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Artificial Life Forms Evolve Basic Memory, Strategy

Calopteryx notes a New Scientist piece on how digital organisms in a computer world called Avida replicate, mutate, and have evolved a rudimentary form of memory. Another example of evolution in a simulation lab is provided by reader Csiko: "An evolutionary algorithm was used to derive a control strategy for simulated robot soccer players. The results are interesting — after a few hundred generations, the robots learn to defend, pass, and score — amazing considering that there was no trainer in the system; the self-organizing differentiated behavior of the players emerged solely out of the evolutionary process."

206 comments

  1. Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    I, for one, welcome our new artificial, man made overlords

    1. Re:Oh... by Deus.1.01 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Its allright, if they ever gain sentience we can defeat them with Vuvselas.

      --
      My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
    2. Re:Oh... by trum4n · · Score: 1

      Yep, We're fucked.

    3. Re:Oh... by Mikkeles · · Score: 3, Informative

      A pre-publication (not behind a paywall) version of the Avida (PDF) paper is here.
      A good guide for those who don't welcome our new artificial, man-made overlords and wish to resist ;^)

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    4. Re:Oh... by supertrinko · · Score: 1

      Don't get your hopes up, they have yet to develop the ability to call a sport by the proper name.

      --
      If it rhymes it must be true.
  2. Missing Something by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Needs a Skynet tag!

    1. Re:Missing Something by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it really does, look at the video it's called the "Skiinet Simulator"

  3. God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    We all know, God did this, and evolution is fake. This proves it!

    1. Re:God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, because of some arbitrary distinction between micro and macroevolution

    2. Re:God by starslab · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If evolution is the work of Gods, and we can refrain from wiping ourselves out in the next few generations, then we shall be as Gods... And if you follow the mythologies of old, we'll probably be just as stupid and make as many silly jealous mistakes as those very "human" Gods from back then...

    3. Re:God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a God today! You can go fuck yourself. I am the one and the prime! Bow before me, you worthless human motherfucker.

    4. Re:God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does this prove it?

    5. Re:God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two Words: Novel Genes

    6. Re:God by V!NCENT · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Evolution isn't some process, it's a phenomenon.

      Genes get mixed and mutate and everything turns to chaos.

      What survives and duplicates gets to the next level. That which dies cannot duplicate and dies.

      How simple do you want it? This is where you stop thinking, God or no god.

      --
      Here be signatures
    7. Re:God by camperdave · · Score: 0, Troll

      God does the selecting.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    8. Re:God by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      Could be. Everything with religion can be mixed with science. Science is just there to try to understand what's there that is there.

      If God does the selecting then you'd be talking about a devine plan (who gets to mate with who) and even that can be explaned with the Many Worlds Interpretation. Just as heaven and hell can be explained with multiple universes.

      I do not believe in inteligent design, but I will also not deny other peoples believes, because who am I to claim the right to believe in what I believe if I deny others to have the right to belive in what they believe.

      If you look at the top scientists, most of them believe in God :)

      --
      Here be signatures
    9. Re:God by ioshhdflwuegfh · · Score: 1

      Round in circles here we go...

    10. Re:God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Considering that we had dinosaurs for many millions of years it seems that god is rather bad at getting evolution to produce humans.

    11. Re:God by Glonoinha · · Score: 1

      Ray, when someone asks you if you're a god, you say "YES"!

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    12. Re:God by Glonoinha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you look at the top scientists, most of them believe in God :)

      Actually if you ask the top scientists, most of them will say they believe in God.
      It's the most politically correct answer, but in their minds they are thinking 'no, dumbass, and quit asking'.

      When I was young I went to Sunday School religiously. I wanted to believe, and I wanted to see the path.
      After years of that, one day in Sunday School I picked up the one book it all centered around (the Bible) and asked the teacher if it was true.
      He said 'yes'.

      I asked if it was completely true and that all the answers were in there.
      He said 'yes'.

      Being fairly familiar with the book of Genesis (it was quite interesting, quite detailed, and the first chapter so I read it a few times more often than any others) and the story of the creation of the Earth, I asked if that part was true.
      He said 'yes'.

      So I said 'Where's the dinosaurs?' Blank stares all around.

      I gave him my home phone number and said that when he had an answer for that one, call me and I'll be back. He never called. Now I'm a top scientist.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    13. Re:God by Enigma2175 · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you look at the top scientists, most of them believe in God :)

      Do they? This page says that 40% of scientists surveyed believed in god (way less than the populace at large) and only 10% of "elite scientists" believe in god. I wouldn't consider 10% of scientists to be "most" of them.

