Chinese Reactions To Google Leaving China

I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "Most people have already heard western media reactions to Google leaving China proper and redirecting search traffic to its Hong Kong branch, but ChinaSMACK has translated comments from average Chinese internet users so that non-Chinese can understand how the Chinese public feels. While many of them are supportive of the government on some level, they were able to obtain many comments by those critical of the government before they could be 'harmonized' (deleted) and translated those as well. The deleted comments often complain about the wumao (50 cent party), government employees who are paid 50 cents RMB per post supporting the government, and worry that the Chinese Internet will become a Chinese LAN."

Comments

What is the atmosphere inside China?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

It's fine to get reports of what's going on inside China from bloggers and news sources that have a vested interest in painting China in the worst light possible. But from my experience with mainland Chinese, they are for the most part satisfied with their government's actions.

If all you are ever fed is McDonald's and no one ever tells you about anything else, your view of food is severely limited. This works both ways in the case of China.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[francium de neobie]

Opinion about the government is not a singular YES/NO boolean flag. It's entirely possible that the Chinese people generally likes the economic progress the government has brought, but doesn't like the censorship so much.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[iCantSpell]

Your perception is all you will ever see.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[CxDoo]

So you're saying McDonald's is not going to pull out of China because they'd all starve?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

As hard as it may seem to grasp this concept, there are people who hold their beliefs very closely yet hold beliefs that are diametrically opposed to you.

Take the U.S. as a prime example. For what many Europeans take as incomprehensible, the nearly violent antipathy of many Americans towards national health care, these Americans feel strongly that it is in their (and their country's) best interest to not have such a system.

In China, the censorship is perhaps seen as a good thing, to "protect the children" or other public policy reason. With only the Western "freedom is everything" cultural viewpoint fed to us, how can we really form a valid opinion either way?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[somersault]

Until you can see your perception. That's what you were going to say, wasn't it?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

>>But from my experience with mainland Chinese, they are for the most part satisfied with their government's actions.

Indeed. My wife (who is Chinese) was born and raised in Hong Kong, and so has no love for mainland China. Probably had something to do with her grandpa getting tortured during the cultural revolution...

She refuses to visit mainland China, so I went by myself. People there are actually very happy with their government, in a sort of "Yeah it's a dictatorship but everything is moving in the right direction" way. They actually like that shit gets done there. Got a shitty village in the way of the interstate? Move. No pissy little lawsuits there to slow things down. And then the interstate is done... in a tenth of the time it would take in America. They actually mocked our gridlock in America.

Anyhow, her aunt and uncle still live in China, and recently moved to mainland China. They're Christian missionaries... oh wait, that's illegal... they're Christians, and they do charity work. If anyone would hate China, it'd be them - father tortured, they could possibly be executed for being Christian... and they approve of the government. Not just "oh well, it's better than Zimbabwe", but they actually think the country is doing well, and will do even better in the future. Sure, there's a few problems, they say, but they'll be fixed in the future.

While most of the Chinese people I talked to were rather ignorant about news (nationally and internationally), pretty much all of them liked the government.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[DNS-and-BIND]

What you're missing is the "wrong" and "right" of the situation. Europeans are right, Americans and Chinese are wrong, in addition to being vulgar and uncivilized. Heck, there are people who call the results of legitimate elections "wrong" because the people voted the "incorrect" way. I wish I was kidding.

Although I am happy to see yet another thread about a totally unrelated subject get turned into the standard "Europeans consider Americans as inexplicably stupid" argument though.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[plasticsquirrel]

This is basically true. I live in China and I have asked my co-workers and several classes of students about it. The adults aren't really surprised by any of it, but that might be a little different among the tech crowd. Some of my students were concerned about Google leaving, as most of them do use Google and prefer it. However, most said they would just use Baidu.

Although they may dislike how things worked out, or disagree with the government's actions, the overall legitimacy of the government is rarely called into question. People are more interested in fixing the problems in their government. The basic reason is that they think the only way to prosper as a country is to work together, like China is a big family including the government, and this mindset is deeply set in many people. It's not all "government vs. the people" everywhere in the world. There are a few people who are pro-democracy advocates, but they are typically pro-everything-western Christians. Most people I have talked to will remark that democracy isn't appropriate for China, and that it is fundamentally different from western countries.

The fact is that people aren't too concerned about issues like this over here. They are too busy living their lives, and the whole Web as they know it is basically different. They don't use YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Blogger, or any of the normal sites. Only around 1% use Wikipedia. It's a totally different game here, where the number of QQ users is larger than the entire U.S. population.

After Google moved to Hong Kong, a teacher asked me about it, and I explained it to her. Then I told her that they moved because the mainland and Hong Kong have different laws. She replied back playfully with, "... maybe. Maybe they do," pretending to look a little nervous, and then laughing playfully. It's not all evil empire stuff over here. People roll their eyes at a lot of it, and everyone knows that the government can't control so much. There are too many people, so it's just like controlled chaos, with aspirations of harmony.

In some ways it's freer than the U.S. because there are so few people to enforce the laws or keep things in check. If a cop is going too slow, cars will honk their horns obnoxiously at him, swerve around him into the oncoming lane to pass him up, and generally just treat him like another asshole on the road. In the U.S., the cops are on your ass just for going through a yellow light too late. The American public is nothing for authorities to fear, but the Chinese public is much bigger and more powerful. In many ways it's difficult to imagine a government like the U.S. has, able to maintain the peace with 1.3 billion people.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[sortius_nod]

It's not just Europeans thinking this...

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[eh2o]

A handful of hate groups can throw enough bricks to get on the news, that does not make them "many Americans".

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[krou]

Well, the BBC has been looking at Chinese reactions, and their opinion is that the Chinese people are very angry. There have been calls for a boycott against Google. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8584985.stm

Comments left on Chinese website sina.com.cn include "Google, out of China" and "Go away, we have Baidu".

Internet and mobile company TOM Online, which is run by Hong Kong's wealthiest man Li Ka-shing, said that it would stop using Google.

The companies have an agreement which will not be renewed, claimed TOM.

A Google spokesperson insisted that the firm would fulfil existing contractual obligations.

"I think Chinese people are offended by Google's action," said BBC journalist Jasmin Gu, who is based in China. "It has aroused nationalistic fervour. Many people choose to stop using Google and support Chinese search engine Baidu."

Also, this article was interesting http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8582556.stm: "There is sharp division between the reactions from Chinese internet users on websites that lie inside and outside Chinese government censorship. The vast majority of the comments and blogs on Chinese mainland websites appear to express hate and anger towards Google. But tweets and comments that appear to come from users in mainland China on websites based outside the country express sympathy and support towards Google, and anger towards the Chinese government."

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[bernywork]

There was another comment about this, yes, it's not just Europe thinking this.

When people (Americans) come overseas and apologise for presidents and the stupid things their country is doing, that's gotta be embarrassing.

People who I know / have met from Australia and New Zealand... (Let's not talk about Canada) ... and a number of people I know scattered across Asia share this belief as well.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[clemdoc]

well, that's cause Americans are inexplicably stupid.

sorry. impossible to resist.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Vintermann]

Attitudes don't form in a vacuum. Your attitudes are come a bit from yourself, and a great deal from the average of attitudes expressed by people around you. When expressions of negative attitudes to government are discouraged and suppressed, and positive ones rewarded (this 50 cent party thing - not something exclusive to China, I'm sure), it will drag up everyone, especially those who like to think that they arrive at their attitudes on their own.
It happens and has happened in much worse places than China (East Germany, Burma). Especially if you are a well-off Chinese, it makes a lot of sense to just "not be interested in politics" and defend the government.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[sopssa]

And more than that, people are offended if other people come telling them how to do things and try to spoon-fed their beliefs and ways. Why do you think religion has caused so much wars and trouble? Forcing something down someones throat never ends up well.

How would USA feel if Russia and their people were to come in and try to change American culture more towards them? Or China or even the French. You wouldn't like it, would you? The same goes both ways.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Angostura]

Luckily, you have the freedom to examine the societal benefits and problems that the "freedom is everything" culture brings with it, while at the same time examining the parallel consequences of a society where the availability of information is centrally controlled.

You also have enough intellectual freedom to know that your prejudices are at least partially due to acculturation.

So, to answer your question - yes, you are in a position to form an informed, and potentially valid opinion. You are also in a position to form an opinion about the ability of a person with only access to the Chinese media and Internet to do so.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

What you're missing is the "wrong" and "right" of the situation. Europeans are right, Americans and Chinese are wrong, in addition to being vulgar and uncivilized.

Lol, mighty confident of yourself aren't you? Kinda funny how easy it is to switch the two groups around in that sentence without contradicting anything else in your post.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Alphathon]

I agree with your first sentence, but your second one not so much. It is a very blanket statement to say that, since morals are not universal, but personal. Some things can pretty much be agreed upon as immoral: murder (note, not simply killing); rape; abuse of power etc. but everything else is entirely based upon circumstance. If you are brought up in a culture where personal possession is meaningless for example, then stealing cannot be considered immoral.

Regardless, I'm not sure that many Americans do think that universal health care would be a bad thing, they just don't want to fund it through their taxes, so don't support it. They likely see it as something along the lines of "if people want health care, they should work to pay for it". It is a very capitalist model, but not necessarily immoral. I myself don't agree with it, and see it as pure selfishness pretty much, but I am a product of my surroundings as well, and having been brought up by fairly liberal parents in the UK (where we have universal heath care) it is almost inevitable that I feel the way I do.

The legitimacy of voting thing; yeah, that's pretty much wrong if you accept democracy as good, but I'm sure that not everyone agrees. It definitely isn't FAIR for hereditary rule etc, but I'm sure there are those that think it's better regardless of the fairness.

as for "Europeans consider Americans as inexplicably stupid". Yeah, we pretty much do, but then we are coming from a background in monarchy (true monarchy I mean, not like the monarchy in the UK) where the "ruling class" had ultimate power, which was partially tied to the church. Therefore we tend to strongly believe in a secular society, and one where the distribution of power is more even. America seems to have lost some of that by being free by default.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

In many ways it's difficult to imagine a government like the U.S. has, able to maintain the peace with 1.3 billion people.

I think its a prosperity issue. That cop on the road in china is as likely to take a bribe to go away as he is to actually ticket or arrest someone. Get the country to the point where bribery is no longer a practical necessity and I think you'll see government enforcement scale quite well to 1+ billion people.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[LordAzuzu]

You know, i've met a lot of people from the U.S. which used to say they were canadians, not americans (while in Europe).

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

the Western "freedom is everything" cultural viewpoint

Let's get real. If freedom was everything, the US government (especially federal) would be 10 times smaller, measured in both revenue and power over the people, than it is today.

To be clear, we are talking about the most expensive, most powerful government AND world empire (with military bases in some 150 countries) in history. Considering that freedom is more or less proportional to the size of government (measured both in revenue and power over the people), the idea tha "freedom is everything" in this country is even more absurd.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[BlackBloq]

How the hell would you ever even know if they are really unhappy when its clearly illegal to even voice any concern. Please, you speak with the utmost ignorance and from the inside (for shame)! That's how the big red wants it! Give me a break! Did you get your 50 cent pay for that post ?! What a joke !

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[mike2R]

That reminds me of something a Chinese friend of mine said once. He said that there is little demand for democracy among ordinary Chinese, but there is a huge wish for accountability. He said people loath corrupt party officials and the like and there is real pressure for reform in that area, but that democracy isn't really seen as relevant to that debate.

That, and a real fear that democracy would lead to instability and even the possibility of civil war, means (according to one affluent, western educated Chinese) that the push for democracy within China is far less than a Westerner might suppose.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

In China, they call food 'Chinese Food'.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[biryokumaru]

*woosh*

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[mapkinase]

"It's fine to get reports of what's going on inside China from bloggers and news sources that have a vested interest in painting China in the worst light possible. But from my experience with mainland Chinese, they are for the most part satisfied with their government's actions."

I am more fascinated by the reaction of first-generation Chinese immigrants many of them continue to be nationalistic after decades of immigration. Even my Taiwanese co-workers have much milder view of the mainland government that your average ./ user.

The history of Han chauvinism did not start with Mao/communism/rifts with US/West/Russia.

