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Why Is a Laptop's Battery Dearer Than a Lawnmower's?
Barence writes "PC Pro's contributing editor Paul Ockendon has bought a new lawnmower powered by lithium-ion batteries — part of a recent flood of such lithium-ion-powered garden and workshop tools which are taking over from NiCd and NiMH thanks to lighter weight, longer life and lack of the pernicious 'memory effect.' This is pretty much the same battery technology used in laptops, mobile phones and MP3 players, so volume manufacture is already established. Yet laptop manufacturers charge more per Watt-hour than lawnmower makers. This blog investigates whether such a seemingly ludicrous situation can be justified."
Greed.
The reason why laptop batteries are more expensive per unit energy than a lawnmower battery is because you're only willing to tolerate a certain physical size for a laptop battery. On a lawnmower, by comparison, an arbitrarily large battery is generally acceptable provided it is not too extraordinarily heavy.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Lawnmower-to-laptop battery adapter. Wheel Cart not included.
I think somebody watched Spaceballs yesterday!
As long as demand is greater than supply, price will increase.
Because any manufacturer is going to charge the most that you are willing to pay. In lawnmowers, there are cheaper alternatives. With laptops, there are not. Pure market based pricing.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
Watts the energy density?
The lawnmower is drawing a much more amperage than the laptop. You would need a more rugged battery to get the same watt-hours.
That's the free market. If people are willing to pay $50 for cell phone batteries then that is what you charge, otherwise you're leaving money on the table.
Look on amazon, you can get cell phone batteries from reputable companies for far, far less.
And cell phone accessories is an even bigger scam. I wanted another usb cable for my blackberry. From my cell phone company they would charger $30. BestBuy was similar.
I bought one on amazon for $0.39. Yes, 39 cents for a genuine usb cable (+2.50 shipping). Chargers are $0.99.
Look, even the genuine stuff comes out of the cheap factories in China, and you're being gouged if you don't shop around.
We have seen it before, so I wouldn't be surprised.
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/12/12/0114248/860-Million-In-Fines-Handed-Out-For-LCD-Price-Fixing?art_pos=1
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/05/04/22/1850250/RAM-Manufacturers-Fined-for-Price-Fixing?art_pos=4
I really like the idea of a battery powered lawnmower, as opposed to the electric lawnmower I had as a kid back in the 70s. My parents were foolish enough to think I could use it without running over the cord... boy did I prove them wrong.
http://www.beanleafpress.com
It very well might be that heat dissipation requirements deem that laptop batteries be more efficient (read: latest-generation designs, which invariably will cost more per kWh), where lawnmower batteries can get away with models that throw off more waste heat.
When you pack a battery into 1/3 the space you would ideally want it in it has a tendency to explode. The price discrepancy is trying to minimize the likelihood of it literally burning you. A mower has a lot more space for heat dissipation. It's also less likely to cause third-degree burns on the off chance it does overheat, since you don't use it on your lap.
Will the laptop battery last long enough to hack into and disable the lawnmower's systems before the lawnmower can run it over and make lithium confetti?
Does your lawnmower support 802.11n?
Some of it is chemistry, and some of it is brand name inflation. Lithium batteries have a range of formulations. The lowest-cost formulations are suitable for low-amperage discharge, while better formulations can be discharged at a much higher current and still maintain a cool temperature and good recharge longevity. Heat is the real enemy here, so cramped cooling-starved long-running applications like laptops also demand better batteries than a weed-whacker that runs occasionally and has a chance of good airflow. In the radio-controlled hobby, there is a huge range of prices for essentially commodity batteries. These are usually Lithium-Polymer, a step above the usual laptop Li-Ion, but the same economics are in play. There are some "well known names" that are sold in all of the domestic R/C retailers. There are some generics sold in Hong Kong that sell for 1/3 to 1/5 the price, and some are even higher quality in longevity testing. Lithium is lithium, so unless there's an amazing return/warranty policy, it's usually not worth the brand name price.
