Windows Phone 7 Lacks Copy-and-Paste

theodp writes "In a behind-the-scenes look at Windows Phone 7 (photos), CNET's Ina Fried notes that Microsoft's new software has won early praise for breaking ground in some areas, but takes a step backward in others. In particular, it doesn't support features like copy and paste and multitasking that were already part of the old Windows Mobile. 'I think users use cut-copy-paste periodically,' said Microsoft exec Terry Myerson, '(but) there's other things they use more frequently.' Hey, tradeoffs had to be made — it was either copy-and-paste or Goo Splat."

Comments

Windows Phone 7 is great

[symbolset]

Rumor has it they're selling hundreds of the first Windows Phone 7 handsets, the Kin, each month. It's a runaway hit. With all these new choices they might launch that up into the thousands. Watch out Apple and Android, Microsoft is back in the mobile game and they're ready to rumble.

It is a very fine article - do read it. Apparently the compass doesn't work, but it's required on every device. That's going to make it hard to have a credible mapping application. It retains Windows CE at its core. The project leader's biggest hope is to "survive the launch," not amaze us with their brilliance.

This comment from the article was particularly insightful:

by peterpulmonary June 17, 2010 7:12 AM PDT the only reason to allow this type of exposure is to reduce expectations.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[adolf]

Here's your woosh:

*woosh*

You're welcome.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[moogied]

WHOOSH!

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[goombah99]

Hey laughed at windows 2.0 too.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[nwoolls]

The Kin is not Windows Phone 7

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

My favorite part is that they're desperately trying to recruit games developers, while not allowing those developers to use native code. No, instead they're forcing developers to rewrite their games from scratch with C# and XNA, a platform so successful, there have been literally hundreds of indie games released for the Xbox 360. I could either write my game with C/C++ and OpenGL ES and with minimal tweakage, release on the iPhone, iPad, and Android, the most popular and fastest growing mobile platforms capable of running real games. Or I can develop a game that will run only on a platform that has not yet been released and will almost certainly sell poorly. Hm. Tough choice.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[cbhacking]

Retaining a WinCE core doesn't mean that much, considering how much they've upgraded that kernel for WinPhone7. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing particularly good to say about either WinCE (as seen in WinMo phones) or WinPhone7, but I'm not going to go hunting for extra reasons to bash it either. A lot of the old restrictions that made WinCE suck are gone now, like the incredibly low per-process memory space, and it seems to do fairly well running devices like the ZuneHD (I don't have one, but I've played with a few and they appear to be quite solid devices with no obvious OS flaws; pity about the rendering engine, though).

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[rolfwind]

Huh?

What?

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

they're selling hundreds ... It's a runaway hit.

Huh?

My sarcasm, let me show you it.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[nacturation]

Here's your woosh:

*woosh*

You're welcome.

It sucks you had to type that in all by yourself given that you could've copied and pasted it from numerous other missed jokes on Slashdot.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Ethanol-fueled]

given that you could've copied and pasted it from numerous other missed jokes

Looks like he was using one of the Win Mobile 7 prototypes...

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's your woosh:

*woosh*

You're welcome.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[CarpetShark]

It retains Windows CE at its core. The project leader's biggest hope is to "survive the launch,"

Has anyone put out a contract on him yet?

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoken like a true Microsoft apologist. Compare a slightly better version to the original fucked up and broken version (all by the same wonderful vendor) and call it progress as if nothing else existed.

Heaven forbid you compare it to the competition head on.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

So, they are coming out with a phone that has 2 main differentiating factors.

1, it uses an OS that is based on the same one as their failed mp3 player. A failure, I might add, that enjoyed immense "grass roots" hype for months on end preceding its launch and now languishes at number 14 on the Amazon mp3 player bestseller list behind even the Sansa Clip. An OS that is also similar to the Kin phones that have not exactly lit the "feature phone without the features" category on fire and isn't looking likely to change soon.

2, The other differentiating characteristic of the Windows Phone 7 phones is that they lack even basic features that even the iPhone has had (cut and paste) or will have very shortly (multi-tasking). And they expect this thing to actually do anything in the marketplace?

Are there really that many XBox live afficionados out there that are dying to get the experience on their phones?

Oh, and before I forget, I remember having to scroll around on the display back in the eighties when the resolution was set at 1024x768 and the monitor only supported 800x600. It sucked then and it will suck now on this phone.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[jaylene_slide]

Eh?

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[oakgrove]

The native API is closed. You have to rewrite in Java,

This is false. See here.

which is why Ansroid is missing so many categories of software and why the overwhelming majority of Apple developers are Apple-only.

Also false. iPhone has more applications because it has been out longer and there are more people with iPhones who buy apps thus providing the incentive and momentum for more applications to get written. As Android continues to mature and grow, this may change.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[gig]

You still have to write Java apps. You're still running in a virtual machine. On iOS, 3rd party developers are running a full desktop class C toolkit, the same one Apple uses to create their apps and iOS itself.

> iPhone has more applications because it has been out longer

That is total BS and it's time for Android users to stop playing the "we're too new to be successful" card. iPhone did not have native apps until version 2, which shipped at the same time as Android, in mid-2008. The 3rd party app platforms on iPhone and Android are almost exactly the same age. Android lacks apps because of inherent problems with Android, not because it's too new. It's not just the number of apps, but the whole categories of apps that Android lacks.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[andymadigan]

There are whole categories of apps that the iPhone lacks too, like locale or foxyring-types, plus Google Voice, which I use for SMS and Voicemail. Honestly, I had the G1 and now I have a Droid, I haven't seen any of my friends with iPhones that have apps that don't exist on Android, what am I missing?

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[oakgrove]

You still have to write Java apps.

Which means what, exactly? What application can you write for iOS that you can't write for Android? There are many security and development advantages to writing apps in managed code and the NDK takes care of any performance issues. I fail to see the downside. I could see if there were a speed advantage to the iOS model but there isn't. For example, side by side, the Android browser in Froyo as running on a Nexus One has been demonstrated to be faster than the iPhone 3GS and the iPad despite the fact that they are both based on Webkit. So, where's the advantage?

That is total BS and it's time for Android users to stop playing the "we're too new to be successful" card.

Did you even read the rest of my comment or did you just stop right there? I'll just quote it for you:

and there are more people with iPhones who buy apps thus providing the incentive and momentum for more applications to get written. As Android continues to mature and grow, this may change.

Note the bolded points. I specifically point out that, A, more people have iPhones and, B, Android still has more maturing to do.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

From Wikipedia:

Native code
Libraries written in C and other languages can be compiled to ARM native code and installed using the Android Native Development Kit. Native classes can be called from Java code running under the Dalvik VM using the System.loadLibrary call, which is part of the standard Android Java classes.[87][88]
Complete applications can be compiled and installed using traditional development tools.[89] The ADB debugger gives a root shell under the Android Emulator which allows native ARM code to be uploaded and executed. ARM code can be compiled using GCC on a standard PC.[89] Running native code is complicated by the fact that Android uses a non-standard C library (known as Bionic). The underlying graphics device is available as a framebuffer at /dev/graphics/fb0.[90] The graphics library that Android uses to arbitrate and control access to this device is called the Skia Graphics Library (SGL), and it has been released under an open source license.[91] Skia has backends for both win32 and Cairo, allowing the development of cross-platform applications, and it is the graphics engine underlying the Google Chrome web browser.[92]

If I had been using Windows Phone 7 I would have had to retype all that text manually.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[socceroos]

...what am I missing?

You're missing die-hard fanboyism for Apple. Duh.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

*woosh*

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Cylix]

It's not like copy and paste was working before windows mobile 7 anyway. Trying to copy an address to the browser or other application can be painful. It's very much like the old X days of copy and pray.

I made the distinct mistake of quickly saving an address to an important location in one note mobile. Eventually, I wrote the address down on a sheet of paper and re-punched it into google maps. However, this isn't the only location where copy and paste foils all attempts at reason. I've encountered similar silliness with the wireless key fields.

I suppose just giving up was the easier route to go. I'm not really sure I really like the directions of WM7. Honestly, I think they should just get some of the guys who make custom roms and have them lead a few teams. It just doesn't seem as if those who are designing these interfaces and applications really have a passion for it. It's more akin to "let's find the most mass market appear trendy movement and poorly build a phone around it."

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

The downside as I see it, is that you have to use Java. Does the NDK provide code interop with the Java Android libraries? It can't, not without a C++/CLI-like bastard language derivation. That means, the purpose of the NDK is not to write fully native apps, but for managed bindings to native-written function libraries.

Java is a language with no future. No one likes it. In fact, it carries more hatred than even Perl. Many programmers refuse to even associate with it on principle, for fear they will be somehow tainted by its knowledge. And it was almost, almost dead at last. And Google had to go and make it popular all over again. It's a flashback to the year 2000.

I love the Android for the simple fact it runs on Linux. But I'll be damned if I will program for the Android. I'd rather sell a kidney than to touch Java. C++ is painful, but fun, especially in its template intricacies. Java is an abomination, to the eyes, and to the mind. It's a soulless corporate manifestation, the COBOL of the present, the programming language that no one willingly chooses to learn. DIAF.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[bertoelcon]

Spoken like a true Microsoft apologist. Compare a slightly better version to the original fucked up and broken version (all by the same wonderful vendor) and call it progress as if nothing else existed.

Heaven forbid you compare it to the competition head on.

Comparing Microsoft's mobile offerings to the competition is like comparing a "special" kid's grades with those of a Valedictorian.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

... and yours:

*woosh*

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

Close interaction with the Java API is necessary for most apps on Android. Hence no ports of apps that are doing cool stuff with Cocoa Touch and Core*. Not so for games. A small Java shim to set up the activity and pass along input events is about all you need. Oh, and audio is an issue too. Kinda strange that iOS supports OpenAL, but it's still a distant roadmap item for open-sourcey Android.

You'll see more cross-platform games as Android software and hardware improves. But it's already pretty good, definitely good enough to reuse the vast majority of your code if you're doing OpenGL ES. Which you really should; even 2D games benefit from GPU acceleration.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[oakgrove]

Java is an abomination, to the eyes, and to the mind. It's a soulless corporate manifestation, the COBOL of the present, the programming language that no one willingly chooses to learn. DIAF.

Well, that's cool. That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I don't personally share it but, listen, next time, could you tell us all what you really think?

P.S. Obviously, they were going for the sandboxed, managed code approach, particularly taking into account what they wanted to do with application lifecycles with the seamless killing and restarting of applications based on the the memory needs, etc. So, if you don't think Java was the tool for the job, what was? And don't even think about saying Mono.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[gmhowell]

Comparing Microsoft's mobile offerings to the competition is like comparing a "special" kid's grades with those of a Valedictorian.

If they're both applying for the same burger flipping job, why not compare them?

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[oakgrove]

How about... simple file management tools?

Want to store files on the Android? Oh wait, you can't. The only way to access files is through a rooted command-line interface. Or you can install a shoddy-quality, centralized, file manager.

Er, what? Astro file manager is very high quality and you can store as many files on /sdcard as you have space to hold. Furthermore, no you don't need to be root to access files on Android with a terminal emulator.

Want to open a downloaded image in Gallery? Sorry, you can't!

Complete bs. I just did the following on my Droid: Browsed to images.google.com, did a random search for kittens, clicked on an image for full size, long pressed it and selected "download", navigated to the download folder with Astro file manager, selected the kitten.jpg and it opened in gallery.

I'm not even going to bother quoting anymore of your rant except for this:

but I do have a Nexus One.

Have you even turned it on yet?

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets not forget, you can't run the windows phone 7 development environment within on a virtual machine. Simply put, the device emulator will not run up. I never install anything onto the base operating system except the means to install virtual machines. I don't think I'm alone trying to keep development environments separate.

The good news, Eclipse, Java SDK and Android SDK run perfectly within a virtual environment.

Since winmo won't allow native code nomo... I guess it is time to dump winmo ya know...

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[NeoStrider_BZK]

I work programming games for both, btw.

sure native apps on iPhone have the same age of *Android OS*, but not the same age of Android Native Apps.
And lets face it, you cant make good games in Java..and you end up with tons of crapware that bloat Apple's AppStore and inflate the numbers.
Now can we analyse it seriously and only look for good games. We will end up with more games at apple store, since not only its native apps have been out longer, but also becouse people tend to see AppStore as a more "selling" channel.

For example: Here in Brazil, you cant sell apps on the Android Marketplace, but this is enterily a political issue. (for the same reason, the AppStore in Brazil doesnt have the "Games" category, but only the "Entertainment" category. You can sell games without explicit Ministery of Justice classification - think of it as a more stupid ESRB rating)

In the end, its the same. Both you have to use goofy languages coating your C++ (ObjC and Java), both have great users experience (IMHO, I prefer Android) and nice development envirotments (but again IMHO Eclipse beats XCode badly - And Im a Netbeans fan!). Now compare this with Maemo (I've been a Maemo programmer since the first SDK release) and others. Their development enviroments completely scare less resilient programmers.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[NeoStrider_BZK]

Its just that Android has less crapware. Maybe because its not considered a serious plataform for selling games yet.
Android Market = Apple Appstore - gold rush

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

It's even easier than that. File download requests are an intent--you can register to handle downloads for certain types. Case in point: FBReader, the ebook reader I use. I point the browser to Project Gutenberg, grab an ebook in .epub format, and then the OS asks me what I want to use to handle the download. I say FBReader, and bam: my book is already there in the reader.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Hurricane78]

I could either write my game with C/C++ and OpenGL ES and with minimal tweakage, release on it Symbian/UIQ (50.3%) the most dominant platform running real games, and being blocked from the Apple (13.7%*) store for having a “evil word” in it.

Or I just write it in Java, giving me the ability to run it on every phone on the damn planet, except for the Apple and Microsoft lock-in-infected ones, while still having full speed because modern phones already support all the important APIs in Java (OpenGL ES, Multimedia APIs on the level of EAX HD, Location API, storage, etc) :)

Disclaimer: I’m a mobile phone game developer, and if you got a Apple or MS phone, that’s your own damn fault. (Although if you pay me a lot of money, I might use a trick to get them to run on your unlocked Apple phone. For Windows there in no JVM, last time I looked, so I can’t offer that there.

___
* US numberts

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Hurricane78]

You say that as if it were bad. First of all, the tiny bit of slowness you pay is for a lot of stability and security.
And second of all, except for the Apple and MS phones, all phones on the market run Java apps. So you instantly get them working everywhere. (No, having to add switches for cases of different APIs being available because of different hardware features, does not void “Write once, run everywhere.“.)
I think that’s a good deal.

But if you want, go ahead and re-invent the wheels of memory management, security and everything in your primitive old C/C++, and get a cracker to use your app to get into phones because you missed something anyway. ;)

I’m fed up with C/C++ coders acting as if it were so supreme to go against the basic rule of programming, to use libraries instead of writing things over and over, for a often only imaginary speed gain.
Also if you dare to bring the “more powerful language“ argument, I raise you Haskell with GHC, and wipe the floor with you! ;)

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[jonwil]

Anyone who thinks Java would have died if it wasnt for Android clearly hasn't worked in web development lately where some form of server-side Java such as J2EE (usually paired with an Oracle database) is a very popular choice.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[oakgrove]

Yeah, I know that and you know that. I was just giving the long drawn out version to the troll I was responding to up there.:)

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[shutdown -p now]

Does the NDK provide code interop with the Java Android libraries?

Yes, it does. Ever heard of JNI?

Not that you need it. The way you code a typical game in NDK, you have the entry point and event loop (for input processing) in Java, which calls into the rest of the game that's written in C/C++. The latter doesn't have to call into Java APIs anymore - it has input events passed to it already, and it can draw directly via OpenGL ES.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. Good luck finding J2EE on a shared web host plan. Java is dead when it comes to desktop programming, and it was dead when it comes to mobile development, and it is dead when it comes to non-enterprise web development. In fact, for pretty much anything non-enterprise or non-academic (read: anything a hobbyist/contractor might be into) calling Java dead was a fairly accurate assessment.

Isn't there some law that states corporate technology is always 15 years behind current times?

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that's the joke. Thanks for explaining it...

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

What nonsense. You don't write apps in C++ in Android. You write shared libraries (JNI). Nobody's using C++ to write large scale Android apps, the idea is asinine.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Xeno man]

They laughed at Windows Me, Vista and the Zune too. I guess they want to keep the joke going.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[pchan-]

For example, side by side, the Android browser in Froyo as running on a Nexus One has been demonstrated to be faster than the iPhone 3GS and the iPad despite the fact that they are both based on Webkit.

