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New Phoenix BIOS Starts Windows 7 Boot In 1 Second

suraj.sun excerpts from a tantalizing Engadget post: "Phoenix is showing off a few interesting things at IDF, but the real standout is their new Instant Boot BIOS [video here], a highly optimized UEFI implementation that can start loading an OS in just under a second. Combined with Windows 7's optimized startup procedure, that means you're looking at incredibly short boot times — we saw a retrofitted Dell Adamo hit the Windows desktop in 20 seconds, while a Lenovo T400s with a fast SSD got there in under 10."

437 comments

  1. BIOS by sopssa · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That is indeed really fast boot to desktop. I like it how it shows the Windows loading screen almost immediatly too.

    This also brings a new friend for F5 hitting. To get to the bios menu you'll be smashing F12 as fast as you can during boot.

    But the article is a little low on details of optimizations. As I've understood, BIOS isn't really that complicated nor does it do any heavy calculations. It basically just brings hardware up and tests it, which takes most of the time (not that the 5-6 seconds is so long wait anyway). So have they optimized something else, or are they just skipping those tests?

    1. Re:BIOS by gmack · · Score: 3, Funny

      I wonder when they will get around to to doing this on servers. I have some that are pushing 5 minutes before the OS even loads.

    2. Re:BIOS by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Informative

      Could be a while. Given how infrequently most servers are rebooted, and how having at least a backup, better a hot spare, or better still on-line redundancy for servers you actually care about is fairly standard, there probably isn't nearly as much demand.

      Also, I suspect, more of the server delays have to do with real needs(notably staggered spin-up of drive arrays) or coordination issues between vendors(your server manufacturer can't do much about how much time a 3rd party RAID controller's option ROM decides to waste once it takes over, and even integrated controllers are usually just 3rd party stuff with some degree of rebadge).

      You'll probably actually see fast boot sooner in the cheap seats, which are much more likely to just be a basic business box relabeled as a "pedestal server" or reboxed as a cheap 1/2U and will thus be able to borrow the fast boot stuff directly from the consumer lines. That is also where servers are much less likely to be backed by any serious redundancy, which would make coming up quickly more of a selling point.

    3. Re:BIOS by WoLpH · · Score: 3, Insightful

      5? WIth a nice raidcard, full memory check and some other POST tests I've seen them easily go over 10 minutes. Some were definately close to 15 minutes from my experiences.

      The question here is, what will you trade for this? Faster boot probably means something will be skipped.

    4. Re:BIOS by Xest · · Score: 1

      That's because you don't want a server to just gloss over and ignore the fact your RAID array is fucked and data is being sent to oblivion and that sort of thing.

      It doesn't take a long time just for the sake of taking a long time, it takes a long time to make sure everything is correct as it should be.

      How often do you reboot your servers anyway? It shouldn't be more than a few times a year at most.

    5. Re:BIOS by UnHolier+than+ever · · Score: 1

      Is it just me, or are these boot times no better than what was usual until winXP started to take 2 minutes to boot? Or have I just become officially old by using "You know, back in my days....."?

    6. Re:BIOS by Jared555 · · Score: 1

      Unless you design it to do multiple tasks in parallel, instead of sequentially. Then it doesn't matter how many checks you add as long as adding them doesn't significantly slow down the others.

    7. Re:BIOS by dolphinling · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's not really all that fast. With coreboot there's an option to flash a kernel directly to your bios chip, and skip bios and bootloader entirely. Makes kernel upgrades a pain, of course, but they got wall time from poweron to a working linux shell down to three seconds.

      --
      There are 11 types of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.
    8. Re:BIOS by arndawg · · Score: 1

      That's because you don't want a server to just gloss over and ignore the fact your RAID array is fucked and data is being sent to oblivion and that sort of thing.

      It doesn't take a long time just for the sake of taking a long time, it takes a long time to make sure everything is correct as it should be.

      How often do you reboot your servers anyway? It shouldn't be more than a few times a year at most.

      Patch tuesday. : So a few reboots a year = b.S Also i compile new linux kernel i cron && reboot.

    9. Re:BIOS by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm sure that there is some slack in the process, largely because POST times aren't a huge point of competition; but, until SSDs take over, there will be real physical limits on how much parallelizing you can do.

      With HDDs, especially the very fast ones, spin-up current is substantially higher than operating current. If you have a bunch of them in the same place, you either have to massively overspec the 12volt rail, or just stagger the spin-ups and do them in batches. Each drive can only spin up so fast, and you can only be sure they are all working after they have all spun up.

    10. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      New BIOSs are UEFI.

      As much as they don't like to say it, UEFI is basically an operating system. UEFI supports byte code applications (that's right). It has a driver framework and drivers for many of your devices, a TCP/IP stack, etc...

      I think that's a good question about how you enter setup. If you can through keypresses, that time is too short to include keyboard initialization I would think. Since this is a laptop, they would be using their own keyboard firmware and they cheat. So it probably wouldn't work on a desktop or with an external keyboard.

      I haven't looked into details into their optimizations either, but I would assume, yes, they are skipping a lot of things. This is on a laptop, so they probably just assume fixed hardware. Many things which are detected are probably just saved.

      I doubt you would be able to boot from USB or CD with that set up, since those devices are not initialized.

      Intel have a document about the breakdown on UEFI BIOS boot time: http://edc.intel.com/Link.aspx?id=1039

      Out of interest, just having to change video modes to show the BIOS screen can be a couple seconds.

    11. Re:BIOS by __aamnbm3774 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Computers are lightning fast compare to a few years ago, there should be no need to 'poll hardware, wait 3 seconds, test next piece of hardware'.

      If properly parallelized and you remove all the pointless Waits, a BIOS check should be damn-near close to immediate and still manage to check everything.

      BIOS writers probably figured, eh, so what if it takes 10 seconds or so, thats still pretty quick, and never rewrote their crappy legacy code.

    12. Re:BIOS by RichardJenkins · · Score: 1

      Simple, just use a desktop machine for all your serving needs.

    13. Re:BIOS by TheLink · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually you'd think most people would want servers that are infrequently rebooted to come back up really fast.

      But yeah, you can't spin up that many drives at once. I've heard a server where the drives were making up and down "pitch" changes during boot up... Not good :).

      --
    14. Re:BIOS by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      The problem with BIOS is that right now you don't even _need_ it in Linux and Windows. Linux/Windows have their own device drivers, so BIOS is not necessary.

      If I made this notebook, then I'll first check that 'Control' key is pressed (using hardcoded codepaths) and if it's depressed then jump directly into the bootloader, skipping device initialization (apart from hard drive and memory controllers, of course, but they usually are pretty fast).

      If 'Control' key is pressed, then I'd just do a normal BIOS startup routine.

    15. Re:BIOS by pjr.cc · · Score: 1

      Personally, on the server side, i remember the top end of sun's line back in its peek (from the e250, e450 all the way of to the e10k, the e25k, and the sunfire range)

      5 minutes would have been a blessing on those machines.

    16. Re:BIOS by grub · · Score: 1

      That's probably with hardware RAID, etc. loading up, right?

      I don't get the endless fascination with boot times. How often does a person reboot? My desktop box at work has been up 22 days (power failure caused that.) Many servers for months and months.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    17. Re:BIOS by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Thank goodness they actually scan the hardware instead of just dumping the OS into memory.

      Besides, how often are you rebooting these servers of yours?

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    18. Re:BIOS by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Also, it should be possible to embed Linux kernel image directly into EFI working memory (which is structured as a partition on a hard drive) and jump directly into it as early as possible and then do hard drive initialization in parallel with other devices.

      Though we won't save that much time with new SSD drives.

    19. Re:BIOS by grub · · Score: 1


      If properly parallelized and you remove all the pointless Waits, a BIOS check should be damn-near close to immediate and still manage to check everything.

      Ever run a server with RAID? Most RAID cards can stagger drive spin-up so as not to overtax the power supply. That in itself can take some time.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    20. Re:BIOS by __aamnbm3774 · · Score: 1

      I don't think the Lenovo mentioned in the article was running a full SAN with 100 drives. Way to compare apples to oranges.

    21. Re:BIOS by gmack · · Score: 1

      Servers get rebooted a lot during setup or when something goes wrong.

      Take your average Dell server for instance: setup raid controller then reboot. Setup DRAC card then reboot again. That's two reboots before I am even installing the OS.

      Last month I had a third party addon for Linux Lock the machine solid(thanks Dell). Boot.. locks again. Reboot into single mode to remove addon start scripts. Reboot.. missed a script. Reboot into single mode.. etc etc etc
      When it's all up and running make sure the other rc scripts are back in place and reboot again just so I know there isn't a surprise waiting for me the next time I need to work on the server.

      The problem isn't outage it's admin time staring at a booting machine.

    22. Re:BIOS by gmack · · Score: 1

      The sad thing is that on a lower end server equipped with SAS drives drive spinup times are not the primary problem.

      Most of the time I spend waiting is for each add in card to post and then prompt me to see if I want to configure something.

    23. Re:BIOS by afidel · · Score: 1

      Those must have been IBM's. I'm annoyed by the increased boot times from the HP G5 line to the G6 line, but they still boot in well under 5 minutes (we page if a server is down 5 minutes). Since the memory tests are not likely to catch anything (memtest86+ can take hours or days to catch anything) they don't need to rigorous and with modern BIOS code they can be divied up per core. HDD's can be spun up in bunches rather than sequentially (you have a 400-1000W PSU, use it!), etc.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    24. Re:BIOS by clone53421 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nah. I'd tend to agree with GP. If you're a critical service, you want on-line redundancy, so you roll over immediately and it doesn't matter how long the second server takes to reboot. If you're not critical and you don't have redundant servers, 5 minutes of down-time probably isn't much worse than 1... you just have to schedule it at an off-peak time.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    25. Re:BIOS by CoFran · · Score: 1

      your ServeRAID or Smart Array has its own BIOS to load and memory to scan anyway, making the MB BIOS faster won't change that..

    26. Re:BIOS by GravityStar · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is just you. My Pentium 90 took something like 20-30 seconds to boot to the DOS prompt. Anecdotal, true, but it's nice to remind yourself that even booting into DOS was by no means instantaneous.

      I don't think I have a point beyond that. Sorry, carry on about those days. Was it something about marching up hill in the snow?

    27. Re:BIOS by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Every day, sometimes more than one time per day. Why would I leave it on during the night, if it's not doing anything? (my download box is my router),

    28. Re:BIOS by pjr.cc · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, how often it boots and fast it boots are often small considerations - depending on where you sit.

      Consider a file server that crashes and reboots twice a year and takes 5 minutes to come back up... thats 99.998% availability and from an infrastructure perspective thats pretty dang awesome.
      From a helpdesk point of view, they'll suffer one heck of a beeting everytime it goes down and that'll be all they remember of the server.
      Same goes for the users, all they'll remember is the 5 minutes it went down when half the company was doing something important.

      Consider active directory though (or any kind of multi-master replicated service) - again, your talking about a server thats really not doing anything terribly difficult, but unlike the file server if it goes down no ones likely to notice. On top of that your often more concerned that the server will come up working then how quickly.

      As for noise, well the good ol e450 from sun fully stacked with 20 15k disks (not to mention its in-built fans) used to make very amusing noises as it came up and some of the time it went down was because the disks managed to disconnect from the backplane (and you could hear the difference if you were around it during a boot often enough) - a good hard whack and it was sorted. Wondefull little machines those

    29. Re:BIOS by solaraddict · · Score: 1

      Much like "flammable" and "inflammable", "pressed" and "depressed" are synonymous in this context.

    30. Re:BIOS by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Wow, the more things change the more they stay the same. I remember people swapping out kickstart chips on their Amiga to upgrade from OS1.3 to 2.0

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    31. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how would you know a keyboard is present without a device driver in order to Control Key?

    32. Re:BIOS by jspenguin1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have a server here that take 65 seconds to even show the BIOS screen. It takes another 60 seconds to even start the bootloader. Sometimes it feels like the extraterrestrial object it's named after is going to burn out before the thing boots.

    33. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What did this have to do with the post you replied to?

    34. Re:BIOS by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      No reason why not. If it has an ExpressCard slot it can be connected to an array of disks and one or more of those may contain things required for boot.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    35. Re:BIOS by grub · · Score: 3, Funny

      You have a computer that's not doing anything?

      Weirdo!

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    36. Re:BIOS by Havokmon · · Score: 1

      You'll probably actually see fast boot sooner in the cheap seats, which are much more likely to just be a basic business box relabeled as a "pedestal server" or reboxed as a cheap 1/2U and will thus be able to borrow the fast boot stuff directly from the consumer lines. That is also where servers are much less likely to be backed by any serious redundancy, which would make coming up quickly more of a selling point.

      I don't kow that I'd agree with that, but it's a frame of mind. For example, I use 'consumer grade' systems for servers for multiple reasons. They're cheaper, they use less power (especially when I choose a low power cpu), they're more 'standard'. ("standard", as I discovered once HP or Dell servers required a particular firmware for scsi drives to work - PITA) Because of that, I can easily and cheaply put up multiple boxes for redundancy and load blancing.

      --
      "I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
    37. Re:BIOS by Schnoogs · · Score: 0

      Oh please....it takes my current machine 20-30 seconds. You're telling me 1 second isn't fast? Someone get this guy the cynic of the year award. You remind me of that joke about the guy who is given a free steak, glass of scotch, a cigar and sex with a super model and all the guy does is complain he doesn't smoke.

    38. Re:BIOS by RulerOf · · Score: 1

      That made me wonder... I've been thinking about flashing coreboot onto one of the supported boards that I have as it kinda looks like fun.

      Would you achieve a similar 1-3 second POST using Coreboot -> SeaBIOS (I think) to load Windows?

      --
      Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
    39. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Who the hell is moderating all the posts in this thread "Funny"? Mods are on crack today...

    40. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HP did this with their laptops.

      My USB flash drive can't boot on any of the compaq 6710s or 8710s, because it doesn't enumerate the drive before it gives up and goes to the next boot option (my personally worst annoyance at BIOSes these days- I specifically picked a bootup option, why would you try it, AND THEN GO TO ANOTHER ONE?)

    41. Re:BIOS by poetmatt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not really, the magic is in the wording. "Start loading the OS within 1 second" means it's just bypassing a whole lot of the network checks. The average BIOS starts loading the OS within about 1.5 seconds, so this isn't exactly a huge difference.

      This isn't even a windows thing or a linux thing, as it's strictly about how fast the bios passes to loading the OS from the hard drive.

    42. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a T400 with an intel X25-E and can vouch for the speed. Love it. Worth the extra $$ compared to the overall cost of the laptop.

    43. Re:BIOS by kimvette · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're not going to get that kind of uptime from a Windows box even without problems, thanks to patch tuesdays. Of course, it depends on how downtime is defined. If you use Microsoft's definition, "scheduled maintenance windows" are not classified as down time, but the rest of the world defines such things as down time. This is how they skewed the numbers to get such high uptime statistics for their "get the FUD" campaign.

      without redefining down time like Microsoft does, you will never achieve that kind of uptime on Windows unless a) the box NEVER get infected b) you NEVER install the Windows updates and c) you NEVER change the configuration or change/update any software.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    44. Re:BIOS by clone53421 · · Score: 2, Informative

      1 second isn't the boot to desktop time, it's the time needed for the BIOS before transferring control to the OS. How long the OS takes to get to the desktop is a separate concern.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    45. Re:BIOS by charlesnw · · Score: 1

      Yep. I would love to see those optimizations in servers as well.

      Not sure why your post got modded funny. It's quite true, and most certainly not funny.

      --
      Charles Wyble System Engineer
    46. Re:BIOS by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > My Pentium 90 took something like 20-30 seconds to boot to the DOS prompt.

      Yeah, that was a bad era for BIOSes.

      My ITT XTRA (an 8086-based system that I think ran at 4.77 MHz) could boot to a DOS prompt in under thirty seconds even when loading the OS from a 360K floppy, with a bunch of mostly unnecessary junk in config.sys and autoexec.bat.

      Of course, the BIOS had less hardware initialization to do back then. Your Pentium 90 probably had to deal with Plug-and-Pray, among other things.

      Also, the XTRA was made in the days before CMOS-based firmware, so the BIOS was actually hardwired. I'm not sure if that really has any technical relevance for its loading speed, but I strongly suspect it motivated simpler and more efficient BIOS code.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    47. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that we all have that 3 extra seconds before we see the hard disk moving, I would expect we'd all have time to address some of the more profound issues facing civilization.

      If you look closely, you'll note that the F5 key on his keyboard appears loose.

    48. Re:BIOS by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I have a couple SCSI arrays that take an awful lot longer to boot than the BIOS, which was around 70 days ago on the most recent one because of installing a new DVD burner.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    49. Re:BIOS by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      They'll probably do what macs have done for a while. The key must not be pressed when you see the EFI screen, but instead, held down as you push power.

    50. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love your comment, but please, PLEASE, learn when to use "your" and "you're" and apostrophes and basic grade-school punctuation. That was absolutely painful to read.

    51. Re:BIOS by Xest · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you actually read the patches that come along on patch Tuesday or do you just mindlessly install them?

      If you did the former, you'd see you don't actually need to install them and reboot every Tuesday, you could simply queue them up until there's a critical patch. Some you don't even need to install at all, if there's a critical flaw in IIS but you haven't got the IIS service enabled and never intend to, it's not worth rebooting the server over.

      You're making the mistake a lot of bad admins make- assuming you need to install the latest and greatest the second it's there. You don't, you only need to install patches to fix issues you're having or to fix security flaws that actually effect you. Yes this means you actually need to understand security and be able to judge whether a particular security flaw is exploitable in your situation or not.

      Regardless, what it comes down to is this, if you're having to reboot your servers more than a few times a year then you're not running a network as well as an IT professional really should do.

    52. Re:BIOS by operagost · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When making claims for availability as a service provider, scheduled maintenance is NOT counted in "the nines". You are making a guarantee of reliability, not uptime per se.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    53. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If YOU control your network, that is, employees are not allowed to install non-approved 3rd party apps on their machines, and there is a good hardware firewall layer between your servers and the real world, then there is no need to patch every patch Tuesday. Policies regarding what the users can do control what accesses the machine from inside, the firewall controls what accesses it form outside. If you are running a local SUS server, and if you have a network you really should be, then you should be able to go months between "patchfests" where you bring the system up to date in the middle of the night on a holiday weekend or something. Having the local update server means that you are not a slave to network speeds or the speed of MS's update servers when you do decide you can afford the downtime.