The main threat of China to the outside world is not communism, their repression of "human rights" or even their economic expansion. It's their nationalism.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[FudRucker]

economic progress like lead paint on children's toys, poisonous pet food, cheap costume jewelry for teenagers made from cadmium which is a carcinogen, and chinese electronics that are so poorly made that are absolutely shameful, i wonder how much crap gets in that is really bad or poisonous for you that has slipped in without its toxic ingredients being discovered, if you ask me i would embargo chinese made products and have everything with a "made in china" sticker on it sent to a land fill and buried. and tell the USN to shell and sink any cargo ships with chinese made products on sight. (just kidding about the Navy part) but yeah, i would embargo chinese products and make them illegal, maybe after a few years of losing all that commerce with the USA china would pull their head out of their butt and get some quality control inspectors and regulate the crap they throw together and ship over here.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Lumpy]

Of course they are. They learned from the USA that if you keep the populace fat-dumb-and happy by getting them TV then they are "happy" Most americans are very happy with losing most of their freedoms if it makes them think they are safer and entertained....

I'm not trolling, this is a big reason why the government in China gave everyone a huge voucher to go and buy a TV and other entertainment options. If people are given time to think, they will get pissed about what they no longer have. take their thinking time with TV and they are happy....

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Pharmboy]

The problem is Manifest Destiny. Many American Christians truly believe that God® has commissioned us here in the land of milk and honey to spread democracy to the rest of the world. This is why so many have been missionaries over the years, and why our foreign policy is so phucked up. I understand why we might prefer to do business with countries that have some form of representative government, but we can't force China/Cuba/etc to become "democratic" at the end of a gun barrel or by giving them bibles.

If the US would focus more on "freedom" and less on delivering it to other countries, we would be a stronger country. Right now, our freedoms are eroding, our jobs are at risk, our manufacturing base is rusting away, half of our allies stay pissed at us, all due a national self-rightousness that arrogantly assumes that ALL countries should have a form of government just like ours. And yes, I was in the military, as was my father, so I'm not an isolationist or pacifist. I want us to have a strong defense, but the American delusion of Manifest Destiny undermines it.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Chysn]

If all you are ever fed is McDonald's and no one ever tells you about anything else, your view of food is severely limited.

You, sir, have lived up to your handle. Bravo!

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice job stereotyping the citizens of two nations, moron. What rubbish did your parents feed you?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[amRadioHed]

Oh please, people in China speak freely among friends. It's not like everyone has a telescreen watching them in their homes.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[TheKidWho]

Don't be silly. The Chinese actually have a very advanced manufacturing sector. There is nothing inherently wrong with Chinese products, only in the level of quality western companies are usually willing to pay for.

The real problem is the huge discrepancy in currency and living wages between the USA and China.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Ant P.]

What is the atmosphere inside China?

Mostly carbon monoxide.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Attitudes don't form in a vacuum. Your attitudes are come a bit from yourself, and a great deal from the average attitudes by people around you"

I think this is only partially correct. Most Americans seem to form there attitudes from vacuums, or better known as the American education system to the rest of the world.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Krneki]

The whole debate of Communism vs Democracy is bullshit.

What we want is a corruption free politics and the full respect for individual liberty.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[insufflate10mg]

[citation needed]? They really gave everyone a huge voucher to go and buy a TV and other entertainment options?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

"While most of the Chinese people I talked to were rather ignorant about news (nationally and internationally), pretty much all of them liked the government."

Yes, if you remain ignorant of the world around you then your small little world looks just fine....

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you really form a valid opinion ? Let me tell you how you form a valid opinion.

What do you think of a government that after 2 thousand students pacifically demonstrate in a square, unarmed, tell the military to open fire on their own people, sending tanks and all of that to end the demonstration ?

Is that enough of a standard by which you should judge who has the highest cultural position ? Or do you still need the 40 million dead bodies of the "Great Leap Forward" ?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Meneguzzi]

The view I collected from most Chinese I know (which might be slanted since I met most of them in the west) is that they are willing to put up with censorship and all that crap as long as the party keeps providing economic growth. And this is true for most countries, U.S. included, most people won't want to change the system even if it's full of shit, while they have a decent job and can provide for their families. That was why Clinton was always so popular (even if he was one of those responsible for the Bank deregulation and the shit that came with it); Bush was reelected (because the economic woes only started to bite in his second term); and why Bush senior was not reelected (because the effects of Reagonomics started to screw the country, and the tax raises) even though he is one of the few republicans that I respect. And that was why Lyndon Johnson and Jimmy Carter were not reelected regardless of policies that benefitted a large portion of America socially.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, India does !

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Take from this what you will, but I'm a software developer and I worked for a company that has a subsidiary in China. I put together an application to help certain staff members in their day to day jobs and release it to them for testing to see if they were happy with it and report back any bugs.

There was a bug that occured in a certain set of circumstances, and was quite serious in that it caused the user to lose input on the current screen, however it was easy and quick to fix. Anyway, I got a report about it from one of our UK users who encountered it, and looked into it, it was only a side application along the main project so I hadn't been paying much attention to it other than in an ad-hoc manner. As I had now gotten a report, I took the time to look into it and get it fixed, well, looking at the logs, 2 staff members in China had encountered this error 137 times over a period of 3 months, and yet had made no mention, no noise about it whatsoever, even though a quick e-mail to me would've had it fixed for them within a few hours after reporting it the first time it happened.

I was intrigued to know why they'd not said anything so I had a chat with our Chinese subsidiary CEO, who is British but had lived over there for a couple of decades. He tells me that it's simply just the Chinese way, and that it's a common issue he's faced in all his time working over there, that even with such trivial yet infuriating things like this that could easily be fixed they would simply keep quite about and put up with. He told me they simply don't like to raise problems or criticise, they'd rather just sit quietly and put up with it.

It's a personal anecdote, and China is a large country so whether it holds true in general, who knows? But I found it an interesting insight regardless, I've certainly never met anyone who'd be willing to put up with that kind of problem on so many occasions for so long in our Brazilian, South African, American, Indian, Australian, or local European subsidiaries.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[YesDinosaursDidExist]

North Koreans like their government too.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh please, people in China speak freely among friends. It's not like everyone has a telescreen watching them in their homes.

And there have never, not even once, been informers who report to Communist Party handlers when someone has been speaking out against the Party or government. Such a thing is inconceivable.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Shark]

If the US would focus more on "freedom" and less on delivering it to other countries, we would be a stronger country. Right now, our freedoms are eroding, our jobs are at risk, our manufacturing base is rusting away, half of our allies stay pissed at us, all due a national self-rightousness that arrogantly assumes that ALL countries should have a form of government just like ours.

I find it highly encouraging that more and more US citizens are waking up to that fact. And assuming strict adherence to your constitution, I would actually quite welcome your form of government. Honestly, if you guys manage to get your act back together, there wouldn't be any need to enforce it on others anyway. Most would be striving to emulate you guys merely for the prosperity and genuine individual liberty it brings. Until then though, don't loose hope and see if you can inspire a few more of your fellows.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[commodore64_love]

Why should we apologize? I don't see Europe apologizing for the peoples they suppressed in:

- India
- Africa
- Egypt and the Mideast
- Southeast Asia
- China
- South America
- North America

from circa 1400s to 1900s. While the Europeans are correct that Bush did dumb stuff, at least he was only there for 8 years. Europeans did similar suppressive acts for about 500 years. It's a bit hypocritcal. Like a telling people, "Though shalt not steal," when you have several mansions filled with stolen goods (literally).

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[commodore64_love]

I don't mind healthcare for the poor who can't afford to pay the bills, but it should be funded by the Wealthy Corporations, not the citizens. After all the corporations just got about 2000 billion in handouts - let them return some of it in the form of free medicine for the poor.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[iserlohn]

Problems with the NHS are hyped-up way over what they are in reality. I have lived and been treated in 5 countries including the UK, the US and Canada. In the UK you get prioritised by need. If you have a life-threatening problem, you get operated on immediately, no questions asked. If you want a knee-replacement that's not urgent, you need to wait (and it's getting shorter). If you don't want to wait that long, you can choose from a variety of options including paying for the procedure privately or by having health insurance. Frontline care is usually delivered by the NHS even if you have private health insurance. There's nothing *poor* about the NHS, and compared with the Canadian system, you also have a choice to go private if you wish. When you consider that the Canadian system costs 20% more and the American one 100% more, that's a pretty good.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[commodore64_love]

Bread and circuses keep the people happy.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

since morals are not universal, but personal.

Morals are also cultural, and culturally, you can't get much further from American culture than Chinese culture.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

When people (Americans) come overseas and apologise for presidents and the stupid things their country is doing, that's gotta be embarrassing.

For them. Sort of. It's not really so much as an apology as a sly way for those to the left of center to assert their superiority over the right-of-center unwashed Fox-news-watching American masses. That sort of thing has been going on at least since Reagan (minus the Fox News part), and probably far longer.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[commodore64_love]

>>>Got a shitty village in the way of the interstate? Move. No pissy little lawsuits there to slow things down. And then the interstate is done...

That used to be true in America too, but then in the 1970s the villagers started protesting because they didn't want their homes razed. It's why Baltimore's I-95 does not connect to I-83 or I-70 (it was supposed to). It's why Washington's I-66 does not run straight-through and connect to I-95 (it was supposed to). It's also why I-95 stops in Philadelphia instead of continuing onward to New York.

The people complained.
Here in the States the "villagers" voices were heard. It's a representative Republic.
In China they get executed or imprisoned. It's non-representative.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Jaysyn]

America literally eats other cultures for lunch. We embrace & extend them. It's one of the things that makes the USA, the USA.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[spitzig]

"secular society"-I find that strange, given that (western) monarchies are usually believed to get their right to rule from (Christian) God. Often there is even an official state religion. Like, a "Church of England".

But, in practice it seems the situations are reverse.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[ilsaloving]

The funny part is when those people who actually do pay for their health care end up getting denied coverage for an expensive but critical procedure (like cancer) because the the insurance company claimed that they had a random and innocuous pre-existing condition decades earlier (like a yeast infection).

It's called murder by spreadsheet. And it's perfectly legal and proper in the states. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/17/84926/5173

One of the most important parts of the recent health care bill included trying to limit this kind of behaviour from insurance companies.

Yet based on the number of protests and whatnot, we can only assume that Americans want to be screwed over. They want to die helplessly while viable and available medicines are dangled out of their reach.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[spitzig]

They mock American gridlock? Why? It sounds like the major cities are getting it pretty bad, now that they are getting cars.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Pharmboy]

Tradtionally, Manifest Destiny *did* mean spreading "America" all across the continent of North America, but it doesn't take too much looking to see that the concept has evolved to mean spreading "Americanism" to the entire globe. And yes, it is a form of Colonialism, which Europe, the Ottoman Empire, the Romans and virtually every "superpower" thoughout history was known for. The difference is that now many Americans want to spread their form of American Christianism to other countries and are content to leave the actual governance to the locals.

This is a sort of "Colonial Light", where you don't force others to be a part of your country, only forcing them to adopt your values and form of government. Actually, if you read history, the Romans also did something similar where the locals ran things using Roman law (more or less) and Rome got the taxes. This is coopting other countries beliefs into the new system of government, so it looks a lot like the old, but is really managed by the new. Take a close look at Christian holidays, Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day, and you find Pagan origins where the holidays were based around the same time as the pagan holidays and *still* use the same symbols even today: trees (Juletime), eggs (fertility), ghosts (spirits).

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[grumpyman]

This is generally what I hear from Chinese friends here in North America who have close ties to mainland. Some care about the censorship but some other are agnostic about it.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[grumpyman]

I can concur with your comment. When people here complains about why the government here move so slowly, have so much red tap and papers and form and procedures, I tell them this is part of the price we have to pay for our democracy. We need to keep track of every single correspondence and paper trail so that when it came under question, government can cover that you-know-what. They probably don't need that in China. Of course there are a lot of cons about that.

BTW Hong Kong laws are based on English Common Law (yes, some of their lawyers/judges still wear that wig thing!). And the people thinking about democracy and government is very different from the mainland folks, though very divided after the hand-over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Law

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[swillden]

Regardless, I'm not sure that many Americans do think that universal health care would be a bad thing, they just don't want to fund it through their taxes, so don't support it. They likely see it as something along the lines of "if people want health care, they should work to pay for it". It is a very capitalist model, but not necessarily immoral.

