Slashdot Mirror
Using Classical Music As a Form of Social Control
cyberfringe writes "Classical music is being used increasingly in Great Britain as a tool for social control and a deterrent to bad behavior. One school district subjects badly behaving children to hours of Mozart in special detention. Unsurprisingly, some of these youth now find classical music unbearable. Recorded classical music is blared through speakers at bus stops, outside stores, train stations and elsewhere to drive away loitering youth. Apparently it works. Detentions are down, graffiti is reduced, and naughty youth flee because they find classical music repugnant."
You are aware that A Clockwork Orange was fiction, aren't you? It was a movie and not a documentary.
John
from A Clockwork Orange:
Alex: No. No! NO! Stop it! Stop it, please! I beg you! This is sin! This is sin! This is sin! It's a sin, it's a sin, it's a sin!
Dr. Brodsky: Sin? What's all this about sin?
Alex: That! Using Ludwig van like that! He did no harm to anyone. Beethoven just wrote music!
Dr. Branom: Are you referring to the background score?
Alex: Yes.
Dr. Branom: You've heard Beethoven before?
Alex: Yes!
Dr. Brodsky: So, you're keen on music?
Alex: YES!
Dr. Brodsky: Can't be helped. Here's the punishment element perhaps.
Groups of retired people, hanging around busstops.
Pestering innocent by-passers...
But it's attracting the Calculus Gang and the Bach Gang. They wrote 30,000 digits of pi all over the bus stop last week. Cost the city 20 grand to remove it all.
Table-ized A.I.
I don't agree with this at all! How many of these kids who may have grown up to enjoy classical music are turned off by it forever? How many children will avoid their school music programs now, which have positive effects on everything from social development to grades? This makes me so angry.
Don't worry. If this method is continued then, by natural selection, more and more young people will stop hating classical music and may even start liking it. The cool guys will be those who can finish the graffiti or whatever before running away.
graffiti was written in special glow in the dark compounds all over london tubes in klingon, ancient greek, hieroglyphics and linear-b soon after.
Fighting over religion is like seeing whose imaginary friend is best.
A new renaissance will be born!
One might ask what the artists would think of this usage?
Fortunately, we have a pretty similar situation with more current music being used a torture device against Guantanamo detainess, and the rock musicians who protested against that usage:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,672177,00.html
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Though he did it in reverse, musicalising weapon...THE weapon, if there ever was one.
One that hath name thou can not otter
Someday soon, we'll be blasting death metal in nursing homes...
Children perform the bad behaviors because of file sharing and disrespect of copyright. Playing music in the public for free only gets things worse.
Will someone please think of the children?
Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
"Youths" don't stay young forever. Before very long they'll be adults, with legitimate reasons to be at stores and train stations and bus stops, but they still won't like the music. Any place that continues to play it will be driving away a whole lot of customers.
Most adults I know can't stand classical music either, so I doubt this will have a long term effect on listening habits; who knows, being exposed to it might actually get more kids interested in it. And as someone in their late 30's who can still hear frequencies up to 20kHz I'd much rather this than those buzz generators, as long as the sound quality isn't too bad and they don't play too much Satie (I don't want to fall asleep and miss my bus).
Blank until
Where I live there is a notorious corner for crack cocain, prostitution, bloody fights, and anything you can imagine.
Despite constant city owned surveillance equipment the activity continues.
The local Diner installed speakers and pipes out jazz, classical, etc. I find it to be kind of nice mood music, for an elevator.
It has cut down on the drug dealers, kids hanging out, street performers, and the homeless who are normally sitting on the sidewalk asking for change. Apparently the softly played music is enough of an annoyance that they go away.
Miles Davis - 1
Bach - 1
Panoptic sort - 0
Weren't many "atrocities" committed in World War II by avid listeners of classical music, and social movements formed that threw out classical arts? In 30 years, will they be blasting turn-of-the-millennium music?
I wonder what they'll think of Video Games Live. Will "repugnant" classical music + awesome video game tunes make their heads explode?
Whoops, didn't mean to post that as an anonymous coward...
As if that was YOU! You're just trying to take credit for my insightful comment. :)
Why not blast gansta rap at the poor, hapless souls during detention, with the lyrics changed to reflect what da Head "T" will do to them if they continue to question the value of his bling. Then, out of protest, we will get Mozart blasted out of tinny little mobile phones on the bus-ride home.
Please don't make me remember that joke. I remembered two words of it once, and spent several weeks in hospital.
Why do Brits keep reading dystopian fiction to get ideas? Why aren't we bombing them for it?
Anyone under the age of 18 here has two earphones firmly attached to their ears, blasting loud enough for you to hear it, standing a good ten feet away from the teen. It just has to block out any noise under 130dB.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Pyotr Ilych Tchaikovsky, Op. 49. I'd like to hear them play that on the 5th of November at the Houses of Parliament...
Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
Hamburg central station started playing classical music about 10 years ago. The reason was to drive off junkies; there's a saying thay certain drugs in combination with classical music lead to a bad trip.
There's only one solution. Bring a boom-box to the bus stops, and start blasting Dr. Dre like it's 1992.
