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CES Vendors Kicked Out of Hotels For Showcasing Wares in Room

An anonymous reader writes to mention that a number of companies attempting to stretch their dollars by showing their new gear in hotel suites around Vegas during CES were kicked out of the rooms they paid for by CES organizers and hotel staff. According to sources as many as 30 small electronics companies may have been kicked out of The Venetian and The Palazzo on Thursday. One anonymous vendor claims they were coerced into paying $10,000 to the CEA lest they be kicked out of their (paid for) suite and barred from exhibiting or meeting with clients. 'States our source, "I asked the hotel staff if there were any limitations for using the suite. They said the only limitations were how many people were at our parties. They didn't say there were any limitations on displaying product. We set up our product on the first day. Then on Wednesday a cleaning person came in and reported what they saw to management. From there we got kicked out on Thursday."'

285 comments

  1. And this is news why? by suso · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I mean I'm not a show vendor and I even know that doing such things is not ok with hotel management.

    1. Re:And this is news why? by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I mean I'm not a show vendor and I even know that doing such things is not ok with hotel management.

      A lot of the vendors claim they had informal conversations with management who said it was okay:

      More importantly, the vendor's chief representative reports that they had contacted the hotel management before the show and asked if there were any limitations on showing product in the suites. The hotel management at The Venetian reportedly said there were not.

      But then someone at the hotel said:

      A security guard at The Venetian confirmed these reports further, saying he had been involved with "solving" a "lot of problems" at CES. When we inquired what these "problems" were, he stated, "The problems aren't with CES itself, but with people who didn't go through the proper channels to display the products and hold their business meetings."

      So there's your news, it's a he said/he said sort of thing at this point unless you can find the rules to CES that explicitly address this. You know, it could be spun one way saying that the hotel management knew it wasn't going to fly but wanted the moneys and so they lied and kicked them out only after they had the money in their pocket. Should have got it in writing if that was the case. The other way to spin it is that these guys did more than they asked was okay and that bothered management.

      I particularly enjoyed this statement:

      If the vendors can't pay, they can't pay. One smaller company was already kicked out we witnessed today, likely more have been or will be as well. Is this really good for CES, an industry flagbearer? And is it really good for the Las Vegas economy, so dependent on the show?

      It's pretty obvious to me that if you're paying a premium for showing your product at that show, you don't want 2 bit operations setting up in the hotel rooms above you trying to swindle your viewers up to their private quarters. You're there for those people to see your flashy setup. That's why you pay, isn't it? Management and CES could very well have been protecting the interests and quality of the show. Also, I don't think if CES moved it would hurt Vegas all that much. They have some other industries around there that do pretty well despite recessions or any sort of economic downturn.

      And even if it is, why wasn't the CEA and hotel management more clear about restrictions on exhibits and meetings in Las Vegas hotels this week?

      Agreed, brace yourself for a forty page contract written in legal speak to be signed next year before your exhibit and hotel room is inspected and okayed for entrance into the hotel and showroom floor.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    2. Re:And this is news why? by ktappe · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I mean I'm not a show vendor and I even know that doing such things is not ok with hotel management.

      What part of the summary "I asked the hotel staff if there were any limitations for using the suite. They said the only limitations were how many people were at our parties. They didn't say there were any limitations on displaying product" was unclear? It was OK with hotel management.

      There is no way anyone should have modded you up and I'm publicly asking people to mod you down.

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    3. Re:And this is news why? by iamhassi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "I mean I'm not a show vendor and I even know that doing such things is not ok with hotel management."

      you didn't RTFA: "the vendor's chief representative reports that they had contacted the hotel management before the show and asked if there were any limitations on showing product in the suites. The hotel management at The Venetian reportedly said there were not.... "I asked the hotel staff if there were any limitations for using the suite. They said the only limitations were how many people were at our parties. ""

      I think the real lesson here is not to stay at The Venetian. If I want to get a hotel, then invite a few people over to view a new laptop, what business is that of CES? I know CES doesn't want to lose money, but really these small businesses are just moving out of the way for the big guys to get more booths. Intel isn't going to bring people back to a hotel room, and the more companies you have in Las Vegas that week the bigger CES will be, whether they're in their room or on the floor.

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    4. Re:And this is news why? by XPeter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's pretty obvious to me that if you're paying a premium for showing your product at that show, you don't want 2 bit operations setting up in the hotel rooms above you trying to swindle your viewers up to their private quarters. You're there for those people to see your flashy setup. That's why you pay, isn't it? Management and CES could very well have been protecting the interests and quality of the show. Also, I don't think if CES moved it would hurt Vegas all that much. They have some other industries around there that do pretty well despite recessions or any sort of economic downturn.

      You sir, are an idiot.

      The small companies (such as Zalman) that were evicted from the hotels, paid for the room in full without signing any unique agreements. Unless the parties violated the following conditions set forth by many hotels, then they had no right to be kicked out.

      Standards:

      * Disorderly conduct
      * Nonpayment
      * Using the premises for an unlawful purpose or act
      * Bringing property onto the premises that may be dangerous to others
      * Failing to register as a guest
      * Using FALSE PRETENSES to obtain accommodations
      * Being a minor unaccompanied by an adult registered guest
      * Violating federal, state, or local hotel laws or regulations
      * Violating a conspicuously posted hotel or motel rule
      * Failing to vacate a room at the agreed checkout time

      Vegas is STARVING, akin to what Dubai just endured...They need everything they can get. CEA handed the town a nice lump sum, and with that they became the new sheriff in town (obviously abusing their powers).

      --
      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    5. Re:And this is news why? by DragonWriter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What part of the summary "I asked the hotel staff if there were any limitations for using the suite. They said the only limitations were how many people were at our parties. They didn't say there were any limitations on displaying product" was unclear?

      Its not unclear.

      What it is not is confirmed by any source who doesn't have a vested interested in presenting things in a particular light.

      There is a difference between a claim and a fact.

    6. Re:And this is news why? by iamhassi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Intel isn't going to bring people back to a hotel room, and the more companies you have in Las Vegas that week the bigger CES will be, whether they're in their room or on the floor."

      Also once these small time players become larger companies thanks to hotel rooms at CES, do you think they're going to want to associate themselves with the small time players peddling wares out of a hotel room? This is like selling TVs off the back of a truck, if you become successful eventually you'll want to get your own store, and eventually these companies will move out of their rooms and down to CES floor.

      If you don't do this, these smaller companies might band together and get one hotel for themselves that week and do their own thing. Sure 10 grand ain't much to a Vegas hotel, but you get several dozen 10 grands together and some of the smaller hotels might take notice.

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    7. Re:And this is news why? by Unequivocal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree, but remember this is Vegas. Normally to get kicked out of a hotel room, there is a "guests bill of right" which you list pretty effectively.

      But Vegas runs by Vegas' rules. I think the concept that a Vegas hotel will ask a business or person to leave the premises b/c a more important patron doesn't want them there is time honored. Regardless of whether the first party is a customer or not. In that sense I don't think this story is new information on the underlying problem, but it's still aggravating.

    8. Re:And this is news why? by aaandre · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What we see here is the overreaching arrogance of an organization blinded by the belief that they "own" something that can't be owned: others' right to share their products with an audience. Ironically, the show exists precisely because of all these big and little companies make an effort to show up, pay up, and display their products to an audience.

      Now, the middlemen suddenly believe that they own the process of doing so, and not just the real estate of the showfloor.

      It is crucial how the bullied companies react to this insanity. Ideally, big headlines revealing the evilness and stupidity of CES management, and appropriate lawsuits will provide CES with enough incentive to refrain from bullying their own (potential) clients in the future.

      I can see how scared CES may be of the possibility of a parallel tech expo which they can not monetize on. Wouldn't that be a great idea? Lower participation threshold, more indie companies, diversity, and the possibility of fun with fewer constipated uptight suits in the room.

    9. Re:And this is news why? by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Mod parent up! This is similar to something Vegas should understand well: the pre-games for the World Series of Poker - people who don't have $10k to stake on the main event, play a satellite tournament in advance with a $1k stake, and if they win, they get their $10k stake for the big time..

    10. Re:And this is news why? by Sheik+Yerbouti · · Score: 1

      Wait what? He should be modded down because you disagree with him? There is no -1 disagree moderation moderation is not for burying people who's opinions don't line up perfectly or nearly so with yours. Although to be fair that is how most people seem to use it.

    11. Re:And this is news why? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      I think the real lesson here is not to stay at The Venetian.

      The real lesson is to get it in writing.
      If you can't have it in writing then, at a bare minimum,
      document who you talked to, when, and what was said.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    12. Re:And this is news why? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      You, sir, are incredibly naive... (okay, read you're signature, you're only 15, so I guess that's allowed)

      First of all, when CEA comes into town handing the hotels a nice sum, they fully expect that the hotels are going to enforce the policy CEA has handed down for CES. That the hotels did exactly that should come as a surprise to no one.

      Secondly, a hotel can refuse service to anyone, at anytime, for any reason. Hotels are privately-owned businesses. If you don't like the hotels exercising their private property rights, you're free to not patronize The Palazzo or The Venetian. Furthermore, the hotel reserves the right to determine what constitutes "disorderly conduct" or using "false pretenses" to obtain accommodations. Renting out a suite is an obvious attempt to deprive CEA of the money they're asking for a booth.

      Thirdly, if you think The Palazzo or The Venetian are starving, think again. Maybe you don't have the money to stay there, but there are plenty of rich people with money to burn. I recently read an article in the Miami Herald about how, for example, super-luxury 180-360 day cruises around the world (starting at $100,000 and rising to $500,000 and up) aren't hurting one bit, despite the economy.

    13. Re:And this is news why? by Lserevi · · Score: 1

      Why would you believe an anonymous someone who, by their own admission, went out of their way to avoid paying customary fees to the organizer of the event?

    14. Re:And this is news why? by Dahamma · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's pretty obvious to me that if you're paying a premium for showing your product at that show, you don't want 2 bit operations setting up in the hotel rooms above you trying to swindle your viewers up to their private quarters. You're there for those people to see your flashy setup. That's why you pay, isn't it? Management and CES could very well have been protecting the interests and quality of the show. Also, I don't think if CES moved it would hurt Vegas all that much.

      That's a pretty crazy exaggeration/analogy. You are practically comparing the 100's of small startup tech companies who rent suites at CES to hookers or swindlers. Nice.

      Further, your description is not very accurate. The Las Vegas Convention Center is not a hotel, so there is no "swindling viewers up to their private quarters" - in fact, the hotels that rent the largest number of suites to companies (Venetian, Bellagio, Wynn, etc) are no where near the convention center. Many of these companies have no presence at the convention, so how are they "swindling away" anyone? Many of the meetings/demos are private, have no interest/intention of showing their products in public yet, and have been set up between various parties well in advance, so it's not even taking away revenue from the CEA.

      In fact, much of the reason the companies schedule these meetings at CES not to "steal" from the CEA, but simply because that's when all of the executives, press, etc who they want to meet with are in one place at the same time. They save a lot of money and time not having to inefficiently fly everyone around the world for weeks holding one painful meeting at a time. I suppose that is now stealing from the airlines, though...

    15. Re:And this is news why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure that part of the agreement is that you use a suite for either living or small parties - not for such business purposes as "displaying and demoing products" (for which the hotels typically have business space such as meeting rooms and ballrooms). Using the living space for purposes like this increases the foot / elevator traffic above what it is designed for and should indeed be prohibited.

    16. Re:And this is news why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Small time players? The whole world cannot be Intel, but surely everyone on /. has heard of Zallman, one of those removed from the hotel.

    17. Re:And this is news why? by alen · · Score: 1

      almost every hotel room i've been in has a limit of people who can stay before they charge you extra. reason is they budgeted a portion of the money you pay for utilities like water and electricity. if you bring potential customers than they are losing money

    18. Re:And this is news why? by XPeter · · Score: 1

      1. So your justifying that since CES came rolling into town, they are now the new overwhelming authority?

      Handing someone a large sum of money in exchange for them to become your puppet is being anti-competitive, is it not?

      2. These companies were PAYING customers, and under the guidelines most hotels follow (See my OP), they had no jurisdiction to kick them out, it was only when the CEA came in and complained that they were sent packing.

      3. Yes, I'm sure that Vegas is hurting...look at Dubai "The Playground for the Rich". Over the years I've stayed at spruced up places such as The Biltmore (Miami), and eaten at restaurants like Mortons, and maybe it's not declining as rapidly as the middle-class market, but the consumer flow isn't as abundant as it was years ago.

      --
      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    19. Re:And this is news why? by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      These sorts of things are bound by the law. Unfortunately, the only recourse would be to sue, but purporting that they have any legal right to behave this way is dubious.

      At the end of the day the questions become:

      1) Whom would a judge side with?

      2) Is it worth the legal fees and the hassle?

    20. Re:And this is news why? by mmeister · · Score: 1

      Most normal people will look give you a stupid look if you ask to have in writing that you can have a business meeting in the suite you rented for the week. While I could *maybe* understand it if you had a standard room (although even then), but you rented a suite. That would be a place that has separated the bedroom from a meeting place. That seems like standard operating procedure for businessmen on the road.

      No, the Venetian should get a big fat black eye for acting like thugs in what clearly looks to be a CES shakedown that probably is illegal, even in Las Vegas.

    21. Re:And this is news why? by eldavojohn · · Score: 1

      You sir, are an idiot.

      Thank you, I value your constructive input. It's statements like this that really make my day.

      Vegas is STARVING

      Right. Yeah, I've heard this sort of thing before too. Just look at those data points from March:

      Commercial building permits — down 57 percent.

      Commercial building permit values — down 72 percent.

      Passengers at McCarran International Airport — down 14 percent.

      Gross gaming revenue — down 18 percent.

      Visitor volume — down 10.9 percent.

      Convention attendance — down 4.9 percent.

      Gallons of gasoline used — down 5.3 percent. That is an indicator of out-of-state visitors and transportation of goods.

      Never mind that with those adjustments their revenues are still well above average. See, when growth slows, people scream like Vegas is dying.

      Yet I was there in November and was a single one of the casinos closed? Nope. Oh well, they have to put off plans to demo the older ones ... why are they doing that? To build tons of newer ones, of course. The casinos and restaurants were still bustling but by news reports, you'd think the economy was tanking. So what happened? Who went under? What closed? Oh, decadent plans to demolish and rebuild were put off? I feel horrible for poor Vegas.

      Vegas is STARVING, akin to what Dubai just endured

      Well, I'm no economist but I know enough that comparing Vegas -- something that has been a cash cow for decades -- to the relatively recent startup of Dubai is not a prudent analogy to attempt by anyone.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    22. Re:And this is news why? by Albanach · · Score: 4, Informative

      Crikey, hotel suites exist for two purposes. 1, Folk with money who want space, and 2, business people who need space to meet clients without inviting them into their bedroom.

      Journalists book suites to conduct interviews, senior business people use them to conduct large transactions. I'd guess in most hotels, suites are used more for business than they are for ordinary guests.

    23. Re:And this is news why? by ShadowBlasko · · Score: 1

      Well, it seems to depend on the market.

      I've done fetish shows and high end precious and semi-precious gemstone shows where I would estimate that at least 50% of the selling goes on before or after hours.

      Basically, any kind of product where;
      1) The retailer may not be comfortable with the products for fear of blackmail [Just because you are a high end jewelry and clothing boutique, doesn't mean you don't sell latex corsets and vac beds on weekends]
      2) Prices are based more on what the seller knows than what the product is worth. [gem shows are huge for that kind of thing.
      3) Where price depends on venue. [That $200 piece of white turquoise might be worth $100 in Tuscon, but $500 in Chicaqo] So prices are best discussed in a private setting.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order- Ed Howdershelt Via Tass
    24. Re:And this is news why? by changa · · Score: 0, Redundant

      What is weird about this is the High end audio rooms have been at the Venetian for at least 2 years now and much business and product is shown off there.

      I can only think some companies did something weird and stupid.

    25. Re:And this is news why? by beh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I mean I'm not a show vendor and I even know that doing such things is not ok with hotel management.

      A lot of the vendors claim they had informal conversations with management who said it was okay:

      I think the mention of them claiming to have had informal conversations is not really relevant to it - if anyone renting a hotel room asks are there any limitations - is the person they're talking to expected to mind-read that you would like to turn it into a sales-stand? ...or should he, to be safe, simply respond:
        You must not destroy any fittings and furniture, you may not repaint the room, take out and/or put in new carpeting/flooring, ... You must not murder anyone in the room, rape anyone in the room, ...., kidnap, take hostages, ... (insert-endless-list-of-things-that you should NOT do - simply based on them either being illegal, or simply not being seen as desirable by management).

      The simple question are there any limitations is most likely seen as 'obvious/unexpected limitations'. Most hotels rent out separate conference rooms for sales pitches and the like, and therefore would not - by default - expect anyone asking about limitations in using the room to use the normal room for sales pitches...

