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Computer Competency Test For Non-IT Hires?

wto605 writes "As computers are used for more and more vital business functions, small businesses must have office employees who understand the dangers of, and how to recognize and avoid, malware, spam, and phishing. After having been stung by monthly virus cleanups (at $75 an hour) due to an otherwise competent office manager, my parents have realized they need to be aware of their employees' computer skills beyond the ability to type a letter in Microsoft Word (currently the closest thing they have to a test of computer competence). The problem is, as a small business, they have no IT expert who would be able to judge a potential employee's competency. I'm wondering if anyone knows of a good way to test these security/safety awareness skills, such as an online test, a set of questions, etc. I have already pointed them to Sonicwall's Spam and Phishing test, but it definitely does not cover all of the issues facing computer users."

369 comments

  1. Anybody can have a bad day by topham · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Anybody can have a bad day.

    Just because someone is competent with a computer doesn't mean they can't be the vector for an infection. If you start with that premise you'll realize how completely futile it is. What you need instead is a tutorial program to reduce risks. Things they should and shouldn't do, etc.

    And proper anti-virus processes and procedures.

    1. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by MBCook · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Right, but computers can be dangerous tools. You are expected to prove some basic competency before you are licensed to drive. Same thing with operating heavy machinery.

      If you don't know what you're doing, you can cause a lot of harm. If you send out a message to a ton of clients and use CC instead of BCC.... you are in deep trouble. You're right that anyone could accidentally do that, but you should make sure they know that in the first place.

      I don't see any problem with some basic competency stuff. A little anti-phishing, some basic tasks in an email client, etc. If a job requires knowledge of how to use a computer, the applicants should know how to use a computer.

      If they don't? You could not hire them, or you could train them.

      Seems pretty reasonable to me. If you hire them and it turns out they don't know what they are doing, you can lose money directly (like the above), or indirectly (as they spend a day or two to do a simple task before you find out they didn't know what they were doing).

      I know that there are some things that I would like on the test. It drives me nuts how many people don't know how to send screenshots around. When you get a piece of text on a web page you want me to know about, just send me the text. I don't want a screenshot of the text. I really don't want a word document with a screenshot of the text. I don't want it internally, and I don't want clients/partners seeing that. I'd rather spend the 5 minutes to teach them how to do it correctly.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    2. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A proper anti-virus process and procedure won't help if the error is between keyboard and chair.

    3. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Funny

      Please answer all of these questions with a 'Yes' or 'No':
      Are you familiar with Windows? (Yes / No)
      Is Linux a computer operating system, a breed of penguins or some guy from Europe? (Yes / No)
      When was the last time you rebooted your computer? (Yes / No)
      Have you ever had a password you wouldn't share? (Yes / No)
      Do you know enough about computer security not to watch porn at work unless it's at lunch or a boring meeting? (Yes / No)
      What is the name of your first pet, the town you grew up in or your elementary school? (Yes / No)
      Do you post on Slashdot? (Yes / No)

      Your hired!

    4. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anybody can have a bad day.

      That's what the SEC lawyers said after someone did a review of the firewall logs.

    5. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Basic training and locking down the PCs is the way to go.

      Don't let the users run as administrators, and most of the infection problems will go away. From there, teach them how to deal with spam email and how to recognize fake antivirus and other phishing scams.

      Once the users are kept from shooting themselves in the foot (restricted rights), and are taught why they shouldn't point the gun at their foot in the first place, things should improve dramatically.

    6. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is very true. You can lock away admin access, but unless you lock people out of E-mail access, they still can wreak havoc by not following BCC/CC rules, sending to mailing lists, or even CC-ing stuff to people not in a company.

      Even mere access to a Web browser and browsing of pr0n on company time can result in sexual harassment lawsuits in some businesses.

    7. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've never had any of my computers, running Mac/Windows infected by anything that I know of, I don't use any sort of protection either. However, I know many people with more protection than me who get viruses because they don't know what they're doing.

      Sure I could get a virus. However, my friend who torrented an antivirus package to get rid of a virus he got from another torrent is still much more of a security risk than I'll ever be.

    8. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by clarkkent09 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Do you realize that almost half of the questions on this Yes/No questionnaire are not Yes/No questions? (Yes/No)

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
    9. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by countertrolling · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you send out a message to a ton of clients and use CC instead of BCC.... you are in deep trouble.

      Not even nearly as harmful as a crane falling on your head, or some old fart running you down because he hit the gas instead of the brakes. It's not that users aren't ready for computers, it's that computers aren't ready for the users. Cars weren't either until at least the 30s or 40s

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    10. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Sure it's futile, but it doesn't have to be a royal PITA in the process. Proper education of your employees should always be your first line of defense, followed by network, server, and workstations anti-virus protection. In the event of an infection, it should be rare and isolated.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    11. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      all this licensing would do is create a caste society. it sounds great on the surface, but people would use it to exclude others for other reasons than competence.

    12. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by countertrolling · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      (Score:0, Offtopic)

      Oh go fuck yourself! You obviously don't speak English.

      I was replying to this aspect of the post, Right, but computers can be dangerous tools. You are expected to prove some basic competency before you are licensed to drive. Same thing with operating heavy machinery.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    13. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      Sure, you have to scan your desk too.

    14. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by ls671 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      When working for big corporations, I often have to pass a "computer security and privacy awareness test". It is usually implemented through a web interface with simple radio button forms (multiple choices) and I have to pass it before I can get any access to their systems.

      Trust me, you really do not have to be a techie to pass it but you must know basic principles about internet security and privacy issues, confidentiality and security levels etc.

      The solution seems simple enough; just get a template for one of these tests that pretty much look alike in any big corporation. Such standard tests but be available through the internet.

      Have the candidates pass the test. Also, state strict sanctions for mistakes with regards to not following those basic guidelines and make them clear right from the start, preferably as part of the test. Candidates get the idea that you do not fool around with these topics.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    15. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by endus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Excellent point.

      I think you can probably make a case for users needing to be competent to avoid phishing attacks...because the impact can be so damaging and there is no real way to prevent them...but in all other aspects maintaining a good security posture really is more the responsibility of the IT staff. In the end, something is going to test your defenses. Most of the viruses we see at my very large enterprise spread via the network. You get one user who makes a wrong click and BAM every single one of your small office's unpatched computers are infected. You're never going to get staff that is incapable of making those types of mistakes...even IT staff make them from time to time.

      I don't disagree that users should be encouraged to be more computer literate and security aware...regardless of your budget and your staffing there are aspects of security which will come down to user decisions and there is nothing you can do about it. I have been an advocate for training and modifying the culture of my organization to try and instill at least SOME basic level of security awareness. Nurses who don't want to have a password on their computer because its too hard to remember...well...too bad. Start remembering a password or start touching up your resume is what I say. It's just part of the commitment a business needs to make when embracing IT as a part of it's business. However with things like viruses, spam, malware...it's always going to get through no matter what you do. The question is whether your infrastructure is ready for it.

    16. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by tomhudson · · Score: 5, Funny

      Rule # 1 - the source of the problem is ALWAYS sitting between some keyboard and chair somewhere. Find that person!!!

    17. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL. I frequently get emailed word documents with screenshots :(

    18. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by HamSammy · · Score: 1

      *facepalm*

    19. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Anybody can have a bad day.

      That's what the SEC lawyers said after someone did a review of the firewall logs.

      Was this it?

    20. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by aDSF762 · · Score: 0

      It drives me nuts how many people don't know how to send screenshots around. When you get a piece of text on a web page you want me to know about, just send me the text. I don't want a screenshot of the text. I really don't want a word document with a screenshot of the text. I don't want it internally, and I don't want clients/partners seeing that. So you want that text handwritten?... better I tell you face to face?... maybe jobs that don't need computers shouldn't use them?... Maybe you should chill out?

      --
      sense of security, like pockets jingling...
    21. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh!

    22. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by topperharley122 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Do you realize that almost half of the questions on this Yes/No questionnaire are not Yes/No questions? (Yes/No)

    23. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In some (extreme) cases someone failing to use BCC instead of CC could cost a company just as much as a crane falling on a worker or a runaway car. Just because there isn't physical damage doesn't mean there can't be monetary or reputational damage.

    24. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by topperharley122 · · Score: 1

      Unless you are the state of Michigan and spend 2 years re-designing the welfare program software for the entire state, only to find out that 90% of your employees who've been using the previous software, a DOS program from the 70's, don't even know how to use a mouse. When retraining your entire staff to use basic computer functions costs more than a 2 year IT project, it might be time to talk to HR.

    25. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by mpe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't let the users run as administrators, and most of the infection problems will go away.

      In many cases this is an issue more relevent to clueless developers together with clueless vendor support...

    26. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Like they do with driver's licenses, and truck licenses, and nuclear power plant licenses, and fishing licenses and all those other licenses that are misused to create a caste society, right?

      Given how driver's licenses have morphed into ID requirements for all kinds of non-driving tasks and things like fishing licenses are about revenue generations rather than anything else - even your other examples are about control and regulation of business - I think you've demonstrated the guy's point.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    27. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      In some (extreme) cases someone failing to use BCC instead of CC could cost a company just as much...

      Who the hell cares? I sure don't. Human life trumps money or reputation any day of the week. But then I'm probably in the minority on that one.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    28. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by the_womble · · Score: 1

      They need an IT person to come in and lock it down tightly so damage is contained. The office manager was running as admin, right? Of course they will have to pay (unless you oblige), but it is a one off, and its either that or the viruses.

      Oh, and use Linux. Windows is fine in a corporate environment where you have an IT department to look after all this, but for home (non-gaming) and small business (unless there is Windows only industry vertical software you need) it is much better to use something that does not need on-going maintenance: you can get someone to install it and then rely on it carrying on working.

    29. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CC vs. BCC is exactly what shows that testing for computer competency can't solve all problems. There are a lot of people who can upgrade their PC's hardware, use the latest social sites to the best advantage, know how to use several software security tools and still have no idea what CC and BCC are, simply because these typically only have meaning in a corporate environment.

      IMO a good policy for a small business would be to set up the PC's in a way that minimises risks, i.e., with reduced privileges, a trusted antivirus, etc., and train people for what they need to know for business (like CC and BCC).

    30. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You quoted the parent, but didn't quote the part you were actually responding to. What did you think was going to happen?!? I followed you, but you can't expect every idiot with mod-points follow a thread unless you really spell it out for them.

    31. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Anyone can be fired for a bad day.

      There is a big difference between making one single mistake and having a risky attitude. This is especially true for people who are at a hierarchical higher level than the IT people in charge of the security.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    32. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Your post:

      Just because someone is competent with a computer doesn't mean they can't be the vector for an infection.

      From the summary:

      they have no IT expert who would be able to judge a potential employee's competency. I'm wondering if anyone knows of a good way to test these security/safety awareness skills

      That does NOT deserve a +5 Insightful rating, mods. I don't actually see how that post could have been any less Insightful.

      I would recommend they try this:
      On the application, or perhaps on a short written "test" during an interview, ask them some questions like "do you use a gmail, yahoo, aol, etc. email account? If so, please provide user ID and login information here:____" Do the same for social networking sites like facebook, news aggregate sites like Slashdot, etc.

      Any applicant who gives you ANY login or password information, toss their application in the shredder and ask them to leave.
      Any applicant who turns in the paper with blank or smartass comments, call back for a 2nd interview.
      Any applicant who actually tells you, on the spot, that it's none of your business & you can fuck right off, you should offer them the job on the spot.

    33. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Do you work for the Home Land Security department?

    34. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Zumbs · · Score: 1

      If I say Yes, do I get the job?

      --
      The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
    35. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by 0ld_d0g · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dude.. my mom makes her presentations in excel !

    36. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by berzerke · · Score: 1

      Human life trumps money or reputation any day of the week. But then I'm probably in the minority on that one.

      No, you're not in the minority. It's just that you're not a lawyer or corporation. You're a human being.

    37. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sorry, it reduces your exposure, ever so slightly, but isn't enough. (I've done security for large and small companies, intrusion detection, malware, worms, etc. Research, decompiling the little buggers, etc.) I worked for one security company (a major one) in which *they* managed to catch a worm that reamed a chunk of engineering (by the nature of their development, the engineers could not run all the anti-bad stuff software on their many of their dev systems.) The worm got in when a marketing guy connected through a VPN to update his security software. Turns out IT didn't have the DMZ for that as tight as they thought. At another site, with more security software than most companies have, a worm managed to ream out the CEOs machine. He turned it on earlier than the AV company released its sigs. It got on to his machine from the chairman of the board (who's machines we didn't control). However, properly preparing the whole network in advance kept the worm on his machine and allowed IT to flash the system all the way down to the firmwares and BIOS, bringing him back up in 20 minutes to where he was immediately before the worm hit him. We later took the worm apart and see how it worked. It was interesting; clever but not brilliantly so.

      There is simply no substitute for a well setup environment. It's a matter of preparing to mitigatie the damage that *will* happen.

      All the IDS, Firewalls, user training, AV and anything else will not prevent you from catching something bad. Just setup everything to deal with it.

      I'm really surprised no one has offered insurance for this stuff. Just like in real life, you *will* catch something and it *will* make your systems "sick". And you *will* have to pay someone to fix them.

      Maybe the insurance could cost less if you engage in preventative healthcare from a reputable professional. Of course, they'd have to carry malpractice insurance, like doctors. The company would off-load some of their risk to the insurance company who would off-load some of their risk to trained professionals.

      Anyway, a company should never be using a tool that can easily, through normal usage, cause that much damage. Those are poorly implemented tools.

    38. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A DOS program from the 70s? I'm impressed by the forward-looking futuristic technology used by that developer!

    39. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Targon · · Score: 1

      PEBKAC=Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

      That has been in use for a long time, but many are not familiar with it.

    40. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Col.+Panic · · Score: 1

      yes but when someone who supposedly works in IT launches kournikova.jpg.vbs i want to stake them to an anthill

      ask me why

    41. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      If you don't know what you're doing, you can cause a lot of harm. If you send out a message to a ton of clients and use CC instead of BCC....

      And another favorite: Idiot doing a reply-all to a Mail that was Bcc'ed to him... (with the result that now all the others in Cc: and To: know about him being Bcc'ed...)

      I know that there are some things that I would like on the test. It drives me nuts how many people don't know how to send screenshots around.

      Indeed, the answer can be summed in 3 words: "not at all".

      When you get a piece of text on a web page you want me to know about, just send me the text. I don't want a screenshot of the text.

      And some idiots even manage to send a screenshot of a partially obscured error message. How useful is that? Had they just copy-pasted the text, it would have been complete.

      But part of the "screenshot" problem is that so many helpdesks actually ask for them, even where it doesn't make any sense at all (such as "your website is very slow", answer: "could you send me a screenshot?")

    42. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      Do you realize that almost half of the questions on this Yes/No questionnaire are not Yes/No questions? (Yes/No)

      wooooosh!

    43. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by jp10558 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Don't let the users run as administrators, and most of the infection problems will go away
      I wish. This used to be the case, but most of the FakeAV stuff can run and infect fine in a user context. Sure, you can blow the user account away and you're clean, but still, doing that several times a week because yet another infected ad on CNN or whatever hosed their profile, even through Firefox, even with ad-blocking at the squid proxy, is a PITA.

      Sure, non-admin means less re-images, but it isn't stopping many of the dangerous attack vectors (zeus etc).

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    44. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      And another favorite: Idiot doing a reply-all to a Mail that was Bcc'ed to him... (with the result that now all the others in Cc: and To: know about him being Bcc'ed...)

      Without resorting to rules written by the user, are there any e-mail clients that give the user a very solid notification that some e-mail address that doesn't end up at them is not in the "To:" or "Cc:" fields?

      Remember that "To:", "Cc:", and "BCC" (not really a header field) are handled by merely placing the address in the envelope and sending the text of the e-mail, and the text just happens to contain the "To:" and "Cc:" fields.

    45. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by camperdave · · Score: 1

      There are not very many error messages that you can copy/paste the text from. So, barring a screenshot, you'd have to get the user to actually type in the error message.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    46. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      Without resorting to rules written by the user, are there any e-mail clients that give the user a very solid notification that some e-mail address that doesn't end up at them is not in the "To:" or "Cc:" fields?

      Not so easy, as any mail sent to a (mailman or majordomo) mailing list would look the same (user neither in To:, nor in Cc:), and we wouldn't want to put up a noisy warning just for replying to a mailing list message...

      Or maybe lists could be identified in a different way? Sometimes Thunderbird shows a "reply to list" button, so how does it find out?

      In that case, the rule would be "if user neither in To: nor in Cc:, and if it is not a list either, loudly warn when attempting to reply"

    47. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1
      Actually, in most cases, you can copy/paste the error text just fine. Especially with Web applications.

      And for any thing dependant on time, or on a long series of actions, screenshots don't make sense anyways.

    48. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please answer all of these questions with a 'Yes' or 'No': ...
      Your hired!

      One more...

      do you now the difference between your and you're (Yes/No)

    49. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by DWRECK18 · · Score: 1

      I would have to agree with the OP, I have seen many IT "Experts" get viruses and malware. It can happen to anybody. What should be done as is done in the military is to create an awareness course of the do's and dont's of computer security. Then from there depending on the willingness also offer some form of tutorial on Office Programs or any other program they may be using.

    50. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by BVis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then they should LEARN what BCC and CC are, or they can get a new fucking job. This is not rocket science. It takes approximately ten seconds to thoroughly learn the difference. Asking this of someone with an eighth grade education is not unreasonable.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    51. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by silverglade00 · · Score: 1

      I followed you, but you can't expect every idiot with mod-points follow a thread unless you really spell it out for them.

      There should really be a test for that too. It's almost as dangerous as operating heavy machinery! *wink*

    52. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is up to the business to supply a fully functional and safe PC, said dangerous tool, with the proper anti-virus, spam filters, firewalls, and security awareness. This responsibility should not be on the employee. They are hired to perform another job, not IT stuff.

    53. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      If you don't know what you're doing, you can cause a lot of harm. If you send out a message to a ton of clients and use CC instead of BCC.... you are in deep trouble.

      You know the BCC list can still be intercepted at the recipient's server, right? The only secure way to email a group of people is to send individual emails (using an app that automates it of course).

      http://www.livinginternet.com/e/ea_bcc.htm

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    54. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As does my GF. She is an accountant, however, so I am pretty certain that should be acceptable.

    55. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by crashumbc · · Score: 2, Informative

      Although I'll get slammed for posting on lindot

      MOST small businesses use software that runs on windows...

      Quickbooks
      POS software
      most off the shelf inventory systems...

      finding someone to convert,maintain,train them in use of Linux alternatives is not cost effective...

    56. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by 2obvious4u · · Score: 1

      You could make a really mean and nasty test.
      Welcome to the Internet Security test. In order to get started would you please provide your name and social.

      1: Open Outlook and mail your login credentials to your supervisor so that he/she can verify your access.
      2: ...

    57. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Bobfrankly1 · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Rule # 1 - the source of the problem is ALWAYS sitting between some keyboard and chair somewhere. Find that person!!!

      PEBKAC Problem exists between keyboard and chair. If only they could get these errors to appear in the event viewer.

    58. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, when you watch your candidate type, see if they're the sort of person that still thinks it's acceptable to use the capital letter "I" as a "1" in and the letter "O" as a zero.

      Our room temperature IQ clerical staff are all over 50 and many don't know the difference. I end up cleaning their data. There's just no convincing them about this weird abstract thing called ASCII. And I work at a university!

    59. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Security is everybodies job.

    60. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only move is not to play...

    61. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only I had named my cat What then I would have been hired.