Take that, old farts!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
The operators of a shopping centre near my home have started doing this in an area where teenagers tend to hang around outside. The thing is the spot the kids are using is ideal for the purpose. Its out of the way and a bit dirty. Nobody else goes there and its not really a place people walk through. So I don't really see a point beyond a vague "we don't like them" sentiment.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
The caliber of musician you can get to go out to a subway at 2 a.m. and play for hooligans isn't great... Now, if they could get Yo-Yo Ma...
Classical music is quite enjoyable. You can point to plenty of musical/acoustic reasons why this is the case, as in the songs feature things that people find pleasing to hear. It is not the sort of thing that you require intense training to appreciate because it is all intellectual or something, and the actual sound is awful, it is simply nice to listen to.
The primary reason that youth seems not to like it is a cool factor thing, not because the music itself is in some way offensive. When you grow up, you hopefully realize that is pretty stupid, and can enjoy it.
When did our kids becomes our enemies? It seems the UK do about everything in their power to alienate their youth. I really don't know about the UK, but is there really such a big problem with "unruly youths" that you have to bombard them with "deterrents" that seem to come from the privy closet of Marquis de Sade?
What sadist comes up with those things? And why do I have the gut feeling that the only reason this is targeted at kids is just that they can't vote and thus can't kick the bastard off his comfy chair?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I read the story expecting the opposite: expected it to say it was turning bad kids around by bringing the burning candlelight of classical music into their dark lives. Disappointed. I love Classical Music.
Actually, a large part of the classical music is religious. Which could be considered a form of social control
Yes Mozart, we recognize that it's possible to play some sections much louder than other sections. Tricking me into cranking up the volume with quiet parts just so that you can hurt my ears with other parts is childish.
Actually, I doubt it was really that awful centuries ago. The orchestra would have been burned at the stake or worse. Abusive dynamic range is probably a modern misinterpretation.
Compare this to what they do in Venezuela... teaching classical music to poor kids from the ghettos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Sistema
If being put in a room by myself with hours of Mozart was a punishment, my teacher's pet self would quite likely have started causing problems.
I wonder if, to counter that, they would have the same consequence be a punishment to one kid and a reward to another.
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
Tooting Bec is my local underground station in South London and they have been playing classical music in the foyer / ticket hall for several years.
The sound quality is good. The volume level is reasonable.
I asked one of the staff whether he enjoyed the music and he said 'some of it' & he also said that it kept young people from loitering.
Next time I will try and find out more on London Underground (a part of Transport for London) policies on noise and social exclusion.
Personally I enjoy the few seconds of classical music I hear as I stroll down to the escalators.
Nico M, London, GB.
I've been living in a flat at a park near a train station (Bielefeld, Germany, if anyone cares) for over a year. All kinds of shady people hung out there day in and day out, drinking tons of alcohol, taking drugs, on sunny days it must've been 150 people and still around 10-20 regulars when it rained. Worst thing, when it rained they used to hang directly before my house because it had a small porch, with the result of having one or two of those dunkards stumble into my house each time I opened the front door because they leaned against it. Well, annoying, but I didn't pay too much and the proximity to everything in inner city was excellent (it basically was at the midst of inner city), so I didn't care.
One day the town officials decided that it would be a *great* idea to shun away the bums with classic music, so they played Beethoven's Für Elise in an infinite loop. Worst. Idea. Ever. The drunks didn't care at all, nothing in their numbers changed, they even seemed to like it. On a lot of occasions one could hear them loudly bawling the piano refrain melody of the song, but even more of the time you would just see them standing there, eyes all empty and being heavily drugged. They just did not care. I, on the other hand, got pretty annoyed after a few weeks. Even today I can't stand the Für Elise melody, pretty bad, considering it's one of his most popular works. I assume the only people annoyed by that were the sober people who had to pass there every day to go to work, shop, et cetera.
In my home town, about 10+ years ago, they tried the same tactic to get rid of the teenagers that were eternally hanging out in the town square. Trouble was, the teenagers in question were mostly goth/vampire types and they actually liked the classical music. It still makes me laugh...
Knowledge != Intelligence
and I've never been subjected to it in detention. Maybe its the Mozart. They should try playing Bach and see if they get the same result.
Yeah I understand that reasonable people can like Mozart. I just don't find it very appealing myself, except for the first fifteen minutes or so of his requiem, the part he wrote.
As in title
Absolutely correct. I'm nearly 60 but this also means that I can remember the 60s (vaguely, if you know all those jokes) when we were 'allowed' (with guitars, sometimes) into public space.
The current UK trend is to deny youth any use of public space (we've just locked a churchyard because of the occasional bit of trouble), remove benches and exert social control on all gathering youth. Where are these guys and gals supposed to go? Oh, I know, to McDonalds or some place where they spend money, that's OK.
We badly need to get back to a mixture of tolerance, being less fearful and, on the other side making kids aware of how to use and co-exist in public space (we managed, with on/off brushes with the police) with the 'olds'. All this repression is idiotic, ineffective and counterproductive (because it alienates rather than teaches).
On y va, qui mal y pense!
Classical music when live is even more dynamic than it is on the highest end speaker system. That's because you have 100 simultaneous devices generating sound and it is quite exhilarating whereas 100 instruments coming out of 2 speakers is garbled. The problem is that classical music e.g., 1812 Overture presents some extreme engineering challenges to sound systems in that it produces extreme clipping/distortion in just about any speaker system especially when the cannon go off.