      So, unless they explicitly asked management "are you fine with us using our room for displaying some of our goods to potential clients, and possibly trying to close deals with said clients?", I do not think that the management was out of line in saying there weren't any (unusual) limitations.

      If you think the behaviour of the hotel was wrong here, expect your life to get an awful lot of more small print for anything from grocery shopping to using a public toilet, just so that the 'vendor' can introduce you to all possible limitations to your stay...

    26. Re:And this is news why? by changa · · Score: 5, Informative

      High end audio was in the Venetian for at least 2 years and that meant people had open rooms with the furnature moved to show off speakers and gear.  That practice has been going on for decades in hotels and I can't imagine why they would suddenly kick people out unless it was an individual stupidity.

    27. Re:And this is news why? by XPeter · · Score: 1

      Yet I was there in November and was a single one of the casinos closed? Nope. Oh well, they have to put off plans to demo the older ones ... why are they doing that? To build tons of newer ones, of course. The casinos and restaurants were still bustling but by news reports, you'd think the economy was tanking. So what happened? Who went under? What closed? Oh, decadent plans to demolish and rebuild were put off? I feel horrible for poor Vegas.

      You think like the people at CEA. Lets not pay attention to the small/medium guys who can't afford it here, and only to our rich friends such as Samsung and Microsoft. When those small businesses and the middle classes move out, that's when everything comes to a collapse. Being harsh to these tiny start ups now will only have an adverse affect in the future.

      It's your naive way of thinking (Oh, as long as the rich are going to gamble at the casino and fuck some hoes it's alright that Joe six-pack has to sell his home) that led us into the bad economy, because you fail to see the big picture.

      --
      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    28. Re:And this is news why? by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Read the title again. It's WARES not WHORES.

    29. Re:And this is news why? by Xeno+man · · Score: 1

      WTF? They are talking and conducting business, Not showering with each other!

    30. Re:And this is news why? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      1. So your justifying that since CES came rolling into town, they are now the new overwhelming authority?

      Handing someone a large sum of money in exchange for them to become your puppet is being anti-competitive, is it not?

      Not at all. They rented out the hotel's conference center and a huge block of rooms. That makes the hotel CES' bitch.

      2. These companies were PAYING customers, and under the guidelines most hotels follow (See my OP), they had no jurisdiction to kick them out, it was only when the CEA came in and complained that they were sent packing.

      A hotel is private property. That's all the 'jurisdiction' they need. They can remove anyone from their property they wish.

      3. Yes, I'm sure that Vegas is hurting...look at Dubai "The Playground for the Rich".

      Vegas != Dubai.

    31. Re:And this is news why? by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "Management and CES could very well have been protecting the interests and quality of the show."

      CES gets more money from you when you have a booth at the convention center. More and more companies -- BIG companies -- are abandoning booths and, instead, renting suites or ballrooms at the hotels. CES is watching their revenues evaporate, and is retaliating by punishing vendors.

      Note that this is largely happening to vendors who are turning suites into full-blown display showcases; basically, a booth in a suite. Folks who use suites for meetings, with a few odd products on display (ie. those who might not have had a booth in the first place), have not been hassled.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    32. Re:And this is news why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a pretty crazy exaggeration/analogy. You are practically comparing the 100's of small startup tech companies who rent suites at CES to hookers or swindlers. Nice.

      It's almost as if such a thing is illegal in most cities! Maybe the analogy of that to illegal activities isn't so far off the mark, eh?

    33. Re:And this is news why? by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Secondly, a hotel can refuse service to anyone, at anytime, for any reason.

      No, it can't. There are quite a few limitations, race being one of them. Its certainly not anything goes.

      If you don't like the hotels exercising their private property rights, you're free to not patronize The Palazzo or The Venetian.

      Except that the people in question already paid for the room, so clearly they were fine with them staying there. The problem is that this is all after the fact.

      Furthermore, the hotel reserves the right to determine what constitutes "disorderly conduct" or using "false pretenses" to obtain accommodation.

      Again, no it doesn't. Those words describe crimes, which are not at the hotels discrimination, they are at the police's.

      Renting out a suite is an obvious attempt to deprive CEA of the money they're asking for a booth.

      No other business can use the hotel when CES is there? Interesting assertion. Also, note that the hotel said the presentions were fine and dandy.. oh, and this isn't new, CES was apparently fine with it in previous years. So somehow the whole "wahh! they're depriving me of money!" doesn't hold.

      Thirdly, if you think The Palazzo or The Venetian are starving, think again. Maybe you don't have the money to stay there, but there are plenty of rich people with money to burn. I recently read an article in the Miami Herald about how, for example, super-luxury 180-360 day cruises around the world (starting at $100,000 and rising to $500,000 and up) aren't hurting one bit, despite the economy.

      The rest of the surrounding businesses, which would benefit by increased numbers of people in Vegas, I'm sure would like these people to stay.

      Oh, and $370 / night isn't exactly "super-luxury."

    34. Re:And this is news why? by sootman · · Score: 1

      >> "I asked... They said..."

      > I think the real lesson here is not to stay at The Venetian.

      Since The Venitian is hardly the first, last, or only company that ever has fucked over/will fuck over a customer, an additional lesson is "If it's important, get it in writing." Who's to say the Bellagio or Mandalay Bay won't do this to someone else in the future?

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    35. Re:And this is news why? by shark72 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "The Las Vegas Convention Center is not a hotel, so there is no "swindling viewers up to their private quarters" - in fact, the hotels that rent the largest number of suites to companies (Venetian, Bellagio, Wynn, etc) are no where near the convention center."

      The Wynn is reasonably close to the LVCC; that's why many companies have suites there.

      "Many of these companies have no presence at the convention, so how are they "swindling away" anyone? Many of the meetings/demos are private, have no interest/intention of showing their products in public yet, and have been set up between various parties well in advance, so it's not even taking away revenue from the CEA."

      Ah, but many companies are fleeing the LVCC and moving to suites. Revenue is being taken away from the CEA. Logitech quit renting booth space a couple of years ago and moved to a cheaper meeting room in the LVCC. Creative Labs downsized their booth dramatically and held their meetings in a suite at the Wynn. XM/Sirius moved from the show floor to the Bellagio last year. These are just some examples in the industry I'm familiar with, but there are many, many more. This is why you probably noticed that the LVCC was a bit lonelier this year than it was last year, and if the trend continues, will get even more sparsely populated. There's still traffic at the LVCC, to be sure, but CEA sees the writing on the wall.

      There's a secondary effect: as buyers get more used to visiting hotel suites, rather than going to the show floor, traffic to the LVCC is further reduced and creating even less incentive for vendors to place booths there. I didn't even need to buy a show pass this year.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    36. Re:And this is news why? by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "I know CES doesn't want to lose money, but really these small businesses are just moving out of the way for the big guys to get more booths. Intel isn't going to bring people back to a hotel room, and the more companies you have in Las Vegas that week the bigger CES will be, whether they're in their room or on the floor."

      This is not completely accurate. Plenty of mid- to large-size companies are pulling out of the LVCC, too. It's getting harder and harder for the CEA to sell floor space. The spaces vacated by companies going to booths is NOT all being taken up by other companies. If it were, there would not be a problem -- but that's just not the case.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    37. Re:And this is news why? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Vegas is STARVING, akin to what Dubai just endured...
      ... but nothing compared to what Vegas is going to endure when no-one comes next year.

    38. Re:And this is news why? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 0

      No, it can't. There are quite a few limitations, race being one of them. Its certainly not anything goes.

      While there are various laws that vary greatly from state to state, there are no federal hotel consumer protections other than the general protections found in contract law and torte law. See this for more information.

      Generally, consumer protections in various states deal things like liability for lost or stolen valuables, a requirement to post the maximum rates for each room, requirements to conspicuously post hotel policies regarding check out time, emergency exit locations, etc. Most states have no specific laws on the books whatsoever in regard to race or anything else. In general, a hotel management can deny service to anyone for pretty much any reason. If you've prepaid for a room and get ejected, your sole remedy is that available under contract and torte law. Which, in most states means the hotel has to refund your money. That's about it.

      Like most people, you assume many, many things which are simply untrue.

    39. Re:And this is news why? by Fritz+T.+Coyote · · Score: 1

      Folks who use suites for meetings, with a few odd products on display (ie. those who might not have had a booth in the first place), have not been hassled.

      Especially folks who have the hotel supply massive quantities of food and drink (at premium prices) for hospitality events.

      Getting prospective customers drunk is a time-honored selling technique.

      We won't even start on the (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) 'hostesses' that will help important prospects feel more comfortable.

    40. Re:And this is news why? by pauls2272 · · Score: 3, Informative

      >Most states have no specific laws on the books whatsoever in regard to race or >anything else. In general, a hotel management can deny service to anyone for >pretty much any reason

      States don't need one because there is a Federal law:

      Its called Federal Public Accommodation Law:

      http://public.findlaw.com/civil-rights/civil-rights-enforcement/public-accommodation-discrimination-enforcement.html

    41. Re:And this is news why? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      you didn't RTFA: "the vendor's chief representative reports that they had contacted the hotel management before the show and asked if there were any limitations on showing product in the suites. The hotel management at The Venetian reportedly said there were not.... "I asked the hotel staff if there were any limitations for using the suite. They said the only limitations were how many people were at our parties. ""

      Did he talk to the Manager or some other "supervisory" type? Or did he talk to some Front Desk Monkey? Perhaps he was given bad information?

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    42. Re:And this is news why? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      Correct. A suite is a swank office with a bedroom.

    43. Re:And this is news why? by saaaammmmm · · Score: 1

      You're in the wrong business!

    44. Re:And this is news why? by D+Ninja · · Score: 2, Insightful

      WTF? They are talking and conducting business, Not showering with each other!

      In Vegas, that could very well be the same thing...

      (Now the question is, do I get modded Insightful or Funny for the above statement.)

    45. Re:And this is news why? by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      Add to that the Uniform Commercial Code, which Nevada is a signatory state.

      The CEA and the hotels acted like the Mob. Reservations made under non-CES/CEA representation should be void of this problem. And the CEA's legal department will have a new problem to deal with, it sounds like. So be it.

      Maybe it's the mirth and warmth of the RIAA and the MPAA that makes me want to see them spanked for being boorish and bullies. Again.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    46. Re:And this is news why? by Dahamma · · Score: 2, Insightful

      None of this should make any difference to an unrelated contract between a hotel and a vendor.

      In the end, you know what this is? Capitalism. If the CEA wants to keep vendors from fleeing to cheaper venues, do you know what they need to do? LOWER THEIR PRICES.

      Last I heard it was at least $40 per sq ft to rent floor space - that's $20,000 for just 500sq ft for 4 days. And that doesn't include the thousands more for any furniture, thousands for often crappy Internet access, overpaid labor to do any setup, or even the $3 per bottle of water (and woe to anyone who tries to bring their own!)

      And have you ever been in their "meeting rooms"? A confusing sea of temporary walls that look like they are about to fall down, with minimal amenities. Why should a company be forced to have private meetings there (and pay even more, of course), whether they are renting booth space or not?

    47. Re:And this is news why? by AndersOSU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sorry, how do you rectify this, "Gross gaming revenue — down 18 percent" with your statement that revenues are up? That's not a slow in growth, that's a decrease.

      That and Vegas has one of the most depressed real estate markets in the country.

    48. Re:And this is news why? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      You didn't even READ the article you posted. It's about people illegally using their condos and apartments as cheap hotel rooms. It has nothing to do with having a business meeting in a real hotel room.

    49. Re:And this is news why? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      that article is about renting out rooms in private residences - and is in no way relevant to the discussion about whether or not businesses are allowed to hold business meetings in legitimate hotel rooms.

    50. Re:And this is news why? by brainboyz · · Score: 1

      No, we have a bad economy because Mr. Moron at the bank and Mr. A. Hole Politician bent over backwards to bend the rules and get Joe Six-pack a home when his credit wouldn't normally allow it. Then Mr. Shady at the investment firm bundled them in a way to sell them off w/o disclosing the actual risk factor. Toss in a few extra taxes to skim a little more off the top of businesses, and things go to hell in a handbasket. Big picture has nothing to do with it.

    51. Re:And this is news why? by txwikinger-slashdot · · Score: 1

      Secondly, a hotel can refuse service to anyone, at anytime, for any reason. Hotels are privately-owned businesses. If you don't like the hotels exercising their private property rights, you're free to not patronize The Palazzo or The Venetian. Furthermore, the hotel reserves the right to determine what constitutes "disorderly conduct" or using "false pretenses" to obtain accommodations. Renting out a suite is an obvious attempt to deprive CEA of the money they're asking for a booth.

      Well.. Even hotels are privately-owned enterprises, they are no sheriffs. If someone books a room in a hotel, a legal contract is formed. Even the hotel must obey by the terms of the contract, or they are in breach of contract and can be ask to pay compensation if necessary by trial in court.

      False pretenses must be proven. A question if the use of the room is limited could make the argument that there was no attempt of a false pretense since then you would not ask any questions which could result in an answer you would want to avoid.

      The CEA is not party to the contract between the hotel and the patron and hence due to privity in contract cannot ask any other terms to be enforced. All terms would have to been made explicitly communicate by the hotel to the patron before the contract was finalized, i.e. the room was booked.

      IAAL, however, as usual, this does not constitute legal advise. If you need legal advise to your particular situation, please retain a properly accredited lawyer for the jurisdiction in question.

    52. Re:And this is news why? by txwikinger-slashdot · · Score: 1

      1) Whom would a judge side with?

      Or jury.. however, in this case the amount probably rather puts it into a small claims court, hence a judge. Maybe they should take the case to Judge Judy ;)

    53. Re:And this is news why? by icebike · · Score: 1

      >But Vegas runs by Vegas' rules.

      Not after the law suits come in.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    54. Re:And this is news why? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      A hotel is private property. That's all the 'jurisdiction' they need.

      Try that in court. As private property owners, they may have the right to turf anyone, anytime, but they've still entered a contract to let that person use the room in exchange for money. This smells like breach of contract, and it smells like an ENORMOUS damages payout. You don't get to just claim back what you paid, you get to claim back damages caused by the breach of contract - if the hotel has destroyed their major marketing opportunity for the year, that could probably run into hundreds of thousands. And good. If this puts them out of business, all the better.

      --
      FGD 135
    55. Re:And this is news why? by HappyDrgn · · Score: 1

      You missed one on the list:

      * "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"

      Not that I agree with what they did, but it's the Hotels right to refuse service.

    56. Re:And this is news why? by icebike · · Score: 1

      Small claims?

      Howbout RICO. There were many kicked out and all they have to do is find prior incidences of it happening.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    57. Re:And this is news why? by txwikinger-slashdot · · Score: 1

      Well.. RICO is criminal law and not civil law. It would not allow the patrons to ask for their money back or other related damages.

    58. Re:And this is news why? by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      If that is truly the case, CES should have made the list of things you can and can't do public, and have all the companies agree to them before paying any fees, hotel room charges, travel charges, etc.

      I think the issue here is the companies didn't think they were doing anything wrong, because they were not informed of the rules. (And in at least one case the company asked permission to the hotel and was granted permission by the hotel to have meetings.) If they had known they absolutely could not display products or have any meetings in their rooms beforehand, none of this would have been an issue. We know CES is a big customer to the hotel, but just because they spend some money does not give them the right to change the rules as they see fit. And if their argument is that the casinos lose money due to decreased gambling, and CES makes up the difference, then CES should have bought every room in the hotel out, and had the vendors arrange their stay directly with CES. Then they could have informed each company of the rules themselves, and could easily justify the additional rules with the fact they are paying the casinos the difference.

      And while you are correct that hotels are private property, and the hotels can kick you out for any reason, they CANNOT keep all the money paid to rent the rooms. They can kick you out, but they have to refund your money unless you break the rules/laws established regarding hotels.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    59. Re:And this is news why? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Depending on who you are, an Intel may very well bring you back to a suite to show you new things.

      Trade shows are in decline because of the challenges here: The big players have less of an incentive to do them (as they can make their own events), and for the smaller guys, the ROI just doesn't warrant the expense.

    60. Re:And this is news why? by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 1

      The simple question are there any limitations is most likely seen as 'obvious/unexpected limitations'. Most hotels rent out separate conference rooms for sales pitches and the like, and therefore would not - by default - expect anyone asking about limitations in using the room to use the normal room for sales pitches...

      So, unless they explicitly asked management "are you fine with us using our room for displaying some of our goods to potential clients, and possibly trying to close deals with said clients?", I do not think that the management was out of line in saying there weren't any (unusual) limitations.

      Most hotels sell drinks at their own bar, does this mean they don't expect anyone asking about limitations in using the room to use the normal room for drinking. Ditto for restaurants and eating. It seems to me that the hotels don't "expect" any specific activities from their patrons. What they do expect is that their patrons refrain from activities that: are destructive to hotel property; unduly disturb the other patrons; disproportionately inconvenience or overburden their staff; or are illegal. It seems to me that very few, if any, of these meetings/expositions would have been the kinds of activity that hotels (pretty) universally discourage.

