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Cub Scouts To Offer Merit Pin For Video Gaming

Hugh Pickens writes "Fox News reports that the Boy Scouts of America — a group founded on the principles of building character and improving physical fitness — have introduced merit pins for academic achievement in video gaming, a move that has child health experts atwitter. 'It could be quite visionary and exciting or it could be a complete sellout,' says Dr. Vic Strasburger. 'I don't see anything wrong with that as long as they're not playing first-person shooter games, violent games, games with a lot of sexual or drug content. The question is, who's going to supervise the scouts?' Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts can earn their pins by spending an hour a day playing games, teaching others how to play better, and researching the best price for games they'd like to buy."

366 comments

  1. Next: pins for first post. by Alex+Belits · · Score: 5, Funny

    n/t

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    1. Re:Next: pins for first post. by troubbble · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      This seems fairly ONtopic for a first post...

    2. Re:Next: pins for first post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      -- Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

      Contrary to popular belief, there is no UID 437 or anyone named Alex Belits

      God

    3. Re:Next: pins for first post. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2, Funny

      The badge should show a boy in a scout uniform peeing a stream of snowflakes.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    4. Re:Next: pins for first post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Informative?
      A play on the Nietzsche/Thumper trope might be humourous if done better.
      -1 disinformative I think.

    5. Re:Next: pins for first post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or for downloading pr0n.

  2. Why the censure? by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

    I don't see anything wrong with that as long as they're not playing first-person shooter games, violent games, games with a lot of sexual or drug content.

    Stop the censure! I grew up with duke nukem and it had no bad consequences.

    And I'm all out of gum!

    1. Re:Why the censure? by fuzzix · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I don't see anything wrong with that as long as they're not playing first-person shooter games, violent games, games with a lot of sexual or drug content.

      Stop the censure! I grew up with duke nukem and it had no bad consequences.

      And I'm all out of gum!

      I want the badge to be a silhouette of Nico Bellic (or one of his counterparts from another GTA game) whacking someone by the river bank... or maybe a montage of three Nicos:

      - Battering a hooker
      - Doing a line
      - Riverside execution

      All in a day's work^Wplay.

    2. Re:Why the censure? by Pvt_Ryan · · Score: 1

      Each scout troop must select 12 players to play Battlefield 2.

      We are not training child soldiers... honest..

    3. Re:Why the censure? by Jurily · · Score: 1

      Of course, you only get the badge if you batter the hooker academically.

    4. Re:Why the censure? by mjwalshe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Highly ironic as the Scouts where set up to teach "scouting" a set of skills used in the military as a result of Baden Powel’s experiences in the Boer war. And presumably American scouts have badges related to shooting real guns :-)

    5. Re:Why the censure? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Well just as we had an "approved reading list" in school there ought to be an approved gaming list to earn this merit pin. I couldn't do a book report on "The Collected Anthology of Snoopy Comics" and neither should someone get a pin because they played Dead or Alive Bikini Volleyball nonstop. I'd limit the list to games that require reading skills, like RPGs.

      IMHO

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    6. Re:Why the censure? by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Personally, I say to that constraint, what about doom? It teaches nice, christian values (stop satan and demons!), better than that "Left Behind" game... Truely ironic. Of course, it doesn't teach hypochristian values, and that might be the problem.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    7. Re:Why the censure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regarding sig: Physics would probably be better.

    8. Re:Why the censure? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Make that reading skills or logical thinking skills. I suppose a couple of games of Civilization or other strategy games wouldn't hurt the kids either. Well, it might give them some weird ideas about history... Just had my Roman Empire getting absolutely laid to waste by the friggin' Zulu again, myself, but hey, at least the game teaches them logical thinking and staying focussed.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    9. Re:Why the censure? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      True.

      I learned a lot playing "Red Storm Rising" and "Pirates" on my old 8-bit computer. All about how the Warsaw Pact would overrun western europe, and the piracy of the colonial era. Great stuff! (Yes kids you really can have fun with only 0.001 gigahertz and 0.00006 gigabytes RAM.)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    10. Re:Why the censure? by acklenx · · Score: 1

      ...Yeah, if shotgun shooting and Rifle shooting are currently badges that you can earn, I'm not thinking they would have a problem with shooting games.

      What they should have a problem with is (as merit badges for Boy Scouts) is video games in general. This new badge will go straight to the top of the list of badges I DON'T want my son to "earn" as a Boy Scout (along side Sculpture, Theater, Cinematography, Computers).

      --
      Never let a mediocre career stand in the way of a good time
    11. Re:Why the censure? by fotbr · · Score: 1

      I thought I was the only one that used to play "Red Storm Rising". Still have the game (box and all!) but sadly no machine capable of reading the disks anymore. Which is a shame, because it really was a lot of fun.

    12. Re:Why the censure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From 1910 to 1911 the merit badge was called "Marksman". The name changed in 1911 to Marksmanship and was offered until 1966. From 1967 to 1987 the merit badge was called "Rifle and Shotgun Shooting". The merit badge has since been split into two different badges:

      Rifle Shooting

      Shotgun Shooting

      Now get off my damn lawn!!!

    13. Re:Why the censure? by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      ...Yeah, if shotgun shooting and Rifle shooting are currently badges that you can earn, I'm not thinking they would have a problem with shooting games.

      *SIGH*

      Firstly, the quote in the summary about banning FPSs is from someone completely unaffiliated with BSA.

      Secondly, the requirement in this pin tells the cub scout to play age appropriate games, as rated by the ESRB and determined by parents. Nothing prevents them from playing an age appropriate shooter, such as Deer Hunter, or Nerf N-Strike.

      Thirdly, the shooting-sports merit badges emphasise safety and responsibility. There is no relation to the vast majority of FPSs.

      Fourth, this is cub scouts, younger than boy scouts. They are only allowed to shoot BB guns at scouting events. As well, this is a cub scout pin, not a boy scout merit badge.

      What they should have a problem with is (as merit badges for Boy Scouts) is video games in general. This new badge will go straight to the top of the list of badges I DON'T want my son to "earn" as a Boy Scout (along side Sculpture, Theater, Cinematography, Computers).

      Why not? They still teach skills that are applicable outside the confines of the activity itself. I taught basket weaving at a summer camp, and the biggest benefit I think the scouts learned was patience. Without patience, your basket looks like crap.

      You would be doing your son a disservice if you prohibited him from completing a merit badge simply because it was not an outdoor activity. Perhaps a better method would be to encourage as many outdoorsmanship skills as possible, but what practical purpose would preventing your son from earning Computers or Pottery serve? Wouldn't he be more likely to utilize Computers after completion than Indian Lore?

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    14. Re:Why the censure? by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      My grandfather was in Baden Powell's first scout troop in Poole, Dorset. From what I can tell based on his stories, BP will be rolling in his grave over this. His idea was to get kids out of the house, getting fit and working together as a group since socialization/team building was as much a part of the experience as anything else. Sitting inside by yourself on a couch or in front of a computer for hours on end by yourself is completely anathema to the whole idea of Scouts (or was, anyway).

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    15. Re:Why the censure? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      It was set up to enforce patriotism in children.

      And yes we do. Sadly, Scouting in american has become little more then a vector of attack for religious organizations.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    16. Re:Why the censure? by nametaken · · Score: 1

      Yes. This article is about Cub Scouts, but Boy Scouts may earn Rifle, Shotgun and Archery merit badges.

      As an Eagle Scout and competitive marksman, I can tell you that marksmanship skills learned from each (especially rifle) translate directly to any military rifle. A scout who earns these badges knows the various basic components and mechanics of firearms and how to operate them safely. Given 10 seconds of orientation on the basic operation of nearly any given military rifle, a scout should be able to apply all his training from a smaller caliber bolt rifle with great effect. Also, many scouts are outdoorsmen outside and after scouting, during which many will expand their repertoire of firearm familiarity on their own.

      And of course they're all survivalists and medics, to some degree. So when the zombie apocalypse comes look for an Eagle Scout. He'll probably keep you alive longer than your average soldier.

    17. Re:Why the censure? by tangelogee · · Score: 0

      Regarding sig: Physics would probably be better.

      Agreed. At least when I took physics, most of my classes were interchangeable with the equivalent engineering courses.

    18. Re:Why the censure? by kramerd · · Score: 1

      This is for cub scouts. Ages are around 7-11ish. They aren't likely to have parents who both put them in scouting and allow them to play DOABV (and quite frankly, most adults wouldn't bother to play it either, especially those who play a lot of video games).

      There is already a reading belt loop, this one is to encourage interaction and utility with video games (specific amounts of play, teaching others what you have learned, etc).

    19. Re:Why the censure? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      We are showing our age here... On the topic of learning experiences while gaming, playing the Infocom classics probably improved my English (as a second language) grades more than anything else.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    20. Re:Why the censure? by insertwackynamehere · · Score: 1

      Well you have to remember, violent video games will mess up children, especially America's finest boys, the Scouts. Of course molestation won't.

    21. Re:Why the censure? by Calinous · · Score: 1

      This pin asks for "playing appropriate age-group games", playing based on a schedule cleared with the parent (not hours on end). It might not be what Baden Powell wanted, but it's not so totally bad either.

    22. Re:Why the censure? by thefez · · Score: 1

      I appreciate the idea of rewarding for game play, but video games? Considering the traditional view of BSA members as physically active and engaged, wouldn't soccer, football, baseball, basketball, and track merit badges be a better idea? As far as I can tell, there's just one all-inclusive "Sports" badge currently.

  3. A merit pin for hand eye coordination by klashn · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now that you've learned how to tie a knot. You have to learn how to virtualize your real life actions probably with the Sailing job on Puzzle Pirates

  4. What a shame by Khyber · · Score: 1

    Guess it is time I made my own version to compete, and show them what crap they've become.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    1. Re:What a shame by geekoid · · Score: 1

      There is nothing wrong with the merit badge. It is something the kids will be exposed to, and it's an opportunity to teach children safety in an online environment.
      It's also an excellent opportunity to teach kids when to tell they are getting to emotionally involved in a game and to walk away.

      Scouting has gone to crap in many ways, this is not one of them.

      It's far more practical then archery.

      If I had the money, I would create a competitor to scouts. Replace forcing acceptance of religious doctrine with skeptical thinking.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:What a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go ahead. Let's see you do it. You are talking about an organization with 100 years of experience, teaching millions of boys, and having some pretty serious resources behind it. As a scout leader, I see the difference it makes in the lives of boys. Sure, from the outside, you can sit and take potshots all you want about an article that provides no background or knowledge about what is really going on. Get inside, and understand how things really work, and have a whole different experience.

    3. Re:What a shame by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "You are talking about an organization with 100 years of experience"

      Of which I was a member. Not only do I know the whole thing, but I know of MULTIPLE ways to improve it.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    4. Re:What a shame by Calinous · · Score: 1

      The Middle Age Church was an organization with a millennia of experience, teaching millions of people, and having even more serious resources behind it.
            Even so, it did many things wrong (based on our understanding of right and wrong)

  5. Achievement Unlocked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Achievement Unlocked: Dib Dib Dib

  6. Let them have it by Boot10it · · Score: 1

    Exactly I played games all through my child hood, and Doom was my game of choice. I mean were else are kids these days going to learn how to destroy that armed invading alien force, or if they need a car in a hurry how to jack one by simply pulling some one out of it. Now if some people believe that kids grow up into what video games taught them then why am i not out there killing ever one in the street, No I have sense and I also had a lot of fun........ But I must say that I can see both sides of the argument, one being that it is the Scouts and they are based on out door actives or things that help others, but again it is one badge there not changing ever thing else so let them have it.

    1. Re:Let them have it by bashibazouk · · Score: 1

      I thought the lessen of GTA was petty crime is OK, but if you go too far you will get a serious beat down by the police that will end with you dead in the middle of a bunch of exploding cars...

  7. Best price by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Do you get extra credit for working out that piracy provides the best price?

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    1. Re:Best price by Anachragnome · · Score: 1

      How about double credit for playing Oblivion all the way to the end only using a bow?

      Can I apply that to my Archery badge?

      Or maybe Left 4 Dead will apply to my Rifle Shooting badge or maybe even my Shotgun Shooting badge if I stick to those weapons?

      Oh, right. No first person shooters...(sigh)

    2. Re:Best price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Am I allowed to use poisons and enchantments?
      Because sneak + enchanted bow + enchanted arrows + poison = one of the most deadly combos in Oblivion. Sneak bonus multiplies -combined- damage...

      (11 bow + 4 bow enchantment + 10 arrow + 4 arrow enchantment + (4 fire 4 cold 3 fire) poison) x 3 = 120 damage on first hit plus 33 damage every second for next 12 seconds...
      Very few enemies can survive it.
      Add silence poison against spellcasters, Paralyze to pack several arrows in sneak mode and you own the game.

    3. Re:Best price by Darth+Sdlavrot · · Score: 1

      Can I apply that to my Archery badge?

      Or maybe Left 4 Dead will apply to my Rifle Shooting badge or maybe even my Shotgun Shooting badge if I stick to those weapons?

      Archery, Rifle, and Shotgun are Boy Scout merit badges.

      The Video Gaming awards are for Cub Scouts

    4. Re:Best price by Anachragnome · · Score: 1

      "Archery, Rifle, and Shotgun are Boy Scout merit badges.

      The Video Gaming awards are for Cub Scouts"

      The point I was trying to make was one of mixed messages. I think it still stands.

    5. Re:Best price by f3rret · · Score: 1

      How about double credit for playing Oblivion all the way to the end only using a bow?

      Can I apply that to my Archery badge?

      I did this, it's surprisingly easy.

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    6. Re:Best price by Darth+Sdlavrot · · Score: 1

      | "Oh, right. No first person shooters...(sigh)"

      "Archery, Rifle, and Shotgun are Boy Scout merit badges.

      The Video Gaming awards are for Cub Scouts"

      The point I was trying to make was one of mixed messages. I think it still stands.

      Perhaps I read too much into your erroneous comment about FPSs not being allowed.

      Without that, what mixed message do you think there is?

      For the record, it's only the Faux News commentator who suggested that FPSs should not be allowed; but there is no such restriction.

    7. Re:Best price by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > Archery, Rifle, and Shotgun are Boy Scout merit badges.
      >
      > The Video Gaming awards are for Cub Scouts

      Nope. Cub Scouts have always shot bows and small rifles.

      Of course you and the original joker are just fixating on this particular addition and ignoring everything else.

      Personally, I think the Frisbee Golf one is funnier than this one.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    8. Re:Best price by Darth+Sdlavrot · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nope. Cub Scouts have always shot bows and small rifles.

      I've just gone through the whole thing with my son from Cub Scout to Eagle Scout, I'm an Eagle Scout myself, was Scout Master of his troop for three years, took Wood Badge, and went with the troop to summer camp, Double H and Philmont. Clearly I wouldn't know anything about the program.

      Cub Scouts do not shoot rifles or shotguns. Webelos get to shoot pump action BB guns.

      Boy Scouts get to shoot 22 rifles and shotguns, and older boys (14+) get to shoot black powder rifles. At Philmont they get to shoot 30-06 rifles in addition to shotgun and black powder.

    9. Re:Best price by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 1

      Maybe in your state ... my cub scout shot .22s his last two years in cub scouts.

      --
      Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
    10. Re:Best price by Darth+Sdlavrot · · Score: 1

      Maybe in your state ... my cub scout shot .22s his last two years in cub scouts.

      At a council-run camp? Which council?

      BSA's Age-appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ageguides.pdf) would suggest that your council is out of bounds. Then again, they're only guidelines.

      Our council follows the guildlines.

    11. Re:Best price by smyle · · Score: 1

      As yet another Scoutmaster, let me say that if they are doing things outside the "Guide to Safe Scouting" (pointed out in sibling post), you're not covered by the scouts' insurance policy. So if somebody gets hurt, BSA will deny everything, and the parent gets sue the person running the camp personally.

      --

      Sleep is just a poor substitute for caffeine, anyway. -Bob Lehmann

  8. This is like printing money by ImNotAtWork · · Score: 1
    1. Shakedown boys scouts for their video game pin. Mention something about getting the self defense belt loop so this doesn't happen again

    2. Put pin up on eBay

    3. Profit

    --
    open source sub sim. I might start coding again for this. http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/contribute/
    1. Re:This is like printing money by Thanshin · · Score: 4, Funny

      1. Shakedown boys scouts for their video game pin. Mention something about getting the self defense belt loop so this doesn't happen again
      2. Put pin up on eBay

      1. Get boy scout.
      2. Put boy scout on craiglist.

    2. Re:This is like printing money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      ++ would buy again

    3. Re:This is like printing money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Shakedown boys scouts for their video game pin. Mention something about getting the self defense belt loop so this doesn't happen again 2. Put pin up on eBay

      1. Get boy scout. 2. Put boy scout on craiglist.

      A++++ POST!! Would mod funny again!

  9. New version of the Grand Howl by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 1

    DYB DYB DYB W-e-e-e-l CAMP CAMP CAMP

  10. Somewhat off-topic :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have you heard the one about the boy who got kicked out of cub scouts?

    He got caught eating a Brownie.

  11. What game ? by tris203 · · Score: 1

    # Play a video game that will help you practice your math, spelling, or another skill that helps you in your schoolwork.

    Grand Theft Auto ?

    --
    http://snappeh.com/blog/ - My Blog, not that any of you care...
    1. Re:What game ? by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Now Billy, you just had sex with that hooker and it cost you $25. When you killed her, you got $250. Figure out how many people she's had sex with.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  12. Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by madwheel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So much for Boy Scouts sticking to what its roots were in the 1900's. What's next? Oh yeah... Sleeping badge. You eat 12 cookies, drink a glass of milk, then sleep for 14 hours a day for a full week! It's the ultimate badge that takes a lot of hard work.

    1. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by ndogg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How much lower can it go? They already discriminate (and still get funds from various governments).

      --
      // file: mice.h
      #include "frickin_lasers.h"
    2. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by jonwil · · Score: 1

      This isn't the Boy Scouts, its the Cub Scouts which is a totally different thing.

    3. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hey, it could be worse.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Discriminate?

      In the USA, there are entirely separate scouting movements for boys and girls. Girl Scouts is for girls. Boy Scouts for boys. Completely separate organizations, and very, very different programs. BSA does have a program for highschool aged kids called Venturing that is for both boys and girls.

      Part of the deal is that by being a Scout you have to acknowledge a duty to God. So if you are an atheist, Scouting is not for you. That one is comparatively easy. Duty to God really is a core scouting value - how you handle that is up to the Scout and his family. Hindu, Greek Orthodox Christian, Muslim, Baptist, Quaker, polytheistic, monotheistic etc - that is up the scout and his family.

      Boy Scouting (in the USA) does take the position that homosexuality is not consistent with Scouting standards. Granted, that one is more controversial. I believe that some scouting organizations outside the USA take a different view. Sorry, but I see it this way - scouting is a private organization. It should have the right to set standards for membership.

      There are good alternatives for folks who are offended by Scouting's standards - try Civil Air Patrol, Jr. ROTC, FFA, 4H, etc.

      Government funding? I don't think so. In the USA, Cub Scout Packs, Boy Scout Packs, Venture Crews, Sea Scout Ships and Varsity Scout teams are mostly sponsored by churches or by service organizations like Rotary, Kiwanis. In my hometown of Houston, I have not run into any Scout units sponsored by public schools. Scouting units do not get government funding. Each scouting unit provides its own funding.

      US military services have historically given Scouts access to military bases for events. Some local governments have given scouts free or low cost access to facilities. Mostly those things have ended or are coming to a swift end.

    5. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by drooling-dog · · Score: 4, Funny

      And still no badge for masturbation. We'd all have made Eagle around here...

    6. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 5, Informative

      More importantly, the cub scout belt loops and pins have always been about leisure activities. There's one for chess, why not one for video games? Besides, these kids are going to spend far more time playing video games than nearly any other subject, why not teach them to do it responsibly? As a secondary effect, their parents will learn about the ESRB ratings system, since one requirement is for the boys to teach their parents about it.

      It's not even like the cubs will gain ranks or advancement from video games. It's just recognition that they've learned something about it. Even if it were a BSA merit badge (which is used for advancement as a boy scout), would a video game merit badge be less useful that indian lore? What about coin collecting? How many scouts do you think earn basket weaving or pottery and go on to use their skills after summer camp is over? As long as they're learning age-appropriate (we're talking 10-year olds) and useful knowledge, I see nothing wrong with it.

      For reference, here are the requirements:

      Requirements for the Video Games Belt Loop
      Complete these three requirements:
      Explain why it is important to have a rating system for video games. Check your video games to be sure they are right for your age.
      With an adult, create a schedule for you to do things that includes your chores, homework, and video gaming. Do your best to follow this schedule.
      Learn to play a new video game that is approved by your parent, guardian, or teacher.

