The Recovery Disc Rip-Off

nk497 writes "The chances of finding a recovery disc at the bottom of a PC box is getting slimmer, as vendors instead take the cheaper option of installing recovery software on a hard disk partition, leaving the buyer with no physical copy of the operating system they paid for if (or when) the hard disk fails. Users can burn a backup disc, but many aren't as diligent as they should be. While some PC vendors will offer a free or cheap disc at the time of purchase, buying one — or even tracking one down — after the fact can be expensive and take weeks to arrive. 'I've had a lot of people that have had this problem,' said David Smith, director of independent maintenance company Help With Your PC. 'One customer recently found his hard drive had gone, but by the time he'd paid £50 for the recovery disc, paid for a new hard drive and paid for the labour of installing the device, it made more sense to buy a new machine.'"

Comments

It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Trip6]

That's how close we're watching costs these days?

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[paeanblack]

That's how close we're watching costs these days?

In an industry where one is expected to lower your retails costs by 25% every year simply to stay competitive, I can't say I blame them.

If they could fit enough into the BIOS to have it connect to their servers and redownload your OS in case of drive failure, why the hell not go that route? One less plastic disk the world doesn't need.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Moryath]

I don't see why they don't do this anyways. And they don't need the BIOS to do it.

You have your serial number on the sticker on the box. The OEM license discs won't take the non-OEM serial.

Just publish the ISO image to their FTP site, say "here it is, download/burn it wherever", and be done with it.

The real answer is that their "built-in burn your own backup" software is a ruse: first they fuck you over not including a real recovery disc separate from the hard drive, then the OEMs (Dell especially) spam ads all over the fucking screen about buying the "upgraded backup software which will back up your personal documents" while you wait for it to burn the fucking DVD at 0.5x speeds.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[commodore64_love]

>>>I can't say I blame them.

I can. It's cheaper for them to run-off a million or so DVD Restore Discs, with discounted pricing, then for me to run to the store, buy a DVD blank, and record a restore disc. (That's what my new HP Compaq computer expects me to do.) I'd rather pay an extra 10 cents on the purchase price and get the disc.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[ducomputergeek]

For anyone not Apple. Look at what happened with Dell. Basically since 2005 they made almost nothing on PC sales. Something like 70% of their operating income came from kick backs from Intel. It's one of the reasons why I don't buy PC's these days. It's been a race to the bottom and to see who can cut the most corners without completely going under.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not just the cost of the blank disc. The recovery disc has to be made up with the right mix of bundled software, including a suitably-keyed copy of Windows. That means that they burn a different image for each machined shipped. if they were supplying a FOSS OS and bundle then they could probably use a mass-produced, pressed disc and it would be way cheaper.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

And just how the fuck do you expect a presumably novice computer user to just download an ISO image somewhere and burn it? You might as well tell them to use Linux; it would be just about as useless to them.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[n4f]

If the burn even works. I have a Compaq laptop that came preloaded with Windows Vista. Tried burning the recovery because I wanted to wipe the drive, reclaim my 8 gigs by deleting the recovery partition, and install Ubuntu. It would get through 99% of the burn and then just fail randomly. After going through half a dozen DVD-R's, I just gave up.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Carpathius]

They don't burn a different image for each machine shipped. Not even each model shipped. I recently had to restore two Dell machines. Each came with a base Windows disk with a bunch of different base drivers for a bunch of different machines. Then came the drivers disk, which supported a bunch of different models as well. Each of those two disks probably supported hundreds of different models.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[AltairDusk]

They should just give you the OEM Windows disc and a driver disc with it. Nothing more annoying than the OEM copy of Windows you paid for with the computer being saddled with a mountain of manufacturer-installed crapware every time you install it.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Beale]

A separate bootable internal SSD large enough to hold an image which can do it couldn't be that expensive.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been like this for over 5 years now.

I used to work in shop floor sales/customer service at Staples (UK) - we'd have this problem crop up every few months. HP/Compaq and Emachines/Gateway have both been doing this for donkeys. I don't know if this is still an issue, but the HP ones used to burn a recovery disc without the generic chipset drivers - if you tried to use it after replacing the motherboard, it would just blue screen you.

I'm pretty sure Toshiba included the discs with their laptops, with the machine specific drivers on a second CD. I can't comment on the ACER machines as they turned up after I left the sales floor - I never had to set up a display model or help a customer out with one.

Getting the Masters together for a run of CD's can be expensive, even if the individual discs are cheap. On top of that, the models on sale change pretty frequently, with some machines only selling a handful of units per store over their retail lifetime. I don't know what the vendors license terms are for Windows, but if they have to (or feel they have to, for the non-technical users these machines target) customise the restore process, this probably saves them a few hundred thousand pounds a year. Multiply that by the number of regional variants they produce, and it starts racking up pretty quickly.

Given that margins on computers are pretty thin, unless your name is 'Apple' or 'Sony', that saving's going to look very appetising.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it costs them a shitload more than 10 cents, or they would just include it. Most places let you buy recovery media at time of purchase for $5 to $10, if you'd prefer to go that route then feel free.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[hesaigo999ca]

I agree with you, too may times people (administration) cut costs where they think they can do without, IT, and leave the IT admins holding the bag, so IT admins figure, dealing with burning all those dvds is an extra cost and burden when you can just add an image on the disk while installation for the restore operation and avoid extra costs.

The real ones left holding the bag is US, the consumer, who mostly never knows his *ss from his elbow when it comes to buying a pc and configuring it. I work in IT so I know to ask for the OEM each time I buy upfront so they know they are not getting away with it, futureshop or bestbuy give you THEIR copy and you must do the whole process, the only thing is non OEM serials don't work for OEMs but you just have to call MS with your serial number and they give you a new one for the oem version, which most people do not know they can do.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's how close we're watching costs these days?

No - this is part of "encouraging" people to buy a new PC instead of fixing their old PC. Today, I am finding people that are throwing away dual and quad core PCs because the repair costs are so high.

Microsoft go out of their way to ensure that refurbishers can't just reinstall the original version of Windows. They make it difficult for consumers to reimage their PCs easily.

If they did that, who would buy a new PC?

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[BlitzTech]

Just for clarification, this means you build your own systems, right? I'd hate to think any self-respecting geek was using hardware from pre-2005. Intel hadn't even started selling their Core series of processors - do you REALLY want to be using a Pentium these days?

</friendlyjab>

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[shawn(at)fsu]

It all depends on you're point of view.

From your point of view yes it would be cheaper for them to do it. From their point of view it's always cheaper to push the cost off on to the consumer. Esp when you figure how many people don't bother asking for a restore disk and you also figure they don't have to worry about being the bad guy beucase all teh other big companies do the same thing.

I had to spend 30 minutes with Dell to get them to send me the OS restore disk. Their excuse was I couldn't use it since I dont have a dvd drive in the netbook. I responded with if that was the case why did you send my a driver disk and a ms office dvd. After a few moments of silence they said they would send it out asap. Got it the next business day.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[interval1066]

In my opinion its not much of an effort to simply burn the driver directory on to a cd or dvd, Its really not THAT BIG a deal. And even if you aren't diligent, then there's always the device manufacturer's web site. I'm in an even better position because I blow off Windows and run Linux anyway; it has all its own drivers.

Cutting down on the clutter is a good thing. I already have to attack consumer electronics items with a very sharp knife to open the packaging, often cutting my self in the process, and leaving behind the guts of several layers of plastic packaging. I recently bought a new asus netbook; the entire product took the form of the netbook and a wall power adapter. Even so I ended up with like 7 boxes or cardboard forms. I could do with less dvds at least.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[quantumplacet]

Having spent more time than I'd care to think about digging through those backup DVDs for drivers, they generally only support one model, occasionally two or three. The reason there are so many drivers on the disc is because a given model usually has dozens of different configuration options, eg 4 or 5 different graphics cards, 3 or 4 different NICs, etc. However, each disc is usually locked to a single model, and does some sort of check that prevents it from running on any other model even if it has all the necessary drivers.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[jedidiah]

> And just how the fuck do you expect a presumably novice computer user to just download an ISO image somewhere and burn it? You might as well tell them to use Linux; it would be just about as useless to them.

If the old OS is any good, it will be made easy for him.

If the old OS is crap, then he's got extra incentive to dump it.

There is no good reason why burning an ISO in 2010 should be hard in any OS.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[jedidiah]

Well then Dell is doing at least something better than Apple.

I have 3 different varieties of Mini. 2 of them have the same GPU. Each has it's own version of the recovery disk.

It's f*cking annoying.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[index0]

Aol must have been rolling in the money to give free cds away.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

This assumes the user has a working internet connection.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Lumpy]

I have a better idea.. Why make DELL eat the cost. Microsoft can get off their asses and ship dell 22 billion OS install DVD's Those asshats are raking in the money faster.. How about dell having the balls to tell MSFT to shove it and supply install Discs.

Honestly Michael Dell rolls over for Ballmer every time. Get some ca-hones Mikey! Microsoft will feel it pretty hard if you tell them to go pound sand.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Low Ranked Craig]

It's easy in WIndows if you know what software to download, assuming that you know that you need to. On a Mac it's brain dead easy since the software is included.

Regardless, for me this sums it up

but many aren't as diligent as they should be.

This applies to a great many people in pretty much all areas of life.

Personally I haven't lost any data since the early 90's. I back up continuously, I manually back up selected files to another drive, I periodically burn current versions of my important stuff to DVD, and I make a full system back up to yet another drive that I keep with me in case my house burns down or someone steals my gear. My data is irreplaceable, and other than my dogs is my most valuable possession. If people are to ignorant / lazy to protect themselves, well, then, sucks being them if it all goes tits-up.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Lumpy]

Actually no. I was going to build my own system for my video editor replacement. But I could not touch the price of buying a prebuilt ASUS PC and the parts to upgrade it.

for the exact same hardware I could not buy my i7 processor, motherboard, and 8 gig of ram for the price of the same + case+DVD drive+1TB hard drive + Win7 license..

Either Newegg is price gouging, or the pc makers are really undercutting everyone. Plus I got a Win7 OEM license I was able to sell for $100.00... Oh and ASUS gives you a Microsoft OS install DVD.. and the COA sticker peels off easily because it was too new to set.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[LVSlushdat]

The company I used to work for bought Dell exclusively (Optiplex GX-series towers). Since we had our own Acronis SnapDeploy image we apply to each machine during acceptance, we always ordered the machines specifically withOUT the recovery media. There is a checkbox in the online order form for that very choice.. Guess what? every flippin' machine on every order since I started working there over 5 years ago, came with an XP-Pro "green" recovery disk or recently, a brown Vista/Win7 DVD. Before I left the company I had a stack of those disks about a foot high.... Go figure...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[socz]

You made me put down my breakfast for this!

"The same way they "fix" their computers: they ask their resident IT advisor to do it for them"

Seriously...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Replying to my own post here.
I doubt anyone's reading at zero, but just in case :-

The reason we ran into this problem is that windows is not fully configured on a new retail machine. It actually completes the install process the first time the user starts the machine - in theory. In practice, we'd get someone every few weeks with a HP laptop who tried to start the machine without connecting the charger first, or turned it on to see if it worked, and turned it straight back off again. In both cases, the loss of power before the install completed trapped the machine - the installer had marked the install as finished when it clearly wasn't.

On subsequent startups, Windows would try to load, fail, and restart the process. If you tried to use the restore partition to recover the machine, it would still try to start the base install as a step in that - and as a result it became impossible to start or recover the machine without third party tools.

Of course, retail's a fast moving environment, and we didn't normally have the time to try and fix it. We'd just replace the machine (assuming it was returned within the DOA period) and send the dud one back to HP.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Aliotroph]

Dell learned the hard way about cutting out the discs. They never shipped one-button recovery discs like Compaq used to. Instead it was always the Windows disc, the "Dell Resource CD" and some more driver/software discs.

In 2005 or 2006, I forget which year, they stopped shipping the discs by default because they decided the built-in recovery worked well enough. I started working there in 2006 and they realized they needed to start shipping discs again. We used them for fixing problems or of course just reinstalling when all was lost, so we ended up sending them out like candy. If we needed to use one and we realized the customer had an old version of the XP disc without the latest service packs we would send a new one. We also sent them if the customer asked.

Why Dell didn't also supply discs that did what the recovery partition did I can't guess accurately. They never seemed to mind sending out endless replacements for the numerous discs you needed to do everything manually (assuming they had discs available).

I haven't used a new Dell machine since 2008, so I can't say anything accurate about what they include now.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Ephemeriis]

If they could fit enough into the BIOS to have it connect to their servers and redownload your OS in case of drive failure, why the hell not go that route?

That assumes you're going to have working bandwidth when you need to reload your computer.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[whoever57]

but many aren't as diligent as they should be.

Or, as in the case of a laptop I bought recently for work, it simply won't burn the recovery disks. I tried several times, with media from two different (high quality) brands. It failed every time.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mlts]

Lets go 1-2 steps past that, and how about put a read-only image of the OS CDs into Flash storage on the motherboard, preferably with some sort of jumper to prevent it from being overwritten by malware? The next step is not to just offer OS restore capabilities, but a full recovery toolkit, from being able to save data off by files or images (and allow CDs/DVDs/BD-R media, external HDDs, and even NFS or Samba shares), load a Windows PE environment for antivirus scanning, etc.

Everyone would benefit from this type of system: Tech can just boot into the recovery part, run an A/V scanner and clean the machine offline. Users could easily reinstall, or save off data. Users also wouldn't have to worry about activating their copy of Windows, nor worrying if they had the right media. And PC companies would need to ship less with machines. All around win for everyone.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[BlitzTech]

Sad fact - it's cheaper to buy a prebuilt from Dell or Asus and cannibalize it for parts, swapping in stuff you want, than buying everything individually.

I buy all my stuff from Dell then swap it out into something worthwhile. Cheaper that way.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Spillman]

However, each disc is usually locked to a single model, and does some sort of check that prevents it from running on any other model even if it has all the necessary drivers.


You are correct! On HP and Toshiba models this is referred to as Tattooing. If you ever had your motherboard replaced with a different model, you would have to have your new board retattooed, however, both HP and Toshiba keep the DMI (tatooing) utilities locked up, so you may have trouble getting them if you aren't an authorized service provider. :)

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mlts]

The stickler in this is that crapware merchants pay PC vendors to have their stuff shoveled onto machines, so it will be present everywhere unless one installs from true OS media. So shipping true Windows media isn't in the PC company's best interest because it means fewer installs and fewer chances of getting handed cash when someone upgrades or activates the crapware.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Pollardito]

The truth is they don't want you to have a disc that you can use to easily do a clean install in order to remove the crapware they shipped on the PC. Recovery partitions let you recover the base installation including all the crapware, Windows OS discs let you do a clean install.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's how close we're watching costs these days?

No - this is part of "encouraging" people to buy a new PC instead of fixing their old PC. Today, I am finding people that are throwing away dual and quad core PCs because the repair costs are so high.

Microsoft go out of their way to ensure that refurbishers can't just reinstall the original version of Windows. They make it difficult for consumers to reimage their PCs easily.

If they did that, who would buy a new PC?

Exactly why I've started a business picking up these "bad" machines, doing a refurb on them, putting Ubuntu on them and selling them.. Makes a nice tidy second income...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Fishchip]

Ahh, because on an emachine an SSD won't affect the cost at all.

Might as well just give them a thumb drive with the image and say good luck.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[talz13]

No, it doesn't. If I can buy a 100 pack of DVDRs and burn one for $0.50, they can buy 1 million DVDRs and burn one for $0.05. They've already paid for the license, so why won't they give you a frickin' disc?

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[MonChrMe]

Cost of designing the machine to use such an SSD, yet keep it hidden from Joe Average (If he sees it, he'll break it somehow) without compromising system performance or stability, then manufacture and integrate this hardware solution into every single machine you build? The current system achieves more or less the same effect (most reinstalls are due to software issues - it's cheaper to tell the user to reinstall than actually spend time troubleshooting it), but with the visibility problems already solved. As a software solution, it's also going to be *much* cheaper than any hardware solution. More expensive is already too expensive.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

An internal SSD is going to be cheaper that just supplying a fucking cd? Really?!

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mlts]

You hit the nail on the head right there. Consumer PC making has become a race to the bottom, putting all but the big guys who can cut the most corners out of business.

Want a good PC? One has to do one of three things: Build their own machine from known good parts, buy business line models (Optiplexes, Latitudes, Precisions), or buy Apple.

For a nontechnical customer, it gets even harder, because they don't have the expertise to build their own stuff. Here, it is either find someone trustworthy to build a machine for them, or pay the Apple Tax for a machine + AppleCare for decent technical support.

This is why Apple is succeeding in a market where everything else is stagnating, just because they offer plain old fashioned customer service. A musician who doesn't have much computer savvy can call Apple and have them figure out an issue, regardless of if it is with the Mac hardware, OS X, or Logic Studio. A photographer can do similar with Aperture. Someone doing production video work has a glitch with Final Cut Studio? One 800 number, and no worry about being shoved from company to company.

Until other PC vendors understand that customer service is as important as the hardware itself, Apple will continue to eat their marketshare. And it doesn't seem that they will be getting this anytime soon, from the looks of things.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[NotBornYesterday]

I'll bet it's more expensive than just shipping a $.05 DVD, and the manufacturers won't even do that.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[petermgreen]

In my opinion its not much of an effort to simply burn the driver directory on to a cd or dvd
It isn't that much of an effort but it's easy to overlook. Especially given that every manufacturer does it differently.

The drivers aren't generally that big an issue since as you say you can usually get them from the manufacturers website. The problem is windows. If you are a tech (either employee or contracted) for a company that has a volume lincese and the volume license either covers the machine or reimage rights apply then it's not an issue because you just reinstall with your volume license media and key.

The problem comes if you have to reinstall machines for home users or small buisness who don't have volume licenses. You can't just go using your own keys on machines you aren't going to control (both for legal and practical reasons). Sometimes you can reinstall from a generic windows CD and activate but while that works for some people others report refusals to accept the key or activation problems after doing so.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[archangel9]

It's easy in WIndows if you know what software to download, assuming that you know that you need to. On a Mac it's brain dead easy since the software is included.

Windows 7 lets you double-click on an ISO and it automatically comes up with built-in burning software. I do it all the time with Technet stuff and haven't had a bad image or a coaster yet.
Download ISO - double click - load DVD - click "burn" - done.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Machtyn]

It really is a hassle. I charge a flat rate to do an OS reinstall even though I know I will usually get less for the time I spent on it than what my hourly charge is advertised as. But I'm in to treating my customers right. Still, there are times when even that price is too much for them and they'd rather get a new computer. (and as a good business person, I offer to transfer files for them.)

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[sajuuk]

Because that completely screws over anyone on a network where you have to authenticate to get a network connection. I.E., colleges that have NAC.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[frosty_tsm]

If the burn even works. I have a Compaq laptop that came preloaded with Windows Vista. Tried burning the recovery because I wanted to wipe the drive, reclaim my 8 gigs by deleting the recovery partition, and install Ubuntu. It would get through 99% of the burn and then just fail randomly. After going through half a dozen DVD-R's, I just gave up.

I had this happen with an HP too.

On a side note, I ended up giving it away. It overheated too much and would freeze or shutdown. I had to use external cooling from an over-sized fan with everything placed next to the window on a cold night. The recipient placed in on two ice packs for setting up Windows.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mcgrew]

Well, a recovery disk wouldn't do my netbook much good...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[petermgreen]

Dell are pretty good about this afaict. They provide proper install CDs (not recovery crap) and the bios keying only checks the machine is a dell. The OS and driver CDs are seperate (though I belive they may integrate some AHCI/RAID drivers in the OS cds they certainly don't integrate a full set of drivers).

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[commodore64_love]

>>>From their point of view it's always cheaper to push the cost off on to the consumer.

It's also probably "cheaper" for them if my computer develops a hard sector error within three years, and being like the typical consumer I didn't create a restore DVD, so I have to go-out and buy a whole new machine in 2013.

So the PC manufacturer is saving more than just 10 cents by not printing a restore disc... they are gaining a future sale of at least $300.00

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[TheThiefMaster]

It's easy in WIndows if you know what software to download, assuming that you know that you need to. On a Mac it's brain dead easy since the software is included.

Windows 7 can burn ISOs out of the box. As it's the most-sold version of Windows at the moment, making an ISO of the recovery disk available would work.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mlts]

Even Microsoft has gotten wind of this. When one installs Windows 7, and even Vista, the user is prompted to back their stuff up periodically. Usually by an image backup, then file by file incrementals, with prompting for a new image every six months. Windows server operating systems go one step further by allowing for full and incremental imaging so a restore is quite easy. Macs have Time Machine which makes backups trivial given a NAS or an external HDD. Combine this with Mozy or Carbonite, and a home user's data is protected from almost any disaster.

The problem? Users don't have any training or knowledge about backups, and some just don't care because they think their computer-savvy friend will be able to undo any damage. The average /. reader is savvy at this, but the average Joe or Jane on the streets has no clue. You ask them to take a level 0 dump on their machine, and they will look at you funny, the proceed to completely soil their computer and desk. When in college, it was crazy how many people stored their only working copies of their critical documents on a single USB flash drive. Of course this meant they almost had to be put in straitjackets and packed off to the suicide prevention ward when their flash drive gets lost, starts having I/O errors, or their file accidentally gets deleted. When I finished up college, what I used was a SanDisk Cruzer Titanium Plus, which had a cloud backup utility built into the U3 panel. This, plus the fact that I had a utility that backed the drive up daily to the college's Samba server worked out until I finished school, and the backup utility was abandoned by Sandisk a few months later.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

In an industry where one is expected to lower your retails costs by 25% every year simply to stay competitive, I can't say I blame them.

Am I really the only one who would rather they put prices up by 25%, but supplied reliable hardware and a clean OS installation with original media?

I would be perfectly willing to pay a higher price in exchange for good quality products, where the hardware doesn't fail after only a year or two, the drivers don't get abandoned because a new OS I don't care about came out six months later, the software doesn't routinely crash or leak sensitive data, etc. Unfortunately, hardly anyone in this business seems to make such products any more.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mlts]

It is a whole ecosystem all benefiting from the cluelessness of the end user.

PC company doesn't ship media, so when (not if) the user gets an infection, they have to either hit Geek Squad, some other computer place, or if lucky a clued friend and have to pay both labor charges and re-buy a copy of Windows, Office, and the other applications. Of course, said places NEVER tell the user that they should buy a backup device and some utility like Retrospect (as well as burn a recovery CD), so when the next malware hits, it is the same crap all over again.

For people reading /., this isn't an issue... something happens, you grab a recovery CD, bare metal restore from the NAS head, or an external drive.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[bws111]

Spoken like someone with no idea of what is involved in a manufacturing process.

You have to qualify the blanks (make sure they are up to your standards, not some cheapo WalMart disk that will lose data in a couple of years). That is cost

You have to have a supplier to get you the qualified blanks. That is cost.

You have to store the blanks somewhere. That is cost.

You have to get the blanks to the burners. That is cost.

You have to burn the blanks. That is cost.

You have to purchase and store sleeves for the disks. That is cost.

You have to get the sleeves to the disks and insert the disks. That is cost.

You have to store the disk/sleeve assemblies somewhere. That is cost.

You have to secure the disks. That is cost.

You have to have logistical tracking of the disks. That is cost.

You have to get the disks and sleeves to the shipping area and get the correct disk inserted in the box. That is cost.

You have to be prepared to handle complaints about the disks. That is cost.

You have to be prepared to ship replacement disks (warranty). That is cost.

And after you do all that, you have to ask - how many more sales is that cost going to generate? Should I spend the same money on something that may actually result in a sale?

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[BrokenHalo]

Recovery is best done in the absence of Windows anyway. After all, if a machine has been rooted, for instance, most non-savvy users can't depend on having any worthwhile recovery afterwards, or any safe connection to the rest of the world.

Any Linux install disc can be used as a liveCD (or of course you can use something like Knoppix as a more intuitive alternative if you prefer). Then, having recovered your data, it makes sense to just continue the process: wipe your partitions, install Linux in whatever flavour you like and live happily ever after.

Actually, this reminds me, I'd better make myself a new Arch Linux install disc. That rolling-release thingy means never having to reinstall, so my old boot disc is scratched to hell from being used as a coaster for years. Funny to remember that 15 years ago, I used to use the first floppy from that huge stack of Slackware discs. [Yorkshire accent:] Them were the days...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[couchslug]

"Today, I am finding people that are throwing away dual and quad core PCs because the repair costs are so high."

More free Ubuntu boxes for me. Computers are as disposable as a toaster, but I like free toasters.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[WheelDweller]

No, it's really not.

Running Ubuntu Linux would be even cheaper, since no A/V software is needed and you won't be taking the box to a snot-nosed kid who'll search your drive for porn while charging $100 to remove the virus that software misses.

I know this; I worked at a PC repair depot. Recently.

To make things worse, you wouldn't NEED a backup disk for Ubuntu Linux. You usually run it until the drive dies, not the next crash.

When we DO care, we'll see even more desktop conversions.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[FreonTrip]

I'm self-respecting, but my HTPC features a Celeron e1500 living in an i865G motherboard with 2 gigs of DDR400 and integrated video. :P That's 2003 tech - the almighty fury of its DirectX 7 graphics even predates that - but for 720p playback, general web browsing, and all things Netflix it's been completely fine. The allure of a PCIe/DDR2 motherboard's finally getting too hard to resist), but I still plan to use the old hardware for a spare system and occasional dedicated server afterward.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[darrylo]

My old Asus 1005HA netbook actually came with a recovery CD, even though it doesn't come with an optical drive.

And, yes, I have used it, and it worked well (after buying an external DVD drive, of course).

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[BlitzTech]

Heh, sounds like my SNES9x box. Pentium 3 500MHz, 512mb ram (upgraded!), and a top of the line Geforce Ti4400. Works great for my homemade SNES controllers plugged in to the LPT port!

