Slashdot Mirror
The Gathering Storm Discussion
Just over two years ago, fans of the Wheel of Time fantasy book series mourned the death of writer James Oliver Rigney Jr. — a.k.a. Robert Jordan. After much deliberation by Jordan's wife (who also edits the series), author Brandon Sanderson was chosen to finish the series. Sanderson familiarized himself with Jordan's notes and said that they would require three more books, which he hopes to release with about a year between them. On October 27th, the first new Wheel of Time book since Jordan's death was released, titled The Gathering Storm. Early reviews for the book seem quite positive, so here's a place to discuss it. Be warned: comments may contain spoilers.
I've been reading the reviews from readers on Barnes and Noble and Amazon and it's been uniformly positive. That's quite an achievement to pass it on to another author and still be able to capture the flavor of the series.
Burned. Bummer.
I first started reading the books when I was a senior in high school, I thought the series was amazing at first, especially after the first book, and then the next two or three. Then after that it started to drag. Alot. Nothing significant was happening. Or seemingly random significant things were happening to stir up the plot. I gave up halfway through book 6 or 7 out of boredom and a sense of futility.
High school was a long time ago, and since then I've broadened my reading interests, read more genres, literature, poetry, more diverse offerings in the "Fantasy" genre, and I took a stab at reading the Wheel of Time again. Read the first book.
It sucked. Hard. All the way through.
Just my opinion, I'm not right or wrong but thats how I feel about it. If you enjoy these books thats great, different strokes for different folks, but this is a big non-story to me, except about milking a cow thats been on life support for dehydration for years and years.
Your mistake was trying to add reasoning and thought into your frist psot.
He could have passed it on to Piers Anthony or Brian Herbert and it would have been better than the dross he'd been putting into print. Seriously, does anyone think he ever intended to end the series?
snob
New WoT book released; nobody notices for 3 days.
That's awfully presumptuous. Unless you can objectively compare a Vonnegut story to a Niven story, it's all just a matter of (somewhat) informed opinion. I like Lucifer's Hammer more than Moby Dick. Is it better or even as good? Hard to say.
'Loose' is when your pants are three sizes too big. 'Lose' is when you misuse 'loose'.
Hey, it showed no other posts as I typed, so what wuz I supposed to think? Stupid Slashdot UI!
I finally gave up in digust around the first hundred pages of Winter's Heart. I think the annoying, ridiculously weird Perrin/Faile relationship was the last straw.
Is it worth picking up again, just to see the conclusion? I can make it through three more books if Stuff Actually Happens.
When people hold up Bradbury over Vonnegut or Niven over Murakami, you know that they aren't reading anything but pulp.
Actually, I know they are reading Bradbury, Connegut, Niven and Mudakami.
IT'S A COOKBOOK!
Because no one else is _ever_ typing a comment at the exact same time you are. And there's certainly _no_ chance they could be ready to hit the "post" button just about the time you're ready to hit the "comment" button.
Right. Because reading a book for enjoyment is nothing. You should read them for 'culture' or some other highfalutin crap.
If someone enjoys Bradbury more than Vonnegut, then they do. It's that simple. They are free to say so, even.
I actually like Vonnegut, but that isn't the point. I read different books for different reasons.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
No, there's really not!
To get ready for the release, I reread the series last month. Like most people who were fans of the series I had been disappointed with the slowing pace and complexity of the story in the later books. What I realized last month was that a lot of that slowness was because of the time between the releases of the books. As the series got longer and longer, I was less likely to reread the entire series before a new book came out. But reading it all at once definitely helps everything work much better. It's not that "nothing" happens in those later books, it's that so much smaller stuff happens, that it's nearly impossible to keep it all in your mind. After rereading the series, I was incredibly excited about TGS.
So I went out and bought it Tuesday after work. I finished it on Wednesday. Sanderson does a great job of channeling the early Jordan. I don't know how much of the text was directly written by Jordan, but in the book several storylines are moved forward and a few of them are actually resolved. (Yes! Really!) The book does primarily focus on Rand, over Mat and Perrin, which was a complaint about several of the later books, but I think anyone who had gotten tired of Rand's attitude and behavior will like how the book ends. Egwene and the split of the White Tower is the other primary storyline that is dealt with, and I think that part of the story is perhaps some of the best since the first 3-4 books. There is still a ridiculous amount of stuff going on that isn't explained (yet), but it all feels like it's building in a way that will resolve itself that will be very exciting to read. With Knife of Dreams, you could definitely tell that Jordan was trying to pick up speed with his story, which makes sense, as he had already been diagnosed with amyloidosis and was trying to get as much finished as he could. And that increasing pace definitely is continued in TGS. There are still points where it slows down, but it's mostly done in short scenes with the other characters, which gives the appearance of that same tension and plot speed.