    62. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      No, all these licenses simply prevent people who shouldn't be doing things from doing them. I don't see how this creates a tiered social class structure at all, unless you consider truckers to be better than you because they have a license you could get with proper training.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    63. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Splab · · Score: 1

      We just got a new receptionist and she is totally blank, no way she can do any harm, just learned how to make @ and cp+paste.

      The real trouble starts when a user knows just enough to connect the dots, but not the avalance of trouble heading their way.

    64. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by topham · · Score: 1

      The point is, regardless of any test you put a potential employee through the risk itself still exists.

      The statement that they don't have an IT expert is the start of the problem. Hire an outside firm to evaluate your IT processes. Evaluate your risks and devise a strategy to mitigate those risks. Yes; you should know that the employees you hire can make rational decisions in regards to phishing emails, etc, but that is not enough in itself. 1 wrong move and you are in precisely the same position you were previously.

      Is any anti-virus software installed? Anti-spyware?
      Is the network firewalled?
      Is incoming email filtered for viruses? Spam? Phishing email?

      In the event of a breach, are there any steps which have been taken to mitigate the damage such a breach can cause?

    65. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely this isn't 'Flamebait'. To be fair, WSG makes this kind of mistake/typo in just about every post. He needs Slashdot's version of a spelling/grammar 'pilot fish' to clean up after him.

    66. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      No, all these licenses simply prevent people who shouldn't be doing things from doing them.

      As long as you refuse to see what's right in front of you can believe anything with a clear conscience.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    67. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry that I don't think 12 year old should have the legal right to drive semi-trucks and open their own nuclear power plants?

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    68. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry that I don't think 12 year old should have the legal right to drive semi-trucks and open their own nuclear power plants?

      I don't know, are you?

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    69. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      No, I'm not. I'm just trying to be polite and give you an opportunity to explain your extremely bizarre concern for the freedom to be totally irresponsible and unsafe.

      A license for operating a computer is no different from one for operating a car, and the financial damage one can do to themselves or others is very similar. After correcting for the likelihood of said damage, I'd say access to the internet can probably be less financially safe.

      The only possible exception in equating the two systems is that some countries now consider internet access a human right. It is not considered such in the US, so that argument is inapplicable here.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    70. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      You quoted the parent, but didn't quote the part you were actually responding to. What did you think was going to happen?!? I followed you, but you can't expect every idiot with mod-points follow a thread unless you really spell it out for them.

      I'm so confused. What are you talking about? What's a thread? Fuck it, I'm modding you down.

    71. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      You know the BCC list can still be intercepted at the recipient's server, right?

      Not if the sender is well-behaved:

      In the first case, when a message containing a "Bcc:" field is prepared to be sent, the "Bcc:" line is removed even though all of the recipients (including those specified in the "Bcc:" field) are sent a copy of the message. In the second case, recipients specified in the "To:" and "Cc:" lines each are sent a copy of the message with the "Bcc:" line removed as above, but the recipients on the "Bcc:" line get a separate copy of the message containing a "Bcc:" line. (When there are multiple recipient addresses in the "Bcc:" field, some implementations actually send a separate copy of the message to each recipient with a "Bcc:" containing only the address of that particular recipient.)

      Also:

      Each recipient address from a TO, CC, or BCC header field SHOULD be copied to a RCPT command (generating multiple message copies if that is required for queuing or delivery). This includes any addresses listed in a RFC 822 "group". Any BCC fields SHOULD then be removed from the headers.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    72. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Ok, troll/flamebait/overrated. The offtopic mod showed a real comprehension problem. But yeah, some people are too lazy to make even a feeble effort see the context the message is wrapped in (?)

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    73. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      No, I'm not. I'm just trying to be polite and give you an opportunity to explain your extremely bizarre concern for the freedom to be totally irresponsible and unsafe.

      Actually you:
      a) Made a typo and ended your statement with a question mark.
      b) Are projecting your understanding of the absolute best possible use of licensing to be how licensing is implemented in the USA today.

      Re (a) learn to laugh at yourself.
      Re (b) FALSE

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    74. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      The question mark wasn't a typo. You may find it to be a common rhetorical device used in spoken American English. I apologize if that was unclear.

      Please provide an example of how the implementation of licensing today is creating second class citizens or some other kind of caste society. If this is in fact the case, then I will stand firmly on your side of the issue.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    75. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by FlyMysticalDJ · · Score: 1

      I understand where you're coming from, and I doubt that a simple BCC/CC mistake could cause too much personal damage, but I've heard stories of big corporations accidentally releasing large amounts of customer data, even social security numbers at times. At that point all though no human life is lost, it hurts the lives of many people. And that whole loss of money and reputation just adds insult to injury.

    76. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by fbjon · · Score: 1

      No no, the problem is finding the right chair and keyboard that hold the culprit.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    77. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      The question mark wasn't a typo. You may find it to be a common rhetorical device used in spoken American English. I apologize if that was unclear.

      Not a typo, then it was a deliberate grammatical error, it is certainly not a 'common rhetorical device' in spoken english because applying the rising intonation commonly associated with a question mark to an accusative statement only makes the speaker sound uneducated rather than indicate some sort of intent. Even funnier though.

      Please provide an example of how the implementation of licensing today is creating second class citizens or some other kind of caste society. If this is in fact the case, then I will stand firmly on your side of the issue.

      Have you tried to buy liquor in a state like Massachusetts in the last decade?
      Many liquor stores will not sell you liquor unless they scan the bar code on the back of your license.
      Simply looking at it is not sufficient.
      The ubiquity of driver's licenses has made it difficult to buy liquor with an alternate form of age verification that doesn't give up a person's privacy.
      That's a segmentation of the population into those with privilege and those without that has absolutely nothing to do with the stated intent of the license.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    78. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to go further into your "grammar" issue as it is not relevant.

      As for your single, anecdotal example, that isn't creating second class citizens because people are unable to meet certain criteria or are willfully and maliciously denied licenses. That's people who actively chose not to meet the requirements of a private seller, and were denied access to their private goods. Maybe you should take your business elsewhere.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    79. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to go further into your "grammar" issue as it is not relevant.

      Actually I think it is MORE relevant - your handling of an obviously trivial error suggests a mindset ruled by the id. Based on that reaction alone I predicted your response to the central argument. You followed form exactly - in the face of a simple and direct example you added contortions and weasel words to your previously simple and clear requirements.

      As for your single, anecdotal example, that isn't creating second class citizens because people are unable to meet certain criteria or are willfully and maliciously denied licenses. That's people who actively chose not to meet the requirements of a private seller, and were denied access to their private goods. Maybe you should take your business elsewhere.

      Who said it was anecdotal? In fact, my wording was pretty specifically not anecdotal - the practice is widespread. And since when do private businesses not enforce castes? Hell, in India and other places it is all about the private businesses doing it with the tacit support of the government - malicious and willful are certain not requirements. Just like the way drivers licenses have become mandatory wide-spread centralized ids with the tacit support of the government.

      But, here's another one for you to contort - hunting, fishing and boating licenses are purely revenue driven. Its not like passing a safety class is a common requirement in order to get any of them and only in rare circumstances are they used to limit ecological impact. If you have the money to spend you get the privilege as doled out by the governemnt. If you don't, you are specifically denied access to a public resource.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    80. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by biryokumaru · · Score: 1

      I chose not to argue because it is irrelevant. I am choosing to extend that to the remainder of your talking points. I'm sorry, but I'm really done here. Allow me to forward you to a place better suiting your needs.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    81. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      The problem is that we give to much power to data, particularly computer data. Too many regard it as infallible. Another big problem the concept of a general, do-all machine that we try to make computers into. It's like using a combination tractor-trailer/backhoe/airplane/boat to take the wife and kids to church. Let's break them down into specialized appliances. If you remember how the old factories worked, they had one big, giant motor drive the the whole works. Later they found it much better to give each tool its own portable power source. Doing the same for computers might make them much more trustworthy and reliable. You know who's coming close to that? Apple. They have always been the most appliance like. Everybody's complaining about the iPad's limitations. Well that may just be what is needed. Let's consider it as an appliance instead of a "computer".

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    82. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your hired!

      Is that also part of your satire, or does your concern for competency not extend into grammar?

    83. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Small Business owners have to have some background on, and protection of, computer security.
      All the information they need is in the Small Business Center website, and doesn't even require registration to view. Just click on the Security tab for more information. Hopefully your parents will find this useful.

      (responded to on friendfeed and slashdot, sorry if you get duplicates!)

      Microsoft Small Business Center/Security
      http://bit.ly/acxKhe

      Cheers,
      Rebecca
      The Microsoft SMB Outreach Team

    84. Re:Anybody can have a bad day by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      Or maybe lists could be identified in a different way? Sometimes Thunderbird shows a "reply to list" button, so how does it find out?

      Most list software adds extra headers that can be used identify the actual original recipient (i.e., the list address) and the end recipient, along with a lot of other useful information.

      I still use Pegasus Mail (although I'm starting to look for a more modern replacement that has the power and the security), and my rules for filtering "not-directly-to-me" e-mail work pretty well. But, they're still add-on rules, and I don't know of any e-mail client that has similar ones out-of-the-box.

  2. racist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    competency tests are all racist. they only seek to restrict minorities. you cannot legally require these - the courts have ruled. live with it, right wing tea bagger.

    1. Re:racist by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      i hope that funny mod is what you were going for, because if competency is no longer a legal step in hiring people, i dont want to be subjected to any american employees

      maybe my humor-o-meter if broken, but that post really scared the shit out of me

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    2. Re:racist by Rigrig · · Score: 3, Funny

      Are you saying incompetent people are no longer the majority?

      --
      **TODO** [X] Steal someone elses sig.
    3. Re:racist by Bobfrankly1 · · Score: 1

      competency tests are all racist. they only seek to restrict minorities. you cannot legally require these - the courts have ruled. live with it, right wing tea bagger.

      I didn't know idiocy was a race. I thought it was a good thing to restrict the idiots, regardless of their legal status.

  3. Simpler solution... by demonlapin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why offer general internet access from office PCs anyway? Lock them down tight. If you want to be nice, have an unlocked PC or two with a completely separate Internet connection that can be used during break times for any minor personal details - checking personal email, reserving plane tickets, etc.

    1. Re:Simpler solution... by assemblyronin · · Score: 1

      There are more attack vectors than just web traffic.

      They'll need decent e-mail spam/virus filters, and physically disconnect USB drive access to their machines (people plugging in their dirty USB sticks).

    2. Re:Simpler solution... by biryokumaru · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Taking that a step further, they could sandbox all internet apps into a VM, and just wipe that if it gets virus-y.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    3. Re:Simpler solution... by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because people are generally more productive when they don't have things on their mind? I know for sure that if I have my personal e-mail/social networking sites/phone out I don't have to worry about missing important events, etc. and generally I'm more productive. I don't check it every 5 minutes or anything but it does help to allow me to focus without thinking about what I could be missing. Without the ability to check personal things, generally my mind tends to wander to them and I lose focus on work. I guess I'm just a tasklist type of person, I want to be -done- with everything, to be up-to-date on my e-mails, etc. Some people aren't. Some people would spend all day on Facebook and get nothing done, some people's minds just don't wander to other tasks, but in general mine does. If my work decided to block all the outside internet, I have little doubt my productivity would suffer because my mind would constantly be elsewhere.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    4. Re:Simpler solution... by redmid17 · · Score: 2
      Well beyond the fact you need to tighten the comps down, there are very legitimate reasons to have web access at work. In fact a new Australian study thinks it actually raises productivity.

      http://uninews.unimelb.edu.au/news/5750/

    5. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh sure, while you sit in the back playing games and watch Hulu all day... Screw you. I worked in an office where the computers were "locked down tight" for a few months.

      "How many ounces are in a liter?"
      "Just a sec while I Google it. Oh wait, I can't. Give me fifteen minutes to walk over to the factory and physically find a 1L bottle so that I can look at the fucking label."

      If I wanted to protect all of the fleet vehicles from damage all I had to do was throw away the keys. But that would be about as stupid and lazy as your locking down the internet connection. It's 2010, do your job, do it well and stop acting like the non IT employees are a bunch of chimps.

    6. Re:Simpler solution... by aoteoroa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In an age where many suppliers use web applications that our employees need to place orders, research part specifications and more blocking the web isn't very feasible, and white lists are way too much work compared to occasionally re-imaging a drive. However ever since we put in IPCop to track web usage the number of viruses and other malware decreased significantly. But it could be just a coincidence.

    7. Re:Simpler solution... by demonlapin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I work at a hospital. The computers that are on the network on which sensitive data is passed have whitelist Internet access to a tiny handful of sites. There is also a public wifi network that is basically open to anything but porn/warez sites which anyone can attach to. You're welcome to connect your smartphone or laptop to it.

      It's not about controlling the employees, which I agree is counterproductive. It's about protecting the corporate information. 90% of my Internet usage at work is personal and has no business being done on computers that might contain patient information. That doesn't mean I spend all day surfing rather than working; it just means I need to separate the two.

    8. Re:Simpler solution... by DigitAl56K · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You'd make the kind of admin I despise.

      Maybe because people like to listen to streaming music while they work. Maybe because people like to do research online while they work. Maybe IM is a useful form of communication. Maybe you want to research your clients or competition or do SEO or some graphics tutorials or download an editor for something yada yada yada. Don't hire total noobs, do your job of installing the latest updates, run some anti-virus (insert McAfee joke here), and have an understood IT policy - understood meaning people understand your concerns, not just "the rules". You can never have perfect security, but you can have reasonable security without being an ass about it. You can also have a backup plan, like backing up documents on a schedule to a safe(r) system and having a disc image to recover a system from reasonably quickly.

      Yours is an office I wouldn't work in, and maybe there is something to say for self-selection of the people that would.

    9. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Lock them down tight" isn't necessarily simple, and isn't a practical solution for a small business with "no IT expert". Simple is relative - if you have experience locking down Windows boxes, then yeah - it's simple. If you're a business that just happens to depend on off-the-shelf computers to run some day-to-day operations then some sort of pre-employment skills assessment is far more simple. I think they'd spend just as much money hiring someone to lock down the environment, only to find the locked-down environment overly restrictive and preventing installation or operation of apps. Users need sufficient system rights to do work; the reason a business exists in the first place. Identifying candidates who can recognize and avoid common infections will strike a better balance between security and functionality for a small business with no IT staff.

    10. Re:Simpler solution... by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Depending on where you work, it might be a good idea to lock down most of the computers. A hospital or doctor's patient information shouldn't be on machines with free-for-all internet access, as someone mentioned above. The problem here isn't "loss of data". It's "anyone who isn't authorized seeing nearly any portion of the data", which is a much harder thing to do when everyone has access to email, Google and every bit of snoopware that comes with that.

    11. Re:Simpler solution... by demonlapin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry. I should have been clearer. This is obviously a really small business (a $75/hr consultant makes a difference to them) that faces a difficult situation because of one otherwise exemplary employee. Set up a network with all the sensitive data on it that is locked down tighter than a nunnery and a network that's not so tightly managed that allows internet access. Problem solved.

      I work in a large hospital. If you log in as a generic user - typical for most stations, because anybody can wake it up from the screensaver - you get no Internet access. If you log in as yourself, making tracking (and disciplinary action) possible, you can go to any non-porn/warez/etc site. It's no serious imposition on people who work in one place, and it keeps the infections down.

    12. Re:Simpler solution... by demonlapin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then use your phone. I use my smartphone at work for exactly those reasons - there are a lot of conversations I have that are none of my employer's business.

    13. Re:Simpler solution... by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      "Don't run as admin" *is* simple and will prevent most malware/infections.

      --
      No sig today...
    14. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It truly has become bizzaro world. You need constant access to distractions to not be distracted. And I believe you.

    15. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A hospital or doctor's patient information shouldn't be on machines with free-for-all internet access

      That information probably shouldn't be accessible from a personal machine, period. Well-run hospitals and such have dedicated machines for handling all patient data, with 'regular' machines on desks. Same thing in certain classified environments - you can have a sensitive (but non-internet-connected) machine next to an open machine on the same desk.

      The realistic answer is that you need 'enough' security so that you maximize productivity. More security can reduce productivity if the incremental benefit of more security makes employees' jobs harder. But you definitely don't need the same policy for non-sensitive machines that you do for a doctor's office.

      Certainly 'locking down' all the machines is just damned lazy. I want to pimp slap the losers who force that crap through.

    16. Re:Simpler solution... by demonlapin · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      I'm not IT.

    17. Re:Simpler solution... by KahabutDieDrake · · Score: 4, Informative

      It speaks volumes that your point of view is effectively, "I work better when I'm slightly less focused on my personal stuff". Has it occurred to you to try focusing on your work, when it's work time, and leave your personal issues at the door? I know this isn't a popular opinion around here, but your email, facebook and txt messages can wait until you aren't being paid for your time. If they can't, then you have a problem, and you should get counseling, OR you need to take a furlough from work and get your life in order.

      While it's great that modern systems can keep us up to date on the latest and greatest events around us, it's nothing more than a distraction most of the time, and it is almost NEVER serious business.

    18. Re:Simpler solution... by thesandtiger · · Score: 4, Funny

      I love admins like you. I work for a university and our individual desktop machines were - until the policy was changed - "locked down tight" as you say.

      So my group spent a week harassing IT by constantly sending emails to them - and to the relevant department heads - asking them to google stuff for us, print it out, and deliver it. We had them over at least 3-4 times a day to install software we wanted to test out. We called them about every. Single. Issue. We could come up with.

      Five days of this and we were given admin privileges, the net-nanny software was removed, and the admin who came up with the "lock it down tight" policy was sent on to greener pastures because, after all, the purpose of computers in the workplace is to get work done, not to just avoid getting them infected with malware.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    19. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yours is an office I wouldn't work in

      You might keep in mind that this admin is probably not HR. The employees might be little more savvy than monkeys; I've seen it myself. You raise some valid points but ya really need to stop using the shotgun approach.

    20. Re:Simpler solution... by ShinmaWa · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I'm not IT.

      TAG! Now you are.

      --
      The /. Effect: Thousands of users simultaneously accessing a site to not read its content.
    21. Re:Simpler solution... by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      You're totally in the clear. Universities with - let's be insanely conservative here - 1000 users are just like 5-employee firms.

    22. Re:Simpler solution... by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

      And forgive the self reply, but there were other circumstances leading up to this - the guy was a complete martinet, a very stereotypical misanthrope who seemed to be more interested in denying services than in helping people do their work. This was just the last straw.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    23. Re:Simpler solution... by kklein · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know this isn't a popular opinion around here, but your email, facebook and txt messages can wait until you aren't being paid for your time.

      Grownups aren't paid for their time; they're paid for their results. I'm sorry to hear that you still work at McDonald's.

    24. Re:Simpler solution... by KahabutDieDrake · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Professionals are paid for their time. Period. You can slice it however you want, but almost no one works piece meal. Most of those that do are VERY far down the skill ladders.

      It was a nice try to slander me with accusations of working for McDonalds. Last time I checked, their POS terminals don't allow the user to initiate a web browser (or any other software).

      Wether salary, or hourly, you are being paid for your time. Surely the result are what count (mostly), but there is usually an implicit agreement of a certain block of time, on certain days. If you can't abide the agreement, then you shouldn't make it. However, if you convinced someone to pay you salary, and then just do as you please, that's great. But it's not a career, kiddo.

    25. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In my experience as IT support, non IT people ARE basically chimps with computers. Its like giving the keys to a Dodge Viper to a 12 year old thats played Grand Theft Auto....the results arent pretty.

    26. Re:Simpler solution... by KingKaneOfNod · · Score: 1

      Or even better, just get rid of the computers! There, problem solved.

