Heroes of Newerth Open Beta About To Start

You may recall last summer when we discussed Heroes of Newerth, a title from S2 Games that's based on the popular Defense of the Ancients mod from Warcraft III. We passed out some closed beta keys, and there seemed to be a ton of interest, in part due to the fact that they have a Linux client. Well, if any of you missed it or want to see how the game has progressed since then, now is your chance — the open beta begins tonight (March 31). There's a countdown on the sign-up page that shows when you can register.

Comments

Awesome!

[ezbo]

I have been one of the lucky closed beta testers, and I can tell you that the least people I've seen online was 38,000. ragequits and no-stat try-hards FTW!!!

Re:Awesome!

[dunezone]

There are three games out there right now that follow the original gameplay style of Defense of the Ancients from Waracraft 3

League of Legends
Heros of Newerth
Demigod

League of Legends is by far the easiest to start with if you havent played the original DOTA. Easy matchmaking system, the ingame item system is very friendly to figure out what does what and how to scale items, way better then Heros of Newerth or Demigod. The developers have been very supportive of the game, theres typically a new hero added to the game every 6 weeks or so. Unfortunately on a hero release the character is usually over-powered but fixed within a week or so. Theres complaints about balance issues but thats because League of Legends is based on teamwork and not that one man Rambo which is seen in HoN or DOTA. A team that works together can easily take out the 5 man team that act like Rambos.

Demigod has fallen off the face of the map since the game was extremely buggy and multiplayer didnt work for several weeks after launch. Also, I believe the developers have only added 1 single hero to the game so far in about a year and a half of release? I gave up on this game after the developer wrote a four page paper about how they fixed the multiplayer and the steps they took, it was posted on Slashdot some time ago. They never really fixed it and it was still laggy and performance would drop late game when the creeps would over-take the map causing games to go to a crawl, crash, lag out.

Heros of Newerth is definitely not for those who have never played the DOTA style of gameplay. The crowd that plays HoN is extremely serious and will eat you alive if you screw around or suck. This is the games main problem because it really turns people away from playing it and its not the developers fault its a community problem. What I like about HoN though is that the game is way more stable then LOL (LOL uses a launcher which can crap out a lot) and its built on the foundation of competitive gameplay with features lacking from the other games, Observation mode, blind pick, one by one pick, etc.

Re:Awesome!

[ottothecow]

How exactly can you make sweeping generalizations about the crowd that plays HoN when the game is still in a relatively small closed beta.

The people who get into and play betas tend to be the people most interested and devoted to the game--they have probably played a lot of DoTA--Basshunter is probably happily playing away. The rush of noobs won't hit until the launch (although there will be more people joining in tonight).

Re:Awesome!

[dunezone]

How exactly can you make sweeping generalizations about the crowd that plays HoN when the game is still in a relatively small closed beta.

"Heroes of Newerth is currently in Closed Beta with over 1,000,000 users registered."

This is pulled from Wikipedia which source is linked directly to the HoN forums. 1 million users is not a relatively small closed beta.

Re:Awesome!

[devnull17]

I got a HoN beta key a few months ago and played for a month or two. Based on my impressions, the OP is spot-on in his observations about the community. It's actually most of the reason I don't play anymore.

To put this in context, I led a fairly hardcore WoW raiding guild for a couple of years, and played Magic Online semi-seriously for a while. I have a pretty thick skin. I'm very familiar with the concepts of nerd rage and sexual frustration made manifest over the Internet. It's worse in HoN than anywhere else I've seen it. The game's lack of a proper matchmaking system is partially to blame, but as the OP said, a lot of it does fall on the community.

For people who have never played HoN, it's a very complex game. There are almost a hundred characters to choose from, each with a unique set of stats and abilities. Compounding this, there are dozens of different items that you can purchase over the course of a game, and each character has its own "build order"--what the community considers to be the optimal strategy for playing a given character. Learning this for even a handful of characters is a massive undertaking, but many types of matches don't let you choose which character you'll end up playing, or even restrict the options that much. The rules of the game also very heavily punish a team for having one sub-par member--if your opponents figure out where you're weak and exploit it successfully, the balance of the game will tip very quickly.

The result of all this is that the game heavily rewards people who spend the time to learn it, and by the same token, severely punishes people who haven't invested that level of commitment. Which is great if you think HoN is your life's calling. But for those of us who play casually, well, you can only have your sexual orientation questioned in Portuguese so many times before you decide there are more constructive things you could be doing with your free time.

Long story short: HoN's community is unusually hardcore and unfriendly, and will certainly be an impediment to the game's mainstream adoption if certain issues are not addressed.

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Cowpat]

I agree, the community sucks, but I think the other problem with HoN is that they seem to have identified the worst elements of DotA, and then magnified them. I got into the closed beta, played about 7 games, and gave up. DotA started to go downhill a few months after TFT came out. I was hoping that a brand new implementation of the game might return to the core elements which made it so good, wihout any of the crappy 'pro' stuff which just made in unplayable, and it hasn't.

Re:Awesome!

[PachmanP]

HoN is a great game if you want to learn racial slurs in new languages. It's good fun if you can play with friends until you get up to speed. Although, if you have friends that are the "controller thrower" archtype maybe pass on inviting them. It's as addictive as crack. You get pissed off at the game and the community and uninstall it, and find yourself needing a fix a week later...

Re:Awesome!

[hereonslashdot]

So, I've played around 200 games of Heroes of Newerth and many games of DotA before that. While I admittedly play as many games with friends as possible (don't we all?) only about half of my games played fall in that category. That's a solid 100 games in the "community".

Are there internet a-holes? We all know the answer is yes, but I've only had about 5 games out of all those played where it was an issue. I also am not one to rage personally, so maybe that helps. In those rare cases, the game gives you the following tools:
-"/ignore chat"
-Voice Chat MUTE
-and a banlist so you never need to play with that person again.