There are also a fair number of Americans, like me, who don't have any problem with the idea of state-provided healthcare, but don't want the federal government to provide it. From a legalistic perspective, the federal government has no constitutional authority to provide healthcare, which means that the courts really shouldn't allow them to do it, but the 50 states absolutely could. From a practical perspective, we both have deep mistrust of our federal government's ability to manage the system well, and think there's a lot of value in having 50 parallel experiments in how to best implement such a system -- including allowing states who want to take a more capitalist approach to do so.

One common criticism of the state-run approach is that state governments do have a little more trouble with corruption than the federal government (the feds are more known for inefficiency and abuse, but tend not to have much corruption), and that's where the federal courts do have a legitimate authority, to ensure that the states are following their own laws, and that those laws are fair and evenhanded.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[swillden]

Get the country to the point where bribery is no longer a practical necessity and I think you'll see government enforcement scale quite well to 1+ billion people.

Agreed. The notion that government enforcement doesn't scale is just silly. China may not have bothered to scale it, but it scales up just fine, as long as there's enough wealth to pay a significant portion of the population to be the enforcers.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Pharmboy]

Oh, I forgot to correct your other mistakes.

Woodrow Wilson *was* a Christian, specifically a Presbyterian. The KKK is founded on their own twisted ideas about Christianity, and is a de facto Christian only organization. Specifically, the group supports Protestant Christianity. Even the "burning cross" they have so tenderly affixed to the front yards of many innocent blacks, is a Christian symbol. They hate jews, atheists, blacks, Catholics and everyone that doesn't accept Jesus as their savior. If you aren't a Christian, you can not be a member. Period.

I already corrected your mistake about Manifest Destiny in another post.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me tell you what chinese are thinking (Im a mainland-chinese)

80%: what is Google? how to pronounce? said it again please? computer thing? no too expensive to buy a computer. I can eat the worst food but I need a lot of money to pay my child's university tuition (most chinese people can't use computer. and live in village )

16% I don't care. I don't use google. baidu is better. (actually google give much better search result but baidu wins in pirate,footleg, entertainment area. and always play dirty tricks with goverment to against google.) most netizen of china only use internet for entertainment. less of them visit Non-chinese site. even more people only view local web portals. internet access are in vain
most chinese netizen do not know how to email. they only know QQ (a clone from ICQ and the IM Dominator of mainland china).

the rest google users are said and most of they don't know how to vist those blocked sites. they hope google don't fight the government, at least they still can use a part of google's service.

only 0.003% people know's what's really going on and how to visit the outside world.

as you can see. the word "freedom" for most chinese is a too high.
most of the village people only dreams they can stop worry about the cash to maintain their normal life.
most of 26-40 y old people in big cities, only dreams if they can have a house for their marriage.
most of 10-22 y old kids in big cities, only care about QQ and local online RPG games.

most people don't know:
goverment lies on TV news and News paper. and tell them google is evil, as a chinese should leave it alone.
goverment hire writer (know as WuMao) and post lies in popular chinese forums for the goverment. and every web site in china must have it's own censorship system. if anything goes against the goverment. it must be "harmonized" / deleted at once! if the site's owner missed or refuse to delete. the owner may be sent to jail and his site well be deleted.

so do u think google's leave will get compassion from chinese people now?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Edzilla2000]

You are almost funny... The US NEED china a lot more than china needs the US. Your industrial production capacity is close to zero, and even if it was not, anything manufactured in the US is going to cost a kidney. You have to realize something: the chinese produce crap because that's what us "civilized countries" ask them for. You ask for your shinny new GPS or cellphone for cheap, your children's toys or your paint for next to nothing, like every single other american or european consumer. Well, the only way for them to manufacture for cheap is to save on wages and on quality. The day you'll accept paying more for everything coming out of china is the day you will see higher quality stuff with a "made in china" stamp.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[c 0xFF]

He said that there is little demand for democracy among ordinary Chinese, but there is a huge wish for accountability.... but that democracy isn't really seen as relevant to that debate.

Your friend hit the nail on the head there. In theory, Democracy should be all about accountability: prove you did a good job or get kicked out. Instead what we see (especially in young democracies) is that corruption is still there, but in a slightly different form than before.

Honestly, I don't think democracy is the be-all end-all of governance. A very good step in the right direction for China might be to find a way to hold their officials accountable to the people in some way.

A good idea, if a way can be found.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[TapeCutter]

Here in Oz queue jumping via cash or private insurance is illegal, there is one queue for everyone and in my experience it's usually a short one. You can pick your own doctor (often without an appointment), and get as many second opinions as you like.

Private insurance or cash is for "luxuries" like first dibs on a private room, fake tits, hair transplants, etc. The most obvious "hole" is that dentistry is not covered by UHC. Some doctors charge marginally above the schedule price but it's not worth getting private insurance to cover the margin.

A family on $100,000/yr pays a $1500/yr levy on their tax and is gaurenteed never to pay more than $1200/yr for medicine, I hear it costs almost 10X as much to fully insure a family in the US.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Red Flayer]

It's also why I-95 stops in Philadelphia instead of continuing onward to New York.

What?

I've driven 95 from NY to Boston, from NY to DC, many times.

Sure, a portion is the NJ Turnpike, but it still connects. And it's cheaper to use the NJ Turnpike than it would be to have a redundant superhighway (although I'm not a fan of paying tolls).

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[davester666]

It's kinda funny to mix the Christian 'God' and democracy, because if there was one thing 'God' isn't really into, it's democracy. 'God' is very much a top-down, I'll pick the people I will deal with, being.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wait till your country in Europe elects a black man (or gasp, woman) as leader.. Then the crazies will come out of the woodwork, screaming horrible things at the top of their lungs. (See the US tea party movement).

Look at the reaction on facebook when a picture was released showing the current president with his feet on the presidents desk, and how disrespectful, horrible, etc it was. Note that the outrage didn't exist when pictures of Regan, Bush Jr., and even Gerald Ford were published with their feet on the desk.

I am a libertarian, and have been for almost 10 years now, and I am embarrassed by the antics of people who are waving the party flag lately. (its fashionable, cause Glen Beck, the savior, said so).. Seriously, its like they consciously call themselves libertarian, cause they don't want to hurt the republicans, who they are when they go back home after the protests..

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

People are generally please with any governmental system as long as their basic needs are met and their quality of life is continually improving. It’s very easy to ignore political corruption and blindly go along with political propaganda, when one is focused on advancing their own family interests. When their economy slows and falls, it will only be then when the people focus on the fundamental faults of the government that were once ignored during the economic boom.

Until China’s people fall onto hardships after its great economic boom and expansion (which I expect will continue for a decade or two), the government will likely not change its policies - simply because it does not have to.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Attitudes don't form in a vacuum. Your attitudes are come a bit from yourself, and a great deal from the average of attitudes expressed by people around you. When expressions of negative attitudes to government are discouraged and suppressed, and positive ones rewarded (this 50 cent party thing - not something exclusive to China, I'm sure), it will drag up everyone, especially those who like to think that they arrive at their attitudes on their own.
It happens and has happened in much worse places than China (East Germany, Burma). Especially if you are a well-off Chinese, it makes a lot of sense to just "not be interested in politics" and defend the government.

This is an issue in just about every nation with every government though, like you mention. Those who are gaining a benefit from the current government are not likely to deride it, for the same reason that those who like the government wouldn't do so. I've met many people from Mainland China for whom their government is a non-issue. The same is true in the United States, where a significant portion of the population just lets political tides come and go and generally accept what comes about without much more than a bat of the eye.

What do Americans say one should do if they don't like what the government is doing? Get involved. "Getting involved" in China is a different matter, but it happens, and has been happening for some time. Their economy is much different than it used to be, and that is due to the Chinese altering the course of the government. Social change is happening in China almost constantly, much like it is happening in the United States, because people are getting involved and driving change through their government. We don't get to see it necessarily from across the ocean, and the United States media tends to focus on the bad more than the good, but there is change occurring.

Like every other nation in the world, China is evolving. China is solving the problems that it has within slowly and surely, the same way that other countries do so. Yes, there is less anti-government speech plastered on their websites and in the faces of every Chinese citizen. But that does not mean the Chinese people are not working towards a better future within the confines of their own system. And as they do so, those "confines" are widening to allow more and more things that never would have been possible before.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[ljgshkg]

Actually, you should think about it in another way.

While many Chinese inland or oversea dislike the sensorship and complain about it all the time. It is fully a differnt topic of them supporting the mainland government against Google or not. You need to know, when complaint/action against the government is from inside, it's one thing. When foreigners are doing that, the view is totally different.

On one hand, Google's view against censorship is right on for many Chinese. But the action it does to the mainland government remind Chinese how foreigners attack and take advantage of China some 60/hundred years ago. This brings up deep anger for many people.

Dealing with Chinese, you can only do it the soft way. Any action/talk that appears to be insulting/forceful will create negative results most likely, not only on government, but on Chinese people also.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

>but we can't force China/Cuba/etc to become "democratic" at the end of a gun barrel or by giving them bibles

YES WE CAN.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[shoehornjob]

Regarding your comment about a legitimate election being "wrong" because people voted the "incorrect way", most American people I know (myself included) consider that to be a basic freedom. In America you are free to utter thinly veiled racist comments in order to appeal to your political base of other racist jackasses. The Chinese people lack that basic freedom due to an oppressive government. Your comment about vulgar and uncivilized Americans truly shows how truly ignorant you are.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[ultranova]

Some things can pretty much be agreed upon as immoral: murder (note, not simply killing); rape; abuse of power etc. but everything else is entirely based upon circumstance. If you are brought up in a culture where personal possession is meaningless for example, then stealing cannot be considered immoral.

There has been - and still are - cultures where rape and murder (by today's standards; I'm assuming you didn't intend to invoke the tautology "unlawful killing is unlawful") were legal in some circumstances. For example, in all slave-owning cultures it was okay to force your slaves into sexual intercourse with you or someone else; and in many countries nowadays honor killing and revenge rape is common and approved by the populace. So no, these are not in any case universally considered immoral.

What can be agreed upon is that pretty much nobody wants to be murdered or raped. However, almost nobody also wants to have no power over his personal circumstances or the laws of the society he lives in. Very few wants to be judged by arbitrary whims of his feudal lord or a mob either. So, if you use the Golden Rule as a basis for morality, you end up with freedom, democracy and the rule of law being superior to authoritarianism; if you don't, you either accept that murder and rape are okay or arbitrarily declare them to not be for no good reason besides personal taste.

So, in short, either Western democratic culture is superior to Chinese dictatorship, or anything - including rape, murder and abuse of power - are just fine. Or, to put it even more bluntly: the only world where China is not morally inferior to West is one where hypocrisy - having different rules for different people - is not immoral.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm old enough to recall the exact same sentiments towards "cheap Japanese crap" back in the 70s. That ended when Japan's economy went into a (now) 15-year funk because they weren't flexible enough when a lot of the bottom-end manufacturing moved to Singapore and China.

In 10 to 20 years people like you will be saying the same thing about India when the bottom-end manufacturing moves there.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[discord5]

Got a shitty village in the way of the interstate? Move. No pissy little lawsuits there to slow things down.

Except when you live in the village getting in the way of the interstate and the government offers you a the monetary equivalent of "Cry me a river" and bulldozes your house and any form of protest is met with imprisonment.

It's easy to get shit done when you don't have to listen to the people you're doing it for.

While most of the Chinese people I talked to were rather ignorant about news (nationally and internationally), pretty much all of them liked the government.

It would seem that the old saying "Ignorance is bliss" does appear to be stand.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[mike2R]

Remember that the Church of England is not about the church controlling the state, but rather the other way around.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[IndustrialComplex]

A family on $100,000/yr pays a $1500/yr levy on their tax and is gaurenteed never to pay more than $1200/yr for medicine, I hear it costs almost 10X as much to fully insure a family in the US.

Probably $500-$1000 a month doesn't seem out of line for the US for an entire family if paid completely by the family and not part of a larger group. (I'm paying as a single payer for my sister and she gets fair coverage for $80/month with a moderately high deductible)

Your family would pay at most 2700, ten times that is $27,000 and that is FAR more than most families would pay in insurance in the US. When I was with Lockheed, I think the total paid by me and my company was somwhere between $2-4k per family. (I only paid about $1000 iirc.)

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[HeckRuler]

Yes, well, that whole "divine right" thing was a while ago and while in places there's essentially a state religion, the Church of England hasn't passed any legislature in a while and everyone involved is better off for it. They've left that whole governance thing strictly to the secular world.
As opposed to the USA where some of the churches are foaming at the mouth to put a preacher in the white house.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese people are very complex. I've gotten to know a few from mainland China that were living here in the US and they were quite fascinating people.

