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Microsoft Says Google Chrome Frame Makes IE Less Secure

Mark writes "The release of Google Chrome Frame, a new open source plugin that injects Chrome's renderer and JavaScript engine into Microsoft's browser, earlier this week had many web developers happily dancing long through the night. Finally, someone had found a way to get Internet Explorer users up to speed on the Web. Microsoft, on the other hand, is warning IE users that it does not recommend installing the plugin. What does the company have against the plugin? It makes Internet Explorer less secure. 'With Internet Explorer 8, we made significant advancements and updates to make the browser safer for our customers,' a Microsoft spokesperson told Ars. 'Given the security issues with plugins in general and Google Chrome in particular, Google Chrome Frame running as a plugin has doubled the attack area for malware and malicious scripts. This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take.'"

459 comments

  1. kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    stones/glasshouses

    1. Re:kettle/black by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I know. Ho hum. Someone tell Microsoft to wake me up when they get around to actually making a decent browser. How many years has it been? 13 years?

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    2. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps you don't remember, but IE 5 was LIGHTYEARS ahead of Netscape. There's a reason EVERYBODY dumped Netscape, and it wasn't just "it came with Windows", because at first, it didn't...

      Also, IE7 and 8 (on Vista and Windows 7) has a bunch of really impressive security features, albeit they're still behind in standards. And "accelerators" are extremely useful.

      That said, I still use Firefox (Somebody PLEASE make AdBlock Plus for Chrome and IE please! )

    3. Re:kettle/black by Vindicator9000 · · Score: 5, Funny

      But really, no one should throw stones, right? As a kid, I was always taught that it's not nice to throw stones at people. Unless of course, you were trapped in a glass house and needed to get out. If you have a pile of stones next to you, go ahead and throw them. Then you won't be trapped anymore! So really, people in glass houses are the only ones who should throw stones. Right?

    4. Re:kettle/black by Chabil+Ha' · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Perhaps you don't remember, but IE 5 was LIGHTYEARS ahead of Netscape.

      Great, that happened *ten* years ago. What has happened since? They've been chasing the Fox for past *five* years.

      --
      We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
    5. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dimitri martin's standup doesn't transfer well to text ;)

    6. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Perhaps you don't remember, but IE 5 was LIGHTYEARS ahead of Netscape.

      Great, that happened *ten* years ago. What has happened since? They've been chasing the Fox for past *five* years.

      Great, except I was responding to somebody who claimed that Microsoft hadn't made a DECENT browser in THIRTEEN years. 6 was fine when it came out, if nothing special, but 5, 7, and 8 have all had some pretty good features. Features that would make me drop AdBlock Plus? Hell no! But saying they can't make a 'decent' browser is just flamebait.

    7. Re:kettle/black by djnforce9 · · Score: 1, Informative

      @Post #29527707:

      "That said, I still use Firefox (Somebody PLEASE make AdBlock Plus for Chrome and IE please! )"

      Somebody already did create ad blocking software for IE but unfortunately it's not freeware and won't work with Adblock plus subscriptions (at least it didn't when I last tried it).

      The name of the addon is called Adblock Pro.

    8. Re:kettle/black by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 3, Funny

      people in glass houses are the only ones who should throw stones. Right?

      Wrong. People in glass houses shouldn't undress.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    9. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also, IE7 and 8 (on Vista and Windows 7) has a bunch of really impressive security features...

      And even more impressive bloat, *especially* with regards to screen real estate, even with all the bars disabled. It's as if IE is parodying itself. Ever try using IE8 on a netbook? It doesn't work, you have to enter kiosk mode for it to be remotely useful. There's no thought to form or function, they just barfed menus all over the place and called it "progress".

    10. Re:kettle/black by Kagetsuki · · Score: 5, Informative

      IE 5 was great, but MS making IE5 great and taking the market lead seems to have given them the idea that they could implement their own features all on their own and make everyone conform to their standards, which they are still doing now. The thing is the way Internet explorer implemented a lot of features gave a lot of things that just couldn't be easily done or done at all until HTML5 was actually adopted. The problem there is that HTML 5 took forever. Evolution of the web by its own standards committee has been gruelingly slow and the massive amount of garbage that has come out in-between and the amount of junk included in HTML 5 itself is astounding. Even if you could say some new features submitted are great there is just so much overlapping of features it's hard to tell what is the best way to do anything now. Do you write a site with canvas and hope people using IE will install chrome frame? Do you write two versions of the same site, one using "standard" HTML 5/XML Namespaces/SVG/Canvas and one using whatever Microsoft developed 5 years ago to achieve the same thing but in the Microsoft way? Speaking of SVG, the Adobe SVG plugin for IE can't read modern SVG files and the google SVG to flash translator breaks if you use any other new web technology with it (xlink for example). And don't even get me started on how terrible Flash is, it's just depressing. Java web launch? Has anybody even heard of it? How many general PC users even have the Java plug-in properly installed (I'm betting 3 year old can count that high)? The internet sucks and it sucks in two different directions: the "anything goes and we'll do whatever we want Microsoft direction" and the "we'll do everything you want but we'll fight about how to do it for 5 years, then never actually call the standard finalized so we can just arbitrarily change it and if any browser developers complain we'll just tell them they shouldn't have implemented it if it wasn't finalized" W3C/Gecko/Webkit/Opera direction.

      Maybe we should just start over completely. Make a new standard that doesn't rely on the rigid and inflexible concept of tags and use a scripting language and have a standard API. Leave HTML for TEXT formatting, and return it back to a document formatting language, leaving dynamic content to a totally separate system....

    11. Re:kettle/black by Hatta · · Score: 4, Funny

      Making IE less secure is like making water more wet.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    12. Re:kettle/black by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      So that's why I dumped FF after using IE8 for a while? I NEVER used IE before 7 unless forced.. started using 7 a bit more and then after trying 8 I decided it was time to switch.

    13. Re:kettle/black by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even if that person is Bree Olson?

    14. Re:kettle/black by noundi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft Says Google Chrome Frame Makes IE Less Secure

      Of course they do! Disregard the fact that they provide no evidence at all, and that they use this:

      Google Chrome Frame running as a plugin has doubled the attack area for malware and malicious scripts.

      as an argument to prove their point (???), but really, this is Googles way of taking over the MS userbase as explained here, and MS knows it. If Google wave becomes a hit, people will remember this move as the first important joust won by Google. IE with its crippled javascript hopes to prevent the popularity of Google wave by using scorched earth policy.

      --
      I am the lawn!
    15. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only thing that keeps IE 8 or Chrome from being my main browser... Lack of AdBlock Plus, the only ad blocking plugin that has ever truly worked.

    16. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      he/she is not the big ____. What does yu mean?

    17. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps you don't remember, but IE 5 was LIGHTYEARS ahead of Netscape. There's a reason EVERYBODY dumped Netscape, and it wasn't just "it came with Windows", because at first, it didn't....

      Yes I do, it was crap even then, compare its CSS support to Mozilla 5 (Netscape 6):

      http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/table.html

      IE has always been a pain, it was just less bad than Netscape 4 for a while.

    18. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unless your glass house has a door. or a big window. I believe an egress window is required by most codes. If you're renting said glass house with no egress, take it up with your landlord.

    19. Re:kettle/black by poetmatt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      you're one of the rarest groups of all the fish in the pond, so to speak, per-se.

      Most of us like companies that patch vulnerabilities much faster/make browsers that are standards compliant, both from a legal perspective (meaning our employers are happier -not for me personally), and also from a safety/update perspective.

    20. Re:kettle/black by Deathlizard · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Somebody PLEASE make AdBlock Plus for Chrome and IE please!

      IE8 has it built in with Inprivate filtering. You can also import lists to filter URL's similar to AdBlockPlus. Although it's not as conveniently automatic or as seamless, it works pretty well.

      There's a good amount of info in this thread at DSLReports.
      http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22124619-IE8-InPrivate-filter-from-adblock-plus-list

    21. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Perhaps you don't remember, but IE 5 was LIGHTYEARS ahead of Netscape.

      Could you actually give some examples of these "lightyears" of differences? I remember them being very similar, IE was faster but Netscape had just as much if not more features and even bloat with it's whole communicator suite of programs. It was just more easier to use a pre-installed IE, and also it being faster played the biggest role in their dominance. And no, "supporting activeX technology" is not something I would consider being lightyears ahead.

    22. Re:kettle/black by Bucc5062 · · Score: 1

      Maybe we should just start over completely. Make a new standard that doesn't rely on the rigid and inflexible concept of tags and use a scripting language and have a standard API. Leave HTML for TEXT formatting, and return it back to a document formatting language, leaving dynamic content to a totally separate system....

      This has to be the most reasoned thought I've read on slashdot about web develop period. I watch in amazement how the IT industry tries to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, suing bastardized splicing of tags and code to make a current web page/site work. The process reminds me more of my days working on minis developing UI forms and putting code in the same code base. It was ugly.

      The idea of providing common APIs and separating form processing from HTML would be a nice change. Wont happen, but something to wish for before I retire (someday).

      --
      Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
    23. Re:kettle/black by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1

      I think their worry is that if it becomes popular and IE gets hacked because of the plugin, IE could get blamed for it... just like Firefox gets blamed(wrongly) for faults in the extensions.

      --
      This space for rent.
    24. Re:kettle/black by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      I think there's a version of Chromium (the open-source base of Chrome) with ad filtering... some quick web searching can probably find it for you.
      For IE, there's a plug-in called IE7Pro (http://ie7pro.com). Despite the name, it runs fine on IE8 too (although some of the features, such as inline search, are included in IE8 out of the box). Ad blocking and spell checking are probably the main value it has on IE8, although you may like its tab session manager (as opposed to the builtin one), GreaseMonkey-like script capability, mouse gesture support, download manager, or any of the many other things it provides. Honestly, they basically took the best user-experience features of Firefox and Opera and put them into IE.

      Not affiliated in any way, but back before IE8 came out it it made 7 tolerable.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    25. Re:kettle/black by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 1

      Actually, I've not been happy with Internet Explorer since IE5.

      You can think it's flamebait, but I mean what I say.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    26. Re:kettle/black by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And where are these supposed vulnerabilities, anyway? If Microsoft wanted IE to be secure they'd abandon hActive-X and drop j-script in favor of javascript.

      I don't know why anyone but the ignorant would run IE. It (and all of Microsoft's offerings) have always been less secure than just about everyone else's.

    27. Re:kettle/black by bradley13 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also a matter of opinion. IE5 had some nifty features, but was pretty far along in the second phase of Microsoft's standard "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" strategy: it broke with established web standards in a major way. Because it was delivered with Windows, companies used it. They therefore built Intranet sites that didn't work with Netscape. The next step was extinguish, which worked pretty well until Firefox came along. So, yes, IE5 was nifty. And anyone who cared about the future of the Internet at the time rightly detested it.

      --
      Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    28. Re:kettle/black by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 1

      Fish. It really doesn't mean anything.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    29. Re:kettle/black by Spazztastic · · Score: 4, Funny

      Even if that person is Bree Olson?

      Gah, knew I shouldn't have googled her at work.

      --
      Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
    30. Re:kettle/black by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Why do you think they're wrong? In a comment above you, someone pointed out that now you're vulnerable to any Chrome vulnerabilities as well as any IE vulnerabilities. worse, you're also exposing yourself to any vulnerabilities in the plugin architecture that you might not be vulnerable to if you were just running IE.

      That's not to say that the Chrome plugin is a bad idea--but many times when you add complexity to a system, you reduce security.

    31. Re:kettle/black by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They make a valid point. IE has holes. Chrome has holes. IE with a Chrome plugin can be exploited by both vectors. There should be no debate over the fact that IE+Chrome is less secure than IE without Chrome. That is distracting from the real question, however, which is whether IE without Chrome is less secure than Chrome without IE.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    32. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you believe it doesn't make it true.

    33. Re:kettle/black by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Not really. I know a few people who also switched back to IE8 because of the memory holes in FF and other assorted reasons. I haven't myself but mostly because the extensions I use aren't all available for IE. If IE really got on the whole extension thing I think it would be an entirely different ballgame.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    34. Re:kettle/black by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      That said, I still use Firefox (Somebody PLEASE make AdBlock Plus for Chrome and IE please! )

      If you use Firefox, but also want to use Chrome and IE, you'd perhaps be better off with something like Privoxy, set up all your browsers, and uninstall Adblock. Adblocking proxies excels at multibrowser environments, not just for ease of configuration, but with the "one adblocking configuration for all browsers" advantage too.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    35. Re:kettle/black by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      Maybe we should just start over completely. Make a new standard that doesn't rely on the rigid and inflexible concept of tags and use a scripting language and have a standard API. Leave HTML for TEXT formatting, and return it back to a document formatting language, leaving dynamic content to a totally separate system....

      By now, HTML isn't really used for text formatting anymore, but only a general document structure, with css possible to be dynamically generated through scripting.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    36. Re:kettle/black by oakgrove · · Score: 1

      I have to wonder who at Microsoft even comes up with this stuff. And who do they think is stupid enough to actually swallow it? Taken to its logical extreme, we shouldn't install any software or even own a computer as that will obviously increase your "attack vector". Ridiculous.

      --
      The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
    37. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dimitri Martin called he wants his joke back . . .

      Oh, hang on I have an incoming call from David Spade.

    38. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      seems like to me the problem is not IE or microsoft. It's browsers and the internet in general. There are so many ways to develop for the net, so many different browsers and so called standards, languages (asp.net, php, cfml, java, python, ruby etc...), CSS and the numerous versions and methods of implementing it all that it is a nightmare for developers of web apps and content as well as the browsers developers, like microsoft and mozilla and google to keep up with. Does that give MS a pass for making an insecure browser? Not at all. But specifically referring to this post, does that open the door for further MS bashing when they come out and announce that "hey, Google's software makes our software insecure (or more insecure depending on your attitude towards MS)"? Absolutely not. Heck I applaud them for even coming forward to let us all know. Normally I think announcements like these wouldn't see the light of day. So instead of bashing MS like most of you do without question for whatever reason, why not point the anger where it belongs this time. Google. You made a plugin that degrades the security of the browser that you're plugging it into... Fix that shit and make sure you validate and test it better next time.

    39. Re:kettle/black by noundi · · Score: 1

      Why do you think they're wrong? In a comment above you, someone pointed out that now you're vulnerable to any Chrome vulnerabilities as well as any IE vulnerabilities. worse, you're also exposing yourself to any vulnerabilities in the plugin architecture that you might not be vulnerable to if you were just running IE.

      That's not to say that the Chrome plugin is a bad idea--but many times when you add complexity to a system, you reduce security.

      I didn't say they were. My point is that MS is the worst source of information for this because no matter if they are right or wrong, their best interest is to keep Google away from IE. You want facts? Don't listen to the guy with enough motives to lie.

      --
      I am the lawn!
    40. Re:kettle/black by noundi · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      They make a valid point. IE has holes. Chrome has holes. IE with a Chrome plugin can be exploited by both vectors. There should be no debate over the fact that IE+Chrome is less secure than IE without Chrome. That is distracting from the real question, however, which is whether IE without Chrome is less secure than Chrome without IE.

      That's irrelevant. My point is that taking MS as a valid source of information about this is plain idiocy. Their best interest is to keep Google away from IE, and they will do it no matter if they lie or tell you the truth. So you have no way of telling either. Find an independent 3rd party that is keen to stick to facts, instead of marketing schemes, and you'll have the truth.

      --
      I am the lawn!
    41. Re:kettle/black by poetmatt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course it would. But people have been asking for that since *IE 6* and/or earlier, I kid you not. If they allowed extensions people could do things such as : patch vulnerabilities themselves, allow things such as noscript, enable standards compliance. We're not talking about in modified versions of IE, it should be in the standard IE8 for the average non-techie user.

      you know, all the stuff that we've been asking for to be provided in Internet Explorer for years. I don't suspect that to ever happen, since they intend to stick with ActiveX.

    42. Re:kettle/black by noundi · · Score: 1

      I think their worry is that if it becomes popular and IE gets hacked because of the plugin, IE could get blamed for it... just like Firefox gets blamed(wrongly) for faults in the extensions.

      Exactly! And Google is playing it smart. You know that when this happens Google is going to point back to MS and offer the more secure way, the Google Chrome way*. Google would be playing on peoples stupidity, something that MS has played on since the dawn of Win95. What goes for me as a consumer, I don't really give a shit. Let the companies rip eachother apart and offer me lower prices and better products, instead of this monopoly. Yes I said monopoly, anybody care to play a game of semantics?

      * Future Chrome slogan, not my actual opinion.

      --
      I am the lawn!
    43. Re:kettle/black by Locutus · · Score: 1

      definitely and it surprises me they're willing to go down that path.

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    44. Re:kettle/black by MadCow42 · · Score: 3, Funny

      >>Wrong. People in glass houses shouldn't undress.

      No - people in glass houses should undress... but people shouldn't buy glass houses unless they're hot 21-year-old nurses.

      --
      I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
    45. Re:kettle/black by plague3106 · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I'm running IE8 on vista... security hasn't been an issue for me.

      FF started getting too slow compared to IE, both in load time and render time. The constant updates to addons started getting to be more annoying than anything else, and FF 3.5 is ugly. In the end I went with something that just works.. and as far as standards complaince goes, I haven't seen IE8 rending anything differently than FF 3.5.

    46. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      I don't know, but I think that was the point that GP was trying to make...

      --
      FGD 135
    47. Re:kettle/black by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Aye. Isn't IE pretty much designed to be a component and embedded in everything?

    48. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      lol @ your ignorance. Yes, they do. Check the bug reports.

    49. Re:kettle/black by aztektum · · Score: 2, Funny

      Bah, If I wanted to see that, I'd just undress a Barbie doll.

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    50. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A glass house would have a door to use as an exit without permanent damager you the residence.