[
It's the main reason they replaced nicads in most applications.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_effect
"The cost of goods is what the market will bear.." It cost that much because people will pay that much. Expectations are such that consumers are willing to pay more for non-essential "gadgets" in relation to "tools". A person will buy a $2000 dollar laptop but wouldn't dream of buying a $2000 push mower (outside of premium or elite marketing).
Perception of a product influences price. A battery for a laptop is "techie, electronic, computer related" while a battery for you kid's eleectric car is a "consumable, toy, non-essential" and a battery for a lawnmower is "utlility, get-it-done, tool" in perception.
Those perception influence product pricing. There is no conventional "miniturization" in Lithium batteries per say that you have to pay a higher costs to shrink the battery, it seems more driven by natural market dynamics.
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
ink cartridges too
Basically the only thing on newer laptops is that there is actual circuitry inside of the battery pack now, but it is all very basic and couldn't cost more than a dollar or two at best. I used to work at Radioshack in college (I know, I know, but I was actually intelligent and truly helpful... not a drone) and I once replaced the cells in my Thinkpad 600 right there on the counter with the Li cells we sold... Everyone was amazed that, that was all that was inside of there. People always seem to think because it has to do with a computer it must be magical and exotic. Basically as long as you know how to properly solder them without killing yourself (the ones with tabs help) it's a 5-10 minute job and cost about $10-15.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
TFA even goes on to admit that the lawnmower battery weighs three times as much as the VAIO's. If you want cheap Li-Ion cells that will run your notebook for under half an hour before giving out, that's fine. Enjoy them.
I am assuming there is more regulation and licencing required on electronic devices than power tools. Hence stricter requirements, increased labor to bring to market and liability concerns.
OR perhaps the cost of the cell used in laptops is higher from the battery manufacturer (he didn't mention individual cell size).
Of course, the other option is companies trying to make a few extra dollars/pounds/yen/etc. However, the author of TFA seemed to be on more of a rant than a research mission.
You're not going to pay top dorrah for a generic Made In China battery for a lawnmower or power tool, but you'll gladly pay a premium for higher quality electrons from a Japanese labeled battery in your iThinkBook. It's still Made In China, of course, but as long as you don't look too closely at it, you won't feel ripped off.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
You can get cheap lithium-ion batteries for laptops. Third party knock off brands usually sent straight China. They don't work as well and in some cases can even cause damage. If laptop batteries were easy to make the third party market wouldn't be full of bad batteries.
While you are at it, why not trying to understand why the printer's inks are so expensive?
Let's not forget that laptop batteries probably have higher quality requirements for smooth power delivery, low heat emission during use, etc when compared to lawn mower batteries.
If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
Does this mean that I can charge my lawnmower with my laptop charger? Or, better yet, will my laptop charge in a fraction of the time if I use my lawnmower charger on it?
I realize that the above is ludicrous, but does Joe Sixpack? How many exploding laptops will we see from some eco-green lawnmower lover trying to implement the above?
Come on, folks. We all need to learn some basic business concepts. This question, in a different form, comes up every few days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willingness_to_pay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_curve
Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
Avoids the flex problem, is always charged up, is a lot cheaper to buy and free to run, and as a bonus I get exercise when I cut the lawn! (OK, OK, my *girlfriend* gets exercise when *she* cuts the lawn because I can't be bothered, but the principle's the same!)
Recently I needed a netbook screen replacement.
I paid a small business that buys stuff in the US for customers and had the screen PLUS a 9 cell battery for 120 euro.
Morale, laptop makers bleed you dry anyway they can. The batteries are something you can't easily buy from others and the laptop makers try to make you believe that any aftermarket battery will eat your family. How else do you think Sony makes its profits (or rather these days, keeps it losses in control).
Charge what the market is willing to bear, then if not enough buy, charge more so you get more money from the rest. It works... the guy writing the article bought a VAIO. There is one born every minute.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
You just spent an entire paragraph explaining the short, simple post you replied to.
The question posed in the story is simple. Why do computer manufacturers screw customers on battery prices? Because they do, because they always have, and most importantly, because they can.