    27. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm one of those people that has to come in and clean up after an infection. There are several things you can do:

      1) STOP RUNNING IN ADMIN MODE!
      2) Lock down the user permissions via AD Group Policies
      3) Good, decent, antivirus software. Stop using the free crap like AVG! (Note: I do NOT recommend anyone use McAfee or Symantec...)
      4) General knowledge about how the nasty stuff works and what to do when you're met with a popup box that says "you may be infected, click ok to scan"
      5) STOP RUNNING IN ADMIN MODE!
      6) Lockout Facebook & MySpace... Explain to your employees why (the ads are particularly nasty infection points). Punish anyone that decides to circumvent the security of the network.

      OR:

      1) Format and install Linux.

      On my network, I have things split. One side is the business side of the network, with the SBS server, general workstations, etc. They're locked down with 1 admin for the entire network. Everyone else - including my daily login, is a standard user and only 2 employees have that non-standard username and password. I have Group Policies setup to auto-lock after 5 mins, a 3-attempt lockout policy (a bit extreme for most businesses), etc.The second side of the network houses wireless access and any client PC's that need to connect to the internet for _anything_. That's on it's own seperate router, subnet, dedicated IP and locked out of the other side of the network via firewall.

      Business owners need to educate themselves on what they're doing wrong before they start blaming their employees. Being an enabler is just as bad as being an offender. One of my clients got at least 1 infection a month. They changed AV software and adjusted security settings and *poof*, things instantly worked out. Another client has some problems with security, but is running decent AV software and has a decent employee policy about what is good and bad - things are fine. 2 businesses, 2 security settings, but each is doing what THEY need to do.

    28. Re:Simpler solution... by MacGyver2210 · · Score: 1

      Your dependence on utterly useless and rampant societal time-sucks like Facebook and Twitter depresses me greatly. I wonder if we could have already achieved monumentally great things in biology, science, and space travel if not for these wasteful uses of our technology and time.

      The transition of the personal computer from a productive tool to a frivolous waste of time has been one of the saddest phenomenon I have had to witness over the last 10 years.

      --
      If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
    29. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this sounds and reads like an employee not focused on business to us

    30. Re:Simpler solution... by MacGyver2210 · · Score: 1

      If you could convince people to do those things on the internet without getting sidetracked onto facebook or some social media site which has absolutely no productivity value, then please do. I'm sure we'd all appreciate it. The fact is, people are far too dependent on those things and feel like they're being left out if they can't check on them every few minutes. The fact is, if you're at work, you SHOULD be left out - at least until you finish work.

      I propose instead of blocking internet, we have an application for office computers which essentially keep track of internet activity on the employee's computer. If the employee is hourly, they should essentially be 'punched out' from work during any time they spend on social sites, forums, etc. Anything the company deems to be non-work-related. If the employee is not hourly, then deduct a prorated amount from their salary based on the time they spend screwing around each month. I would imagine as soon as the person gets that first paycheck showing how much they were docked for all the time they spent on myspace instead of working, that they will reorganize their priorities a little. Understandably you'd leave things like internet radio sites and business-necessary sites off the list. There's a slight potential for abuse, but in what company is there absolutely no way for employers to screw employees? That seems like a right all companies have, from my experience.

      If you NEED to be connected to those time wasting sites so badly it can't wait, I believe that's what they're calling Internet Addiction these days.

      --
      If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
    31. Re:Simpler solution... by TouchAndGo · · Score: 1

      Attitudes like this are why SEC higher ups think spending 8 hours a day downloading porn at work is acceptable.

    32. Re:Simpler solution... by Andrew916 · · Score: 1

      You're probably the customer who has his streaming music playing in the background when he's calling support to ask, "Is there anything wrong with the system? It seems really slow." Quite frankly, and I'm speaking on behalf of just about all IT people, we don't care what you do with the internet connection so long as what you are doing with it does not interfere with everyone's jobs. As soon as someone uses the IT department as an excuse for why they didn't get whatever accomplished, the network gets locked down.

    33. Re:Simpler solution... by thesandtiger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can set different policies for different kinds of users. Users who are in the psychology department and who do sex research *probably* shouldn't be barred from going to websites the net-nanny software calls "sexual or adult content" while people who work in the university accounting office *probably* should. Someone who doesn't work in IT but who's job requires installing and trying out 2-3 bits of software on an average day to see if it's useful for research should *probably* not have their ability to install software on a sandbox computer restricted, while someone who works with very sensitive records in the hospital patient records office probably shouldn't be given the keys to the kingdom. Regardless of whether or not the workplace has 5 or 50,000 (as there are at my university, including students) users, there are usually going to be a fairly limited number of groups people will fall into.

      Computers in the workplace are to get work done, not to be the private fiefdom of some control-freak. I don't, actually, care if keeping my computer locked down so I am continually inconvenienced because I can't install software myself or go to websites I need to visit reduces the burden on IT. I'm an educator and a researcher at a university; the purpose of the university is to educate people and do research, not maintain good computers. My needs trump theirs, to put it bluntly, so they need to get the hell out of my way and let me work.

      I probably sound like a complete bitch, but the fact of the matter is, I don't enjoy wasting my time or my student's money sitting around with my thumb up my ass because some nitwit admin has decided that he can't be bothered to learn how to do his job well.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    34. Re:Simpler solution... by b4k3d+b34nz · · Score: 1

      Well, it speaks volumes that you believe that human beings, who are the most generalized species in the world, should sit down, shut up, and do a narrow-minded--regardless of how brain-intensive your job--set of tasks for something like 8-12 hours per day consecutively. If you have a job where you're required to use that stuff between your ears, it's better to take breaks, stop focusing, and think about other things in life once in a short while.

      Why should I have to compartmentalize my entire personal life and shove it in a corner? Who says that work is priority #1? That's an unhealthy viewpoint, and one that's likely to turn you into a scrooge.

      Leaving your personal issues at the door is about as ridiculous as saying you're not going to be thinking about work over the weekend or on your drive home. Clearly there's overlap in all sorts of areas in your life.

      You're too extreme the other way.

      --
      Grammar Lesson: you're is a contraction of "you are"; your means you possess something; yore means days gone by.
    35. Re:Simpler solution... by JonJ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Professionals are paid for their time. Period.

      I don't know how you work, but I get paid for the results I achieve in a certain time. They don't pay me for my time, as that's relatively worthless to them.

      --
      -- Linux user #369862
    36. Re:Simpler solution... by Dahamma · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As cynically as he stated it, I'm going to have to agree with him, as least as far as most office jobs are concerned.

      While you may technically be paid to "work" for some minimum number of hours, with the increase in telecommuting, flex schedules, and honestly just the modus operandi in tech jobs these days, time is one of the worst ways to judge productivity, and is rarely a significant factor in any type of focal review.

      Results matter. If you are in sales and bring in $10M in revenue with 30 hours a week of effort, while your co-workers brings in $1M with twice that, it's pretty clear who's getting the "big bonus" this year. Your boss probably won't know or care how much of that time was spent on Facebook vs meeting with customers, as long as you meet or exceed expectations.

    37. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Normally, I seek to learn one new word per day. But today was a day of solitude, of being propped up on an elbow, working under a low countertop, wiring up some gear which should never have been placed there to begin with.

      Thank you for providing me with two words today which I did not already know. Now, I may sleep.

    38. Re:Simpler solution... by AlexiaDeath · · Score: 1

      If somebody can sit 8 hours and do jack shit and nobody complains they can be fired and nobody would miss them. No company keeps such a position.

      Being paid by the hour is one of the silliest things there is Its a convenience feature. The most effective way is, I want you do X for Y money, want the job? Fixed price offer. If the worker is good he/she can do 6 of these in the same time a slower person does 1 and everybody gets value for their time.

      Salary is a sort of fixed price offer too. You pledge your time to do tasks they assign to you. The task load is agreed to be such that 40 hours of your week should be enough. The manager assigns the tasks and the deadlines. Keep missing those and you will be without a job. Normally at least in tech, this means when and how(within spec) exactly you do it is your business.

    39. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It speaks volumes that your point of view is effectively, "I work better when I'm slightly less focused on my personal stuff". Has it occurred to you to try focusing on your work, when it's work time, and leave your personal issues at the door? I know this isn't a popular opinion around here, but your email, facebook and txt messages can wait until you aren't being paid for your time. If they can't, then you have a problem, and you should get counseling, OR you need to take a furlough from work and get your life in order.

      A lot of companies won't go for that because of the corollary: people expecting then to leave their work issues at the door when they go home, and expecting to go home at the time that they stop getting paid. Many places are well-aware that there are tradeoffs in letting people's work and home lives blur together, but they are also aware that a typical company gains many more hours than it loses.

    40. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Professionals are paid for their time. Period. You can slice it however you want, but almost no one works piece meal. Most of those that do are VERY far down the skill ladders.

      Ummm, NO.

      Professionals (aka Salaried or Contracted workers) are paid for what they do. If it takes an hour a week or 100 to get the job done doesn't matter, they get paid the same.
      Hourly pay is technically not considered a "Professional" position.

      It was a nice try to slander me with accusations of working for McDonalds. Last time I checked, their POS terminals don't allow the user to initiate a web browser (or any other software).

      Yes, the point he was making is that people who work at McDisabled's don't need internet access while on the clock. Which is why the POS systems don't have general internet access, etc. The point you apparently missed is that you are treating professional employees like they are a pack of high school kids who swamp the floors 10 hours a week.

      If you continue to treat your employees like incompetent children, then eventually that'll be all you have left.

    41. Re:Simpler solution... by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      Professionals are paid for their time. Period. You can slice it however you want, but almost no one works piece meal. Most of those that do are VERY far down the skill ladders.

      Bleh, depends on the management style. If my boss tells me to spend the next 3 weeks writing an impact analysis en business case for a systems upgrade worth a couple hundred K he doesn't give a shit whether I do it at work, at home or on the beach so long as he can reach me.

      Officially I work 8 hour days and get paid as such. Effectively some days it's 10 hours, some days it's 6 and so long as I deliver what I promise to deliver, nobody gives a shit. It's a matter of establishing a relationship of mutual trust with a direct supervisor. He doesn't need or want to babysit me, and I know I can count on him to kick things up the corporate totempole when the situation demands it.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    42. Re:Simpler solution... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Why offer general internet access from office PCs anyway? Lock them down tight. If you want to be nice, have an unlocked PC or two with a completely separate Internet connection that can be used during break times for any minor personal details - checking personal email, reserving plane tickets, etc.

      You may not have noticed, but having access to the internet is actually quite useful for business activities too.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    43. Re:Simpler solution... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It truly has become bizzaro world. You need constant access to distractions to not be distracted. And I believe you.

      I don't, it's just an excuse.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    44. Re:Simpler solution... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Grownups aren't paid for their time; they're paid for their results.

      Bullshit, it depends what sort of work you're doing. I'm a professional (finance), but I am paid a salary to work 8 hours a day; and my boss would be seriously unimpressed if I just took a couple of hours off on a Friday afternoon because I thought I'd done enough for the week.

      Not all of us are self-employed consultants, or work in areas where results can be measured in terms of discrete projects, you know.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    45. Re:Simpler solution... by tehcyder · · Score: 3, Funny

      In my experience as IT support, non IT people ARE basically chimps with computers. Its like giving the keys to a Dodge Viper to a 12 year old thats played Grand Theft Auto....the results arent pretty.

      You're just envious of the people with real jobs who aren't stuck doing IT support.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    46. Re:Simpler solution... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Maybe because people like to listen to streaming music while they work.

      While I generally agree with your post, this is a tnuous reason to let someone have internet access at work. I've never worked anywhere professionally where you were allowed to listen to music while you worked (unless you were a graphic/web designer - they seemed to get away with it).

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    47. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Salaried employees are generally paid for time, not results, though results are expected (most salaried positions are "40 hours/week" and you have limited vacation and sick time, counted in hours or days). Also, consultants are generally paid by the hour or a smaller time interval (5/10/20/30 minute blocks).

    48. Re:Simpler solution... by archmcd · · Score: 1

      I'm a systems engineer. I'm paid for my time, and I get bonuses and pay increases for my results.

      --
      I'm not an expert, but I play one on slashdot.
    49. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's 2010, do your job, do it well and stop acting like the non IT employees are a bunch of chimps.

      The unfortunate problem is, there are a few people that ruin it for everyone. You may not be a knucklehead, browsing the interwebs all day, but someone else is.

    50. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes being a harda$$ is needed. (This doesn't mean you have to be an a$$hole in the process)

      In our business we had to lock down external IM and streaming anything due to either people sending sensitive information out or limiting the ability of sending/receiving valid, time sensitive data across the Internet. Also in the past we have had problems with some people, not all, spending their whole day just IMing with friends and family instead of being productive. These of course are not people that have a bottom line to look at for results.

      With all of that said, a lot of times the true problem is not what people are doing but what their managers allow them to do. If you don't have managers that actually manage their employees then someone has to step in. Do we need to monitor Internet usage? No. Do we even want to? No. Do the managers expect us to report on Sally's? you bet. Is this perfect? heck no But it is how it is.

      We have anti-virus software. We run mal-ware scans. We have a firewall. We have off-site and on-site backup plans. We have a third party company monitoring internet and email traffic but bugs of any kind. We have critical updates handled. We have an IT Policy which is fairly simple.

      Most of the time if you explain why you are doing something people will be able to except the limitations easier.

    51. Re:Simpler solution... by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I tend to agree with kklien, in that I would like to be compensated for my work, not for the time I took to accomplish the work.

      I am not compensated for ideas I have in the shower, or stuff that comes to me in dreams. My company wants me to put 40 hours into a timesheet every week, sometimes more, but never less, unless I'm taking leave time. It doesn't matter to them if I can get everything they want me to do in 30 or 20 hours. If I can, they'll find more work for me to do to fill up the remaining time. It doesn't matter to them whether it has anything to do with my career field or not.

      I wear a pager and there's an expectation that I'll respond to pages potentially at any time, as though I'm a firefigher constantly on duty. I'm not compensated for all the time I wear the pager. My stance is that if they can page me at any time, intruding into my personal time, and expect me to drop whatever I'm doing and come in and do work, then they can damn well let me do some personal stuff during work hours, as long as I'm delivering consistent, high quality results. This includes casual web surfing, making personal phone calls, sending faxes from the office, and doing business with companies whose only hours of operation happen to be the same hours that I'm expected to be in the office doing work.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    52. Re:Simpler solution... by macaddict · · Score: 1

      Grownups aren't paid for their time; they're paid for their results. I'm sorry to hear that you still work at McDonald's.

      You've never worked an office job, have you? You are never done. There is always some new task your boss has for you. And trust me, even if you've completed every essential task for the day, they can come up with a lot of really pointless tasks that, to them, are vitally important to the company.

      Back when dinosaurs ruled the Earth (before widespread internet usage), somehow we grownups managed a whole work day without having to chat with our friends or watching "greatest hits to the groin" videos. You know, we actually worked the hours we were paid to work! *gasp!* It's a wonder we ever survived! But I guess it's because we weren't saddled with the overblown sense of entitlement and self-importance that seems so rampant these days.

      And get off my lawn!

    53. Re:Simpler solution... by cecille · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      If we were all paid just for time, then everybody would be in at 8:30 and out the door promptly at 5 with exactly 30 minutes for a lunch break and no more. Nobody would have a blackberry and they could lock down the internet to their heart's content And that's one way to do it. Of course, locking down the internet also means employees don't necessarily have access to nice things that make their job easier, like the ability to quickly look up commands etc., but since we're just paying for time, efficiency doesn't matter one way or the other.

      On the other hand, it's also possible to create a workplace where it's OK to check slashdot if you're running tests or compiling code or something, and sending an email to a friend isn't a fireable offense. Those sort of workplaces also tend to be the types of workplaces where people don't mind staying a little late to get extra work done or help out a client. They're also the type of workplaces where people don't wake up every morning loathing their existance and hating their jobs. Call me crazy, but I think that counts for something too.

      --
      ...no two people are not on fire.
    54. Re:Simpler solution... by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Sorry that my sarcasm didn't come through. The original question was about a small business that keeps getting tanked by $75/hr consulting fees for de-virusing a computer that the office manager - an otherwise excellent employee - keeps hosing. Now, if you're that small, you don't have anything like the options available to a university with thousands of employees and students. They can't afford a full-time sysadmin. They're going to have a lot of trouble affording the time for someone to just lock it down partway. Lock the work computers down. Install a separate one (that runs a sandboxed VM that is overwritten every time the browser starts up) for Internet use. Now your machines that are used for MS Word don't die because Pauline just can't resist clicking on cute puppies.

    55. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looks like someone forgot to take their meds. . . .

    56. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still paid for time. The non-productive worker may get fired, but s/he still gets paid for the time s/he worked.

    57. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd make the kind of admin I despise.

      Maybe because people like to listen to streaming music while they work. Maybe because people like to do research online while they work. Maybe IM is a useful form of communication. Maybe you want to research your clients or competition or do SEO or some graphics tutorials or download an editor for something yada yada yada. Don't hire total noobs, do your job of installing the latest updates, run some anti-virus (insert McAfee joke here), and have an understood IT policy - understood meaning people understand your concerns, not just "the rules". You can never have perfect security, but you can have reasonable security without being an ass about it. You can also have a backup plan, like backing up documents on a schedule to a safe(r) system and having a disc image to recover a system from reasonably quickly.

      Yours is an office I wouldn't work in, and maybe there is something to say for self-selection of the people that would.

      I agree it's somewhat reasonable to allow employees access to streaming music during work hours, but the bandwidth usage adds up. We recently got our CIR bumped because streaming music from the majority of our employees (it took on a viral effect) put us above our 95% burst. This alone resulted in a tripling of our monthly bandwidth costs. There are real costs associated with things like this.

    58. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd make the kind of admin I despise.

      Maybe because people like to listen to streaming music while they work.

      I'm only going to address this one, but I'm sure I could continue for the rest of your comment.

      How many people are going to listen to streaming music? Just you? Why not the entire office? Eight HUNDRED people later, all your tubes are full, and the CIO is being yelled because the network is slow.

      do your job of installing the latest updates...

      That is not the only thing an admin must worry about. You've been on the internet, you know what people can do. Installing iTunes, warez, porn, delete this, rename that. If the balance didn't lean towards "locked down", an admin would either spend all his time either fixing what the user did, or constantly trying to keep the user from unknowingly breaking something.

    59. Re:Simpler solution... by jp10558 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, I deal with users like you every day. If management would let us sign over the responsibilities that come with admining the computer over to you in addition with the increased rights, I'd be fine. I.e. if your computer gets a virus and we could say, not our problem, you clean it up as you're the "admin of record" then I'd be fine with what you want. But if I have to drop my projects, or push off a computer that needs an upgrade for someone who *wants* a managed, supported computer, then it annoys me.

      If you were responsible for the software licensing and EULA compliance for that computer, and the one to re-image if the software conflicts, and the one to figure out if installing that driver before installing Labview is why your hardware doesn't work with that PC, then fine, be admin.

      Or, heck, if your department wanted to pay someone's salary (even mine maybe) to sit around and re-image and re-install when the zbot infection gets your PC or the random software installs and uninstalls finally break Windows then that's that person's job. Or maybe pay the local consultant / geek squad / whatever to do it.

      A lot of this is of course management - they have to decide what balance of IT they want paid to re-image PCs weekly and what balance they want enabling new infrastructure, new OSs, new capabilities etc.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    60. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my experience as IT support, non IT people ARE basically chimps with computers. Its like giving the keys to a Dodge Viper to a 12 year old thats played Grand Theft Auto....the results arent pretty.

      Accountants? Sure. CEOs? Oh yeah. Solaris System Administrators and Software Engineers with 20+ years experience? Not so much.