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[|TheMAN]

Any Windows 7 discs take OEM and retail product keys (pertinent to that edition), unless it's the Enterprise version (which accepts ONLY MAK/KMS keys). The Pro version also accepts KMS keys.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[TheSambassador]

Windows actually comes with "ISO Image Burner" integrated into 7. It'd be realllly easy.

But... even when the manufacturer TELLS people straight up to burn the backup DVD with the provided software, most people just don't do it. I don't see why they'd be more likely to burn an image that they'd have to download it.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Sabriel]

And yet somehow my local chain store can sell me a DVD movie complete with plastic case and fancy jacket for under ten bucks... and profit from it.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[commodore64_love]

>>>You have to store the blanks somewhere. That is cost.

Eliminate the worthless paper/advertising they bundle with PCs ("get 10 free songs from itunes! Sign now!") and then use that space to store the Restore DVDs in the warehouse. As for all that other nonsense you mentioned, like verifying the disc, packaging, et cetera, the DVD duplicator does it all for you.

COST - 5 cents per disc

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mlts]

+1. Even if the cost was 50% more so the PC makers can actually provide the following:

A decent quality level of components. Caps ready to bust are so 2000-2002.
A level of phone tech support that is decent (no script readers that hang up on the customer if they can't find where to go on the flowchart).
Printed manuals. PDF files don't do squat when there is no machine to read them.
CD-ROM media, as well as read-only USB flash drives so machines without CD-ROM drives can be recovered.

Ideally, a purchased PC should have:

Hardware RAID (not hardware-assisted RAID), and two mirrored drives for the boot OS. This way, Joe Sixpack can lose a drive, but still be able to browse his pr0n.
A decent power supply that is way underused so it can run quietly.
A drive (or mirrored drives) which are used by a preinstalled backup program for nightly backups. This way, Joe Sixpack can be told to "put recovery disk in the drive, boot, click 'restore', go to the sports bar, and after a few Bud Lights [1], it should be back to where it was before the data loss."

I sort of miss the days where computer shops were Mom and Pop businesses similar to how bike shops are today. It wasn't perfect, but there was something about having someone to physically come to, should computer problems happen, that made those shops worth patronizing. The closest thing we have these days to this is the Genius Bar at the Apple Store.

[1]: Using beers as a temporal unit isn't exactly a precise way of doing things, but explaining to someone that setting up backup software and installing an external HDD is a one beer job, versus a reinstall which is a five beer activity gets the point across.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

That said, why does Lenovo need to charge $50 in the case that the disk needs to be sent out to the customer? THey should allow it to be downloaded for free, or give the disk out for what it costs rather than make it a profit center.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Why don't they just make a restore partition with a minimal OS that can mount an ISO file and (re)install from that ? If you want to reclaim space, burn the ISO and delete the partition. Best of both worlds.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[|TheMAN]

And yet, OEMs like HP expect you to burn the 3-4 disc recovery media set as soon as you buy their crappy netbook. How the hell am I supposed to do that with no DVD burner equipped in the system (not a single removable media drive, period)? So they expect me to spend another 40-50 bucks for a USB burner, PLUS another 10-20 bucks for DVD-Rs just so I can have my recovery discs!

That's fine that the system doesn't come with any sort of CD/DVD drive, but don't hide the fact I have to spend another 40-60 bucks right after I open the box, have to waste time driving back to the store to get what I need to make the recovery discs. Just give me the PRESSED recovery discs that won't ever degrade (like burnable media do) and I can go buy a USB burner drive on my sweet time (like when the HDD fails)!

This exact problem came up recently with a friend that just bought an HP netbook. It gets better, the built in utility says you can only make the media once (Toshiba's OTOH lets you use it as many times as you want, though they are just as guilty as HP for not providing the discs out of the box), so just hope you didn't burn a coaster! Anyway, since it's a netbook, there's obviously no optical drive of any sort. The chick didn't even know what a USB CD-ROM drive was! Well since she was leaving town the next day, wanted to use the shiny new computer, but also make sure that she can fix her computer if it blows up, I had to think of something fast. The quick and dirty solution? I downloaded a trial copy of Virtual CD, mounted a "DVD-R" in the virtual burner drive, and let the stupid recovery utility "burn" to an ISO. Then I copied the ISOs across the network onto my laptop and burned from there. Not very efficient but it got the job done. Took hours this way. I left the ISOs on the HDD in case she ever needs to reburn them again, and gave the middle finger salute to HP and the cyberlink recovery disc creator.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[sorak]

To add a ten-year old gripe to that, why is it that the web browser and the media player are "part of the operating system", but hardware support for CD burning didn't come along until XP, and support for common cd standards, such as ISO format still hasn't become common?

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mlts]

The trick with those is to buy a U3 flash drive, use some black magic to make the ISO image be OS boot media, copy the other stuff to the data partition, and use that for recovering the netbook. I've done this with some Windows servers which are sans an optical drive.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[camperslo]

It's only in the PC vendors "best interests" to load machines with crapware if customers keep buying them. If massive numbers of customers tell them they're going to go to another PC vendor or Apple (!!!) maybe they'll respond.

I regret buying a Dell monitor. It's not so much because the inverter makes squealing noises occasionally (I did buy it because it was cheap), but they've been persistently spamming both my email and snail mail. Apple doesn't do that to their customers, why should Dell get away with it?

When voting with your wallet, be sure to tell the distributor/vendor that lost the sale WHY they lost it. With enough feedback maybe they'll improve.

I'm not too optimistic about PC vendors being able to pull of something really major like a new OS, but if they really listen to complaining customers they should at least lessen a few pains.

Since they distribute a customized version of Windows anyway, and have bulk licensing, why can't they have a modified Windows distribution that recognizes a valid range of hardware serials from the BIOS (or use CPU sn or MAC address) and installs without bothering the user for a key?

Wondering if Dell and NBC secretly share managers...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[sorak]

At my workplace, when we moved to a windows 2000 active directory layout, we had several pcs that had Windows XP home edition on them. Our sysadmin found that it was cheaper, in most cases to buy a new PC, that came with the professional edition of either XP or Vista, than it was to buy just the XP/Vista license. Of course, he was obsessed with ubid.com, so he probably found several deals that the normal person may not find.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Believe it or not I sent a string of emails to Gateway asking for an original Windows 7 disk because my "make your own restore disk" or whatever Windows calls it resulted in a trash can full of DVDs. The end result was they mailed me four DVDs (Or CDs not sure). The squeaky wheel...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[atlasdropperofworlds]

> It's easy in WIndows if you know what software to download

I just checked. I have Win7 Pro and it brings up the disc burning interface when I open an ISO. I haven't installed any software to do this.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[rubycodez]

yes, and somehow the dollar store sells re-pressings of older TV movies on DVD for $1 a piece, and profits from it.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to buy the business line, Vostro on up. They come with a clean install disk, JUST WINDOWS! It's a large reason I keep buying.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Profane MuthaFucka]

If they cut the CD to accomplish their 25% cut this year, then we can safely say that next year they won't be reaching their goal.

If anybody were honest, they'd be selling their fucking HP and Dell stock.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[jdcope]

What about netbooks with no optical drive at all? My Acer netbook didnt come with recovery discs, but came with a utility to *burn* recovery discs. How is the normal user supposed to do that without an optical drive? Fortunately I had a friend with an external dvd burner.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[PinkyGigglebrain]

For some people the answer to that is a big "Yes".
.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[MogNuts]

There is no need to spend a $500-1000 premium just because you want recovery disks. Disks are available from certain vendors. Purchase your machine from those vendors. Don't spend $1000 more when you can just spend $20 for a recover disk (or worst case, an OEM version of Win7 for $100).

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[misexistentialist]

90% of PC buyers are probably impressed by the crapware. Even if they weren't there really isn't any choice. PC makers compete as little as possible, mostly on crapware-subsidized pricing, and Apple at double the price is in a different class. As for Dell spamming you, have you tried the unsubscribe link? Because spam is also quite normal.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are buying the parts form new egg at retail prices, while companies such as Asus get huge discounts due to selling at volumn.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mlts]

When you see PHBs, they tend to work the same regardless of business. One can consider it echos of a hive mind, or perhaps the biological equivalent of UNIX hard links where it appears to be a different person, but the same mentality -- MBA, but absolutely no grasp of basic ITIL concepts. It will be the same behavior everyone ones looks, next quarter's sales figures über alles.

Until this attitude is changed in business, the "lost decade" of America will continue.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[tresho]

Good point about the increased reliability of a 'pressed' recovery disk vs. a home-burned one. I have never had a pressed disk go bad, but have had plenty of home-brewed ones do that, of all degrees of quality. I have also tried to burn a recovery DVD immediately after starting a new laptop, had that operation fail, and then discovered I could not make a second attempt. I had to pay the manufacturer for their pressed recovery DVD in addition to the price of the new laptop.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[jedidiah]

Go to Target and spend $60. (or not)

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude. You're brilliant ....

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Zerth]

Plus, the customer will lose the first disc anyway, so why send it in the first place?

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[cayenne8]

"Today, I am finding people that are throwing away dual and quad core PCs because the repair costs are so high."

Hmm...where would one find people 'throwing out' said machines???

:)

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Nimey]

Burning an ISO is dead easy in Windows 7 with the included tools.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mlts]

The premium isn't just for disks. It would also be for better CS, better packaging, better components, and just a higher grade of machine overall. For example, I have PSUs on some mass-produced machines which are just downright embarrassing. By replacing them with decent Corsairs, I'm sure I almost doubled the life of the machine.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[nigelo]

In my opinion its not much of an effort to simply burn the driver directory on to a cd or dvd, Its really not THAT BIG a deal.

Well, my notebook has no CD or DVD drive, so it's a big deal for me...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Mage Powers]

I installed vista with a retail dvd using the key on the bottom of my HP DV6000 series laptop, I had to call the number to activate windows, but it worked and was worth the 10mins spent calling them up.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it doesn't cost them a "shitload" more than 10 cents. They merely do not include it because they can sell them for 5$ to 10$ if they don't.

A quick google search finds that manufacturing 10,000 retail ready DVD's costs 48c each.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[sjames]

There was a time when we understood that a competition to see who can be the chintziest was not a good thing.

This is exactly why so many people have said that the world will go to hell if we let accountants run it.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

No surprise, Compaq is an HP brand. And from what I see, HP are below average in quality. About as crap as Acer.

Dell is in the middle - definitely not great but not as crap as HP.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Lennie]

1. I don't think Microsoft would like it.
2. Bandwidth at large amounts costs money too

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Vectormatic]

my eee-pc (the original 701) came with a recovery disc... that doesnt make sense either

My buest suggestion would be for asus to include a SD card (probably only need a 512mb one, or 1gb tops) with the reinstall stuff on there, given that the eee does have an SD slot, and is able to boot from it.

However, that would cost quite a lot more then just stuffing a CD in there and letting the customer figure it out

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[VinylPusher]

What makes you think this wouldn't be expensive? SSD's are inherently expensive.

Anyway, I have little sympathy with users who don't have a clue how to work a computer properly. Either they should clue up, or be happy to pay through the nose when stuff goes wrong which they don't know how to fix. That's the harsh reality of life.

I couldn't fix my car myself, so I'd have to pay out to get it sorted by a professional (or even a non-pro who knew enough to get the job done).

Sure, OEM's are taking liberties by charging stupidly high amounts for retrospective supply of recovery disks, but they're only charging what people are willing to pay.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[ukyoCE]

One disk? The last HP I helped setup required burning 4 recovery DVDs. Which were actually included in the box. Remember, you don't just need room for the OS, you need room for another 3 disks of shovelware.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes well, there's a bigger problem than that. I recently used the built-in windows 7 backup system to back up a friend's machine for her. It backed up the system, and some of her personal files. Not a single audio file was backed up, however. Numerous video files (though not all) were also conspicuously omitted from this windows "backup" which claimed to be able to back up everything (and was carefully set up to do so).

Were the files in question flagged as "copyright infringing"?

In any event, after I showed this to my windows-using friend she asked me, "is there anything I can use which is easy like windows but doesn't try to police me?". I installed Ubuntu 10.04 and she's very happy with her system now. Of course I had to set up the support for her verizon USB modem, printer, wireless, phone, iPod, and camera. None but the iPod presented any real issue (FOSS iPod management appears to be in a sad state, unless you have a rockbox-compatible model). She said she hardly uses the iPod anyway, she's been using her phone for music.

So, as an advocate of FOSS I applaud this "backup fraud" as well as the "recovery disk rip off". Just keep driving those users this way...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mister_playboy]

Might as well just give them a thumb drive with the image and say good luck.

You need a hell of a lot less luck to install from a USB stick than from a DVD. Install discs have always been difficult to burn because of all the small files, and DVD-R are still too expensive to waste. Only the clueless should be trying to install from spinning disks these days... USB install is the way to go.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mlts]

I really don't get why Microsoft has different backup programs in different OS editions. This is why I tell people to go with a third party solution because regardless of what type of Windows edition, Retrospect or Acronis will back it up, and allow for a complete restore.

This sounds like she had Windows 7 Home Premium, because the backup utility does not do a complete WIM image of the system, but copies document files off to an external drive. However, the edition of Windows shouldn't determine how well one is protected when disaster happens.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[ImNotAtWork]

People who do not know how to swap out Video cards are a good source of these machines.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

uh.. double click on the iso in windows 7?

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[MogNuts]

Incorrect.

Better CS:
Debateable. I had a great experience with a Gateway (*gasp*) years back. My machine was DOA. Had real American techs, and sent me a brand new entire unit, no questions asked. Apple: I hardly call driving to the store and getting a refurb'd unit better CS. Besides, pay $200 extra and you can get business support which kicks Apple's ass and they come to your freaking house next day. Hmm, $200 extra vs. $1000. Tough choice.

Better packaging:
Worth a $1000 premium? Nope. Besides, e.g. HP Envy if you want it for waaaaay cheaper.

Better components:
Wrong. Uses the same components as any other PC. PC even wins more because you can build a custom computer with every better component your heart desires. Fail 1000% here.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

CD burners while they existed in 98 were like $300+ dollars and considered a nice to have. This is why large capacity disk makers like zip drive had a market for a while as a cheaper solution to cd burning. Though maybe you're talking about something else... I didn't think XP had anything to do with hardware support since it is OS or software support. Shouldn't really matter the hardware configuration of your machine as long as you can find software device drivers.

On the ISO thing, got nothing, that's stupid to not support.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Fallingcow]

Yours too? I've got an HP Pavilion DV6000-series that's nearly as bad. If I don't prop the back end up (the fans point down and to the back, rather than just back--WTF sense does that make???) it overheats and shuts down if I play a flash video in full screen. Hell, sometimes it does anyway. It's a pretty high-end laptop, or was at the time, but gaming is only a possibility in the winter with the thermostat set on 60.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[the_B0fh]

because most people are morons, and think having seen a supply/demand graph once, they can comment on economics. The OP apparently does not even understand there is no such thing as "burning" for pressed CDs, nor do you do any validation, etc, beyond the normal QA. But what do you expect from the random peanut gallery eh?

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Am I really the only one who would rather they put prices up by 25%, but supplied reliable hardware and a clean OS installation with original media?

25%, eh? Probably too low. I do this kind of work sometimes, but I can't order the parts for 25% over Dell's cost, much less make any profit at it.

It's about double for a similarly-sounding spec. The desktop is low-end. My storage servers pants the big guys on price, though - they're rolling in the dough on those.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[raitchison]

Our latest Dell and HP notebooks include a DisplayPort instead of an HDMI port which the previous models featured, apparently PC makers have to pay something like $0.06 per machine in royalties to include HDMI so they go with DisplayPort instead.

Unfortunately for us users even at monoprice a DisplayPort to HDMI cable costs several $ more than a regular HDMI cable, of course also the DisplayPort cables only come in white.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[shawn(at)fsu]

The only being able to burn the recovery disk once is new information for me to store away. That's pretty shiaty even for them. I can't figure out why they would do this either. They usually have the recovery procedure check to make sure it's running on the authorized hardware. Just another reason for me to request a recovery cd or not buy it at all.

Also good idea on "burning" it to an ISO file. Thanks.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[bill_mcgonigle]

I sort of miss the days where computer shops were Mom and Pop businesses similar to how bike shops are today. It wasn't perfect, but there was something about having someone to physically come to, should computer problems happen, that made those shops worth patronizing. The closest thing we have these days to this is the Genius Bar at the Apple Store.

This must be a regional problem. Around here we have probably a dozen in the economic region. They're "expensive" compared with the box at the warehouse club, though, so they don't do many custom builds.

Have you tried searching Google Maps?

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't Newegg price gouging. The pre-built computer manufactures are getting the parts in bulk for much cheaper than an end user can. Also a lot of the stuff in the pre-built computers is bare basic stuff the manufacturer got made cheap just so they could go on, these are the parts you typically don't see them advertising.

I have noticed the theme with PC manufactures doing this as well. That is why I have downloads of the windows versions I need, you can actually legally download the Windows 7 ISOs online, Amazon I think even has them posted for members who bought it from them. I have the Windows 7 ISOs along with the Windows XP ISO that came with most home PCs so that I reinstall computers that come my way with their original key without having them loaded down with bloat.

As you can tell, I repair PCs, I used to do it for a living, now as a side job. You would be surprised how happy some people are when you do it just cause it runs better without the bloat. Actually had some people ask me if they bought a new PC if they could just bring it to me to redo it like their last one if it had all the crap and offered to pay me for it. Kinda funny how I actually make money reinstalling Windows on a direct from the store purchase.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Honestly Michael Dell rolls over for Ballmer every time.

Don't fight the hand that feeds you.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[zbaron]

Now you know why windows 7 is the fastest selling windows os ever ...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[interval1066]

• USB dvd burner: ~$50
• Piece of mind: priceless

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

It's about double for a similarly-sounding spec.

That sounds like either you're being ripped off by your suppliers on the good stuff or you have access to cheaper cheap stuff than here in the UK. Every self-build system I've put together in the past decade had a 25–50% premium over what I could have ordered on-line from a large-scale manufacturer, but I don't think any were any worse than that (and they were all cheaper than what I could have bought off the shelf from the local PC World or similar retail outlets).

That said, I would happily even pay double the asking price of the typical cheap **** you get today if I could reasonably expect the PC/printer/whatever to last 5+ years rather than 2–3 if I'm lucky, and if came with a clean OS install, working drivers for everything, and with back-ups of all the basic software also supplied on original media. After all, no system I have built myself to a carefully chosen parts specification has ever failed, even after 5+ years of regular use, while the canned machine I'm writing this on was supposedly fairly high-end at the time it was bought yet has been showing warning signs of unreliable hardware since it was less than two years old. Either I've been remarkably lucky over an incredible period of time with the self-build boxes, which is of course still a possibility, or it really is worth buying the better brands of hardware and taking the time to assemble everything carefully.

However, as I get older and I have other priorities competing for my time, I don't really want to go through the self-build process any more. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any company trying to establish itself as a premium quality PC hardware supplier. Likewise, it seems like no-one really makes everyday software of what I would call acceptable professional quality any more: shipping bug-ridden, hard-to-use junkware and then patching later (or not) has become the norm in the Internet age. Maybe there just aren't enough people like me to make up for all the people who don't know any better and think it's normal for PC power supplies and hard drives to die after a couple of years, printers to stop working because a toner cartridge says you've printed the allowed number of pages with it even though it's still half full, and software to crash and lose your document/spoil your game/whatever at least once before you can finish what you were working on. :-(

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[bill_mcgonigle]

That sounds like either you're being ripped off by your suppliers on the good stuff or you have access to cheaper cheap stuff than here in the UK. Every self-build system I've put together in the past decade had a 25-50% premium over what I could have ordered on-line from a large-scale manufacturer, but I don't think any were any worse than that (and they were all cheaper than what I could have bought off the shelf from the local PC World or similar retail outlets).

By 'similar sounding', I mean to the lay person. If Brand_X is using a $30 motherboard, I'm probably going to use an $80-120 motherboard with real caps, by ASUS or SuperMicro. I'm going to put in the CPU with larger cache CPU with VT. The fans will all be whisper-quiet, the cooler will be very cool and I'll use thermal compound with real silver.

But a spec sheet may still say, "Core 2 Quad, 2.66GHz, 1.5GB", so it sounds similar to those not in the know.
 

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Xaositecte]

I routinely have to help my co-workers do things like operate MS Office.

Being a techie, things that seem ridiculously simple to you are strange and frightening to them. These are also the sorts of people Dell is preying on, not you.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Xaositecte]

Why the hell do people keep thinking this?

It's not that the cost of a CD is prohibitive or adding anything it the cost.

It's that someone figured out they can charge more for the CD if they don't include it in the standard price!

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[toddestan]

AOL can spam the entire country with CDs through the snail mail. Companies like Dell have manufacturing processes down to an exact science. It's not that big of a cost. No really, it isn't.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[toddestan]

Generally that's because when you're picking out the parts yourself, you're probably not going to pick the barely adequate, sub-standard power supply, the motherboard with last year's budget chipset, or the 5400RPM hard drive. A few bucks here and a few there and it starts to add up.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[toddestan]

A Celeron e1500, while a low-end chip, is still a dual-core based off the Core 2 architecture. 2003-era tech is something like a non-Hyperthreading P4 (or Hyperthreading later in the year if you spent some money), a Socket A Athlon, or one of those truly terrible Netburst Celerons.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[toddestan]

Check your local dumpsters. Though the best I've found so far are hyperthreading P4's and Athlon XP's.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[quantumphaze]

The stupid recovery disk burning program for my ThinkPad SL500 doesn't say what media (CD/DVD) it wants. Turns out that it wants a CD first to create a WinPE environment then 2 DVDs for the actual recovery data.
Nowhere does it say this! I wasted a perfectly good blank DVD for about 300MB of data (which oddly worked as if it was a CD with the same radius of discolouration for about 300MB).

From then on I did practice burns with RW media until I discovered the secret 1CD then 2 DVDs combo.

If I actually used that Vista partition for more than the occasional game I would have installed it from a fresh iso without all the bloatware.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[davester666]

Because their goal is:

a) claim to have given you 'enough' for you to reinstall your OS out of the box
b) make it non-trivial to actually be useful, enabling them to sell you valuable assistance in the form of physical restore disks and phone support

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is also no good reason to fuck users over a thing as trivial as fixing/reinstalling the OS.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[gothzilla]

You would think so, wouldn't you?

I have an older machine (Pent 4 3ghz) and I decided to install linux on it so I could give it to someone, since I don't have windows licenses to hand out. I downloaded the Ubuntu cd iso and tried to burn it. Guess what? It's too big. Went and checked and sure enough it says it's a cd, not a dvd.

What the hell?

So I do some searching and find several pages that explain in many steps how to burn an iso that's too big to fit on a cd. Are you serious?

So I do some more searching and find instructions to make an install USB. This board supports booting from USB so great, I'll try it. I get the USB made and try to boot and it starts then crashes. Great.

So I do some more searching and find a minimal install cd that's actually small enough to fit on a cd. Get the install going and I get to the screen where you choose the packages. I check a few like audio editing and video editing and choose the Ubuntu desktop and the install crashes and sends me back to the start. I spent about an hour checking and unchecking packages trying to find the one that's crashing. Discover it's the Ubuntu desktop doing it so I choose a different one.

So now I've spent a good four days trying to figure out how to install this stupid free operating system only to get kicked in the balls repeatedly. I finally get it up and get the desktop. I poke around a bit then realize I now can no longer use all the software I already know, am familiar with, and like to use. Not only that, but if I give it to someone they're going to have problems and they're going to ask me how to fix it and I'm not going to know what to tell them.

So I say screw it, throw in an XP cd and a couple hours and no errors later I have a working machine that I'll just keep instead of being nice and giving away.

So yeah, it can be hard to burn an ISO in 2010, and that can only be the beginning of your difficulties.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[sorak]

Maybe I'm be sloppy with my wording. I'm not necessarily talking about device drivers, just as I would not consider Windows to have hardware support for hard drives, if it had no application that could write a file system to them.

When I said hardware support, I was referring more to the user interface that would interact with the drivers to allow the user to burn a CD. The situation as it existed was analogous to requiring the user to buy a third party print spooler (or expecting the printer manufacturer to provide one), because Microsoft was dragging their feet on an existing technology.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, anyone ever hear of Acronis back up? Buy once and use it forever in your computers to back up. Easy as pie and doesnt fail.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[AmiMoJo]

This is a known problem with HP dvX000 laptops. It is due to the nVidia chipset getting extremely hot. It's supposed to be okay (their desktop GPUs hit 110C under max load, e.g. the 8800 Ultra) but tends to cause the soldering that connects the chip to the motherboard to fail.

Typical symptoms of nVidia chipset failure are no output to screen (but boots up), wifi/usb dropping out and eventually the laptop failing completely.

HP will replace the mobo until the warranty runs out. They also issued BIOS updates for some models which underclock the GPU in an attempt to mitigate the problem but all it does is delay the fault until the warranty has run out. You also loose 20% or more GPU performance.

If you have a HP and can't get a refund on it then I suggest trying to get the mobo replaced before the warranty runs out. Best thing to do is run Prime95 in torture test mode and FurMark or RTHDBL to cook the GPU. It will eventually fail and you can then make the warranty claim. The new board will have the same fault but at least it should take another ~12 months to fail.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[mcgrew]

Wikipedia talks of the U3 in the past tense, and it appears to be Windows only. It links to another Windows only thing that doesn't make the OS think it's a CD. I'm trying to get Mandriva on it dual-boot as well as make a Windows recovery disk.

I guess I'll have to buy an external burner.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[FreonTrip]

True, but I was referring to the tech aside from the CPU itself. The rest of the system's very much in line with a high-end rig from when UT2003 walked the earth. :)

The Netburst Celerons varied in terms of overall shittiness: Willamette anything was an abortive mess, but the Northwood Celerons ran fairly cool by the standards of the time and overclocked well. Both of the latter had hatefully crippled L2 cache implementations to boot. Prescott Celerons were sort of better, with doubled cache (and associativity), but most ran almost as hot as their non-hobbled cousins. As a result of the cache crippling, all of the Netburst Celerons positively stutter-stepped in games, some worse than others. Half-Life 2 should not lag on a 2.53 GHz CPU with a GeForce 7800GT and 2 gigs of RAM, but it did on those chips...