      --
      Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
    61. Re:And this is news why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Advise is a verb. Advice is the noun.

    62. Re:And this is news why? by Myopic · · Score: 1

      You are practically comparing the 100's of small startup tech companies who rent suites at CES to hookers or swindlers.

      The difference is that hookers actually have customers.

    63. Re:And this is news why? by blueskies · · Score: 1

      It's pretty obvious to me that if you're paying a premium for showing your product at that show, you don't want 2 bit operations setting up in the hotel rooms above you trying to swindle your viewers up to their private quarters.

      Are you for real? You invite people to Vegas and you worry about people getting SWINDLED? Please! Don't start with morals in sin city.

    64. Re:And this is news why? by achbed · · Score: 1

      Refuse service is not the same as take your cash and kick you out. That's called robbery.

    65. Re:And this is news why? by stonewallred · · Score: 1

      When a hotel rents space to an organization that has vendors, either for off site sales or for selling stuff to the people attending, they are contractually bound to prevent other sellers, not affiliated with or paying for booths, from displaying or selling goods. For the record, if your stuff is so good, then market it to the companies individually and properly. Breaking the rules would make me not buy your crap.

    66. Re:And this is news why? by afidel · · Score: 1

      These guys were avoiding a $10k entry fee for THE industry tradeshow and you think they have the money to sustain a lawsuit against the mega gaming operators? LOL!

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    67. Re:And this is news why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your sole remedy is that available under contract and torte law.

      So, if you didn't buy anything from the hotel bakery, you're just fucked?

    68. Re:And this is news why? by mbstone · · Score: 1

      Written contracts (such as the one guests sign when they check in at the Venetian) override oral promises. IAAL.

      Fail to learn this and you will be whining every time you buy a used car or join a health club.

    69. Re:And this is news why? by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      CES and the hotels strike me as an annoying credit card company.

      "We'd like to offer you this free insurance. It protects you up to $10,000 in case of injury. Furthermore, you'll never have to pay the $10,000 back. There are no addtional fees, and no cancellation charges within 30 days."

      The insurance has no activation fee, (making it free), but it adds 9% to everything you buy. Note: this is not an additonal fee - it's just the regulate rate for the freely activated insurance. And of course, there are no cancellation charges within 30 days. But if you used your credit card, the rate is non-refundable.
      The only positive part above is the $10,000 you never have to pay back. Too bad you can't cancel it until you do, so you'd be stuck with a 9% transaction rate forever. ;)

      I suspect CES used great sounding terminology - which any lawyer would zoom in on and shudder, because it's setting you up to be screwed.

      Zalman, huh? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happened.

    70. Re:And this is news why? by Roblimo · · Score: 1

      WARES instead of WHORES until right after the CES, when the Adult Entertainment show moves in -- and I'm sure unaffiliated hookers aren't allowed in hotel rooms during *that* show. Ha ha ha.

    71. Re:And this is news why? by nacturation · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, how do you rectify this, "Gross gaming revenue — down 18 percent" with your statement that revenues are up?

      You need to be more precise. The statement was "revenues are still well above average". If the average revenue is $1X and last year it was $2X, if you're down 18%, $1.72X is still above the average of $1X.

      Mind you, I don't know if that's true but you need to check your math skills if you think that a decrease in one year's revenue cannot still be above the annual average over a period of years.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    72. Re:And this is news why? by nacturation · · Score: 1

      Ah, but many companies are fleeing the LVCC and moving to suites. Revenue is being taken away from the CEA.

      I didn't go to Las Vegas at all this year. I suppose that means I took revenue away from the CEA too?

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    73. Re:And this is news why? by daniel_newby · · Score: 1

      The RICO Act is civil law and provides for harsh punitive damages (up to three times actual losses). It also has a rather expansive definition of "conspirator", so CES exhibitors who requested or knew of any racketeering could be attached as defendants. On the other hand, RICO is a Federal law, so prosecution is expensive and time consuming.

    74. Re:And this is news why? by lpq · · Score: 1

      In a suite? That you pay for? That staff said had only restrictions on number of occupants (so as to comply with legal fire codes)?

      I'd say they have grounds for a lawsuit.

      Imagine going to any comic con, or sci-con and being thrown out of a room where you were hosting a party?! It would be outrageous! People often rent large rooms -- suites to be able to throw parties with lots of people sharing interests of the convention. How is this any different?

      Sounds like complete bull to me from what the story says. Unless there was some written agreement prohibiting them from discussing or showing their interests at the convention, I'd be feeling more than a bit litigious right about now.

    75. Re:And this is news why? by dosilegecko · · Score: 1

      If this puts them out of business, all the better.

      This is just funny to me. Yes, In a recession, lets hope more businesses go under and more people become jobless. VOTE OBAMA!

    76. Re:And this is news why? by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      Secondly, a hotel can refuse service to anyone, at anytime, for any reason. Hotels are privately-owned businesses

      Then the companies/people who booked the suites need to get every penny refunded to them.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    77. Re:And this is news why? by eschasi · · Score: 1

      You sir, are an idiot. Speaking as a 30-year veteran of the convention and exhibition circuit, you, sir, are ignorant. Most hotel agreements prohibit use of the room for commercial activity. That doesn't simply mean buying and selling, it also means meeting with potential customers and exhibiting. Now, that said . . . most ordinary hotels turn a blind eye to this sort of thing. But hotels which are affiliated with major exhibitions tend to enforce the rule rather strictly. The exhibition area makes its money by renting the exhibition space, and they correctly expect the hotel to not undercut them by allowing 'free' exhibitions in what are supposed to be sleeping rooms. As for the folks who are suggesting lawsuits - try looking up some precedents. Lose, lose, lose.

    78. Re:And this is news why? by eschasi · · Score: 1

      What part of the summary "I asked the hotel staff if there were any limitations for using the suite. They said the only limitations were how many people were at our parties. They didn't say there were any limitations on displaying product" was unclear? It was OK with hotel management.

      I agree these guys got blindsided by whoever they spoke to. But time and again I've seen cases where the guest says "your guy said it was OK" (and actually had it in writing) and the hotel manager said (politely) "I'm sorry, but he was wrong" and held up the regulation (local, state, hotel-specific, whatever). If the guy was lucky enough to get it in writing, the hotel typically offers something back on the room or does their best to accommodate. Good places do that. Bad places don't. But as long as the hotel has written policy on its side (and I'll betcha the Vegas hotels do, in this case), the guest will ultimately lose.

    79. Re:And this is news why? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      I hardly think that one hotel run by morons going under will cause the natinal economy to collapse.

      --
      FGD 135
    80. Re:And this is news why? by dosilegecko · · Score: 1

      Yes but more people losing jobs won't help anyone! Losing even just 100 jobs is a big deal. Also, where have you been? Last time I checked, the economy already DID collapse.

  2. wrong tag line by alen · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    this should be a YRO article

    1. Re:wrong tag line by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your rights ______ ?

    2. Re:wrong tag line by biryokumaru · · Score: 2, Funny

      Your rights ______ ?

      Offline.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
  3. So... by XPeter · · Score: 5, Interesting

    To sum up TFA:

    1. CEA buys out Vegas for a week, attracting technology enthusiasts and large companions from across the globe.
    2. Said organization is holding the balls of local buisness so tight, that they must bend over to anything the CEA demands.
    (In this instance it was having The Venetian, The Palazzo kick out small/medium tech buisnesses who couldn't afford a CES floor spot onto the streets unless they paid the hefty fee of $10,000)
    3. ???
    4. Profit!

    Another evil coorperation fucking over the little guy, nothing to see here folks.

    --
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    1. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, let's look at it from the other way...

      1: Organization spends millions advertising and setting up one of the most well known trade shows.
      2: Said organization finds out one of the hotels it is paying truckloads of money to is renting out rooms to vendors who want to be associated with their show, but not pay the fees which make it happen.
      3: Hotel, realizing which side of the bread the butter is, kicks out small vendor.
      4: Small vendor whines that they can't get free publicity from demoing their stuff at CES, that they have to actually pay for it.
      5: Whining gets small vendor free publicity.
      6: ???
      7: Profit!

      Another attempt at getting free publicity. Nothing to see here, move along.

    2. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CES? Isn't that where they're showing all of that "3D" TV crap that nobody really gives a fuck about? And the next generation of locked-down mobile devices that run only the shittiest, vendor-approved apps?

    3. Re:So... by XPeter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your saying that it's acceptable for a cooperation to endorse monopolistic business practices?

      Lets say I'm going to open a brand new WalMart here in my town, and I just spent a large wad of cash advertising for it. Does the mom n pop grocery shop across the way not have the right to operate? I think not.

      When signing up for the hotel, companies such as Zalman ASKED the hotels if there were any pretenses to having a gallery in their rooms, and the hotels answered no. The problem here is that the CEA became flustered and used their $$$ to kick out mom n' pop.

      It's called being anti-competitive.

      --
      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    4. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your saying that it's acceptable for a cooperation to endorse monopolistic business practices?

      What monopoly? Huh? Wha?

      Lets say I'm going to open a brand new WalMart here in my town, and I just spent a large wad of cash advertising for it. Does the mom n pop grocery shop across the way not have the right to operate? I think not.

      Sure they have the right to operate. But do they have the right to open up a store in the same strip mall called "WallMort", with the same blue colors and tacky look, that sells the same crap? Nope.

      When signing up for the hotel, companies such as Zalman ASKED the hotels if there were any pretenses to having a gallery in their rooms, and the hotels answered no. The problem here is that the CEA became flustered and used their $$$ to kick out mom n' pop. It's called being anti-competitive.

      Again, you keep using terms I don't think you understand. It's not anti-competitive... they're keeping somebody from piggybacking on their investment.

      The problem here is the hotel said one thing, and did another. The fault here lies with THE VENETIAN. Not CES. And it's certainly not 'a monopoly' or 'anti-competitive'...

    5. Re:So... by spatley · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is worth noting that the Venetian is also an official CES venue in their convention space so CEA is not just a big pull on the industry, but a big pull on the Venetian for some pretty hefty revenue. This does not take conspiracy theory, this is a corporate entity throwing a small client under the bus to make a gigantic client happy. Standard procedure in big business.

    6. Re:So... by XPeter · · Score: 1

      Since you question my competetence, here's the definition for anti-competetive

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-competitive

      The CEA is prohibiting other business' from preforming perfectly legal actions.

      Just because a company is bigger than yours, doesn't give it the authority to prohibit you from selling your merchandise.

      Lastly, it's not creating a WallMort. It's creating a NEW market for those interested in what these smaller-businesses have to offer, you can't suggest that CES is going to cry bankruptcy because of some competition.

      If I go and fly to Vegas to grab a hooker, that doesn't tie me to that girl unless there is some binding contract (Which in this case, is non-existent), so I'm free to go and check out another lady if I please.

      --
      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    7. Re:So... by pj2541 · · Score: 1

      Look at the privacy aspects (and call a lawyer, fast!)

      1: A cleaning person observes something in a hotel room (it's set up to demo equipment) and informs the hotel management. Note that this is behavior which happens all the time in Vegas, and is not objectionable.

      2: The hotel management reports this (the contents of my hotel room) to a third party (CEA) who then convinces the hotel to act on this information.

      Here's where I need a lawyer. I don't know what specific laws they violated, but I feel violated, and I'm going to sue that hotel until I own it.

      As an example, assume that a person was having an affair, and the hotel reported the name of the mistress to the wife, leading to a divorce. I'm pretty sure that hotel could be sued successfully for the breach of privacy.

    8. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The CEA is prohibiting other business' from preforming perfectly legal actions.

      They're not perfectly legal. They're trying to associate their product with CES, without compensating CES.

      Just because a company is bigger than yours, doesn't give it the authority to prohibit you from selling your merchandise.

      They're not stopping anybody from selling anything. They're stopping them from getting a junket out of CES, without paying their share of the costs of running CES.

      Lastly, it's not creating a WallMort. It's creating a NEW market for those interested in what these smaller-businesses have to offer, you can't suggest that CES is going to cry bankruptcy because of some competition.

      Then launch it at some other hotel, or some other week. Trying to launch it then and there is a shameless attempt at piggybacking on CES.

      If I go and fly to Vegas to grab a hooker, that doesn't tie me to that girl unless there is some binding contract (Which in this case, is non-existent), so I'm free to go and check out another lady if I please.

      CES has contracts with the hotels they're in. The hotel violated that contract and had to make good. Again. CES did nothing wrong. The small vendors did nothing illegal (or, in my opinion, wrong). The hotel royally screwed the pooch if a manager there claimed these businesses could host product demos in their rooms, despite the hotel's contracts with CES.

    9. Re:So... by Xeno+man · · Score: 1

      Sure they have the right to operate. But do they have the right to open up a store in the same strip mall called "WallMort", with the same blue colors and tacky look, that sells the same crap? Nope.

      Sure they do, why the fuck wouldn't they? Anyone has the right to open a store of any size in any location and sell anything they want. The only thing they can't do is use the exact same name and logo. It can be blue but it just has to be different enough. Need a real life example. Look at all the dollar stores and all the similar stores to them. The 99 cent store, a buck or two, The Dollar store, A Buck and Up, ect... The same stores selling the same crap with smiler names in lots of places next to one another.

    10. Re:So... by Chubby_C · · Score: 1
      Wouldn't it be more appropriate to describe it as such?

      Walmart opens up in a town (CES booking conference center) Space leased from a property management company (hotels drive business from vistors)

      Random other people show up who don't want to lease storefront space in the same plaza as Walmart but rather decide to start selling their wares from a van in the parking lot of the landlord (Business setup in hotel rooms that are driving business from CES)

      Landlord chases out those who are competing with their bread and butter customer - Walmart (CES & its guests)

      Sure those who are visiting Walmart/CES may like to see what the other vendors are selling but doesn't bode well for the landlord to allow the competition.

      Does this analogy even make sense? I'm not too sure myself now, they're tough to write sometimes.

      --
      - My question is: Can Slashdot be Slashdotted? -
    11. Re:So... by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      "different enough". Is "WallMort" different enough? That would be for a jury to decide.

  4. That is positively asinine. by jcr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Vendors have been showing their products in hotel hospitality suites for decades. I've never been to any trade show yet where this wasn't the case. I don't know what the hell CES management is thinking if they consider this any kind of a problem.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely! do they think the suites are only for ho's and coke?

    2. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      "I've never been to any trade show yet where this wasn't the case."

      Even companies that have floor space MOST have some sort of suite where the big guys can come in and play with the gear without having to deal with the riffraff.

      I'm headed out to a show in a few days in LA that I've been invited to a few...last time I was out there, I thought I was meeting up with the pres of an overseas company to see his products, and it ended up being a suite full of scantily dressed hookers and coke. Only speaking broken Japanese, I apologized to the gentleman as I figured I had the wrong room.

      I quickly got the hell out of there...my buddy, however, decided to stick around for a while...turns out it WAS the guy were were supposed to meet!

      They had one of the biggest sq ft on the floor, bit there was OBVIOUSLY a reason he needed to have his suite private...kinda wish I had stuck around!

    3. Re:That is positively asinine. by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They paid for the rooms, same as everybody else. The hotel had no objections to what they were doing...

      Sure, the timing means that they were taking advantage of the marketing for CES, but that's not against the law. (Hell, it's an old long-standing tradition, if anything.)

      Don't make excuses for this asshole move.

    4. Re:That is positively asinine. by Kemanorel · · Score: 5, Informative

      Having stayed at the Venetian the week before CES two years ago, I can say without a doubt that it is usually standard practice to hold meetings in hotel rooms. I had been upgraded to a suite there and the night before I was to check out, hotel staff were removing beds (mattresses and frames) from every room in the same wing and floor I was staying on. I can only imagine that they were going to take the bed from the room I was in as soon as I checked out.

      When I used to attend CES in the late 90's through 2002, I was well aware of business meetings as well as parties being held in hotel rooms at most of the nearby hotels. I never received an invite, but the Kentia hall vendors would often have a sign saying, "Come see our presentation in room blah of the [Hilton, Venetian, Sands, etc...]."

      I'm thinking this is just CES management shaking down unregistered vendors that are trying to piggyback on the show without paying a share. I could be wrong though.

      --
      Mess not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
    5. Re:That is positively asinine. by wramsdel · · Score: 4, Informative

      Seconded. I've been to CES a number of times with a wireless startup, and we've always been in suites in the hotels. There's no way they don't know exactly what's going on when they see us roll up in a loaded minivan with boxes that say "Dell" all over them. We chose suites for two reasons: the obvious expense aspect, and there is no way we'd try to demo on the show floor...the RF environment is just too congested. It's also a much nicer way to engage a customer, and gives them a break from the insanity of the floor. I can't imagine that the use of suites will ever go away...CEA will just find a way to drive the cost up.