Feeding the kids "elevator music" is like shining sunlight on vampires, except it isn't so much that they're offended by the music or sounds but rather the association with old people. When they become "old people" themselves, they get over it. I hated watching ice skating and dancing as a boy and loved the A-team. By the time I got to my late teens, I couldn't stand the A-team (or shows like it) and I began to love artistic things and plays with more plot. The point is that people change dramatically as they mature.
Many people like music they can dance (or nod their head) to, and the waltz isn't exactly in.
Enjoying math isn't a requirement for enjoying classical or any other music, because our brains are wired to do the math automatically. Anyone who isn't tone deaf unconsciously does mathematical analysis of sound wave frequency, recognizing various relationships between melody and harmony or lack thereof.
Most youth are constantly listening to blaring music from head phones anyways, to the extent that I doubt that they could hear any music outside playing at a reasonable sound lvl.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
What about linking the orginal source instead?
I heard one youth on a London bus recently, encouraging his friend to play out loud some trip-hop piece with violins and a drumbeat. "They can't tell you to turn it off, because it's Classic, innit?"
But I don't think this is much to worry about. How many of us have instantly hated the music of our fathers when teenagers, only to discover its charms later in life?
would you rather have graffiti, or screeching, loud, bad quality classical music. As an old geezer, I vote 2-
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
I knew it - those headaches are being caused by all the damn Mozart on my iPod.
I'll get rid of it right away (not to mention the Chopin, Beethoven, Debussy and Schubert...)
No one seems to have considered the opposite- it's quite common to encounter shops with incredibly loud and tasteless music, clearly chosen by the bored staff. It seems to be generally clothing and shoe shops but my local supermarket has this too. I guess that there must be a whole generation over 30 who will never learn to appreciate 50 cent and Lady Gaga- I know that I try to reduce my own exposure to such 'unscheduled entertainments' as much as possible. The article is hysterical and highly misleading. I cannot speak for the school supposedly using Mozart as a 'punishment' but I do live and travel in London. It is quite common here for classical music to be played at tube ('subway') station entrance halls. The choice of music is generally 19th century waltzes and military marches. The sound volume makes it noticeable but not unbearable- you can hold a conversation over it. It's not at every station but it isn't rare. It does seem to cut down on the beggars and general hecklers that you would otherwise encounter.
Are you all forgetting that we've been hearing classical music as kids continuously? In cartoons, commercials, at fairs, in movies, etc. It's everywhere. It's been a form of social control for decades, but someone just now decided to put a speaker near a busstop and suddenly it's Big Brother screaming in your ear?
Oh yes, and you're all way too indignant :D
The city of Heerlen in the Netherlands has been doing this with great success for about 3 years now.
These Brit hooligans should be thankful. At least they're not being subjected to Metallica. Oh the humanity!
http://www.object404.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnPvbfogeSI#t=1m17s
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
It moves the problem, it doesn't solve it.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
They've bene using this in the UK for 7 or 8 years at least now. I used to live near a railway station that played classical music in the evenings to deter the drug dealers etc that were hanging around or the kids that trashed it most weeks.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
Trust New Labour to turn Art into a means of oppression.
groups of retirees
loitering around bus stops
Vivaldi's bullies
"Britva" means "razor".
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
If they showed a video of Renee Fleming (or Anna Netrebko)singing Mozart opera, the yobs would have to be forcibly moved on by the police. She (Renee)is the most beautiful opera diva in the world. Go look in YouTube if you don't believe me. Mozart a punishment? - hardly. If these yobs are repelled by Mozart then I fear for the next generation of Brits. I live in Vienna Austria now - not 5 mins. walk away from where Wolferl Mozart wrote The Marriage of Figaro. Get a life you uneducated british generation.
And, with the purported positive influence such music has, it may even educate one or two, or stop a crime from being committed a bit further down the road. I can't see anything but good things to come from this.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
From TFA: "The dangerous message being sent to young people is clear: 1) you are scum; 2) classical music is not a wonder of the human world, it's a repellent against mildly anti-social behavior."
If (2) you find classical music repellent, then (1) you _are_ scum.
I've heard the "we're listening/doing X because it's really nice/right/good, they're listening/doing Y just for some juvenile cool factor" rationalizations before, and it seems to me one of the silliest things ever.
For a start, I'm way beyond the age groups these guys are trying to drive off, but I not only am not fond of classcial music, but value a bit of peace and quiet too. Any place blaring that crap and disturbing the peace, would lose my business pretty fast, if I have the choice. Mom is even older (unsurprisingly) and is a die-hard heavy-metal fangirl. Much to dad's despair, I might add.
The idea that a little old lady would listen to that just because of some "cool factor" is hillarious. Cool factor among whom? It's not like she hands around highschools or anything.
And that goes double for such crap as "When you grow up, you hopefully realize that is pretty stupid, and can enjoy it." Really? Exactly at what age will she count as grown up, then?
Plus, may I point out that most of that music which is "classical" now, was once the avantgarde thing that shocked the elders of the day? Are you aware that Mozart, who now is used to deterr the youth from being there, once was pretty much the equivalent of punk and wrote such shock pieces as "Lick Me In The Arse" and "Lick Me In The Arse Really Nice And Clean"? Now that ought to have gotten a few proper old ladies ranting about the decadence of youth and their music these days.