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[Fallingcow]

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[TangoMargarine]

In my experience, the included Windows burning programs are prone to random failure, though. I use ImgBurn.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[CrashNBrn]

Isn't that what the Microsoft Retail stores are doing... without the +25% markup.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[FreonTrip]

Ah, memories. :) I gave my Athlon 500 with 512 MB RAM and a Voodoo4 to a friend years ago, which he used as a domain controller for his home network. It was more upsetting than I would have guessed when he threw it away without asking me first.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[GrantRobertson]

Though I love my Fujitsu Tablet PC. The burn-a-backup-disk software was worthless. I made the disks, using four DVDs, and then tried to restore the software as a test. All it did is trash my hard drive. Fortunately, I had planned to reinstall Windows 7 Ultimate from a separate disk anyway.

Re:It's down to the cost of one disk?

[JThundley]

I recently bought a new laptop that required me to burn my own recovery disc. It took FOUR blank dvds. And what's worse is that it only lets me burn one copy. What a pain in the ass.

Micro$oft

[p51d007]

All they would have to do, is have MICROSOFT to crack down on the practice, and the disks would come back. LOL...heck, more than likely MS is the one behind this, trying to save money not having to ship disks.

Re:Micro$oft

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the real goal is to make it more difficult to get away from the manufacturer's preinstalled bloatware.

Re:Micro$oft

[mark72005]

I think it's just to save a nickel on each unit.

My el cheapo Acer laptop was set up this way. The pre-installed software had a utility that creates a recovery disk, which I did almost immediately after buying the machine, then I threw the (2) disks into a safe. Problem was, it never really asked me to do it. I just stumbled on the utility.

I don't really see anything wrong with the practice personally, but the manufacturers should be much more forceful about telling people to burn recovery disks. There should be some kind of a nag screen when you first start up the machine warning you to burn them and keep them in a safe place.

Re:Micro$oft

[GaryOlson]

Wrong assumption on saving money. This could be looked at as a method to drive sales of Windows. Rather than wait for a recovery disk to be shipped, how many people will just drop the system off at BigBoxTechSupport and pay for a clean install -- and how about we upgrade your Microsoft to Windows 7 also? Microsoft sells another license, the retail support department has more sales, and the system owner does not have to know anything about how the system works.

Just like taking the car to the dealer for service. What could be more natural?

Re:Micro$oft

[rickb928]

Microsoft ENCOURAGES the practice. 'Forced' upgrades, the perception of reduced piracy, less counterfeiting, this is all to Microsoft's benefit.

Buying an new anything, especially a notebook computer, do your due diligence and get physical recovery media. And prefer vendors that can provide them with less trouble.

IBM and Lenovo uses to be pretty good about this with Thinkpads. I got a set for $50 for a used X41T I bought, and worth it just to clear up the problems with base XP installs. But I could afford it.

Gotta wonder...

[The MAZZTer]

... how many Windows "pirates" actually own a legitimate product key but have simply no install CD/DVD.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps the machines could come with an Ubuntu disk, just in case...

Re:Gotta wonder...

[Mr. DOS]

It gets worse: many so-called Vista “OEM” keys on laptops will only work with the manufacturer's recovery disc, and won't work with a legitimate (but generic) OEM disc. In three instances, I've had to give up and tell clients they'll have to cough up the $40 and buy a recovery disc because I just couldn't get Windows to activate otherwise.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[lukas84]

You can't activate OEM licenses online - you have to do it by phone.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[Linker3000]

On the several occasions I have been in this situation, I have just phoned Microsoft, said that I have reinstalled Vista/7 on a machine following a repair and it won't reactivate and they have taken me through the manual process using my legitimate licence key and sorted it. Have to admit, Microsoft have always been helpful when this has happened.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[interval1066]

Find Windows Essentials. You don't need a key. Just the iso image.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[richy freeway]

What the hell are you two talking about? Seriously. Both of your statements are wrong.

OEM Windows WILL activate online, it doesn't always though. Sometimes you do have to ring up, usually if the number has been activated too many times but sometimes just straight off the bat.

To say that the OEM keys are specific to a particular OEM and that you need the disc from that particular manufacturer is just utter codswallop. I've reinstalled literally hundreds of laptops, all from exactly the same set of ISO's I keep on my server.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

that's right.
I've paid for five copies of windows XP over the years, and one copy of windows 98, and yet on my only (single) current windows PC, I have hade to use a keygen.

no doubt those microsoft cunts get a report from windows update etc saying I'm a pirate whereas actually I've paid for the shit five times over.

Microsoft bitches about piracy all the time, but I would be hugely surprised if the number of real unpaid for installs outweighed all the multiple extra licenses people around the world have paid for.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[xtracto]

Count me as one of them.

I bought an HP Laptop in Mexico and took it to the UK for my studies. After about three years my disk went kaput and I had to get a new one.

Unfortunately I didn't have an XP install disk... although I did have my XP license (in a stick under my laptop).

I went into the UK HP client service and told them that I wanted to get their install disk; I think they were selling it for about 30 pounds, which I said I would pay. I was ready to give all my machine details but they said they could not send it because it was a machine bought in Mexico, and thus, I had to contact HP-Mexico

I did contact Hp-Mexico and they told me they could not send me a disk to the UK... At the end I finished torrenting a really good XP release (Windows UE in Spanish FWIW).

It really sucks how companies go to such efforts to prevent people to try to do things right and then whine when people take alternative routes.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

So called 'BIOS-locked' versions of Vista check for a private key in the machine's BIOS. If present, the copy of Vista activates immediately without the need to contact MS. You can use a generic Vista install DVD, just don't enter the key on the sticker (make sure you choose the right edition of Vista during the install). You need to find the manufacturer's public certificate and install it, and then find the generic product key for the edition of Vista and enter it. See this forum post: http://keznews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3717

If you get it right, Vista will activate automatically. I have done this succsesfully with a BIOS-locked Dell XPS laptop.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

It is possible to activate vista/7 with just a generic OEM disc. At least with 7, you can activate with ANY disc (but Enterprise). All you need is the SLIC/SLP certificate file (easily found on the web) and the SLP license key (also easily found on the web), and it will SLP activate offline just like from the factory. You wouldn't have to do phone activation using the sticker on the side of the case! Perfectly legal/legitimate as long as the system you are working on is licensed for it (has the COA sticker and you're installing the matching edition for it).

Re:Gotta wonder...

[tlhIngan]

It gets worse: many so-called Vista "OEM" keys on laptops will only work with the manufacturer's recovery disc, and won't work with a legitimate (but generic) OEM disc. In three instances, I've had to give up and tell clients they'll have to cough up the $40 and buy a recovery disc because I just couldn't get Windows to activate otherwise.

Depends on the OEM key.

If it's from a brand name laptop (Dell/Acer/Asus/Toshiba/Sony/etc) then it probably uses a "SLIC" BIOS so you don't have to activate. If it's a generic whitebox, then it probably just uses the OEM version of Windows. The latter has a sticker with the key that should work, but will need activation.

The former has a product label that often says the manufacturer's name on it as it's a customized key that doesn't work without calling. In this case, the VIsta/7 installation key you must use the global manufacturer OEM CD key. This is the key that those manufacturers use when they do the install. It tells Vista/7 to use the SLIC BIOS rather than requiring a per-copy OEM key. It doesn't need activation, unless you wiped the BIOS and lost the SLIC information, then you're screwed. It's also the key that gets displayed if you use a key retriever (which never matches the sticker).

Pirate Tip: When you get that list of custom OEM keys, you can "Windows Anytime Upgrade" it to convert your SLIC'd PC from Home to Ultimate for free by using the ultimate OEM key (because the OEM key determines the Windows version, while the SLIC only says you're licensed for a copy, but not which copy - this allows OEMs to sell some configurations with HOme Premium, others with Ultimate, etc). Requires a PC with a SLIC BIOS though. Can't go from Vista to 7 this way unless you have a SLIC 2.1 BIOS, but you can go to ultimate for free. And it'll scan as activated and genuine, too.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[lukas84]

OEM Windows WILL activate online, it doesn't always though. Sometimes you do have to ring up, usually if the number has been activated too many times but sometimes just straight off the bat.

No, they don't. They DID, several years ago, until Microsoft changed that.

SBE licenses, on the other hand, WILL activate online. Many people confuse these two, and call SBE licenses "OEM" licenses, since they're meant for small PC vendors.

Re:Gotta wonder...

[richy freeway]

Ahh right, so the HP laptop with a HP Vista Home Basic 32bit that I just activated online was in my imagination?

Ah the joys...

[Midnight's Shadow]

...of being able to download my OS from the internet for free! Not to mention knowing how to install a new hard drive.

Re:Ah the joys...

[c0d3g33k]

Amen, brother, amen.

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

being able to download my OS from the internet for free!

But then you have to be more diligent in choosing hardware for your PC. Sure, a Free operating system based on Linux (Fedora, Ubuntu, etc.) supports a wide array of hardware. But if you happen to buy a piece of hardware at the store that's not on the distribution's hardware compatibility list, it probably won't include a Linux driver on a disc either. Now what?

Re:Ah the joys...

[DrSkwid]

Take Linux LiveCD to shop, test machine. Stop whining.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Pop69]

But if you happen to buy a piece of hardware at the store that's not on the distribution's hardware compatibility list, it probably won't include a Linux driver on a disc either.

You mean that you haven't noticed that Windows has a hardware compatibility list as well ?

Re:Ah the joys...

[betterunixthanunix]

I have been finding that Linux compatible hardware is becoming pretty easy to obtain. Certain companies are still on the "bad list" -- Broadcom certainly stands out -- but for the most part, I have no problems anymore. Of course, I do not demand particularly high performance 3D graphics, so maybe that is why...

Re:Ah the joys...

[mark72005]

It doesn't help consumers who are already the victims of vendor lock-in, such as those with a large purchased iTunes music collection.

Or those who simply aren't savvy enough (most) or have better things to do (some) than wrangle with an OS or replace disks.

Most people have more money than sense, and they don't have much money either.

Re:Ah the joys...

[digitig]

But windows compatibility is usually marked on the box. Linux compatibility usually isn't.

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

Take Linux LiveCD to shop, test machine.

How many shops will unbox a PC that has no floor model to let me test it? Or (in the case of small form factor machines with no built-in optical drive) let me plug in a USB DVD-ROM drive? Or unbox a printer or scanner and let me connect it to a floor model PC?

Re:Ah the joys...

[paeanblack]

But if you happen to buy a piece of hardware at the store that's not on the distribution's hardware compatibility list, it probably won't include a Linux driver on a disc either. Now what?

After that, I wake up and stop dreaming about the past.

Welcome to the 21st century.

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

Windows has a hardware compatibility list

Driver discs bundled with peripherals extend the hardware compatibility list of Windows because they include a driver for Windows. They do not extend the hardware compatibility list of Linux because they do not include a driver for Linux.

Re:Ah the joys...

[commodore64_love]

>>>Most people have more money than sense

Or they recognize that it's silly to waste 3-4 hours trying to make a device work, when it only takes an hour of overtime to earn the cash and BUY the fix (like a new device). That's called common sense.

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

Welcome to the 21st century.

Unless I'm severely missing something, you're claiming that makers of PC peripherals, such as printers, scanners, and network cards, started putting Linux drivers on the included CD sometime in the past decade. Which year was this?

Re:Ah the joys...

[shaunbr]

The "Windows Compatibility List" is pretty much every piece of hardware everywhere. Vendors would be absolutely stupid to *not* include a Windows driver, since Windows users are something like 85 percent of the market. I guarantee that a Windows user will never have the problem of buying a piece of hardware and finding that there aren't any Windows drivers for it.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Dishevel]

Well there you go then. I like you have joined a world where all of our decisions can be made simply by reading the front of the box. No need to think or understand. All we need to do is look at the box and buy with joy.

Seriously dude. Linux dose not want you.

For the pedantic Linux/GNU fanboys... Yes I realize it's Linux/GNU or GNU/Linux what ever.

It is the one with the penguin on the box. Right? :)

Re:Ah the joys...

[psyeye]

How many shops will unbox a PC that has no floor model to let me test it? Or (in the case of small form factor machines with no built-in optical drive) let me plug in a USB DVD-ROM drive? Or unbox a printer or scanner and let me connect it to a floor model PC?

Bah.

Ever considered this to be an indicator of whether to buy there or not?!

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

Certain companies are still on the "bad list" -- Broadcom certainly stands out

So how do I discern, by looking only at the retail packaging, whether a particular peripheral contains a chipset from a company on the "bad list"? It'd be best if there were a central "good list" of manufacturer names somewhere on the web that I can recommend to friends and family who have grown tired of headaches associated with Windows. For example, HP printers and scanners would make the list. Does this exist?

Re:Ah the joys...

[paeanblack]

How many shops will unbox a PC that has no floor model to let me test it? Or (in the case of small form factor machines with no built-in optical drive) let me plug in a USB DVD-ROM drive?

Any store worth doing business worth, that's who.

If you are buying computers from an electronics/office supply store, you'll get ignored.

If you are buying from a real computer store, they know that they can't compete on price with newegg/amazon/etc, so they need to compete on service. The staff absolutely will unbox equipment to answer questions like that, because there will also be other customers asking the same thing.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Anonymous Coward]

oh except this TrendNet N card I got on eBay last week, it has a linux driver. Did not expect that at all for a cheapo card.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Nursie]

No, the windows compat list is not that comprehensive, especially where laptop hardware is concerned.

Windows 7 does not like various bits of my Vaio, and there are no drivers available. Debian, on the other hand, does far better.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Nursie]

I think he's saying that for the vast majority of devices, linux works fine. In fact in my recent experience it is MORE compatible than windows.

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

Ever considered this to be an indicator of whether to buy there or not?!

Three stores in an area (Best Buy and two local businesses) + don't buy at store 1 + don't buy at store 2 + don't buy at store 3 = don't buy a computer. Buying online is problematic because one doesn't get to try the keyboard or screen first.

Re:Ah the joys...

[mark72005]

You will get modded flamebait for saying that for the average idiot, ubuntu might not be the best use of their time. ;)

Re:Ah the joys...

[natehoy]

Excellent point.

Everything has a price. If I fail to do my research and get a bit of hardware that doesn't work with Linux Mint, I've got one piece of hardware that needs to be returned and replaced with something my operating system does support. It'd be nice if all vendors published their specs so the F/OSS folks could write device drivers, but WinPrinters and other Windows-specific devices exist, and anyone wanting to use Linux needs to educate themselves about that and look up their intended purchases on one of the many pages that list out what hardware will (and will not) work well.

When I compare this to the chance that my hard drive is going to go south and I have to pay someone to get a specialized disc replace the operating system that came with my computer, I think the occasional purchase of some hardware that turns out to be incompatible is pretty trivial. The critical bit for me is that I always want to have a legitimate copy of an operating system on all of my computers that no one can ever tell me is illegitimate. The license key printed on the case of a prebuilt is basically useless, and if your hard drive goes away and you haven't made the recovery CD (or it's damaged due to storage, home-burned discs don't last as long as professional ones) you have to pay someone again for the license or pirate it. I don't like that, so I'm careful to choose parts that are Linux-compatible (and I did that even when I ran Windows, because being able to boot to Linux-based recovery tools has saved my bacon more than once).

It may, on rare occasion, cost a bit more, but I tend to get better hardware as a result. I figure I've saved enough on my operating system that I can afford to buy slightly more expensive hardware (though this is rarely necessary), and have a few bucks left over to donate to my favorite distro.

But that's me and my priorities. Your mileage may vary, and obviously does.

I'm just grateful that we both have good alternatives to choose from, and that compatibility has reached the point where neither of us is "locked in" to our choice forever.

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

Then whom does Linux want? People who can afford smartphone service to check the distribution's HCL against model numbers available in the store while in the store?

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

I think he's saying that for the vast majority of devices, linux works fine

Until the user who recently switched from Windows to Linux discovers that his flatbed scanner is unsupported, or the driver for his GPU reduces all 3D programs to a slideshow, or his WLAN card can't get a signal, etc. Even though the majority of components work, the system doesn't work, and this leaves people with a bad impression of GNU/Linux.

Re:Ah the joys...

[jedidiah]

> But then you have to be more diligent in choosing hardware for your PC

No not really. Being sure that a bit of gear is not total piece of crap requires some work anyways.

Being willfully ignorant when you're buying something is a problem across the board.

Re:Ah the joys...

[drooling-dog]

it probably won't include a Linux driver on a disc either. Now what?

Well, there is the internet.

Actually, though, more often I find the opposite scenario to be true. Most hardware "just works" with Linux, but for Windows you need to install stuff from the included CD. You may be loading just a driver, or you might be installing whatever additional spyware/adware/nagware/crapware the hardware vendor (or some 3rd party) wants on your machine. But as long as it "works", you won't know or care.

I have nothing (well, a few things maybe) against Windows itself as an OS, but the ecosystem surrounding it is an unmitigated cesspool. The people who swim there see the big chunks of poop floating around, but they think that's just the price you have to pay for a day at the beach (and, of course, you get what you pay for). You'll never convince them to try the clean, cool pond just over the hill, because, well, they'd have to climb that damned hill to get there.

Re:Ah the joys...

[jedidiah]

The existence of a driver disk for Windows for a particular bit of gear will not necessarily make it useful.

A particular printer might not print over the network or a particular capture card might have no MCE support.

Plus there's the various combinations of device vs. version of windows that can be tricky.

Not buying total crap helps eliminate many problems.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Pop69]

I'm sure if you look at the HCL http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hcl/default.mspx you'll find that including a driver on a CD doesn't magically add a piece of hardware to the list.

Re:Ah the joys...

[psyeye]

Heh.

Living in a 200k people city in Germany I have like ... a lot in my area. Plus buying online is not problematic since sending back bought products is allowed here and has to be handled by shops.

So yes... maybe getting some decent hardware seems to be a problem in those rural areas - I hate to admit it.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Anonymous Coward]

If my games supported Linux, I would be doing that too.

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

anyone wanting to use Linux needs to educate themselves about that and look up their intended purchases on one of the many pages that list out what hardware will (and will not) work well.

But then how do I get to the many pages while shopping? As far as I know, this works only if the store makes a PC with web access available to customers so that they can come in and compare the list of models available in the store with the list of models on the HCL.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Lumpy]

People that can actually research things.

I was smart enough that when I wanted a new webcam I used the internet thingy and searched. I found the Microsoft Lifecam HD works under Windows, Linux and OSX perfectly... yet the box says "WINDOWS ONLY!! HOW DARE YOU ASK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE!!!!"

I used my brain and made a educated purchase. I guess those that are incapable of doing anything but looking at boxes get to miss out on a lot.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Lumpy]

My "Made for windows 7" Dell Studio laptop has issues with windows 7. Even the frigging manufacturers of the device cant get it right.

Yet linux runs flawlessly on it with everything working great.

Re:Ah the joys...

[jedidiah]

I dunno...

Perhaps you cold crawl into the 21st century and use Google.

On the other hand, you could take an old school approach to the problem and just return the thing that doesn't do it for you.

It's like you people are dinosaurs or something...

Re:Ah the joys...

[Lumpy]

Broadcom anything is really low grade dog-food. Avoid their garbage hardware and chipsets at all cost. They dont work well even under Windows.

Re:Ah the joys...

[ffreeloader]

Take Linux LiveCD to shop, test machine.

How many shops will unbox a PC that has no floor model to let me test it? Or (in the case of small form factor machines with no built-in optical drive) let me plug in a USB DVD-ROM drive? Or unbox a printer or scanner and let me connect it to a floor model PC?

Just get the hardware list from the retailer, manufacturer, or from the machine itself. You know, the built-in utilities that tell you what hardware is included in the machine.... You don't need a printer. All you need is a pencil paper for keeping track of a few pieces of hardware.

Most of the major components will just work. The main things for you to Google will be wireless and video chipsets. Once in a great while a wired network card won't work, but that's not too likely. Another thing would be the webcam if the laptop has one. Linux has generic drivers that cover a wide range of webcams, but some might not work.

Another option is just to tell the salesman in the brick-and-mortar store that you run Linux and want to boot the machine into a livecd to check hardware compatibility. If they say no, tell them they aren't going to sell you anything unless they do and walk off. My bet is that they will call you back. If they don't, go to another retailer and repeat until you find one who will work with you. That's the store you want to deal with anyway as they are going to give you much better after-the-sale service because they care about their relationship with their customers. With the economy in the shape it's in it shouldn't be hard to find a retailer who will work with you if they want to make a sale.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Lumpy]

Then why do they go out and buy with that overtime money a replacement device that they take another 3-4 hours to get working?

Buy a new pc, spend 5 hours minimum getting the crud off of it, or better yet. waste a weekend trying to get your old crap off the old PC to the new PC. 99% of all average joes have zero clue how to do that.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Lumpy]

1 - the flatbed scanner that he never used under windows and has been sitting there for 3 years under books? Bet you $1000.00 it wont work under windows 7.

2 - GPU driver problems... like the fact that Windows 7 crashes or pixelates when Glass is turned on for many Intel chipsets?

3 - the Wlan card is getting signal just fine... you just cant configure it. give them a usb wlan stick and stop whining.

I have seen all the problems you mention and it's always someone that has a 5+ year old computer with really obscure hardware that instead of buying a new pc they try this linux thingy.

Fact: all the linux problems will exist with windows 7. 99% of all old hardware is not supported under windows 7 because of the lack of drivers. Certain scanner makers are notorious for being assholes like that.... AGFA, we are all looking at you.... And have you tried a Geforce 4 card under Windows 7? AACK!

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

Well, there is the internet.

Response from the internet: Unsupported. If you meant use the web to rule out incompatible products before you buy them, that has three problems: stores that don't provide a web terminal to customers, hardware received as a gift, and hardware kept when upgrading an existing PC from Windows to Linux.

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

Perhaps you cold crawl into the 21st century and use Google.

I have Google at home, but not necessarily while I am in the store.

On the other hand, you could take an old school approach to the problem and just return the thing that doesn't do it for you.

Then how do I find a store that doesn't charge a 15% restocking fee for returning hardware that doesn't work in a not-officially-supported configuration?

Re:Ah the joys...

[Spillman]

The staff absolutely will unbox equipment to answer questions like that, because there will also be other customers asking the same thing


You mean there will be other customers asking if a computer runs linux? I honestly think that number might not be that high.

If you walked into the BestBuy I worked at (yes, I work for Geeksquad, but before you start throwing flames I am Linux+ certified) and we didn't have a floor model open available for you to test on, a sales associate who has no idea what you are talking about would come find me and I would look it up for you.

However, I am told that my store is much nicer than most other BestBuys...

Re:Ah the joys...

[Nursie]

You've already been told by the other guy but -

Compared to the latest incarnation of windows (7), linux is dreamlike for hardware compat. That scanner (and any accompanying printers) are more likely to work under linux, and without having to download a hundred megabytes of crap from a support site, if there's any support at all.

WLAN is a similar story and a friend has just had to go buy another card because he switched to win 7. And 3d is fine now, thanks.

Look, if you don't like linux for some reason then fine, nobody's forcing you to use it, but your arguments are out of date.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Anonymous Coward]

WHY is this modded troll?

Activist mods...

Re:Ah the joys...

[Anonymous Coward]

do you really need to boot the machine with a livecd? by intel/realtek wireless, buy HP/Epson printers/scanners, by just about any nvidia/intel/amd videocard you want(GMA500 is to be avoided). Other than that, i'm not aware of a lot of main stream hardware that doesn't work. Have any examples that i didn't already cover?

Printer/scanner compatibility can be found at http://www.linuxprinting.org/
AMD compatability can be found at https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/www2.ati.com/drivers/linux/catalyst_107_linux.pdf
nvidia compatibility found at http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux-display-amd64-256.44-driver.html
Intel graphics compatibility found at http://intellinuxgraphics.org/documentation.html
NDISWrapper compatibility found at http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ndiswrapper/index.php?title=Main_Page

Re:Ah the joys...

[commodore64_love]

>>>a replacement device that they take another 3-4 hours to get working?

Then just go buy a Windows PC or Apple Macintosh that works out of the box, rather than wasting time with Linux headaches, like incompatible drivers or software that only works on PC/Mac.
.

>>>spend 5 hours minimum getting the crud off of it

My new PC had very little crud on it. It took me just a few minutes to highlight and press the delete key for the "Sign up for AOL" and similar junkcons. I suppose the actual software is still taking-up space on the drive, but so what? With 500 gigabytes it's not even noticeable.

Re:Ah the joys...

[dancingmilk]

Depends where you go. I've gone to shops and asked to be allowed to use a PC with my Linux distro for an hour to make sure the hardware detects properly and whatnot. They took me to their back room and let me go to town (A tech supervised me to make sure I didn't steal anything).

It's worth noting that this was for my parents computer. I would never be silly enough to buy my personal machine at a store.

P.S - Checked that link in your sig. As an FYI, half the apps on your list are working for me under Wine on a x64 machine. It'll come, eventually.

Re:Ah the joys...

[tepples]

Anonymous Coward wrote:

by intel/realtek wireless, buy HP/Epson printers/scanners, by just about any nvidia/intel/amd videocard you want

Thank you. Bookmarked. Are there other things I should know, especially about how to quickly discover which chipset a particular floor model PC or a particular WLAN card uses?

Re:Ah the joys...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can work 1 hour of overtime to go and buy a $999.00 mac then I need your job.

P.S. I have NEVER seen a windows machine that I open the box, turn it on and it within seconds is ready to go with all my stuff on it.

You still need to waste a lot of time on ANY new PC. Even my new Mac laptop took 3 hours to get to where it was useful to me.

Re:Ah the joys...

[theskipper]

For non-technical folks like yourself, it's worth mentioning that deleting an "icon" (the picture that shows you AOL) won't always take care of the problem. In that case it will because it's a simple link but with most of the junk, no. It runs much deeper.