      Requirements for the Video Games Pin
      Earn the Video Games belt loop, and complete five of the following requirements:
      With your parents, create a plan to buy a video game that is right for your age group.
      Compare two game systems (for example, Microsoft Xbox, Sony PlayStation, Nintendo Wii, and so on). Explain some of the differences between the two. List good reasons to purchase or use a game system.
      Play a video game with family members in a family tournament.
      Teach an adult or a friend how to play a video game.
      List at least five tips that would help someone who was learning how to play your favorite video game.
      Play an appropriate video game with a friend for one hour.
      Play a video game that will help you practice your math, spelling, or another skill that helps you in your schoolwork.
      Choose a game you might like to purchase. Compare the price for this game at three different stores. Decide which store has the best deal. In your decision, be sure to consider things like the store return policy and manufacturer’s warranty.
      With an adult’s supervision, install a gaming system.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    7. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Jawn98685 · · Score: 0, Troll

      I knew that the Boy Scouts were in decline when they decided to formalize their policy of fear and ignorance when it came to homosexuality. This latest move is stunning in it's lameness, but not really surprising, given their increasingly desperate attempt to remain relevant. And that's too bad, really, because much of what Scouting has to offer is good and noble. Alas, it is being ruined by dipshits.

    8. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Informative

      Discriminate?

      Yes, they discriminate against people based upon religion and sexual orientation. I have no problem with a private organization doing either, but they should not be eligible for government funding or freebies like they have been getting.

      Government funding? I don't think so.

      Here is a list of a few dozen instances where they've lost government aid in various court cases. Mostly it was a case of being allowed to use public facilities free of charge. It includes the cities of Philadelphia and Berkley and the states of Illinois and Oregon in the US. There are still many city and state governments providing assistance to the BSA despite it being illegal favoritism. Sadly too many people in the US are in favor of discrimination against gays and non-christians so politicians are unwilling to do anything about it.

    9. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 3, Funny

      If they're going to do this, they really need to make the badge more realistic.

      Instead of a game controller on the badge, they somehow need to convey how playing video games is a complete waste of time. The badges aren't nearly big enough to show a 40 year old fat virgin on a recliner in his moms basement surrounded by twinkie wrappers and empty pizza boxes.

      Be Prepared - for what.....Aliens? Zombies?

      I fail to see how this will help them in later life. Unlike outdoor survival skills which can save your life, playing video games only increases your proficiency in playing video games.

      As a Boy Scout, I learned knots that I thought were stupid at the time - but I still use them to this day.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    10. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

      Excuse me, it's exactly the same thing.

      http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/ScoutingFacts.aspx

      Same organization, different age group.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    11. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by mc1138 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is Cub Scouts, not Boy Scouts, the distinction may be small, but Cub Scouts works with kids in 1st through 5th grade or so. A big big part of Cub Scouts is working with kids on being grounded and responsible. With video games becoming such a large part of our society, having something that helps kids approach them responsibly, which if you read the requirements it has more to do with understanding game ratings (also good for parents) and making sure that you don't play too much than anything else. I say good job to Scouting for keeping up with the times. Also, this isn't the first time badge to deal with this, Boy Scouts already have merit badges dealing with computer's and other more technical activities as well.

    12. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yeah, it's just as bad as the Girl Scouts policies fear and ignorance regarding men leading the troupe and chaperoning events.

    13. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This latest move is stunning in it's lameness, but not really surprising, given their increasingly desperate attempt to remain relevant.

      Really? Perhaps you are just ignorant of the requirements. It's teaching personal responsibility, time management, and how to spend money wisely, it just uses video games as a trick to interest the boys. Why? Because they're 11-years old, at the oldest!

      And how is disallowing homosexuals (or atheists) based on 'fear and ignorance'? Why not the simpler explanation of 'it doesn't fit with our moral beliefs'? Are you saying they should compromise on their morals, just to be politically correct?

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      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    14. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Indeed, and just to elaborate on that: even if they were an entirely private organisation, whilst they might have a legal right to discriminate, we still have the right to criticise a private organisation for bigoted views. And I think that trying to push such prejudiced views on children is especially low.

      To respond to the OP's "Hindu, Greek Orthodox Christian, Muslim, Baptist, Quaker, polytheistic, monotheistic" - one thing I found laughable was the way that they bend over backwards to pretend to be inclusive to all sorts of minority religions (despite the fact that, at least here in the UK, they're still clearly Christian, in terms of the worship they practice), yet atheism/agnosticism/etc is out.

      I wonder if they'd allow an FSM believer?

    15. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      The modern BSA has nothing to do with the old Boy Scouts from back in the day. The modern BSA is basically a front for the Mormons and their values/beliefs (I'm not joking here, or a nutball conspiracy theorist, it's true) and has been for some time now (since at least the 80's I believe). That's why they're so adamant about all the anti-gay and religious stuff (yet still happy to take government money if they can get it).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    16. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      Are you saying they should compromise on their morals, just to be politically correct?

      I'm saying that if their morals promote fear and ignorance, then they are bad morals, and inflicting them on kids is irresponsible and abusive.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    17. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by CheeseTroll · · Score: 1

      Mormons? Hardly.
      Texans? Maybe.

      That said, the character of any pack is determined far more by one's local sponsoring organization and leaders than by the official BSA leaders. Our scout pack is sponsored by a Catholic church's men's club, but they don't dictate how we run the group. Community service is valued far more than religious beliefs, and as long as any parent passes the criminal background check (std procedure for any interaction with kids in schools) and are interested, they're welcome to help out with the leadership. But then we're in Minnesota, not Utah.

      We joke about the BSA HQ being in Texas because they write handy activity guides but often schedule things like 'gather leaves for pressing' for the month of February. :-)

      --
      A post a day keeps productivity at bay.
    18. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      I'm saying that if their morals promote fear and ignorance, then they are bad morals, and inflicting them on kids is irresponsible and abusive.

      Where is the fear and ignorance, though? I just don't see it.

      Saying 'this is not appropriate' isn't some witch hunt.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    19. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Discrimination exists. There is a reason for it these days.

      Dont take my word for it take someone who has had to deal with it.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui6-Wc0PDc4

      Or in other words 'act like an ass be treated like one'.

      Also what is wrong with organizations using facilities for free? Did they not help pay for it with their taxes? Are you not being discriminatory yourself? Instead of asking 'hey why do they get it for free?' then bitching that they pay. Perhaps you should ask 'why does anyone pay?'.

      I think the government exists to help people you however seem to think the government exists to extort fees and taxes from people you dont like. I can see the difference between a group of kids getting together with their parents and a rock band playing at a public arena. Each one requires different services of the local governments. One just requires that they clean up when they are done. The other requires police and hospital services 'on the ready', roads blocked off, and sanitation services.

      They did something like that with a local park I used to go to when I grew up. They started charging 'fees' to use the shelters. Guess what? *NO* one uses the shelters anymore. How is that effective use of public lands? Were those fees to help clean up or police the area? No (as you still needed to do that yourself), they had bought some giant thing in a different part of the city and needed to pay for it because they had a budget shortfall. Then they wonder why no one uses the parks anymore. Oh because you charge to use them, and never mow the grass anymore, and the playground equipment is crap? With free I can tolerate it but your going to charge me for it? I will go elsewhere I can get better for my money.

    20. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Discrimination exists. There is a reason for it these days.

      Umm, okay. I'm not even going to address this.

      Also what is wrong with organizations using facilities for free?

      It is illegal favoritism. Other organizations are not allowed use of the same facilities for free.

      Did they not help pay for it with their taxes?

      No, the BSA is a not for profit that does not pay taxes. More importantly though, why should some taxpayers be forced to pay utility costs and upkeep fees for facilities that are incurred by an organization that bans their children from joining? If the BSA allowed anyone to join, then I would have a lot less of a problem letting them use government facilities, but when they exclude some citizens, that nixes it for me.

      Are you not being discriminatory yourself?

      No because I'm proposing equal access to all people based upon the criteria of nondiscrimination in the constitution. The government is forbidden from providing favoritism based upon certain criteria including religion. That extends to providing extra perks to private organizations that discriminate on that basis. You do remember the constitution don't you?

      I think the government exists to help people...

      Which it can do by providing free facilities to organizations that follow the guidelines necessary for it to do so legally. The government is not allowed to promote any religion and spending taxpayer dollars subsidizing an organization that does promote specific religions, certainly qualifies.

      I can see the difference between a group of kids getting together with their parents and a rock band playing at a public arena.

      What about a rock band that does not allow Christians to attend? Are you okay with that? What about a club using the public park for the day, but not letting white people in the park that day because whites cannot join said club?

      They did something like that with a local park I used to go to when I grew up.

      Sorry, your anecdote does not apply. The government charging fees for thing is one thing. How would you feel if that same park had started charging fees, but only to registered members of the republican party? That's what we're talking about, unequal treatment for groups based upon criteria specifically forbidden by federal law to be used as criteria for unequal treatment by the government. It's entirely the BSA's choice to discriminate based upon those criteria and that is what makes them ineligible for government benefits; the same as the KKK, Neo Nazis, and the Black Panthers.

    21. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Coraon · · Score: 1

      I was involved in scouting in Canada as a kid from about 8 till my mid to late teens when real life started to creep into my world. When I was in scouting we had a few openly atheist families as well as Muslim and Jewish kids, we also had a gay scout leader in the leadership team. My father ran the cub pack, and had the philosophy that so long as you did not push your agenda on others in the group then you could stay, but if you tried then you had to go. That included a christian parent that tried to push his agenda (him and his kid got booted and my father wrote an apology to the affected kid and his family). One year we held a "Christmas" party, my Dad told the Muslim parents they were celebrating the birth of one of the prophets before Mohammad, the Jewish parents they were celebrating the birth of a famous Jew (Lets not forget Jesus was Jewish) and the new age parents that they were going to celebrate the season and as always the natural world. That to me is Scouting, finding common ground, learning to have respect for the natural world and getting to do cool stuff that urban kinds wouldn't normally get to do. I'm deeply saddened by the turn scouting has taken. See scouting is mostly funded by the group that sponsors the individual scout troop. Currently about 75% of the groups are sponsored by Mormons out of the LDS (latter day saints) who tend to, how shall we say... have a dim view of gays and people who don't believe in god. It was my hope that when my wife and I have children we could enroll them in scouting but because of all the changes I don't think I can in good conscience. And that is a real shame.

      --
      -Ours is the wisdom of Solomon, the magic of Merlyn, the fall of Icaris.
    22. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So does the military, and scouts is just like junior ROTC.

      Why do homosexuals have the need to stick their nose into everything and be recognized? I never understood the claims that Boy Scouts are homophobic because they don't allow openly gay scout leaders. Sexuality isn't a topic they should be discussing with their troop, stuff like how to make a fire and what's edible in nature are what they should be learning about, not a narrow view of political correctness. Not to mention that scout leaders should be distinctly paternal. Being a homosexual is like being completely anti-paternal.

      I'll never understand the homosexual community's insistence on being publicly recognized. It's a fetish no different than people who are into bondage, feet, or some other bizarre turn-on. But with strait people we only share our weird fetishes with people we are very close to and would never consider making it public knowledge to anyone but our closest relations. You don't see furries complaining about being ostracized from society because they keep their strange perversions to themselves. All sorts of stuff turns people on, I have no problem with that, but homosexuals who insist that they're being persecuted are just looking for attention. They're desperately trying to instill meaning into their sexuality and it's completely delusional. Some things are best kept private, especially when children are involved.

    23. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      Maybe if you knew what atheist means, you wouldn't have this complaint. The A-prefix means not. Theism refers to the belief in a religious entity. So how do you include a non-religion in your list of religions? That's like calling Scientology scientific discipline.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    24. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by bws111 · · Score: 1

      Any boy that meets the age requirements can join scouting. There is no discrimination there. However, the scouting programs core values include faith. A boy that does not have faith does not meet the requirements of the program, so he will not advance (he can still be a member). Which brings up the question of why does a boy without faith join a faith-based program or care if he advances in one?

    25. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      And because it's a different age group, the bar for what is expected is far lower.

      In this case, the boy scouts are expected to manage their responsibilities in all areas of their life. In cub scouts, they are starting with learning how to manage their video game time so it doesn't interfere with other responsibilities.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    26. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by kevinNCSU · · Score: 1

      Christianity has nothing to do with it, they don't even care if it's an Abrahamic God, or ancient greek gods or whatever, you just have to theoretically believe in some sort of god to advance, though I never saw anyone kicked out for not doing so, even in the rural south.

    27. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      Why is it not appropriate? This is the question the kids will be asking. I don't think it would be easy to come up a concrete answer that doesn't lead back to fear and ignorance.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    28. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by kevinNCSU · · Score: 2, Funny

      Their morals promotes his fear and ignorance of the organization ;)

    29. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      Well, here's a difference. Chess is pure strategy mixed with mathematical harmony. It's a logic exercise that helps develop the mind's ability to critically assess a situation.

      There is only one video game that does this: chess. Starcraft comes close, but no cigar.

      "would a video game merit badge be less useful that indian lore?" - Yes. Indian lore raises cultural awareness, provides history lessons, and demonstrates the philosophical worldview of a primitive culture. Coin collecting teaches history and economics. Basket weaving and pottery are skills that few have these days and teaches one about manipulating physical properties.

      The problem with video games as a merit badge for Cub Scouts is that Cub Scouts is the type of place you send your children to get them off their ass and stop playing video games. It's like giving a merit badge for watching sitcoms. It just doesn't compare to things like camping, first aid, and community service.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    30. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Why is it not appropriate?

      Because an appropriate relationship (morally) is between a man and his wife. If he has sexual relations with someone other than his wife, whether it's another man, a child, or some other woman, it's inappropriate.

      One needs not fear something to disapprove of it on moral grounds. Nor does disapproval imply ignorance.

      I'm sure there are those who do base their disapproval on fear or ignorance, but that's not necessarily the case.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    31. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      Because an appropriate relationship (morally) is between a man and his wife. If he has sexual relations with someone other than his wife, whether it's another man, a child, or some other woman, it's inappropriate.

      That's not an answer, that's a clarification of your earlier statement.

      Why is it not appropriate?

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    32. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "A boy that does not have faith does not meet the requirements of the program, so he will not advance (he can still be a member)."

      Not in any practical way.

      "Which brings up the question of why does a boy without faith join a faith-based program or care if he advances in one?"

      Good question.
      Most children join at an age where they don't really understand faith and religion. Even if they go to church every week, they do it because the family does it.
      Boys seldom join the scout because they want to; which is not to say the don't want to. They just don't think about it. So it gets represented to them by there parents or during a school demonstration*. In those situations boys will tend to join due to perceive pressure. Sometimes intentional, the parents want the child to join. Sometimes it's not intentional. When a child perceive a parents desire, even one not explicitly stated, they will do what the parent wants.

      So the group applies pressure to the child to become a believer. A group the gets government money and services.
      They like to say they don't get money from the government, but that's not really true. They get deals on land, services and Boy Scouts get preferential treatment when joining the military, government college scholarships, and so on.

      The scouts have a lot of fun and interesting things for a boy and his parent. Sadly religion is infecting and rotting the scouts. My child was in the boy scouts for a while, but it started getting to be too much.

      When they where forced to call Holloween 'Harvest festival' we had enough.

      When I asked why the changed they saif 'Holloween' was a religious event. I asked if we where going to call Christmas winter festival they looked at me like I had said nonsense and then said "Of course we are going to call it Christmas!" I asked " Isn't Christmas a religious holiday?". they just looked at me, got visibly angry and walked off.

      Children care because they are put in a situation where they are told they are suppose to care..oh and you want to get into the mess hall first? best be at early morning service.

      *Scout claim not to do this, but in all practicality they do.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    33. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Informative

      Any boy that meets the age requirements can join scouting. There is no discrimination there.

      This is not quite true. Fact check from Wikipedia:

      The Boy Scouts of America's position is that atheists and agnostics cannot participate as Scouts (youth members) or Scouters (adult leaders). According to the Bylaws of the BSA, Declaration of Religious Principle:

      "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

      During the membership application process and as a requirement to obtain membership, youths and adults are required to subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to agree to abide by the Scout Oath and Law, which include the words, "do my duty to God" and "reverent". Youths are also required to repeat the Scout Oath and Law periodically after being accepted as Scouts. The BSA believes that atheists and agnostics are not appropriate role models of the Scout Oath and Law for boys, and thus will not accept such adults as leaders.[4]

    34. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      That's not an answer, that's a clarification of your earlier statement.

      Why is it not appropriate?

      For the same reason you don't have a problem with it: your moral code. How do you explain any other moral question without going down a long rabbit hole? There's a reason that morality is generally relegated to philosophy, where intrinsic proofs are hard to come by.

      I'm alright with you disagreeing with my moral code. I'm alright with you saying it's wrong (I think you're wrong as well). What I'm not alright with is you claiming that because my moral code is different, it must be based upon 'fear and ignorance'.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    35. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Merit badges are only for outdoor physical things that wil be sufull when the child grows up.like:
      Archery, Bugling, Basketry,Coin Collecting, pottery, paper making, racing boats in gutters, etc...

      Stuff adults use everyday~

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    36. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      The A-prefix means not. Theism refers to the belief in a religious entity. So how do you include a non-religion in your list of religions? That's like calling Scientology scientific discipline.

      Actually, he never refers to Atheism as a religion and it is entirely appropriate to include it in this conversation as it is about religious discrimination. The government is forbidden from promoting religion, and that includes promoting groups that discriminate against people with no religion.

    37. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by geekoid · · Score: 0, Troll

      That would be a great badge if it included proper hygiene and clean up.

      If could consists of things like:
      'How to clean up when a scout master is done with you", "Hey, I'm the scout master, so lets keep this between you and me" And an oldy but a goodie: "if you where such a horrible boy, you wouldn't make me do this to you."

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    38. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      It's not about being relevant, it's about being influenced by 'believers'. There dumb ass view on homosexuality is on reason why they are in decline. If they want'ed to be relevant, they would actually address that issue on it's merits.

      The video game badge is an attempt to stay relevant. I do agree with it. Part of scouts is knowing and understand with experience a child will have...unless it's counter to the organizers faith.

      I could run the BSA and keep it relevant. It's nt that hard when you remove mandated faith from the equation.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    39. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      " 'fear and ignorance'? Why not the simpler explanation of 'it doesn't fit with our moral beliefs'? "

      you repeated yourself there.

      I am saying that if they use public service free of charge, or at a reduced rate, get preferential treatment from public entities, and get first dibs at public scholarship money, then they should not be allowed to discriminate.

      And yes, the badge was created to get more boys involved. Just like every other badge that's been created.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    40. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by crossmr · · Score: 1

      teaching personal responsibility isn't exactly relevant in the US.

    41. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Fear and ignorance is woven right into the scouts.

      from Atheist have no morals, to homosexuals are pedophiles. It is implicitly and explicitly stated all the time.

      There 'volunteer' service often preached creationism. Ever listen to a grown man say the world is 6000 years and science can't tell us what's at the bottom of the ocean so science can't know cosmology?

      Yeah, I have. I have also been excluded from meeting because I had the gall to call him out on his ignorance.

      Yeah, after 3 years of that crap constantly getting worse we stopped going. It's a shame because if you remove there fear and ignorance, they could be a cool organization.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    42. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, a lot of people don't understand the merits of scouting pins and badges, and how it relates to advancing in rank.

      Best skill I retained from scouting was Pioneering - I've fixed the weld on a boat trailer with nothing but a piece of rope. Never took the pottery course.

      Wish I had retained my basket weaving skills, tho. Contrary to what you say, I've had many instances after summer camp (WTF - scout camps happen in any season) in my adult life where I could have benefited from that skill - and not just for making baskets.

    43. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      To me, the difference is that I can articulate my moral code as having a coherent philosophical spine which feels fundamentally right. If something makes people happy, and doesn't hurt anyone else, then it's okay. There are many things I am personally uncomfortable with, but which nevertheless pass this code, because I realize that it is not right to base judgments on my prejudices or my difficulty in immediately understanding others' interests.

      The best you've been willing to do is "it's wrong because it's wrong." In my book that's not really a moral code, it's just repeating arbitrary stuff that other people told you to believe. Once you start to actually examine the source of your judgment rather than following yourself around in circles, you'll find the fear and ignorance part staring you in the face.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    44. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you were a Boy Scout, then read the actual requirements and understand what skills are being taught. "Video games" is just a guise -- as a leisure activity -- to teach decision making/comparison, scheduling/planning, budgeting, saving, family togetherness, competition/sportsmanship, teaching/leadership, friendship, scholastic achievement, and others. Quite a few really good lessons in "video games".

    45. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Well, here's a difference. Chess is pure strategy mixed with mathematical harmony. It's a logic exercise that helps develop the mind's ability to critically assess a situation.

      There is only one video game that does this: chess. Starcraft comes close, but no cigar.

      Tetris doesn't? It seems very closed-minded to assume that chess is the only acceptable form of strategy. I wouldn't say it's even a better practice in strategy for elementary schoolers. It's likely that a cub scout would be better able to form complex strategies in games other than chess.

      Video games have more complex rules and variety, but many require just as much tactical thinking. And both are games, so what's the real difference? Why does one specific game get special treatment? Why chess and not Go or Othello?

      "would a video game merit badge be less useful that indian lore?" - Yes. Indian lore raises cultural awareness, provides history lessons, and demonstrates the philosophical worldview of a primitive culture. Coin collecting teaches history and economics. Basket weaving and pottery are skills that few have these days and teaches one about manipulating physical properties.

      And video games teach time management, coordination, and problem solving. So there's no problem here.

      And don't try the argument that it's not worth because it's fun. You think a 10-year old boy collects coins because of the historical lessons he learns, or because it's fun?