The Nexus One has a 1 GHz processor and 512 MB of RAM, whereas the 3GS has a 600 MHz (both ARM Cortex A8) and 256 MB of RAM. The fact that up until Froyo the browser didn't run faster should be quite embarrassing.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Z00L00K]

Except this time they are going backwards. Next version will have even less useful functionality making Windows 1.0 look good.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[imthesponge]

So people without money to spend don't use J2EE. Big deal.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Paradigma11]

The downside as I see it, is that you have to use Java. Does the NDK provide code interop with the Java Android libraries? It can't, not without a C++/CLI-like bastard language derivation. That means, the purpose of the NDK is not to write fully native apps, but for managed bindings to native-written function libraries.

Java is a language with no future. No one likes it. In fact, it carries more hatred than even Perl. Many programmers refuse to even associate with it on principle, for fear they will be somehow tainted by its knowledge. And it was almost, almost dead at last. And Google had to go and make it popular all over again. It's a flashback to the year 2000.

I love the Android for the simple fact it runs on Linux. But I'll be damned if I will program for the Android. I'd rather sell a kidney than to touch Java. C++ is painful, but fun, especially in its template intricacies. Java is an abomination, to the eyes, and to the mind. It's a soulless corporate manifestation, the COBOL of the present, the programming language that no one willingly chooses to learn. DIAF.

Well, then use Scala http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/scala-ide/Developing_for_Android or Clojure (tough there are significant performance penalties with clojure).

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[ozmanjusri]

Yes, that's the joke.

Actually, the joke's on everybody who really believes cut & paste will be missing.

This happens with every MS OS release. They'll make some controversial claim, like the non-negotiable startup sound in Vista, or the three-process limit in 7 netbook edition, then "reverse" the decision amongst grandiose statements like "We listen to our users!"

In a month or so, you'll see a marketing campaign based on "This is YOUR mobile OS"....

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[SharpFang]

Currently Android market share has overtaken Apple (very recently) so the situation may change soon.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[SharpFang]

Still, GP has a point. Astro is an awesome tool, but it's a 3rd party tool. The fact Android doesn't include any built-in, native file manager is a mistake and a shortcoming.

Yes, the philosophy of going the route "file manager -> file -> [intent] -> application" instead of traditional "application -> [open] -> file selector -> file" is acceptable and arguably superior but it requires a good file manager... which you have to find, download and install, instead of getting one out of the box.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

"Here's your woosh:

*woosh*

You're welcome."

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[GuldKalle]

Here's your woosh:

*woosh*

You're welcome.

Android, baby!

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[rpillala]

Actually there's no way for us to know whether he typed it by hand or copied and pasted it...by hand. This just goes to show that manual typing is virtually indistinguishable from copy-pasting! Looks like Myerson is right!

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[hattig]

Who cares about "shared web host" plans, when you can get a cheap virtual server these days and install Tomcat yourself? And then you can use a proper language and infrastructure for developing web applications instead of PHP. I'm a big fan of Java + PostgreSQL + Linux + Tomcat. Yeah, it's a bit harder than PHP and MySQL, but so much more fun.

Java wasn't dead with mobile development either, it was very much alive with J2ME games and apps. iPhone and Android killed that platform off though, I doubt much development is happening here these days.

The main problem with Android was that until Android 2.2, it was purely interpreted because it used it's own virtual machine.

As for desktop Java, the main issues people had with that were AWT and Swing, and Android doesn't provide these.

And as for "enterprise" development, when you see the abortions that .NET "developers" are creating, you will long for Java.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[stephanruby]

You still have to write Java apps. You're still running in a virtual machine.

I think you're confusing the Android Scripting Environment (ASE) with the Android Native Development Kit (NDK).

With the first, you can write Python, Perl, JRuby, Lua, Javascript, etc, that will translate down to Dalvyk bytecode, and with the second one, the Native Development Kit, you can write C and C++ that can bypass the Dalvyk VM entirely if you wish, starting from version 1.5 of the android development kit.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

The Kin is not a Windows Phone 7 phone,
it's a different platform.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[stephanruby]

> iPhone has more applications because it has been out longer

That is total BS and it's time for Android users to stop playing the "we're too new to be successful" card.

Yes, that's obviously what the previous poster really said. Nice straw man. You and I both know that the iPhone could have an infinite number of apps, and that wouldn't make it any more "successful" than it already is.

And the same goes for when the number of apps on the android market surpasses the number of apps on the iPhone. That might be a nice marketing milestone, but that won't be the defining moment for most users. The defining moment for Android users has actually already passed. We can already get classes of applications on Android that iPhone/iPad users couldn't even dream of getting. For instance, I can hook up my phone to my high definition TV and play High Definition TV content from it already without getting a DRM error telling me I'm not allowed to do that (because I'm not purchasing the actual content from iTunes).

I can already download, purchase, share, stream, record, trim, transform, music, voice mails, HD content, from my phone from almost any freaking where I want. And as to car navigation, by default I get state-of-the-art turn-by-turn car/walking navigation plus real-time traffic information already included all for free, while the normal iPhone user has to pay TomTom the equivalent price of a standalone gps unit just to get anything equivalent.

And don't get me started on the voice recognition features, that the iPhone crudely tries to confuse the user on through their me-too commercials. Sorry Apple, Text-to-Speech is not Speech-to-Text, not even by a long shot. And by the way, I'm not even speaking of English Speech-to-Text features. For instance, I've tested my Android device on my Japanese friends, and it picks up short language phrases in Japanese very well (even thought, Google Voice can't even do that yet, although it should, technically they should be using the same infrastructure to translate as to transcribe).

And what's up with calling the iPhone -- the "iPhone 4" when the previous models were called iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS. I don't think that most consumers realize that the new so-called iPhone 4 (that's not even out yet) does not/can not even support 4G yet.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent down, Android NDK is a joke, you need to call everything from Java and under that Java VM even with this so called "NDK". So at the end of the day, the only true performance and leading game platform is still the iPhone that allows native code (C/C++) and have well defined hardware, more importantly, no slow and terrible languages like Java or C# are being forced upon developers.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[stephanruby]

Still, GP has a point. Astro is an awesome tool, but it's a 3rd party tool. The fact Android doesn't include any built-in, native file manager is a mistake and a shortcoming.

Actually, not discounting your main point which is valid, the actual complaint of the GP must because he's using a non-default third party web browser. With the default web browser, on the Evo at least (which is 2.1, granted it's not the 2.2 that the Nexus was recently upgraded too, but it's pretty close), it directly saves the kitten image to the gallery in the 'All Downloads' album (I know, I just double-checked just to make sure).

The problem with third party web browsers is that some of them choose to save files in their own private sandbox area, and some of them choose to disable the saving feature unless you upgrade to their paid version. At least, I had that issue with the xScope web browser. xScope is by far the best web browser I've seen on any mobile platform, but since I didn't feel like paying for the full version, and I needed the occasional convenience of easily saving files -- I had to revert back to the default web browser that originally came with the phone.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[oakgrove]

Still, GP has a point. Astro is an awesome tool, but it's a 3rd party tool. The fact Android doesn't include any built-in, native file manager is a mistake and a shortcoming

True, there's no default file manager but it's very debatable whether that's a shortcoming to the target market. When you're trying to sell phones to the "Oh, shiny!" set, (and face it, that's always the real aim), do you really want to clutter the device? People like us that see value in a file manager are going to seek one out. Besides, we wouldn't be using the default anyway. I have yet to see a platform that has a decent built in tool. Explorer sucks, finder sucks, nautilus sucks. The only great file manager I've ever seen was Konqueror in kde3.

BTW, the quote above brought to you via cut and paste on my droid.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[oakgrove]

he Nexus One has a 1 GHz processor and 512 MB of RAM, whereas the 3GS has a 600 MHz(both ARM Cortex A8) and 256 MB of RAM. The fact that up until Froyo the browser didn't run faster should be quite embarrassing.

I'm not actually sure if it was slower before, it may not have been. However, it is definitely faster now. And the iPad has a 1 GHz proc running native code while the Nexus has the same yet runs jit compiled java. That seems a bit more of an embarassment to me.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[mdwh2]

And Google had to go and make it popular all over again. It's a flashback to the year 2000.

Java is used on about two billion phones. For most phones, it's the only language they use. Java was popular on phones long before Google decided to also use it for Android.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer C/C++ to Java. But it does have it's uses, in that we can have applications that run on all the different devices out there (e.g., Google Maps, Opera Mini). It's Apple who gave us a flashback to the 1980s by not supporting it, preferring the days when you had to rewrite your application separately for every different platform out there.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[mdwh2]

You make good points - this post shouldn't have been modded down.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

What's preventing the Java interpreter (or Python, etc.) from being recompiled to run on top of the iPhone? Do you mean not supporting it by providing Apple-sponsored Java interfaces?

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Anonymous Coward]

The phone I had before my iPhone ran Java software. It was all shit.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[mdwh2]

To be fair, this is how it is for the Iphone: "look, it now has copy/paste", "look, it now has 3G"; and now we have the same thing again with the fourth generation of Iphones, with the hype about multitasking and the non-low resolution. All of these things - and many more - were only improvements compared to previous Iphones.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[stephanruby]

What's preventing the Java interpreter (or Python, etc.) from being recompiled to run on top of the iPhone?

Steve Jobs is preventing it. Obviously, you haven't been paying attention to his latest edicts.

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[Hurricane78]

Well, maybe I sounded a bit aggressive. I was actually a bit angry at that moment. And Apple fanbois did the rest. ;)
Never underestimate religious people. They may be crazy, but they are still powerful!

Re:Windows Phone 7 is great

[adolf]

There is a way:

In fact, let me Google that for you.

iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[d_jedi]

Just sayin'..

Honestly, I don't understand why such a simple, useful feature could be missed by both companies..

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[awol]

My cynical side says that it's because neither want you to be able to "extract" content from the things you use your phone for and rather than design the feature thoroughly to encompass uncopyable elements they just went for the zero case.

To be fair, man problems in software come down to the zero, one or many case in terms of design and in the case of copy and paste, I can imagine that the full implementation of what they want copy to be is very complicated. Simpler just to make it always impossible to copy rather than to decide when it is right and wrong.

It's this kind of thing that just shits me about digital restricitons.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[bennomatic]

Yes, and Windows (and other non-Apple) fanbois eviscerated (verbally at least) Apple for not including it. Some of the same people (Paul Thurrott, I'm looking at you) are making all sorts of excuses for Microsoft not including it now.

Personally, I didn't really care much about cut and paste when I got my ipod touch; now that I have it, I like it. So for me, this is a big "whatever". But if you lambasted Apple for not having it but you want to excuse MS for not having it, you have some introspection to do.

Of course, I'm using "you" in the general sense; I am not accusing you personally, parent poster, of having done so.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[gyrogeerloose]

I don't understand why such a simple, useful feature could be missed by both companies..

Microsoft didn't "miss" anything. Being unable to innovate in any respect on it's own, it is trying to copy the the iPhone model as closely as it can--including leaving out copy-and-paste on it's first generation OS.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

FTA:

"We've got a good product," he said. " I actually do believe that. I think we are going to actually have a lot of happy customers."

It's doomed.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[arose]

are making all sorts of excuses for Microsoft not including it now.

It was stupid then and it's stupid now. I haven't seen many excuses yet.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Threni]

Ironic, given that cutting and pasting other companies innovative ideas is how both companies have done so well. Looks like Google is the company to give them both a bit of a kicking, though. (And I don't just mean that you can cut and paste using an Android phone).

Anyway, does anyone really care what Windows 7 mobile does? It's dead in the water, like the other non-iPhone/Android phones, surely? Who'd want to develop for that, especially since the bizarre decision to adopt Apple-like restrictions on development environments?

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Anonymous Coward]

They think they have envisaged all the possible cross-application sharings of information already. So you can just click on an address in a text message and the maps program will start automatically - things like that.

The problem is they have NOT envisaged everything. They cannot. Take an example: I want to copy and paste an entire text message converssation with a friend into an email to send to her for review. Trivial on Windows Mobile 6 devices.. I suspect impossible on any phone lacking copy & paste.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Anonymous Coward]

and now they do... and those silly apple users can actually say they have a feature that winmo doesnt.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had a smart phone for years, work in IT and have never ever needed to use copy and paste! I don't know why people worry about it so much???? It really is one of those, who gives a rats arse about it, features!!!!

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[gig]

The iPhone story is very different.

iPhone lacked copy/paste in its first couple of versions. In Windows Phone *7* we are seeing the devices lose a feature they already had in 6.

iPhone lacked copy/paste during a time when multitouch was extremely new and there were zero multitouch implementations of copy/paste. Windows Phone 7 is giving up the feature years later, when there are many phones with multitouch copy/paste.

iPhone is a consumer device, sold direct to iPod users. Windows Phone 7 is coming from a B2B company whose phones are sold as enterprise phones, phones you do work on.

When iPhone got copy/paste, it was the full-featured desktop copy/paste from OS X, finally exposed in the iOS interface in a very elegant way, across all of the apps, including over 100,000 native 3rd party apps. It was worth waiting for. Users were immediately highly productive with it and have forgotten it was ever missing. It works with complex data types. It has a speller built-in now. It runs on a full-size tablet now. When Microsoft brings this feature back, it will be as full of caveats as all of their stuff.

You can pick on various features of iPhone as being missing, but since they shipped their very first phone, overall they have been ahead of everyone else, leading the industry. Windows Phone 7 doesn't lead anything.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[gyrogeerloose]

I've had a smart phone for years, work in IT and have never ever needed to use copy and paste! I don't know why people worry about it so much

Pretty much the same thing here; in the entire time since Apple added copy/paste to the iPhone OS, I think I've used it maybe a dozen times tops. It's nice, but not essential.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice story and apologetic but bottom line, they still did not have copy and paste.

You can pick on various features of iPhone as being missing, but since they shipped their very first phone, overall they have been ahead of everyone else

Wow.. you must have never even looked at other smart phone offerings or read any kind of smart phone technology related information for at least 5 years before and since the iPhone was released if you really believe that statement. There were some firsts by the iPhone but not nearly as many as you believe. Enlighten us with some more unmeasurable and unprovable ways the iPhone is so much greater compared to others. Remember, unprovable is defined as "cannot be proved or verified by any test".

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[RedWizzard]

I've had a smart phone for years, work in IT and have never ever needed to use copy and paste! I don't know why people worry about it so much???? It really is one of those, who gives a rats arse about it, features!!!!

I've never used it either. Though I don't write emails on my phone. I can imagine that if you needed it one day and it wasn't there it'd be rather frustrating.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Anonymous Coward]

I had an iPhone for 2 years now, and I think I've used cut-n-paste once.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[shutdown -p now]

iPhone is a consumer device, sold direct to iPod users. Windows Phone 7 is coming from a B2B company whose phones are sold as enterprise phones, phones you do work on.

The whole point of WP7 is to change the brand image from "enterprise phone" to "consumer gadget". Why this must equal the silly copying of iPhone limitations, though, I do not know. The result is disheartening - on the bad side, it's got everything the geek hates iPhone for, and on the good side, there's only lack of one - because, well, it just isn't iPhone. Really, if someone asked me what the good parts of the platform are, I can think of awesome development tools (likely to be the best on the market even by the time of release), and nice UI theme. Which isn't all that much, come to think of it.

Personally, with every new bit of information released about WP7 and future iPhone directions, I'm really glad that I chose Android.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[TheLink]

> Take an example: I want to copy and paste an entire text message

Actually the tricky bit is if you only want to copy and paste PART of that message. It is often very important that someone else does not get the full message.

It's going to be hard to do that without a "copy and paste" feature and instead provide some sort of cross application magic.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Prof.Phreak]

Neither does Android. To this day. Yes, sure, you can cut and paste things where "they let you", but something stupidly simple like... say copying and pasting a UPS code from your email into a web-browser... is well beyond the capabilities of your Android phone.

-happy owner of NexusOne---hopefully they'll figure it out, eventually.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[bennomatic]

iPhone lacked copy/paste during a time when multitouch was extremely new and there were zero multitouch implementations of copy/paste. Windows Phone 7 is giving up the feature years later, when there are many phones with multitouch copy/paste

To be fair to Windows, I would guess that all the coolest ways to do multitouch copy/paste are heavily patent-encumbered. I'm sure that MS's engineers pitched a few ways that were shot down because they would either be too costly or because they totally sucked. Someone else suggested they're following Apple's model hoping to reap the same successes; but to be honest, maybe kudos to them for waiting to release a good method that's not directly "stealing" from Apple or Google or someone else.