      --

      Enigma

    14. Re:God by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You say evolution's not a process, spout some meaningless garbage about it being a phenomenon, and then go on to define it in terms that sound awfully like a process to me.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    15. Re:God by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      "So I said 'Where's the dinosaurs?'"
      I don't believe in God, like I already said. Especialy not in any one of the religions out there.
      Better yet, if he would exist then I am going to seriously kick him very, very hard in the balls after I get passed that gate of heaven and if I won't get in I will break in. I'm that pissed of about certain things.

      But thanks for the effort of blocking my effort to open the door to science for fierce legilious people.

      --
      Here be signatures
    16. Re:God by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      The pattern that your brain likes to see in everything is actually cause and effect. Just because I write it down like a process doesn't _make_ it a process.

      --
      Here be signatures
    17. Re:God by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

      Escaping earths orbit, walking on the moon and then making it back alive is sort of somewhat of an evolution to me, but hey...

      --
      Here be signatures
    18. Re:God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple: Genesis 1:20-23 and 1:24, 25. Maybe your 'teacher didn't know that "whales" in KJV would be better translated serpent, reptile, or dragon. (it is everywhere else in the KJV) I'm sure you researched that, right?

    19. Re:God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Settle down now. You don't need to put him down that hard for pretending to be a know it all without actually knowing anything. He needs his little self righteous lines of bullshit in order to make it through the day. You can tell this from where he claimed to be mommy's top little scientist now.

    20. Re:God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He knew we needed a fossil-fuel based economy obviously. Just took a while to jumpstart. And to test our faith of course. Can't have enough of that.

    21. Re:God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You falsely assume that the ommision of something equals a statement of non-existence. That's pretty careless logic IMO. And while it doesn't use the word "dinosaur", it does mention leviathon and "creeping beasts" - or something to that extent - look it up yourself.

    22. Re:God by haxney · · Score: 1

      And according to that link,

      Fully half of these top scientists are religious.

      Looking at the referenced book itself, "Science Vs. Religion: What Scientists Really Think" by Elaine Ecklund, on page 35 (viewable on Google Books), it says:

      About 36 percent of scientists have some form of a belief in God. When this same question about belief in God is asked of members of the general public, about 94 percent claim belief. [...] About 28 percent of scientists who are part of a religious tradition do not know whether or not they believe in God.

      This study was explicitly limited to scientists from the following "top" universities, according to the University of Florida's annual report of the "Top American Research Universities":

      • Columbia University
      • Cornell University
      • Duke University
      • Harvard University
      • Johns Hopkins University
      • Massachusetts Institute of Technology
      • Princeton University
      • Stanford University
      • University of Pennsylvania
      • University of California at Berkeley
      • University of California, Los Angeles
      • University of Chicago
      • University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign
      • University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
      • University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
      • University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
      • University of Washington, Seattle
      • University of Wisconsin, Madison
      • University of Southern California
      • Washington University
      • Yale University

      In other words: according to the source you cite, no, most (64%) of the top scientists do not believe in God.

  4. World Cup 2014 by 2phar · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wow look at that teamwork.. maybe those guys could represent England?

    1. Re:World Cup 2014 by captain_dope_pants · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, they appear to have some skill and cohesion as a team - ther no place for that in the England side :)

      --
      while (true != false) process_more_stupid_code();
    2. Re:World Cup 2014 by Sulphur · · Score: 3, Funny

      Can they snatch defeat from the jaws of Victory?

    3. Re:World Cup 2014 by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

      They probably could until the manager stuck his oar in and screwed it up

      --
      politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    4. Re:World Cup 2014 by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      More like, snatch utter, unmitigated defeat from the jaws of defeat.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    5. Re:World Cup 2014 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well if you're going to fail you might as well do it in a spectacular fashion, no?

    6. Re:World Cup 2014 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it depends - did they stop every five minutes to swop the entire team? if so it was 'American football'

    7. Re:World Cup 2014 by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      It wasn't spectacular.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:World Cup 2014 by Kvasio · · Score: 1

      surely they could do better than French did at WC. (team play)

  5. Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If God were real and just, all of the people who deny evolutionary theory would die of polio. Without evolution we wouldn't have the vaccine.

  6. Not really amazing... by blahplusplus · · Score: 4, Informative

    "amazing considering that there was no trainer in the system;"

    Not really, it's merely selecting patterns it is not aware of if it's patterns are "successful" or not. If you run a pattern generator long enough you can get all possible patterns within a finite possibility space.

    1. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, they've evolved politics.