More like "Lack of standards"
There is no "Laptop battery pack", each laptop seams to have is own wattage/voltage combo that is unique to that model / brand.
The fact is, there should be a "standard" set of standard "sizes" available, like we have for regular batteries (A, AA, AAA, C, D, 9v, etc).
It isn't "greed" so much as it is the cost of making a large number of short run batteries. When it costs almost as much to get a battery as it does a new laptop, there is something wrong.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
It's because you can pull-start a lawnmower, so you don't really need a battery. As soon as we have Briggs & Stratton powered laptops, the batteries will be dirt cheap.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Laptop batteries are required to meet very strict safety guidelines. I'll bet that lawn mower batteries have very few safety guidelines... which makes sense... a laptop battery exploding is much more likely to hurt someone than a lawn mower battery. All that testing and all those extra safety measures add up to increased cost.
You can buy Sony batteries for GBP220 or you can buy chinese batteries for like GBP40. On my IBM laptop my chinese batteries are working fine for 3 years now, and they still have nearly full capacity.
Because they need to prove that an electric mower is at least as good as a gas version (adoption). Also, laptop batteries would be cheaper if you could buy a gas powered laptop.
why is a laptop dearer than a lawnmower?
... the same bottle of beer is almost an order of magnitude cheaper at your local beverage mart than at an upscale night club. How can that be?
Of all the ridiculously priced items out there, why did he pick these batteries? Batteries for laptops need to be smaller, lighter, and more careful about heat dissipation than those in a lawnmower. The 66% premium sounds about right, just like the premium one has to pay for the rest of a laptop compared to a big old desktop PC.
If he wants to rant about prices, how about laptop accessories? I wanted to buy a second wall charger for my laptop, but they were charging $75 for it. What about the price of any cable or charger sold at chain stores? Radio Shack, who used to sell packs of resistors to me for 50 cents, wanted me to pay $25 for a USB cable. It's as if they want me to buy everything online.
And I won't even start on text messages and other cell phone baloney. Ranting about that could be a full time job.
It's all about energy density per volume (Wh/mL) and mass (Wh/kg)
My home burglar alarm has a 48 Wh battery that cost $14. And guess what? It's somewhat large and heavy.
What are the profit margins on lawnmowers and lawnmower accessories? Gross margins on laptops are around 10%. Compare that to things like clothes, furniture, and food which might be 100% or 1000%. Often times electronics retailers profit only from the accessories like batteries.
It's the power density not the watt hours that make the price difference. In other words it's the watt/hours per kg that matters. Laptop batteries are not as dense (heavy) as power tool batteries, their power density is higher (more watt/hours per kg) than power tool batteries.
There is (fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your POV) no such thing as a standard laptop battery i.e. one size fits many. Therefore you don't get the same economies of scale that may occur if there were, say, only 3-4 different laptop battery sizes, with multiple manufacturers cashing after the market.
I suspect the same thing goes on with power tool batteries but I bet if you cracked open a few designed for different tool brands they'd have many the same components between them, similar to how lantern batteries are basically 4 (crappy) C batteries in series.
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
Contrary to popular belief, so called proprietary battery packs are actually filled with pretty standard lithium ion cells. These can be purchased on eBay and a variety of other outlets. Even if you can't find the correct size you will find a similar enough model that you can use instead - you might have to solder a few wires but nothing that requires mad skillz.
So next time you have an expensive proprietary battery pack go bad on you, bust it open yourself and put in a few new cells. This is also a service offered by some companies so you can get new batteries for discontinued equipment - much of this equipment is not worth paying someone to rebuild a battery for but for things like satellite phones (such as the Motorola 9500) it is well worth it.
From TFA:
...David Sapaeth, a product specialist at Sony VAIO Europe, sent me the following prepared statement:
"VAIO does use lithium-ion batteries in the majority of its laptops, but they differ from those used in power tools in a number of ways.
"Power tools typically require a high power output, but for very short periods of time only (long enough to drill a hole, tighten a screw, saw a board and so on). Then they pause again at zero output until the next task. Notebooks require a stable output for hours in a row.