Did everyone notice that mention of BUILT IN voice chat? This is immensely helpful - if only everyone turned it on...

The other thing worth noting to those who have complained, is that there are numerous opportunities to learn in safer environments.
-A tutorial that will show you the basics
-the ability to host your own games with the requirements you want/need
-game modes that let you pick exactly the hero you want (you can even host a duplicate hero game mode if you only have one hero you're decent with)
-a Practice Mode that lets you well...practice
-no-stats games that lower overall anxiety
-forums that include an entire section devoted to help "Training Grounds" as well as many excellent gameplay guides: general guides, specific hero guides, laning, warding, etc
-clans and people who are specifically dedicated to helping new players, also found through the forums.
I'm not sure why some people fail to utilize these resources...and I do heartily believe that the game would benefit from a Tutorial that guides you to more advanced gameplay as well as a single player AI mode.

The games I've seen where someone becomes a potential target of rage usually go down with them not using in game chat, not talking over voice, voice chat sound off, and completely ignoring their team. This is very much a team game, quite the opposite of the earlier comment that it is possible to "one man Rambo" - this is not the case and when people do that it is natural to be frustrated. (No excuses for some of the silly ways people act when they're frustrated, see above comment on tools built into the game to deal with those scenarios.)

To be fair, the current environment (beta) allows people to create multiple accounts - thereby letting them avoid some of the infractions that might result. For example, e-peenrager2211 gets banned by me and I think I won't ever have to play with him again. He reapplies to the beta and creates account emotionallyunderdeveloped7899 and turns up in one of my games. Annoying but unavoidable until solved by official release.

The thing that really distinguishes this game IS the complexity. No matter if there are other games I play, they get old and tired once the novelty wears off. This game, precisely because of it's complexity, is one that I (and a group of about 15 friends) continue to play over the past 5(!) years (when you include DotA). While it will take a while to learn all the details - I'm STILL learning and happy for that - it is well worth it.

I've joined the beta ..

[PIBM]

bought it to support them, played a while but stopped for 6 months since it was too unbalanced and not buggy enough to warrant beta testing, and just came back to it a few days ago. The game has progressed a lot and it's very fun to play :)

Re:I've joined the beta ..

[someone1234]

What do you think when should unbalancedness be fixed?
I hazard a guess, it is beta testing with a relatively large number of actual players.

Re:I've joined the beta ..

[TheKidWho]

Yes, they had a little trick on their website where you could simply gift yourself a copy of the game to get into closed beta.

Re:I've joined the beta ..

[nacturation]

bought it to support them, played a while but stopped for 6 months since it was too unbalanced and not buggy enough to warrant beta testing

So, although it was unbalanced, the game was too bug-free for your liking?

just came back to it a few days ago. The game has progressed a lot...

I take it they introduced sufficient bugs that you now consider it buggy enough?

Re:I've joined the beta ..

[delinear]

Beta testing isn't just about the game - it can also be about people's attitudes towards it. If a large enough percentage of people quit playing because it's not fun for balance reasons, sure that's not as useful as if they stay and help resolve the balance issues, but it's valuable information nevertheless which help shape the game for the public beta - from the sounds of it according to GP this approach is working.

Re:I've joined the beta ..

[PIBM]

Jackass ? Idiot ?

I did my share of testing, made known of my concerns and took a stand on the forums. I did a few suggestions, but by then I was not enjoying playing the game at all. I was mostly hoping to help find bugs, which was not really possible anymore. Every idiot could then complaint and flame on the forums...

So I did what was best for both me and them, I stopped it at that, but not before encouraging them by buying a copy of the game. Early monetary support is often much more important than one more guy getting flamed on the forums.

So, again, why should I have kept playing if I had no fun in it ? Did I gave them my soul for entering the beta or something ?

Anyway..

Already a DOTA replacement

[Mutio]

Not trying to advertise but League of Legends is a very solid clone of DOTA. There is no Linux (sorry slashdot) but it is fairly well balanced.

Re:Already a DOTA replacement

[KahabutDieDrake]

League of Legends is a superior game in most respects, and it's from the same people that made the original DOTA mod. It also has a better payment model with reasonable micro transactions. But no content is cut off from free players, they just have to play longer to get it.

Re:Already a DOTA replacement

[Dragonslicer]

League of Legends is a superior game in most respects, and it's from the same people that made the original DOTA mod.

When you say original, do you mean the real original, or the horribly unbalanced piece of crap that was made by people that had nothing to do with the original that came after that?

Re:Already a DOTA replacement

[Anonymous Cowpat]

in my experience HoN has little to do with individual skill, it's just about having the right hero for the opponent - it's classic rock-paper-scissors balancing, which doesn't work in a game where you pick your hero at the start and have to use it all the way through. It's like playing best of 3 rounds rock-paper-scissors where you have to stick with your original choice for all 3 rounds.

Re:Already a DOTA replacement

[Sparr0]

It's like playing the best of 30 rounds of rock-paper-scissors where you have to stick with your original choice for all 30 rounds but get to swap places with your neighbors between rounds if you see their opponent making the throw that you know you can beat.

Be warned, the community is noxious

[Rix]

I had a closed beta invite early on, but the community is angry, rude and just spoil the game.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[Anonymous Coward]

same impression here. there isn't a tutorial to speak of, and the community will throw you out in 5 minutes when they see you will lower their performance statistics. The times you are kicked out also limit what games you can play, so unless there is a 'training' single player mode, I think I just bought it to support them developing Linux clients. Too bad.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[malakai]

There's a tutorial now, and an auto-matching making service for solo players ( you get dumped with 9 others into a 5v5).

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[Celarnor]

I had a closed beta invite early on, but the community is angry, rude and just spoil the game.