    2. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean like humans?

    3. Re:Not really amazing... by bakuun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't get why this has been modded "funny". It's true. Just like monkeys tapping away at keyboards in order to generate the works of Shakespeare, a computer can generate player algorithm patterns that work well in this particular setting. The speed is just boosted by selectively choosing the ones that match whatever it is you want to get at the end.

    4. Re:Not really amazing... by TranceThrust · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The question of course is how large this search space is in comparison to the samples tried from it, to determine whether it really is amazing or not.

    5. Re:Not really amazing... by metageek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In evolution what is important is selection, as long as there is selection (based on fitness) and variability the system will adapt to the environment (the things that shape fitness). So there is a trainer, it is called selection.

      --
      metageek
    6. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Indeed, the scoring function is here the trainer. The design(er) of the neural networks also helps to direct the process.

      Of course, still a nice optimization problem, tuning such networks by hand would probably be a major task.

    7. Re:Not really amazing... by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You do have to be a bit careful, though--- sometimes there is a hidden trainer in the system. In evolutionary algorithms, there are often a lot of parameters and data structures to tweak at the beginning, e.g., what kinds of crossover and mutation operators do you have, and what's your bit-string encoding? There are a whole lot of ways to slip in human domain knowledge of which things are important into the up-front engineering.

    8. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Saying there wasn't a trainer in the system is a bit of a misunderstanding really.

      Evolutionary algorithms always makes use of a fitness function to define which generations are to survive and evolve and which are to die off, this is the case in the presented setup as well. Without knowing the project i'd guess they let the "teams" play against each other and let the winners survive.

      If there wasn't a fitness function it wouldn't really be an evolutionary algorithm, evolution sorta implies "survival of the fittest" and all that you know :) The interesting part is observing the emergent behavior, in other words what we were not expecting to get out of the system. When the system doesn't have any knowledge of what a "defender" is, or what "passing the ball" means, it's interesting to see these well-known patterns evolve even when they are not specified, this is what matters to the AI researcher.

      Other implementations of evolutionary algorithms may be fun (http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/07/genetic-programming-evolution-of-mona-lisa/) but are not showing emergent behavior because you are asking for a specific output through the fitness algorithm. That is the main difference.

    9. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OH well BOO to you too, Mr I-Hate-Everything-Ever.

      Way to insult the whole of existence.

    10. Re:Not really amazing... by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "In evolution what is important is selection, as long as there is selection (based on fitness) and variability the system will adapt to the environment (the things that shape fitness). So there is a trainer, it is called selection."

      Not exactly. Unless variability is driven, selection and variability *may* press the system to fit the environment. But there's no security: the system may be destroyed as well.

    11. Re:Not really amazing... by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The fun thing is that these robots truly have a one-track mind. They do not learn -at all- within one generation, even if they have a brain that is relatively similar to ours. The brain is configured -entirely- at "birth" by the natural selection algorithm.

      And yet they display a few remarkably human traits, that seem to -but don't- indicate learning. Memory. Strategy. Having a strategy responding to the "enemy". Yet by most standards -they don't think during the game. This makes one wonder ... is the fact that humans have memory, adapt "somewhat", devise strategy really an indication of the level of thought we think humans have ?

      Makes one wonder just how one-track the human mind is. Everyone likes to always accuse everyone else of "not seeing the truth" about very nontrivial problems. Are people really "seeing the truth" or just repeating what they were programmed ?

      History of science definitely seems to agree with the "programmed" argument. Other histories ... even more. We are mindless automatons, we just like to think we aren't.

    12. Re:Not really amazing... by hvm2hvm · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Depends on what level of perspective you want to look at. If you look at simple tasks and abilities, yes, a human will learn and think (some more than others) over the course of his life. It is evident if you take for example twins that grow in different environments, they get to have different abilities and understanding of the world.

      OTOH if you widen your view and look at how humans interact between each other (i.e. society), how they think (technology, culture), and other things like that they don't really learn anything during their life. That's where evolution kicks in, people born in different generations have different ways of interacting and thinking. Some are behind their times while others are ahead which I see as a normal mutation, if you will, that can be a succesful one or a failing one. But even revolutionary people become conservatives after a certain age. That's why people die, that's how society evolves.

      Yes, it's not all black and white like I made it sound, some things in the first category are inate and some in the secondary can still be modified by experience but I think my point was properly made.

      --
      ics
    13. Re:Not really amazing... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Not really, it's merely selecting patterns it is not aware of if it's patterns are "successful" or not. If you run a pattern generator long enough you can get all possible patterns within a finite possibility space.