      The problem with video games as a merit badge for Cub Scouts is that Cub Scouts is the type of place you send your children to get them off their ass and stop playing video games. It's like giving a merit badge for watching sitcoms. It just doesn't compare to things like camping, first aid, and community service.

      And part of the merit badge is to teach the boys how to spend a responsible amount of time on their most common leisure activity, and to learn other lessons while doing so.

      I don't remember claiming video games were as important as camping, preparedness, and service. Rather, these pins (and later merit badges) are intended to create well-rounded experiences. I just don't see how teaching kids to be responsible and educated about their leisure time is a bad thing. It doesn't (and shouldn't) displace camping or sports. Hence why there are cub pins for bowling and marbles as well.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    46. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Alright, the short version:

      I base everything off of respect, for onesself and others. Something doesn't have to outwardly or obviously hurt others to be disrespectful, which is what may cause us to have different views on what causes immoral behavior. For example, recreation drug use is disrespectful (IMO), thus I find it immoral. I expect you disagree because it doesn't directly harm another person.

      As for sexuality, I see truly monogamous relationships as the only way to truly respect a spouse and one's own sexuality. I also see sexuality as intended for the complementary sexes. They're intended for each other, whether you believe it was designed or if it evolved that way. To do otherwise is to disrespect one's own body.

      I don't expect you to agree with me, but if your argument is never going to go beyond 'trust me, there's ignorance and fear there', then you might as well not bother. Give me evidence of the 'ignorance and fear'. Otherwise there can be no debate.

      --
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    47. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      As for sexuality, I see truly monogamous relationships as the only way to truly respect a spouse and one's own sexuality. I also see sexuality as intended for the complementary sexes. They're intended for each other, whether you believe it was designed or if it evolved that way. To do otherwise is to disrespect one's own body.

      Our senses and motor abilities are "intended" to allow us to survive in a hostile environment, feeding ourselves and fending off predators. Do you see it as "disrespectful" when someone plays a beautful piano aria, enjoys a film, kicks around a football, or just lies down in the grass on a warm spring day without a care in the world?

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    48. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Our senses and motor abilities are "intended" to allow us to survive in a hostile environment, feeding ourselves and fending off predators. Do you see it as "disrespectful" when someone plays a beautful piano aria, enjoys a film, kicks around a football, or just lies down in the grass on a warm spring day without a care in the world?

      Nope, because our mind and body are intended for those activities, including even sex. With sex, there is an emotional bond between the participants that doesn't exist otherwise, and ignoring it is the disrespectful part.

      --
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    49. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      To me this is just a post hoc rationalization. Our minds and bodies are made for playing piano and for watching films, but not for loving relationships with people of the same sex? Says who? How can you possibly make this argument with a straight face?

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    50. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The typical few million $s the feds give the BSA is more than worth the more than 700 million $s that Scouts give back to the community in volunteer work every year. I'm sorry that you find that their moral stance on a basic belief in a higher power and that Homosexuality shouldn't be supported in an organization that has cross cultural responsibility from first grade on objectionable, but that, IMHO is not enough for the feds to stop their support. BTW - Belief in a "higher" power, referred to as "God" in their promise and law is just that. Christian, Jew, Muslim and Buddhists all not only have members, but full chartered groups within the BSA.

    51. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Maybe if you knew what atheist means, you wouldn't have this complaint. The A-prefix means not. Theism refers to the belief in a religious entity. So how do you include a non-religion in your list of religions? That's like calling Scientology scientific discipline.

      To be religious is to have a non-empty set of deities in which you believe and which receive your prayers. To be an atheist is to have this set empty. Without an empty set, however, any set theory would be kind of lacking.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    52. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      The typical few million $s the feds give the BSA is more than worth the more than 700 million $s that Scouts give back to the community in volunteer work every year.

      If it were a contract with a for profit, I might agree with you. It is not though. It is the federal government endorsing an organization that promotes specific religions. That's unconstitutional.

      I'm sorry that you find that their moral stance on a basic belief in a higher power and that Homosexuality shouldn't be supported in an organization that has cross cultural responsibility from first grade on objectionable, but that, IMHO is not enough for the feds to stop their support.

      This isn't about my personal tastes, it's about upholding one of the foundational concepts of our democracy... that the government should stay out of religion, not promoting, including providing resources to any specific religion or group that promotes particular religions over others. The government should not be giving money to charitable groups that only allow muslims as members either, not to a cookery group that accepts anyone who isn't a Hindi.

      BTW - Belief in a "higher" power, referred to as "God" in their promise and law is just that. Christian, Jew, Muslim and Buddhists all not only have members, but full chartered groups within the BSA.

      But it is a religious prerequisite to membership, which excludes them from being able to receive aid of any form from the government. It's the law and an important law at that.

    53. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Prien715 · · Score: 1

      But Wikipedia isn't strictly accurate either. Buddhism is an accepted "religion" within scouting but is also nontheistic.

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    54. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Our minds and bodies are made for playing piano and for watching films, but not for loving relationships with people of the same sex?

      Sexual relationships, or eros love in the Greek sense. This doesn't apply to Philia, Storge, or Agape.

      Says who?

      Says the process of sexual reproduction. You know, the penis and vagina being intended (evolved) complements of each other.

      How can you possibly make this argument with a straight face?

      I'm not trying to force it upon others. I'm not saying states should ban civil unions between them, or that there should be anti-sodomy laws. I think it's immoral, not that it should be illegal.

      Thus why I am so confused that you would force your moral code into places where my moral code should take precedence. I don't want my morality to dictate our laws, why do you want your morality to dictate the operating procedures of my church and private organizations?

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    55. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by DurendalMac · · Score: 1

      Oh man, that could be the best Eagle project EVER!

    56. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      Says the process of sexual reproduction. You know, the penis and vagina being intended (evolved) complements of each other.

      You say the penis and vagina are evolved solely to work with each other, and therefore no other interaction involving them is "moral", and yet you find nothing unnatural about playing the piano?

      Homosexuality occurs frequently in nature, but I can assure you piano playing does not.

      Thus why I am so confused that you would force your moral code into places where my moral code should take precedence. I don't want my morality to dictate our laws, why do you want your morality to dictate the operating procedures of my church and private organizations?

      Because your church gets tax breaks from my government and your private organizations are operating in my public schools.

      If your church paid taxes and your boy scouts kept their propaganda out of the schools, then I would care a whole lot less. I am not interested in subsidizing hate groups or welcoming them into what should be a safe place for my childrens' education.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    57. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      You say the penis and vagina are evolved solely to work with each other, and therefore no other interaction involving them is "moral", and yet you find nothing unnatural about playing the piano?

      Short answer: yes. But you don't really care why, so I'll save my breath.

      Homosexuality occurs frequently in nature, but I can assure you piano playing does not.

      So infanticide and sexual cannibalism is ok? They are quite common in nature. Also, in many animals the males disappear after mating, leaving the female to raise the children on their own. I assume you are against child support from deadbeat dads?

      What animals do is a terrible guide for our actions.

      Because your church gets tax breaks from my government and your private organizations are operating in my public schools.

      If your church paid taxes and your boy scouts kept their propaganda out of the schools, then I would care a whole lot less. I am not interested in subsidizing hate groups or welcoming them into what should be a safe place for my childrens' education.

      The American Humanist Association is tax-exempt as well. They sell morality as well. The only difference I see is which one we think is right.

      Why shouldn't they be tax-exempt? They're not-for-profit, you want to make a rule against it just because you don't like it?

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    58. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      Short answer: yes. But you don't really care why, so I'll save my breath.

      I desperately care why, at least insofar as I am motivated to continue this conversation. It's what you've been avoiding for the past several exchanges. The suspense is killing me.

      So infanticide and sexual cannibalism is ok? They are quite common in nature. Also, in many animals the males disappear after mating, leaving the female to raise the children on their own. I assume you are against child support from deadbeat dads? What animals do is a terrible guide for our actions.

      Ok, if you're with me that far, then help me understand your penis argument again. It is immoral to put a penis anywhere else but a vagina because somehow that's the only natural way to do it (even though it's not). But other natural things may or may not be moral. Huh?

      The American Humanist Association is tax-exempt as well. They sell morality as well. The only difference I see is which one we think is right.

      I don't know what American Humanist Association is, but if they exclude people based on who they are, or espose the viewpoint that people living normal lives are "immoral" because of how they happened to be born, then I'm having none of it. That goes for NOW, NAACP, whatever.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    59. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Jawn98685 · · Score: 1

      No. I am saying that homosexuality has nothing to do with morality. The whole "homosexuality is wrong - it says so in the Bible" argument is what is behind all this. If the BSA wants to sack up and admit that they're the youth wing of the Christian Dominionist movement and adopt Biblical law as their "code", that's fine with me. Really. But they're not about to do that. They desperately want to believe that their still the ideal "All-American" youth organization when they are clearly not. Bigotry is not something the BSA will admit to, but it is very clearly a part of their "values", and what the values they hold are taught to the boys, and that is a problem in this case.

    60. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Jawn98685 · · Score: 1

      Where? By saying that an adult male is unfit to be a leader purely because of his sexual orientation? WTF has one got to do with the other? Unless, of course, you're stupid and afraid.

    61. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      I desperately care why, at least insofar as I am motivated to continue this conversation. It's what you've been avoiding for the past several exchanges. The suspense is killing me.

      Because sex, necessarily, requires a second person. I believe it is impossible to show respect to yourself, or to your partner, outside of a monogamous relationship. The piano has no such limitation, there is no disrespect.

      Ok, if you're with me that far, then help me understand your penis argument again. It is immoral to put a penis anywhere else but a vagina because somehow that's the only natural way to do it (even though it's not). But other natural things may or may not be moral. Huh?

      I never said that was the only proper way to use it, only that it was evidence that man and woman are intended for each other. Forgive me for being unclear. If we didn't have sexual reproduction, we wouldn't have two genders. So what's the practical purpose of homosexuality?

      I don't know what American Humanist Association is, but if they exclude people based on who they are, or espose the viewpoint that people living normal lives are "immoral" because of how they happened to be born, then I'm having none of it. That goes for NOW, NAACP, whatever.

      They are the largest group of secular-humanists in the US. They may not actively bar membership on the basis of being a theist, but you can bet your ass that if someone preached on God while a member they would get kicked the hell out. The same with the BSA: it is simply inconsistent with their views to have a member or leader actively espousing something different.

      So you would take away tax-exempt status from groups who funnel that money towards the good of others, just because you don't agree with them? Even for a moral relativist, that seems way out there.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    62. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Jawn98685 · · Score: 1

      As for sexuality, I see truly monogamous relationships as the only way to truly respect a spouse and one's own sexuality. I also see sexuality as intended for the complementary sexes. They're intended for each other, whether you believe it was designed or if it evolved that way. To do otherwise is to disrespect one's own body.

      "Intended"? By whom?
      Oh, right - God. That's your set of beliefs. You are welcome to them, of course, but you are not welcome to compel others to adopt them. When, oh when, will otherwise bright and reasonable people grasp this important point?

    63. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      "Intended"? By whom? Oh, right - God. That's your set of beliefs. You are welcome to them, of course, but you are not welcome to compel others to adopt them. When, oh when, will otherwise bright and reasonable people grasp this important point?

      Where do you get that from anything I've said? I claim it is immoral, not that it should be illegal. It is, in fact, others who are trying to compel my church and other private organizations to which I belong to adopt their set of morals.

      I don't want to force someone to 'not be gay'. I just want my church and the BSA to be allowed to follow our moral code as they see fit, without interference from those who do not share it.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    64. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe if you knew what atheist means, you wouldn't have this complaint. The A-prefix means not. Theism refers to the belief in a religious entity. So how do you include a non-religion in your list of religions? That's like calling Scientology scientific discipline.

      To be religious is to have a non-empty set of deities in which you believe and which receive your prayers. To be an atheist is to have this set empty. Without an empty set, however, any set theory would be kind of lacking.

      To be a whore is to have a non-empty set of customers who pay you for sex. Your mom (presumably) has this set empty. Therefore, your mother is a whore. Get it?

    65. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      By saying that an adult male is unfit to be a leader purely because of his sexual orientation? WTF has one got to do with the other?

      Same reason the head of a liberal PAC should also be a liberal. If a leader of your private organization does not agree with your point of view, or follow your code of conduct, they are removed. Seems reasonable to me, or do you want to force the NAACP to accept white supremecists, and for PETA to accept membership from Ted Nugent?

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    66. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      But Wikipedia isn't strictly accurate either. Buddhism [scouting.org] is an accepted "religion" within scouting but is also nontheistic.

      Well, the core of buddhism certainly is, but there are many variations some of which are quite theistic. In any case, requiring a buddhist to swear to a god, means pretending at least to accept a theistic belief. So it makes it no less of a problem.

    67. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      Because sex, necessarily, requires a second person. I believe it is impossible to show respect to yourself, or to your partner, outside of a monogamous relationship. The piano has no such limitation, there is no disrespect.
      I never said that was the only proper way to use it, only that it was evidence that man and woman are intended for each other. Forgive me for being unclear. If we didn't have sexual reproduction, we wouldn't have two genders. So what's the practical purpose of homosexuality?

      I think I have to give up. Your rationales are at odds with each other, with themselves, with the context of this discussion, and with common sense. These two paragraphs open up such a can of weird it's making my head hurt. What's the practical purpose of homosexuality? Well, what's the practical purpose of playing the piano or watching a film? Plenty of people get more out of their homosexual relations than they do out of Chopin. And anything that doesn't have an inherent sense of respect is fair game for any treatment? Who intended man and women for each other? What's the connection between respect and the technical requirements of the human reproductive process? Please don't answer, these are all rhetorical questions.

      They may not actively bar membership on the basis of being a theist, but you can bet your ass that if someone preached on God while a member they would get kicked the hell out. The same with the BSA: it is simply inconsistent with their views to have a member or leader actively espousing something different.

      You don't have to preach gayness from the mountainsides to get kicked out of BSA, you just have to be gay and live your life peacefully. That's about who you are, not what you do (unless you construe one's everyday private home life to be "what you do", like eating food while being black or breathing while being female or having a relationship while being gay).

      I also seriously doubt anyone would get kicked out of a secularist organization for preaching about God, unless it was run by 12-year-olds.

      So you would take away tax-exempt status from groups who funnel that money towards the good of others, just because you don't agree with them? Even for a moral relativist, that seems way out there.

      I would take tax-exempt status from a group that dosed their philanthropy with hate, yes. There are enough other groups that manage to do good for the sake of doing good alone, they deserve the tax advantages more.

      Anyway, we're getting nowhere, I have work to do, the last word is yours if you choose to take it.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    68. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by pnuema · · Score: 1
      Speaking as an ignostic assistant scoutmaster...I've never been asked to swear an oath of religious principle. I do say the scout oath once a week - I swear to do my duty to god. Nobody ever asked me what that was, and I dare anybody to try to define it for me. Reverent simply means an attitude of deep respect, which I have. Belief is not required.

      You have to remember that the BSA is a very loosely organized group. The national office can spout whatever BS they like; they still rely upon people like me to interpret and implement.

    69. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Jawn98685 · · Score: 1

      You are the one who invoked Divine "intent", pal. Defend your position or change it.

    70. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Anyway, we're getting nowhere, I have work to do, the last word is yours if you choose to take it.

      I never expected we would come to an agreement. More importantly, there will never be a clean inductive argument either way, that's just how these philosophical issues are.

      My only beef with what you said is that my belief is based on 'ignorance and fear'. If you still feel that way, there's no way I can convince you otherwise.

      I'm just disappointed that you still think I'm trying to force my morals on anyone, while you simultaneously claim that the BSA should follow your moral code.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    71. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      I absolutely think that it is wrong, but I know that from a social standpoint it's not reasonable to force it on you or anyone. Our nation's laws provide for a separation of church and state, and I respect that. But, morality and legality aren't linked. I don't see what you're getting at.

      All I'm saying is that if a group subscribes to this moral code, what right do you have telling them how they go about enforcing it?

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    72. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by jafac · · Score: 1

      Actually; as a national organization - it is PROHIBITED to discriminate.

      But as far as local, individual units go, particularly LDS units (I'll happily single those out) - they are given wide latitude to set their own policies, even if it violates national policies. National usually kind of gets wishy washy, looks the other way.

      In my own unit, I have fought (and lost against) anti-women bigotry for going on 5 years now. The anti-women bigots have finally grandfathered out of the local unit, and our policies are now changed. Hooray for progress. Nobody in our local unit ever said one thing about atheists or gays. If we have an atheist or gay boy in our unit, nobody knows, nobody cares. It's a private matter concerning that boy. If he shares it, I'm sure feathers will be ruffled, but there is nothing in policy that bans that boy, and I'm pretty sure nobody's going to get torqued off. If the boy's ever subject to teasing or bullying because of this - well, THAT behavior is expressly against local and national written policy, and we will put a stop to it.

      So just because there are SOME jerkwads out there who choose to run their individual units that way, doesn't mean the entire BSA organization is bigoted. Most people in scouting, that I know of, are fairly liberal on social issues (particularly nature and wildlife conservation) - then, very conservative on gun control. . .

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    73. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Speaking as an ignostic assistant scoutmaster.

      Umm do you perhaps mean agnostic? Gnostic?

      I've never been asked to swear an oath of religious principle. I do say the scout oath once a week - I swear to do my duty to god.

      And you don't see the implicit statement in such an oath that there exist a god? And not just a god, but a being referred to as "god" instead of a god, meaning all polytheists and atheists are asked to forswear their beliefs in making such a statement.

      Belief is not required.

      But statement implying belief. I'm not demonizing the BSA or members, I'm just saying as an organization promoting religion the government cannot be part of that either by providing aid or preferential treatment. If you want government aid, work to change the BSA's policies or splinter from the main organization.

      You have to remember that the BSA is a very loosely organized group. The national office can spout whatever BS they like; they still rely upon people like me to interpret and implement.

      Of course, but it doesn't matter if some members interpret things differently. If those subgroups don't split off and form their own organization, the government cannot support them because they are part of an organization that promotes some religions over others.

    74. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by pnuema · · Score: 1
      Umm do you perhaps mean agnostic? Gnostic?

      I spoke correctly the first time.

      And you don't see the implicit statement in such an oath that there exist a god? And not just a god, but a being referred to as "god" instead of a god, meaning all polytheists and atheists are asked to forswear their beliefs in making such a statement.

      I see an implicit assumption, but you know what happens when you assume. No one is asking anyone to forswear anything. Oaths are tricky. There is a reason our military takes an oath to defend the constitution, NOT one to obey the commander in chief.

      But statement implying belief. I'm not demonizing the BSA or members, I'm just saying as an organization promoting religion the government cannot be part of that either by providing aid or preferential treatment. If you want government aid, work to change the BSA's policies or splinter from the main organization.... Of course, but it doesn't matter if some members interpret things differently. If those subgroups don't split off and form their own organization, the government cannot support them because they are part of an organization that promotes some religions over others.

      The BSA is chartered by Congress. You can make all kinds of declarative statements, and we'll continue to completely ignore them. The fact is, the government gives all kinds of aid to all kinds of religious groups - or have you forgotten Bush and all his faith-based initiatives?

    75. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      "To be a whore is to have a non-empty set of customers who pay you for sex. Your mom (presumably) has this set empty. Therefore, your mother is a whore."

      X and (not X) is a contradiction.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    76. Re:Way to lower the credibility of Boy Scouts... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      I spoke correctly the first time.

      Well, it looks like a subset of agnosticism, but I don't care to play semantic games.

      And you don't see the implicit statement in such an oath that there exist a god? And not just a god, but a being referred to as "god" instead of a god, meaning all polytheists and atheists are asked to forswear their beliefs in making such a statement.

      I see an implicit assumption, but you know what happens when you assume.

      Please no empty rhetoric. It's an implicit statement, not an implicit assumption. There's a very real difference.

      No one is asking anyone to forswear anything.

      By asking people to swear to do their duty to a god, one may well be asking someone to violate their religious principals in implicitly acknowledging the existence of a god. That is certainly foreswearing themselves.

      The BSA is chartered by Congress.

      Yeah, so is Enron. Are you arguing that congress cannot have taken an unconstitutional action in this case and implying it has never taken any unconstitutional actions? The judicial branch might like a word.

      You can make all kinds of declarative statements, and we'll continue to completely ignore them.

      You mean to say you're defending actions that undermine fundamental parts of the constitution? How un-american and disgusting.

      The fact is, the government gives all kinds of aid to all kinds of religious groups - or have you forgotten Bush and all his faith-based initiatives?

      Which were equally unconstitutional and just as disgusting, some of which have been taken to court and ruled as such by the courts. Remember when Bush decided he could amend laws passed by congress simply by changing them after the fact with signing statements? Just because a president does something does not make it legal or right. If Obama writes a signing statement on the next bill that says all BSA members are to be shot on sight by the military does that means it is right and constitutional?

  13. In other words by JimboFBX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't see anything wrong with that as long as they're not playing first-person shooter games, violent games, games with a lot of sexual or drug content.

    So in other words, as long as they aren't fun games

    1. Re:In other words by thoughtspace · · Score: 1

      Unless the last 'or' is exclusive-or; in which case they are allowed: games with a lot of sexual AND drug content. Party on!