Echo this. I was lucky enough to get into the closed beta a few weeks ago, when one of my friends sent me an invite key. There was no tutorial when I started (though there's one now), so I just went into a no stats game. The people there, and in most HoN games, seem to be just generally mean, elitist people who votekick at a moment's notice when another player doesn't exhibit some tidbit of knowledge that they're supposed to have acquired. This is really bad in HoN, since those votekicks affect your ability to play legitimate games. So, if you know a lot about DoTA, good game. Otherwise, stay away from it unless you know other people in meatspace that can help you out.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[sortius_nod]

Wow, that's the complete opposite to LoL. No vote kick, just a vote surrender.

If you bail from the game, you can't reenter a new game until the one you initially entered has finished. You can reenter the game you were in though.

Seems a bit elitist for me, I think I'll stick to LoL then.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[Celarnor]

There's a vote to concede in HoN, too, but that seems to be used more when people leave the game and don't reconnect, or towards the end when the winner is obvious, not so much as a "The hell with this team, we're done" button.

I had never heard about LoL until after this thread--probably something for me to look into. I like the 'dungeon crawler' feel, but as the GGP said, the community is quite noxious, and it's not really the type of game one can learn by soloing everything on the map in practice mode.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[Alystair]

I fully support watching the tutorial and reading strategy guides online (the ones from DOTA might apply as well , however as it stands the "match making" system still requires tweaking and can cause much angst. I'd recommend playing the low level public games if you don't know what you're doing and wait until they fix the quirks in match making, as it stands public games work perfectly but MM games have issues with leavers.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[erikina]

I'm not sure about spoil, but definitely leave a bad impression. I started playing Heroes of Newerth without any DotA experience, and I can say the learning curve was STEEP, and people definitely hurled a lot of abuse at me (well, I was "letting the team down" and in hindsight, ruined a lot of games (they're normally 5 people vs 5, so one person learning is a huge disadvantage). That said, after I learnt how to play; and my stats got lower (which reflected the fact I was bad, the game became a lot more enjoyable. What they really need is a tutorial (which they have now implemented) and (forced) beginner games to classify people, and make sure they play with people their own skill level. After it's all said and done, it's a fantastic game -- and I highly recommend everyone give it a try. (And it runs great in Linux, which was the thing that got me hooked and preorder)

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[Grym]

Echo this. I was lucky enough to get into the closed beta a few weeks ago, when one of my friends sent me an invite key. There was no tutorial when I started (though there's one now), so I just went into a no stats game. The people there, and in most HoN games, seem to be just generally mean, elitist people who votekick at a moment's notice when another player doesn't exhibit some tidbit of knowledge that they're supposed to have acquired. This is really bad in HoN, since those votekicks affect your ability to play legitimate games. So, if you know a lot about DoTA, good game. Otherwise, stay away from it unless you know other people in meatspace that can help you out.

I want you to imagine yourself going down to a bustling inner-city basketball court, joining a competitive 5 vs.5 pick-up game, and then asking your teammates how to dribble. What do you think would happen? How do you think they would react? Now, imagine weeks/months later that you've gotten better. What is the appropriate response when other players start poking fun at you, talk trash, get fired-up, or act generally immature / politically-incorrect? If your answer is to never play basketball again, then you're really missing out...

Culture shock. The DOTA community is severely misunderstood. Though it may not be apparent to newcomers, Heroes of Newerth / DOTA is a very complex, dynamic game that heavily rewards quick reflexes, individual skill/knowledge, and teamwork. Matches are routinely won or lost by a split-second mistake of even a single skilled player. Conversely, a well-coordinated team will steamroll disorganized groups of individually superior players. In short, it is a game that demands a lot from players. The resulting community reflects this. They expect a lot from each other, and can be quite a prickly bunch. I liken the atmosphere to that of a sports locker room. As mean and fired-up as people can get, it's all in good fun. The best way to get someone off your back is to dish it back at them. Toughen up. (Yes, we know it's just a game. No... Nobody actually thinks that you have Downs Syndrome...)

What I often see leading to conflict and the aspect of the game that I see new players struggle with the most is that everything a player does--and DOESN'T do--matters. To be more concrete, take team communication for example. In most games, it is sufficient to just tell your teammates what you're doing--kudos if you tell them what you see the enemy doing as well. That doesn't work in DOTA; the map is too large and the battles too furious and quick for that. In other words, even exemplary communication skills for other games will get teammates killed, strengthen (i.e. "feed") the opposition, and potentially ruin the game. The only solution is for players to take their communications one step further by also letting their teammates know (within seconds) what the enemy ISN'T doing, most notably by "calling missing."

Once you understand the above, it becomes obvious why the DOTA community has the bad reputation that it does. Maybe some of that reputation is well-deserved, I don't know. What I can say for sure, though, is that once you get into it, it is a blast. No other game has captured my imagination, driven me further, and consistently offered something new like DOTA has. And I've been playing for years...

My advice: If you are considering playing HON or have just gotten started, don't let the first impressions of the community stop you.

-Grym

P.S. If any of you noobs do decide to play HON, just don't feed and not call missing if you're on my team. K? ... =)

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[Zironic]

The reputation is well deserved, and it's not in "good fun". The problem is that DotA is designed in such a way that if one team get's a few kills in the beginning, they're almost guaranteed to win. It's impossible for the other 4 people on the team to compensate for the 5th bad player because he's feeding the other team such an extraordinary amount of gold and xp.

In most games playing 4+noob vs 5 is basically like playing 4v5, but with DotA it's more like playing 4v6 once you account for all the extra stuff the other team gets. And since people don't like losing, they get very hostile when they realize that they're in such a situation.