One was 40-something guy, in the late 80's, who was the best table tennis player I've ever seen in person. He dominated anyone I ever saw him play at the local table tennis clubs and his tournament competition rating was well over 2000.

When he was a teenager he was the #3 rated player in China, in his age group. But, the Chinese government took his paddle away and sent him to re-education camps for more than a decade during which he wasn't allowed to even touch a paddle or have any contact with his family. His crime? His grandfather and father were factory owners. When the government nationalized their businesses they were classified as enemies of the state and forced into poverty.

I met him because both he and his wife were in the US getting an education through the Mormon church and he was finishing his Masters in Library Science by working at a community local college.

He could see nothing wrong in how the Chinese government had treated him and his family, but yet he loved the US. He had been so thoroughly "re-educated" that the government impoverishing his family, taking away what had been the family's private property for many decades, and destroying his career as what would have been one of the top table tennis players in the world, was seen by him as reasonable.

BTW, I posted this as AC because I have mod points and don't want to blow up the mod points I've used.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[mike2R]

The problem is Manifest Destiny. Many American Christians truly believe that God® has commissioned us here in the land of milk and honey to spread democracy to the rest of the world. This is why so many have been missionaries over the years, and why our foreign policy is so phucked up. I understand why we might prefer to do business with countries that have some form of representative government, but we can't force China/Cuba/etc to become "democratic" at the end of a gun barrel or by giving them bibles.

You probably shouldn't be too hard on America, it's an occupational hazard of being a superpower. Compared to how we (Britain) behaved when it was our turn, America hasn't been so bad. Britain had missionaries and bible societies sent to every corner of the world, a feeling that Britain was the new Israel (since it was self-evident that God had obviously chosen out Britain, as evidenced by our superiority in all things). Oh and our manifest destiny lead us to colonising around a quarter of the world for its own good. And then moaning about the wearisome "white man's burden" we had taken on.

And as for imperial Spain before that...

I can criticise America with the best of them but really, as superpowers go, America has actually been somewhat less arrogant than the average.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[HeckRuler]

YAY relative morality!
But a vital factor in relativity is that shit has to have a reference. So if someone grew up and exists in a society where personal possession is meaningless, then stealing won't be considered immoral TO HIM. It can still be considered immoral to everyone else. And people won't agree on basic morality, which is what we have going on in this thread. This also jives with history. It doesn't make the moral questions meaningless, but it does make it more complicated. What? You thought this would be easy?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The problem is Manifest Destiny."

Bloody hell, are you nuts?

The problem is this continual blaming of a singular cause as the root of all causes. Here, it's religion yet again. Religion is the foundation of any fledging civilization, so it's always going to have some factor in the evolution of a nation, so you might as well blame food or water as a cause. Here, how do you blame a doctrine attributed to religion, which your own link to Wikipedia undermines--Americans don't believe in Manifest Destiny to the rest of the world, only the coast to coast dominance which has been done and over for decades.

One half of the nastiest wars, that being World War II against Japan, was fought because we introduced TRADE, not religion, to Japan, which spurred their economic and government progress to "catch up." The simple fact is, any combination of cultures brings conflicts. It's been shown prior to our nation's even existence or even colonization, see what is now Mexico in the 1500s.

Going back to Japan and your idea of the spread of Christianity and missionary work, Japan had a stringent policy against foreigners in the country. Mostly, they weren't allowed to be shown in public (official government visitors often wore head coverings), and certainly not spreading of religion, particularly Christianity, or practicing it, was strictly forbidden (by death and/or extreme ostracism). When the King/Osama/Emperor/Leader is seen as a god, missionaries are forbidden, religion is hardly the cause. Even the overthrow from a lone military leader (shogunate) to a more aristrocratic society (meiji era) was due to the simple exposure to western culture and the feeling Japan was inadequate, NOT because of missionary work, which was pretty much nonexistent.

Anyone who looks at religion as the cause is a moron. The Iraq war, no one thought before hand we would be converting the region to Christianity. Ditto for Vietnam. And China? Outside of approved religions and places to worship, Christianity is hardly a factor. So I'm wondering where the hell you get off blaming religion.

Nearly all modern wars have to do with the idea of preventing opposing spheres of influence from flourishing, on the basis that doing so would prevent future prospective, worse, and wider conflicts/wars later. Not the spread of Christianity or the spread of Manifest Destiny. The problem was those preventative actions ended up being keypoints of modern warfare (so one could argue they worked, but that's difficult to say since reality is not a science experiment--there is no "control").

btw, I'm areligious. I don't practice, wasn't brought up that way, never been to a place of worship for the purpose of worship, etc. People blaming religion are like people blaming males for wars or females for wars or some other nonsense. There are plenty of Christians who don't have a bone to pick here, or do you believe that Amish buggy was a successful invasion tool, and the Quakers are just itching to take down that Zionist down the street?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Tranquilla]

It's not that they don't want democracy, they simply don't know what's democracy. They're like those people who can't imagine a world without MS windows and Office, they don't know there're alternatives out there. They think two party politics, freedom of speech will disrupt social harmony. They've always lived under one party rule, to them CCP=Government=State=China. Yes, people are happy, because the economy is doing well, they think the government's done a great job. They don't realize they were also piss poor under same communist party, and it took this party some 40 years and a few big blunders to realise communism doesn't work. And realistically, people know there just won't be a second party, there's no alternative, whatever the failings of the CCP, you just have to put up with it and hope things will get better. But the situation with censorship is a bit different. Chinese people love the internet, we all do. But to them it's also the window to the outside world. Before the Olympics, they enjoyed more freedom on the internet, China seemed to be opening up. Now they feel something is being taken away from them, freedom and connection to the outside world, they don't like it. They probably have never thought about fighting for democracy seriously, but they do want Google, Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, they use proxy and VPN to get around the GFW. There's no demand for full democracy, but there's resentment towards censorship. Interesting comment about Hong Kong, a lot of Chinese think Hong Kong is part of China now, you guys have to obey the same rules. They just don't understand a lot of Hong Kong people detest CCP and we REALLY DO HAVE different laws and they're not subject to CCP's whims.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Alphathon]

I think the secular society thing is as much a result of things like that as anything else. Religion used to be in control (supposed divine right to rule etc), so when the Europe ousted it's monarchies (fully in most cases, but the same is true of the remaining neutered ones like the UK and the Netherlands) we wanted rid of both religion and heredity controlling power.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[treeves]

Kelo v. New London.

sad thing is the business they forced people out of their homes to give the land to, is no longer in business there. Way to go, Supreme Court.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[srobert]

Oh yeah, how can I form a valid opinion in an atmosphere of freedom? Only through oppression and control of the people's thought processes can they be guided to proper conclusions.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

> When people (Americans) come overseas and apologise for presidents and the stupid things their country is doing, that's gotta be embarrassing.

Embarrassing for the one doing the apologizing, sure. But in the larger context of things, isn't it a sign of enlightenment? Most of the rest of the world is still locked into the older mentality of "my nation is always right, because it is synonymous with my racial identity, which is synonymous with my personal identity"; it is rare for citizens of even the most modern of nations to admit fault for anything, even for events still in living memory. Yet we're all still human, and our nations all still do stupid and/or horrible things on a regular basis. The species is still going through the growing pains of trying to really master the concept of civilization.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[jim_v2000]

Who is this "everyone else" that you speak of? People outside his society? They don't matter.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[acecamaro666]

Lack enforcemnt of the law does not mean freedom. Lack of enforcement of the law leads to things like milk formula being produced with harmful chemicals or shoddy schools being built that collapse in a earthquake.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[HungWeiLo]

I've driven in a number of different countries, and every time I come back to the US (and Canada to an extent), I can't help but think of the term "manifest destiny" when I see the huge, leaden Chevy Tahoe driving at speed limit on the left lane of the freeway like they owned the road. The culture of individualism in America stems from Manifest Destiny and in turns magnifies this thinking.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[DJRumpy]

That is a taught response. These people listen to media that more accurately reflects their views. Most had probably never been exposed to such entrenched hatred of 'socialist' programs until the recent health care debates. The older crowd was exposed in the 90's, and even older in the 60's. The same applies to the Chinese, Americans, Europeans, etc. There is a definite risk of 'the grass is always greener' in this case. Most 'free' countries allow unfiltered access to the internet (within reason), and as such, it is dangerous for China to allow that common knowledge to it's citizens. It would create anger towards their own government if they learned what they lack as compared to more open societies.

I found it interesting that many of the quotes in the translated blogs and tweets expressed anger at Google for leaving the country. Odd that they feel that Google should remain and risk itself, while they fear to do so themselves for obvious reasons. There seems to be a disconnect. Either they assume that Google as an entity would be given special privilege that a common Chinese citizen would receive if it went against the government (i.e. less severe punishment), or they unrealistically expect Google to 'stick it's neck out' where they refuse to.

If the Chinese are not willing to fight for those rights, then Google was correct to simply leave as it is not Google's place to fight for something that they themselves refuse to do.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[ingenuus]

Superpowers are the best at spreading their cultures and ideologies, but I'd argue that all powers do it, particularly when they expand. The salient difference is how they do it -- whether through violence or through trade or other free choice. The reality is always a mixture of those, but the make-up of that mixture is important yet difficult to weigh.

Conflating non-violent missionaries with violent conquerors confuses the morality at issue.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[RespekMyAthorati]

Another thing to consider, according to Chinese students that I know, is that government censorship in China is largely a joke. Not one of them ever had a hard time getting around the "Great Firewall of China" when they wanted to.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

What you're missing is the "wrong" and "right" of the situation. Europeans are right, Americans and Chinese are wrong, in addition to being vulgar and uncivilized.

This was something Americans thought of Europeans during (and shortly after) the WW2, that is, the Europeans where the vulgar and uncivilized and some of them where outright evil, products of completely alien value systems (Nürnberg trials). Somebody wrote in /. some months ago (or was it years) that the Chinese shared these opinions about the Europeans and connected them to the Americans as well few decades ago.
  So it's not really about the people themselves, but about the society, culture and politics and the choices of value systems related to these.
  A philosophical Void forces the masses to search their gods and goddesses out of entertainment industry and "great leaders" as the (emotionally) unschooled masses can't tolerate the dissonance between the requirements of the responsibility for their actions, their instinctual behaviours and the uncertainty for the future.
  Mathematical chaos keeps crashing any real, long term certainty but if the resulting phantom of the certainty lasts for a political term, a career or even a generation, the masses will be satisfied. I might be as well.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, that's the Chinese. Historically at least.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[HeckRuler]

Uh, in this case it's China and their censorship laws and EVERYONE ELSE in the world. Specifically us here at slashdot. It's like my comment wasn't just a wild tangent or something.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[geekgirlandrea]

The idea that one should have to apologize for whatever horrible things a bunch of other people who just happen to be from within the same arbitrary lines drawn on a map did seems itself to be pretty deeply rooted in the personal identity == national culture meme.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[TheSync]

They learned from the USA that if you keep the populace fat-dumb-and happy by getting them TV then they are "happy"

In the 1950's, China starved around 30 million people to death during the "Great Leap Forward" farm collectivizations. I guess they learned that fat-happy is better than starving-to-death happy.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

...and extinguish, like Microsoft?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[TheSync]

I've driven 95 from NY to Boston, from NY to DC, many times.

Yes, but driving through DC originally would not have taken you around on the Beltway:

If I-95 had been completed according to the original plans, it would have continued from the Center Leg to north of New York Avenue, and it would have junctioned the North Leg of the Inner Loop, turned east, and followed the North Leg, which would have paralleled the New York Avenue corridor, about a block to the north of it. At the B&O Railroad corridor (today's CSX Transportation), I-95 would have turned northward as the North Central Freeway, following the railroad corridor to beyond the Brookland area, being tunneled (cut and cover) for 3/4 mile from south of Rhode Island Avenue to north of Michigan Avenue, then leaving the railroad corridor at Fort Totten Park, heading northeast into Maryland as the Northeast Freeway, passing west of Hyattsville and College Park before junctioning I-495 at the I-95/I-495 interchange that was completed in 1971.

Where I-95 joins the Washington Beltway on the north side of town there is this odd interchange with a lot of empty space, that is where I-95 would have continued in to the city.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[shutdown -p now]

Why should we apologize? I don't see Europe apologizing for the peoples they suppressed ...