    2. Re:In other words by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It's the scouts. Duh. I mean, they give you a knife, but only after they told you about all the cool things you could do with it and then tell you that you can't do them. How cruel can an organisation be?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it would meant to be fun, why would the reward you for spending an hour playing?

    4. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I don't see anything wrong with that as long as they're not playing first-person shooter games, violent games, games with a lot of sexual or drug content.

      So in other words, as long as they aren't fun games

      You need to learn the difference between Fox's "commentary" and the Real World. Out in the Real World, nothing in the requirements for the award says they can't play FPSs.

      http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/CubScouts/Awards/Boys/sanda/video_games.aspx

    5. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you're saying the Boyscouts are going to be playing with their Wiis a lot?

    6. Re:In other words by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Little known fact, the Boy Scouts of American (BSA) today is pretty much controlled completely by the Mormons. That's not some tin-foil hat conspiracy nonsense, it's well-known in BSA circles. So you are surprised that they would adopt the conservative values of the LDS on videogames too?

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    7. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a sad day if you think that games can't be fun without being a FPS, violent, or involve sex and drugs. Mario must be a very boring game for you.

      Of course, I do find fun games with those qualities, but I find plenty without.

    8. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So in other words, as long as they aren't fun games

      Dude, Super Mario Galaxy doesn't qualify as any of those things (unless jumping comically on giant turtles' heads can be considered "violent") and it's a blast.

      Seriously.

    9. Re:In other words by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      The definition of “game” includes it being fun. Else it’s not a game. Even if others tell you it is.
      Else it is just simulated work. And bad work too. (Since good work is also fun.)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  14. Pins for IT achievements instead by worldsayshi · · Score: 1

    Playing games can hardly be seen as an achievement. It would be interesting to see pins for achievements in information tech though. Maybe for helping out setting up webservices for the local group or learning a programming language. But perhaps that would be to much to ask from a cub scout?

    1. Re:Pins for IT achievements instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about a Computers academic belt loop and pin? http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/CubScouts/Awards/Boys/sanda/computers.aspx

      I think expecting someone who is at most 11 years old to help set up webservices or learn a programming language is a little much.

    2. Re:Pins for IT achievements instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think expecting someone who is at most 11 years old to help set up webservices or learn a programming language is a little much.

      Cub Scouts are for six to ten year old boys. They switch to Boy Scouts by eleven, or usually a bit before.

      I was a Scout Master -- there are eleven year old boys that could do it -- they're pretty rare, but they're out there.

    3. Re:Pins for IT achievements instead by Ambiguous+Puzuma · · Score: 1

      About 20 years ago I remember there was a computer related merit badge. There were three steps to earn this badge; one of them was to turn a computer on and then off. The other two steps were only marginally more complex.

    4. Re:Pins for IT achievements instead by vbraga · · Score: 1

      I think expecting someone who is at most 11 years old to help set up webservices or learn a programming language is a little much.

      It's not. I learned Logo when I was six, about the same time I learned to read-and-write. By 11 I had also learned Pascal and Basic. And I'm not a genius. I believe the average children can learn this with the proper teaching practices.

      --
      English is not my first language. Corrections and suggestions are welcome.
    5. Re:Pins for IT achievements instead by Darth+Sdlavrot · · Score: 1

      About 20 years ago I remember there was a computer related merit badge. There were three steps to earn this badge; one of them was to turn a computer on and then off. The other two steps were only marginally more complex.

      There (still) is a Computer Merit Badge for Boy Scouts. It has been available for a lot longer than 20 years -- I earned it over 30 years ago, and there was considerably more to do than just turn a computer on. And yes, the requirements today are different than they were 30 years ago.

      Perhaps there was a different award for Cub Scouts. Naturally we would expect them to be easier than Boy Scout Merit Badge requirements.

    6. Re:Pins for IT achievements instead by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      You're thinking of the cub scout belt loop, which is designed for children younger than 12 (and as young as 7). Of course it's meant to be easy.

      There is an actual computers merit badge, and it is much more in-depth.

      Do ONE of the following:
      a. Visit a business or an industrial plant that uses computers. Observe what tasks the computers accomplish, and be prepared to discuss what you have learned.
      b. Using a software package of your choice for computer aided design (CAD), create an engineering-style drawing of a simple object. Include the top, bottom, and at least one side view and the dimensions.
      c. Use a general purpose programming language to write a simple program application of your choice, subject to approval by your counselor.
      d. Design a Web page for your troop, patrol, school, or place of worship. You need not post the page to a Web site. However, if you decide to do so, you will first need to get your parent's permission and your counselor's approval, as well as permission from the host site.

      In other words, Boy Scouts do exactly what the GP suggests, while cub scouts do not.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
  15. Oh yeah by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Oh yeah, because sitting on a chair and moving a mouse around so teaches one how to handle a real assault rifle, and for that matter so prepares one to sprint with 60 pounds of equipment.

    Not to mention other valuable lessons. While those dumb Russkies and Chinese go like sheep and run at the enemy with a gun, as ordered, our brave NATO troops will be where it matters: camping an airstrip so they can fly an airplane into a hill ;)

    I guess next thing you know they'll progress to other games, and the USA will have the first army who knows how to bunny-hop, grenade jump and spawn-camp. And woe to Osama once they learn where on the map are the BFG and quad damage ;)

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Oh yeah by Razalhague · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, because sitting on a chair and moving a mouse around so teaches one how to handle a real assault rifle

      Seriously, assault rifles have point-and-click interfaces. Guns are ridiculously easy to operate.

      and for that matter so prepares one to sprint with 60 pounds of equipment.

      That's taught by, you know, the non-video game part of being a cub scout.

    2. Re:Oh yeah by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Seriously, assault rifles have point-and-click interfaces. Guns are ridiculously easy to operate.

      Yet I'm sure shoulder mounted launchers from the US have a "this end to enemy" warning sticker.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Oh yeah by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Easy to operate, technically yes. Easy to operate _effectively_, no. Otherwise we could just forget about training the troops that much. There's more to using that gun than knowing where to "click" so it shoots stuff. Someone whose only training was using a mouse in a FPS, sorry, I don't think they'll be particularly good at it. Or not before getting just about as much training as someone who hasn't played FPS.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    4. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yet I'm sure shoulder mounted launchers from the US have a "this end to enemy" warning sticker.

      yeah, the M72 LAW even has some funny stick figure drawings detailing how to operate it.
      also, the claymore anti-personnel mine really has "FRONT TOWARD ENEMY" written all over the "business end".. see wikipedia

    5. Re:Oh yeah by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      Yet I'm sure shoulder mounted launchers from the US have a "this end to enemy" warning sticker.

      They do. With pictograms and text.

    6. Re:Oh yeah by Haymaker · · Score: 1

      Someone whose only training was using a mouse in a FPS, sorry, I don't think they'll be particularly good at it.

      At least they'll be better than the ones using console controllers.

    7. Re:Oh yeah by bronney · · Score: 1

      Not everyone can do jumping jacks you insensitive clod!

    8. Re:Oh yeah by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Seriously, assault rifles have point-and-click interfaces. Guns are ridiculously easy to operate." Spoken exactly like someone who has never handled a weapon in their life.

      Why don't you go down to the range one day and say that to someone who actually owns a gun. See how many shots you can land with any respectable accuracy.

      "Seriously, assault rifles have point-and-click interfaces. Guns are ridiculously easy to operate."
      Any dipshit can point and fire a rifle WITHOUT ANY VIDEOGAMES. A crazed man with a gun and videogames is no different from a crazed man with a gun.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    9. Re:Oh yeah by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Pic or isn't true.

      Please say it ain't so. I don't really expect much from the US military by now, but at least I'd expect them to NOT child-proof the guns. What happened to basic training?

      I remember my time in (our) military. Every single piece of equipment we got into our hands was explained THROUGHLY. To the point where you feel like pointing out that you're not an idiot. Usually then someone will prove that the n-th repetition of the same movements is really necessary.

      I can hardly believe the US troops don't go through the same amount of mind-boggling training.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    10. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Harris & Klebold say you are wrong.

    11. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      things are more complimecated than sticks and clubs theze days, gramps. now get orf of OUR lawn.

    12. Re:Oh yeah by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, as someone who has fired quite a few weapons while I can't say how bad the M16 would be, I pity the poor bastard that tries to fire a combat shotgun if the only experience is FPSs. Those bitches got some kick buddy!

      Not to mention if you let gamers with NO training loose on a battlefield I'm sure it would be like an article I read a few years back when a gamer mag took a couple of stoners from the mail room and put them on a tactical shooter (Sorry I can't find a link because I would LOVE to read it again) which went like this...

      OBJECTIVE..Rescue hostages from terrorists behind locked door...STRATEGY...Stoner A will blow door open with combat shotgun, Stoner B will throw in flash bang and follow Stoner A in an neutralize terrorists...WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED..Stoner A says "Are you ready" which causes Stoner B to drop a LIVE GRENADE instead of a flash bang, which of course drops at their feet. Stoner A panics and shoots Stoner B in the face, followed by both being blown to fuck. Terrorists stand behind the door and wonder what that noise was.

      Yeah, I don't really think the military would be well advised to let "XBox warriors" loose on the battlefield with nothing but their FPS "training" to back them up, not unless the goal is to try to make the enemy die laughing.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    13. Re:Oh yeah by warGod3 · · Score: 1

      The M72 Law was meant to be able to be used by anyone and then thrown away.

      Some of the wonderful things that were written on the LAW:
      "DANGER
      WHEN OPERATING THE LAW, KEEP IT POINTED DOWNRANGE. ENSURE YOUR WHOLE BODY IS CLEAR OF THE MUZZLE AND REAR OF THE LAUNCHER, AND ENSURE THE BACKBLAST AREA IS CLEAR."

      "WARNING
      KEEP YOUR WEAPON POINTED TOWARD THE TARGET."

      I think the warnings on the Claymore were meant to be easily read and help out especially during some kind of conflict...

      --
      "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
    14. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've also been told that claymore mines also are curved so that you can fit it against your chest to know which way to face them in the dark.

    15. Re:Oh yeah by blennidae · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As a civilian, I had the opportunity several years ago to use some weapons that were modified to use compressed air (simulate recoil, etc.) to shoot at targets on a movie screen. Re-enacting things like hostage situations in an office, traffic stops gone wrong, etc. Let me just say that using an M-16, SAW or Mossberg for any length of time (over 5 minutes) is *definitely* different than pointing and clicking with a mouse and that video games in NO WAY prepare anyone for the reality of using actual weapons. I don't remember the actual name of this one rifle a Marine pulled out of the storage closet and was handling it like a toothpick. He handed it off to me and I just about fell face first just from the weight of it. Nothing like having combat veterans laugh at a "dumb-ass civilian" to start your day out.

      --
      Rejoice in your insanity, there really is no other way
    16. Re:Oh yeah by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Informative

      Seriously, assault rifles have point-and-click interfaces. Guns are ridiculously easy to operate.

      That's actually quite funny. Watching someone load and fire an AR-15 for the first time is usually amusing. Will they figure out how to cock it? Will they open the ejection port? And then there's the whole thing about actually aiming and hitting a target. Back in my day, the BSA had a merit badge for rifle and shotgun marksmanship that was a wee bit more applicable.

      That's taught by, you know, the non-video game part of being a cub scout.

      I actually quit the boy scouts as a kid because we didn't do any scouting. Showing up to every meeting and going to clean parks and talk about the evils of drugs wasn't my thing. I actually liked to spend my time out in the woods, hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, etc. Our troop did very little of such things, however, and I quickly lost interest.

    17. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pic or isn't true.

      Please say it ain't so. I don't really expect much from the US military by now, but at least I'd expect them to NOT child-proof the guns. What happened to basic training?

      The recruits are all video game playing zombies, so it has to be 'splained to 'em

    18. Re:Oh yeah by Norwell+Bob · · Score: 1

      Your scaremongering ignorance is astounding. You should be ashamed of yourself.

      Assault rifles do NOT have "point-and-click interfaces". Have you ever held or fired one? To begin with, they're heavy. A child would not be able to hold one level, let alone steady. Pulling the bolt back to chamber a round requires more strength than most children have. The recoil would probably knock a smaller child down, and certainly scare the majority of children into dropping the weapon.

      Do you honestly think children learn how to "sprint with 60 pounds of equipment"? Utterly ridiculous. Cub Scouts today do jack shit physically... they do little crafts, play nicey-nice, maybe do the occasional camp out. Boy Scouts will do marches occasionally during camp outs, during which they are supposed to spot and recover and litter in the woods or on trails, but they're not being "trained" for anything more than cleaning up nature and leaving a site in better condition than they found it. Yes, they are encouraged to be patriotic (and what is wrong with that?), but never in the 12 years that I've been involved in it through my sons have they done anything that could be considered PT or indoctrination. Hell, they barely move at all anymore, even at the Boy Scout level. When my oldest son was Senior Patrol Leader, he got the idea to punish unruly younger scouts with pushups. That was quickly put an end to, because the fat little kids couldn't do any and it "hurt their feelings". Yes, even the Boy Scouts are crippled by silly, counterproductive, and ultimately harmful Political Correctness.

      There is a great deal of good that comes from scouting, but much like religion and capitalism, all the news ever reports is when something goes wrong, and a leader molests a kid or something. Believe me, that is the exception and not the rule, and with all the safeguards in place to prevent that from happening, a lot of people have to drop a lot of balls (no pun intended) before that takes place... not the least of whom is the parents.

      The assertion that the Boy Scouts, let alone the Cub Scouts is some sort of paramilitary organization is just absurd, ignorant, fantastic, and patently incorrect. It's about keeping boys out of trouble, involved in something, and teaching them responsibility, leadership, and chivalry for lack of a better term. I know it's all "cool" right now to scoff at those traits, but I'm proud of my sons and scouting has certainly helped them grow into better people.

      Oh, and since your post was rife with thinly-veiled disdain for our armed forces, remember this... whatever you think of the war that we are currently involved in, those armed forces are the same ones who are sworn to protect YOU and YOUR FAMILY if and when an enemy decides you're better off in the ground and our resources belong in their coffers. Even if you don't like them, they would protect you anyway.

    19. Re:Oh yeah by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Indeed.

      Anyhow, if children want to learn how to do it for real, there are plenty of youth organisations that do teach them how to shoot guns etc (at least in the UK - all the army cadet type groups). Once again, we're in a world where fictional shooting is bad, but teaching children to do the real thing is good...

    20. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Pic or isn't true.

      Please say it ain't so. I don't really expect much from the US military by now, but at least I'd expect them to NOT child-proof the guns. What happened to basic training?

      I remember my time in (our) military. Every single piece of equipment we got into our hands was explained THROUGHLY. To the point where you feel like pointing out that you're not an idiot. Usually then someone will prove that the n-th repetition of the same movements is really necessary.

      I can hardly believe the US troops don't go through the same amount of mind-boggling training.

      Here's your pics.

      http://img11.imageshack.us/g/law00.jpg/

      There may be occasions where weapons have to be used by personnel who have not been through basic training in some time or who may not have an active combat role and don't remember everything. Think last-ditch, SHHTF cases where every single able bodied person has to grab a weapon and fight.

      Also the weapons may be supplied to non-English speaking persons in the case of allied insurgents/irregular troops/partisans being trained by Special Forces.

    21. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Why don't you go down to the range one day and say that to someone who actually owns a gun. See how many shots you can land with any respectable accuracy.

      I've never owned a gun, but I did do that once. Did every shot hit the bullseye? Nope. Did every shot land within 3 inches of the centre of the target's chest? Yep. I'm sure that shooting accurately requires lots of practise. I'm also sure that shooting accurately enough to grievously injure someone requires no practise at all.

    22. Re:Oh yeah by thzinc · · Score: 1

      I remember my friend telling me about the AT-4 and its included instructions. Check out the label on the front of the launcher. Not quite "this end to enemy," but it's close.

    23. Re:Oh yeah by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      I've never owned a gun, but I did do that once. Did every shot hit the bullseye? Nope. Did every shot land within 3 inches of the centre of the target's chest? Yep.

      How close to the target were you on your little trip? Think it's a little closer than the most likely distance you would be firing on?

      I'm sure that shooting accurately requires lots of practise. I'm also sure that shooting accurately enough to grievously injure someone requires no practise at all.

      A shooting occurred at my old high school. The guy fired four shots with a .44 caliber handgun at close range, yet two years later she's fully recovered. She did have a bit of luck due to a metal plate in her shoulder, but just being close and having a gun doesn't make it effective.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    24. Re:Oh yeah by Pvt_Ryan · · Score: 1
      Hold on there a moment.. If we let our kids do things that are remotely strenuous they might get hurt then the parents could sue the troop..

      I shouldn't be old enough to say "Back in my day" but due to how much has changed I think I can so..

      Back in my day there was a game British Bull Dogs we used to play it in scouts all the time, it got banned in a lot of troops before ours due to girls being allowed to join (see below for rant on that). In our it got banned because scouting HQ told us to as it was "Too dangerous". Come on in the 12years (beavers to scouts) I was in the scouting movement, I think we had one guy split his head open, one or two sprained wrists and the odd bumped head.

      Rant Begins:
      Ok wtf are Girls allowed to join scouts for? Seriously, that's why there are Guides and brownies, etc.. Now
      • half the even semi rough games are banned because you might touch some girl's underdeveloped tit
      • troops have to buy extra camping equipment because they can't share tents increasing their costs
      • If there is no female leader present then noone can go camping or do any sort of planned activity in case she has "girl problems" or someone is accused of touching her or some shit like that.

      Don't get me wrong I used to hope we were camping on a guide site or the guides would be camping at the same time as us, but I never wanted girls to be allowed into scouts. It ruins the experience due to the limitations that have to be imposed all in the interests of "equal opportunities"

    25. Re:Oh yeah by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 4, Informative

      It always screws up my suspension of disbelief whenever I see someone fire a rocket launcher (like the M72) or recoilless rifle (like the Carl Gustav) from a helicopter or a window in a building. The backblast of the former will kill anyone within one or two hundred metres to the rear of the weapon, and up to 300 metres for the Carl G. Similar for similar weapons of similar size. They'd blow their own helicopter out of the sky if they did that. They'd incinerate themselves as the backblast blew back on them in the room if fired from a window. I remember standing up a hill about a half mile behind a Carl G being fired and feeling a stiff warm wind blowing my clothes tight to my body. The safety NCO's on ranges (who normally stand 10 or 20 feet to the side) need to rotate through every few firings to ensure they don't suffer damage just from watching due to the huge pressure wave generated when firing. I've seen guys get bleeding noses or their watch crystals pop off after watching half a dozen firings. At least with the Carl G., the gunner who stands directly under the weapon is in a 'quiet' zone and the most you feel is a solid thump on your chest (but it is still a good idea to open your throat so that there is an open pipe from the outside to your lungs so that you minimize the pressure differential if you make your lungs into a closed air sack by holding your breath). If you have a weapon that requires a loader (like the Carl G), he is just out of the quiet zone and gets a good wallop too. People watching movies, the news, or playing video games just don't have any idea of how powerful these things are (and they are the smaller of these weapons now-a-days). Understanding academically doesn't count. You have to experience it.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    26. Re:Oh yeah by Pvt_Ryan · · Score: 1

      Well to be fair noone trusts an XBOX player.. PC Gamers now that's where it's at..

      Oh and can you tell me where the right click for the M16 is?

    27. Re:Oh yeah by Bakkster · · Score: 2, Informative

      Back in my day, the BSA had a merit badge for rifle and shotgun marksmanship that was a wee bit more applicable.

      Still do. Archery, too.

      I actually quit the boy scouts as a kid because we didn't do any scouting. Showing up to every meeting and going to clean parks and talk about the evils of drugs wasn't my thing. I actually liked to spend my time out in the woods, hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, etc. Our troop did very little of such things, however, and I quickly lost interest.

      Sounds like you had a lousy troop. It's unfortunate you weren't able to find a better one. That said, I think the public service aspect is equally important, but it shouldn't overshadow camping and outdoorsmanship.

      There are definitely too many troops set up as 'Eagle factories', where they just rush to get the minimum requirements for Eagle done as quickly as possible. Quite a shame.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    28. Re:Oh yeah by tophermeyer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Plus, combat is stressful. IANAS (Soldier) but I can say that under extremely stressful conditions people that have not had extreme training to handle those situations tend to lose a great deal of their higher cognitive and memory functions. If you are scrambling to point one of those things at an armored vehicle that is trying to kill you, taking the time to read and understand instructions or to remember a 3 day training you received years ago will be difficult. Having simple little images that show you how to use the thing are majorly helpful. At the very least, they don't hurt anything.

    29. Re:Oh yeah by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      Someone whose only training was using a mouse in a FPS, sorry, I don't think they'll be particularly good at it.

      At least they'll be better than the ones using console controllers.

      F that. Mouse Keyboard might be accurate, but in no way does it compare to the realities of combat like BxR'ing.

    30. Re:Oh yeah by geekoid · · Score: 1

      " Guns are ridiculously easy to operate."
      not in any effective manner. Trained police officer miss more then they hit, and they spend time practicing with an actual gun.