      When IT can understand the difference between Biff on the loading dock trying to install WoW because he's bored, and a software engineer trying to install Eclipse so he can do his job...then we can talk. If all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you fill IT with chimp wranglers, everyone looks like a chimp.

      Okay, that's overstating it. The IT staff has a rough job, and everyone is stupid from time to time. I respect their efforts. All I want is a bit of respect in return.

    61. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting point of view. Let me ask you something; when you leave work do you ever take any of your work home? If you don't take your work home than you are not a 'professional'. People who are able to leave their work in their cubes after their eight-hour work day are simply workers and can be replaced with anyone else in the world with a modicum of training. If you do take work home, and you still subscribe to your rather outmoded idea of the Protestant Work Ethic, then you are clearly cheating yourself out of your own time. If you think work time is for work and non-work time is for personal activites as you clearly do, then taking any work home would be a gross violation of your personal ethics.

      Here's how the grown-ups see it; my time is for getting my work completed -- all of my work. If I am professional I will conduct myself in such a way that I will get most of my job-tasks finished during business hours. I work during business hours because that's when everyone else agrees to work. I will finish my work before my deadline even if that means taking my work home with me because my work is importnat to me. since I am dedicated to completing my tasks and since I am a professional in my field I will not create artificial boundaries to work while I am away from my desk. At the same time I will not create artificial boundaries to things I need to do during business hours that are not required by my job duties. I won't let these non-job things distract me any more than I would let a water-cooler conversation drag on for hours and hours. I will prioritize my tasks -- all of my tasks -- so that I finish my work. I will do all of this because I am an adult and my personal life makes me a better employee just as my job makes me a better person.

      The nasty and short version, junior, is since my employer wants me to do work after-hours he had better get used to me doing after-hours things during work.

    62. Re:Simpler solution... by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

      That's more or less how we run things now. Everyone in our group is, for the most part, responsible for their own kit. We had to do a bit of training to make it work, but the results have been wonderful - our group is largely able to solve their own problems, generally doesn't do stupid shit in regards downloads, and we're able to get our work done. The only time we need to interface with IT is when there's some kind of hiccup between our group and theirs. We're happier, they're happier, and everyone is more productive.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    63. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an employee at a hospital, I'd think you wouldn't mind a steady rate of infection. Isn't the removal of that kind thing what is done at a hospital?

    64. Re:Simpler solution... by KahabutDieDrake · · Score: 1

      I don't think I'm prepared to use TAX code to define professional.

      Let me give you a simpler definition. Someone that is paid to produce results, in a specific time frame. Now, we here, can probably easily deliver, and still keep up on /. and facebook. My point being, imagine what you could deliver if you actually FOCUSED.

      I'm as guilty as the next guy, but when I REALLY shut out my private life, I get considerably more work done. I will grant that long periods of this can be negative, but short periods of this are productive and shouldn't impact your social life in a significant way.

    65. Re:Simpler solution... by lonecrow · · Score: 1

      Except for the 60% or more of us that are contractors in which case we may bill by the hour but are paid for results. Which begs an interesting question for slashdotters: Do the hours you bill for bear any resembelence to the hours you actualy worked?

    66. Re:Simpler solution... by Lunzo · · Score: 1

      Try leaving work at lunch time tomorrow if you aren't paid for your time...

    67. Re:Simpler solution... by clark40 · · Score: 1

      Seems pretty reasonable to me. If you hire them and it turns out they don't know what they are doing, you can lose money directly (like the above), or indirectly (as they spend a day or two to do a simple task ccnp before you find out they didn't know what they were doing).

    68. Re:Simpler solution... by JonJ · · Score: 1

      I always do

      --
      -- Linux user #369862
    69. Re:Simpler solution... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Arguably, hourly pay(or salary, which, unless you are somehow skating out the door at lunch half the time, or your boss is really screwing you on the unpaid overtime, is basically equivalent to hourly but more stable), can function as a kind of insurance structure. Similar to the "lawyering up when needed" vs. "having lawyer on retainer".

      In internal IT/operations, say, demand ebbs and flows. Some days the shit really hits the fan, some days are merely full, some days everything actually works properly, with minimal intervention.

      The company has basically two options: They can try to be all dynamic, bringing in pricey white-knight consultants when the situation gets busy, and scraping by on the core "minimal intervention" staffing level the rest of the time. Or, they can hire an average number, knowing that they'll be a bit over-busy some days, and have some definite downtime other days(which, in an ideal world, can go into research/self-training/experimentation on process improvement).

      In many(though not all) cases, the latter actually works out to be cheaper. Even genuinely brilliant people take a little while to get their bearings, and the facts on the ground, when plopped into a new situation. That, plus the premium that consultants command for their flexibility, can make them extremely expensive. Even if they are "working" for all the hours you are paying them, "getting up to speed on your environment" is work; but isn't useful to you. Permanent people only have to do it once, plus, people demand less money in stable positions.

    70. Re:Simpler solution... by Nesman64 · · Score: 1

      Keep up that talk and you'll find yourself only able to connect to websites with odd-numbered ip addresses.

      --
      coffee | nose > keyboard
    71. Re:Simpler solution... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      The hospital's information should be on a network that is wholly internal, no connection to the outside world. Period. The web is too important to not allow employee access.

      Seems like a contradiction, but think of an internal network and an external network. Like 2 computers for people that need access to both. One internal and one external. Maybe a KVM for the minimalists. The only way for the private stuff to get out would be a deliberate internal act.

      Until we figure that out, we're going to continue to hear stories about how thousands of people's credit cards were hacked, or private records inadvertently released, and on and on.

      --
      Why is this even on SlashDot?... Why is this even on Slashdot?...Why is this even on Slashdot?
    72. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excuse me.. Google something for you, print it out, and deliver it? If that request EVER showed up at my desk or one of my employees' desks, I'd personally tell the asker to FOAD. IT is not your secretery. Your ignorance of the proper way to use a computer is what turns admins into network nazis to begin with. Let end users install their own software? Oh, that sounds like a GREAT idea! Imagine all the HIPAA and PCI violations we'd have then! Oooh, and if any of those violations happen to include information on a MA resident, then it's a $5k PER RECORD fine! You downloaded some software from a questionable source, installed it, and leaked 200 MA residents information as a result? That's a ONE MILLION DOLLAR fine (and that's just statutory, not to mention any civil actions brought against the company due to resultant identity theft). All because you didn't know any better. Admins perform their duties in the best interest of the COMPANY, not the best interest of the lUser.

    73. Re:Simpler solution... by chrysrobyn · · Score: 1

      Professionals are paid for their time. Period. You can slice it however you want, but almost no one works piece meal. Most of those that do are VERY far down the skill ladders.

      That view is going to limit you. In my job, the more I can modularize, the more I can automate, the more I can call on previous experience -- that results in being able to work more efficiently. My employer cares that objectives are completed on time. If I can do it in 30 hours a week, and a coworker takes 50, we're judged the same. If I then take on an additional 10 hours of work, I'm a team player working on broad horizons, and I'm going further with my career.

      Customer work is similar. 15 years ago, my employer was contracted to deploy workstations for a major engineering firm. The customer was educated -- they knew it took 2 hours to deploy a workstation. They argued about billable hours, etc., the contract was awarded, and I began the work. I built 2 stations that way, spent an hour to ensure I understood the dd command, and each workstation was 15 minutes after that. Of course, the contract stipulated 2 hours of billable hours for every workstation, no more NO LESS.

      Even when we're paid by the hour, a good engineer (who is, by definition lazy) will be able to reduce the work necessary by finding common tasks in his job. Nearly every intellectual job has some ability for automation.

    74. Re:Simpler solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should I wear a condomn if I were to fuck with your computers now?

  4. Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Jbcarpen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A lot of people can recognize such things already. They just don't want to take the time to bother with it. So dock the cleanup costs out of their pay, suddenly they'll be a LOT more careful about what they trust.

    When I was younger, the mother of one of my friends was bad enough about it that her computer needed wiping on a weekly basis. My friend wasn't much of a computer person, but he at least knew what not to do. Unfortunately he was stuck using the same machine and so still had to deal with it. For a while I was fixing it for them for free since he was a friend, but when I started charging $20/hour for cleanup his mother changed her ways amazingly quickly.

    --
    GENERATION 667: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation
    1. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by wikid_one · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Money always makes people think twice.

      I cleaned up a PC that had over 500 (was several years ago, don't remember the exact number) infections. They were a friend of my dad's so I just charged him some gas money, since all I did was throw in an unattended XP CD and waited for it to finish.

      I received a phone call from him before I had even made it home... about 15 min away. The AV I installed had already found several viruses on there. He got mad and said he was taking it to Best Buy. After they charged him $350 to reinstall Windows like I had just done, he was more than willing to sit down with me and let me show him how to be more secure with his computer use.

    2. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's illegal to dock employees' pay for damage to the employer's property.

      For accidental damage, employees have no liability at all: It's considered the employer's responsibility to manage its workplace in a way that minimizes accidental damage, and any that does occur is considered a cost of doing business. Viruses routinely appearing on company machines, especially if it happens to many employees' machines, is probably in that category.

      For damage done intentionally or through serious negligence, the employee may be responsible, but the employer still cannot dock their pay; they must sue the employee to recover the damages, and must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the damage was inflicted intentionally or negligently.

    3. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      So dock the cleanup costs out of their pay, suddenly they'll be a LOT more careful about what they trust.

      Yeah, and that is going to work just as well as those 40-something 'businessmen' who think everything is going to ruin their hardware. Surely you've met a few, you know, the people who buy the $2,000 Sony computers with Core i7s but won't run anything more than IE, their corporate e-mail because it might 'damage' their computer? When people are afraid to use technology, productivity will drop -far- below when they use it for whatever. A re-image takes, what, 5, 10 minutes? An employee scared to use technology takes out many, many, hours of work.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    4. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      It's illegal to dock employees' pay for damage to the employer's property.

      Are you sure? A quick Google suggests that this is true if the employee is exempt, if it wasn't in their contract, or if it would pull them below minimum wage, but not otherwise.

    5. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by LordLimecat · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Did you check that competency quiz by sonicwall? People are expected to know the following to pass that test:
      • What HTTPS is, what HTTP is, and which is better
      • How any given company will format their emails-- will Yahoo address them by account number, or name? Or "member"?
      • How the DNS heirarchy works-- that Internal Revenue Service emails will come from a .gov, and what that means
      • What a legitimate domain name will look like (paypal.com isnt the same as paypal.com.somethingelse.net?)
      • How to check where a link points to without clicking it

      May sound reasonable to a tech guy, but a lot of this isnt stuff that can easily be taught. Seems to me a lot of this is trying to ignore the fact that the existing DNS and SMTP systems are a mess and just blaming the user for being a retard.

      Maybe its just me, but when people hire me as an IT consultant, I generally assume its because they want ME to take care of the technical details, not blame them for not being able to pass a Net+ exam. Perhaps that paycheck youre earning is so that YOU can handle the complexities of spam and viruses? Just a thought.

    6. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      Ah yeah, I was assuming salaried (exempt) employees, which is the norm for office jobs that involve routine use of computers; though I suppose there are some hourly-wage data-entry jobs.

      There are some cases where hourly workers can have their pay docked, but even then, as the site you link to says, only if "caused by the employee's gross negligence, or dishonest or willful act." And the bar for gross negligence is fairly high, not just anything that could have been prevented if the employee had been more careful.

    7. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by LordLimecat · · Score: 1
      If your users can do significant damage to their computers by clicking links, perhaps its your salary that should be docked. Maybe try, oh, I dont know...
      • Not running as admin
      • keeping your OS and browsers up to date
      • Locking down what browser plugins exist and can run
      • setting up a proxy to filter out "bad stuff" (exe, pdf, etc)

      Seems to me that sort of thing falls on the sysadmin to worry about.

    8. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by demonlapin · · Score: 2

      only if "caused by the employee's gross negligence, or dishonest or willful act."

      Only in California. The federal law (FLSA) allows docking pay if the contract allows it and it doesn't bring the employee below minimum wage.

    9. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well you can try docking my pay, but we are going to have issues. Court is going to be your first. Oh you ARE going to have to fire me, but I will be underhanded enough to make it look like your fault. And once I am fired I will have LOTS of time putting together my case against you. Badmouthing you to your clients, as untraceable as possible (enough so your going to have a hell of a time proving it, remember I have time now). So if you want to be a douche and dock my pay because you were too cheap or lazy to maintain your equipment, yeah it will be war.

      Signed
      Anonymous Coward (we are everywhere)

    10. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Jbcarpen · · Score: 1
      Perhaps, but the story author doesn't have an IT guy.

      Heck, my grandma is better about computer security than the 'manager' mentioned in the story.

      --
      GENERATION 667: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation
    11. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      You have lots of time to be unemployed, with no unemployment benefits because you got fired...

      Seriously, I'm not an employer, but if I were I'd be laughing really hard.

    12. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by rootofevil · · Score: 1

      and recovering from a data breach takes, what, infinity time? an employee being cavalier with their access can cause unmeasurable damage to the company they work for.

      to be fair, i mostly agree with you. i do think you took it a little too far though.

      --
      turn up the jukebox and tell me a lie
    13. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So in other words, you're a scumbag.

    14. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by shentino · · Score: 1

      They can dock your pay if they make agreeing to such a policy a condition of employment.

    15. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't think that holds up in every state at all. But even if it did, the negligence would be pretty trivial to prove. Most of those infections occur using company property for personal use. Usually in violation of the published policy if it exists.

      Negligence? Check.
      Willful? You did have them sign the employee handbook right?

      Sure, there's viruses. But most of the spyware and stuff... well...antivirus is worthless professionally speaking. Really only helps with PEBKAC users. The nasty spyware that you have to format to fix...yeah--they got that going somewhere they didn't belong.

      Yes, I've personally troubleshot spyware coming in through adfarms--but thing is...so far--that's relatively rare.

      Of course, I handle it by bringing my own laptop in for personal use. Most places probably wouldn't be so lenient...but my system's cleaner than the ones at the office... Seeing as upper management basically forbade network based antivirus and IPS.

    16. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      True if you're hourly, but not allowed for salaried employees even if they agreed to it (because salaries aren't allowed to have conditions).

    17. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Minwee · · Score: 1

      with no unemployment benefits because you got fired

      What a horrible, backwards world you must live in.

      Do they take away your health care when you get sick too? And does your car insurance stop if you have an accident?

    18. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by AzureDiamond · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's true. We used to dock their pay, now my IT Black Guards - recruited from building security - just beat them to death with a shovel and bury them under the flowerbeds outside.

    19. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      FWIW, you have no idea just how fucked up the world I live in is.

    20. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by PachmanP · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's true. We used to dock their pay, now my IT Black Guards - recruited from building security - just beat them to death with a shovel and bury them under the flowerbeds outside.

      That process risks too much loss of intellectual capital. I would suggest you only break a knee cap, or have employees work in pairs to reduce single point losses of knowledge.

      --
      You're thinking small. Why miniaturize the laser, when we could instead enlarge the sharks? -John Searle
    21. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      uh huh, But if it is company policy to NOT visit non-work-related web sites and to NOT use company computers -especially on company time (that means at the times one is being paid to work on company business) for personal email or other personal use, and this one employee that visits the non-work-related sites while on paid time on the company computer, is on the one computer that gets the virus or bug, and it can be shown to be so in the logs and records in the computer used, that employee CAN certainly be fired for violating company policy

    22. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had a previous employer require that everyone sign a paper indicating the company may hold them liable for any damage to assigned company property. This didn't go over well. Some people signed anyway, some ignored it, some marked it up then signed it. Of course we were told it would never be used irresponsibly.

    23. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...have employees work in pairs to reduce single point losses of knowledge.

      I prefer to configure my employees with RAID-6, but it's hard to find hardware which supports it.

    24. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but the story author doesn't have an IT guy.

      The solution to that is not to have every single member of staff an IT guy in their own right. There are plenty of people in this world who know just enough to be dangerous, I can't think of anything worse than filling an office with such people.

      It doesn't help that in many parts of the world there's so much competition that setting up a business being "the IT guy" for a number of small companies is simply not going to pay enough for anyone halfway-competent to want to do it for any length of time.

    25. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      May sound reasonable to a tech guy, but a lot of this isnt stuff that can easily be taught. Seems to me a lot of this is trying to ignore the fact that the existing DNS and SMTP systems are a mess and just blaming the user for being a retard.

      Honestly, I don't see anything in that list that I couldn't teach my 8 year old nephew on a rainy afternoon.

      I honestly doubt anyone willing to invest a little brainpower would be unable to pick up these tidbits of knowledge. And honestly, if it's "too much work" or "too difficult" I'd strongly suggest either going without internet during work or alternatively a new career in, say, garbage disposal.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    26. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      Damn I wish I had mod points today. You are correct. In almost all places besides California employees basically have only one right. Discrimination. Also, an employee trying to prove that one is kind of hard. Ask those guys that turned Massey Energy in for violations after the coal mine disaster. About 10 people got fired over that.

      http://www.masseyenergyco.com/

      Oh, how the US has changed. You don't have any rights any more and guilty until innocent is usually what really happens in today's world.

    27. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by demonlapin · · Score: 1
      Incidentally, check out the policies of New York, one of the most pro-labor states out there:

      You may be denied benefits if:

      * You were fired because your employer alleged that you violated a company policy, rule or procedure, such as absenteeism or insubordination; because of a disagreement or dispute with a boss or co-worker; or you were fired for any other reason.

      It's one thing to get laid off, but why on earth should you pay unemployment benefits to someone who gets fired for a bad attitude?

    28. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most companies that require you to have use of a Company PC generally require you to sign
      some sort of Electronic Data policy when you are hired or when given access to a PC.

      Maybe you should take a look @ that document again and familiarize your self with it.
      I believe most say that the PC is to be used for Business purposes.

    29. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by burris · · Score: 1

      Unmeasurable because the actual damage to the company is so small. Data breaches are way overrated. Nobody gives a shit about your data. Your competitors aren't interested because the risk of getting caught outweighs the small benefits. Thieves want your customers data if you have card numbers but losing them isn't going to kill your company. Just look at TJ Maxx and Heartland. Heartland should be dead now, right??

    30. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      Sure - but see:
      http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1633504&cid=32008666

      If management *won't* let you do that, then the person who does the "bad practice" ought to be the responsible party.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    31. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      I suppose it depends on your setup (and please elaborate as I'd love to improve mine), but sure, maybe 20Minutes to get the image down over the network or 5 from a USB HD. 10 minutes installing drivers and joining the domain etc.

      But then you have to restore / reconfigure Outlook settings for them, restore any data files they need, help them re-set up their desktop shortcuts so they can find their folders etc.

      Then there's all the non-standard software they may need - where I work that can be days of installing Labview, Autodesk Inventor, Ansys, Matlab, Igor Pro, Microsoft Project, Adobe Acrobat, Adobe Creative Suite, TortiseSVN, Visual Studio, etc, etc. Not every system needs all of the software so it's basically a per user after config. I've found that a re-install of a PC can take an average of a week before they have it back and are reasonably productive again.

      Of course, if all the user needs is our standard image, it takes about 35 minutes, but that is rare.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    32. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Security always works in layers!

      Perhaps that paycheck youre earning is so that YOU can handle the complexities of spam and viruses? Just a thought.

      The problem is: You simply can't handle all of the complexities. Not ever. Yes, it is reasonable to expect you to try to filter spam and viruses to the best level possible. But even if you do that, you can't be 100% secure.