    6. Re:That is positively asinine. by wramsdel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're damn straight, and there's nothing wrong with it. When 40-50 of your customers are in one place at the same time, you'd be an absolute fool not to go there and meet with them. It's the most bang for the buck you'll get all year. How far, exactly, do you need to be from the show floor before you're not trying to "get a free ride"? If I'm at CES and a buddy of mine's at CES, and we get together and talk business somewhere on the strip, are we trying to "get a free ride" because we're not buying the CEA's beer? Where's that line drawn?

    7. Re:That is positively asinine. by jcr · · Score: 5, Informative

      Having stayed at the Venetian the week before CES two years ago, I can say without a doubt that it is usually standard practice to hold meetings in hotel rooms.

      It's the same for NAB. Last time I attended, I had at least four meetings with vendors in hotel rooms where they had demo systems set up for products they weren't ready to announce and were only showing under NDA terms.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    8. Re:That is positively asinine. by Aeros · · Score: 1

      The article said some of those people did have spots on the CES floor...but some didn't.

    9. Re:That is positively asinine. by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      That's like arguing that tech companies are getting a "free ride" by basing themselves in Silicon Valley. Or that retail stores are getting a free ride by opening shops on Main St alongside all the other stores.

      The problem in the story is that CES didn't establish and publicize a policy that "satellite events" were not permitted in hotels they were booking. Why didn't they publicize this? Because it's terrible publicity of course. But they seem happy to enforce it - and other than slashdot this will probably get very little play, so it is probably a smart strategy.

    10. Re:That is positively asinine. by Unequivocal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      These vendors are probably registered at CES as customers rather than getting a booth. They probably have staff wandering around on the floor picking up clients and taking them back to their hotel room. Kind of like high-tech hookers, I guess.

      CES doesn't like customers stealing other customers - they want those customers on the floor looking at the booths that bigger vendors paid big dollars for.

    11. Re:That is positively asinine. by mrisaacs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ok let's get it straight.

      CES allows or at least turns a blind eye to vendors who have rented space on the floor and also show products in their suites, or there might be restrictions on when the suites are used, etc.

      The hotel staff who told the vendors who did not have floor space, that here were no restrictions probably did not know the hotels had a contractual agreement with CES, specifically not to allow suites to be used by vendors who did not have floor space.

      There's a simple reason for this. CES spends a lot of money to rent facilities, guarantee occupancy and advertise the event. Some portion of the fee$ paid by the vendors who rent floor space goes to this.

      The vendors who don't rent floor space are capitalizing on the attendees, who are their because of the efforts of CES and those vendors who rented floor space. Before anyone makes the analogy - this is NOT akin to filesharing or the alledged piracy of music or video. This is more akin to pirating someones' signal and replacing their content with your own.

      The suite only vendors are not only not paying CES for their services, they are reducing the amount of face time for the vendors who are paying for those services. If they make a sale - it really is potentially at the cost of someone else who paid to show at the conference.

      The agreements with the hotels are CES' insurance that attendees only view the wares of those who have paid to be at the conference, for the duration of the conference. It costs them money (or occupancy guarantees/penalties) to get those agreements..

      --
      ...carrier dead.....
    12. Re:That is positively asinine. by negRo_slim · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I call BS on the whole post. Sounds like a Penthouse Forum letter more than anything.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    13. Re:That is positively asinine. by ncohafmuta · · Score: 1

      I'm headed out to a show in a few days in LA that I've been invited to a few...last time I was out there, I thought I was meeting up with the pres of an overseas company to see his products, and it ended up being a suite full of scantily dressed hookers and coke. Only speaking broken Japanese, I apologized to the gentleman as I figured I had the wrong room.

      wrong room??? what's the right room!? ;-)

    14. Re:That is positively asinine. by mmeister · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Um, not a free ride. If you rented a suite during CES, especially close to any of the venues, I can guarantee you paid out the ass for it.
      Free ride? No way.

      Now, CES a-holes didn't get their pound of flesh, but it isn't theirs to take.

    15. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It happens. I've seen it. I know, this is another anecdotal post, but I'm not the same AC from above.

    16. Re:That is positively asinine. by houstonbofh · · Score: 4, Funny

      I call BS on the whole post. Sounds like a Penthouse Forum letter more than anything.

      That or the broadcom suite...

    17. Re:That is positively asinine. by mmeister · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Obviously you've never attended a trade show.

      There is nothing that says that Vendors have to register as vendors.

      These guys are not coming up to random people saying "hey, you wanna see something cool.. just follow me." No, they may arrange a meeting at a later time, but usually with press folks they already have a relationship with and with potential business partners.

      CES doesn't have a lock on what you can do on the floor as a customer. You don't sign a contract saying you will only do business with vendors that have booths to get a customer pass. And CES certainly doesn't have a right to kick you out of your hotel, period.

    18. Re:That is positively asinine. by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      How far, exactly, do you need to be from the show floor before you're not trying to "get a free ride"?

      Pahrump? http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=pahrump+brothels

    19. Re:That is positively asinine. by changa · · Score: 1

      The stuff going on at the Venetian was open door rooms, you walk room to room looking at audio gear.

    20. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call BS on the whole post. Sounds like a Penthouse Forum letter more than anything.

      I call BS on your post. Sounds like a troll posting more than anything.

    21. Re:That is positively asinine. by wramsdel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Everything you've said is true. You've also made largely ethical arguments, and ethics in business is dead. Yes, the parasites in the suites are costing the big guys money and face time. The big guys are also doing everything within their power to put the little guys at a competitive disadvantage. That's how business is done. That's not a justification, it's not an excuse, it's a statement of fact. The companies exhibiting in suites are, at worst, in breach of contract with the hotel, and it's quite likely that that breach is with the tacit consent of the hotel. You cannot convince me that an entity which spends tens of millions of dollars deploying surveillance hardware to catch people cheating or counting cards doesn't know exactly what's happening in each and every one of their rooms and suites. This time, the CEA got pissed and told the hotels to play ball, and they did. Individuals go to Vegas to gamble, it's not surprising that companies would do the same.

    22. Re:That is positively asinine. by tonyreadsnews · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The hotel staff who told the vendors who did not have floor space, that here were no restrictions probably did not know the hotels had a contractual agreement with CES, specifically not to allow suites to be used by vendors who did not have floor space.

      this should have been in any terms agreed to for renting the room, and would need to be done ahead of time. What if someone was showing product in their room that had nothing to do with CES? Also CES should have described this as a condition for attending the show (likely the vendors at least had tickets to go in so they could corral people back to their room).

      This is more akin to pirating someones' signal and replacing their content with your own.

      Not really, the 'other signal' was still there, its just the 'listener' now has more choice. I would liken it more to passing out CD's to people at a concert and/or near a concert for similar (but original) music.

      In these cases, nothing the vendors did was illegal (nor CEA), the hotels had to breach their contracts (CEA contract and contract to rent the room to the vendor) and choose to breach the one that had less money at stake.

      next year the vendors should hang the Do Not Disturb sign. Not that I'd want anyone I wasn't watching in the room with prototypes and potential business secrets in their anyways.

    23. Re:That is positively asinine. by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >>The vendors who don't rent floor space are capitalizing on the attendees, who are their because of the efforts of CES and those vendors who rented floor space. Before anyone makes the analogy - this is NOT akin to filesharing or the alledged piracy of music or video. This is more akin to pirating someones' signal and replacing their content with your own.

      That's a horrible analogy, even for Slashdot.

      Everything these guys were doing complied with the law, and the pre-stated hotel policies (and longstanding tradition - NDA-only products are usually ONLY shown in hotel rooms).

      Or as Shakespeare would say, Who am I to CES, or CES to me? Fucking cry me a river that they are capitalizing on an event. Are you going to complain that restaurants in the area are having increased sales as well?

    24. Re:That is positively asinine. by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Vendors have been showing their products in hotel hospitality suites for decades. I've never been to any trade show yet where this wasn't the case.

      Yes, but those same vendors also have a space on the exhibition floor for which they have paid the aforementioned $10,000 fee to the conference promoters. If they want to have a fancy suite(s) for VIP guests and "high-roller" types to demo gear and network in a more private setting (away from the riffraff on the convention floor) in addition to the floor space; nobody minds. The problem here is that some vendors who have NOT paid for floor space were attempting to hustle people into their hotel suites instead (i.e. taking advantage of the conference promoters efforts to bring everyone into town for the show, but not paying the exhibitor fees).

      I don't know what the hell CES management is thinking if they consider this any kind of a problem.

      Its a problem because these vendors did not also pay the $10,000 exhibitor fees. They are "free-riding" off of the event promoters' efforts to organize, advertise and bring a large and interested audience into town for a couple of days without paying the exhibitor's price of admission. I can understand why the event promoters are upset in this case; especially since they probably paid these hotels extra for exclusivity deals as part of their contracts.

    25. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The people who run NAB will also attempt to get you kicked out of your hotel if you are showing stuff that would normally be on the NAB show floor, but aren't part of NAB. Even some very large vendors had a hard time showing stuff in rooms since they no longer have a booth at the meeting. (Large vendors whose names begin with "A", let's say.) Many hotels won't even rent to you during that week in the first place if they think you're trying to do this.

    26. Re:That is positively asinine. by Maniacal · · Score: 1

      I read the article and that's not how I saw it but maybe that's the case. I read it as they were thrown out for having product displays. AFAIK, most hotels would kick you out for "operating a business" out of their hotel.

      That being said, I'm sure the CEA folks threw their muscle around to force the hotel to do something they probably would have overlooked, even if it is against hotel rules.

      --
      MG
    27. Re:That is positively asinine. by jekewa · · Score: 1

      I've been to a handful of these shows, and it seldom fails that if you're in the right market in the right vendor's kiosk when the conversation turns the right way, they'll invite you to their room off the floor for a better the peek at the goods. If for no other reason than to remove you from the area of the competition. They shine on with food and drink and free t-shirts, too. If you're a looky-loo, no go, but if you're on the brink of purchasing or implementing, and you're either good with or not full of BS, someone will take you up an elevator to the private party.

      Perhaps these folks weren't ALSO displaying their wares on the floor? Someone got crabby because they were bypassing the system, just trying to take advantage of the nearby foot traffic.

      I guess I can see the comparison to someone who pulls their van up to the alley beside the bazaar instead of paying for a table within. No one in the flea market likes that.

      --
      End the FUD
    28. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then it sounds to me like the problem is between the CES and the hotel. If the hotel didn't make the restriction known to the vendors (and it is most certainly not part of any normal expectation of room rental) then it sounds to me like the hotel screwed up. I have absolutely no sympathy for CES (or for the hotel).

      "The agreements with the hotels are CES' insurance that attendees only view the wares of those who have paid to be at the conference, for the duration of the conference."

      I bet attendees think differently. Outside of the exhibition space, attendees will see what they want to see. Unless CES 2011 has a new "all visitors are locked inside the hall for the duration of the show", that's just nonsense.

    29. Re:That is positively asinine. by Maniacal · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I can't believe what I said is so controversial. Some folks are downright mad (it's my first flamebait mod). I guess I see this differently.

      If you don't have a booth at the show, how are you getting people up to your suite to look at your products? My guess is your walking around the show floor, handing out cards or fliers and inviting people up. If you're smart, you focusing on people who seem interested in your competitors products. So you're drawing people away from the vendors who paid to be in the show. Sounds like a free ride to me.

      Now, if you setup in a hotel that had nothing to do with CES (wasn't hosting any part of the show) and you sent a mass email to your 40-50 customers saying, "hey, while at CES come down to the Rio, we've got a suite. We'll liquor you up, show you some of our new products and we'll party". I think that's a good idea. Like you said, good bang for the buck.

      When I read it my immediate thought was that these people were down on the floor trolling for customers. Didn't sit right with me.

      --
      MG
    30. Re:That is positively asinine. by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      I've been approached by vendors on the floor of many trade shows - not while at their booth but while looking at another product. It's a good way to find people who might be interested in your stuff. And I've also been invited to attend off-site events while on the floor of a convention.

      I agree that a lot of vendors also take advantage of their customers and potential customers all being in the same place at the same time, to convene them at after-hours parties and events, with invitations issued ahead of time.

      CES doesn't have the moral right to kick you out of your hotel room - but it appears that they have sufficient influence to do so. I'm not saying it was right - but it appears they did it, and unless big media picks the story up, they'll probably get away with it.

    31. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Original AC here...

      It was a music industry event. Hence me heading out there later this week. You can probably figure out what music conference is going on if you are even slightly connected.

      If you don't believe this goes in in the MI, sorry. I didn't make any references to the size of the whores nipples or their come hither stares...hence no penthouse forum. Actually, to be honest, the glace that I got before I got the fuck out of there, the whores looked attractive if you could get past the fact that they all looked dead inside. And yet, I know others that have no problem picking these women up and doing whatever, justifying the lifestyle as a free market expression.

      The coke? Never been around it? I've never done it, never wanted to, but the fact that it was there meant nothing to me...the fact that there was THAT MUCH...obviously did.

    32. Re:That is positively asinine. by Maniacal · · Score: 1

      Actually it's more like arguing that a tech company were getting a "free ride" if they setup a computer parts kiosk on the sidewalk in front of Fry's Electronics. They're out of pocket to draw in customers and you're siphoning them off and the only cost you have is the Kiosk. Now, if you had a hotdog cart Fry's probably wouldn't do anything about it. But if you're selling the same thing they are, they're going to call the cops and have you booted.

      And, no, it's more like opening a shop on 5th street and standing in front of the shop on Main St. with a sign advertising your store on 5th St. They paid the extra $$ for the good location and you're over there trying to milk them for customers. Pretty lame in my eyes.

      And, as I said in my post, in the past I've seen plenty of "satellite events" but they're always with someone who ALSO has a booth at the show. They use their hospitality suite to further engage the customer (read: liquor them up) and hopefully close a sale. CES would never publicize not permitting these, even if they didn't, because their big vendors want to do it. Keeping those people happy is probably the reason they nudged the hotel into giving the others the boot.

      --
      MG
    33. Re:That is positively asinine. by grmoc · · Score: 1

      If I sign a contract with Johnny, and Johnny signs a contract with Mike to do something to me, that still doesn't make it legal to do something to me.

    34. Re:That is positively asinine. by babyrat · · Score: 1

      contract to rent the room to the vendor

      I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing the 'contract to rent the room' included the we can kick you out for any reason clause, so they were in fact 'breaching' nothing. You ever read all the terms on your hotel bill?

    35. Re:That is positively asinine. by Dravik · · Score: 1

      The problem is the hotel may have had an agreement with CES, but did not have any such agreement with the organizations renting the suites. The hotels would be within their rights if they refunded the money for unused days when they kicked out vendors. A hotel can't legally rent you a room for a week, kick you out after two days, and keep all the money if you haven't broken your agreement with the hotel. Agreements the hotel may have with third parties have no bearing on your agreement with the hotel.

      --
      The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
    36. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too fucking bad for CES then. Just because they're putting on their little show doesn't mean they get to shut down the rest of Vegas.

    37. Re:That is positively asinine. by Dravik · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A vendor who rents a suite is paying for floor space. It just happens to be floor space in the suite. Could you explore this free-riding concept a little bit more. If I put a gas station across the street from a wal-mart, does that mean I owe wal-mart money for free-riding on their traffic volume? If a vendor rents a suite in the hotel next to CES are they still free riding? How about a block away? A mile? I can understand that the event organizer is upset, and they may have an exclusivity deal with the hotel. If the hotel failed to include additional restrictions into their suite rental contracts then CES has a legitimate complaint against the hotel. The vendors who got kicked out by the hotels also have a legitimate complaint against the hotel since they complied with the standard hotel usage agreements(I'm assuming the hotel failed to modify their rental agreements) and were kicked out anyway. At a minimum the vendors deserve a refund for the unused time they paid for.

      --
      The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
    38. Re:That is positively asinine. by sosume · · Score: 1

      Time for a replacement for the CES, I'd say .. never bite the hand that feeds you.

    39. Re:That is positively asinine. by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      I suggest CES find another business model, as their roll as a middle man (as the recording industry found out) is coming to a close.

    40. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CEA is becoming more and more like the IOC: money whoring an event that used to be fun.

    41. Re:That is positively asinine. by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

      If you don't have a booth at the show, how are you getting people up to your suite to look at your products?

      Depends on the nature of your business and the marketing you've done. If you're spending tens-of-thousands going to the show then typically you've already done an extensive email / mail / phone marketing campaign reaching out to the key individuals/customers you want to contact. At that point, it doesn't matter whether you're telling them to meet you at the Milano Meeting Room or trade show booth 20456.

    42. Re:That is positively asinine. by tonyreadsnews · · Score: 1

      No, because I only plan on sleeping there for a short time. If I planned on doing something else, I definitely would. I might even want to know that before reserving space.

    43. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I prefer scantly-clad hookers and Pepsi.