And there are a couple of very, very big shockers. I definitely can't wait for the next two books.
Seriously, walked into Wal-Mart, saw it. Will check for lower prices before I buy a copy though. Not like I haven't been able to buy most of the rest of the series on remainder. Even in dollar stores. So no hurry.
I did think it was interesting that they said "Oh, there's just one book left" which I was skeptical about being accurate, and what do you know...one book, three volumes.
But I'm still waiting on the next book in ASOIAF. So I''ll probably pick this one up.
Eventually.
man that is giving Bradbury serious short shrift. His books speak of death, autumn, and the cycle of life like no one else.
Try reading October Country, you can smell and feel the crisp autumn air...
This book is a triumph. Bought it on the first day, read it all day long. Very immersive and quite similar to Jordan's writing style...only problem is that some peoples' mannerisms changed (ie, the word 'ain't' suddenly popped into existence.)
Regardless, I recommend buying it if you have not done so already.
PS: Kinda SPOILER here...
Rand gets out of his emo whiny thing.
Sanderson wrote the Mistborn trilogy which is the best fantasy series I've read in a long time. The characters and setting were very well developed. He used an extremely original system of magic that was well-thought out. He also gave a lot of thought to how the magic system would impact society. All very well done. I'm almost a bit worried that we have this great new guy and he needs to waste him time finishing Robert Jordan's magnum opus. Sanderson probably has far more original thoughts floating in his head. I want to read more of those, not see him finishing up Wheel of Time.
The Eye of the World (Book 1):
Rand al'Thor
Tam is my father.
(Nothing happens. Then, nothing happens. Then, unexpectedly, nothing happens. Everything is FRAUGHT with PORTENT.)
Moiraine
Everybody come with me.
Everybody
No. Well, ok.
(They travel a LOT. Something happens that isn't explained. Something happens that doesn't make sense. Something happens.)
Rand al'Thor
Tam is my father.
THE (predictable, cliched, dumb) END
The Great Hunt (Book 2):
Rand al'Thor
I want to do something. But doing this something is probably what the Aes Sedai want me to do, so I will do something else. But doing that something else may be what they want me to do, because they think I think they want me to do the first thing, so I'll decide to do this other thing instead. So I'll just do the first thing, since I want to do it anyway. Screw them.
(Repeat seven hundred times.)
THE END
The Dragon Reborn (Book 3):
Rand al'Thor
Being the Dragon Reborn stinks. I'm out of here.
(Moiraine and the gang CHASE him. But even though they are on HORSES, and he is WALKING, they never CATCH UP. This is supposed to be MYSTERIOUS but is really just a plot CONVENIENCE for Robert JORDAN.)
Perrin
I hate wolves.
(Mat and others show up out of NOWHERE. This is supposed to be MYSTERIOUS but is really just a plot CONVENIENCE for Robert JORDAN.)
Rand al'Thor
I am the Dragon Reborn. (kills the EVIL SUPREME BAD GUY)
Robert Jordan
Fooled you! That wasn't really the EVIL SUPREME BAD GUY! Now I can write forty more books!
THE END
The Shadow Rising (Book 4):
(Everybody HATES Rand, so he BEATS them until they OBEY.)
Rand
I have conquered all sorts of stuff, because I rule.
(Gibbers to self. Five hundred pages pass.)
THE END
The Fires of Heaven (Book 5):
Rand
I found an artifact which gives me limitless power. I think I shall brick it up behind a wall.
(A female character SNIFFS and thinks about her NECKLINE.)
THE END
Lord of Chaos (Book 6):
Rand
I have a secret plan, but I won't tell you about it.
THE END
A Crown of Swords (Book 7):
Rand
Now my secret plan shall be unleashed! Here it is. Are you ready? Are you sure you're ready? I'm going to make it look like I'm attacking this guy. But THEN I will attack some OTHER guy.
(He DOES, and it ALMOST WORKS.)
THE END
The Path of Daggers (Book 8):
Mazrim Taim
I am evil, yaargh! Fear me!
Spooky Voice of Lews Therin
Rand, kill Taim.
Rand
Being powerful sucks. I will brood.
THE END
Winter's Heart (Book 9):
Perrin
I was going to rescue my wife, but that will have to wait for the next book.
Mat
I was going to escape with my friends, but that will have to wait for the next book.