      So let's say you have good filters and good anti-virus, but still, you won't be able to catch 100%. Lets assume 99% (that would be great, right?). You have done your job as well as you can and still things are coming through. Not on a daily basis, but they are coming through nevertheless. That damn user that knows nothing about all this will click on it. So great, you now lost $100 000 to ONE crook instead of five and you are part of ONE botnet instead of ten.

      Don't you think it would be great if your use just didn't click on that one phishing email that went through because it used a very clever and new technique to get past your filters? (that your filter vendor does not yet catch?).

    33. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by rootofevil · · Score: 1

      and yet companies still hire overpriced 'independant' consultants to analyze the breach and make a determination as to the value of the loss.

      --
      turn up the jukebox and tell me a lie
    34. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I suspect that that is something you would do for basically the same reason that evidence gathered by illicit means isn't allowed to be used at trial. Not because you actually want it to be(who would want to throw out evidence or pay unemployment to the office asshole?); but because its presence curtails worse behavior.

      If being fired "for disagreement or dispute with boss or co-worker" is grounds for denial of benefits, one strongly suspects that a lot of people who were on the layoff track will magically sprout really disagreeable personalities and simply unbearable attitudes... Instant savings.

    35. Re:Good way to encourage them to learn quickly by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Depending on how much direct purchasing and/or persuasive power you have, you might seriously wish to consider substantially increasing the number of images you keep.

      "Nearline" storage is crazy cheap these days. Say you have a user who won't be fully productive for a week following a re-image, and will have IT hovering around him during that week. Unless you are both being paid in peanuts, it would almost certainly be cheaper to have a machine/user-specific image. Assuming a modestly compressed image format, that's what, maybe 50GB on the outside, with a huge load of custom software, most likely down in the 5-10GB range?

      Even if you have virtually no purchasing pull, you should be able to get 2TB or more of space(RAID1 for protection against drive failure) to store user-specific images for your toughest cases for under $500(basically $200 each for 2TB drives, another $100 for a cheap RAID card if the discarded desktop from last year's refresh doesn't have one). If you have more serious pull, you could get something with data de-duplication and rack-rails for a few thousand.

      Failing that, or in addition to that, I'd make a policy of(whenever you have time), trying to look into ways of scripting/automating things that you find yourself doing. It sounds like you are in an MS environment, so that probably means getting familiar with WMI. It is pretty byzantine; but crazy powerful. Combine, for instance, a script that runs daily and dumps each user's list of desktop shortcuts to a SVN or similar version control system with a second script that can restore the desktop shortcuts from any particular revision. Should be totally doable with a bit of WMI-fu, should occupy miminimal space(since the list of desktop shortcuts is a tiny text file that doesn't' change much), and should save you a fair amount of time.

  5. I don't know by the_humeister · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But the place I work at gave me a computer with Ubuntu installed to use. I requested this after the McAfee incident last week. Apparently I'm the only one...

    1. Re:I don't know by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Honestly, if youre running a Symantec or McAfee product, you really lose any rights to complain about what happens to your computer / server.

    2. Re:I don't know by omglolbah · · Score: 2, Funny

      Global corporate policy forces me to install McAfee on every server I set up and run... even test servers for our lab.
      My manager has no say in it, her manager has no say... the head of the office in my country has no say in it... it is decided in germany by the central "IT Security" department.

      So... dont tell me what I can and cant do. If I had a choice I would dump mcafee... unfortunately I dont.

    3. Re:I don't know by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Im simply pointing out that complaining that a Symantec or McAfee product worked poorly, trashed your data, and left the toilet seat up is about as worthwhile as blaming your users for the viruses that they keep getting. Youre welcome to do it, but its not terribly productive.

    4. Re:I don't know by dtml-try+MyNick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Linux is simply not realistic in a regular office environment.

      I work at a non tech company with a lot of average Jane's and Joe's.
      We are talking about people who reboot their machine if tech-support tells them to restart a certain program. We are talking about people who don't know the difference between a url and a email adress. Cut/copy and paste is witchcraft. These people are good at what they do as long as the tools they have to work with just work.

      If shit hits the fan they are lost. If after a update button X is moved to another menu or simply 100 pixels to the right hell breaks loose.
      Now imagine what would happen if their "computer" doesn't look like the "computer" they are used to seeing at home and everywhere else. Production wouldn't slow down, it would do a full emergency stop, handbrake with smoking and screaming tires...

      And this is what a lot of nerds like "us" tend to forget a lot of the time.
      There are vast amounts of people out there who don't get computers, os-es and software. It's a tool and it should work, period. They don't care how it works, even if they did they wouldn't understand it because they have no feeling for it.

      --
      Life starts at the end of your comfort zone.
    5. Re:I don't know by omglolbah · · Score: 1

      Ah, it sounded more like a "Your own fault, stfu" message to me..

      Guess I was wrong :-p

    6. Re:I don't know by dylan_- · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Linux is simply not realistic in a regular office environment.

      I disagree. The main problem is if they need to exchange documents with people outside the company, and that's an Office software issue, not an OS issue.

      I work at a non tech company with a lot of average Jane's and Joe's.

      Well, I don't now, but I used to.

      We are talking about people....[snip]

      Yes, agreed.

      If after a update button X is moved to another menu or simply 100 pixels to the right hell breaks loose.

      No, it doesn't. They call up and say they can't find button X, and you show them where it is now, and they write it down on a post-it and stick it to the monitor along with the 20 others.

      Now imagine what would happen if their "computer" doesn't look like the "computer" they are used to seeing at home and everywhere else.

      Their work computer never looked like the one at home (e.g. it might run a locked down version of XP Pro, while they have Windows 7 at home). They don't use a computer anywhere else.

      And this is what a lot of nerds like "us" tend to forget a lot of the time.

      You say this, but seem to have missed the point yourself. People in an office don't "use a computer". They follow a process that (hopefully!) results in what they want. They get a load of envelopes printed, or a group email sent. If the process changes in some way, they're lost because they don't understand what the process is, they just have some steps they need to follow.

      And they can follow these steps just as well on Linux as they can on Windows.

      --
      Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
    7. Re:I don't know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then they don't need a computer- they need an appliance.

    8. Re:I don't know by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      They call up and say they can't find button X, and you show them where it is now, and they write it down on a post-it and stick it to the monitor along with the 20 others.

      Yeah, try fielding a few hundred of those calls, every 5 minutes. Then start updating your resume, because your boss (who has been making many of those calls himself) is about to call you into his office and let you know what he thinks of your brilliant new security plan to install Linux on everyone's computer.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    9. Re:I don't know by Lunzo · · Score: 1

      To be fair this is true for most people in an office environment. They have a handful of applications they run to do their job and couldn't care less about operating systems etc. As long as their applications work they're fine.

    10. Re:I don't know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are talking about people who don't know the difference between a url and a email adress. Cut/copy and paste is witchcraft.

      This is the point of this article. These people don't need to be working with a computer. No matter what trade you work in if you don't know how to use the tools it takes to do your work then you don't deserve the job. Learning computer skills is not that hard, and if working with a computer is part of your job no matter what the OS is it is your responisibility to learn how to use the tools of your trade.

      Basically people like this are either too fuckin lazy or too stupid. Let them go push a lawn mower for a living.

    11. Re:I don't know by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Probably not, it's just a comment on Symantec, which is what I call an approved virus. I've had their products wreck several systems, and trying to remove it is difficult, it sprays it's junk all over the hard drive. So if you use it, you just trade one evil for another.

      Haven't used McAfee, but I won't either, after events the other week.

      --
      Why is this even on SlashDot?... Why is this even on Slashdot?...Why is this even on Slashdot?
    12. Re:I don't know by dylan_- · · Score: 1

      Yeah, try fielding a few hundred of those calls, every 5 minutes.

      That's what IT support staff are for. If you don't have the staff to deal with a sudden influx of calls for a few days, then you stagger the deployment. Were you really stumped by this problem yourself?

      Then start updating your resume, because your boss (who has been making many of those calls himself) is about to call you into his office and let you know what he thinks of your brilliant new security plan to install Linux on everyone's computer.

      Well now I'm starting to think you've never actually had a job.

      Your boss would have been involved in the planning and execution from the start, so why would he be phoning you? He would certainly have been involved in the trial run and you'd already have addressed any user issues. In real companies you don't just randomly change things without planning it out beforehand.

      --
      Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
  6. Fairly simple comprehensive by redmid17 · · Score: 1

    Gave them do a couple of tasks 1) Give them a website to go to pull data from (could be anything you can put in a spreadsheet - weather, money, but something fairly simple should do) 2) Have them open excel and plot averages, totals, means, etc... (you can choose what is relevant) and make a chart of the data 3) Have them open word doc and insert the chart/data table into the word document and describe whatever data is there 4) Have them make a crappy 1 slide powerpoint slide to demonstrate it (still including the graph 5) have them save the file to a network drive after they map to it. 6) Lastly have them use the search function of whatever OS you're using to find said document after everything has been closed nothing too difficult, and these are relatively routine tasks that most office workers do on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.

    1. Re:Fairly simple comprehensive by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It's not the office stuff that's the problem, though.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  7. Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by ducomputergeek · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Get parallels or VMware if they really need Windows from something, have them run it in a virtual machine. Yes there may be an upfront cost to switch from MS Office for Mac from the windows version, but if the VM gets infected, nuke the VM and install a fresh one.

    Something we learned real quick was that higher up front costs with macs were quickly recovered since we weren't dealing with these type of problems on a regular basis.

    Hell, I have programmers that are good programmers but frankly don't know the first thing about systems administration.

    --
    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    1. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by v1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      (while I like the Get A Mac suggestion, perhaps something more windows-zealot-friendly...)

      or get something like Deep Freeze and have it simply restore the HD to factory every 2am. And use network home folders and shares for documents.

      Then you have ONE place to run the malware/av software on, the server's shares, at 2am while all the machines on the floor are reimaging themselves for tomorrow.

      (there's no point in suggesting something that they're unlikely to try even if you can make a good case for it or in fact are offering a very competitive suggetsion)

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    2. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      Good luck getting everyone to learn OS X, hiring -good- OS X admins, hardware support, and setting up the VM.

      For a small business, Macs are generally more harm than good, after all, most have one or two admins at most and most admins simply aren't good with people. Everything is different for the computer illiterate on a Mac. While a geek will be able to easily navigate between OS X, Unix, Linux, Windows, etc. your average employee (yeah, the one that thinks he deleted the internet one time when he removed the shortcut to IE) is going to need a month or more of training before it becomes second nature.

      Macs are also a pain to upgrade. While its pretty easy to buy ~20 cheap Dell PCs for $400 and just replace components, its a lot harder to do with a Mac Mini. CD drive goes out on the Dell? Just swap in a cheap $15 drive. CD drive goes out on the Mini? You need to find a specific model otherwise it isn't going to work right with the case.

      If you have a tech-based shop, yeah it might make sense to transition to Macs, for the average small business? Its just too much expense. Just get a PC, keep RAID servers, back up everything onto the servers and be good. If you -really- want to, install Linux to remove the virus problem. But Macs aren't cost effective for most small businesses.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    3. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Or to not throw your money down the drain replacing all your computers (if this is an option)..... Install linux on their existing computers using a network wide install, and then have them use VMware/Virtual box.

    4. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      It would also work if you replaced "Mac" with "PC with Linux", except that Linux OS and OpenOffice cost $0.

    5. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

      It would also work if you replaced "Mac" with "PC with Linux", except that Linux OS and OpenOffice cost $0.

      As heretical as it might be to say on here, I'd pick OS X over Ubuntu for a non-technical user. Ubuntu is definitely a friendly Linux (which I use daily at work), but it has enough rough edges and quirks I would rather pay the up-front cost and get (in theory) better efficiency from the employee (and definitely easier support).

    6. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      Deep Freeze doesn't actually re-image the computer - if you save a file locally, it's gone when you reboot it. It probably keeps a buffer or something at the end of a frozen partition.

      You can have it automatically reboot (thawed) to install Windows updates and run maintenance scripts.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    7. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by techno-vampire · · Score: 1
      I would rather pay the up-front cost and get (in theory)

      Where is this place called "Theory" that you mentioned? Are your company's offices located there? If not, what does it matter what would happen there?

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    8. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you've understood a different definition of "re-image" than I do, but I'm pretty sure that's what is supposed to happen in one. No files on the drive except for what's in the image.

      I think DeepFreeze does it by storing the image on a hidden partition on the same disk, though, so maybe that's what you're talking about?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    9. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the amount of work hours lost getting Stupuntu (TM) to actually do anything is not worth the trouble.
      And if you use a non-unbuntu linux distro, then OK the hax0rs won't be able to hack it but the n00bs won't be able to use it either.

      stupuntu is made to look friendly but when it comes down to it, it takes a lot of work even by a linux guru to make it usable and useful.

    10. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by DeltaHat · · Score: 1

      I installed Deep Freeze on my parent's computer years ago after they proved themselves unable to handle the responsibility of a computer. It turned out to be a godsend and took much of the burden off of both of us. They no longer fear damaging their computer with their ignorance - they are one reboot away from a fresh machine, and I no longer fear their phone calls. Deep freeze is extra handy in that it doesn't stop them from using their computer; it just resets it back to "factory" condition each time they reboot. All the windows functionality remains and it stays out of the way. If they really need to make a permanent change, they just have to reboot in defrost mode. I spent years futilely trying to teach my parents to safely use a computer. But since I couldn't take the knife away from them, I could only make sure it wasn't sharp enough to hurt anybody.

    11. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ok I'm a bit of a linux guru, and I had occasion to try ubuntu a few times recently
      (I generally use gentoo).

      ubuntu pretends to be friendly, but if you actually try to do anything with it aside from look
      through a menu and edit a text document, you will eventually end up pulling your hair
      and screaming 'u-(letter after b)unt-u'.

      I really don't know how the n00bs would fare any better - aside from just 'giving up' before getting to the hair-pulling stage.

      and seriously - forcing anonymous coward to wait 30 minutes between posts? wtf?

      > Slashdot requires you to wait between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.
      > It's been 16 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
      > and this is with cookies cleared too, so this whole ip address is blocked from posting comments more than once per x minutes with x>=16

    12. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by Z34107 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is possible that I misunderstood what you meant by "re-image." I work for IT on campus, and we deploy it on our lab images. So, I can tell you that it doesn't reboot our computer labs at 2am, pull a 5 GB image off of fast ethernet, and restart.

      It also doesn't keep a copy of the image in a hidden partition - we have images that take up more than half the size of the victim machine's hard drive; the technology that would make that possible would be more interesting than Deep Freeze itself.

      A frozen computer works exactly as a normal computer does - you can save documents, delete Windows files, even format the disk. Except that your changes are magically gone upon rebooting, like the computer has "amnesia." Wikipedia says it works by redirecting writes to disk sectors, which makes sense. It might redirect writes to a "hidden" partition, because modifying a frozen partition offline causes weird behavior.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    13. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by carp3_noct3m · · Score: 1

      Another vote for deepfreeze, (or something similar like Microsoft's free ?steady state?) I remember back in my senior year of HS when deepfreeze was first out, me being one of the known "hackers" was told by my teacher and computer mentor to see what I could do to bypass it. Even back then in its beta stage, I tried all kinds of things, deleting key files, total formats, and in the end the only way I was able to compromise DF was via hardware keylogger. I didn't know as much then as I do now but it was pretty awesome and I have seen it deployed it in many types of environments since then, usually on PC's that are public (like the business center at your apartment) but for anyone of questionable PC ability, get the version that allows a certain area to be permanently "thawed" tell them they must put any files there are they will be forever gone, and have someone come do updates every so often.

      --
      "It's ok, I'm completely secure as long as my iron is off"
    14. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      And Id rather pick windows over dealing with the costs of OSX.

      Looks like we have us an old fashioned stand-off....

    15. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll be moving my grandma from Mac to Ubuntu in a few days. *shrug* The Software Center, categorized applications, and sane window management should make it a lot simpler for her.

    16. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would also work if you replaced "Mac" with "PC with Linux", except that Linux OS and OpenOffice cost $0.

      As heretical as it might be to say on here, I'd pick OS X over Ubuntu for a non-technical user. Ubuntu is definitely a friendly Linux (which I use daily at work), but it has enough rough edges and quirks I would rather pay the up-front cost and get (in theory) better efficiency from the employee (and definitely easier support).

      Or since they're just running it inside a VM, just run a VM on Windows, then you don't have to retrain your users or buy new (and expensive) hardware, etc.

      Saying "get a Mac" in response to a question about security practices is a pretty shit-headed response. Most issues in this area are the result of social engineering attacks, not attacks directed at the hardware or software. Your Mac might be "immune" to "viruses" (and only if you define the term "virus" VERY narrowly), but it's NOT immune to malware, drive-by downloads, CSS vulnerabilities, DNS hacks, and NO system out there is secure from a user simply being fooled (social engineering) and just straight up GIVING away login credentials or other sensitive information.

    17. Re:Replace their PC's with Mac Mini's by newdsfornerds · · Score: 1

      Replace your "PC's" and "Mini's" with PCs and Minis. Aside from that, I agree with you.
      You add an "s" to make something plural. You don't need the apostrophe.

      --
      Damping absorbs vibrations. Dampening is caused by moisture.
  8. Remove admin rights by MyLongNickName · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    If the user does not have admin rights to his workstation, 95% of the problems go away. Don't throw out otherwise valuable workers because of lack of competence on the part of the sysadmin.

    --
    See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    1. Re:Remove admin rights by dougsk · · Score: 1

      +1 The right answer

    2. Re:Remove admin rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1 Mods on crack.

  9. Skills assessments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Previsor has extensive pre-employment online skills and knowledge tests. One from their catalog that comes to mind is the Information Security Awareness test, described as:

    This is an adaptive test that measures the candidate's knowledge of information security. Designed for general computer users, this test includes the following topics: Computer Best Practices, Computer Ethics & Misuse, ID & Data Information Theft, Internet Best Practices, Passwords, Physical Security, Sensitive Information, and Viruses & Other Harmful Software.

    http://www.previsor.com/products/assessments/catalog

  10. User? by Mooga · · Score: 1

    Make them run as user without any admin rights. Problems solved.

    --
    ~ Mooga
    1. Re:User? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      If you think that step alone fixes all problems, then I would suspect that your job doesnt involve keeping computers clean, or your users are partiicularly savvy. Antivirus 20xx doesnt need admin rights to close every userland app that opens with the message "this program is infected and was blocked", and youre STILL left with manually uninfecting the machine. Thats ignoring that the bug may have pulled some sort of escalation trick to run as admin irregardless.

    2. Re:User? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Don't let them use computers at all, just give them a pad of paper, a telephone and a box of pencils. Problem solved.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  11. Educating and lockdown by Dewser · · Score: 1

    It certainly isn't a bad idea to test new hires. I currently have a non-profit client that has a large number of service staff that use laptops. A majority of them have absolutely no clue how to use the computers. Most see the application and confirm they know how to use computers. Frankly I believe laptops are reserved for slightly more advanced end users. We were back and forth with this client a couple times a week because their most recent user was completely computer illiterate. She didn't know why her laptop wouldn't stay on.... I checked the docking station and the power cable was not connected.

    Many state agencies require prospective admin staff to take an exam before they can apply for a job. These exams cover a number of topics that have to do with the level of job they are going for. I don't see a problem with developing similar standards for non-government jobs. Then again its tougher for a small business with no IT staff to go through this. What I would recommend is to get your parents to hire an outside firm to help them not only with their IT support but with educating their users. They should easily be able to develop a hiring quiz for new hires as well as develop training plans for users.

    Locking down the workstations is also not a bad idea. Get regular users out of the local admin groups on the workstations. Make sure AV is being properly updated and even look into installing a small business class firewall that does some content filtering as well as gateway AV. Sonicwalls provide these services and usually at a pretty good rate.