    44. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only way to do it fairly, it to simply add the CES 'fee' to the room rate for the week. Going in after people booked the room and started using it, making up new 'rules' as they see fit is bait and switch.

    45. Re:That is positively asinine. by Maniacal · · Score: 1

      I never would have considered someone would spend that kind of money to be at the show without actually being "in" the show.

      After this thread and reading the others for this story I feel kind of in the minority with my point of view. I've tried to look at it the other way but it's not working. I can't justify it in my mind. To me, people are there for CES. If you don't want to contribute to CES then why should you draw benefit for it. If more and more companies start doing this then CES will cease to exist. Seems self defeating.

      In fact, your customers are there because of CES. Try turning in that expense report with "Trip to party with vendor in Vegas" on the line instead of "Trip to CES Trade-Show in Vegas" and see how far it gets.

      --
      MG
    46. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're basically say it's like filesharing... right?

    47. Re:That is positively asinine. by andrew_starks · · Score: 1

      This is the smartest comment on this thread. If I'm a billion dollar trade show, one thing that I'm going to do is tie all of my hospitality partners to a contract that forbids them from letting people set up mini trade shows in their suites that compete with my paying vendors. What probably happened was that the management that was asked about policies regarding product demonstrations was either not aware of the CES contract or didn't know the dates of the demonstration. I would be pretty pissed off at the Venitian, and I guess I would try to extract some kind of damages to cover my expenses. I doubt I'd get anywhere, the world being as it is. As far as CES being jerks or monopolistic or overbearing... I guess? I certainly see their side of it. The whole point of a trade show is to create value within the walls of the show. From where they are sitting, not paying them anything and setting up a suite in a hotel and showing product that would have otherwise been in the show is benefiting from their event without paying for it. They, of course, will hold their partners to rules that limit or eliminate this where they can. Seems like a reasonable position for them to take. When you try to get away with not paying for something, often times it blows up in your face, whether or not you think you have a right to it or not.

    48. Re:That is positively asinine. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I read it as they were thrown out for having product displays. AFAIK, most hotels would kick you out for "operating a business" out of their hotel.

      No hotel will kick you out if you are there a week and invite business associates there. If you start having mail delivered there and a separate DSL line installed, then maybe they'll complain. But to have someone invite over some potential customers? That's done thousands of times a day with no problem, and probably every single CEA vendor talked to someone off-site, and many (most?) did so at a hotel room. And the issue wasn't meeting in the hotel rooms. Registered CEA vendors weren't kicked out, just those staying in the same hotel as the CEA who weren't vendors who were doing vendor-like activities in their room.

      That being said, I'm sure the CEA folks threw their muscle around to force the hotel to do something they probably would have overlooked, even if it is against hotel rules.

      Having the hotel enforce their own rules is one thing. To have them make up new rules, in direct contradiction to the previous rules, and to apply those new rules selectively is what the problem is. From where I sit, if someone asked whether it was OK and was told "yes," then the hotel violated a verbal contract and should lose a lawsuit for a trumped up suit about lost revenue for the time they were kicked out for millions. "Can I stay there and run a business out of my room" is a question that at least one person kicked out asked and was told that it was OK. They can kick someone out for just about any reason, but to kick them out for a reason you already approved is a breach of contract. And then they could be held responsible for the damage of lost sales.

    49. Re:That is positively asinine. by Maniacal · · Score: 1

      This argument I can certainly agree with. I don't mind CES doing everything they can to "protect" their show. But for a hotel to say it's ok but to then turn around and go against that is another. I would certainly expect the hotel to refund ALL of their money unless they could show me where, in the document I signed to get the room, it said I wasn't allowed to do that. I would expect them to provide that documentation even if I wasn't the guy who asked first. IANAL and I know they can do what they want with their hotel but they must have some recourse.

      --
      MG
    50. Re:That is positively asinine. by ColdSam · · Score: 1

      You just admitted that you're going there only because of the event so yes, it is a "free ride." The answer to how far away you need to go to not be getting a "free ride" is simple - far enough so that you're not getting an advantage from their event.

      It may be a smart business move for you to take advantage of this free ride, but it's equally smart for CES to move you a little farther from their event, if they can. It's hard to blame them for using their business leverage when the hypothetical you tried to screw them first.

    51. Re:That is positively asinine. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For a concrete example, look at AMD. Every year at IDF, they book a suite and hold some kind of press event for all of the journalists who are covering Intel's show. The entire point of it is to steal some of the publicity from the show's organiser (Intel). If Intel could get AMD kicked out of their hotel, I bet that they would absolutely love to...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    52. Re:That is positively asinine. by blueskies · · Score: 1

      The suite only vendors are not only not paying CES for their services, they are reducing the amount of face time for the vendors who are paying for those services. If they make a sale - it really is potentially at the cost of someone else who paid to show at the conference.

      Isn't this true of all capitalism? Isn't that the point of competition? If i make my home really nice and home values go up in my neighborhood, i don't get to charge other people on my street for their increased value.

      Are you telling me CES is going to start going after hookers next because they aren't paying CES for their services?

    53. Re:That is positively asinine. by CodeBuster · · Score: 1
      The key observation here is that the entire event takes place on private property , which generally includes a large attached convention hall (especially in Las Vegas which regularly draws huge conventions). As such, the casino/resort corp (i.e. the owner) is perfectly within its rights to make a contract with the event organizer and you (when you rent the room) which specifies, within legally allowable limits, what one can and cannot do on the property. If the hotel makes an exclusivity deal with the convention promoter (i.e. no competing convention activities on hotel property) then the casino/resort operator can enforce that as part of your suite rental agreement (i.e. you cannot operate a competing activity out of your hotel suite without the permission of the event promoters).

      Could you explore this free-riding concept a little bit more.

      The event promoter paid for the advertising and logistics necessary to promote and operate the convention on specific dates and brought many thousands of business people, who otherwise would not have been in Las Vegas on those dates, into town with the intent to listen to vendors, investigate products, and be pitched for products or services. If you can rent your own room, troll the convention hall handing out bills or directing people to your suite without paying the promoter for space on the floor then you are "free riding" in the sense that you benefit from the large crowd of potentially interested customers, as opposed to the general public, present at a specific place and time without paying the promoter for the privilege of being a listed vendor at their convention (with floor space).

      The vendors who got kicked out by the hotels also have a legitimate complaint against the hotel since they complied with the standard hotel usage agreements(I'm assuming the hotel failed to modify their rental agreements) and were kicked out anyway.

      The casino/resorts have general clauses in their room rental agreements that say something to the effect of, "we reserve the right to eject anyone at anytime from private hotel property for any reason whatsoever." This is also how they get rid of gamblers who are breaking rules in the casino (or just winning too much); they ask you to leave and if you refuse, they read the trespassing statute before having security (or local law enforcement if necessary) escort you off hotel property. Its their private property and they can exclude whomever they want for whatever reason they want except as prohibited by law (i.e. the race, gender, disability or sexual orientation discrimination laws). Of course, when they throw you out the generally don't tell you why (and they don't have to) to avoid just those sorts of discrimination lawsuits (frivolous or not).

      At a minimum the vendors deserve a refund for the unused time they paid for.

      That is reasonable and they probably did get some sort of pro-rated refund, but they can still be banned at the discretion of the property owners; the casino/resort in this case.

    54. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No a better example is someone coming into Fry's and luring their customers away with promise of cheaper better, higher quality product across the street in a warehouse complex which fry's happens to also have a large rental agreement with.

      The warehouse owner hears that you've been bringing fry's customers over into your smaller warehouse plot in order to sell them goods, and fearing Fry's will drop their rental agreement with them, thus losing a substantion amount in rent, they decide to get rid of you, the little guy, since it won't hurt as much.

      That's a better analogy for what the hotel's did for CES.

    55. Re:That is positively asinine. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Other people have mentioned that hotels run under different laws. To prevent the problem of having some person (or class of person) excluded, hotels are required to take anyone and can't kick them out as long as they abide by the rules. There is no rule against guests. As such, it seems it is very likely against the law to kick someone out for pissing off a different customer (presuming nothing disruptive pissed them off, like loud music or such). Though I'm not up on lodging law, just repeating another view someone else presented that was backed up by links and such.

    56. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Different AC, probably different industry. This stuff does actually happen.

    57. Re:That is positively asinine. by MattskEE · · Score: 1

      Your point of view is not unreasonable, but I see it as just being business and capitalism in action.

      If organizers of any trade show or convention want to ensure that ALL vendors in the hotel purchase the pricey booths in the convention hall, then it would be perfectly reasonable for them to ask a hotel to make that their policy during the show. It would then be written into the contract that both parties sign. Then the hotel could make it a POLICY which they DISCLOSE to guests before they pay for their room.

      Because this would be a restrictive policy which would realistically inconvenience many hotel guests and the hotel staff, the hotel will be able to command a higher price from trade show customers who want such a clause enforced. And while this may also be seen as an unpopular move by small companies and some convention go-ers who like having the small companies around as well as large ones, it would at least be fair.

      Note that in this particular case, according to the article, the hotel specifically told guests who inquired ahead of time that meeting with customers and showcasing products in hotel rooms would be allowed, within normal room occupancy restrictions. This is the key point. Based solely on the DailyTech article, and IANAL, it has some of the makings of Bait and Switch, which is fraud, because the vendor mentioned was able to stay in the hotel only after paying an additional $10,000 to a third party (CEA).

    58. Re:That is positively asinine. by jcr · · Score: 1

      I know NAB is seriously pissed off at Apple, but the long and short of it is, once Avid was headed down the crapper, there wasn't much point for Apple to have a show booth. They still attend, but they're not dropping millions of dollars on it anymore.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    59. Re:That is positively asinine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it will all come down to the contracts in the end.... and ultimately CEA behaved poorly as did the Hotel.

      However, having been a trade show exhibitor for years, I have a strong opinion on the subject. Exhibitors pay large sums of money for personal exposure to players in our specific industry, to make business connections and further our business interests, as I said we pay large sums of money for this exposure. The governing/organizing body of these shows makes a sack full of loot for setting the whole situation up. It is against the terms of admission, for our industry and typical show venue anyway, to disperse promotional materials of ANY KIND on the trade show floor if you are not a paying exhibitor.....this activity is reserved for the vendors WHO PAID specifically for this access to business contacts.

      Additionally, we always reserve suite space at a nearby hotel to further interact with key players of interest and allow them more intimate exposure to our offerings, some nice food and drinks.

      To have guerrilla vendors walking the floor, that we paid for, handing out materials and siphoning business contacts away, perhaps in direct competition to a paying vendor is wrong.

      The Hotel, buy allowing non-participating vendors, to show their wares for simply the cost of a room undermines the event.

      Why should I pay 50K to exhibit in the show, when I could simply pay 10K, cruise the floor handing out invites and re-direct attendees to my room.

      The only pertinent question, to me, is why are these vendors not in the suites showing their stuff weeks before or after the CES? Because the only time this concentration of individuals with this common interest are assembled there is during the even, which CEA setup, and all the legitimate vendors PAID FOR.

  5. They were no kicked out for showcasing wares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They were kicked out for placing improperly licensed chocolates on hotel pillows.

    1. Re:They were no kicked out for showcasing wares by Aeros · · Score: 1

      damn..those are the 'worst' kind of chocolates!!

  6. Bob's Country Bunker by BlueBoxSW.com · · Score: 1

    I would love to make a "Bob's Country Bunker" reference, but it would only make sense if you go to the Philly Folk Fest.

    1. Re:Bob's Country Bunker by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Or have seen a Blues Brothers movie.

  7. It's like by MikeyinVA · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wi-fi and tables are available at the bookstore but they don't expect you to run your business, host clients, create displays on the tables (seen this done before!). CES and Vegas in general benefit from having a formal process and presenteres paying a fee and going through a process. Of course the hotel (and Vegas and CES) wouldn't want this.

    1. Re:It's like by tftp · · Score: 1

      Wi-fi and tables are available at the bookstore but they don't expect you to run your business, host clients, create displays on the tables

      A book store is not renting the premises or the table to you, but a hotel does. You don't pay for walking into a book store, but you need to pay for every day of hotel room's use.

    2. Re:It's like by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Problems like this end up being solved by time limits for sitting. In California there is also the ubiquitous "WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE" sign. It probably covers circumstances like that.

  8. does AVN have the same rules? by alen · · Score: 3, Funny

    AVN holds the porn convention at the same time in vegas. do they have the same rules about not working in your rooms? maybe the demo was a rogue AVN guest and not CES?

    1. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by geekmux · · Score: 3, Funny

      AVN holds the porn convention at the same time in vegas. do they have the same rules about not working in your rooms? maybe the demo was a rogue AVN guest and not CES?

      Perhaps, but I guarantee you the product lines would not be confused. Different hardware and firmware altogether.

    2. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by Whalou · · Score: 3, Funny

      Viagra can convert firmware into hardware.

      --
      English is not this .sig mother tongue...
    3. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Funny

      Viagra can convert firmware into hardware.

            But is there any hope for micro soft?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and more importantly software into firmware...

    5. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean software into hardware.

    6. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by mmeister · · Score: 1

      More like.. Viagra con convert software to hardware.

    7. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      No. Viagra converts software into hardware.

    8. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps, but I guarantee you the product lines would not be confused. Different hardware and firmware altogether.

      And will you change your tune when somebody reads your comment and decides now is the time to invent dildos that run linux? I'm sure she'd get a more of a kick out of sending email that way regardless of the viruses one could catch! I'd make a comment about trojans as well but hm.

    9. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Which convention would Real Doll 2 be attending?

    10. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by MageWyn · · Score: 1

      Firmware might as well be software...

    11. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Viagra can convert software into hardware/firmware.

      There, fixed that for you.

    12. Re:does AVN have the same rules? by FragHARD · · Score: 1

      quote[maybe the demo was a rogue AVN guest and not CES?]/quote

      don't you mean around 30 rouge AVN guests???

      --
      FragHARD or don't frag at all
  9. At first glance I read "Showcasing Warez in Room" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Probably scared the crap out of the DRM mafia.

  10. Tightening up... by meerling · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I guess they really want to tighten up their grasp at other companies money.

    I've always heard about these types of 'parties' from all the shows, especially CES and EEE.
    Even Microsoft and Sony (among many others) do these for some stuff.
    The smaller vendors have utterly relied on being able to do this.
    Having a small booth in a 'busy' place like that can make it really hard to do a presentation of your product, not to mention restricting access when you want to keep it limited.
    Seems a bit odd (or greedy) for them to start cracking down on it now.

    1. Re:Tightening up... by silent_artichoke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I guess they really want to tighten up their grasp at other companies money.

      The more they do that, the more star systems will slip through their fingers.

    2. Re:Tightening up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the hell is happening to peoples' ability to write paragraphs? Everwhere more and more people are writing lots of sentences as individual paragraphs, seemingly unable to group the related ones. It's maddening to read and witness!

    3. Re:Tightening up... by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      What the hell is happening to peoples' ability to write paragraphs?

      'People' is already plural, so the possessive apostrophe goes before the 's'. :-)

  11. Pretty disgusting by HEbGb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The CEA can institute whatever rules it wants on its own show property, but it has no business or right to interfere with anything (ahem) going on in local Las Vegas hotel rooms.

    Similarly, unless the hotel informed them of some restriction, and as long as they abided by all of their usual rules, they have no basis for throwing them out, at all. I hope these companies fight this. At the very least, there's remedy in small-claims action. And obviously they should dispute any credit card charges from the hotel.

    They're probably desperate from the declining numbers, and revenue, and are in financial trouble.

    1. Re:Pretty disgusting by Derekloffin · · Score: 2, Informative

      And, as usual, CEA doesn't realize this will not help them in the long run. All they do with this guy of BS is irritate the very companies they want to court, making them that much more prone to saying 'F it' and either skipping the event entirely, or using completely separate events to hock their wares.

    2. Re:Pretty disgusting by hackus · · Score: 1

      "They're probably desperate from the declining numbers, and revenue, and are in financial trouble."

      Them and half of the United States small businesses and local, state and Federal government.

      It tisn't going to get better any time soon either.

      -Hack

      PS: Unless of course your a bank or Wall Street which is currently in the middle of another Ponzi scheme with the market going up, and everything else going down the crapper.

      --
      Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
    3. Re:Pretty disgusting by Dravik · · Score: 1

      Wall Street? Ponzi scheme. Tha'ts nothing. Have you looked at Social Security? Textbook definition of a Ponzi scheme, and the largest in history.

      --
      The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
  12. Lawsuit, anyone by mtrachtenberg · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Monopolistic practices. Interference with trade. Lost and unrecoverable revenue opportunities. General fuckedupness.

    1. Re:Lawsuit, anyone by feepness · · Score: 0, Troll

      Or perhaps your post just contained a lot of general fuckedupedness.

    2. Re:Lawsuit, anyone by mtrachtenberg · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps your post just contained a lot of general fuckedupedness.