    54. Re:BIOS by kimvette · · Score: 1

      It would be really nice if even server boards could boot this quickly. Now, there is no getting around staggered drive spinups and RAID enumeration at bootup but there is a lot of unnecessary delay that make servers boot really slow.

      Add in workstation boards to the mix (which are basically server-class boards with no on-board video, but with on-board audio and graphics adapter slots) and there is an even more compelling reason to make "server" boards boot more quickly.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    55. Re:BIOS by pehrs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funny. I know a network that ran just like that. In a hospital. Tightly controlled environment, mostly vendor approved windows NT4 and 2000 systems, no internet connection except for a very agressive proxy that filtered stuff. Heavy firewalling. Patching every half a year or so. Worked like a charm.

      Until the day a contractor upgraded a server for the MRI system using his work laptop. The radiology department was offline for nearly a week while they sorted out the mess. :(

    56. Re:BIOS by arndawg · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry but that's nonsense. Update stage servers, test, and then patch production servers. I have had no problems the last 5 years with this method. And a reboot doesn't mean service-downtime. If it does for you, you're doing it wrong.

    57. Re:BIOS by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      It does still seam workable. With all the disks having smart controllers, maybe someone should come up with a bios spin up timer. IE you power-up all the hard disk controllers, windows/etc can then see the hardware. The bios gives each a spin-up time-slot, the ones with the OS get a immediate boot, the others can be spinning up while the OS boots...

    58. Re:BIOS by DamonHD · · Score: 1

      I'm about halfway through moving my main server onto a SheevaPlug: a fairly stock Linux (2.6.31) with three lots of solid-state (flash) storage totalling ~160GB: it boots in ~30s (I just timed it 5 minutes ago).

      Rgds

      Damon

      PS. It only consumes 2.5W when quiet, and runs entirely from off-grid solar power: http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-SheevaPlug-setup.html

      PPS. Yes, I know it's not Windows and it's not 1s, but we don't have to live with 20-minute reboot times these days...

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
    59. Re:BIOS by CaptSlaq · · Score: 1

      Computers are lightning fast compare to a few years ago, there should be no need to 'poll hardware, wait 3 seconds, test next piece of hardware'. If properly parallelized and you remove all the pointless Waits, a BIOS check should be damn-near close to immediate and still manage to check everything. BIOS writers probably figured, eh, so what if it takes 10 seconds or so, thats still pretty quick, and never rewrote their crappy legacy code.

      "Don't fix what's not borked". The incremental gain vs potential stupidity is marginal at best. The majority of boot time for the desktops is in the OS, the majority of it for servers have been discussed in other posts.

    60. Re:BIOS by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      This also brings a new friend for F5 hitting. To get to the bios menu you'll be smashing F12 as fast as you can during boot.

      Or F2. Or DEL. Or INS. Or whatever other key you have to hit to enter the setup or boot menu.

      It's kinda frustrating really - would it really hurt for manufacturers to either tell you in the manual what keys to hit, or to display that information sooner? The modern trend in BIOSes is to display the splash screen, do initializations, then at the very last moment, flash the keys you need to get into the BIOS or boot menu. If you aren't looking at the screen at the right time or right place, you'll miss it and have to boot it again.

      Is it too much to ask to show it as part of the splash screen so I know what I can hit and prepare to hit it?

    61. Re:BIOS by __aamnbm3774 · · Score: 1

      hah, i don't disagree with you there!

    62. Re:BIOS by Xest · · Score: 1

      So why do you care about slow reboots being an issue if you're running high availability systems with fallback in the first place? The parent was complaining about slow reboots, the only reason they would be an issue is if you don't have any kind of setup to keep services up whilst one or more servers are down. Or did you not read the whole thread and simply took my comment out of context?

      Not everywhere can afford redundant systems, and not every management team will authorise it which is presumably why the parent had an issue with slow reboots in the first place, else as I say, if they did then they wouldn't care about slow reboots to start with.

      I'm still not sure why you think it's nonsense to patch when you need to patch either, rather than patching for patchings sake. It's basic common sense - especially as you can't guarantee a test on a stage server will be in anyway guaranteed to weed out any issues, but as I say the difference is it does require an admin to understand what the patches actually mean rather than simply assume that all patches should just go on without question. The distinction is important because an admin who understands what patch notes mean is also an admin that can foresee any issues or incompatibilities the patch might cause elsewhere.

    63. Re:BIOS by sexconker · · Score: 1

      From a helpdesk point of view, they'll suffer one heck of a beeting everytime it goes down.

      In may day we threw onions. Onions we tied to our belts, which was the style at the time. They didn't have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones.

    64. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I noticed an increased delay on my own computer due to additional hardware. I could be at a useable desktop in under 30 seconds. When I had a raid controller even without any drives, it easily added another 30 seconds to that.

    65. Re:BIOS by clone53421 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your current machine takes 20-30 seconds merely to do the BIOS startup?

      The guy you were replying to was referring to a desktop boot, with the kernel loaded into the BIOS. You didn't specifically say, but I assumed.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    66. Re:BIOS by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      Buy a used PowerPC Mac.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    67. Re:BIOS by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      So you won't have to wait until it has booted the next morning. :)

    68. Re:BIOS by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      As far as i know, IIS patches will not require a reboot or won't even be found as "has to be applied" if you're not using IIS.

      And then, there's basically something every patch tuesday which you need. Yeah, you might not need 5 out of 6 patches, but the sixt one might apply, so you just go and install all of them.

    69. Re:BIOS by MrNemesis · · Score: 1

      Modded funy but, oh god, if you're trying to do anything with one of these servers it's a NIGHTMARE!

      We have a bunch of IBM x3650's at work which take an utter aeon to boot. Memory checking (before you get to POST) takes between 2 and three minutes, depending on how much memory there is in the machine. POST takes about five seconds. Then we have to wait for the onboard NICs to do their "do you want to configure my boot ROM?" thing (despite the fact it's disabled in BIOS). Then it takes three minutes (!) for the onboard ServeRAID to initialise - and if we're talking about one of the boxes with an external SAS array, we usually have to wait another minute for the LSI RAID cards to initialise. But the MOST frustrating thing is waiting for POST - you get three minutes of a black screen, and then a five second window (minus, say, a second for the monitor to wake itself up) to press the correct F key to go into the BIOS or boot from USB or whatever... and if you miss that window, you get to do the vulcan nerve pinch and spend ANOTHER three minutes staring at a blank monitor.

      People may joke about servers never needing to be rebooted, but they do. And when you're standing in front of the machine trying to do some maintenance (we've had some awful, awful problems with RAID firmwares which have necessitated multiple firmware flashes, and thus reboots), shit like having to wait ten minutes before the OS even begins to load is the sort of bullshit than can turn a "problem no-one noticed" into a major incident. When some intern knocks out the power cables, I don't want the server standing around with the IS dept's balls in a vice because "boot time isn't important", it should be just as big a priority to get server boot times down to a bare minimum as it is to get small boot times on the tiniest, most superficially trendy netnotnitnutnatbooktop.

      Rant!

      Anyway, fast boots are always good, as long as reliability isn't sacrificed whilst doing so - I'm slavering at the idea of something like EFI replacing the appallingly stone-aged PC BIOS. I'm lucky enough to have LinuxBIOS/coreboot on one of my (ancient) motherboards at home and it's awesome to go from power on to booting within a few seconds.

      --
      Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
    70. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's still slower than a 1Mhz Commodore 64.

    71. Re:BIOS by lukas84 · · Score: 1

      My ThinkPad W500 has about 8 seconds from pressing the power button to booting Windows.

      Luckily it doesn't do that when coming up from standby.

    72. Re:BIOS by IntlHarvester · · Score: 1

      It is just you. My Pentium 90 took something like 20-30 seconds to boot to the DOS prompt. Anecdotal, true, but it's nice to remind yourself that even booting into DOS was by no means instantaneous

      Yeah, I have a P-133 where the "memory count" effect (complete with whirring noises) takes at least a minute to get through the 128MB of RAM. :/ Plus there's two SCSI cards in the machine.

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
    73. Re:BIOS by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      My ubuntu 9.04 laptop (asus c90) takes about the same, actually. It's damned faster than it used to be.

    74. Re:BIOS by dmmiller2k · · Score: 1

      How often does a person reboot?

      Good question. I don't reboot much anymore, but during college? Whew! That was a whole 'nother story.

      Now, I figure I probably go an entire month or more straight without rebooting.

      Which is way more than I can say for any of our computers.

      --

      "No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up." -- Lily Tomlin

    75. Re:BIOS by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      ...they'll suffer one heck of a beeting everytime

      That sounds both painful and distasteful.

    76. Re:BIOS by skelly33 · · Score: 1

      ...As I've understood, BIOS isn't really that complicated nor does it do any heavy calculations. It basically just brings hardware up and tests it, which takes most of the time (not that the 5-6 seconds is so long wait anyway)...

      In my time as a PC BIOS developer I can attest that indeed there are no heavy calculations, however there are some heavy hardware polling loops. It's a decision of the BIOS vendor whether to adhere to strict specification compliance or to optimize based on observation. Strict compliance means allowing up to 90 seconds for every ATA device to respond to identity operations - if there is no ATA drive present, you MUST wait the full 90 seconds to guarantee that no ATA-compliant drive is going to surprise you with a latent response. It's in the ATA spec.

      But observations repeatedly show that no modern drive worth its weight in salt takes anywhere near that long to respond - normally if you don't get a response in a few milliseconds, then the deal's off. There are any number of specifications like this that a BIOS vendor may want to comply with for backward compatibility which will add to the polling cycles which we see as needless delays. Sometimes a BIOS vendor will want to allow for 2-3 seconds per device and poll them all in parallel so that the total polling period is only 2-3 seconds - it's a compromise between worst case scenario observations for what the vendor is prepared to support and what the spec calls for.

      In this case, it seems, the new BIOS takes a no mercy approach. I can tell you from specific first hand experience that cutting the ATA polling cycle as they have to accomplish this will prevent certain older devices from working as boot disks with this BIOS. But clearly that is an acceptable situation for a system that is forward looking and not concerned with backward compatibility.

    77. Re:BIOS by Mattsson · · Score: 1

      How long from poweron to a fully working X environment with Gnome or KDE?

      --
      /.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
    78. Re:BIOS by ryanov · · Score: 1

      This is something I know Sun is already working on.

    79. Re:BIOS by ryanov · · Score: 1

      setenv diag-level min
      setenv diag-switch? false

    80. Re:BIOS by Sandbags · · Score: 1

      From cold start, flushing ECC RAM, spinning up multiple disks in 2 second intervals, and performing server centric preboot diagnostics on much deeper levels than a generic PC, you're going to have a hard time getting that to be faster.

      Disk spin up is needed to keep the power supply in check. RAID controllers have to load firmware and check RAID headers and perform disk health checks. You're certainly not going to let a critical server run on unvalidated RAM, this simply takes time. 5min may be a little extreme, but 2-3 minutes for spin up and system check is compeltely normal, especially if were talking 16+GB of RAM.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    81. Re:BIOS by Sandbags · · Score: 2, Interesting

      1) anything considdered a Tier 2 or business critical app should be a cluster, load balanced system, or simply be highly available with no single point of failure (switching, cabling, power and all for Tier 1 systems). Further, a cluster is never less than 3 of a kind, so when 1 is reboothing, high availability is maintained, so reboot time should be irrelevent.

      2) Reboots for patches should be done during maintenance windows, scheduled, and thus should never interfere with user operations. If it needs to be up 24x7, see #1.

      3) we have servers here that take 10-15 minutes to go DOWN. In nearly all cases, shutting down for a graceful reboot takes LONGER than coming up...

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    82. Re:BIOS by TheLink · · Score: 1

      In most cases you won't get that kind of uptime from a Linux box either if you bother with every kernel update, since you have to reboot for the kernel update to take effect. Recently this has changed with ksplice - but looking at the changelog, I'm not sure if you would want to trust your production systems with it just yet.

      If you really wanted that sort of uptime you would be running something like OpenVMS or Tandem. Those sort of systems can have uptimes of _decades_.

      Turns out, in the real world, nobody really cared that much... I figure by the time people start caring again, vmware and gang would have kind of reinvented the wheel again ;).

      --
    83. Re:BIOS by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Oh yes it is. Uptime is "up and running." Downtime is "not running." If your operating system update needs to reboot the computer, you can either reboot a cpu at a time, or you can redesign the update.

      Power supply conked out? No matter. Take it out, let the system run on the spare, and put the replacement in. CPU died? Call up IBM, have them activate the spare.

    84. Re:BIOS by adisakp · · Score: 1

      As I've understood, BIOS isn't really that complicated nor does it do any heavy calculations. It basically just brings hardware up and tests it, which takes most of the time (not that the 5-6 seconds is so long wait anyway). So have they optimized something else, or are they just skipping those tests?

      I have a fairly high-end QuadCore and the BIOS takes 37 seconds before it begins loading Windows. Some time is spent on the Intel RAID BIOS, some on the manufacturer splash screen, etc. I have as many tests turned off as I can and I have the HD pre-delay set to 0 seconds since I use SSD's.

      FWIW, Windows Vista loads in about 11 seconds on my machine (I have RAID0 Intel SSD drives).

    85. Re:BIOS by Mattsson · · Score: 1

      There's also a big difference between the BIOS on most "bare" mainboards and the ones in laptops and complete systems.
      For instance, my mainboards BIOS takes a few seconds... Not much to swear about unless I enable AHCI, which loads some damn Intel option-BIOS that takes forever finding my drives.
      The HP machines at work spend around a third as much time in POST as my own home built system.
      My laptop is even faster.

      The laptop I can understand, since they know exactly what hardware to expect and thus can cut corners, but why should my Giga-Byte mainboard be so much slower than HP's one?
      They both have to be able to handle any kind of hardware.
      They both have to initialize more or less the same kind of minimum hardware.

      --
      /.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
    86. Re:BIOS by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're not going to get that kind of uptime from a Windows box even without problems, thanks to patch tuesdays.

      You don't _have_ to patch, you know, only if you are (or think you will be) impacted by the problems fixed.

      Of course, it depends on how downtime is defined. If you use Microsoft's definition, "scheduled maintenance windows" are not classified as down time, but the rest of the world defines such things as down time.

      No, it doesn't. Most SLAs allow for scheduled maintenance and do not consider that downtime. In any event, if your environment is such that the service must remain available during maintenance periods, then you can't do it with a single server, regardless of what your OS is.

      without redefining down time like Microsoft does, you will never achieve that kind of uptime on Windows unless a) the box NEVER get infected b) you NEVER install the Windows updates and c) you NEVER change the configuration or change/update any software.

      If your requirement allows for only minutes or hours of downtime per year, then you *must* have multiple servers to be able to confidently deliver it. Once you have multiple servers, individual server outages for scheduled maintenance, are irrelevant.

    87. Re:BIOS by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      Come on guys, this is hardly new. On any Mac, you hold buttons down while pressing the power button.
      On SPARC hardware, there's a key position that boots the system straight to PROM prompt.

      Either way, the advanced firmware on these systems can be manipulated while the OS is online.

      Accessing modern firmware is such a non-problem you unimaginative clods.

    88. Re:BIOS by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      The PC architecture is just plain broken in many ways. The PC unfortunately, really wasn't designed, but evolved through accretion. So the BIOS is left with a very complicated set of kludges to work through, while working hardware that expects things to be done a certain way. On embedded systems or non-PC workstations, you rarely see this huge lag just in the initial boot software before it even starts to load the OS.

    89. Re:BIOS by WNight · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What are you doing that takes that long to shutdown? Is this just that you're doing work in 10-minute blocks and not stopping until the end of a block? Staggered app shutdown? Syncing a ton of uncached writes? Using 1980s hardware?

    90. Re:BIOS by shentino · · Score: 1

      How many of those updates actually require a reboot to become effective?

      By comparison, only updates to the kernel or a core library like glibc and important stuff like that requires an actual reboot on ubuntu.

    91. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would appear you have difficulty with the 'ea' letter combination. You used 'beet' when you meant 'beat' and now you used 'peek' when you meant 'peak'.

      Spell check won't save you here, you need to learn the language or be beaten mercilessly by language nazis.

    92. Re:BIOS by Mafia$oft · · Score: 1

      Umm, I don't think you realized that your two postings were just about polarly opposite statements... He wasn't talking about having Windows booted, he was mentioning 8 seconds _up to_ having Windows boot, whereas you...

    93. Re:BIOS by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      I have an old Via C7 (Eden) 1.2ghz machine that goes from Power On to XP Desktop in 14 seconds.

      I think it was a Phoenix BIOS, too...

      It's absolutely nothing compared to my gaming computer. That thing takes 25-30 seconds to POST!

    94. Re:BIOS by GravityStar · · Score: 1

      You still have a P133 in active use?
      *Tips hat to IntlHarvester*

    95. Re:BIOS by dolphinling · · Score: 1

      Hard to say. I'm pretty sure the 3 second time had a lot of "typical" linux components stripped out, but note that you won't get a shell until everything's finished loading, while X can be started in parallel with other things and be usable while other components start. I believe some work was done that got it under 5 seconds from init to usable. There's still the bios time (0 with a tricked-out coreboot setup) and the time while the kernel starts up before init (this takes 2-3 seconds for me, no idea what "normal" or "fast" is). That adds up to ~7-8 seconds.

      One thing to note is that storing the kernel directly in EEPROM lets you skip the bootloader entirely. Bootloaders are usually pretty fast, but they usually have a programmed delay of a few seconds to let you choose a kernel or whatever.

      --
      There are 11 types of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.
    96. Re:BIOS by dolphinling · · Score: 1

      Beats me, you'd have to ask on the coreboot mailing list.

      My best guess, though, is yes. (Excluding, of course, Windows startup.)

      --
      There are 11 types of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.
    97. Re:BIOS by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      Is it *really* at the desktop and ready to work or is it like it's been for a while. It shows the desktop but you can't do shit for another few minutes?

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    98. Re:BIOS by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      I'm not the GP, but yeah, my computer takes 20-30 seconds to start loading the OS, and I have "fastboot" (skip RAM testing) enabled. The longest part is waiting for the 6 hard drives to spin up, as has been posted before, but also waiting for the AHCI subsystem to identify them. Throw in another 10-30 seconds if I have RAID mode enabled, especially if there were any RAID errors, which has a countdown that obviously can't be bypassed if I'm not physically at the machine.

    99. Re:BIOS by jo42 · · Score: 1

      I still don't get what the fuss is about slow boot times. My three year old Dell Inspirion 6400 latop with a 160GB 5400 RPM 2.5" SATA drive goes from power off (NOT standby) to Windows XP desktop in 14 seconds. What are you people doing wrong?

