Google Wants To Be Your Electricity Meter

An anonymous reader writes "Google has teamed up with microcontroller maker Microchip to develop an API for a piece of software called Google PowerMeter, according this EE Times story. Why? Because Google wants to host all the details of the electricity and other energy consumption of people's homes. It wants to do this so that it can show people on their iGoogle homepages when and where they are consuming energy so that they can start to reduce their power consumption. The good news is that it is an opt-in service and free so you don't have to make Google your energy-monitor if you don't want to do so."

Comments

Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

It's funny that this has little to do with your power bill since you only oay for the unbalanced load between phases. You can draw 40 amps from phase 1 and 50 amps from phase 2, but only get charged for 10 amps. I don't need google to tell me how to save money on my power bill!

Re:Blah blah blah

[gtbritishskull]

What you said does not really make sense to me, and I don't know why you are talking about getting charged for amps. My power company charges me per kilowatt-hour, which is a unit of energy. Amps is just the current flow. The amount of power (and hence energy) being used depends on the voltage as well. I am not sure if what you said is actually wrong, but I am pretty sure it is.

Re:Blah blah blah

[MrNaz]

It's wrong because it violates the third law of thermofinancials: Bills are always created and can never be destroyed.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Andy Dodd]

[citation needed]

You get charged for the energy you use, period.

There may be EXTRA surcharges for unbalanced loading between phases, and for excessively reactive or inductive loads, but you don't get free electricity by drawing a balanced load.

Note: Penalties on uneven/reactive loading of the grid are usually not assessed against home users, just large commercial facilities.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Rallias Ubernerd]

Ohms law: V = I times R where V is voltage, I is ampage, and R is resistance.
("Ohm's law: Wikipedia.org

Re:Blah blah blah

[Indras]

This is absolutely wrong. The obvious flaw in your argument: 220V loads. A clothes dryer, for instance, creates a complete circuit between the two phases to provide the 220V necessary to run the load. Therefore, 220V appliances are ALWAYS balanced loads, requiring no neutral/ground to handle the difference. Are you trying to tell me that the power company does not charge you for electricity you use in 220 circuits?

Re:Blah blah blah

[confused one]

Turn on your oven then check your meter. I'll wait... The meter is spinning isn't it? Your oven is a 240V resistive load pulling equally from both phases. By the way, phase is somewhat of a misnomer in household application because it's really a single phase with a transformer center tap (the neutral leg) that's tied to ground.

Re:Blah blah blah

[gtbritishskull]

Don't really know what you are trying to say. The more pertinent equation is P = V times I. (P is power). But if you are using AC electricity then voltage is not constant. And, the amperage draw on most electronics does not follow the voltage (they do not have a constant resistance). Most "wall wart" type transformers that convert to DC power only draw power at the peaks in voltage, but not when it is below the threshold. While a lightbulb (which has a constant resistance) would have an amperage draw that followed the same pattern as the voltage. So, if the two were drawing the same amount of amperage, the "wall wart" would be using more power since it uses the amperage when the voltage is higher. Hence, since your bill is based upon power usage, you would pay more for the wall wart.

Re:Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

Look inside your power panel. You will see that your dryer circuit is actually connected by a double breaker which is on one phase. It is not 220 volts, it is two 110 volt legs drawn from a single phase. These voltages are never added to make 220 volts. If you don't believe me, unplug the dryer and follow the wiring inside.

Re:Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

I talked about amps to simplify things. The ac voltage arriving at your house is pretty much a regulated constant with the exception of occasional surges, blackouts and brownouts. Every part of your household electrical system is designed to function at the voltage supplied to your house. Look inside your breaker panel, every breaker is rated in amps. The wiring in your house is rated in amps. Therefore the only thing that is a variable is how much current is drawn through the system. I assumed people would see this was obvious. Anyway, if you don't believe me, turn on everything in your house and then go outside and notice the rate at which your meter is spinning. Go back inside and flip all the breakers off in one row, leaving the other side on. Go back out to the meter and you will notice that it is spinning a lot faster.

Re:Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

Nope, your oven is only tied to one phase. Open your breaker box and you will see that it is being supplied by a double breaker tied to only one phase. Therefore it only draws from a single phase.

Re:Blah blah blah

[commodore64_love]

Yeah the first post didn't make much sense to me either. Other than my air conditioner (which had been off for months), everything in my house uses single phase power, and it's billed by watts. So I'm not really sure what you're referring to in regards to phase1 and phase2 since all my present usage is only single phase.

Maybe the First Poster can explain further what he meant?

As for the article, I think it would be cool to have an electricity meter. The MPG gauge in my Honda Insight has helped me tailor my driving. When I first bought the thing I could barely get the EPA-stickered 70 miles per gallon, but now with practice I average 90 overall, and over 100 MPG on I-95 (the key is to not use the brake, as it wastes energy).

Being able to monitor my house amd make similar adjustments would work in my favor.

Re:Blah blah blah

[pnewhook]

This is ridiculous.

NO one has three phase running to their home unless they are an industrial complex or shopping mall. Three phase is on the pole, only a single phase gets sent to the house.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Elros]

In my breaker panel, each phase is interlaced with the other (think interlacing your fingers). The top breaker on each side is from one phase. The second is from the other phase. The third is back to the first phase, etc. A double breaker does join across the two phases. Turning off one side of breakers does not limit you to only using one phase.

Your claim that those voltages are never added to make 220 is blatantly false.

Re:Blah blah blah

[viking099]

I rewired my dryer last year, and it does use 2 phases. The power buses are staggered, so that one breaker is on a different bus from the one directly above it.

Your typical house has around 200 amp service at 220v coming in from the power company. The incoming wore goes through the meter and into your breaker box, which splits it into the 2 phases, one per bus. A double breaker (in my case a Square D brand) just snaps onto both buses (like here: Breaker box and gets a 220v current at the amperage of the breaker.

Electric stoves, heaters, and many power tools use 2 phase power. It's more efficient than single phase, and isn't as expensive as 3 phase (which is what industrial applications use).

Re:Blah blah blah

[pnewhook]

No. You don't understand basic house wiring.

A house gets a single phase 220V line with neutral. Lines requiring 220V use the two 220 taps. Most circuits just need 110 which is one of the 220 taps and the neutral. So yes, two 110 lines added will make 220, because the 110 lines are just half of the source 220.

But everything is single phase.

Re:Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

I'm glad you asked for clarification and I am happy to respond. While most of the loads in your house are only single phase loads, they are attached to one of two phases coming from the stepdown transformer on the power pole, or the green metal box if you live in an apartment complex. Open your breaker box and you will see that you have two 110 power buses and a neutral bus. By the way, your air conditioner draws from one phase. It is supplied by a double breaker on the same leg, so in actuality it has two 110 volt lines coming to it. One of the hot wires supplies the air conditioners compressor and the other supplies the motor which turns the fan. Anyway, if you were to pull your meter, (which I do not suggest doing - go to an electrical supply house instead), you will see that the socket for your meter doesn't tie at all into the neutral line. On either side of the neutral line are two, (four total), slots for your meter to attach to. It is not attached to the neutral leg at all - it is not reading how much power you are actually using. Therefore, the meter is only reading the two phases, comparing them - subtracting one from the other. I talked about amps to simplify things. The ac voltage arriving at your house is pretty much a regulated constant with the exception of occasional surges, blackouts and brownouts. Every part of your household electrical system is designed to function at the voltage supplied to your house. Look inside your breaker panel, every breaker is rated in amps. The wiring in your house is rated in amps. Therefore the only thing that is a variable is how much current is drawn through the system. I assumed people would see this was obvious.

Re:Blah blah blah

[gtbritishskull]

I talked about amps to simplify things. The ac voltage arriving at your house is pretty much a regulated constant with the exception of occasional surges, blackouts and brownouts. Every part of your household electrical system is designed to function at the voltage supplied to your house.

True, everything is designed to work at (in the US) 120V AC but that does not mean that it has a similar current draw. For a light bulb (which is just a resistor) the current will follow the shape of the voltage (they will both be sinusoidal with the same phase and frequency). But, a cheap AC to DC converter will just have a diode and a capacitor. The current draw for these would be almost zero up to the voltage that the capacitor is currently charged to, and then would jump up once the mains voltage got above that point. So, you would get all of your amperage at high voltages and none at low voltages. This would use more power than a lightbulb that used the same amperage.

