultural milieu NOT a verity of nature. Apple sells a limited number of products that may themselves be of deficient quality, but at a premium.

MS's problem is greed and the visceral need to own all significant fractions of a market completely.

Apple's forte is greed coupled with the careful selection of high return market niches (some of which may balloon) entirely that they can command (aka "own") without significant competition.

Can I still wear my...

[Tablizer]

...blue shirt with the white fix-pitched font?
   

Why they're going after managers now

[snowwrestler]

1) The store manager is typically the first person you need to hire to open a store. They'll then hire the rest of the staff.
2) Retail management skills are very transferable. The principles of managing a Barnes and Noble are not that different from managing a hardware store or an Apple store. You need to hire great staff, train them, schedule them, manage inventory, track and set sales goals, and keep an eye on payroll.
3) Experienced managers will know good salespeople in the area who they can poach for the new jobs.

Apple is famously good at retail, so it stands to reason that their current store managers are probably pretty good (presumably the bad ones have been fired already). They might bring some good ideas from Apple that MS could steal, but that really depends on Microsoft's willingness to learn. Often in retail the upper management is much more interested in pushing down initiatives and plans than on learning from their store managers.

This is the year

[snowwrestler]

This is the year of Linux in the storefront!!

Wrong strategy, Wrong product

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to insult anyone in retail management, but from my experience retail management types are pretty much the same everywhere you look. I don't see the advantage of taking a competing store's management other than trying to hurt that other store, and even that is temporary until another one of the hordes of retail management come to take their place. It's generally all the same skill set needed wherever you are in retail, with slightly different policies.

They would probably be better off looking everywhere rather than just Apple for staff, as they are trained to support a wholly different ecosystem.

The reason Apple stores do well is because their company has positioned themselves well for the retail market. They provide the whole experience themselves. Their in house support works because of this. You can go in with little chance of somebody saying "your problem lies with another vendor, go see them please". From a support tech's view this is great because you no longer have somebody looking to you for answers and you can write it off as completed, but results in a poor experience for the customer. Now they have to find somebody else via less-than-pleasant routes such as phone or email support, and it takes a special type of person to enjoy that.
When you have problems on a Mac it's very likely to be an issue Apple is responsible for supporting. While this has its downsides for geeky types (arguable point, I know), it has very obvious benefits to the average user since that "Genius" at the bar has a significantly higher probability of fixing your issue right there on the spot.
Microsoft is not selling this type of experience, they pride themselves on running on all different types of hardware coming from an extremely large pool of vendors, I don't see a way to compete on the same level.

Microsoft, find your strong points and refine and expand them. Don't try to be Apple. Compete with Apple on the level they compete, innovation. Stop being a follower and start being a leader.

Hopefully They'll Improve the Retail Experience...

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever tried to walk into an Apple store on the weekend and buy something? ....good luck. While I appreciate the fact that they're popular and busy, the model for their retail store frustrates buyers who know what they want, and simply want to buy it. Since there are no cash registers nor lines to check out you have to find someone not busy who will ring-up your sale on their hand held POS device. Usually this winds up being an exercise in futility. You have to guess which Apple employee will finish their sales pitch to the potential consumer first then try to beat the others waiting in the same situation to the punch. ...not a very effective model I'd say. Then on top of that, if you do have a problem you have to make an appointment. What if you're traveling and you need attention immediately to a critical issue? I'll stand in line to get it fixed. ...but wait, there are no appointments available on short notice for 3 days. I've got a dead iPhone and need it replaced a.s.a.p. I need someone to simply verify it's dead. I have an extended warranty. I just need to exchange it for another. ...No way. You have to have an appointment. Then once you do get in to work with a tech they are multi-tasking handling 6 other problems and time slicing between them. Enough so that if I hadn't insisted they keep the phone for several hours and try to reproduce the problem I would have been stuck again with a dead phone.

My point is. The products are hugely in demand and they need qualified sales people and technicians to deal with consumers. However, their retail model is broken and they either don't know it or don't care. Microsoft should learn from the problems with the Apple Store model in addition to hiring some of their more qualified staff. The reason the stores are successful is due to the popularity of their product and their forward thinking design. ...not because their stores are incredibly efficient or particularly customer friendly. I find them neither. If they weren't the only game in town I would have gone elsewhere. Love the product. Hate their retail store experience.

Chuck Zune reference

[AgentPhunk]

There was a great line in the TV show 'Chuck', in "Chuck vs. Tom Sawyer", where he -really- needed to hear a Rush song right away. He asks his co-worker "Hey, do we have any Rush in the store?" and the other guy says "No need, man, I got it right here on my Zune.." Chuck replies, shocked, "Dude?! You've got a ZUNE!!?". The other guy replies "hahaha no man, but its right here on my iPod."

CLASSIC line that only a geek can appreciate.

Steve Ballmer should pay Penny Arcade for advice.

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL. Mod parent up.

All MS needs to say to Apple kids

[taperkat]

is that they're more special by NOT working for Apple.