    100. Re:BIOS by nanospook · · Score: 1

      That's one confused bios :) Have you tried going into the BIOS and just using the reset option? Clears that up sometimes..

      --
      Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
    101. Re:BIOS by amorsen · · Score: 1

      It doesn't take a long time just for the sake of taking a long time, it takes a long time to make sure everything is correct as it should be.

      No, it takes a long time because BIOS programmers are the worst programmers in existence. For most of the boot sequence the machine just sits around doing nothing. Coreboot has shown how quickly it CAN be done.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    102. Re:BIOS by ProfessionalCookie · · Score: 1

      I once had a Mac IIcx boot OS7 in 14 seconds- that'd be with networking and quicktime.

    103. Re:BIOS by kelnos · · Score: 1

      I always wondered how that works. My current Linux kernel is 3.7MB compressed... I doubt most BIOS chips have that kind of space on them.

      --
      Xfce: Lighter than some, heavier than others. Just right.
    104. Re:BIOS by kelnos · · Score: 1

      Well, you can't get to most bootloaders without initializing some hardware, like, say, the disk controller (which presumably requires at least a part of the PCI bus to be initialized). Of course, if you put the bootloader (or even the entire kernel) into the BIOS itself, then it doesn't matter.

      --
      Xfce: Lighter than some, heavier than others. Just right.
    105. Re:BIOS by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      What I don't get is this....who exactly is sitting in front of their PC like a crackhead screaming "Hurry up!" anyway? Hell my low end AMD 7550 dualie with 8Gb of RAM boots XP X64 in maybe 40 seconds. That gives me just enough time to grab a quick swig of coke and maybe get a quick drag on my cigarette...maybe.

      And I have yet to have a customer ask me "how fast will this puppy boot?". Nope, their questions are more like "how fast will this convert a DVD?" or " How fast with this can I rip my CDs to MP3?". Most folks are either leaving them on 24/7 or suspending to RAM, not actually booting cold. So who exactly is starting this whole "my PC boots faster than yours!" epeen BS anyway? Have they run out of cool features to talk about or something? Because boot speed is pretty damned low on the totem pole as far as Joe customer is concerned, at least from what I've seen. They want at least dual cores, preferably quad, 4Gb+ of RAM, and a big fat HDD. Give them that along with plenty of USB and a GPU that does high def nicely and they are happy campers. I just don't get the whole "superboot" epeen BS. Or am I missing something here?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    106. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We had e450 machines running up until a year and a half ago. I miss those machines

    107. Re:BIOS by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Use direct device access. Like in the original 8042 controller.

    108. Re:BIOS by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Try more aggressive compression. Compile something out, you certainly don't need everything. Also, newer BIOS chips are hitting 4 MB.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    109. Re:BIOS by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      New BIOSs are UEFI.

      As much as they don't like to say it, UEFI is basically an operating system. UEFI supports byte code applications (that's right). It has a driver framework and drivers for many of your devices, a TCP/IP stack, etc...

      I'm skeptical of EFI. It actually has a file system driver too - the OS boot loader is loaded from a FAT partition. There's a lot of possibility of bloatware in the byte code drivers too.

      It seems to me that a typical PC BIOS spends most of its time waiting for ATA devices to identify themselves. BIOSs can be efficient if they don't do much in the way of testing - the only thing they need to do is load the first sector of the disk into memory and jump to it. Most modern BIOSs have a "plug and play OS" option which is set by default. That means they don't try to enumerate hardware - just do the bare minimum to set up the chipset, get the video card working and make sure the boot disk adapter is set up.

      Actually my G1S laptop seems has a regular BIOS and it seems to get to the Windows loader screen pretty quickly - maybe couple of seconds. It's actually got a splash screen too in the meantime complete with animation and sound. Maybe the SATA spec has tightened up the requirements for identifying devices, or maybe the drive I have is just fast at starting.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    110. Re:BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BIOS is slow because it generally does most of its IO by polling without using this wait time to do other tasks. It's usually a very batch-processing type set up.

      My guess would be that they've developed some tools to help make code that doesn't waste so much time busy/waiting. This could be something like a programming language geared towards the peculiarities of BIOS and a compiler that is smart enough to schedule code with IO latency in mind, which is similar to pipeline scheduling.

    111. Re:BIOS by IntlHarvester · · Score: 1

      Old Macs are another case where tons of RAM kills POST times. I have a Quadra 950 with 256MB and it takes forever to even chime after you push the switch.

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
    112. Re:BIOS by IntlHarvester · · Score: 1

      Actively collecting dust anyway. I keep it around to commemorate my 5 digit slashdot ID.

      (For the record it's a Compaq Deskpro XL 5133 workstation, one of the better Pentium systems made. It was also my main desktop up until circa 2000.)

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
    113. Re:BIOS by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      I swear I replied to this but missed it. My brain skippeed a beat and I meant to say my ubuntu laptop takes the same to go from loading (post-bios) -> logging in.

    114. Re:BIOS by Mattsson · · Score: 1

      Regardless of how you initialize your hardware, the minimum time for an optimized init should be the same with both Coreboot and a vendor BIOS.
      The main thing that a Coreboot with an integrated kernel can cut down on is waiting for spin up of the boot-drive.
      If you're going to load your kernel via a boot-loader, you can't start reading it until the drive has spun up. If you start loading the kernel from BIOS-flash, you can start before the disk is ready.

      One of the main thing standard BIOS can cut down on is showing logos, reporting BIOS-version, product name, drives, amount of RAM, etc, etc that is usually shown for at least 0.5 seconds each.
      And, of course, they could suppress any logos, firmware-versions, product names, etc, etc of graphics-cards and such.

      If the time from power on to start of boot-loader can be shortened so that the drive spin up is the main limit, there shouldn't have to be much difference between a Coreboot and a regular boot.

      --
      /.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
    115. Re:BIOS by Sandbags · · Score: 1

      Handover resources to cluster node, sync cached writes, terminate service level applications, confirm disconnections, export log data, perform pre-shutdown security check, and more.

      This is not all servers, but specifically MS Exchange servers tend to take forever to shut down, as well as many protal servers and clustered servers running other database apps.

      Incidently, the Exchange boxes are the most powerful X64 chassis we have in the building (we have lots of P5 and P6+ chassis that smoke them, not to mention the z9s and z10s, but for x64, they're hot boxes). The CPU is fairly idle during shutdown, it's mostly wait states and timeouts making the reboots take that long.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
  2. yeah, but... by jollyreaper · · Score: 5, Insightful

    After you see the desktop it's another minute for all the system tray crap to load. And if you're stuck with corporate antivirus? May as well throw some cinderblocks in the trunk of that nice sportscar and watch it do 0 to 60 like an arthritic Ford Pinto.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:yeah, but... by LordKaT · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ... but if you're building a computer that requires a fast startup time - like an in-car PC - 10 second startup time is a godsend.

    2. Re:yeah, but... by dmbasso · · Score: 1

      Actually, if it was a Linux OS, there would also be some folks bashing it. It's the "group mentality" that makes people so much partial.

      To the point: my Aspire One booted Linspire in 15 seconds, and now boots Ubuntu Netbook Remix in 25 seconds, so I can't see the revolution they're talking about.

      --
      `echo $[0x853204FA81]|tr 0-9 ionbsdeaml`@gmail.com
    3. Re:yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not so sure this is just a Windows 7 optimisation, everything in the video indicates that it's a POST optimisation that would benefit any OS installed there. In fact, he even says that they DIDN'T optimise it, that it was just the standard product they offered to OEMs. Windows is just a good way to demonstrate it because 99% of people are more familliar with its startup process. Plus, if they demonstrated say Ubuntu starting up, its easy to say "oh well they probably modified the Kernel and disabled some subsystems" and such.

    4. Re:yeah, but... by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Vista and Win7 are much better about responsiveness during that initial phase right after log-in, where background applications start. I won't deny that the system still slows down, but it's nothing near so bad as XP where if you didn't wait until the system was DONE with loading, it would actually take *even longer* before you could do anything useful.

      Multi-core helps too, but a lot of it is differences in the OS. Both the kernel's scheduler and the background process initialization were improved (although some would certainly argue that on the whole, Vista's scheduler was worse... they fixed those issues well before Win7 shipped, though).

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    5. Re:yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Actually with Windows 7 on an Intel X-25M Gen2 SSD, there is zero lag once you hit the desktop. You can immediately start loading applications. Windows 7 is fantastically better than both XP and Vista at UI responsiveness during system tray application loads. Try it for yourself on a machine with a good solid-state disk. Also, that is on a machine with Symantec Endpoint Corporate Anti-Virus on it as well as a full bevy of applications including Pro/Enginer 4.0, National Instruments Labview (which loads a gazillion services), Office 2007, Acrobat Pro 8.0 etc.

    6. Re:yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm also pretty sure they need to do some more work on it to make sure they are not violating the security spec that says if the TPM is turned on and owned that they have to do a clear of all memory on boot/reboot. Now, sure some folks won't use that - but in a corporate environment these days folks tend to use BitLocker and the TPM will be on and owned. If they are failing to spend the time to do that once the TPM is on it could be a security problem. For comparison on a T400 machine with normal old style BIOS (what ships on them today) that clearing of the RAM (for whatever reason) takes about 15 seconds extra for a machine with 4 GB RAM. You can easily see the difference between a reboot with the TPM active and owned and a reboot with the TPM off. (Cold boot performance doesn't seem to be as affected, but warm reboot definitely is).

    7. Re:yeah, but... by Truekaiser · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your confusing hardware and code. it's more to do with the ssd then windows code.

    8. Re:yeah, but... by CxDoo · · Score: 1

      Expect all sorts of products to be mentioned along the lines of

      Yo dawg, I herd you like Windoze 7, so I put an superfly BIOS in your MoBo so you can chill while you boot.

      And that's bandwagon marketing for you today.

      --
      "Blah blah blah." - [citation needed]
    9. Re:yeah, but... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Marketing:

      Windows now boots (the bios) in under a second giving you a faster user experience (but a usable desktop in roughly 10 minutes)

      Linux boots (to a usable desktop) in 25 seconds.

      Reading without the bits in brackets, which do you think is best? That's what marketing is all about.

    10. Re:yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...on XP and older. Windows 7 does have a decent responsiveness after login.

    11. Re:yeah, but... by CxDoo · · Score: 1

      I agree with you on that one, but I was talking about marketing _random product_ by mentioning Windows 7.

      Like,

      Our tests show that SuperCool(R) Windowator(TM) Mouse Pad is guaranteed to offer you superior experience in Windows 7!

      --
      "Blah blah blah." - [citation needed]
    12. Re:yeah, but... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      No it's a joke! As another poster mentioned, coreboot does it in 3!! And what crazy person would install Windows 7 on a in-car system? What for? So you can brag about the giant graphics card, cooling system and storage you need to do that?

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    13. Re:yeah, but... by gid · · Score: 1

      I've noticed this as well. I think it's actually loading all your on start programs that sit in the system tray before they show you the desktop, which is probably a good thing. I know to wait for the hard drive to stop crunching, but not everyone else does.

    14. Re:yeah, but... by EricX2 · · Score: 1

      http://www.r2.com.au/software.php?page=2&show=startdelay

      Best program I've ever used. Allows you to delay when programs start so they don't all start at the same time and you can actually USE windows as soon as you log in.

    15. Re:yeah, but... by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      Use a BeOS derivative. The Haiku version that was linked to a week or so ago boots in 8 seconds in my VirtualBox.

    16. Re:yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not if you're using solid state drives it isn't. As soon as you get a desktop, everything just works.

      Hard disks are the bottleneck here.

    17. Re:yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Crap loading on top of windows is not a problem with windows. Its a problem with application programmers who try to make their programs load faster by offloading half of the program onto Windows startup. You can turn that stuff off. Adobe is a big culprit here, that speedlauncher of theirs is actually a chunk of their program that is preloaded, makes their programs start quick but slows windows down. And even with a lot of that I've seen a lot of Linux distros that take a LOT longer.

      I've optimized Windows to boot in 10 seconds from power on, it took 3 days of work and was highly optimized for what I was using the machine for but it can be done.

    18. Re:yeah, but... by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Interesting, but the only thing I really want to start when I log in is the antivirus, and that pretty much needs to be immediate. The rest of the crap that loads is probably better off removed, not delayed.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    19. Re:yeah, but... by Carbaholic · · Score: 1

      All the system tray crap loads much faster in Windows 7 than in previous versiosn of windows.

    20. Re:yeah, but... by Kozz · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I was thinking about all these details and pulling a Joe Wilson.

      /. : "Start Windows 7 Boot in 1 Second"

      me: "You lie!"

      --
      I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
    21. Re:yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I happened to time this this morning. From pushing the power button to Explorer window,
      it's 9.5 minutes, and ~11 Minutes for Outlook with new emails. Large corporation,
      2.4GHz Core2 Duo, 2 GB RAM, GBit LAN up to the server, McAfee virus scanner.

    22. Re:yeah, but... by sorak · · Score: 1

      Would you make it windows based? Using a mouse while driving is very dangerous, you know...

    23. Re:yeah, but... by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      You mean..."integrated graphics", "passive cooling", and "small 80G SSD drive"? Yeah, thought so.

    24. Re:yeah, but... by IntlHarvester · · Score: 1

      The delay in Vista and below seems to be mostly perceptual. Click start menu, something steals focus or something, and you can't do anything for a couple seconds. Maybe they fixed this simply with smarter window management.

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
    25. Re:yeah, but... by jubei · · Score: 1

      The best options for a carpc currently are windows xp and windows 7 because there are few gps navigation apps for linux.

    26. Re:yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter what does it, it still invalidates GP's point.

    27. Re:yeah, but... by Sandbags · · Score: 1

      in-car PCs, most of them, STAY on, in idle states, using a static OS loaded from Flash. They don't "reboot". VX Works is a popular, stateless OS, and essentially does not "boot" it is simply allways running and ready to accept commands. This is the whole point of Windows Embedded...

      The "booting" you see is the computer bringing up the screen, and turning on additional sensors in a low power or off state. It;s already running, its just bringing up interfaces, and that only takes a couple of seconds.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    28. Re:yeah, but... by michaelhood · · Score: 1

      Would you make it windows based? Using a mouse while driving is very dangerous, you know...

      I know you're trying to be clever, but Windows 7 has the best touchscreen support out-of-the-box for consumer stuff at the moment. Combined with the fact that Windows is the only OS right now with useful navigation software..

    29. Re:yeah, but... by LordKaT · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about the onboard computer - that can stay firmly in the realm of Vx. I'm talking about a tweakers PC, like on mp3car.com -- it's basically a personal computer used as an over-the-top GPS and sound system, although I've seen some pretty cool things come from it.

    30. Re:yeah, but... by Nithendil · · Score: 1

      Unlike previous versions of windows, you can start actually using windows 7 as soon as see the desktop. The only thing I've seen to see it slow that down is really shitty anti-virus or if you have a bunch of desktop gadgets that use the internet

    31. Re:yeah, but... by dfries · · Score: 1

      It isn't mousing and driving that is a problem, or rather, it's not the mouse it's the display. You have two hands, one hand on the wheel, one on the mouse. If you think that's a problem, try driving a stick, same idea. You have two eyes, but if you are looking at the monitor, you aren't looking at the road.

      That's why my in car entertainment (Linux computer in the trunk) has a mouse wedged between the driver's seat and center console for input (just buttons, it doesn't move), and an audio connection to the car radio. There's no display to take my eyes off the road.

    32. Re:yeah, but... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      A large part of the problem is that historically Windows has allowed everything you want to start on boot to start at the same time. Meaning that they're all competing with each other for CPU time, disk access and other resources. Even in Win XP with quite a few items going, if you spread them out over a few minutes from critical to non-critical you can get an actual usable desktop fairly quickly upon boot.

    33. Re:yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There should be a law requiring MINIMUM 1-hour boot time for all in-car PCs.

      Friends don't let friends surf the web while driving.

    34. Re:yeah, but... by sorak · · Score: 1

      So if the mouse is being used only for buttons, then wouldn't have made more sense to buy either a remote used for multimedia/presentations, or to use a an external USB numeric keypad? (I am assuming that whatever software you use can map the commands to different keys)

    35. Re:yeah, but... by dfries · · Score: 1

      I wrote the software so I have control of the mouse input and ogg vorbis has a library that provides the decoding and seeking I needed so it's no mp3 player. The original idea was to record talk radio at home, then play it back in the car skipping the uninteresting parts. I thought a game pad would be ideal, but started with a mouse because that's what I had and never got around to switching. The mouse has its advantages, it's wedged in place and right where my hand naturally falls, a game pad would have to be held. I'm mostly downloading and listening to podcasts these days.

    36. Re:yeah, but... by DaVince21 · · Score: 1

      Bah, Linux doesn't need marketing.

      --
      I am not devoid of humor.
    37. Re:yeah, but... by sorak · · Score: 1

      Sounds cool. So, how do you transfer files?

      Does it have an external hard drive? It sounds like all you need is a wifi card and a web/ftp server on your home PC's podcast directory, and you'd be in business. :)

    38. Re:yeah, but... by dfries · · Score: 1

      Updating is a manual process. I run power and Ethernet to the trunk, then ssh/scp/rsync to remove old files and add new files. It might be two or three months before I run out of material and have to connect up for more, so I haven't had that much incentive to automate the process. Going Wifi would make the network setup easier, and automating the transfers would be handy, but even then there wouldn't be time in normal daily use to transfer the files. In leaving, I would be out of range before computer boots up and is ready. If it had a DC power supply with some timeout features it could work to keep the system on long enough when I got home to transfer the files before turning off again, that would be cool, but it's using an inverter, so ignition goes off, so does it.

      It has worked out really nice over the years. Stuck in traffic? No problem, I have hours of the Dave Ramsey Show, Planetary Society Planetary Radio, etc.

      It's not for everyone. I was curious about Morse code when I started, so that's the interface. It started with a three button mouse and no scroll wheel, you have to overload the commands somehow. On the plus side I can take notes on it while driving, on the down side I learned how fast it is, ie, you have to be really good to do it with any speed. The character rate is 15 words per minute, but add in some extra time between words, and it isn't nearly that fast.

    39. Re:yeah, but... by Sandbags · · Score: 1

      If you really think the 5-10 seconds saved is that critical for a non-critical thing like playing music (which can just as easily be done with in-dash systems today), then thats fine. This is not a concern for the 99+% of drivers, only a fraction of tweakers.