      A glass structure large enough to trap a person without a means to exist would not be a glass house, but a glass prison, or a glass trap, or at least something like that from a groovy scifi movie from the sixties.

      So, when you find yourself in a glass house and there are rocks, I would still suggest using the exit over destroying the structure.

    51. Re:kettle/black by the_B0fh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      gee, and it really helps your case when the Microsoft rep on the HTML5 was one of the key people delaying the standard, isn't it?

    52. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm running IE8 on vista... security hasn't been an issue for me.

      Neither has common sense, obviously!

    53. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Troll? Any MS employees "in tha hizzle"?

    54. Re:kettle/black by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

      > Maybe we should just start over completely.

      A Web 2.0, so to speak ?

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    55. Re:kettle/black by hot+soldering+iron · · Score: 1

      "It makes IE less secure"! How could you tell?

      --
      When you want something built, come see me. If you want correct grammar and spelling, get a F*ing liberal arts student.
    56. Re:kettle/black by laurelraven · · Score: 1

      Parent should not be marked troll...simple fact is that no company can truly be trusted to give you the unbiased truth about their own products or those of their competitors. Without a (reliable and unbiased) third party to confirm, MS's assertions are just above worthless here.

      --
      RTFA is Known to the State of California to cause cancer.
    57. Re:kettle/black by noundi · · Score: 1

      Don't sweat it mate. Welcome to Slashdot, haven of fanboys, the corporate lobbyists "volunteers". ;-)

      --
      I am the lawn!
    58. Re:kettle/black by thejynxed · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is an extension for IE that might fit what you are looking for:
      http://adblockie.codeplex.com/

      It also has the benefit of being Open Sauce for you guys who like to tinker with code.

      There will never be an AdBlock or AdBlock+ for IE from the original authors. Those extensions rely on XUL and Javascript to make Firefox do what they want. Extensions for IE have to be programmed in a language like C++ and compiled into binary blob, and can only use pre-defined hooks into the browser.

      --
      @Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
    59. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not AdBlock, but it seems just as good: IE7Pro for IE 7 & 8 will block scripts, ads, evil Flash junk, etc.

      Firefox is really dated and weird to me. Netscape was always a joke, it crashed over and over. As a web dev, I once had Netscrape crash over 20 times a day on me, day after day.

      Chrome is nice, but Google has a conflict of interest in not blocking ads, so it's pretty much only useful for reading Gmail... oh well, nice try Google.

    60. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does adding a surfactant to IE make it less secure? *boggle*

    61. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Dunno about you, but if I thought I was unhappy, I'd be pretty certain it was true.

    62. Re:kettle/black by igaborf · · Score: 4, Funny

      Even if that person is Bree Olson?

      Gah, knew I shouldn't have googled her at work.

      You misspelled "ogled."

    63. Re:kettle/black by mftb · · Score: 1

      Most web developers jump through the hoops microsoft provide. That shouldn't be a surprise.

    64. Re:kettle/black by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      http://www.adambarth.com/papers/2009/reis-barth-pizano.pdf

      IE ain't bad, but what they're going on about here seems a little ridiculous.

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    65. Re:kettle/black by mftb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Server-side language choice isn't at all a browser issue. Also, Mr. AC, other than microsoft's own PR, can you cite any security problems here? Sure, they're introducing a new rendering engine that will undoubtedly have its own security problems, but they don't combine with IE's rendering engine's problem since only one of them is being used at a time.

    66. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you don't remember, but IE 5 was LIGHTYEARS ahead of Netscape. There's a reason EVERYBODY dumped Netscape, and it wasn't just "it came with Windows", because at first, it didn't...

      Perhaps you don't remember, but in 1999 Opera was lightyears ahead of Netscape... and Internet Explorer.

      Netscape had trouble and the browser was rather awful. But Internet Explorer was almost as awful.

      Internet Explorer won because it:
      1. was made in USA (with a huge home market of stupid, gullible people to back it up)
      2. came from a huge American company that everybody heard of
      3. was gratis (Opera became adware in the year 2000, before that you could try it for free for a limited period and then you had to pay).
      4. became included in Windows
      5. was slightly less crappy then Netscape 4 & 5.

      In 1999 there was no question about what browser were lightyears before the competition in every aspect but price.

      Opera was really, really cheap. If you had to pay for your Internet connection by hour, it payed back really fast (both IE and Netscape was slow as hell, even Mosaic was faster on pages it could render). But people was to cheapid to pay for it and didn't like the ads when it became adware.

    67. Re:kettle/black by A+Friendly+Troll · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Great, that happened *ten* years ago. What has happened since? They've been chasing the Fox for past *five* years.

      And Firefox has been chasing Opera for the past five years and still isn't anywhere near it. What's your point?

    68. Re:kettle/black by ae1294 · · Score: 2

      And where are these supposed vulnerabilities, anyway? If Microsoft wanted IE to be secure they'd abandon hActive-X and drop j-script in favor of javascript.
      I don't know why anyone but the ignorant would run IE. It (and all of Microsoft's offerings) have always been less secure than just about everyone else's.

      I see no trolling here... Slashdot is going to die if the corporation that owns it doesn't start dealing with the horrible mod problem.

      Active-X is and always has been a huge problem and Microsoft products in general have shown themselves to be less secure. Why that might be is open to debate but anyone who ever works on a "normal" persons computer should have noticed that people who us IE always have mind blowing amounts of spyware and those that have been forced to use some other browser (by me) never have the same level of infection if anything at all.

      I'd also like to take a moment to yell at Adobe for it's FLASH and PDF exploits...

    69. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      leaving dynamic content to a totally separate system....

      Like Flash?

    70. Re:kettle/black by ae1294 · · Score: 1

      That's not to say that the Chrome plugin is a bad idea--but many times when you add complexity to a system, you reduce security.

      Well it's not really any different than installing shockwave, flash, or java for IE now is it? Maybe Microsoft should ban these as to make IE more secure and less useful...

    71. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So chrome is the soap to IE's water?

    72. Re:kettle/black by Hyppy · · Score: 1

      Making IE less secure is like making water more wet.

      Certain water can be made more wet, technically.
      One definition: wet (adj.) - Characterized by the use or presence of water or liquid reagents.
      So if, for example, you were to desalinate sea water, you would be making it more wet, in terms of density, because less non-liquid reagents would be present. IE, on the other hand, cannot be less secure.

    73. Re:kettle/black by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      6 was not fine. It was a piece of shit. Totally insecure, awful to develop sites for. I don't really see how that can be fine.

    74. Re:kettle/black by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Maybe so.

    75. Re:kettle/black by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      I was speaking as a web developer, developing for both FF and IE8. I had to jump through hoops to get IE6 or sometimes even 7 to work, but everything standards complaint I did for FF worked in IE8 the same way.

    76. Re:kettle/black by CODiNE · · Score: 1

      Inside Glass house + throwing stones = Death of 1,000 cuts.

      That actually DOES sound like Microsoft these days.

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
    77. Re:kettle/black by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Sometimes Microsoft employees (and idiot fan boys) get mod points, apparently there were two today. No big deal, hardly a day goes by that I don't get at least one +5 (probably why I have over 200 fans and only 17 freaks). My karma is excellent, so some dufus wasted his points modding me down so he couldn't use them against someone it might have mattered to, and as someone else later said close to the same thing it got said anyway. So no harm was done.

      I wish they'd bring back the old metamoderation system. But usually afaict most bad mods get corrected.

      Someone please mod the parent up? kthx

    78. Re:kettle/black by Sparr0 · · Score: 1

      I ditched Netscape around the time of v5... and moved to Opera, which was itself far ahead of IE or NS at the time, and continued to be so for years.

    79. Re:kettle/black by jhfry · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually... no.

      1 - IE's renderer has holes.
      2 - Chrome's renderer has (I believe) fewer holes (because it is not as tied to the OS).
      3 - Only 1 renderer will be used to render a malicious page.
      If 2 and 3 are true, then it follows that when Chrome's renderer is used, the browser is actually more secure.

      Of course this is highly dependent upon the level of communication between the browser and the renderer. I suspect that it is very minimal ( button clicks, bookmarks, etc.) as tight integration would be unnecessary, costly, and more difficult to maintain.

      I think I will take the stance that using the chrome renderer on the IE browser will make a more secure online experience... and I will tell people such until someone can convince me that I am wrong. Microsoft's argument is like saying that Windows and McAfee AntiVirus make a system less secure than Windows by itself because McAffee increases the attack area, which it technically does.

      --
      Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
    80. Re:kettle/black by Thantik · · Score: 1

      I *really* hate to be posting this, because I agree with you 100%...but...
      http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=10

    81. Re:kettle/black by fox171171 · · Score: 1

      I was a long time Netscape user. Always thought IE sucked, but eventually Netscape sucked even more. That's the only reason I used IE. Jumped to Firefox pretty quick when it entered the scene. I hope FF doesn't go down the tubes (ribbon menu bar??) like N did.

    82. Re:kettle/black by HannethCom · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I was not using Mac IE 5.5, so I don't recall IE 5 being light years ahead of Netscape. I remember the 5.x series on Windows which was a useless pile of junk.

      Depending on when you downloaded IE 5 you would get a different build number and you could not upgrade to the newest build number.
      This caused all sorts of problems because one version the onload was broken. Another the mouseover was broken.

      Sure it had more CSS support(TM), unfortunately it was inconsistent which made CSS virtually unusable. I also liked how it could not pass the HTML1 spec test, really not a hard test to pass, I believe IE8 is the first version to pass this test.

      So the only thing I can think of is that you are talking about the Mac version, which I hear was quite good, or that it was LIGHTYEARS ahead of Netscape down the hole since that's where Netscape headed.

      --
      Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon what's the difference? All steal money from devs and control with walled gardens.
    83. Re:kettle/black by lamaleader · · Score: 1

      Don't we use quotation marks to denote quotations any more? Perhaps they've been reserved for "emphasis". But to be fair, your not-as-funny paraphrasing of Demitri Martin doesn't require quotes.

    84. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh, I think everyone had their turning point at some time. IE3.02 was my favourite browser for a long long time - I refused to upgrade to IE4, and that's when I started looking for alternate browsers. Mozilla was just splitting away from Netscape, and while I tried some of their early builds, I found them way too slow as well. Finally found Opera, loved it, and have stuck with it.

    85. Re:kettle/black by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'm about this close to ditching Firefox. Performance and stability issues are going unaddressed while they work on crap like Office-style ribbon UIs?

      IE7 was a pile of crap but IE8 isn't that bad, frankly. If the Mozilla people don't get their shit together, and soon, their market share is likely to shift back towards IE just as surely as Netscape's did.

      (And no, I wouldn't feel this strongly about it if I didn't really like Firefox and want to see it succeed.)

    86. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yo Demetri!

    87. Re:kettle/black by Leolo · · Score: 1

      However, IE+Chrome is not using all of IE. So the holes in IE that are being superceeded by Chrome are no longer an issue.

    88. Re:kettle/black by arevos · · Score: 1

      FF started getting too slow compared to IE, both in load time and render time.

      Aside from a few edge cases, FF is generally faster than IE8, especially for sites that make heavy use of Javascript.

    89. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Somebody PLEASE make AdBlock Plus for Chrome and IE please! )

      No. IE is for the people that fund the internet (click on ads, download viruses, get their identity stolen, etc.). I thank them for the services that they do to the economy. Without them, we'd have to do it ourselves.

    90. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Always nice to hear from our corporate drones. Thanks.

    91. Re:kettle/black by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      You may be technically correct, but it certainly felt slower.

    92. Re:kettle/black by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      I looked her up on Wikipedia instead... I figured it was unlikely to find anything too terribly NSFW there.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    93. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I follow what you are saying, but I don't think that it is true. It all depends on how the choice of renderer is made. Does the user decide which renderer to use for a particular page (or for the entire browsing experience) or does the page itself decide in some way?

      If the page decides (or the decision is made automatically based on content in the page) then it does indeed present an increased attack vector. I would argue that this is slight compared to attacks directly on IE itself or via other plugins (Java, Flash, Adobe PDF etc), but still existant.

      There could also be security holes directly with how the plugin is implemented and not just the renderer itself. The Chrome renderer is used with the Chrome browser where every tab is a separate process, and the structure in IE is likely at least somewhat different. The renderer / plugin therefore might not take adequate precautions against cross tab / window exploits. This is purely speculation on my part, however.

      I personally use Chrome as my main browser because I prefer its UI to FF (auto hide status bar for one), but I do prefer FF in terms of privacy with the option to always clear everything on shutdown (I really wish Chrome had this since I just don't have the need to keep cookies between browsing sessions since they offer me nothing except potential security holes and overly thorough tracking).

    94. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I nearly did the same. I've used to navigate with Opera 9 and started to use IE8 but when Opera 10 came out I gave Opera a second chance
      .

    95. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Superfluid IE

    96. Re:kettle/black by Ironica · · Score: 1

      IE, on the other hand, cannot be less secure.

      Of course it can! It could, for example, immediately upon launch, enroll you in a roster of botnets, search your drive for 9- and 16- digit numbers to send to an email address in the Czech Republic, and post all pictures it finds on all connected drives to Flickr.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    97. Re:kettle/black by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity, have you actually *tried* IE8?

      Or are you just posting the same ignorant bullshit we see on every Slashdot thread?

    98. Re:kettle/black by ajs · · Score: 1

      They make a valid point.

      Not really, because they attempt to make a comparison between unlike elements. IE+Chrome is less secure than IE, but the astute reader will note that IE-Javascript is not secure. In fact IE's vulnerabilities are mostly associated with its deep permissiveness with respect to OS integration. So no, adding Chrome Javascript interpretation to IE doesn't double the attack space. In fact, I'd argue that it increases the attack space so trivially that it should not be a primary consideration. Assuming that Chrome updates are relatively reliable (which we won't know until it's stable and out of beta), there's simply no measurable impact on IE security from Chrome.

    99. Re:kettle/black by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 3, Funny

      IE already has extensions, it has for AGES. At least since IE 5.5.

      How do you think Google Toolbar runs in IE? Magic? Powdered unicorn horn? Hell, THIS VERY SLASHDOT STORY is about an IE extension.

      What the hell drug did Mozilla give everybody to make them think IE doesn't have extensions? I feel like I'm the last human left and everybody else has been replaced by body-snatchers!!

    100. Re:kettle/black by mqduck · · Score: 1

      You not only stole someone's joke without credit, but you even changed it to make it seem more like you thought of it yourself. ("As a kid, I was always taught...") :-P

      --
      Property is theft.
    101. Re:kettle/black by mrArg · · Score: 1

      I'm not an expert by any means, but wouldn't pages rendered by Google Chrome Frame not be rendered by IE:s engine, thus taking away this attack area. Granted, IE:s network stack is still used to actually fetch the content, but since it never reaches IE:s renderer no code is ever interpreted by it...

      Just a thought.

    102. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the Chrome plugin might make things safer.

      Theoretically exploits in Chrome might be a subset of those of IE, therefore the addition does not make things necessarily less secure.

      Moreover by short circuiting IE code path and using safer Chrome code paths, the plugin might make IE more robust.

    103. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's just shills that like to ignore things that actually happened in favor of a fluffier, more happy history where Microsoft spent its entire history giving money to war orphans with no strings attached.

      The reality is that Microsoft's been convicted of being a monopoly at least twice, which means in all the ways that matter, it IS a monopoly. It doesn't matter what "competition" there is that the shills like to dream up, none of it is viable... yet. When Windows drops below 70% market share, then I'll believe they're not a monopoly. Not when they're still at a level roughly 89%.

      Windows, Office, and IE came out because Microsoft is a bully, hands down, no questions asked, proven in several courts of law, settlements notwithstanding. Shills desperately want us to think that Windows was so uber-fucking-fantastically AWESOME that it was natural that Microsoft got a monopoly. They ignore all the proof of EEE, steamrolling, and, yes, racketeering Microsoft has used to make sure they're not just number one in this game, but the only one playing the game.

    104. Re:kettle/black by HitoGuy · · Score: 1

      People swallow it. They're swallowing CodePlex and the Community Promise!

      --
      I am beginning to think that maybe Darl McBride was attacked viciously by a penguin as a child.
    105. Re:kettle/black by easyTree · · Score: 1

      In other news, kitchen roll makes spilled water more wet.

    106. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stones/glasshouses

      Not at all -- from the title, "Microsoft Says Google Chrome Frame Makes IE Less Secure", it's clear that MS is going after Google for patent violation.

    107. Re:kettle/black by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 1

      Yep, sure have.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    108. Re:kettle/black by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

      Well, IE6 and IE8 are different. You might want to read up about what security mechanisms MS put in place between the OS and the browser -- they are mighty proud about them.
      E.g. LCIE, running each tab in a different process and also Vista should have heap and stack overflow preventing mechanisms. I think that is what they are talking about here: Chrome is probably not compiled with address randomization, noexec or similar.
      So there is probably a point behind the statement, although the statement is used for FUD.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    109. Re:kettle/black by Torinir · · Score: 1

      Inside Glass house + throwing stones = Death of 1,000 cuts.

      That actually DOES sound like Microsoft these days.

      That's because they're living in their own private glass house out in Redmond, WA.

      And the stones are being thrown by the consumers that MS pisses off with each new release, patch, etc.

      As far as their products go, while their most recent releases haven't been as terrible as what I, personally, have come to expect from them, they still lag behind the pack in terms of keeping their products secure and up-to-date. Perhaps I'm being pessimistic, but I don't see them ever being truly innovative, and therefore will always fall behind as they try to copy the good parts of competing products, rather than make their own advances.

      Just my 2 cents.

    110. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're one of the rarest groups of all the fish in the pond, so to speak, per-se.

      Checkmate.