You used the example of a 5v5 basketball pickup game, I used to play those all the time and it didn't matter if one of the players was a noob, what's the worst that can happen? You're never worse off in basketball by playing 4+noob rather then 4 and eventually the player will learn. I've never heard of such a thing as someone insulting new players in conventional sports and if that's the norm in your neighborhood you should really consider moving somewhere where people aren't pricks.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[adam.skinner]

I had the same experience. I stopped playing because the players were douchebags.

I think the game lends itself to that kind of behaviour though: their score is based on how well the team does, and if you die a lot the team suffers and therefore they suffer. It is very unfriendly for noobs, even on "noob games".

The game seemed cool enough, but the people were the worst I've ever experienced. It was simply pervasive.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[ultraexactzz]

It's a great game, and I've had fun with it since they posted the closed beta on Slashdot last year. I'm the sort of player who has the occasional really, really good game - and that makes the complete failures more tolerable. I agree, the community gets pretty worked up over the tiniest things - and may your chosen diety be with you if you have more deaths than kills. It speaks well to the game that the community is so passionate about it, but that may be a disadvantage to new players.

You might want to have a look at www.honcast.com, as well - they broadcast competitive matches between top teams.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[Mongoose Disciple]

In a sense you're both right.

The nature of the game really punishes a team with a bad player, and good players understandably don't want to put up with it.

However, that also gives you an environment that most new players won't want to play in.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[TOGSolid]

True story. I gave HoN a shot in closed beta and was immediately treated to the same level assholery that plagues DotA and kept me from ever actually wanting to play that game online. It's hard to enjoy a game when you're being kicked for "being a noob" all of the damn time. HoN was flooded pretty bad right from the start with that crap, and even LoL and Demigod got inundated with it. It's part of the reason that I only ever played Demigod and DotA vs bots.

The DotA and DotA clone communities make Xbox Live look like a hippy playland where everyone holds hands and sings Kumbaya in harmony.

Re:Be warned, the community is noxious

[brkello]

It is interesting. I played DotA and it has to have the most vile people ever playing the game. It seems to attract the "elitist" type with anger issues.

Eve's community (at least the forums) is pretty legendary for being jerks. People are encouraged to quit and give up their stuff. DotA (and its clones) make Eve look like a bunch of cuddly bunnies that give free hugs.

Dare I say... shameless?

[billsayswow]

Really? I had to do a double-take, both to see if this was in Idle, and then to see if this actually Slashdot, and not some mocked-up promotional. I wouldn't be so grouchy about this if it wasn't for the fact that this hit the front page, and is, relatively, a minor game.

Re:Dare I say... shameless?

[TheCowSaysMooNotBoo]

but ... but ... it's on linux!

Re:Dare I say... shameless?

[lePooch]

Shameless? How is news of this release any different from news on the latest release of Ubuntu or Apache that usually makes the front page? Its all software, and this IS the Gaming section of Slashdot, so it is entirely appropriate that this appears here.

I wouldn't be so grouchy about this if it wasn't for the fact that this hit the front page, and is, relatively, a minor game.

Just a glance at, say, the Apple section of the website shows that stuff like the release of a MINOR browser on the iPhone gets its own article. Why shouldn't the release of a game get a quick front page blurb, especially because the Warcraft map that this is based on is still played by legions of rabid fans (at least where I live)?

On topic however: this game just takes DOTA and adds the extra burden of being forced to make sure your win/loss ratio is always >1, otherwise you get kicked from most games. While I played the beta, I had to create a new account after a while because my W/L and kill/death ratios were causing me to be kicked constantly, even though I had finally gotten used to the system and the heroes. Several other players I know had the same problem. Perhaps it is a sign of the kind of player the closed beta attracted ie. DOTA veterans, and not a symptom of the final game, but it definitely is a stumbling block for new players.

Re:Dare I say... shameless?

[nacturation]

I did a double-take to check that it wasn't either a World of Warcraft clone or expansion. From the website graphic design to the gameplay video, it's not hard to guess where their inspiration came from.

Re:Dare I say... shameless?

[delinear]

Well since both DoTA and WoW have their origins in Warcraft III, it's hardly surprising that they'd have a similar style. I guess they could have done something different just to avoid the obvious comparisons, but that might have changed the feel of the game, and since Warcraft was ripped off from Warhammer, which ripped off everything else in the process, it's far too incestuous a mess for anyone to begin to unravel :)

Re:Already a bad DOTA replacement

[sortius_nod]

Not sure what game you've been playing, but I've had great experiences with this game.

The whole point of these games is to have an imbalance, you work together rather than soloing it... maybe that's your problem.

I do recommend LoL if you're interested. Not sure what HoN is like, but it almost looks identical to LoL apart from some minor interface differences.

Supports Linux

[Andrioid]

I've been playing the beta for a few months on my 64-bit Linux platform that usually gets shafted by game developers. If you liked DotA Allstars on W3x, you will like Heroes of Newerth. Those who played the classic DotA will find this "flashy" and imbalanced, fun though. I also encourage Linux gamers to support those few independent game developers that do support our platform by buying the game.

Re:Supports Linux

[atomic777]

Definitely. Supporting a studio like S2 that independently publishers, and one that develops for linux, is like a double win -- I know that my dollars are going mostly towards the developers, designers and artists, not a bloated layer of marketers, sales, bizdev, etc. etc. that only drive up the cost of most games.

Co-insides with Multiplay I39

[Harribo99]

Its funny this as the announcement of the open beta also co-insides with the UK LAN i39 held by Multiplay http://www.multiplay.co.uk/ where they are holding the first tournament for the game with a potential prize fund of £6250 approx $9400 which is sponsored by S2.

Heroes of Noteworthy..