      Even my GPS takes about 5-8 seconds to load after power on. i get in the car, and turn it on, it;s another 15-20 seconds before I've gotten the iPod plugged in and docked and start a playlist. If the in-car computer took that long to come up, that's not an obstacle, provided the car actually runs... I'm not looking for a getaway vehicle, I've got 30-45 seconds to turn my stuffg on, tune in, put on a seat belt, check the mirrors and put it in drive. If the complete car computer took that long, but saved me messing with an iPod and GPS, it;s break even, with existing BIOS...

      I'm assuming of course these in-car comuters use basic hardware, not PXE boot, RAID controllers, more than 2GB of basic RAM, etc, and only take 5-8 seconds to post (not 42 seconds to pass BIOS as my gaming and video editing desktop rig does, fo which thuis new tech would only shave the first 8 seconds of that pre-boot time anyway).

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
  3. I have an idea by eclectro · · Score: 3, Funny

    If they could get rid of the vacuum tubes, Windows could turn on instantly.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    1. Re:I have an idea by knghtrider · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the Sound Quality will be outta sight (ask any guitarist why they prefer vaccum tube amps) and it will get faster and faster as the tubes get hotter..

      --
      In America today you can murder land for private profit. You can leave the corpse for all to see, and nobody calls the c
    2. Re:I have an idea by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      removing the vacuum tubes would also let you remove the large DC blocking caps.

      (...which I think are really a DRM device of some sort.)

      I can't wait until low voltage pc's become popular!

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:I have an idea by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      and it will get faster and faster as the tubes get hotter..

      no, you're thinking of MOSFETS.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    4. Re:I have an idea by rplst8 · · Score: 1

      If they could get rid of the vacuum tubes, Windows could turn on instantly.

      Are the vacuum tubes what cause Windows to suck so badly?

    5. Re:I have an idea by Late+Adopter · · Score: 1

      Somehow I think Windows without the vacuum tubes would still suck. ;)

  4. Boot logo is nice but? by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

    How long does it take before the desktop is usable? Did they login all the way or just stopped the clock at the login prompt? Vista for eg. boots quickly but it takes a while until its usable.

    Its fairly easy to speed up the bios if you just scrap all internal testing, key pauses and such. Does it recognize a new ide/sata disk/other devices without going into bios manually?

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
    1. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by Kokuyo · · Score: 0, Troll

      Watch the video.

    2. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      Anecdotal evidence: Lenovo T500, Vista x86, 3GB usable RAM, 120GB SSD - boot time until usable in under 30 seconds, reboot is actually faster than resume from hibernate.

      Lenovo Thinkpad BIOSes have been booting in about a second and a half for years, when network boot was disabled and HDD was the first in boot order.

    3. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

      This is nothing to do with the OS, this is about reducing the time before the OS starts to load. There's not much the BIOS can do from then on.

    4. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      I've never understood those claims, or perhaps you've just managed to get a computer that has no background processes running. My Dell Precision M70 is about 4-5 minutes from cold boot to usable, and Bios is maybe 10 seconds of that, at most. Resume from hibernation (with 2GB of RAM and a 5400RPM IDE drive) is between 25 and 30 seconds.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    5. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by Shikaku · · Score: 2, Informative

      How to get Fast Boot Times (OS Independent, but I've never done this with MacOSX)

      Step One: If you bought a ready made computer with Windows and you want Windows, format and reinstall Windows clean with the Windows CD that came with it and defragment it, or install your choice of OS. Vendors install crap that will slow everything down, and you should just start clean. Remember to keep a backup of working drivers (if needed)!

      Step Two: Disable all unneeded services. In Windows you do this from the Control Panel. In Linux use a Boot-Up manager, like bum, or edit the bootup scripts manually; readahead can also be helpful.

      Step Three: Make sure you delete all unneeded applications if possible, and disable all startup applications not needed at startup. This goes along step two but it's more about desktop programs loading. Running msconfig for Windows and editing the startup applications, you can stop programs you don't want from loading.

      Step Four: This is more preventative measures. Don't install crap you don't need. In Windows installing any program permanently slows down Windows (this is why I mentioned just formatting the Windows computer and reinstalling Windows). This has to do with the registry. In *nix this is not an issue if handled correctly. Usually if it isn't handled correctly your system becomes unusable either way.

    6. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      The OS is a Lenovo Vista OEM installation, stock, with no deep modification other than being transferred from the HDD it was shipped on to the SSD via Acronis. SSD is an OCZ Vertext 120GB, stock retail. This system is not sacrificially tuned for speed and includes Acrobat Reader, Virus scanner and all that stuff.

      Since I don't have that much experience with Vista yet, I guess an expert could speed it up some more.

    7. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe you're just an idiot who doesn't realize that a SSD is going to beat the shit out of your 5400 RPM drive.

    8. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      For clarification and repeatable results:

      - "usable" would in my eyes be defined as in "open start menu, click firefox, visit 'www.google.com' and have a random search term return results". If that operation is mostly unimpeded by background operations, i.e. not noticeably slower than if I had waited for half an hour, I'll call it "usable".
      - SSDs have their incredible strength in parallelizing tiny loads, that's why all tray icons appear almosts simultaneously here
      - with all loads going on, but no read head clicking back and forth, you can still load up Firefox and start surfing, because it simply doesn't matter much and is almost unnoticeable.

      - if a definition of "boot up" requires Vista to be finished doing any disk activity of some sort, it's unworkable because Vista simply doesn't really stop accessing the disk, because the moment the "boot" is finished, "indexing" or "prefetching" or whatever stuff it needs doing starts. SSDs have other disadvantages, but at least they make Vista useable with little extra effort.

    9. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow man, that's really over the top. Corp. virus scan?

    10. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      Introduced some fixes for you:

      Step one: if you bought a ready made computer, you probably don't have a clean Windows CD, or even no recovery CD at all. Immediately produce a recovery CD if possible or buy Acronis or Ghost if not and then store the factory freshest image possible.

      Step two: leave Windows services alone unless you you are damn well sure you know what you are doing. Make sure your backups are up to date, though.

      Step three: uninstall all really unneeded applications that you are sure are not required to utilize a particular hardware function or USB device.

      Step four: use anti-spyware and anti-virus software from any trusted, well-known brand maybe except Symantec, they probably slow down the system more than real spyware :)

      Or just cut corners and install the max amount of physical RAM your system can handle, 4 GB are recommended and use an SSD instead of a HDD. Don't skip the anti virus thing, though.

    11. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      Step Four: This is more preventative measures. Don't install crap you don't need. In Windows installing any program permanently slows down Windows (this is why I mentioned just formatting the Windows computer and reinstalling Windows). This has to do with the registry. In *nix this is not an issue if handled correctly. Usually if it isn't handled correctly your system becomes unusable either way.

      Or alternately:

      Step Four: Install pagedefrag, set it to defragment every boot, and don't worry about your registry or pagefile getting fragmented all to hell any more, and the "Windows slowdown" problem goes away. (I have an XP install that I used daily for 3 years, and still use regularly. It's still just as snappy as the day I set it up.)

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    12. Re:Boot logo is nice but? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      It also helps to disable the automatic resizing of the Page file too, as that does little more than cause the page to get really badly fragmented really quickly.

  5. Very important by poptones · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's very important they minimize windows boot times because, you know, windows users have to reboot so frequently...

    1. Re:Very important by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

      It would be nice if PCs could just switch off just as fast, too.
      Really, what is there to do? Kill everything with extreme prejudice and flush the cache. Unless you've got gigabytes of pending writes it really shouldn't take as long as it does.
      Though, the power switch achieves (almost) the same effect with no waiting at all.

      --
      politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    2. Re:Very important by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Though, the power switch achieves (almost) the same effect with no waiting at all.

      Yeah thats a good idea. And why are you still sitting on your chair and watching the turning off screen while its going down? It will turn off itself, you know.

    3. Re:Very important by Tekfactory · · Score: 1

      Unless you're waiting for a laptop to turn off closing the docked hardware profile so you can remove it from the dock cleanly and when it boots up next it'll be in another location with a different dock and network address or undocked and using a wifi connection.

      Not all computers are desktops, and faster boot/shutdown times save batteries for real computing.

    4. Re:Very important by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      It depends on what you mean by reboot. Back when I used Windows, I rebooted every month or so for updates but I hibernated the machine each night. When I turned it back on, it took longer for the BIOS to hand control back to the OS than it took the PowerBook I replaced it with to get to a usable desktop from suspend-to-disk (it was much faster if it had only suspended to RAM, but so was the Windows machine). If the BIOS had only taken one second, as this one does, then performance for the two machines would have been similar.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Very important by knghtrider · · Score: 1

      Honestly, I loaded Windows 7 on August 7, and my only windows reboot came when we had a thunderstorm and power was out for 3 hours. Other than that, everything is fine. Even then, the boot time is under a minute and a half. When I first loaded it, it took 30 minutes from wipe to usable system. Loading all of my extra software and restoring my documents took longer, naturally. Under XP, I could brew an entire pot of coffee, while making eggs and sausage in a skillet on the stove, pour a cup, fix my 'sausage egg muffin' sandwich, and then sit down. I would still have to wait for XP to finish.

      --
      In America today you can murder land for private profit. You can leave the corpse for all to see, and nobody calls the c
    6. Re:Very important by mikael_j · · Score: 1

      I take it you've never had XP or Vista at work just randomly decide not to shutdown and log you out instead dumping you right back at the desktop (even though all apps had been killed beforehand). This happened to me a few times with my work machines at previous employers, and when you get to the office the next day to find yourself still logged in that's kind of an "oh shit!" moment.

      It's one of those odd glitches right up there with Vista flashing the desktop background image when you hit ctrl-alt-del to unlock a machine (note to those who didn't know about this: don't use anything remotely sensitive as your desktop background at work since all it takes is a video camera capable of 15 fps or so to get a clean view of your desktop).

      /Mikael

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    7. Re:Very important by ArcCoyote · · Score: 1

      OS X and Win Vista/7 has this nice feature called "Hybrid Sleep" that will write a hibernate file to disk but then suspend to RAM. If it can later wake up it will, otherwise it will cold boot, see there's a hibernate file, and resume from that. It's called "safe sleep" on OS X.

      This is most useful when you are on a laptop and the battery might die in sleep. On either OS, it's not enable by default for portable machines. Oddly enough, in Windows, It IS on by default for desktops.

      Was the windows machine you replaced a desktop? If it was, remember, desktop drives take longer to spin up, and desktop motherboards have to scan the PCI bus, as well as other things like initializing USB devices, looking for HID and storage.

    8. Re:Very important by pyrrhonist · · Score: 1

      This is most useful when you are on a laptop and the battery might die in sleep.

      Laptops don't need to use hybrid sleep mode, because they've had the ability for a while to hibernate when the battery starts to get low, thus saving the running state.

      Oddly enough, in Windows, It IS on by default for desktops.

      That's because hybrid sleep is meant for desktops, not laptops. Since desktops don't usually have a battery backup, a power outage will cause you to lose your running applications. Hybrid sleep was meant to fix this problem for desktops.

      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
  6. It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by AftanGustur · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Great BIOS!

    But there is no special relationship between this bios and Windows 7, meaning that Linux can't also start-to-boot in 1 second!

    The Upcoming Ubuntu 10.04 is going to start up in 10 seconds, meaning that from you hit the power button until you have the system ready are only 11 seconds on this system.

    --
    echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
    1. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Hal_Porter · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      But there is no special relationship between this bios and Windows 7, meaning that Linux can't also start-to-boot in 1 second!

      Somewhere in Redmond a troll just snorted battery acid and gasoline all over its keyboard.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    2. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Boots OS, logs in user, loads desktop environment (including all its background processes) and is ready to use in 10 seconds? Highly doubtful (theoretically possible, but I won't believe it until I see it).

      Loading kernel / drivers, running init (including loading the libraries that it and its child processes need), starting the X server, and even reaching a login screen in 10 seconds would be impressive.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    3. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget the Gnome menu delay upon first use where it can take up to 5 seconds to respond to a mouse click as it loads in the menu configuration and icons and so on. Why this isn't preloaded is anyone's guess.

    4. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The Upcoming Ubuntu 10.04 is going to start up in 10 seconds, meaning that from you hit the power button until you have the system ready are only 11 seconds on this system.

      I guess it's time for me to try Ubantu. I tried various dostros years ago and settled on Mandriva, but the boot time is about the only drawback to it that affects me.

      And to those who say "you don't have to reboot Linux all the time like Windows", I have to pay for my electricity. The PC is shut off when it's not in use. Waste not, want not.

    5. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by David+Jao · · Score: 2, Informative

      But there is no special relationship between this bios and Windows 7, meaning that Linux can't also start-to-boot in 1 second!

      The Upcoming Ubuntu 10.04 is going to start up in 10 seconds, meaning that from you hit the power button until you have the system ready are only 11 seconds on this system.

      Indeed, 20 seconds to boot is not "incredibly short" by any means, unless you've been trapped in Windows for so long that your standards have lowered. Fedora has been at the 20 second mark for a while now. On "retrofitted" platforms (similar to what is used in the article), Linux has achieved five second boot times.

      It's worth noting that in the Linux world, "Done booting means CPU and disk idle" as per Arjan van de Ven, whereas in the Windows world your computer is still loading up services and anti-virus programs even after you get to the desktop. So Linux is booting up faster despite measuring itself against a tougher standard. Hmm...

      This whole thing is a non-story except to sufferers of inferior operating systems. The so-called "incredibly short" boot times are merely normal on alternative operating systems, and have been for quite some time.

    6. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      1s -> grub
      3s -> Loading kernel / drivers, running init (including loading the libraries that it and its child processes need)
      9s -> start the X server
      once X is started it depends how much crap a user runs in the background but fluxbox can easily start in a second.

      If you add something like user specific readaheads to the global bootup script, you can cut down kde/gnome start time to a few seconds. I'm not saying i believe ubuntu will do it for the next version but it is certainly an achievable goal.

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    7. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My current Ubuntu 9.04 already starts in way less then 10 seconds (including X and everything). The box has a ASRock M3A790GXH board, 3.2GHz Phenom II cpu and some VelociRaptor drives and no expansion cards or connected peripherals except for USB thumbdrives. It would take _much_ longer if I used the fglrx which is why I don't.

    8. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Saint+Stephen · · Score: 1

      The twenty second link you posted described a plan to GET to 20 second boot. When I read it, I see a lot of bugs and test results from people saying it's a goal they are trying to get to, and I don't see conclusively that "in all cases fedora always gets there in 20 seconds."

      I think that most real-world linux users take longer. Your statement is misleading.

    9. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      Fedora also has been working on fast boot times as well.

      Unfortunately, openSUSE (which has been my favorite distro) doesn't seem to have the same number of active developers it once had. And they haven't been working towards integrating the advancements that Ubuntu/Fedora have developed to speed up boot times.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    10. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by amplt1337 · · Score: 1

      It takes my Debian system about 16 seconds to get to a login (well, it would if I weren't also starting up a web server and database server).

      But why on earth would you start the X server before you get a login prompt?

      --
      Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
    11. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually there is a relationship. It's called a "marketing deal". Phoenix and Microsoft promote their work in combination, expecting "bigger than the sum of its parts" effect out of it.
      Apparently it worked, seeing how some people here think it's really great that an OS boots in freakin' 10 seconds. When Coreboot with Linux does it literally in 3.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    12. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by AndrewNeo · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hey, now, nobody asked for a car analogy just yet!

    13. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by domatic · · Score: 1

      I have EEE PC 4G that can boot to a Debian Sid LXDE desktop in less than 30 seconds. Maybe even twenty though I haven't bothered to time it. I can tell you that the OS boot takes only slightly longer than the BIOS to load and initialize. Efforts to lower "real world" Linux boot times ARE paying off.

    14. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by vio · · Score: 1

      Perhaps full desktop in under 10 seconds is a bit overly optimistic, but the alpha of 9.10 currently boots (for me) from grub->desktop in 15 seconds flat on my T400s with SSD -- and that 15 seconds includes the time it takes me to type my password! Yep, 15 seconds, and yea, that's "usable" (icons all there, taskbars, heck, even networkmanager is trying to connect to the wifi networks at that point).

      So 10 seconds isn't all that far out of reach... they still have >6 months till 10.04 ...

      Reaching login screen in 10 seconds? Done that :)

    15. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      And to those who say "you don't have to reboot Linux all the time like Windows", I have to pay for my electricity. The PC is shut off when it's not in use. Waste not, want not.

      Most slashdotters don't have such miserly parents...

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    16. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other people have corrected you already, but I'll add another data point: Moblin 2.0 boots into a usable, composited desktop in under 10 seconds on my Eee. It's not just theoretically possible, it happens right now.

      Feel free to be impressed ;)

    17. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Khyber · · Score: 1

      MenuetOS can do all of that in less than 5 seconds.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    18. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by orange47 · · Score: 1

      and on my ZX Spectrum, 'OS' loads in less than 1sec har har

    19. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Sandbags · · Score: 1

      ...and it would be even faster if it was EFI, since code drivers would be part of the firmware image, and not have to be loaded... This is a reason OS X boots so quick, as well as numbers EFI aware distos of Linux.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    20. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Foredecker · · Score: 1

      No - we measure boot exactly the same way - time to a functioning desktop and idle resources. On a system with well optimized driver (e.g. ones that don't hang or have other synchronous bugs), and a good BIOS, W7 can boot very fast.

      --
      Jibe!
    21. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please take 30 seconds to research before you post a moronic reply.

    22. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      I gave LXDE a try months ago but it seemed pretty rough around the edges. Maybe I should look at it again; I can get to a kdm login prompt in 29 seconds, but KDE4 takes *another* 30 after logging in...

    23. Re:It will also "start to boot" Linux in 1 Second! by domatic · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't use it for a main desktop but on a small machine that I have only a few targeted uses for it is desktop enough.

  7. Re:Awesome! by Kokuyo · · Score: 0, Troll

    Have you ever actually used Windows 7?

  8. Windows Just Pops Up? by NoYob · · Score: 1
    I would like to try to: connect to a network, print, or anything else that needs those background services to run.

    I'm thinking that they turned just about every service off in order to get it to pop up that fast.

    If it is booting up as a fully functional system, then kudos to them! But I am skeptical.

    --
    It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    1. Re:Windows Just Pops Up? by sopssa · · Score: 1

      They're only demonstrating the time it takes in BIOS (almost nothing), not in OS.

  9. wait, wait... change the headline by thomasdz · · Score: 1

    wait, wait.... from what I read and from what I know about Slashdot...shouldn't the headline read "New Phoenix BIOS Starts LINUX boot in 1 second"?
    Or how about "New Phoenix BIOS Starts OpenBSD Boot in 1 second"? or even "New Phoenix BIOS Starts OS X Boot in 1 second"?