Egwene
I was going to attack Tar Valon, but that will have to wait for the next book.
THE END
Crossroads of Twilight (Book 10):
(Rand BROODS and DREAMS about his THREE WOMEN.)
Minor Characters
There is a large use of the One Power over there. (repeat indefinitely)
Perrin
I was going to save my wife, but that will have to wait for the next book.
Egwene
I was going to attack Tar Valon, but I won't finish it until the
I picked up the book yesterday afternoon, and finished it just before midnight. (Yes, I actually do retain what I read. No, I don't skip anything.)
The characters are all the same people, but Sanderson's versions seem more chatty, and slightly "larger" than Jordan's... I know that's not clear, but somehow Sanderson's intervention has resulted in more detailed character development.
The book is non-stop action. Jordan's last 3 books were *almost* boring - the plot pace had slowed to a crawl. Not true in this book: if anything, it feels like falling down a water slide. Numerous plot elements are wrapped up in just this first book. A lot of those burning questions about who's dead and who's alive are answered. Unlike Jordan's previous volumes, I could actually see this one as a movie (is that good or bad?).
I enjoyed it thoroughly. It was worth the money and the time (though my 6 hours are a pittance compared to the days some of you will spend reading it). I'm already loaning it out to other Jordan fans to read.
What if this weren't a hypothetical question?
Of course it's going to be a damn good Wheel of Time book: the new author is a great deal better than Robert Jordan ever was. It's almost a shame he's wasting his talent on continuing this series, though... it's going to cause me physical pain to have to read through any more of Jordan's repetitive, derivative crap just to get to the new book.
Snape kills Dumbledore.
Soylent Green is people.
Bruce Willis was dead the whole time.
.
.
.
Captcha word: Writers
What?
How can you have spoilers for a Wheel of Time book? What with all the hair/skirt/whatever fiddling, height comparisons, and other stock text larding up the books plus the lack of plot, how could you not know what is going to happen?
Jordan's wife (who also edits the series)
And that right there is the problem with roughly half of the books in this series; weak editing. No one appeared to be keeping Jordan in control and preventing him from spinning off more and more subplots that did little or nothing to move the story forward. Literally thousands of pages where major plot elements were barely even touched upon. I don't presume to understand how the relationship works when you're married to your editor, but it must have some kind of impact on how criticism is applied and conveyed.
I still really enjoy the series as an overall work. I'll definitely read the new one when it's available in an ebook format. I just wish Jordan had had a good editor so he could have finished his masterpiece himself.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
OK, I don't much care for Bradbury's writings (maybe I should read him again now that I'm more geezerly) and do like Vonnegut, but Niven is a good writer with a great imagination. I hadn't heard of Murakami before, so I looked him up on wikipedia. I don't see how a non-native English speaker could be a better writer IN ENGLISH than an accomplished, talented guy like Niven.
Free Martian Whores!
i was an english literature major and i think Vonnegut sucks. so my anecdote trumps yours (appeal to authority)
I don't see how a non-native English speaker could be a better writer IN ENGLISH than an accomplished, talented guy like Niven.
Nabokov didn't speak English as his first language, yet he is head and shoulders better than most native speaking authors.
I enjoy a Kit Kat bar more than caviar. OH NOES, THAT MAKES ME HOPELESS!!!
I don't see how a non-native English speaker could be a better writer IN ENGLISH...
Umberto Eco. full stop.
I'm not trying to be judgmental, actually. If you like Kit Kat better than caviar, bully for you.
The world needs ditch diggers too.
I'll read it, but I'll wait until all three (or however many it ends up being) books are published. I'm getting tired of fantasy authors who are constantly deferring their series, splitting the next book into one or two or three, missing deadlines, etc. etc. Yeah, I mean you too George R.R. Martin. Get of the film set for Game of Thrones show and finish the damn book! I wonder if the publishers get the authors to do this deliberately to try and maintain attention on a series that takes decades to complete.
I don't see how a non-native English speaker could be a better writer IN ENGLISH than an accomplished, talented guy like Niven.
He isn't. He writes in Japanese.
This happened to several series I followed as a young man.
Asimov's Foundation Series
Didn't get past the first few chapters of Brin's book. Thought he was putting too much of himself into it. Never gave the other authors a chance.
Herbert's Dune Chronicles
Initial excitement turned to confusion when 6 prequels were written. I read the first and ignored the rest. My expectations were low for the 2 finale books. But even then I was terribly disappointed. Now that the series has more than double in size I'm of the opinion that this is being done for dollars rather than literary value.