Look inside your breaker panel, every breaker is rated in amps. The wiring in your house is rated in amps. Therefore the only thing that is a variable is how much current is drawn through the system.

That is incorrect. The rating is based the wire's ability to dissipate heat so that a fire won't be started. A wire has a constant resistance (per length of wire) so the power dissipated is proportional to the amperage (P = I^2 * R). And, any power dissipated is converted into heat. The fuse/breaker is rated in amps because it is designed to protect the wiring. That is why the breakers are also rated in amps.

Anyway, if you don't believe me, turn on everything in your house and then go outside and notice the rate at which your meter is spinning. Go back inside and flip all the breakers off in one row, leaving the other side on. Go back out to the meter and you will notice that it is spinning a lot faster.

This is an interesting assertion. I will have to test it to see. It is possible that due to reactive power the mains do charge more if you use only one line. I will have to look into it. Thanks for the info.

Re:Blah blah blah

[cyxxon]

Huh? At least in Europe we have three phase running to our houses, and you even attach, say, electric kitchen stoves directly to this...

Re:Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

I never mentioned three phase. Your house is supplied with two lines that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other and a neutral line that come from a center-tapped step down transformer- this is called two phase power. If you are only getting a single phase at your house, you probably live in a remote part of the world where power distribution lines are only a few miles long.

Re:Blah blah blah

[ooshna]

Don't the double breakers have one breaker on one line and the other breaker on the second? so if you put a breaker in each slot it would go 1 then2 then 1 then2 ect. ect .

Re:Blah blah blah

[gtbritishskull]

It gets even cooler than that, as I assume you are tech savvy. Businesses (ones that use a lot of electricity like manufacturing plants) do not generally pay a flat fee for power. Power gets more expensive as demand goes up, because a base load power plant (coal, nuclear, hydro) can make electricity very cheaply, but cannot scale the amount it is making up and down very easily. So, there are a bunch of other (usually gas turbine) power plants scattered around that can turn on very quickly when they are needed. But, these are expensive to run. So, the business usually pays the actual cost of the power (which increases during the day and in the summer). Residential service is generally just averaged out. So, if you had a smart meter that was told by the power plant how much power costs in real time, you could connect your computer to it and adjust your power usage. You could set your thermostat based upon the price of power (as the price goes up you let your house get warmer, when it goes down you turn the AC back on to cool it down). You could dim your lights. Have your laptop run off of battery power. Anything is possible (assuming you have a very smart house) and everyone wins. Your power bill will go down because you are buying power when it is cheap. The power company saves money because the load becomes more normalized.

There are already offers out there where the power company can turn off your AC in return for a discounted rate (so they can control the power leveling). This is, in my opinion, less than ideal. I think it would be better for the consumers to decide through the free market. They can decide how much life's little luxuries are worth to them, and program their power consumption to fit their needs.

Re:Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

Ok, I live in America so things might be different for you. My power comes from a step-down transformer. This transformer has a center-tap which is the neutral and two 110 volt lines that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other - I know this because I can compare the two phases with an oscilliscope and create lissajous figures, (which show phase differences). Anyway, you can not take two wires from the same phase and get additional voltage, you only get increased current carrying capacity. Many appliances claim to be 220 volt, but if you look inside you see that one wire powers one device and the other powers another.

Re:Blah blah blah

[KUHurdler]

no it's not.
It's called 3-Wire, single-phase. (They are the same phase, 0 degrees apart)
In 3-phase the feeders are 120 degrees apart.

Re:Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

Double breakers are two single breakers designed to trip in an "and/or" logic. They are tied to the same phase.

Re:Blah blah blah

[jbezorg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_distribution

U.S. and parts of Canada and Latin America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

Re:Blah blah blah

[confused one]

You have failed basic electrical engineering. The double breaker taps the two separate hot legs. You're statement about "same phase" is only (partially) valid because homes are only fed single phase 240V with a transformer center tap connection refered to as the "neutral". The voltage from either one leg to neutral is the familiar 120V. These are often referred to (somewhat incorrectly) as two separate phases. IF that double breaker is installed in a commercial three-phase panel, it would tap two unique phases of the feed.

Double (and triple) breakers are designed to trip all phases if any one exceeds the designed current limit. This may be accomplished by a simple tie between the switch levers or by an internal link (this case usually only has one external switch lever).

Please don't do any electrical work on someone's home -- you might burn the place down or kill someone.

Re:Blah blah blah

[cayenne8]

"A clothes dryer, for instance, creates a complete circuit between the two phases to provide the 220V necessary to run the load."

Even my gas dryer?

Re:Blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not true at all. The two legs of the split-phase system alternate breaker positions, not one side of the box vs the other. This is so that you can install a double-pole breaker and get both phases - 240 Volts vs 120 Volts. Your AC does in fact run at 240, not 120. This allows you to transfer the same amount of power with lower current in each wire. Wire gauge is determined by the current it has to carry, so you get to use less copper. It is possible to run parts of the unit (for example the fan) at 120 V by taking one of the hot wire and the neutral rather than both hots. Don't believe me, try a volt meter. If the two wires were really from the same leg, you would see zero volts between them and 110/120 to neutral, but in reality you see 240 between the two hots and 120 between each hot and neutral.

Also, your meter measures how much power is consumed, regardless of which phase you draw the power from. You can't somehow cheat and balance the loads in your house so you don't pay for any power.

Re:Blah blah blah

[English French Man]

I confirm this, even if in France it tends to disappear, replaced by single phase. It was even used in a "normal" fashion in the fifties and sixties (wall plugs were 3-pinned without ground, and 4-pinned with), this was abandoned, probably because of complexity or failure to build usable things powered by three-phased current.

Organisations with huge needs for current still do have them though.

As for using amps, this is cryptic, of course voltage is a given, so giving only amps indicates the power consumed in the instant. It still has to be multiplied by time though, if I use my oven for 5 minutes or for 70 000 hours, it will not cost me the same.

Re:Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

You're right. This is what I love about slashdot. I see that electronics technicians are sometimes too cocky and think they know everything. However, I always thought the two hot legs from a center tapped transformer were 180 degrees apart and therefore two separate "phases".
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/1.html near the bottom of the page.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Mashdar]

Sigh. Okay, I am not an electrical engineer by license, but from an EE degree and EIT, I think I know how a meter works.

or the green metal box if you live in an apartment complex

Whether you have a pole or pad mounted transformer has more to do with the utility than the load size unless you are talking >400 amp service.

your air conditioner draws from one phase.

I am more familiar with commercial units, but I would be shocked if most residential units did not use 2-pole wiring for auxiliary heat, and probably the compressor.

It is supplied by a double breaker on the same leg, so in actuality it has two 110 volt lines coming to it.

Phases in standard US breaker boxes alternate by row. So no, a two pole breaker uses (gasp) two poles.

One of the hot wires supplies the air conditioners compressor and the other supplies the motor which turns the fan.

Again, at least with commercial units, the compressor would be line-to-line, and the fan would be line-to-neutral on a shared pole with the compressor. I just looked up a Trane residential unit and it is rated 208/230/1/60. So still two pole single phase.

Anyway, if you were to pull your meter

(almost always) Property of the utility. Not to mention it may be upstream of any disconnects you have access to. Do not pull the meter for risk of death, injury, and/or monetary/legal penalties.

you will see that the socket for your meter doesn't tie at all into the neutral line.

Right. Because the neutral is not a power source. It cannot supply you with power. In fact, in most cases it is electrically the same as ground.

On either side of the neutral line are two, (four total), slots for your meter to attach to.

Yeah. Two per pole, one in, one out. This is how series circuits work.

It is not attached to the neutral leg at all - it is not reading how much power you are actually using.

Wrong. It reads current and the angle between current and voltage. From the angle you can get a power factor, and determine what your power usage is. The neutral is irrelevant.

Therefore, the meter is only reading the two phases, comparing them - subtracting one from the other.

What on earth are you talking about? Subtracting the currents?

I talked about amps to simplify things.

You talked about amps because (clearly) you know a tiny bit, but not enough to actually know how your meter works.

The ac voltage arriving at your house is pretty much a regulated constant with the exception of occasional surges, blackouts and brownouts. Every part of your household electrical system is designed to function at the voltage supplied to your house. Look inside your breaker panel, every breaker is rated in amps. The wiring in your house is rated in amps. Therefore the only thing that is a variable is how much current is drawn through the system. I assumed people would see this was obvious.