      Go do some target shooting. It's not that expensive and it will give you a grasp of the realities in firing as gun.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    31. Re:Oh yeah by Admiral_Grinder · · Score: 1

      Check out some of the tents at the Army surplus store. They have stick figures showing you how to set them up. I have even seen instructions for a tech manual improvement form done up as a comic. Complete with Electronic Soldier

    32. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, assault rifles have point-and-click interfaces. Guns are ridiculously easy to operate.

      Speaking as someone who grew up playing FPSes, and who sighted in his new AR-15 on Tuesday (and broke the 2000 rounds fired milestone on his Glock 19)--you're mostly wrong.

      Sure, guns are not complicated to understand, but they /ARE/ challenging to handle effectively and competently without proper training and practice.

      And the FPSes I played as a child in NO WAY prepared me for the challenges of adjusting sights, adapting to recoil, mastering the surprise break, effectively reloading, and controlling my breathing, all of which are vital if you want the bullet to actually reach the target at which you think you are aiming.

      If you'd like more information, and you live near a major city, call around to your local gun shops that have indoor ranges. There is probably one that rents pistols and will give you a five minute walkthrough to make sure you don't hurt yourself. You can go properly inform your opinion in exchange for a twenty dollar bill and an hour of your time, and come out a better person for it.

    33. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it's odd. Back when I was playing Unreal Tournament 2004 competitively, I had a chance to go down to the local range. I performed relatively unimpressively on the target range. HOWEVER, I shot 21/25 on my first run at skeet. That jumped up to 24 and 23 on the next runs. A couple sessions later, I was getting 25's fairly regularly at middling distances. Incidentally, that first run was the first time I'd ever fired a gun -- I hadn't handled so much as a BB gun or a paint pistol before.

      I'm specifically claiming to not be a special case; I'm still only just competent with a rifle. However, I'm forced to conclude that the MANY hours I'd put into a fast-paced arena shooter translated into improved real-life target acquisition skills -- sense, point, shoot. Don't hesitate, don't tense up on the trigger (mouse button), and simply put the spread where you want it. The real skills involved in correcting for wind and gravity and haze/glare and an imperfect gun, yeah, those I'm still learning. If I'd played a game for at least a thousand hours with those factors worked in (UT2004's guns primarily fired in precisely straight lines), I bet I'd be a better marksman, too.

    34. Re:Oh yeah by brainboyz · · Score: 1

      And doing so when the target shoots back, you're amped on adrenaline, and from a less-than-stable shooting position is several orders of magnitude more difficult. Well trained shooters increase their "hit box" 200-300% in strictly adrenaline situations. Untrained individuals tend to stop looking at the sites and do much worse by far. So, while a professional soldier is going to keep some of their shots on a torso during a situation, without a shadow of a doubt I am sure you'd hit absolutely bunk, except by pure luck.

    35. Re:Oh yeah by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      well if your standing next to some one yes but as shooting the average hand gun from say 40 foot from what I undersand is not as easy as hollywood would lead you to belive.

    36. Re:Oh yeah by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Don't get me wrong I used to hope we were camping on a guide site or the guides would be camping at the same time as us, but I never wanted girls to be allowed into scouts. It ruins the experience due to the limitations that have to be imposed all in the interests of "equal opportunities"

      I dunno. I've seen a number of 'mixed troops' camping in the US. That would have been the wildest of wet dreams as a Boy Scout. It would probably have been more frustrating than anything, but I would have jumped at the chance....

      And to the gentleman above who did not believe that Scouting had military aspirations, look up the early history of Scouting - especially in the UK. It definitely was a pre-military (as opposed to para military) organization. The concept of being in uniform, being beholden to a chain of command, having a group purpose, being outside and physically fit was indeed to create future Bog-Fearing warfighters.

      Now the concept has morphed into something completely weird, but that tends to happen with big organizations.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    37. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assault rifles HAVe to be easy to use - the marines have to be able to fire them too!

    38. Re:Oh yeah by Norwell+Bob · · Score: 1

      And to the gentleman above who did not believe that Scouting had military aspirations, look up the early history of Scouting - especially in the UK. It definitely was a pre-military (as opposed to para military) organization. The concept of being in uniform, being beholden to a chain of command, having a group purpose, being outside and physically fit was indeed to create future Bog-Fearing warfighters. Now the concept has morphed into something completely weird, but that tends to happen with big organizations.

      If that was directed at me, yes I know that the original purpose (or one of, anyway) of the Boy Scouts was to ease a boy's transition into military life (that being in an era when boys would lie about their age to go fight a war at 14 years old, and serving your country in the event of war was practically a given), but that was 110 years ago. None of that exists today, for better or worse.

    39. Re:Oh yeah by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Firing them is one thing. Keeping them operational, reloading during battle, etc, is quite another.

    40. Re:Oh yeah by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

      If you are scrambling to point one of those things at an armored vehicle that is trying to kill you,

      And you don't remember your training, you blow up your dune buggy instead.

    41. Re:Oh yeah by Pvt_Ryan · · Score: 1

      I'm gonna say for worse considering the fact we now have wee shits that use the word "like" every other word, drink cider on the street corners and think tracksuits are fashionable..

    42. Re:Oh yeah by jafac · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, Baden-Powell's (not that he's some kind of deity or anything, he wasn't) original reason for starting scouting in the first place was really more of a means of getting boys off the streets, giving them a structured environment for learning skills for self-reliance, etc. (Well, quite honestly, the real reason was probably, he was a veteran, war-hero, retired, rich, and bored, and maybe had guilt-issues to resolve and wanted to give-back? - who knows?)

      Granted, it's evolved into something much more than that; and granted, the original vision was based on "scoutcraft" which is the skillset he accumulated while serving colonial britain, in various remote regions of the world - he did this with a positive outlook; (as most colonial/imperial powers ever have done) - "we're civilizing them, bringing them as peacefully as we can under one modern, Christian/(honestly, more unitarian) rule). "Scoutcraft" had to do with revering the "locals" (Indian/African/native tribes) just enough to gain their friendship and trust, in order to accomplish roughly the same goals that US Army Rangers do today: win hearts and minds, get the locals to fight our battles for us, yeild intelligence for the main forces, etc. If you look on it in harsh terms, it's really not at all pretty. If it didn't involve boys - well, it very likely could have included how to do long-range head-shots with a rifle, how to instruct cavalry regiments in finding the proper location for mass-graves after slaughtering entire villages, and even primitive biological warfare with smallpox-infested blankets.

      (FWIW; Baden-Powell was known to have dabbled in Nazi-ism, and later denied it. We all make mistakes, eh? I'm not saying he was a monster, either, but he was very much a part of the zeitgeist of imperial, or at least post-imperial britain).

      Other, more practical elements of scoutcraft, of course, knot tying, camping, fire building, camping, wilderness survival, all that fun stuff. Much has been added since the 18th century "military scout" definition.

      But the point of modern scouting, as we adherents like to think - is all about teaching boys life and leadership skills. I don't think most units even do a lot of the hardcore camping and hiking anymore. Especially the ones outside the USA.

      As it applies to boys aged 5 to 11 (cub scouts); in the 21st century. . . navigating our modern-equivalent "colonial wilderness" (the Internet), I think this achievement pin is freaking spot-on. And I say that as a Scoutmaster. I would absolutely have encouraged my son to look at this one.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    43. Re:Oh yeah by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      If it requires no practice at all then why do you think that video games are a problem? If we assume that you're correct then anyone can pick up a gun and be a mass murderer, even if there aren't any video games involved.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    44. Re:Oh yeah by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Anyone who spent more than a few passing years in military service will tell you that the equipment actually got easier to use over time. And I'm not even talking muzzle loader vs. M16, if you look at the radios of the Vietnam era and today's, you'll notice a considerable difference, and I'm not even talking about weight and range. Compare a WW2 era tank to a modern one, I'm fairly confident anyone with a halfway decent idea how to drive vehicles can pilot a contemporary tank, I wouldn't count on them being able to drive a Sherman (or, to make it even more blatant, a T34).

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    45. Re:Oh yeah by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      What use are the instructions - they're upside down!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    46. Re:Oh yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So... why did they recruit stoners to do a non-serious or life threatening mission and try to compare it to real life?
      Entertaining, but hardly a good enough analogy.

  16. We didn't need a badge! by MortimerV · · Score: 1

    Back in my day, we played D&D and Magic and didn't care about getting a badge for it!

    Sounds fun, though. I hope it'll include some game design requirements, to get the scouts thinking a little more about how their games are put together.

    1. Re:We didn't need a badge! by kitsunewarlock · · Score: 1

      I'd almost always get lectured for bringing too many board games with me on camping trips. Video games were completely out of the question--we couldn't even bring cell phones save for emergencies (not that they'd work out in the woods).

      --
      Ginga no Rekshiya Mata Each page.
  17. MAG by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

    Playing MAG will prepare them for a disappointing life as a platoon leader later in life.

    At least they won't be surprised when half their men randomly decide to start running in circles or getting themselves blown up by mortar fire.

  18. How about the popped cherry badge? by George_Ou · · Score: 1

    Or the "I pooped everyday badge"?

    In all honesty, kids don't need more encouragement to game. Yes I'm a parent, but I'm young enough to still be a gamer and trust me, I didn't/don't need more encouragement.

    1. Re:How about the popped cherry badge? by Bakkster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In all honesty, kids don't need more encouragement to game. Yes I'm a parent, but I'm young enough to still be a gamer and trust me, I didn't/don't need more encouragement.

      Have you read the requirements? It's using video games as a cover to teach useful skills. For example, how to research a purchase, about the ESRB and content ratings, how to schedule leisure time so it doesn't interfere with responsibilities, and how to connect a console to a television. It's teaching them to play responsibly, which is probably more than they had done before, while teaching them a few more life skills.

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    2. Re:How about the popped cherry badge? by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      In all honesty, kids don't need more encouragement to game. Yes I'm a parent, but I'm young enough to still be a gamer and trust me, I didn't/don't need more encouragement.

      Have you read the requirements? It's using video games as a cover to teach useful skills. For example, how to research a purchase, about the ESRB and content ratings, how to schedule leisure time so it doesn't interfere with responsibilities, and how to connect a console to a television. It's teaching them to play responsibly, which is probably more than they had done before, while teaching them a few more life skills.

      You've kidding, right? How to research a purchase? Yeah, that's just what we need, teach our children to be even more consumeristic than we are. The ESRB ratings? Kids know about these - if it says anything other than T or M it sucks. They also know to make sure their parents don't know about the ESRB. Schedule time? Yeah, I'd like to see that one (filling out a log to make sure they fulfilled their badge requirements doesn't teach them to be responsible). And the lovably laughable "how to connect to a television." This is the type of thing parents have their ten year old do for them. Not to mention the only skills required are being able to connect the yellow cord to the yellow input and knowing how to work a television remote.

      I play videogames and all but I don't delude myself, I know it's a waste of time.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    3. Re:How about the popped cherry badge? by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      You've kidding, right? How to research a purchase? Yeah, that's just what we need, teach our children to be even more consumeristic than we are.

      How is researching an item promoting rampant consumerism? Wouldn't that be the opposite, just making snap purchases? Are you honestly saying that researching a purchase before you make it is wrong?

      The ESRB ratings? Kids know about these - if it says anything other than T or M it sucks. They also know to make sure their parents don't know about the ESRB.

      If they already followed the ratings, they wouldn't need to demonstrate it to earn the pin. The requirement is just as much to inform the parents as the boys.

      Schedule time? Yeah, I'd like to see that one (filling out a log to make sure they fulfilled their badge requirements doesn't teach them to be responsible).

      How would you teach them, then?

      And the lovably laughable "how to connect to a television." This is the type of thing parents have their ten year old do for them. Not to mention the only skills required are being able to connect the yellow cord to the yellow input and knowing how to work a television remote.

      I think it's naiive to assume all children know about technology just because many or most do. Every kid needs to have a first experience with hardware at some point.

      I play videogames and all but I don't delude myself, I know it's a waste of time.

      Right, it's a leisure activity, just like most of the other pins in cub scouts. That's also why it's completely optional. Should they stop reading for enjoyment, just because they enjoy it? Games can't also be educational?

      Perhaps it is you who must be kidding?

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  19. Don't you have more important things to do? by ndogg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Really? This? Are you going to have a merit badge for going to the movies?

    How about you work on some of those long standing issues like your discrimination against gays, and non-Christians?

    --
    // file: mice.h
    #include "frickin_lasers.h"
    1. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Thiez · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Heterosexual people don't have sexual problems?

    2. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Christians don't have sexual problems?

    3. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Really? This? Are you going to have a merit badge for going to the movies?

      Sort of, except they call it a college degree.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by The+Hatchet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Scouts does have problems, but to be fair I am an atheist, and my Eagle board of review new it, and awarded me the rank anyways. When asked about 'Reverence' I simply answered that I possess reverence, for the mighty forces of nature, that when I am 10 miles into the woods on the top of a snow covered hill, I understand that nature can kill you on a whim. They responded positively.

      Also, a lot of people call scouts 'gay' even though it tends to discriminate against homosexuals. I just find that amusing. I think we should merge boy and girl scouts to just have 'scouts'. Canada does that and it works fine, but in the US? Hell no, they might see each others parts in the group shower, and that would just be the end of the world. The ground would turn to lava and hell would swallow up all the sinners. At least thats what I am told.

      Cub scouts really is a crock, as is Girl scouts. My ex was a girl scout, and their merit badges were like sandwich making, how to keep a kitchen clean, knitting, needlepoint, parenting. Not even kidding.

      --
      Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also, ...
    5. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by warGod3 · · Score: 1

      Not in the scouts... learn to tie knots to fix any sexual problems ;)

      Couple the knot tying and leatherwork and you should be able to work out many sexual "problems."

      --
      "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
    6. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cub scouts really is a crock, as is Girl scouts. My ex was a girl scout, and their merit badges were like sandwich making, how to keep a kitchen clean, knitting, needlepoint, parenting. Not even kidding.

      Maybe they should call it "How not to poison yourself with food" and "planning and budgeting" and "warm feet are in one piece"? Maybe your ex just had a crap den mother (or whomever) who really didn't understand scouting

    7. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by cbreak · · Score: 1
    8. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by snowgirl · · Score: 4, Informative

      Cub Scouts != Boy Scouts

      The Boy Scouts are the ones that hate atheists and gays. Not sure about the Cub Scouts but a quick perusal of the Wikipedia article suggests that they have no such offensive policies.

      Straight from the Wikipedia page:

      The Cub Scouts are a division of the Boy Scouts of America (BSA).

      --
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    9. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? This? Are you going to have a merit badge for going to the movies?

      How droll. Even better, there's a Cinematography Merit Badge -- added 20 years ago -- which requires the boy to make a movie among other things.

      How about you work on some of those long standing issues like your discrimination against gays, and non-Christians?

      You could do like I do, and work for change from the inside. Or you can stay outside and sling mud. Actually, I think I'd prefer that you stayed outside---

    10. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Nobody said homosexuality was their only concern. It's just the easiest to criticize because it isn't politically correct.

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    11. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Really? This? Are you going to have a merit badge for going to the movies?

      Yes.

      But this isn't a merit badge, it's a cub scout award. That's like saying an elementary school graduate has their diploma...

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    12. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by SlamMan · · Score: 1

      Considering its setting next to a pin for marbles and for good manners, I'd say its probobly about at right level for the 9 year olds its targeted to. I remember at that age earning an arrow (do they even still have those arrow patches) for learning a couple ways to tie a tie in cub scouts.

      --
      Mod point free since 2001
    13. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      I think we should merge boy and girl scouts to just have 'scouts'. Canada does that and it works fine, but in the US? Hell no, they might see each others parts in the group shower, and that would just be the end of the world.

      You must not have heard about Venture. Not only is it a branch of the BSA that allows boys and girls, they do all the cool stuff. Long backpacking trips, high adventure, stuff like that. My sister did it and had a blast.

      Cub scouts really is a crock, as is Girl scouts. My ex was a girl scout, and their merit badges were like sandwich making, how to keep a kitchen clean, knitting, needlepoint, parenting. Not even kidding.

      Cub scouts is intended for kids younger than 12. How much do you really expect from them?

      While I'd generally agree that girl scouts isn't as comprehensive or stringent as teh BSA, part of that is just because there's less distinction between the equivalents to cubs and scouts. Was your ex in the program very young, and completing the equivalent of cub awards? Most of their awards look similar to BSA merit badges. Seems reasonable to me.

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    14. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      No, it's easy to criticise, because there's no rational reason for them doing so. There's no so-called "political correctness" here.

    15. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      No, it's easy to criticise, because there's no rational reason for them doing so.

      For some values of 'rational'.

      We're talking primarily Christian-based morals, sex being appropriate only in marriage, which likewise is only between a man and woman. From a secular-humanist or strictly political view, there is no rationality. From an Abrahamic religious standpoint, it would be irrational to cherry-pick moral issues to which scouts should adhere to.

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    16. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'm posting AC because I am not an authorized spokesperson for the Boy Scouts of America. I am, however, a Unit Commissioner for the BSA and have been actively involved in Scouting since my now-16-year-old son was 9. (A unit commissioner is a district-level position which is usually in a supervisory role over several troops.)

      The BSA does not discriminate against non-Christians. In fact, if you read any of the literature, they go out of their way to include other faiths. Note that I said other faiths. Yes, there is a clear gap there for atheists and agnostics. There are religious awards that are available for myriad faiths (including multiple denominations of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, and many others) that are all accorded equal respect and the knot awarded looks the same for all of them. (The knot is actually a small patch with a specific set of colors and a type of knot depicted on it.) Only the pin (looks like a military-style medal) is different based on the faith involved because it usually incorporates some emblem of the faith in question.

      It is no secret that a large number of Scout troops are chartered by religious organizations. Guess what the most prevalent religion is in the USA? Various Christian denominations! Therefore, more Scout troops are chartered by Christian churches than by other religious organizations. This should be no surprise. Sometimes, local civic organizations will charter Scout troops, but usually churches tend to do it.

      The homosexuality issue is a different story, however. I am not entirely sure why that policy is in place because the only objections I can understand are already covered by the two-deep leadership policy which clearly states that no Scout leader is to be alone with a Scout who is not his or her child, there must always be another adult leader present. The child's parent or legal guardian can 'substitute' for the second adult leader in the case of that child. While not foolproof, it does afford some protection.

    17. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by The+Hatchet · · Score: 1

      I actually have heard of ventures, but it is harder to get into, and find a crew than scouts. It is also a step up, and some of us just like regular scouting. I mean, its fun and all but I never got into it. The venture crew off of my troop had a requirement to wear shoes, and I just couldn't deal with it, especially on longer trips.

      Very true about the girl scouts, but like I said there is much to be gained from some kind of merger. Maybe there would be less sexism.

      --
      Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also, ...
    18. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      I actually have heard of ventures, but it is harder to get into, and find a crew than scouts. It is also a step up, and some of us just like regular scouting. I mean, its fun and all but I never got into it. The venture crew off of my troop had a requirement to wear shoes, and I just couldn't deal with it, especially on longer trips.

      Agreed, YMMV. So why do you claim it is systematically a set-up?

      Very true about the girl scouts, but like I said there is much to be gained from some kind of merger. Maybe there would be less sexism.

      There's also much to be lost. Why not teach the boys to become men, and the girls to become women, rather than trying to turn them into the same gender?

      Boys and girls are different, they learn differently, they're interested in different things. Let's not turn the argument against sexual discrimination into an argument in favor of removing all defining characteristics between men and women. I'm not saying that girls can't or shouldn't learn the same skills as boys, but even the differences in learning methods seem enough reason to keep the organizations separate. What's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander.

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    19. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Norwell+Bob · · Score: 1

      Really? This? Are you going to have a merit badge for going to the movies?

      How about you work on some of those long standing issues like your discrimination against gays, and non-Christians?

      Yeah, except they don't have any problem with gays or non-Christians. So, what was your argument again?

    20. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by DigitalCrackPipe · · Score: 1

      The movies merit badge comes right after the "potato chips and twinkies diet" merit badge. Not sure when the hate crime badge will be introduced, but it's coming.

    21. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by G00F · · Score: 1

      Scouting (both boy and even girl) is mostly giving kids something wholesome to do. While giving them useful skills.

      Kids left on their own are mischievous little burgers that cause problems.

      The organizations was embrased by churches and started by people who where Christian faiths, and did their best not to alienate any religion

      --
      The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
    22. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The grandparent is correct in that Cub Scouts are not Boy Scouts. Cub Scouts are from ages 7 to 10 whereas Boy Scouts are from ages 11 to 17. The article is talking about a new belt loop and pin introduced only for Cub Scouts.

      Also, just because they share the same parent organization (Boy Scouts of America) does not mean that they hold the same exact policies on sexual orientation. For example, Learning for Life is another subsidiary program of the Boy Scouts of America which does not discriminate its membership based on gender or sexual orientation.

    23. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by gknoy · · Score: 1

      My wife was a girl scout, and held a fairly high rank. I forget whether she earned their highest award or not.
      I was a boy scout, and never progressed past star scout. (I didn't earn the next two ranks, Life and Eagle, because I was in boy scouts primarily for Awesome Backpacking Fun.)

      My wife had some really great experienced in Girl Scouts. She had to do leadership-related things similar to what high-ranking boy scouts do, and did community service projects similar to what an Eagle scout does. Both programs seem to focus on developing personal responsibility, social skills, and other things which young people will really benefit from.