    111. Re:kettle/black by Kagetsuki · · Score: 0, Troll

      Flash is just generally terrible. Macromedia decided to make a development system for people who at most perhaps understood some Javascript, so their model is based on weird concepts like frames and putting scripts in objects (objects as in images). Writing a complex application in flash would be an exercise in futility, especially compared Java. As terrible as Java is, a skilled developer can write a significantly better, cleaner, and more technically capable (hardware acceleration etc) in it in less time and have a smaller package. Still, I don't think Java is the answer, but at least it's "better" than flash.

    112. Re:kettle/black by chrb · · Score: 1

      If 2 and 3 are true, then it follows that when Chrome's renderer is used, the browser is actually more secure.

      You would be right if the web site serving the potential exploit couldn't select the renderer, but that is not the case here - the attacker can turn on or off the meta tag in the HTTP Response that selects Windows or Chrome rendering in IE. So the attacker has the choice of two rather than one rendering engine.

    113. Re:kettle/black by gig · · Score: 3, Interesting

      IE8 is terrible. It is 2x slower than every other browser and it has no HTML5 features. It's only good when compared to IE6 from 2001. Also, IE8 is over 25 megabytes and runs only on Wintel. For comparison, WebKit is 5 megabytes and runs on Windows, Mac, Linux and on x32, x64, PowerPC, and ARM.

      There is just no excuse for the low quality of Internet Explorer. Microsoft has been at this longer than any other browser maker. Safari is from early 2003, Firefox from late 2004, Chrome from 2008, but IE is from 1995. That is a dramatic head start and yet IE8 is way, way behind the other browsers.

    114. Re:kettle/black by jeanph01 · · Score: 1

      Use adsweep in chrome... no ads:

      http://adsweep.org/

    115. Re:kettle/black by Meski · · Score: 1

      So Microsoft is now saying ActiveX controls are not safe?

    116. Re:kettle/black by mftb · · Score: 1

      I had horrible problems trying to get inherit to work in IE before I googled it and found out that it was impossible. This and http://blogs.msdn.com/cwilso/archive/2006/08/10/694584.aspx have left me in rather an unbalanced position when it comes to IE.

    117. Re:kettle/black by akayani · · Score: 1

      "IE 5 was great"

      Only because anything was great when you came from nothing. That's like saying Windows 286 was great, it didn't use much menory. (Hell packaged into a box for geeks.)

    118. Re:kettle/black by Kagetsuki · · Score: 1

      I was only pointing out it was great for its day. And it genuinely was, it had a nice smooth interface and many rich features, it was fast, and if I'm not mistaken they chose to not support the blink tag which is an awesome design decision. In case you are interested, even the creator of the blink tag regrets creating it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_element check out his quote: "the worst thing I've ever done for the Internet".

      Just in case you were wondering, I use Internet Explorer perhaps once ever two weeks, and even then it's usually only to check some sort of compatibility issue. In its modern form IE is a horrible piece of trash which generally makes life terrible when I have to write something to run on the Internet. I guess I'm lucky I do actual software development, and I can literally bit-bang registers and perform complex memory operations as raw as I please, but still use high level libraries like OpenGL in all in the same application. I have full control of and the capability to make what I want to, without following some obscure set of rules decided on by some bickering international committee of people who wear turtlenecks in the summer, think an 8USD paper cup of shaved ice with burnt coffee grounds, artificial vanilla and high fructose corn syrup (I'm glad I live in a country they don't use that garbage) is "good coffee", and know the unique names and hexadecimal color codes to over 30 varieties of purple. Fuck you W3C, fuck you all.

    119. Re:kettle/black by Hyppy · · Score: 1

      Of course it can! It could, for example, immediately upon launch, enroll you in a roster of botnets, search your drive for 9- and 16- digit numbers to send to an email address in the Czech Republic, and post all pictures it finds on all connected drives to Flickr.

      Every IE installation I've seen already does that.

    120. Re:kettle/black by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      toolbars/searchbars are not extensions. they're malware laden spyware machines that are not as easily removed at all.

    121. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IE8 is terrible. It is 2x slower than every other browser

      What good does that do when ill-behaved but almost-mandatory extensions like the Acrobat Reader plugin can bring the whole browser to a screeching halt?

      and it has no HTML5 features.

      Which sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

    122. Re:kettle/black by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      And in this case, Google replaced the entire rendering engine and Javascript engine of the browser. Lemme guess, by your hypocritical definition, that's not an "extension" either, right?

      And the "Add/Remove Add-Ons" dialog is accessible from the top-level of the Tools menu, how much easier could they make it?

      Look, by any reasonable definition of the term (i.e. not yours), IE supports extensions, and has for over a decade.

      And when I see a dozen comments on Slashdot saying that IE doesn't have extensions, in an article about an IE extension, it really does make me feel like I've avoided a bodysnatch. I mean the FUD flies fast around here, but that's just ridiculous.

    123. Re:kettle/black by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Good point... although, HTML and CSS do sort of go hand-in-hand. HTML defines the structure, and CSS defines the style.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    124. Re:kettle/black by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Speaking of text formatting, breaking that into a few more paragraphs would have made it much easier to read... :p

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    125. Re:kettle/black by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Plugins are not extensions. Toolbars are not extensions either.

      A Firefox extension can interact with the page in ways that an IE plugin designer could never dream of doing.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    126. Re:kettle/black by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      What good does that do when ill-behaved but almost-mandatory extensions like the Acrobat Reader plugin can bring the whole browser to a screeching halt?

      Maybe I'm weird, but I disabled the Reader plugin. If I click a link to a PDF, it downloads and saves it to disk.

      I eagerly await the time when Firefox has separate processes for the tabs, though. Not that it's much of a problem currently as far as I'm concerned, but that'll definitely sweeten the deal.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    127. Re:kettle/black by A+Friendly+Troll · · Score: 1

      From +4 insightful to 0 offtopic. Apologies to Firefox fanboys, I know that truth hurts.

    128. Re:kettle/black by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the page gets to choose which engine should render it.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    129. Re:kettle/black by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      I did too, and I'd just like to add - not impressed.

      Maybe I'm an old fart, but she looks like a little jailbait ho with too much makeup on to me.

      Get off my lawn, and all that.

    130. Re:kettle/black by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      It could, but Apple and Google have already filed patents for these types of behavior...

    131. Re:kettle/black by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

      Or, for the more graphically inclined... see that pink slice? That's Opera.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    132. Re:kettle/black by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      she looks like a little jailbait ho with too much makeup on to me

      Agreed, minus the jailbait part... she was born in '86. Maybe you're just older than I am.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    133. Re:kettle/black by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      What do you mean inhert doesn't work? Seriously.. I don't usually specify that for a value to anything, and cascading seems to work... so I'm not sure what specific thing you're seeing.

      As for the blog post... that's three years old, and IE8 has been out for some time. I know IE7 isn't perfect, but 8 is good enough for me to leave behind FF, and I can still code to IE7 thanks to being able to swtich renderers on the fly.

    134. Re:kettle/black by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      Lets just say I have changed the diapers of someone born in 85...

    135. Re:kettle/black by jesset77 · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity, have you actually *tried* IE8?

      Or are you just posting the same ignorant bullshit we see on every Slashdot thread?

      1> yes, 2> no, 3> now you answer your own question mebe kthx? :/

      --
      People willing to trade their freedom of expression for temporary entertainment deserve neither and will lose both.
    136. Re:kettle/black by A+Friendly+Troll · · Score: 1

      Yes. On that site. Now go to Russia and neighbouring countries and you'll see Opera with above 40% browser marketshare, IE second, Firefox third. There were no fanboys there to create crop circles and donate money to buy newspaper ads.

    137. Re:kettle/black by mftb · · Score: 1

      The only time I have tried to use inherit, it failed - "a {color:inherit}" would not work in IE - all links would be blue, regardless of the parent's colour. See http://www.musicfortheblind.co.uk/red.css

    138. Re:kettle/black by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Kinky... oh wait.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    139. Re:kettle/black by DaVince21 · · Score: 1
      --
      I am not devoid of humor.
    140. Re:kettle/black by DaVince21 · · Score: 1

      Isn't that similar to jailbreaking? Except with stones rather than files?

      --
      I am not devoid of humor.
    141. Re:kettle/black by Simetrical · · Score: 1

      gee, and it really helps your case when the Microsoft rep on the HTML5 was one of the key people delaying the standard, isn't it?

      Adrian Bateman gave a number of sound, reasonable objections to various aspects of the spec. Several echoed complaints that other commenters had made in the past. Some got immediate agreement from other vendors like Mozilla, resulting in speedy changes to the spec (like the removal of <bb>). There's ongoing discussion about other features, like <keygen>, which have resulted in productive changes.

      It's fair to say that Microsoft is still only involved in the HTML5 community at arm's length. Adrian is the only MS rep to have commented so far, AFAIK, and his comments came years later than they might have. But MS is contributing constructively and is looking to implement HTML5. Quoting Mozilla developer Robert O'Callahan on his blog, referring to a talk by IE8 Technical Evangelist Giorgio Sardo,

      His basic message was "we care about standards (including HTML5), we're doing it, our release cycles are slow because we have the most users but we will get there." What I thought was very interesting was that he made no attempt to distance themselves from HTML5 or even say that they'd be selective about which HTML5 features made sense to implement. His message tacitly assumed that HTML5 is simply something they will do.

      Nothing that MS has done will slow down the standardization process. Major features like <video> are already set in stone in most respects, since they have multiple interoperable implementations. If MS has come late to the party, it just means they get less say. HTML5 is still set for Last Call in October last I heard. Its progress to further levels of the W3C echelon will be slowed based on the number of formal objections made by various parties; there's no indication yet that Microsoft will slow it down particularly much. As far as I know, Microsoft has not yet filed any formal objections.

      The W3C standardization process is hardly relevant, though. Nobody cares what the W3C says. <video> works in the latest versions of all browsers except IE, for instance. It doesn't need to be part of a "finished" specification to be used in practice.

      --
      MediaWiki developer, Total War Center sysadmin
    142. Re:kettle/black by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Citation Needed.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    143. Re:kettle/black by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Hmm... well, it seems to be fixed in IE8, which fortunately seems to be replacing older IE versions.

    144. Re:kettle/black by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he misspelled "googlle".

    145. Re:kettle/black by Chabil+Ha' · · Score: 1

      I think the damage has already been done, though. Since the major security fiascos with IE6, I will *never* trust IE again. Something that is bolted into the operating system, running who-knows-what from every website you visit is just plain insanity.

      Nope. Never again.

      --
      We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
    146. Re:kettle/black by akayani · · Score: 1

      "Fuck you W3C, fuck you all."

      "Fuck you very much and take these flying chairs!"

      MS really should have included a 'flying chair' screen saver with Win7. I guess that is an opportunity for Google too like fixing IE for Microsloth.

  2. Friends? by Jeoh · · Score: 5, Funny

    Friends don't let friends use Internet Explorer anyway.

    1. Re:Friends? by Mikkeles · · Score: 5, Funny

      'This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take.'

      They have friends, much less family?

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    2. Re:Friends? by Fwipp · · Score: 0

      'This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take.'

      They have friends, much less family?

      would
      Don't worry, they're just speaking hypothetically.

    3. Re:Friends? by Enderandrew · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I read a fantastic interview with one of the lead IE developers as they were prepping the launch of IE 7. He said his daughter came home from school one day and asked him if he was responsible for breaking the web.

      In the interview, he seemed to imply the current IE team feels guilty and responsible for previous versions being so poor in standards compliance, and that the new developers were pushing to make IE more complaint in the future.

      Technically, they have succeeded. IE 7 and 8 are more complaint. They still however are not very compliant on the whole.

      So yes, they have families. And even their beloved daughters call them out for IE's problems.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    4. Re:Friends? by CxDoo · · Score: 1

      Yeah but sometimes you just gotta roll with it.
      That being said, does anyone know how to sort out annoyingly short alt-text popup time in IE 7. God forbid xkcd alt-text is a more than a one liner.

      --
      "Blah blah blah." - [citation needed]
    5. Re:Friends? by pacinpm · · Score: 5, Funny

      I find the lack of mention of children and terrorists disturbing.

    6. Re:Friends? by benwiggy · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...the new developers were pushing to make IE more complaint in the future.

      Technically, they have succeeded. IE 7 and 8 are more complaint.

      Feel the delicious irony from an incorrect vowel transposition!

    7. Re:Friends? by vtcodger · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are standards for HTML? Who knew?

      FWIW, as of this morning, the W3C Validator [http://validator.w3.org] reports

      www.google.com ------------ 39 Errors, 2 warning(s)
      www.microsoft.com -------- 300 Errors, 31 warning(s)
      www.apple.com -------------- 6 Errors, 1 warning(s)
      www.bing.com -------------- 12 Errors
      http://validator.w3.org/ ------ Sorry! This document can not be checked
      www.slashdot.org ---------- 64 Errors, 2 warning(s)

      And don't those web page designers who are "dancing for joy" deserve a bit of credit for this shambles? I'd like to believe that they won't immediately start using features that work in chrome, but not IE because "all the user has to do is download a plugin." But if past experience is any guide, that is exactly what many of them will do.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    8. Re:Friends? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      perhaps. but i am neither friend nor family, so their advice does not apply to me /me goes to install

    9. Re:Friends? by Bertie · · Score: 1, Troll

      Classic Microsoft tactic. Every single release of everything they ever do is prefaced with a couple of months of how the last release was shit and they're really sorry for letting everyone down, but hey, this time they're going to get it right, promise.

      The incredible thing is that, like a battered housewife, people keep taking them back.

    10. Re:Friends? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All this proves is that the daughter had a Linux fanboy for a teacher.

    11. Re:Friends? by Radhruin · · Score: 1

      People tend to forget that the SDEs working in the trenches on IE are very much like us. For the most part, they care about the web, they care about technology, and they care about standards, because they want their tech to be the best.

      I have no doubt that the IE dev team as a whole feels like shit over standards compliance, at least somewhat. It's mostly a management concern -- if the resources were allocated in such a way to achieve Firefox level standards compliance, it'd get done and probably done very well. That's my theory, anyway.

    12. Re:Friends? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do they snort cocaine and throw chairs like Steve Ballmer, too? Well, until they do, they're wasting their time. By the way, please link to that interview, I'd be very interested in seeing proof of your claims, assuming you didn't just haul them out of your ass in order to make a point.

      You wouldn't do that now, would you?

    13. Re:Friends? by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 1

      Friends don't let friends use Windows period.

    14. Re:Friends? by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      > This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take.'

      They have friends, much less family?

      Hitler liked dogs. :)

    15. Re:Friends? by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      Technically, they have succeeded. IE 7 and 8 are more complaint.

      No. They are more compliant. IE users and web developers are more complaint. :)

    16. Re:Friends? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take.'

      Yeah, but they keep on using Windows anyway. No matter how many times we tell them not to.

    17. Re:Friends? by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/web_services_browser/daddy_did_you_break_the_web.html

      Dean Hachamovitch here retells the tale, though I first read it in an article 3 years ago about the IE 7 launch.

      You wouldn't happen to log in and post under you real name, would you?

      No, you're an AC troll.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    18. Re:Friends? by ajs · · Score: 2, Informative

      For www.google.com the validator says:

      Using experimental feature: HTML5 Conformance Checker.

      I think it's kind of unfair to cite statistics without being clear about the limitations of the tools used.

    19. Re:Friends? by ErkDemon · · Score: 1

      'This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take.'

      Hm. Did they recommend that their friends and families rush out and get Vista, when it first came out?

      If so, their friends and families have probably already stopped listening to them. They're probably saying, pah, Microsoft people, what do THEY know about computers ...

    20. Re:Friends? by novakreo · · Score: 1

      http://validator.w3.org/ ------ Sorry! This document can not be checked

      You can validate the validator if you use its IP address instead of the normal URL.

      --
      O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
    21. Re:Friends? by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Is there such thing as a correct vowel transposition?

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    22. Re:Friends? by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      I think you misspelled Opera.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    23. Re:Friends? by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Steve Ballmer isn't a chair! You take that back.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    24. Re:Friends? by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Windows period

      Patch Tuesday?

      (Ewww. Unwanted mental image...)

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    25. Re:Friends? by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      FWIW, as of this morning, the W3C Validator [http://validator.w3.org] reports

      www.google.com ------------ 39 Errors, 2 warning(s)

      Ahh, the irony:

      Line 6, Column 1274: &amp; did not start a character reference. (&amp; probably should have been escaped as &amp;amp;.)

      ...yes, that's right, they meant to say:

      & did not start a character reference. (& probably should have been escaped as &amp;.)

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  3. Well yes by Canazza · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ofcourse it makes it less secure, it lets you run Javascript faster, so that all those drive-by malware installers can execute faster!

    --
    It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
    1. Re:Well yes by rjune · · Score: 1

      I still don't understand how IE could be made less secure. Surely, IE offers more options than just Javascript to install malware.

    2. Re:Well yes by Computershack · · Score: 1, Troll

      I still don't understand how IE could be made less secure. Surely, IE offers more options than just Javascript to install malware.

      Because on Vista, IE8 runs sandboxed.

      --
      I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
    3. Re:Well yes by Captain+Hook · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I thought plug-ins/add-ons ran as part of the host browsers CPU process, and thus if IE is sandboxed wouldn't Chrome also be sandboxed?

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    4. Re:Well yes by jDeepbeep · · Score: 1

      Because on Vista, IE8 runs sandboxed.

      Well, it ought to, since IE8 itself is considered a security patch. :p

      --
      Reply to That ||
    5. Re:Well yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      For IE that's true - plugins run in the sandbox.

      For Chrome (the full browser) it's not - in Chrome, plugins run out of the sandbox (their sandbox is only for the renderer).

      I believe the issue here is that the Google Chrome plugin bypasses IE's anti-malware filter (SmartScreen) and the IE phishing filter, both of which have been shown to be better than Google's equivalent (there are numerous reports that show this, the most recent from NSS).

      That's why MSFT is complaining about the chrome plugin decreasing the security of IE users.