You are overlooking resistive and reactive load qualities. You only get charged (on residential loads everywhere I'm familiar with) for resistive loads.

Why do you think that the hundred-year-old utility has not designed a proper meter? I am baffled. Years of engineering went into making your meter the awesome and inexpensive piece of equipment that it is. To think that you could come along and "cheat" somehow is just idiotic. Feel free to correct/argue any of the points above, please. If I have overlooked something, let me know.

Re:Blah blah blah

[witherstaff]

Some power companies offer 'off peak metering' that charges far less for the off peak times. They put in a smart meter for timing and I've seen bills drop by 2/3rds. Power from 7am - 7pm weekdays is normal, anything other than that (Evenings, weekends, holidays) is just a fraction of the cost. For the normal person that's when you're washing clothes, cooking, using lights anyways so it helps without smart equipment.

The funny thing, power companies often don't tell people about this. I've had people that worked for a power company that offers it not know about it. If you call and ask the service reps may not know about it. But if you say you'll be putting in oh, electric heat, or a new on demand electric water heater, and are looking for ways to save money on electric bills they'll bounce you to the right person. Even if you never do install a new product it saves money.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

My gas oven doens't use much electricity.

Re:Blah blah blah

[RobertM1968]

Most houses have two phase. Usually two 100A legs nowadays. Or more accurately, two reversed phase 110V 100A "legs"

220V appliances in a house use each 110V phase.

In a breaker box, there is generally one "double" breaker feeding such devices... which connect to adjacent terminals in the box. The box is wired internally so that every other connection is the same leg, while the ones inbetween are the leg that is 180 degrees "off phase"

Now, on older houses that have not had their service upgraded, anything is possible. We've went into ones with single phase, 50A, 60A, 100A, etc connections... and others with two phase 100A, etc...

I'd say I know this from doing residential and commercial construction and wiring, but... oh, wait, that is why I know this.

Anyways, meters today generally seem to read the draw from each phase... not the "aggregate" load across both phases.

The reason to balance the loads isn't to save money... it's to save your house's wiring. Both phases share a common neutral and ground. It's the same thing I need to keep in mind when we do set lighting for Star Trek New Voyages: Phase 2... our distro boxes are three phase, with each stringer have (3) 30A phases and sharing the same ground and neutral.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Mashdar]

No. In the United States (I assume this is what you mean by America, which is not a country), the breakers in your panel alternate poles by row. So if you have a two-pole breaker, it is connected to two poles and DOES supply 208/230V power (depending on whether you have two pole or three pole service). If you actually did what you proposed, and open up your panel, you would see that the bus-bars are fingered and rows 1,3,5,7,9 (ie odd numbered breakers) are Phase A, and even breakers are Phase B. If your panel is properly labeled, this should be clear from the sticker inside the cover. Go ahead and stick a multi-meter in your dryer socket if you don't believe me.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Mashdar]

OK, having read enough of your (wrong) comments, I think your problem is you think that each side of the breaker box is its own phase. This is not the case. The rows alternate, and that two pole breaker is actually 240V line-to-line. Once again, go stick a multimeter in your oven socket if you don't believe it.

Re:Blah blah blah

[SloWave]

Can I am assume you are a software engineer?

Re:Blah blah blah

[confused one]

You're welcome. The split phase system is an awkward (or convenient) legacy of the Westinghouse adaptation to the early Edison DC power transmission system (Two 110V DC legs and a single ground return).

Re:Blah blah blah

[pnewhook]

NO. It's single phase. All houses in North America are served by single phase.

Re:Blah blah blah

[pnewhook]

The other poster Mashdar is correct. In North America, houses are all fed by a single phase 220 after a step down transformer.

Taking either line against the neutral gives you 110, taking both lines gives you 220. This is at the fuse box - you cannot obviously take two 110 plugs in your house and combine them to get 220.

Re:Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

I think that about covers it! I do have a question for you though. Why is it that when I flip all the breakers off on one side of the box, the meter spins a lot faster than when I have all of them on?

Re:Blah blah blah

[dgatwood]

There's some confusion here, and unfortunately, you're both right. The true definition of a phase is the time delay of an electrical signal. By definition, when you go through a building transformer, you get two AC voltages that are effectively 180 degrees out of phase. Thus, by any reasonable standard of electronics, households have two-phase power.

Unfortunately, when it comes to electrical power generation, the term "phase" is commonly overloaded to refer not to any arbitrary phase, but to specific phases (0 degrees, 120 degrees, and 240 degrees) of three-phase power as seen in high-voltage distribution lines. So in that respect, each household gets only a single phase.

I would argue that the people saying home power is two-phase power are more technically correct, but calling it two-phase power does risk confusion with another, obsolete two-phase power system that had two phases that were 90 degrees apart, so it's probably best that folks avoid using such terms and instead describe these household phases as being the two legs of your building transformer instead.

Re:Blah blah blah

[dgatwood]

I'm not certain. Maybe your power company's metering is set up to penalize you when you have a highly reactive load, and that you're cutting off all your resistive loads that previously balanced things out a bit. Do you mostly use CFLs? Or perhaps the power company's metering intentionally penalizes houses that draw more heavily from one side of the transformer so that people won't do that. (That said, I can't imagine why they would do that; once you get past the building transformer, it's the same load either way, and up to the building transformer, it's your problem if it fails, so unless they under-specify the building transformers themselves, that seems a little silly.)

Another possibility would be that your building ground is inadequate. If you have, say, a bunch of devices with linear regulators (as opposed to switching regulators), they dissipate more power at higher source voltages. If the voltage sags because the ground has gone high because of other devices putting current into a poor ground, they will draw less power. When those other devices stop raising the ground reference, the linear regulators would draw more current. So the requirement would be that the other devices would have to draw less power than the extra current draw from the linear regulators. Perhaps you shut off a bunch of cheap CFLs that draw high VA but draw low wattage (or other reactive loads).

That said, I'm grasping at straws here; IANAEE; IJPOOSD. It's certainly very odd.

Re:Blah blah blah

[pnewhook]

Agreed. In the terminology of house and utility wiring, the term 'two phase' doesn't really exist. You have either three phase (120 degree apart) or single phase. The fact that the two hots are 180 degrees out of phase wrt the neutral is irrelevant. The terminology still calls that single phase, because its off of a single phase of the original three phase transmission line.

Re:Blah blah blah

[pnewhook]

Most houses have two phase. Usually two 100A legs nowadays.

Wrong terminology - thats *single* phase.

Re:Blah blah blah

[commodore64_love]

I had that "off peak" installed in my just-built house in 1989. In fact it was more-or-less required because the Electric Company was trying out a new system that heated water at night, and used that hot water to keep the house warm during the day.

In exchange we get 2 cents cheaper power from 5 pm to 7 am.

Re:Blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Three phase 240V here in Australia too. Pretty sure each phase is a 200amp circuit.

Re:Blah blah blah

[RobertM1968]

Or three wire split phase.

Guess I've spent too much time working on residential dual zoned (res/com) buildings wired for commercial.

Re:Blah blah blah

[RobertM1968]

This is ridiculous.

NO one has three phase running to their home unless they are an industrial complex or shopping mall...

Or at our little filming studio ;-)

The hum of the transformers in the building is quite calming... till one realizes just how much power goes through the beasts.

And yes, it requires THREE separate transformers outside on the property to deliver the voltage to the transformers in the building which drop it to 110V.

I wouldnt mind getting such a setup for the home... ya know... for the day when decent electric cars are available on this coast...

Re:Blah blah blah

[pnewhook]

If you pull enough power to unbalance a single phase, the utility company will probably install a three phase. I've heard of high end homes that have electric heated hottub and pool, electric heat to cover 400-500 sq ft, and even electric heated driveways to melt the snow. I don't know if they have three phase, but from the utility guys I know, they end up with their own pad transformer - the kind normally reserved for a residential block or small mall.

Re:Blah blah blah

[scosco62]

Can I am assume you are a software engineer?