Europe has been apologizing for that for way longer than was needed, actually. Have you missed the whole phenomenon of "white guilt"? It's not at all specific to race relations within U.S., you know...

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[shutdown -p now]

I don't mind healthcare for the poor who can't afford to pay the bills, but it should be funded by the Wealthy Corporations, not the citizens.

Wow, a die-hard libertarian in support of ultra-progressive income tax? What is the world coming to?..

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[shutdown -p now]

North Koreans like their government too.

We don't know for sure either way, but all 3 accounts of foreign tourists in NK that I've read myself mention the bit where, if their guide was to be away / not looking, the braver locals would jump at the opportunity to start a conversation, and most questions would be of the kind "so what life really is like in SK / USA / elsewhere?" (with the implication that it surely must be better).

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[shutdown -p now]

It reminds me of a conversation in Deus Ex that you could have with a bartender in a night club in Hong Kong (which, by the timeline of the game, is already ruled directly by PRC at that point, and not autonomous anymore):

JC Denton: "You said 'outside influences.' What does China fear?"
Isaac: "China is the last sovereign country in the world. Authoritarian but willing - unlike U.N.-governed countries - to give its people the freedom to do what they want.
JC Denton: "As long as they don’t break the law."
Isaac: "Listen to me. This is real freedom, freedom to own property, make a profit, make your life. The West, so afraid of strong government, now has no government. Only financial power."
JC Denton: "Our governments have limited power by design."
Isaac: "Rhetoric--and you believe it! Don’t you know where those slogans come from?"
JC Denton: "I give up."
Isaac: "Well-paid researchers - how do you say it? - 'think tanks,' funded by big businesses. What is that? A 'think tank'?"
JC Denton: "Hardly as sinister as a dictator, like China’s Premier."
Isaac: "It’s privately-funded propaganda. The Trilateral Commission in the United States for instance."
JC Denton: "The separation of powers acknowledges the petty ambitions of individuals; that’s its strength."
Isaac: "A system organized around the weakest qualities of individuals will produce these same qualities in its leaders."
JC Denton: "Perhaps certain qualities are an inseparable part of human nature.
Isaac: "The mark of the educated man is the suppression of these qualities in favor of better ones. The same is true of civilization."

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[shutdown -p now]

I am more fascinated by the reaction of first-generation Chinese immigrants many of them continue to be nationalistic after decades of immigration.

It's not unique to China - all strongly nationalistic countries seem to exhibit the same phenomenon. I've seen it frequently among the fellow Russian immigrants, for example - the whole "good or bad, my country" thing.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the Internet will eventually enlighten the China people. Although I grew up in China, after I read some articles on wikipedia about the scientific revolution and the age of enlightenment, it's pretty clear to me what China needs the most. I believe the best and brightest in China will lead the way to transform China.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[fishexe]

North Koreans like their government too.

Do you have evidence for this, or are we just supposed to accept your authority?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Russians lived that way, under Stalin, and then one day,, It Exploded,,,, as did all of Eastern Europe.

People are NOT Mushrooms

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good points,,, I don't agree with all of them.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

The recent "Heath Care Reform" law that was passed, is the biggest farce to be perpetuated upon the American population in the last 80 years!!! This makes Roosevelt look like an absolute PIKER!!! The worse part of it is that, the longer ii is in force the greater it will put us in debt.
Nobody's health coverage, will be bettered with this new law.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

The most incitful posting about China I have ever seen. Kudos Kudos
Post again,,, Please

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[nobodie]

OK, I'm here, in Suzhou about half an hour from Shanghai. What is the feeling here? 1) Here in Suzhou it is blase', this is a business city, people here only care about money and have no interest in anything besides that. 2) But, I have lived in other parts of China where people are genuinely interested in freedom and rights and have less focus on money. 3) As well, my wife is an artist and within the art community (which is a very powerful force in Chinese society) there is tremendous interest in internet freedom and in building positive status in the west. Artists know that their standing is referent to other social functions. 4) As you all should have known if you spent the time to think, there is no one true answer, no one true response from the (1.2 or 4 billion) Chinese people. Just as westerners seem to think that all Chinese are hard working over-achievers (they aren't at all, they are mostly a bunch of lazy seat warmers taking up cube space) it is easy to let cultural stereotype built from media versions of reality affect and shape how you think about these highly diverse people. No, they are not western, they are not what you think they are as well, I live here and I am constantly amazed at what they do know about (even though it is "blocked") and what they actually think about things.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[commodore64_love]

>>>Many American Christians truly believe that God® has commissioned us here in the land of milk and honey to spread democracy to the rest of the world.
>>>

It sounds like you are quoting Democratic President Woodrow Wilson ("make the world safe for democracy"), and he was no Christian. He was a member of the KKK. Furthermore he was hardly democratic since he rounded-up folks and threw them in prison for daring to cricitize his adminstration. Example: Alice Paul, the suffragette.

Also you misuse the word Manifest Destiny, which referred to a U.S. that stretched from the Atlantic to the Pacific. It had nothing to do with world affairs beyond those borders.

As I recall, from history, it was the Europeans that believed it okay to colonize the whole world and suppress everyone to European ideas for 400-some years. Including China. Apparently the Euros think we've forgotten that, but we have not. We and our Canadian/South American neighbors used to be suppressed colonies too.
--

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[commodore64_love]

>>>I've driven 95 from NY to Boston, from NY to DC, many times. Sure, a portion is the NJ Turnpike, but it still connects.

No.

The NJ Turnpike is not part of I-95. The NJ Turnpike picks-up near Wilmington DE (after you cross the state line), whereas I-95 "veers left" and heads north to Philadelphia. Two separate roads.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[jim_v2000]

My point was that everyone else in the world doesn't matter to the Chinese. They have their way of doing things and they seem pretty content with it.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

what's wrong with being a pacifist?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[monkeyspoon5]

Woman? Oh you mean like Thatcher? Or Merkel? Wait, nothing has come of that. It would be much worse if a Muslim was elected Prime Minister/President, then the shit would hit the fan.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is Manifest Destiny. Many American Christians truly believe that God® has commissioned us here in the land of milk and honey to spread democracy to the rest of the world. This is why so many have been missionaries over the years, and why our foreign policy is so phucked up. I understand why we might prefer to do business with countries that have some form of representative government, but we can't force China/Cuba/etc to become "democratic" at the end of a gun barrel or by giving them bibles.

If the US would focus more on "freedom" and less on delivering it to other countries, we would be a stronger country. Right now, our freedoms are eroding, our jobs are at risk, our manufacturing base is rusting away, half of our allies stay pissed at us, all due a national self-rightousness that arrogantly assumes that ALL countries should have a form of government just like ours. And yes, I was in the military, as was my father, so I'm not an isolationist or pacifist. I want us to have a strong defense, but the American delusion of Manifest Destiny undermines it.

I am a Christian missionary living for 15 years in a third world country. I am not interested in the least in spreading anything "American" to the people here. I preach and teach Christ crucified and raised from the dead. I am constantly amazed how slashdot trashes Christianity. I enjoy the technical articles but am amazed at how people view Christians. You can find hypocritical people in all walks of life. Read what the Bible says, do that and so many of life problems will simply fade away.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Pharmboy]

I would argue that individualism and manifest destiny aren't so tightly bundled, although I admit that it is hard to get to "Manifest Destiny" except through a culture that praises itself on individualism. Individualism stops at the self, where the concepts of manifest destiny say "and you should be just like me."

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[TapeCutter]

A single on $50K would pay $750/yr for full cover, which as you say is nowhere near 10X what you would pay in the US. However on a per capita basis the WHO gives the following statistics...

"In 2005, Australia spent 8.8% of GDP on health care, or US$3,181 per capita. Of that, approximately 67% was government expenditure.
In 2005, the United States spent 15.2% of GDP on health care, or US$6,347 per capita. Of that, approximately 45% was government expenditure."

So it would seem that you guys (under the old system) were already paying a similar amount in tax as we do in total, and then doubling down with private insurance. Yet somehow the mulitude of US systems still end up bankrupting some patients?

Clearly neither your politicians or your insurance industry have any idea how to implement an efficient system. Maybe it's time for the health proffesionals to take over running the US system as they have done in the UK and Oz?

BTW: The WHO consistently rates France as the "best overall health care" in the world. In 2005, France spent 11.2% of GDP on health care, or US$3,926 per capita. Of that, approximately 80% was government expenditure.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Alphathon]

In slave owning cultures, I would say that forced intercourse would likely not be considered rape, as the culture would consider the slave as property not a person (or property first, person second). Likewise honour killing in such societies would not be considered murder, but a separate act. I tried to make the distinction between murder and killing, but it is difficult to define. I think a good definition which would cover multiple cultures would be intentional killing outside of bound X. X would be just as personal as any other moral. For example, we in the west don't generally consider killing on behalf of the nation for an army murder, but not everyone agrees. Similarly, for most people in the west, killing to maintain honour would not fall within X, but would to some, and would in many other cultures. In both circumstances murder is considered immoral, but how murder is defined is different. Really, even murder doesn't have to be considered immoral, but if it weren't then a culture would soon die out or change their views.

Also, you seem to be missing a distinction between personal morals and moral consensus. While a single person my agree with the morals employed by the Chinese govt. that does not mean that it is generally considered to be right. I'm not quite sure what you mean by different rules for different people, but you seem to be suggesting some absolute moral structure, which defines what is right and wrong (a deity?). Without such a thing nothing is morally inferior to anything else except in consensus, and even that is part of the super-culture that is humanity. The world considers America > China (generally speaking), but that does not mean that it is absolutely true.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[HeckRuler]

I'm pretty sure that China does a rather lot of exporting to the rest of the world.
Furthermore, China imports goods and services they can't reproduce on their own..... like the quality search engine that is Google.

You seeing the connection to post yet?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Alphathon]

Oh, I agree with you, and I wasn't saying that if someone did something that they consider moral, someone else can't/shouldn't consider it immoral. What I was saying is that DNS-and-BIND shouldn't* have said "Europeans are right, Americans and Chinese are wrong" as it implies some kind of non-relative morality. You, or any other person may believe that such thing exists, especially if you believe in a god or gods. Even if you do though, unless it can be demonstrated that what you hold to be moral corresponds to said objective moral code, as well that the moral code is actually objective and truly exists, there is no justification* for stating that "it is so" rather than "this is what I think". *This is also an opinion/personal and not objective truth.

Phew

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing I don't live in China or this comment would be harmonized.

Fol the love of God.

[santax]

The Chinese people don't leally cale about Google. So I do not undelstand why we talk so much about this. Just my 50 ct.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Spewns]

The Chinese people don't leally cale about Google. So I do not undelstand why we talk so much about this. Just my 50 ct.

Yes! All this reary annoyed! ^_^~~~~~

Goggle (9x_x)9 Q(^.^Q) China

Re:Fol the love of God.

[francium de neobie]

Just my 50 ct.

When posting to foreign forums, you should convert our local currency to the appropriate currency first. So you should have said, "Just my 7.32 cents". Keep up the good work, comrade!

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese people don't leally cale about Google.
So I do not undelstand why we talk so much about this.

Just my 50 ct.

That was an extremely belabored attempt at a 200 year old joke. I'll bet you only speak one language.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[santax]

At least use your own account when telling someone you don't agree with a joke. Thanks for asking though, I speak Dutch, German, French, English and several dialects of said languages (not from France and England though).

Re:Fol the love of God.

[ShakaUVM]

>>The Chinese people don't leally cale about Google. So I do not undelstand why we talk so much about this. Just my 50 ct.

Oh, lord.

It's the Japanese (mainly) that have the R/L confusion. Mandarin has distinct R's and L's. Their r sound is a little funny, hind of like a "rrreh" sound (http://www.mandarintools.com/sounds/ri4.aif or http://www.mandarintools.com/sounds/rang4.aif). Cantonese speakers commonly confuse L and N, though they can have trouble with R's as well (confusing it with W). However, they usually get exposed to R via Mandarin or British English, so the problem isn't as prevalent.