    6. Re:Well yes by stocke2 · · Score: 1, Troll

      not this stupid argument again
      you are comparing apples and oranges, known bugs in an open codebase, which gets patched relatively quickly.
      and known bugs in a closed codebase which gets patched not so quickly. I am sure if we could see the code we could find some more bugs, but alas... we shall never know.

      and since we can not know you can not really compare the numbers in a meaningful way.

      also, when they do those bug counts on linux they tend to add in bugs from other packages, so are the adding in bugs on popular plugins or anything as well? unfortunately those numbers are hard to trust, because the people who gather them have shown themselves to be untrustworthy in the past.

      that said IE8 is better than earlier versions, I still don't like it and not because its microsoft, but because the interface stinks and it has had some rendering issues with sites I use, I prefer safari on osx and ff when I have to use windows.

      If you like IE, more power to you, I would love to see windows users switch from ie6 to ie8, makes my life easier.

      --
      A Smith & Wesson beats four aces -- Murphy's Law of Poker
    7. Re:Well yes by cbhacking · · Score: 2, Informative

      Depends on implementation (for some time, Flash installed an exemption for itself that let it use a broker process to get out of Protected Mode without letting the user know) but by default, yes, IE plugins have the same sandboxing as the browser itself.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    8. Re:Well yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And when you start digging in to those numbers, you find that they are not the same. IE's vulnerabilities tend to be more severe, more often unpatched, and (to a minor extent) leaving you in a worse position for being unpatched. And since we're being thorough - how about we throw in IE6 as well?

      Yeah - MS has done way better over the years. They're pretty close to FF. About time.

    9. Re:Well yes by jadin · · Score: 1

      Given the security issues with plugins in general and Google Chrome in particular, Google Chrome Frame running as a plugin has doubled the attack area for malware and malicious scripts.

      "Doubled the attack area"? I think Microsoft just admitted there's no known security risk they can find with the Chrome Frame, just that it's...
      "A browser in a browser" and
      "browsers are insecure" therefore
      "Chrome as an addon _HAS_ to be unsafe" logically.

      I hate bad logic. The irony of course would be if it made IE more secure than it is by default.

    10. Re:Well yes by IntlHarvester · · Score: 1

      I still don't understand how IE could be made less secure.

      No matter what browser, "Install a plugin to view this website" is a very bad user practice to encourage. Users will never know the difference between "Google Chrome Frame" and "Super Malware Frame".

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
    11. Re:Well yes by stocke2 · · Score: 1

      i don't know where you get off calling this pst a troll, the moderation system is not there to mark people as trolls because they may disagree with you.

      --
      A Smith & Wesson beats four aces -- Murphy's Law of Poker
  4. Well they would say that wouldn't they by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Informative

    What do you expect; "This is great now our customers can access standards-compliant sites and have a faster, smoother web experience"?

    1. Re:Well they would say that wouldn't they by jgardia · · Score: 5, Funny

      I was expecting "Microsoft Says Google Chrome Frame Makes IE even Less Secure"

    2. Re:Well they would say that wouldn't they by MadKeithV · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Microsoft pretends IE could possibly be made less secure by changing anything about it."

    3. Re:Well they would say that wouldn't they by c-reus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Microsoft releases new critical IE patch that accidentally disables the Chrome Frame"

    4. Re:Well they would say that wouldn't they by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Microsoft Says Google Chrome Frame is Actually Pretty Cool".

      "Microsoft Gives Up, Changes Default Browser to Google Chrome Frame Running In IE 8, Disbands IE Dev Team Permanently".

  5. Security issues with Google Chrome? by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dear Microsoft:

    Citation please. Evidence. Facts. Or retract.

    'k thanks,

    Google

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    1. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      given googles horrible history with security and the fact MS's statement really just says it increases the attack surface, (pretty much a fact with any plugin). What exactly do you want evidence of?

    2. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by selven · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Google has a horrible history with security?

    3. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering that it didn't increase it any more than any other plugin and the attack-surface because of Active-X is actually LARGER than with Mozilla or Chrome...

      It's a bogus remark they made there. But then the crowd here has come to expect bogosity from Microsoft. If they were to meet up with the Devil, they'd have little trouble talking with the gent.

    4. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by ShadowRangerRIT · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well, technically, they may be right. It does lead to more attack surface, and many plugins have permissions the browser doesn't allow itself. And Microsoft product security has increased, to the point where I'm fairly confident that the security risks of their Javascript interpreter are comparable with other major browsers. And unless Google *forces* updates to the plugin, security patches will never be applied; few people run Windows Update, but even fewer update non-MS products.

      Of course, those arguments mostly argue for rejecting the *plugin*. *Replacing* IE8 with Chrome (or your browser of choice) means you have only one program's attack surface to worry about again. I'm guessing this is the unspoken part of MS's argument.

      --
      $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
    5. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by ByOhTek · · Score: 3, Informative

      Every 6 months to a year it seems there is yet another goof up that lets users access other users email (gmail) or data (google docs).

      While this is still better than the track record on many MS products, it still leads me to suspect the security of Google. Face it, they are good at distributing information, not hiding it... Now, unless *EVERY* Google security hole is already in IE, new holes will be added.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    6. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Svartalf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Humor: (Noun)

      1. a comic, absurd, or incongruous quality causing amusement: the humor of a situation.

      2. the faculty of perceiving what is amusing or comical: He is completely without humor. (Something you seem to lack yourself...)

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    7. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      It's called "sarcasm"...

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    8. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      But it is about "our friends and families"! How could you be so desinvolt in a matter involving our FRIENDS and FAMILIES !

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    9. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Ash-Fox · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Ok asshat, you do not speak for google.

      Whoooooooosh!

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    10. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
    11. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by horatio · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wait, isn't it Microsoft that silently installs a plugin into Firefox during a Windows update session, and disables the "uninstall" functionality? Guy has some nerve to stand around and wag his finger at Google.

      --
      There is very little future in being right when your boss is wrong.
    12. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Inciteful as the statement is, it's true... There's no way it can be false. A browser containing IE's engine *and* WebKit has all the security holes from both, and all the security holes gained in pushing one into the other.

      So yes, microsoft is right, but rather missing the point... If you're using a chrome frame, you're probably not using IE frames, which means that you're as secure as WebKit's security flaws.

      Why you'd do that rather than just using chrome I have no idea though.

    13. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Chaos+Incarnate · · Score: 1

      They don't disable the uninstall; that's Mozilla's doing, not letting plugins in Program Files be removed from within the browser.

      --
      Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    14. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 5, Funny

      News: Vulnerability in google chrome
      News: Vulnerability in Mozilla Firefox
      News: Some part of Internet explorer is safe!

      See? :)

    15. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Jezza · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Given that this is IE6, I think any talk about security is somewhat moot. Unless I don't understand it, this should make IE6 more secure - Chrome after all is a "modern" browser, and the page will be run inside that, and not actually touch the rest of IE6's feature set. I really don't see this at all, it strikes me that this is FUD. Maybe I'm missing the point here.

      Anyway, if users actually cared about security they'd not be running IE6 - even Microsoft see the upgrade from that as "critical".

    16. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Every 6 months to a year it seems there is yet another goof up that lets users access other users email (gmail) or data (google docs).

      Unless I'm missing something, most of this revolves around users accessing their data through HTTP over insecure wireless, neither of which is required by Google.

      It can be as simple as using https://mail.google.com/

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    17. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "many plugins have permissions the browser doesn't allow itself."

      Kinda bass ackwards? The OPERATING SYSTEM is supposed to allow or disallow permissions, not the browser. Oddly, I don't think your statement is bass ackwards - rather, MS has their security and convenience priorities bass ackwards.

      I will agree that MS has cleaned up browser security a lot. I was actually impressed with IE7, when it was locked down for server use. Default installation of IE8 on Win 7 does seem decently secure. But - the whacko boys haven't had a lot of time to attack it yet, either. Past history says, give it a few months. There are sure to be some "OH SHIT! I DIDN'T THINK THEY COULD DO THAT!" posts, here and elsewhere.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    18. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by mdm-adph · · Score: 1

      This behaviour has changed in Firefox 3.5, anyway.

      --
      It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
    19. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Every 6 months to a year it seems there is yet another goof up that lets users access other users email (gmail) or data (google docs).

      Your premise is wrong, hence your argument is wrong. All those goof-ups were not with the gmail you use, or the google docs you use. They were with contractual installations in colleges, etc. It's really like saying "Oh, hey, MS Exchange in X college got hacked, MS's security sucks!"

    20. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What exactly do bugs in a few web apps have to do with the chrome browser or engine?

    21. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Ephemeriis · · Score: 2, Informative

      Every 6 months to a year it seems there is yet another goof up that lets users access other users email (gmail) or data (google docs).

      Unless I'm missing something, most of this revolves around users accessing their data through HTTP over insecure wireless, neither of which is required by Google.

      It can be as simple as using https://mail.google.com/

      There's even a handy little checkbox in the Gmail options to always use HTTPS.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    22. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Both of those definitions require something amusing in the first place.

    23. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by ZarathustraDK · · Score: 1

      Ok asshat, you do not speak for google.

      Yes he does.

      God

      --
      If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
    24. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was the most recent foul-up, yes, but I think you need to look back further than just a few days

    25. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by D+Ninja · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Oh, hey, MS Exchange in X college got hacked, MS's security sucks!"

      ...but...we do say that around here...

    26. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by wasabii · · Score: 1

      I don't know. This makes sense to me. The IE frame spawns processes with less privledges than the user has, when running on Vista. This means plugins that are harmful cannot actually access the hard drive or registry, nor a

      Since Chrome does not do this, then yes, it is less secure.

    27. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      You do misunderstand it. Pages that opt to use the plugin will use Chrome, others will use the IE rendering engine. This means that any vulnerability in IE or any vulnerability in the Chrome plugin can be exploited by malicious code. In the absolute best case, when the plugin has no security holes, this is exactly as secure as IE by itself. If there is even one security hole in the plugin then this makes IE less secure. Of course, using Chrome without IE may well be more secure...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    28. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by vitaflo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Inciteful as the statement is, it's true... There's no way it can be false. A browser containing IE's engine *and* WebKit has all the security holes from both, and all the security holes gained in pushing one into the other.

      It's also true for any plug in you use in IE. I'm curious if MS would say the same about Flash, Java, etc? Because they all introduce their own security problems in IE in a similar way as Chrome Frame. The fact that MS is singling out Chrome Frame says more about how MS feels about Google than it does about the security of their browser.

    29. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Informative

      And one which can be applied domain-wide, if you've got apps for your domain.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    30. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      "Attack surface" is a security industry term which refers to the possible points an attacker could use to hack a system. It's a very vague term, but the general idea is that if you have a server with one listening port, and you add a second service on another port, you just doubled your attack surface.

      In this case, however, unless both the google javascript engine and the IE javascript engine execute every piece of javascript, this software does not double the attack surface, it merely shifts it. But if the google plugins do not come with auto-updaters, Microsoft does have a point to make about their security.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    31. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by gehrehmee · · Score: 1

      Not really.

      When you use Google Chrome to run a page, it subsumes all sorts of other Internet Explorer features. A large part of the Internet Explorer code path never executes, meaning many Internet Explorer-specific bugs and vulnerabilities will never be accessible.

      --
      "You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
    32. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Due to the way the attacks work, if you don't check the checkbox, you gain little by using HTTPS. (An attacker can easily get you to send your login cookie over HTTP, sniff it, and use it to access HTTP GMail. A proof of concept of this attack exists.)

    33. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by boa13 · · Score: 1

      And unless Google *forces* updates to the plugin, security patches will never be applied

      As far as I know, most if not all Google desktop apps use an auto-updater that does its job in utter silence (to the fury of control freaks, of course). This is definitely the case for Google Chrome, Google Talk, and Google Gears (which is a browser plugin).

    34. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Just considering the companies track record since it seems to apply well with cross-product security. But if you want chrome security flaws. Ok.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    35. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Most, yes, but there were a couple leaks (I believe with docs?) that didn't revolve around this.

      Anyway, since I've actually been encouraged to do the research, my point can stand without relying on comparison to their security in more long-running products...

      flaw flaw flaw. flaw.

      Actually, looking over the articles, I believe there are only three distinct flaws reported in this set, but my google search seemed to indicate there are more.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    36. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I suggest reading about Protected Mode as you are clearly ignorant of the API.

      The security features of the operating system are important, but even they provide significantly more functionality to a web browser than it should have. As a user you can establish an HTTP connection to a URL, download a binary, save it to a location in your profile, set it as executable and modify your login scripts to execute that binary. You might not be able to take root of the system, but you already own enough of it to perform nefarious tasks. Obviously the browser tries to prevent this from happening by simply not allowing such functionality through the implementation of ECMAScript, but that can't stop a plug-in from running rampant.

      In Internet Explorer 7.0/8.0 running on Windows Vista, Windows Server 2008 or Windows 7.0 with User Account Control enabled has access to the Protected Mode API which allows for the process to declare a constrained execution context in which to run. This prevents the browser from performing any actions above that constrained context, even if the current user has permissions to carry out that task. In order to carry out individual specific tasks above that permission level the application works through a defined security broker to negotiate those actions. When you are downloading a file Internet Explorer asks the security broker to prompt you where you wish to save that file and the security broker allows Internet Explorer to write only to that file handle. The same is true when the browser wishes to read or write cached content, or even access the clipboard.

      All code running with the browser is confined within the same constrained token. If the browser itself is exploited through a vulnerability either in the browser itself or a plug-in that exploit is confined within the sandbox. On several occasions this has already mitigated actively exploited vulnerabilities from damaging machines. For example, shortly after Vista was released a vulnerability was discovered in how Windows parses animated cursor media files which allowed the execution of arbitrary code. On Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 this vulnerability allowed malicious code to execute within the context of the current user. On Windows Vista, by default, the exploit would still be successful in the sense that the arbitrary code would execute, however that code was severely constrained and unable to modify any part of the file system, even the profile of the current user. Such functionality mitigates much of the damage that is possible through a successful exploit, root or not.

      In the case of plug-ins they are normally sandboxed along with the browser. However, if the plug-in is installed with administrative access (which requires permissions through User Account Control) that installer may provide its own security broker which allows the plug-in to interact at a higher security level. This was true with Adobe Flash shortly after Vista was released. In those cases exploits would still be largely mitigated, but the attack surface of the security broker itself has increased and if a local escalation vulnerability can be identified then a successful browser exploit can subsequently exploit that vulnerability to obtain current user privileges.

      No other browser on any other platform goes to such lengths to constrain and mitigate successful exploits within the browser, especially by default. As much fun as it is to rag on Microsoft, this is one area in which they are significantly ahead of the competition.

    37. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>MS's statement really just says it increases the attack surface, (pretty much a fact with any plugin)

      I agree with that part, but I don't agree with the last half of the statement which was: "Given the security issues with plugins in general and Google Chrome in particular..." What security problems is Google Chrome having? I'd like to see Microsoft back that up with some citations.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    38. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dear Microsoft,

      ActiveX.

      I told you back in the 90's it was a bad idea. So did the rest of us. But did you listen... No.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    39. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Jezza · · Score: 1

      OK, I get that. So MOST of the time it's just like IE (horribly insecure) but pages can opt for Chrome if they wish (and I'd guess if I were trying to do something nasty to your computer and I do opt for Chrome then it would be a reasonable assumption that I wanted to exploit Chrome in some way).

      OK I get it. So it's no different than say Flash really (except Flash does have a bad rep for security).

      I guess it's useful for companies who need to run IE6 (because they have some nasty legacy web app that requires it) but want to migrate to a "modern" browser (are probably developing new code to do so) users can gain the advantage of fast Javascript and HTML5 AND still use the legacy apps that need IE6. Useful, but yeah, I guess by definition no more secure than IE6, and potentially less secure (if an exploit is found for Chrome).

      Still seems like a useful stepping stone. Of course, I'd not recommend my "friends or family" to use this - they don't need downstream compatibility with IE6.

      Anyway thanks for the clarification.

    40. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by pyrbrand · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Besides the obvious (you have all the surface area of Chrome and IE together in the browser), there are a lot of questions I have about whether and how it respects IE's security settings, privacy settings, site filtering settings, no-script settings, script debugger settings and on and on. People can joke about how early versions of IE had huge security issues, but all the mitigations and fine grained control over what a page can and cannot do, as well as group policies put in place for sys-admins at corporations trying to protect their intranets are important. Maybe Chrome Frame plays nice with these, maybe they don't. My guess is that it doesn't handle every one of them with grace. (Disclaimer, I work at MS, but am not on the IE team).

    41. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by onefriedrice · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's really like saying "Oh, hey, MS Exchange in X college got hacked, MS's security sucks!"

      Err... what's wrong with saying that? If MS Exchange is hacked because of a vulnerability in Exchange, then there's nothing wrong with saying that MS's security sucks. Likewise, if Google's service shares your emails with more people than you had in mind (whether or not it's a vulnerability with the public gmail or their private email service--and there have been problems with both), then what's wrong with saying Google's security sucks? Nothing, unless there's some sort of double-standard your are trying to promote.

      The only discussion down this avenue that is worth discussing is concerning the overall security provided by both MS and Google, relative to each other. Personally, I would wager that Google probably trumps MS in several security categories, but I haven't looked at any research, therefore this assertion is based mostly on my own observations and biases.

      --
      This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
    42. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes. and privacy.

      Quick -- when was the last time Microsoft allowed thousands of people to access OTHER people's email -- and then DIDN'T fix it for 3 days!?

      That's what Google did just recently.

      People carping about MS and thinking Google is better are in for a rude awakening. Some of those who lost all their email privacy are already awake...

    43. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    44. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Rockoon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Dear jellomizer,

      This is essentially the same thing as an ActiveX component, with the exception that it doesn't use the COM+OLE framework to "plug in." This exception isn't very meaningful. The fact is that in both cases you are downloading a binary which then gets conditionally executed based on commands given in an HTML document.