THE ONLY RULE TO FOLLOW when finishing another author's series:
Work for continuity with what was established before and keep your own ideas out of it.
As literate as you are, I'm surprised you don't know the difference between objective and "When people hold up Bradbury over Vonnegut or Niven over Murakami, you know that they aren't reading anything but pulp."
Umberto Eco is a terrible author if you read his stuff for anything other than to study the complicated ways that English can be used. The vast majority of people who buy books by Umberto Eco do so to prove how "high brow" they are.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
I'm not saying that Robert Jordan is one of the standard Sci-fi/Fantasy authors who simply couldn't write a good story to save their lives.
This is true of all genres. That you limited your analysis to SF/Fantasy shows that you have an axe to grind.
It's just that the vast majority of this genre is little better than unillustrated comic books,
You've now isolated a medium and displayed yet another bias which is absurd.
and most of the readership is too unversed in other forms of literature to provide an objective opinion about a book's quality.
Also true for every genre.
When people hold up Bradbury over Vonnegut or Niven over Murakami, you know that they aren't reading anything but pulp.
I'm not sure that I see what you're driving at. Are you suggesting that Vonnegut, for example, is a pulp author, or are you suggesting that people who cite Vonnegut also read pulp (whatever that is)?
I've read some excellent sharecropper SF. I've read some truly horrendous socio/political fiction. I have yet to run into a genre without an excellent author (though I'll admit that I haven't read a modern romance author worth slogging through). Sure, there are Mercedes Lackeys and Peter Davids out there (both of whom I've read and enjoyed in the same way that I enjoy ice cream, which can be very hard to make well), but when I read Ian M. Banks or Jonathan Letham I get something very different out of the experience. There is a craftsmanship of story that really has nothing to do with genre (as evidenced by the fact that I selected two authors whose SF and non-SF works are well respected).
Any given genre, however, is not only about authorship. Vernor Vinge is a good author, but he's certainly not the best I've read. His novels are deeply insightful when it comes to the future of humankind and technology, though. It's exceedingly rare that those two qualities come together in one author, and so I'm willing to give a good amount of ground. This is also why I enjoy Neil Stephenson's work, who can be brilliant at times, but isn't exactly what I'd call a god of characterization.
To sum up, your statements about the genres of science fiction and fantasy evidence either a profound lack of exposure to either or such a deeply jaded palate that I can't imagine you being able to read more than one or two books a decade that you enjoy.
I'll wager that wasn't all he familiarized himself with. Once the initial grief is over widow's are horny as hell. Fact.
Dang. Here, I crafted a long-winded reply with lots of examples, and you manage to sum it up in one word. Well done, sir.
The vast majority of people who buy books by Umberto Eco do so to prove how "high brow" they are.
the vast majority of assumptions are incorrect, but if you are right that's their loss. i love Foucault's Pendulum and the Name of the Rose.
Are they available from CliffNotes?
the vast majority of assumptions are incorrect, but if you are right that's their loss. i love Foucault's Pendulum and the Name of the Rose.
I'm sorry.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
When Brandon Sanderson was tapped as the man to finish this series of books, I picked up Mistborn to see what I could expect from his writing style. After I read Mistborn, I was hooked on his writing style and have since read the rest of his Mistborn series, as well as Elantris, and Warbreaker. I haven't read his young adult fiction, but it's apparently been well received. The thing that I like about Sanderson as opposed to Jordan are that a) he isn't afraid to kill a main character, especially if they're likable, b) his pacing of the book makes reading a challenge so that you don't read it too fast, as opposed to dragging through 15 pages of braid pulling and disapproving looks. However, their similarities are that Mr. Sanderson does as good of a job of character development as Robert Jordan, and Sanderson's development of political and interpersonal intrigue is usually a little better and more to the point than Jordan's.
I think that Harriet did an excellent job choosing Brandon Sanderson to finish her husband's work. It's true that Mr. Jordan became a victim of his success earlier in the series, trying to keep so many threads going at the same time, never daring to kill more than the occasional character, and perhaps trying too hard to develop additional character stories at the expense of the initial handful of major characters. However I look forward to reading this book, and hopefully the final two books. I think that if what I've read of Brandon Sanderson's other work is indicative of how he'll treat the remainder of Robert Jordan's storyline, then it will be a great read.
aren't the vast differences in experiences and opinions that we can glean out of life delightful?
Exactly. Pulp. :D
Yes, but the world doesn't really need pompous, caviar swilling, judgmental assholes to much, now does it?
My Babylon
Give yourself a break.