    Good luck!!

    --
    Dewser - all around techy "In the immortal words of Socrates - 'I drank what?'"
  12. Make them maintain their own damn computer by bbernard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've started seeing companies go the route of getting rid of workstation computers. You, dear employee, get to bring in your own computer and connect up to our virtual workspace environment. No data ever ends up on your computer, and only a couple of key ports are open to our virtual space. The virtual space can't get to the Internet, you don't have admin access, etc. You can do whatever you want on your own computer, but when you get a virus, crash the OS, bust a hard drive, it's your problem to contact your computer vendor and get it fixed. You get a day to get that resolved, or we start making you take your vacation days or get docked pay until you're back up and running.

    May sound like crap, but there are potentially some real benefits to getting workstations off of IT's plate.

    --
    ----- Connection reset by beer
    1. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You, dear employee, get to bring in your own computer and connect up to our virtual workspace environment.

      No problem. Be aware, dear company, that as I am providing my own work tools I will be charging at contracting rates and that my machine will not be subject to searches by you.

    2. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by archmcd · · Score: 1

      I'm intrigued... which companies are doing this?

      --
      I'm not an expert, but I play one on slashdot.
    3. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by santax · · Score: 1

      Yes and when they all screw up, I'm sure I will have no trouble getting enough workers there to continue my business... And if not, I don't complain about being bankrupt and liable to a shitload of customers damages, no - I'll just take a free day from my workers who are perfectly happy to agree to such a contract... Fortune 500, here I come!

    4. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by Rivalz · · Score: 1

      So does the virus have a once a day down time, once a pay period, or once a lifetime for that one vacation day to kick in?
      I personally would opt for a virus on my computer once every Mon, Wed, Thur.

    5. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by bbernard · · Score: 1

      Here's a URL with a link to a December article about a few companies "dipping their toes in":
      http://www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/community/features/articles/blog/employee-owned-computer-programs-diving-into-murky-waters/?cs=38238

      I don't want to comment on companies that I have personal knowledge of, NDA's and all that. There are two that I currently know of personally that are in process. (Sorry, I have to leave it there)

      It is really just another evolutionary step from companies that have started going to thin-clients (Sun Ray, WYSE, etc.) just going the next step to a software only client.

      I will say that I haven't seen all the kinks worked out yet.

      --
      ----- Connection reset by beer
    6. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by bbernard · · Score: 1

      I wish you luck with that. The president is really already there: salespeople often use their own cars for travel, many of us use our own cell-phones and home Internet connections for work, etc. Perhaps the company provides some sort of stipend for you to buy your own computer, maintain it, and replace it every X years. Or maybe not.

      But you're right, the company won't be able to search it, won't be as interested in web filtering while you're at work, etc.

      --
      ----- Connection reset by beer
    7. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by jareds · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Assuming this is even legal (as you're not only requiring employees to bring their own tools, but to spend their time maintaining said tools for free), this works great until potential employees wise up and you have to pay higher base wages to compensate for the inevitable docked pay (or spare computers or parts to avoid it). Since it's obviously much cheaper on average to keep a handful of spare computers or spare parts for the whole company, for use while dealing with the manufacturer for warranty repair or replacement, etc., than to keep one spare computer for every employee, this probably saves money mostly if you dupe your employees into eating the loss.

    8. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are lots of jobs where you buy your own tools, uniform, car, etc. You get to deduct it on your income taxes, and probably get an allowance (e.g. two free uniforms per year, 50 cents per mile). I'm pretty sure it's perfectly legal to send an employee home and dock their pay if they show up without a uniform, although a good employer will have spares for such occasions. And how many employers will actually maintain (wash or mend) an employee's uniform? Probably only professional sports teams.

      My company expects me to use my own cell phone for work (and I certainly wouldn't want to carry a separate company-owned phone). That means it's my responsibility to carry it with me, keep it charged, and if it breaks I can't get it fixed on company time. On the other hand, they pay half my phone/data bill and will pay for a new phone every couple years.

      As long as the company is willing to pay a reasonable allowance (say, $500 every couple years) for the use of my computer, the only problem with the plan is that the average person isn't even capable of maintaining their own computer -- or not breaking it in the first place.

      dom

    9. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      at today's wages and employment-uncertainty, this would require higher pay to the employee who is required to have computing equipment to work, which could not be justified by the little money saved by not having workstations. further, if the computing equipment is the property of the employee, the employer could not have any say as to what is 'on' that equipment, no matter who it may offend. SO, its cheaper in the long run for the company to own and control the computing equipment that is required to complete the employer's work.

    10. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish you luck with that.

      I'm already a contractor, but thanks anyway.

      salespeople often use their own cars for travel

      and get paid by contract ie: commission rather than just an hourly rate. If they don't negotiate a rate that compensates them for the use of the car, well, they'll know better next time.

      many of us use our own cell-phones and home Internet connections for work, etc.

      Then make sure you back up your cell-phone contact list, it's valuable and yours. If you're using your own connection instead of the companies so you can have the convenience of telecommuting then that's your payoff. If you're using it so you can be available 24/7 I hope you're getting paid appropriately. If you're using your connection because the company doesn't have one available, you are providing business infrastructure (capital) and ought to insist on an appropriate profit level.

      This is the result of advances in tech: you can now be the capitalist. With your education and your thousands of dollars worth of hardware and software, you are now a productive entity regardless of your affiliation or lack thereof with a corporation. Why spend years improving your productivity with education and acquiring capital only to get paid like a factory worker? If people would realise it, they would find that corporations need our compliance a lot more than we need them. You have productive capacity in your home that not long ago would have required many servants or slaves to achieve. Don't sell yourself cheap.

      Between yourself and a few friends, you most likely have nearly all the equipment you would need to run your own business. What is a company providing for you that you can't provide for yourself? Certainly not security since they will downsize you or outsource your job at the drop of a hat. If you are providing your work environment, communications technology and transport then the company is providing sales, accounting and not much else. Include a salesman/accountant in that group of friends and you're good to go.

    11. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by Inda · · Score: 1

      Um, I used to pay for my own tools as a modelmaker. The UK government even gave me a tax free tooling allowance. It was my job to make sure I had the correct tools for the job and I was paid accordingly.

      Bring it on. I could make a small fortune on the side repairing people's lost icons.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    12. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, when I go see my mechanic today I'm going to tell him you think it's absurd he has to buy his own tools.

    13. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by bbernard · · Score: 1

      "Between yourself and a few friends, you most likely have nearly all the equipment you would need to run your own business. What is a company providing for you that you can't provide for yourself? Certainly not security since they will downsize you or outsource your job at the drop of a hat. If you are providing your work environment, communications technology and transport then the company is providing sales, accounting and not much else. Include a salesman/accountant in that group of friends and you're good to go."

      The company I work for started just that way less than 10 years ago. Many of my coworkers had their own companies and feel this one is a better choice. We have a good tight ship with professionals who are all focused on the same goal--we haven't gotten big enough for a life-sapping bureaucracy yet.

      There are a few things that myself and some of my friends don't have that make me just as happy to work for an employer right now:

      1. Business savvy--I am a techie geek. Getting a real business mind into the fold would be necessary, and to be honest I don't always get along with those sorts, so I don't count many as friends.
      2. Health care. Until I can afford something more than major medical on my own, I will always work for somebody else. There's just no two ways about it.
      3. Short-term pay security. I know that I will have a steady income from this employer until/unless some catastrophic event occurs (firing/bankruptcy/etc). I don't have the faith that I could match that on my own at this point.

      I'm not arguing that your are wrong, I'm merely stating why I don't feel I'm in a position to actually do that.

      --
      ----- Connection reset by beer
    14. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not arguing that your are wrong, I'm merely stating why I don't feel I'm in a position to actually do that.

      Well, I don't think I'm wrong but that doesn't mean that everybody is ready to take the leap right now. The truth is, I took several years going in between employment and contracting, I still have an active file with a recruitment company that I can fall back on for temporary work if I need it. While the bulk of my income came from contracting last year, I still made $12,000 doing temp work which is a handy top-up to most people's bank account. So you're no different to me except I've done it for awhile, I'm not an uber-entrepreneur either.

      The company I work for started just that way less than 10 years ago. Many of my coworkers had their own companies and feel this one is a better choice. We have a good tight ship with professionals who are all focused on the same goal--we haven't gotten big enough for a life-sapping bureaucracy yet.

      Sounds pretty good, I can see why you'd stay. When employed it is my preference to be able to know and work with the owner/s rather than a giant corp, it's a very different atmosphere. If it's possible, a short-cut to business for you would be that next time you are in line for a pay rise or promotion to negotiate a share instead. Current owners may not want that but they might really appreciate someone being willing to bet on themselves and the business too.

      As for business savvy and getting along with "those types" that's a big one. It largely comes down to sales and negotiation skills. Years ago I was in a tight spot and had to choose between going on welfare or taking a sales job. I felt the same way about sales that most people do and never want a job as salesman again, but I highly recommend gaining the skills: how to build rapport with people you don't naturally get along with, how to identify what other people want and value, how to identify the real objection (the objections people give you are a way to get rid of you, not an explanation of the actual problem) and how to align what you offer with their wants. These skills are applicable to many other situations than sales jobs, they give you an advantage in nearly any situation.

      As for financial security, health care, etc, I spent years working two jobs so I could save enough to have a buffer against late payments, periods of low work, etc. There is no way around the necessity of this, unless you can work and contract part time.

      Myself, I work with a small team of independent contractors. We all contribute different skills and subcontract to each other depending on who brings in the work. We get bigger jobs by working together but we can all do our own thing if necessary. It allows us to form a team to suit the job rather than having to find work that fits the team and means the burden of financing equipment doesn't all fall to just one person (and neither does the profit from equipment all go to one). It's not suitable to every industry but it works well for us. There's a lot of freedom and I generally make in about 2 days what I would have made in a week doing a job.

    15. Re:Make them maintain their own damn computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something we learned real quick was that higher up front costs with macs were quickly recovered since we weren't dealing ccnp with these type of problems on a regular basis.

  13. I thought everyone knew the answer to this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Have the pre-hire install Ubuntu. No prompt, no job. Ubuntu can do anything.

    1. Re:I thought everyone knew the answer to this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Insightful? Christ, I bet the mods here get paid in 'Rands.

    2. Re:I thought everyone knew the answer to this by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      Can it print money? If so tell us more.

    3. Re:I thought everyone knew the answer to this by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Some jokester will probably respond and say it can, if you "sudo apt-get install print-money"

    4. Re:I thought everyone knew the answer to this by stillnotelf · · Score: 1

      You're thinking of python! http://xkcd.com/353/ import print-money

  14. You ask a good question by grahamsaa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But from what I've seen there's no good answer. Management in small businesses (and in business in general) is usually not concerned with someone's computer security skills or credentials, unless they're hiring someone for an IT position. Even then, it's not uncommon for someone without basic skills to make the cut.

    As an IT manager (or, the only IT manager) at a smallish (25 seat) company, I've been confounded by the fact that management doesn't seem to care about basic IT literacy. They're much more concerned with how qualified someone is to be an accountant, an admin or a lawyer (and I'm not picking on any of these professions -- just using a few examples).

    Unfortunately most people who possess these skills (valuable non-IT-related skills) don't know much about computers -- and the older, more experienced (and thus more valuable) employees tend to know even less.

    I once tried to get a basic IT related questionnaire added to our interview process for all employees. Management wasn't interested because they feared that it might disqualify an otherwise valuable employee. I've long since come to terms with the fact that at most companies, IT skills are only important for IT-related positions. Sure, they may make an applicant slightly more attractive, but it really has no influence over the hiring process.

    But since you ask the question -- if it were a perfect world (at least, according to my definition), we wouldn't hire anyone for a desk job that couldn't type at least 40 wpm. We wouldn't hire anyone who couldn't explain the differences between a good and bad password. We wouldn't hire anyone anyone who thought thinks it's safe to give their password out to a stranger or to click on a link that they didn't trust.

    But that's not the world we live in. Unfortunately, if my company were to stick to those guidelines we would have to downsize dramatically. We'd definitely stop growing.

    The truth is that people who aren't involved in IT related work generally don't care about IT. And while I find it frustrating, I can't blame them. For most people, particularly older people, IT just doesn't make sense. Unless and until it does, good luck!

    --
    Facts have a liberal bias.
    1. Re:You ask a good question by ProdigyPuNk · · Score: 1

      As a college student who may/will end up in IT one day, I'm not even sure I really WANT everyone to be competent with computers. While it would obviously keep a lot of leaks/hacks/phishing/etc from happening, I might end up being the guy getting paid to clean up the mess (please though, only for the first year or two, I hope)...

      I consider computer illiterate people to be helping me secure my future!

    2. Re:You ask a good question by archmcd · · Score: 1

      We wouldn't hire anyone who couldn't explain the differences between a good and bad password.

      Add "We wouldn't hire anyone who knew what a good password was, but chose to jot it on a sticky note on their keyboard so they wouldn't forget it."

      I shouldn't say this, but that's what the most experienced people in my company do.

      --
      I'm not an expert, but I play one on slashdot.
    3. Re:You ask a good question by Rivalz · · Score: 1

      Very true but video tutorials and a knowledge base go a long way to helping ease various issues that arise from untrained staff.
      If management doesn't want to spend time and money seeing that it's staff is trained or knowledgeable in those issues then they should expect more issues.

      What I do is I provide basic and advanced training manuals in the break rooms for staff to read while they are eating or bored.
      It doesn't help much but it helps a little bit.

    4. Re:You ask a good question by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      For some use cases, there's nothing wrong with that. If the bad guys are sitting at your desk, the've got physical access...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    5. Re:You ask a good question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. If you want computer security compentent employee, add it to your job application requirements although you might have some trouble filling the roles, or they may ask for more money, as it has more requirements.
      The role of IT is to educate and protect users and networks from viruses, malware, and even themselves. If your IT company is not pro-actively securing your network then find one that can.

    6. Re:You ask a good question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This will be true as long as my generation, the baby boomers and maybe the next youngest are around. I know many people who completed their education and early work careers before one was expected to understand computers. Suddenly everyone has to use a computer but no training or testing was required. How many people think they are "computer literate" when the extent of their skill is checking email, sending email, deleting email, printing email...

      We have a huge training gap in our workforce. Business isn't willing to foot the cost and many workers don't understand the necessity of upgrading computer skills.

    7. Re:You ask a good question by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      The truth is that people who aren't involved in IT related work generally don't care about IT. And while I find it frustrating, I can't blame them

      You hit the nail on the head. People hire IT folks to make computer problems go away, and generally dont want to be bothered about such matters ever again. I have a few clients whose backup system needs service, and I cant convince them that its important enough to warrant a visit (never mind the warnings that if their server croaks, they will just go out of business without that backup).

    8. Re:You ask a good question by MrNemesis · · Score: 1

      ,blockquote>Unfortunately most people who possess these skills (valuable non-IT-related skills) don't know much about computers -- and the older, more experienced (and thus more valuable) employees tend to know even less.

      Whilst I've met a fair few older people (especially accountants) who are pretty good with computers, I've one observation that rings 85% true for me - whilst older people might be much less experienced or knowledgeable about computers, they're a crapton better at admitting they don't know anything. Most of the time if something is up with their computer I'll be called on almost immediately, rather than some of the younger cock o' the walks that think because they pirated a copy of photoshop and managed to run keygen.exe they're some sort of computer guru who try and fix it themselves, usually with disastrous results (and I work in the City of London, where practically everyone has an instant +10 Level increase in Cockiness and General I'm-Better-Than-You).

      I'm sure anyone here who's worked in a desktop support role will have, at one point had to explain something over the phone, or get a user to describe something to them over the phone. Given the choice between an older person and younger one who are both equally ignorant of the problem at hand, I'll take the older one every day.

      Anecdata I know, but if I can't have someone in a role who knows something about computers, then I'll take a person that lets me do the job over someone that doesn't.

      --
      Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
    9. Re:You ask a good question by Caetel · · Score: 1

      But that's not the world we live in. Unfortunately, if my company were to stick to those guidelines we would have to downsize dramatically. We'd definitely stop growing

      If more companies adopted similar guidelines, it would force people to become more 'IT literate'.

      Although that would be more likely to decrease the potential job pool for me, so carry on as you were.

    10. Re:You ask a good question by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      --and the older, more experienced (and thus more valuable) employees tend to know even less.--

      Here in our small company I have found the opposite to be the case. We don't have too many problems with employees compromising systems but I missed 3 questions on that test. I thought they were all phising schemes.

      I have noticed some that are extremely hard to detect lately. One in particular going around is a person wanting us to price them something in several different names. We price it and send it back and then they say to send it to us in another country. We only sell within the US. So I'm not sure how the scam works as we wouldn't send them anything without money but it does waste time. There are some schemes out there that could fool anyone.

      --if it were a perfect world (at least, according to my definition)--

      Redundant IMO. It's NOT and NEVER will be perfect so we all have to live with it.

      --we wouldn't hire anyone for a desk job that couldn't type at least 40 wpm.--

      We would and no I can't. This is really not a true measure of how fast someone can go let's say on a CAD workstation.

      --We wouldn't hire anyone who couldn't explain the differences between a good and bad password. We wouldn't hire anyone anyone who thought thinks it's safe to give their password out to a stranger or to click on a link that they didn't trust.--

      That does get explained and now days we don't find that many people that don't know this. Like I have said before there are some new schemes out there that can fool even an IT guy no matter how smart they may be.

  15. buy a Mac by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    Seriously - with real and useful UAC, it will prevent most of this crap.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  16. That's all well and good... by Like2Byte · · Score: 2, Funny

    but you can't fix stupid.

  17. Create a limited account by dougsk · · Score: 1

    .... uhm start using limited accounts, maybe? you know, just maybe? http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/windows/xp/all/proddocs/en-us/usercpl_overview.mspx still doesn't fix adobe reader flash nor java zero days, but goes a long damn ways.

  18. Step 1 by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hire *good* people.

    Step 2: work on developing their skills.

    You see, what you're asking is like "how do I handle all the fame and adulation after I become a rock star?" The hard part is finding good people. If you can find 'em, they're worth training because they're *trainable*.

    So if you've got somebody who can do a great job and adds to the team, but doesn't know what the hell phishing is, don't worry about that. You can teach a good hire what phishing is. You can't teach a bad hire who knows what phishing is to be a good employee.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:Step 1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. If you simply don't hire those too stupid or arrogant to learn, and train the others in this very basic, anyone-can-do-it computer stuff it will be well enough. Really, overall this is the analogy of "don't keep this cash register unlocked and don't put it near the front door". Not rocket science.

      You'll still need IT support to take care of the technical problems and technical side of securing things still, though.

    2. Re:Step 1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Step 2: work on developing their skills.

      That reminds me of the new employee orientation when I worked for a large company. At one point they were explaining the company philosophy on training courses. On the screen was a quote used by many managers:

      "If we train & certify our employees they will just leave."

      Then the second line fades in:

      "What if we don't train & certify our employees and they stay?"

  19. Simple Solution by solid_liq · · Score: 1

    The solution to this is simple:

    1. Make sure you have an Enterprise licensed AV installed. The per-client cost is low, and the updates will be centrally managed by the server. If your network is too small for this to be cost effective, then just have Norton AV (or your favorite respected AV) on every machine in the network.

    2. Don't give your employees local admin privs. This one change has, in my experience, made all the difference in the world for many small businesses.

    This is much cheaper than paying the labor for having an IT person come in and clean up all the messes.

  20. Re:that quiz is rubbish by Ron+Bennett · · Score: 2, Informative

    Got 10 out of 10, but doubt few people could, especially with the limited information shown.