      My beef with google here is that it looks like they are poised to lock in their own lack of standards compliance on us all (no rendering engine is 100% standards compliant, they all do some things slightly differently) Once this plugin gets installed on IE users machines, they have anchored us all to whatever rendering bugs that plugin has through market share. Will Mozilla or Opera dare to improve their rendering engines to be more-compliant if they then render differently to both webkit AND IE+webkit?

      This is an end-run around free market competition. Instead of letting IE die on its lack of merit, they are screwing over Firefox and Opera, making them play follow-the-leader when that lead isnt based solely on merit.

      I for one will be quite surprised if Opera is supported at all in the next wave (pun intended) of google apps, even though there is plenty of stuff Opera does right that none of the other browsers do (yes, theres stuff it does wrong too where webkit does it right)

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    45. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      So, three distinct flaws. A casual Google search shows that all the components for Google apps were in place around 2006-2007.

      So, significantly less than every six months.

      Or, if you just look at Gmail, it's been around since 2004. How many actual security flaws in over 5 years of operation?

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    46. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm the real God, disregard this impostor.

      P.S. just look at his sig. He's the devil in disguise!

    47. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's no more insecure than any other plugin (in theory). Using IE + some plugin is less secure than using IE without plugins, because there is more code that malicious scripts and so on can attempt to exploit. It's useful to web designers, because it's standards compliant. They can use modern, standard, HTML and make IE users use the plugin. It's not a new idea; there was a Gecko plugin made around 2001/2 that did the same thing, but it wasn't widely distributed.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    48. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by robschne · · Score: 1

      First article September 2, 2008 9:47 PM - probably fixed by now. Second article is talking about fixing a security hole. What about the browser hackers conference a few months ago where the only browser NOT compromised was chrome?

    49. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The half line of text in the about screen referencing NCSA Mosaic?

    50. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by SawEngChuan · · Score: 1

      Silverlight 2.x - 0 Vulnerabilities
      http://secunia.com/advisories/product/20227/

      Silverlight 3.x - 0 Vulnerabilities
      http://secunia.com/advisories/product/25996/

      Google Chrome 2.x - 10 Vulnerabilities
      http://secunia.com/advisories/product/25469/

      Google Chrome 3.x - 0 Vulnerabilities
      http://secunia.com/advisories/product/25720/

      Unfortunately, Secunia does not include Google Chrome 4.x data, which is the Chrome version using by the Chrome Frame

      as a plugin, Chrome seems have more Vulnerabilities

      I think we need to praise Microsoft on security area, after the Security Development Lifecycle, Microsoft increase the security of their products tremendously.

      Here is an example:
      Microsoft SQL Server 2008 - 0 Vulnerabilities
      http://secunia.com/advisories/product/21744/

      and try to find the Oracle data in the Secunia website, you will amaze

    51. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Actually, those are Chrome security flaws that I posted (one crash, two remote code execution), not google apps flaws.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    52. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one really thinks Google is any better, it's just that we're all nerds here, desperately trying to fit in somewhere, so we pretend that MS is different so we can feel like we're fitting in here at least.

    53. Re:Security issues with Google Chrome? by Caetel · · Score: 1

      Google silently updates Chrome, so I imagine that it would be the same for this plugin.

      I think this plugin is really aimed at the people who think Internet Explorer is the Internet, who wouldn't download and actually use Chrome. However, those people are the same people who would accept any download the browser throws at them...

  6. I agree by kimvette · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take.""

    . . . which is why one should run Firefox, konqueror, Mozilla, or Opera on Linux, Solaris, or BSD instead.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    1. Re:I agree by FlyingBishop · · Score: 1

      Or Chrome, or Safari, or even Firefox 2 on Windows

    2. Re:I agree by ZarathustraDK · · Score: 0, Troll

      Or Chrome, or Safari, or even Firefox 2 on Windows

      Dude, you got the Ferrari, why use it on rainy dirt-roads when newly laid dry tarmac is available? - old chinese saying

      --
      If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
    3. Re:I agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and not be able to run many commercial programs? I think that's some pretty crappy advice there. Businesses need quality business applications to function properly and the 'alternative' software in Linux isn't always of a high quality if it even exists. That's before we even start talking about hardware compatibility. Linux, Solaras and BSD are not suitable for many computing environments and users which is why companies still pay for Windows.

    4. Re:I agree by aardwolf64 · · Score: 1

      I've personally run BSD... it's not that great as a browser, but at least it's secure. No mouse support though...

      Wait, you're not talking about the Blue Screen of Death???

    5. Re:I agree by kimvette · · Score: 2, Informative

      crossover office will run MS office, the Adobe creative suite, and so forth very, very well. I no longer use MS Office at all, but I do use Photoshop and Illustrator on occasion, and I use esword on Linux all the time. The only things I cannot run that I need on Linux are embroidery applications (need "real" USB support for the machine) and I cannot run some games. At the office I can't run Quickbooks on Linux.

      Many proprietary commercial apps DO run on Linux through WINE or one of the commercial variants.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    6. Re:I agree by qwertyatwork · · Score: 1

      I run Safari on a BSD variant.

    7. Re:I agree by powerlord · · Score: 1

      and not be able to run many commercial programs? I think that's some pretty crappy advice there. Businesses need quality business applications to function properly and the 'alternative' software in Linux isn't always of a high quality if it even exists. That's before we even start talking about hardware compatibility. Linux, Solaras and BSD are not suitable for many computing environments and users which is why companies still pay for Windows.

      Personally I run Safari and FireFox on BSD every day.

      OSX *IS* BSD derived (and officially Unix).

      Heck, Snow Leopard even adds Exchange Support to Apple's built in Mail app.

      Why should businesses use windows again? (the only time I ever need windows now is when connecting to a customer's VPN, in which case running a Windows VM is an even BETTER solution, since connecting to the VPN usually cuts off all other internet access, which is much easier to deal with when its a Guest OS that is cut off).

      At the risk of more negative Karma, could someone please explain to me how this was marked into oblivion as a troll?

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    8. Re:I agree by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      You dissed both Apple and Microsoft. Fanboi mod rage ensued.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    9. Re:I agree by DaVince21 · · Score: 1

      Compatibility with new or badly supported hardware isn't a risk they would recommend their friends and families take, either.

      --
      I am not devoid of humor.
  7. It's alright by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm not Microsoft's friend or family.

  8. Of course by PhasmatisApparatus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course it doubles the attack rate of malicious scripts... It makes Javascript run twice as fast.

    In other news, Microsoft has said that Moores Law is a security risk, because viruses can install themselves twice as fast every 18 months.

    1. Re:Of course by tolan-b · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Attack surface not attack rate..

    2. Re:Of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Whooooosh!

    3. Re:Of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other news, Microsoft has said that Moores Law is a security risk, because viruses can install themselves twice as fast every 18 months.

      Microsoft already has a well-tested strategy for this. It includes avoiding all performance improvements to their OS.

  9. Thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You just made one of the most important arguments against Silverlight official.

    1. Re:Thanks by Yvan256 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Not only an argument directly from Microsoft against Silverlight but also against Flash!

      Why is Microsoft helping us like that?

    2. Re:Thanks by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      Yep...I'm betting that they realize this, but are hoping the unwashed masses won't twig onto what they just said there.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    3. Re:Thanks by gabebear · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's a great argument against Silverlight from a consumer's point of view. You have to load extra software which won't effect 99.9% of the pages you might visit.You aren't really adding any security, since the old crap is still there.

      From a web developers point of view this could be HUGE. Most customers wouldn't have a problem installing a Google-based plugin, and after we get them to install the plugin WE NEVER NEED TO CODE FOR IE AGAIN!!!!! Really, IE8 isn't a terrible browser, but IE7 and IE6 are unforgivably bad. This takes care of all the IE6, IE7, and IE8 incompatible crap and lets you override their engines by adding one tag to your page.

    4. Re:Thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they care about us.

    5. Re:Thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, Silverlight's security model is actually pretty nice. Also, to my knowledge, there's never been an exploit for it.

    6. Re:Thanks by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Yeah but the people still need to install that plug-in. Also I haven't really looked into it but what do you mean by adding one tag?

    7. Re:Thanks by HitoGuy · · Score: 1

      Jesus. The Micropologists seem to have gotten a lot of mod points today. I've been seeing a bunch of legitimate true posts modded down as troll or flamebait. Developing for IE6 *is* a royal pain in the ass, and IE's never been good even in its latest incarnation.

      Deal with it, Micropologists.

      --
      I am beginning to think that maybe Darl McBride was attacked viciously by a penguin as a child.
  10. Textbook FUD by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Given the security issues with plugins in general and Google Chrome in particular"

    O RLY?

    I'm happy to believe that IE8 actually has a good security model. I'm happy to believe that Chrome is not without flaws. But, really, Google have gone through fairly considerable pain and implemented quite strict sandboxing techniques for Chrome, to contain any problems in the renderer. It's pretty solid. Maybe it's better than IE8, maybe not. But just hand waving and going "Oh yes, *especially* Chrome" as if it's common knowledge that it's insecure is simply FUD.

    The point about increasing the attack surface area seems more valid, perhaps, though it really depends on how this plugin works. If there are really twice as many places available at once then yes, that is a worry. If you'd have to get through Chrome's security and then through IE8's security, that actually sounds quite good. Possibly the biggest security worry I see is in encouraging users to think that installing a large, scary plugin that basically replaces the guts of their browser is a normal occurrence that will make their internet experience better.

    1. Re:Textbook FUD by selven · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're not just adding the security of Chrome and IE, you're adding their insecurity as well.

    2. Re:Textbook FUD by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 1

      I realise that's the risk they're referring to. But whether it works like that really depends on how it's architected.

      If Chrome is using IE facilities to interact with the outside world, then that's exposing you to bugs in those IE facilities. If Chrome was using its own HTTP implementation, etc and basically just acting as an independent browser that happens to be embedded in an IE window then Chrome is going to be the one exposing bugs to the outside world.

      I assume that it is somehow using IE facilities so that you get the impression of an integrated browser, which makes it more likely that IE is also being exposed for attack. But it's not instantly obvious that that's definitely the case. Maybe if I'd read the article about the Chrome Frame when that came out ... ;-)

    3. Re:Textbook FUD by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      Heh... Since the general user population on Windows will install damned near any sort of crap on their box because it's "nifty", "cool", etc. along with at least prior versions of IE gleefully doing it for them whether they wanted it or not- why would it be any different now?

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    4. Re:Textbook FUD by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm happy to believe that IE8 actually has a good security model.

      And I thought that included sandboxing plugins? How can any plugin be a serious security threat with MS went through such pains to make IE bulletproof?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    5. Re:Textbook FUD by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      Google have gone through fairly considerable pain and implemented quite strict sandboxing techniques for Chrome, to contain any problems in the renderer.

      You said it. What you have in the plugin is the rendering engine, not the sandbox afaik. For that, IE sandbox should be used, the one that they claim that already protects from renderer bugs and plugins anyway.

    6. Re:Textbook FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      erm, I think you guys are missing the point (or maybe *I* am); google Chrome Frame *it's not* Chrome, it's just a *webkit* frame inside IE. This means that all the sandboxing techniques in Chrome (the browser) here are actually missing; so the MS statement (as far as IE8 - and IE7 to a certain extent - are concerned) is not that crazy

    7. Re:Textbook FUD by jeanph01 · · Score: 1

      Well it seems that given the FUD Ms is doing on this plug-in we can deduct that they are very uneasy about it. This is the same kind of FUD they did with Dr-Dos or Netware. One thing is different now though, people are used to Ms making FUD statements and we are not eager to believe everything as is what they tell now. But, since this is a technical argument FUD, I expect Google to respond accordingly like they always do.

      Google Frame is mainly aimed for corporations where IE is the main browser. This plugin in really a great great idea and change the game. This is what Google do best : change the game instead of going head to head with the competition. But going standard into corporate desktop will need a lot of proof of stability and security. Google can do it.

    8. Re:Textbook FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod++

    9. Re:Textbook FUD by amoeba1911 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can't add security, you can only add insecurity. A system is as secure as the weakest point of entry.

      That having been said, all plug-ins reduce security, including Flash and Silverlight, this is no different.

    10. Re:Textbook FUD by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      If a plugin installs with Administrator privileges, it can add exemptions to the sandboxing for itself. Flashplayer used to do this, for example - added an un-sandboxed broker process, and added an exemption to the Protected Mode boundary that allowed sandboxed applications to interact with the broker. Thus, while the Flash plugin itself was technically sandboxed, it actually had access to anything its broker process could be made to do. (I went looking for the registry key that adds this expemtion on a recent system, and couldn't find it, so perhaps they've stopped doing this... still serves to illustrate that if an installer is launched as Admin, it can open a hole in Protected Mode.)

      That said, if a plugin simply registers itself with IE (a task that requires Admin privileges, but which doesn't give any chance to add Protected Mode exemptions) then yes, plugins are fully sandboxed.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    11. Re:Textbook FUD by selven · · Score: 1

      Noscript reduces insecurity. Some features do close certain points of entry.

    12. Re:Textbook FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How? Because fucking _Microsoft_ made IE, that's how. IE is about as bulletproof as a vest made of Swiss cheese and filled with broken glass.

      The whole "friends and families" line is the one that illustrates what they're really trying to do, what they've been set out for YEARS to do -- slander their competitors in any way they possibly can. The reason they have to do this is due to the poor quality of their own products. Ever watch campaign speeches? Typically the politician who -wins- isn't the one who stands on the pulpit insulting and criticizing their opponents without really having anything to say (hi Hillary), it's the one who...you know...actually has a plan and qualifications. There's exceptions to that rule, of course, just like pretty much any rule human beings have devised.

      Similarly, Microsoft puts out inferior products. They know they're putting out inferior products because they can look at the sales numbers of Vista and realize just how badly they've fucked up, for example, but there's _PLENTY_ of others. Sure, they advertise their products as being superior to that of their competitors, but they also know that due to the fiasco that was Vista that people aren't necessarily inclined to _BELIEVE_ it. Solution? FUD, of course, Microsoft's old standby. "Your friends and family could be in grave danger if you use our competitor's browser plugin! Install IE8 before your children are kidnapped and your neighbour uses your credit card to buy bondage porn! Google Chrome is un-American!"

      Long story short, Microsoft is using a "maybe-possibly" scenario to lead to the conclusion that one of their competitor's products is absolutely _DANGEROUS_ to their oh-so-valuable customers. What was the expression that Radiohead used, "the greatest lying mouth of all time?" Well if you're looking for that mouth in the software industry, point your eyes directly at Redmond.

    13. Re:Textbook FUD by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Sarcasm doesn't fly too well with you, does it?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    14. Re:Textbook FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1 funny.

    15. Re:Textbook FUD by adisakp · · Score: 1

      I'm happy to believe that IE8 actually has a good security model. I'm happy to believe that Chrome is not without flaws.

      One thing worth knowing... on Windows, Chrome by itself runs as a user process - no OS-level permissions or hooks. It even installs in the USER directories -- I wish it would install in "Program Files" like everything else but Google made it so that even a "limited" user can install and use Chrome without escalating any privileges on the OS. On top of that, plugins and different parts of Chrome (windowing, html renderer, javascript, etc) run in separate processes that are sandboxed from each other and have the minimal number of privileges necessary (even less than the top-level "limited user") to function.

      This is a much more secure model than tightly integrated into the OS at system level that IE has.

    16. Re:Textbook FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I realize you were being sarcastic, that much was quite clear. I used the opportunity to make a point of my own by answering your "question." I would think that was quite clear, but hey, nobody's perfect, especially holier-than-thou egotists like yourself.

      Now, anything else that you need cleared up, or are you going to make yet another smarmy, pseudo-intellectual remark? If you feel like having the last word to satisfy your own personal needs feel free, I don't think I'm going to waste any more time on you.

    17. Re:Textbook FUD by Caetel · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure about Internet Explorer 8, but in IE 7 it is possible to develop plugins to circumvent the protected mode by basically handing off actions to a separate process when higher privileges are required.

      AFAIK, the case is the same with Chrome's sandboxing - it does not apply to plugins.

    18. Re:Textbook FUD by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      But, really, Google have gone through fairly considerable pain and implemented quite strict sandboxing techniques for Chrome, to contain any problems in the renderer.

      Yea, they've put a lot of effort in over the last 2 or 3 years. Of course, IE has 13 years of learning the hard way from it. Don't think Chrome/WebKit won't see numerous exploits, see the problem is, adding code to prevent exploits is likely to add an exploit itself. Its pretty much an accepted fact that its going to add a bug of some sort. IE has had 13 years to deal with fixing silly bugs (and adding new ones in the process of course), so don't think that Chrome is really any safer than IE for a while. Well, I mean it is, because no one is really targeting it and probably won't until we see a little share of the browser market and a stream of Chrome or WebKit exploits.

      Not saying IE is safe, just that age does come with some benefits to help offset the weaknesses to some extent.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  11. Good advice. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Given the security issues with plugins in general and Google Chrome in particular, Google Chrome Frame running as a plugin has doubled the attack area for malware and malicious scripts. This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take."

    Given that logic we shouldn't use Windows. Thanks Microsoft!

  12. Double Standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So... forcing the .NET plug-in on Firefox users was OK, but a voluntary add-on from Google is a security risk? Good to know.

    1. Re:Double Standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, yes, you see, the .NET plug-in was meant to increase compatibility without increasing the risk of attack vectors.

      Trust us, we know what is good for you,
      Microsoft

    2. Re:Double Standards by gabebear · · Score: 5, Informative

      They not only add the .Net plugin to Firefox without asking you, they change the useragent string for Firefox... oh and the .Net plugin doesn't have a built-in uninstaller like every other plugin.