    --
    Karma: Excellent. 15 moderator points expire sometime.
    1. Re:wait, wait... change the headline by FourthAge · · Score: 1

      Nobody knows why, but for some reason the collective panties of Slashdot are totally wet at the thought of installing Windows 7 everywhere.

      It's the new Windows XP, you know. I can only assume that Microsoft borrowed some of Apple's marketdroidium for the Windows 7 launch.

      --
      The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
  10. Windows 7? by Haiyadragon · · Score: 1, Insightful

    What's with the Windows 7 plug?

    Booting into Ubuntu will be amazingly fast with this Phoenix BIOS. Can't wait until I can get something like this for my PC.

    1. Re:Windows 7? by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      I think the point of the plug was just to show how fast you can boot for a typical user. Face it, most people aren't using linux. They are going to be on Windows, and Window 7 has a significantly improved boot time compared to previous versions. So, for a typical Windows user, Win 7 would be the best way to showcase fast booting.

  11. I don't understand the obsession... by IANAAC · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I don't understand the obsession with short boot times.

    Most of us keep our machines running all the time. I would think a quicker return from suspend or hibernate would be more useful.

    1. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by petes_PoV · · Score: 5, Insightful
      And if a PC booted in sub 1-second, more people would switch off and stop wasting power - and then marvel at the savings they make.

      The two reasons for ever-on PCs is either when the user doesn't like to wait the (in my case) minutes for the boot sequence to run through: whether that's Linux or Microsoft, it's far too long.
      The second reason is when they're running stuff in that background: a server or data collection, or just a long download,. Obviously in this case, faster booting won't help but ignoring these power-users (which is probably a big proportion of the /. base, so there's no need to identify yourselves - I get it), if it gets a few million more PCs turned off then it's a good thing.

      --
      politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    2. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by klapaucjusz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most of us keep our machines running all the time.

      Yes, we do, and that is wasteful. With faster boot and support for wake-on-lan in routers, we could be making significant energy savings.

      I would think a quicker return from suspend or hibernate would be more useful.

      Returning from hibernate performs a full hardware boot (including BIOS POST) -- hibernate merely restores the user-space memory from disk.

    3. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      Sure. That's fine for a desktop or a laptop that you hardly ever travel with. However, if you need to reboot a server boot time matters and if you travel a lot (even just on a corporate or college campus) boot time matters.

    4. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by xouumalperxe · · Score: 2, Informative

      The two reasons for ever-on PCs is either when the user doesn't like to wait the (in my case) minutes for the boot sequence to run through: whether that's Linux or Microsoft, it's far too long. (...)

      Getting the the boot sequence to go down to a few seconds is a great step forwards, but after that I still need the following applications open: Mail, Browser, Media Player (and possibly a couple more, depending whether it's the work computer, home desktop, or home laptop). Plus having those apps' sessions just right.

      A good sleep implementation allows you to easily pick up where you left off, which is still a serious advantage.

    5. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of us keep our machines running all the time. I would think a quicker return from suspend or hibernate would be more useful.

      And I don't understand why you need your PC to run 24/7. Have you ever noticed there's a bright yellow spot in the sky? You should check it out sometime..

    6. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Yes, exactly. I keep my 7-year-old iMac asleep most of the time, so that I have a completely usable machine in two seconds. As a bonus, it's exactly where I left it last, with all windows and programs still open. Rebooting isn't a common activity.

    7. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

      I don't get what the big deal is either. How about just making systems more stable, so you don't HAVE to reboot? Hell, other than the occasional bluescreen because the unsanctioned nVidia driver is acting up, or mandatory reboot after a driver update, I don't think I've rebooted my laptop since I got it (going on 5 months now). It was the same with my previous system - as soon as I got working drivers installed for everything, crashes disappeared and the thing would run for months on end... all on XP, mind you.

      Even faster resume-from-suspend times wouldn't really be interesting at all - even on XP (supposedly they're faster already on Vista and Win7 - didn't notice much of a difference, TBH) they're already so fast that the amount of time I spend waiting for the system is lower than the amount of time I spend typing my 20 character password - and I'm a pretty fast typer.

    8. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      laptops. even for suspend, bios can eat up a good few seconds. and if the os boots in 10 seconds, well... that's faster than the suspend on my laptop.

      If you only have like 30 minutes to use a laptop (say during commute), you don't want to waste a minute (or 2-4 minutes) starting up your machine.

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    9. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by klubar · · Score: 1

      It's just the annoyance factor... not only has your machine just crashed, but now you have to wait -- what seems like a long time -- for it to reboot. Because desktops are rarely rebooted, the the restarts generally occur when someone is watching (no one cares how long the reboot takes at 3 AM after the updates are downloaded).

      That said, our Windows XP machines almost never crash--probably over a year between an unexpected reboot (most are from software installs.) If you want to keep your XP (Mac, Linux) desktop machines stable, don't install crap drivers and don't run as administrator. Almost all the problems come from bad drivers (just say no to unsigned drivers) or mis-use of admin rights.

    10. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by GreatBunzinni · · Score: 1

      if computers didn't had such a long boot time then there wouldn't be such a need for suspend to RAM, let alone suspend to disk. A basic auto desktop session save feature, which is already present for years in DEs such as KDE, would do the trick just fine, no added tech needed nor extra kernel voodoo.

      --
      Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
    11. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Yes, we do, and that is wasteful. With faster boot and support for wake-on-lan in routers, we could be making significant energy savings.

      Boot times have exactly zero to do with why I leave my PCs on all the time and, I suspect, the same is true for the vast majority of people who also do so.

    12. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by MadKeithV · · Score: 1

      A good sleep / hibernate implementation that doesn't use much (or any) power would be indistinguishable from hyperfast booting.

    13. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

      Waking up after a hibernate or sleep is down to the operating system - but the BIOS still has to boot, so this improvement will help your wake-up time just as much as your boot time.

    14. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

      My office is 90% laptops. (5000 of them). We are obsessive about boot times, because people travel to a client site, then boot up the machine to get to work. When they have to wait 10 minutes to have a usable computer, and they might be going to 2-3 (sometimes more) client sites in a day.. that adds up real quick. But then again, you have to have encryption software, AV software, etc. Its a constant battle.

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    15. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't understand the obsession with short boot times.
      Most of us keep our machines running all the time. I would think a quicker return from suspend or hibernate would be more useful.


      This quote perfectly illustrates the extreme disconnect between the typical slashdotter and the average user. Most computer users do not in fact leave their computers on all the time. And they also reboot after installing an application or if something starts acting funny (they don't know which processes to kill in top or Task Manager). So yes, this will be an enormous benefit for the majority of computer users.

    16. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Trogre · · Score: 1

      This BIOS will give a quicker return from hibernate.
      Hibernation, of course, involving powering down the machine. The rest is just loading enough of the OS to read the hibernation file back into memory and restore the appropriate state registers.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    17. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Have you ever noticed there's a bright yellow spot in the sky? You should check it out sometime..

      Didn't anyone ever tell you that looking directly at sun is bad for your eyes? Are you trying to kill us or something?

    18. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by ozydingo · · Score: 1

      "I keep my [computer] asleep most of the time, so that I have a completely usable machine in two seconds."

      And you don't see the potential benefit of a quick boot time?

    19. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by ejtttje · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I've always just preferred to 'sleep'. I never turn my laptop off, I just close the lid.
      The obsession with the boot time benchmark has always struck me as rather strange considering it's something I only do once every month or two.
      On the other hand, I guess 'PC's generally go through BIOS check when coming back from a full hibernate, so this would help their response time there. But I've never really noticed significant battery drain on my Mac in normal 'sleep' mode, which then wakes up instantly. *shrug*

    20. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by xtracto · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A good sleep / hibernate implementation that doesn't use much (or any) power would be indistinguishable from hyperfast booting.

      You do know that the hibernate (suspend to disk) function does not require any power (once the computer enters in hibernation state).

      What we need is very fast hibernation algorithms implemented in fast non-volatile memory such as Flash or MRAM.

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    21. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      From a power grid standpoint, you're correct. From a user standpoint, I'm starting to think that speeding up the startup/shutdown times on computers is the better way to go.

      As a laptop user who commutes, I've found that both sleep and hibernate have their issues. Sleep is very fast to go into and come out of, but switching batteries means rebooting anyway. hibernation lets me switch batteries, but I've got 4 gigs of RAM. even with 2x7200RPM hard drives in a RAID-0, going into and out of hibernation takes about as much time as shutting down and starting up. With THAT much RAM (and even 6GB and 8GB equipped units being sold retail now), hibernate will become more and more of a challenge to keep relevant.

    22. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      resuming from hibernate has to go trough the BIOS initialisation, but not sleep mode.

    23. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May be that's in america? I've lived and worked all along europe, and you ALWAYS turn off your computer when you go home or to sleep (like when you go into an hotel, eletricity cuts off the moment you leave your room)

    24. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For us in the 2nd category, i would really love to see OSes add in some low-power modes. (not those crappy laptop low-power modes)

      Most of the crap running through a computer doesn't even need to happen to, say, download a huge file overnight.
      Graphics could be turned off and run on a very simple GUI done by the CPU.
      Sound could go quite easily.
      And so on.
      Most processes, besides the ones you select from a list, could be put on hold. (AV and such could be flagged to always run unless you explicitly disable them, that could go in the Advanced tab)

      It would require a rethink of the lower bowels of most OS architectures, but it is doable.

    25. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      1) Laptops.
      2) Buggy suspend-to-disk implementations.

    26. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by maxume · · Score: 1

      The savings aren't going to be that marvelous, the power supply for my laptop is only 65 watts, which means that it probably isn't consuming more than about 570 kilowatt hours per year (Given that it can be on and charge the battery, I would guess that it uses less than 65 watts most of the time...).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    27. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so ... you don't apply updates ?

    28. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      You use those things on your home desktop and laptop at night, while you're sleeping?
       
      Really, if your computer boots in 10 seconds, just turn the damn thing off when you're not using it.

      Plus having those apps' sessions just right.

      What? Your apps aren't configurable, and don't pick up where you left off? Are you using an Etch A Sketch?

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    29. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Any+Web+Loco · · Score: 1

      You & your mates != everyone.

    30. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boot times have exactly zero to do with why I leave my PCs on all the time and, I suspect, the same is true for the vast majority of people who also do so.

      Yup, you're right.

      It's because you're too frickin' lazy to turn the damn thing off... :-P

      (I know that's the case with half the guys at my work - even though we have a corporate policy that all machines must be turned off, as there's a lot of updates & messaging that only gets done in the boot / login script processes)

    31. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Targon · · Score: 1

      The problem that I have with this sort of thinking is that PCs don't really end up costing us all that much on our electric bills, and if the overall electric usage were to drop, or costs were to drop, the consumer would see NO savings. Basically, if the computer being on costs $5 per month, that isn't enough for us to really care about at the current cost of living. If every person around the world were to work on conservation, that wouldn't reduce our bills by even one penny, because utility companies would just pocket the profits.

      Yes, this is selfish, but that really is the sort of thing you have to expect from the general populace. Doing the right thing and not getting anything back really is why many people just don't care about this stuff anymore. The big problem with sleep mode is that in MANY cases, the system doesn't wake up from sleep properly, with Wireless(802.11) returning from sleep and having the connection be restored and working perhaps 5 percent of the time. I am all for fast boot times, since I WOULD be more inclined to shut down when not using the computer, but I just don't expect any real personal benefits from shutting off a computer when it is not in use.

    32. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for your efforts towards climate change but the more responsible of us turn our machines off when they're not in use, so boot times do matter.

    33. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by dalleboy · · Score: 1

      $ uptime
      15:49:49 up 292 days, 5:54, 7 users, load average: 5.03, 4.68, 3.50

      $

    34. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      I call bullshit. Coming out of a hibernation state is *much* faster than a boot, because all your applications are open and ready to go exactly where you left off.

      My laptop has 4GB of RAM and a single 7200rpm drive and I can assure you it is much better hibernating than booting.

      In addition I can change batteries without loosing suspend, so you could do to get a better laptop if yours does not let you do that.

    35. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by pjr.cc · · Score: 1

      The only place i've ever found it useful is on the netbook where im booting up and down a fair bit and the only login is the encrypted disk login (right at the very beginning)... the rest of my machines I really dont care too much about fast boot times.

    36. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      I don't understand the point in shutting down at all. Ok, when I sleep, and it's not a server, and it has no work to do, then i will really shut it down. But I adapted that trick, where you not really shut down, but reboot, and then immediately hibernate. In the morning, I usually switch the computer on, and then go to to toilet. So from my perspective, even if I only have to pee, it's always instant-on. During the day, I would never switch it off. It has work to do anyway.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    37. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by psbrogna · · Score: 1

      I believe one of the significant factors that's driving this is the laptop & net-book crowd. They (we) shutdown the unit as often as possible to conserve battery life and often want to fire it up just to check e-mail or make a phone call.

    38. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      I don't understand the obsession with short boot times.

      Most of us keep our machines running all the time. I would think a quicker return from suspend or hibernate would be more useful.

      Hibernation just saves the contents of RAM to disk, then turns off the system. When you turn it back on, it still has to go through POST before it can load everything back into RAM. This new BIOS should let you start resuming from hibernation in one second too.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    39. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by MadKeithV · · Score: 1

      My bad, I meant to add "fast" there (implied in "good"). Thus, if hibernate would be truly fast, stored to nonvolatile ram, ideally maybe even continously, you'd have pretty much instant on/off capability.

    40. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Why would they do that? I boot my laptop once every month or so. In between, I close the lid and it suspends (to RAM and to disk, so if the battery goes flat I don't lose anything, but if it doesn't it's back and usable in 2-3 seconds). Rebooting a laptop - a machine with a built-in UPS - seems crazy. Not only do you have to go through the boot process (which doesn't take too long), you also have to reopen documents and get everything back to the state it was in before you shut down before you can continue working. Speeding up boot times sounds like fixing the wrong problem.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    41. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by doobydoobydoo · · Score: 1

      In theory, a hybrid sleep mode that actually worked would help achieve the same thing (similar power savings), but in my experience it often just doesn't work properly.

    42. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Ultra64 · · Score: 1

      So have them click "Standby" instead of "Shutdown" when they are done with the laptop.

    43. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by tepples · · Score: 1

      Almost all the problems come from bad drivers (just say no to unsigned drivers)

      Which in turn means just saying no to peripherals that aren't produced for the mass consumer market, such as products made by and for hobbyists.

      or mis-use of admin rights.

      Would you prefer to run legacy programs that require administrative rights in a separate virtual machine under a separate licensed, paid-for copy of the operating system?

    44. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have a shitload of RAM and only have one or two programs up and running it may actually be quicker to shut down and reboot your laptop than to hibernate / wake it. I don't understand the obsession with long uptimes.

    45. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by herojig · · Score: 1

      So true. In South Asia, you can't depend on electricity being there at any given moment, and if even if you have an inverter running with a bank of batteries like i do, if PCs are off, it means you can run something else, like a TV - even longer. Some orgs and biz even use fossil fuel generators for loadshedding times, and those folks require that most everything is shut down when not in use. However, being American, I hate it. I am genetically programmed to leave anything electrical on at all times. I grew up in the age of county fairs and the all electric home display (a double-wide with every conceivable electrical appliance running full bore). For me, it was a sign of progress and development. Now I live in a village where candles are high-tech, but I still want my iMac on all the time...

      --
      I think therefore I can't be ~TTNH
    46. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by qw0ntum · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call the second group "power users". Practically everyone I know on my university campus puts their machines to sleep rather than shutting down precisely because they have tasks running in the background. I think it's a result of the highly mobile nature of people here: working in the library, then on to class, then somewhere else, etc. The applications we're talking about are browser sessions (say, 30 tabs open doing some kind of research) or editing documents, so I think this type of behavior is well within the reach of people most of us would not consider "power users".

      --
      'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
    47. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      coming out is a bit of a crapshoot and depends on what I am running. Yes, whether Photoshop was opened before hibernate or after startup, it still adds to the time of ultimately opening Photoshop. But comparing going into and coming out of hibernate on Win7 to a plain desktop (no apps) to shutdown and startup, it's only a nominal gain at best.

      I figured that at some point someone involved in making laptops had to say to themselves, "self! we should add a capacitor or two in the power chain to hold suspend for 10-20 seconds while the user swaps batteries!" Apparently, that guy's idea didn't make it into my Dell XPS M1730.

    48. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Laptops. Even returning from suspend and hibernate will be faster if the BIOS gets out of the way sooner.

    49. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      So stop using Windows. KDE saves all those things for me when I shut down and restart.

    50. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One second to grub means one second until you can begin loading the hibernate image.

    51. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      What? Your apps aren't configurable, and don't pick up where you left off? Are you using an Etch A Sketch?

      You completely missed the point. Suspend/sleep means just that: you put what you're doing on hold. You have ten browser tabs open when you go to bed, they're still there when you wake up. You leave work with a slashdot post half-typed, you get home and the post is still waiting to be finished. Playing a game of tetris? It's still on pause when you recover from sleep. There's a lot of session information that's not a matter of configuration, and you lose most of it by shutting down.

    52. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      As good as KDE's session management might be, I'm spoilt by the joy of detaching a screen session and reattaching it from elsewhere.

    53. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Wow, you're really stretching it. You need to pause your game of tetris, because starting over would be too onerous a task? You let slashdot posts sit for a day, and then finish them, well after the article is gone off the front page?
       
      Those are really stupid reasons to prefer sleep over a 10 second boot time. As for the tabs comment, it's even moreso. 1) Firefox is fully capable of restarting with the tabs which were open when it was closed. In fact, I think I turn that default off on each install. 2) Right-click -> bookmark all tabs.
       
      You're stretching hard to find examples of things which you can't save the state of on power down. A 20 year old game? Partial-posts to a website? Could you come up with something semi-legitimate?

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    54. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by noidentity · · Score: 1

      I don't see much of a relative benefit to quick booting when we have already had sleep/hibernate for at least a decade. It doesn't matter much how long booting takes with the latter, because you don't boot very often.

    55. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      Because comparing Junk size just left everyone depressed.

    56. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by EvilIdler · · Score: 1

      My gaming computer has CPUs and GPUs up the wazoo, with matching fans. It's noisy. I switch it off when not playing anything, and keep a quiet Mac or two handy for actual work.

    57. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by klubar · · Score: 1

      Actually I was talking about the corporate/small biz environment. At work there is no reason for 99% of the users to need devices with unsigned drivers or programs that require admin right. If there is the odd case or so of a researcher, lab, etc that needs those things, give it to him or her---their machine will not be a stable and might crash more. Just a trade off..