[Martian_Kyo]

This worth the news simply cause this is one of the few decent looking games for linux.
Any linux purist (i.e. someone who has no dual boot) who likes computer (as opposed to console) games should try this, yes all ten of you.
If not for any other reason then to encourage more developers to do this.
If more developers do this it will indirectly improve code quality, cause programming a multi platform game/software requires a certain level of code quality.
I hope linux and windows client here are developed separately.

I still prefer League Of Legends, mainly for it's more lighthearted design.

Re:Heroes of Noteworthy..

[Korin43]

I'm definitely interested. I like computer games, but gaming isn't worth the pain of using Windows, or the annoyance of dual booting.

I don't really see why developers don't make more games cross platform. Aren't there OpenGL libraries that will work with no changes on Windows + Mac + Linux? I know I've seen sound libraries that do that, so take those two together, and don't write crappy code and your game will be cross platform by default.

Re:Heroes of Noteworthy..

[Trebawa]

It's nice that it's available on Linux, but I still have to play it on Windows because my underspec'd computer can't handle OpenGL 2.0. The Windows version uses DirectX, so it would be nice if the Linux version supported SDL.

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[malakai]

If you can stand the LOL graphics.

Beleive it or not, LOL is more geared to casual gamers. It's not really for the super-competitive demographic HON is geared towards. Last hitting in LOL gets you about 1/2 the gold you would get in HON. Also, LOL gives more gold per tick. Honestly, LOL is like HON with bad graphics on EM (easy mode).

So, LOL is you want an easy learning curve, HON if your willing to put in the time, or you already know all the DOTA characters.

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[sortius_nod]

And this attitude is exactly why people will play LoL over HoN.

Elitist attitudes are never welcome in any game. It's why I will play TF2 & DoD but not CS:S.

DotA legacy

[Andtalath]

HoN is a game which refused to change the game to something new and instead decided that every single decision made by the creators of DotA was sacred.

Does things like last-hitting your own minions an not scaling casters in any meaningful way with money really improve the game?
Heck, they don't even let ranged heroes get life-steal.
The most annoying thing is that getting killed still makes you not only be denied experience, give the opponent team money and experience and increased lane control and increased ganking opportunities, it also makes you lose money.

HoN and DotA on high levels means standing around behind your opponents reach and shooting your own minions, games just drag on and on since no one dares make a move or they will lose what little cash they have scrambled together.

League of Legends, while not linux or even mac compatible at present (might never be linux friendly) and has an awful client actually award teamplay with things like protecting a more dangerous team mate then yourself and dying will win the game as much as the person dealing the damage and you won't get punished for it.
Also, it has an interesting metagame which some state is unfair since you get bonuses outside of the game, but let me tell you, actually being able to build almost any hero almost any way and still be effective thanks to runes and masteries is great fun.

Re:DotA legacy

[Zironic]

Well, it's hardly surprising. A lot of those mechanics were due to how the core WC3 engine worked, and HoN is made by people who when realizing that their own games arn't very popular, wanted to make an exact copy of the rather popular DotA.

League of Legends on the other hand is intended to be a sequel and the developers seems to hope to create something better then DotA rather then just making a clone of something they already did.

Re:DotA legacy

[Flyin Fungi]

uh, there are plenty of changes to this game. Orb stacking change, new heroes, new unique abilities never seen in DoTA (Zephyr), courier abilities, reconnecting, stats, matchmaking, maps, new graphics for well known models, lots of balancing with items. Also your argument (I would say QQing) about casters not scaling in any meaningful way is bullshit. 1) Casters are more powerful early compared to carries and are usually support. 2) Carries (usually agility heroes) are underpowered at the beginning of the game. 3) It is your playground as a caster early game. You do good there, you are likely going to win. 4) Like hell you don't scale well. Zeus from DotA scaled to do more damage as everyone else got more powerful. There are lots of examples. 5) Caters are usually support. It's like you're complaining that you choose a cleric to heal in a MMO and can't dps well now. That is what is great, after 1 game you can pick a new hero. Full of crap again about not making a move. The ones who make move are the winners. A key gank one a hero. A tower push, an awesome ult pulled off to coordinate your team annihilating the other side. I could go on and on about other points... My guess is you're a n00b at the game still. Which is fine. The learning curve to this game hurts as much as Eve Online.

Re:DotA legacy

[D J Horn]

Have you even played HoN? It doesn't seem like it... or maybe just a couple Easy Mode games?

"Does things like last-hitting your own minions an not scaling casters in any meaningful way with money really improve the game?"

What? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying denying against a caster enemy is pointless because they aren't as gold dependent? If so, that's not true. While it may not hurt a caster as much as a carry, it's far from pointless.

"Heck, they don't even let ranged heroes get life-steal."

Huh? There are numerous items that grant life stealing to ranged heroes. In fact only one of the life stealing items is melee only.

"The most annoying thing is that getting killed still makes you not only be denied experience, give the opponent team money and experience and increased lane control and increased ganking opportunities, it also makes you lose money."

If the penalty for dying was any less than it is, dying would become a non issue and games would drag out, not ending until one team was genocide'd with long enough respawn timers to kill the base. Whereas with the current death penalties, having a strong early game can lead to a faster win. Easy Mode games are proof of this - with their increased gold and experience, dying becomes irrelevant and games drag out far far longer than regular mode, usually not ending until everyone is max level with insane items.

"HoN and DotA on high levels means standing around behind your opponents reach and shooting your own minions, games just drag on and on since no one dares make a move or they will lose what little cash they have scrambled together."

This is true for the first 5~10 minutes of the game, but by then teams start grouping up and fighting each other to push towers. Then again, Easy Mode players tend to sit in their lanes for 45 minutes until they're max level and geared out before they'll actually do anything, so maybe that's what you experienced.

If you like League of Legends better, that's all well and good, but you seem to be talking about HoN without any actual idea what you're talking about.