"If we look at the batteries of a power drill for example, they're ten times heavier than a notebook battery. Notebook batteries are extremely condensed in terms of cells. If we were to use the same cells as power tools in a notebook with the continuous power demand, the cells would likely melt!"
Also, author of TFA is apparently purposefully trying to be an idiot. Which can happen when you start your rant based on a faulty premise.
First he acknowledges the problems NiCd and NiMH batteries have, then he ignores it - because that would prove his rant is simply a product of uninformed reasoning.
In other words - he has no fucking idea what's he talking about.
I'm grateful for David's response, and he raises some interesting points, but I'm not sure I accept all of them. David claims power tool batteries don't need to deliver continuous power, but that's exactly what the batteries in my Bosch mower do (and my Ryobi strimmer and hedge cutter).
And these power tool batteries deliver such continuous power at much higher currents - the mower runs flat in about 40 minutes while the similar capacity VAIO battery has six to eight hours, and I've used my mower and strimmer without ever seeing their batteries melt down.
No, Paul baby, it is not that your lawn mower's battery delivers continuous power at higher currents - it is the fact that your laptop uses far less power at much lower currents.
And you don't see your battery melt down BECAUSE... well... what parent post said.
Also, he apparently thinks that when you buy a battery you buy electricity.
Ummm... No. You are buying PORTABILITY. Not watt-hours but grams, cubic centimeters AND watt-hours.
That is why it would cost a fortune to replace a car battery with a pile of iPod batteries.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
The world will be out of lithium soon enough
The guy from Sony answered it: size, weight, and output differences. Would someone actually critique that instead of talking about markets, price settings, and conspiracy theories?
I think you are conflating the difficulty of make laptop batteries with the ability of China to deliver goods that actually perform at the task they claim.
From batteries that catch on fire,
to drywall full of toxic coal ash,
to plastic products that are so thin they bend or break when used as intended,
to pet food containing toxic melamine,
to cough syrup containing anti-freeze,
to mechanical toys whose tolerances are so poor that gears chatter instead of engage,
etc,
etc,
etc.
Chinese products are always cheapened one or two degrees past the point that they function.
Our stores are now full of the pathetic junk that we used to look down up the Communists for having.
We just have more choices of junk that they did.
True for laptops, laptop batteries, cars, women.
With exceptions that prove the rule.
Small + Good = Expensive. Eva Longoria, Tesla, Laptops.
Small + Cheap != Good. Geo Metro only example needed.
Feel free to feel offended. Way it is.
There is the possibility that lawnmowers are just cheaper in some other way, but I'm betting it's about making small batteries fit interesting spaces.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Super expensive laptop batteries have always bothered me. If you've ever taken one apart you know whats inside them. A bunch of AA cells strung together in series. Thats it. They're not top of the line Energizer or Duracell either, they are the cheapest of the cheap AA lithium ion cells mass produced in china or japan or where ever is cheapest at the moment. They are worth no more than $5 in total. Its appalling how much these companies charge for trash. This isn't to say all companies use such shit. There are a few that custom make their own batteries for better performance and size.
As soon as we have Briggs & Stratton powered laptops, the batteries will be dirt cheap.
I'd imagine that some PC battery backup devices can automatically start a diesel generator when they discharge too far. Is that close enough?
what is cheaper, 1 gallon of milk or 8 pints?
basing the 'cost' on watt hours of energy is stupid..
which has more watt hours? (the lawnmower)
which has the same one container, one pair of contacts, and one manufacturing point.
now- (outta my ass numbers) it may take 4 laptop batteries to have the same watt hours as one lawnmower battery.
so that is 4 containers, 4 contacts, and four manufacturing articles.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Lithium + Lawnmower + Vibration = beautiful fireworks i think.
I'd hazard a guess that manufacturing tolerances are a cost factor. A 2mm range of variation in battery sizes would probably be unacceptable for a laptop manufacturer, but the lawnmower maker should be able to deal with a much larger variation, as well as a bigger overhead for the casing. It probably costs a lot more to wrap a laptop battery in 1.2mm of accurately made stuff than it does to case a laptop battery in 4-7mm of rough hewn gunk.