    58. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by dwinks616 · · Score: 0

      I've got an Acer Timeline (9 hours of battery on a 6 cell) and it has a 65 watt power supply. I can tell you for sure that I've monitored its power usage and at idle is is below 10 watts, which comes out to 88 kilowatt hours, or about 9 bucks a year to run at $0.10 a kilowatt hour. Factor in suspend mode and sleep (when the lid is closed) and it works out to significantly less than even that.

    59. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by atamido · · Score: 1

      I recently accrued an old Shuttle PC and installed Windows XP on it for a media center. Suspend worked just fine, except that when I measured power usage, I found little savings.

      Idle: 60W
      Suspend: 55W
      Hibernate: 5W.

      In the end, I ended up having to hibernate the system, which is sad because I can't power it on remotely with the keyboard anymore.

    60. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    61. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by izomiac · · Score: 1

      63% of the computers sold in 2009 were laptops. Most people turn laptops on and off several times per day. For students, a slow boot time could mean they have to arrive at class earlier if they take notes using their computer. For employers it's time that their employees aren't working.

      Faster resume from hibernation would probably work, except that it tends to be unreliable. Dual booters shouldn't even consider it.

    62. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by arminw · · Score: 1

      ....more people would switch off and stop wasting power....

      Why bother switching off your computer? Simply put it to sleep by closing the lid, like I do on my MacBook Pro. The amount of power used in sleep mode is not worth talking about, yet the computer comes back to life almost instantly when the lid is opened. The only time I reboot is for certain system updates. It is usually not necessary to reboot for a normal software update or otherwise installing application programs. Maybe a quick boot time gives Slashdot users some bragging rights, but to me, it is totally irrelevant.

      --
      All theory is gray
    63. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by arminw · · Score: 1

      ...MANY cases, the system doesn't wake up from sleep properly,....

      That is relatively rare with Apple's OS X computers, because they test the hardware and the operating system to make sure it all works correctly. Because PC manufacturers have a much harder time doing this, because they do not control the operating system, it is true that many systems do not sleep and wake up properly. Chalk up another advantage to a Mac.

      --
      All theory is gray
    64. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by arminw · · Score: 1

      ....that's faster than the suspend on my laptop....

      I would guess that you just need a better laptop. My MacBook Pro wakes from sleep in about 2 seconds, which is about the time I need to open the lid and position it properly.

      --
      All theory is gray
    65. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Mafia$oft · · Score: 1
      Pffft, peanuts!

      Real men do that with their entire GUI on the trip...

      http://ldn.linuxfoundation.org/article/gtk2-let-application-follow-you

      (NO, I haven't been using that, but it's damn tempting)

    66. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by IANAAC · · Score: 1

      Most people turn laptops on and off several times per day.

      If you're turning your laptop on and off several times a day, something's wrong. Really. I can suspend my laptop and drive for 2 or so hours to where I need to be, then resume with no noticeable difference in charge. Maybe a couple of percentages.

      I have an extended battery on my HP Pavilion that lasts close to 5 hours running Linux (Opensuse in my case). That's WAY more than enough time for me to find an outlet and recharge if I need to.

      Seriously, this whole "I have to shut down to conserve electricity" thing is overblown. As has been previously noted in these threads, electricity costs just aren't there.

    67. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by izomiac · · Score: 1

      I'm basing that assertion on observations of how my classmates use their laptops (technically competent, but not savvy). Personally, I use standby between lectures, and reboot back and forth at night since I triple boot.

      My classmates rarely use standby. Perhaps they are unaware of it, but I don't think I've seen someone pull a laptop out of their bag and not wait for it to boot. OTOH, many will switch batteries, which does require a shutdown. Neither a standard nor extended battery will get through 8 hours of lecture with only an hour to charge during lunch, although I think the netbooks come close.

      As for power costs, powertop is currently estimating my laptop's power usage at 20 W. If I kept it on for an extra twelve hours per day that would cost $7 per year, which is negligible. OTOH, a desktop can use between three and ten times that figure, which is significant.

      I personally got into the habit of shutting my laptop down back when I had a desktop replacement with a P4. It would literally raise the temperature of my dorm room by a degree or two, and constantly made fan noise..

    68. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      My eee PC tends to burn 5% of it's battery per hour when it's suspended, and I haven't gotten around to setting it up to hibernate. It's not just the boot time, it's that a lot of what causes the boot times to increase is bloat that is generally problematic for the system.

    69. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by ozydingo · · Score: 1

      If you're really trying to save battery when you're on the go all day, faster boot > sleep. For some reason, my laptop takes longer to resume-from-hibernate than to boot up, so I rarely use that feature anymore. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. If it resume-from-hibernate were faster, then I'd agree with you.

    70. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by vaporland · · Score: 1

      you must not be using XP or Vista. at one job I had a Vista machine that took 10 minutes to settle down to usability.

      --
      Ask Me About... The 80's!
    71. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if a PC booted in sub 1-second, more people would switch off and stop wasting power - and then marvel at the savings they make.

      The two reasons for ever-on PCs is either when the user doesn't like to wait the (in my case) minutes for the boot sequence to run through: whether that's Linux or Microsoft, it's far too long.

      The second reason is when they're running stuff in that background: a server or data collection, or just a long download,. Obviously in this case, faster booting won't help but ignoring these power-users (which is probably a big proportion of the /. base, so there's no need to identify yourselves - I get it), if it gets a few million more PCs turned off then it's a good thing.

      Great, so now I have a "desktop" in 2 seconds. Now wait another 30 seconds for Windoze to reconnect all the network resources. Wait longer for a bunch of other system-level crap to load up, see that I told it not to load on startup, and then halt. etc.
      Then I get to wait for all my applications to load, starting with the AV probably- while this is admittadly not MS's fault, the time from the desktop showing up and LOOKING like it's done booting until you can ACTUALLY use the damn thing is just as long. All they did was re-arrange stuff to make it appear usable faster, and that's not really speeding things up at all.

    72. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You miss the point, it is windows that they are talking about. Just think about it. Time is money and a network person will spend more time on working that watching the PC rebooting.

    73. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by sakari · · Score: 1

      Please, for the love of nature and life, at least use power saving if your computer supports it! I bet we could feed the starving children of Africa saved by the power used by idle computers everywhere. And don't get me started on people who leave their computers on when they leave the workplace!

    74. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by toddestan · · Score: 1

      You may want to go into the BIOS and check to see if the "ACPI Standby State" (or similar) is set to "S3". That's the lowest power usage, where basically only the RAM is left powered to hold its state. The other option, "S1" leaves almost everything powered, including the fans and sometimes even the HDDs, so it saves very little power.

    75. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by atamido · · Score: 1

      Wow, you were totally right. I checked and the BIOS was set to use S1 instead of S3. I set it to S3 and the power usage during standby dropped to 4 Watts.

      The funny thing is that it uses 5 Watts while off, so it uses less power while in standby than while off.

    76. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Glad I could be of help :) Though I have no idea why the standby power usage would be less than the "off" usage.

    77. Re:I don't understand the obsession... by atamido · · Score: 1

      Possibly something extra is being powered down. My first guess is the network adapter is normally powered on while the system is off to provide features like Wake On Lan. The Standby mode could actually power off the network adapter, saving an extra Watt.

  12. at least read the title! by marjancek · · Score: 1

    Phoenix Instant Boot BIOS **starts** loading Windows in under a second That means that the BIOS boots fast.

    1. Re:at least read the title! by aicrules · · Score: 1

      True, but if you at least read the summary you'll see that they had test scenarios of Windows 7 Desktop in 20 seconds on a dell and under 10 second on an IBM.

    2. Re:at least read the title! by marjancek · · Score: 1

      They added that later.

  13. On a Notebook! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, they show this on a notebook which naturally have a rather fixed set of hardware components. On most notebooks the BIOS POST runs much faster than on Desktop PCs also.

  14. Re:moderation goof by GaryOlson · · Score: 1

    this has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Moderation needs an Undo

    --
    Every mans' island needs an ocean; choose your ocean carefully.
  15. So they just took out the POST? by erroneus · · Score: 1

    The reason PCs take so long to get to the part where it boots an OS is because it, by default, does a POST. POST is Power On Self Test. It is a diagnostic procedure to make sure the machine is working correctly before continuing on into the OS. This can save a lot of troubleshooting Suppose a second hard drive or some other system device that is not critical to booting the OS? You might think the problem is software/driver related. If the problem is memory failure of some type that doesn't manifest itself until it reaches a temperature or simply a bad bit somewhere up there that isn't read or written until a memory hungry application calls for it, a POST might catch it.

    But if you turn POST off or do only a minimal check, your boot time becomes faster! What a surprise right?

    And I noticed that it is called UEFI. Will it boot MacOSX?

    And of course, "Will it run Linux?"

    1. Re:So they just took out the POST? by rwade · · Score: 1

      POST is Power On Self Test. It is a diagnostic procedure to make sure the machine is working correctly before continuing on into the OS. This can save a lot of troubleshooting Suppose a second hard drive or some other system device that is not critical to booting the OS? You might think the problem is software/driver related. If the problem is memory failure of some type that doesn't manifest itself until it reaches a temperature or simply a bad bit somewhere up there that isn't read or written until a memory hungry application calls for it, a POST might catch it.

      Seriously, when was the last time that your PC's bios POST actually found something amiss? If a hard drive fails, it's pretty obvious. Beside that, HDD failure is very rare.

      Failure of memory is even more rare. The only way for it to happen is on install by static-ing it. If the system doesn't work right after you install the memory, it's pretty obvious that the stick install did it without the POST.

    2. Re:So they just took out the POST? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Failure of memory is even more rare. The only way for it to happen is on install by static-ing it. If the system doesn't work right after you install the memory, it's pretty obvious that the stick install did it without the POST.

      On top of that, my experience is that the POST ram check will very rarely identify bad ram, even when the problems are rather severe it will still say "OK". For that reason I always disable the ram check as I see it as a waste of time and use Memtest86 if I suspect something amiss.

  16. Lipstick on a Pig by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 0, Troll

    As the saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig.
    So, this means you get that much faster to the crap Windows OS. I am so happy that my company switched to Macs for all developers and that at home I have another Mac.
    Windows is still Windows and so it doesn't matter how fast it boots.

    1. Re:Lipstick on a Pig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And in soviet russia the pig sticks on your lip.

      Get back under your bridge, trollboy :)

    2. Re:Lipstick on a Pig by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 1

      Mr. Ballmer, sorry I forgot you resembled a pig... So does your company.

    3. Re:Lipstick on a Pig by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      As the saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig. So, this means you get that much faster to the crap Windows OS... Windows is still Windows and so it doesn't matter how fast it boots.

      Yeah, because speeding up the BIOS wouldn't affect other operating systems equally.

      Wait, that's not right...

  17. Combine it with Moblin by Lemming+Mark · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Intel's Moblin boots incredibly fast. Their early prototypes got to desktop in 5 seconds. Here's a video of Moblin 2.0, possibly taking a bit longer than that but it's also probably a nicer desktop ;-)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqmuPFZ1RWo

    Moblin's aim, AFAIK, is to get you to a full *usable* desktop as quickly as possible. So unlike what Windows (unless they've improved this since XP, when I last checked!) and some Linux distros do you don't get your quickly loaded desktop bogged down by loads of services starting in the background. You get there, you're done (although you may still have to wait for the network to connect but whatever you do won't be wallowing whilst other stuff loads).

    1. Re:Combine it with Moblin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      awesome i was going to watch some pr0n tonight but now i have this!

  18. Debug mode? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I Hate it when the system boots so fast and I do not have time to see what the bios is kicking out. There are times when I have to look at somebodies system and that info is useful. Yet, I have to go through multiple re-boots to be able to catch it. A simple debut switch that either slows it way down, or will pause it at more screens would be equally useful

    1. Re:Debug mode? by Shikaku · · Score: 1

      Press the pause key. Take a guess what happens if it is pressed while the BIOS is loading.

    2. Re:Debug mode? by LoverOfJoy · · Score: 1

      Is there an alternative key? My laptop doesn't seem to have a pause key.

    3. Re:Debug mode? by Shikaku · · Score: 1

      External Keyboard.

  19. interviewer by FunkyELF · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    The interviewer was an idiot.

    1. Re:interviewer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for letting us know.

  20. Hilarious video by blind+biker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Don't take my word for it, take Microsoft's word" !!!

    I think I'm going to trust a random schmuck any day rather than Microsoft.

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    1. Re:Hilarious video by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I think I'm going to trust a random schmuck any day rather than Microsoft.

      What if the random schmuck is Bernie Madhoff, Sony, or Rod Blagoyavich? I'd trust Microsoft before I trusted a convicted felon, a company that rooted my PC, or a corrupt politician.

    2. Re:Hilarious video by ChefInnocent · · Score: 1

      But Microsoft is nearly all of those. Microsoft has broken many laws, but has good enough lawyers their game isn't up yet. They've done more than rooted your PC, they Pwn most. As a corporation, they cannot "be" a politician (yet), but they likely pay a few, and we all know they lobby hard.

      So, maybe Mr. Madoff and Blago aren't so bad. They're just small time crooks when stacked against Microsoft.

    3. Re:Hilarious video by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Microsoft has broken many laws

      I don't know of any felonies they've committed.

      but has good enough lawyers their game isn't up yet.

      If you shoot someone and your lawyer plea bargains your case down to a misdemeanor, you're not a felon.

      They've done more than rooted your PC, they Pwn most.

      The most they've done to my PC is inconvinience me. I haven't read about Microsoft remotely disabling apps, like XCP did. XCP disabled my P2P software and my CD burner -- they're vandals. How am I supposed to download indie music without P2P? How am I supposed to burn indie CDs that say on the cover "be kind, burn a copy for your friend?" How am I supposed to burn that distro's ISO. As much as Microsoft annoys me, they have yet to vandalize my computer.

      As a corporation, they cannot "be" a politician (yet), but they likely pay a few, and we all know they lobby hard.

      Their bribery is legal, trying to sell a Senate seat is not just a felony, it's reprehensible (yes, I agree that MS has done some reprehensible things, but nothing as bad as that).

    4. Re:Hilarious video by Drinking+Bleach · · Score: 1

      I don't know of any felonies they've committed.

      United States v. Microsoft

      The most they've done to my PC is inconvinience me. I haven't read about Microsoft remotely disabling apps,

      Ever heard of Windows Product Activation or Windows Genuine Advantage [sic]? And before you counter it--- yes, they have disabled legitimate users before (slashdot had a whole hoopla about it).

    5. Re:Hilarious video by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      US v MS was a civil case IIRC from the newspapers. There are a lot of documents in that link; the "findings of fact" document doesn't have the word "felony" in it even one time. Can you be more specific?

      As to WPA and WGA, yes, those are bad but they're nowhere near as bad as XCP.

      I'm no fan of Microsoft; I absolutely hate the hoops you have to jump through to get their OSes installed, especially the long string you have to type in followed by activation. I by far prefer Mandriva, and as I haven't done any gaming in a long time I doubt the next PC I build will have any MS software on it at all.

  21. Hey Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're going to have to do something!

    I use an Apple Macbook Pro. It's slow as hell. Especially when you run Firefox.

  22. Re:moderation goof by erroneus · · Score: 1

    Actually, it has a lot to do with it.

    I use Linux and I hate rebooting. Not because it takes a long time to boot -- it doesn't -- it takes maybe 30 seconds. It is because it is an interruption. When someone has to reboot frequently such as Windows users, reducing the time it takes to boot becomes increasingly important.

    So when Microsoft hears "I hate rebooting all the time" they don't focus as much on the OS and the way it hosts applications, they focus on how fast the system can reboot. I will be the first to say that Microsoft has made terrific progress in patching their OS to make it better and more stable and reliable. But if the name "Apache" wasn't already taken by the web server, we would start using that name to describe Windows -- it is very patchy and requires reboots frequently... less frequently than before, but still a lot more frequently than others.

    So by addressing the time it takes to reboot, they can improve the amount of uptime. And this actually enables more reboots too. If it takes 60 seconds to reboot before this new tech, that limits the number of reboots you can perform in an hour to 60 or less. But if it takes 10 seconds to reboot, you can reboot a lot more than 60 times in an hour.

  23. This is progress... by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 1

    now I can go from start to BSOD in less than a minute.

  24. OSX by iLLucionist · · Score: 0

    Nothing new here. My Mac has been doing this for the past 4 years or so. Ok, it's hibernation actually, but still: I can get to work almost immediately for over years now.

    1. Re:OSX by MrHanky · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, it hasn't, and if it had, it would have nothing to do with OS X, and waking a computer from suspend has nothing to do with the BIOS POST time. Why do you Mac fags insist on advertising your computers -- fraudulently! -- every time something vaguely related comes up?

    2. Re:OSX by iLLucionist · · Score: 1

      BECAUSE it makes me feel special. What else should I do with my overpriced, overdesigned, only 2-USB-ports, MacBook Pro except for showing off? Gonna actually use it? Don't get me started!

  25. Equivalent Exchange by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

    This is good news! Your bios will allow you to recover in small 1-minute increments those 20 hours you just spent upgrading to windows 7.

    http://www.downloadsquad.com/2009/09/12/windows-7-upgrade-could-take-20-hours-reasons-to-do-a-clean-in/

  26. Why the obsession with instaboots? by The+Ultimate+Fartkno · · Score: 1

    Seriously. Hit the power switch and go occupy yourself for a minute or so. Drink some coffee. Read some Baudelaire. Have some private time on the john making twosies. Whatever.

    I know that it's a nice goal to aim for, but having Windows up and running in 2.3 seconds just isn't a reason to get all frothy and rabid for me. YMMV.

    1. Re:Why the obsession with instaboots? by ozydingo · · Score: 1

      When you're working on the go with a laptop rather than casually on a desktop the story changes. Frequently doing the former, I personally would love faster boot times.

    2. Re:Why the obsession with instaboots? by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      Seriously. Hit the power switch and go occupy yourself for a minute or so. Drink some coffee. Read some Baudelaire. Have some private time on the john making twosies. Whatever

      You are right that boot times on user workstations don't matter so much.

      However boot times on servers are much more important. Say you have a power cut, your UPS fails and you have 10 racks of stuff to get up and running PDQ. You really will care about the 3 minutes extra per server you spend watching it POST check ram and scan for SCSI disks before it even gets to the filesystem checks.

      Those extra minutes could be spent fixing the things that came up in the wrong order and testing the critical services are serving.

    3. Re:Why the obsession with instaboots? by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      However boot times on servers are much more important. Say you have a power cut, your UPS fails and you have 10 racks of stuff to get up and running PDQ. You really will care about the 3 minutes extra per server you spend watching it POST check ram and scan for SCSI disks before it even gets to the filesystem checks.