And I put "stealing" in quotes because as much as I like Apple products, if I'm right about c/p being patent-protected, then I think that's kind of dick-ish.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[daver00]

While I agree with your criticisms of Microsoft it seems you are a bit misguided about Apples amazingness. When iPhone got copy/paste, it was not worth waiting for, I can assure you it did not take that long to come up with an elegant implementation of copy/paste, it took them that long to figure out users wanted it. That said copy/paste is a crippled feature without multitasking or at least task pausing. On my Android phone I can open up half a dozen apps and freely copy/paste between all of them, as yet this is still far more clumsy on the iPhone, yes 4 will change this but still. I don't even know what 'full featured desktop copy/paste' means without multitasking. Seriously think about that.

Now finally I disagree that Apple are currently leading the industry, the latest generation of Android handsets have leapfrogged iPhone, Froyo is at least a release cycle ahead of iOS4, the iPhone 4 catches up to where HTC and Samsung are at currently, with no doubt a half dozen new Android handsets due out by the end of the year. Apple has lost the lead, and the momentum is now with Android. Given the very slow release cycle Apple works on, I can't see them catching up again any time soon. They had their time in the sun, but its over now. the iPhone 4 has literally 2 features over my HTC Desire: it has slightly more pixels (960x640 @ 3.5" vs 800*480 @ 3.7"), and a front facing camera. Watch this video if you don't believe me that froyo has marched ahead of iOS by strides.

I like iPhones, they look nice, and I am very grateful that Apple pushed phone technology such that we are where we are today, we should all be thankful for their innovation and I honestly mean that. I do prefer the open, customisable environment that android offers, but more importantly I am very pleased to see this environment take the technological lead.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Anonymous Coward]

And I use it every 15 seconds! I guess the average AC uses copy/paste about once a day, then, based on this dataset!

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[perryizgr8]

You can pick on various features of iPhone as being missing, but since they shipped their very first phone, overall they have been ahead of everyone else, leading the industry.

are you dumb? the features iphone is going to get in some time (video call camera, decent camera, flash, etc) have been standard stuff on other phones for about 5 years. they are not leading the industry by any metric. still, even the to be released iphone does not have basic features like microsd card, usb mass storage, proper bluetooth support, etc which have again been standard in half-decade old phones.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm of the opinion that many of these smart phone os's are steps backward technologically. How long has copy paste been around? The early 70's? I'll bet it can't print either, something that has been around since computers had vacuum tubes.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[hattig]

Both companies have the same reason:

They have x development resource, y features to implement, and those x developers can only do n features per major release (where n y). Cut and Paste didn't make the cut for the initial iPhone OS. Same as why multitasking for general apps didn't appear until iOS 4.

Microsoft are three years behind the iPhone, so they're still at the initial development. Cut and Paste will come eventually.

Until it does, it will be compared directly to iOS 4 and Android 2.2, and it won't be able to compete in terms of features. The Windows Mobile crowd who were very vocal about cut and paste on the iPhone have gone very quiet (or are now iPhone users). In addition Microsoft have created an interface that looks like a cross between a grim hospital or austere sci-fi environment and the paintings of a ADD sufferer. How the general public will take to it will be interesting to see - there's a simplicity to the iPhone's app icons, or Android's widgets + app icons.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Anonymous Coward]

"some firsts"

Usable.
Intuitive.
Simple to develop for (200k apps for a reason).
Decent multi-touch interface that required going back to the drawing board to rethink everything about traditional user interfaces.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should read the definition of measurable and provable again.

1) Usable - opinion, unmeasurable
2) Intuitive - opinion, unmeasurable
3) Simple to develop for (200k apps for a reason) - opinion, unmeasurable
Is that a joke? There are far easier platforms to develop for that do not require fees, licences and restrictions and the software for them is 100% free and available without signing an agreement. The Apple store may provide a simple streamlined one size fits all path to potential profit for some people that is easier to get into but that is not the same as "easier to develop for". That streamlined path is a +1 and why there are so many apps but other companies have robust developer areas and support as well, have you ever actually looked at them? My guess is a big NO.

4) Decent multi-touch interface - opinion, unmeasurable
Required going back to the drawing board to rethink everything about traditional user interfaces. - +1, Multitouch is a first. That is one although every new device and any new functionality requires a new interface.

I would be willing to bet that 95% of those that claim the first 3 have never actually considered, used, or possibly never held a non Apple smartphone in their hand more than 2 minutes. I see it just in the people I know with an iPhone. They have never even heard of a single Nokia model smartphone and a few at least have heard of the Palm and a few Windows mobile models. For the developing.. 99.999% have never developed or will never develop an application for a smartphone.

Try again..
The iPhone hype got the general public on board to using smartphones and created a critical mass to keep it moving forward, this was not for technical measurable reasons.

Re:iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and Windows (and other non-Apple) fanbois eviscerated (verbally at least) Apple for not including it.

Apple fanbois said that if Steve, who knew that 64K was enough, said you did not need it then you did not need it. If it was a legitimate trade-off as Apple fanbois said then it is a legitimate trade off now.

True, and they caught shit for it

[Sycraft-fu]

However the real thing is that the old Windows mobile DID have these features. Apple I suppose has the excuse of "We couldn't figure it out because it was our first time making a mobile OS and all our smart people were too busy rolling around in piles of money," or something. However MS has a mobile OS out, right now, that can copy and paste and multitask.

So what the fuck? Do they think Apple succeeded because of those stupid restrictions? I'd guess they succeeded in spite of them, not because of them.

Doesn't matter, I'll happily stick with my Blackberry until my contract is up and then it is probably going to be another BB or an Android phone. I'll have to see, but if MS and Apple have the "You don't want to use your phone as a tool idea," well then my money will keep going to RIM, or maybe Google.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[cbhacking]

Windows Mobile and Windows Phone are completely different at the UI level. I mean, literally, as far as I can tell they may have thrown away everything above the WinCE kernel and core level. I'm not saying that excuses the lack of useful and important features, but it does explain why they might not have had time to implement them (because they were working on other stuff, and would have had to re-implement them from scratch) and makes the "But WinMo6 did it!" argument rather irrelevant.

I would say that somebody there seems a little too caught up in replicating even the mistakes of Apple's launch. As you point out, Apple did catch shit for those mistakes - it might not have cost the device its success, but it did cost them plenty of customers - and while they eventually added Copy/Paste, I'm still not buying any device which is effectively a handheld computer, but which lacks the ability to run more than one interactive application simultaneously.

I suppose that means I probably won't be buying a WinPhone7 device, either. In a way, this is disappointing - I was hoping to have more choice when the time came to upgrade my phone, choice is always good and I have no inherent objection to buying Microsoft products as long as they don't suck - but lacking such features pretty much means it sucks, regardless of what else it has, and that means I won't be buying one.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[JackAxe]

Apple's Newton had copy and paste back in the nineties, so they have no excuse IMO.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[Anonymous Coward]

After using the new iPad, I know why the 1st gen iPhones lacked copy and paste. It's freaking annoying. I can't figure out how to scroll down a web page without accidentally selecting a bunch of text for copy and paste, and then once it is accidentally selected how the hell do I un-select it? It's horrendous, and unlike the rest of the iPhone OS, it is completely unintuitive. Is there a way to turn the feature off?

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[fermion]

I'll happily stick with my Blackberry until my contract is up and then it is probably going to be another BB or an Android phone.

Exactly, MS is going to be competing for those customers who want an enterprise phone or a more open marketplace. That is blackberry and Android. If MS does not provide a superior smart phone experience, stating with the features already expected by users, they will not compete. Most people no longer buy something just because it has the MS logo on it. They will buy crap from Apple and Google instead.

MS seems to understand this when they made the Kin feature phone. Provide functionality to the end user, and have some success. Hell, if I was 20 and trying to get laid and party every night, I might by a Kin. The problem is, as mention, that Windows 7 is still trying to market to the corporate world, which uses blackberry, and there does not seem to be any reason to change.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[Anonymous Coward]

Either this is a really pathetic attempt at a troll, or you should just turn in your geek card. In order to enter the copy/paste mode, you have to double click a piece of text, or hold your finger in a spot (without moving it) for about a second. I find it very hard to believe you would enter this mode while scrolling unless your epileptic or unless you are scrolling web pages with your elbow. Try gentle swipes when moving a web page. This isn't a Storm phone. You don't need to hold down waiting for some response from the touch interface.

As to how to exit the mode, did you try clicking once anywhere on the page except for the 'COPY' popup button? You can also click once within the selected text, and it will turn it off as well. Once you enter the copy/paste mode, the only UI handles that matter are the edge selectors and the COPY button. Clicking once anywhere on the page that is not on one of those handles exits the mode. Anyone without about 5 seconds of experimenting could have figured this out. Yes Einstein, it's just that easy. I can see why you posted AC.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[samkass]

I'm still not buying any device which is effectively a handheld computer, but which lacks the ability to run more than one interactive application simultaneously.

So you seem to have very specific implementation-level requirement for the tools you use to do your work. Do you also require the software to use specific sorting algorithms and screen pixel representations? Wouldn't it be more effective to measure tools by task effectiveness?

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[NotBorg]

I have no inherent objection to buying Microsoft products as long as they don't suck

Well... that really narrows it down. You're talking about the keyboard they sell right?

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Either this is a really pathetic attempt at a troll, or you should just turn in your geek card.

What's weird about that is if he had replaced iPhone with "Palm Treo" he would have nicely described what using that phone was like.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[gig]

> I'm still not buying any device which is effectively a handheld computer, but which lacks the ability
> to run more than one interactive application simultaneously.

iPhone has never, ever lacked the ability to run more than one interactive application simultaneously.

You have always been able to talk on the phone while reading email or doing anything else. You have always been able to listen to music while surfing the Web or doing anything else. Email and texts are always arriving, no matter what you're doing. Since v2.0 you have been able to make an audio recording while doing anything else. The only limitation is you couldn't run 2 3rd party apps at once. That limitation goes away tomorrow (June 21, 2010) with the release of iOS v4.

If you are running a Blackberry and you think a switch to iPhone will give you fewer capabilities, you are sorely mistaken.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[Z34107]

Wouldn't it be more effective to measure tools by task effectiveness?

Like, say, if a tool can only do a single task at a time?

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[mhelander]

So first news saying Apple is richer than MS and now suddenly the Apple phones have copy paste but not the MS phones...

I knew I shouldn't have gone to sleep, I always suspected I might some day wake up in bizarro world :(

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[twidarkling]

No, the old Intellipoint mouse. That thing was gold-standard for optical mice.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[ekhben]

Sort of like the endless stream of touch-screen phones that launched in the wake of the iPhone, with vision-less product designers somehow thinking that it was touch alone that made the iPhone popular.

Except just copying the suck.

I expect next week we'll hear a leak about non-replaceable batteries.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[RulerOf]

No, the old Intellipoint mouse. That thing was gold-standard for optical mice.

That is probably the truest statement I've read *all* day. That mouse was the one that finally got me to switch from trackball back over to the normal style mouse. I used it for years until one day it would blink on and off while I was playing video games, constantly getting me killed. I replaced it with a Logitech and have been Logitech for years now.

After I was certain I'd never need the Intellimouse ever again, I cut the cord off of it, grabbed a baseball bat, and had my friend pitch it to me in my backyard. It was a home run, and we never did find every piece of the device.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[FlightlessParrot]

I really like the iPhone--it's replaced the Palm Tungsten and various smartphones and featurephones I've tried. But it is annoying that occasionally an attempt to scroll a page selects text instead. Yes, I know how to deselect, and yes, the wonderful digital (yok!YOK!) interface is necessarily a compromise, so sometimes also when scrolling a link-rich page you trigger one of the links, but it is, nonetheless, annoying. Sure, I'm 65, but I don't suffer from any other disabilities. But I guess you also get exasperated with n00bs who don't see how easy Linux is if they'll only learn to use the command line and edit a few config files.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[perryizgr8]

That limitation goes away tomorrow (June 21, 2010) with the release of iOS v4.

no, it doesn't. 3rd party apps can now do a SPECIFIC, defined-by-the-great-leader-himself task in the background. you still cannot have a bittorrent app downloading in the background while browsing on safari while your navigation app is running in the background saying "take the 8th exit".

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[mxh83]

You choose blackberry over an iphone and claim it's better? LOL! Nah, you're just cheap, that's what it is.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[inigopete]

That's a shame - those mice tended to eventually suffer problems with the cord where it entered the mouse casing. They're really easy to fix (remove the pads off the bottom and undo the four screws, find faulty wire, repair). I'm still using mine. Great mouse.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[hattig]

With iOS 4, you can browse on Safari whilst your navigation app runs in the background (location based multitasking is one of the options Apple provides). I don't want to be near you when you're driving and being distracted by whatever porn site you are viewing, but you should be able to do this.

Why would I care about bittorrent on the phone - I'd rather access my home computer and initiate it there, instead of getting a massive hit on my mobile data usage? If it's a short download, the iPhone has an option for that as well.

It would be nice if iOS 4 had a "if power is connected, allow to run in the background regardless of the type of multitasking required" function.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[perryizgr8]

Why would I care about bittorrent on the phone - I'd rather access my home computer and initiate it there, instead of getting a massive hit on my mobile data usage?

i thought there was this tiny little insignificant piece of tech called wlan?

With iOS 4, you can browse on Safari whilst your navigation app runs in the background (location based multitasking is one of the options Apple provides). I don't want to be near you when you're driving and being distracted by whatever porn site you are viewing, but you should be able to do this.

nice bit of trollish assumptions there. yes, there is a specific category allowing for background audio as well. so i was wrong about this one.
but still, it seems to me that this selective shit should not be called multitasking. in a properly multitasked system, any program can run in the background and do whatever it wants, not just do things included in a list:

Background audio and VoIP
Background location
Location notifications
Push notifications

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[rhsanborn]

Blackberry still holds the lion's share in the enterprise, but I don't think it's at the exclusion of the iPhone anymore. I've seen, in my business interactions, many more iPhones popping up. They are becoming just as useful for road warriors (sans the amazing keyboards...) as the Blackberry, plus they aren't as clunky (read big) and can do other neat and interesting things.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[DJRumpy]

I've found that even clicking on a link while trying to scroll, if you move the web page any substantial amount (say more than 20 pixels or so), it will simply ignore the link and scroll the page instead which is a good solution on a touch interface.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[Anonymous Coward]

obviously you have never used an iPhone. just played with one at the shop.

Otherwise you'd know that your statement "You don't want to use your phone as a tool idea," is one of ignorance.
Nothing wrong with a BB, mind you, you're statement is wrong.

Re:True, and they caught shit for it

[RulerOf]

With mine, the USB connection itself was fine. Wiring hadn't gone in spite of its age.

The issues I experienced were quite literally a firmware or chipset issue in the mouse itself. Kind of like CD/DVD burners. They just die after a time for seemingly no reason. Such is life! :D

Windows button

[Beardydog]

I know the iPhone has an enormous Apple logo on the back, but:
1) It's not and enormous Apple logo on the front
2) Some people think Apple is cool

The Windows logo instantly makes me feel like I'm at work. Seeing it on the front of my phone everytime I pick it up would sap a tiny percentage of the joy from my day everytime I picked the thing up. And why? For branding? They can't just put a stylized picture of a house, or a rounded square ( I've never heard of anyone being confused by the non-specific design on the iPhone's ONLY BUTTON )... a circle... a triangle... Maybe no icon at all!
I want my technology to look like it was sent from an alient future, or dug up from an alien past... with mystic runes and shit.
After Mickey Mouse, the Windows logo is the least mystical goddamn rune on earth.

Re:Windows button

[Anonymous Coward]

I know the iPhone has an enormous Apple logo on the back, but:
1) It's not and enormous Apple logo on the front
2) Some people think Apple is cool

The Windows logo instantly makes me feel like I'm at work. Seeing it on the front of my phone everytime I pick it up would sap a tiny percentage of the joy from my day everytime I picked the thing up. And why? For branding? [...]

How do you feel about that Apple logo (or two) on your keyboard? How about the upper left corner of your screen?

[...] I've never heard of anyone being confused by the non-specific design on the iPhone's ONLY BUTTON [...]

I've never heard of anyone complaining about a logo design on a button, either. Until now, at least.

Re:Windows button

[Anonymous Coward]

If I disagree with a post, I moderate it down.

You are in big trouble next time I have mod points.

Re:Windows button

[Anonymous Coward]

The Windows logo instantly makes me feel like I'm at work. Seeing it on the front of my phone everytime I pick it up would sap a tiny percentage of the joy from my day everytime I picked the thing up. And why? For branding? They can't just put a stylized picture of a house, or a rounded square ( I've never heard of anyone being confused by the non-specific design on the iPhone's ONLY BUTTON )... a circle... a triangle... Maybe no icon at all! I want my technology to look like it was sent from an alient future, or dug up from an alien past... with mystic runes and shit. After Mickey Mouse, the Windows logo is the least mystical goddamn rune on earth.