No, merely a resistor

Re:Blah blah blah

[Mashdar]

I'm honestly not sure. I've never heard of this phenomenon. Does it happen when either side is switched off, or just one? As someone else said, it might be an attempt at enforcing load balancing, but I can't imagine why your balancing should change much by disabling one side or the other. I was also considering some sort of fault (current flowing somewhere it shouldn't, or in an "off" device), but I can't think of a scenario where this would explain it. One thought: Maybe your AC came on when you tested it? Or the fridge? :) I will ask around and post back if anyone I work with has heard of this.

Re:Blah blah blah

[voodoo cheesecake]

I will have a friend who is an inspector come by and check it out too. Thank you.

Re:Blah blah blah

[dgatwood]

IIRC, time-of-day metering is generally required by the electric company if you install any sort of solar panel setup. That's one reason solar panels can save so much money. On top of charging you lower rates in the mornings or evenings (depending on time of year) when you're home and are likely to be using the most power, you're also adding power into the grid when power is at its most expensive (during the day when all f the businesses have their air conditioning on.

Microsoft too

[BadAnalogyGuy]

http://www.microsoft-hohm.com/

Who's following who?

Re:Microsoft too

[Nerdfest]

I'm not sure who was first, but the Google project has been around for a couple of years now. This is not really new 'news'.

Re:Microsoft too

[Anonymous Coward]

so has the light switch.

Re:Microsoft too

[V!NCENT]

But does the Microsoft one runs Linux?

Re:Microsoft too

[InsertWittyNameHere]

They're extremely different.

GOOGLE: "PowerMeter is free software that displays details of home energy consumption received from either a smartmeter or another electricity monitoring device."

vs.

MICROSOFT: "After signing up for Hohm with your Windows Live ID and Postal Code, you simply enter some information about your home (for example, occupants, appliances and systems) and you will receive your energy report with personalized recommendations. The more information you provide, the more accurate and relevant the recommendations will be."

Re:Microsoft too

[Anonymous Coward]

You get a lot of first posts, did you ever think if you got out and got laid you might be less likely to sit on slashdot 12 hours a day?

Re:Microsoft too

[Anonymous Coward]

It's "who's following wohm". :-)

Re:Microsoft too

[Anonymous Coward]

I work on a smart meter project that sends this data to Google and I'm a developer very close to the process. It's a pretty cool concept, but if the data is coming from the *meter* it's going through the utility, which means you're probably going to have a 24 hour delay while it makes it's way through the corporate bullshitfrastructure. What I would want, is to go flip a switch and watch a line start going either up or down inside my home letting me know immediately.

Re:Microsoft too

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldn't trust a company that misspells "home"

Soon - Google wants to be your valentine -

[unity100]

with, Google Valentine (TM)

at this rate, we will come face to face with google apps even we go to take a dump in the loo someday ..... "Google wants to dump with you - Google Shit (TM)"

Re:Soon - Google wants to be your valentine -

[Anonymous Coward]

Google Shit (TM)

No need to wait, the future is now! Google Shit (TM) is already available under the code name Youtube(TM).

Re:Soon - Google wants to be your valentine -

[ByOhTek]

I thought YouTube was Random People's Shit, and Google Shit was Google Wave

Re:Soon - Google wants to be your valentine -

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you can tell how much CO2 and Methane you are putting into the air and tell you what foods you can eat to reduce your gas emissions!

Re:Soon - Google wants to be your valentine -

[delinear]

Reading this, I figured Google were setting up the most ridiculously elaborate burglary scheme ever. They've cased the outside of your house with Google Earth, maps and street view. They know you've bought a big shiny new plasma TV via your search history and Google pay, and they even know where it's located in your house because of the Youtube video you posted of your sweet media setup. They also see you've been looking at holidays and now suddenly they can tell your electricity usage has dropped indicating you're away from home...

Re:Soon - Google wants to be your valentine -

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought YouTube was Random People's Shit, and Google Shit was Google Wave

no no no Google Wave is more of a Google fart -half stink, half vapor.

Re:Soon - Google wants to be your valentine -

[mjwx]

"Google wants to dump with you - Google Shit (TM)"

I'm going with Gloo

Now works with Tweet-a-Watt!

[sp332]

Google just announced an API for PowerMeter http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2010/03/google-powermeter-api-introduced-for.html , so Adafruit's Tweet-a-Watt can brag to your followers about your home efficiency. http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/03/04/google-code-blog-google-powermeter-api-introduced-for-device-manufacturers/

Handy for DEA...

[couchslug]

Now the Man can monitor consumption and infer when a weed growing operation is up and running.

Note electricity consumption, cruise by with thermal cameras to verify, profit!

Re:Handy for DEA...

[Hatman39]

Well, they've been doing that for god knows how long, but not in the way you think. You see, most weed groweries bypass the meter so they don't have to pay gargantuan energy bills. So, instead the power company looks at the discrepancy between billing and consumption at the block level. If a large enough discrepancy is noted, i.e. something big, they inform the DEA. Note: I assume they do it like this in the USA, as this is how many countries (including my own) do it.

Re:Handy for DEA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if LED lights are used...

Re:Handy for DEA...

[Lumpy]

But that was with the old way of using Metal Halide that you needed 10 1000 watt lamps to grow with. Now with flouresent and LED setups you dont need a whole lot more.

No I dont grow pot. I have a reef tank. Seeing my energy bill drop by $100.00 a month by switching to LED and FLouresent new tech fro mthe Metal halides I was using was really nice. It also has a side benefit of my corals are doing WAY better and I dont need to run a chiller anymore.

Re:Handy for DEA...

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought you said you didn't grow reefer?

Re:Handy for DEA...

[Jarik C-Bol]

wow, you caused me to google reef tanks. you have an impressive hobby.

Re:Handy for DEA...

[mcgrew]

You see, most weed groweries bypass the meter so they don't have to pay gargantuan energy bills.

I doubt that; I've known several people who grew pot, and none of them bypassed the meter. Plus, they discovered a far more efficient way of lighting that uses about a fourth as much electricty and little heat, keeping their electric as well as heat signature footprints low.

If a large enough discrepancy is noted, i.e. something big, they inform the DEA. Note: I assume they do it like this in the USA, as this is how many countries (including my own) do it.

I didn't know the DEA was enforcing US law in other countries. What country do you live in?

Re:Handy for DEA...

[SimonGhent]

You see, most weed groweries bypass the meter so they don't have to pay gargantuan energy bills.

I doubt that; I've known several people who grew pot, and none of them bypassed the meter.

I think what the OP was talking about was the more commercial end of the market, rather than an individual growing for their own use.

What tends to happen is people take over (rent) a property and remove the internal walls, black out the windows and set up large growing operations, bypassing the meter. There was a disused shop near me (in the UK) where this happened... twice in six months!

Re:Handy for DEA...

[Njoyda Sauce]

wow, you caused me to google reef tanks. you have an impressive hobby.

Would a Reefer tank be the best of both worlds?

Re:Handy for DEA...

[tbuskey]

I wonder how often they crash a veggie grower's seedlings.

I have a few racks of lights and over 50 tomato seedlings growing on a heating mat.

Re:Handy for DEA...

[NeoSkandranon]

That's interesting; I didn't know LED had the intensity for reef usage.

Re:Handy for DEA...

[blackchiney]

You buy the LEDs for the specific frequencies you need, notably red and blue. All other colors are filtered out by the chlorophyll in the algae of the polyps.

BTW our eyesight is more sensitive to green, so those other 2 colors would look dim to us if power was equal between RGB LEDs.

Re:Handy for DEA...

[GungaDan]

"I didn't know the DEA was enforcing US law in other countries."

Really? You didn't know this? The DEA is active throughout Central and South America, most often in cooperation with governments there, but sometimes on its own. They're sort of continuing the CIA's dirty business in the region left over from the 70s and 80s.

Re:Handy for DEA...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like some amazing lucre...

Re:Handy for DEA...

[NeoSkandranon]

That makes sense, given that LED (terrestrial) grow lights are pretty purple (or deep red or deep blue)

I guess then it's commonplace to run a full spectrum fluorescent alongside those for viewing?

Re:Handy for DEA...

[dissy]

Well, they've been doing that for god knows how long, but not in the way you think. You see, most weed groweries bypass the meter so they don't have to pay gargantuan energy bills. So, instead the power company looks at the discrepancy between billing and consumption at the block level. If a large enough discrepancy is noted, i.e. something big, they inform the DEA. Note: I assume they do it like this in the USA, as this is how many countries (including my own) do it.