Re:DotA legacy

[Dragonslicer]

uh, there are plenty of changes to this game. Orb stacking change, new heroes, new unique abilities never seen in DoTA (Zephyr), courier abilities, reconnecting, stats, matchmaking, maps, new graphics for well known models, lots of balancing with items.

None of those are significant gameplay changes. The closest to a real gameplay change in your list is that orbs stack, and probably the only reason they never did in any Warcraft III maps is because that's how the game engine worked and there was no way to change that.

Re:DotA legacy

[caeos]

Beta tester since release, played it fairly casually however.

I don’t want to get into a big discussion on various game play aspects, all ill say is that many aspects of DotA/HoN that seem tedious are in fact fairly core parts of the game play that add depth. I think there is room for a few games that are not streamlined/simplified to appeal to the widest audience possible.

As for the community, elitistism is definitely rampant, but I don’t believe DotA was any different. These games are not casual friendly, my advice is don’t bother playing alone, play with 1-2 friends at all times, that is what I do and I find it far more enjoyable.

I am not a developer, but as a long time competitive multiplayer gamer I feel some of the most interesting aspects of HoN are the overall frame work of features it has:

Full match statistic recording of every game played. (Can be viewed in game or via the web).
Full demos that are automatically recorded that anyone can simply 'fetch' within the game and watch with full camera functions - complete media player type control over the demos.
You can join the chat channels and stay in the channel while moving seamlessly into a game lobby and now even while the game loads in the background you can remain talking in the channel. (I have been wanting a feature like this for so many years, why must every multiplayer game force you to sit through a loading screen with no ability to communicate).
I feel the user interface overall is fairly well designed and you can modify it to suit your taste.
If you drop from the game you have a 5 minute window that allows you to reconnect and retain everything you had without penalty. After 5 mins you are considered kicked and your gold/items are distributed amongst your team.
People can easily see your stats on how many games you simply disconnect from so they can make informed decisions about allowing you to play in their game. No system is perfect but this sort of thing is a nice deterrent to stop people simply bailing on every game they are not winning within the 1st 10mins.

There are many more features, overall it just feels really well polished, game play balance will of course always be an issue that requires constant tweaking, but as far as I am concerned this is the case with most games.
I think some game developers could learn from what the S2 team have done with HoN. Multiplayer game features seem to be going backwards, I don’t understand why a lot of what is in HoN is not simply standard for any decent multiplayer game.

For me personally I find it a breath of fresh air that the developers actually seem to care what the community is looking for and don’t just tack everything on as an afterthought or simply ignore features altogether.

Re:DotA legacy

[ENIGMAwastaken]

Most of the stuff you list is just incorrect.

Last-hitting your own creeps is something that adds strategic depth and skill to the game. It makes laning much more competitive.

The reason casters don't scale late game is because they're extremely powerful early game. A hero like Pyromancer or Thunderbringer can kill half the heroes in the game with their spell combinations early to mid game. If there were no late game downside to picking heroes like this none would pick anything else.

And ranged heroes do get lifesteal, so I don't know where you got this idea.

Re:DotA legacy

[WaXHeLL]

League of Legends rewards 45 minutes of farming, and then seeing whoever is the better Ashe player.

This reeks of a player who hasn't gotten into the higher brackets of LoL's ELO system and probably has tried a few low level games. At higher ELO levels (which essentially is the rating system that LoL's matchmaking system uses to ensure that matches are as even as possible), the gameplay becomes very competitive and most of the teams you fight are premade teams with voice comms and everything.

-This gives all heroes certain roles, it allows for different strategies that must be executed right or you will lose the game.

The thing about HoN is exactly what the parent said -- the strategies must be executed right or you will lose the game (which is a lot like DoTA). LoL on the other hand has a lot of different strategies and you can be flexible on how you play each character -- you can build a lot of tanks as DPS, you can build some support characters as tanks or DPS, etc. The metagame in LoL definitely helps that part out.

DoTA and HoN snowball much quicker than LoL games typically, and there's a completely different dynamic in the 5v5 matches and 3v3 matches in LoL.

Oh yeah, did I mention having a real community rather than one filled up with a bunch of ragers and elitists helps?

Re:DotA legacy

[noric]

I have played hundreds of games of WC3 dota, a thousand games of heroes of newerth, and I have to say your perspective resembles that of other noobs who misunderstand the game. Particularly, this statement is just plain wrong:

HoN and DotA on high levels means standing around behind your opponents reach and shooting your own minions, games just drag on and on since no one dares make a move or they will lose what little cash they have scrambled together.

The more you play the hon, the more aggressive it gets.

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[aj50]

And which of those games currently has over 66000 players online (combining both versions)?

It seems that your stance doesn't extend to the gaming community at large.

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[sortius_nod]

I never said it did. Your attitude seems to echo exactly why I don't play. Your taking the amount of players as the quality of the game.

WoW has much more players than CS:S online, but I still rate WoW as a pile of dog shit because of elitist attitudes.

The more you struggle to justify the reason the play a game the more you reinforce mine (and many other's) stances toward games taken over by elitists.

Thank you for doing my job for me.

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[sortius_nod]

I once did play it back in beta, many moons ago, but left after 1.5 due to it turning into a hang out for pre-teens and elitist dickheads.

My argument isn't that the game is superior, it's about the community. I dare say that any game that's name includes "promode" would attract a large number of elitist, not that I've played it.

You know, games are meant to be fun, not having some whiny 12 year old tell you that you fucked up because you're not a twitch hound (I'm getting on in the years now).

This is highly off-topic, and I really don't think your post adds much other than betraying your desire to troll.

Rage on!

[henrik.falk]

I've never seen as much nerd rage as I saw in the few matches that I played this game. Seemingly this game is what happens when trolls actually participate in the community.

Re:Rage on!