Are you aware that complaints about "today's youth" and pretty much a verbatim rehash of all the "cool" stereotypes about them, can be found as early as Socrates or Hesiod in the 8'th century BC?
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless
beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of
elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of
restraint." -- Hesiod
Supposedly there is even a similar complaint dating from early Sumer on clay tablets.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
The problem is that the type of teenagers we're talking about aren't guitar playing hippie creative types. These kids hang around drinking and taking drugs late in to the night... oh wait.
I genuinely think it causes them pain(*). I'd be greatly interested in any study which looked into this, if there was one.
(* Like physical exercise to an underused muscle.)
...tell Tchaikovsky the news. Send more Chuck Berry.
Perhaps the issue here is that most normal people despise "urban" culture, and the thoroughly unoriginal kids who ape black American criminals in their tastes of dress and music. It doesn't help that affinity for "urban" culture, is a cultural shibboleth -- given that the underclasses gravitate towards junk culture (and junk food), it's easy to discriminate against them by pushing urban culture out of public spaces.
I've seen all sorts of devices designed to move these kind of people on. Pink lights in subways. Classical music. The notorious "mosquito" (high-pitched sound generators that only teenagers can hear). Barry Manilow.
FWIW, I'm broadly in favour of just playing lots of Barry Manilow rather than classical music... same advantages, none of the drawbacks.
They just play classical music, properly over fairly decent speakers.
Oh and what are you for assuming?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
You can talk about classical music to kids until you are blue in the face, but "when the cannon goes off" tends to be the seller :P
Oh, proper musical experts might scoff at it, but it sells the stuff to the crowd, and who knows, they might sit through the rest because of it. It also makes death metal seem tame. Biting the head of a chicken vs artillery.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
This may be the most idiotic thing I've read about on slashdot(and I read it every day). The article seems to recognize that students and teachers are divided by a generational gap, and that this divide is paralleled by a differentiation in musical preference, which is also a generational gap. It seems dumbfounding to me that rather than causing these two demographics to integrate as a solution, they've caused them to become more alien to one another. I suppose that problem will go away when all the "old people" die off. If young people hate school and just want to get drunk at parties, and old people want to listen to Mozart, looks like they've ruined their chance of getting drunk and partying to Mozart together, which would be my solution.
A lot of people here argue that somehow, people will be people, young and old, and if you're going to ruin it for them now, you'll have ruined it for them forever. A lot of this commentary is made from the preconception that the youths targeted here are of the sort that will eventually land on their feet, live in the adult world, and be responsible citizens. I would like to point out (much in contrast with my own ideas on how society ought to function) that this is Britain we're talking about. I know this is difficult to imagine for someone not from the Perfid Albion itself, but there you have it. So no, these youngsters aren't innocent, just a bit under-educated little angels otherwise full of promise - these are wilfully malevolent, purposely stupid little monsters, only good for the dole and the pub. They will not have a job that pays taxes in their lives and they will probably die from something crime-, smoke- or alcohol-related. Sure, someone let them down along the way: their parents, the government, their infrastructure, whatever, but by the time that these boys start hanging out on street-corners, it's already way to late to do anything about it. They're a lost cause, and they know it, and the people who play classical music in order to get rid of them, know it. So stop arguing like they're being treated too harshly - if you want them treated with a pussy-glove, it should have been done years, years ago. Considering the alternatives, playing classical music to them *is* treating them softly.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
and the next generation will find that Classical music is stimulating because there isn't the riff-raff at those locations...
Reminds me of this video of a cop chasing off some kids just trying to be kids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h2KD5FTkkw
Removing youth from pro-social environments like this only promotes hatred of "the man" and forces them into hiding. Once in hiding, they gain anti-social attitudes resulting in activities far worse than loitering in public places (where they did no real harm in the first place).
General social mores in the United States may give you 'fascist right-wing wackos', but they also give you kids who aren't feral.
Hardly. Vast swathes of the south side of Chicago, Eastern LA, Salt Lake City, Baltimore, Washington D.C., Miami, New York, Philadelphia, etc. etc. have "ferel youth" running rampent. The middle class doesn't acknowledge this as they are safely tucked away in their gated communities, but anyone who has lived downtown knows this, even without seeing newscasts of this or that drive-by shooting.
And that doesn't even begin to touch the spate of school and university killings in the middle and upper class campuses that have blighted the US, usually in the heart of these so-called "moral" communities you talk about (and the so-called "gun rights" they support).
I do prefer the government in the UK over that of the US (the country is, by and large, more governable, and better governed, than the US) ... but the country here is by no means perfect, and out-of-control youth are a big problem. Too many of them watching the wire and trying to mimic American kids they think are cool, perhaps. What is telling is that they have found an effective, non-violent solution to the problem (playing classical music), and folks are comparing it to the Marquis de Sade for crying out loud -- probably some of the same folks who would favour calling in the police to crack heads if it were happening on their side of the pond, or in their neighbourhood. And then go to church on Sunday and expound on America's "moral superiority" while decrying any kind of sane healthcare system and lamenting the current administration's reversal on the use of torture against "foreign combatants."