Please, if you're going to mock a race, at least make sure you get it right. It'd be like making fun of the British for bombing Hiroshima.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[santax]

Wow, I can't believe you (not you alone) think of this as mocking. Maybe it comes because we have grown up in different places. Man, my Asian friends certainly aren't offended by this one. Probably would be on the receiving end of a Dutchman joke though... at which I can laugh too. Not everything is a racial issue lol.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[sam0737]

man, the parent should be mod up as funny.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[ShakaUVM]

Wow, I can't believe you (not you alone) think of this as mocking. Maybe it comes because we have grown up in different places. Man, my Asian friends certainly aren't offended by this one. Probably would be on the receiving end of a Dutchman joke though... at which I can laugh too. Not everything is a racial issue lol.

It doesn't bother me that you're mocking a race, it bothers me that you're mocking the wrong race. =)

It's like... making fun of Dutchmen for eating sauerkraut and invading Poland.

Or, I dunno, maybe you guys like sauerkraut. So, uh... put "ethnic food of your choice" there.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[santax]

Hehe, well yes we like sauerkraut (zuurkool in Dutch) also, but I get your point. That's fair :)

Re:Fol the love of God.

[krou]

Wait ... what? The British didn't bomb Hiroshima? Puh-leeaze. Next you'll tell me the earth isn't flat or something.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't have an account. In all those countries they speak English, except France. You could have gotten away with just English and French. Way to spend your time learning increasingly obsolete languages. I speak Mandarin and Spanish, so suck on my relevance.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Vintermann]

Strange, because the Chinese I've studied with did mix up l and r, or at least had big trouble producing a tapped r in such a way that it could be distinguished from l. Also they had no chance at rolled r's.

Maybe this is not an issue for Chinese learning English, but the prejudice is based on fact. Even so, the OP mocked paid shills for the Chinese Government, not all Chinese.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[ShakaUVM]

>>Strange, because the Chinese I've studied with did mix up l and r, or at least had big trouble producing a tapped r in such a way that it could be distinguished from l. Also they had no chance at rolled r's.

Were they native Mandarin or Cantonese speakers?

If you want to tell what dialect a Chinese guy speaks, ask them to say "World". That hits all the hard sounds for them in one word.

Cantonese speakers have more trouble with R/W & L/N confusion, but I've never met a Mandarin speaker that has had much trouble. Ri and Le are identical sounds except for the R/L difference, so it's very important that they pronounce them differently. Likewise, C, Z, J and S are all very very close in sound, so they tend to always get those straight.

There could be individual exceptions, I guess... Barbara Walters certainly can't speak English very well.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Vintermann]

I figured out they were Mandarin speakers, although they had never heard that word, and claimed there was just one kind of Chinese (although they spoke "weird" in Hong Kong)

Re:Fol the love of God.

[santax]

Ah but my friend, some of the greatest and most beautiful things in life serve no real purpose. My wife is a great example of such thing.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait ... what? The British didn't bomb Hiroshima?

No, everybody knows it was the whales and dolphins - that's why they're hunted in the East.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[ShakaUVM]

>>I figured out they were Mandarin speakers, although they had never heard that word, and claimed there was just one kind of Chinese (although they spoke "weird" in Hong Kong)

Lol.

When they make the 'r' sound, they should be pursing their lips, and making a weird 'rrr' sound when doing it. I posted some sound files above of what the r sounds like in Mandarin. It may sound funny, but they shouldn't be confusing the r and l. =)

Re:Fol the love of God.

[biryokumaru]

What was up with Poland, seriously? We always learned in high school that they did it to get to France. Then in college I looked at a map of Europe, and I think the Germans could have benefited from doing the same.

Note: I've always been an extremely poor student, thus the lack of looking at maps.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like... making fun of Dutchmen for eating sauerkraut and invading Poland.

Or, I dunno, maybe you guys like sauerkraut. So, uh... put "ethnic food of your choice" there.

Do not make a mockery of ze Sauerkraut! It is ze our food, mein Herr! We will not let it be assimilated by ze caravan peoples! Jawohl!

Re:Fol the love of God.

[santax]

OK in short. Germany had made a pact with Russia, to divide Poland (molotov-pact). Germany made a claim on Poland province Danzig. Poland would not give the province and Hitler invaded. At that point France and England declared war. Poland is not on the route to France, it is the route to Russia. So I don't know why they told you that they did it to get to France... They invaded France first by the Maginot line, which was heavily fortified, so Hitler declared war on Belgium, this route would lead to Paris and the collapse of France, bypassing the heavily fortified French/German border by choosing the not fortified Belgium/France border.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[PakProtector]

It's like... making fun of Dutchmen for eating sauerkraut and invading Poland.

Or, I dunno, maybe you guys like sauerkraut. So, uh... put "ethnic food of your choice" there.

Do not make a mockery of ze Sauerkraut! It is ze our food, mein Herr! We will not let it be assimilated by ze caravan peoples! Jawohl!

Verspotten Sie Deutsch nicht! Es ist eine gute Sprache, Herr! Guten Tag!

Verdammter Ignorant...

Re:Fol the love of God.

[amRadioHed]

It's true Mandarin has distinct R's and L's, although just last week a Chinese friend of mine told an inadvertently hilarious story about a game that involved hitting a bell when she confused the word "bell" with "bear". I haven't noticed her making similar errors though, so it could be just that one word she was confused over, and not the "l" sound in general.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[clone53421]

Hey, maybe you can tell me where the little Asian guy who taught one of my classes was from. He was doing digital pattern recognition and was always talking about faces and eyes (since they are the easiest-to-locate features on faces, I guess).

If you take the following continuum (not a progression, but a continuum):

eyes — ice — ess — ass

His pronunciation of “eyes” was about three-quarters of the way to “ass” (which was really funny, when he’d point to his face and sound like he was saying “ass”).

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Vectormatic]

here in holland, most younger folk speak anywhere from barely acceptable to excellent english, my parents' generation is already worse, where only the higher educated people have sufficient command of the language to have a propper conversation, my grand parents? They know some english, but if you dropped them in England, they would have quite some trouble.. Then take into account that in Germany, practically every english show/movie is dubbed with german voices, and you can see that speaking German isnt all that obsolete.

Now off course, when all you do on vacation is sit in front of the tent and drink beer, english and 'zwei bier bitte' will suffice

Also, Some german comes in handy when listening to for instance Rammstein, Oomph, KMFDM, not to mention playing Wolfenstein (otherwise all those cries from opposing forces are lost on you..)

As for mandarin and spanish, good for you, i just dont see why you need to diss people for learning other stuff..

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Vectormatic]

making fun of Dutchmen for eating sauerkraut and invading Poland.

Bah, in socialist Holland, Poland invades you!

seriously, we have tons of eastern europeans here misbehaving and such "They TUK UR JUUUUBSS"

(to slightly expand on the misbehaving, they dont know how to propperly drive, and they know that automated speeding tickets wont get through the entire international proces anyway, the polish police just throws them out. Also driving drunk apperently isnt a problem in poland.. I have nothing against polish people in general, but the ones coming here, ducking taxes and driving like morons with their poorly maintained 15 year old lowered BMWs are a bit of a pain sometime)

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Vectormatic]

God i love the german language, i especially like your military ranks "oberstormbahnfuhrer" "feldwebel" and such, not to mention that angry industrial music (rammstein) sounds much better in german.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Vectormatic]

FUK UUU DOH-PHIN!!!

God i loved that episode

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Anonymous Coward]

Achtung!

(Bark, Bark)

(shot)

Achtung!

(Bark, Bark)

(shot)

Wolfenstein 3D is a truly challenging example of the german language!

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Obersturmbannführer" hasn't been a military rank in more than 60 years ;)

Rammstein rocks. However it often feels as if they specifically try to make their music attractive to a US audience. What with their choice of aggressive sounding yet simple/recognisable words and all.

Reminds me of those American WW2 movies in which German soldiers always yell the same things "Achtung! Gefahr! Der Panzer! Sie kommen!".

Re:Fol the love of God.

[HungWeiLo]

When English is transliterated into Mandarin, the double LL's as part of an English word often become the "er" sound in Mandarin, thus the confusion.

Also, Mandarin speakers in the northern parts of China tend to slur their speech with more "err"'s at the end of a word, whereas a southerner would not do that so much.

Take the word "wan", for example: (it means "play")

In Beijing, you would hear it pronounced "waer" (sounds like "war")
In Shanghai or Taiwan, you would most likely hear it pronounced "wan".

Re:Fol the love of God.

[ShakaUVM]

>>In Beijing, you would hear it pronounced "waer" (sounds like "war")

Yeah, my wife mocks me for wanting to wanr in the yuanr. That's what I get from learning Mandarin from people from Beijing.

Hmm, so maybe Mandarin speakers can confuse a trailing L then, since there's no syllables that end in L in pinyin. But I've never heard a Mandarin speaker make the Rice/Lice confusion.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[amRadioHed]

Interesting, I didn't know about the transliteration of the LL's, that makes sense.

She is not from Beijing area so it probably wasn't the erhua, IIRC she is from a little south of Shanghai.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[fishexe]

What was up with Poland, seriously? We always learned in high school that they did it to get to France.

Then your high school teachers were serious dipshits. Germany had a historic claim to parts of Poland based on them having been German (mostly Prussian) territory. Russia had a similar claim based on having long ago conquered the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, which became free after the Russian revolution.

So that makes no sense for many, many reasons.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[PakProtector]

Ich bin Amerikaner.

Ich studiere Deutsch bei Uni. Mein Vaters Großeltern waren von Deutschland. Ich hoffe eines Tages nach Deutschland reisen.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ich bin Amerikaner.

Ich studiere Deutsch AN DER Uni. MeinES Vaters Großeltern STAMMEN AUS Deutschland. Ich hoffe eines Tages nach Deutschland ZU reisen.

"studieren" is rather academic, e.g. majoring in a field. If it's more of a casual evening course it's "lernen".

Yay, Grammar Nazi ... how fitting ;)

Re:Fol the love of God.

[PakProtector]

Unless you're a native German speaker, I would like to inform you that my German Professor seems to disagree with your correction of my above sentences.

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that would be a tad awkward for your professor. That is of course unless it is a lecture in expressionist literature.

I am a native German speaker. Your sentences are easily understandable but just as easily distinguishable as being written by a foreign speaker (prepositions, article, genitive case).

Re:Fol the love of God.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea ... replied to the wrong message I guess. Just pretend http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1595974&cid=31698040 was here.

Nice government contract work

[tomhudson]

government employees who are paid 50 cents RMB per post supporting the government

Outsource it to a spammer or a script kiddie for half that. Even with today's exchange rate, that's still more tha 3 cents a post. A bot farm could reverse the trade deficit.

Average Chinese internet user?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the average Chinese internet user even exist when the government pays thousands of people to forge pro-government opinions and suppress anti-government opinions? More like "the average Chinese government employee plus a few internet users who slipped through the cracks".

Re:Average Chinese internet user?

[maxwell demon]

Does the average Chinese internet user even exist when the government pays thousands of people to forge pro-government opinions and suppress anti-government opinions?

Of course. If the Chinese internet is dominated by people paid for positive comments, it just means that the average Chinese internet user is paid for positive comments.

Re:Average Chinese internet user?

[Anonymous Coward]

internet user != vocal comment poster

There might be one paid comment poster writing 1000s of comments per day for every 1000 real internet users who are too afraid to post their opinions, whose comments get drowned in the flood of paid spam or who simply don't care about comments.

By your logic, the average internet user would be a viagra salesman. After all, without sophisticated counter-measures 99,9% of all comments would be spam.

Yes, yes, the title.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, maybe when the Chinese internet turns into the Chinese LAN, they can have huge Chinese LAN parties! Of course, these LAN parties will have to be harmonized by the government and consist of 72 hours of back to back dota, counter-strike, and wow. Coincidentally, the Chinese government is also interested in recruiting new operators for their virtual soldiers.

Re:Yes, yes, the title.

[maxwell demon]

Hey, maybe when the Chinese internet turns into the Chinese LAN, they can have huge Chinese LAN parties! Of course, these LAN parties will have to be harmonized by the government and consist of 72 hours of back to back dota, counter-strike, and wow. Coincidentally, the Chinese government is also interested in recruiting new operators for their virtual soldiers.

The Chinese cannot have LAN parties because there's only one party allowed, the communist party.

Re:Yes, yes, the title.

[fishexe]

Hey, maybe when the Chinese internet turns into the Chinese LAN, they can have huge Chinese LAN parties! Of course, these LAN parties will have to be harmonized by the government and consist of 72 hours of back to back dota, counter-strike, and wow. Coincidentally, the Chinese government is also interested in recruiting new operators for their virtual soldiers.