      That's always a possibility, if you're not trying to be funny. But how? Obscenity? Or is it completely incorrect to suggest that a bunch of small businesses just got screwed by CES in an illegal way?

    3. Re:Lawsuit, anyone by feepness · · Score: 1

      Well, it was more a joke than anything. I don't, however, see anything illegal happening. CES doesn't have a monopoly on anything. While I'm all for these companies taking their advertising budgets elsewhere in the face of a dumb move by a conference... but the fact remains that they can.

    4. Re:Lawsuit, anyone by mtrachtenberg · · Score: 1

      What legal right does CES or the hotel have to throw someone out of their room for legally entertaining guests? How would you feel if you rented a hotel room and got thrown out if it because the hotel owner decided they didn't like you or your guest?

  13. Sounds pretty idiotic to me by khallow · · Score: 3, Insightful

    CEA probably could have saved a lot of grief by warning these vendors ahead of time that it was going to do this sort of thing. Sure a number of the vendors would have worked around the rules, but that'll happen next year despite the crackdown. The vendors will just be a bit more clever.

    Further, this just reeks of bad communication and incompetent handling by CEA and the respective hotels. If I were involved with the decision, I'd be worried about breech of contract suits from the affected vendor firms. Just from my extremely crude reading of the article, this doesn't sound like CEA or some of the hotels did due diligence in upholding their side of the exhibition contracts.

    Finally, these sorts of antics show up when an organization is tight on money and starts ignoring long term costs and harm. One wonders if the CEA will go bankrupt in a few years.

    1. Re:Sounds pretty idiotic to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One wonders if the CEA will go bankrupt in a few years.

      IMNSHO, they now deserve to.

      So, the question now is, how do we - the consumers - facilitate this?

    2. Re:Sounds pretty idiotic to me by GooberToo · · Score: 2, Funny

      The vendors will just be a bit more clever.

      Like refusing maid service. Its not that hard to place a "Do not disturb" sign on the door.

    3. Re:Sounds pretty idiotic to me by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      CEA probably could have saved a lot of grief by warning these vendors ahead of time that it was going to do this sort of thing.

      Or, even better, don't be such control freaks. If the *hotel* doesn't care, why should CEA? It's like those homeowner association horror stories you hear about.

      If they need a more expansive view, someone should tell them in a bad economy that allowing the small businesses some slack is a good thing because that's where the job growth is going to happen.

    4. Re:Sounds pretty idiotic to me by houstonbofh · · Score: 0

      The vendors will just be a bit more clever.

      Like refusing maid service. Its not that hard to place a "Do not disturb" sign on the door.

      But they did not know that they had to hide. They had asked if it was OK, and been told yes. They were not trying to be sneaky, but I bet they will now.

    5. Re:Sounds pretty idiotic to me by GooberToo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Please place my comment back into original context - which was, "...next time..."

  14. Vegas mafia strikes again! by sageres · · Score: 1, Troll

    "In Vegas, everybody's gotta watch everybody else. Since the players are looking to beat the casino, the dealers are watching the players. The box men are watching the dealers. The floor men are watching the box men. The pit bosses are watching the floor men. The shift bosses are watching the pit bosses. The casino manager is watching the shift bosses. I'm watching the casino manager. And the eye-in-the-sky is watching us all." Casino (1995), Robert De Niro as Sam "Ace" Rothstein:

    1. Re:Vegas mafia strikes again! by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but who is watching the eye in the sky?

    2. Re:Vegas mafia strikes again! by The+FBI · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but who is watching the eye in the sky?

      Take a wild guess.

  15. In FreeMarket America... by fantomas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... no competition is allowed ;-)

    1. Re:In FreeMarket America... by aicrules · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On private property, he who owns the private property has sole discretion over what can and cannot be done on that property within the realms of legal activities. Obviously illegal activities are not allowed with or without the owner's discretion.

    2. Re:In FreeMarket America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yet another retard who doesn't understand the concept of the free market but feels no shame in his ignorance and will continue to make all kinds of assumptions.

      These are the people we normally laugh at for being fools but I guess when you have all kinds of bias instead of a working model that's what you'll get.

    3. Re:In FreeMarket America... by tsstahl · · Score: 1

      Can I give you permission to do something on my property, collect a fee, and then kick you out with no notice or recompense? Some might construe such actions as fraud.

    4. Re:In FreeMarket America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No Competition?

      *laughing*

      Way to miss the point entirely, genius. You've been suckered.

      Try this: Works As Intended.

      The show is designed for those with the money and market-power to deliver, not for those that cannot even afford the floorspace. This *is* competition. "America" had nothing to do with it. The Feds weren't called in, the police were not involved....it was, in fact, an almost perfect excersice of private property rights and the economics of size and market. When those little guys hit on something worth being shown @ CES (I.E, when they gain the money and market power to be able to afford floorspace), they can participate.

      Compatition!=a level playing field. In fact, it directly opposes a level playing field.

    5. Re:In FreeMarket America... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      One, it's a corporation. Therefore, the freedom an individual might enjoy (barring anyone who uses Microsoft products, since we are on slashdot), is replaced with the ability to act to maximize shareholder profits.

      Two, they agreed to rent a hotel room, sans any restrictions. Once they make a deal, they cannot unilaterally change their mind.

      Three, that's not true of public places (e.g. a mall)

      Four, it's not true in general. You can control access, but not behavior. Of course, you can make access conditional on behavior, but that's still access.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    6. Re:In FreeMarket America... by aicrules · · Score: 1

      If you could prove my intent was to take your money and then immediately exercise my right to kick you off my property for no particular reason other than my own whimsical desire to make money, then that would be fraud. However, basically any business has the right to eject people for any reason except where it involves illegal discrimination based on protected minorities/groups.

      And in this case, who knows who told them that it was okay to do so. Could have been any random employee who doesn't know the policy overall, or if there is special policy during the time of CES event.

      If it's actually in their signed agreement that they can do what they were doing and the hotel doesn't have another "this is why" up their sleeve, then they could have a way to pursue relief. Unlikely that such is true.

    7. Re:In FreeMarket America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On private property, he who owns the private property has sole discretion over what can and cannot be done on that property within the realms of legal activities. Obviously illegal activities are not allowed with or without the owner's discretion.

      Not true. The law trumps what the owner wants to allow/disallow.

      For example, the FCC says that regardless what your lease or HOA says, you are entitled to put up a satellite dish.

      And "business meetings" is an acceptable, legal use of a hotel room.

      The hotel is looking at a major lawsuit...

    8. Re:In FreeMarket America... by tftp · · Score: 1

      If you could prove my intent was to take your money and then immediately exercise my right to kick you off my property for no particular reason other than my own whimsical desire to make money, then that would be fraud

      There would be plenty of other examples of fraud that don't match your definition but are fraud nevertheless. For example, it is still a fraud if you don't have a monetary gain out of it but just want to hurt someone.

      However, basically any business has the right to eject people for any reason except where it involves illegal discrimination based on protected minorities/groups.

      And except where it involves a violation of a signed contract. Renting of a hotel room is certainly a contract, and if *you* violate it you will be fined or kicked out. But the hotel also can't violate this contract. If you rent a room for 3 nights you can't be kicked out after one night, unless you broke the rules first. The contract protects both participants.

      So unless those hotels explicitly forbid doing business in rented rooms and make that restriction known to the guest when the contract is considered, they violated their contract. The rental fees need to be returned, and on top of that other fines may be involved. Loss of business opportunity during CES is not cheap.

    9. Re:In FreeMarket America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Soviet Russia, free market is YOU!!

      no wait, that's not right...

    10. Re:In FreeMarket America... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Could have been any random employee who doesn't know the policy overall,

      And the great thing is, random clueless employee *is* the company. If they tell you something, then it's the same as if the CEO told you. There are no rules about who can and can't have authority, so any such agreement is valid. Yes, if you ask the janitor whether it's ok it's not the same thing, but calling the reservations line and asking about room policy is something where you'd expect the person booking rooms knows the terms to book rooms. To claim they don't is an internal problem, and wouldn't diminish the power of the verbal contract created between the hotel and the person booking the room.

      Why is it that the Libertarians who think any company can do anything they want ever, and that contracts and such control all interactions, also ignore and dismiss contracts. Libertarian life without contracts is anarchy. Are all the libertarians really just anarchists? They never want companies to be held to the contracts they make "ooh, random employee might not have known the policy, so any contract they make is invalid"

      In *most* (nearly all) places in the US, a verbal contract has the exact same force as a written one. This includes verbal amendments to written contracts, unless the written contract has specific bars against that (and so most do, even in the places where verbal contracts don't have the same weight as written ones). And even if they had another reason "up their sleeve" it wouldn't matter. You are stating that like you expect any such reason would be a fabrication. And you expect them to perjure themselves in court. And you expect the court to believe it. That's a lot of assumptions when the threshold of proof is so much lower in the civil courts.

    11. Re:In FreeMarket America... by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. Private property can, in some situations, be considered a public space, in that, while privately owned, it is open to the public, and as such, the public has in interest in its operation. The most important of such spaces, according to common law, is the inn. Under American law, the innkeeper has obligations towards the public. The innkeepers largest duty is to take in guests. By law, an innkeeper must accept all unobjectionable guests, so long as there is space, and so long as the guest is willing to pay the price the innkeeper asks. "Upon assignment to a room, a guest is entitled to its exclusive occupancy for all lawful purposes, subject to the right of the innkeeper to enter the room for proper purposes, such as to assist the police in their investigation of a crime." Objectionable means, that the innkeeper has a good faith belief they will not pay, that they are intoxicated, or that they are or will be disruptive towards other guests. As for reasons a hotel can evict: Disorderly conduct. Nonpayment. Unlawful activity. Causing a danger to others. If the reservation was obtained under false pretenses. Violating conspicuously posted hotel rules. Failure to vacate by the posted check-out time. So, the only way they could kick these people out would be if there was a law preventing private showcasing of products (doubtful!) or if there was a conspicuously posted notice explicitly forbidding it. And that second one, it might not be so strong, either. Under US federal law, as I said, you're entitled to exclusive use of the room for all lawful purposes, so it's doubtful they could have a posted rule saying that you cannot have guests. In fact, the right to entertain guests in your hotel room is the LAW, so long as your total number of guests does not exceed the capacity of the room. In TFA, they were even told as much, if you aren't breaking the law, the only limit on having people in for private business meetings, is the room capacity. And, the rooms they rented, are large business suites, rooms designed and rented for the EXPRESS purpose of conducting business meetings in! Finally, though IANAL, I believe that while state laws can adjust and clarify these rights and obligations, they cannot disclaim or eliminate rights or duties, so no Las Vegas or Nevada law can allow a hotel to evict people who are not breaking the law. But that's a fine line, and has gone either way in court findings on various particular issues.

      On the other hand, "false pretenses" is also there, so if they represented themselves as attendees of CES to get the preferred rate (or because CES reserved ALL business suites for their group rate, so only by pretending to be CES attendees could they get a business suite) then yeah, they can be kicked to the curb, and rightly so. But, TFA said that even CES attendees who also even had a booth at CES were evicted, so I don't think it could be that.

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    12. Re:In FreeMarket America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On private property, he who owns the private property has sole discretion over what can and cannot be done on that property within the realms of legal activities. Obviously illegal activities are not allowed with or without the owner's discretion.

      You forgot about "within the realm of the signed contract". If I rent a room, the private owner cannot void the contract by saying a maid saw me picking my nose and scratching my balls at the same time.

      Unless that is an act explicitly excluded in my contract.

  16. Whats the Warez connection? by vlm · · Score: 2, Funny

    I had to read this at least three times to figure out they meant "wares" not "warez".

    I was thinking, video game modchips and rom images, or torrented movies playing in the hospitality suite?

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  17. I visted vendor room at VMWorld by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I visted at least four different vendors in their suits at the Venetian and The Palazzo for food, drink, and discussion while at VMWorld in 2008 (one was a large VMWare competitor). Some of party setups were very elaborate with a rotating guest count of over 50 people. One of the vendors even brought his own alcohol, although he had to sneak it in his luggage in multiple trips.

    On a side note, I stayed at the Venetian, it is an awesome hotel with very large rooms. It would have been a decent stay with the exception of the "subtle" flower fragrance they inject in to the ventilation system, it triggered my allergies and brought on repeated use of my inhaler. I can kind of understand the psychological influence it might have on people gambling on the floor but why did they have to use it in the guest rooms as well? When I asked about it at the front desk, they acted as if I was the first person ever to complain about that.

     

  18. Almost certainly the hotel really had restrictions by PatMcGee · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've seen this happen with Siggraph. The contract that Siggraph had with the hotels said that no vendor suites would be allowed for display of products or meetings with actual or prospective customers without explicit written permission from Siggraph management. All vendor suites had to be booked through Siggraph.

    In, I think 1994, several vendors had such suites and publicized them at the exhibition. Siggraph management charged the hotel the standard suite fee for each of those vendor suites. Collected it too. I don't know if the hotels managed to get it back from the vendors or not.

  19. And it will continue.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    with smaller companies will find anyway to save revenue if possible..

    For example, the cost of the mandated "union" to plug in the 300 watts of trade show display booth lights into an electrical outlet is $150. An an "always on" Internet at the shows are typically $500+ when if you can get the same connectivity in your room for $10.

    We run our demo at the show(s) over the internet by tethering our mobile phone internet connection- instead of paying the overinflated price for broadband at conventions. By attending as little as two tradeshows a year more than justifies the annual costs of the data plans from any major mobile phone network.

  20. Announcing competitive event for 2011 by ls671 · · Score: 4, Funny

    We are proud to announce that we will be holding a similar event in Lost Springs, WY and that there will be absolutely no restriction on what participants may do. Also, the fees we are going to charge will be ridiculously low compared to what it costs in Vegas.

    Stay tuned for updates.

    You can look here for directions :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Springs,_Wyoming

    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Lost+Springs&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.252269,72.158203&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Lost+Springs,+Converse,+Wyoming&ll=42.863886,-105.314941&spn=0.93208,2.254944&z=9

    --
    Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    1. Re:Announcing competitive event for 2011 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is the entertainment going to be Van Driessen singing kum ba ya around a campfire?

    2. Re:Announcing competitive event for 2011 by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You'll have hundreds of hipsters show up just for the kitsch value. When thousands show up the 2nd year, the hipsters will stop coming and claim your convention has sold out and become too mainstream. "It used to be cool, but now every common Windows user and his brother are there," said a man identifying himself only as 'Slade.' "This year I'll be showing off my tattoos, nose-rings, and Apple laptop somewhere else--somewhere where it's still ironic to have a trade show."

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    3. Re:Announcing competitive event for 2011 by tftp · · Score: 1

      We are proud to announce that we will be holding a similar event in Lost Springs, WY

      Your barn looks a tad small on the outside to host a CES size event, but if you have a dog town or two nearby that's all I need to know :-)

    4. Re:Announcing competitive event for 2011 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      yeah.... but who wants to go to Wyoming? At least when CES has slow years your still in vegas.

  21. There are definately 2 sides to this by Stregano · · Score: 1

    One side is basically CEA not getting their dues. Setting up shop in a suite is essentially similar to setting up a small booth for the price of a suite and food.

    How fair is it to the other companies that had to pay the dues that there are companies displaying products without paying the 10,000 fee?

    Me, personally, I am an indie game developer. I am sure you have all heard of me. What? You have not heard of me? That is probably because I do not have the money to pay to get myself publicity through channels such as E3 or other means like that. I can see where the publicity is good for the people that do not have the money.

    One thing I did not see mentioned: Did these smaller companies make previous arrangements with CEA before booking the suites to show their products? If they DID make previous arrangements with CEA to display their items at CES and then just did not pay the fees, and instead just held their own display in a suite, than that is wrong.

    They also do not state what kind of suites these guys were staying in. It could have been the cheap 150 a night rooms, or it could have been a penthouse. That piece of information also makes a difference. Let me explain: a penthouse is super expensive. I am sure if you shopped around, you could finda penthouse for 1000 a night. Let's see, one week is 7 days, which is 7000 if you do good shopping. If you can afford that, then save a little more and you will be good to display.

    Like I said, it truly depends on a couple factors: were they displaying this stuff in nice suites that could help prove that they could have afforded the 10,000 if they had gotten cheaper rooms? Did they make previous arrangements with CEA and then display items in their rooms?

    There is just too much information left out of this and it is clearly one sided with the lack of information.

    One of the sources asked if there were any restrictions to being in the room, but if I were to call one of those places right now and ask what restrictions I had for a show, the hotel clerk may not be able to realize that I am actually a business.

    Do not get me wrong, I am not one sided here. I come from the side of the person that would be paying for the $150 room and not being able to afford the 10,000 fee. With how many small companies they said had to leave (I think it was around 30), that means that there is an incredibly small chance that all of those companies were staying in Presidential Suites or something like that.