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
From TFA, summarizing:
Whiner. A Kodak KLIC-8000 lithium-ion digital camera battery comes out to £3.46 / watt hour.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
It's funny this just came up...
I bought an ideapad s10 with 6 hour (6 cell) battery from Amazon for $312. I just remembered about buying a 2nd battery, as my flight to see my in-laws is 10+ hours. Lenovo wants $39.99.
I don't think that is unreasonable.
If I ran a gas station, and I was charging you $8/gallon to fill up a certain type of car, I would be accused of many crimes. I would be fined, thrown in jail, termination of business, or all the above.
If this were the Electric company charging more on Street A vs. Street B, they would likely suffer the same fate.
Should battery vendors be overlooked or justify it somehow with weak "Supply and Demand" BS excuses?
Don't overlook or mistake different types of energy to be "fair". There's still the same air of greed and corruption behind ANY type of Energy provider, regardless of demand.
Laptop batteries are design differently AND there is a minimum 'entry' cost; Something that impacts it less as the Watt hours increases.
Yes, getting as much as the market will bear is part of it, but it is more complex then Econ 101.
They are also designed differently. He touches on in in the article, but then tosses it away with an incorrect conclusion.
Laptop batteries are designed for continuous power for hours.
His lawnmower does not run for hours without stopping, neither do his trimmers.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Here, I’ll save you the trouble of doing the horrible math.
Lawnmower battery ... 93.6 watt hours ... 87.48 watt hours
Laptop battery
I’ll save you the trouble of even more horrible math and just tell you that it’s about a 7% difference.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
It's only 65% more per watt-hour for the laptop battery. That's not a big deal. Laptop batteries have trickier form factors, a lower packaging weight budget, and tougher heat management problems. It's not like ink-jet printer ink pricing, which is a known scam.
Apple, with their non-replaceable iPod/iPhone batteries, is a much bigger deal. Now that's a ripoff designed to make customers buy a new unit every two or three years.
£220 ($357) for a laptop battery is insane. Even my high-priced 7-cell (60 Wh) ThinkPad T61 battery was $130, or about £1.30/Wh at today's exchange rates - right in line with his lawnmower battery figures.
I'm not saying that laptop batteries aren't ridiculously expensive - they are. But they aren't as bad as the story makes them out to be, at least not in the US.
Note that none of the power tool makers standardize either. (At least not the ones I've seen/used.)
Ryobi batteries power Ryobi devices, and not all at that.
Black and Decker powers Black and Decker.
Skill powers...etc.
And it's all about the plastic housing. The batteries are basically the same inside, just piled up to make the voltage they want. I assume, anyhow.
I want the standardization in the laptop market, yes, but I REALLY want it in the power tool market.
In the laptop market, I'd settle for a standard DC power in connector with bumps on it to make it only work for matching voltage connectors. Then we could use a nice competitive external battery standard to keep things going in a pinch and cheaply.
Ludicrous pricing is the name of the game. Just look at the Kindle. The Kindle is priced the same as a netbook, a netbook which could easily be modified to be a reader AND is a general purpose device.
Any justified pricing there? No. Sales, however are great.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Oddly, I trust the power tool guys not on this more than I trust the laptop guys.
Why does an ipod/phone sync cable go for $1 to $3.99 online but $20 or more in the store? Because if you're going to the store, you probably need the cable now, can't wait. Bend over and take it, bitch. Capitalism. Apologists will say it's a convenience fee for providing the store, helpful employees, etc. This is the same reason why a TV or printer will sell for damn near cost but the cable to connect them to something useful will be $20 to $100. You don't think about buying the cable before the television (unless you've been burned before) and who wants to get the nice and shiny TV home only to wait a few days for delivery?
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
I know iPhone batteries aren't *user* replaceable, but I thought that they could be replaced by an Apple service center? Of course, that's still a pain in the arse (because it means you have to lose the use of your phone for some period of time). Not saying I agree with Apple's design choice, but am I wrong that the battery *can* be replaced by someonen with the knowledge and tools? The way I figure it is, if a service center can replace the battery, then so can I - it just might not be as easy as other phones.