Your inner monologue is so interesting to the rest of us.

Thanks for quoting it!

Re:Windows button

[Svippy]

How do you feel about that Apple logo (or two) on your keyboard? How about the upper left corner of your screen?

There is no Apple logo on the keyboards any more. But since there is only one button on the iPhone or this Windows Phone thingie, he wonders why they made that decision. On a keyboard or in the upper left corner of your screen, it is supposed to make it out among many buttons. There it makes sense. Or are you just trolling?

Re:Windows button

[node 3]

How do you feel about that Apple logo (or two) on your keyboard? How about the upper left corner of your screen?

Mac keyboards don't have Apple keys anymore. And the one on the screen is the icon you click on, just like the Windows button. The physical button on Windows phones doesn't benefit by having a Windows icon in the way the button on Windows 7 does. Think about how tacky it would be were the home button to have an Apple logo on it.

Re:Windows button

[vlueboy]

I want my technology to look like it was sent from an alient future, or dug up from an alien past... with mystic runes and shit.

Awesome! you could put that in your sig. I don't care if it isn't even on /. It's just that insightful.

Re:Windows button

[Anonymous Coward]

I think what happened was MS bought iPhone OS 1.0 and had been spending the last year reskinning the startup page.

Re:Windows button

[MoreDruid]

two words: Coca-Cola

Brave but Pointless

[Nerdfest]

I'm not sure where MS thinks they're heading with Windows Phone 7. Their only advantage with WM6 was that it was actually an open platform ... you could install applications from any source. From a usability point of view, it sucks, and I say that as a current user. It is not really intended to be used without a stylus, it's slow, and it's generally not very intuitive. It seems that they're dropping their only feature, adopting the early failures of Apple (cut & paste), and heading towards what most people dislike about the iPhone (single marketplace).

Maybe their doing what Linus Torvalds did with Git, in reversing every decision that CVS made, but I don't think it's going to end well for them. Between iPhone and Android, they're beat in almost every feature.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Brett Buck]

I'm not sure where MS thinks they're heading with Windows Phone 7.

        Targeting the Zune market?

Re:Brave but Pointless

[node 3]

and heading towards what most people dislike about the iPhone (single marketplace)

I don't think "most people dislike" this, Nerdfest. I realize it's a fairly common sentiment here on Slashdot, but most people have different priorities.

Maybe their doing what Linus Torvalds did with Git, in reversing every decision that CVS made

The thing is, Microsoft just isn't that talented. I don't mean they don't have talented employees, but that the way the company works, talent just doesn't enter into it. What they do, what they've always done, is copy what others have done, and unlike Apple who, when they copy they make things better (that's what "good artists copy, great artists steal" means), MS copies poorly. The first few iterations are atrocious. But eventually they copy things so thoroughly that, what the hell, it's good enough, right?

Technologically, MS has always been behind the curve. Macs, Amigas, OS/2. All made Windows (and DOS!) look pathetic. But price and hardware support, along with some horrible, but effective, business tactics won out.

And it looks like MS is trying the same here, but without the ability to engage in the same old business tactics, and without the sort of market where price and hardware support is as important as it was during the PC era. So, like you said, I just don't see how this will work out well for them. They can't out-class iPhone, or out-geek Android, and they can't tie their monopoly to it.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. MS has a way of sticking around with technically inferior offerings. It's like a gambler with enough money to keep doubling down. You don't have to win right away, you just have to win somewhere along the line. MS doesn't have the burden of caring about whether their products are good, they just want them to sell, and they have the money and the will to stick around until they do. They'll keep "reinventing" their products (WinCE to Windows Mobile to Windows Phone 7, with Zune and Kin thrown in for good measure) until something sticks.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[UnknowingFool]

What all 7 of them?

Re:Brave but Pointless

[asdf7890]

It seems that they're dropping their only feature, adopting the early failures of Apple (cut & paste), and heading towards what most people dislike about the iPhone (single marketplace).

Perhaps they are not making enough profit for their liking from following the open route, and would like to try nickel-and-dime a new revenue stream out of phone users and the developers.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

Zune what?

Re:Brave but Pointless

[gig]

They're just doing what they always do: they're copying Apple/NeXT. However, Microsoft didn't adjust when Steve Jobs came back to Apple.

It was productive for Microsoft to copy the 1985-1996 Apple that tried to sell to businesses and made drab interfaces and drab boxes and kept their prices high and hardly pushed the technology forward. Microsoft could keep up because Apple was slow, they were safe copying stuff whole because Apple was weak and they had even accidentally given Microsoft a license to clone their API, and the copies Microsoft created were drab enough for their PC maker customers and corporate CTO's to like them.

It's not productive for Microsoft to copy the 1997-present Apple for all the opposite reasons. Apple sells direct to consumers now, even to the point where 1 out of every 3 Apple employees is in retail. Zune can't compete with iPod on price or features. The $99 iPhone is so cheap there's no room under there for a profitable clone. The Intel Mac erased the high-end Windows PC market from existence. The iPad is killing the low-end PC market. The products are sexy and colorful and way beyond the capabilities of Microsoft's PC maker customers to compete with.

Windows Vista/7 was "Windows for Mac users". It's not at all what the PC makers wanted, or the CTO's wanted, or the corporate trainers wanted, and so on. Windows Phone 7 is "Windows Mobile for iPhone users." Microsoft continue to sit on a pile of money from their 2001/2003 products that were copied from the old Apple in the case of Windows XP, or ported from the old Apple system in the case of MS Office 2003.

Plus, technology is moving faster now, and the Internet provides everyone with the latest information on the state-of-the-art, and Apple Stores just make it even worse. You can't pretend Windows Vista/7 is not 10 years behind the Mac. You can't pretend that Windows Phone 7 is not 5 years behind iPhone. People have seen the Apple Store, they've tried the products.

I've personally seen more Windows XP to iPad upgrades than Windows XP to Vista/7, so good riddance to Microsoft. People can get the original item cheap now rather than wait for the Microsoft copy. My iPad already paid for itself. I'm drinking the milkshake of anybody who is waiting around for the Microsoft version. I've been using Mac OS X for 10 years, I've been drinking the milkshake of XP users the whole damn time. I've had a fully usable, full desktop browser in my front jeans pocket for 3 years, the whole time drinking the milkshake of other phone users.

So no, Microsoft's products don't make sense anymore.

> Their only advantage with WM6 was that it was actually an open platform ... you could install applications from any source

Not a feature. That's a malware vector. That's something businesses will have to lock down and consumers will have to patrol. Neither of them wants to do that.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree that Microsoft has always been behind Apple. For an easy, specific example, Microsoft had a modern operating system in Windows NT/2000, with protected memory and pre-emptive multitasking for long before OS X came out. Apple was the last of the major server/desktop operating system vendors to have a modern OS.

Not only did Apple copy from everyone else in features, they literally copied NeXT and Mach into the OS, KHTML into the browser and GCC into the developer tools. This is a great thing, I see nothing wrong with this, but it is wrong to exclude Apple from copying of playing catch-up.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Vancorps]

You've been in Steve's reality distortion field too long. If I didn't know better I'd say this was fark. Are you really trying to say that Windows 2000,XP were clones of OS 8 and 9? Cause MacOS 8 and 9 were atrocious causing instabilities everywhere, they couldn't even handle running out of disk space. The iPad is already a clone of other tablets, specifically the Archos Internet tablet which has been on the market for over a year and ran Windows XP and now runs Windows 7.

You give Apple way too much credit, I'm not saying Microsoft deserves any but you portray a woefully inaccurate picture of the landscape. There is no one genuinely trading a Windows XP machine for an iPad. They target fundamentally different markets and have different strengths and weaknesses. The iPad has cost me many hours of lost time and has cost my users many lost hours of productivity as they encounter it's limitations. It's so heavy I can't imagine wanting to read an entire book on it. It's pretty well limited to consuming content which is precisely what it is marketed as. It makes no attempt at content creation which is why it doesn't even include a camera or SD card slot or USB.

When it comes to mobile phones the iPhone was again nothing of a first besides the multi-touch UI. Apple's strength has been in presentation and marketing which is precisely what Microsoft used to be good at. There's no arguing that the strategy leads to business success at the cost of consumer freedom. Those of us that learned our lesson have headed for Android because we are given back the full abilities of our increasingly useful mobile hardware. I also laugh at you considering the iPhone having a full desktop browser. While it is a good browser the lack of flash makes that statement laughable at best and completely disingenuous at worst. My Android phone in contrast has a more full desktop browser but lacks functionality like adblock that I enjoy in my actual desktop browsing. It also has flash and full java capability unlike the iPhone.

As for an open platform being a malware vector I again laugh at your distorted view of reality. As a Windows mobile user and administrator for the better part of the last decade I can assure you that malware on Windows Mobile is few and far between, so few that I've never encountered it although I've certainly read about duped users but Windows mobile since 5.0 has had centrally managed software and full multi-user controls, things the iPhone even with version 4 still lacks. The iPhone makes a half decent toy but even the camera on my Samsung Moment blows the iPhone out of the water and that was Samsung's first attempt at an Android phone. Android lacks the centrally managed functionality that Windows Mobile and Blackberry has so it still has some catching up to do but development is moving quickly as my phone came with Android 1.5 and now has 2.1 which was a significant jump. Exchange support is great now even supporting remote wipe with 2.1. Of course the locks also work unlike the iPhone as shown by the latest version of Ubuntu.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[node 3]

I disagree that Microsoft has always been behind Apple.

I never said they were.

Not only did Apple copy from everyone else in features

I never said they didn't.

they literally copied NeXT and Mach into the OS

No. Mac OS X is Nextstep.

KHTML into the browser

WebKit is based on KHTML. But this is both a.) not what I mean by copying above and b.) exactly the sort of thing open source is meant for.

This is a great thing, I see nothing wrong with this

I never said there was. In fact, I stated quite the opposite. See below.

but it is wrong to exclude Apple from copying of playing catch-up.

It's even more wrong to think that's what I did.

Perhaps you missed this part of my post?

"unlike Apple who, when they copy they make things better (that's what "good artists copy, great artists steal" means)"

Re:Brave but Pointless

[shutdown -p now]

Not a feature. That's a malware vector. That's something businesses will have to lock down

Windows Mobile phones were probably the single most popular platform for in-house "enterprise" mobile apps, precisely because it was open.

If you read WP7 forums, there are a lot of angry posts along the lines of "we have a great working data entry system running on WM6 devices in our company, and now we can't even rewrite that for WP7 from scratch, because it has too many limitations", coming from all those people.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[mjwx]

The $99 iPhone is so cheap there's no room under there for a profitable clone.

You're missing two digits...

And you're wrong.

The $1099 is so expensive there is plenty of room for profitable clones. I've literally seen hundreds lined up in a stall in Bangkok.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm drinking the milkshake of anybody who is waiting around for the Microsoft version.

I've been drinking the milkshake of XP users the whole damn time.

the whole time drinking the milkshake of other phone users.

What does this even mean? Their milkshake brought you to the yard?

Not a feature. That's a malware vector. That's something businesses will have to lock down and consumers will have to patrol. Neither of them wants to do that.

Tell me, how are applications (oh sorry, "Apps(tm)"! "Available on the App Store(tm)!") checked for malware by Apple? By magical robots that can immediately tell OMG BAD SOFTWAREZ from the next fart app?

No. By humans.

Have you ever met an infallible human? Do you think any exist?

This fanboi tendency to claim that "Apple checks all the Apps(tm) so it's OK!" is going to bite Apple really, really hard in the ass on the day when some malware gets through. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow. But one day. And on that day, Apple's horde of "I can install anything! There's no malware on MY platform! La la la la!" users are going to learn an important lesson about computer security.

Personally, *I* want to be able to choose *whatever* software I want to install on my device, and I don't want Steve Jobs saying "no, Daddy Knows Best, you're not allowed to see Buck Mulligan's stately, plump cartoon penis. Silly adult, iPhones are for kids!". You consider this a "malware vector"; I, all the Android phone owners who could still get Tetris after it was taken down from the Android Marketplace, and all Maemo/Meego/WinMo6 phone users consider it a feature.

How about the fact that it took several years for Opera to appear on the iPhone, because it competed with Safari so Apple wouldn't let it through? It's OK with you that Apple doesn't acknowledge the concept of a "level playing field", is it? You like the lack of competition? Of course, competition doesn't drive improvement, does it? I mean, look how much IE improved before they had to compete with Firefox... oh, wait.

It sounds more like you've been drinking Kool-Aid than milkshake to me.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

> I'm drinking the milkshake of anybody who is waiting around for the Microsoft version. I've been using Mac OS X
> for 10 years, I've been drinking the milkshake of XP users the whole damn time. I've had a fully usable, full
> desktop browser in my front jeans pocket for 3 years, the whole time drinking the milkshake of other phone users.

Milkshake? It sounds more like you've been drinking Steve's Koolaide for that whole time.

> You can't pretend Windows Vista/7 is not 10 years behind the Mac.

I'm not a big Windows fan. But Macs are not 10 years ahead of Windows 7, which is a decently usable OS. What feature of MacOS is a whole decade ahead of what's in Windows 7? I really want to know.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

You sure seem to drink a lot of milkshakes, sir.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Com2Kid]

I'm not sure where MS thinks they're heading with Windows Phone 7.

Awesome revolutionary UX, stringently enforced hardware and performance standards (so you don't end up like Android with some devices kicking butt and others sucking) and a variety of form factors for customers to choose from.

Sounds like enough to make a great product to me.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

What feature of MacOS is a whole decade ahead of what's in Windows 7?

The shell.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you. MS won the PC business because he could sell millions and millions of licenses on the PC boom era, so they had a cost advantage over everyone else.

Now it is Apple who is selling millions of ipods ,touch or not, and iphones and iPad and getting the tremendous cost advantage of mass producing hardware and selling from Apple Stores(+1000B$ of revenue).

Re:Brave but Pointless

[MemoryDragon]

You have to add here, that back in Microsofts heydey lots of people were exposed as to PCs as their only alternative they did not even know that superior alternatives did exist (how many people did know macs when Windows 3.0 came out, I bet not too many those who did stuck to their macs)

This time the game is totally different, people have been exposed to the iPhone and Android and other alternative in masses, and there is no real benefit of the Windows monopoly they can leverage that people would flock to something inferior. They have to compete by being better and that wont work out as long as they copy Apple and Android and combine the worst issues iOS1 and Android 1.0 had and adding to that some shoddy stuff of their own (like again some garbage ie implementation a decade behind webkit used by iOS and Android)

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Deviate_X]

Meh ... Google will send you apple fanbois back to 2001 - angry and resentful ... uh! wait

and heading towards what most people dislike about the iPhone (single marketplace)

I don't think "most people dislike" this, Nerdfest. I realize it's a fairly common sentiment here on Slashdot, but most people have different priorities.

Maybe their doing what Linus Torvalds did with Git, in reversing every decision that CVS made

The thing is, Microsoft just isn't that talented. I don't mean they don't have talented employees, but that the way the company works, talent just doesn't enter into it. What they do, what they've always done, is copy what others have done, and unlike Apple who, when they copy they make things better (that's what "good artists copy, great artists steal" means), MS copies poorly. The first few iterations are atrocious. But eventually they copy things so thoroughly that, what the hell, it's good enough, right?

Technologically, MS has always been behind the curve. Macs, Amigas, OS/2. All made Windows (and DOS!) look pathetic. But price and hardware support, along with some horrible, but effective, business tactics won out.

And it looks like MS is trying the same here, but without the ability to engage in the same old business tactics, and without the sort of market where price and hardware support is as important as it was during the PC era. So, like you said, I just don't see how this will work out well for them. They can't out-class iPhone, or out-geek Android, and they can't tie their monopoly to it.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. MS has a way of sticking around with technically inferior offerings. It's like a gambler with enough money to keep doubling down. You don't have to win right away, you just have to win somewhere along the line. MS doesn't have the burden of caring about whether their products are good, they just want them to sell, and they have the money and the will to stick around until they do. They'll keep "reinventing" their products (WinCE to Windows Mobile to Windows Phone 7, with Zune and Kin thrown in for good measure) until something sticks.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Deviate_X]

"Windows for Mac users" - isn't that called boot camp?

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Just Some Guy]

I've had a fully usable, full desktop browser in my front jeans pocket for 3 years,

I thought you were just happy to see us.

the whole time drinking the milkshake of other phone users.