    Also, somebody else in the comments pointed out that hotel room showings were pretty standard and normal for these shows. That is where it does flip the script a little bit.

    I am saying that this sucks for both sides. The smaller companies have to pack up their stuff when they have been accustomed to being able to do the hotel room showings and not told ahead of time that they can't do them.
    On the same note: I am sure it is not cheap to be able to take over a portion of Vegas to throw together a massive show like CES. Where does that money come from? I bet alot of that money comes from vendor fees. If 30 vendors did not pay the fee, that is $300,000 that CEA could use to continue the show.

    --
    The world is how you make it
    1. Re:There are definately 2 sides to this by kylemonger · · Score: 1

      How fair is it to the other companies that had to pay the dues that there are companies displaying products without paying the 10,000 fee?

      Well, you would assume that if you're on the CES floor as opposed to a hotel suite, you'd get a lot more people walking by your display, neh? That's part of what the floor display fee buys you. How is it fair to pay the fee and not get that foot traffic, which is what these people were apparently being asked to do?

  22. Always tip the cleaning staff! by castironpigeon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm guessing they got more for turning the guests in than they would have for cleaning the rooms for a couple of days.

    --
    mmmm...forbidden donut
    1. Re:Always tip the cleaning staff! by Sfing_ter · · Score: 1

      indeed, had you PROPERLY dropped some dollars on the cleaners & bellpersons you would have not had the problems. (it would easily have been worth 1k give or take).

      --
      A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
  23. I'm not surprised at all. by MarchTheMonth · · Score: 1

    I am not surprised at all that the hotels kicked em to the curb. Makes sense, you have a bunch of techies that do not gamble like other conventioneers do, CES makes money (and continues to beable to have the CES because of the income), and no offense to the small players, but if you can't pay/are unwilling to pay to get on the floor, then perhaps you don't belong at CES.

    From the Hotel's perspective, the removal makes complete sense. CES is bringing in money to them, paying them to have X amount of floor space, which X floor space would be larger if these small players paid to be on the floor, and are instead paying for just a room.

    Which sounds more likely in Vegas: CES is really upset not to have the money and asks the small player(s) to be removed, or the Hotel is upset enough to ask them to leave because they're not making the extra money. I'm going with the latter. Vegas hotels will say one thing and then change their mind, or the front of the hotel person was incorrect on the "restrictions" (possibly even using tricky wording to think they have the freedom to have their displays in their room). My money is totally on hotel management getting wind of it and taking it upon themselves to "solve" the situation.

    1. Re:I'm not surprised at all. by Phoobarnvaz · · Score: 1

      Vegas hotels will say one thing and then change their mind, or the front of the hotel person was incorrect on the "restrictions" (possibly even using tricky wording to think they have the freedom to have their displays in their room). My money is totally on hotel management getting wind of it and taking it upon themselves to "solve" the situation.

      Whenever you have a business like this who makes their money by ANY means possible short of holding a pistol to your head & making sure the laws are written to make sure they can...you see this behavior.

      Used to work in gaming & this is the exact reason why I got out of this line of business. Being a money whore to make an international company more & more money...while my wage/benefits package was sucked dry & being told it was good for the company...made me sick. For instance...the last episode of "Better Off Ted" where the employee died & the company spun it around to make the employees work harder is what it means to work in gaming. Your life is unimportant...only the company matters. The only thing missing was me not getting full release...but the company/local management sure did.

      --
      Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia. - Charles M. Schulz
    2. Re:I'm not surprised at all. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      From the Hotel's perspective, the removal makes complete sense. CES is bringing in money to them, paying them to have X amount of floor space, which X floor space would be larger if these small players paid to be on the floor, and are instead paying for just a room.

      These hotel/casinos make money from *everything*. They don't lose money on shows, drinks, gambling, rooms, or anything else. They may have even had a couple vacancies (even if just canceled last minute reservations) and then the profit from the room (and those there have to eat and such, all at massive markups) is better than it being empty. They didn't do it for that day's profit, they illegally made someone homeless for next year's profit. The removal makes sense only in the long-term view, and from laws governing lodging, quite probably broke the law to do so. It will be an issue for the courts (if anyone presses this) to determine if it was the right profit choice.

  24. I first misread title... by Nomaxxx · · Score: 1

    as "Vendors Kicked Out of Hotels For Showcasing Whores in Room".

  25. You've hit the nail on the head by stomv · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Using the premises for an unlawful purpose or act

    My bet is that Las Vegas zoning code specifically restricts commercial activity from hotel rooms themselves. I've never looked at the Las Vegas zoning code, but I have looked at the codes in my area of the country -- and hotels are only allowed to have certain activities in certain areas of the hotel.

    Commercial activity in the rooms themselves is verboten in every code I've seen (about a dozen), although again, I've never looked at the Las Vegas zoning code (or any other Las Vegas laws that might or might not apply, including laws on lodging houses of various kinds, health codes, etc).

    1. Re:You've hit the nail on the head by mmeister · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As I understand it, these were Suites. Suites as in designed to have guests, business guests.

      I know lots and LOTS of business folks that rent suites to conduct business in all the time. I know other trade shows do this all the time as well, it is part of the trade show mechanism. This is typical short term thinking. If the meetings in suites prove successful, those same companies will hopefully grow big enough to need a booth next year.

      Sorry, this looks like nothing more than a CES shakedown. I would definitely question the legality of CES being able to kick you out of a hotel suite for having business meetings. I could maybe understand it if you had a standard room, but if you got a suite, then IMHO, the hotel is completely in the wrong and caved to CES threatening them.

      Both parties should be taken to court.

    2. Re:You've hit the nail on the head by BobMcD · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Except they asked and the hotel answered. This would make the hotel a party to the crime, and puts them on dubious ground in making an 'unlawfulness' claim.

      Also, if no money changes hands, there could be a grey area of what 'commercial activity' actually means. If all conduct of business is forbidden, then many of those rooms would be empty and they likely wouldn't have desks in them.

    3. Re:You've hit the nail on the head by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet they let the rooms / suites out for 'business' all the time... the oldest business on record... Hookers doing their job...

    4. Re:You've hit the nail on the head by jabbathewocket · · Score: 1

      CORRECTION.. they said they asked.. and recieved permission.. no way we can be sure they asked or recieved it, or that they actually asked for what they where intending to do! "hey is it ok if we have a few people up to our suite for some closed door demos" "sure" having a hawker on show floor inviting hundreds if not thousands back to your room for what is essentially a public booth, definately could be construed as disorderly conduct, in the same way that frat boyz throwing a party in a hotel room can be booted out for making too much noise/disturbing other guests.

    5. Re:You've hit the nail on the head by eclectro · · Score: 1

      "I would definitely question the legality of CES being able to kick you out of a hotel suite for having business meetings."

      There's a recession on. I can't help but think there is more than one attorney looking for a meal ticket, courtesy of CES.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    6. Re:You've hit the nail on the head by BlackBloq · · Score: 1

      If you have a meeting ok, then but if you have a convention with public access where traffic from the trade show comes into the hotel room to see the wares and leave...(not ten people but hundreds!) Those people are abusing the system and need to get a banquet room or a small hall for the purpose, like any trade show thingy at a hotel. If they was next to my room and I was trying to sleep I would beat the teeth outta my neighbors head with their stupid new tablet PC.

    7. Re:You've hit the nail on the head by mmeister · · Score: 1

      Now you're creating imaginary scenarios that didn't happen. No next door neighbor complained about noise.

      Also, there was not a complaint of hundreds of people streaming through the suite, so that too is imaginary.

      Let's stick to what did happen rather than just making stuff up.

  26. Renting from the CES Block of Rooms? by mistapotta · · Score: 1

    Not mentioned in the article was did they pay for one of the (usually discounted) block of rooms CES had set aside. Usually large conventions set aside a block of rooms at a discount for people participating in the convention. Their guarantee subsidizes the cost of these rooms, and give them a bit more control over what goes on there. Doesn't make their actions less ass-hat, but does let me understand why the CES would have that much sway over the occupants of the rooms, as they might have paid for (up to half) part of the rooms' cost.

  27. A warning / refund seems logical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shouldn't they simply have warned them and required them to stop or at least refunded there money? Is it really fair for someone to take your money decide what your doing doesn't suite them and kick you out without so much as a dime in return? Was there any information up front about product showcasing being against there policies? *sigh* only in the united states.

  28. The idea that... by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...CES 'kicked people out of hotel suites' is patently delusional. The hotels kicked them out. Random people cannot kick people out of hotel rooms.

    Whether or not the hotels can do that is a separate point. You cannot just randomly kick people out of their rooms for no reason.

    While a lot of you are talking about 'changing agreements' after the fact, I'm not entirely certain hotels could actually dictate the purposes for which you could use a hotel room even with a contract in advance.

    Everyone assuming this is a simple matter of contract law needs to look up 'innkeeper statutes'...people who operate hotels cannot just randomly make whatever rules and regulations they want about residents, even in advance.

    If I walk up to a hotdog vender, and want to buy a hotdog and have the money, and he doesn't like my hat, he doesn't have to sell me a hotdog. Normal businesses can refuse service to anyone except for specific reasons.

    If I want up to a hotel, however, and have the money, they do have to give me a room if they have one, unless they think I'm going to use it for some unlawful purposes. Hotels are not like other businesses, they're not even like apartments...they are considered public accommodations, and the reasons you can refuse service are only the reasons specifically outlined in law.(1)

    There are a lot of other regulations about what 'innkeepers' can, and cannot, do. For example, in most places, they can't actually disallow non-renters from visiting a renter who authorizes them. Your parties have to obey fire code, and cannot be disruptive, but that's it.

    I know a lot of people assume 'Companies can do anything as long as they say it advance', but 'innkeeping' is actually heavily regulated.

    Casinos in Vegas have, for exactly this reason, a clearly defined area that is 'the hotel' (Where innkeeping laws hold sway), vs. 'the casino' (Where gambling laws hold), vs. the rentable floor areas (Which are just like renting a warehouse or something) vs. the rest of the building (Which falls more under the 'mall' part of the law, being open to the public.)

    Oh, and some people may be unaware...The Venetian and The Palazzo are the same building. They are two hotels next to each other, with one casino in the middle of them, and one (huge multi-story) exhibit area behind the casino, along with a bunch of other stuff back there like the Blue Man Group theater. (I stayed at the Venetian once.)

    1) Someone's about to say 'Hey, didn't hotels used bar unmarried couples from staying, and to have 'house detectives who attempted to make sure that people weren't using hotels for affairs?'. Yes, and having sex outside of marriage used to be illegal, making that being 'using a hotel room for unlawful purposes', until the Supreme Court struck those laws down, and hotels had to stop.

    --
    If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    1. Re:The idea that... by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      That was my first thought.

      My second thought was, if they can't afford $10,000 for CES, they certainly can't afford the $10,000 a lawyer would require to convince a court that whatever contract CES has with the Venetian/Palazzo is illegal due to violations of innkeeping laws.

      And we continue, business as usual... The little guys will have trouble even getting a refund.

    2. Re:The idea that... by tftp · · Score: 1

      if they can't afford $10,000 for CES, they certainly can't afford the $10,000 a lawyer would require

      a) Maybe they have the money; but floor space usually costs far more than $10K. I would guess a CES booth would be closer to $100K. It can be that the vendor just doesn't think this investment would pay for itself. Maybe they have only one product; maybe their market is very narrow; maybe their product can't be shown without an NDA in place; and so on.

      b) The lawsuit has a chance to pay not just for the lawyer but for a few years of R&D. If a business has a good chance of winning $100K in court it will find $10K for a lawyer.

      Besides, any company who can make a consumer product has some money. Maybe not in range of millions, but you certainly need to have tens of thousands of dollars to design and manufacture your product, even if it is only a prototype. Just the airline tickets from China to Las Vegas and back will cost you about that much.

    3. Re:The idea that... by Dravik · · Score: 2, Funny

      My second thought was, if they can't afford $10,000 for CES, they certainly can't afford the $10,000 a lawyer would require to convince a court that whatever contract CES has with the Venetian/Palazzo is illegal due to violations of innkeeping laws.

      Is this where Las Vegas Country lawyer appears in a cloud of smoke?

      --
      The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
    4. Re:The idea that... by mbstone · · Score: 1

      -1 YANAL.

      In Vegas a hotel can evict you for any reason, or none at all.

      And if you were stupid enough to sue, you'd find out about the Vegas court system and who owns it.

    5. Re:The idea that... by mbstone · · Score: 1

      More YANAL noise.

      Consumer protection laws, to the extent they exist in Vegas, are for consumers. Run a business from your hotel room and you are a commercial enterprise; and the law will assume you are a grown-up who is capable of being held to a contract (see my other post).

      The people who got evicted had no right to bring business invitees onto the property and to expose the hotel to liability risk, for example for slip and fall accidents.

      Also, if you had ever exhibited at a trade show in Vegas you'd know that every light bulb has to be screwed in by a member of the Teamsters Union. You REALLY don't want to fuck with the Vegas Teamsters Union. And neither does the hotel.

    6. Re:The idea that... by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Ah, slashdot, where I can specifically say 'You know, everyone here is assume that hotels can make up any rule they want, but actually are covered under something called 'innkeeping laws' which severely restrict some of the things they can do.'

      ...and have someone show up and say 'No, you're not a lawyer, you don't know what you're talking about, hotels can do whatever they want, and I'm not going to bother to google 'innkeeping common law'.

      I will repeat: English (and thus American) common law requires innkeepers to a) accept any tenant who apply except as provided under the law, and b) not evict them except as provided under the law.

      This is requirement to operating an 'inn', aka, any place that rents rooms or suites on a nightly basis. (I don't know the exact legal distinction, but it doesn't apply to apartments.)

      Unless Nevada has some sort of law overriding that, it applies in Nevada. Hotels, unlike most other businesses in the US, do not have the general right to refuse service, unless Nevada has stepped in and said they do.(1)

      Consumer protection laws, to the extent they exist in Vegas, are for consumers. Run a business from your hotel room and you are a commercial enterprise; and the law will assume you are a grown-up who is capable of being held to a contract (see my other post).

      Just making up crap doesn't make it true. The law does not 'assume' you are a business and thus can't rent a room simply because you bring people there.

      I can't even imagine where you got that from. Legally, rented hotel rooms have tenants, aka people who are allowed to sleep in them. They are human beings. Human beings rent hotel rooms. Every rented hotel room has a person or two or three who are allowed to 'occupy' it. (Technically, that means 'sleep in it'.)

      Businesses might pay for the rooms, but that's rather irrelevant.

      And there's absolutely no allowance under hospitality law to kick people out who are running a business from their room, unless they are disturbing people.

      The people who got evicted had no right to bring business invitees onto the property and to expose the hotel to liability risk, for example for slip and fall accidents.

      As I mentioned, under innkeeping laws in most states, and under common law in general, people actually do have the specific right to bring whatever guests they want into their hotel room.

      And hotels, strangely enough, have a competing duty to keep out non-tenants who are going to commit criminal acts or even bother other residents. Yes, they are required by law to stop non-tenants from wandering around and knocking on doors and bothering people. (Oddly enough, they aren't required to stop this behavior by tenants, although they can.)

      Hotels usually solve this paradoxical duty by requiring all non-tenants to be vouched for, and kicking them out if they aren't specifically 'with' someone else, and visiting that person's room.

      And, in fact, the liability issues are also covered under innkeeper laws, although a lot of states have passed specific laws to override common law there. Which you'd know if you'd stop running around saying that other people 'aren't lawyers' and, you know, did the tiniest bit of reading on the issue.

      1) Incidentally, an interesting fact: Hotels can never refuse service to an unaccompanied minor, at all, even if they know the minor can't pay. They must give them a room, period. (Of course, nowadays, they call the police and having family services show up.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  29. New Show: CNC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    CNC , which stands for CNC's Not CES is a fantastic new high-tech consumer gadgetry trade exhibition that'll be going on next year in Las Vegas, coinciding with the closed CES show. Bring your stuff!

  30. CES owns Vegas? by santiagodraco · · Score: 1

    Congratulations on CES purchasing controlling rights to the Venetian and Palazzo hotels such that they can control what you can or cannot do in your rented suite! What's next, you won't be able to fly into Vegas unless you have a CES badge?

  31. showcasing wares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "showcasing wares" - is that what the kids are calling it these days?

  32. Let them kick you out by rosasaul · · Score: 1

    Check the sign in forms for the Hotel, unless otherwise stated or a refund is issued, let them kick you out then join together in a class action law suit. Now tell me that wouldn't be hilarious.

  33. Contracts anyone? by Wardish · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Since I am not a lawyer, take all this with a block of salt.

    It's all about the room contract. I assume the room contracts were between the small companies and the hotel. If so a review of the contract is in order.

    It's possible that CEA had a contract with the hotel, but unless the hotel rewrote the contracts the small companies signed it's still a moot point.