      In boy scouts, I could have done that too ... but I didn't feel the drive to. On the other hand, I had lots of informal training in social dynamics (such as dealing with personality conflicts or leadership disputes in the middle of a two week backpacking trip), opportunities to bond with other boys (which I didn't really get elsewhere, since I didn't play sports), a place where being a nerd was okay since you tended to be the one who knew how to do all the knots and lashings. ;)

      There were definitely times when things seemed on the verge of Lord of the Flies, too. Jokes were not appropriate for any audience [aside from other teenage boys], pranking was a constant endeavour/risk, and there were always people who you had to learn to deal with despite them being jerks sometimes. On the other hand, there were lots of more-mature or older scouts who we looked up to: they were old hands at camping and hiking and getting along with others. It was a great learning experience.

      I'm not sure how well BSA/GSA would work if they were to merge. (Not that I think that's even remotely likely, since they're separate corporations.) On the one hand, the jackassery that arises in an all-male group seems like something that it's important to learn to overcome ... but at the same time, there was nothing we did (climbing, hiking, tying knots, camping, wilderness survival, shooting, etc ...) which a girl wouldn't be able to do just as well. I imagine the teenage boys would respect the girls in their peer group a lot more if they knew that some of the girls were crack marksmen, or carried heavier packs, and so on. Seeing each other as social equals is something that I think I had to learn outside scouting. (We had men and women as parent chaperones for hiking trips, so that helped too.)

    24. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by snowgirl · · Score: 2, Informative

      From the Wikipedia page:

      A religious emblem of faith, or some other form of religiousity, is a requirement for the Bear and Webelos badges, and by extension the Arrow of Light.

      So, they are religiously discriminating.

      From the "Membership controversy page" on Wikipedia:

      The Boy Scouts of America makes a division between its Scouting programs and the Learning for Life program. The Scouting programs are Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Venturing. The policies that are considered controversial apply only to the Scouting programs.

      Also in 2001, the BSA "revoked the charters of several Cub Scout packs in Oak Park, Illinois, because the sponsors, a parent-teacher group, adhered to a nondiscrimination policy."

      In 1991, twin brothers William and Michael Randall, who had refused to recite the "duty to God" portion of the Cub Scout Promise and Boy Scout Oath, sued to be allowed to continue in the program (see Randall v. Orange County Council and Welsh v. Boy Scouts of America).[49] In addition, there were several other lawsuits involving essentially the same issues.[50] Ultimately, the courts ruled in favor of the Boy Scouts of America in each case.

      Any cursory Google search will show that Cub Scouts has actively discriminated against atheists, and LGBT persons.

      --
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    25. Re:Don't you have more important things to do? by The+Hatchet · · Score: 1

      Your last section is pretty much my point. The male assholishness that happens in large groups of men without women around, and less sexism. I know I started off as the socially awkward kid, but all the jerks dropped out, and I reached eagle and became well respected. It is a good experience, but there is much to be gained by a merger.

      And I must comment it is still possible to maintain a difference between what the two genders learn in a coed environment. In response to Bakkster, it is just an environment where leadership and life skills are taught. Men will learn to be men in the same way, women just won't be taught to be sewing, cooking, cleaning, drop-outs who are good at nothing but rearing children. The gains in respect of the opposite sex far outweigh the losses in 1950's style women. Also membership would expand enormously, I know as a kid everyone always said scouts was 'gay' because it was all guys and no girls. And a lot of girls drop out of girlscouts because it is pretty lame too. The standing principles would be so far advanced, and so many more would benefit.

      Corporations merge and split all the time. The only thing stopping it is fear that somehow allowing little boys and little girls to be in general proximity to each other will somehow result in something terrible, instead of a better learned respect for the opposite sex.

      --
      Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also, ...
  20. Way to go by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It was appearantly not enough to put off every halfway liberal person by their quite questionable membership policies, now they're working hard to alienate their conservative supporters.

    Just like I always say, give someone enough rope and he'll somehow manage to hang himself.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Way to go by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If only I knew how to tie that knot. But I spent all my time in the Scouts playing video games.

    2. Re:Way to go by qwerty8ytrewq · · Score: 1

      You need to work on your 'Tie impossible knots with controller cord' badge!

      --
      Waiting for the other shoe to...
    3. Re:Way to go by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Curse those wireless controllers! Before them, you could easily learn enough to earn that badge trying to untangle those controller cables!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Way to go by thekingofcheap · · Score: 1

      I actually DID learn to tie that knot in Scouts! (not sanctioned)

  21. Why he expects video games be by devent · · Score: 1

    Why he expects that they are going to play ".., violent games, games with a lot of sexual or drug content."? It's like a school proposing to go on a day trip with the class and a parent is worried that they are gonna be somewhere violent and have a lot of sex and drugs, because that is so usual on day trips.

    I played a lot of games and I never got a game with violent, sex and drugs in the store. In what world does he live?

    At last, why is he putting FPS games and ".. violent games, games with a lot of sexual or drug content" in one pot?

    --
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    1. Re:Why he expects video games be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I played a lot of games and I never got a game with violent, sex and drugs in the store. In what world does he live?

      He's a pediatrician. He appears to live in Academia, a highly elevated plane, entry to which is forbidden to mere, unenlightened mortals.

      At last, why is he putting FPS games and ".. violent games, games with a lot of sexual or drug content" in one pot?

      Video games are largely unknown in Academia as they are considered "pedestrian". Residents of Academia, while they may know many things, know very little of video games. What they do know of video games can be summarized in two words, those words being "jack" and "shit".

  22. Don't you have more important things to do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't you have something more important to do than criticize an organization for striving to provide an environment free of sexual problems?

  23. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was a programmer when I was a cub scout sixer. I subsequently won the IOCCC and had my software distributed with four operating systems. If I was a cub scout with a mobile telephone running Java then I would have done much more.

  24. Awesome, great job by qwerty8ytrewq · · Score: 1

    The scouts obviously can teach the declining churches a thing or two about moving with the times (how about PS3s in the confessional?' how long has it been since your last session?). Mind you, they are just following behind the US military (instead of out in front scouting) who are down with gaming as an effective recruitment tool. US military gets "Immoral but effective" badge, the scouts get a "Easy Money" badge.

    --
    Waiting for the other shoe to...
  25. Isnt the whole point of Scouts to 'scout'? by qwerty8ytrewq · · Score: 1

    They should be playing 1st person shooters, out alone behind enemy lines, evade capture, gather intel, use the right knots on captives, start fires in enemy assets, they are training to be scouts, not nancies!

    --
    Waiting for the other shoe to...
    1. Re:Isnt the whole point of Scouts to 'scout'? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      An appropriate ArmA II scenario in hard mode then - dropped into some forest behind enemy lines, no map or mission markers, just your map and compass for navigating, patrols all over the place.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  26. I thinks it's a smart move by crazybit · · Score: 1

    Scouts can earn their pins by spending an hour a day playing games, teaching others how to play better, and researching the best price for games they'd like to buy.

    One hour per day seems perfectly normal for any teenager, teaching others will train their social & verbal skills and the gaming market research will teach them how to get the most out of their buck.

    From my point of view these are all useful skills.

    --
    - Human knowledge belongs to the world
  27. Embraces what kids are doing anyway by stupidflanders · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They're embracing something that kids are doing anyway. The Scouts have been modifying their program in recent years. They now have a leadership position for Troop Webmaster, a Jamboree on the Internet and have wholeheartedly embraced Geocaching. I would have thought this would be marked as one giant leap for nerd-kind. They're saying it's OK to play video games. Where's the "HUZZAH"?

    The requirements talk about comparing prices of games & consoles (and store return policies), teaching others how to play games, balancing homework/videogames, and picking games that will help improve school skills. You know, the kinds of things we discuss here all the time?

    1. Re:Embraces what kids are doing anyway by Mr.Intel · · Score: 1

      Where's the "HUZZAH"?

      Simple answer: It's too easy to hate. Scouting has been labeled as "gay haters" and "pro religion zealots" in the minds of the masses. For those of us who know scouting, we understand things differently. Any institution that sets itself up as "moral" will inevitably fall under attack. Just ask the Mormons (who are also scouters).

      Oh, and HUZZAH!

      --
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    2. Re:Embraces what kids are doing anyway by netsavior · · Score: 1

      For those of us who know scouting, we understand things differently. Any institution that sets itself up as "moral" will inevitably fall under attack. Just ask the Mormons (who are also scouters).

      Any institution that sets hate up as "moral" is destined to be called out.
      Just ask the Mormons, who are also gay haters, and racists to boot.

    3. Re:Embraces what kids are doing anyway by GlennC · · Score: 1

      Because I posted earlier, so I can't mod..

      +10, Highly Insightful.

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      Go on, citizen, stamp the vote card. R or D, your choice.
    4. Re:Embraces what kids are doing anyway by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      It's the difference between a badge for young filmmakers and a badge for watching TV. The young filmmaker learns something. Just like the young programmer. But as an audience member/video game player you don't learn anything. Scouts should be about doing and creating things productive. No one needs to be taught how to waste time.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    5. Re:Embraces what kids are doing anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. My son got his video game beltloop - he's six years old. It was all about using his time wisely - chores and homework come before gaming and leisure time. It's about using something fun to teach responsible behavior. People pissing and moaning about it here simply have no clue what their talking about and haven't actually looked at what the award represents. Get a clue people.

    6. Re:Embraces what kids are doing anyway by Mr.Intel · · Score: 1

      Thank you for making my point so eloquently.

      --
      ASCII tastes bad dude.
      Binary it is then.
  28. Some would say that FPSs fit in by Zoxed · · Score: 1

    Some people would say that First Person Shooters fit in *exactly* with the Scouts militaristic origins/undertones.

    (If it was the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodcraft_Folk/ then it would be a different matter.)

  29. US scouting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't understand this pansy version of scouting with "pins"...
    In Belgium, kids who join scouts usually just go out in Kakhi (girls are in skirts, some boys are in shorts) and do it "Baden Powell" style, learn to read maps and survive but usually just roughen it up or play groupgames in the weekends or get creative.

    Nothing like pansy indoor playing games, I always thought scouting was like "fun things to do outside as a exploring kid too young based on a cool army training manual" which evolved to community oriented organisation ("once scouts, always scouts") bringing decent values and often organizing things for the community. But not the pansy kindof stuff.. I remember alot of wounded kids playing, and they loved it, they also learned to deal with social situations and interacting with and positioning onself large groups. Many eventually end up doing management because they've learned those skills..

    1. Re:US scouting by conureman · · Score: 1

      In the sixties, I got so disgusted with "Scouting" I got out before We-Be-Los(t). As a youngster, I'd studied all my Dad's scouting manuals from the forties, and thought we'd be doing some serious woodcraft. One of the things I learned from TFM was that a REAL SCOUT can survive anywhere you dropped him with only a knife and an axe. Once again, I fail to see the application. I taught myself to make a fire using a bow-drill. (Well, I did it once, good thing it wasn't a real situation...) Maybe if you could learn how to short out the game's battery battery pack and make a fire it would serve a purpose.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    2. Re:US scouting by ZeroExistenZ · · Score: 1

      (Well, I did it once, good thing it wasn't a real situation...) Maybe if you could learn how to short out the game's battery battery pack and make a fire it would serve a purpose.

      I agree to a certain extend. Scouting seems to me as a "purpose" giving thing for kids playing around and giving them sortof guidance. I used to grow up in the weekends in rural environments and the region, so I have ran around in fields, built treehouses and just "dissapeared" to pop up in time for dinner.

      Imagening how life would've looked like 40 years ago, with no TV, boring games, .. I'd imagine they would do the same thing and just take on such a "manual". (the times I ran around playing "Rambo" of "Gi JOE" in camo imagening to be in a war are countless).

      So perhaps it's now out of context, these "skills" aren't going to help you if you would evolve through to army as a man in those days (think that was part of the organisation, same as "hitler jugend" btw...) and are a bit outdated. Yet I'm glad I have these experiences of weekly being out playing with a group of kids, building camps, doing the campfire thing, growing to learn your boundaries and learning how to deal with people...

      To me it has had purpose, even though with moments it was pretty roughing up, but open knees, being allowed to use knifes (to stab your friends, no kidding :P To do "actual kindof cool stuff" with it) and being around skirted girls in early puberty who punch you because they like you. Good times man.

      --
      I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
    3. Re:US scouting by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      It's Cub scouting, for younger kids. In the US, it's the regular Scouts that do all that compass reading, map using, hiking, woodcraft stuff.

    4. Re:US scouting by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      In the sixties, I got so disgusted with "Scouting" I got out before We-Be-Los(t). As a youngster, I'd studied all my Dad's scouting manuals from the forties, and thought we'd be doing some serious woodcraft. One of the things I learned from TFM was that a REAL SCOUT can survive anywhere you dropped him with only a knife and an axe. Once again, I fail to see the application. I taught myself to make a fire using a bow-drill. (Well, I did it once, good thing it wasn't a real situation...) Maybe if you could learn how to short out the game's battery battery pack and make a fire it would serve a purpose.

      Ever cross your mind that you got out before the 'good stuff'? I mean, don't you think even though they teach certain skills to boys up to 18 years old, they may not teach the same things to 9 year olds? That's the reason I didn't participate in cub scouts, and instead worked to earn my Eagle.

      My experiences? I did a 70-mile backpacking trek at Philmont in New Mexico, earned the mile swim award, all three shooting sports merit badges, and became a BSA certified lifeguard. Sure, one could get away with doing the bare minimum of outdoor activities, but I've not experienced any that did. It's unfortunate you had a poor (cub) scouting experience, but I don't think it truly applies to scouting overall.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    5. Re:US scouting by conureman · · Score: 1

      Even as a youngster, I was a bit of an antisocial asshole. When I was doing a sixty mile hike with some YMCA folks, I packed in canned foods and fresh eggs, just so I could piss off everyone that forgot to bring bacon. I guess the experience of cutting living shrubberies (The Horror!) to make shelters and stuff like that isn't important to most people anymore, and Scouting is all about camaraderie and relevance. I wanted to do a little bit more outdated field work. I'm glad it worked for you, but I did see what the BSA were up to and it just wasn't for me. A field manual that doesn't teach the basics, like a figure-4 and a dead-fall, is far from complete.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    6. Re:US scouting by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      A field manual that doesn't teach the basics, like a figure-4 and a dead-fall, is far from complete.

      Are you sure you aren't thinking of the standard manual? The field manual (a supplemental) does have a wide variety of survival and extreme environment information.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
  30. No first person shooters? by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No first person shooters? Are the scouts aware that they actually offer a merit badge in SHOOTING.

    People are up in arms because these violent video games "train young people how to operate weapons". No, they don't. You know what does train young people to use guns? Learning to shoot in the boy scouts.

    JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. No one is bitching about REAL guns with REAL bullets shooting REAL targets, but the second it becomes virtual everyone throws a fucking hissy fit.

    --
    -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    1. Re:No first person shooters? by Vultan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No first person shooters? Are the scouts aware that they actually offer a merit badge in SHOOTING.

      I'm the last person to depend Scouting (they've really gone off the deep end in recent years), but I should at least point out that the Rifle Shooting merit badge significantly emphasizes gun safety and appropriate use. I remember my own experiences from scout camp as a kid where they were hyper-vigilant about safety, only using guns for target practice, and so on. Again, I'm not defending Scouting in general or guns in particular, but there is a big difference between learning how to shoot targets with a rifle (with a high emphasis placed on safety and understanding of the dangers) and shooting up aliens in a first-person shooter.

    2. Re:No first person shooters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In real life you are shooting targets. In the virtual world, you are killing another living being. It desensitizes a young child's mind to some degree.

    3. Re:No first person shooters? by psnyder · · Score: 1

      I'm not advocating anything, but learning to properly operate weapons can be both a difficult endeavor and possibly useful out in the wilderness. It requires patience, an amount of full body control, and (if presented correctly) a respect for the dangerous force of machines.

      Learning the basics of an FPS does none of this.


      Also, we're talking about cub scouts here (approx. age 7-10). Cub scouts are limited to Archery and BB gun shooting with trained supervisors present. Only boy scouts (teenagers) are allowed to operate firearms.

    4. Re:No first person shooters? by iiioxx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. No one is bitching about REAL guns with REAL bullets shooting REAL targets, but the second it becomes virtual everyone throws a fucking hissy fit.

      There's a pretty significant difference between an adult teaching a child marksmanship on paper targets, and violent video games where 99% of the time the *targets* are other human beings, and there is little to no moral context for the violence. There is nothing inherently evil about "REAL guns with REAL bullets." A firearm can be used to provide food and security, or it can be used to harm others maliciously, depending upon the intent of the operator. I learned to shoot as a child at a Boy Scout camp, and it taught me respect for firearms safety, the patience to achieve accurate marksmanship, and pride in my growth and achievement in a real-world skill. What exactly do these hypothetical Cub Scouts learn from playing Halo?

    5. Re:No first person shooters? by SunTzuWarmaster · · Score: 1

      No first person shooters? Are the scouts aware that they actually offer a merit badge in SHOOTING.

      People are up in arms because these violent video games "train young people how to operate weapons". No, they don't. You know what does train young people to use guns? Learning to shoot in the boy scouts.

      JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. No one is bitching about REAL guns with REAL bullets shooting REAL targets, but the second it becomes virtual everyone throws a fucking hissy fit.

      Just for the record, this is CUB SCOUTS. From http://www.boyscouttrail.com/cub-scouts/cub-scouts.asp, this is limited to boys from 1st to 3rd grade. We are talking about ages 6-9. They do not have a merit badge for shooting, but they do have one for shooting BBs and archery. And no, I do not consider BB guns REAL guns with REAL bullets.

    6. Re:No first person shooters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It desensitizes a young child's mind to some degree.

      Says who? I've been playing "violent" video games since I was 10. Being close to 30 now, I still haven't run amok, killed someone or even assaulted a single person. Woooooohoooo, I'm a crazy uncontrollable psychopath and video games are to blame!

    7. Re:No first person shooters? by topsocket · · Score: 1

      Cub Scouts runs through age 12.

    8. Re:No first person shooters? by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, but the scout shooting merit badges teach proper gun safety (which no video game really does) and you are not shooting at living things (real or virtual). Maybe I've just missed the complaints but I've never read a complaint against violent video games because they "train young people how to operate weapons." The complaints I've read are more like "the kids are exposed to violence and gore" for hours on end" which exposure can desensitize kids (and adults) to violence or "children might imitate the violence in violent games [by acting out more aggressively".

      I am a psychologist. One thing we know quite certainly is that when kids are exposed to violence, they will (not all kids of course, but statistically speaking) act more aggressively. This research goes back to the 1950s and has been replicated over and over. Research specifically with violent games shows the same thing. When viewing violence, people do become desensitized to violence.

      Shooting guns isn't violence. Shooting guns at things can be (it depends on the thing and it depends on a person's attitude when shooting). Besides as someone who was a scout and is still involved in scouting, I can say that with shooting merit badges you spend most of your time learning how to care for and safely operate guns and not a lot of time shooting. Games do not teach gun safety but scouting does.

    9. Re:No first person shooters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A few years back scouts in the UK were banned from shooting at targets representing living beings. This annoyed my dad, as he'd just got hold of large numbers of those "running soldier" targets for his troop. His solution (if anyone was looking) was to draw an antenna on them. They're robots, can't you see?

      Probably banned altogether now.

    10. Re:No first person shooters? by Bragador · · Score: 1

      He didn't say the games made people psychopaths. He said games make you stomach violent situations more easily so that you can actually enjoy seeing a soldier die in front of you instead of feeling bad about it.

    11. Re:No first person shooters? by Firemouth · · Score: 1

      What's important to understand about the shooting sports merit badges is they're taught how to properly, and safely, handle a firearm or bow and arrow. Go to any Boy Scout firing range and you won't see a single silhouette of a person. They're specifically taught not to shoot at anything other than targets. Only in hunters safety do they teach you to hunt (which isn't a merit badge). Even then, the reoccuring themes are know what you're shooting at, be confident you can accurately hit your target at the distance you are from the target, know where you need to hit your target for a quick and humane kill, and know what's beyond your target. Even in cub scouts, they allow them to shoot BB guns. Same thing, safety first, everything else is secondary. The foundation of any of the shooting sports is focused on safety and is strictly enforced.

    12. Re:No first person shooters? by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      And no, I do not consider BB guns REAL guns with REAL bullets.

      Then you failed to internalize how firearm safety conditioning works.

    13. Re:No first person shooters? by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      No first person shooters? Are the scouts aware that they actually offer a merit badge in SHOOTING.

      Perhaps you should read the summary again. It is an 'expert', unaffiliated with the BSA, who says no FPS. The actual requirements only point toward age-appropriate games as determined by the ESRB, rather than singling out any genre for exclusion.

      Yes, there is a manufactured reactionary response by people that FPSs cause violence, but not from the BSA.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    14. Re:No first person shooters? by ZekoMal · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Yeah, I agree. It's far more dangerous to teach a kid how to virtually fire a weapon at aliens that speak English than it is to teach a kid how to operate a firearm.

      Wait, what?

    15. Re:No first person shooters? by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      The parent didn't mention danger. Perhaps you should read more carefully.