    Some of those they consider "legitimate" are very borderline in my view, especially that UPS one.

    Also, the testing site makes a big deal about misspellings and formatting in some of the "phishing" emails. And yet the The Bank of Choice one, that's supposedly "legitimate", has an obvious spelling error in it too!

    Ron

  21. Phish them OFFLINE! by bronney · · Score: 2, Interesting

    To test if they're too noobie for the job, design a form on paper that phishes their info. Personal info, more private that your regular form at Burger King. If they fall for it, kindly show them the door. Hire the ones that alert you of the problem.

  22. Basic competency by tombeard · · Score: 1

    If they know how to navigate the file system, file manager or whatever, they know enough. Otherwise no.

    --
    The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
  23. KISS by JeffSh · · Score: 1

    Keep it simple, stupid, as they say. Remove local administrator and the person using the computer will find it impossible to fuck it up no matter how hard they try.

    1. Re:KISS by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Thats simply not true. Spambots require admin rights? Dont think so. And I think you'll find that on or two spambots on your network can have significant impact on your domain's email reputation unless you filter port 25... although of course there are viruses that hook into OWA and send mail through that.

      Viruses on your network are a problem whether or not they have admin rights.

  24. Good Business Sense? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Lets say I'm in the sales business. Hiring this 1 guy will make me $1,000,000 profit per year. Except he's a total moron with computers. Lets say he needs a full time IT person to make sure he does everything right. That person's wages might be $100,000 per year. That's still $900,000 profit per year.

    How about the incompetent barely managing to justify their own job people? Maybe these people need to be squeezed as the article suggests some remedial courses to be brought up to standards to reduce costs to the corp.

    But I disagree with both. I think we in IT should be implementing systems that eliminate the risks associated with phishing and malware. Principle of least privilege already accounts for the people being knowledge for things software cant fix.

  25. Step back and look at the big picture. by Proudrooster · · Score: 3, Funny

    Kind sir, computers are "fad". A mere inconsequential passing fancy. Computers are either used as tools of amusement (aka Windows, the formerly best $80 Solitaire game money could buy) and for destruction of the world (aka, hypertrading systems on Wall Street and cruise missile guidance systems).

    Why does a small business need computers? Think about how much more efficient you could be without all of those mumbo-jumbo computers and all the click-happy workers amusing themselves while back-doors and trojans compromise your network and data (on company time of course).

    Carbon paper, filing cabinets, and shredders. This is the path to an efficient small business. You may even want to question why your small business needs so many phone lines. Sorry I could not be more helpful, but just step back and ask yourself, "is all this technology really necessary?" I think you will agree, it is a fad that simply over-complicates everything.

    1. Re:Step back and look at the big picture. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A modest proposal, to be sure. But, good man, I hold that your stroke has been too shallow. *Dons monocle*

      Surely telephones, too, are a superfluous and malignant luxury; since when have service companies responded to requests in a more timely fashion than does the venerable postal service? Surely, the mild inconvenience of writing out memorandums longhand for delivery or of actually communicating in-person (or via a page) would greatly cut down on the frequently redundant and always disruptive requests workers now receive, allowing these gentlemen to focus their minds on the tasks given to them.

      This is to say nothing of the gross distraction, both potential and real, that is presented by the mobile telephone. Even an honest tradesman who does not outright waste his hours on frivolous amusements with such devices can be driven to distraction by the incessant arrival of nigh-incoherent, but always vividly-punctuated, messages. As is the case with their land-based brethren, I posit that those limited gains in efficiency that can be credited to the portable telephone can be offset by losses in actual productivity on the part of their bearers.

      Thus, I propose the elimination of telephone service, save a limited set of lines reserved for the emergency contact of police, ambulance, or firefighters. This is to entail both the removal of existing lines and the procurement of signal-blocking devices to be installed at appropriately overlapping intervals throughout all company holdings. The upfront removal and placement costs should be funded from the existing communications budget; after a short adjustment period, the remainder of these funds can be diverted to purchasing stock in our competitors. Good day. *pops monocle and runs*

  26. Applicable to higher-level jobs as well by drfreak · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Myself, I'm mostly a self-taught computer geek. Many of you are also or are at least aware of acquaintances or friends who get by being self-taught, I've always been a firm believer in competency tests vs. degrees.

    Work experience is another consideration, as I would test the competency of either a grad or a long-running self-taught previous employee somewhere else. The applicant's general knowledge may be good and well documented, but how are they able to specialize when the need arises?

    I was able to ge promoted upwards to the career I have now based on the merits of my passion to learn -on the job or not- as well as well as my ability to apply new ideas quickly. Not everyone is as lucky whether they have the skills or not. which is why I believe a lot of budding IT professionals and/or programmers would get in the door a lot easier with a competency test. On the flipside, maybe less losers would get in the door too.You never know, it could happen. :)

    1. Re:Applicable to higher-level jobs as well by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      I have to agree. I am in the same boat. Why, because the wasn't a class you could take or a school you could go to to learn what I do. It starts with the boss saying "can you do this", and you do it inventing how to do it the whole way because no one has done it before. Fast forward to today....

      Now everyone has learned and there is a school AND they may have passed you by. So it is always important to keep learning. If you have a test, make it fit the kind of work you are doing. I think everyone should be tested to find out early on how they might fir in or not.

  27. Not a test... by Vu1turEMaN · · Score: 1

    Think of the school system. You do not test someone prior to teaching them.

    Install an antivirus that locks down their computers: tracking changes in everything except for My Documents and their desktop. Registry changes should also be rare...they shouldn't be installing anything.

    Done.

    1. Re:Not a test... by drfreak · · Score: 1

      You do not test someone prior to teaching them.

      Actually, that is exactly what most schools do. How do you know what level of class to enroll someone in without knowing what they are already well-versed in?

    2. Re:Not a test... by Vu1turEMaN · · Score: 1

      1. Submitter mentions constant problems. From this we already know their level. They've taken their test IRL, and already failed.

      2. You could spend lots of time creating documentation for them to read and understand, but it wouldn't work and nobody would want to do it.

      3. You get a program that solves everything and is the overall cheapest solution you can get: An antivirus that locks most of the vulnerable areas down, while still letting them browse randomly.

    3. Re:Not a test... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is exactly one of the problems with our schools.
      If they did test first then they could:
      1) Avoid putting students through redundant courses/sections where they already know the material and can therefore save time and money.
      2) Tailor the course to the areas where the test indicated the most problems or knowledge gaps, therefore making the course more effective.
      3) Establish a baseline at the beginning of the course so that when they test at the end they'll know exactly how effective the instruction was for this particular set of students.

      But of course they don't like to because:
      1) if students aren't taking the course, it's hard to justify paying the teacher, and having students with abnormal schedules is administratively more challenging that stepping all students through the same courses.
      2) it's more work for the teacher than simply following the prescribed syllabus.
      3) We don't really want to judge the instructional effectiveness because then we may have to do something about it when we find short comings.

  28. From a military perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work in a military hospital where I'm required to complete many computer based training modules before I'm even allowed to begin to do my job. This means somewhere around 70 military tests along with several others including network security need to be completed within a short amount of time. This isn't even counting the classes and training for hospital based computing and procedures for patients. The results are people blowing through them as quickly as possible and new employees and staff passing the answers around for the tougher ones to get their orientates through the process as quickly as possible. No one will legitimately look at any required tests such as these as important as the person who made them required nor will they be motivated enough to care why they should even understand the reason for taking them. The only way to motivate people to do the right thing is through fear of doing the wrong things. IE all computer communications are monitored and you could potentially be punished for visiting the wrong websites and or accidentally infecting your computer with a virus, or giving a reward for doing things the right way IE a day off if your department goes incident free for a quarter.

    1. Re:From a military perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only way to motivate people to do the right thing is through fear of doing the wrong things

      ah yes the military mindset. the problem is that your glorious police state doesn't allow for the fact that people will screw up. That coupled with the fact that total surveillance causes paranoia and a host of other psychological issues virtually ensures that the information will leak out. there is such a thing as squeezing too tightly.

  29. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ensure staff do browsing via a virutal machine or sandbox.

  30. Nice idea, but... by peacefinder · · Score: 1

    The current windows malware threat is not fully addressable by training. Some exploits are hitting people who have done nothing wrong. By all means train people, just be aware that no single measure will fully solve that issue.

    --
    With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
  31. easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Sit them in front of a Windows box setup with only IE and Mozilla icons on the desktop.

    Ask them to lookup information on a competitor.

    If they pull up a command prompt and start shutting off useless Windows background services, they are your new IT person.
    If they launch Mozilla, hire them.
    If they launch IE, show them the door.
    If they pull out their cell-phone, put them in sales.

  32. Poorly word tests can knock out good IT works as w by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Poorly word tests can knock out good IT works as well.

    \Poorly word tests / trick questions can

  33. Do they do the same thing with vehicles? by zymurgy_cat · · Score: 1

    If they use/provide company vehicles, would they test potential employees to see if they know how to change brake pads or replace a timing belt?

    Relying on some test to see if people know not to open an email from "Hot Sex Machine" with a "cool app you must see now" is lazy IT administration. I know that small businesses often cannot afford an IT person, but to rely on some test is bad management. Are they going to retest people every year to make sure they're up on the latest scams or social engineering techniques? Will they pay people to take the time to educate themselves on this stuff?

    I'm sorry, but this would be like requiring employees to provide their own safety equipment, develop their own lock out/tag out procedures, and maintain their own confined space entry plans. It'd be like saying, "We don't have to implement safety guards because we test whether people know not to stick their fingers in moving machinery." Such things are the responsibility of management. If management provides a tool (a computer, a machine, a car) for an employee to use, it is the responsibility of management to maintain it and provide the proper training on it. Otherwise, it's just pushing the cost off to the employee.

    I understand that as a small business, this may be a challenge for them. But if they rely on some test, they're going to end up with a hodge-podge of protection with some minimal baseline. This is not good management.

    --
    -- Fugacity: Confusing chemists since 1908
    1. Re:Do they do the same thing with vehicles? by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      If they use/provide company vehicles, would they test potential employees to see if they know how to change brake pads or replace a timing belt?

      Of course not. Drivers are already tested and given a driving license if they are qualified to use the equipment. They wouldn't give out a company car to someone without a driving license. As there is no standardised test for IT competency they make their own.

      You have a point that the sysadmins should be preventing most of the problems but if you are hiring someone to use a computer on your system 9-5, mon-fri then you probably want them to know, for instance, the difference between Excel and a spreadsheet pasted into Powerpoint. Also the user is usually the weakest link in the security chain, or at least the hardest to secure. No matter how well you lock a system down, a user will need access to the data which they are working on. And if they have access to that data then they have the ability to fuck it up. If you try to lock the system so that the user can't do ANY damage then you may as well turn it off and get them to work on paper.

      When all's said and done it's a balance - the sysadmins needs to stop as many problems as they can - proxies to stop people downloading inappropriate files, email filters, users not running as admin etc - but if the company is hiring people to use their computers all day every day then they should be looking for people with the ability to use them. Or at least identifying the areas where they lack knowledge and teaching them.

      (this comment was only supposed to be a line or two...hope I didn't ramble too much!)

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
  34. Sometimes a screenshot is useful... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...when troubleshooting web applications. A copy/paste of the error message won't tell you:

    1. Which web browser is being used
    2. Which page the error happens on (being able to see the exact or most of the URL).
    3. The exact nature of layout bugs.

    I agree that pasting screenshots into Word is bad, I've even been sent reduced res screen shots (about 480px wide) where you couldn't see anything useful.

  35. ECDL by taylormc · · Score: 3, Informative

    The European Computer Driving License may be helpful here. See http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=nav.5829 for a syllabus.

    1. Re:ECDL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. This is an established knowledge base for computer users and includes security awareness. Don't know if this can be taken on-line and whether it is available outside of Europe but well worth a look through the syllabus for questions to cover if not.

    2. Re:ECDL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't appear to be that good of a test either. Questions are totally Windows focused, with answers that are only correct for Windows. Some of the questions have no possible correct answers - some are possible perhaps in folk knowledge, but technically incorrect. And beyond all of that, why do IT people always seem to fell it's important for people to know the definition of "phishing" or other attack vectors rather than putting the emphasis on recognizing when a problem exists and avoiding it? Knowing the definition of an event never prevented it. Being alert to dangerous activities does.

    3. Re:ECDL by taylormc · · Score: 1

      And what is the root of the OP's problems? Answer: Windows. I certainly wouldn't recommend the ECDL as a qualification to be used in job-hunting. However, the syllabus does appear to address basic desktop PC security issues, so could be valuable for in-service training.

  36. Current security is inadequate. by Zaphod-AVA · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Current security is inadequate. We need to switch to whitelisting instead of blacklisting.

  37. Stop Blaming Users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know the Microsoft/car analogy blows, but really, we all need to stop blaming end users. Dev's and IT folks need to stop accepting crap as "good enough".

    I don't want my car to be "good enough" most of the time. I want it to be safe. My software and OS should be the same.

    What a lame bunch of crap.

  38. Re:that quiz is rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Also, some of the questions are very US-centric.

    The Discover Card one caught me out because I thought 1800 numbers were freephone in the US (0800/08000 numbers are freephone in the UK) I did miss the From address on that one but that can easily be faked anyway.

    Also the second IRS one. I wouldn't know what a 'Letter of Deficiency' is or what the correct URL for the IRS is.

  39. Poor IT Babies by MacGyver2210 · · Score: 1

    This just sounds like an IT guy whining that someone's making him do his job. If they're not setting up/fixing/managing workstations, what is their job? I know there are some legit IT jobs that aren't workstation oriented, but it seems like the point of an IT department in any bigger company is mostly to make the computers which everyone else works on function correctly.

    I worked for a software division of a pretty highly-ranked fortune 500 company for about 3 years. In that time, 99% of what was on the IT guy's to-do list(which was publicly visible and available to add to on the intranet) was related to workstations. There was a daily backup to a data storage company(they actually came and swapped out the backup drives and took them away in a lockbox) and in 3 years probably 3 times they had to increase storage for the company-wide server shares. There may have been a handful of other things they did which didn't make it onto their list, but other than that it was ALL simple workstation stuff like "Add more RAM" or "Reformat to new OS".

    It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that IT people complain about the workstation users as much as they do. It's what they're paid to do. If they're not happy with the job, maybe find something else that suits you better.

    --
    If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
    1. Re:Poor IT Babies by lordandmaker · · Score: 1

      This is basically what I perceive my job (general IT Techy) to be - to keep the computers in a state where they're useful tools, so that everyone else can just get on with their job without having to do any of mine. Sort-of relevant to the OP, though, we have a hilarious policy here whereby our 'mac operators' (our studio is full of macs) must be able to build a mac themselves, and are then mostly left to their own devices. If they break it beyond repair, they have to find time to rebuild it. I don't know how it works, but it appears to not get too much in the way of getting work done, and for whatever reason the MCSE that heads up the IT department has worked out that macs are not part of our remit... The thing about complaining about the workstation user I understand fully, I see it as the same as when I was working in a shop and we routinely complained about the customers and how much easier it would be to get work done if they weren't involved.

  40. Seriously, that Spam and Phishing test sucks by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 1

    You can almost always circumvent Phishing schemes by going to the website to verify. It isn't a case of "LEGIT" or "PHISH". It is assume "ALWAYS PHISH" And many phishing attempts I've received have clues. Clues are normally a hyperlink that says "Login to Paypal", but when you hover over it, it says: www.someplaceelsethanpaypal.com.

    Its nice they were thinking of a test, but if someone answers PHISH for all 10 questions, hire them.

  41. Also test I-T for core biz competency by gig · · Score: 1

    The flip side is to test I-T hires to see if they have clue one about the company's core business. I can say for sure the I-T where I'm working right now have no idea what the company does or what would help people achieve the company's goals. They just know how to inform people that something is not working and it's Microsoft's fault, not their fault.

  42. More competency = less "maintenance" by CaptainNerdCave · · Score: 1

    Where I work (hotel), I'm the only tech-savvy employee. In the two years I've been employed here, one of the front-desk systems (running XP in administrator mode) has gone down for at least a day because of malware/virus problems 3+ times (once since the outsourced moron installed anti-virus software). More than that, some of the smallest problems result in calls to tech-support that is billed per call. By having novices using this equipment, the cost of operating goes up quickly.

    Hiring competent employees means less calls for tech-support, and fewer (zero?) days of down-time from malware/virus issues. Hiring mechanics that know how to drive a manual transmission is beneficial for repair shops, plumbers should know metric and English systems, insurance agents should know basic math (or how to use a calculator); why shouldn't everyone who handles a computer (read: MS products) know the basics?

  43. IT is tool of the business - not the business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    30 year old former admin now a project manager and systems analyst - I was once like you. I thought it was my job to ensure everyone was competent enough to solve the majority of their own client troubles and thought that they were so incredibly naive that they would destroy the entire company if they had a little bit of access I wasn't controlling. Then I learned that the world went and changed and that IT is now just an appliance, a tool, just like a pencil sharpener or a hole punch. The sooner you learn to make IT work for the business and not the business work for IT the happier you'll be and the better the company will be.

  44. not only non-IT! by cunnilingus · · Score: 0

    I would be happy if at least IT staff would have such computer competency test.

  45. How about skills for IT hires? by devleopard · · Score: 1

    - Dressing and grooming standards - you should look the part of your company ... you want self-expression, start your own company - until then, your paychecks are signed by the same guy as the accountants and marketing group

    - Learn to communicate - written and oral communications. Not just using the right words, but the ability to confidently speak your mind in an appropriate manner. I can't tell you how many programmers I've worked with who were heads and shoulders above me in coding, but who I could always show up in meetings.

    --
    The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
  46. Windows by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    Simply ask each potential employee what OS they use at home. If they respond that it is a Windows OS do not hire them. If they use IE at home take them out back and put them out of their stupidity.

  47. Try the ECDL Foundation by mykdavies · · Score: 1

    The ECDL foundation run a computer skills accreditation programme that's widely used in Europe and has an increasing international focus. This covers a range of areas of computer competency; I can't see internet safety mentioned, but if you get in touch with them, they may be able to help you.

    --
    The world has changed and we all have become metal men.
  48. European Computer Drivers Licence by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    Have the employees make the ECDL or have it as a prerequisite to applying for the job. The ECDL is vendor independent and standardizes the training of basic 101 computer operations skills. They should have some basic security training in there as well. Definitely worthwhile checking it out.
    My 2 cents.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
    1. Re:European Computer Drivers Licence by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      I considered making this suggestion (as I have burdens of cow-orkers, but little control over who the Boss sends to work with me). But I suspect that it'd be dismissed by the questioner, because it's foreign. It sounds like they're American (which is a 90%-safe default assumption on SlashDot anyway).

      Your English is very likely to be better than my German ; but is our combined Chinese good enough to order Special Fried Rice instead of Fetid Dingo's Kidneys?

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  49. What about incompetant IT staff? by Jahmbo · · Score: 1

    It can't be expected that everyone will understand the vectors for infection. Part of the burden the IT staff carries is that people will do things to open the network environment to malicious attacks. What worries me more is the fact that there are people in positions of responsibility who haven't a clue about security. The biggest blip on my radar screen is a local health care provider, the Director of the facility hired her boyfriend to be their I.T. guy. I witnessed this clown downloading cracked software and installing it on health center computers, he was all puffed up about his USB drive that had x number of gigabytes of utility software on it and he didn't have to pay anything! In hindsight I should have gone straight to the BIA or the CEO of the hospital, but I approached her off the record and she said she would deal with it (yeah, I am a naive trusting soul). How about an ethics test for IT staffers in general to weed these scumbags out of the profession?