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Many here may not remember, but years ago Muzak was played on elevators. Since then people associated Muzak with having to wait to get to your floor...
Public Space?! Public Space?!? The young ones doan't know nought aboot the 'ardships of life these days. In my day, in my day, we; we 'ad to make do with the radio and telly and videyo games. We stayed indoors we did, playin' Super Mario and Sonic the we 'edgehog. Proper pastimes those! Taught us 'ow t'entertain ourselves they did.
'angin'g about in Public Space?! What kind've a pastime d'you call that?! Now'days with d'Internet and mobile phones, there's plenty 'nuff t'do indoars for the day without clatterin' about outside loitrin' on street coarners. Ger'roff of it ye layabouts!! Get a game handle!
May the Maths Be with you!
May be it was more or less innocent in the 60s (except that Manson bloke) and that may be was one of the reasons it was allowed and now it is not allowed because it grew to much sinister things.
The curbing of any freedoms start with the most obvious cases supported by everybody (forbidding "fire!" in the theatre free speech, e.g.), then goes to less popular cases ("pedophilia"), then it could be a ban on making photos of police (UK), then it could become a ban on foul language against government officials and it could end up with a system of bans on almost any speech (like in Northern Korea).
But same is true for the movement in opposite direction as well: first freedoms that are allowed are the most obvious ones, then less obvious and then you can end up with ridiculous "freedoms" that end up harming the society.
Sustained society (with healthy reproduction of it's core defining tenets from generation to generation) implements some sort of balance between allowing and curbing of freedoms that was achieved during decades of trial and error.
The understanding of what constitutes freedoms and what not constantly changes in Western society. It is obvious that every current snapshot of currently allowed freedoms is not some kind of scientific truth, but a result of social agreement, social contract.
In the Western model there is no right and wrong except what is defined by some kind of core (majority, powers to be, media, charismatic figures, celebrities, some kind of elite, etc. - very vague and hard to define group really) of society.
So getting back to your observation: in 60s it was that way, now it is this way, tomorrow it will be a different way - but what is clear that it hardly affects the principles of Western society.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Skateboards leave marks when they slide. Very hard to clean off.
No, the youths are turned off crappy classical muzak played through shitty speakers. I hate it to. I always know when I'm in the far eastern suburbs of Melbourne when they play some horribly piped noise through horn speakers designed to mangle train announcements and not for high fidelity.
When shops play similar, I make it my aim to get the hell away from such places. I assume they didn't want to sell me anything.
I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green
Kids have been doing this to adults ever since the invention of the transistor radio...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's awful. Music is supposed to be art, not a weapon. Where can I get a sound dampener?
The researchers also confirmed the existing data that classical music improve mental function, rendering the kids who could tolerate far better at committing mischief. The old tack on the teacher's seat has been replaced by pay-for-play extortion and grade inflation schemes where students deliberately throw the curve.
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
I live in Hamburg, Germany and we have had this feature on some Subway stations for some years now. It definately works, also against bums and junkies, but not against the pocket-thieves.
Something in the US bill of rights about "Right to Assemble" got lost when applied to minors here - the town I grew up in systematically eliminated any place where more than 3 or 4 "children" were seen having fun after 8pm. Some pretty damn brutal things happened to some of the pensioners in the following years, all isolated incidents, but I still question whether or not that elderly couple would have been killed and had their car and cash stolen and used for a trip to Disney World if the kids didn't a) hate the old people as a class and b) have something remotely entertaining to do in their own town besides sit home and plot how to get back at the geezers that put them "in their place" at every opportunity.
Hazards of living in a retirement community (my county had the highest per-capita death rate in the nation during those years, primary cause of mortality: old age).
Gunpowder, treason and plot...
Best Slashdot Co
Politicians these days have no ideas on how to solve the enormous problems society has. They can only think of solutions that treat the symptoms and not the cause. The cause for civil unrest is, of course, the economic situation. It is bad, and it will only be worse in the future...and then no music will save us from the urban "terrorism".
Hardly "mind-numbing".
Although media reports of a "Mozart Effect" making you smarter were way overblown, there's still sufficient research showing that listening to Mozart can increase your scores on the the Stanford-Binet spatial subtest that would indicate it's not "mind-numbing".
As far as your claims of it being "trash", I admit that while Mozart isn't exactly at the quality-level of Deerhunter or The Residents, occasionally listening to Cosi Fan Tutti or Don Giovanni can be quite pleasurable.
You are welcome on my lawn.
News like this just wants me want to batter someone with a violin.
I saw Ms Fleming sing at the Lyric last year and although I was too far up in the balcony to appropriately appreciate her not inconsiderable décolletage, I can testify that her singing gave me goosebumps.
To put it in terms that could be understood here, I would definitely hit that, in a musical way.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Cuz if they did, it would have been graphiti.
Infuriate left and right
childhood is spent absorbing every bond with your parents (to learn)
the teenage years is spent dissolving every bond with your parents and your society (to become mobile)
young adulthood is spent growing your own roots in society (somewhere new)
old adulthood is spent raising your children (as a fixture of society)
its pretty standard psychological development
such that our kids (teenagers) have always been our enemies, since before we were even human: its simply a matter of developmental psychology that teenagers spend their years reflecting on and rejecting every bond they have with society, in order to become socially and geographically mobile, so to eventually set down their own roots somewhere new
its the same with chimpanzees
this is the only way a social creature can grow its society
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
If I remember correctly, it was Hamburg were at the train station speakers were playing classical music. The tourist guide told us it's to scare away drug addicts, as they cannot stand high-pitched sounds like those in classical music.