      I thought I had a virus the first time I noticed it. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2009/05/microsoft_update_quietly_insta.html

    3. Re:Double Standards by jittles · · Score: 1

      Actually, after receiving flak over it, Microsoft changed the plugin so that you can uninstall it.

    4. Re:Double Standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damnit!
      I just checked, and the damn thing is back. I uninstalled it originally as soon as they provided the option.
      I wonder if this is a Windows Update feature, where I'm going to have to uninstall it every few weeks.

  13. Ingrates! by dangitman · · Score: 3, Funny

    a new open source plugin that injects Chrome's renderer and JavaScript engine into Microsoft's browser, earlier this week had many web developers happily dancing long through the night.

    Dancing Developers?? Get back to developing webs, like you're supposed to be doing! Didn't anybody tell you that you are no good at dancing?

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
    1. Re:Ingrates! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Awwwe..
      -Pouts and returns to her computer-
      Fine. Party Pooper...

      -Jessica-

    2. Re:Ingrates! by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      So that's who those hamsters were!

  14. Re:I'm Taking Notes by siddesu · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sweet Shimmer Glitter Lube. In juicy apple, boysenberry, pink champagne or pina colada.

  15. Revisit this in a year's time by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    Lets revisit this in a year's time. It will be interesting to see how many vulnerabilities are introduced by this compared to how many vulnerabilities in IE do not occur when browsing in a Chrome Frame. My guess is that it will be about even.

    1. Re:Revisit this in a year's time by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1

      Lets revisit this in a year's time. It will be interesting to see how many vulnerabilities are introduced by this compared to how many vulnerabilities in IE do not occur when browsing in a Chrome Frame. My guess is that it will be about even.

      I don't think so. I think the vulnerabilities will ADD up. For example... 10 in IE, 10 in the Chrome plugin, and say around 5 in IE can be exploited even with the Chrome frame on. So a user running this plugin in IE would be vulnerable to 15, instead of just 10.

      --
      This space for rent.
    2. Re:Revisit this in a year's time by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      I don't think so. I think the vulnerabilities will ADD up. For example... 10 in IE, 10 in the Chrome plugin, and say around 5 in IE can be exploited even with the Chrome frame on. So a user running this plugin in IE would be vulnerable to 15, instead of just 10.

      True but irrelevant. What matters is the number of exploits that occur only with the plugin and the number of exploits that only occur when it is not used (exploits of IE javascript engine, rendering, etc.) Those problems that occur anyway are not relevant to whether the plugin makes IE more or less secure.

    3. Re:Revisit this in a year's time by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      An attack page has the choice of using plain vanilla IE rendering, in which case it has the same chance of getting through whether you have the plugin or not, or it could use the plugin, in which case even one vulnerability in the plugin means that having the plugin makes your system less secure.

      Apple do release security updates for Safari from time to time, and some of those relate to the webkit engine that Chrome uses, so I would say there is a pretty good chance of at least one vulnerability in this plugin in the next year.

  16. Absolute Zero by kidblast · · Score: 1

    Did anyone else who read the headline think how is that possible?

  17. Ralph by drunken_boxer777 · · Score: 1, Funny

    As Ralph Wiggum would say:

    That's unpossible!

  18. By that logic... by MoOsEb0y · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... we should ban flash, acrobat reader, quicktime, and dozens of other plugins that all have regularly reported vulnerabilities.

    1. Re:By that logic... by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      Actually for some of those I think you'd get a loud cheer if they were banned..

      This is just Microsoft saying that the sandboxing in IE8 doesn't work and a browser plugin can compromise the system. That's how I read it, anyway.

    2. Re:By that logic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say that like it's a bad thing.

    3. Re:By that logic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact, I think we should.

      Not because of security reasons though, just because they are all horrible programs.

    4. Re:By that logic... by powerlord · · Score: 1

      By that logic we should ban flash, acrobat reader, quicktime, and dozens of other plugins that all have regularly reported vulnerabilities.

      Just for IE8, since they've admitted that plug-ins are so big a compromise to the browser's security that they wouldn't recommend friends and family run them.

      They should still be Ok for Chrome, FireFox, Safari and Opera though.

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    5. Re:By that logic... by Ajaxamander · · Score: 1

      Don't forget Silverlight. :-O

    6. Re:By that logic... by DaVince21 · · Score: 1

      Acrobat Reader? Stop living in the past!

      --
      I am not devoid of humor.
  19. Security good, plugins bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So they made great progress improving the security of IE8, but "plugins in general" still have security issues? Am I the only one who sees a faint contradiction here?

  20. Risk? I'll give you risk... by pbhogan · · Score: 2, Funny

    Microsoft is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take.

  21. Families by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

    This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take.

    Especially the children. Think of the children!

    He should have used "mortal danger" instead of simply "risk". Also, change "would recommend" for "let". And add some exclamations, for god's sake, this is serious.

    Thus, the closing sentence should be:
    "This is not a mortal danger we let our children take!"

    However, once you've decided to push factless crap with fear mongering, at least do it with style.

    I recommend:
    "If you allow your children to install the google demon, your entire family will suffer an eternity of pain, in HELL!"

    1. Re:Families by robb3030 · · Score: 1

      having google frame installed funds terrorism.

  22. My family disowned me after I installed it. by lawnsprinkler · · Score: 4, Funny

    "This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take." The Microsoft representative further stated that "Allowing your children to use the Google Chrome Frame plugin is tantamount to child abuse. In fact, we're not so sure that anyone installing this is truly capable of feeling love. What kind of heartless monster would willingly install this on their loved ones' browser?"

    1. Re:My family disowned me after I installed it. by awshidahak · · Score: 1

      "This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take." The Microsoft representative further stated that "Allowing your children to use the Internet Explorer program is tantamount to child abuse. In fact, we're not so sure that anyone installing this is truly capable of feeling love. What kind of heartless monster would willingly install this on their loved ones' computer?"

      Fixed it for 'ya.

  23. What about Flash? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ".... has doubled the attack area for malware and malicious scripts."

    Can't the same thing be said about the Flash Player Plugin?

    1. Re:What about Flash? by PIBM · · Score: 1, Informative

      Nop, the multiplier would be much bigger than double.

    2. Re:What about Flash? by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      So, more like 1E6?

  24. Oh please by gibbo2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because people still using IE6 are really worried about their browser security...

    1. Re:Oh please by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      People still using IE6 aren't a target group for another browser anyway so it is a moot point.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  25. Thanks Microsoft... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I heard about this but I wasn't going to install it yet. I don't use a lot of I.E. stuff, but what I do is Javascript intensive, so now that I know that your don't like it at Microsoft I have now installed it. Thanks for the heads up... since you don't like it there must be a reason to give it a look.

  26. Huh? Excuse me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How could anyone possibly make IE less secure?

    and, no, I don't think 8 is any better than previous versions!

  27. I can't believe it by Alzheimers · · Score: 1

    It's simply not possible for IE to be less secure, even if they stuck giant yellow landing stripes with a big blinking arrow visible from space with the label "ATTACK ME" on it.

  28. First Question that Comes to Mind by rehtonAesoohC · · Score: 1

    Well, the first question that comes to my mind is this:

    Why even bother using IE in the first place? The tab structure of Chrome is way better in my opinion. I'm not sure if IE8 supports tab dragging, but in Chrome, I love the ability to drag individual tabs out of the main window so that the tab becomes its own independent window. Often I'll have some code reference up on my main monitor, and I'll drag a hello world (or some test equivalent) page as a tab out of the main application. In IE, you'd have to run the program again to achieve the same result.

    Barring asinine security policies that prevent you from being able to use Chrome altogether, I just don't see the benefit of a plugin at all when you could just be using Chrome. *shrug*

    1. Re:First Question that Comes to Mind by robmv · · Score: 1

      Have you tried any non IE browser on an enterprise environment?, Mozilla is a pain to centrally configure, you need to add file to the installation directory to lock settings like proxy settings, or disable extensions installations. Chrome installer is a joke, it is installed on each user %APP_LOCAL_DATA, and if more than one person uses it on the same computer, each one of them will have a different copy and need to download updates separately

      Giving the option to use IE and its powerful AD configuration options + a modern renderer is a good option

    2. Re:First Question that Comes to Mind by somanyrobots · · Score: 1

      Those folks trapped behind

      asinine security policies

      are almost certainly the ones the Chrome frame is targeted at, though. Only tech-savvy users will actually seek out this plugin, and tech-savvy users who still use IE almost always use it because they're ordered to.

      This article is straight-up Microsoft FUD, the same bull they've been feeding us for twenty years now.

  29. Sounds to me that Microsoft... by dgun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ..is scared.

    So Microsoft, how does it feel? How does it feel to have a big bad company with a near monopoly in one market (Google in search) threaten your stake in a different market (browsers)?

    --
    FAQs are evil.
    1. Re:Sounds to me that Microsoft... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up. Time they got the shaft for a change. And I can think of what size shaft I'd like to use on them....

    2. Re:Sounds to me that Microsoft... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt scared is the right word. If it was me I would put my head down on a table and pout for awhile. As my testing infrastructure just doubled. MS bends over backwards to make sure things 'just work' (maybe I am stretching it a bit but they do tons of compatibility testing). They spend tons of time testing and retesting. So now this new configuration is a 'possible' one and they have to test for it. It is a whole new attack surface to take into account. As chrome would be running inside of iexplorer.exe. What does that mean? How would someone attack it? Now developers need to come up to speed on a whole big blob of code they probably havent touched before. Then when IE crashes (all browsers do) is it the plugin, a combination of it and say flash, or is it IE itself? Is that crash exploitable (probably). The fuzzers they have written all need to be retouched again. Does MS take responsibility of making sure these plug-ins are up to date or just leave that to each plug-in?

      Yeah if I was MS I would be scared too of the giant freeking cost that was just dumped on them.

      As an end user I looked at that and said 'Hmm that is kind of cool. However, why wouldnt I just run chrome instead?' Start up another application. My God I am not that lazy.

    3. Re:Sounds to me that Microsoft... by awshidahak · · Score: 1

      How does it feel to have a big bad company with a near monopoly in one market (Google in search) threaten your stake in a different market (browsers)?

      Yes... because Microsoft makes piles of money off of Internet Explorer.

    4. Re:Sounds to me that Microsoft... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes... because Microsoft makes piles of money off of Internet Explorer.

      In the low billions of dollars, at least. I know plenty of corporate types who are locked into Windows solely because of internal web apps that are hardcoded against IE6 or older. Unsurprisingly, IT doesn't want to pay for a beefier desktop machine for them to run their OS of choice plus a licensed copy of Windows in a VM just so they can access a certain site plus having to support twice the software for each person using such a system.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    5. Re:Sounds to me that Microsoft... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Yes, they do you ignorant twat. Or maybe you don't think controlling the home page/search actually provides money? What do you think Google lives on then, good intentions?

    6. Re:Sounds to me that Microsoft... by Demena · · Score: 1

      Huh? "things just work" is apple's motto. And Microsoft has never, ever got within a light year of"things just work". Doubly... "all browsers do". No, they don't. I have run mozilla for years on FreeBSD and Darwin. I also use Safari quite a bit. And no, browsers don't crash at the drop of a hat. If these are your experiences then you appear to be living and working in a toxic atmosphere. Change the environment.

  30. I have great respect for Google by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 3, Funny

    But I doubt that even they could make IE less secure than it already is.

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    1. Re:I have great respect for Google by that+IT+girl · · Score: 1

      Took the words right out of my mouth!

      "This plugin makes Internet Explorer less secure" sounds something like "Those shoes make Lindsey Lohan look more skanky".

      --
      10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
      20 DRINK COFFEE
      30 GOTO 10
    2. Re:I have great respect for Google by monkeySauce · · Score: 1
      That's not funny, it's true and I can prove it.

      Google Chrome Frame running as a plugin has doubled the attack area for malware and malicious scripts

      The attack area of IE is roughly equal to infinity, therefore:
      infinity*2 => infinity

      So there, no effect.

    3. Re:I have great respect for Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only on slashdot....attack MS, and rightly so, but let Google off the hook. They complete against MS through browsers, and this is just stealing the data MS would mine from the system for Google.

      It's sleazy, but defended here because slashdotters love The Google, no matter what.

  31. Hey! by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1, Funny

    >Microsoft Says Google Chrome Frame Makes IE Less Secure
    Everyone knows Microsoft Is What Makes IE Less Secure!

    ~ there...fixed that for you.

    1. Re:Hey! by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      I got most modded funny, and one troll, geez I wonder who might have trolled me!

  32. That was quick. I'm impressed! by mkdx · · Score: 1

    MS was actually pretty fast in addressing this urgent security matter!
    If only they were this prompt in addressing the security and standard complaints they have...

  33. Windows by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

    did you mean "Horribly insecure operating system"?

    I'm not saying that google should use thier position as #1 search provided to bitchslap slap microsoft but if i were them:
    active X => did you mean "poorly thought put gaping security hole"?
    fault hardware => did you mean "xbox"?
    how do i get rid of malware? => did you mean "how do i install linux"?

    --
    IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
  34. Sandboxing not included? :-( by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 1

    Ah, OK, I hadn't realised that about it. Because of not reading TFPA (the fine previous article) on the plugin.

    But - as you say - it's not really clear how Chrome makes things worse.

    Also, it sounds like it's not then a case of:

    Total vulnerabilities = IE8 vulnerabilities + Chrome vulnerabilities

    but rather

    Total vulnerabilities = IE8 vulnerabilities - IE8 renderer vulnerabilities + Chrome vulnerabilities - Every Chrome vulnerability that's *not* in the renderer

    And it's not obvious to me that this total number is any worse than either browser in "vanilla" state would be expected to have.

    1. Re:Sandboxing not included? :-( by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      No, checked before putting that in other comment. IE8 Renderer is still there. You put a meta tag in your site saying that for that page the google renderer plugin must be used. So normal pages still use IE8 renderer, but you can make an exploit page with that meta tag to activate specifically the google plugin, if there is ever an interesting easily exploitable bug on it.

    2. Re:Sandboxing not included? :-( by mR.bRiGhTsId3 · · Score: 1

      Its not that simple. You also get vulnerabilities added at the interface between chrome and IE 8, since what the chrome frame is doing is highly invasive.

    3. Re:Sandboxing not included? :-( by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 1

      Good point.

      But just how invasive is it? What technique do they actually use to do it I wonder? I guess they could "simply" replace the standard library implementation of the Trident engine with one of their own? That would at least use an established interface though presumably there'd be potential holes where unwritten rules of this interface were violated? Or do they reach into IE at runtime and tweak things; that would be very nasty.

      Either way it would seem that they're quite likely to have increased the likelihood (!) of there being exploits in there somewhere. I don't see that it's a doubling as MS claimed but I can understand the rhetorical reasons for saying that. And it does sound like it could well make things "worse" for some value of worse.

    4. Re:Sandboxing not included? :-( by mR.bRiGhTsId3 · · Score: 1

      I figure they just picked a number arbitrarily that isn't completely unreasonable. Probably a little on the high side, but I still think it is believable.
      I don't think they could replace trident since other things depend on that, but I'm stilll surprised they were able to do this at all. In my readings of the IE add-on they provide a much more restrictive model than say Firefox where you they extensions patch the browser at runtime however they feel like it.

    5. Re:Sandboxing not included? :-( by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Does sound like it probably makes things worse. I think saying "double" made sense from a rhetorical perspective as it emphasizes the point that there are now two relatively unrelated things that could go wrong but I do think it's a bit unfair. The "Google Chrome in particular" line still irks me, though.

      I've posted a follow up to my original comment suggesting anyone who reads it should make sure they read all the discussion beneath it.

      Regarding replacing Trident, yes it's use by other things. What I was wondering was whether they'd provided a library to wrap the Trident implementation. Such a wrapper could perhaps pass everything through to Trident by default but have the option of passing stuff to the Chrome rendering engine instead. That way they could avoid breaking things.

      I should probably just stop speculating idly and actually read the articles concerned though :-S

  35. Re:I'm Taking Notes by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 1

    What? No 'Hot Grits' flavor?

    --
    This guy's the limit!
  36. One more thing by rehtonAesoohC · · Score: 1

    Who wants to place bets on how long it will take before the "Windows Malicious Software Removal Tool" flags this plugin as malicious software and automatically removes it?

    "But it's a security risk!" they'll say...

    I seem to remember back when Microsoft first introduced the removal tool, that it flagged IE as harmful and deleted it.

    1. Re:One more thing by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      I seem to remember back when Microsoft first introduced the removal tool, that it flagged IE as harmful and deleted it.

      Well, they got it half right, but they didn't also install Firefox.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  37. Yeah, I was somewhat wrong but still cry FUD on MS by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 1

    You should get modded up. Yes, others have also mentioned that it's just webkit (and V8, I guess). So Chrome's sandboxing isn't there, in that case. But it's still not clear to me why this would necessarily be worse. The MS statement still smells like FUD to me - they're basically suggesting that Chrome's rendering engine is obviously less secure than IE's but not really saying why. And if they're omitted the complexity of the rest of Chrome and just replaced the rendering engine it's still not really clear to me why the total attack surface would be any greater - there's still the same number of components in there as in the vanilla browser, just mixed up a bit.

  38. For once, I agree with Microsoft... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't suggest anyone use ChromeFrame. It would double the attack-vector for malware. Unfortunately for Microsoft, the logical conclusion would be to simply switch completely to Google Chrome, as that would be the least susceptible browser of the two choices.

    Will do Microsoft. Thanks for the heads-up.

  39. Insecure....? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So that means that the plugin architecture of IE 8 is completely insecure ?....

  40. Re:I'm Taking Notes by Orbijx · · Score: 1

    I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or ask where I can order some of that.

    --
    One of these days, I am going to flip out. When I flip out, I'll be back in five minutes.
  41. What's the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So people who don't want to download and use the Chrome Browser are going to be more likely to download and use the Chrome Plugin?