They also inform the local police at some point in the process as well.

I found this out when a sheriff came to my door about this exact thing.
Except in my case, I just brought online some Sun RSM 2000 disk array cabinets in my basement.

I had to get a second power run from the electric company for a second 100 amp mains line.
Apparently the left hand of AEP wasn't talking to the left hand, who was definitely talking to the police.

I was never accused of stealing power, or even using too much power. He said they report the usage increase.

I would assume they already went by with thermal cameras from the sky and all that before hand.
I guess I should be thankful the 'server room' was not on the second floor and venting through the attic ;}

Re:Handy for DEA...

[mcgrew]

That sounds logical, the people I knew never used more than a single room for their growing.

Re:Handy for DEA...

[Darinbob]

I've got some great pictures of what was found in a home while installing smart meters, and seeing the meter slot bypassed. Rats nest of wiring, high watt lamps every, fans to keep things cool, a wall covered with outlets and timers and transformers, and plants in every room. Recreating a farm inside a suburban home (without the use of Facebook).

If you're really stealing electricity you probably want some nominal usage now and then to keep up appearances, which didn't seem possible with this setup. But if the home is listed at the utility as unoccupied then it wouldn't be monitored.

Re:Handy for DEA...

[noidentity]

Now with flouresent and LED setups you dont need a whole lot more.

I tried flouresent lamps once, but I kept getting rats. Maybe if I tried corn or rice flour...

Totally not evil

[Anonymous Coward]

Prying on every aspect of your life is not evil, because Google says 'do no evil', right?

Re:Totally not evil

[selven]

Has it become fashionable to not even read TFS now? It specifically says "opt in service", ie. if you find the intrusion of privacy unacceptable, you don't have to sign up. There is NOTHING morally wrong about any of this.

Re:Totally not evil

[Vintermann]

Has it become fashionable to not even read TFS now?

You must be new here.

Re:Totally not evil

[Talderas]

Yes, but then everyone around you knows that you didn't. Why didn't you opt in? Didn't want to show how much you don't care about the environment?

Fuck the greens.

Re:Totally not evil

[N1AK]

Prying on every aspect of your life

Offering someone a service, which they are free to refuse I haven't heard lately...

Re:Totally not evil

[dyingtolive]

That's the argument made with Facebook. Doesn't mean that damn near everyone on the planet is willfully jumping all over the chance to hand over their entire lives.

Re:Totally not evil

[Anonymous Coward]

There, there. It will be OK. You can trust Google. They pulled out of China, didn't they?

Re:Totally not evil

[selven]

Damn near everyone on the planet? I know that the number of people talking on Facebook exceeds the number of people talking about how they don't use it, and talking on Facebook is a social activity, so it does seem that Facebook is popular (compare Windows where using it is a solitary activity, so Windows seems very unpopular). However, there are lots of people not using Facebook - you can count me in that group, and privacy is one of my reasons against using it.

already exists

[flok]

Such a thing (on-line electricity meter) already exists: Flukso

Linux-based with wifi uplink to the net and ethernet to configure it. Handles internet-connection downtime gracefully. Completely open so that you can tweak it if you wish to.

Re:already exists

[jittles]

I've been wanting something like a Flukso but it says that they log the results on their server. Is there any way to redirect this and log your own stats on your own server?

Re:already exists

[characterZer0]

Transparent proxy.

Re:already exists

[flok]

Yes, you can.

See my website: Making your Flukso log to a database/RRD tool

Re:already exists

[jlp2097]

These devices are starting to get common in Europe (and maybe elsewehere) - they are called smart meters. They will be required for a smart grid which in turn is presumed to be required for mass deployment of electric cars. These devices are neither new nor did google invent something that hasn't existed before.

Re:already exists

[jittles]

Thank you sir. I wish I could mod your reply up to the informative level now. I'll look into this.

Re:already exists

[queBurro]

FYI - checkout http://www.pachube.com/ and current cost meters http://www.currentcost.com/products.html

Re:already exists

[Rallias Ubernerd]

Uses a heck of alot of electricity.

Re:already exists

[Grizzley9]

While nice, I'd really like it to monitor my circuit breaker box so I can see where the energy is being used per circuit and adjust accordingly. Perhaps my Fridge is using a lot more than normal or more than the avg, send me an alert that it may need a service call or time to replace. Water heater, AC, etc. Are the lights being left on in the kid's rooms overly long or are my outside lights staying on too long, how much is that tv usage costing me, etc.

More of a smart home, than just a smart meter for overall usage where it could be difficult to pin down changing usage.

Re:already exists

[Wisconsingod]

Try This.... http://www.instructables.com/id/Real_time_Web_Based_Household_Power_Usage_Monitor/

Combined with this.... http://www.instructables.com/id/2-Carabiner-split-core-AC-transducer/

And you've got it.

Re:already exists

[Anonymous Coward]

Flukso doesn't tell you that this thing is WORTHLESS for tracking normal amounts of current. I looked into doing this exact thing, albeit with the TINI. The thing that goes around your power cable - the "current transformer" - is only accurate if you are consuming > 30% of its rated value. So for example, my main breaker is 200A. If I install a 200A current transformer, it is only accurate if I am drawing more than 60 amps. So it's only accurate if I'm drying clothes, running two microwaves and an air compressor, and cooking something. If you downrate the current transformer - install a 100A transformer in a 200A breaker box - then you WILL have a fire in your breaker box at Thanksgiving when you're baking, cooking on the stove, running microwaves, etc. and drawing more than 100A.

Re:already exists

[Darinbob]

I think Google is concerned about in-home devices, such as Zigbee based devices that communicate with the smart meters.

Re:already exists

[cffrost]

Making your Flukso log to a database/RRD tool

Hereby called a Flokso configuration.

Already possible

[TSchut]

There already exist devices which allow you to monitor your energy consumption by monitoring the dials in your meter box. For instance the dutch http://www.enymate.nl/artikelen/enymate_lite.

Because this measures consumption by looking at the dial it is also possible to monitor gas and water consumption, and the measurements relate directly to the upcoming bill(s).

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with the linked company.

Just don't require a video

[jjackalb]

As long as the "details of electricity" don't include a video, we're good.

ads

[danny_lehman]

they'll find a way to dynamically alter the ads we're shown using this thing now too

Re:ads

[AnswerIs42]

Google is not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. There will be money to be made by them with this. Think of all the usage information they can gather up on people, they will know when you are home and when you are the most active. Information they can resell to advertisers and others.

Opt-in?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing it's opt-in, and Google doesn't install power monitoring devices on all of our appliances by default.

Want to check your consumption?

[Viol8]

Check your electricity meter.

Check it again the next day.

Subtract the 2 values.

Really , is this so difficult for some people that they need a gadget to do it for them?

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

I'm sorry, I'm a typical computer programmer. I was told there would be no math.

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[kaigoh]

Its not hard to do the maths, I'm just incredibly lazy...

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[TSchut]

No, that's not hard. However, I suppose you want a finer grained time resolution, like 5 minutes or so. Otherwise it would be practically impossible to determine which apparatus is causing more-than-normal energy consumption.

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[Lumpy]

Actually yes. because your power meter is too inaccurate at small reading to give me a difference in 15 minutes. and when you are chasing down parasitic loads it's important.

I use the TED5000 (The Energy Detective) works great, is dirt cheap, and gives me an energy data aggregate that is killer in every way. Plus having a Dollar amount in our faces on the counter every minute of the day really makes you pay attention to leaving the basement lights on all day.

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[nschubach]

That's what technology is for... so you don't have to do it yourself the hard way.

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[Grizzley9]

Yeah, I'd rather have circuit by circuit monitoring. That way you have the big items with their own usage chart.

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[Nyder]

Check your electricity meter.

Check it again the next day.

Subtract the 2 values.

Really , is this so difficult for some people that they need a gadget to do it for them?

I live in an apartment, so ya, it's hard for me to get to the electricty meter every day. I'd probably have to find the manager, ask him to take me to it, give him good enough reason why I want to access it everyday. Get denied.

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[Viol8]

"which apparatus is causing more-than-normal energy consumption."

Hint - it'll be one of the big ones. Switch them off in turn and you'll find out. Unless you have 10 TVs and a dozen washing machines
it won't take long.