Here's why. The computer can actually do more than one thing at a time. So while you're in Facebook it may seem like nothing else is happening but there can be many other things running in what's called the "background".

You can see these things by starting a program called "Task Manager" but it's a little too technical to go into. Suffice it to say that you would need to go through an uninstall process for most of the preinstalled junk to truly get rid of it. Even then it may not remove it entirely.

So just deleting the icon won't do what you think it does. And deleting the software manually from the hard disk can cause a lot of problems because it messes up something in Windows called the "Registry" (again, too technical to get into).

It's very difficult to truly clean up this stuff in Microsoft Windows whereas the Apple MacIntosh or Linux operating systems don't have this problem. If you know someone familiar with computers the best bet is to ask them to help you out.

Hope that helps.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Dishevel]

The same people we all want. People who are at the very least semi-intelligent, willing to think about a thing for more than 2 seconds, with a healthy enough self image to not want to be owned by some company.

Re:Ah the joys...

[natehoy]

Ah, apologies, I thought you were referring to peripherals.

For a base system for consumer use, I'd recommend buying from someone who builds a machine with Linux. Sadly, they are few and far between.

Of course, if you know a Linux geek, many of us will happily help you select one, or even build one for you for the cost of parts plus maybe a couple of six-packs of something nice. ;)

Setting aside operating system choice for a moment...

The really important part is, if you buy a Windows machine from a store and it doesn't come with a recovery disc, make one using the included tools immediately if not sooner and put that disc in a really safe place. If the tool allows you to make more than one copy, make three and store them in separate safe places.

With Linux, you can always download the latest distro and install it (provided you have another working computer, of course! - if not, make sure you have install media for Linux handy just in case).

With Windows, in many cases, the only reinstall option is the disc the manufacturer provides (many license keys on the little holo-sticker won't validate on standard Windows CD/DVD sets). If you lose that disc, you are at the mercy of that manufacturer to provide you with a disc that works with their machines.

Re:Ah the joys...

[icebraining]

Broadcom certainly stands out

Their WL Drivers are closed, but work well. I use b43, though.

Re:Ah the joys...

[shutdown -p now]

Not so long ago, I had walked into the local Best Buy in a hurry, to buy a USB WiFi stick to quickly fix up the laptop I had. I specifically needed it to support Linux (because a new kernel update broke wired networking for my card).

Guess what? I've spent over half an hour in front of the shelf with those things, googling up hardware compatibility for the items one by one on my smartphone, without finding a single one for which there were no problems. "Support" ranged from none, to having to mess with ndiswrapper, to "works but unstable".

Re:Ah the joys...

[shutdown -p now]

... for Windows you need to install stuff from the included CD.

This was true back in XP days (but then Linux couldn't boast much about its hardware support either back then), but much less so in Vista, and even less in Win7. The "download drivers from Internet" thingy actually started to work in Vista (I've never, ever seen it do anything useful in XP), and what's more, it is launched automatically when a new piece of hardware is detected. Furthermore, drivers thus installed are then tracked & updated via Windows Update alongside the OS itself.

Re:Ah the joys...

[jimicus]

Four problems:

The manufacturer has recently changed the chip they use but has kept the freaking model number exactly the same.

Re:Ah the joys...

[mcgrew]

You mean that you haven't noticed that Windows has a hardware compatibility list as well ?

Of course he has; he's just either trolling of spewing FUD.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Anonymous Coward]

But if you happen to buy a piece of hardware at the store that's not on the distribution's hardware compatibility list, it probably won't include a Linux driver on a disc either.

You mean that you haven't noticed that Windows has a hardware compatibility list as well ?

I have had just as many devices/components that are incompatible with Vista as with Linux, if not more.

And with Linux, someone will likely develop a driver sooner than later. M$ will stop supporting Vista ASAP.

Re:Ah the joys...

[sjames]

I seem to remember a lawsuit over a bunch of machines marked as compatible with Vista...

Re:Ah the joys...

[ffreeloader]

An update for you. I had to run to the local Staples so I took an Ubuntu CD with me. I told the salesman I was looking to buy a new laptop, but that I run Linux so I needed to check for hardware compatibility. I asked if I could boot into my cd to check and he said probably not, but only because it was very difficult to get a cd into the drive because of how the displays were mounted.

Well, we figured out how to get a cd into the drive and booted it up. Probably not everyone will let you do this, but this proves that at least some stores will if you explain yourself up front and ask respectfully. Maybe my age, late 50's, made me appear less likely to wipe out a hard drive, as he said the reason it's so difficult to get a cd into the drive is because they've had so many people wipe out hard drives with live cd's and other similar tools.

Re:Ah the joys...

[meringuoid]

The "Windows Compatibility List" is pretty much every piece of hardware everywhere.

You would think so, wouldn't you? But it seems that drivers for my USB wireless adaptor are not to be had for anything later than Windows XP, though it's only a few years old. Manufacturer not supporting it any more. In Ubuntu it just works, just as I expected, but to get it working in Windows I had to find out the chipset it used and try a whole bunch of unsupported driver files downloaded from dubious websites until I found one that worked.

I consider myself a reasonably advanced computer user, but on this showing Windows isn't ready for the mainstream desktop. Can you imagine expecting Grandma to handle that sort of mess? No way. The mainstream will stay with Linux and leave Windows to the nerds, geeks and hobbyists who are into the whole 'closed-source' movement.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Nursie]

Sounds like "not so long ago" was about five years to ago to me.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Nursie]

Which is all well and good until you come to stuff the Windows 7 just refuses to have anything to do with. I've seen a number of webcams go this way on various people's systems, and various printers.

Re:Ah the joys...

[kbielefe]

Maybe it's because I started using Linux pre-ndiswrapper, but I don't understand all the resistance to it. I think the friendlier distros even pop up ndisgtk for you. Unless you're trying to do something like host an access point, you can pretty much buy a common name brand sight unseen and chances are it will work. A far cry from the "old days."

Re:Ah the joys...

[shutdown -p now]

It was in 2010, actually (and kernel update that broke wired was, too).

Re:Ah the joys...

[shutdown -p now]

In personal experience, it is still much more likely to run into stuff which Linux refuses to have anything with, than to run into the same problem with Windows. Well, it depends - if you're trying to get 10 year old hardware working, then Linux might be ahead. But if it's something bought in the last 2 or 3 years in Best Buy, it's definitely not in Linux favor.

Re:Ah the joys...

[shutdown -p now]

Maybe it's because I started using Linux pre-ndiswrapper, but I don't understand all the resistance to it. I think the friendlier distros even pop up ndisgtk for you.

It's mostly the desire to not mess with configs and such. Ideally it should all be plug'n'play, with at most one button ("find and install those goddamn drivers already") to click.

I haven't seen Ubuntu doing that with ndiswrapper. What distro did you have in mind that has it out of the box?

Re:Ah the joys...

[stub667]

Hardware compatibility list for Windows is pointless. Unless you bought it in an Apple store, it works with Windows. Or I should say, it will work at least equally as well with Windows than with any other OS.

Re:Ah the joys...

[Nursie]

Then I'm surprised.

In fact I think you've done really very well to find a shop that sells not only one, but multiple WiFi devices that linux can't use.
I'm not someone that plans hardware purchases very much, I just buy stuff, and I haven't had a problem with a wireless card since... 2006?

At this point I think we're just going to have to agree that your experiences are different to mine. I have as more trouble with windows than linux these days, you clearly have the opposite experience!

Re:Ah the joys...

[Nursie]

As I said in the other reply, your experience clearly differs from mine, I've had more trouble with windows, even on hardware under three years old, than I have had with linux of late. And far more luck just plugging stuff in and having it work without even the need to install drivers.

But as we all know, anecdotes are not evidence, so either of us may be an outlier.

Re:Ah the joys...

[shutdown -p now]

The shop was a local Best Buy in Richmond, BC.

Also note that the devices in question were all USB WiFi sticks. Plain old wireless cards in all my other boxes work fine.

The real problem was that, out of over a dozen devices manufactured under various brands, there were only two underlying chipsets, and that's what really matters when it comes to hardware support. What's more, the chipsets were relatively new, and seemingly very popular, seeing how they were used everywhere (I guess it all comes down to the price). So this particular anecdote of mine might have to do with recent happenings - apparently, the previous generation of chipsets from the same company was supported fine.

Re:Ah the joys...

[kbielefe]

I had thought it was part of the same process in Ubuntu that prompts to install other proprietary drivers like nvidia, but maybe it's a future plan I remember reading. The last time I did it myself was 3 years ago. Starting up ndisgtk and browsing to the .inf file is more than one click, but I'd hardly call it "messing with configs."

Re:Ah the joys...

[shutdown -p now]

Admittedly it's the first time I've heard of ndisgtk. I went and took a look, and it does look really nice, but I don't think it comes out of the box in Ubuntu. Or, if it does, then it most certainly doesn't get registered in the Applications menu.

It's not really a big deal for me (I used to run Gentoo, though that was quite a long time ago), but the laptop in question was being set up to be used by someone else - a non-techie - and I had to make sure that, should something go wrong, they could reinstall and have all hardware working out of the box or, at worst, following the popup prompts to download drivers (such as the NVidia one that you mention).

Re:Ah the joys...

[zimboptoo]

I know this is anecdotal, but: I spent several hours trying to get drivers downloaded and installed for a two-year-old HP printer/scanner for Windows. Then I booted into Ubuntu, opened XSane (which is included with 10.04 at least) and pressed the "scan" button, and 30 seconds later I had my scanned image. So sure, some hardware isn't supported by Linux. But for the vast majority of supported hardware, it works from the get-go, or at the very least automatically scans the hardware and gives you a button to install the correct drivers (for things like graphics cards).

HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife recently bought an HP laptop. It comes with the recovery stuff on a partition.

You get one time you can burn a physical recovery disk. When we tried it, the process failed. Leaving you with no more tries at a recovery disk, and no recovery disk.

Very annoying. Combine that with the performance of the laptop, and we won't be buying anything else from HP because they're products are overpriced and crappy. Ripping a CD created MP3 with really bad jitter and noise -- lame for a dual core machine which wasn't doing anything else at the time.

Posting anonymously because my wife works for HP and we bought it using her discount. :-P

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a way to create more than one set of recovery disks on HP's http://www.troublefixers.com/create-more-than-one-set-of-recovery-cd-on-hp-laptop-computer/ but I agree with you HP are POS and i'll never get another as they cripple the bios and they all run very hot.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, your an idiot

I hope you were going for irony there.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Bought an HP Pavilion about 5 years ago, and this ONE TIME ONLY burn deal on the recovery disc was true back then. Also true back then: the crappy CD/DVD reader supplied; couldn't handle DMA mode or some such nonsense. One couldn't play an audio CD without pauses about every 10 seconds. At least the latter was a cheap fix.
Anyway, I successfully made my one-and-only recovery set, but there's no way in h-ll I would rebuild this thing with the bloatware and obsolete drivers and everything else that came "pre-installed" for me. Simply horrendous experience getting rid of it all. Ugh.

Re:HP Does this ...

[DrSkwid]

> they're [sic] products are overpriced and crappy

> my wife works for HP

Due diligence again, why didn't you try something before you bought it.

People pretend like computers are like DVD players.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Hel Toupee]

Wow, your an idiot.
Ha! Karma really bit you square on the ass, huh?

Re:HP Does this ...

[miggyb]

Are you sure? All the laptops that I've dealt with will happily let you use up DVDs if the process keeps failing. I think there's a limit of one *successful* burn, but not one burn in general.

Re:HP Does this ...

[berashith]

The other piece about the HP recovery disks is that they are not an OS disk, but instead an image of the factory default install. I was hoping to have an image with base OS and drivers to get started. Instead I have a copy of all of the apps and other nonsense in the exact same configuration.

Re:HP Does this ...

[lowrydr310]

they all run very hot

Do they still run hot? I once had a HP laptop (AMD Turion X2, 64-bit Vista), and if I routed the exhaust vent into a shoebox, I could probably bake bread or reheat my pizza. Then I installed a BIOS upgrade and those overheating problems went away. It still ran ridiculously hot, but not as bad as before the upgrade.

I'm on a Dell/Pentium now, and it runs much cooler and the performance is better.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Demonantis]

You should have purchased a desktop if you were looking for performance instead of portability. You might have spent a grand on the laptop, but not on the computer itself. You have the screen, the keyboard, the trackpad, and all the other features the company feels you should have get subtracted from the money that they have to spend on the computer itself. I have seen my friends do it before so your not the first to assume a laptop doesn't come at a premium.

Re:HP Does this ...

[noidentity]

Combine that with the performance of the laptop, and we won't be buying anything else from HP because they're products are overpriced and crappy.

Good thing you won't be supporting them anymore.

my wife works for HP

Well, except working for them.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Cruciform]

The same thing happened with my mom. She's not really a tech-savvy user, but she doesn't go poking at things she doesn't understand, and the backup process wasn't exactly complicated. There was an error on the recovery partition and the backup puked.
We ended up getting a copy of Windows 7 to throw on it instead of the default Vista that it came with so she was out a few bucks but better off I guess.
Still, I find it extremely dickish of Toshiba to do such a thing.

Re:HP Does this ...

[darkeye]

yeah, I had the same experience - the burning process fails, and then they want to charge you when they send the recovery DVD. costs you time & money.

which can do nothing else, but _delete_ everything from your HDD, and install a 20GB 'recovery partition', which is incidentally the boot partition as well - there is no way you can remove it and maintain a working system.

and yes, it does cause permanent data loss: it deletes all partitions from your drive at the beginning of the 'recovery' process

I ended up installing a 'standard' Windows install DVD - which works a lot better.

whereas if they just included the standard install media in the first place, it would have been much cheaper for everyone: me, their support staff, mailing, etc.

Re:HP Does this ...

[ffreeloader]

My wife recently bought an HP laptop. It comes with the recovery stuff on a partition.

You get one time you can burn a physical recovery disk. When we tried it, the process failed. Leaving you with no more tries at a recovery disk, and no recovery disk.

Very annoying. Combine that with the performance of the laptop, and we won't be buying anything else from HP because they're products are overpriced and crappy. Ripping a CD created MP3 with really bad jitter and noise -- lame for a dual core machine which wasn't doing anything else at the time.

Posting anonymously because my wife works for HP and we bought it using her discount. :-P

I don't work for HP, but my experience with HP laptops is similar to yours.

When I got mine it wouldn't play videos without skipping, jumping, tearing, etc.... It was bad enough that any form of video playback was unusable. Video and audio recording were just as bad. Ripping cd's to disk put the cpu at 100% usage and resulted in lousy playback.

Two days of that was enough. I wiped out the recovery partition along with the factory partitions and installed Debian. It's been a decent laptop ever since. All problems with audio and video playback and recording vanished and it's been rock solid ever since. The laptop is now 5 years old and still running strong. I doubt it would handle Vista or 7, and I'm not about to even waste the time to try them as Debian Sid runs very well on it, plus I've left all things MS behind.

From the grub screen to being fully logged into a working environment takes exactly 1 minute. That includes entering my user name and password. Not bad for a single core Turion and a 4200 rpm hard drive.

Re:HP Does this ...

[mlts]

I learned that lesson with all PC makers. That is why if I get tasked with helping someone with a new PC, first thing I do is boot it from a Knoppix CD, plug in an external drive, and both tar and dd off the partitions. This gives me an image I know will work. Then I boot a TrueImage or MaxBlast CD and use that to image the partitions. The reason I do both is that for a novice user, TrueImage is easier to use, but I know the Linux dd image is able to put back exactly how something was laid out, sector by sector in case a PC maker decides to an attempt at DRM.

After that is done, I boot the machine, make the recovery DVDs (preferably onto dual layer DVD+R media), then make ISO images of those.

It sounds like a lot of work, but it ensures that the machine's software can be put exactly into the state it was when it was opened.

Of course, after I do all of this, I boot Knoppix again, dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda, zeroing out every nook and cranny of the drive, then install the OS of choice from scratch. One of the first and fundamental rules of system administration is never go with what is preinstalled, unless it is a custom OS load just for that box from the factory.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well mine is just over 2 years old and uptodate on bios upgrades (the last one made the heat problem worse) and i could cook bacon on it. From the research i've done on the problem it seems to be the location of the heatsinks and the cpu/gpu placement and their cheapness. Apparently a shim of copper will improve the problem I just haven't got around to doing it yet.

Re:HP Does this ...

[j_sp_r]

All consumer laptops are crap, you should go for the business variants (which incidentally cost about twice as much).

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

My wifes compaq (hp) runs ridiculously hot. On some desk surfaces it will overheat and shutdown after simply an hour of being on, not actually doing anything other than backing up to an external hard drive. ~1yr old. Is a horrible design to be certain.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you run the onboard recovery it will reset the "burn attempts" counter, and you can burn another copy of the recovery software. :)

Re:HP Does this ...

[sjwest]

I had that problem too with hp recovery disks using the dvdrw.

Fortunately i made two copies of the disks. Primary failed on first ms screwup, the copy worked fine. The good news is that most hp laptops can run a version of linux. Quite why ms deserve money for supplying this crap is beyond me as the disk is full of ms bloat, or why HP put up with ms is beyond me

Its was not my machine and being based in europe means the indian hp employees also only wants to help american clients if you use the online tools in vista which come with the dvd. Top score HP.

Asus are more comical as I have eee pc and even though the machine has no dvd i have a disk of some sort of windoze but no means of recovering to it without buying a usb dvd thing. I run linux on that too.

I hope the bribe ms pays to hp is a lot of money.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Following the instructions in http://www.troublefixers.com/create-more-than-one-set-of-recovery-cd-on-hp-laptop-computer/ i've burnt 3 copies and used them all at various times so it is as many copies as you want to make by repeating the process. When dealing with friends HP's (if they don't follow my recommendations) I always make a copy for them and a copy for me to keep for when they lose their set as they always do about 30minutes before they need them.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can tell you a few things about that.

1st. the software that creates the recovery discs your HP computer came with, has a mechanism to detect when the creation has failed and allows you to retry, (first verify files, then copy to cd, then verify files on cd, if not ok -> start again) making it very difficult to fail at the recording process.

2nd. In the case the HP recovery disc creator software fails; you have the ability to create the recovery disc as ISO images and burn them with a different recording software.

3rd. In the case that still you are unable to create them; you can use something called warranty, that at least in my contry is for 90 days for a software product, and you can receive from HP at no cost the recovery discs for the software that you have purchashed with the unit.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Note that the recovery discs cost $16.03 in the US from the hp support web site. Since I suspect that a large number of users would take their machine to a
computer repair place if they had a problem HP saves them from having things they can not use. Likewise if you buy a computer thru a college, likley you would
take it to the campus repair place to fix, and they have all the tools needed. Folks here are different from average folks, in that they know how to install
and the like, while most folks don't even understand the Windows Explorer and the concept of directories.

Re:HP Does this ...

[rickb928]

Great swing, pitch was a strike, situation dictated you hit, not strike out.

Sadly, you fouled it into the mitt. Strike three. Looked good, though. The scouts still think you have a great swing, just can't execute all the time.

Pity. Back to the minor leagues for you.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell/Pentium wut?

Re:HP Does this ...

[rickb928]

Yup. I image all my personal machines. It's the only way to be sure.

At work, I keep backups in two different places and a DVD. They re-image for any reason, and I have to rebuild in a hurry, so I document my own machine better than our devs document our apps.

Re:HP Does this ...

[DMoylan]

i've seen this as well. however when i recovered from the recovery partition and set the system back to factory defaults it let me burn the disk again.

Re:HP Does this ...

[CmdrPorno]

One of the first and fundamental rules of system administration is never go with what is preinstalled...

This is a lot harder with Windows Genuine Advantage, especially when Microsoft rolls out a new version and the user gets prompted to install it.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Locutus]

try Linux on the computer and you might be surprised at how much better it runs. Windows XP was bad enough but if you are talking about Windows Vista or even Windows 7, you're more likely seeing flaws in the OS design instead of hardware problems.

Give LinuxMint.com a try and install it in the Windows partition with WUBI so you don't even have to repartition. When you reboot, you'll see Linux Mint listed as a boot option. I prefer K3B but basero or something like that might do the CD ripping for you.

LoB

Re:HP Does this ...

[foo fighter]

Shoulda bought a Mac.

Re:HP Does this ...

[SleazyRidr]

Good thing you posted anonymously there. Remember that funny doesn't do anything for your karma, but flamebait does. Any jokes that go over the mods head will hurt you.

Re:HP Does this ...

[darrylo]

AFAIK, most (all?) of the recovery-DVD-burning software only allows one burn. I don't think HP is unique in this.

I've had two HP laptops, and both managed to burn the recovery DVD set fine. The problem I have is that I tend to lose the recovery DVDs. :-) Now, HP laptops may or may not be a POS, but I've never found recovery DVD burning to be a reason.

(My previous HP laptop was a POS, having done a thermal shutdown, corrupting the disk, and necessitating a Win7 reinstall. My current laptop is a midrange HP dm4-1063cl, and this one's pretty good, except for the abominably wretched trackpad. However, I have a fine bluetooth mouse that fixes that problem.)

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, what a looser!

Re:HP Does this ...

[Blakey Rat]

Sorry, I could have warned you. I bought an HP tablet a few years ago-- never again!

HP products are crap. The hardware actually runs decently, but they piss all over the software, don't give you an OS DVD, treat you like shit on the phone when you call up and ask for the OS DVD. (Oh, and don't bother anyway-- the DVD from HP actually, unbelievably, has all the crapware ON IT! You can't restore Windows without restoring the crapware. I paid fucking $20 for that useless-ass disk.)

Meanwhile, last time I bought a Dell, it shipped with zero crapware (I think the browser homepage was changed, and it had a support program to upgrade drivers that I don't consider crapware because it didn't show me ads or slow computer performance.) They included a CLEAN OS DVD, with Dell's own programs on another (optional) disk. And when I called them up, even though the call center was in India, they sent me a spare wifi card for free, going above and beyond the warranty period. (Turns out the problem was software related.)

I'm not saying Dell is the best option out there, but I can guarantee I'm sure as hell never buying an HP again.

Re:HP Does this ...

[mcgrew]

It seems they haven't changed much. About ten years ago Evil-X (my wife at the time) also bought an HP laptop, and it, too, was an utter piece of effluent. But my guess is your CD ripping problem stems from the software you're using; I had no trouble ripping CDs with a 486, and the ex's laptop even sampled LPs with no problem.

Google for EAC; that's what I use. It's free, and makes good quality rips and burns. Its only drawback is bad documentation and a bit of a learning curve (not very intuitive).

Um, well... you may have a defective CD burner, though. If EAC doesn't help, buy a new laptop and give that one to charity.

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't remember what kind of machine it was, but that happened to a friend of mine's computer a few years ago. Tried to burn the disc, it failed, and we were not allowed to try again.

If they expect part of your hard drive to be reserved for these "recovery" files, they should have to pay you a storage fee each year. ;)

Re:HP Does this ...

[Anonymous Coward]

You get one time you can burn a physical recovery disk. When we tried it, the process failed. Leaving you with no more tries at a recovery disk, and no recovery disk.

This is pure FUD.

HP Recovery Disc Creation is designed to allow you one complete working copy, not one attempt at burning. Only after a completed burn does the Recovery Manager create a file on the system which is checks on startup (and if found prevents burning another copy). Pro-tip: Delete the file, and you can burn another set of recovery discs. The created file is stored on the recovery partition and is named hpdrcu.prc or hpcd.sys on older systems.

Lies tarnish us all, but then you probably work for Dell...

why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[Joe The Dragon]

why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows that just need your key that is on the COA so you don't need to torrent the iso?

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[operagost]

They have this for volume license customers, but SOHO gets the shaft.

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[mark72005]

Because all Microsoft's attempts to secure anything end in epic fail.

The best security measure they have (which is not saying a lot) is the simple fact that not everyone in the world has a physical disk.

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[shadowrat]

http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft/Windows-Windows-7/category/102

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[Sycraft-fu]

They don't seem to advertise it, but they do. Digitalreiver hosts it for them:

http://www.mydigitallife.info/2009/10/25/windows-7-64-bit-x64-direct-download-links/

You require a license to use it, of course, but that is the software.

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[Cheviot]

You can just order the disk alone from Microsoft at the Microsoft Supplemental Parts center. 800-360-7561

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[quickgold192]

Because if the iso was free but locked, and "buying the software" involved simply getting an unlock code, the average person would start to wonder what he was buying. (If I can get the iso for free and *guess* an unlock code, I must not be doing anything wrong!) On the same note, if people buy something for $150, they'll want $150 dollars worth of product whether it's a DVD/CD encased in an over sized hard plastic container or a 16GB file that you have to make space for. It's kind of like being able to get a car for free but having to pay 10K for the sparkplug.

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[Locutus]

probably because Microsoft is the one behind this mess. they want you to purchase a new computer with a new copy of Windows or go out and purchase a new licensed CD. They don't want standard Windows installation discs on the market because it is easier to find a product key to use than it is to get a working Windows install CD.

Remember when you got a copy of the standard installation discs with the PC? You could get the OS installation, not a modified and customized imaging-only type of CD but a full installation disc. Microsoft got the idea that if you had that disc, you would install it on many computers even though it was illegal to do so. Then came the custom installation or imaging CD which only worked on your computer or one exactly like it. Windows activation followed and then the elimination of the CD all together and only a recovery partition which was tied to your boot sector so installing Linux or any other OS or boot manager meant your recovery sector was useless.

To follow Microsoft's marketing speak, 'Customers have asked for a simpler way to install Microsoft Windows and we believe putting the software on the fastest media, the hard disk, is what's best for the customer.' It's all bull and more talk to best scrap your wallet clean. IMO

Me, I just download an ISO from ubuntu.com, linuxmint.com, fedoraproject.org, opensuse.org, knoppix.net, etc and move on.

LoB

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[xtracto]

So, which of those links takes me to download a copy of Windows 7 in which I can just put the legal key that came under my laptop?

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[commodore64_love]

>>>only a recovery partition which was tied to your boot sector so installing Linux or any other OS or boot manager meant your recovery sector was useless.