Seems to me a lot of the cost difference probably relates to liability. The manufacturer has to handle lawsuits when the batteries explode, taking out either a $90 lawnmower or a $2000 laptop containing $100000 worth of data. Seems like the laptop battery manufacturer probably has to pad the price some to handle lawsuits.
with the insults aside the real reason lies in the fact that a lawnmower is not a laptop a laptop is made up of many extremely delicate components requiring strict tolerances in power output, a lawnmower is made up of brute force motors and rugged circuitry variations in power are not much a concern. so drop the greed/capitalism corporations sticking it to us nonsense and use the brains that God/Allah/ evolution or whomever gave you
Price fixing has been common in the LCD and IC markets, why not the battery market? Price fixing laws are fairly weak in Asia. Companies don't get in trouble unless they dirty their hands in the US or EU.
"what is cheaper, 1 gallon of milk or 8 pints?"
What type of gallon are you talking about? US or English?
Maybe we should just use Litres.
When Best Buy first opened near me, the audio section had cables, speakers for walkmans/discmans, headphones, etc. You could then mosey over to the computer section, and the IDENTICAL ITEMS (brand and all) were marked higher.
No, that didn't last long, but it's the same principle: they didn't think people were paying attention, and I'm sure a lot of people bought stuff from the computer section without ever even checking the audio section.
Stupid, sexy Flanders.
Choice is good.
Segmenting markets, or creating artificial barriers between markets is not capitalism. It's a monopolistic practice.
You keep using that word. It does not mean what you think it means. Market segments are not "artificial barriers", they are simply observed categories. "A market segment is a group of people or organizations sharing one or more characteristics that cause them to have similar product and/or service needs." While it is possible to create a market segment through artificial barriers, this is quite rare and difficult to achieve. Identifying market segments certainly has NOTHING inherently to do with monopolies. Every company uses market segments from the smallest to the largest.
In a capitalist system there are no barriers between markets, there's no such thing as a "market segment".
Capitalism has NOTHING to do with the definition of a market segment. You can have a market segment in a planned economy too. Market segments are simply a way to identify a group with similar needs and/or interests. If you don't know who the customer is and what their needs are, you are going to have a very hard time providing a product that customer will be interested in.
Segments are created artificially to line companies' pockets.
WRONG, segments are identified to understand who will be interested in a particular product. By your definition anything that contributes to understanding the needs of customers is "artificially" lining company's pockets - whatever the hell that means.
In fact... most laptop manufacturers artificially design their laptops and batteries so that a generic battery from someone else cannot be plugged in.
That is an effort to differentiate their product so that they can compete on some basis other than simply price. Sometimes this is a good thing as a differentiated product can potentially serve the needs of a group of customers better. For instance my cell phone has a removable battery but I never remove it so this feature is useless to me. My cell phone could instead be designed to eliminate the extra bulk needed to make it removable and this would serve my needs better. If my phone were instead powered by a standard AAA cell (which would not perform as well and be bulkier) that would eliminate a potential differentiator but it also would likely degrade the performance of the product in the ways that matter to me.
Batteries have different performance levels, weight and charging considerations that make a standard battery problematic in applications like laptops and cell phones. Eventually they may standardize but right now any battery choice carries engineering trade-offs that can make or break the product. A laptop manufacturer would be stupid to try to standardize their batteries any more than they have to right now. Conversely, power supplies in desktop machines are generally not a useful way to differentiate the product for most consumers and as a result they are highly standard and generally produced as cheaply as possible.
It's not about competing technologies it's about many producers trying to sell the most units.
Wrong again. If their goal was to maximize unit sales (instead of profits) they would WANT standardized batteries. This would make the product a commodity (undifferentiated) which would generally result in larger unit sales. You cannot charge as much for an undifferentiated product and you cannot generally expect more than minimal profits. Companies generally try to avoid having undifferentiated products because the profits inevitably go to the lowest cost producer in the long run. This is why computer companies, cellular providers and many other technology based companies try to compete on any basis other than simply price.