      Is it more dangerous to go camping amongst wild animals or to go to the movies? I would assume the former, but that doesn't mean I think scouts should abandon camping for movie night. I'm not one of the second-amendment crazies, but you don't have to be a fanatic to see the flaw in your argument.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    16. Re:No first person shooters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is nothing in the belt loop/pin guidelines that says FPS are not allowed. That was a comment made by someone earlier in this thread.

    17. Re:No first person shooters? by Von+Helmet · · Score: 1

      violent video games where 99% of the time the *targets* are other human beings, and there is little to no moral context for the violence

      I've got to take exception to this. Plenty of violent games have moral context. You mentioned Halo, which has the moral context of repelling hostile invaders. That's pretty moral as far as I'm concerned. The same goes for other games like Call of Duty - wars are waged, generally, for moral reasons.

      OK, so something like GTA is decidedly immoral, so I'll accept any objections to that on these grounds, but to say that violent games have little to no moral context seems a bit short sighted to me.

    18. Re:No first person shooters? by ZekoMal · · Score: 1
      Disclaimer: my first posts are made when I first wake up and tend to equate to morning after word vomit.

      That being said...

      The argument being laid out on the table is that there is a huge difference between shooting at paper targets and simulating shooting at digital targets that look like people. The overall tone of their post was that shooting at paper targets is inherently better for you.

      Or, to throw it into your comparison:

      "There's a huge difference between going camping and going to see a movie about campers that get eaten by bears. Personally, I'd rather have the scouts go camping then go to see that movie, because what's that movie teaching them?"

      Someone doesn't have to use a word to mean that word, for that matter. The insinuation is that video games offer no moral repercussion for mowing down innocent pixels, which teaches bad morals to kids and therefore makes them into mass murderers. Or something.

      I'm just gonna lie down.

    19. Re:No first person shooters? by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      You just contradicted yourself there. "He didn't say that games made people psychopaths, he just said that they make you enjoy killing people". That's the fucking definition of a psychopath.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    20. Re:No first person shooters? by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 1

      "And no, I do not consider BB guns REAL guns with REAL bullets."

      Why don't you go have someone shoot you with one and then see how you feel about that.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    21. Re:No first person shooters? by iiioxx · · Score: 1
      First off:

      wars are waged, generally, for moral reasons.

      is a pretty naive sentiment. Regardless...

      Plenty of violent games have moral context. You mentioned Halo, which has the moral context of repelling hostile invaders. That's pretty moral as far as I'm concerned. The same goes for other games like Call of Duty

      Please. Perhaps you are an adult, and so you can see an implied moral context in the game scripts, but the games themselves do not convey such a context. There are no mission screens that say that war and killing are bad things, but unfortunately sometimes good men must engage in terrible acts for the good of communities and nations. The missions read, "kill this enemy, take this territory, obtain this objective." And you receive a reward for that. Is there any war video game out there today with rules that say, "if you intentionally target and kill civilians or bystanders, your character will go to jail and be unplayable for 20 years?" Oh, maybe you lose some points or something, that will teach a moral lesson, right?

      I've watched my 13 year old nephew play these games. What's the objective, skip the boring flavor text, let's blow stuff up. Ask him, "why are you killing all those guys?" You don't hear, "Because they are invading my peaceful country and terrorizing the population." You hear, "because that's the mission."

      Sorry, I just don't see an overt moral context being presented there.

    22. Re:No first person shooters? by iiioxx · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I agree. It's far more dangerous to teach a kid how to virtually fire a weapon at aliens that speak English than it is to teach a kid how to operate a firearm.

      Lots of everyday things are dangerous. Driving a car, using power tools, working with electricity. That doesn't mean we don't teach children to do these things. A weapon is a dangerous object, but it is far more dangerous in the hands of an untrained operator (to both the operator, and to everyone else). Unless you take the extreme view that "all guns are bad," then I can't see any reasonable reason why we shouldn't teach children to use a firearm safely and responsibly.

    23. Re:No first person shooters? by iiioxx · · Score: 1

      The argument being laid out on the table is that there is a huge difference between shooting at paper targets and simulating shooting at digital targets that look like people. The overall tone of their post was that shooting at paper targets is inherently better for you.

      And you don't see any contextual difference between shooting at a series of concentric circles on a paper target under close adult guidance and supervision, in the real world, where the destructive nature of the firearm is both emphasized and readily apparent --

      -- and shooting at human or humanoid representations in a game where your mission is to kill others? Repeatedly. For hours and hours.

      If you don't denote some measure of difference there, then I have to deduce that you either A) have never fired a weapon at a target range, B) have never played a violent video game, or C) are in fact, psychotic.

    24. Re:No first person shooters? by iiioxx · · Score: 1
      I forgot to add:

      Or, to throw it into your comparison:

      "There's a huge difference between going camping and going to see a movie about campers that get eaten by bears. Personally, I'd rather have the scouts go camping then go to see that movie, because what's that movie teaching them?"

      I think the better example would be:

      "There's a huge difference between going camping and going to see a movie about campers that makes camping look easy and uncomplicated. I'd rather have the scouts go camping and actually learn what it's like to camp then go see that movie, because what's that movie teaching them?"

    25. Re:No first person shooters? by Bragador · · Score: 1

      Nah, it's not. Training people to see some humans as targets and enjoying the kills is not the same thing as enjoying the death of everyone.

  31. growing up with videogames by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I grew up playing videogames and, except for a compulsive obsession with stomping turtles, I turned out just fine.

  32. Better than TV by The+Hatchet · · Score: 1

    Haven't we seen that video games at least engage the mind and don't induce the same fattening as television. Perhaps the 1 hour of video games instead of 1 hour of television is a good difference.

    Cub scouts really wasn't that fulfilling, I didn't learn that much in it, Boy scouts is where you learn the real leadership skills, and life skills. You have to move with the times, and try to keep the same values at the same time.

    --
    Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also, ...
  33. The REAL requirements by MasterPatricko · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ignoring Fox's propaganda, the list of tasks a scout has to do to earn this is pretty decent. Considering these kids are gonna be playing anyway, why not teach them to play right ...I see nothing to complain about in the following list.

    Belt Loop
    Complete these three requirements:
    1. Explain why it is important to have a rating system for video games. Check your video games to be sure they are right for your age.
    2. With an adult, create a schedule for you to do things that includes your chores, homework, and video gaming. Do your best to follow this schedule.
    3. Learn to play a new video game that is approved by your parent, guardian, or teacher.

    Academics Pin
    Earn the Video Games belt loop and complete five of the following requirements:
    1. With your parents, create a plan to buy a video game that is right for your age group.
    2. Compare two game systems (for example, Microsoft Xbox, Sony PlayStation, Nintendo Wii, and so on). Explain some of the differences between the two. List good reasons to purchase or use a game system.
    3. Play a video game with family members in a family tournament.
    4. Teach an adult or a friend how to play a video game.
    5. List at least five tips that would help someone who was learning how to play your favorite video game.
    6. Play an appropriate video game with a friend for one hour.
    7. Play a video game that will help you practice your math, spelling, or another skill that helps you in your schoolwork.
    8. Choose a game you might like to purchase. Compare the price for this game at three different stores. Decide which store has the best deal. In your decision, be sure to consider things like the store return policy and manufacturer’s warranty.
    9. With an adult’s supervision, install a gaming system.

    --
    I'd tell a UDP joke, but you may not get it. I'd tell a TCP joke, but I'd have to keep repeating it until you got it.
    1. Re:The REAL requirements by pieisgood · · Score: 2, Funny

      5. Tip one: Don't suck
            Tip two: stop dieing
            Tip three: Get the shiny things
            Tip four: press harder
            Tip five: If all of the above fail, rage quit

      --
      Eat sleep die
    2. Re:The REAL requirements by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      I remember Craig Kubey's "Winner's Book of Video Games" had some good general strategies that are even somewhat applicable today. Let's see if I can remember some:

      1. Choose life, avoid death. If you stay alive, you can play forever, racking up tons of points.

      2. Defense Defense. Defense is more important than offense, but sometimes a good offense can compensate for a weak defense.

      3. Not to much, or too little, but just right. Don't waste your most powerful weapons on weak opponents. Then again, if you're about to die, using your superweapon might save you.

      4. Pig out when the slop is handy. Some games give you moments where you can really rack up points/items/foo...take advantage

      5. Be ship/character centric. Don't focus so much on your opponents that you fail to see that you're about to run out of smart bombs or energy.

      6. A person's got to know their limitations. Meaning know the limits of your on screen representations abilities, if you can only shoot half way across the screen, don't bother shooting at something all the way across.

      I used to have a copy of the book, but I can't find it.

    3. Re:The REAL requirements by ccandreva · · Score: 1

      I have been volunteered to teach this ping in my son's Den. I will admit to having a similar reaction to most here when I first heard of it. (My initial reaction to "explain why it is important to have a rating system" was "Well, you have to know who you are better than !" Whoops.)

      I have decided however to concentrate on the more technical aspects. We are talking about 8-9 year olds here, so I'm going to start with how to install a system, including what the different jacks are, the difference between composite, component, HDMI, etc. I'm also going to cover some history of video games, Space War, Pong, Atari 2600, show some classic gaming systems. Also cover online safety, and exchanging Nintendo friend codes (which I've found most of the other kids and parents actually don't know how to do).

      Then top it off with some time in the basement arcade:
      http://www.westnet.com/~chris/arcade/MyBasement/

  34. How about something more useful? by bezenek · · Score: 1

    How about a merit badge for creating Web pages or setting up a Web site.

    Maybe one for completing a simple self-taught course in a simple language like Java?

    -Todd

    p.s. The discrimination thing is an unfortunate issue, but, hey, just "Don't tell."

    --
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico.
    1. Re:How about something more useful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It kinda exists:
      http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/mb-COMP.aspx

    2. Re:How about something more useful? by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      How about a merit badge for creating Web pages or setting up a Web site. Maybe one for completing a simple self-taught course in a simple language like Java?

      The pin is for cubs not scouts, most cubs are still learning to read and write.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    3. Re:How about something more useful? by bezenek · · Score: 1

      How about a merit badge for creating Web pages or setting up a Web site. Maybe one for completing a simple self-taught course in a simple language like Java?

      The pin is for cubs not scouts, most cubs are still learning to read and write.

      When I was a Cub scout, I was programming my TI-57 calculator.

      I think we often set the bar too low for our children. New math might have been the worst thing to happen to me academically. I did not find out how devastating it was until I took my first graduate-level mathematics course at the University of Wisconsin.

      -Todd

      --
      Omne ignotum pro magnifico.
    4. Re:How about something more useful? by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "When I was a Cub scout, I was programming my TI-57 calculator."

      Yeah, and I built a crystal radio when I was seven (we didn't have calculators in the 60's). I'm not saying kids under 10 are stupid but if you set the bar too high the majority will lose interest. A kid needs to be keenly interested before they do remarkable stuff and even then there may not be a great deal of understanding about what they are doing.

      For example: when my daughter was 4 I was amazed to see her one day start up my XT from a floppy, type in some commands at the dos prompt, navigate through a complex text based menu system and start playing "Ug Olympics". I asked her how she could do this without being able to read or write, her reply - "You showed me and I remebered it". I hadn't actually "shown" her anything, she had just watched me set up her favorite game for her.

      "New math might have been the worst thing to happen to me academically."

      I know what you mean, I was a victim of "new english". Despite being ranked in the 95th percentile for comprehension at HS, I didn't know the difference between a verb and a noun until I was 30 and studing for my degree. Even at 50 it still requires effort to avoid some of the bad habits I was taught in grade school.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    5. Re:How about something more useful? by Bakkster · · Score: 2, Informative

      How about a merit badge for creating Web pages or setting up a Web site. Maybe one for completing a simple self-taught course in a simple language like Java?

      Already been done. Computers Merit Badge, for Boy Scouts.

      That said, Cub Scout awards are more about participation and providing learning opportunities, rather than judging proficiency. Merit badges, on the other hand, do require a demonstration of proficiency.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
  35. Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by mattr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Disclaimer: Cub Scouts was awesome and I remember most the warm feeling when the scouts gathered at a parents house. Video games would fit that atmosphere. The requirements are actually not so bad I think for this badge. Whereas I dropped out of Boy Scouts after some years when the bullying overwhelmed the exciting but life threatening campouts (8 miles into the wilderness in freezing winter, other scouts trying to burn down your tent, etc.) loved the hiking though.

    Okay in this video merit badge for cub scouts I am worried about these lines:

    Choose a game you might like to purchase. Compare the price for this game at three different stores. Decide which store has the best deal. In your decision, be sure to consider things like the store return policy and manufacturer’s warranty.
    With an adult’s supervision, install a gaming system.

    It seems to require you to buy games in a store and the purchasing experience is emphasized. Being aware of the return policy is good but there seems to be a requirement to buy something. What if you want to use Free (or free) Software? Likewise "install a gaming system" could mean install a linux system on an old PC, and download some free games for it. So I think it would be better for cubs to emphasize the noncommercial aspect.
    Also there is the cost of hardware, whether a console or not. If you can use an existing computer then the "install" could really mean just doing a software install.

    I think it would be great if linux distro's sites had a page for Cub Scouts to learn about Free Software and guide them to fulfilling all the requirements for these badges and belt loops using Linux.

    1. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty certain that install a gaming system pretty much means match the HDMI cable to the HDMI hole in the back of your TV. Maybe for some scouts it might mean matching red to red, white to white, and yellow to yellow.

      If you are imagining a scenario where they need to obtain an old computer, changing the operating system, and then enjoying 1000s of free games. They don't offer a badge for that.

    2. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      What if you want to use Free (or free) Software?

      You're joking right? The Cub Scouts, as a division of the now jingoistic Boy Scouts of America, would never support such a COMMUNIST idea.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    3. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by prionic6 · · Score: 1

      You could just skip that and pick your 5 out of the other 8 remaining requirements.

    4. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by mosbalance · · Score: 1

      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.

    5. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 1

      You do not have to complete that requirement; you must complete five of nine and that is merely one of the nine.

    6. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by Bragador · · Score: 1

      Teaching kids about responsible shopping sounds good to me.

    7. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in the third grade (right in the heart of Cub Scouts) most kids have very little concept of money and value. There is no requirement to buy anything, but rather to immerse oneself in the process of comparative value analysis. Most often, activities like these are done in a group as a field trip and the Den Leader will take a group of boys to several stores and let the boys discover that the Conns down the street offers an entirely different value set than the Walmart or Gamestop.
      I think you are getting defensive about your linux, but I'd think that virtually all 1st, 2nd or 3rd graders, and likely the 4th and 5th graders, too, have ZERO concept of Linux and very little desire to set up a computer for gaming. Kids don't think of computers as gaming systems. They think of laptops, netbooks and ipads at web browsers and youtube viewers. They think of desktops as the computers old people use.

    8. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by tiedyejeremy · · Score: 1

      here it is: the apple fanboys and the linux nerds feel that the term "game system" is an affront to their systems. Do you really think of Linux as a video game system, first?
      lol

      --
      Anything you say will be held against you. ... "tits"
    9. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prove it. I can't prove there is but this points out the stupidity of this argument.

    10. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Choose a game you might like to purchase. Compare the price for this game at three different stores. Decide which store has the best deal. In your decision, be sure to consider things like the store return policy and manufacturer’s warranty."

      This does not indicate that a game should be purchased. It only requires that your child choose a product and then learn how to shop around and read the fine print. On the other hand it is unrealistic to think that most kids will never purchase a video game and this will teach them how to buy responsibly. Most 6-10 year old's won't have a good grasp of the open source movement but if a parent wants to guide there child towards those values the requirements don't hamper that. Most of these badges are intended to have a parent determine when a child has completed a requirement and offer a lot of leeway for the parent to modify the requirements to fit the circumstance.

    11. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Create a page for it then!

      Less "talk", more "do"!

    12. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by nolesrule · · Score: 1

      The requirement is about learning to comparison shop (an actual life skill), yet actually making a purchase is not part of the requirement.

      --
      -- nolesrule
    13. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It seems to require you to buy games in a store and the purchasing experience is emphasized."

      No it doesn't. It says select a game and compare the prices and look at return policies. You can do all of this with a pencil and paper without spending a dime. It doesn't say "go buy a game." A little consumer education wouldn't hurt the youth of today.

    14. Re:Commercial vs. Academic focus in the badge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no actual purchase requirement; nowhere does it say you have to buy anything. There is a "create a plan to buy" (planning, budgeting, saving) and a "choose a game you might like to buy and compare prices" (comparison, making informed choices). Nowhere do you actually have to buy. The purchasing experience isn't emphasized, the actual skills being taught are used every day, even outside of the purchasing arena.

      Also, remember that we are talking about Cub Scouts, boys from 6-10 years of age (1st - 5th grade). As a Cub Scout leader, I can assure you, they are not at that age ready for the whole install a Linux distro experience. For most of the boys, except maybe the Webelos, even figuring out how to plug in the three or four cables they need might be a bit of a stretch.

      There are other more appropriate belt loops and pins for learning about Linux (http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Awards/Boys/sanda/computers.aspx), although even that is a fairly advanced topic for Cub Scouts; when I took my boys through that one, I simply tried to make them understand that there are more computers out there than just PCs and Windows. I mentioned Macs, Linux, distributed systems, and mainframes. Even in the two minutes or so that I took for that, their eyes kind of glazed over.

  36. Supervision?!? by ATestR · · Score: 2, Informative

    The question is, who's going to supervise the scouts?

    These are young boys. The parents are still supposed to be involved at this age. Once they get to boy scouts, then its OK to give them a little bit more freedom.

    --
    âoeAny society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    1. Re:Supervision?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The pin will look great next to my "gay bashing" medal and my "force Chr-stianity down everyone's throat" merit badge.

    2. Re:Supervision?!? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      The parents are still supposed to be involved at this age.

      Ya well... if only the parents didn't act like children themselves. My friend, you just tripped over the tip of a very large iceberg.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  37. (De)Evolving with the times by adosch · · Score: 1

    I really almost see this as an attempt by Boy Scouts as a selling point to get more of the younger "Nintendo-and-Mt-Dew baby" generation interested in Boy Scouts itself in their parents already can't. Unless your child has a really identifiable personality and has no problem being an individual than a follower, of course it's going to be a struggle on a parent or club organization level to have any child be motivated to earn badges without feeling embarrassed, stupid, or get razzed at school because they helped some old lady across the street wearing their navy blue shorts, brown button-up and their sash.

    I just think it's a real stretch for Boy Scouts to add this as something you 'earn'. Most parents get their children involved in an organization like this to get their children out of the house and away from TV and video games. There's already a Computer merit badge that you can earn, so it's tough to accept this idea as any more than lure bait or to re-gain interest in the club.

    1. Re:(De)Evolving with the times by topsocket · · Score: 3, Informative

      THIS IS NOT THE BOY SCOUTS. This is an activity belt loop and pin for the Cub Scouts, aged 7 to 12. And if anyone bothered to read the requirements, you would see that the award is a thinly-veiled attempt to teach the boys about thriftiness, enjoying family time, communication, and responsibility. The 3 main requirements have the boy create a schedule to complete homework and chores BEFORE games, explain the video game rating system and why it needed, and play a game that must be approved by a parent. Also, Pickens claims that the Scout can earn an award by playing games 1 hour a day. Nowhere in the requirements that Pickens links to does it state that a certain amount of time MUST be spent gaming. FUD. The Video Game award is only 1 of 13 awards recently released for Cub Scouts:Disability Awareness, Family Travel, Good Manners, Hiking, Hockey, Horseback Riding, Kickball, Nutrition, Pet Care, Photography, Reading and Writing, Skateboarding. I applaud BSA for updating a program with over 75 years of tradition, making Cub Scouting well rounded and relevant to the modern 7-12 year old boy.

  38. This is not the end of Scouting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OK this is Slashdot. I know that people don't read the underlying articles referred to in the original post.

    Lots of things you have to understand.

    First, these are belt loops and pins for Cub Scouts - i.e. first through fifth grade kids. These are not merit badges for Boy Scouts (11-18 year olds).

    Second, look at the actual requirements. Things like- play a video game with a parent. Make a schedule that includes doing your chores, doing your homework, playing video games. Research prices. Talk about game ratings. Play a videogame with a friend or family member.

    Third, Scouting has to respond to the times. Need I explain to folks who read Slashdot, that lots of kids play videogames. Some, kids play excessively. Videogaming is a feature of childhood. Should scouting stick their head in the sand and ignore it?

    Fourth, Dr. Strasburger (referred to in the Foxnews article) doesn't seem to have either read or understood the requirements and plainly has no idea about the way that Cub Scouts works. Cub Scouting is a family activity, the whole design and focus of the program is that Cub Scouting is something parents do with their kid. So the answer to Dr. Strasburger;s question - who is going to choose the game and who is going to supervise is obvious - parents. The requirements are set up that way, and parents will be the ones to sign off that the boy has completed the requirements.

    And, there is no requirement to play an hour a day. The requirement is only to play a videogame with a family member for one hour in total.