[andrewd18]

Seemingly this game is what happens when trolls actually participate in the community.

No, you've just stumbled onto a community of trolls. I've been playing the closed beta since early last year, and while I give mad props to the developers for supporting Linux (even 64-bit!), I don't feel motivated to buy the game. HoN isn't fun unless I'm playing an in-house game with people I know, because the rest of the HoN community is too worried about their precious e-peens.

Mod Parent Up

[twoallbeefpatties]

I'm sorry that the parent post was marked troll (possibly some angry guy who got stuck laning with too many noobs in LoL.) I was gonna mark it underrated but thought a direct response might be a bit better. I'm someone who actually enjoys LoL. I've been playing it quite a bit with friends recently and taking in the sheer joy in flashing next to someone with Cho'Gath and nomming on their face. But everything the parent poster said is correct - LoL is geared to a more casual fanbase. It still has a learning curve that takes several plays to get the hang of, but it's not nearly as bad as DotA/HoN.

There's also a lot less going on in the game. The characters are stripped down to a bit more basic elements. Which is not to say that's a BAD thing - much like some people prefer older versions of Civilization to the new versions with a hundred different things going on in them, or how, y'know, Chess doesn't have a lot of rules to it. LoL is to team-RTS what WoW is to MMO's, while HoN is a bit more like EVE in that respect. If you like games with denser, more cerebral play, look into HoN - if you want something a little more pick-up-game fun, look into LoL.

Re:Mod parent UP

[brkello]

He's also stating stuff that he knows nothing about (porting). While he doesn't deserve troll, he isn't saying anything interesting or insightful.

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[aj50]

Let's go over your contribution to this discussion:

And this attitude is exactly why people will play LoL over HoN.

I disagree that the attitudes of the userbase will drive players from one game to another in huge numbers. As evidence I present the relative player numbers for CS and TF2.

It may be true for some people but it certainly isn't a general rule.

I never said it did. Your attitude seems to echo exactly why I don't play. Your taking the amount of players as the quality of the game.

Where did I say that? I was merely refuting the idea that an elitist userbase will drive players away in huge numbers.

WoW has much more players than CS:S online, but I still rate WoW as a pile of dog shit because of elitist attitudes.

The more you struggle to justify the reason the play a game the more you reinforce mine (and many other's) stances toward games taken over by elitists.

I don't play CS because it isn't fun unless everyone is of a comparable skill level and I don't play WoW because I don't like MMOs. I do play TF2 although not as much as I used to.

To be honest I find your attitude of slamming a game due to its community quite odd. In any skill based team game the success of the whole team depends on each member of the team playing their part. These types of games also tend to attract very competitive players who take the game seriously. Unless you're prepared to take the time to learn the game and be good at it, any attempt to have players of vastly different skill levels playing together will end in frustration. If you want to learn to play well then you need to practise lots and either read up on strategies or find a group of people who is willing to teach you. If you're not interested in playing competitively (as I'm not) then I suggest you seek out a community of like minded people who are happy to simply chat while playing and not care whether they win or lose.

That isn't to say that a lot of public games won't be full of foul-mouthed teens with a small amount of skill and a desire to pwn someone and then gloat about it. They're not people you need to listen to, if they were really any good they'd be playing in a competitive clan rather than sitting around dominating pub servers. These are the people that the mute or ignore feature was designed for.

Epic LoL vs. HoN War!

[twoallbeefpatties]

Those of you mods who are browsing at -1 and wondering why there are so many negative moderations goign on, as well as several trolls blasting the game one way or the other, be warned that people who play Heroes of Newearth generally have it out for the people who play League of Legends, and vice versa. The HoN'ers think that LoL'ers are spoiled kids who don't appreciate true deep, balanced gameplay and need someone to explain how you actually make a good game. If you've ever dealt with hardcore EVE players, this should sound familiar. The LoL'ers think the HoN'ers are a bunch of elitist asshats who would rather berate other players constantly than just sit back and enjoy a game.

I've seen threads on the LoL boards where the forum moderators for the two different games get into shouting matches with each other. It's not a pretty relationship between the two games, and bad blood spouts up anywhere either game is mentioned.

Re:Epic LoL vs. HoN War!

[twoallbeefpatties]

Basically, yes. And the truth drives them crazy. :)

(And I do say that as one of those spoiled LoL players.)

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[mgrivich]

WoW has much more players than CS:S online, but I still rate WoW as a pile of dog shit because of elitist attitudes.

What you are trying to say is that you are too good for WoW? Or perhaps that you are too elite for it?

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[pr100]

I'm bemused to see WoW described as "elitist" - it's a popular game because it offer something easy that your average guy (or occasionally girl) wants. Most of the millions of players are rather casual.

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[brkello]

WoW is elitist? Yikes...no it isn't. I 100% agree that DotA and its clones attract the most awful people on the face of the planet. But WoW and CS:S? They have a bit of a learning curve, but really aren't that bad. It sounds like you are just a little overly sensitive to criticism. Or you are bad at video games ;)

Client download?

[fordfanboi]

Anyone know of a link to download the client before open beta signup?

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[Anonymous Cowpat]

Last hitting in LOL gets you about 1/2 the gold you would get in HON.

Then it's still too much. The giant gold bounty you get for killing an enemy hero sets up self-reinforcing success and severely reduces the chances of a given game staying competitive for any large proportion of the total duration.

heroes of newerth great for linux

[noric]

I received my heroes of newerth beta key last July, and have been playing regularly ever since. I have played hundreds of games on both the windows and linux clients. The linux client works great and I suggest you try this game out :-).