  50. Good Question, as usual, answer is: 'it depends' by qwerty8ytrewq · · Score: 1

    It depends on what you are doing with your computers and what flavour they are. As someone who is really really really bored of training people older than me, paid 3 times more than me, how to config POP, Windows, OSX, the fax, their phone etc... I totally agree, anyone in a job that needs to use a computer should know how to..... use it. Have you considered sitting job applicants down at a workstation and doing 10 minutes of hands-on testing? eg..here is a laptop, can you use the search function to find (inside 2 mins) the documents placed somewhere titled: 'incompetent noob', 'useless bluffing greyback' and 'I saved it somewhere in here'....? Or if you really want to get tuff, how about pluggin in all the bits of computer together in 2 mins? I am sure you can make up some good fun tests.

    --
    Waiting for the other shoe to...
  51. Tricky Way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Possibly send potential applicants a request for information such as SS#, Full Name, DOB etc. If they provide it no-question, then you have to question their security sense?

  52. As usual, the IT admin staff need to take a part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The simplest way to massively reduce (but not completely eliminate) the risks of problems, all of which can be done by the admin staff when setting up the PCs.

    1) Make user accounts into limited user accounts.
    2) Configure Windows Update via group policy.
    3) Configure Anti virus via group policy.

    If the users can't get admin privileges then anything they run will be largely damage limited plus they won't be able to undo 2) and 3).

  53. Basic Computer Skills by jd142 · · Score: 1

    At least once a week one of us has this conversation:

    us: Right click on the desktop
    them: Left click?
    us: no, right click
    them: where?
    us: right click on the desktop. The background you see when you don't have anything open.
    them: Ok. Click twice?
    us: no, right click once
    them: Ok.
    us: now left click on Personalize
    them: with the left button?
    us: Yes
    them: just once?
    us: yes, single click

    Or the even better copy and paste

    us: highlight the text
    them: how?
    us: click and hold and move the mouse
    them: I clicked and moved but nothing happened
    us: Did you double click?
    them: Oh, just click once?
    us: yes, click once, hold, and move the mouse
    them; Ok, it's highlighted. Oh, now its not
    us: did you click again after you highlighted?
    them: yeah
    us: click, hold, move, release and nothing else
    them: ok
    us: now hit ctrl+c
    them: At the same time?
    us: yes
    them: where's ctrl?
    us: by the space bar
    them: at the same time?
    us: yes, ctrl+c at the same time
    them: ok
    us: now click where you want to paste it.
    them: Double click?
    us: no, just once.
    them: I double clicked and it highlighted a word.
    us: just click once
    them: ok
    us: now hit ctrl+v
    them: at the same time?
    us: yes, same time
    them: ok

    us: hits head against wall until the pain stops

    1. Re:Basic Computer Skills by bev_tech_rob · · Score: 1

      Those situations is where VNC is a Godsend.... ;)

      --
      You're messin' with my Zen Thing, man.....
    2. Re:Basic Computer Skills by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Almost every time I use Windows, I find myself trying to middle click paste. Linux spoils me, copy and pasting wise.

  54. WPM is rong concern: get Dragon Naturally Speaking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's hella-faster than typing, so productivity goes UP, and the worse the typing-skills, the moar it goeth uppeth.

    C :

    Aim into results, not the specific method!

  55. It's not as easy as just making up a test.... by Slugster · · Score: 1

    ...past US supreme court decisions have found that if there is any effective discrimination of testing procedures it is illegal, even if the test is demonstrated to be directly relevant to the position and the test is not intended to be discriminatory (Griggs vs Duke Power Company, 1971).

    This is the reason for credentials inflation--private companies are afraid of getting sued for generating their own skills testing, so they just ask for higher and higher degrees every few years for the same jobs, even though the actual duties of the jobs don't change.

    Jobs that used to ask for high-school diplomas twenty years ago are requiring bachelor's degrees today.

    And colleges (being morally above the barbs of such intellectual accusations) engage in race-normimg, to make certain that more and more people who should have failed are passed anyway.

    http://www.popecenter.org/news/article.html?id=1749

    Good luck!
    ~

  56. Ignorance is bliss by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 1

    "I've never had any of my computers, running Mac/Windows infected by anything that I know of, I don't use any sort of protection either..."

    Well there's you're problem right there. If you're running Windows and connecting it to the net, it is infected as a matter of course whether you choose to become aware of it or not. The only way to prevent it, is to not use Windows.

    So on behalf of all the Fortune 500 companies, for whom I do not represent, and on behalf of all the rest of us, whom I don't represent either, who feel the pinch from there elevated operational costs may I be the first to extend a heartfelt, sincere "FUCK YOU, VERY MUCH" to you and any horse you might have ridden in on.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  57. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > I've never had any of my computers, running Mac/Windows infected by anything that I know of

    The last person who said that to me had extremely bad halitosis, almost no teeth and venerial disease. What you don't know can kill you slowly.

  58. IT Failing NOT User Failing by No-Cool-Nickname · · Score: 0

    As an IT leader/decision maker in a corporate environment, I would consider this a personal failing and an IT department failing. We (IT) are the experts. We have the skills and knowledge. If someone does not have the skills or knowledge to use a corporate tool (PC, server, network, etc...) it is OUR responsibility to provide training.

    I have a "technology orientation class" periodically. 60 minutes of "do this, don't do that". It eliminates the "I didn't know" and "how do I..." problems.

    It is arrogant, ill-informed and misguided to demand that an end user know how to make your job easier.

  59. Here is one I wrote about 3 years ago by rcb1974 · · Score: 1

    Most of the questions I thought up. Questions may have multiple or no correct answers.
    Questions probably should have been ordered by difficulty (from least to most difficult), but I never got around to it.

    http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgc7vm46_1dn83dq4g

  60. Certiport IC3 certification could be useful by zipslack · · Score: 1

    As a secondary technical education instructor in the Mississippi school system, I understand that all new technical-related hires are required to get this certification. Also, all currently-employed tech instructors will be required to get this certification. I went ahead and got it just to be "ahead of the game". The process, for me, consisted of an online class/workshop, online practice exams through Certiport, and a final 3-section exam. The exam covered basic computer hardware and OS knowledge, MS Office usage, and internet and networking principles. Was it the most comprehensive test? No. Was it a complete novice test? Also, no. Surprisingly, it covered a lot of ground - both hardware and software. I do not know what would be involved for employers to acquire this certification for their employees, but I can say from experience that anybody that receives it could be considered "computer literate". Here's a wikipedia link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC3_(certification).

  61. under that system you must pay overtime salary peo by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    under that system you must pay overtime salary people as well and don't even thing about docking for bathroom time.

  62. Security 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As far as buisness owners are concerned my best advice is not training employees but the use of of a secure operating system. Forget using Word application or any Micrososoft system deployment. The use of Linux operating system platform will greatly enhance any possible security threats.

    1. Re:Security 101 by MLease · · Score: 1

      enhance

      I do not think that word means what you think it means....

      -Mike

      --
      I'm sorry; I don't know what I was thinking!
  63. Ask your local community college by calmond · · Score: 1

    I am a professor at a regional community college, and we have a course designed for exactly the skills you are asking about. We also have a division called Workforce and Community Education. This division's job is to provide credit or non-credit training to businesses and industry in our region. Almost every community college has a similar component. Ours would jump at the opportunity to provide a pre-employment test and/or training for a company like yours, and we (as any other equivalent school) already have the people and resources to do it. If you want to do it in house, you could probably just ask the computer science professor for a copy of their final in the equivalent course and modify it as needed, or hire them for a couple of days as a contractor to make it for you and have it fit your exact needs. I fully agree that such testing is vital. Before I took this job I worked at a local chemical plant with 3000 employees. Our helpdesk of 10 people spent almost half of their time providing support to the same 7 or 8 employees in the plant. HR would never do anything about it, but there was a huge hidden cost in supporting these people by keeping them on. Also, some regular training on stuff for your current employees will help too, and you'd be surprised at how little it might cost doing it the way I've outlined. Good luck.

  64. Suggestions by FrankHS · · Score: 1

    Every employee will have deficits. Not only do you have to worry about the one who allows malware to be downloaded. What about an employee who sells valuable trade secrets to competitors or gets the company involved in a lawsuit. You may hire an incompetent employee who screws up things. It seems unlikely that you will be able to hire your entire staff to be competent in computer security.

    Teaching employees computer security, beyond a very basic understanding, requires a large investment of time. Hiring computer savvy people means that they are likely to want more money for the added skills. It would be much easier and cheaper to have one competent IT person managing the computers and then let the other employees focus on what they are good at. I am assuming that your computer needs are small enough that you can't justify hiring a full time IT guy.

    It isn't clear how your computers are set up or how many there are. Is there a network or just a bunch of computers? How do you handle backups?

    Maybe there is a person in your company who knows enough to handle most of the simpler problems. He could handle things like installing programs, maintaining the antivirus software, doing backups and he would have the administrator password. The employee who gets an email attachment to install hot babes (malware) on his computer is likely to think twice if he has to call the IT guy to enter the administrator password. He could be pulled away from his regular job whenever some IT service was needed.

    You could also hire a part time IT person. There are a lot of skillful people who are between jobs and would be happy to get a few hours of work a week.

    This is a place where a non-certified or non-degreed person can really shine. There are lots of people who are really good with computers and would love to do something like that. Of course you have to be able to decide who is competent to do that job.

    Here are some thoughts.

    He should be trustworthy.
    He needs to know how to install software, maintain antivirus software and handle backups.
    He needs to keep a balance between productivity and security. Some guys get so carried away with security that it is difficult for others to get any work done.
    Avoid arrogant people. You don’t want the BOFH running your computers.
    Beware of the guy who knows everything – He is lying to you!
    Make it clear that you are to have a copy of all administrator passwords – he may leave suddenly.
    Try to find a person who wants to do this for a long time.
    Possibly your existing consultant could help with evaluating him.

  65. Increased labor costs by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

    The problem with what you arelooking for is that you will now be increasing the level of skills that you are requiring of your employees. That means that you will be increasing the cost of hiring them and probably the wage that you need to pay them. Does the cost of fixing the problems when your current level of employees mess up exceed the cost of hiring employees who won't make those mistakes? I'll be perfectly honest, if the office manager cannot learn not to repeat the mistakes that lead to the virus infection, they are incompetent as an office manager in other ways as well.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  66. Anti-virus and (shameless plug) AppGuard by OhHellWithIt · · Score: 1

    Since I lost the battle to raise my kid with a Linux computer, I bought an anti-virus product (Norton Internet-something) with the XP machine we ended up getting and also installed AppGuard. The Norton product allows me to block certain types of web sites and also catches most malware that may be encountered by MSIE, Firefox, and Thunderbird (I won that skirmish). AppGuard guards against zero-day attacks for stuff that isn't in the anti-virus signatures yet and is an excellent final ring of defense. I also have Windows Defender installed and have Windows auto-update turned on.

    I personally believe that employees should be professional enough not to go surfing porn sites and the stuff the web-blocking component blocks, but your parents have a right to run their business the way they choose. It is, however, unrealistic to expect non-IT employees to recognize every possible attack vector, particularly when even IT people with years of experience can be taken in, and it is crazy to run Windows computers in an office environment without an anti-virus.

    Full disclosure: I work for the maker of AppGuard, but I work on different products. My recommendation is based on my personal experience with it.

    --
    "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
  67. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You've got to be joking. The ECDL is a grand tour of Microsoft Office. Most people fudge their way through Microsoft Access and forget it as quickly as they learn it. Net result: no clue about structuring data. Even the name of this "qualification" is patronising. If anyone mentions an ECDL on their CV then it goes in the bin. Anyone who takes the time or effort to get such a Mickey Mouse qualification almost unredeemable.

  68. No different than the trades. by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    I worked on cars during college. I was required to buy and maintain my own tools. If I broke a tool working on a car, I was required to repair or replace the tool out of my own pocket.

    I went thousands of dollars into debt before even receiving my first paycheck. This is a standard practice in many trades.

    I've probably got over $20,000 in tools, that I still own, from that job - and that was a requirement to keep that job. No tools, no job.

    -ted

  69. Easy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At the interview inform the applicant that Google, as the provider of the Internet, has outlawed private surfing during work-hours, then ask if they understand.

    If they say yes, show them the door.

  70. No Free Lunch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Accommodate to the requirements of the new electronic age, or look for a more congenial and perhaps more lucrative occupation — raising earthworms, say, or keeping bees.

  71. It is unreasonable. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    CC: and BCC: is technical jargon.

    Email clients should simply ask you:

    Who are your recipients?

    Do you want to hide the names of some recipients in your message?

    Or an understandable variation of that theme. Then the CC: and BCC: headers (which is what they are) in the message can be handled under the hood...

  72. Nonsense. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In most permanent employment contracts signed by professional people there will be a clause requesting that you work the hours that are deemd necessary to complete your tasks. If what you are saying had any grain of truth, everybody would be working 9 to 5 and being paid over time when appropriate, but we all know this is not true.

    So if companies put these kind of demands on employees they can't seriously complain when the table is turned and employees do bits of personal stuff while they are at the office.

    Even if you are a freelancer, you will be judged not by how many hours you worked but by how succesful were the projects you were responsible for.

    Honestly, do you actuallly have hold gainful employment?

    1. Re:Nonsense. by KahabutDieDrake · · Score: 1

      I run a self sufficient company which provides me more than gainful employment. As recently as 5 years ago, I was working as a "professional" in the markets you probably work in.

      You say that everyone would work 9-5 if what I say is true. MOST PEOPLE DO. So I'm not sure what your point is. OH... are you trying to imply you are one of the 1% of independent contractors that make a living? Or simply that your boss is too blind to notice that some significant portion of your "work time" is being used personally? Do you really think he doesn't care? Do you really think that when it's review time, they don't talk about the fact that you could put out twice as much if you didn't spend half the day on your phone/facebook? That's cute, but you are naive.

      You may in fact have that rare relationship with your boss that as long as you get "your work" done, they don't care what else is going on. But you should know that is pretty damn rare, and most employers will look at that, and say, "well obviously he doesn't have enough work to do".

      Most of you in the IT biz seem to think that there isn't an endless line of work behind what you already did. There is. If you don't know that, or don't care, then you are cheating your employer. If you do know that and you aren't already moving to work on it, you are LAZY, and I would replace you with someone that took the initiative.

  73. And you are the kind of user.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .... whose computer should be locked down

    Lets see:

    "people like to listen to streaming music while they work"

    So? Get a radio, a music player. Why should the company provide bandwith for your music?

    "Maybe IM is a useful form of communication."

    Oh great. So you are conducting business using an unregulated, unencrypted, loggable means of communication.

    "download an editor "

    Great. You are prepared to risk the company's infrastructure by bringing unathorized software (no, you don't know what you are doing. All software should be tested in isolation before you can work with it).

    "Yours is an office I wouldn't work in, and maybe there is something to say for self-selection of the people that would."

    Ha,ha,ha. I would not hire you buddy. There is nothing worst than somebody cavalier with security and company's resources *and* an attitude to match...

  74. Malwarebytes by Quick+Reply · · Score: 1

    Just purchase a copy of Malwarebytes (which is not very expensive, less than $25USD for a lifetime license - http://www.malwarebytes.com/), as well as up-to-date anti-virus (http://www.microsoft.com/security_essentials/ - Microsoft Security Essentials which is free and is very good) and not have to worry about user competency. Malwarebytes is phenomenal in protecting PCs from Malware. I have serviced many PCs with the Full Version of Malwarebytes installed (which has real-time protection) and nothing has slipped past so far.

  75. Great idea - include some abuse as well by swordgeek · · Score: 1

    No, I'm not being facetious, or at least not very much.

    Every company I've worked for has an HR orientation of some sort for new hires. This not only includes an overview of benefits, etc., but also a lecture of some length on diversity, understanding, tolerance, and respect in the workplace. My current employer has a three-day seminar that is mandatory for every full-time employee.

    Basically, we are treated like social retards who will start smacking women (or men) on the asses and demanding coffee delivered, if we aren't trained in basic manners over and over again; but it is assumed that every janitor and desk clerk is sufficiently skilled in computer operations (besides those needed directly for their job), and this will never need to be examined or refreshed.

    Honestly, cut the HR training and how much grief or money have you incurred? Not a lot.
    Now replace it with basic computer/internet security and use training, and how much grief or money have you saved? A hell of a lot, I would guess!

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    1. Re:Great idea - include some abuse as well by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1

      Honestly, cut the HR training and how much grief or money have you incurred? Not a lot. Now replace it with basic computer/internet security and use training, and how much grief or money have you saved? A hell of a lot, I would guess!

      Until someone says something racist/ageist/sexist/etc. (or innocent) to someone (or someone overly sensitive) who sues the company for creating a hostile work environment. If they drop you all in a class for ex-Klansmen and reforming rapists, then they can always point to that and say "We tried!"

  76. You'll quickly run into trouble by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    I worked for a community college and IME not one in ten educators (just as an example) actually possesses the job skills called for in their job description, which includes familiarity with Microsoft Office as a line item. If you're trying to find good people, and you're simply adding on more requirements, you're only shrinking your pool of applications and disqualifying people who could do the job.

    There are basically two approaches which I can see which might work for you. One of them is to lock the systems down to the point where it is difficult to harm the machine. Consider switching away from Windows, which is often easier than you think. The other plan is to simply train your users. Train users in detection of malware and in best practices; you don't need to know all that much anyway.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  77. As a support person by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

    I have to disagree. If they send me the whole session, I can look at the URL, the status bar, the taskbar, and the context of the error. It is quite helpful sometimes.

    --
    How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
  78. Cisco??? by FearKratos · · Score: 1

    Perhaps Cisco could be make a test (if they haven't already) that tests users for basic IT proficiency. This way if you pass you would be certified and hard documentation of your skills could make employers feel better about not having Tech staff for their small business.

  79. Can sometime be bad. by DrYak · · Score: 1

    It's the strategy used in my previous university, using Rembo (now part of IBM's Tivoli) as the imaging software.

    It has lots of advantages (wiping machines clean), but also a big problem :
    In case of outbreaks of a worm which can automatically propagate without any user interaction, the worm will be able to constantly infect freshly wiped machines, until the master image is upgraded with latest security updates.
    We had a couple of such catastrophic outage at the uni, because the images where centrally managed (we were powerless to fix them) and it took a couple of days until the central reacted and issued newer fixed images.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  80. This is easy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Before they get on the payroll and thus the internet, offer them the oppourtunity to sign an agreement, stating that if they are responsible for compromising a system, that they can in their own time and at their own expense, OR they agree to paying for a security expert, to repair the system, on their behalf.

    And add a security tax to their wage, 10% of their weekly wage up to the full cost of a full worst case repair, refundable all or in part upon their moving on.

  81. hello every one by clark40 · · Score: 1

    I was able to ge promoted upwards to the career I have now based on the merits of my passion to learn -on the job or not- as well as well as my ability to apply new ideas quickly. Not everyone is as lucky whether they have the skills or not. which is why I believe a lot of budding IT professionals and/or programmers ccnp would get in the door a lot easier with a competency test. On the flipside, maybe less losers would get in the door too.You never know, it could happen. :)

  82. And by mahadiga · · Score: 1

    Hire people smarter than you.

    --
    I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
  83. Grumpy Old Man says... by Nutria · · Score: 1

    doing that several times a week because yet another infected ad on CNN or whatever hosed their profile

    Block CNN, Fox News, You Tube, etc, etc.

    Hell, block all sites except those needed by the employee for the competent functioning of their assigned tasks.

    For developers, that means allowing various technical sites, and for secretary and shipping clerks it's Expedia, UPS, etc.

    --
    "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1