What they haven't touched on is the psychological effects of classical music on people (kids and adults alike).
Psycholgical studies have been done that have shown that classical music can reduce aggression and anti-social behavior by measurable amounts. They even have a term for the ability for some classical music's ability to improve people's intelligence test results if listened to just before they are given the test: the Mozart effect.
While I'm sure that fewer kids hang around due to the classical music being played, you can't understate the importantance of the likelyhood that some kids were things less often because they had a lesser desire to thanks to the classical music.
Nice trollin', bro ;-)
The McDonalds on 16th in Denver, CO used this technique. They play classical outside their street entrance. I guessed they had been having problems with loiterers, and well, the classical music seemed to've worked. It was clear when I was there.
--PM
I'm sorry, I just have to pop by and point out how hilarious I find it when people go that far out of their way to be different and stand out. I know there are divides between generations. I know I am just 24 and still already despise everything the "kids these days" listen to (techno/trance/dance/whateverthehellitscalled/hip-hop, it's just machine beats and a woman moaning, or some black dude rapping about bling and the bitches he's fucked).
Some things just aren't music. Pulse Demon.. man.. I don't even know what that is. Even Scooter sounds good compared to that. Even Norwegian Lene Alexandra's "My boobs are OK!" seems like great artistry! I might be missing out on a great joke here but rest assured that somewhere, someone is smoking weed/drinking, going on about how fucking fantastic Merzbow is and how anyone who doesn't "get it" just aren't smart enough, open enough, they're conformists, whatever imaginary bs lets said looser kids feel superior for a while.
Sort of like whenever someone makes some completely retarded piece of "modern art", like a red circle on an otherwise huge, blank canvas, and goes around with their little possy of "art-knowers" looking down at everyone who dares point out that a red circle on a piece of canvas does not, in any damn way, constitute art. =P
</rant>
You know, I do appreciate the work of Mr Cummings, but I really don't understand how yelling "Sheena is a punk, a punk rocker" into a microphone twenty or thirty times counts as high art on the level of Mozart. Of course, to be fair, I don't really know why Mozart counts as high art either. Is it just because they're both so darn catchy? Cause then Justin Timberlake should count with his clever Motherlovin' song, regardless of Rivers Cuomo's opinion of his work.
When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
Psh, I'd hit it like a cymbal.
When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
Why thank you. :)
We need parents be more responsible about raising their kids so they don't get into fistfights every time they gather. The problem got so bad at a local mall that they now won't let kids loiter outside the building, they have to wait until their ride comes (apparently if they are loitering around outside they get in more fights).
Funny, when I think about controlling people with music, I think of a different movie. This wasn't about aversion, though, just straight up mind control! And beer. And hockey. And a dog named Hosehead.
The enemies of Democracy are
I can tell you that I don't go into places that blast classical music because it bugs the shit out of me. When I am subjected to most classical music I get more and more frustrated until I leave. In my case they would miss out on revenue, not graffiti if I won't go to their store.
besides don't the kids these days carry their iPod everywhere? They could easily replace whatever crap is being piped in with whatever they want on their earbuds.
Anyone who can listen to Mozart and not love it is an idiot. Mozart is far and away the most talented and awesome composer there is. If these young kids end up hating classical music, then they should just hang a drool bucket under that kid's chin and send them off to the work farm to count beans. Listening to Mozart makes you smarter.
Perhaps the target audience dislike classical music for the same reason I dislike rap - it is emblematic of a culture hostile to my own.
And anti-skateboarding
Anti-skateboarding is just anit-youth in another guise. A couple of years ago I used roller-blades as my primary means of transport, and was never hastled by the cops (I'm in my forties) while at the same time I regularly saw kids on skateboards being ticketed.
In the most extreme case a cop was ticketing a kid while I was sitting on the curb just down the block taking my skates off, being completely ignored by the cop. The kid and I shared a look, shrugged. We both saw the contradition, both knew what the score was, and knew that there wasn't a damned thing either of us could do about it.
Even the cop was probably aware of what was going on: they have their priorities handed too them by the folks above, and for the most part try to do the best they can despite that.
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
It's clearly music, in the same way that the red square in a box is art. However, it is a bit difficult to listen to, and a square in a box is a bit difficult to appreciate.
Noise music can be much more interesting/clever: example.
I sometimes like stuff like this when clubbing, but it's not something I'd listen to at home, it's just fun to dance to. If I'm really drunk (in the club) I'll go to the room where they play stuff like this, which I get bored of extremely quickly while sober.
(At home I play stuff like this. People have played "superior" music to me, full of time signatures and so on, but it doesn't do anything for me. It's just different.)
You are aware that A Clockwork Orange was fiction, aren't you? It was a movie and not a documentary.
Ah, but you forget the grand trend of modern British socio-political evolution!
1) A science-fiction writer writes a dark, paranoid novel about how trends in society of his day will lead to a future, fascist dystopia.