The Chinese cannot have LAN parties because there's only one party allowed, the communist party.

False. Other parties are allowed, they just can't take opposition political stances or compete with the CCP in elections. If your LAN party was gonna do those things, then that's one boring-ass LAN party.

Chinese LAN?

[maxwell demon]

I don't think China is so small that you could call it a local area.
NAN (Nation Area Network) would seem to fit more.

Re:Chinese LAN?

[bickerdyke]

NaN?
"Not A Network"?

Re:Chinese LAN?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not a Nerd.
Sorry but this may not be the site with news for you.

Re:Chinese LAN?

[shutdown -p now]

Put the Chinese on their own little internet

For most intents and purposes, they already are. Their most popular search engine is Chinese, and so is IM and webmail. In fact, the majority of people using Internet in China don't even know English.

So, if you think it is somehow a serious threat, think again.

Re:Chinese LAN?

[clone53421]

Nah, they need contact with the rest of the world. If nothing else, I bet their government would be quite upset if it had no internet connectivity to the rest of the world.

They may spend 99% of their time connecting to sites within China, but the 1% that isn’t is important.

Sure sure, yeah yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

ask a bunch of illiterate farmers who were literally eating straw just yesterday, what they think of this newfangled thing called government, most were surprised the emperor was dead

The site is down

[cciRRus]

Either due to the Slashdot effect, or actions taken by the CPC.

Re:The site is down

[Stenchwarrior]

It's there, just slow.

Cyber attack

[Le Marteau]

It was probably the cyber attack that was the last straw. The PRC probably did unload on Google with all the hacking power they could afford, and Google went, "fuck this shit, we're outta here".

I'd bet any amount of money on it.

Re:Cyber attack

[Vectormatic]

if any of those "China could bankrupt the US with all their dollars" stories has any truth to it, i dont think google would be any match for all the hacking power china can afford.

Doesnt mean that china deliberately struck google, but i seriously doubt they went all out

Interesting

[sonicmerlin]

You know it's weird. I'm actually in Japan right now, living in a dorm with a lot of Chinese foreign students. One of them told me how his father was actually one of the students at Tiananmen Square, and after the incident burned a book filled with writings of his classmates so that the government wouldn't find it and record his previous affiliations on his resume.

This guy also tells me how shocked he was after he came to Japan and was finally able to see the Tiananmen videos on Youtube (blocked in China of course), and how it's changed his views of his government. According to him, a lot of Chinese youth are extremely nationalistic, and are "brainwashed" by the government. The government hires people to parrot their views of events as if they're normal citizens telling their own personal viewpoints.

He told me he himself used to like his life in China, but now that he's realized the truth about his government, he'd prefer not to go back to China after his study period in Japan is over.

Not entirely on-topic, and mod me down if you must, but I just thought it was interesting how this Chinese guy has become disconnected from his country and his own people, who seem to be influenced so heavily by their government.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Not entirely on-topic, and mod me down if you must, but I just thought it was interesting how this Chinese guy has become disconnected from his country and his own people, who seem to be influenced so heavily by their government.

You had a Borg at your dorm? Awesome!

Re:Interesting

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

He's also a kid though. Kids tend to be a lot more easy to radicalize because they have don't have as many roots put down yet nor have they been tempered with much in the way of life experiences. Let him marry a nice chinese girl and then he's going to have to start thinking about what its like to raise kids in a country without any family nearby. Chances are he'll also have to raise his family in a mostly foreign culture. Obviously plenty of Chinese people have decided that all that was worth it for the freedom and opportunities available outside of China. But its still a hard decision to make, and plenty of Chinese have decide to go back instead - especially with the growing prosperity back home.

Re:Interesting

[labotux]

Interesting story, but there are hundreds of thousands chinese students studying abroad. How many of them are really shocked about what 'really' happened in 89 and then decide to not return to China afterwards ? Very few and fewer and fewer.

Re:Interesting

[OzPeter]

This also works

You know it's weird. I'm actually in France right now, living in a dorm with a lot of American foreign students. One of them told me how his father was actually one of the students at Kent State. OH, and after the incident burned a book filled with writings of his classmates so that the government wouldn't find it and record his previous affiliations on his resume.

This guy also tells me how shocked he was after he came to France and was finally able to see the Kent State videos on Youtube (blocked in America of course), and how it's changed his views of his government. According to him, a lot of American youth are extremely nationalistic, and are "brainwashed" by the government. The government hires people to parrot their views of events as if they're normal citizens telling their own personal viewpoints.

He told me he himself used to like his life in America, but now that he's realized the truth about his government, he'd prefer not to go back to America after his study period in France is over.

Not entirely on-topic, and mod me down if you must, but I just thought it was interesting how this American guy has become disconnected from his country and his own people, who seem to be influenced so heavily by their government.

The point I am trying to make is that all governments everywhere try to control their populations one way or another

Re:Interesting

[Stenchwarrior]

But at least he was given the chance to make that decision. If he chooses to go back it will be on his own accord; because he was informed of both sides of the coin.

Re:Interesting

[TheKidWho]

Your point is flawed. The Kent state incident is NOT banned on Youtube or anywhere in the web. The government also is not on a mission to track down people who have affiliations with students at the Kent state incident. Not to mention when something like that happens in the USA, the country and government officials are deeply embarrassed by such events which are wildly publicized.

Re:Interesting

[OzPeter]

Your point is flawed. The Kent state incident is NOT banned on Youtube or anywhere in the web.

My point has nothing to do with whether or not Kent State videos are banned or are on yutube. My point has to do with that by substituting any country name and event it is possible to construct a reasonable statement that highlights governmental control by that country. In the case of the USA, I suggest you read up on McCarthyism.

Re:Interesting

[linuxrocks123]

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kent+state+massacre&search_type=&aq=0

If that's not enough, I'm an American, and I was taught about the Kent State massacre in history classes. And no, the presentation of the incident was not blindly supportive of the military. Argument fail.

---linuxrocks123

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Having a populace like China is like being surrounded by Yes Men.

Eventually there will be a problem that everyone believes isn't a problem simply because nothing is being done about it.

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

If you eat shit all your life, you will never know why it's bad, because you never had a taste of anything else, I dare say, you'll even enjoy it.

Re:Interesting

[dbet]

According to him, a lot of Chinese youth are extremely nationalistic, and are "brainwashed" by the government. The government hires people to parrot their views of events as if they're normal citizens telling their own personal viewpoints.

Ah, yeah, we see the same thing in the U.S., even though we have more access to alternative viewpoints. Just replace "government" with "party". Doesn't matter which party, they both do it.

Nothing makes me want to puke more than people repeating left/right talking points as if the idea just came to them.

Re:Interesting

[ArmchairGeneral]

Maybe if enough of these Chinese students see their nation from the other side though, that future generations may (and probably will) influence the development of their country to open up more. I think it's easy for many of us to criticize China for some of it's actions, some are probably correct, others are more of a viewpoint. But I think it's inevitable that China will eventually open up. I can think of several regimes that have tried to 'isolate' themselves from the rest of the world or control their citizens, but there comes a time when they can no longer hold back change.

Re:Interesting

[Idiomatick]

Well it was a silly point since kent state videos aren't banned in us anyways (AFAIK). The rest of it is totally true. I'm sure you could probably think of a video that fits other than kent state too.

Good Lord not ChinaSMACK

[DNS-and-BIND]

ChinaSMACK is a shit-stirring blog that posts only the most sensational crap that they can find. Their favorite topic is driving a wedge between "Chinese" and "foreigners". Extreme opinions from random internet jerkwads are presented as representative of opinion. It's like browsing slashdot at -1 and translating the posts into Chinese - you start with crap, you end up with crap. The only fun part of the site is watching P.C. westerners get offended in the English comments, and then calling them racists because they're criticizing Chinese people because they're, well, Chinese. It's fun watching the "b-b-but I'm not a racist!" head exploding reactions.

Re:Good Lord not ChinaSMACK

[TheRealQuestor]

so you mean it's kind of like China's version of /. ?

Re:Good Lord not ChinaSMACK

[djluo]

well, here is China's version of /. http://solidot.org/

Re:Good Lord not ChinaSMACK

[grumpyman]

That's exactly what I'm thinking - a lot of the +5 here are really -1 on that site then.

Re:Good Lord not ChinaSMACK

[grumpyman]

Seriously, what's all about this site??? Look similar, same icons....etc.? Is there a Chinese CowboyLi and CmdrRicewrap?

Re:Good Lord not ChinaSMACK

[Civil_Disobedient]

ChinaSMACK is a shit-stirring blog that posts only the most sensational crap that they can find.

For those of us who do not have perfect fluency in Chinese--which is what you need if you're going to understand all the in-jokes--ChinaSMACK is a fucking godsend. It's one of the few places on the 'net where you can get at least a glimpse into the inner workings of the brains of Chinese youth.

No one is stopping you from starting your own website, you know. Make sure you not only translate everything, but also put little mouse-over triggers for common words and in-jokes so the comments are actually understandable.

Re:Good Lord not ChinaSMACK

[pythonist]

Agree. If you think the translated Chinese comments from KDS forum on ChinaSMACK represent what the majority of Chinese people think, you are horribly wrong. Read the racist nonsense from the same group of people on ChinaSMACK:

http://www.chinasmack.com/stories/shanghai-black-girl-lou-jing-racist-chinese-netizens/

Re:Good Lord not ChinaSMACK

[Anonymous Coward]

I will be damned if this is "the inner workings of the brains of Chinese youth". I am native Chinese and I can tell you the content on that site is highly offensive to any one who has the slightest decency.

Re:Good Lord not ChinaSMACK

[djluo]

A Chinese guy named Li Guowei, CdrPlum founded that site, he also translated slashdot's source code "slashcode" into Chinese. Lately, that site was sold to CNET.
Most stuff on that site is just a copy of slashdots' which translated to Chinese. But, still there is something from some other Chinese sites.

BBC Take on this.

[Anonymous Coward]

The BBC has an article up which is slightly less inflammatory than this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8583006.stm

Ministry of Truth

[Anonymous Coward]

they were able to obtain many comments by those critical of the government before they could be 'harmonized' (deleted)

1984 was only 26 years early.

Evil companies do the same

[GNUPublicLicense]

Indeed, many evil companies are doing similar. For instance, as a GNU/Linux fan, I can see "the pressure" done on some "under the spot" forums related to open source. Moreover there were naughty rumors (in France) about some companies (or their well-known proxies) hiring students on internship-level pay to lobby on those forums. Personnally, I do believe that the reality is way uglier.

Nice discreditation work :)

[dragisha]

This wumao touch.

Makes you wonder how much does HR-zealoting pay in western markets. Maybe I can try to get some work on these lines.

Chinese netizens divided over Google move

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinese netizens divided over Google move
23 March 2010
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8582556.stm

"China has condemned US giant Google's move to stop censoring search results and direct its users to an unrestricted Hong Kong site - effectively shutting its mainland Chinese search service. But what do Chinese netizens make of it?

There is sharp division between the reactions from Chinese internet users on websites that lie inside and outside Chinese government censorship.

The vast majority of the comments and blogs on Chinese mainland websites appear to express hate and anger towards Google.

But tweets and comments that appear to come from users in mainland China on websites based outside the country express sympathy and support towards Google, and anger towards the Chinese government. ...

MAINLAND WEBSITES

Source: www.163.com re: Google exits China

"This kind of company should definitely be cleansed from China! Don't give it any opportunity to do business in China! Do you still assume that we are in the era of the Eight-Power Allied Forces [the intervention by eight nations to end the 1900 Boxer rebellion]?"

"The power, status and reputation of a country is unshakable. You are just a company that came to China not long ago and you are expecting special privileges? Nuts!"

"Get out! I have never used that fart Google. Boycott the American products!"

Source: www.sina.com.cn re: Google exits China

"Just go away. Don't come back! Hong Kong is also a part of China. Don't stay in Hong Kong."

Source: www.qq.com re: Google exits China

"National interest is above everything. Without the nation nothing will stand. Anyone who insults China is insulting over one billion Chinese people. Stand up Chinese people! Probably Google was here just to cause destruction and destroy Chinese unity."

Source: www.sohu.com re: Google exits China

"We still have Baidu.com. I don't use much Google to start with. Just go. Who cares? Without it, China's internet will become better in the future."