99.9% of all laptop li-on batteries are made up from individual 3.3 VDC 18650 cells, 18mm diameter, 65 mm long.
Ipods and phone are made with prismatic li-on batteries.
the 18650 Li-on cell is the D cell of the li-on world.
Panasonic and Moli used to be the world's biggest manufacturers.
I used the buy new, bare, 18650 li-on cells for less than 2 bucks each, to rebuild laptop batteries with.
Generic li-on laptop batteries are available at the factory gates in china for around a buck per 175 mAh
HTH etc
http://slashdot.org/~GuyFawkes/journal
But charging more for something just because the consumer is willing to pay more for it... I guess that crosses the ethical line for me.
Why? If you offer me a price on something and I agree to it, we both have decided that it is a fair deal. If it wasn't fair then why would I agree to the deal? The seller's goal is to charge as much as possible and the buyer's goal is to pay as little as possible and they generally meet somewhere in the middle. Absent some form of coercion there is no ethical line that has been crossed. If someone asks a price that is more than you are willing to pay you generally have the right to walk away from the deal. The definition of a fair deal is one that both parties are willing to agree to. If it wasn't "fair" in your mind, don't agree to the deal.
That's not supply and demand, it's not because it's any better than the other, it's not because its more expensive to make. You're just doing it because you can, and I call that greed.
Turn your argument around. If I try to sell you something why don't you pay me as much as possible? By your logic, if you don't pay me as much as you possibly can for what I'm selling you are being greedy. See? It works both ways which is why your logic doesn't make any sense. You are uncomfortable with the idea that someone might be taking advantage of you but you don't seem to see that you are doing the same thing to them in reverse. Moreover you are presuming that your discomfort means there is some ethical dilemma in play here when there isn't. I'm guessing you don't enjoy negotiating but you do it every day whether you realize it or not. If you decide to not buy something because the price was "too high" in your mind, you are negotiating by your actions. I suppose you can call it greed but you are guilty of the same thing you are accusing the seller of.
Getting a fair deal is YOUR responsibility. If you are interested in buying or selling something, it is up to YOU to decide what it is worth to YOU. This may involve research and effort on your part. No one else can do that for you even if they wanted to. I have no earthly idea what the maximum or minimum price you would be willing to pay for an iPhone is unless we negotiate. There is no ethical issue in play. It simply is a negotiation.
that's where the theory of capitalism fail, if every laptop owner know that it has been ripped of money for nothing in return
than, maybe, market would work (and low the price),
Your logic is flawed. If the laptop buyer is offered a price and agrees to it (absent coercion) the laptop buyer has de-facto decided that the value of the product being offered was a fair compensation for the money tendered. A fair deal is one that both parties are willing to agree to - this is the definition EVERY economist you're likely to ever meet uses.
Furthermore not every laptop buyer wants the same things so their willingness to pay is going to be different. There are some products that sell for prices far beyond what I'd be willing to pay for them and that's ok. The fact that we might pay different prices for the same thing is ok in general because odds are the product is worth different amounts to the two of us. Every time you go into a store and decide to buy or not buy something, you are conducting a negotiation. If too few people are purchasing something at a given price, the price will eventually be lowered. This is how markets work. Sellers adjust prices to match buyer's willingness to pay but the only way to get that information is to offer a price and see if the buyer is interested.
The biggest flaw in your logic however appears when you turn your logic around. If you don't pay as much as possible for your purchases aren't you "ripping off" the sellers who worked hard to provide you that product?
but the main component that influence the market today are publicity and obfuscation of real characteristics and flaws of product not informed comparison of products, where intelligent and informed people could decide if they want more reliable, more durable or cheaper product of a certain kind and, buying it, influence the market production.
Nonsense. There is more information available about products today then there ever has been. I'm guessing you've never tried to sell very much because marketplaces are ruthlessly efficient at adjusting prices to match buyers with sellers. Collectively people are extremely good at deciding what sort of products they want and influencing the market. Individually being informed about your purchases is YOUR responsibility. If you choose to not inform yourself, that is your fault and no one else's. I can't decide for your what you want in a product or what your are willing to pay for it. Only you can decide that.