This isn't surprising, or even useful. The folks who ordered the book and have written reviews in the 48 odd hours since they would have released are predisposed to like it.
Not to mention they're likely punch drunk from having stayed up two nights running in order to finish this doorstop.
What.
Go read the Sandman series and see if you can still say that again. Go read Transmetropolitan and see if your statement still makes sense. Go read Watchmen and see if you still have that opinion.
Just because you have read shitty comics does not mean that all comics are shitty.
For some reason, Bradbury stuff has always resonated strongly with me. Maybe because I got into it at the right age (12-ish), maybe because, much later, I'm still very indifferent to style, focusing instead on ideas and evocative power. Probably because I'm an escapist and much prefer wildly irrealistic / slightly poetic stuff to too much realism.
I also love K. Dick, which for some reason is much more appreciated here in France than he is in the US. He certainly does NOT write well, but the ideas and stories are interesting.
Anyway, I don't think Bradbury is pulp, and I'd like to see you explain why you say it is.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
I was thinking about reading some of these again, but the sheer number of volumes was really daunting. It's nice to have a guide to how to move through and enjoy them...
Heck, if I managed to read all the way through Harry Turtledove's "Homeward Bound", I'm sure I can take whatever level of tedium book 10 of this series throws at me.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I don't exactly know what this book is. Fanfic, maybe? Authorized fanfic? Whatever. But despite the "official sanction," it can't be a Wheel of Time book. REAL Wheel of Time fans should just boycot it. All it does is encourage some other asshat to rape the franchise again, and again, and again. The true Author died. Get over it. Wheel of Time is over. Now all you will be able to have is a series of fakes, written by someone who apparently prefers leeching off a dead guy's creativity to exhibiting any of his own. What a farking affront to the fine profession of wordcraft.
/FYI - I'm not even a fan of the WoT books. I gave it a shot, but never really connected with the characters or the style. I'm still offended by the rape of the Author's legacy, though.
Yah well, that's you. I've read and reread that first book six or seven times as well as reading through the series over and over again and each time I marvel at the depth and richness of the world created by Robert Jordan. Probably the best writer in the genre, in my opinion he is the best. I've met and talked with the man and he was a well read, brilliant author whose vision was ultimately bigger than one lifetime worth of work. But of course, if it's a big non story for you then why bother even writing how much 'you' think it sucks? There are always Hannah Montana picture books for you.
Enjoy your Karma, after all you earned it. Feel your Karma Joe, feel it burn.
So do you too have a lawn I can get off of? What kind of grass to you recommend for mine? There's nice fluffy grass that's soft enough for parties but kinda wears out if you dirtbike on it. The tough stuff might annoy guests but it's the perfect blade size to make that grass-reed between your thumbs. Did any of it wash away to reveal muddy patches? With all the rain lately a Grass-Mud Horse might like it.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
I like to think I'm a fairly forgiving reader, and I read several books of the series. At one point, I really, really wanted to find out how the series would end. I finally gave it up, though, after Jordan made it clear that he was in absolutely no hurry to finish up the series.
Don't remember exactly what the title was. The of . The women had been floundering around for what seemed like forever, and then, all of a sudden, completely out of the blue, they realized they had an urgent mission to find some bowl or other that would magically end the drought that had been going on EVER SINCE I STARTED READING THE FREAKIN' SERIES!! Was Jordan spinning out the story for another twelve volumes to make himself another twelve paychecks? Why, yes, I think he was.
At that point I muttered the Eight Deadly Words* to myself, returned the book to the library, and never read another word in the series.
*The Eight Deadly Words you never want your readers to say: "I Don't Care What Happens To These People."
Looks like dragonmount got /.ed - and I cant wait to see the reviews before I leave work and grab the novel from somewhere... Weekend reading WoT - perfect!
I love opinions like this. It makes me glad I left the world of "literature" behind after college. What is the exact statistical definition of "vast majority" and how many of said volumes have you read? Also, since you brought it up, what are your opinions on comic books or, if you prefer, graphic novels? Have you read Watchmen? Or the recently released Icognegro? Or how about the wonderful adaptation of Paul Auster's City of Glass? I'm of the opinion that culture, whether it be pop,high, or sub, is by its very nature subjective.
I've read all those. They're good comics, but they're not good enough to elevate the whole genre. Transmetropolitan and Sandman are basically rip-offs (or homages to be nice) of previous works, they don't even stand on their own. Watchmen works best as a deconstruction of superhero comics and if you don't care about the genre in the first place, it has nothing to offer.
Nabukov makes most other writers of English look like highschool essay contest papers.