    1. Re:What's the point? by sadler121 · · Score: 1

      When Youtube ditches flash and goes full html5, they'll find it more convenient to install a plugin, which they where already conditioned to do for flash, then to install a whole new browser.

    2. Re:What's the point? by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Wow, good point. I hadn't thought of that.

      Although, the thought that Google would actually mean to do that is disturbing. At least the transition to HTML5 was hopefully going to force the YouTube crowd to update their insecure browsers. The idea of letting them install a nice plugin for their insecure browser instead is troubling.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  42. In other news... by TrixX · · Score: 0, Troll

    Microsoft has told skydivers that they don't recommend using parachutes, because a parachute adds to their weight.

    This (as the advice stated by microsoft) is based on strictly true facts (greater attack area) but it is also strictly useless advice...

  43. What about Silverlight? by robmv · · Score: 2, Insightful

    applying the same crazy MS thoughts, then Silverlight make IE less secure

    1. Re:What about Silverlight? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      As does flash, java, acrobat, etc.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  44. Friends and family by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well of course Microsoft "doesn't recommend" their friends and family use the Chrome plugin. If they did, next thing you know their friends and family are down at the T-Mobile shop eying Android phones, or over at the Apple Store snapping up an iPhone. As long as those friends and family are only exposed to Microsoft products, they'll never realize that the grass, indeed, really is greener on the other side of that fence - because those other guys actually feed and water their lawn!

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  45. Actually MS is right. by Deathlizard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    By running this plugin, you would be exposing yourself to not only Possible IE exploits, but possible Chrome Exploits as well. It would be much safer to run the Chrome browser standalone since it reduces the attack surface. It would probably be faster standalone too.

    1. Re:Actually MS is right. by RareButSeriousSideEf · · Score: 4, Informative

      +1.

      I actually got one of my systems pwned (for the first time in > 10 years) via Chrome, in incognito mode no less. Not saying that any other browser would have stopped it, least of all IE; it was a Java -- not javascript -- vulnerability... http://blog.cr0.org/2009/05/write-once-own-everyone.html. This vulnerability allowed an applet to escape both Chrome's and Java's sandboxing. The point is just that no browser is by itself a silver bullet of invulnerability, especially when plugins and external runtimes are involved.

      Now I run Chrome standalone with the -disable-java command line switch to cut the attack surface down a bit. It's not as versatile as NoScript in FF, but you can run Chrome instances with javascript, plugins, etc. disabled on an individual basis. A list is at http://www.chromeplugins.org/tips-tricks/chrome-command-line-switches/.

    2. Re:Actually MS is right. by should_be_linear · · Score: 1

      Following that logic, using TCP/IP monitor for browsing web is even better. It is much smaller and therefore far less vulnerable comparing to that "browser" thing.

      --
      839*929
    3. Re:Actually MS is right. by ejtttje · · Score: 1

      I've been thinking about this, I'm not so sure it increases the attack surface. If the Chrome plugin is doing all the loading/parsing/rendering/javascript, then does it matter if IE has security issues in those areas? They're no long exposed because the plugin is doing the processing.

      If this is the case, then we're just replacing one attack surface with another instead of exposing both.

      Also, I see this as a way to enable user revolt regarding all those corporate mandated IE installations... now they can still be "running IE", but at the same time, not actually using it. Depends on whether the IT lusers have the permissions/fine print set up about installing browser plugins vs. full applications.

    4. Re:Actually MS is right. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      By running this plugin, you would be exposing yourself to not only Possible IE exploits, but possible Chrome Exploits as well. It would be much safer to run the Chrome browser standalone since it reduces the attack surface.

      This is true, but it is also somewhat misleading. Same argument can be applied to installing Flash and Silverlight, or JRE and .NET plugins to run applets and ClickOnce/XBAP, respectively. The argument would still hold true in that case, but, I would suspect, much less popular.

    5. Re:Actually MS is right. by mcrbids · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I actually got one of my systems pwned (for the first time in > 10 years) via Chrome, in incognito mode no less. Not saying that any other browser would have stopped it, least of all IE; it was a Java -- not javascript -- vulnerability... http://blog.cr0.org/2009/05/write-once-own-everyone.html [cr0.org]. This vulnerability allowed an applet to escape both Chrome's and Java's sandboxing.

      ... and the fact that this happened while you were using Chrome's "incognito mode" is a good indication of the types of sites that you were visiting when this happened.

      Look - wearing a bullet-proof vest does offer a degree of protection greater than normal clothing, but that doesn't mean that you should be walking around the red-light district of Oakland, CA after dark. You can still get knifed, kidnapped, or shot in the head. It also won't protect you from the impact of hitting the ground after jumping out of an airplane without a parachute.

      No tool is invulnerable, and no tool will protect you from risky behavior.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    6. Re:Actually MS is right. by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 1

      Incidentally I just turned Java off the last time I heard of an exploit. Unless you're using some particular web app that requires it you probably won't even notice.

      I haven't run into a useful (interpreted) Java app in years.

    7. Re:Actually MS is right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually got one of my systems pwned (for the first time in > 10 years) via Chrome, in incognito mode no less. Not saying that any other browser would have stopped it, least of all IE; it was a Java -- not javascript -- vulnerability... http://blog.cr0.org/2009/05/write-once-own-everyone.html. This vulnerability allowed an applet to escape both Chrome's and Java's sandboxing. The point is just that no browser is by itself a silver bullet of invulnerability, especially when plugins and external runtimes are involved.

      Set up a virtual-box VM and browse from there. That's a pretty decent level of sandboxing. You can make it look like a native window / native app with the HOST+L key.

    8. Re:Actually MS is right. by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      It would be much safer to run the Chrome browser standalone since it reduces the attack surface.

      This plugin is directed at IE users through web developers. This gives web developers the ability to use some of the more modern technologies without the fear that they'll cut out IE users. Developers can add some code to their pages that will check if the user is using IE without the plugin, and the developer can take some sort of action if so.

      So yeah, it would be safer if the users only ran Chrome and not IE, but those aren't the type of users this is aimed at. This is aimed at people who still want to use IE.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    9. Re:Actually MS is right. by GrievousMistake · · Score: 1

      Though if we could at least get so far that the choice was between IE with the Chrome plugin and IE with the Flash plugin...
      But of course, I'm sure the IE team has already done the responsible thing and told their friends and family to stay the hell away from that shit.

      --
      In a fair world, refrigerators would make electricity.
    10. Re:Actually MS is right. by quanticle · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. If the user is running the Chrome plugin inside IE, then its quite possible that IE's reduced permission mode would thwart an attack that was relying on Chrome running with normal privileges.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    11. Re:Actually MS is right. by Deathlizard · · Score: 1

      The argument can be applied to other plugins (Flash, Silverlight, Java, ETC) on a browser as well, since they do open up the attack surface. The difference here is that the browser plugin being used in this case IS a browser and has it's own set of plugins it's bringing over.

      So now you got a IE (Flash, Chrome(Flash, ETC), ETC) situation instead of just an IE(Flash, ETC) situation. Simply put, You would have to deal with exploits with IE flash as well as exploits in Chrome flash. If they are seperated, the attack surface is only IE surface or Chrome's surface, and not both.

      Honestly, the only positive thing I see coming from this plugin is maybe this will wake Microsoft up and force them to focus on their Javascript performance in future browsers. IE8 is definetly better at rendering sites than it's predecessors. Now it just needs to have the script performance kicked into overdrive.

    12. Re:Actually MS is right. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Honestly, the only positive thing I see coming from this plugin is maybe this will wake Microsoft up and force them to focus on their Javascript performance in future browsers. IE8 is definetly better at rendering sites than it's predecessors. Now it just needs to have the script performance kicked into overdrive.

      I don't think this will, but there's a much more compelling reason: Office Web Apps, which is mostly HTML/JS, with a few Silverlight bits (and even those have HTML/JS fallback). I've tried them now that they're in limited beta, and they work noticeably faster in Chrome and even Firefox than they do in IE8 - and Chrome/Firefox version isn't missing any features, either, so it's plainly better. I have no doubts that relevant teams in Microsoft are well aware of this, and understand how embarrassing it is, so I'd imagine there's a lot of pressure on IE team now to significantly improve performance - specially for JS - in the next release. Now that they have acceptable level of standard conformance (CSS 2.1 is finally fully supported, thank God), focusing on performance is the next logical step.

    13. Re:Actually MS is right. by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Yeah, lets take it to an extreme. If you don't have a point, and can't think of anything smart to say, then push the barriers.

    14. Re:Actually MS is right. by ignavus · · Score: 1

      By running IE you are exposing yourself not only to Possible IE exploits, but also to possible Windows exploits.

      It would be much safer to run Firefox or Chrome ... inside Linux or MacOSX, not Windows.

      By using Windows at all, the user shows that security is not their highest priority. So why does Microsoft argue security here? Because they don't want to lose users to Google.

      The real security problem here is: Microsoft feels insecure when users turn to Google. Microsoft advising users against the security dangers of competitors' platforms is just too funny.

      --
      I am anarch of all I survey.
    15. Re:Actually MS is right. by oiron · · Score: 1

      ...silver bullet of invulnerability...

      Metaphor FAIL!

    16. Re:Actually MS is right. by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      LogMeIn on non Windows systems... Just saying, useful java app.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    17. Re:Actually MS is right. by jesset77 · · Score: 1

      If this is the case, then we're just replacing one attack surface with another instead of exposing both.

      I agree with Parent. Unless some task of the browser is being demonstrably carried out twice, there is no actual increase in attack surface.

      --
      People willing to trade their freedom of expression for temporary entertainment deserve neither and will lose both.
  46. Give Google a Nobel Prize, then! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Making IE LESS secure is like discovering perpetual motion - rational people had long since concluded that it would be IMPOSSIBLE.

  47. hey microsoft by chelroms · · Score: 0

    hey Microsoft you always pushing your company too hard don't dictate us which one would we choose... if some love google ok make that as a challenge make yours more advanced than theirs so that we chose you in the world today its full of challenges... http://www.techandgizmo.com/

  48. Will anyone actually use it? by GeckoAddict · · Score: 1

    Finally, someone had found a way to get Internet Explorer users up to speed on the Web.

    Really, are common IE users are all going to rush to install this plugin? I'd bet most don't even KNOW what javscript is, much less that there's a plugin that makes it better. If you manage to convince users to install it to improve their google experience, can we really call them 'up to speed on the web'? Anyone really 'up to speed' has moved on to another browser anyway, unless they're forced to use IE (company policy, etc).

  49. Makes me think of the scene from the Hangover... by wilburdg · · Score: 1

    Microsoft, you're a, you, ah, you're such a bad company. Like all the way through to your core.

  50. Re:kettle/black Re:AdBock for chrome / IE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    You should check out Privoxy as an AdBlock replacement, it runs as a daemon / service, so it'll work with _any_ browser you use.

  51. IE is the container by PinkyDead · · Score: 1

    There are a number of services that the container for these plugins should be provided and are therefore responsible for. Security is one of them - otherwise you can't claim to have a secure container.

    Often we have heard of plugins being blamed for Firefox performance, for example, and I wouldn't accept that either.

    --
    Genesis 1:32 And God typed :wq!
  52. Microsoft Plugins by Demonantis · · Score: 1

    Wasn't there a Microsoft add on for Firefox that forcefully installed itself. Wouldn't that increase the "surface of attack". Why doesn't Microsoft get with the interests of their customers, developers and let us make informed decisions. Or at least follow their own advice.

  53. Re:IE Lightyears ahead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    I would have to disagree. I don't ever remember there being a time when IE could be said to have been ahead of it's largest competitor ( whatever that competitor ). IE may have had a feature here and there that the other major browser lacked at times, but the other browser would have just as many or more features that IE lacked to counterbalance them. Though more people developed sites that took advantage of IE specific features than took advantage of Brand X specific features, and that had the effect of making IE look good since it was the only browser that could run these sites, that doesn't mean IE was better or ahead. "IE comes with windows" + "Windows is what everyone is running" = "If I develop for IE, then everyone can use my site."

    Which browser is more capable in some abstract sence matters little, what is important is what browser does what I want it to do ( for lazy site developers that means let me use the most features while having everyone able to view the site, for users it means which browser works with most of the web, and is integrated into my desktop OS as well making it fast to load ) And since people's machines were smaller back then most people just didn't have the ram to waste on having two browsers preloaded into ram all the time so they would both load fast IE did much of the work of the windows gui which actually makes sense. ) For that advantage, the browsing capabilities of IE could be quite inferior before using another browser on windows was justifiable. Many of us (like me) did it anyway, but most didn't have a stake in the browser wars, or understand that the only reason IE worked at all was that there was an alternative. A monopoly will always produce a steaming pile of crap because monopolies are allowed to. Monopolies always underproduce and overcharge. Competition means quality is necessary, and that it won't cost too much. Of course Microsoft is capable of producing good stuff, but not if it doesn't have to.

    Spending what could be shareholder profits on quality requires justification by the threat of losing customers.

  54. Pot, Kettle = Black by TigerPlish · · Score: 1

    I guess they forgot about their little .NET plugin which insinuated itself on Firefox installs.

    Where's the outcry on that gem? Hmm? I mean other than here in slash, which no mainstreamer even knows about.

    --
    The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
  55. Worse: ActiveX plug-in for Firefox by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    A while ago someone at our office installed an ActiveX plug-in for Firefox so that they could use some internal web app. Talk about security hole! Adding IE into anything is a disaster.

    1. Re:Worse: ActiveX plug-in for Firefox by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Ick. They should've used IETab, at least then they can create a filter so it automatically uses the IE engine only for the web app that requires it, and not for anything else unless you specifically tell it to.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  56. What has google solved with this plugin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone who can't install a new browser (for whatever reason) is not going to be able to install a plugin for the same reason.

  57. Bigger attack surface by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 1

    Ah, OK. That's a bit manky but it does explain where the bigger attack suface comes from I guess - you get to choose which renderer you attack. It's not a doubling in attackable code, since only the renderer is swappable. But there are two renderers and you can choose which one to attack. Ewww, though.

  58. MS is afraid of GOOGLE by nulled · · Score: 1

    Google Frame may or may not make IE more or less secure. I would support that Google Frame makes IE no less insecure than it already is.

    What MS is REALLY concerned about, is not the security. Ha, when has MS really been scared of botnets and malware?

    No, the REAL reason is that Google Chrome and up coming Google OS plans to allow programmers to make 3D games, mult-media softeware (photoshop, audition, 3dsmax,,,etc) and ANY OTHER type of application that would normally be only available to applications programmed and run on as a native EXE binary.

    What Google is trying to do, is make the platform (Mac, Linux Windows) irrelevant, by allowing the Browser to become so powerful and flexible, that is does not matter what OS you run. This effectively threatens Microsofts #1 cash cow, WINDOWS.

    You can blame MS for deciding to attack Google with BING... now Google is responding in full force. Google does NOT want to die out and allow BING to take out Google and it's Search market share.

    So, it is war. And Chrome OS is Googles weapon. (It started with Google Docs, than Gears, now Google Native Client)

    1. Re:MS is afraid of GOOGLE by lotho+brandybuck · · Score: 1
      Thinking of this from Microsoft's perspective, it's a little bit of code inserted into their browser runtime... eventually, version by version, this grows in functionality and features and eats its way outward, taking over more and more of what IE was doing. Then Google comes out and says: Hey, you don't need this little shell of IE to start up the browser internals we gave you.

      So yes, MS is afraid. And they should be.

  59. Citations appreciated. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    While I may disagree that it's a problem, with your citations we can talk about facts. Thanks.

    The first security flaw was from September 2008, and involved social engineering. From the looks of it, the Chrome guys were so familiar with the Chrome interface that they probably didn't consider that anyone could be tricked into downloading an app. with that technique. The fact that Apple had already tested with a "more diverse" user set is unsurprising.

    The second technique:

    "If a user has Google Chrome installed, visiting an attacker-controlled Web page in Internet Explorer could have caused Google Chrome to launch, open multiple tabs, and load scripts that run after navigating to a URL of the attacker's choice. Such an attack only works if Chrome is not already running. "

    I don't really blame them for missing this since they probably don't use IE. And I must say I would have been tempted to classify this as an IE bug.

    If the examples you provided are typical for the Chrome security flaws I think it's time to deploy it to my friends and family.

    1. Re:Citations appreciated. by Ironica · · Score: 1

      The second technique:

      "If a user has Google Chrome installed, visiting an attacker-controlled Web page in Internet Explorer could have caused Google Chrome to launch, open multiple tabs, and load scripts that run after navigating to a URL of the attacker's choice. Such an attack only works if Chrome is not already running. "

      I don't really blame them for missing this since they probably don't use IE. And I must say I would have been tempted to classify this as an IE bug.

      I would be too, since it works if you visit a website in IE, but doesn't work if you visit a website in Chrome.

      What I wonder is... does the Chrome Frame counter this particular exploit? I could see it doing so by either negating the "visit in IE" requirement (by using the Chrome rendering engine) or the "Chrome not running" requirement (by running the Frame).

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
  60. It's not supposed to work this way... by MMC+Monster · · Score: 1

    Embrace, Expand, Extinguish... It's not supposed to work against MS products.

    --
    Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
  61. True, but also not true. by Domini · · Score: 1

    Sure, adding anything to IE will only give it more possible attack points. Adding any other in-tab browser to IE will give IE the additional security vulnerabilities of that browser. This will increase the total number of possible security holes in the application.

    But... on most sites you only use one type of browser at a time. And since it is well known that IE is 1) insecure, 2) a bullseye painted on a target ... it can only increase your overall safety to use a different browser. In particular chrome/webkit.

    So both true and false, depending how you look at it.

  62. Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really don't think there's any way to make IE *less* secure than it already is.

  63. Wait what?? by denmarkw00t · · Score: 1

    ...family....friends....

    Haha, good one - we know you work for MS - you have no friends, and your family has abandoned you. Enjoy your "safer" browsing experience alone.