That's what she said!

Re:Brave but Pointless

[wbo]

Windows Phone 7 is not designed to replace Windows Mobile 6.5 for all devices. I think Microsoft is designing Windows Phone 7 to to be used on low-end smartphones for consumers who may have never used a smartphone before.

The successor for Windows Mobile 6.5 is Windows Embedded Handheld which is backwards compatible with many Windows Mobile 6.x applications and is supposed to be able to run on many devices that currently run Windows Mobile 6.x. Windows Embedded Handheld is designed for high-end smartphones and enterprise/corporate devices just like Windows Mobile 6.5 was and I will be very surprised if it doesn't include basic productivity features like copy and paste.

Re:Brave but Pointless

[Anonymous Coward]

>

Not a feature. That's a malware vector. That's something businesses will have to lock down and consumers will have to patrol. Neither of them wants to do that.

Wow, thanks for opening my eyes! Would someone please remove this malware vector from my PC? I feel so exposed!

Re:Brave but Pointless

[allanc]

It's like a gambler with enough money to keep doubling down. You don't have to win right away, you just have to win somewhere along the line.

Of course, as anyone who's tries this tactic in real life will tell you, you'll always get to that point where you've had so many losses in a row that you don't have enough money to double down again. It's starting to look like Microsoft has hit that point.

(Metaphorically speaking, I mean. They've still got boatloads of non-metaphorical cash, as I recall)

Re:Brave but Pointless

[IorDMUX]

I don't think "most people dislike" this, Nerdfest.

Wait... did you just ad-hom him, or were your calling him by his nickname?

Pirates!

[sakdoctor]

Copy & paste is a tool of pirates and plagiarists. There is no legitimate use for Copy & paste.

Re:Pirates!

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally, freedom from a clipboard!

Re:Pirates!

[Anonymous Coward]

And Clippy!!!

Re:Pirates!

[value_added]

Finally, freedom from a clipboard!

Viva la raza!

Oh, wait ... is using a clipboard like yanking into a named buffer?

Re:Pirates!

[machine321]

And you wonder why you don't have a girlfriend when you call her a "named buffer".

Re:Pirates!

[Anonymous Coward]

Copy & paste is a tool of pirates and plagiarists. There is no legitimate use for Copy & paste...

Re:Pirates!

[value_added]

And you wonder why you don't have a girlfriend when you call her a "named buffer".

Fucking hell. I made the original joke, it's far wittier than your follow-up retort, but you get modded up? ;-)

Ok, I'll come in again.

• The yanking she had no problem with (she knew I was a regular Vi-agra user). It was what came after that "put" her off.
• When we first met, though, it was love at first sight. Both of us were more interested in an ESC than CTRL-ing each other.
• She said I didn't know how to use her middle mouse button. I told her to leave my cursor alone.
• I saved my best lines for her, but she exited before saving.
• Next time, I'll be sure to get a virtual girlfriend, instead. First sign of a memory problem, I'll swap her ass to disk.

They need to get the DRM working

[Anonymous Coward]

...and provision the authentication servers before they can insure that only non-copyrighted phrases can be copied/pasted.

Swing and a miss

[anarking]

Just as windows mobile was catching up being coupled with Sense UI and the like, they go and join the worthless herd of App-based feature-less mobile OS'es. The thing is, as far as mobile OS'es go, windows mobile has been ahead, being an open platform and close to an actual OS. And there is a marketplace for apps on the phones anyways. 7 becomes worthless, and 6.5 will go on and on being used and modded by power users for years to come because it's the last of the useful mobile OS'es. Long live task manager. :P

Re:Swing and a miss

[Bigjeff5]

I don't see what Windows Mobile can do that Android can't, and Android generally makes it a lot easier to do on the phone form factor.

I'd like to say the same for Apple, but they're so closed I can't, in good conscience.

Furthermore, I don't think you understand the purpose of an operating system, particularly given this comment:

...and close to an actual OS.

Re:Swing and a miss

[node 3]

Just as windows mobile was catching up being coupled with Sense UI and the like, they go and join the worthless herd of App-based feature-less mobile OS'es.

"Worthless herd"? iPhone and, to a lesser extent, Android, are where it's at. The old-style Windows Mobile is about as appealing today as a tape-playing Walkman.

The thing is, as far as mobile OS'es go, windows mobile has been ahead, being an open platform and close to an actual OS.

"Ahead"? Ahead of Palm, technologically, and ahead of Apple and Google in terms of timeline where they entered the market. But that's pretty much it. As for being "close to an actual OS", iOS is OS X. Android is Linux with (essentially) a custom windowing system. Windows Mobile is much further from Windows than either iOS or Android are to their respective desktop counterparts.

7 becomes worthless

I agree. It can't outclass iPhone or out-geek Android. In a word, worthless.

and 6.5 will go on and on being used and modded by power users for years to come

I didn't realize "power users" meant "a dwindling niche of users stuck in the past". I'll remember that for the next Amiga or Newton story on Slashdot. They abound with "power users" extraordinaire!

because it's the last of the useful mobile OS'es. Long live task manager. :P

POWER USER!!!!

Re:Swing and a miss

[BasilBrush]

Your post makes no sense. Both Symbian and Android are as open (or more open) than WinMo =6.5 is. And they both also have bigger market share.

Re:Swing and a miss

[coryking]

Why would anybody want a task manager on their phone? Task managers exist to weed out shitty software and kill them. Basically, they are a way to maintain a complex system.

The thing about complexity is people pay good money to hide it. Who wants to buy a phone that requires such levels of fiddling that it requires a task manager? Is your time so worthless to you that you enjoy seeing every damn thing running on your phone?

Any phone that has a task manager (outside of some archane debug tool for development) is guaranteed to be a failure in the mass-market.

Face it, the days of geeks ruling the computing kingdom are over. Nobody cares about that crap... another poster said it best--

I didn't realize "power users" meant "a dwindling niche of users stuck in the past".

True words. Our industry is all about rapid change. Either you adopt and update your skills or you die (professionally, that is). Guess what? things are changing in a *huge* way. In a few years, iPads and similar devices will be *the way* the majority of people interact with the internet. They'll do it on their couch and they will have zero patience for shitty software that requires something like a "task manager" (what is that, a debug tool?)

Re:Swing and a miss

[Anonymous Coward]

Android is Linux with (essentially) a custom windowing system.

Android is Linux in the sense that it is built on the Linux kernel. It is not the familiar operating system that pedants call GNU/Linux, though. The differences are deeper than the windowing system -- pretty much everything other than the kernel is completely different from any other Linux-based OS.

Similarly, your claim that "iOS is OS X" is misleading. The underlying technology is the same, but clearly if you buy an iPhone you are not getting a handheld Mac. OS X is capable of unrestricted multitasking, for example, whereas multitasking in iOS is very limited even with the new features in the latest version.

Re:Swing and a miss

[CAIMLAS]

Open has a variety of definitions to people.

The slashdot crowd tends to think of an "open platform" as one unencumbered by binary licensing - and forkable.

Most people seem to think of an open platform as one which is accessible - like a bar or a park. Sure, you don't own it, but you can go there and appreciate it.

By these definitions, Android and Symbian are less 'open' than the old WinMo 6.5. Anyone could write a decent application with a minimum of effort for the platform due to the maturity of the developer tools; the application would also be likely to actually work on a variety of WinMo phones. Android and Symbian are somewhat hemoraged markets, comparably.

Re:Swing and a miss

[node 3]

Android is Linux in the sense that it is built on the Linux kernel. It is not the familiar operating system that pedants call GNU/Linux, though. The differences are deeper than the windowing system -- pretty much everything other than the kernel is completely different from any other Linux-based OS.

That's why I worded it the way I did. I am assuming a POSIX layer underneath which can run (even if it doesn't include) all the standard GNU or BSD tools. Perhaps that assumption is wrong.

Similarly, your claim that "iOS is OS X" is misleading.

Not at all. If I said, "is Mac OS X", I would be misleading (and outright wrong). But before it was called iPhone OS, it was called OS X (as opposed to Mac OS X). iOS is a variation of OS X. It's essentially Mac OS X, with UIKit replacing AppKit, different bundled apps, a different security mechanism, and the omission of some frameworks which make little sense on a handheld, as well as the addition of some that do (there are more differences, but that's a fairly good overview). There's been a lot of cross-pollination between iOS and Mac OS X, with things like QuickTime X, CoreLocation and CoreAnimation going from iOS to Mac OS X, and OpenCL and GCD making their way to iOS.

The difference between iOS and Mac OS X, for example, is much less than the difference between Windows NT 3.0 and Windows 95.

but clearly if you buy an iPhone you are not getting a handheld Mac.

Which is why I didn't say Mac OS X. I realize that distinction is somewhat subtle, and if I say "OS X", people may think I mean "Mac OS X". Perhaps I should be more clear (it's a fine line between being clear and an overabundance of parenthetical statements and a patronizing tone).

OS X is capable of unrestricted multitasking, for example, whereas multitasking in iOS is very limited even with the new features in the latest version.

iOS (or iPhone OS, or OS X, whichever name/version we're talking about) has had the exact same multitasking capabilities as the desktop Mac OS X. The difference is the security model prevented background UIKit apps (with the exception of a handful of built-in apps).

If that seems like I'm splitting hairs, it's probably because you're assuming I'm saying something I'm not. I'm talking about the OS as a whole, not the interface (which is only part of the OS). The interfaces on Mac OS X and iOS are very different. The overall OSs, though, are exceptionally similar, differing in far less than, for example, Windows Mobile and Windows XP, or even Android and a standard Linux distro.

Re:Swing and a miss

[shutdown -p now]

Android is Linux in the sense that it is built on the Linux kernel. It is not the familiar operating system that pedants call GNU/Linux, though. The differences are deeper than the windowing system -- pretty much everything other than the kernel is completely different from any other Linux-based OS.

Not really. It still has shell and /etc and it uses wpa_supplicant for WiFi, for example; and many other things.

It's definitely quite different from your typical desktop distro (whereas Maemo, for example, is not), but not nearly as different as many people think.

Re:Swing and a miss

[toadlife]

Wow you really got ambushed for that post.

The blind hatred for anything Microsoft here runs deep.

Try my ROM for the Touch Pro 2! :)

Re:Swing and a miss

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone could write a decent application with a minimum of effort for the platform due to the maturity of the developer tools;

Not only that, you can write software that hooks deep into the OS (e.g. custom drivers) without having too "root" the phone.

Re:Swing and a miss

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would anybody want a task manager on their phone?

To switch between the multiple applications that are running at the same time.

The rest of your post is a giant straw man.

Re:Swing and a miss

[BasilBrush]

Open has a variety of definitions to people.
The slashdot crowd tends to think of an "open platform" as one unencumbered by binary licensing - and forkable.
Most people seem to think of an open platform as one which is accessible - like a bar or a park. Sure, you don't own it, but you can go there and appreciate it.

Indeed. Which is why I allowed for WimMo being "as open" as Symbian and Android. Even though both of those are open source, and WinMo isn't.

By these definitions, Android and Symbian are less 'open' than the old WinMo 6.5. Anyone could write a decent application with a minimum of effort for the platform due to the maturity of the developer tools;

Symbian is programmable in C++, Java ME, Flash Lite, Python, Ruby and .Net. The Native C++ compiles with GCC, and the standard IDE is a variant of Eclipse. As a platform it predates MinMo. In fact it's only a year younger than the very first release of Win CE. How is that not mature? Your claim for less openness that way, makes no sense.

(No doubt similar arguments could be made for Android from someone with more interest in it, given that it's Linux based.)

the application would also be likely to actually work on a variety of WinMo phones. Android and Symbian are somewhat hemoraged markets, comparably.

And if that's the argument, then iOS (iPhoneOS) is the "most open". The WinMo platform may not be as fragmented as Android or Symbian OS. But it's more fragmented than iOS. But it was a stupid argument to raise that as a definition of openness.

If you want to use app developer accessibility as the definition of openness, then Symbian, Android and WinMo are just the same. With iPhone being closed due to annual fees and single curated app store. Again, there is no uniqueness that WinMo brings to the market.

Re:Swing and a miss

[julian_t]

The thing is, as far as mobile OS'es go, windows mobile has been ahead, being an open platform and close to an actual OS.

The problem for me is *which* OS it is close to ;-) I wrestle with Windows enough on the desktop without wanting to have it on my phone as well.

I have an HTC Touch HD. Nice screen and OK for making basic phone calls, but apart from that it's not impressive. My daughter has an ipod touch... we can wander into a cafe, find free wi-fi, and try checking our mail. Nine times out of ten she can connect and get online... it just tends to work. Nine times out of ten I can't, and get told to 'check my connection settings' in a maze of twisty little dialogs. I don't worry that Skype on WinMo is so unreliable, because I so seldom get a chance to try it. Media Player is a joke as far as managing ones music is concerned. And then there are the lock-ups and crashes. It is, indeed, close the actual OS.

Maybe my old Nokia 6310 wasn't so bad after all...

Not surprising

[diegocg]

Phone 7 is in many ways a new mobile operative system, it doesn't even run software from old windows mobile versions (and you can't port your old C++ programs because native code programs are forbidden/restricted to big partners). So it's not surprising to find big differences with windows mobile. Wikipedia says it doesn't even support a socket API.

Re:Not surprising

[edivad]

What a smart choice from MS, isn't it?
Neglecting the HUGE Win32 code base which many software companies have, and failing in delivering what has been the best thing MS kept doing in the last 20 years.
Which is Compatibility at Win32 Level.
MS lost it, and not today, and not even yesterday.

How Much Cocaine?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

I wonder how much cocaine is consumed on the Microsoft Campus everyday?

Re:How Much Cocaine?

[Ethanol-fueled]

Not much.

The whole industry took a creative nosedive since it switched to Oxycontin in the mid '90's.

Old news

[sootman]

I think I heard this a couple months ago. No Flash, either.

Re:Old news

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, this was something they discussed during the original announcement back in February. Why is this new news to anyone?

Re:Old news

[shutdown -p now]

What's funnier is that Silverlight-in-the-browser isn't there, either (even though apps on WP7 are, essentially, written in Silverlight).

Re:Old news

[sootman]

Man, I could have spent four minutes finding a source and gotten this guy's +5. ;-)

What is it then?

[symbolset]

From the first link:

"Both KIN and Windows Phone 7 share common OS components, software and services. We will seek to align around a single platform for both products as well as consistent hardware specifications."

You can't have it both ways.

Re:What is it then?

[nwoolls]

They are different platforms. Windows Phone 7 isn't done...the Kin phones are out. Yes, they plan to align the platforms in the future, and sure they use common components, but they are different platforms now, and the Kin phones are not Windows Phone 7.

Read up on it on Wikipedia, Google, or any number of sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Kin

"The Kin is based on Windows CE and is distinct from Microsoft's Windows Mobile and Windows Phone 7 platforms."

Re:What is it then?

[nacturation]

From the first link:

"Both KIN and Windows Phone 7 share common OS components, software and services. We will seek to align around a single platform for both products as well as consistent hardware specifications."

You can't have it both ways.

Why can't you? Is it a false dichotomy?

Re:What is it then?

[mmcxii]

So OSX and Linux are the same OS? After all, we can't have it both ways.

Re:What is it then?

[symbolset]

Very good - you found the source of the quote. Now read it. Follow the citation links. It doesn't say what you think it says. Here, I'll give you another snippet:

Microsoft said that the underlying fundamentals of Kin and Windows Phone 7 will be held together by similar core technologies. Both Kin and Windows Phone 7 run the same Silverlight platform. Microsoft has stated that over the long-term, Windows Phone 7 would be merged with Kin.

They are like enough for the similarities to be meaningful. Microsoft is going to be able to use the runaway success of the Kin as a springboard for their Windows Phone 7 launch. The result should be epic.

Re:What is it then?

[nwoolls]

The Kin is not Windows Phone 7.

Just because they use a similar core and have a plan to unite the platforms does NOT mean the Kin phones available today are Windows Phone 7.

My original statement was the Kin's are not Windows Phone 7. You are not going to find a quote that contradicts that. Sure that they are "based on the same core" or that they "have plans" to do X.

Again, Windows Phone 7 is still in development. To claim that the Kin phones, available today, are Windows Phone 7 is just silly...

Re:What is it then?

[larry bagina]

Who the hell calls OS X and Linux the same OS?

Re:What is it then?

[mmcxii]

The same kind of people who consider WinMo7 and the Kin as having the same OS. At least they should according to the logic of symbolset.

Re:What is it then?

[SanityInAnarchy]

OS X and BSD, maybe. Or OS X and iPhoneOS.