Say what you will about the content but Lolita truly is, as he describes it, a testement to his love of the English language.
Murakami is aces at making you feel good about your literary hoity-toityness. But I, for one, have better things to think about than the opium dreams of some oversexed wit-lit writer. There are no real ideas or insights there. It's fluff.
Now, Dostoevsky or Tolstoy...
is get a better editor.
He write wonder 300 page book spread out to 900 pages.
Seriously, it's bad. I mean, you don't use the same words to show emotion, it's like a hack TV writer having the viewer know a character is angry buy having the characters say it's angry.
Normally, I would just lets this move on, but I know if they were edited properly, I would enjoy the story.
Two final things:
1) Just because you like a book doesn't make it good writing
2) If you think I'm complaining about the size, you missed my point.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I had heard that this book was supposed to be out in September, so I reread the entire series in August. Then I found out it was supposed to be November. Now I find out it's been out two days. Anyway, despite the slowness in places and repetitive annoying idiosyncrasies, I've enjoyed this series. Jordan had a visual manner of writing that immersed you in the story. Or at least immersed me. I look forward to getting it on the way home from work.
Tom.
I gave up on the series after book 8, now I'm all caught up. Can you help me get back the hours I wasted on the other books?
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Murakami? Are you f'n kidding me? he is a teen pop novelist. Ye, he os good compared to other teen pop authors, but that's it. Oh look he's drinking and therefore petty and evil.
He's Japanese equivalent to J. K. Rowling
sheesh. Did you just pick out a Japanese name to make yourself look well read?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Yes and they were edited by his wife so they're a measly 600 pagers with 12 additional and unneeded sub plots.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You are awesome because you read fast.
He's also a piece of shit because nothing useful comes out of jewpan. The only that should have happened is that we went back there and blew the fuck out of the rest of those faggots.
The Robert Jordan franchise may yet outlast the Star Trek Franchise!
>>Not true in this book: if anything, it feels like falling down a water slide.
That's Sanderson's trademark style. In Mistborn, you think he's setting everything up for a trilogy. Then events start flying by faster and faster, and by the end of it it seems like he's packed an entire trilogy into the first novel.
I think that's why Harriet picked him to finish the WoT series... if anyone can do it, he can.
Maybe I'll ask Harriet and Brandon when they come to Half-Moon Bay on the 20th. I get to meet them as a Storm Leader, woot!
FYI: They're on a book tour right now. http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=764
No wife has EVER had a problem criticizing her husband. Ever. Not once. Eve opened her eyes after god created her and gave Adam an earful about how this was the best rib he had to spare and all.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Hey, get the hint that slashdot doesn't like "first" posters?
Actually, it sucks. I've literally exhausted 90% of the decent sword & sorcery fantasy fiction out there since I became addicted to it 10 - 12 years ago. I find myself re-reading the better material just to read something.
What if this weren't a hypothetical question?
I was hoping for a review of Churchill's memoirs.
I loved this series when it first came out. Then Rand Al'Jordan turned it into a giant money suck. The last half of the series appears to exist exclusively to fatten Jordan, et al's bank account, while massacring as many trees as possible. Thousands and thousands of pages of NOTHING HAPPENING.
I think these books are a classic case of the cash-cow mentality that Stephen King, Anne Rice, James Patterson, and every other major commercially-successful author has gained in the last 20 or so years. We see the same thing with TV and to a lesser extent movie 'franchises'. The story no longer matters as much as the money it is possible to bilk from the fans. Quality goes down hill, the whole purpose of writing the story becomes, not to tell a story, but to effortlessly 'convert' your bank balance to a positive number.
Then again, maybe it is not effortlessly. If school taught me anything it is that making up BS that doesn't say anything is usually harder than just studying.
K.
I have to step back just a bit from this. I still think I'm right, but I was responding to a mis-read. I read "When people hold up Bradbury over Vonnegut," thought it said "Bradbury or Vonnegut." That certainly gives the whole thing a very different tone.
That being said, Vonnegut and Bradbury are an interesting pair to compare. After all, they're primarily known for their work from 30-40 years ago. I think that if you're going to discuss as vibrant a genre as SF, it makes sense to lean on more modern examples. Then again, perhaps the OP didn't have any recent examples handy. If so, I hope that I've helped by providing some examples that run the spectrum.
If you figure then that Sanderson goes about triple the speed of a normal storyteller, then his 3 book Wheel of Time conclusion would take a normal storyteller 9 books to tell. Figuring Robert Jordan liked to spend 1.5x the time a normal storyteller would, he had about 14 books left. I was surprised at first, but actually, these numbers feel about right to me.