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[delinear]

It would also be a massive PITA if you wanted to track usage over a certain period of time, or the variation between seasons, or year-on-year usage, a service like this makes such data storage and calculations much more efficient (sure, we could all store the data and do the calculations and draw the graphs ourselves but it's much more efficient if a handful of people have already done this and then provide a tool to let everyone else benefit from their labours).

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[silverglade00]

Unless you have 10 TVs and a dozen washing machines it won't take long.

I live in a sports bar/laundromat, you insensitive clod!

Re:Want to check your consumption?

[Darinbob]

But if you want to see more detailed usage, it can get pretty annoying running outside in the rain with a flashlight to keep logging new data every few minutes.

If we sign up, can we see Google's energy data?

[codeAlDente]

Seriously, how much energy do they use? Why won't they tell us? Sounds evil.

As long as...

[Eth1csGrad1ent]

...they don't run the site like this http://www.youtube.com/

(ps. If youtube's main page no longer looks like Http/1.1 Service Unavailable then this gag is past its usefulness)

Doesn't Google want togo into power trading?

[anonymous cupboard]

I seem to remember that elsewhere it was said that Google wanted to enter the power market. They are a pretty big consumer themselves and are apparently looking to be a supplier but as yet, are not a producer.

Energy trading is a complex game. Perhaps they hope to get a better advantage by themselves getting better knowledge of how much power people are busing and when.

Re:Doesn't Google want togo into power trading?

[Anonymous Coward]

Glad someone else pointed out the obvious - the title should actually be:

"Google Wants To Be Your Electricity Provider"

Electricity is increasingly a commodity supplied by wholesalers, with whoever owns the metering, collecting the end-users cash. Nothing against effective metering either, however, this remains only as useful as the input data, until such time as devices report their own individual usage, this is all broad across the mains measuring stuff. It remains a surprise to most people that they already have a readable meter, my best guess would be that less than 5% know how to read one. That both Google (and MS..) are in this for philanthropical purposes as suggested, puleese, wanna buy a bridge while youre at it?

Re:Doesn't Google want togo into power trading?

[beakerMeep]

Don't they supply a lot of their own power? This could be something as simple as them trying to export tech they wrote for themselves in their data centers to monitor power usage to the masses. Throw a bit of advertising on there and they have made a piece of software written for their data centers provide additional revenue (in addition to whatever it helps them save by monitoring their own network). Why does it always have to seem nefarious? Seems like a simple re-purposing of a product to me. Seems smart too.

Re:Doesn't Google want togo into power trading?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2010/02/19/feds-approve-googles-move-into-energy-markets/

"..The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) has approved Google’s move into the energy market.

In December, the Internet giant’s subsidiary, Google Energy, requested market-based rate authority and approval to sell energy, capacity and ancillary services.

Google Energy does not own or control wholesale electric generation or transmission facilities, nor does it have a franchised service area to sell electricity.

However, Google Energy intends to act as a power marketer by purchasing electricity and reselling it to wholesale customers.."

- the above random hit was brought to you courtesy of Philanthropy?MyAss!Inc. (Mountain View)

Re:Doesn't Google want togo into power trading?

[Anonymous Coward]

I had to parse your headline a couple of times before I realised you meant "to go" and not that Google was somehow keen on getting the nation of Togo into power trading.

Re:Doesn't Google want togo into power trading?

[Anonymous Coward]

Very interesting remark, hadn't heard about those power producing ideas yet.

In 20 years there will be only one company left in the world if they play the global corporate chessboard smart enough ;o

Re:Doesn't Google want togo into power trading?

[anonymous cupboard]

They don't have a power generation capability (last time I looked). They also don't have any consumers other than their own data centers. This actually puts them into a difficult position whereby they can be squeezed either side of the market.

Google makes it sound cute

[AHuxley]

To see what it looks like in plain english try the Australian version of this :
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/etsa-plans-to-take-control/story-e6freo8c-1225697720719
.."added that people who did not take this option might find they would lose all power when power demand was running at peak levels."
Why invest in fancy new power generation when you can ration a rust belt power network and tame the end user with gift of lower cost if they get chipped.
Do you want Google and Enron ver 2.0 telling you when you can run your tv or cool your home?

Re:Google makes it sound cute

[gtbritishskull]

Actually, yes I do. Throughout the day the cost of power varies widely. At night it is dirt cheap (because it is produced at a coal or nuclear or hydro power plant) but during the day more plants have to be brought online and shut down as the load varies. That makes it very expensive at some times during the day. For residential consumers, this just gets averaged and they get pretty much a flat rate (some places have a time based tier system). But, if I got charged the current price for power, and could have my house decrease or increase power consumption based upon that price, then my cost would go down, and the total cost of the power grid would go down (because the load is more stable). I don't think they should have the ability to force me to turn off any appliance, but it would be good for the whole system if you let the free market determine the price of power through consumers setting their own limits of which appliances can be running at different price points.

Re:Google makes it sound cute

[Anonymous Coward]

At night it is dirt cheap (because it is produced at a coal or nuclear or hydro power plant) but during the day more plants have to be brought online and shut down as the load varies.

Wrong.

Power plants are not brought online and shut down during the day to meet varying load requirements. Commercial power plants take time to cycle up. Its not like throwing a switch. Some types of plants can increase / decrease power production on relatively short notice, but they are still online. That is why power is cheaper at night. It isn't practical to stop producing at night, so supply exceeds demand for several hours each day.

Wrong wrong wrong

[DNS-and-BIND]

"It wants to do this so that it can show people on their iGoogle homepages when and where they are consuming energy so that they can start to reduce their power consumption."
Wrong, wrong, a thousand times wrong. Google is an advertising company. How the heck is an advertising company doing this?

"The good news is that it is an opt-in service and free so you don't have to make Google your energy-monitor if you dont't want to do so."
Well, isn't that nice of Google! I don't have to let them monitor my energy usage if I don't want to! Thanks for that, faceless corporation.

Re:Wrong wrong wrong

[nschubach]

Um... what qualifies Mitsubishi the ability to make TVs and cars! They can't do that because they have to pick a market!

Re:Wrong wrong wrong

[gtbritishskull]

Google is an advertising company that maintains its audience by providing a service (a search engine). In case you haven't noticed, Google also provides many other services that allow them to maintain their audience (gmail, wave, voice, ect). This is just another service they are providing that will allow them to get a bigger audience. It will also let them target an audience (environmental people) which means the worth of their advertising space goes up.

Re:Wrong wrong wrong

[D Ninja]

Wrong, wrong, a thousand times wrong. Google is an advertising company. How the heck is an advertising company doing this?

Hate to break it to you, but most companies (of any size) do not just do one thing. Google is primarily an advertising company, but they do a lot more. And, if you think this is bad, don't go reading about PepsiCo (food), Disney (entertainment), Exxon (oil), or any other companies that you may think have only one market. You're in for a shock.

DEA will be the last of our worries

[Shivetya]

the new folks at the EPA are seeing all sorts of new ways to leverage laws at their disposal to expand into areas where they don't belong. Believe it, when they find out that they can monitor with this much ease they will. We already have regulations against incandescent bulbs, how long before we have legislation against exceeding government defined thresholds for healing and cooling one's home? After all, just because you can afford below 78 in the summer doesn't mean you should be allowed to, think of the environment, think of the children.

I love some of the new technology out there, the problem is we are being forced into a nanny state, one where people want everything given to them and that old saying ain't far off, if they can provide it all they can take it all; or monitor it all.

Google's Real Motives

[SovBob]

This makes sense when you consider Google and their relentless pursuit of reducing their energy bill.

A lot of people have no idea how much electricity they are consuming, except at the end of the month. Increasing awareness will encourage people to turn off unused lights in their house (and get the instant gratification of seeing the electricity consumption graph go down on their homepage). This serves a dual purpose. Cutting down on consumption will mean a surplus of electricity, which lowers the price. Google gets cheaper electricity, and it also helps the environment.

I don't think Google is particularly interested in selling your electric power consumption data, although they might want to look at large-scale statistical data for their own research.

Re:Google's Real Motives

[Yvan256]

Yeah, but why does Google need so much electricity in the first place? Enough to want every American citizen to lower their electric usage?

I'll tell you why: Google are building a freakin' giant laser, that's why! They plan on attacking Planet Q42 with it!