Linux really doesn't share much with OS X. Not the kernel, not the userland tools, not the UI.

Re:What is it then?

[hairyfeet]

I would also point out that saying they are the same because they have the same core, is like saying Win2K and Win7 are the same OS because they have the NT core. As the FLOSSies will tell you there can be a vastly different experience while keeping an OS core, for example with Linux you can have everything from an embedded minimal OS with nothing but a couple of CLI tools to a fully blown 3d desktop, all while having the same kernel "core at the base.

So I'd say the only way we'll find out if Win7 mobile is any good is to wait until we actually have product in our hands. They may learn from their mistakes and put out a good product like Win7 desktop, they may pull a Vista, who knows? But trying to claim they are one and the same because they have the same core and "someday" MSFT hopes to merge them (remember how many years it took MSFT to merge consumer and business?) is kinda jumping the gun.

Re:What is it then?

[jedidiah]

...actually, the common Unix userland tools in Apple products is what lets me have my own SMS cleanup script on my iPhone.

It's very handy really. It just goes to show that Steve's tech has a way of getting away from him even when he tries to actively sabotage it.

Re:What is it then?

[AHuxley]

Somewhere deep in Utah a Unix textbook is flipped open and commands typed into OS X and Linux.
As for Windows they love segmentation.
Keeps profits flowing from the rich and the working/poor get to rent until they can pay more.
As long as they are looking at some form of MS logo.

Re:What is it then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it's either a false dichotomy, or it's not.

Re:What is it then?

[Rosyna]

Somewhere deep in Utah a Unix textbook is flipped open and commands typed into OS X and Linux.

Well, Mac OS X is the largest Unix distribution in the world.

Re:What is it then?

[AHuxley]

SCO joke based on "When you go to the bookstore and look in the UNIX section, there's books on "How to Program UNIX" but when you go to the Linux section and look for "How to Program Linux" you're not gonna find it, because it doesn't exist. Linux is a copy of UNIX, there is no difference [between them]."

Re:What is it then?

[im_thatoneguy]

Kin is the low-end product that doesn't have to handle the Windows Mobile 7 requirements.

So right now it has to run on an OS which doesn't have the same hardware requirements. As the hardware catches up to WM7 minimum system specs and they can release a WM7 spec'ed phone at 7th grader cell phone prices they'll transition to the meatier OS.

I suspect they started with the price-point "Free with Contract" and delivered as much as they could cutting whatever corners they had to cut to get there. They also get to beta test the cool webpage which syncs all your phone's stuff on a product which won't potentially hurt the WM7 brand.

2c.

Re:What is it then?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it were a false dichotomy then you could have it both ways, dumbass.

Re:What is it then?

[symbolset]

I took the trouble to write up some reference material for you about a month ago. You should read it.

Prior performance is no guarantee of future results, but that's where the smart money bets.

Re:What is it then?

[jerdo]

Why is this marked Informative? Clearly he is making a joke. Just read the line about the runaway success of the Kin.

Re:What is it then?

[hairyfeet]

Uhhhh...why exactly would anyone care what some thinktank says? I can't think of anyone that is more consistently wrong than these 'thinktanks" and they are about as worthless as tits on a boar hog. remember how thinktanks said Apple would end up with another Rockr with the iPhone? Nobody can really predict WHAT the public will do, if they could they would be richer than old Billy Gates. All we can do is wait and see. Personally I think Apple is gonna be screwed by the shitty AT&T infrastructure that can't take the loads the iStuff generate and AT&T's refusal to spend the kind of money needed to bring it up to speed.

But trying to figure out how ANYTHING is gonna play out based on these "research groups" is just a waste of time.

Re:What is it then?

[mgblst]

It is more like saying Vista and Windows 7 is the same, since they DO have the same core, which is true.

Re:What is it then?

[hairyfeet]

Thanks for proving my point, and also showing you haven't used either OS, or you'd know Vista and 7 are as different as night and day. I used Vista from Beta 1 through SP1 and honestly? It never really worked, not at all. Windows 7 I have been running since the beta, no problems. No bugs, no crashes, no weird screw ups, it "just works".

Re:What is it then?

[Blakey Rat]

I would also point out that saying they are the same because they have the same core, is like saying Win2K and Win7 are the same OS because they have the NT core. As the FLOSSies will tell you there can be a vastly different experience while keeping an OS core, for example with Linux you can have everything from an embedded minimal OS with nothing but a couple of CLI tools to a fully blown 3d desktop, all while having the same kernel "core" at the base.

Maybe eventually Slashdot geeks will realize that nobody in the real world gives a flying fuck what the kernel is, as long as it reasonably supports popular technologies. Other than that, the OS kernel is an implementation detail only, and entirely abstracted-away by the rest of the software.

Or, in other terms: the quality of the UI and applications are a thousand times more important to the success of a project than the quality of the underlying language or kernel.

(I make an exception for Java, since it's my educated opinion that it's impossible to make a quality GUI in Java.)

I'm confused.

[Zencyde]

Wait, I'm confused. Is this an iPhone? Wait, is it really 2010? This thing isn't getting copy and paste? Man, what a STUPID decision.

Re:I'm confused.

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Wait, I'm confused. Is this an iPhone? Wait, is it really 2010? This thing isn't getting copy and paste? Man, what a STUPID decision.

This is the icing on the cake for you? How about that is is as closed as the iPhone, you can't even run native code on it (unless you are a "partner")?

Re:I'm confused.

[MemoryDragon]

Well add to that that there is no HTML5 either, because the browser is stuck somewhere between IE6 and IE7...
Good luck WinMo users in getting whizbang web applications, you will need it.

Sorry, can't boot

[Anonymous Coward]

"We had to choose between booting the device, or shutting it down. We decided to implement the shutting down functionality; though we realize some users use the booting of their device periodically"

All in all; sometimes you can't choose between functionality and simply need to implement all essential features.

-- Fr

wait a minute

[Dionysus]

I thought all Apple people decided that copy-paste was unnecessary.

Re:wait a minute

[Bigjeff5]

Well they did, until Apple decided to put it in (from the complete lack of a user outcry since the iPhone's inception, I'm sure - this is another brilliant concept from the mind of the great Steve Jobs).

Now it's the greatest thing ever, and no "modern" phone lacks it.

Re:wait a minute

[painandgreed]

Well they did, until Apple decided to put it in (from the complete lack of a user outcry since the iPhone's inception, I'm sure - this is another brilliant concept from the mind of the great Steve Jobs).

If you are serious, I think you are failing to see Apple's sales strategy. They were always going to have cut-and-paste, just like they were always going to have MMS. Sure, the initial version didn't have them, but that is because Apple starts with a small core functionality and makes it work. They don't worry about bullet points as much as they do a working and easy to use end device. One they have it, then they will put out a new version (in the iPhone's case both for hardware and software). The new versions will have those bullet point features added once they have been made to work as well as the core functionality. Not only does this give a solid and useable device which appeals to the general consumer, but also give them feature creep and a reason for people with perfectly working earlier versions to want to buy new models. When the first iPhone came out I knew it would have cut-and-paste as well as MMS if I waited, and it did. Look at the iPod, they did the same thing there. Once the iPod got photos, games, and notes. I knew that it would eventually replace my PDA* in functionality if I waited long enough.

*As it happened, the cell phone replaced if first, but I was still lacking features will lately. The iPod touch would have done that perfectly however if I hadn't have gotten a cell first.

Re:wait a minute

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I thought all Apple people decided that copy-paste was unnecessary.

You'll notice not many people talk about actually using it.

There actually is a distinction between "I'll buy anything they'll sell to me!" and "Welp I've had this for a while and just haven't realy needed it." You'd think cybernetic wannabees like us would already know this.

Re:wait a minute

[mjwx]

You'll notice not many people talk about actually using it.

I don't hear people talk about using the oven a lot, but I'm fairly certain that people use them on a regular basis.

Copy and paste is literally that basic that it is pretty much taken for granted. We've had it on every system for 20 years, there is no need to mention copy and paste, but seeing as you asked, I use copy on Android quite a bit, it accompanies multitasking quite well.

There actually is a distinction between "I'll buy anything they'll sell to me!" and "Welp I've had this for a while and just haven't realy needed it."

You missed out "I'm a fanboy so I can justify the omission of any functionality no matter how basic or useful it is" which is the most common justification I see used.

Re:wait a minute

[painandgreed]

And if I may reply to my own post (because I was going to say this but forgot), it may do MS well to follow the same strategy. Put out a solid product and then make regular updates that add features and usability while building up a customer base. If anybody can come in with a loss leader while looking towards the long term end result, it would be MS. Trouble is, what are the chances of MS putting out a solid product, following it up with regular updates, while not dumping everything, starting all over from scratch, and redesigning everything from the ground up before such a policy can come to fruit?

Re:wait a minute

[indiechild]

Chances are slim to none that MS will succeed, it's just not in their corporate culture. Apple's general business strategy is nicely documented by 37signals in their book "ReWork". Should be recommended reading for all geeks.

Re:wait a minute

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Copy and paste is literally that basic that it is pretty much taken for granted. We've had it on every system for 20 years, there is no need to mention copy and paste...

Uh huh. And the missing detail here was a metric butt-load of people not having it available, then suddenly having it available and... ptbtbtb nobody really cares.

but seeing as you asked, I use copy on Android quite a bit...

I didn't ask about Android. (Though I do appreciate this amusing comment given the blasting you give fanboys later in your post.) It's a different animal. I've never used Android so I'm not going to sit here and tell you what missing features it desperately needs.

You missed out "I'm a fanboy so I can justify the omission of any functionality no matter how basic or useful it is" which is the most common justification I see used.

I didn't miss it, I just didn't include it because I figured mentioning uninformed ranting would just bruise some egos. By the way, here's a fun fact: The people who use the product know more about it than the people who don't. Also consider that you're getting your information from a site that gets paid for us to bicker.

Re:wait a minute

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only does this give a solid and useable device which appeals to the general consumer, but also give them feature creep and a reason for people with perfectly working earlier versions to want to buy new models.

Just to be clear, copy-cut-and-paste which debuted in iPhone OS 3.0, was made available for no additional cost for existing iPhone owners.

Of course it's missing copy and paste

[Low Ranked Craig]

They started copying iPhone OS before Apple added that feature.

This is overblown anyway. I've use C/P maybe 3 times since they added the feature. I suspect I'll use it a lot more on the iPad.

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[Grimbleton]

I use copy and paste all the time on my Samsung Omnia running Windows Mobile 6.1

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[Anonymous Coward]

As do I on my mogul, copy from browser window to notes, address from browser to google maps...

Why are they taking copy/paste OUT anyway? it's not like there is huge overhead involved, or a security risk either.
It's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard from microsoft, and I go all the way back to dos 1.0

The phones are FINALLY getting more powerful and more capable of doing the job I want them for, a general purpose computer in my pocket that can make phone calls. WHY the hell are they now REMOVING features?
It's Idiocy tell you, just pure idiocy.

And doing it because the iphone does? If Steve Jobs jumped off the golden gate bridge would the windows 7 development team do the same thing? (Oooo, wait, that's a win win...)

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I use copy and paste all the time on my Samsung Omnia running Windows Mobile 6.1

I used it all the time on my Treo a couple of years ago. Then I couldn't when I got an iPhone. Then eventually the OS was upgraded and I could... but yeah I still don't use it much. I use the iPhone a lot more than I did the Treo so I'm not really sure why it doesn't matter so much anymore. I don't know if it's because I adapted to not needing it or if it's because the 'workflow' of it is just different and not all that necessary. I do distinctly remember spending half my time on the Treo getting around the fact that it had a terrible web browser and finding apps for it without the aid of a computer involved a lot of research and trickery. Both those problems are gone now so maybe I just used the C&P a lot in those scenarios. It's not something I've really measured, just a mild curiosity now. It never really occured to me before that a change in how a computing device works could mean lowered reliance on the clipboard. On my desktop/laptop computer usage, my use of the clipboard has gone UP in recent years!

Heh, on a side note, it is amusing when I accidently hit 'paste' and I see something on the clipboard from like 6 months ago. I'm starting to think we need a statute of limitations on the clipboard. IRC users already understand this. :D

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[Man On Pink Corner]

I suspect I'll use it a lot more on the iPad.

You'll wish to God there was some way to turn it off on the iPad, actually. It's actually a real nuisance.

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[ProppaT]

Copying iPhone? Come on now, really? You could say that about Android. Maybe even WebOS to some extent. Honestly though, how is this copying anything? Windows Mobile was around before iPhone and no one claimed Apple was copying MS because they weren't, it was a totally different type of experience. Windows Phone 7 is a totally different experience than the iPhone, much as the Zune HD is a much different experience than the iPod.

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[Anonymous Coward]

Yah, because multitasking on phones has always been such a good idea, like on my Nokia S60 phone that would allow apps to leak RAM so quickly that even without any extra 3rd party apps (phone not bought from some carrier like people in the US do, plain phone with no carrier bullshit attached) that it tended to lock up in just a few days and require a "hard reboot" (read: power cycle through battery removal since the power button wouldn't work). Hell, on top of this a lot of the times if I had been keeping the phone in my pocket for a few hours I would only notice this problem when I received an incoming call or text message, which would be missed as the phone freaked out and crashed.

Under these circumstances I'd rather wait until my phone is actually capable of handling multitasking properly before having it enabled, there are very few occasions where I'm running more than one app on my phone anyway (in fact, most of the time I'm not running any apps, it's just sitting there waiting for incoming data).

As for cut and paste, it's a nice "core" feature but I can understand why Apple could get away with not having cut and paste on the iPhone, most users* (including tech-savvy ones) don't exactly spend all day cutting and pasting stuff on their cellphones.

* Please note that "most users" does not include the following individuals:

• That executive guy who always seems to be in two conference calls at the same time, never sleeps and only sees his family over christmas (which is of course spent at some ridiculously expensive resort to justify him working 26 hours per day).
• The Windows nerd who's constantly running a VNC client connected to his home PC on his phone while simultaneously swearing over being unable to hit the "Start" button with his crummy resistive touchscreen and bragging to coworkers about how user friendly and awesome his phone and VNC both are...
• The "road warrior" IT consultant who sleeps in airports and probably doesn't even have an apartment.

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[bonch]

They avoided multitasking until this point because it's a crashy, battery-draining piece of shit on other platforms. Multitasking on iOS is just a Grand Central Dispatch block that your app submits to be run in the background. Your bitterness is amusing.

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[Low Ranked Craig]

I really shoundn't need to explain this, but the iPhone originally had no copy and paste. This was apparently a BIG DEAL and Apple eventually added C/P with much fanfare.

Get it now? No? Woosh?

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[daveime]

If multitasking is a crashy, battery-draining piece of shit, then perhaps you have been looking at the wrong platform ?

No need to tar all platforms with the iCrash brush though.

Within my family over the past 5 years, we've had the following Nokia phones, ALL of which multitask fine without leaking RAM or draining batteries.

9500 Communicator
E90 Communicator
N97
N900 Maemo

Perhaps you need to set your bar a little higher than iBling and start using a phone that does what you want, not what Steve wants ?

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[Sorcerer13]

I've got the same phone and I use the copy and paste function frequently. For example, if someone sends me a text message asking me for someone's telephone number. Say that person doesn't have a smartphone, I don't want to send them my contact as a vcard because I don't know if their phone can accept it. So, I open up the contact, highlight the phone number and hit copy. Then I switch back to the sms function of the phone, hit paste and select send. It's simple and it takes all of maybe 30 seconds.

When my upgrade comes around, I might just switch to android even though I have really enjoyed my WinMo phone.

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[Anonymous Coward]

You actually need some useful, usable apps that you actually want to multi-task before it becomes a useful feature. Hence the Nokia FAIL.

Re:Of course it's missing copy and paste

[daveime]

10,000 Tetris Clones in the Apple Store don't count as "useful".

However, having Putty on my mobile and being able to administer work servers while sitting in a coffee shop IS useful. And I was able to do it AND browse the Internet AT THE SAME TIME. And without having to void the warranty of my mobile device. And still 5 years earlier than Apples' iOffering.

iTroll must try harder.

Can't copy and paste?

[gringofrijolero]

I wonder who filed the DMCA takedown on that..

Re:Can't copy and paste?

[Vegeta99]

[offtopic] Your username made me laugh :P [/offtopic]

Why is it called "7" again???

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand this thing is new and that it will lack features, but then why the heck do they want to link it to their other operating systems...

I have a startling suggestion for Microsoft... Call it: Windows Phone 1

Well, how typical!

[epp_b]

There goes Microsoft copying Apple again!

Re:Well, how typical!