"We welcome the exit of Google from China. We allowed you to earn so much money, and you still caused all this fuss. If you don't want to abide by Chinese laws, just go away! Hong Kong is also a part of China, so you shouldn't stay in Hong Kong either. Google is just a global thug of the US imperialists."

WEBSITES OUTSIDE THE CHINESE MAINLAND

Source: Google Buzz by Frank

"Google leaving China is a tragedy. Whose tragedy is it? Google's? Or China's? Or a tragedy for the Chinese internet users? China is one step nearer a closed door. Closure will lead to backwardness, and those who are backward will be beaten up. This is the lesson that our predecessors have learned with bloodshed. It is a tragedy for the whole nation."

Source: Google Buzz by Jia Jia

"The exit of Google has nothing to do with good or evil. A foreign company does not have the responsibility of helping China to become transparent and free. The praise, accusations and expectations are just reflections of our own conditions."

Source: Twitter re: Google exits China

"Hello everyone, Train Line Harmony reminds you that passenger Google has been kicked out of the train due to its violation of train regulations. Passengers on board please abide by the regulations, shut the curtains tight and do not watch the scenery outside. The train will turn back soon. Next stop Pyongyang."
"

Instead of google.com.hk

[quickgold192]

If Google *really* wanted to rock the boat, it should have redirected Chinese visitors to www.google.com.tw.

I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and she

[BlackBloq]

I was in a hot tube with a Chinese national and she was sooooooo convinced that Taiwan is "owned" by China and she basically parroted the party line down to every illogical point. She was fresh off the boat, I would like to see her opinion after she gets to see an unfiltered reality, without paid fake people telling her a fake reality. The Chinese government even tracks its own dissidents, and plants undercover agents inside of the groups while out of country! It's like they live in the matrix! Time to unplug meatbags, don't fear the truth!

Re:China is China....

[OldHawk777]

The Great Virtual Wall of Imperial China with the fire-gates closed and well guarded keeps the Imperial City of politicians safe and secure for a thousand years.

China is China.

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[aflag]

Interesting. I was in bed with this Chineses national, wearing nothing but a banana hammock, and she told me how she loves China. She began arguing quite unlogically that freedom isn't everything and that she likes that the government is taking care that she only reads what's important. She argued that their slashdot doesn't have any trolls and everyone is insightful or interesting.

After that we began to talk about free software and things just got out of hands. Time to taste the freedom! I told her while I opened a laptop with Debian Linux running. She was quite unreasonable about it and left. They are all brain washed, I tell you!

Chinese LAN?

[clone53421]

Great idea. Really.

Put the Chinese on their own little internet until their government starts behaving in a sensible way. See how long it takes. Yes, it’ll be painful but I have a feeling it won’t take long.

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[aok]

If she's that brainwashed I'm not sure she can easily change her opinion.

A while back, there was a Slashdot story about a Debian developer quitting because Debian decided to include a locale option for Taiwan. I think that developer lived outside of China so wasn't subjected to censorship anymore...I think he was living in Australia. In any case, a single option buried amongst hundreds that pissed him enough to make him quit. Then there was a slashdot poster that got upset/defensive at how the discussions about it were going and lashed out writing how non-Chinese people would "never" be able to understand why China would be willing to go to war (and therefore have people on either side die) just to own Taiwan.

ChenTV?

[Stenchwarrior]

So the people living in China are really just living a true-life version of the movie "EdTV"?

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[francium de neobie]

I was in a hot tube with a Chinese national and she

Wait... this is... Slashdot? *head explodes*

The Chen Show

[Stenchwarrior]

Mod me down for being stupid...I meant "The Truman Show".

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[ProfBooty]

I've had this conversation with other chinese.

I ask them, don't you need a visa to go there and other questions of similar ilk.

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese government even tracks its own dissidents, and plants undercover agents inside of the groups

It's not as though any other government doesn't do that.
What many other government don't do nearly as much is lock up or disappear political dissidents.

Google gets Great Wall treatment

[wrencherd]

The response this morning (3/25) seems to be that someone has unplugged Google/gmail.

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[NeoSkandranon]

I'm guessing you got the equivalent of "la la la i can't hear youuuu" ?

Google wins by PR I guess.

[DerekLyons]

The problem is, Google hasn't actually left China - they're still doing business there.

Re:Google wins by PR I guess.

[pythonist]

What they have done was keeping other businesses (music search, gmail, etc) untouched, just moved the search engine's servers from China to another part of China. The R&D team and adv team are still hiring local people.

It's called the Mandate of Heaven

[alispguru]

Google it for yourself. Basically, as long as most things go well for most people in China, the government will be seen as legitimate. If, say, the economic expansion stops, or there is a recession, people will start to question the legitimacy of their rulers. Democracy allows that questioning to happen without a civil war.

I hope he can FIND a nice Chinese girl

[alispguru]

Given the current generation's sex imbalance, that is.

Re:I was hot with a Chinese national

[BigBlueOx]

Interesting. I was in a hammock with a Chinese national and a banana and she said she loves China because everyone there uses Gnome instead of KDE. I said that freedom was everything which is why I use a Mac and an iPhone. She called me a stupid Europig and left. You just can't reason with those people. They're all brainwashed.

Universal health care was never on the table

[walterbyrd]

I am not sure if people fully understand this. Many Americans oppose the present health care bill, but that does not mean that the same Americans would not welcome universal health care.

The insurance companies are in control. US politicians essentially work for the major corporations. The US public has no say in the matter.

Chinese LAN?

[jonadab]

> worry that the Chinese Internet will become a Chinese LAN

Wouldn't that be a WAN? I could be a little fuzzy on the exact details, but what I do remember of geography suggests China may be a little larger than the figure usually quoted for the length limits on LAN cabling.

Instructions for CCP trolls

[andy1307]

China's instructions on reporting on Google
All chief editors and managers:
Google has officially announced its withdrawal from the China market. This is a high-impact incident. It has triggered netizens' discussions which are not limited to a commercial level. Therefore please pay strict attention to the following content requirements during this period:
A. News section:
1. Only use Central Government main media (website) content; do not use content from other sources.
2. Reposting must not change title.
3. News recommendations should refer to Central government main media websites.
4. Do not produce relevant topic pages; do not set discussion sessions; do not conduct related investigative reporting.
5. Online programs with experts and scholars on this matter must apply for permission ahead of time. This type of self-initiated program production is strictly forbidden.
6. Carefully manage the commentary posts under news items.
B. Forums, blogs and other interactive media sections:
1. It is not permitted to hold discussions or investigations on the Google topic.
2. Interactive sections do not recommend this topic, do not place this topic and related comments at the top.
3. All websites please clean up text, images and sound and videos which attack the Party, State, government agencies, Internet policies with the excuse of this event.
4. All websites please clean up text, images and sound and videos which support Google, dedicate flowers to Google, ask Google to stay, cheer for Google and others have a different tune from government policy.
5. On topics related to Google, carefully manage the information in exchanges, comments and other interactive sessions.
6. Chief managers in different regions please assign specific manpower to monitor Google-related information; if there is information about mass incidents, please report it in a timely manner.
We ask the Monitoring and Control Group to immediately follow up monitoring and control actions along the above directions; once any problems are discovered, please communicate with respected sessions in a timely manner.
Addition[al] guidelines:
-- Do not participate in and report Google's information/press releases.
-- Do not report about Google exerting pressure on our country via people or events.
-- Related reports need to put [our story/perspective/information] in the center, do not provide materials for Google to attack relevant policies of our country.
-- Use talking points about Google withdrawing from China published by relevant departments.

You lie!

[drougie]

Most if not all of the comments in this thing that aren't defending the government or just attacking Google for involving themselves in politics and breaking laws only make minor concessions that Google is a "little less trash" than Baidu in terms of functionality and advertisements. If I were their government I wouldn't have crafted those comments any differently. Even if ChinaSMACK is apparently in the US, would it not be in there interests to go a little soft on the Chinese government? Just a little? C'mon. Ten bucks says they're not blocked by the Great Firewall even though Google Blogs is.

I did my own research interviewing Chinafolk. Granted I was using Google Buzz and so were they but still. Read it. Without flying to Shanghai or wardialing internationally for opinions that might be about the closest you can get to the truth in this matter.

There will never be democracy in China

[superyanthrax]

The day there is "democracy" in China, there will be an American flag flying over Tiananmen Square, and that day will never come in a million years. "Democracy", "freedom", and "human rights" are merely code words for American imperialism. They will freely support brutal dictators when it suits their interests, while discrediting and undermining free elections that result in an unfriendly government. Remember Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar were once on the CIA's payroll and lauded as "freedom fighters", while Saddam Hussein was once a staunch American ally. But the American Empire will never succeed in conquering China.

WAKE UP

[Funk_dat69]

You started off so balanced and well-meaning and ended up a total hypocrite.

as for "Europeans consider Americans as inexplicably stupid". Yeah, we pretty much do,

Well maybe Americans consider Europeans self-righteous, moral snobs, but that's of no consequence when you are one.

Remember many Americans are cast-offs from the voluminous past failures of Europe. Being a cast-off, it's not hard to have your morals and values switch around a bit. Americans value freedom, family, god, and local community over national community for this reason. National community failed a great many of us.

So the next time you want to call someone 'inexplicably stupid' for having a different set a values, think again.

Re:WAKE UP

[Alphathon]

I wasn't meaning that generally, but in relation to the topic of health care, which is how it was used by the parent to my comment. It may apply to other topics as well, but that's not what was being discussed. I wasn't calling Americans generally inexplicably stupid, but pointing out that over here, that is how it appears in relation to this issue. This is also not representative of Americans, but of the Americans who are against the health care bill. It just so happens that they are the ones how we hear the most about, as the debate seems split down the middle, and they oppose what is generally accepted over here.

Are Chinese happy with their government?

[walterbyrd]

Many posters here have indicated that most Chinese are happy with their government. I don't know, but I would have a few questions:

1) If that is true, then why all the censorship? Are Chinese only happy because they don't know any better?

2) If Chinese are so happy with their government, then why are they not allowed to freely leave?

3) What about the sweatshop workers? Would they be happy with their jobs if they knew about work conditions for the typical western worker?

I have never been there, and I am not a student of Chinese culture. I am just trying to understand.

Re:Are Chinese happy with their government?

[Anonymous Coward]

My 0.02 cents:

1) In the Chinese education system, there is no where we can learn about free thinking. So yes, you can pretty much say ignorance is bliss.

2) That's why the government is always fanning nationalism so that leaving means something negative. However, to be fair, many Chinese students have been allowed to study and work abroad.

3) The alternative is usually working in the field. So at least for now, the government can still claim to have improved people's lives.

50 Cent party...

[mamono]

Wouldn't that be more something like this? This is how we do it, when we do it
Like we just wanna tear the club up
We do it like there ain't nothin' to it
The way we do it, now everybody put your fuckin' hands up!
Lets Go!

Chinese LAN??! WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

How are they going to play Starcraft 2 without Internet access?

Damn you Blizzard!

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[Anonymous Coward]

>Time to taste the freedom! I told her while I opened a laptop with Debian Linux running. She was quite unreasonable about it and left. They are all brain washed, I tell you!

Well that's your problem right there. You should have been running Slackware or FreeBSD.

In communist China,

[faridx82]

people searches google!

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[Anonymous Coward]

...I would like to see her opinion after she gets to see an unfiltered reality, without paid fake people telling her a fake reality. ...

There is no unfiltered reality. If you are talking about US news media, then they are very (self) censored. Not that any news media in any country tells the whole truth, but the US news media is seriously fucked up when it comes to reporting some inconvinient facts. It doesnt matter if it's Fox News or The Huffington Post, they all show the same kind of bias. US entertainment media is of course mostly bullshit.

But even if you try to put things together from different sources around the world, or even from self experience, you still have to struggle with the reality filtering (prejudice) that takes part inside your brain.

Just like parental control

[scwks]

China needs Internet censorship for the same reason that parents limit porn exposure to their children. Except that the targeted people in China are politically immature. Just look at what happened in the Great Revolution. These are people who has not developed the judgment and thinking skills that you and I have. Showing "inappropriate" content to them is harmful (or not) in the same way that showing porn to a kid does. Would someone think of the Children!

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[wrencherd]

I was a hot tube in a Chinese national

There, fixed that for you.

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[fishexe]

I was in a hot tube with a Chinese national...

You mean one of these? I'm surprised you both fit!