Re:Google's Real Motives

[QuantumRiff]

It would also give you almost instant feedback of what is consuming the most power in your home. You could get a Kill-A-Watt meter, but how are you going to plug your furnace blower into it? Just cut the power to the blower, and see how much your power drops over the next 5 min. Same with other things that are difficult to measure or reach, like lighting, and ceiling fans. As you turn on/off items, you will see how it affects your power bill.

Good news?

[shish]

The good news is that it is an opt-in service and free so you don't have to make Google your energy-monitor if you dont't want to do so.

Since when is this news at all? To say that it is would mean that it's different to normal, which implies that google regularly install monitoring hardware into people's homes as an opt-out service...

skeptical

[jonpublic]

Am I the only one who is skeptical of these smart meter devices? I don't want hackers to be shut off my power or anything else.

Re:skeptical

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of idiot would design a power *meter* that can actually shut the power off? Still, not a totally unfair point, considering the world is running a huge surplus of idiots.

Re:skeptical

[18r18r13m]

I don't the government to be able to shut off my power because they say I am using too much. Yep Conspiracy theory, however it has already been proposed in California with smart thermostats.

Re:skeptical

[gtbritishskull]

But, I would like the ability to shut down my power (or different devices based upon the current price of electricity). As with any online system, security is important. If you want to pay the higher power bill from using electricity you don't need, just so you can be positive your electricity won't get turned off by a hacker, then go ahead. You can also unplug your computer from the wall and be positive that your computer won't be hacked (and you can drive to or call the bank every time you need to transfer money instead of doing it online). But some people are willing to deal with the security concerns for the convenience that is provided.

Re:skeptical

[QuantumRiff]

the government would NEVER shut off your power if you were using too much. What kind of world do you think this is? they would simply charge/tax you more for your consumption.

The only reason there are "rolling blackouts" in some places in California is they don't yet have the 2 way meters in place to properly measure peak load, and tax, errr, encourage you.

Don't attribute to Absolute Power what is really just a new revenue opportunity for the states!

Re:skeptical

[Nyder]

Am I the only one who is skeptical of these smart meter devices? I don't want hackers to be shut off my power or anything else.

Why would a hacker waste his time turning your power off?

no, what you are afraid of is some script kiddy, or someone who hates you taht knows how to use google.

thats how you'll lose your power.

the hackers are too busy hacking to give a fuck about you and the others who don't know what a hacker is.

Re:skeptical

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently made submission on this very topic as it is topical in European countries http://slashdot.org/submission/1199372/Government-Enforced-Smart-Metering but it did not get actually published. The current trend is that meter salesmen are lobbying politicians into forcing people to buy this. Privacy and security issues are glossed over, and there is no real evidence that you could achieve similar savings by simply following the procedures that other people have told are reducing energy consumption.

Re:skeptical

[Wisconsingod]

Apple...They didn't design it, but they sure support it.. http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/schlage-link/id304152695?mt=8

Re:skeptical

[swillden]

Am I the only one who is skeptical of these smart meter devices? I don't want hackers to be shut off my power or anything else.

The meters just clamp a detector around your main. They have no ability to shut off or modify your power.

Re:skeptical

[Friday]

The meters just clamp a detector around your main. They have no ability to shut off or modify your power.

Wrong. Cellnet's disconnect solution and Itron's CENTRON meter with disconnect capabilities and load limiting. Here's another solution from Aclara. There's more, but I got lazy grabbing URL's.

Re:skeptical

[swillden]

Okay. So if you're concerned about that, only buy and install a monitor which has no disconnect or load limiting capabilities. The models I've looked at are strictly monitor-only.

Re:skeptical

[Friday]

Okay. So if you're concerned about that, only buy and install a monitor which has no disconnect or load limiting capabilities.

I guess the point really is that you don't get a choice. Your electric company decides what type of meter gets installed on the side of your house and what capabilities it has.

Re:skeptical

[fast turtle]

and after suffering another 4+ hour outage due to some idiot hitting a pole yesterday along with rolling blackouts because of an aging infrastructure, I've decided to go completely Solar and off the grid. This way I will have power when everyone else doesn't and can continue running my refrigerators, computers, lights, heating and cooling all year w/o worry.

Re:skeptical

[swillden]

Okay. So if you're concerned about that, only buy and install a monitor which has no disconnect or load limiting capabilities.

I guess the point really is that you don't get a choice. Your electric company decides what type of meter gets installed on the side of your house and what capabilities it has.

I suppose in some cases. Personally, I've been looking into buying my own and installing it myself. There are several options with nice displays and the ability to push the data to Google's system (if you want) for $100-200. I expect that I could make such a system pay for itself in a year or so, just by using the data to identify how I can better manage my power consumption.

Re:skeptical

[robot256]

Sorry, but this service does not justify that kind of paranoia. Most devices you can use with it are not devices that control power flow; they merely measure it.

Smart power meters like Google is targeting are just that--METERS. For example the TED5000 uses non-invasive current probes that clip onto your power wires and inductively measure the current that is flowing. It then uploads the current data to Google Power Meter where it keeps a trend log you can view from anywhere, which is a legitimate service. The TED5000 itself keeps an internal log, but is not as detailed. It is physically impossible for the TED5000 to interrupt or otherwise impede the flow of electricity into your home--such a device would be large and expensive.

Smart appliances, on the other hand, are IP-enabled refrigerators, air conditioners, etc, that read information from the smart meter and make operating decisions based on it. Google probably wants to encourage smart appliances too, but this app only has to deal with the smart meters at the moment.

So using Google Power Meter with a non-invasive smart meter does not make you vulnerable to control by hackers. The only way you could have a device to shut power off remotely would if it were installed by the utility company or else be a smart appliance you installed yourself.

Re:skeptical

[robot256]

But that's only the utility side. The current-clamp meters people are talking about are user-installed secondary meters--they are added in addition to the utility meter purely for your own information. Sure, the utility can decide to screw you if they want and install a limit/disconnect, but that's not Google's fault.

Re:skeptical

[dissy]

Am I the only one who is skeptical of these smart meter devices? I don't want hackers to be shut off my power or anything else.

Hackers can already do that now however. Instead of a computer, they just use wire cutters.
Seeing as both need physical access to do...

Re:DEA will be the last of our worries

[Talderas]

Bah, they'll use your children and your neighbors to pressure you in to behaving in their pre-approved way, and damn your freedom.

Don't call me, I'll call you

[Anonymous Coward]

Just let me know when it's opt-out. I don't want anything to do with Google's data gathering.

We don't do meters in this country

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the USA, we don't do any of them metric units. So it wouldn't be meters of electricity, it would be a good old american measure, like BTU

Re:We don't do meters in this country

[richard.cs]

This is the USA, we don't do any of them metric units. So it wouldn't be meters of electricity, it would be a good old american measure, like BTU [emphasis added]

BTU as in British Thermal Unit? It's a unit of energy so you can measure your electricity consumption in it if you want. It'd be a bit inconvenient to calculate expected use unless all your appliances state consumption in BTU per fortnight or something.

Re:We don't do meters in this country

[GigG]

Mod Parent -1 Swoosh

Mod Grandparent +1 Funny

More detail

[Anonymous Coward]

They better show which jack and/or which app. consume how much money worth of electricity.

Call me paranoid and a tool

[santax]

But sometimes I think google is just another way to say NSA.

Google Toilet Paper

[alex-tokar]

New Google sewage flush meter coming to a home near you next year.

Re:Google Toilet Paper

[Cornwallis]

I seem to recall Al Hamel doing the flush meter thing on Canadian TV decades ago...

more to do with Telecom

[z_gringo]

I think that all of google's noisemaking in the utilities area has very little to do with power and power consumption, and everything to do with Telecommunications. There was an announcment recently that Google was entering the Electric Utility business. Everyone was saying that google would be an electricity provider before long, but this probably has more to do with accessing the utlitiy easments for fiber than anything else. Google has made it clear that they intend to be a serious player in Telecoms very soon. All the noise about utilities is probably really all about Telecoms.

Is there anything

[Compaqt]

that Google doesn't want to do?

Next:

Google Lawyer ("I AM a lawyer!")
Google Web-medicine (get some of that Health Care bill gravy)
Google electric car
Google Skynet

Re:Is there anything

[Anonymous Coward]

that Google doesn't want to do?