One of the biggest main lines in the Apple store I worked for (and left - i started between $11 and $12 an hour in Northern VA btw) was that you were SPECIAL by working for Apple, and you were giving people a world, etc. So what if they paid more, etc.

I was one of the few people there that didn't own a Mac (the discount would have been great to use, but they didn't pay me enough to buy it in the first place) so whenever someone would talk about switching from Windows, I was the one to sell them - or not sell them - a Mac.

Honestly most of the times I sold Macs were because they could dual boot windows and go to the mac side if they felt like it.

was very very very happy to leave Apple after the corporate hiding of sexual harassment, the divulging personal info to managers that were fired for said sexual harassment, and many many other things.

(For the record, I still only own an iPod.)

Re:selling junk yard class equipment ...

[Divebus]

It's fascinating that Microsoft publicly slaps Apple's "cool" factor in the face and yet they're desperately trying to reproduce it. Making a commodity product that stands out is enormously difficult, especially when you don't make the product. That's the only reason the Zune and the Store exists. Microsoft got tired of turd polishing commodity music players and made the Zune. They got tired of Big Box stores looking uncool and are opening their own stores. How long before they start making their own PCs and knife the PC makers? It's a matter of time.

What Microsoft should be doing is selling Windows licenses to Mac users and interoperating more with that platform. Isn't that what they're supposed to be doing? Selling software? They shouldn't - and don't - care what hardware it's running on. Microsoft could make a $49 VM bundle out of Windows that runs as an application or could submerge the Mac OS completely. They could create one version of Office that requires their VM bundle to run on the Mac but integrates completely with the Mac and the Enterprise. All their other software would run on the Mac as well. Many people have figured out the Mac is the universal machine in this way. What Microsoft is doing now is a waste of time. They've really lost their way on who they are. Stop trying to kill everyone else and get back to selling software and interoperability.

Apple sells a lot of consumer products and the halo draws them into the stores and their computers, if for no other reason than iPod owners come into the store to pick out a belt clip and get exposed to the Mac for the first time. Microsoft sells computer related products but recognizes they have to create their own halo effect (no pun) to retain some of the computer customers leaving them. Apparently, none of their manufacturing friends can create sufficient "cool" as witnessed by the previous "Plays For Sure" disaster and the current ho-hum PC lineup. Every PC except for the Mac is a commodity. Every music player except for the iPod is a commodity. It's really killing them to see Apple flanking their core market share and they're hurting themselves by not embracing a desirable product line.

You've kind of summed it up. Each Company has a line of products and a line of marketing BS that goes along with it. It's been working well for Apple lately and Microsoft wants to reverse that trend any way they can. Consumers think this is about ease of use, choice in software, freedom with media and such. No, it's about making money. Period.

This would be a perfect time for Apple to license their OS to other PC makers who can build high quality products. The shoe would be on the other foot. The PC makers could tell Microsoft to not make PCs or they'll stop shipping Windows.

More expensive

[SuperKendall]

It's so much cheaper to hire a manager, and ask them who their top sales reports were and hire them immediately, than it is to interview all the sales people and find out who were the best sellers.

It doesn't turn out to be so much cheaper when you hire the top salesmen and discover the reason why they were such good salespeople is because they were really fond of what they were selling, and they had a lot of product knowledge that let them answer questions easily.

What you describe is a recipe for turning really good salespeople into mediocre ones.

I'd invest more effort finding the good salespeople from places that sell Windows stuff.

Re:More expensive

[mario_grgic]

Agreed. But their thinking is probably that good sales people are good sales people no matter what they sell. I'm not a sales person, so I don't really know if that is true or not, but my thinking is that it is not.

If Microsoft doesn't think this then their only motive for hiring Apple employees would be to weaken Apple, and I don't know if they would do it for that reason alone.

Re:More expensive

[cabjf]

The real thought behind this is more likely that the manager built the sales crew up. It's like hiring a good front office and coaches for a sports team. They will build a good team for you if you have the resources available. Not to mention that most of the sales staff is probably temporary (such as those working through school).

Re:More expensive

[petermgreen]

Agreed. But their thinking is probably that good sales people are good sales people no matter what they sell. I'm not a sales person, so I don't really know if that is true or not, but my thinking is that it is not.
My guess is it would be true for some but not for others. Afaict being good at sales requires you to either have a passion for the product or to be able to pretend that you do.

I suspect MS is hoping that the managers they recruit will be able to tell one from the other.

Uhm, the opposite probably happens often too

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm. OSX runs on what? Macs right? Windows runs on... How many different brands?
When are people going to get their stories straight?

Developing your (possibly ok) Operating System to work on the computers you develop yourself is a simple trick.

It's a different ballgame out there for Microsoft, who ensure PC users can get the hardware producers to compete and
get a fair hardware deal in return.

And why is everybody picking up on a lame story like this one?

And never heard of Apple hiring someone that had been working for Microsoft?
That happens too. I know of one case and it was for a senior management position in Europe.
Is that a big deal? Does that hurt any of you Mac-Illuminati?

Anyways, how can one be supportive of a company that sells hardware, the iPhone, basically a small touchscreen computer with inbuilt phone, but
keeps full control of what apps can run on it?