Really? I just learned something new. This pretty much proves the new 2000s Microsoft is better than the old 90s Microsoft (which was sued by the US and EU for various nefarious practices). I really don't understand Microsoft apologists that defend this company. It's ridiculous that you can't even install a dual-boot Windows/Linux or Windows/Other setup without destroying the "restore windows" sector.

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[clarkn0va]

That would be redundant, seeing how they've already outsourced that to the pirate bay and its patron with zero cost to themselves.

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[clarkn0va]

Doh! s/patron/patrons/

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[mounthood]

>>>only a recovery partition which was tied to your boot sector so installing Linux or any other OS or boot manager meant your recovery sector was useless.

Really? I just learned something new. This pretty much proves the new 2000s Microsoft is better than the old 90s Microsoft (which was sued by the US and EU for various nefarious practices). I really don't understand Microsoft apologists that defend this company. It's ridiculous that you can't even install a dual-boot Windows/Linux or Windows/Other setup without destroying the "restore windows" sector.

Forget the apologists, what about everybody else. Where are the AG's investigating this? Why is it that the force of government ignores corporate abuse until it becomes so egregious - and so well understood - that everybody sees it's wrong?

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[tunapez]

Please someone answer the OP's question: Where do you download legit OEM iso's?

I recently joined Technet b/c multiple MCP's informed me I could download ANY iso's my heart desired. I asked all three, "OEM disks, too?" They all assured me it was true. Guess what? Not true.

90%+ of the computers in the field are oem installs, damned if I'm going to buy two of every flavor (x86/x64) under the sun to support Vista SP2 or SP7(no luck editing ei.cfg, MS closed the loophole or I'm doing it wrong?). So, I've been exercising many XP downgrade rights since the original Vista arrived... install fresh XP with no bloatware AND give them an install CD for future maintenance or reloading. Most non-techs want to go back to XP anyway. With 4+GB machines becoming the norm, that path is no longer advantageous, and linux is still not ready for non-techy users, IMO.

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[ooshna]

Now if I could just find some winxp isos so when I'm fixing everyone's shitty Dell's I don't have to use a pirated version.

Re:why can't MS have easy to get iso's for windows

[dupeisdead]

It's not Microsoft that did that. it's the OEM manufacturer themselves. (hp/dell/toshiba/acer etc etc). They usually use a generic product key that's bios locked to a set of hardware. that's all oem vendor, not microsoft. Blame the right company :P

Not necessarily a rip-off

[FalconZero]

Personally, I have never used a recovery CD. When I buy a PC - I do not need or want the recovery CD (It just fills up cabinet space). If this cost is unbundled (and I'm not saying it is) - I'd prefer to pay a little less and not receive the physical media.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[ScottCooperDotNet]

As opposed to wasting HDD space instead?

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[Anonymous Coward]

At a price of a few pennies, your not going to save much.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[zzsmirkzz]

Personally, I don't want a recovery CD, I want the Windows Install CD and a Driver CD. I just bought an HP which reminded me to make my one set of recovery disks (which I did, 3 DVD's). However, what I really wanted to do was format it and re-install windows to get rid of all the junk they pre-loaded on it.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[Anonymous Coward]

What? You don't know how to format?

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[AndrewNeo]

Well, if you don't plan on actually using the recovery disk (if you, say, have a copy of the Windows install DVD, and know how to install your own drivers) then you can just get rid of the partition.

I still burn a recovery disk from the machine, just to be safe, but then promptly wipe the whole drive clean with a new Windows install.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[FalconZero]

Nope.

Windows computers I look after either have remote deployment or I already have appropriate physical media (I've got drawers stuffed full of the shiny holographic XPsp2 CDs.) (Although I admit that route loses the install time OEM tailored drivers)

As for Linux machines, the distros are available everywhere - even if I didn't have a live flashdrive.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[morgan_greywolf]

If you know what you're doing, you don't need a recovery CD or even the stupid HDD partition that they create to contain it. System Rescue CD can do things like take an image of the HDD, restore an image, fix messed-up partitions, recover the administrative passwords, allow you to edit boot.ini options on Windows, fix broken filesystems, etc.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[commodore64_love]

>>>I'd prefer to pay a little less

It's only ~10 cents for the company to mass-produce a DVD and include it with your new computer. You're saving very little. And you're lucky that you've "never" needed to use the restore disc, because in the 8 years I've owned this PC, I've had to do a Restore thrice. Once when the power supply died (and messed-up the boot block), and again when Windows XP refused to go past the loading screen for some unknown reason, and a third time when my networking card inexplicably "disappeared" causing major system slowdowns.

And on my brother's Vista machine I've used the restore disc twice in three years.

Having a restore disc is really not "optional". It's just as important as having a backup of your files - going without it would be foolish unless you enjoy having a perfectly good PC turn into a brick that you can't restore to like-new condition.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[Inda]

I made a disk for my laptop 3.5 years ago.

Today, the battery holds about 10 minutes charge. The fan is slow and full of dust, and unless I create some extra air flow by tilting it on a coaster, it overheats when playing videos. One of the keys is a bit sticky. The touchpad has lost a big section of the paint from overuse. The female power port is getting loose.

Oh, and some sectors on the HDD are failing and it takes two attempts to boot. This has been happening for over a month. We all know what happens next.

Buy a new HDD, fix the fan, replace the battery, pull the sticky key out and clean, and forget the touchpad paint and then use a recovery disk?

Or just buy a new laptop?

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[natehoy]

So what do you do when you experience a hardware failure? Are you one of the lucky ones that have never experienced one?

Do you run Linux and just have no interest in being able to recover Windows, or do you just replace the whole computer if something goes wrong?

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[Voyager529]

I, and presumably most of the rest of the crowd here at Slashdot, are in agreement with you on both accounts. The issue is everyone else...

-OS/Driver/App discs were the standard, and should still be so in an ideal world. The problem is that everyone wants a cheap computer. That Norton demo probably shaved $2 off the cost of your laptop. The Lite version of Nero another $2. That eBay icon cut another dollar off. Lather, rinse, repeat, and all that bundleware probably shaved $20-$50 off the cost of your machine. The problem was that users were only being subjected to it the first time they unboxed it, never when they recovered. If you're going to give HP/Dell/Acer/Sony between six and eight figures to load your crap, you want to make sure that the investment pays off as practically as possible. Whether OEMs were able to get more money by slipstreaming the bloat into the recovery media or the third parties were threatening to kill off the revenue stream, I don't know, but it simply makes business sense to do it this way.

-Recovery media gives a known starting point. Windows/OS/App discs allow end users to make decisions during the restoration process. While the Slashdot crowd can make competent decisions, I'd wager that at least 7 out of 10 Dell/HP customers couldn't successfully bring their machine back to the official factory spec using windows/driver/app discs. As such, the support burden increases instead of decreases. Recovery media gives a few prompts, and then doesn't prompt the user to do anything but swap discs thereafter.

-Recovery partitions helped solve the "I put my discs in a safe place" and the "I threw them out...they weren't just packaging?" problems. My solution to this would have been to put the discs in a sleeve inside the case and then have the user access them when told to by support, but the partition thing does solve the problem as well.

-I had a friend once who made the mistake of letting her son on her laptop - the only more problematic mistake was letting the son attempt to fix it. He triggered the system recovery option and restored it to its out-of-the-box glory. Well, among the things HP did right was to back up the profile folder before performing the restore. A little digging on the hard drive showed that all of her documents were still intact, so the child lived. Is she a dolt for not having her stuff backed up? yes. Did this give her the scare she needed to back up more regularly? you bet. Nonetheless, OS/driver/app discs don't perform that task automatically; they're not designed to do that.

-While recovery partitions and applications take an age and a half to burn the media, it does provide two advantages over ISOs. First, it accomodates different media. End users can burn their recovery discs on CD-R, DVD-R, or DVD-R DL media. Redundant ISO files for each flavor of media starts to take up ridiculous amounts of hard disk space, especially if it's in addition to a recovery partition. Second, the utilities I've used have run a read verification pass before asking for the next disc. It does take hours to burn the discs, but you know they'll work when you need them.

In summary, I agree with your premise that I'd prefer plain discs over specialized recovery media. I also realize that between trusting end users with Windows/Driver install discs and recovery media that does all the thinking for them, I can't possibly blame OEMs for going the recovery route. The only other thing I could think of that might work better would be to license some Acronis code and, after the user has run through all the first-run dialogs, have Acronis image the drive to optical media.

I think the best compromise would be to provide plain discs for order or ISO download at a nominal fee; my time is worth the $14.95 I'd save doing a vanilla Windows install.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[Ephemeriis]

Personally, I don't want a recovery CD, I want the Windows Install CD and a Driver CD. I just bought an HP which reminded me to make my one set of recovery disks (which I did, 3 DVD's). However, what I really wanted to do was format it and re-install windows to get rid of all the junk they pre-loaded on it.

That combination of a Windows install CD and a driver CD is basically what we're referring to.

Various vendors package things somewhat differently... Some have an all-in-one recovery disc that installs Windows, loads drivers, and installs OEM software. Others just include a basic Windows disc, a driver disc, and a few software discs.

The problem isn't that there's no disc specifically labeled "recovery" - the problem is that there's no physical media that can be used to install Windows on a cleanly formatted HDD.

Sure, if you've got your own Windows install media, then you aren't going to need another disc. But many folks don't. Many folks only have the discs that came with the computer, as well as whatever other software (games/apps/whatever) they've purchased.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[luther349]

well the fan will cost a couple dollars there not expensive. so the hdd will cost you the most. you can get the battery from the ebay store ama computer store seller johnxsc. for around 30$ and its high quality. so the repair bill for that hp isnt at the cost of a new laptop not even a low end one.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[FalconZero]

Having a restore disc is really not "optional". It's just as important as having a backup of your files

I can see your point, but I disagree. I've had plenty of hardware failures, it's just that I've never found a restore disc to be that useful. The only real benefit of a restore CD (for restoring, rather than OEM economic purposes) is the drivers, and I find they get out of date pretty fast. When I restore (or repair) a Win install, I'll use a Win disk and download the new drivers directly.

That said, as I've said in reply to a comment above, many of my machines are remote deployment, or Linux (I use Linux personally).

I'm not saying unbundling the CD is right for everyone, but it is for me.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[FalconZero]

Hope you don't mind me requoting some of my earlier comments :

I've had plenty of hardware failures, it's just that I've never found a restore disc to be that useful. The only real benefit of a restore CD (for restoring, rather than OEM economic purposes) is the drivers, and I find they get out of date pretty fast. When I restore (or repair) a Win install, I'll use a Win disk and download the new drivers directly.

Windows computers I look after either have remote deployment or I already have appropriate physical media (I've got drawers stuffed full of the shiny holographic XPsp2 CDs.)

As for Linux machines, the distros are available everywhere - even if I didn't have a live flashdrive.

I'm not saying unbundling the CD is right for everyone, but it is for me.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[zzsmirkzz]

I know exactly what you and the summary are referring to; that you want a physical disk to recover from should the HD fail (and render the Recovery Partition useless). I was pointing out that I don't want a recovery image of the machine as it was when it was sent to me (although for many this would suffice), I want the actual Windows Install CD/DVD (whose license I paid> for) and any additional drivers that are not included in the base install of Windows.

There are a few reasons for this, the first being that I'd like to start my machine with a 'clean' install of windows, that has no bloat-ware or trial-versions of software I will never use. Additionally, there are more things that one can do with a Windows Install disk than just install windows.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[natehoy]

I've encountered a half-dozen OEM machines that needed a reload (HP in particular), and my standard Win discs don't recognize the code printed on the little sticker on the case as being valid. Fortunately, those were all dumpster-diver specials that were rebuilt for people who just needed a computer for email, web, etc. So I installed the latest Ubuntu on it and showed them the software repository, and they'll be in computer hog heaven for a long time without having to buy any more software.

So, yes, I agree with you in principle - if the vendor provides a license key that can be used with a standard Win disc, chances are most semi-experienced people would want to use the standard Win disc and not the bloatware garbage with preinstalled ancient drivers that the manufacturers provide.

But many manufacturers don't, and given the cost of the disc I think on balance I'd rather have a disc that can install SOMETHING to the machine rather than no ability to load Windows on the machine at all, for those people who need Windows (and have paid for a license for same in their computer's purchase price).

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[jschmitz]

Don't most slashdotters smoke the OS on the machine they buy anyways and load a clean version of whatever flavor you enjoi without all the bs vendorware?? Why are their so many comments on this?

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[sheph]

So when your HD fails what do you do? Go buy a retail copy of Windows?

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[mlts]

Most of us here do this, as this is basic sysadmin 101 stuff. But Joe Sixpack and Aunt Tillie don't. They buy the machine at S-Mart, grab a grubby key to cut the tape on the box, dump the parts out, and perhaps look at the "read me first" poster to see that the color-coded wires match the right sockets. Then they turn the machine on, and start pointing and drooling until hardware failure or malware gets them. Here is the point where most of us get sucked into the equation:

Joe Sixpack comes home from work, PBR in hand, looks at the monitor, and finds that it is off or at a blue screen. After tapping a key, maybe mashing the power button a couple times, first thing he will do is find someone "geekish" to call and bellow at them, "FIX MY COMPUTER, YOU KNUCKLEHEAD".

Of course, when someone clued comes over (either because Joe Sixpack is family, or a close friend of a friend) and asks where any CD or DVD media is. As of this point, not just the data on the primary partition is scrozzled, but the recovery partition is sitting right with it in the bitbucket. Of course, Joe will will hand you a stack of random things, likely urine stained by the blue-tick hound/Rottie mix who you just pried off your leg as you walked in the door. Of course, none of them is a boot CD, although you will find plenty of Encarta disks, maybe a Works disk, and an application or two. Of course, nothing that can be used as true boot media to recover the machine. So what ends up happening is that you end up at the nearest computer store looking for an OEM copy of Windows 7. Then, there is a good chance that Joe might just say, "Its $100 for an OEM copy, but I can buy this new machine for $WHATEVER". Result: He lugs a new machine home and the cycle starts again.

Compare this to the average Slashdotter who, if they are even running Windows and they have an inoperable machine, will boot recovery media, copy off anything possible, and if that isn't doable, just boot off the PXE server, fire up the backup program's bare metal functionality, start the restore, and while that is going on, have a couple drinks of Sam Adams Utopia, or another top tier beverage. Total time lost? Couple hours. Total data lost? None, because the backup program was configured to monitor changes to critical documents (even if they were WoW screenshots) and save them off in real time to a dedicated backup server.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[SnarfQuest]

When you finally discover that you need one, you'll learn that, besides the generic Windows operating system, the original disk would have included drivers for all the nonstandard hardware that the PC maker used on your machine. So after installing a generic copy of Windows, you;ll discover that your 17" display only works at 400X320, your sound card doesn't work at all, your ethernet port and WIFI don't appear to exist, the USB ports sometimes work for seconds at a time, and only 640K of ram is available. And Windows is claiming you have a pirated copy.

Good thing you have all that extra shelf space available.

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[mcgrew]

You guys are almost out of my realm here, as I've only bought four complete computers in my life, and two of them were a Timex TS-1000 and a TRS-80 MC10 (1982 and 1983). The third was a used IBM XT I bought in 1987, and just bought parts from then on. At one time I probably had the fastest IBM-XT in the world, because the only original parts in it were the case and power supply. My latest is a netbook, so obviously it has no recovery CD, having no drive.

However, when a friend's PC goes titsup I'm the poor schmuck who has to fix it ("hey, call mcgrew, he builds his OWN computers!"), and I've found that a recovery CD saves a lot of time, particularly if the hard drive is what's gone south.

I have a partial laptop I bought for $20 (no no working hard drive), too bad it doesn't have a recovery CD. Of course, I'll just put Linux on it when I replace the hard drive. And actually, installing Linux after running the recovery disks on friends' computers keeps them from "breaking" so often, since it's usually a virus that kills the PC. I install Mandriva dual boot, and disable networking on the Windows side. Problem solved!

Re:Not necessarily a rip-off

[jschmitz]

I like this post however now I think only hipsters drink PBR..but that's for another thread = )

Just happened to me

[dFaust]

Well, not me directly. My father bought my son an eMachines computer, against my advice, this past Christmas. My son was staying with my folks this past month, with his computer, and it turned out the hard drive failed (despite being only 7 months old). My dad ended up paying for a recovery disc and then taking it to Best Buy (presumably where he bought the computer) for them to install it - which I'm guessing wasn't free. It wouldn't have necessarily been cheaper to get a new computer, but it sounded like a big crap fest. And with that kind of quality, what's the cost associated when you actually care about the data on your hard drive? Sadly, getting my parents or son to do regular backups just ain't gonna happen.

Re:Just happened to me

[charles xavier]

At only seven months old, was the machine not under warrenty? It's been a long time since I've bought a computer from a box store, but I was under the impression that one year warrenties come standard with computers.

Re:Just happened to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Have them sign up, and use, a Dropbox account. It is primarily used to sync data across multiple computers, but it can act as a remote backup if you only have one computer. Plus, the first 2 gigabytes of space are free.

Re:Just happened to me

[initdeep]

ding ding ding.

Re:Just happened to me

[tophermeyer]

They do, I just had some repairs done on a laptop from Best Buy.

My experience was that they tried really hard to get me to buy their extended warranty and data protection service before they would even talk to me about the manufacturers warranty. After spending 20 minutes on the phone with them all they did was just gave me the phone number to contact Dell support. Dell, of course, spent more time trying to sell me on their extended warranty service before they would talk to me about the existing manufacturers warranty.

If you buy electronics from any of the box stores, you should educate yourself on what warranty support you already have before taking it in. They will sell you hard on their extended warranties (even after the device is broken).

Re:Just happened to me

[AhabTheArab]

Have them sign up, and use

Come on now, you know that's too much work for most users.

Re:Just happened to me

[icebraining]

They have less than 7 months of warranty? Damn, your consumer protection laws suck. 'round here is two years minimum per law.

Infuriating

[hcpxvi]

This is indeed one of the most infuriating things about purchasing a new computer. How much money can it save? Surely the manufacturing cost of an optical disc produced in bulk is in the noise compared to producing and shipping a laptop? Heck, Canonical will ship you a disc with Ubuntu on for free, so it can't be that pricy.

Actually, perhaps the Linux zealot faction should welcome the "no OS discs" trend. Faced with a machine where you have had to replace the HDD, it is nowadays much easier to obtain and install Linux than to get your hands on the media from which to re-install Windows.

Re:Infuriating

[Anonymous Coward]

>>> Canonical will ship you a disc with Ubuntu on for free, so it can't be that pricy.

Not quite.

From the Ubuntu site, http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/cds , "Please consider carefully before you make a request as the number of CDs we can distribute is limited, and the cost of providing them is high."

Re:Infuriating

[couchslug]

"Actually, perhaps the Linux zealot faction should welcome the "no OS discs" trend. "

Not always. I still backed up Vista before nuking it for Ubuntu. If I sell the machine or need to fix another like it, they will come in handy.

Re:Infuriating

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, perhaps the Linux zealot faction should welcome the "no OS discs" trend. Faced with a machine where you have had to replace the HDD, it is nowadays much easier to obtain and install Linux than to get your hands on the media from which to re-install Windows.

Did precisely this when my girlfriend's laptop got its hard drive replaced. They sent it back with a note saying "Restore it from the recovery disc". We looked in the bundle of laptop-associated-stuff, found only a note saying "Good news, everyone! Your recovery disc is on the hard drive!". Does anyone actually read these things before they need them? One ISO of Ubuntu later...

She actually liked Ubuntu. But the next time it broke, the support service tried to play the "Using Linux invalidates your warranty" card. She talked them round, but her new laptop has Windows again, and will do until it's out of warranty.

Re:Infuriating

[Thelasko]

Heck, Canonical will ship you a disc with Ubuntu on for free, so it can't be that pricy.

Canonical had to do some cutbacks to it's ShipIt program due to the high costs.

Re:Infuriating

[TangoMargarine]

Heck, Canonical will ship you a disc with Ubuntu on for free, so it can't be that pricy.

You did see the article about how Canonical is running at a loss, right?

Usage

[MistrX]

Pfff... I never like recovery discs. Every grain of personalisation is gone since the company you bought the computer from placed their wallpapers and custom themes all over the place. Even worse, the harddrive is littered with trials of virusscanners or other advertisement software. Always had that personal drive for your music? It's gone! The last recovery disc I used also 'restored' they drive mapping replacing all partitions to make it factory default again. And there is nothing you can do about it. No settings, no parameters you can set. C drive was wiped like it should, but forget about other partitions and everything on it aswell.

I HATE recovery discs. Just do it yourself by loading a boot diskette/USB/other external device and install a clean copy of your favorite OS which mostly can be ripped from the recovery disc themselves.

Re:Usage

[petermgreen]

Personally I like what dell does with thier buisness machines. The discs they ship (at least the XP ones, I haven't tried the vista or win7 ones) are windows install CDs (not "recovery CDs") that use the normal windows installer, don't insist on wiping the hard drive, don't seem to install andy crapware and yet provided you install them on a dell they will install without any activation BS.

Re:Usage

[initdeep]

it's the same with all versions of windows from Dell.
You get the OS install disc
A driver disc
and a "preloaded applications" disc

you choose what to install.

however, facts like these don't go well with the slashtard mentality and group bitch session articles like these produce.

Re:Usage

[Domint]

This continues to be true for their Vista and Windows 7 recovery media as well. I have stacks of the things here at work, and have even used them to "recover" non-Dell hardware, with a valid license activation key.

Re:Usage

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, Dell's approach is great! Any dell disc works with any dell hardware, no need to search around for activation codes either. When I receive a new dell, my first task is to wipe & re-install with the Dell disc to give myself a fresh install without the crapware. Perfect.

Why not leave the HDD as is too.

[Anonymous Coward]

So when will the OEM vendors just leave the HDD for what it is and ship it without any pseudorandom bytes pre-written to it? Would save them a lot of hassle!

Re:Why not leave the HDD as is too.

[Anonymous Coward]

Duh, because then they wouldn't get $X per box for the pre-installed trialware.

don't buy without

[djfake]

The Joysystems computers (off-lease refurbs) that are sold at Microcenters actually advertise the fact that they come with a recovery disc. Every Apple computer comes with one, and it's usually a free option for most Dell purchases. In short, I wouldn't purchase a system without one. Doesn't need to be more complicated than that, does it?

I don't think it is just cost

[Sycraft-fu]

Maybe not even primarily. It is an ease of use sort of thing. Remember: We are talking about the mass market here. Most people are not computer savvy. So if their system blows up, they want a simple fix. When it comes down to problems relating to the disk, most of them are going to be one of two things:

1) The installed OS got messed up somehow. A reinstall is the answer.

2) The hard disk failed. A replacement is the answer.

For #2, the company gets involved and replaces the disk, which of course comes loaded with the software. For #1, a recovery partition is the easier way to go. They just have the user press a button on startup and say "Yes, redo my system." Keeps the complexity way down.

Please remember that in most cases the recovery discs were many. For the Gateways we were getting at work there were three: A Windows reisntall disc, a drivers disc, and an apps disc, some times more than one apps disc. So you had to install Windows, put in the driver disc and choose the right ones (they were for a few models, not your specific system), and then install the apps. Rather complex for an ordinary user.

Thus I don't see a big problem here. If you are a power user, make the discs, or simply download the correct version of Windows for the system (Google around, Digitalriver provides legit downloads for Windows 7 to use with systems that already have a license). If not, this is an easy way to deal with things.

Re:I don't think it is just cost

[Silentknyght]

Most people are not computer savvy. So if their system blows up, they want a simple fix. When it comes down to problems relating to the disk, most of them are going to be one of two things:

1) The installed OS got messed up somehow. A reinstall is the answer.

2) The hard disk failed. A replacement is the answer.

(I gave up mod points for this)

Those are usually the most efficient (in time and/or money) solutions for those of us who are computer savvy. Sure, it's technically not finding "the problem" and fixing (only) "the problem," but it saves a potential crapton of time trying to figure out what clueless user #0528 did to royally screw things up. Plus, as another poster rightly stated, the cost/benefit is nonexistent; it's about equal whether you pay for someone to find and fix (only) "the problem", versus pay for a wipe/restore/replace solution.

Re:I don't think it is just cost

[mlts]

With the tech support of most computer places, #1 is simple.

#2 however becomes hair-pulling with calling support with some PC vendors. You get on hold for 1-2 hours, told by a tech to run the diagnostics in Windows, then after repeating that you can't due to a dead HDD, he hangs up on you after accusing you of being "difficult". At least at big box stores, you have a couple days to take the whole thing back.

Hard disk failure? Unlikely...

[damn_registrars]

no physical copy of the operating system they paid for if (or when) the hard disk fails

I know very few people who have recently reinstalled their OS due to hard drive failure. On the other hand, I know quite a few people who have had to reinstall their OS because their OS was a craptastic pile of failure that in one way or another became unusable due to non-hardware issues.

I hate having to be the one to say it...

[randomaxe]

...but every Mac I've ever bought has had install discs for the OS and any additional applications in the box. They are rarely needed, since Time Machine does a fantastic job of providing a backup that I can restore to, but they are there.

That in itself might be worth the so-called "Apple Tax".

Re:I hate having to be the one to say it...

[businessnerd]

...but every Mac I've ever bought has had install discs for the OS and any additional applications in the box. They are rarely needed, since Time Machine does a fantastic job of providing a backup that I can restore to, but they are there. That in itself might be worth the so-called "Apple Tax".

Every Dell I have ever bought has had install discs for the OS and any additional applications in the box. How do you like them "Apple Taxes"?

Re:I hate having to be the one to say it...

[randomaxe]

Given that the hardware in every Dell I've ever used has been utter shit (seriously, they shipped my employer several dozen desktops, and when they couldn't get dual monitors working via DVI, they comped us a bunch of VGA splitters. THAT WAS THEIR SOLUTION.), I like that "Apple Tax" very much, thank you.

Re:I hate having to be the one to say it...