Next:

Google Lawyer ("I AM a lawyer!")
Google Web-medicine (get some of that Health Care bill gravy)
Google electric car
Google S

#$#!~~.~CONNECTION LOST~~@@~_~

PopSci Magazine ?Apr 2009

[Rallias Ubernerd]

We've known this for a while, those who actually care to read.

Googleborg!

[Anonymous Coward]

Resistance is futile. You will be assimigoogled.

A new service soon! Electrad - send your ads to your customers directly through the electricity grid! Only through Google!

gOOgle is watching you

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not.. they know everything else about me.
Even when I post Anonymously Google knows...

It is those two frigin' big eyes... gOOgle....they are watching you right now!

Chip to make integration easier

[us7892]

Google already partnered with some utilities, and a few device makers (about 7 months ago). Most utilities are slow to provide opt-in to their customers. But anyone can install and watch their whole house power and consumption.

For example, the TED installs at your house main. It happens to send data to Google PowerMeter in the cloud (an App Engine application it seems.)

Right now, it is only one-way. Simply provides monitoring. Nothing can be controlled. You see your 10-minute average power in an iGoogle Gadget. As well as weekly and monthly total consumption, with a couple basic comparisons. In fact, the TED had an API, so anyone can read the second-by-second power readings and build your own charting application, or load a spreadsheet, or use the built-in browser to see gauges of power, etc. So, to make it easier for device manufactures to provide usage data (probably not just electric, but gas and water as well), why not a chip that can be embedded into your device designs.

For those who have not seen Google PowerMeter, tinypic sample here.

OLD NEWS

[Logical Zebra]

Wow, this is old news. Seriously, this was discussed over a year ago. In fact, I submitted this story to Slashdot way back then, but it was rejected. No Slashdot love for the Zebra. :-(

Almost. Google is the NSA's IT Department

[RobotRunAmok]

And like all IT Departments, they are passive-aggressive-sneaky. The actual manly heavy-lifting work of enforcement and arrest they leave to the guys in crewcuts and narrow ties.

Power level

[VGPowerlord]

So, now Google will be able to tell that my power level is over 9000!?

Re:Power level

[robot256]

Over 9000 is a lot of power. Surely after getting google meter you will be able to reduce it and save money!

Subscription service :(

[Anonymous Coward]

Already got an OWL energy meter in my place and its great, only thing about it is it doesn't offer a history just a current usage. They do offer a USB device for recording but it uses proprietary software which is just about unusable.

Would love to find a device that is capable of more, the ones linked from the google homepage are subscription services unfortunately.

Been in the UK a While

[consultant]

AlertMe have been doing this with Google for a while now. http://www.alertme.com/products/alertme-energy/

Rumour has it that they may be setting up operations in the USA too soon.

If doing pre school subtraction is the hard way...

[Viol8]

..there really is no hope for you.

Just turn it off

[cdrguru]

Somehow, some rather strange people seem to think that with increased used of technology (as compared to, say, 1950) and a growing population that some sort of "conservation" is going to allow the US to keep going without building new base-load generating plants. We haven't built a major plant in decades and there are some plans but nothing being built now. Most of the plans have a huge gap of years in them already for "environment". So we aren't going to be getting anything new for a while.

Florida has had little gadgets on people's homes for a long time now. What they do is allow the power company to turn off the air conditioner and other heavy loads when they are running out of capacity. So people learn pretty quickly that the air conditioner (in 90F with 90% humidity) isn't something you can rely on. I would expect we will start seeing this everywhere soon.

Sure wind and solar are fun, but the biggest residential loads occur 5-8PM. Not much sun then, anywhere. Wind? Well, in most places it comes and it goes, so you can't rely on it. And there is this little problem with transmission lines. If you can't build a power plant in one place and make big hills around it so people can't see it, how do you think people react to the idea of a toxic, poisonous, cancer-causing power line? Of course, we have lots of scientists that can prove there are no harmful effects of power lines - except the very same news services then trot out some eviro-wacko to show how people within miles of some transmission line suddenly all got cancer, autism, impotence or some other dread disease.

So you can forget about building new transmission lines whether they are "smart" or not. It isn't happening until the enviro-wackery has passed.

We aren't going to "conserve" our way out of this mess. We can try passing the load off somewhere else by moving factories to China. But increasing population through immigration will eventually mean that we aren't going to be able to rely on a continuous supply of electricity in the US. No amount of "conservation" is going to change that.

Re:Just turn it off

[Black Gold Alchemist]

Conservation includes the word CON for a reason.

What kind of power meters?

[Orange Crush]

Are they doing house-wide meters, or individual outlet/appliance meters? Or both? Even having a whole-house meter logged like this would be terribly useful, my local power company does this to some degree, but they don't make the data easily exportable for more in-depth analysis--and if you want to do an hour-by-hour chart--forget about it.

Unfortunately, I doubt my power company will be rolling out Google-compatible household meters to everyone in the near term.

Nevermind, much cheaper & easier than I though

[Orange Crush]

Sorry to reply to my own comment, but I saw this in another comment on this article: http://www.theenergydetective.com/what/install.html

Much less involved than replacing the utility meter! The TED500 has been added to my shopping list & is compatible w/ Google Power.

Re:If doing pre school subtraction is the hard way

[nschubach]

Sprinkle in a dash of sarcasm and a touch of humor. Blend that all in a bowl of angst.

Didn't realize I had to have an energy monitor

[bryan1945]

"Good news is that it is an opt-in service, so you don't have to use iGoogle as you energy monitor."

I thought my electric company did this pretty accurately, though they tend to charge more. Either I've missed something really big or the wording was badly phrased. Especially the part where it implies you have to have some type of personal energy monitor for your home.

Not SO different.

[sean.peters]

I use MS-Hohm, and the purpose of it is the same as the Google offering - but instead of connecting to a smart meter, it wants to interface with your power company's billing system somehow. Unfortunately, neither my electric nor gas utility is affiliated with MS, so I have to pound in all my usage data by hand (easier than it sounds, but still more work than I'd like). You still do get a pretty good idea of your energy usage, but it's at the monthly level. The Google thing sounds like you'd get info in real time. But they are similar in principle - both are trying to get you information on energy usage, to help you figure out how to reduce it.

I hear Sergey is a common name in LATVERIA.

[Anonymous Coward]

Google is run by James Bond movie villains in the making.

The point is standardization

[DCFusor]

So I don't have to write all kinds of drivers for each new thing. At a whole house level, this isn't that useful. But I'm on solar power here and knowing when remote loads (like the freezer in the outbuilding) is running is good, and knowing when somehow my "vampire loads" have ramped up at night -- what's causing that battery drain, is very good and extremely useful. As it is, my Xantrex stuff tells me some things on a proprietary layer over a CAN bus. Pain in the....you know and that's only whole house stuff. Would be a lot nicer to use a cheap MicroChip part all over and by circuit, sometimes even by device, and only have to write one set of code to talk to all of it. The standard is a big benefit to me going forward. I don't care about sending data to Google one way or the other -- I want to know myself as part of my job as "the power company" on my campus. I use microchip's PIC controllers all the time and like them a lot, so I'm glad they got with someone who has a clue (which can be interpreted from either side just as well).

It's wrong because it's Gilliam's Brazil

[Philip K Dickhead]

Central Services.

I warned you all about Google and this stuff for years, now.

TOTALLY LOL at google

[Anonymous Coward]

I can highly recommend a new slogan for them:

"Don't be a hypocrit".

Try asking google what their power consumption is LOL.

Do it yourself with Tweet-a-Watt

[Qubit]

http://www.ladyada.net/make/tweetawatt/

"My plan is to have each room connected to a 6-outlet power strip which powers all the devices in that room (each kill-a-watt can measure up to 15A, or about 1800W, which is plenty!). That way I can track room-by-room usage, for example "kitchen", "bedroom", "workbench", and "office"."

Get a kit with the guts of the project for $90 here (currently on back-order):
http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=32&products_id=143

Then you'll need a Kill-a-Watt meter (Get one from Amazon.com w/free shipping for $20).

You can have it upload data to pretty much any web service you want -- or just keep it in a local database, if that's how you roll.

it's a floor polish and a dessert topping

[Thud457]

Google is your friend, citizen.
Google just wants to make you happy.

The folks at Google have gotten so caught-up...

[hallux.sinister]

in whether or not the could, that they didn't consider whether or not they should... consequently, Google begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug...
Google: where your privacy went to die.