2) A generation of students grows up reading the classic of literature and incorporating it into their worldview.
3) Technology catches up with fiction, and a generation of politicians raised on a SF classic decides it would be a good idea to implement by their "obviously more trustworthy than the villains of the novel" hands.
Sometimes I think of the UK as a nation trying its best to become the world first fully democratic police state.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
-- cruel and unusual punishment.
On top of that, if schools (in general) were actually teaching good basic information that children need and can use in life, instead of them becoming more and more social indoctrination clinics, such odd solutions as the one in the article would not even need to be considered.
I'll bet the Chinese could conduct the same study with their classical music and get the same result, and in 300 years someone will find the same with Michael Jackson. I wouldn't put too much into that study until the study was done a couple of times by multiple individuals, and I would be very interested in the mechanism that makes it work specifically for classical (as opposed to, say, techno or some of the more complex rock music, where there is also complexity in the notes). Whenever a previously baseless belief is perfectly confirmed, I think that's a good time to be skeptical. What a coincidence it would be that a particular type of centuries old Western music, popular with the 'tasteful' upper class, happens to makes people smarter.
Someday soon, we'll be blasting death metal in nursing homes...
Well, given the ageing of the population, the advance of medicine prolonging life, rthe various "Letter"-Generation getting old, etc. ...the population of nursing home will actually *ask* for death metal.
(And the nurse would wonder what's wrong in playing "nU b1p-c0re" out loud on their Google iPhone 5G. And why some elderly politician wants to outlaw it on the grounds it corrupts the youth)
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
It isn't possible to be a dangerous thug when it's playing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVS3QqrXhD8
Camping on quad since 1996.
You've got to be kidding me. I've lived in the DC area my entire life and visit Baltimore quite a bit. The number of "gated communities" I've encountered could be counted on two hands. They're much more common out west, particularly in the Southwest like Vegas or Phoenix.
You really don't know what you're talking about. There are "bad" neighborhoods near DC (mostly in MD), but they are immediately adjacent to middle class neighborhoods with no barriers between. There are gangs and crime just like any urban area, but they are addressed with policing, youth centers, neighborhood watches, etc. Most of the cities you mention have seen dramatic drops in crime rates over the past 10-15 years.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
They play loud classical music to drive away drug dealers and loitering youth. It seems to work.
Lots of people have been introduced to classical music through the animation of Chuck Jones and others.
Some people, including myself, have thought there were words to "Barber of Seville" thanks to Chuck's "Rabbit of Seville". And don't forget the Oscar-winning "What's Opera Doc?' with the ever-famous "Kill the Wabiit" song.
Tom & Jerry usually have their wordless antics backed by wordless orchestra music too.
It could be worst, they could be playing selections from "American Idol". They wouldn't even have to play it very loud.
Yes I am aware that this is in the UK, and not the US. The point stands.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Heh, I can confess to using classical music as a sleep-aid occasionally.
For your maximum laugh at my expense, I offer the story of taking my wife to an Christmas performance of our local orchestra. The music was so soothing I did fall asleep. The moment I snored, she promptly woke me with a well-applied backhand to the shoulder. I awoke the sound of snickers around me. I guess they knew what "snore-whack" meant.
I'm definitely not any kind of high-minded music person. I was introduced to some of the better aspects of it by a college roommate who was studying music and I began to appreciate the difficulty and hard work of making good music with so many people.
... well behaved kids hanging around, like Alex.
Have gnu, will travel.
Sort of like whenever someone makes some completely retarded piece of "modern art", like a red circle on an otherwise huge, blank canvas, and goes around with their little possy of "art-knowers" looking down at everyone who dares point out that a red circle on a piece of canvas does not, in any damn way, constitute art. =P
Maybe it's just me, but if someone can make money selling the flag of Japan to a museum you should probably rethink calling them retarded.
Virg
This is absolutely disgusting, regardless of its effectiveness. Using Pavlonian conditioning to undermine free will is beyond inhumane.
Not only that, but they are also abusing these ancient and highly-prized works and further destroying anyone's interest in them in the future.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
Most of them don't have any repsect for public spaces! I live in a pleasant town in South East England and in the summer like to go to down my local park with some friends, have a picnic, bottle of wine and play some Frisbee or football etc. Everytime there's a group of 'yoofs' there they leave a stinking pile of rubbish even though they have to walk past a bin on their way out.
Yesterday at the train station I saw a group of 6 'yoofs' walk out of the waiting room with that typical 'I don't give a fuck' look - I went in the waiting room - it stank of smoke, was littered with beer cans and burger boxes and there was huge globs of spit on the chairs. (I have nothing against smoking or drinking - I do both. I even eat the odd burger (but that's beside the point))
We (England) have a major problem with some of our kids - they are feral, violent, rude and they don't care about anything but themselves.
Most of Mozart's music is mind-numbing trash and therefore the perfect choice for this.
I could not agree more with the youth who find it repugnant.
I have to agree with this as stated. Mozart wrote constantly, and Sturgeon's Law applies. Just because it's "classical" doesn't make every work a classic - and while Mozart wrote some gems he was still the "boy band" of his day.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I think much of the problem is the parenting. Most kids these days here in the USA are borne by poorer parents; richer people have fewer kids, and frequently no kids. As a result, a large percentage of children in the USA grow up in poverty. Poor parents don't do a great job of raising their kids, either because they don't know how, or don't care, or don't have time because they're trying to work two jobs to get ahead. So the kids grow up to be criminals. Wealthier couples who would make better parents for the most part aren't having as many kids (and I don't blame them; they're expensive, and there's too many people as it is).