    It's also possible that CEA bought blocks of rooms (not reserved, purchased) and sold them directly to the small companies. If so the contracts between CEA and the small companies are probably in force. A good reading is still in order as it's hard to tell if there's anything in there about it.

    If the contracts don't go your way then you might consider getting into he said / he said with hotel staff. And get out your wallet.

    --
    Ward

    . Silence! Be thankful thy species is unpalatable! .
    1. Re:Contracts anyone? by adnoid · · Score: 5, Informative

      I just got back from CES last night, and this happened to a vendor I had an appointment with.

      We were on the 30th floor of the Venetian. The CEA (Consumer Electronics Association, the entity that puts on CES) arranges to take complete floors for things that make noise - they had the 29th, the 30th and the 32nd along with parts of the 34th and 35th and probably others. We make noise, we're selling high end home/corporate theater sound systems and the demos exceed 100 dB at certain points, so combined with the traffic there's no way any regular guest would be happy there. Each room gets a sign to tell other attendees who is there, the doors are generally left wide open and music (and bodies) permeate the hallways all day.

      As a point of reference the room cost, paid to the CEA directly, is about $20K for about a week (including setup before the show and teardown afterward), and there are lots of other costs as well. The cost is a serious barrier to entry for smaller firms.

      On Friday we were visited by a vendor offering a product that we use and need. I wanted to learn more, and they told me they were just upstairs on the 31st floor, gave me a card with their suite number, and we arranged to get together Saturday morning after a meeting I already had scheduled. I sent them a text message Saturday morning and didn't hear back until their salesman was back in our suite with an explanation.

      It turns out that they had managed to book a room on that floor just above other CES exhibitors, had 16 cases of equipment brought up by the hotel staff, and had been bringing people in since the show opened. As they were in the hotel along with the other exhibitors I thought nothing of it and assumed they were just another exhibitor - but it turns our they had not gone through the CEA. Hotel security - and the local Sheriff according to them - took their stuff and them from the room & put them on the curb at 10:00 PM Friday night.

      Now in this case they did confess to me that they pulled out the agreement that they signed when they checked in, and that agreement said they would not be making loud noises or conducting business - and they felt that since their products are still in the development stage they didn't count. They were told they had been discovered because they were doing music demonstrations in the room during show hours and people could hear it through the (closed) doors. Since they were not on a floor the CEA had taken 100% of for sound demos it was disturbing other guests and that's how they were discovered.

      They ended up in another hotel, where I met them Sunday. I'll be curious to see if they were offered the chance to pay $10K to stay, which is about what a room the size of the one they had would have cost if they booked it properly although they would not have been in the program or on the signs.

      --
      No sig
    2. Re:Contracts anyone? by tftp · · Score: 2, Informative

      I assume the room contracts were between the small companies and the hotel.

      I also thought so, being not a L. However someone above already corrected both of us. The hotel industry is regulated by the innkeeper statute. I remember seeing it posted in hotel rooms. This means that state laws control the hotel industry, and individual hotels have little say in what is and what isn't allowed. As the comment above points out, a guest is free to do pretty much anything that is legal.

      It's possible that CEA had a contract with the hotel

      As you say, it's irrelevant.

      unless the hotel rewrote the contracts the small companies signed

      Per the innkeeper statute, the hotel has no such right - see NRS 651.080 in the link above.

    3. Re:Contracts anyone? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Per the innkeeper statute, the hotel has no such right - see NRS 651.080 in the link above.

      You might want to read NRS 651.080 yourself before making such broad (and false) claims. The paragraph you cite addresses disabilities, discrimination, service animals etc... etc... It, in no way prevents the hotel from deciding what a customer may or may not do in his room.

    4. Re:Contracts anyone? by tftp · · Score: 1

      You might want to read NRS 651.080 yourself before making such broad (and false) claims.

      The NRS 651.080 prohibits "Deprivation of, interference with and punishment for exercising rights and privileges" that are "secured by NRS 651.070 or 651.075".

      While NRS 651.075 indeed deals with disabilities and such, the NRS 651.070 is very broad and applies to "all persons". Probably only a lawyer with knowledge of Nevada laws is qualified to comment further.

    5. Re:Contracts anyone? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Like I already told you, it's important to actually read the paragraph's you cite.
       
      NRS 651.070 is very specific, and just like NRS 651.080 it deals with discrimination and stands utterly and completely silent on whether or not an inkeeper may limit how a guest uses the facilities so long as he does not discriminate.

  34. Pretty Standard Practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Actually, not allowing vendors to basically set up shop in their hotel rooms is pretty standard practice. The exclusion is likely in the hotel's fine print and/or part of city ordinances. In fact, the practice of bypassing the show floor on the cheap is so common in the trade show industry, there's a name for it. It's called suitcasing and most conventions have agreements with the hotels their attendees stay in that stipulate they will ask suitcasing vendors to leave. In fact, it's common to not even allow the companies that ARE exhibiting to set up additional space in their hotel rooms. They can have hospitality suites, and bring clients up for a drink and the like. But setting up your room as an exhibition suite is typically frowned upon and even the hotels, despite their desire for revenue, are reluctant to help suitcasers because it's more wear and tear on a typical room (which is why they charge for their event space). It also puts them at odds with the show organizer because they are basically contributing to the demise of that show. If every exhibitor can take a suite (at reduced cost to them but also reduced revenue to the show organizer), eventually the show goes away. This has happened before and, just as in BSG, it shall happen again.

    Think of it this way. Your company (most likely a non-profit, not some big conglom) just spent millions of dollars on advertising, registration systems, staff, etc to entice companies from all over the world to come to your trade show. And many companies, some of them startups where the show is a make or break moment for them, paid thousands of dollars to take a booth, maybe sponsor an event or put up some ads touting their new product. Along comes a company that decides it's going to take advantage of all the dollars the trade show organizer and its exhibitors just spent to get everyone in one place at one time. Instead of participating on the show floor (and thereby adding revenue to the organization that got everyone there to begin with), they tell people to meet them in their hotel room.

    Watch how quickly a show like CES (or Comicon or AVN) would go away if this sort of thing were left unchecked. You can argue the logic, but you can't say it's not standard or unusual.

  35. Maybe CES will go the way of COMDEX by t0qer · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I sort of remember at the end of the 90's comdex was grabbing for straws and overstepping its power much the way CES is now. From Wikipedia;

    Following COMDEX Fall 1999 (in Las Vegas), organizers made major changes to their criteria for admission of media, rejecting nearly all but those who were on editorial assignment from a handful of "acknowledged" trade papers. Though offered regular "public" attendance, this left hundreds of regular, long-standing press attendees from magazines and newspapers around the world with bad feelings toward the show. As press credentials were necessary to gain the level of access necessary to make the expensive trip worthwhile, most refused to go and many told vendors that they would disregard product announcements made at or in relation to COMDEX.

    History repeating?

  36. Mod Parent 5, Informative by mpapet · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This has been common business practice for a really long time at most trade shows I went to in Vegas in the 90's.

    The trade show producer doesn't offer a way for smaller companies to get into most shows. Even if they did, a good idea would be knocked off in months in most cases.

    Smaller vendors don't have the budget for a booth and meet their customers anyway they can. It's hard to blame them.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  37. Duke Nukem Forever Showtime nearby at CES !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, this mean that we'll not see it for another 10 yrs ?

  38. And I hope they remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The small companies become the large....

  39. Greed Gone Wild by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    CES may have temporary authority over the public floor space where booths are set up, but seriously who is CES to tell anyone what they can or cannot do in their private hotel room? Not only is it an invasion of privacy, it is also a disgusting arrogant display of greed.

    1. Re:Greed Gone Wild by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      Actually, I'd go a step further. "Tortious interference" - where one party induces another to break a contract with a third party.

  40. Same with other big shows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a NAB exhibitor for more than a decade I can assure you that the same holds true there. You can show stuff in a hotel suite, even if you're not on the show floor, but you still have to pay NAB or they'll shut you down. The CEA wasn't saying that they couldn't display product in the hotel suite, but that they had to pay for the privilege. And $10000 plus the cost of the hotel suite is _cheap_ compared to what it costs to be on the show floor once you factor in the floor space cost, cost of utilities, having to use the expensive show labor, etc.

  41. May take a while to filter through by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

    While IANAL, it seems to me that the small vendors who were kicked out of the hotels have a claim against the hotels, not against CES. After all, it was hotel management who had them removed.

    So they can sue the hotels, who will then think twice next time about kicking out paying guests. At that point, CES can either
    -pay off the hotels so they will explicitly not allow the use of the suites as private showrooms
    -or do nothing, at which point the "parallel tech expo" can happen again.

    I guess this may take two or three years to make its way through the courts, but if a few of the evicted vendors sue, I expect it to happen.

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
  42. Come on - it's Vegas. by Xacid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is anyone REALLY surprised? This is the place that embraces the exploitation of others. If you don't want to get shaken down then don't go to Vegas. I sure as hell don't.

  43. Vegas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Vegas is a shithole

  44. Right to *expected* profits does not exist by mangu · · Score: 1

    if you're paying a premium for showing your product at that show, you don't want 2 bit operations setting up in the hotel rooms above you

    If you are paying a premium for a stand in the show when you could just pay a suite in the hotel to get the same results, then you are stupid and deserve to go bankrupt.

    I have gone to more conventions than I remember, in each of them there are always people who walk around handling their business cards to everyone. It has always been accepted as the norm for smaller companies.

    Something that's terribly wrong about the way business is done in America these days is that so many corporations believe they have an absolute right to expected profits. "Hey, according to my business plan I should get X% profits, if I don't get that it's because someone is STEALING from me!".

    That's just plain rape, what part of "No, I'm not interested in your product" don't they understand?

  45. the shit hit the fan then. by unity100 · · Score: 1

    ces, enjoy your bad publicity. also you will need to promote your next round with your own money, for we, the people on the internet wont be linking your greedfuck show around.

  46. Refunded for time _not_ spent in room by lq_x_pl · · Score: 1

    From how the TFA reads, the rooms were reserved, and paid-for, in advance by the attendees. Upon their removal, it does not sound as though there was any refund for the remainder of their stay. If there was no cite-able misconduct from the attendees, the hotels are setting themselves up for some annoying legal activity. I say 'annoying' because I am sure a Vegas hotel can pony up much nicer attorneys than a small tech start-up.

    --
    An internal system operation returned the error "The operation completed successfully.".
  47. Try tipping by BurzumNazgul · · Score: 2, Funny

    Try tipping the cleaning staff and maybe they'll keep their mouths shut.

    --
    I can say [REDACTED] anytime I want!
  48. Because it isn't that unusual by zogger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's just as common as not, at least from my experience, as full time trade show worker for fifteen years before I semi retired back to farming. I have helped set up displays and product and arranged tables of literature and swag in any number of hotel rooms before, with the main action down in the exhibit halls or in the larger conference rooms, and I have always known it to go on and really..vendors meeting with clients in hotel rooms? Oh hey, look, I have the widget we are selling right here in my case... This is as common as anything, all over the planet, like as long as there have been hotels. A lot of times people make some contacts then they go back to the more private rooms to work out deals, etc, and they might still be looking at the products then. It just widely varies, and unless the show management and the hotels actually denied this practice in advance, and they can prove it, those folks got at least semi shafted. (guessing based on lack of more detail in TFA, it is all hearsay. Even if it was just coattail riding and they paid ces nothing, they still paid the hotel, and the hotel should have that restriction in some contract and be upfront about it in advance.)

  49. They agreed to the terms at check-in by mbstone · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I have stayed at the Venetian/Palazzo many times. When you check in, there is a four page agreement that appears on a little LCD screen that you have to sign. It specifically says you agree not to display merchandise or conduct business in your suite.

    So this entire thread is in the category of Whining.

    1. Re:They agreed to the terms at check-in by mcguyver · · Score: 1

      >So this entire thread is in the category of Whining. Agreed. Hotels offer meeting rooms for rent for the purpose of conducting business. Because so many people were evicted I'm guessing there were too many people wandering the hallways, stirring up complaints from non-CES guests.

  50. At a bare minimum, Chargeback by Fencepost · · Score: 2, Funny

    If nothing else, the companies that booked directly with the hotels and were not getting CES/CEA special rates should be able to initiate chargebacks (because odds are high it was all paid for on someone's credit card). They contracted for a service, that service was aggressively not delivered.

    The drawback to this is the possibility of not being able to book into the same hotel in the future, at least not under the same name. Similarly, if the hotels share information (any legal issues with that?) possibly being effectively blacklisted from that whole area of Vegas.

    If you want to get lawyers involved, there may be other claims as others have pointed out, but that probably gets more risky and potentially expensive.

    --
    fencepost
    just a little off
  51. This could have been avoided by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This is why I always put up those little "Do not disturb" Signs on my room
    Seriously, could have prevented the whole deal.

  52. seems like a standard breach of contract lawsuit by Uzik2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Should be easily dealt with in court.

    --
    -- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
  53. Event Planner perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am an event manager with 7+ years experience doing business in Vegas during CES. Every hotel venue that I contacted when planning for CES 2010 stipulated that unless my clients, or one of their partner exhibitors, had space on the show floor they would be unable to rent us a hotel suite due to their contractual obligation with CEA. CEA manages the hotel blocks for CES, and in order to be a "partner hotel" (on the maps, shuttles, or advertised on the CES lodging link) the hotels must agree to not permit any "renegade" events- no meetings, no product displays. CEA claims it is to 'preserve the atmosphere of the show floor' or something similar.

    The better hotels- those with suite spaces that are appropriate for meetings and showcases- have further given teeth to their policies by not allowing any rearranging of furniture. Sure, you can pay upwards of 3k for a suite, but you can't move the bed to display your hardware... in years past this was possible if you tipped the housekeeping staff well. Not so any more, management is writing it into contracts that furnishings are not to be moved.

    Due to economic times, we wound up booking a banquet room in a restaurant, cutting 1/5 of our budget from last year. As CEA has less financial grip on restaurants, my guess is that this will become the only option as long as CES continues to exist.

    An event planner- a professional dedicated to thorough reading of contracts and getting it all in writing- would have been a small price to pay for companies who brought their wares to Vegas and were kicked out. Just sayin'.

  54. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't the $7.35 an hour they make to rifle through my belongings sufficient?

  55. From a convention organizer's perspective.... by RubberDogBone · · Score: 0

    I can see how this would happen. Until last year, I was a very very high up at a relatively large-ish convention. About 15,000 attendees. We took up a convention center, a main hotel and about a dozen secondary hotels, plus filled many tertiary hotels which we didn't "control" in any way.

    Anyhow, the deal with the main hotel was that the convention got control of all the suites. Period. I used to have one for my personal use which was a nice perk. We used the rest for other VIPs. We also got control of all the regular rooms. Our room block was the whole freaking hotel. We had total access to the reservation list for each room.

    Regular people who wanted suites were completely shut out. Likewise, outside vendors were also shut out of using one of the suites. We didn't have a lot of demand for that, but we did have vendors trying to sell out of their rooms. After all a hotel room was much cheaper than signing up as one of our official exhibitors and in theory would be free of our content restrictions.

    The problem was that they -and for that matter official exhibitors too- were not allowed to sell anything from the hotel rooms. You can entertain. You can display stuff on a very limited basis, but no selling. The hotel forbade that on rules that had to do with pandering but also applied to merchandise sales. We had people who broke that rule and the hotel did kick them out. They didn't ask us first. They just kicked them out right away.

    We as the client had total control, but it was still their hotel and their rules. IF we had gone to the hotel manager and said "That guy in 1404 is a problem. Make him go away." I am sure it would have happened. We never really had to.

    It's also worth noting that hotel managers and front desk staff swap shifts from day to day. It is entirely possible to check in and bring in a big even on (say) a Thursday and by Sunday when you are wrapping up, the people at the front desk have NO clue who you are and no understanding that you just booked their hotel solid for a week and wrote them a fat check.

    It's possible the companies in this case talked to manager A, who OKed it. But weekend manager B came in and shut the thing down.

    What SHOULD have happened is that the exhibitor companies should have gone through the hotel sales office and gotten a contract and BEO and all that fun stuff. At that point, there's a paper trail. Doesn't mean the hotel will not cheat you. They could. But booking a regular suite without that and risking your business's entire CES marketing venture on it... wow. Risky. It sounds like it bit some folks this year. CES has made some examples for next year's booking.

    --
    Sig for hire.
  56. vegas is a corrupt city, everyone knows this by hardwarefreak · · Score: 1

    And this is why Intel, AMD, and other large players get away with the exact behavior that got these little guys kicked out of their hotel rooms. I've read on various hardware sites over the years of Intel and AMD specifically taking key clients to hotel rooms for private demonstrations of beta hardware platforms. The only reason CEA (and thus the hotels) lets this slide is because they (Intel and AMD) have massive booths on the floor as well. So, if you have a booth, you can also do whatever the fuck product demos you want to in as many hotel rooms as you want, as long as you have paid for floor space at the show. As always, follow the money.