      If you cared that much, you'd have contingency plans in place so that how long those servers took to restart didn't matter.

    4. Re:Why the obsession with instaboots? by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      If you cared that much, you'd have contingency plans in place so that how long those servers took to restart didn't matter.

      Contingency plans can fail too and depend on having enough budget.

      Can you provide examples of how contingency plans fit into every possible IT failure?

      Sorry, just could not resist ending that with one of the pointless leading questions you are so fond of.

    5. Re:Why the obsession with instaboots? by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Contingency plans can fail too and depend on having enough budget.

      If the business isn't prepared to pony up the money, then it clearly doesn't consider that particular risk significant. This is not the fault of the admin or the software.

      To the specific example given, however, the point is simple: if the time it takes to reboot a machine (or, indeed, the fact you need to reboot a machine at all) has a negative impact on availability, then your architecture is either broken or fundamentally incapable of providing the service level demanded of it. This is true regardless of what OS you're running.

      Individual machine downtime - *especially* scheduled downtime - should not affect service delivery. If it does, your architecture is fundamentally broken and the person who designed and/or approved it has failed in their job.

      Can you provide examples of how contingency plans fit into every possible IT failure?

      If you list some potential failure scenarios, I'm sure I can come up with a plan to cover pretty much all of them.

    6. Re:Why the obsession with instaboots? by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      Contingency plans can fail too and depend on having enough budget.

      If the business isn't prepared to pony up the money, then it clearly doesn't consider that particular risk significant. This is not the fault of the admin or the software.

      If it's IT, medical treatment, or serving food in a cafe the principle is the same. You do the best with what you have got, you will not have an unlimited budget of money and time no matter where you work or what you do. When something unexpected happens it's never acceptable to blame people or tools, save it for later when all the facts are in.

      If you list some potential failure scenarios, I'm sure I can come up with a plan to cover pretty much all of them.

      That's just foolish. Real world experience says you can't predict what's going to fail and you can't plan for what you don't expect.

      I really don't think you have ever worked in IT. I'm starting to wonder if you have ever worked -ANYWHERE-. Thinking on your feet is critical to any and all professions not just IT. Maybe freelance astroturfers are the exception to that.

    7. Re:Why the obsession with instaboots? by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      You do the best with what you have got, you will not have an unlimited budget of money and time no matter where you work or what you do.

      The point is that the competent and responsible admin has made sure the business is *already* aware of the potential risks in their systems before any goes wrong. Ie: he should not be under pressure to get a machine to reboot as quickly as possible because the fact that it takes X amount of time to do should already be known by everyone involved, all of whom have agreed that X (more appropriately, several times X) is an acceptable period of unavailability for that machine. If X is not acceptable, then there should be a contingency plan in place to deal with the assumed failure and that plan should be put in effect when the failure happens.

      When something unexpected happens it's never acceptable to blame people or tools, save it for later when all the facts are in.

      I'm not quite sure why you think this is relevant. How long a machine takes to reboot is not "unexpected", nor are the consequences of a given machine being unavailable. If they are, then someone is grossly incompetent.

      That's just foolish. Real world experience says you can't predict what's going to fail and you can't plan for what you don't expect.

      If you can't predict - and propose steps to minimise, if not completely eliminate - the vast, vast majority of probable failure scenarios in your IT infrastructure, then you shouldn't be in any way involved in managing it.

      Here, let's go back to the original scenario:

      However boot times on servers are much more important. Say you have a power cut, your UPS fails and you have 10 racks of stuff to get up and running PDQ. You really will care about the 3 minutes extra per server you spend watching it POST check ram and scan for SCSI disks before it even gets to the filesystem checks.

      There is nothing in that paragraph that could be justifiably not predicted and communicated to the business. Power fails. UPSes fail. Sometimes machines just crash. However, they take known amounts of time to start. The time and steps taken to ascertain functionality after an outage are (or certainly should be) also known.

      I really don't think you have ever worked in IT. I'm starting to wonder if you have ever worked -ANYWHERE-.

      Heh. That's pretty funny coming from the person apparently suggesting it's impossible predict with any certainty what's going to happen when a machine reboots and one has to be "thinking on their feet" when it happens.

      Thinking on your feet is critical to any and all professions not just IT.

      Next time you find yourself "thinking on your feet", ask yourself how much of that time could have been spent "thinking on the sofa" beforehand.

    8. Re:Why the obsession with instaboots? by 1s44c · · Score: 1

      If you can't predict - and propose steps to minimise, if not completely eliminate - the vast, vast majority of probable failure scenarios in your IT infrastructure, then you shouldn't be in any way involved in managing it.

      If you really believe it you lack real world experience in ANY profession. It's idealist nonsense.

    9. Re:Why the obsession with instaboots? by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      If you really believe it you lack real world experience in ANY profession. It's idealist nonsense.

      Are you seriously trying to argue that it's difficult to identify the majority of potential failures in a given piece of IT infrastructure ? Do you really think that nearly all components - both hardware and software - cannot be made multiply redundant ?

  27. A Windows only concern by intheshelter · · Score: 1

    This is news for Windows users because they'll be rebooting all the time. I don't think the boot time is relevant to anyone else because they are not forced into rebooting all the time.

  28. so they bypass the basic ram and other checks that by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1, Informative

    so they bypass the basic ram and other checks that should be checked and also makes it hard to get into bios as the window goes by to quick.

  29. Fast by Wowsers · · Score: 3, Funny

    Boot Windows in 1 second. That's got to be a record time in how frustrated people are with Windows that they want to put the boot into it THAT fast!

    --
    Take Nobody's Word For It.
  30. More importantly by Cloud+K · · Score: 1

    How quickly does it shut down?

    Joking aside, I do usually find that OSX and in some cases Windows and even Linux can take longer to shut down than to start up. It makes logical sense as a startup environment is pretty much constant whilst shutdown always has different loose ends to tie. But until recently, it's always been the opposite.

    1. Re:More importantly by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Snow Leopard has improved shutdown time by basically killing applications if they are in a clean state : "To support improved shutdown, your application needs to mark itself as "dirty" or "clean," depending on whether it has unsaved changes and needs to do work before quitting, or can be terminated without further notice. When the system shuts down, clean applications are terminated (via SIGKILL) without further interaction."

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    2. Re:More importantly by Cloud+K · · Score: 1

      Good point, I'd forgotten about that. Good that at least one of the culprits is starting to think about it from both sides of the issue - although even in SL I still sometimes see that spinner going for a little longer than is comfortable.

      (When it comes to _perception_ of time, there's a lot to be said for progress bars such as those in Ubuntu as opposed to watching a spinner going round and round, but that's another story)

  31. Why is parent moderated funny? by fadir · · Score: 1

    That's not funny at all but the sad truth.
    Try installing any Windows system and you'll be happy about any second you safe during the many reboots!

    1. Windows install - reboot
    2. Some driver install - usually at least 1 reboot
    3. Windows update - rarely with 1 reboot only
    4. Some major application install - often another reboot ... that sums up pretty quickly. And if you try to install something older, like XP, the reboots for Windows update alone will costs you an endless amount of time.

    1. Re:Why is parent moderated funny? by ElSupreme · · Score: 1

      Or you can do all of those things, and have a single reboot.
      And I do use Ubuntu, but installing that is way harder. Install -- Video is all fucked up -- use windows computer to find information on installing a 3DFX Voodoo3 card -- and changing VESA drivers. Because my installed display is competly UNUSABLE. I also had problems getting 1920x1200 display working when I first got my monitor. I think this works out of the box for Ubuntu now though.
      That shit is so much easier than installing windows!

      OK so installing Ubuntu is actually pretty easy, but I almost ALWAYS have display problems (for whatever reason). Granted I have also had a problem putting WinServer2003 on my old P4 Dell, with NIC drivers. Which soluton was -- use Ubuntu computer to find Dell driver -- install and reboot. But that was a bit quicker than my display problems.

      But really who the fuck cares it takes a few reboots during an OS install. You do that at MOST twice a YEAR.

      --
      My addiction: Arguing with idiots. AKA Slashdot!
    2. Re:Why is parent moderated funny? by fadir · · Score: 1

      Besides the fact that lots of Windows updates enforce a reboot and don't even leave you a choice to install more, I've learned the painful way that there are situations when a reboot is really needed. Otherwise you might risk to shoot yourself in the knee.

  32. Re:in 10 seconds... by rcoxdav · · Score: 1

    I suggest you read the comments from the readers of that article, ripping the author's inaccuracies, before making such a statement.

  33. 2 Billion instructions a second? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Most instructions take more than one clock cycle and I doubt the boot up takes great advantage of multiple cores.

    1. Re:2 Billion instructions a second? by poptones · · Score: 1

      Dunno about windows, but ubuntu certainly does. They invested considerable resources into improving the startup procedure so that it runs as asynchronously as possible, thereby allowing each process to run in its own thread and/or core.

    2. Re:2 Billion instructions a second? by Peaker · · Score: 1

      I don't think any significant part of the boot process is CPU bound.

  34. Highly Optimized UEFI by Bruha · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Means Apple paid Intel to mangle it so it will not boot OS X. Is it any wonder that no EFI motherboards are on the market?

    1. Re:Highly Optimized UEFI by funkboy · · Score: 1

      Means Apple paid Intel to mangle it so it will not boot OS X.

      No. Apple's EFI implementation has enough of their own tricks & tweaks that any other hardware EFI implementation will have a very hard time booting vanilla OS X. So much so that they had to release Boot Camp to get EFI Macs to boot Windows (even for versions of Windows that support EFI natively).

      Is it any wonder that no EFI motherboards are on the market?

      You mean like this one?

    2. Re:Highly Optimized UEFI by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      Sure, Apple did it. Nothing at all to do with the most popular OS vendor not supporting it until 2008.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    3. Re:Highly Optimized UEFI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is this insightful? Phoenix made this bios, not Intel.

    4. Re:Highly Optimized UEFI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No they didn't.

      EFI isn't technically mangled on a Macintosh. It's the OS that is mangled.

      Apple encrypts a lot of their core service binaries (Finder, Dock, etc). These are decrypted on the fly when the OS loads them, using keys pulled from the Systems Management Controller- which is a tiny RISC core installed in every single Intel Macintosh, that also handles thermal and power management features (and on laptops, battery charging).

      You can try to boot OS X on a boring old EFI system. You might be missing the graphical features Apple hooks into, but assuming you get into single user mode somehow, you're not going to be able to use the WM features (Aqua/Finder/Dock) because those binaries are encrypted- and since you're missing the SMC chip that all Macintosh systems contain, you won't be able to decrypt the binaries.

      There are, of course, kernel plugins for Hackintosh systems that provide the features the SMC does in hardware, via software. That's how you get OS X to boot on a normal PC.

      But Apple hasn't paid anyone to mangle anything. They've simply improved EFI (graphical boot) in their own proprietary way, then hooked into the SMC chip to add additional protection (or DRM, take your term).

      -AC

    5. Re:Highly Optimized UEFI by maccodemonkey · · Score: 1

      Dunno. I had an Intel motherboard with EFI in 2006. Doesn't sound like a conspiracy to me. http://www.intel.com/products/motherboard/D975XBX/index.htm

    6. Re:Highly Optimized UEFI by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      ...Apple paid Intel to...not boot OS X.

      What?!

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
  35. Fast BIOS done before. by xlotlu · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is hardly some major breakthrough.

    Asus came up with a nice hack on their EeePC dubbed "Boot Booster". It dumps the system state right after POST on a HDD partition, and on subsequent boots it reads that straight into memory, so you have 1-second "POSTs" going straight to the bootloader.

    And then you have coreboot, which is as fast as the machine it runs on: without taking any shortcuts, it can do all the grunt work in 3 seconds or so.

    Maybe the breakthrough is Windows booting fast, but that's a different story.

  36. Re:moderation goof by EdZ · · Score: 3, Interesting

    After running Windows 7 for a while, one of my favourite things has been not needing to restart for installing updates. I've gone weeks on Vista with the "please restart to complete updating" message popping up periodically because it's just too much hassle to note down everything I have open and arranged, pause or cancel any running operations (if possible), then restart everything afterwards. This can take a good half an hour start to finish, which usually gets traded for half an hour of doing something useful. Hopefully, this should at least mean more people will keep Windows 7 up to date, even if it's just that average users will never even notice the automatic update process and thus never get annoyed and turn it off.

  37. Ain't we lucky we got em.... Boot Times! by gjyoung · · Score: 1, Informative

    I've had BIOS systems set to start to boot in under 2 seconds, I don't see any reason for the fanfare, especially since I got it to that time by telling it to skip all self tests and quick boot. Yawn.

  38. carpc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think its great. I love to see this come out very soon!!

    I would greatly benefit from it, my carputer takes 9 secs to starting loading the OS.

  39. Ubuntu 9.10 + SSD = 5 seconds boot by Graftweed · · Score: 4, Informative

    For the record, the upcoming Ubuntu 9.10 already boots in 5 seconds using a SSD.

    1. Re:Ubuntu 9.10 + SSD = 5 seconds boot by CajunArson · · Score: 1

      While the fast booting for Ubuntu is very impressive, I'm not sure if those statistics take into account the BIOS startup time before GRUB actually starts the OS booting. If the 10 seconds time in this story is from the time the power button is pushed until boot is completed, then this truly is a big improvement. Of course, the Ubuntu guys could take advantage of the UEFI spec too using a boot loader that handles EFI (I know of eLILO and I assume new versions of GRUB handle EFI too...).
          The BIOS/EFI manufacturers need to get on the ball, because the fast bootloaders coupled with SSDs mean than the firmware startup time may begin to dominate the overall boot time on consumer devices.

      --
      AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    2. Re:Ubuntu 9.10 + SSD = 5 seconds boot by Dotren · · Score: 1

      For the record, the upcoming Ubuntu 9.10 already boots in 5 seconds using a SSD.

      Just imagine, combined with the technology from the article, Ubuntu 9.10 could conceivably boot before your finger even makes it to the power button!

    3. Re:Ubuntu 9.10 + SSD = 5 seconds boot by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      Put Ubuntu 9.10 on a SSD and this new bios, and the system will be booted 4 seconds before you turn on the machine. Would be even faster than dissolving thiotimoline in water.

  40. Green Tech? by pasm · · Score: 1

    This is really good news for those of us who simply close the lid on the laptop at night. I do this (shutdown times aside) simply because I want it to start up quickly in the morning. This bleeds more out of my battery than shutting down properly (at least on my laptop). And as others note there is simply no reason why any other OS could not benefit from this too.

  41. How often do windows users reboot? by jcr · · Score: 1

    Great to be able to boot as fast as possible, but in normal usage I only put my Mac to sleep. It wakes up in the time it takes me to open the lid.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  42. How often do you boot your phone? by joh · · Score: 1

    Really, this obsession with boot times is maddening. Having sane and reliable support for sleep/hibernate is much more important. Why? Because just booting up your system gets you only half the way. You will have to launch your apps, open files to work on and so on. If you can just suspend and wake a system you can start working were you left off.

    I have only started to understand this after I got my Macbook. Close the lid, sleep. Open it, start working where I left it two seconds later.

  43. Re:OSX (Snow Leopard) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and with 10.6, shut-down speeds for an iMac go from 7 seconds to 4 seconds (and one second faster still for the MacBook Pro).

    But as other people have pointed out: start up (and shut down) times are nice, but it's how fast you can use programs when the computer's awake that matters. Getting a computer working for you is like having a person work for you: sure, it's nice to know they can jump out of bed quickly first thing in the morning, but it's important that they don't spend most of the day sitting around doing nothing.

  44. Nothing new by Masa · · Score: 1

    My eeePC does that same thing. The eeePC 901 jumps to GRUB in about second (haven't actually measured it, but it is fast).

  45. Re:moderation goof by maxume · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I reboot XP about once a month. I guess it helps me that I am not a complete idiot (obviously, by using Windows at all, I must be some level of idiot), but I don't think there are all that many people rebooting Windows multiple times per day.

    I often do stupid things like ignoring automatic updates for several weeks at a time (if none of them are fixes for remote exploits of software that I use, where's the hurry?).

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  46. Re:moderation goof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How often do you have to reboot? I use Vista at home and when doing something get interrupted to reboot maybe... once or twice a month for those important updates. A pain yes but hardly inconvenient. Or are you one of those people who demands their home computer stay on 24/7? Lemme rephrase that. Or are you one of those people who doesn't have to pay an electric bill and your computer stays idle for those 16 hours a day you're at work and sleeping?

  47. Fast Booting is Important by qazwart · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Fast booting is important because it means that you can actually turn your machine off instead of keeping it on all the time. I have a Mac Mini PowerPC which we never turn off because booting takes way too long.

    However, Windows "cheats" because it starts the sign on process before it is actually ready to begin. Various background processes are still starting up by the time you see your desktop. Other OS systems are taking similar approaches now. My Ubuntu Linux system comes up in less than 10 seconds after the BOIS check, but I still have to wait several seconds after I see my desktop before I am able to connect to my network. I can bring up FireFox as long as I don't have to load any remote webpages. I can create an email as long as I don't have to send it anywhere. So, fastbooting and shaving off the other 9 seconds doesn't exactly do me a world of good.

  48. (cough, cough) by ledow · · Score: 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=SzkQhHaFE0I

    That took me 2.5 seconds to find. And the PC is probably slower than that in the article. And it's probably nothing more than a fast bootloader and desktop boot on a normal EEEPC BIOS.

    So, given the lack of time it took to find this online with only a vague search and stopping at the first entry I found, what's new here?

    1. Re:(cough, cough) by ledow · · Score: 1

      Or here, demonstrating an internet connection in under 15 seconds from boot...

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6vSgE8yLmg&NR=1

  49. Re:moderation goof by ThomsonsPier · · Score: 1

    I believe you have misinterpreted the meaning of the previous post.

  50. Re:moderation goof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What decade are you living in? Please describe what you mean by rebooting a Windows box "frequently" I am not a MS fanboi, but seriously, if rebooting once a month or once every two months (for an home PC not a server) is defined as "frequently" I am shocked.

  51. Sitting through Windows shutdown by tepples · · Score: 1

    And why are you still sitting on your chair and watching the turning off screen while its going down?

    People have to sit through "Log out", which forms the first part of any shutdown, because applications present "Save changes?" alert boxes.

    People have to sit through "Install updates and shut down" because some updates to Windows (e.g. Internet Explorer, Malicious Software Removal) require acceptance of a license or otherwise have an interactive setup assistant.