    This is one of a new group of belt loop & pins introduced about six months ago. The complete list of new belt loops / pins:

    Disabilities Awareness
    Family Travel
    Good Manners
    Nutrition
    Pet Care
    Photography
    Reading and Writing
    Video Games

    Hiking
    Hockey
    Horseback Riding
    Kickball
    Skateboarding

  39. its what the scouts are FOR by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    People seem to forget that scouting was originally seen as a way to train BETTER SOLDIERS. (Could be because Scouting worked so hard to camoflage it in the 70s)

    This is clearly still on that path, as far as the US military in the 21st century is concerned.

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:its what the scouts are FOR by topsocket · · Score: 1

      Care to back this up? Sure, Scouting was started in the UK by a former British soldier and spy but the Boy Scouts of America was started by a published in 1910 with the Cub Scouts following 20 years later. I assume that you are not involved in Scouting, otherwise you would know more about the mission and values of Scouting - self-respect, confidence, respect for others, country and God, and an appreciation for the outdoors and a willingness to help others whenever needed. Maybe it just happens that these are also values of good soldier, but really, is there anything wrong with aspiring to be a batter citizen of the world?

    2. Re:its what the scouts are FOR by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Then they should focus the gaming badge on playing flight sims, to train up the new drone operators which will be needed in huge numbers soon.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    3. Re:its what the scouts are FOR by LiENUS · · Score: 1

      I don't know if there's any truth to it as I never checked. But rumor was that being in the boy scouts really helps you out if you join the military through OCS, apparently eagle scout + 4 years bachelors degree == quick trip to Major as soon as you finish OCS.

    4. Re:its what the scouts are FOR by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      First, let me point out that yes, I've been involved with scouting, both as a scout myself and as a parent of two Life scouts working on Eagle projects in May.

      Second, there's a difference between an organizations' formally stated aims and what they mean in practical terms. Yes, there has been a 'political' distancing of the military and Boy Scouts for a while; starting in the Vietnam era, the 'militarism' thing was seen to be distasteful by BSA, and in more recent administrations the absolute stance by BSA against homosexual scoutmasters has been distasteful to the Left. So the US gov't and the BSA have formally grown further apart. Let's remember however - there remains a very strong, possibly unique connection between the military and scouting: Eagle Scout rank still gives you a better starting rank and pay grade in the military (the ONLY non-military award/rank that they so honor).

      Further, look at the history - Baden-Powell's Scouting for Boys was a juvenile rewrite of his Scouting for NCOs, and grew directly out of his use of 12-15 yr old boys at Mafeking (the Mafeking Cadet Corps) in the Boer War. To suggest that military utility to the country wasn't the original and primary motivation is utterly naive; certainly it's been overlaid with many decades of 'touchy-feely' reinterpretation (as well as program changes, such as the elimination of marching training), but don't mistake the frosting for the cake itself.

      Finally, you might want to watch this: http://www.bsalegal.org/tribute-to-the-military-293.asp

      --
      -Styopa
  40. Stupid. by moxley · · Score: 1

    Why not a badge for system building, or tech troubleshooting?

    I love video games, but scouting isn't about sitting in your home playing video games.

  41. This beats the hell out of gluing popsicle sticks by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

    When I tried being a cub scout for a couple years, all we did was sit around in the suburbs and glue popsicle sticks together. Do the cub scouts even go outside anymore?

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  42. Another reason to be ashamed of my Eagle award? by thekingofcheap · · Score: 1

    First I had to lie to BSA about my atheism. Then I have to let others know I'm not homophobic when I tell them about my Eagle award. Now I have to watch while one of my life's proudest achievements is further devalued by BSA's desperate attempts to be "cool."

    Before you write me off, please note that I am an avid player of video games. Metal Gear Solid 3 pretty much cemented my "C" average in college. I even carry around a DS as an adult. Still, I feel this merit badge is, well, devoid of merit. I fail to see how it is congruent with the objectives of Scouting, to provide boys (and girls) with a lasting appreciation of nature, leadership skills, and practical life knowledge. Scouting taught me how to change an oil filter, light fire without matches and to understand how airplanes fly. Stomping goombas doesn't fit in.

    I guess I should mute my outrage until I know the requirements for acquiring the badge, but I can't help doubting they will involve much in the way of understanding how game consoles work. Indeed, there is already a merit badge for computer skills.

    1. Re:Another reason to be ashamed of my Eagle award? by ekimminau · · Score: 1

      You need to re-read the requirements.

      Requirements for the Video Games Belt Loop
      Complete these three requirements:
      Explain why it is important to have a rating system for video games. Check your video games to be sure they are right for your age.

      Which teaches kids what games are appropriate for their age and why.

      With an adult, create a schedule for you to do things that includes your chores, homework, and video gaming. Do your best to follow this schedule.

      Which teaches kids time management and responsability.

      Learn to play a new video game that is approved by your parent, guardian, or teacher.

      Which will hopefully (at cub scouts age) be a game with a bit more value than an FPS. Wii Resort sword fighting, bowling, the flying game and archery are all VERY cool games for cub scouts. i.e. revist the other things you learned as a cub scout.

      Requirements for the Video Games Pin
      Earn the Video Games belt loop, and complete five of the following requirements:
      With your parents, create a plan to buy a video game that is right for your age group.

      Which teaches among other things, online shopping skills, the value of a dollar and reinforces age appropriate game selection.

      Compare two game systems (for example, Microsoft Xbox, Sony PlayStation, Nintendo Wii, and so on).
      Explain some of the differences between the two.

      Comparison of features further improves shopping skills. Not really a "scouting thing" I will agree, but still a usefull skill.

      List good reasons to purchase or use a game system.

      No intrinsic value, although Wii-fit is a lot of fun.

      Play a video game with family members in a family tournament.

      We have family game night on the Wii. How long has it been since you spent time with your parents?

      Teach an adult or a friend how to play a video game.

      Teaching skills. Video game is just a tool.

      List at least five tips that would help someone who was learning how to play your favorite video game.

      Make them think about more training skills.

      Play an appropriate video game with a friend for one hour.

      Cub scouts. Friendship. Identifying appropriate games. Good stuff.

      Play a video game that will help you practice your math, spelling, or another skill that helps you in your schoolwork.

      Again, trying to reinforce something better than an FPS.

      Choose a game you might like to purchase. Compare the price for this game at three different stores. Decide which store has the best deal. In your decision, be sure to consider things like the store return policy and manufacturer’s warranty.

      More shopping skills, reasearch, feature comparison.

      With an adult’s supervision, install a gaming system.

      Great experience. Learn how to hook up a game system. Why is the cable for sound red and white? Why is video yellow? What is HDMI? How do you select video input sources. Again, not outdoor scouting but all valuable skills.

      --
      Armaments, 2-9-21 And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade' N
  43. Not just pins! Belt Loops Too! by ekimminau · · Score: 1

    My 8 yr old son told me that he saw they have video game belt loops in Boys Life this month!

    http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/content/cub_scouts_video_games_academics_pin_and_belt_loop-2035.asp

    Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts may complete requirements in a family, den, pack, school, or community environment. Tiger Cubs must work with their parents or adult partners. Parents and partners do not earn loops or pins.

    Requirements for the Video Games Belt Loop
    Complete these three requirements:
    Explain why it is important to have a rating system for video games. Check your video games to be sure they are right for your age.
    With an adult, create a schedule for you to do things that includes your chores, homework, and video gaming. Do your best to follow this schedule.
    Learn to play a new video game that is approved by your parent, guardian, or teacher.

    Requirements for the Video Games Pin
    Earn the Video Games belt loop, and complete five of the following requirements:
    With your parents, create a plan to buy a video game that is right for your age group.
    Compare two game systems (for example, Microsoft Xbox, Sony PlayStation, Nintendo Wii, and so on). Explain some of the differences between the two. List good reasons to purchase or use a game system.
    Play a video game with family members in a family tournament.
    Teach an adult or a friend how to play a video game.
    List at least five tips that would help someone who was learning how to play your favorite video game.
    Play an appropriate video game with a friend for one hour.
    Play a video game that will help you practice your math, spelling, or another skill that helps you in your schoolwork.
    Choose a game you might like to purchase. Compare the price for this game at three different stores. Decide which store has the best deal. In your decision, be sure to consider things like the store return policy and manufacturer’s warranty.
    With an adult’s supervision, install a gaming system.

    --
    Armaments, 2-9-21 And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade' N
  44. Wonder what's next... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A merit badge for stuffing your face with Chee-tos?

  45. BAD Premise, ASSUMPTIONS have been made. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The writer states "a group founded on the principles of building character and improving physical fitness" but that's not really the intended purpose. It would have been nice if the writer had done even the tiniest amount of research before spouting off the inaccuracy.
    From wikipedia: "The BSA's stated purpose at its incorporation in 1910 was "to teach [boys] patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred values."[3]:7 Later, in 1937, Deputy Chief Scout Executive George J. Fisher expressed the BSA's mission; "Each generation as it comes to maturity has no more important duty than that of teaching high ideals and proper behavior to the generation which follows."[14] The current mission statement of the BSA is "to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."[4]"

  46. Oh man! That ain't fair! by ReallyEvilCanine · · Score: 1

    If they had this back in my day I would've gone from Bear to Weeblo in about 12 minutes. I had to spend three weeks just carving a fucking molar out of Ivory soap. And then there was the creepy den mother's boyfriend.

  47. One hour, one time - not one hour a day by m4n1m4l · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Let's look at the actual requirements at scouting.org. It says, "Play an appropriate video game with a friend for one hour." That means one hour, once. Furthermore, that requirement is one of nine, only six of which must be fulfilled in order to earn the Video Games pin. As a scout leader, I can tell you that the Boy Scouts of America does not promote spending a lot of time playing video games. We do, however, recognize that video games are a normal part of a kid's life experience. So why not teach our kids how to evaluate systems and games from every aspect? Why not teach them how to think critically about selecting and playing video games? There is no specific mention in the BSA guidelines about first-person shooters or any other kind of game. The requirement is to understand the ESRB rating system, to be able to explain it, and to be able to make good choices about selecting games. The guidelines don't even prescribe what it means to make good choices; rather, they assume that the boys and their parents are intelligent enough to make their own decisions. I am a software developer, lifelong gamer, and dad of a scout.

    --
    Code like the wind, Bullseye!
  48. you, sir, are incorrect by tiedyejeremy · · Score: 1

    it's fun to think that scouting was intended as a way to train better soldiers, but it's just not the basis of the BSA

    --
    Anything you say will be held against you. ... "tits"
  49. Yes, scouts do more than glue popsicle sticks by ekimminau · · Score: 1

    Saturday morning we performed a flag retirement and new flag installation ceremony at my son's school for the new flag our pack purchased with a fundraiser.

    Then we went on a 45 minute hike through a nature preserve (completing 4 wolf requirements and earning 2 belt loops in the process).

    --
    Armaments, 2-9-21 And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade' N
  50. I think you missed the Joke: It's Fox News by tiedyejeremy · · Score: 1

    Naturally, you're not going to get the whole story. Just enough of it to try to create outrage against the liberal weakening of patriotic program! Read the ACTUAL requirements before passing judgment.

    --
    Anything you say will be held against you. ... "tits"
  51. Fox by windcask · · Score: 2, Funny

    I stopped reading at "Fox News reports."

  52. Sexual Content by Johnberg · · Score: 1

    I would imagine any video games portraying homosexuality in any manner are strictly verboten. All characters in all games must be heterosexual. Pikachu would be an example of a verboten character.

    1. Re:Sexual Content by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      I would imagine any video games portraying homosexuality in any manner are strictly verboten. All characters in all games must be heterosexual. Pikachu would be an example of a verboten character.

      Nice try, but I would imagine games that portray ANY sexuality of ANY kind would be forbidden. Or, "verboten" as you would say. It is Cub Scouts after all.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
  53. New motto... by webdog314 · · Score: 1

    "You are NOT prepared!"

  54. I am a Cub Scout Den Leader by GlennC · · Score: 1

    And as the person responsible for making sure the Cub Scouts in my den actually meet the requirements, I am going pay particular attention if any of my Scouts claim completion for the belt loop or badge.

    That being said, I see no real problem with this, and yes I read the requirements for the badge. In my opinion, one of the purposes of Scouting is to allow the boys and their families to learn about various subjects they may not have exposure to otherwise.

    For example, the Cubmaster in our pack is a certified Hunter Safety instructor. He has taught the boys things about the outdoors that I did not know. I gave a presentation to the boys (and their parents) about computer and Internet usage. We work together with the parents to try to share our knowledge and views with the boys in a fun and supportive environment.

    My goal is that my Cub Scouts (and my son is one of them) will have the confidence and knowledge to make good decisions on their own.

    --
    Go on, citizen, stamp the vote card. R or D, your choice.
  55. Free video games w/ your Happy Meal OK? by rjejr · · Score: 1

    So can the McDonalds in California now start giving away free video games instead of toys with their Happy Meals and say they are doing it to support the Cub Scouts?

  56. Educational Video Games? No WAY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I realize most /.-ers like myself who grew up on Atari 2600 may have trouble realizing that there are truly educational video games out there now on the interwebs. My kids play educational games online supervised by myself or spouse and it engages them in a way that classroom studies or a book cannot. It is not a substitute for those, but learning science, doing math, reading, etc have a whole new spin on them. I'm happy to say my son has not yet killed anything in a video game (other than maybe a germ).

    I agree with above: "Considering these kids are gonna be playing anyway, why not teach them to play right" TALK TO THEM ABOUT IT! Same goes for shooting a REAL gun, drugs, safe sex...

  57. Yeah.. by geekoid · · Score: 1

    ..So it's ok for a youth organization to teach how to fire a gun and promote kids taking up killing people for a living(military enlistment), but doing it in a video gamer is wrong?

    BSA has gone to pot.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Yeah.. by kramerd · · Score: 1

      Actually, BSA merit badges related to shooting requires professional training in weapon safety and an understanding of the basic engineering of those items. http://troop509.org/riflembsup.htm - Link to rifle shooting merit badge requirements (note - not part of cub scouts, who can earn a video game belt loop and pin). Absolutely nothing even remotely related to military enlistment.

      Quit being a troll.

  58. I like this because... by Desiderius · · Score: 1

    I've long believed anything that you do can be done passively or it can be done actively. Someone earlier complained that they might as well offer a badge in movie watching. I guess he thinks that's a bad thing. But I like the idea of offering badges for things kids are already doing specifically because the badges have requirements and those requirements cause you to consider what you're doing and put effort into doing it right.

    If this gaming badge was nothing more then a time sheet that gives a badge for X hours of gaming time it'd be worthless. But their requirement list is perfect: connect the gaming hobby to your family experience, research pricing at different stores instead of just bugging mom, and explaining what you're learning to your folks are all really good ideas and great practices to have.

    As a movie example I worked at Blockbuster all through college because I was a movie buff. So I read movie reviews, I sought out rare movies, took movie classes, held movie conversations with other knowledgeable people and risked seeing movies I didn't like (or that challenged me) to find movies that could surprise me.

    None of this is true of 95% of the people who walked into our store. They would not, under any condition, rent a movie they hadn't seen plastered on every billboard and bus in the city. They'd never, ever, rent a movie that wasn't in their native language or even starring people they didn't already know.

    That said, I'm not bitter or angry at them. Movies aren't their serious hobby, they just want a bit of escapism after a long day of work. I'm fine with that.

    What I am saying is this: one approach deserves a badge and the other does not.

    I, for one, respect the cub scouts for giving their members a reason to take aspects of their lives more seriously and their requirements are exactly right to meet that goal.

    Oh, and one other point: the purpose of badges is to have more than one. That gaming should be one hobby balanced among others is a fine lesson as well.

  59. As a former Cub Scout leader... by Necron69 · · Score: 1

    I would have welcomed this pin with open arms. Trying to keep the interest of 1st - 5th graders on anything at all is difficult, and Cub Scouts requires the active participation of parents too. I certainly would have had more luck with this material than the woodcraft or tool work, which I have little talent for. :)

    From what I can see, the focus of the pin is clearly on educating the kids about making better choices in video games, and on games that are educational. Looks like a win to me.

    For the record, my Cub Scout pack (and yes, it was MY pack in the late 70s and my son's in the late 90s) is not affiliated with or sponsored by any religious institution (other than perhaps the BSA itself). We had to pay rent to the elementary school where we met, just like anyone else.

    Necron69

  60. Not a big deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think before Dr. Vic Strasburger ("Hi everybody!" "Hi, Doctor Vic!") starts complaining, he should actually read the requirements for the badge.

    They're quite reasonable and emphasize parental involvement.

  61. Cub Scouts, not Boy Scouts. by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

    It's not a boy scout badge, it's a cub scout pin. Kids in the cub-scout age range run around and go crazy regardless of whether they have video games. (At least, everyone I knew who had video games at that age ran around and went crazy, too.) Nobody is going to get this pin who doesn't play videogames--it's going to be kids who play videogames already, and they're going to have to at least learn how much the games cost. It doesn't hurt anything and it requires them to learn something. And nobody will seriously take it as a status symbol.

    Sculpture, Theater, Cinematography, and Computers are all areas where someone might be interested in working in them one day, and one of the goals of the merit badge system is to introduce people to a wide range of areas. I only know any technical details about fingerprinting because I studied it one afternoon for a merit badge fifteen years ago--I get that knowledge forever, and there's nothing wrong with encouraging young men to learn things from a wide range of careers, activities, or knowledge. They recognize that some badges matter more than others to the scouting program, which is why you have eagle-required badges--but they also let people either earn something for the work they've put into an interest or for learning about a new potential field.

    I would certainly be concerned about a video game merit badge on the boy scout level--but at the cub scout level, where it's one of a hundred things that are *really* easy to "earn," and where it still requires you to actually do something, I'm not too concerned about it.

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
  62. riiiiight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I don't see anything wrong with that as long as they're not playing first-person shooter games, violent games, games with a lot of sexual or drug content." Soooo, in other words, NOT playing any video games.

  63. As I remember it.. by crossmr · · Score: 1

    When I was a boy scout.. 19 (ugh) years ago..
    there was a badge for computing.
    not specifically video games but they were tied in to it then.

  64. Re:Camping Danger? by conureman · · Score: 1

    I would assume the latter.
    We have some wooded land almost a hundred miles from a Grizzly Bear Sanctuary in B.C. I'm not necessarily a second-amendment crazy, but if I could only pack heat at one of the two places, I'd pick the theatre.

    --
    The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
  65. No big deal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Eh, belt loops and pins are achievements and are not tied into advancement very well. Some can be used in the various badges - Wolf, Bear, WEBLOS badges - but don't really add a lot. If you go back to the Boy Scouts in 1910, they had a Master at Arms merit badge that would really be a lot of fun today.

  66. Scouts is pre-military training by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    I was a scout and boy scout until I was allowed to quit. The whole process worked well on my father who ended up in 'nam.

    The scouts prep you for the boy scouts like the 1st years of elementary prep you for school life. Then in the scouts its all about getting you into that old-age view of manhood that also happens to be closely tied to military ways. I pointed this out while in the cub scouts, having been raised on the old WW2 era films my father loved; it fell on deaf ears. I will say that the most gun ho ones were the not the vets... the vets were more into camping, nature etc-- and to me it seemed somehow the other men were making up for something. Needless to say, we didn't do much of the fun stuff and instead focused on earning stupid badges and the military prep work. Earning stickers, stars, points, candy, symbols stopped working on me early I suppose...

    The scouts may have trouble getting with the times with internet and games distracting more youth; so they are trying to embrace it but I am far more skeptical and think of the recent words from some general who replied to the complaint that new recruits were too fat and out of shape: 'I don't care if they are fat as long as they can run a computer,' (paraphrasing.)

  67. warning: may cause violence by Eil · · Score: 1

    'I don't see anything wrong with that as long as they're not playing first-person shooter games, violent games, games with a lot of sexual or drug content.

    I guess that rules out Bastard Tetris.

  68. I think it is a good idea by G00F · · Score: 1

    It does fir with the times, as long as its only 1 badge.

    Heck, I would even invite cub/boy scouts over to game, and show them the value of team work, communication, and good sportsmanship

    I wish they would stress proper manors in gaming. Such as not griefing, playing for fun, not to own and that aspect since gaming now days is about multiplayer.

    --
    The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
  69. What's next? by hyades1 · · Score: 1

    No doubt the next badge will be awarded for evading the creepy Scout Leader during the weekend camp-out, with an added "Survival Under Extreme Conditions" Badge if Scoutmaster Roy brings along that priest he met on-line.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  70. Why not 1st person shooters? by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

    Originally, many of the merit badges applied directly to job skills, especially for sailors and farmers. Nowadays, knot-tying and welding are specialties. OTOH, as a US soldier, you can spend all day in a bunker in Nevada remote-piloting a drone in Afghanistan that can shoot rockets at Taliban leaders or innocent civilians. First person-shooter training is perfect for this new type of soldier.

  71. Re:3digits of f4il by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

    there's nothing hard about getting FP when you are a subscribefag... just ask ASS POS.

    Fags are on /b/. I am a subscriber nerd.

    BTW, what woke you up? Haven't seen your UID before.

    You must be new here.

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  72. Next merit badge...Bikini Awareness by zokula · · Score: 1

    This reminds me of the Bikini Awareness merit badge my buddy made up one summer camp. As part of the requirements, one would have to recognize all the different types of bikinis, make their own bikini, and write a report.