Microsoft may be attacked for it's monopoly positions but the company who effectively has carved out a monopoly by its incompatible, control-freak development & branding is Apple.

Re:Apple Store staffing

[microcars]

Well, my *guess* based on observations of other retail stores opening up is that they STARTED with a lot of staff and while other stores would cut back after a month or so (I'm looking at you Home Depot!), Apple probably found that the volume and income per sq ft justified them keeping the staff.
Once they started opening more stores it would appear they could afford to sufficiently staff even the smaller ones based on the results they were getting.

I recall reading someplace that Apple did not hire any market consultants for the retail stores except to examine Gateway to find what they did wrong.
Everything else appears to be them just making it up as they go along!

Noncompete

[BabyPanther]

Although we all know that noncompetes hold little water, I wonder if the Apple employees have noncompetes in their employment contract that might stop them or at least cause them some pain/frustration.

The geek plays this card too often

[westlake]

People buy Windows because they are either (1) too ignorant and scared to use anything else (be it Mac or Linux), or (2) they are gamers and have no need for people to sell them a Windows box, they'd buy it anyway.

The Windows shopper can reasonably expect to see the broadest range of product in both hardware and software.

Walmart.com alone lists about 50 systems from the netbook to the media PC eligible for a free upgrade to Win 7.

The Windows shopper has an existing and substantial ten to fifteen year investment in Windows hardware and software - which isn't likely to be a problem so long as he stays within the Windows family.

The JAVA store, the FOSS app, is a non-issue. He has that already. He also has Netflix and iTunes and Quicken.

The price of migration is real. That isn't FUD - it's fact.

You don't win friends by calling them stupid - when they are not. You don't win friends by calling them cowardly - when they are not.

Employment contracts...

[PhotoGuy]

There may be some "non-comp" clauses (where valid). I realize non-comp's aren't always enforceable, but the managers probably have something (or should have something) in their employment contracts which prevents taking company data (including employee lists), and poaching employees...

Apple got its start this way too

[AccretionDilution]

Very interesting read on AAPL's start into retail: http://lowendmac.com/orchard/08th/roots-of-the-apple-store.html Even if no one actually buys from the store, it is a place for people to touch and feel the products. This is especially effective for a brand that sells "it just works" devices like the ipod.

The problem starts with the name.

[jotaeleemeese]

I would be embarrassed to say I went to a "genius bar".

Honestly, I would just say I went to Apple's support desk, why should I play their stupid language idiocy?

MS wants to replicate Apple's retail success

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I hear it's really fun when Steve Jobs wanders into peoples' offices and starts threatening them.

Apparently you've never heard of Steve Ballmer. This is the guy who was notorious for stalking the hallways yelling at the top of his lungs "It ships on schedule or you're all fired!". He actually had to have throat surgery because his vocal cords were damaged by shouting. True story. Ballmer is a loud-mouthed bully who likes to intimidate underlings, and the chair-throwing incident is typical of his character. That being said, Microsoft has always been known as a great place to work. I know several Microsofties and they absolutely love working there.

But I digress. While I do agree that attempting to hire employees away from a rival is a non-story (happens every day in all business sectors), this is news because it reinforces the perception that Microsoft is once again copying Apple. And in this case they have excellent reasons for wanting to copy Apple. When Apple announced that they were opening retail stores, analysts were falling all over themselves to be the first to declare that Apple was making a stupid and expensive mistake, and that the Apple Stores were doomed to fail. Fast forward a few years. In terms of sales per square foot, the Apple Store is by far the most successful retailer in the U.S., despite their high-rent locations. The retailer in second place, Tiffany's, has sales per sq. ft. that is just over half of Apple's figure.

When the GM Building, the home of Apple's 5th Avenue flagship store, was sold earlier this year, the prospectus had info on all the buildings tenant's, including sales figures for the previous year. The Apple Store reported 2008 sales of $440 million. To put that astonishing figure into perspective, Palm Inc.'s revenue for the same period was $1.3 billion. In other words, a single store posted one-third the entire revenue of a major rival . Just as eyebrow-raising is the fact that the combined sales of the three largest Apple Stores in New York was $600 million, just under half of Palm's revenue for the same period. Only an idiotic CEO wouldn't want to replicate that kind of success, and if Microsoft thinks that hiring away Apple Store managers will help them get a ticket on that gravy train, then more power to them. They have the luxury of a mountain of cash to invest in their retail venture, and while it may not pan out, the potential rewards are vast, as Apple has dramatically demonstrated. They'd be fools not to attempt it.

They "might" be good salespeople...

[vaporland]

...but at The Microsoft Store® they'll be selling shit and calling it Shinola. I like Apple's products, but I am not nearly as impressed with their salespeople - most of them are awfully snooty.

Microsoft better make sure one of them brings along Steve's reality distortion field - they're gonna need it...

It's Microsoft...

[docwatson223]

they've stolen everything else from Apple, why should employees be any different??

show up late and complain

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously..
You were late, make another appointment and show up on time, or don't complain about it. Its like missing a doctors appointment, except these appointments don't cost you anything.
And they did fit you in eventually.