  64. typo fixed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > a Microsoft spokesperson told Ars

    a Microsoft spokesperson was talking out of his Ars

    There, fixed.

  65. to be fair? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    an active internet connection makes IE less secure. so.

    to ma to
    to mah to

  66. The May Update by westlake · · Score: 1
    They not only add the .Net plugin to Firefox without asking you, they change the useragent string for Firefox... oh and the .Net plugin doesn't have a built-in uninstaller like every other plugin.

    The Update:

    In .NET Framework 3.5 SP1, the .NET Framework Assistant enables Firefox to use the ClickOnce technology that is included in the .NET Framework. The .NET Framework Assistant is added at the machine-level to enable its functionality for all users on the machine. As a result, the Uninstall button is shown as unavailable in the Firefox Add-ons list because standard users are not permitted to uninstall machine-level components.

    In this update for .NET Framework 3.5 SP1 and in Windows 7, the .NET Framework Assistant will be installed on a per-user basis. As a result, the Uninstall button will be functional in the Firefox Add-ons list.

    This update will also make this version of the .NET Framework Assistant for Firefox compatible with future versions of the Firefox browser. To properly update the .NET Framework Assistant, this update must be applied while the extension is enabled in Firefox. ... Updates to the .NET Framework Assistant may include updates to the Windows Presentation Foundation Plug-in for Firefox causing it to be enabled upon its initial update.

    Update to .NET Framework 3.5 SP1 for the .NET Framework Assistant 1.0 for Firefox [May 6 2009] [about 700 KB]

    The update is in .Net framework 4.0, currently in beta. How to remove the .NET Framework Assistant for Firefox [June 2, 2009]

  67. Cut and Dried Conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By encouraging the use of an insecure browser, they will cause more people's computer to be compromised.

  68. Mistaken market. by neo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Google is not in the business of providing searches. Google is in the business of selling ads. It just happens that having the best search gives you more eyeballs on your ads. They leverage that advantage to gain share in other markets. It does sound like another company I've heard about.

    But you're on target here, this is obviously not comfortable for Microsoft. Five years ago they wouldn't have even bothered to issue a response. This is the kind of press release that is pure fear.

    Someone has made a plug-in for your browser that makes it 8X faster.

    • It shows incompetence of your developers that someone else had apparently patched your buggy/slow software.
    • Eventually people learn that it's actually another browser. Most people don't even know what a browser is.
    • Why use something in emulation when you can run the real thing? People will switch.

    It's something I said a long long long time ago. What can kill Microsoft? Something free.

    1. Re:Mistaken market. by daveime · · Score: 1

      Something free

      So something made by the world's biggest ad seller, that will force your homepage to google.com, and silently report back every URL you are visiting to google.com is "free" ???

      It's Google Toolbar in a bigger window, don't kid yourself.

    2. Re:Mistaken market. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err, all of my chrome installations do NOT have google as a homepage and I can't remember ever changing that setting. Also, chromium (chromes base) is free software (as in open) everyone can grab a copy and change whatever they like, in your case many people preceeded you in creating iron. Chrome without reporting back.

    3. Re:Mistaken market. by Zoxed · · Score: 1

      > Google is not in the business of providing searches. Google is in the business of selling ads. It just happens that having the best search gives you more eyeballs on your ads.

      Depends how you look at it: they started providing search at a loss to them, then provided the best product, saw increased traffic and so sold more ads to break even, then make a profit. At the base level all businesses, in the long run, have to be in the business of making money, everything else subservient to that.

      > They leverage that advantage to gain share in other markets.

      How have they done that ? As far as I know the only link between Google Search and Google Chrome is the goodwill on the name encourages people to give Chrome a go. Quite different to using you OS to leverage other software or force PC makers to install your product.

      I agree with the rest of your post, and add that I think that without Firefox/Chrome MS would probably have done *no* updates to IE in recent years.

  69. Google is fighting a war that isn't being fought.. by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

    At least, not yet.

    IE5 at its time, was great compared to Netscape. MS has a lot of internal resources, many of which are currently working on the Windows Mobile 7 OS. When that task completes, they will move on.

    Right now the big allure is HTML5 support and some other things. The average internet user doesn't know what "Chrome" is, much less the Chrome plugin, and unless it's pre-installed on the OS, they won't EVER know. They just know that "E" on the desktop gives them internet.

    Keep in mind, there are still a LOT of people running IE6, Windows XP SP1, and other outdated software. They won't update any time soon, either, until their PC dies or is totally unusable. Google is hoping that their cloud services will be a great offering and replace what the desktop OS traditionally does, and they create a fast and neat browser that hooks into their services like Gears or Wave or whatever -- and guess what? Nobody is going to use it for a LONG TIME.

    HTML5 is still in draft stages, and it will likely be years before there's any progress made to confirm it. The video standard is still up in the air, so nobody knows anything yet on that front, and Google already 'supports' it. Well, they support their interpretation of it. I'm hoping for Ogg myself :)

    I have no doubt, that when push comes to shove and MS starts getting a real threat that makes a mark on their bottom line due to HTML5, or more adoption or education on consumers, they will make a paradigm shift. Who would have thought that the OS after Vista would come out so quickly, and be so great (Windows 7)? But they did it, and I have no doubt they will do it again with IE, and do it yet again with Windows Mobile. But that's the nice thing, Google in this fight makes it competitive, and competition is good for all of us as consumers.

    And I am typing this on Firefox, so go figure :)

    --
    The price is always right if someone else is paying.
  70. Stop talking about past versions of IE by malevolentjelly · · Score: 1

    Microsoft is talking about the security framework of IE 8 and they're absolutely correct. Bringing up IE 5 and IE 6 and IE's of times yore is completely irrelevant.

    This isn't about characterizing the Microsoft enterprise as some sort of individual and IE as some sort of character in a dramatic play. This sort of analysis is irrational when talking about security.

    We are talking about the current IE 8... and IE 8 is extremely secure as it is. I brought up this exact issue the other day because it is a relevant point-- how much can you safely strip from Google Chrome before its security model is irrelevant to the IE plugin model and you've created a new entry point?

    If you want Google Chrome, it would be more secure to simply run Google Chrome.

    Putting these two browsers together creates awkward new security situation that completely defeats features like antimalware and anti-XSS protecton where IE 8 excels.

    Take your fanboy hats for a moment and try to grasp that Microsoft is bringing up a valid point: if Google doesn't maintain this frame with the same level of resources they throw at Chrome, it will simply become an attack vector that neither Microsoft nor Google will be able to cover.

    1. Re:Stop talking about past versions of IE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh no, they're not. If IE8 actually sandboxed plugins properly, this would be a non issue.

      PS. Look what a dumbass! http://my.opera.com/malevolentjelly/blog/

    2. Re:Stop talking about past versions of IE by daveime · · Score: 1

      So what exactly is the point in installing a faster browser (as a plugin) into a browser you think is insecurely sandboxed.

      I know what will happen, just counting the days ... the first exploit for the Chrome I-Frame will come out, Microsoft will deny liability because the user is running a plugin they said was insecure, and Google will blame Microsoft for not habing a properly sandboxed environment for plugins to tun in.

      End result, Google gets their users surfing preference data for "not evil" purposes, Microsoft takes the blame, user still gets shafted, and no support from either side.

    3. Re:Stop talking about past versions of IE by HermMunster · · Score: 1

      This is utter bullshit. IE8 is in no way secure. Take it from someone that cleans malware off computers on a daily basis. IE8 is a waste of your time and energy. It is highly insecure and is such a problem that most malware authors don't even bat an eye.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
  71. Love to see Microsoft by al0ha · · Score: 1

    using tried and true business tactics. If you can't beat em; flame em. Oh Big Blue did it so well back in the day...

    --
    Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
  72. MS should drop IE, if they care about security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft should either drop IE, or deliver a browser with Canvas, SVG, a decent fast javascript implementation, and XHTML. This is the minimum I need to make my companies intranet pages work with it. For now, we have banned the use of IE. It is not a product I miss supporting, since it really was truly a compatibility nightmare. We will absolutely never go back to supporting any product sourced from a single vendor, which we can not easily migrate away from.
    The most expensive mistake in IT - vendor lockin.

    1. Re:MS should drop IE, if they care about security by daveime · · Score: 1

      Quick question ... why have you designed your company's intranet to use an element (canvas) from a standard (HTML5) that isn't agreed upon, and probably never will be ?

      So that in 10 years, when it's already out of date, and all browsers have defined their own incompatible versions of freeform rendering, you can blame Microsoft for sucking ?

  73. the real security equation by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

    Okay, so the real problem is people running an 'insecure' _platform_. This includes more than the browser. Now, IE8 running on an updated Vista or Win 7 machine is one thing, but earlier platforms are much more likely to have unpatched bugs in the OS, which seems like a much more serious security issue than Frame installed in IE, especially older versions of IE like 6, so this is really just classic MS misdirection. By not providing standards updates for IE 6, _knowing_ that many people can't/won't upgrade their OS to something that can handle IE >6, AND by not making newer versions of IE capable of running on OS versions older than XP, they have created this problem themselves. It's great that Google is stepping up to the plate. I can see why MS is desperate to use misdirection; they don't HAVE any other solution to the issue.

  74. Read the replies to the parent comment by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 1

    I generally stand by my assertion of FUD but it's worth noting that the replies and discussion below my original comment are interesting, correct technical inaccuracies and vagueness on my part and are generally important reading. Don't read my original comment on it's own. The replies by others should be modded up to at least the same level as my original comment but I can't do that myself.

    Weirdly, looking at those other comments, it seems like some people not only read TFA but also the previous one! Wonders never cease!

  75. IE 8 less secure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I find that IE 8 is less secure if I boot windows with a network connection.

    1. Re:IE 8 less secure? by daveime · · Score: 1

      Why, is someone on 10.0.*.* tring to hack you ? Kick his ass off the network then.

      I think you meant "Internet Connection" !

    2. Re:IE 8 less secure? by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Most people's network connection is their internet connection. Besides which, the internet is a network, so your pedantry fails.

      Also, "My DHCP host issues addresses in the 192.168.*.* range, you insensitive clod!"

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  76. MS knows their market? by a+still+small+voice · · Score: 1

    Most MS users I know don't know much about computers and have to trust somebody like MS to let them know what's safe and what's not. From that perspective, this sounds exactly like what MS should have done in this situation -- they're letting their users know it could be an issue. What's the big deal? It's like the automobile industry saying "don't run your car without oil" or something similar, which is pretty generally understood for cars in John Q's world, but much less understood for computers due to the "new-ness". Give it a hundred more years and John Q. will be saying "Yeah, don't put extra stuff on your computer that you don't need, it causes problems", and they'll probably be right, even that far out from now, lol =)

  77. haa ha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Someone came up with better software than Microsoft and they want to fend off that competition by calling it "Insecure."
    The pot calling the kettle black, some might say...

    Lets just not use flash either for the same reason, oh wait a minute, instead lets just not use Internet Explorer, Windows or anything Microsoft sell : Because it is inherently insecure by design.

  78. Hollow by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    This article is hollow and offers absolutely no proof positive that a Google plugin will cause IE 8 to be less secure. Microsoft is just up to its same old FUD tricks again. Microsoft is using generalities to scare people away from using anything Google related. They are not incorrect about plugins in general. In general, there is some risk for opening up a security hole when an add-on is made to a browser. That said, plugins written by Microsoft, Adobe, or others are not necessarily more secure. My guess is Google took some care in testing as much as is possible. Also, I wonder if the plugin is open source. If the source code is available for the plugins, should a security hole be discovered patches can be quickly released. It simply amazes me how most lay people will take what Microsoft (or any other corporation, for that matter) says as gospel. When a corporation makes a press release, it does so not to be altruistic but to better its own position in front of both the public and investors. The propaganda is convincing for the less knowledgeable. My advice to the laymen is to think about what ulterior motives may be hidden in a press release before taking it as gospel.

    1. Re:Hollow by daveime · · Score: 1

      If the source code is available for the plugins, should a security hole be discovered patches can be quickly released

      It could also be argued that because it is open source, a security hole is easier to find in the first place.

      Patches being released more quickly doesn't guarantee the user will actually apply them. Or will it be automatic *cough* like Firefox, that upgrades itself seemingly every damn day, and then makes me wait 5 minutes before I can browse to "update all the plugins" .. assuming of course it doesn't crash in the process ?

    2. Re:Hollow by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Or will it be automatic *cough* like Firefox, that upgrades itself seemingly every damn day, and then makes me wait 5 minutes before I can browse to "update all the plugins"

      Yeah, the NoScript update cycle is a little ridiculous.

      Oh wait, that's just an add-on. You know you can disable automatic updates for the add-ons, right? Then update them manually, say, once a week, if you're more amenable to that frequency.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  79. MICROSOFT says someone else's rengine is insecure? by argent · · Score: 1

    Um, the Microsoft HTML control has been the biggest security hole on the Internet since 1997.

    They have big brass ones to complain about anyone else's.

  80. I smell shit by HermMunster · · Score: 1

    Those comments are full of it. The least secure browser is IE. The least compliant browser is IE. Creating a substitute for users is a good thing. It brings choice. If they could complain about Chrome running in IE then they could make claims about Chrome outright. Greater standards compliance brings greater security and accelerates development of products that are OS independent, which creates opportunities outside of monopolistic practices.

    --
    You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
  81. borrowing Dick Cheney campaign tactic by peter303 · · Score: 1

    If you cant beat it on quality, you try emotion.

  82. hah ha ha ha ah ah by freedomseven · · Score: 1

    wahhhh hah ha ha ha ugh ugh

    lol lol
      rofl

    c a n ' t b r e a t h

    ugh ugh ugh

    Less Secure

    wah ha ha ha ha ha

    omg

    please ... call ... a ... medic

    ______________________________ (flat line)

  83. Clear option by fox171171 · · Score: 1

    Google Chrome Frame running as a plugin has doubled the attack area for malware and malicious scripts.

    So clearly to avoid the doubling of attack vectors, one should avoid IE altogether and just use Chrome. Or Firefox. :)

  84. Friends don't let friends use IE. by fox171171 · · Score: 1

    "This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take."

    Friends don't let friends use IE.

  85. History Lesson by Shotgun · · Score: 1

    This harkens back to the early years of a previous decade, when a much younger Microsoft used this same tactic to scare people off of a nascent competitor, DR DOS.

    These young bumpkins that have taken over the company must have been reading up on their predecessors.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  86. Similarly... by KrimZon · · Score: 1

    Similarly, not wearing a helmet makes jumping off a cliff less safe.

    (Clip is a sketch from That Mitchell and Webb Look)

  87. More numbers... by clemenstimpler · · Score: 1

    ebay.com:----------253 errors
    digg.com:----------371 errors, 285 warnings
    reddit.com:--------Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional

  88. ie8 less secure? by gnatsstang5 · · Score: 1

    So. Let me get this straight. Chrome plug-in = X2 less secure. So for the last like 10 years every plug-in Ive used makes my IE less secure.... 1 Plug-in = x2 Do 2 plug-ins = x3 or x4? 3 plug-ins = x4 or x16? Let me know...

  89. What's less secure... by Samah · · Score: 1

    What's less secure than nothing? ;)

    --
    Homonyms are fun!
    You're driving your car, but they're riding their bikes there.
  90. With jokes like that... by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    With jokes like these, Microsoft and IE really aren't worth complying about :)

  91. Bad chair day in Redmond by foxylad · · Score: 1

    Ballmer has got to be furious. He's getting out-flanked on all sides.

    • Google effectively gutting IE, the keystone of MS's internet presence. Chrome Frame is compelling enough to be widely installed, and suddenly MS has lost control of another big chunk of internet users.
    • A surge of low cost netbooks based on ARM coming next year, that CAN'T run Windows even if MS could swing a back-room deal with the manufacturers. Leads to significantly reduced sales to consumers, directly reducing revenue.
    • Silverlight getting severe setbacks in a market already dominated by Flash, and HTML5 waiting in the wings. Fond hopes of controlling the RIA space receding fast.
    • Being forced to bring out Office as a web app. Damned if they do it well (cannibalises desktop Office sales), damned if if they don't (Google cleans up with Google Apps).
    • Becoming irrelevant in the mobile space - Iphone of course, but a flood of Android devices about to mop up the rest of the market.

    MS still have their huge corporate market, but they're rapidly losing their grip on the consumer. Historically where consumers go, corporates follow... like the PC that put MS where is is now.

    --
    Do as you would be done to.
  92. So Add-ons are only good for toolbars and WebEx? by gig · · Score: 1

    The stupid thing here is there are many Add-ons for IE that do ridiculously unproductive things, and that's all fine with Microsoft. But then Google releases one that is actually useful, that doubles the speed of Web browsing in IE, and Microsoft is against that.

    > This is not a risk we would recommend our friends and families take.

    Weak! I wouldn't recommend you let your dog run IE.

    Lame response from Microsoft as usual.

  93. Accurate assessment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Adding anything to your browser increases the attack surface area. They are not bullshitting you. It's 100% true.

    Of course, the better solution is to just use Google Chrome, or anything else not IE.

  94. It's impossible to make it even less secure. by anton_kg · · Score: 1

    What are you talking about?..

  95. Rubbish! by Aerospike · · Score: 1

    A browser is only as secure as the most insecure plug-in it allows to be installed.

  96. Google OS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't wait to install Google OS Frame on windows.

  97. pos browser anyway by Toddimus · · Score: 1

    IE 8.0 is a POS browser to begin with.. I can't count how many times working computer help desk that we have had to have users uninstall it because it simply does not work 80 percent of the time on most of our applications.

  98. Re:So Add-ons are only good for toolbars and WebEx by HermMunster · · Score: 1

    Thank goodness there are so few Microsoft friends and family for them to influence. Seriously, how many people do they think their "friends and family" consist of? If the rest of the world recommends this why would Microsoft's voice have any bearing at all?

    --
    You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.