Savage from S2 Games is still available

[mounthood]

S2 Games made "Savage" years ago and it has team play style FPS combined with RTS. It runs on Linux and you can download it here: http://www.newerth.com/ There are a lot of comments about Heros being unfriendly to new players, but that's not a problem with Savage. You'll just suck. :)

HoN is a GREAT game - easy to play, hard to master

[Patheos]

I have been playing HoN since the early beta began. I never played DOTA or any other game like this before so the learning curve was pretty rough for me. It took about 20 games before I really felt that I had a good grasp of the basics (games take anywhere from 15-45 mins). A few of the pros: 1. fast paced game 2. pretty good graphics 3. quite stable 4. great online play 5. TONS of strategies to use (offensive/defensive counters) 6. Lots of heros to pick from 7. Good friends lists, built in Voice servers etc. for fun times Cons: 1. Some people in the community are jerks just like any other online game 2. It can be hard to find a match to play with all of your friends on your team (people dont like to join games when they are all friends on one side since the scrub pick up groups usually dont know how to play together) Playing with 1-2 friends is pretty easy though, just not a full 5 man team. In rebuttal to those who say the game is not balanced, there are really good balances in place to the game. If you think a character is overpowered, pick your hero late (at the end of the countdown) and wait to see what others pick. If you know the characters, there is a great counter character for everyone in the game. Also playing larger games with more players is easier to counter than a 2v2 or 3v3 game.

Never played DOTA....

[HerculesMO]

I didn't get into Warcraft3 (that's where DOTA is from, right?) because of the "heroes" or whatever they had that made gameplay immensely boring.

How does DOTA compare to say, Starcraft? That's my favorite RTS to this point... does it have a high learning curve?

I'll check it out if it's worth checking out. S2 made Savage2 and I really love that game.

Re:Never played DOTA....

[Shabla]

Yeah, the learning curve is pretty hard. If you are a casual player this might not be a game for you. The concept: This is played like a RTS, but at the beginning of the game you chose a hero, this will be the only unit you have to control (some heroes have additional units to fight with them though -> need micro-ing skill -> harder for new player). Each team of 5 players starts out in their base, the goal is to destroy the "fortress" of the other team (a big building with a lot of health). Each base is defended by several towers (like tower defense games), and at a regular interval, creeps spawn and go toward the enemy base, attacking towers/buildings/players on their way. Your hero gain experience and gold by killing creeps/enemy heroes, he can then buy items to make him stronger. That's about it. A normal game would last for ~40 minutes, total pwnage of the other team can within 20 minutes, and a long game is 1 hour+.

For new players

[Shabla]

This game is awesome. I've been playing for ~4 months (regularly), I had never played DotA before, but I got hooked. Of course there's a lot of assholes, you WILL get pubstomped, the learning curve is VERY steep (60 heroes ATM, 4 different skills for each, 117 different items, alot of different strategy you have to know, ...). My tips: - Don't listen to the jerks. Somebody talkshit you ? Reply with kind words, he'll be mad. People will call you retard if you don't know what to buy/how to play, just ask them how, if he's a jerk he'll keep flaming you, else he might even help you out. - Don't play for stats (that mean don't steal a killing blow from someone else just for the score). - Don't feed. The most important thing is to survive. Don't suicide just to get a kill, it's not worth it. - Find friends to play with (this really helps to win pub games). - Play in games of your level. - Don't play pubs when the other team has 3+ locks (way to get pubstomped). - Play SD (Single Draft) to try out different heroes, find one you like, get better with him and then try a new one. - Read the forums, there are a lot of guide on pretty much every heroes (skills placement, items builds, skill usage, etc). - If you ever want to play anything else than pubs, don't play EM (Easy Mode). It's not balanced, it makes you learn the bad way, games aren't shorter because you earn gold faster, the other team does as well. - Don't leave your games before concede/victory/defeat. Looking forward to see you play =)

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[aztektum]

HON if your willing to put in the time

I have to say, and this echoes to others comments, that if you DON'T know DOTA, HON may not be the place to put in your time.

I have had a beta key since last summer (when they were being given out by /.) and the community has made it so I have not played in 4-5 months. In HON, matches that are flagged for noobs are loaded with assholes that will trash you mercilessly when they realize you in fact are a noob. I had heard of DOTA, but not owning or having interest in buying W3, I never played it, thus I had no knowledge of what to do and was treated like a piece of garbage.

There is a fun game in there somewhere, and I would really love to support S2 for supporting Linux. Unfortunately their community ruined those chances.

Re:Dota based game that already exists...

[Mathinker]

> other than betraying your desire to troll.

I had had the impression he jumped on the opportunity to post something which is written in a language graphically closer to Kvikkalkul and whose contents are almost totally opaque except to hardcore gamers (maybe even only hardcore FPS gamers).

Linux Client

[MBGMorden]

You know, I downloaded this last night. Even though my Linux machine has hardware perfectly capable of gaming (it's my fastest machine right now, as I use it for all my desktop use), I normally keep a Windows machine seperate to play games on. Seeing this have a Linux client peeked my interest though. I downloaded it to my Ubuntu 9.10 machine and spun it up.

And it worked great. Downloaded as a single .sh installer. Sadly Ubuntu apparently by default associates .sh with gedit so I had to drop the a terminal real quick to launch it with sh, but that's pretty minor. I simple install dialog popped up, asked me where to install (I just installed to my ~/HoN), and off it went. Took less than a minute, created menu entries in Gnome, and then it was done. I launched the game and it loaded just as easily and smoothly as one would expect on a Windows system. Though I also got a few minutes to mess around with it, for that brief time it actually PLAYED well too. It felt native - much unlike tweaking something to work in Wine that, while normally getting you into the game and playing (eventually), just feels off.

Based on almost no gameplay I've already pre-ordered this game and will be sending an email to let them know that I'm doing so explicitly for their Linux support. If other companies would start doing this more, I'd finally be able to kill off that Windows machine I keep for gaming.