[ducomputergeek]

Say what you want, but I've never had a Mac give me less than 5 years of use. The only exception to that were my last PowerMac G5 and mac minis I had in a house that got destroyed by a storm. (6 100+ year old trees fell on the house. Thankfully I wasn't there at the time.). Even then I had 4 solid years out of them. I still have a PowerBook 12" sitting next to me that has pretty much been on every day for the past 5 years and is still going. Only thing I've replaced was the battery once and a couple power supplies due to a puppy chewing through the cable. Two costs with any laptop you keep over 3 years. (unless you don't have a puppy). I did one OS upgrade from 10.4 to 10.5. Total cost $40 (family pack).

I know the PowerBook was like $2500 new, but considering the amount of time I've saved in the past 5 years not having to deal with the virus of the week and reinstall of the quarter, it's saved me far more in time than any premium I paid for it up front.

Re:I hate having to be the one to say it...

[initdeep]

wow.
they do the same thing as many other companies including Dell and get to charge a "tax" for it?
AWESOME!

Re:I hate having to be the one to say it...

[TRRosen]

Nice of you to only buy business model Dells but most consumer models come only with recovery disks and the others come with nothing.

Re:I hate having to be the one to say it...

[Rude Turnip]

I've purchased 3 "consumer model" Dell computers (2 laptops and 1 desktop) over the years and each one came with a proper installation disk, not a recovery disk. Although they are OEM disks that are "keyed" to Dell computers, there is no activation process. So, as long as you can find a Dell model that suits your needs, you can use the OEM disks to upgrade your OS now and then.

Re:I hate having to be the one to say it...

[Blakey Rat]

How long ago is your experience?

I bought a Dell desktop, *definitely* a Home version (from the Home store... Inspiron 530 to be precise) that shipped with a physical disk containing *only* Windows Vista, and a separate disk containing the Dell drivers and applications.

As far as I can work out, the Vista disk is identical to the Microsoft-vendored one, the only difference being that the Dell logo shows up in the Computer Properties dialog. I even used it to install Vista on my HP laptop with the HP's OEM number-- worked fine!

Maybe sometime in the past, Dell did the recovery disk crap, but they certainly haven't for a few years.

Re:I hate having to be the one to say it...

[jimicus]

Last time I checked, a Time Machine backup disk wasn't bootable. Apple's own recommended solution is to reload from the OS disk and then restore from the Time Machine backup. (Can't remember if the 10.6 install process gives you an option to say "Restore from time machine" as part of the process).

Asus Do It

[Mike Mentalist]

I bought an Asus Windows 7 laptop as a present for someone the other week and ended up spending a few hours making it useable. There was a lot of Asus-branded shite that had to be removed, plus some Oberon media games, plus Trend Micro virus scan trial and then the Office 2007 trial.

Lastly I did the creation of the recovery discs and it took nearly two sodding hours or so to burn the FOUR DAMN DVDS! What the hell is on there?!?

Re:Asus Do It

[phillymjs]

Lastly I did the creation of the recovery discs and it took nearly two sodding hours or so to burn the FOUR DAMN DVDS! What the hell is on there?!?

A lot of Asus-branded shite, plus some Oberon media games, plus Trend Micro virus scan trial and then the Office 2007 trial.

thats lame

[FudRucker]

a CD that costs about 25 cents each, when i bought a new laptop with win7 earlier this year it was like that = no OEM or recovery disk, the laptop was loaded with gobs of trial software wanting me to buy full versions, so i wiped the drive and put a retail version of win7 i bought at a local brick & mortar PC store, i tried Linux on it but xorg really sucked when it came to supporting the graphics, i did manage to get it to work but the performance was terrible, i will try linux on it again in a couple of years (giving time to the xorg developers to work the bugs out of it)

"Your" an idiot

[mark72005]

fail!

(and I believe the preferred /. nomenclature is "your and idiot")

One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[Ukab the Great]

Is that Apple gives you a real bonafide OS disc with the computer you buy.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[meow27]

apple's business model revolves more on the hardware, rather than the OS

there is a reason why i can buy windows 7 pro for $170 (virtually any PC) and snow leopard for $30 (and can only be installed on intel macs)

and to reply to the topic, you can still download the iso from MS or sometimes (use the label on your machine as the key), the manufacturer.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why, part specs equivalent, you're paying an upwards of 60% markup on the machines? Tool. They can keep the disc, everybody should be using Ubuntu anyway. Now give me my damn karma, Slashdot.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[ducomputergeek]

Depends, how much is your time worth? Before I bought my dad an iMac, it was 3 - 4 hours every time I visited cleaning crap off his computer and usually 6 hours around christmas every year to wipe the drive and reinstall. So probably around 15 hours a year. Since I bought him the iMac and he got over the initial how to questions in the first weeks, I've spent a grand total of 2 hours in 3 years upgrading from OS 10.5 to 10.6 on his machine last christmas.

Not having to deal with that crap when I visit, worth every penny of the apple tax.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[Sycraft-fu]

My time is worth enough for me to want to be able to use my computer for the tasks I like. Since a large majority of the software I run does not run on MacOS, using it is not an option. I am not going to stop playing the games I like, stop using the software I like just to have a different OS.

For that matter since Windows support is my profession, I'm far more able to troubleshoot problems with it. And please, none of this "Macs never break," crap, we have Macs here too and they do break.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[fistfullast33l]

Which is great for about 6 months...until they release the next version of OS X (or maybe iOS?).

So now, for my mac mini I'd have to install Leopard from scratch, then re-install Snow Leopard over it.

Either way you cut it, re-installing the OS is a pain in the neck. On Windows, it's a once-a-year activity at the very least. On Linux and Mac, I haven't found it necessary thanks to portage on Gentoo and Mac staying pretty stable for the most part, outside of the latest forced upgrade due to the XCode release.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[jedidiah]

> Is that Apple gives you a real bonafide OS disc with the computer you buy.

No they don't.

You clueless morons need to stop repeating this nonsense.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[TRRosen]

Umm Yes they do.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[TRRosen]

Um I hate to break this to you. But that Snow leopard upgrade disk, is a a full OS install disk. There is no need to install Leopard first.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[stewbacca]

$200 sounds kind of arbitra...oh wait, you're already modded troll.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[Anonymous Coward]

Well conveniently I could afford to buy a full retail copy of Windows and STILL come out ahead money wise over buying a Mac so I guess I'm good to go.

Only if you spec a PC that doesn't have all the hardware features of the Mac you're comparing it to. This argument is as old as it is inaccurate.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[MogNuts]

A. Spend $500-1000 premium for an Apple computer to get recovery disks

or

B. Spend $20 for PC recovery disks, or *worst case scenario* spend $100 for Win7 OEM

Great logic.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[Weedhopper]

No, they're not. The discs that come with your Mac are model specific, just like all the other PC vendors.

I can't take my MBP DVDs and use them on my Mac Pro. The drivers aren't there.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[jedidiah]

A disk that is tied to a particular make model and revision of product is NOT a proper OS disk.

A proper OS disk is something that you can use on any Apple or Dell of your choosing.

A Snow Leopard disk is a proper OS package. A Mac recovery disk is not.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[MartinSchou]

15 hours a year ... sounds about right. That's 45 hours over a 3 year period. For an iMac the AppleCare Protection Plan (service and support for 3 years) is 169 US$. At 45 hours that comes down to less than 4$ an hour.

And considering that this is just for support, it's really not all that bad. Especially when you can just tell them "this is why I bought you that plan, dad. You call them, and they'll help you. Hell, they'll even come around to your house and pick up your iMac for you, if it needs to be repaired."

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[mlts]

Don't forget that the Apple Tax is completely offset by what people pay for getting a PC fixed up.

Take 3 years of operation on a $2000 Mac for a non-technical person. Other than software, it may not need a thing.

Take 3 years of operation on a generic Windows machine that costs $500. Say Windows needs to be reinstalled every six months, with infections randomly interspersed out, about twice a year. The reinstalls at the PC shop cost $100, the copy of Windows 7 costs $100 (wasn't bundled with the machine), and the cleaning of malware costs $200 each time. Total cost of machine after 3 years will be near the $2000 paid for the Mac.

For someone who knows what they are doing, this isn't an issue, but for someone non technical, a Mac may work out to be a far better bargain because they can use the machine, not have it dropped by a shop every so often.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[idontusenumbers]

That's not true. The OS install disks contain drivers for all models that came out before the disk was made. Maybe you are confusing the Restore CD for the Install CD, which the Restore CD contains a disk image which WOULD only have drivers for that model. Correct, you can't take your old disk and put it in a new machine and expect drivers to magically appear on the CD. Otherwise, the install disks work on any machine that was around when the disk was pressed.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[roman_mir]

I did better. I got my mother an Ubuntu box, set it so that it updates self and 3 years later I didn't touch it once myself.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[jschmitz]

Agreed I have ran into this with older relatives - and a Mac is a great alternative for them. Most non-technical older folks these days do everything in the browser..look at pics, email, browse the web..load Ubuntu on grannys machine put a big ass Firefox icon on the desktop..rename it "internet" and you will likely never hear from them unless there is a hardware failure ...cheers

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[Anonymous Coward]

Jumping onto this thread, I like AppleCare, just for the fact I can tell the relatives to call this number and not mine if there are any problems, or hit the local Apple store if you want some info on trying to learn/know something.

The argument I use to sell Macs is, "do you want to use the computer, or do you want it in the shop being reinstalled and your personal information combed through thoroughly by techs looking for anything illegal when the machine breaks?" Yes, it is FUD, but it foists them onto Apple and not me.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm gonna just randomly guess that, before using a Mac, your dad was using Windows and not something like Ubuntu.

Not trolling here. I had a similar experience with my mother's computer and, after installing Ubuntu, she pretty much kept doing the same things she had been doing (www, im, word processor, spreadsheet, picasa and whatnot) and I _never_ had to clean her computer of malware and trojans.

Though I like how apple fanbois feel the need to justify before others why they like buying overpriced stuff ;)

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[celery stalk]

Drivers? I don't even think the damn things will boot, let alone have the proper drivers.

The only "Universal" OSX discs are the ones you buy in a little box from the store, not the ones you get with the PC. Those are for that model and revision of Mac only.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[Weedhopper]

Yeah, don't really know, haven't tried in years simply because I know they don't work.

OTOH, I bought the multipack 10.6 disc but lost the media so I've used/been using the $29 "Upgrade" disc when I need a physical disc. Full OS, no goofing around with license keys and bullshit like that.

Re:One Of The Best Things About Being A Mac User

[TangoMargarine]

A proper OS disk is something that you can use on any Apple or Dell of your choosing.

A Snow Leopard disk is a proper OS package.

Wait, am I missing something here? Apple now lets you install OS X on J Random x86 Dell Hardware?

Conversely

[rtaylor]

They have installed a recovery disk exactly where it is needed when you have problems on the road.

Most devices are laptops. A recovery disk that is at home is of zero use to me when I'm in a hotel. How many people used to carry their recovery CDs with them everywhere they went with their laptops? How does that compare to harddisk failure in a laptop?

Better still might be to put it on a separate flash chip embedded inside the device.

Re:Conversely

[mark-t]

A recovery disk that you have to wait until you return home to access is still more valuable than none at all. The number of times one may actually *need* a recovery disk to fix a problem should hopefully be pretty small, but on the occasions when they do, its value to the person who needs it can be almost beyond measure.

CD? What's that?

[Nexus7]

Why aren't we talking about recovery USB keys? I notice many thin-n-light notebooks are shipping without CD/DVD drives.

Re:CD? What's that?

[TRRosen]

DVDs are the things I image onto a Flash drive so I can do system installs on any Intel Mac/G5 ever made with it.

Yes one disk, any mac. No bios settings just hold down the option key and pick the flash drive and your done. Oh an no serial numbers.

Don't usually need it

[Rashkae]

Just about any PC repair person should have copies of all the commonly used OEM Windows install CD's, and in most cases (especially with Vista / Windows 7) the OEM key on your sticker will work just fine to install and activate Windows. The recovery CD will potentially save you 1 - 2 hours tracking down drivers, but you might spend nearly as long de-crapifying the OEM adware. I prefer to create my own backup partition and use ntfsclone to backup up the system once it is tuned to my liking and all additional software has been installed and activated. Still requires to re-do all the work in case of hard drive failure, but those are, fortunately, a rare condition I need to recover from.

Re:Don't usually need it

[jimicus]

Don't know if you've noticed this lately, but the OEM-sticker is getting cheaper and nastier as years go by - recent versions aren't laminated, they're plain paper sticky on two edges, with a hole torn - not cut - in the middle.

This is only anecdotal, so take it with as much salt as you think it needs - but I tried getting a replacement OEM install key for a damaged label on a Dell server. It was absolutely impossible - Microsoft won't help, Dell don't log the key the system ships with when it goes out and wouldn't let me have a new one. Even though they know full well it shipped with an OEM copy of Windows.

Despite having a perfectly legitimate license (there was only slight damage to the sticker, but enough to make it unreadable), I was left with one choice: buy a new license at full retail price. It seems that this cheap nasty little sticker has an effective value of something like £500 (which IIRC was the full retail price of Windows Server).

Not only that, but

[davebarnes]

The discs are not "recovery discs", but full blown copies of the operating system.

Worth the tax to me.

Re:Not only that, but

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean they provide operating system install discs with the purchase of your operating system? Amazing. What will they think of next?!

Re:Not only that, but

[Gilmoure]

And for some reason, they put their full suite of development tools on there as an optional install?

Are they nuts?

Re:Not only that, but

[jedidiah]

> The discs are not "recovery discs", but full blown copies of the operating system.
>
> Worth the tax to me.

No they aren't. They are married to the particular model of Apple they came with. They're no more useful than a Sony recovery disk.

Re:Not only that, but

[Anonymous Coward]

that wont run on any other machine, so you paid for something you cant use except for what apple tells you

Re:Not only that, but

[MartinSchou]

That certainly depends on what the Sony recovery disk includes.

The OS X install DVD only installs OS X and it's base applications. There are no bundled 3rd party fluff applications etc. Only 3rd party stuff on it is drivers.

True, it is married to that particular model (i.e. the disk for a late 2009 MacBook Pro 15" is unlikely to work with a late 2008 MacBook Pro 15"), but at least you can use the bundled DVDs to get a completely clean install (including drivers though).

That being said, the full retail version of OS X 10.6 is cheap compared to Windows 7. 29 US$ (49 for 5 licences) vs 199 US$ for a single user license for Windows 7 Home Premium

Re:Not only that, but

[Anonymous Coward]

No they aren't. They are married to the particular model of Apple they came with. They're no more useful than a Sony recovery disk.

They may only function on a particular model (I haven't needed to try, myself), but you can do as much customization of your OS as you can with the regular installer disks, and some basic troubleshooting. There is also no crap.

Re:Not only that, but

[mlts]

Don't forget that a retail edition of OS X 10.6 just installs. No CD-keys. No activation. No "genuine advantage". No sudden black screens or notices that the OS may not be genuine. OS X installs, prompts for a username and then to register. OS X Server is a bit tougher, as it asks for a serial number and periodically checks for the same serial on the network, but it doesn't need to repeatedly phone home to keep its "genuine" status.

Why can't Microsoft operating systems do this? The losses they may get to "piracy" will be completely offset by more people keeping with Windows and not jumping ship because they are tired of the CD key BS.

Re:Not only that, but

[spiderbitendeath]

Not all come with discs for a single model computer. Many of the iMacs I've worked with do. However, my old PowerMac G3 came with an actual normal OS Install disc, as did my girlfriend's Macbook Pro.

Re:Not only that, but

[Anonymous Coward]

stockholm syndrome?

It's all about the cheddar

[gregor-e]

When you make a backup, you're also enshrining all the crapware the computer comes with. This guarantees that should the drive fail, your crapware shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life. That's probably worth an extra $10 to the manufacturer, so there's no way they're going to bear the cost of a disc plus lose the extra $10 they can get from the crapware-advertisers.

Re:It's all about the cheddar

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are running Win 7 you can create your own backup set. I just did on my new laptop. Paul Thurrott has a great writeup.

http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/totw/repair.asp

Re:It's all about the cheddar

[misexistentialist]

Why don't they offer an addon along with the extended warranty and other accessories to have them ship you a clean machine with an OS disk? That would be worth $20. Of course they also won't sell you a machine without an OS. Which makes it seem like Microsoft is still using its monopoly powers to control the entire industry to its advantage at the expense of consumers. Maybe in 20 years they will be fined a few percent of one quarter's profit.

I think this is miscategorized

[starslab]

Being unable to install all the vendor's crap and their uniquely gimped version of Windows....

That's not a bug, it's a feature!

I've got install media for all recent client versions of Windows - straight, not-more-fucked-up-than-Microsoft-makes-it media that will accept the valid serial keys attached to the chassis of any mass-produced machine... Now if the sticker has faded off or been removed that's a different story...

Re:I think this is miscategorized

[novium]

That sticker thing is really, really damn annoying. On my older computers, they were damn durable. But now I'm stuck using the damn recovery disks (which have the added bonus of automatically splitting my hard drive into *five* stupid partitions) because the sticker they're putting at the bottom of the laptops are some uberly flimsy paper, and it all completely was worn away after a month or so. I say worn away just for a lack of a better word- the sticker is still there, but it looks like the bottom half of a carbon copy that's been beat to hell.

Well two things

[Sycraft-fu]

1) You can remove the partition easy enough.

2) Are you hurting for disk space on a new system? Hell I just bought a laptop a couple months ago and it has 500GB of disk space in it. A *laptop* has that much. Desktops are no problem to get with 1TB or more. Are you really going to miss 10-20GB of that?

I mean I reinstalled my laptop with Win 7 Pro, instead of the included Home version, but I left the recovery partition. Why not? It isn't a problem or anything.

Re:Well two things

[Ephemeriis]

1) You can remove the partition easy enough.

Yes, you can. Too easily, in fact.

Sure, if you have Windows (or whatever your favorite OS is) install media then you probably don't care about this recovery partition. It's a good way to get a little extra space on the disk.

But if you don't have install media and you remove the partition? Now you're screwed.

I mean I reinstalled my laptop with Win 7 Pro, instead of the included Home version, but I left the recovery partition. Why not? It isn't a problem or anything.

The problem I have with a recovery partition isn't the space it takes up... It's the fact that it lives on my HDD.

If I get a nasty virus that starts eating my PC, it can get at that recovery partition. If my HDD fails, that recovery partition is gone. If I upgrade my HDD, I've got no media to use to install Windows on that new disk.

A recovery partition is entirely too vulnerable. I much prefer a physical disc.

Re:Well two things

[mlts]

Very true. However, for us who run FDE programs [1], the recovery partition may or may not be usable, so the best option is to dd it off to multiple pieces of media for safekeeping. The UNIX dd command writes and reads it perfectly, but having Acronis or Maxtor's MaxBlast copy it means that it can be easily restored to another hard disk.

[1]: I always have TrueCrypt on my Windows machines. This turns a computer theft into "just" a loss of hardware, not hardware+data. Since I keep good backups (external HDD, backup server hidden, but connected via wireless, and Mozy), I'm more worried about someone getting access for extortion or blackmail reasons than recovering what is on the machine's HDDs.

Re:Well two things

[Theoboley]

Yes, thats 10-20 GB worth of Pr0nz that cannot/will not be watched.

Why do you need one?

[Anonymous Coward]

I always recommend downloading a clean iso of the OS and formatting all the crap that comes by default nowadays.
You get a clean OS recovery DVD too, so no need to remove all the trial versions when you do have to restore.
It's easy enough to activate the retail edition of Windows of the using the OEM licence by just making a simple phone call, so I don't see what the problem is.

Doing something wrong?

[fnj]

Huh, a music CD is a sequence of digitally encoded sectors, one after the other, with error detection and correction. Ripping it to disk files, computer performance should be TOTALLY IRRELEVANT on the face of it. Maybe if you used a half decent ripping tool ... CDDA Paranoia . Of course, that tool only runs on a real operating system ... linux.

Re:Doing something wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh, a music CD is a sequence of digitally encoded sectors, one after the other, with error detection and correction. Ripping it to disk files, computer performance should be TOTALLY IRRELEVANT on the face of it.

Actually, it's doing a fair amount of math to transcode from CD format into MP3. You're also beholden to the underlying IO system and how much it can keep up with you in terms of buffering and the like. Also, Windows 7 has a crap load of annoying extra services running on it that need to be tuned down (like the indexer) that chew CPU time.

Maybe if you used a half decent ripping tool ... CDDA Paranoia [xiph.org] . Of course, that tool only runs on a real operating system ... linux.

See, now you're just being an asshole. My wife has no interest in running Linux. I've got Linux, FreeBSD, XP, and Vista boxes, but she doesn't care. I'm certainly not going to start picking fights with her to tell her how much cooler another goddamn OS is. Maybe if you had a wife, you might understand that point.

It really is assholes like you that give the rest of OSS people a bad name. Yeah, we get it, linux is teh r0ck3rs. Blah, blah, blah.

Seriously, shut your pie hole and stop being such an arrogant, smarmy git. Not everybody gives a shit about Linux, and being a mindless drooling fanboi doesn't help anything. Windows and other OSes have their places as well. Cope.

God, sometimes I really hate listening to people who just mindlessly repeat the notion that Windows sucks and that all of the l337 people are using Linux. Go eat your crayons or something if you have nothing intelligent to contribute to the topic.

Re:Doing something wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fortunately there are also plenty of good Windows tools for those of us who aren't elitist snobs.

Re:Doing something wrong?

[greed]

Not only are there Windows tools (some of which even use the CDDA Paranoia library), but even iTunes should have a setting to do the same thing; the OS X version does, and it'd be a dumb thing to leave out. It'll have a warning about slowing down ripping; but who cares how quickly you can get a bad rip?

Re:Doing something wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exact Audio Copy is free and works just fine on Windows.

Exact Audio website: http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

Re:Doing something wrong?

[heathen_01]

Its too bad that your real operating system does not yet completely support copy and paste.

Re:Doing something wrong?

[rickb928]

"Of course, that tool only runs on a real operating system ... linux."

More helpful advice from the Linux community.

You could also advise the poster to try LAME, which runs fine on Linux and Windows, and rips fine too. But you wouldn't know about that, would you?

Re:Doing something wrong?

[jedidiah]

Well, when you manage to have trouble with the sorts of things that you could do on Linux on a 486 you should expect to catch some hell over it.

Just be a man and suck it up and not be a whining crybaby.

MP3 is TRIVIAL.

If Windows 7 can't cope, it's time to defect to something better.

People like you putting up with obvious crap is how obvious crap continues to linger on and have an unnatural influence on the marketplace.

Re:Doing something wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

"See, now you're just being an asshole. My wife has no interest in running Linux. I've got Linux, FreeBSD, XP, and Vista boxes, but she doesn't care. I'm certainly not going to start picking fights with her to tell her how much cooler another goddamn OS is. Maybe if you had a wife, you might understand that point.

It really is assholes like you that give the rest of OSS people a bad name. Yeah, we get it, linux is teh r0ck3rs. Blah, blah, blah."

hahahaha, well said. i wish i could be bothered logging into slashdot anymore and had any mod points because i'd push you up through the roof. there really are too many asshats in love with the feeling of superiority that using linux can, bizarrely, give them.

Re:Doing something wrong?

[spire3661]

Ripping CD to file is still a PHYSICAL process. That physical process can produce errors.

Re:Doing something wrong?

[Combatso]

posts like this is the only reason I keep coming back to Slashdot... So true, keep it up

Re:Doing something wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you, dickwad.

Re:Doing something wrong?

[fnj]

You're right. The guy is an a LOSER. He writes like a loser, he uses a loser's operating system, and he doesn't know shit technically. He symbolizes the problem perfectly.

Re:Doing something wrong?

[fnj]

You are a real intellectual marvel, Coward. You understand nothing, and you contribute nothing.

Actual cost savings?

[jonhorvath]

I truly don't understand the cost savings by not including a recovery DVD. Here is a rough estimate on costs associated with each option.

* Include DVD recovery disc - 10 cents per disc

* Customer calls in to have recovery DVD shipped - 5 dollars per disc (includes support call, shipping and handling)

The computer company is counting at least 1 in 50 people will not call their support line to recover their PC. Knowing the typical home user, this is an extremely high ratio. I suspect that the actual ratio would actually be 1 in 5 or lower. The combination of MS Windows and a home user would usually lead to an unstable OS within a year.

Re:Actual cost savings?

[Technician]

MS is ignoring the guys like me. I recover the docs folder if the drive is readable, and offer to install Ubuntu, which I used to recover the data.

These guys are making the switch to Ubuntu easier than jumping through hoops to recover the machine with full loss of data.

Is the OS a product or a license?

[pbrooks100]

If a physical disk is not shipped with the product, does this help M$ support the claim that you are purchasing a license to use rather than a product?

While production costs are certainly lower, this may have more to do with changing the marketplace than saving costs. Who benefits the most from the absence of physical media and manuals?

Haven't experienced this problem

[palme999]

My experience has been the opposite of this story summary. Have a 2 year old Dell (warranty expired) that needed Windows (XP Media Center) reloaded on it. Two weeks ago I look for the CDs and couldn't find them, realized they never came with the system. Googled around to this page[1] and ordered the recovery disks. Free of charge. Arrived 2 days later.

At least for Dell this appears to be a non-story.

[1]http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/dellcare/en/backupcd_form?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&redirect=1

iTunes Plus

[tepples]

It doesn't help consumers who are already the victims of vendor lock-in, such as those with a large purchased iTunes music collection.

Was this large iTunes music collection purchased before or after Apple's transition to DRM-free iTunes Plus, which took place between mid-2007 and the end of 2008?

Re:iTunes Plus

[jedidiah]

Well, there's a good chance of that actually.

Most of my own MP3 collection predates the iPod entirely.

OTOH, there are plenty of other things in the iTunes store to ensnare the customer.

This is 2010. Why are people still just fixating on music?