    People have to sit through "Shut down" because they want to pack up the computer and take it elsewhere. Either it's a laptop whose drivers don't bring it out of suspend properly, or it's a desktop being taken to a LAN party.

    1. Re:Sitting through Windows shutdown by arminw · · Score: 1

      ....People have to sit through "Shut down".....

      It's just another reason to get a Mac which RELIABLY goes to sleep as soon as you close the lid on a laptop. When the computer is needed again, simply open the lid and by the time you get it fully opened and positioned, everything is just as it was before. Extremely few programs that can be installed on OS X require a reboot. All this means that boot time is not all that important, because it happens so infrequently. For windows computers, sleep or as they call it, hibernate, is much more iffy, because of hardware variability. Unlike other manufacturers, Apple makes the operating system and can test their hardware with their software to make sure it all "just works"every time.

      --
      All theory is gray
    2. Re:Sitting through Windows shutdown by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      No, sleep is sleep. Suspend is suspend, and hibernate is hibernate. They're all completely different levels of powered down.

      And I haven't had issues with any of them not working right on any Windows machine I've built or bought in the last several years.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
  52. Moblin: 0 to desktop in 5 seconds by tepples · · Score: 1

    Loading kernel / drivers, running init (including loading the libraries that it and its child processes need), starting the X server, and even reaching a login screen in 10 seconds would be impressive.

    YouTube has a video of GRUB to desktop in five seconds.

  53. Re:moderation goof by GravityStar · · Score: 1

    I use Linux and

    Oh stop it.
    My uptime is currently some 350 hours on my Game/Dev/browsing/multimedia WinXP machine. That's quite enough for me.

  54. OS on a Chip? How quaint by NetNinja · · Score: 1

    The Amiga was doing this in 1985

    The classic Amiga Operating System consists of Kickstart (including System API) and Workbench. In the Amiga 1000 model, Kickstart is first loaded from a floppy disk, followed by Workbench, or other bootable disk. Later models hold Kickstart (and system API) on a ROM, improving start-up times. Models can be upgraded by changing the ROM.

    Several third party vendors produced switchable socket doublers to allow two ROM chips to plug into the single ROM socket on the motherboard. This became more popular as later versions of the Amiga OS suffered some backwards compatibility problems with earlier Amiga software titles. The effect of these switchable doublers was a convenient dual boot system, with a choice of two distinct OS versions via a pre-determined key sequence at reboot, or via a two way switch installed in the case, depending on the specific version installed.

    The ROMs themselves are generally known as "Kickstart" and start with version 1.0 (A1000 floppy) and end with Kickstart 3.1. There are hardware and software packages that can "shadow" Kickstart into memory. This resulted in faster operation for functions dependent on the ROM, at the cost of system memory to store the ROM data.

  55. GDM by tepples · · Score: 1

    But why on earth would you start the X server before you get a login prompt?

    To start GDM. It's possible to preload a user's desktop environment while the user is typing his password. It's even faster if your PC has only one interactive user, in which case no login prompt is necessary.

  56. POST isnt the boot time that concerns me... by pjr.cc · · Score: 1

    One thing that used to annoy me with "getting to my lag-free desktop" (and lets face it, thtas what its all about) was that i'd turn on and have to wait for a login prompt... then login and wait for a responsive desktop. When fed 9 came out I decided to use the luks encrypted disk - this turned out to be quite a massive bonus in some ways because the thing asks me for a password so early in the boot process.

    I then turned on auto-login at the login screen and made firefox and evolution startup programs and wah lah my lifes (generally) alot simpler. i.e. turn on computer - 5 seconds later type in luks password - go make tea - come back to responsive desktop with my most used applications already open. A fast post is going to shave 5 seconds off my booting life? I really dont think im going to be that excited.

    What I would prefer though is a rock-solid hibernate/restore strategy, and the idea (a little while ago) about a machine that shutdown, boots up and then hibernates does actually appeal but what kills that strategy is my laptop (where it would be useful) cause at home i have no docking station and at work I do and the thing can never hibernate between the two.

  57. Faster boot into windows by russotto · · Score: 1

    Isn't a faster boot into windows like a faster elevator into Hell?

    1. Re:Faster boot into windows by Qubit · · Score: 1

      Isn't a faster boot into windows like a faster elevator into Hell?

      Yeah, but if you're headed there anyway, you just want to get there and be done with it. No sense in sitting around in the elevator worrying about what it's going to be like in the deepest pits of hell.

      --

      coding is life /* the rest is */
  58. Server Bios by flahwho · · Score: 1

    Most (good, current) servers have Bios settings to extensively test hardware, as well as sometimes separate Raid Bios'sses. Win7, from what i understand is not a server OS, so why would it matter?

  59. Broken resume after suspend by tepples · · Score: 1

    I close the lid and my laptop suspends. I open the lid and it resumes with no audio or, worse, a black screen.

    1. Re:Broken resume after suspend by arminw · · Score: 1

      ..... I open the lid and it resumes with no audio or, worse, a black screen....

      You just need to buy a laptop that "just works", such as my MacBook Pro. Apple computers don't have such problems, because Apple is able to test their software and hardware together and thereby prevent such troubles for the user. This may cost more, but as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

      --
      All theory is gray
  60. Beeting by camperdave · · Score: 5, Funny

    From a helpdesk point of view, they'll suffer one heck of a beeting everytime it goes down...

    Arg! Support says the server's down again. Let's throw beets at them!

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:Beeting by Tetsujin · · Score: 2, Funny

      From a helpdesk point of view, they'll suffer one heck of a beeting everytime it goes down...

      Arg! Support says the server's down again. Let's throw beets at them!

      Crap! They've retreated to higher ground, I can't throw a beet all the way up there! ...Maybe if I crouch for a few seconds until I start flashing, then I'll be able to jump up there! ...Aw, hell... I didn't hit them with the beet! I guess I'll just have to wait here until they throw something at me that I can grab and throw back at them.

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
    2. Re:Beeting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I for one am still waiting for a true sequel to SMB2-US.

    3. Re:Beeting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems that jokes can follow a law of diminishing returns too....

  61. wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wow this is great i have to get one of those...
    http://www.techandgizmo.com

  62. Re:moderation goof by nomadic · · Score: 1

    I use Linux and I hate rebooting. Not because it takes a long time to boot -- it doesn't -- it takes maybe 30 seconds.

    That's a long time.

  63. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Boot time is almost as fast as my Amiga 2000HD, running a 7.14 MHz CPU back in 1987!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9Dwk98gb7o
    http://www.myoldcomputers.com/museum/comp/amiga2000HD.htm

    Paul

  64. Re:moderation goof by gparent · · Score: 1

    Or you could, you know, use a non-obsolete version of Windows that doesn't require a reboot every system and driver update.

    XP came out in 2001. A lot has changed since then.

  65. SSD makes a bigger boot time difference by Crispix · · Score: 1

    More than a speedy bios, an SSD makes a bigger difference in boot times. I use PCs all day, but my new MacBook with SSD boots fast! From the "chime" to the login screen is 5.5 seconds.

  66. It's about time! by kimvette · · Score: 1

    It's about time! There isn't a single reason BIOS should take so long to boostrap nowadays. Even the slowest of PCs have the processing power to detect whether or not there have been any hardware changes. The only reasons to wait are a) for a memory test b) for the user to enter setup and c) to stagger hard drive spinup (and RAID enumeration when required). Otherwise, just go with the previous hardware configuration and hand things over to the boot device.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  67. TV, Lightbuld, etc by AmigaHeretic · · Score: 1

    >>I don't understand the obsession with short boot times.

    What if peoples TV's took 60+ seconds to "turn on"? People would consider the unit broken and take it back.

    Why shouldn't a computer turn on fast? I mean no flying cars and it's almost 2010, we should at least get the amazingness of hitting the "Turn On" button of our PC and it being ready to use.

  68. Re:moderation goof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After running Windows 7 for a while, one of my favourite things has been not needing to restart for installing updates.

    Hey, cool. Looks like Windows is growing up. Welcome to, like, 15 years ago.

  69. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  70. Great by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Becasue it matter so much~

    My machine at work, a three year old laptop loaded with anti-virus and altiris take 2 minutes to load.
    During which time I'm either writing down my daily task on my white board, or talking to other developer about what's going on.

    How many peopole with making a 20 second boot time really matter to in everyday work?

    Seriously, if you think about it how much will this really effect your life at work?

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  71. Where's apple? by Ninjaspork19 · · Score: 1

    Figures a fast boot would be from a windows platform and not MAC, WINDOWS FTW!!!!!!!! (sorry MAC commercials)

    1. Re:Where's apple? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, Macs boot in about 20-25 seconds, tops-- that's from pressing the power button to getting the logon screen.

      Even better, once you log in and get to the desktop a few seconds later, you can actually USE the computer, unlike Windows-- which (even on new machines) shows the desktop and then happily ignores your increasingly angry mouse clicks while thrashing the disk to load up all the startup crap, and then finally opens up several instances of what you were trying to launch when it's God damned good and ready.

    2. Re:Where's apple? by Ninjaspork19 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you need to run msconfig and stop some of your start up programs. Or get a better computer. I don't have that problem =\

  72. Seeing a desktop is one thing by Air-conditioned+cowh · · Score: 1

    Being able to actually use a Windows desktop before it stops fussing and fidgeting with the hard drive light on continuously is something else. At least when I get my KDE4 desktop, which is quite soon these days, I can use it straight away.

    1. Re:Seeing a desktop is one thing by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1

      Being able to actually use a Windows desktop before it stops fussing and fidgeting with the hard drive light on continuously is something else. At least when I get my KDE4 desktop, which is quite soon these days, I can use it straight away.

      I can do the same on my XP computer just fine. Takes about 5 to 10 seconds, and I'm including Seamonkey's boot time in that.

      A lot of that delay on a Windows desktop is all the startup crap the user never sees anyway. The Google toolbar updater, the Adobe updater, the Quicktime TSR, etc. etc. etc. Dozens of programs, all quietly taking their startup times and neatly nudging it onto XP's startup time. But hey, QT comes up instantly! And since everyone uses Quicktime a dozen times every day, it's a good tradeoff, right? Right?

      And the hell of it is, most people don't care. As a computer service guy, if a PC comes to me for being too slow to boot, nine times out of ten it takes more than FIVE MINUTES to be usable from when the desktop first shows. People just hit the power button and get coffee or something. Two seconds and two minutes are effectively the same for a lot of people out there.

  73. XP in 16sec is enough for me by u64 · · Score: 1

    My Pentium4 1700 256k

    256M 90G disk Geforce3 64M

    boots my tweaked XP3Pro in 16 sec. Not counting BIOS-time.

    Btw, i've seen a Pentium3 1100MHz boot a fresh installed XP just as slow

    as a high-end PC from 2009 boots a fresh install of 64Vista. ouch!

    (someday i'll test my tweaked XP on one of those...)

  74. Sad by SoopahMan · · Score: 1

    "we saw a retrofitted Dell Adamo hit the Windows desktop in 20 seconds, while a Lenovo T400s with a fast SSD got there in under 10."

    It's frustrating that this is what we're supposed to get excited about. I have a Win XP box I built years ago that boots in 10 seconds. It uses hardware that might cost you $400 today. All I did was pick a Bios that didn't have a lot of silly prompts you couldn't turn off, put in a fast hard drive, and, well - ran XP which doesn't eat up every last resource like 7 and Vista do.

    What's even sadder about these numbers is that seeing the "Windows desktop" in XP means I can begin browsing the web or watching Hulu right now; in Windows 7 it means you've still got a long road ahead of you before anything actually WORKS.

  75. Some perspective please! by thebian · · Score: 1

    I don't get it.

    Maybe people have boot races. Everyone sits around and watches two machines race to get past the BIOS.

    Maybe this is useful if you have an O.S. that crashes all the time, but how many ancient Windows PCs and Macs are there, and do their owners really care about a minute or two of boot time?

    I reboot machines maybe once a month, so forget me. How about someone who reboots every day. Let's say they save a whole two minutes at boot time. By my arithmetic, this important advance saves them 0.001388ths of their computer time.

    1. Re:Some perspective please! by ratboy666 · · Score: 1

      My netbook is an "appliance". Generally it is powered off. If I need some information (notes, contact info), I power it on. Old rom-based systems (like my old model-100) would be on instantly. Ready to work.

      My netbook takes 17 seconds to become ready. It won't go on the network (that takes just over 30 seconds), but I can access information in 17 seconds.

      But it's not fast enough. If someone has asked a question, I turn it on, and then WAIT. I can issue the command to find the information needed (5 seconds to load the program, 5 seconds to enter) - the time to reply is now on the order of 30 seconds. If it were "instant on", the time would be 10 seconds.

      It makes a big difference in the social interaction.

      More bizarre, it takes 15+ seconds to turn OFF. If I don't give it the 15 to 30 seconds to turn off, I get a 10 minute+ penalty on the next power up.

      I don't (really) care about server systems, or "desktop" systems (though I prefer the instant-on thin client). But I am partial to (almost) full keyboards for entry, and thus use a netbook. Yes, it "sleeps" but I can't guarantee that it will be used or plugged in on any schedule. So, I prefer to turn it off when not needed, and turn it on when needed.

      A super-fast on/off for my netbook is important to me. There are two buying points for a netbook for me: (1) keyboard quality and (2) on/off time.

      Your mileage will, of course, vary.

      --
      Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
  76. Kind of makes you wonder by strangeattraction · · Score: 1

    Kind of makes you wonder why they were so slow in the first place:)

  77. Re:Beeting that's TRULY punishment by daboochmeister · · Score: 1

    Arg! Support says the server's down again. Let's throw beets at them^W^W^W^W make them eat beets!

    There, fixed that for ya

    --
    "Ahh! I see you're in that indeterminate Schrodinger state where - oh, uh ... never mind." Dave Bucci
  78. What happens when there's other BIOS hooks? by macraig · · Score: 1

    I have a system that has both NVidia and JMicron RAID chipsets, which both hook in during the POST process and add a LONG delay to it. It would shave ten seconds off my boot process if there weren't those long waits for input as each one initializes. Those wait times aren't configurable AFAIK, either.

  79. "Boot Time" is more than just seeing the desktop. by nuckfuts · · Score: 1

    Boot up Windows on a new computer from Dell or Lenovo these days. The amount of crap loading in the background is mind boggling. I've run Task Manager on a Vista machine with no user-installed applications on it yet and seen upwards of 60 processes running.

    By the time you load a common suite of applications, you'll have added a crapload more autostart processes that load "speed launch" programs, check for Java updates, update your antivirus definitions, monitor which browser is set as default, etc. It's one thing to see the desktop appear. It's another thing to wait another 4 minutes until the machine stops trashing enough to use it.

    I've seen quick-start options in BIOS for years. What I'd like to see if for every damn software maker to stop adding cruft that needlessly requires memory allocation, CPU cycles and disk I/O the second my computer starts up. When I want to run your damn program, I'll start it myself, and if it takes three seconds longer to load because I haven't been running your speed-launch application since boot, I'll live with it.

  80. My computer boots in less than 2 seconds by RonMcMahon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How ironic it is that my 25 year-old Commodore 64 still blows the pants off what is touted as 'fantastic' today. Even my Atari 800 boots in less than a second. My MacBook 165 boots in about 8 seconds and powers down in 2... I have an HP DV8000 notebook running Windows 7 that boots in 'just minutes' ahh progress...sometimes you CAN beat it.

  81. Almost as fast as a Mac! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Almost as fast as a Mac!

  82. Define "boot"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's the issue I have with "boot" times:

    Windows XP gets to the "start sound" with desktop displayed fast enough, but what takes a snail's ass of time is for it to then load up all the extra processes. Strangely, Windows let's you interact and click app icons etc which only slows everything down even MORE until its all finished.

    So... how about we get a boot time where EVERYTHING is loaded ASAP as fast as possible and THEN let the user start interacting?

  83. 8:45A meetings -- that's why by rwade · · Score: 1

    Seriously. Hit the power switch and go occupy yourself for a minute or so. Drink some coffee. Read some Baudelaire.

    I don't always have that kind of time.

    I carry my laptop into work daily with the power off. I walk into work and realize, "Shit, I have a meeting in 5 minutes. What room is it in again?" I turn on my laptop and 4 minutes later I finally get Outlook open to check.

    Could I get into work earlier or check the meeting location before I leave the house? Sure I could, but shouldn't the technology accommodate me rather than the other way around?

  84. Re:moderation goof by Mafia$oft · · Score: 1

    Yeah, and not much for the better. At least those things that I care about.

  85. Re:Linux GPS, DashDAQ by dfries · · Score: 1

    because there are few gps navigation apps for linux.

    One of my friends has DashDAQ GPS Navigation, and then there is that company called TomTom.

    If you are talking about the Open Source options, http://gpsdrive.de/ and tangoGPS for two. Naturally none of the above does me any good as I don't have a GPS receiver, but as I already have a computer in the trunk running Linux.

  86. Re:Beeting that's TRULY punishment by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

    Windows 7 Server is coming and the downtime will lead to beetings that'll make your piss turn pink.

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  87. Faster boot isn't good for ANY OS! by Provocateur · · Score: 1

    Listen, already at couple of hundred comments and none of you realize the gravity of the situation. Faster boot times, think about it. You won't have time to make coffee! I've switched to instant coffee already! I keep the powder stuff in my mouth, wait for login, enter my password and then I have to make another dash to get the hot water and gulp them down together! Yup! No sugar! Cream? Maybe later, during the anti-virus scan! (Sugar can be added later when a virus has been detected--I happen to be the only one glad when that happens; see this smile?) This has got to stop! Are you with me??

    Stop the insanity!

    --
    WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
  88. Snow Leopard already does this .. by sakari · · Score: 1

    .. My Mac Mini with Snow Leopard installed boots in under 20 seconds. Of course this is great for Windows, but this isn't anything new either. And I bet you can tweak Linux to boot in this time too, if you manually tweak it for a year or something ;)

  89. Yeah but how long does it take to shut down by grimmin-it · · Score: 1

    My vista machine takes longer to shut down than to boot up, and as a desktop it is on 90% of the time. Probably 99% of the time I need to reboot my computer so I care more about shutting down than booting up. It takes up to like 7 mins for my Vista to shut down and like 2 or 3 to boot.

  90. I love faster boots! by greenb69 · · Score: 1

    This is a great advance for laptops, because as far as I'm concerned, the faster my machine boots, even those few seconds that are being shaved off, the better. If more manufacturers, for example Apple, could do this, it would be a great incentive for me to upgrade from my current machine. My current laptop takes a good 2-3 minutes to fully boot now, and as far as I'm concerned, that's unacceptable.

  91. Hi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.cctvhotdeals.com