[mjwx]

There goes Microsoft copying Apple again!

Good for the goose, good for the gander.

It's not like Apple didnt copy all of its products from:
Xerox.
Creative.
Open Source.
Microsoft (I guess this is circular, like a cycle of abuse except it's us getting abused).

won't do adobe either

[RodRooter]

Bet it wont work with flash either. At least Microsoft is getting back to core values again.

Corporate mandate #1: Steal steal steal steal grab grab swipe swipey swipe swipe yoink yoinkity yoink yoink steal.

Copy Apple's product/business model, paste failure

[mattytee]

Copy "iPod", paste "Zune"
Copy "Apple Store", paste "Microsoft Store"
Copy "iPhone", paste "Windows Mobile 7"


I'm seeing a pattern here...

Windows Phone 7...

[gilesjuk]

...or Microsoft iPhone OS2.0 clone as I like to call it.

Honestly, are they following the same development roadmap as Apple did?

Give it two or three years and it might be useful.

Re:Windows Phone 7...

[UnknowingFool]

The difference being that Apple is forging ahead while MS is copying what they did years ago. Taking a look at the Zune, the 2nd generation Zune was a better player than the iPod Classic. The problem was that it wasn't better than the iPod Touch which was released 2 months before the 2nd gen Zune. By the time MS caught up with the Zune HD, Apple had a major head start with their App store. All things being equal, the App store has thousands of applications for potential iPod Touch buyers while the MS can only offer a handful of apps to a Zune HD owner.

Re:Windows Phone 7...

[ProppaT]

Please tell me how WP7 is a clone of iPhone OS? I'm failing to see the similarity. That's like calling iPhone OS a clone of WM6.5. It's not. There are no similarities except for the fact that they run on a cellphone.

Re:Windows Phone 7...

[UnknowingFool]

The problem is that WP7 is not a clone of iOS. It is a MS pathetic attempt to copy Apple in terms of strategy and UI. Looking at WP7 it lacks many, many features that the iPhone had when it came out because I think MS hasn't figured out a lot of things yet. MS is shifting from stylus based to all touch which requires a fundamental shift in design. Apple decided to forgo any kind of stylus and went with all touch to begin. Because of these choices, the iPhone was more appliance like than computer like. UI elements like buttons had to be larger and simple to access. Supposedly Apple had been developing the iPhone for years but didn't release it till it wasn't ready. MS has had to try to match that in a much shorter period. But they're throwing out whatever they can now to try to stem the loss in marketshare. My prediction is that WP7 will be very buggy and very incomplete.

patent

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this a 'Method of Implementing Copy and Paste on a Mobile Cellphone' patent or something? What's going on?

Re:patent

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Is this a 'Method of Implementing Copy and Paste on a Mobile Cellphone' patent or something? What's going on?

I'm not a software developer here so please excuse the dumb question: But if you design an Operating System intended to completely isolate apps from bumping into each other, presumably for security reasons, isn't the clipboard a potential risk? In the case of a multi-tasking OS, what's to stop an app from constantly reading the clipboard and re-broadcasting anything that looks like a phone, credit card, or social security number?

Re:patent

[MemoryDragon]

Theroetically this has been an issue, practically none copy paste on mobile phones has been around for ages, heck ask people who have nokia phones, or palm phones.

Re:patent

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Recently there was a blurb on ... oh.. I think it was somewhere on Digg about how some sites were messing with the clipboard so that if you copied the image address it'd somehow modify the clipboard to add the copyright info to it.

I don't know how it works, but I'm not convinced right now somebody won't get the idea to turn that into a form of SPAM.

Re:patent

[MemoryDragon]

Well that is not directly a security problem it is just added info in the url...

I'll say the same thing I said before...

[Anonymous Coward]

> But if you lambasted Apple for not having it but you want to excuse MS for not having it, you have some introspection to do.

I'm one of the people who has been giving Apple a hard time (mostly for their lame excuses about why X is unnecessary/pointless ... until they finally add it, when it becomes the most wonderful innovation ever!). I'd just like to say that this new Windows phone SUCKS ASS. Copy/paste is really basic functionality for any computer-like device. Not having it sucks.

I expect this product to become the next Zune.

Re:I'll say the same thing I said before...

[Concerned Onlooker]

"I expect this product to become the next Zune."

What's a Zune?

Re:I'll say the same thing I said before...

[perryizgr8]

"I expect this product to become the next Zune."

What's a Zune?

exactly.

Old news

[cloakedpegasus]

This was known on day one. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20000585-56.html

The transistion is complete

[NicknamesAreStupid]

They lost their market share, their mobile customers, and now their developers. At least they have been thorough. BTW, did anyone mention that their new version of Windows Mobile runs the old version of Internet Explorer (IE7)? It will soon be the older version as IE9 will release at about the same time.

Re:The transistion is complete

[MemoryDragon]

Jepp that is one of the biggest gripes I have, the mobile world mostly has settled down to the rather latest version of webkit (and opera) and unlike the desktop world you just could say, forget about IE, this version cannot do anything.
But now again Microsoft again comes with another utterly shitty version of IE and people suddenly start to expect to see the whizbang stuff Android and iOS are capable of thanks to webkit. And this time Opera as the savior for WinMo is out of the game thanks to the refusal to expose native APIs.
I really hope from a web developers perspective that WinMo7 is dead on arrival, otherwise we will run into the same browser mess the Desktop already has with everyone almost at the same level and Microsoft with a market share which cannot be ignored (and of course also their utterly dumb userbase which refuses to upgrade) dragging everything down and adding 30% to the entire development costs.

Dead by 2PM?

[Wingsy]

Did you read the part where the current prototypes have a dead battery by 2PM?

Uh-oh

It wasn't me

[symbolset]

It was Microsoft's marketing department that made this link, not me. If it doesn't leverage the comarketing efforts in the way they desired that's not my fault. It's theirs.

It's too late to undo it. They are linked.

Re:It wasn't me

[Achromatic1978]

Jesus Christ, your reading comprehension sucks. Guess what, the foundations of OSX and BSD are "linked" from some common components. By your rationale, they are the same thing.

Fuck me, what convoluted lengths are you not willing to stretch to to fulfil your analogies.

Re:It wasn't me

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not really clear about what's going on here, are you?

Anyway, I want to thank you guys for your help with the messaging. If we're going to make Windows Phone 7 == Kin Three by launch day I'm going to need your help some more so keep up the good work.

DAMN I COPY PASTE ALL THE TIME

[Anonymous Coward]

Only, not on my phones. I even avoid the keyboard. But, I am against the idea of NOT having copy paste, just in case, or what I like to call the

Safety Dance

We can dance if we want to.
We can leave your friends behind.
Cause' your friend don't dance,
and if they don't dance, well they're
no friends of mine.

Say, we can go where we want to.
A place where they will never find.
And we can act like we come from out of this world.
Leave the real one far behind.

We can go where we want to.
A place where they will never find.
And we can act like we come from out of this world.
Leave the real one far behind.

We can go when we want to.
Night is young and so am I.
And we can dress real neat
from our hands to our feet
and surprise you with a victory cry.

Say, we can act if we want to.
If we don't nobody will.
And you can act real rude,
and totally remove and I can act like an imbecile.

We can dance. We can dance. Everything's under control.
We can dance. We can dance. Doin it pole to pole.
We can dance. We can dance. Everybody look at your hands.
We can dance. We can dance. Everybody's takin' the chance.
Safety Dance. Oh, Safety Dance. Yes, Safety Dance.

We can dance if we want to.
We've got all your life, and mine.
As long as we abuse it,
Never gonna lose it.
Everything will work out right.

We can dance if we want to.
We can leave your friends behind.
Cause' your friend don't dance,
and if they don't dance, well they're
no friends of mine.

I say, we can dance. We can dance. Everything's under control.
We can dance. We can dance. Doin it pole to pole.
We can dance. We can dance. Everybody look at your hands.
We can dance. We can dance. Everybody's takin' the chance.

Yes, midgets were used in this copy paste of the lyrics. I would not waste my time here on a phone.

Phone OS makers ship betas as if they're 1.0

[BcNexus]

Windows Phone 7 shows how the phone OS development process is broken industry wide. Software houses* rush out an incomplete release, expect people to pay for it, and plan to use the proceeds to finance the development of a later, usable release.

First, MS is leaving out two important features that belong together:

• Websurfing
• Copy and paste: Copying, searching with, and sharing text information

Notice how neither Ida nor Myerson includes them in the list of things Windows Phone 7 does:

• Merging personal and work contacts
• Integrating Xbox Live games and Zune music and video
• Including mobile versions of Office
• Unifying social photos from social networking services

I want my copy and paste now and millions of others will later when Windows Phone 7 comes out. It's a great way to do things with information I find while using my phone, especially on web pages.

However, to MS's own detriment, Windows Phone Executive Todd Brix says they're replacing the tried and true data manipulation tool. '"It's actually an intentional design decision," Brix says. "We try to anticipate what the user wants so copy and paste isn't necessary."' But, the thing is, MS can't anticipate all the times a user needs copy and paste, so taking away control from users will only leave them missing it

Second, MS is pushing a beta quality release and calling it a 1.0 release. Ida says,

Doing so many things from scratch means that in a lot of ways Windows Phone 7 is more like the first version of a product than the seventh major release.

Meanwhile, Myerson has warned everyone,

"We're going to reset, but it is going to take us five years to build a product we all want to have. There were people that looked in the mirror a year ago and said, well, if we aren't going to win next year, I am out of here. I think when we look back on the release five years from now, this was a foundational release, not the release that broke through."

Overall, Windows Phone 7 breaks the established and useful copy and paste paradigm and the project leader also says what the OS can do, it will do poorly. MS should sit on Windows Phone 7 until they can make it feature complete.

----
*MS, Google, Apple, but in this case, MS. Here are examples:

• Apple: Copy and paste, video camera, multitasking
• Google: Exchange support in Android, hands free profile, no task manager, voice dialing
• MS: The rest of this post is about MS aiming to release a beta quality OS as a 1.0 release

Re:Phone OS makers ship betas as if they're 1.0

[MemoryDragon]

Well they left websurfing out deliberately, because they again are going to ship another shoddy ie mobile version (this time featurewise between ie6 and ie7 desktop) as browser of choice, and this time you wont have a chance to get a decent browser on your machine.
But I am glad that Android and iOS combined have such a strong market presence that users who cry for dynamic webapps will be left out in the dust on that shitty browser without any mercy!

Come on now...

[billsayswow]

Come on, don't start coming down on them for no copy-paste yet. It took the iPhone long enough to get it, and we gave them a chance.

Re:Come on now...

[baka_toroi]

The iPhone was offering something new. This doesn't.

Re:Come on now...

[billsayswow]

Not really, at least not in the sense I mean. Copy-paste had been around well before it.

Re:Come on now...

[perryizgr8]

The iPhone was offering something new. This doesn't.

what?

Re:Come on now...

[SolitaryMan]

The iPhone was offering something new.

Like what?

Depends on data paths

[SuperKendall]

iPhone didn't have cut-and-paste either..

But what it did have, were data paths for some common needs to transfer data from one place to another. For instance, you could send a URL you were browsing into Mail, or an image from your photo gallery into Mail also, and generally you could click on URL's to bring them up in Safari removing that need for cut&paste.

I think this approach is what Windows Mobile is trying as well, instead of the need for general cut and paste to try and offer more channeled data paths for the user. I still think that approach might not be too bad, I didn't really mind not having cut & paste before and initial users of WM7 might not either depending on what they can do with information.

Well then here you go

[SuperKendall]

It was stupid then and it's stupid now. I haven't seen many excuses yet.

How about the aformentioned Paul Thurrott:

http://www.winsupersite.com/mobile/wp7_love.asp

The multitasking is limited. Users will only be able to get apps from the Marketplace, and not from third parties. Gasp! Is it true that there's no copy and paste?

No matter. Windows Phone combines those very few things that were right about Windows Mobile -- primarily some business functionality -- with a much wider set of new functionality that is exciting in both scope and possibility.

You can read what Paul thought about Apple's lack of Cut & Paste at Daring Fireball

Re:Well then here you go

[arose]

That's one. You can find just about any opinion in that quantity. I'm wondering where you see a whole trend.

It is the *only* choice they have

[coryking]

Rule number one in the new world order of touch driven tablet computers:
"Operating systems designed for keyboards and mice do *not* translate into good operating systems for touch".
Apple realized this and ditched OSX. I would think they deliberatly made it hard to port desktop applications over because you cannot just port an app designed for the Keyboard/Mouse app over to a touch-based environment. You have to rethink the entire design of your application.

It would be a huge mistake for Microsoft to allow code-interop between their desktop OS and their touch-driven mobile (and presumably tablet) operating system. The last thing you want it is to encourage people to half-ass-idly port their legacy junk over without giving thought to how it would work with touch.

Re:It is the *only* choice they have

[edivad]

Nobody thinks about porting WIndows applications to a Mobile OS.
Of course, you have to implement the GUI using the Mobile OS abstractions and functionality.
Win32 and C/C++ libraries and frameworks that exists inside software companies, go a bit beyond the UI.
With Android, they provided the NDK, while iOSX supports C/C++ code natively.
But no, MS and the management du jour following the mobile unit, decided to break what made them appreciated by ISV and software developers in general.

Re:It is the *only* choice they have

[Roogna]

But that's the thing, Apple -didn't- ditch OS X. While yes the highest level UI code requires changes, and most importantly -thought- when switching to the touch based UI's, but the code, being objective-c, and using almost all the same, or extremely similar api's to desktop OS X is -very- portable between the two platforms. If anything the main difference is simply that iOS doesn't have a lot of the buildup from years and years.

Do not want

[symbolset]

It matters a lot to the people who have used prior devices built on WinCE. People have a pretty strong consensus about that.

It's obvious that the thing is going to launch with no ISV apps to speak of - it's a clean break from prior WinMo so prior apps don't work at all. If you want to make apps for it they have to be completely recoded with Silverlight, and not full Silverlight either, but the mobile one so existing Silverlight apps don't work either. With so much critical mobile functionality broken out the gate, bread-and-butter apps like navi aren't going to work (without a working compass, you can't orient the map). No copy/paste, no multitasking... if it lines up with the Kin it'll ship with no instant messaging app. Cloud backing for auto-uploading huge pictures on cloud services to run out your 3G data plan... that's great.

I am so looking forward to this. It's lining up to be one of the most fabulous IT disasters of all time. We're going to be talking about this one long after Vista is forgotten.

CNET's Ina Fried!

[Anonymous Coward]

This author is one of the main reasons Cnet is no longer what it used to be... Its sad. I for one miss real tech stories not sales pitches disguised as news articles. And why we are at it, Pick a sex and stay with it! I don't need someone who can't even decide what sex they are to tell me what I should or should not care about! N for the record I am a gay man.

Lets all get back to just the facts and stop letting failed writers take over articles as opinion for flame baiting its users. As a windows user I would never tell anyone else how they need to be on my os of choice, its all a personal choice, But I am no longer going to stand for other that don't even use my system of choice or the modern version to dictate to me what I should or should not be using! And yeah I am a flash designer. And no its not going anywhere! And neither am I! You wanna choose not to use Flash, great! But no one has any right to tell anyone else what they can or can't use on a system they own!

So lets not hear any more from CNET's Ina Fried! The world will be a much nicer place I promise you..

Very, very, old news...

[macshome]

Um. Microsoft announced a long time ago that Windows Phone 7 would have no copy-paste or multitasking.

Did CNET just now figure this out?

Re:Very, very, old news...

[MemoryDragon]

Jepp seems like it, wait until they figure out how shoddy the browser is they are going to deliver with WinMo7, I just wonder what they are going to print to excuse that.
As usual with Microsoft it will again be like that with WinMo8 everything will be better.
This is a game Microsoft cannot win, unless they rethink their entire not invented here politics.

DRM Prevents piracy

[symbolset]

And of course good DRM will make sure people don't reflash their Droid X to the new Windows Phone 7 software without paying the license fee.

nonono!

[symbolset]

MS should sit on Windows Phone 7 until they can make it feature complete.

If you wait until it's perfect you'll never ship product. Ship it now and improve it later. It's the One Microsoft Way. They can't afford to wait: they needed to launch this platform two years ago. If they had shipped then it would be "fixed" by now.

Seriously - they're doing great. Let's not give them any more help, ok?

Re:nonono!