Half of the laptops used for posting here are already ;-)
In practice, you need some form of voltage converter anyway.
Because a single Li-Ion cell has a voltage of 3.6V while computer components have voltages anywhere between 1V (ultra low voltage CPUs) to 5 V (USB power supply for external devices, according to Wikipedia). There is no way you can satisfy all these needs from the same battery without some adjusting of the voltages.
In fact, a quick look at my preferred computer mail order shop tells me that most laptop batteries have voltages over 10 V, which needs to be converted down for any current PC component. TFA is right by the way: those are pretty expensive per watt-hour.
Which leaves only one valid argument against standardized batteries:
Custom shapes make it easier for the vendors to build small laptops, because they can adjust the battery to fit into whatever space is left by the other components.
C - the footgun of programming languages
It worries the dog when it backs it into a corner, though.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
LI-PO are NOT all the same. Nicad however were.
Li-po can be shaped to fit whatever is needed. Often they are flatish rectangles, layered one atop another, side by side, or singularly like in a cell phone. Your modern cell phone uses a 3.7v lipo.
The standards, when kept, describe the battery. For example, a single cell is 3.7 V. They are labeled by Capacity in Amp hours, Discharge rate (C as in Multiples of Capacity), multiples of S or P or any combination (3s = 11.1v).
"batteries & battery packs" are made of any number of cells in a configuration such that they meet the demands of the device.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
And you can relatively easily open the battery cases. You may have to be willing to desolder the existing cells, but if you can't be fucked doing that then pay the bloody price and shut up.
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Why are laptop hard drives more expensive than desktop ones?
I suspect the answer is the same for both questions.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
No. They have totally different display technologies, among other things. That is a big reason the power consumption is so much lower. I would rather read on a Kindle than on a netbook, if all I did on it was read, for several reasons.
...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
I've just had a BRILLIANT idea! Since you have to move the mower across the lawn to get to the next patch of grass to be cut, you could link up its wheels to drive the blades. You'd probably want to gear it so that the blades spun faster relative to the wheels, and maybe a more efficient blade design would be needed, such as, say, forming the blades into a cylinder rather than a "fan" shape, a bit like a combine harvester. Small and light, it would need no power other than someone pushing it along. I think I'm onto a winner here! Remember folks, you heard about it here first.
Third party knock off brands usually sent straight China.
So, what you are saying is they are made by the same guys making the OEM battery for your laptop (but without the OEM sticker on it)?
They don't work as well and in some cases can even cause damage.
Oh, yes, you are saying they are made by the same guys, because that sounds like Sony batteries to me.
I don't doubt that the technologies are different (Kindles seem to work on reflected light), but I don't think the enhanced functionality justifies the price difference when there's a 90% substitute (i.e. the netbook) available.
I think net tablets will eventually come online after Apple releases their tablet product, after which I expect the Kindle to quietly go the way of the Palm Pilot.
does this mean we are one step to doing our own petrol to electric car conversions ,i notice a lot of sites with supply everything needed however range with current battery's has been the big issue ... all in all good news in the long run ....
Why do computer manufacturers screw customers on battery prices? Because They Can Why we have to have them or do without. The Padrino Dot Com http://www.thepadrino.com/
Ideally, you would create a new standard for your battery and it would get a number assigned. Then anyone who wanted to use your new battery would be able to grab the free specs and send you an order for 1000s of them. Then another manufacture would also get your specs and start producing their own version of the battery using their own technology, but perhaps offering 80% capacity for 70% price. You would be prompted to optimize your process, cut costs, etc, and voila, competition.
Instead, you'll produce your fancy technology in a copyrighted, trademarked, restricted form factor and charge an arm and a leg for it. You won't make any money until another manufacturer tries to produce one that fits and you sue them to hell. Meanwhile, a Chinese manufacturer will produce a cheap knockoff with 25% of the performance, but for pennies on the dollar and still make some change.