When the lowest rungs of society are creating and raising the next generation, we can't expect very good results.
I have no idea what the answer is, except perhaps to forcibly sterilize poor couples after they have one or two children so they stop creating so many criminals. Obviously, that's not going to happen.
McDonald's used to play country music to discourage loitering at some urban locations
Oho, very good, very good indeed :D
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
This has nothing to do with recent development. Remember that a few decades ago, it was perfectly fine to hit children with wooden rulers, sticks, belts, whatever was at hand. Not punishing children was but a temporary fad.
[...]
Just like any animal the old have to ensure their dominance lest they become obsolete.
You know, it's an interesting point you raise. Historically, parents have been far harsher with their children than they do today. In some ways, our treatment of children as precious is far in contrast to the days when children were passed off to hired help or put to work as laborers. Children were in many ways treated as the enemy.
Dan Carlin's podcast "Hardcore History" took a review of this in its December 9th episode. I highly recommend it.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
The 7/11 mini marts in Los Angeles, California have been doing this for over a decade to repel gangs and homeless persons. The biggest problem is that over time the "undesireables" have beecome desensitized to the classical music and have aquired an immunity to it.
It may not affect principles (though I think that's debatable) but it definitely affects the quality.
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
What The Fuck ?
I couldn't believe when I saw this article's title, really.
I may be 17 and I like classical music, I mean it's music in it's bare form, it's perfect to learn theory, but I listen modern electronic music, that takes all this theory and adds another ton of theory (filters, compression, dynamic ranges, etc) and it's more complex, fun and sometimes original.
But I would be an hypocrite if I listened to trance and hated formal music, it's like loving house and hating funk, I wouldn't be listening it because I love how it sounds, because they sound the same, I would be listening to it because some social crap.
4 - A robot may not masturbate, except where such action would conflict with the Second Law.
There are a lot of sounds out there that would deter youths. There's the high frequency range that's audible to only younger people that is supposed to work great. Just blaring some Nickelback be would have been enough to keep me from going anywhere near a place.
Re "Score:0, Offtopic", it annoys the crap out of me when mods mod admissions/corrections like this negatively --- it's just the poster clarifying the identity of who posted the comment, how can that possibly be "off topic", it's just neutral.
Downtown near where I work, they drive away the bums by blaring Beatles tunes 24 hours a day. In German. It works.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Of course, the performance matters a lot. If you've got the Von Karajan recordings playing on a decent sound system, then it might not scare people away. On the other hand, I saw a play of The Clockwork Orange a few years ago (very 'arty' - all female cast, which really didn't work) that used a techno remix of Beethoven's 9th. That would make most people run away...
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Yep, i'm gonna be the one to get into a music argument on slashdot.
Mozart is way overrated. Good? Yes. Chopin, amazing by comparison. Not really contemporaries, so maybe the comparison isn't apt though.
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
I do 95% of my music listening while in the car - that's just when I have time to do it. The trouble is exactly what the GP spells out... you can't hear the quiet parts, so you turn up the volume... and then your eardrums get blown out when the cannons go off. Nothing against classical music - I really like it (at least some pieces). But I almost never end up listening to any, because you just can't do it in a car.
Obviously, you have not listened to enough Mozart. Years ago my brother and I pooled our money and bought the Complete Mozart Collection, 90 CDs over 45 volumes. I categorically disagree with you. Though you may have heard some of his music, you have not heard enough. Note for note, there is no better classical music composer who ever lived. You are wrong sir! I am not comparing him to Chopin.
Most of his stuff is kinda dull to listen to, yes. It's all great fun to play, though.
No it does not cover up the taste. There is almost no taste and what is there has a faint odor of skunk spray because of the brewing method and piss poor (pun yes?) glassware and storage. You can to some extent filter the vile out and carefully boost the alcohol by freezing then use it mixed drinks but it's easier to use a turbo yeast and brew a 40 proof malt liquor.
I have a fermenter full of beer that's been brewing since August 09, it might be bottled this month. It will sit in the bottle conditioning for at least six months longer. I love ales as they are easy and I can beat many of the higher quality high gravity ales in both taste and price.
My version of swill beer is an all barely malt with a good ale yeast fermented for at least two months and bottle conditioned for three more. I wish it was still cheaper than chinkweiser to make but that alas is long gone unless I get a farm.
I will trade for lagers from time to time but only a few appeal to me.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
But quality itself is determined by the same methodology, isn't it? So what is perceived as a decrease of quality in one times, might be perceived as increase of quality in different times. It's really hard not to be a subjective idealist when it comes to social phenomena in Western world
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
I will be the first one to admit I haven't heard enough classical music, to be fair.
Any idea if such a collection is available electronically? My work-blinkered internet isn't being much help so far.
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
YouTube is full of Mozart. Go to YouTube and search on Mozart. Here's an awesome one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z37I4ddUKVc
"If it's not an activity involving spending money, we don't want it happening near us."