[ZosX]

How great can they possibly be doing? They are over two years late to market and they don't even have the same feature set as the OS they are coding to replace. This is the classic microsoft at its best. Another me too product. The sad thing is that they practically reinvented the smartphone market with windows ce and for the longest time, their OS drove the best phones out there. The iphone should have been a wakeup call that the desktop centric approach of CE was not the right way foward, but its now 2010, and Microsoft is finally getting around to releasing its iphone slaying OS, and is once again too late to the party. Android will easily eclipse iphone in market share in the next year or so and will start to eventually become a real contender to blackberry if they can add some features that the corporations are looking for like better exchange sync, better security (tracking, remote wipe), and a few other things. I think android can easily win the race and it seems that the manufacturers are all hedging various bets on the future of the platform as well. More competition is good, but if you ask me I think most people will see windows mobile as a has been. I guess the market will decide ultimately.

Re:nonono!

[symbolset]

How great can they possibly be doing?

It takes a special kind of vision to turn a half-trillion dollar company that earns $2B a month profits into the Microsoft you see before you today. It takes the sort of drive to expand into new markets by buying up valuable mindspace visionary companies and fold them into your current offerrings in a way that drives the new levels of shareholder value they have achieved. The company has a long road ahead, and a great deal to overcome to become what we hope of it. Microsoft will need a great many more victories like this one to find their place in history.

For all of me, it can't happen fast enough.

I guess the market will decide ultimately.

Truer words were never writ.

Re:nonono!

[ZosX]

Expanding into new markets? It cost them 1.5 billion to get into the video games market. Only microsoft can afford to throw away cash like that just to stay competitive. Can they adapt to new markets fast enough to remain competitive? That's the question and I'm sure they've looked at the microsoft of the future where the PC does not exist anymore. Whether that plays out or not is still in the cards, but while I'm a pretty big fan of Windows 7 overall, everything else they've done has been rather underwhelming. I can't think of a single non PC related product that is all that wow worthy. Look at bing. How much money have they now wasted on something that has basically generated no revenue for them? Its probably good google has competition in the search market, but I'd rather not see it come from Microsoft. Who knows. Maybe a google dominated future is far scarier than anything microsoft could have concocted....

It seems to have been the right decision

[Anonymous Coward]

I have actually used these devices. I've also used several Windows Mobile 6.5 devices. Based on my own experience with using the phone, I think leaving out copy/paste isn't quite as dumb as you might think. (Please note: I don't speak for Microsoft. All statements below are my own personal opinions.)

First, there is nothing preventing an application developer from adding copy/paste within his or her own application if it is appropriate. What is missing is copy/paste built into the OS for cross-application data transfer.

Second, copy/paste is a means, not an end. You don't grab your phone to do some copying and pasting -- you grab your phone to make a phone call, browse the web, send a message, play music, take down a note, etc. While copy/paste can help with some of these tasks, it is just one possible way to get the job done. Windows Phone 7 includes several mechanisms that help more directly with common tasks. In many of the situations where I would have needed copy/paste on a Windows Mobile 6.5 phone (i.e. to dial a phone number mentioned in email, to open a web site mentioned in an SMS message, etc.), I don't need (or even want) to copy/paste in Windows Phone 7 -- I just tap on the phone number or tap on the address and the right thing just happens. (Not to mention that text selection on a capacitive-touch screen is an exercise in frustration.) So while Windows Phone 7 doesn't have a general-purpose copy/paste mechanism, it does have some special-purpose mechanisms that are far better than copy/paste for specific tasks.

Does this mean that I never want copy/paste? No, the special-purpose mechanisms don't cover all scenarios. I still occasionally want copy/paste, and it is a shame that Windows Phone 7 won't have it at release. That said, I prefer the Windows Phone 7 approach (avoid making the user need copy/paste in the first place) over the Windows Mobile approach (provide copy/paste as an escape mechanism to make up for bad UI), so I think they made a wise decision to focus on other areas before worrying about copy/paste. Even without copy/paste, my Windows Phone 7 is far more usable than my Windows Mobile 6.5 phone.

Finally, the UI for the phone was designed to be easy to figure out and easy to use in a hurry. Ubiquitous options for copy/paste would take up space in the UI that could be better-used for other purposes. The obvious implementation of copy/paste buttons would present more distraction than value. That's not to say that this can't be solved, but solving it cleanly takes time and effort. It can (and probably will) be solved in the next update of the phone, but it won't be there at launch. Based on my own usage experience and how rarely I want to use copy/paste on my phone, I think it's better to leave it out for version 1 and get it right for version 2 than to screw it up for version 1 and live with the mistake forever. In fact, it might be a good idea to force application developers to live without copy/paste to force them to figure out a better way.

I have similar comments regarding the "lack" of multitasking. The operating system that runs Windows Phone 7 is hard-real-time pre-emptively multi-threaded and is perfectly capable of any kind of multi-tasking you might need. The problem is that all you need to kill the battery on a portable device is one background thread that doesn't quite behave correctly. Because it is so easy to accidentally drain the battery with a background thread, Windows Phone 7 simply doesn't allow 3rd-pary apps to create background threads. However, just like with copy/paste, this isn't the end of the story.

Background threads are a means, not an end. They're a general-purpose mechanism for getting certain kinds of work done, but they aren't the only way or even the best way. Instead of providing APIs for a general-purpose background thread (which is really easy to screw up), Windows Phone 7 provides various specialized APIs (that are harder to screw up and easier for developers to use) by which the an application can achieve many of the sam

Re:It seems to have been the right decision

[ZosX]

Huh? Copy and paste works just fine with text on my g1 and that phone is getting downright ancient by today's standards. Multitasking works fine too and doesn't kill the battery. What kills the battery on phones is not nearly the cpu that runs at 50% at its slowest. The first battery killer is the screen. You can literally watch the battery drain when the screen is at full brightness. Turn it down a notch or so and it gets a lot better. The next serious killer is the radio. Any kind of constant connection with the tower that involves data is sure to drain battery like nothing else. Especially if you are in an area of spotty coverage. I can have 2-3 background processes running and my phone will last for a very long time at idle with the screen off. Any well written service in android should just poll once in a while and that's it. Its too bad there doesn't seem to be any way to incorporate push functionality in android apps, though I could be wrong about that. I know that google talk works on push, but meebo just opens a constant connection. Anyways, I personally see mobile 7 as a pretty big step backwards in a lot of ways for power users. Microsoft once again felt a need to try and copy something and came up with a fairly inferior product IMHO.

Re:It seems to have been the right decision

[MemoryDragon]

Actually the biggest battery killer on android program wise are the task managers, the funny thing is Android really has a sophisticated task management system with various sleep states and programs which can expose what they multitask (sort of what iOS has but much more sophisticated, Apple took a lesson from Android in this regard but implemented only half of what Android provides)

The task killers have a tendency to constantly poll and never sleep you are better off without them.

I love this thread

[symbolset]

Just scanning all this informed and insightful slashdot opinion makes me happy. As Windows Phone 7 is revealed I can only hope that it meets - and even possibly exceeds our expectations. I love this thread so much. The next six months are going to be priceless.

For sure if the marketing efforts keep up with recent history we can look forward to some legendary videos that are in hindsight even better than on release day.

Not sure if srs

[symbolset]

I suspect they started with the price-point "Free with Contract" and delivered as much as they could cutting whatever corners they had to cut to get there.

Kin One - the cheapest of the two - launched at $50 with contract, not "Free with Contract". And the contract required an expensive data plan. The fact that they targeted it at the youth market, and told everybody so, isn't helping. The last think teens want is stuff that's targeted for them. Duh. To paint the current price as the planned price is disingenuous on your part - it's discounted now because it didn't take off and it's better to give the initial production run away than feed them to a chipper. Maybe in a couple weeks they'll pay you to take them.

If you think Kin isn't hurting the Windows Phone 7 brand you're confused. Kin is Windows Phone 7 lite. Kin's complete and utter implosion in the market is a leading indicator of how Windows Phone 7 is going to do once it's released. It's fail. It's epic fail. It's a head-on trainwreck in slow motion with trial lawyers on one train and BP executives on the other - it has us rooting for Newton's laws of motion. It's delicious. The only thing better would be if the Kins start to spontaneously combust.

Obligatory

[jasonwea]

No copy and paste. Fewer apps than an iPhone. Lame.

Windows Mobile 7 sucks

[ZosX]

No cut and paste. No multitasking like Android. Lame.

Bribes

[symbolset]

Apparently, Microsoft is so worried about the lack of developer interest they're offerring substantial incentives to iPhone developers to port their apps. The original source is here. Apparently these incentives are taking the form of prepaid commissions.

Not that it matters. This one is over already, and the product isn't even shipped. Here's the Engadget piece:

The dev that allegedly contacted PocketGamer.biz about the offer turned it down, saying the financial compensation was "substantial" but ultimately not enough for the amount of work he'd have to put into it -- so this might just be a question of how badly Microsoft wants to come roaring out of the gate with a great catalog of apps.

I wonder how many billions they're willing to dump down this hole. I hope we get to find out.

This is like saying...

[jones_supa]

'I think users use headlamps periodically,' said Mercedes-Benz executive, '(but) there's other things they use more frequently.'

The problem you have...

[symbolset]

There's a glitch in your sarcasm detector. You should fix that.

If you do find Microsoft's mobile strategy

[symbolset]

Then please drag it up to Redmond and turn it in. I understand they've lost it, and there's a reward for finding it.

Re: no cut and paste

[Anonymous Coward]

No cut and paste ...hmmm...is this the same as no copy and paste mentioned weeks ago by someone who actually knows what they are talking about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXx9uiGr1_E

Just a Little More Time ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... to steel the code from Apple.

Then to write an Obfusication Patent.

Then to charge for usage.

It's the 80s again!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been a few decades of cut'n'paste. I never did like them. Are they bringing back Microsoft BASIC also?

hi

[helentaylor21]

Thank you for bringing a well thought out and reasoned comment to the discussion. http://latestnewscheck.blogspot.com/2010/06/tel-launches-suns-world-cup-song-from.html

When did the Apple Mac get multitasking?

[Anonymous Coward]

When did the Apple Mac get multitasking? Just asking.

PS WTF is that "we had to have trade-offs" thing? I mean, what was traded for c&p and what was saved by not having c&p?

Too little, too late....

[BulletMagnet]

This guy Myerson certainly has a realistic view of what ultimately the market will think of WinPho7. I've owned units starting at Smartphone 5.0 - WinMo Pro 6.5 units, and over that lifecycle nothing ever jumped out as a gottahaveit feature between any of the versions. The core problem for Microsoft they let the OS rot for years and waited FAR too long to realize this and they needed a reset in the segement, and to fire all the people who were responsible for the impending disaster that will fall on Myerson's head.

To timeline this failure: Apple got into the phoneOS segment in late June 2007 and Google has effectively only been in the phone OS market since late 2008 / Q1 2009....Microsoft? 2000, two years before RIM and more then a half decade before Apple and Google...With a 7 year headstart on two of the major players (Google was still teething in the search engine world, and the ink hadn't been dry for long on the $150M bailout check Microsoft wrote to Apple at the time)....they did very little to keep out front of everyone.

The medium sized GC I work for is a very Microsoft laden shop (phones as well) and as the IT Manager, when we do our EOY hardware refresh for our smartphones, we will phase out our entire WinMo 6.1 fleet for a mix of Android units and iPhones, having already phased out our Blackberries and BES a few years back. I won't look even give 7 anything other then a passing glance if one of our cellular carrier reps is carrying one of these handsets and he/she happens to show it to me. Lack of Cut/Paste is the least of my worries. The fact there's better options out there from the upstart players in the segment....that is what will doom Microsoft here, period. WinPho7 needed to come out 18 months ago when Crossbow (6.0) was ready for the boneyeard if Microsoft to still have remained as a long term phoneOS player but the fumbled around with Photon (the original replacement for 6.x) and eventually canned it. Gates was probably too busy rolling around in his pile of money to kick around the WinMo dev team to stay current or didn't care since he already knew he was set to retire, and Ballmer just doesn't know when he's beat, and Microsoft executives going forward will have a lot smaller piles money to roll around in because of it.

My prediction is unless this launch goes absolutely nuts (as if it was the second coming of the iPhone) and all the handeset OEMs and cell carriers hop on board with both feet (as if they were all suddenly selling iPhones) and that's just not going to happen because WinPho7 will already be 6 months late coming to the 2010 party of the 1st 4G Android phone (Sprint Evo 4G, two weeks ago) and the iPhone 4 release (next week) Microsoft will quietly exit the phone OS market by 2015.

Thanks for playin', Microsoft!

Yeah, freedom is for squares

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah, that whole freedom thing is so passe' I would love to to be forever stuck at the bottom of the pyramid of the chain of authority over a device I BOUGHT AND PAID FOR WITH MY OWN MONEY. Woot. While we are at it, I would just love to have to ask my boss for permission to use the bathroom as well.

MS are copying Apple phone?

[mdwh2]

Indeed. And the funnier thing is to then look at Apple - they actually do release phones that don't even have copy/paste, and portable tablet computers that can only run one application at once, nevermind three. Yet that is not only seen as not a problem here on Slashdot, but you even have people claiming how it's a good thing!

I realise that Slashdot has a slant towards Apple, but I wish they'd at least be a bit more subtle - after years of hyping the Iphone, it's absurd to ridicule Microsoft for lacking the same features.

(Of course, users of Symbian, Blackberry, Android, and indeed every other platform, are allowed to be smug against both the Iphones and Windows phone 7:)

Re:MS are copying Apple phone?

[Cro Magnon]

Indeed. And the funnier thing is to then look at Apple - they actually do release phones that don't even have copy/paste, and portable tablet computers that can only run one application at once, nevermind three. Yet that is not only seen as not a problem here on Slashdot, but you even have people claiming how it's a good thing!

Apple's current phones DO have copy/paste, and their phones & iPads will soon support multitasking. I think Microsoft copied the wrong version of Apple this time.

iPhone 1.0 with a new skin ?

[billcopc]

So they took the old 1.0 iPhone firmware, skinned the chrome like Windows and called it a day ?

file managers are not easy to get right

[Anonymous Coward]

other people have written about how they bought early apple pods and iproducts knowing that the initial shortcomings would be remedied eventually.

perhaps the same should be said for android. although having made it so many versions without a filemanager, i hope they've been really working on perfecting it all this time!

which makes me think, my filemanager of choice, nautilus, yes i like its staggered tight but mesh (like an offset grid) like view, and its was one of the early implementors of svg and scalable icons and very large previews. but nautilus was the product of private investment, i cant of hand remember the name of the company that was formed from apple execs i believe with the sole intent of making a good linux file manager and then going bankrupt, leaving their opensource product which has been maintained and is in quite good shape today. arguably gtk and nautilus is better than the win7 explorer shell and i except perhaps for some kde features is my favourite.

Re:file managers are not easy to get right

[Anonymous Coward]

just to add to the above, i think that a file manager is harder to get right than copy and paste (for some definitions of copy and paste ;P).

so perhaps google has been working on file dialogues and a filemanager but has not yet released it. it is a big question with their chromium too, an os that cannot manage files is either the db of the future if it can actually function in all the ways people require without the folders metaphor, or is going to be second rate.

but its taken this long for apple et al to get this running. (i will mention that copy and paste as the inclusion of an object together with the whole object model is surprisingly complex, but text should be straightforward and present from the start imho).

It's a patent issue...

[SeaCrazy]

...as we all know, Apple invented copy&paste with their iPhone and promptly patented it.
Now no one else can implement it in their OS.

No cut/paste? 1983 called; want their tech back

[Bill Kendrick]

I just used copy-n-paste three times while composing a TXT msg to a friend yesterday. (1) Restaurant's hours that day, (2) Restaurant's street address, (3) Restaurant's website's address (in case she wanted more info). I admit, it was tedious to switch back and forth between browser and message system, and copying text is a bit annoying (though a trackball cursor control helps a lot, since otherwise I'd have to use the touchscreen... I miss styluses :^( ) But I cannot imagine trying to "TYPING" all that crap manually, using the on-screen keyboard!

As much as my Android phone pisses me off (early dev model w/ old OS and slow hardware), I can't imagine the hoops iPhone or Windows users have to go through. (And my old phone was a 'high-tech' BREW handset, which is just a complete joke compared to any of these 'smartphones.' My web browsing and navigation was done the old way: call up someone who was at home in front of their computer and ask them to read stuff to me. :) )

Ramblingly,

-bill!

I will always remember how Steve's keynote started

[Anonymous Coward]

..."and before I begin, I would like to send my warmest thanks to the people from Slashdot who gave us a chance to implement copy and paste. Without their support we would have never ever made it here. You know, the standing on the shoulders of giants thingy..."

Win7 Mobile App Idea Looks Promising

[Anonymous Coward]

Copypasta this:

http://tinyurl.com/vote4wafflefaust