Even worse

[MBGMorden]

Even worse, diligence isn't always sufficient. I've tried half a dozen times to burn the recovery disks from my Lenovo laptop. It always has an error during the process and doesn't finish. Out of fear of not being able to get the original OS back on when I wanted to try Linux on that laptop (I use Ubuntu as my desktop OS) I literally pulled out the factory hard drive and put in a new hard drive to run Linux on, as if the factory drive was wiped I had no good path back to the original setup.

I wouldn't even CARE if they provided the recovery disks on the drive to burn if they just put them in ISO form so that I could burn them using the program and system of my choice. As it is if their proprietary utility doesn't work you're SOL.

Re:Even worse

[drinkypoo]

I wouldn't even CARE if they provided the recovery disks on the drive to burn if they just put them in ISO form so that I could burn them using the program and system of my choice. As it is if their proprietary utility doesn't work you're SOL.

I made recovery disks for a gateway LT3201u and then tried to use them and found that they were bad. At least verify the fucking things if you're going to tell me that the burn succeeded.

Uhm, Vista/Win 7 are easy to reinstall

[Anonymous Coward]

OEM certificates are easy to find, OEM SLP keys are easy to find. Your machine has the license and the BIOS markings.

Import key & cert = activated Windows Vista / 7 OEM install. slmgr.vbs ftw.

No need for recovery disc. Also .isos are freely available from Microsoft servers. Google it.

Re:Download one

[commodore64_love]

That's but there are a few flaws with your idea:

- My ISP web accelerator software doesn't work on Linux (although I could substitute Opera Turbo for almost-as-fast performance).
- My Atari and NES emulators only play half as many games as the Windows versions of these emulators
- I can't make Flash work on Ubuntu, even though I've tried numerous times. It keeps saying something about, "Not enough permission."
- iTunes doesn't work
- MS Office doesn't work
- Windows Media Encoder doesn't work
- 2xAV (double speed) Player doesn't work
- And on and on and on.

Using Linux is liking taking a step back to the days of running my Commodore Amiga. I loved that machine but it was hard to find any software to support what I wanted to do (and therefore I moved to Windows 98).

how many actually want them?

[shadowrat]

How many people here actually use these disks? Don't we all just wipe our new computer of shovelware and install Linux or something? In my experience, i've always thrown away the disks that came with a retail computer. They don't ever restore to the system i wanted. My first dell came with a vanilla win 95 disk that just installed the OS. It wasn't even tied to any kind of hardware identifier. I could install it on my new system, and the system after that (always only one at a time though :))

When recovery disks became tied to computers and installed more than just the OS, i stopped wanting them anyway.

They might be nice for some users, but i kind of think most people don't even know what they do and just take the computer to best buy, etc. The other end of the spectrum are power users who want to install the os and partitions their own way. In the middle are people savvy enough to run the disk, but i really think that's the minority of users.

Spend Money to Save Money

[iCharles]

I'm working with a SOHO on a workstation refresh. The brand new Lenovo workstations don't come with OS disks (only the burn-your-own recovery disk option). So, we either have to buy Win7 OS media (which, in my mind, makes licensing tricky), or accept the OS load as is, and try to surgically remove anything bloaty. Either way, no good option when you are only talking about half-a-dozen workstations.

We're trying to de-bloat.

I contrast this with big companies I work for/with. With hundreds or thousands of seats, they have the critical mass to justify an Enterprise Licenses with Microsoft that means they get what they need. Buy a hundred workstations, and blast down a clean, standard image. As an added perk, they don't have to troubleshoot too deep, just re-blast.

What model?

[gaspyy]

What model was the laptop?
We usually buy the Compaq line from HP and that comes with physical media. The last laptop from them came with with 3 discs: Windows Vista, Windows XP downgrade and Drivers. That was last year.

Usually, I found real difference between their 'home' laptops and their 'business' ones.

That's the way they want it..

[Carpathius]

"by the time he'd paid £50 for the recovery disc, paid for a new hard drive and paid for the labour of installing the device, it made more sense to buy a new machine."

I think the key words there are "it made more sense to buy a new machine". Doesn't surprise me. And isn't that what the manufacturers want? Buy that new machine, spend just a little more money, and feel like you've gotten something better when in all likelyhood, you really haven't.

Both?

[tiksi]

AFAIK dell hasnt been shipping a disc since at least 2005. I was actually quite surprised when my lenovo laptop came with a disc last year and also had a recovery partition. Paid no extra, didn't ask for it, and it probably cost an extra $0.05 to lenovo to press the disc. I have no problem paying the premium for them to press the disc if it is included in the product price.

I can blame them

[nefus]

In an industry where one is expected to lower your retails costs by 25% every year simply to stay competitive, I can't say I blame them.

When your client's business is losing money because there is no immediate recovery option, its just stupid. Hard drives sometimes die or become corrupt and that recovery partition is useless at that point. Sure if you had the option to ghost their drive then you can recovery everything. But not everyone wants to pay for storage of starting-state backups when they believe they have a recovery on the drive. It sounds silly to them at the time.

Re:I can blame them

[JustinRLynn]

If your client's business is so dependent on a single machine being up all the time, then your client is doing it wrong. I'm in operations and I carry around a spare laptop and three 3G GSM/CDMA dongles because I /must/ have the ability to get on and fix things wherever I am. Machines fail, parts fail.. everything fails. If it's business critical and you don't have a backup, then you need to get one, now.

Re:I can blame them

[nefus]

Most of my clients are small medical offices. Sure there is more than one system in the office but it's being used by somebody doing a job. They typically don't have the space for extra workstations to sit in a corner. If the system is down, the patient records can't be pulled up and maybe somebody gets the wrong medicines and dies.

Re:I can blame them

[tresho]

Hard drives sometimes die or become corrupt and that recovery partition is useless at that point. Better to say they reliably die or become corrupt, and usually at a most inopportune moment. I've owned several dozen laptops & desktops over the last 25 years, and hard drive failure or corruption has been my most frequently occurring problem.

Re:I can blame them

[tresho]

If the system is down, the patient records can't be pulled up and maybe somebody gets the wrong medicines and dies. All the more reason to have adequate on-site and off-site backup of some kind. You don't need multiple workstations for that.

Easy steps to a non-crappy PC

[xgr3gx]

Step 1: Buy (or build, for those inclined) a machine with no OS installed.
Step 2: Buy or download the OS of your choosing that can run on hardware from step 1.
Step 3: Install OS from Step 2.
Step 4: Enjoy your new PC, without vendor crap ware, and a full copy of the OS disk your are entitled to that can be used to rebuild the box if something goes awry.

I think most average computer users can probably install Windows 7. If they are able to install all the free "toolbars" and crap that junk up their machines in the first place, the default install of Win7 is probably with in their abilities. There are few options to choose and it walks you through pretty easily.
I think Ubuntu is actually fewer steps than Windows to install. Can't speak for Apple.

Not being given a copy of this OS is just wrong in my opinion. Oh well, my $0.02

No problem

[Anonymous Coward]

But then you have to be more diligent in choosing hardware for your PC.

Fortunately, that is pretty easy. Sure, using modern OSes has a cost, but the cost is so heavily outweighed by all the advantages, that it's pretty safe to tell everyone, "If you're paying for operating systems, you're 'doing computers' wrong."

not all manufacturers / product lines

[juanhf]

as this may be the case for consumer level notebooks this is not true specifically for hp business class notebooks (to this day we receive a kit with windows xp professional downgrade as well as the media for the currently shipping operating system - in this case windows 7 professional).

usually giving the support department a call we can come out triumphant by having a factory burned media kit shipped to us free of charge (we usually explain to the support rep that other vendors do it and that we believe _fill in the blank_ should too)

here is a quick tally of our results:
- hp business notebooks include the media in the box nearly all the time
- dell is good about shipping media for the operating system that was purchased (unless you paid for the downgrade right option dont bother asking for xp media)
- apple we found would also ship media
- fujitsu will also provide media but is a little hesitant, you have to talk them into it and even threaten to return the notebook
- lenovo won't provide media at all

some background on our lenovo experience:
we bought two lenovo notebooks (through the channel / not directly from the company). the notebooks were a x200-tablet for $1800 and a w510 notebook. the x200 came with both w7p and xpp as it advertised that downgrade rights were included (since when was this the choice of the manufacturer anyway?). the other notebook the w510 which was much did not come with any media whatsoever.

given the cost of producing media all manufacturers should include media...

Re:HP Does this ... back in 1995

[deburg]

Blast from the past! Does anyone remember the days from the 90s when HP used to bundle the floppy disk images in c:\masters?

Recovery Discs are full of bloatware anyway

[e065c8515d206cb0e190]

Who wants the Norton 90 day trial or the Lame Backup v3?

I know that not everyone is a power user, but I'd much rather install a bare version of my favorite OS and then build on it.

A setup that works great for me at the moment:
Debian stable (bare minimum) + kvm/qemu.
About a dozen virtual machines (Linux, XP, etc) on top of that for my daily activities.

This isn't news.

[Urza9814]

Compaq has been doing this since '98 at least. They'd install the recovery data to a separate partition, then charge $20 for a disc that simply boots that partition.

Cheaper

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps the better model would be a much cheaper os(like $5) but something that costs $1 everytime you install?

Oh no...

Thumb Drives

[CFBMoo1]

Be nice if they made the recovery software on a thumb drive instead of a DVD/CD. Be a futuristic throw back to the floppy disk days where you could format a recovery floppy on the fly almost for Windows. Hell even Linux is doing it already.

Re:Thumb Drives

[couchslug]

You can do this yourself.
WinPE/BartPE will run from a thumb drive, for example.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=windows+7+install+from+thumb+drive

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc709665(WS.10).aspx

There are also many complete bootable media images (liveCD/DVD and USB) with recovery and other progs available via the pyrate sytes that you can copy for examples.

Complain to state AG

[aztektum]

I bought a Lenovo Thinkpad a while back and it came with no disks. I was use to Dells we buy at work which still come with it a CD, so I was surprised this did not.

I contacted them and they were like "Sorry! You are SOL!"

I sent an e-mail to my state AG pointing out that I paid for the software but have no way to reinstall it should something happen. Also I bought the thing with a particular size hard drive and ended up having this restore partition which used up my space. It was a lame deal.

Got a reply from a Lenovo rep a few days later and they sent me a regular retail disk of Windows Vista. Yeah I know, Vista, but that's what they were selling at the time.

OEM is apparently not OEM

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep in mind that, if you try and reinstall windows on a brand-name computer from an OEM or retail disk, the major manufacturers have special deals with microsoft and get what are basically hacked versions of windows and the windows product key they supplied will NOT work.

The manufacturer disks don't ask for the product key at all.

Bingo!

[Caviller]

"One customer recently found his hard drive had gone, but by the time he'd paid £50 for the recovery disc, paid for a new hard drive and paid for the labour of installing the device, it made more sense to buy a new machine.""

And that about sums up why the discs are going by by. Why recover when you can buy new!!

Missing the point

[Joce640k]

The point is they can charge you $5 extra when you order the machine or $50 later if it fails.

Also ... if 50 pounds + extras is as much as buying a new machine then the 50 pounds isn't the problem, it's the extras.

Moral: Make a backup then reclaim the recovery partition for something useful.

Re:Missing the point

[cjdavis618]

Exactly, you nailed it. It makes the companies more money if they restrict the Serials and the OS to specific models for the disks that include the drivers. Etc. On the other hand, it also makes more money for me in my business as the person that gets to source the new drive and then re-install the software. The comments about the links in bios, etc for being able to get the ISO image and reload. There could be some use in that but on the networking side, there would be limitations. Sounds like a good way to start up a new company.. I'm sure that many of the major manufactureres would add this, but I would also think they would still charge for the "Extended download service"

Recovery Partitions

[ubersoldat2k7]

So that's what the 5GB partition I always remove is for. What a waste of time I say. If you're buying a computer with Windows pre-installed, you can be sure that since the very moment you pay for it, you're being Butt-F*#$*%. At least this partition is always good for SWAP.

Anyway, it's a shame that no discs are shipped with computers anymore, since Windows discs are so nice and they make incredible mirrors to shave during shower... And yes, I'm currently shaving with a Windows XP CD that came with my laptop and have another Office 2007 in case this one gets lost. OTOH I collect Ubuntu CD's.

It gets worse

[D. Book]

I recently bought an ASUS netbook which not only came with no recovery discs, but no utility to create recovery media (either optical or USB). If the hard disk dies or the recovery partition is corrupted (e.g. by a failed test restore of your self-created drive image), there's no way to restore the system to its factory state yourself. This has been raised in the ASUS forums and their response is sorry, but you have to return the system to them if you need it restored. Remarkably, people who noted this issue in Amazon.com reviews had their criticism thumbed-down, and ridiculed by "most helpful" reviews containing the narrowminded suggestion that recovery media is unecessary because you can "simply restore from the hard disk!".

Re:It gets worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here, my Acer laptop's HDD was DOA out of the box. Rather than shipping it back to Newegg or Acer I called Acer and they shipped me a new HDD after some escalating (can I talk to your supervisor?). HDD came blank, and they refused to sell me the recover disk. Only way to get an OS on it was to ship it back to them. It told them no thanks and put my MSDNAA copy of 7 Pro on there after downloading all the drivers from Acer's website.
I do have to admit, of all manufacture's websites I have had to deal with, Acer's was the likely the easierst to get drivers from once you find out exactly which model you have (actual model number is different than the sticker on the box or top of the laptop, its in very small print on the bottom of the notebook).

Re:It gets worse

[couchslug]

Good. More reason for users to dump them...to self or other geeks.

I collect OS discs and recovery media from DOS 6.22 up, as should every scrounger of used hardware.

Re:It gets worse

[jd2112]

Must have been the guy from one vendor I had to deal with once from a department who bought a server without going through IT. When I pointed out that the server has only one disk drive installed and we would be unable to recover it should the drive fail his response was "We have a 4-hour replacement contract with HP, if the drive fails you'll get a replacement in a few hours." He didn't have an answer when I asked him if the replacement drive would have the OS and applications installed and pre-configured for us, and if so how did HP manage to get a copy of our server build.

Re:It gets worse

[jpeter20]

I recommend, not only for netbooks, but for any system, making a backup of the entire hard drive using Clonezilla. I've backed up friends' and family members' hard drives to my external hard drive in case of catastrophe. An added benefit of this method is that you can clean all the crapware off of Windows first, download any system updates, then make your backup, so if and when you need to restore, you have a fresh, fast(er) copy of Windows installed.

Re:It gets worse

[randyleepublic]

Asus has gone down the toilet. I buy Supermicro for servers and Supermicro or Gigabyte for workstations. Bye Asus.

Easy enough to reinstall Windows yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently bought an HP laptop with that didn't come with a recovery disk. I wanted to install an SSD. I also didn't want the extra crap they installed anyways.

I just torrented a Window 7 Home Premium x64 OEM disk (the same version that came factory installed), burned it, installed it, and activated it (via Microsoft's automated phone system).

Yeah, having to "illegally" download something and jump through these hoops to reinstall something I have a license for is silly, but I'm not losing sleep over it...

The manufacturer doesn't own the software

[zigfreed]

Microsoft is the owner of the software. They would be the ones that would require OEMs to ship an install disc with their license. Where this probably eats into the bottom line is when the crapware companies require their installers on the disc as well; creating unique install discs for each system.

At least now...

[Anonymous Coward]

...with Windows 7 and Vista you only need one install disc for each and the product key is the differentiator of what works, right? I haven't had to personally rebuild any failed XP or Vista machines for clients yet to know for sure.

XP, on the other hand, always drove me fucking NUTS because I'd have to carry so many different flavors of install discs to make sure I'd have the correct one to rebuild a system... VLK, retail, OEM... it was madness! Because even if they had received reinstall discs or burned them, by the time the machine failed the client would have no idea where they were.

Office 2003 had the same installer idiocy going-- so many different flavors named so confusingly similarly I'd frequently have to just keep trying install discs until one accepted the client's goddamn product key.

What fucking morons at Microsoft thought it was a good idea to do that?

Probably driven by the retailers

[glebovitz]

My brother bought a laptop from Best Buy that didn't include a recovery disk. Best Buy was more than happy to reload the image for $150. Fortunately, the manufacturer was willing to send a recovery CD upon request.
.

Look out for gotchas...

[Anonymous Coward]

There are some notable gotchas here:

1. Recovery CD is included, but device lacks an optical drive (netbook). The usual answer is to substitute a USB flash drive instead. These are more expensive than mass produced optical drives and I've never seen one included with hardware I've purchased.

2. "Recovery CD" is included, but it is not really a recovery CD. It is a simple Windows setup CD. Once booted, you will need a method for getting all drivers installed. Watch out for a common catch-22: you need the drivers to get the drivers.

3. Recovery CD is included and is a real recovery CD, but it reinstalls all "crapware" that came with your computer and you had patiently scraped off.

4. Recovery CD is included but you don't have a backup. "Recovery" will overwrite all user data. Ouch.

Avoid all of the above by making scheduled backups. Personally, I use GNU/Linux to backup/restore Windows. There are multiple tricks for doing this (dual booting, or using a live rescue CD or USB key.) It's nice that the NTFS filesystem is now available read-write thanks to ntfs-3g. That makes life much easier. The tool I use to create snapshot backups is ntfsclone. This makes rollbacks to a known good state very easy; it's the way to go, especially if you're tired of starting over as several of the listed item above imply.

Beware of your HDD size when recovering!

[jbarr]

I replaced a 320GB HDD on my new HP Pavilion laptop with a smaller but faster 128GB SSD drive. Since the factory install used only about 30GB of space, I figured that I could just do a simple recovery using the recovery discs that I burned after the original install.

Wasn't gonna happen.

The recovery processed failed stating that the disk I was installing to was smaller than the one installed at the factory, so it could not continue. I ended up just shrinking the partition on the HDD and then cloned that image to the SSD, and ended up with what I needed, but it was NOT for the faint of heart.

HP's response was basically, "Sorry, we don't support that."

Re:Beware of your HDD size when recovering!

[amorsen]

Yes, HP is the worst out there when it comes to recovery disks. My 6730b had no option for burning recovery disks at all. Strangely enough it came with fairly pristine Windows XP install disks...

Not that it matters all that much, I boot Windows XP every month to get the security updates and every 3 months to run some random proprietary software which doesn't work in Wine.

I dont see the problem

[tom229]

This is moot. If you dont have the knowledge to repair yourself you send it to a professional. Any real professional has OPK copies of your OS and can re-install using the licence key sticker on the case. People that get the recovery disc sent with their PC lose it/throw it out anyways. I dont even ask them if they have it... its a waste of my time. One thing I would, however, like to see PC manufacturers do is affix product keys for ALL licenced software somewhere on the case; most specifically if they've purchased a licenced copy of MS Office with their new PC.

Re:Hard disk failure? Unlikely...

[LWATCDR]

So the answer everybody is over looking is don't buy it if it doesn't come with an install CD. ...
Seriously if you shop for the cheapest you will get the cheapest. The companies really are giving you what you want and are willing to pay for.
Think of it this way. The average person when looking for a PC if they see two identical machines but one is $10 then the other because it includes a recovery CD will buy the $10 cheaper machine.
I am adding $10 because it takes time to burn, test, pack, and replace bad CDs under warranty so you need to charge more then $1 or so that a black CD will cost.
frankly if you buy a machine and it lets you burn a recovery CD that should be the first thing you do.
Other options for the slashdot crowd are.
http://www.clonezilla.org/
and
http://www.partimage.org/Main_Page
Hey make your own back ups folks and you will not have this problem.

Re:HP Does this ... back in 1995

[Dynetrekk]

I was going to say almost exactly the same. I bought an HP desktop in 2003 (bad choice, but I've learned). It had this exact setup: burn your recovery disk once. Thankfully, I was clever enough to do so. For this, and many other, reasons, I am never buying a HP (whatever-product) again. Either I'll get a perfectly priced Linux distro, or stick to macs - they all come with bootable OS disks with hard drive tools and what have you not.

Windows XP vs. Windows 7 HCLs

[tepples]

The "Windows Compatibility List" is pretty much every piece of hardware everywhere. Vendors would be absolutely stupid to *not* include a Windows driver, since Windows users are something like 85 percent of the market.

To be fair, the Windows XP HCL and the Windows 7 HCL are completely different beasts. A lot of hardware makers haven't updated their Windows XP drivers to work on Windows Vista or on Windows 7, which uses the same drivers as Windows Vista. Conspiracy theorists on Slashdot have suggested that this might be a way to get customers to re-buy hardware when switching from Windows XP to Windows 7.

Let's just name names here...

[CmdrPorno]

Dell is doing this on their newest notebooks. You can get a free restore DVD if you jump through some byzantine menus on their website. We recently ordered two identical Inspirons (separate orders) and I tried to get restore media for both of them (listing the appropriate order numbers on the web form). Dell still treated it like a duplicate order until I pointed out that we had indeed bought two notebooks and wanted restore media for both. Fucking ghetto.

If memory serves, eMachines netbooks also don't come with a restore DVD, and there is of course no DVD burner included so that you can burn your own. Now, most people might be able to scrounge up an external DVD drive if they needed to use a restore DVD, but nobody is going to procure one just to burn a backup that should have been provided with the computer to begin with.

Oh, I bought an inexpensive Compaq (with no CD burner) back in the early 2000s, and it included no restore CDs, but did include software to burn restore CDs if you decided to plunk down $100 for a CD burner and buy $10 worth of media.

I appreciate the good things that come with inexpensive electronics, but I detest this race to the bottom. The more I think about it, the more I respect Apple for not competing in the low end of the market and generally trying to take care of their customers (part of which is providing restore DVDs with every machine).

Correct me if I'm wrong

[TheMadScot]

Is such a practice not in violation of state, regional or country laws - or perhaps even the software EULA - when it comes to OS as supplied with hardware?

Whoosh

[Joce640k]

You're completely and utterly missing the point. The point is that they're charge $5 extra for one (or $50 if you don't include it with the initial purchase of the machine).

All those $5 CDs add up to a lot of money...

Does microsoft have an official position on this?

[mark-t]

What's their position on manufacturers not providing the original disks on computers with their software installed on it?

Here's why...

[Anonymous Coward]

> "... by the time he'd paid £50 for the recovery disc, paid for a new hard drive and paid for the labour of installing the device, it made more sense to buy a new machine."

It's in the interest of the hardware industry to make repairing a broken machine as difficult as possible in order to keep the hardware (and by extension, the [Windows] software) churn going.

Capital letters

[tepples]

Drivers for Windows on CDs bundled with PC peripherals don't necessarily extend the operating system's Hardware Compatibility List (all capitals), which includes the list of hardware for which Microsoft has tested the driver. But they do extend its hardware compatibility list (lower case), which also includes the list of hardware for which the manufacturer has tested the driver.

Re:Capital letters

[Pop69]

My most sincere apologies good sir !

Had I realised that you were randomly redefining terms to advance your own point of view I wouldn't have wasted my time replying to you.

That's 2 minutes of my life wasted that I'll never get back.

It promotes linux

[flerchin]

Honestly, this is why I first installed Ubuntu on my old IBM laptop. As the windows installs went down, the linux installs went up. Linux spread through my whole family this way; First me and my wife, then my brothers, then my mother-in-law.

Re:Download one

[jedidiah]

> - I can't make Flash work on Ubuntu, even though I've tried numerous times. It keeps saying something about, "Not enough permission."

Then you aren't really trying. You aren't actually sincerely trying to make it work. You're just trying to make it fail. You just want something to whine about. You're just a troll.

It doesn't get any easier than a vendor repository managed package.

Roll Your Own

[Anonymous Coward]

I make my own recovery disks for any new PC I purchase. It comes from www.ubuntu.com, and contains 99.9% of all the drivers I will ever need.

I choose my hardware carefully, and have never run into any real incompatibilities.

It costs slightly more than the cheap plastic crap from HP/Dell/Acer or whatever crap manufacturer is out there.

The bonus is, I get no bloatware, crapware, trialware, spyware, etc.

A long time ago, I purchased a WinXP home OEM disc. That is used for vmware/virtualbox emulation for tricky stuff that want's XP.

So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Walmart sells a 4 gig USB flash drive for 12.00. All a user needs to do is buy one and download WintoFlash. WintoFlash will ask where the windows installation files are (the partition) and move them to the USB flash drive AND make the drive bootable. I have a Windows XP flash drive installer AND a Windows 7 installer. CDs and DVDs are eventually going to become extinct with flash drives becoming cheaper and cheaper. Besides, have you ever tried to install from a CD with a bad scratch? HEADACHE!

Clone the disk

[heinlein]

I've found the easiest way to handle the lack of recovery media is to purchase an external USB drive, install Clonezilla on it, and take an image of the hard drive before I ever boot from it (or overwrite it).

Re:Download one

[IANAAC]

- I can't make Flash work on Ubuntu, even though I've tried numerous times. It keeps saying something about, "Not enough permission."

Having used Ubuntu for some time now, this one lie makes the rest of your list look suspect.

Again, having used Ubuntu for some time now, the rest of your list is, in fact, a lie as well. There are workalike programs for all of them, as well as the ability to run the original programs in Wine.

Ubuntu OK, Legacy Windows only

[snadrus]

Hmm, I don't have this problem with Ubuntu. If something happened, I can visit their web site to get a new install medium as well as be able to use it as a recovery disc to get back old data (both Ubuntu and Windows data).
This must be a legacy Windows problem. I expect it to continue to a point where any Windows OS breaking will instantly require a new machine purchase, as that's the layman expectation now.

Re:Download one

[Lumpy]

Your ISP web accelerator is nothing but a cacheing proxy.. click on install to install one under linux.
The emulators under linux play everything for atari and NES..
Just because you cant get flash working and refuse to get some help does not mean it's flawed... ask for help kid.
iTunes works great. Virtualbox + a win install + itunes works even with the iphone.
MS office works under the virtualbox install.. My wife has used it twice... OO.o is what she uses 98% of the time.
Who wants windows media encoder? are you insane?

and so on.... I can find an obscure list of apps that dont work under windows 7.

If you are hell bent on finding reasons for it to not work, it will fail for you.

P.S. all of the above my wife did on her own under ubuntu. She even installed wine and has Internet explorer 6 working under wine on her own for dealing with the idiot companies whos websites are poorly designed.