Oh dear. Forget to click the 'Post Anonymously' checkbox did we?
I'm fascinated to know what The Sandman or Transmetropolitan are ripping off - I should read it!
.evom ton seod gis eht
Transmetroplitan is a direct riff on Hunter S Thompson. The Sandman struck me as being extremely derivative of the a lot "New Wave" fantasy from the '70s. Stuff like Roger Zelazny, Philip José Farmer, Michael Moorcock, Ursula K. Le Guin.
..for some of the obvious issues with Jordan's writing. Can I pick up the Gathering Storm and be able to pick up on what is going on, or will I be reading through a mess of patches to plot holes from the previous 7 books?
I am very much the same way. I've read a lot of science fiction and fantasy, to the point where I'll try anything that someone recommends. The problem is that I can't always keep track of /what/ I've read. Oftentimes, I get a book... get to like page 25 and realize that I've read it before sometime in my youth. I had no idea when i picked it up, but when the plot and characters are starting to be developed, my brain remembers it.
P.S. I hope that you have read Joe Abercrombie's series, Rothfuss "Name of the Wind" (only first book out, good good stuff), and Brent Week's Nightangel Trilogy. They are all under related books at Amazon, and they are all awesomely rad.
A large amount of what Vonnegut wrote was SF, and not every book was that great.
The folks who ordered the book and have written reviews in the 48 odd hours since they would have released are predisposed to like it.
I disagree. After vesting in eleven fairly long books released over nearly twenty years, many people are skeptical of a new author stepping in and messing things up. Excited about a new book in the series? Yes. Predisposed to like it? I'm not so sure.
I'm only a few chapters into it myself, but one of the things that seems to make the book a good fit is that it appears to follow (to my eyes at least) Jordan's writing style closely despite the author's claims that imitation was not one of his goals. This could due to the fact that entire sections of the final three books were actually written by Jordan himself and effort was likely made to ensure Sanderson's work transitioned into and out of these well, but I also expect that having the same book editor, Jordan's wife, had a great deal of influence as well.
There's a fine line between ripoff and homage. Great artists steal and all that. I think for a single work, you owe the creator the benefit of the doubt to assume it's homage, and only pull out the "derivative" cannon when there's an entire body of work without novelty.
almost boring? OMFG, I found my stats textbook more exciting than anything after book 5.
Transmetroplitan is a direct riff on Hunter S Thompson.
I'm not sure what "direct riff" really means, but yes, Transmet is about a Hunter S. Thompson analog dealing with a world of designer genetics, high tech drugs and nanotechnology. I'm really not certain where you think that's been done before, but I have to say that it was something I couldn't have quite imagined before I read Transmet.
The Sandman struck me as being extremely derivative of the a lot "New Wave" fantasy from the '70s. Stuff like Roger Zelazny, Philip José Farmer, Michael Moorcock, Ursula K. Le Guin.
So, because it reminded you of the style of other authors it was ripping off ... what, exactly? You're reaching. Quite a lot.
Have you ever considered reading non-genre fiction, then? Seriously; I barely ever read any genre stuff, for pretty much the reasons you cite.
Breakfast served all day!
*WARNING SPOILERS WARNING*
It seemed after the dullness that was Book 10 (Crossroads of Twilight), Jordan took a machete through the undergrowth of his sub-subplots, and the pacing of the books has improved greatly. Jordan published the deleted scenes, Twittered for the fanbois, director's cut version of Wheel of Time first and then made everyone else slog through it.
The reintegration of Rand al'Thor almost (almost!) makes me forgive Jordan for dragging us through 5 books of Rand's emo. When Min utters something along the lines of, "Yeah, well, we should probably try to stop manipulating Rand, it's just making things worse" it's a real No Shit, Sherlock! moment... especially since Moiraine told them the same thing in... Book 5.
The first meeting of Rand and Tam since Book 1 is a huge emotional payoff. I know a lot of readers, including me, have been waiting for that since Jordan mentioned it during one of his signings.
Gareth Bryne laying the verbal smackdown on Gawyn was a treat.
And Verin ... her major contribution to the book was probably the best scene since the cleansing of saidin. Completely unexpected twist on top of an expected twist, at least to me, but also in hindsight 100% true to who Verin is.
Nynaeve was sheer awesomeness, continuing her run since channelling the female Choedan Kal. I only wished she actually did slap Rand when they were discussing Lan.
Min finally realizes how useless she is as a self-appointed knife-wielding bodyguard to the most powerful channeller in the world. Is that character development? It makes her a lot less whiny and clingy and more focused, at any rate.
The Rand/Graendal "fight". The only way that could have been better is if Graendal had used a pet Aes Sedai to lay the Compulsion down and left. Waitaminute...
Major downers:
Egwene is still insufferable. Her saving grace is that 99.9% of the other Aes Sedai she is surrounded by are worse. Egwene and Gawyn: you two were truly made for each other. I can't think of anyone else I would wish either of you upon.
Perrin is still sidelined on his embarrassing plotline. When one of his followers(!) is plucked from him and has a scene of pure greatness right away, you know he is officially drowning in Subplot Hell. (Not that we didn't know that back in Book 8.) At least we potentially have the payoff of Perrin explaining to Rand accidently turning their home into Manetheren (oops!), and then Elayne's reaction to look forward to.
Does the Black Tower exist? I guess we'll RAFO... probably linked with the Demandred foreshadowing, and the prophecies of the Black Tower.
Not enough Mat. By far. Although the "God... I'm married! Me!" was beginning to wear... usually Mat is awesome enough to migrate to another subject, but not this book.
Paging Elayne! Rand could use a decent political advisor, for about the last 2 or 3 books... And maybe some of Nynaeve's awesomeness can rub off on you in the process? The Suck was certainly contagious between the two of you in books 6-8...
Moiraine needs to show up and start kicking some Cadsuane ass. Seriously.
Aviendha is still sidelined, and has yet to regain her Bad MF status. I'm still hoping she and Rand will turn the knob to 11 with Callandor. (With Moiraine? Elayne? Egwene? Who cares?)
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
When people hold up Bradbury over Vonnegut or Niven over Murakami, you know that they aren't reading anything but pulp
When people hold fiction writers as example of what an educated man should read rather than somebody like Donald Knuth, you know they should've studied a bit more in high school and gotten a degree in something useful, like Mathematics or Engineering rather than English Literature.
Disclaimer: I enjoy reading fiction, I simply don't pretend I'm better than anybody else based on my particular tastes in it.
No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
Like many here, I was instantly hooked on the WOT books when they first came out.
Books 5 through 9 each increasingly bogged down and lacked the 'magic' of the preceding volumes. I was so disappointed with CoT that I didn't buy KoD when if first came out but waited a year and borrowed it from the library.
KoD was a return to form, and I was pleased to see that tGS kept the momentum.
I would have liked to see Galad and Loial make appearances, and all the Egwene punishment chapters were starting to intrude into Goodkind territory.
My biggest complaint is that Rand's emotional rollercoaster and subsequent epiphany was unconvincing and unneccessary Book after book after book pounded into our heads that Rand avoids violence against women at all costs. Suddenly he snaps and remorselessly kills women? It rang false to me. And, all he had to do to snap himself out of taint-induced paranoia was channel massive amounts of saidin standing on the top of the Dragonmount, while destroying the largest weapon available to male channelers?
->Dan
That's because Bradbury is a better author than Vonnegut in almost every way. Yep, you heard me right. Vonnegut, while quite good, is seriously overrated IMNSHO.
Now, if you had said Bradbury over Jules Verne, you might have had a valid point. Verne's works have stood the test of time while Bradbury's have a while to go. Murakami I've never heard of, so I can't comment on your other comparison.
And no, I don't limit my reading to just pulp. When I step away from SF, though, I tend to gravitate towards histories, biographies, and novels from the 18th and 19th centuries.
might I suggest... branching out? The best material I've read lately has been modeled after older styles (Name of the Wind, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, etc. all tie in to older literary styles, not trying to hold the mold of "sword and sorcery" or even more broadly, "contemporary fantasy"). Charles Dickens seems a lot better than he used to... as does George MacDonald, et al.
Have you ever considered reading non-genre fiction, then? Seriously; I barely ever read any genre stuff, for pretty much the reasons you cite.
There's no such thing as non-genre fiction. I've read fiction from dozens of genres ranging from espionage thrillers to cultural experience novels to coming of age stories to political intrigue to horror and so on. The only genre I haven't spent serious time with is war, and mostly because I read Johnny Got His Gun and decided that, important as the issues were, I didn't read fiction for that kind of experience (I have the news for that).
What I think you were aiming at was fiction which is less defined by its genre than by its themes. I would hold up some works of science fiction in this category (in fact, I expect that the OP was suggesting Vonnegut specifically because he tends to inhabit this space) along with a few political intrigue stories and even some fantasy (Alice in Wonderland comes to mind). These are stories whose genre exists only as a metaphor and whose larger issues dominate the story.