She is not a computer expert... she's an accountant.

Recovery Options Done Right

[WilliamGeorge]

Where I work (www.pugetsystems.com) we provide two recovery options with every Windows-based system: a DVD containing an image of that unique system, created through Windows 7's built-in tools, and the *original* Microsoft install disc. That way you have full control: you can restore to factory settings, or you can start completely fresh if you prefer. I think this is the ideal setup, at least for custom computers like we build, and our customers appreciate the options it gives them.

Maybe that isn't an option for the 'big boys' who are all about the cheapest prices, but I think that mentality comes at a high price in terms of customer satisfaction and overall quality. Paying more for a system with more reliable hardware, better support, etc is well worth it in my opinion. Oh, and for those who might say some can't afford it - that may well true, but you also have to consider lifespan. If a crappy system is cheap but only lasts 3 years, but you could get twice that length of time from a higher quality computer, then which is the better choice for those on a budget?

Maybe there's a reason

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard for Toshiba notebooks that its is because of the license for the OS. You can have either recovery discs and no hidden recovery partition or recovery partition with no recovery discs. According to Microsoft if they gave you a recovery partition installed on the hard drive and a set of recovery discs then they would have to charge for two licenses for the Windows product

What term does not need redefinition?

[tepples]

So that I do not randomly redefine terms in the future, what is the accepted term for a list of all hardware compatible with a given operating system, if not "hardware compatibility list"?

Recovery disk?

[Orion Blastar]

Just get an OEM copy of XP/Vista/7 from a friend who has one of the same type and use that and enter the COA key on your Windows PC or Laptop.

Works fine for me.

Why use a recovery disk and get bloated stuff you don't even need?

Ask your friends and relatives if they got an OEM Disk of Windows the same as you got, borrow it and install the COA key with that. If you ran out of activations call Microsoft say you reinstalled the Windows OS too many times and ask them nicely to reset the COA key so you get 12 more activation attempts.

Of course the best Recovery disk of all is a DVD-R of a Linux distro. :)

Oh yeah neat trick if someone's XP/Vista/7 computer gets fried ask for the case and everything else in it. The case has the OEM COA key for use on another PC called an "upgrade in hardware" and will activate. So you can buy broken XP/Vista/7 systems on eBay and other auctions to get legal possession of the OEM COA key and install it on another PC as an "Upgrade". Just make sure they didn't remove the COA key and sell it before you do. Cheapest way to get a legit and activated copy of XP/Vista/7 Windows. :)

Not allowed to test it? it will be their loss....

[janrinok]

If I cannot test it - I will not buy it. Don't worry, as soon as you explain that you will be forced to buy from a competitor they will open the box for you.

For XP users, setupp.ini was the key

[(H)elix1]

Even if you have a recovery CD, it is so worth building your own install media. The key bit is you need to find your setupp.ini file. Find it, gmail yourself a copy. With that info you can turn a retail CD into an OEM CD.

(Info on setupp.ini)
http://www.thetechguide.com/howto/setuppini.html

The next bit is creating an OEM ISO. Use any WinXP CD you can find - MSDN, etc - and use NLite to create a custom image. Great opportunity to slipstream in the service packs, patches, and any tuning you want as well. Replace the old setupp.ini with yours, and burn the ISO. Use the license key that came with your machine.

http://www.nliteos.com/

As a bonus, this makes for a nice clean OS. None of the aftermarket junk the manufactures add in.

http://www.nliteos.com/

Re:For XP users, setupp.ini was the key

[couchslug]

"Use the license key that came with your machine."

Or snarf the installed key before wiping it, as they may not be the same. Having more keys is always good.

EAC works great through Wine

[Anonymous Coward]

Used it for years through Wine on Linux, too.

Not anymore

[Leuf]

My Dad bought a Dell at the beginning of this year and it was as you say. I bought one for my Mom just within the past month and there were zero disks included. The only option was to burn recovery disks and a drivers disk. I didn't see anywhere in the purchasing to request a Windows disk, but it's possible I missed it in the umpteen pages of crap you have to wade through.

Re:Not anymore

[petermgreen]

Were these consumer machines (inspiron/studio/xps) or buisness machines (vostro/latitude/optiplex/precision)?

Re:Not anymore

[Leuf]

They were both Inspirons

PXE for all!

[Beardydog]

Setting up PXE boot on my home network is the best move I've ever made. No more searching for my Windows disc whenever I need to reinstall, no more wondering when my Windows disc got so scratched up, no more temporarily installing CD drives onto computers than don't actually need them just for the install, no more leaving the laptop with a broken disc drive that can't boot from external media in the closet.

Like the big 3 in the '70s

[uncoveror]

Computer manufacturers have become just like the big 3 auto manufacturers in the 1970s. They have never come to a corner they didn't cut. Asking 90% of computer buyers to burn their own recovery media is unreasonable. Surfing the Internet and checking email is all they know how to do. Even if they do have some idea about burning discs, they don't know which brands are good, and which will only make coasters, and you get only one chance to burn recovery media. Hewlett-Packard-Bell (I am comparing two companies, not confusing them) started this disgusting trend. It is transparent that their attitude is "There's a sucker born every minute. They are dumb enough to buy our computers." Once the rest of the industry saw HP getting away with this, they followed suit.

Dell was nice...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I know, Dell is evil... But when I forgot to check the box to pay two dollars to get a Windows disc, they overnighted me a free one after a ten minute call...

Huh?

[TRRosen]

I have received a restore disk as well as an install disk with every computer I have ever bought.

Oh thats right I buy Macs.

Seriously I add the cost of a full version of windows to any PC. Sooner or later you will have a problem best solved by reINSTALLING the software and a factory restore disk just wont cut it.

Re:Huh?

[mjwx]

I have received a restore disk as well as an install disk with every computer I have ever bought.

So have I

Oh thats right I buy Macs.

But I only pay half as much as you. Dell and local suppliers FTW. Why pay A$3K on an entry level i7 when it costs half as much for a custom build.

I use the spare money for blow and hookers.

WintoFlash - get it.

[scuzzyusbourne]

I used to install Cable Modems. This was back in the windows 98/ME days. Over HALF the customers I handled had no earthly idea where their install CDs were. A hard drive partition install is a good idea. Can't misplace that. Its right there. Problem 1 is: The "computer guy" deleting the partition. Problem 2 is a hard drive crash. CDs are too easily scratched. Many of the customers who DID have their install CDs, had them stored improperly. They were unusable. If they were usable the customer didn't have a clue where the CD key was. I don't blame the companies for going the partition route. 75% of the time the person will lose it. A partitioned copy is much harder to lose or destroy. Besides, if you aren't going to take the initiative to protect your investment then you get what you deserve. Get Wintoflash and a 4 gig USB flash drive. It only takes a few minutes to make a bootable windows installation flash drive. Its much harder to destroy that copy.

MSDNAA

[Anonymous Coward]

All users that got it through MSDNAA for example.

It's kind of silly to have a legitimate burnt Windows DVD laying around that says "LEGITIMATE KEY BELOW, DO NOT RE-USE"

Secret is Out

[stewbacca]

"... it made more sense to buy a new machine."

Oops, the PC industry's dirty-little-secret is out.

Building a laptop?

[tepples]

I would never be silly enough to buy my personal machine at a store.

Then where would you buy your personal laptop computer? I wasn't aware of how to build a laptop nowadays; I thought the motherboard, battery, and case were too customized for one another.

And an aside about my current signature, which I'll attempt to connect to the article somehow:

It'll come, eventually.

Running the same apps on an OS installed from a Ubuntu or Fedora disc instead of is an improvement over running the apps from the version of Windows on a recovery disc. But the discussion was about "a free alt", not just running the same apps. The apps on the list will "eventually" enter the public domain after I'm dead.

Recovery disk needed to legally re-sell system?

[walterbyrd]

As I understand it, the original receipt, or the recovery disk, is proof that your Windows OS is legal. The COA sticker does not prove anything, as far as the BSA is concerned.

Re:Recovery disk needed to legally re-sell system?

[jimicus]

No, the original receipt is proof. Nothing else.

Alas, as far as Windows is concerned, the COA sticker (or, more accurately, the number on it) is proof. Nothing else.

If the original receipt is lost and the BSA come knocking at your door (which, let's face it, is unlikely for an individual), you're in trouble.

If the COA sticker is damaged - and they're getting flimsier every year - you need to restore and you're not using a site-license (which uses entirely separate keys - and is also unlikely for an individual), you're also in trouble.

no such problems with OS X or Linux

[oldmac31310]

Right?

I just had this happen!

[eheldreth]

My roommate's SO was having problems with her Compaq laptop. She asked me to help and the OS needed to be reinstalled. The problem was there was no recovery disk. I run OS X and Linux on my systems and the latest copy of Windows I had was '98. The solution, I installed Ubuntu. Aside from one complaint about a particular windows based game CD the decidedly non technical owner is extremely happy with it.

follow up, read be for respond to my post please

[PinkyGigglebrain]

Just to clarify.

I'm not taking about a blank CD/DVD-R. I'm talking about the one you have to buy from the dealer if you didn't burn a reset disc when you first fired your system up.

Acer has been doing this atleast from 2006

[Anonymous Coward]

..And only now it got into slashdot?

Yes they do

[SmallFurryCreature]

Just used the disc myself on a Macbook recently. Two discs, one for the OS, one for other software.

So what kind of nonsense are you spouting? Ever owned a Mac?

Re:Yes they do

[jedidiah]

> So what kind of nonsense are you spouting? Ever owned a Mac?

I own THREE actually.

That is where this rather subtle distinction comes into play.

Of course leave it to the Apple fanboys to be totally CLUELESS while spouting nonsense out of their nether regions.

Anyone else, when they see a "real" OS installer disk they expect that it can be used on ANY system and not just the one that it came with.

This is a key difference between a proper OS disk and a mere "recovery disk".

Wait, I thought it was piracy?

[AnAdventurer]

Is it not (according to Them) an act of piracy if we copy the software we are "renting" to another disk? I get so confused with this sometimes it's ok to copy, sometimes not.....

Re:Wait, I thought it was piracy?

[RoboRay]

It's ok to copy software yourself only if it saves them money.

Windows Ubuntu OSX

[SmallFurryCreature]

OSX has fewer steps then Ubuntu because there is no partitioning to be done, it doesn't have a swap space. It also doesn't bother with asking you about your keyboard layout, because it knows. The Mac knows all. Including what you are going to download to it. That is why you pay Apple, to hush up your Mac.

Re:Windows Ubuntu OSX

[xgr3gx]

OSX is Unix based, how can it not have swap, unless it defaults to some size automatically based on the amount of ram installed.

Not Much of a Problem for Techies

[pgn674]

All you really need to do is torrent an OEM version of the OS disk you need. Since you're not downloading a cracked version and you'll be using the Windows key sticker (certificate of authenticity) on the bottom or side of the machine, the legality of the download is gray, and the morality of it is fine.

However, there were a couple problems the computer repair place I worked at came across. When Vista first came out, lots of people ordered laptops that came with Vista, but requested that XP be put on it. The distributors did this, but never gave the customer an XP COA, or a recovery CD. So, we had to tell customers we could put on Vista using the COA the machine had, or contact the manufacturer and ask for an XP disk that might cost money and would take a while to ship. Fortunately, the distributors did but on an XP recovery partition you could use if the HDD wasn't failing, though of course it came laden with crapware and such.

There was another problem, too. Microsoft now purposefully makes it so the text and keys on their COAs wipe away after a couple years. They say they do it for security reasons, but it's annoying as hell.

Netbook with recover CD

[x0mbie]

I love the fact that my Netbook came with a recovery CD, but there is no drive built into the thing. Yes, I can burn the CD onto a bootable USB thumb drive, or find a CD drive I can hook up via USB, but it is still a pain if I ever wanted to go back to factory defaults for whatever reason. I couldn't imagine dealing with something like that with my Dad or relatives that are barely computer competent.

There's an easy solution to this problem.

[joedoc]

1. Download/burn free ISO for (insert FOSS operating system name here).
2. Insert in optical drive.
3. Wipe, format, install.
4. Store (insert FOSS operating system name here) disk for later use.
5. Demand refund for Windows license from vendor (optional).

So, where's the problem?

Free Recovery Disks

[juancnuno]

You can get free recovery disks here

Re:Download one

[jimicus]

> - I can't make Flash work on Ubuntu, even though I've tried numerous times. It keeps saying something about, "Not enough permission."

Then you aren't really trying. You aren't actually sincerely trying to make it work. You're just trying to make it fail. You just want something to whine about. You're just a troll.

It doesn't get any easier than a vendor repository managed package.

Actually, the OP probably is trying - and I'll tell you precisely what the OP is doing.

S/he is going to a website which demands flash, and if it's not detected, the website brings up a message saying "If you don't have flash, you can download it here."

The OP clicks on the link, which takes them to Adobe's website and searches for Flash for Linux - they get offered the following:

- Flash Player 10.1 for Linux (YUM) : System Requirements - Browser Firefox, Mozilla, Seamonkey.
- Flash Player 10.1 for Linux (.tar.gz) : System Requirements - Browser Firefox, Mozilla, Seamonkey.
- Flash Player 10.1 for Linux (.rpm) : System Requirements - Browser Firefox, Mozilla, Seamonkey.
- Flash Player 10.1 for Linux (.deb) : System Requirements - Browser Firefox, Mozilla, Seamonkey.
- APT for Ubuntu 9.04+ : System Requirements - Browser Firefox, Mozilla, Seamonkey.

They've got no idea which of the five options is correct, so they probably click on the first option that comes up. Alas, YUM is specific to RedHat-derived distributions (it was originally produced by YellowDog, who distribute a RedHat derivative), so unless they're using a RedHat-derived distribution that uses YUM, that doesn't work. Is the OP's distribution RedHat derived? Do they know enough about Linux to ask themselves that question?

The second option is the tarball. They open that - what's inside the tarball is a single library, libflashplayer.so (I've just downloaded it myself to check). They probably have no idea what to do with that - does Ubuntu have the good sense to put it into /usr/local/lib and restart the browser?

Next on the list is the RPM. Again, doesn't work unless they're on a RedHat-derived distribution.

Okay, now we're onto .deb - and rapidly running out of patience. That actually has a good chance of working if the .rpm didn't. Now I'm typing this on a Mac so I have no idea if it will. Let's assume it doesn't for whatever reason.

Finally (after about an hour of messing around, because the OP doesn't really know what they're doing so has tried opening everything they've downloaded a number of ways) we get to APT for Ubuntu 9.04+. Whatever the hell APT is. Yes, I know what it is, does our OP who just downloaded Ubuntu and hit "next... next... next..." when they installed? Or are they going to assume that APT is something entirely unrelated?

Operating System

[RAMMS EIN]

``vendors instead take the cheaper option of installing recovery software on a hard disk partition, leaving the buyer with no physical copy of the operating system they paid for''

I don't know if this is still the case, but the last time I took a look at this recovery software, there wasn't any way to install the operating system I paid for, either. This was several years ago, and the recovery software came on a separate CD. However, when run, this would actually overwrite your harddisk with some image which did not match the installation as shipped, nor matched an actual OS install - where you can, for example, use separate partitions for the OS and your data.

Failing disks are a problem, but these sorts of recovery software add a new and unnecessary problem: if, for whatever reason, you need to recover your OS, they will also wipe out all your data and installed applications. That's not recovery, that's destruction! Of course, I know about partitioning tools that can split partitions while keeping the data, and I back up my data, so I can work around the breakage, but it's still annoying.

Re:Operating System

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know cuz I haven't run any manufacturer-installed OS for close to 8 years now. Get to the BIOS screen, select the option to boot from optical media, insert Linux distro of choice. Boot, install, never look back.

How many people actually registers crapware?

[Lead Butthead]

How many people immediately uninstalls the crapware as oppose to actually registers them?

Re:How many people actually registers crapware?

[mlts]

From what I see, people end up registering the stuff that pops up in order to get it to shut up. The usual antivirus program for example that pops up notices that the end of the world will happen because it will stop getting new definitions in 30 days. If they knew better, they would be pulling that stuff out and installing Microsoft Security Essentials which is provided by MS at no charge, but provides as good AV protection as everyone else.

Not just the cost of the disc...

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything has associated personnel and tool costs, and assuming the OEM outsources the actual CD manufacturing, it would go something like this:
-the engineer who creates and maintains the disc image
-their supervisor
-the engineer who validates the final disc
-their supervisor
-the graphical designer who creates the artwork for the case/sleeve
-their supervisor
-the person who interfaces with the supplier
-their supervisor
-the person who has to coordinate all this so the correct CD makes it into the bottom of the PC box
-their supervisor

So that 50 cent piece of plastic requires *at least* 10 heads, who get a salary, benefits, a phone, and a computer.

Acer/Gateway/Emachines

[Xacid]

I ran into this mess a few months back actually. User had a refurb emachine from Revonate. I ordered the recovery disks DIRECTLY from the emachines website. I get them and they're not pressed, they're burned and disk 2 appeared to not be finalized and could not be read when the software looked for it. I fought with emachines support for 2 weeks with them constantly saying "we do not support refurb machines, talk to Revonate" anytime I tried to explain "I BOUGHT THEM FROM *YOU* TWO WEEKS AGO."

I even talked with the VP at Revonate who insisted this was on emachines hands and the recovery media they offer was on the harddrive - yet we were dealing with, you got it, a failed harddrive.

What I finally had to do to even talk to a real person was file a BBB complaint to which a woman called basically saying "you get nothing" because it wasn't within the 14 day window, I shit you not, despite my repeated efforts to contact them HOURS after I had received the disks. I tried to dispute it further but BBB closed the issue and essentially said to hire a lawyer if I wanted to pursue it further.

All over a single ISO file they simply could have released to me or sent me a single disk.

At the end of the day I ended up just buying the client another copy of Windows and sent her on her way; me - days of time wasted and paying for a job out of pocket. Acer/Emachines/Gateway- one less client which may be a drop in the bucket, but I'm okay with that. Anything to never have to go through that mess again.

Burn your CD from recovery partition using nLite

[anton_kg]

nLite creates customized CD images. One of its option is to assemble a CD from the files on your partition. This is what I do before removing all crap from entire HDD, creating one main partition and one for a swap file and installing Linux ;-)

Recovery disk problems

[tp_xyzzy]

One interesting aspect is that because they partition the hard disk in such way that all primary partitions are filled with data, the recovery disk in the original hard disk makes installing dualboot linux considerably more difficult. For example ubuntu in these machines will just fail at installation and user will need to resize and move and delete original partitions to get extended partition available. It's quite easy to learn to how to do it, but it definitely prevents large number of end users to install dualboot linux on their machines. Instead they will need to opt either to keep windows only or linux only... Cannot get both. Guess they try to make it more difficult to install linux...

forget the iso

[tempest69]

I just figure, plug it into the internet press some arcane key sequence at boot, and let the computer install over the internet.
No point in making it three times more complicated, buy blanks, find a working machine, , download the ISO, figure out how to burn an ISO from that machine. Hope that the media is compatible that DVD+R or DVD-R was the right thing for your box. Start the install back at your broken box.. hope that neither the download or ISO was corrupt. Then go through the whole process of installing.
To the user the concept of the ISO to save .12 USD is asinine. I am competent at doing the whole process, and find the concept loathsome.

Storm

Ubuntu + VirtualBox = happy

[Anonymous Coward]

Well,
I recently bought a brand new Acer laptop and sure enough it didn't come with the operating system discs. It didn't even come with the lame recovery discs, instead it had a separate partition. Along with the new laptop I also bought a solid state drive. Because of the strategy used I couldn't just replace the drive with the solid state and install the operating system I bought with the laptop. In the end I just install Ubuntu and Virtualbox, so now any time I have a windows specific need (that I can't accomplishing using wine) I boot up windows in Virtualbox and get it done. Now a days the only reason I boot up a VM of windows is to test for IE6,7,8 :P

Recovery disks

[Anonymous Coward]

As a computer salesperson in a store chain that will remain nameless, we offer (as a service) to create the recovery DVDs. 90% of the time they decline because they can 'just do it themselves'. It makes me curious, as the article implies, how many actually do.

Just sayin'.

replace over repair

[greywire]

Its just another step along the way to where we never fix anything we just buy a new one.

Its happened to many other products and industries.

Its our throw-away society. Don't fix things, just toss it and get a new one. Its better for the economy!

They should just start putting labels on the computers:

"No user serviceable software inside"

argh

[jschmitz]

What I meant to say was you can also load linux for them makes little difference

I must be the first person to say "screw 'em?"

[smchris]

Anyone who cares about their data at all probably already has a USB hard drive, right? How much does it cost to download and burn a copy of PartedMagic? Fools and the careless I don't spend a lot of time worrying about.

Imaging software is your friend

[Anonymous Coward]

Uninstall what you don't need, install what you do, migrate over any necessary data, tune up your system and create an image on an affordable external drive (say, with a free-for-home-use program like Macrium Reflect, which will also create a boot CD to do a recovery with). This is pretty damn fast with USB 2.0. Perform any repartitioning needed and you're done (in some cases you might have to write the image back to the drive after this, but not always).

I image all four of my Windows computers at home about once a month - with the aforementioned free software - to one cheap external drive, then copy the contents of that drive to another just like it (which I keep with me when I leave the house) for redundancy. Voila! Peace of mind.

I've recovered two of my machines from their backup images for different reasons, and they were two of the most painless recoveries I've ever been through. Highly recommended.

The hidden costs...

[PhunkySchtuff]

I've written about the Out of Box Experience differences between a Mac and a PC.

What are the hidden costs in productivity losses when you have how many thousands of people spending time (to sit in front of their computers) and money (to buy blank discs) when a run of pressed CDs (with no jewel cases or anything) costs mere cents each.

The comparison I've outlined is between a late model Sony VAIO and a MacBook Pro.

Taking the Mac out of the box, booting it up, going through the registration assistant and getting to a desktop where I can start working - 5 minutes.

With the Sony, it takes around 15-20 minutes to get to the same stage, most of that sitting at a black screen while Windows prepares itself, and then another 2 hours to burn the recovery media, which ties up the optical drive so I can't start installing any software until this has completed.

5 minutes versus something like 150 minutes until you can start installing software to make your machine usable out of the box.

Multiply this out by the number of people who must go through this process and the time wasted is absolutely insane. Why can't they at least image the machine in the factory and boot it once so that Windows does all it's preparation before you get the machine, or image the machine with a specific machine image that's already prepared, rather than image it with a generic image that has to install itself at first boot?

You're missing a fact here

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

Some of the disks that come with Macs are specially coded to recognize what machines they "belong to," and will refuse to install if you try to use it on a different machine. So, for example, here at work I once tried to restore a 15" MBP with an OS disc from a 17" model; the disk's software told me that the disk was not for that model of Mac.

Interesting recent example from ASUS

[seebs]

Picked up an ASUS laptop. It burns a three-disk recovery CD set. ... which CANNOT BE USED for the exceedingly common task of "reload on an SSD". Because, see, it just copies the exact contents of the
first 20GB or so of the drive, including the partition table.

There is hardware in this laptop for which they do not have ANY drivers available by any other means, there's no provided recovery disc, and so on. Supposedly, there is a third-party tool which can back up the activation record, and another that can back up ALL drivers, and between those two and MS's legal-and-supported Windows 7 ISOs, you can actually get a clean install with drivers loaded, but... This is pretty crazy.

Well it was a good thing for me

[Evil_Ether]

This is why I started using Ubuntu and have never looked back.

Why bother fighting it? Ubuntu

[JumpSocial]

When my hard disk or computer looses Windows or if Windows needs to be reinstalled, if I don't have a disk, I just install Ubuntu.

It's not just the cost of one disk

[mjwx]

That's how close we're watching costs these days?

It's the cost of all the crapware you delete. The fact I get recovery media from Dell is the biggest reason I buy Dell, it costs them nothing to stamp out the 7 odd disks, other manufacturers just dont want you re-installing the OS without the bundled crapware as well.

Retards! (and I include both my wife and ...

[RockDoctor]

... in that)
If I didn't do the bloody jobs myself, not one of their machines would have any sort of back up ; not one of them would have R'd Their F-ing Ms, or burned the appropriate discs. Oh well, the wife isn't a problem - all backed up (not that she knows it). The Daughter is going to have a nasty surprise when she discovers that I can't reach around the world and repair her computer in the middle of Australia.
Oh dear.
What a pity.
Never mind.

Or, as Larry and Jerry (I think) put it "Just Think of it as Evolution In Action".

Re:Windows Ubuntu OSX

[dylan_-]

OSX is Unix based, how can it not have swap

By default, it uses a swap file rather than a dedicated partition.

ubuntu

[mr_java66]

free. install can be put on a thumb drive. enough said.

No OS disks

[DarthVain]

Equals not buying for me.

If I got a computer and found that the OS disks were not included, I would return it.

Personally I think selling a system without OS disks is criminal.

Re:Hard disk failure? Unlikely...

[zimboptoo]

I worked in IT at a medium-sized college, and we got 3 or 4 laptops a week in with either HDD failure or unrecoverable corruption (usually due to viruses). In either case, recovery partitions were un-usable. Fortunately, we had a bunch of OEM install disks lying around, but most people aren't in that situation. So yeah, it's less common than reinstalling due to software issues, but hard drive crashes happen often enough that it's worth having an install disk. But then, this is just one of the many reasons why I build my own computers and use exclusively OSS.

Re:Hard disk failure? Unlikely...

[damn_registrars]

3 or 4 laptops a week in with either HDD failure or unrecoverable corruption

Admittedly I was thinking more of desktops than laptops; and laptops are a very different game when it comes to hardware mortality rates. On top of that, considering how laptops have approached (if not eclipsed) desktops in unit sales, it is a valid point that indeed it is possible that more people are going to see HD failures requiring OS reinstalls.

However, college students are not very representative of laptop users. College students tend to carry their laptops around quite a bit more than your typical user; and of course that increases the odds that the laptop will be handled poorly, which increases the chance of a physical force causing hardware failure.