      It's selecting working patterns faster than random selection would.

    14. Re:Not really amazing... by mangu · · Score: 1

      The speed is just boosted by selectively choosing the ones that match whatever it is you want to get at the end.

      There's a huge difference in purpose.

      You can move around at random, like a particle floating in the sea. If you follow that particle long enough you'll visit every port of the ocean.

      Now assume you want to go somewhere. Your movement will be constantly changed by random factors so you will need to make corrections but in the end you'll get to the place you wanted.

      No two ships follow exactly the same route in the ocean, their path may differ by a few meters or by several kilometers, but in the end they will get to the same port.

    15. Re:Not really amazing... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Genetic/Evolutionary Algorithms is best (but not often) summed up as A Directed Random Search.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    16. Re:Not really amazing... by ultranova · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you run a pattern generator long enough you can get all possible patterns within a finite possibility space.

      While true, this is also completely meaningless. For even trivial pattern spaces of, say, 512 bits, "long enough" would be far longer than the current age of the Universe.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    17. Re:Not really amazing... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I don't get why this has been modded "funny". It's true. Just like monkeys tapping away at keyboards in order to generate the works of Shakespeare, a computer can generate player algorithm patterns that work well in this particular setting. The speed is just boosted by selectively choosing the ones that match whatever it is you want to get at the end.

      And this teeny little boost is the difference between getting what you want before or after the monkeys and the computer disappear from proton decay.

      Seriously. Any argument that includes "assuming infinite time" belongs in the sphere of theology, not computer science.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    18. Re:Not really amazing... by ioshhdflwuegfh · · Score: 1

      I don't get why this has been modded "funny".

      Let's check out the parent post:

      Not really, it's merely selecting patterns it is not aware of if it's patterns are "successful" or not.

      Author ascribes awareness to the selection process. Grammatical ambiguity related to uses of "it's" some people may also consider to be funny--change the first "it's" to "its" for comical effects.

      If you run a pattern generator long enough you can get all possible patterns within a finite possibility space.

      Now that's just plain LOL. Even if we assume that the pattern space is finite, which is not clear at all, given that we're dealing here with velocities, possibly even classical chaos, the dimension of the space must be humongous, thus evolutive algoritms.

    19. Re:Not really amazing... by mdda · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not really. While the literature makes a lot of fine distinctions between the various cross-over methods/rates etc., in reality it's pretty academic.

      Getting the genetic process going on a population is a really small amount of code, and there's a huge payoff to seeing it work for yourself (rather than using someone else's Black Box code).

      The real key is that 'mashing' two individuals together to create a 'child' (evolution) is a whole lot better than creating a child as a random variation of one of those individuals (hill climbing), which is in turn a whole lot better than simply creating new individuals at random (monkeys at keyboards).

      But you don't have to trust me. You should be able to code something up in an hour or two to see the effects. Don't worry about the details. This stuff really works.

    20. Re:Not really amazing... by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 2, Informative

      While true, this is also completely meaningless. For even trivial pattern spaces of, say, 512 bits, "long enough" would be far longer than the current age of the Universe.

      Exactly, see here for an illustration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program

      --
      PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
    21. Re:Not really amazing... by mdda · · Score: 1

      Ahh - but you are muddying the waters (perhaps intentionally) with the loading word 'Directed'.

      One can take the word 'directed' and infer that there must be an intelligent Director.

      Alternatively, simply understand that the 'directed' means that there's a direction (like a vector) that leads to improvement. And that vector is just pointing there because if it pointed elsewhere things would get worse... There doesn't need to be any external Director - just like a compass needle doesn't need to be guided alone magnetic field lines, the direction of the search/evolution is a self-directing process.

    22. Re:Not really amazing... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      You've missed the point of course, not all information (or patterns) need to be generated, only a finite subset will ever needs to be found to be useful, to put it another way you can make a million variations of a fork, but it's still useful as a fork.

    23. Re:Not really amazing... by mdda · · Score: 1

      " But there's no security: the system may be destroyed as well. "

      That's extraordinarily unlikely. Granted, if you're only looking at a single individual, mutations/breeding may cause catastrophic changes.

      But on a population-wide basis, sudden overall declines in 'best individual' fitness are pretty much impossible.

    24. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What's academic during the first few cycles turn into a significant bias during the next few hundred rounds...

    25. Re:Not really amazing... by Glonoinha · · Score: 1

      I bet it plays a mean game of chess.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    26. Re:Not really amazing... by Glonoinha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Interesting point. Perhaps the 'direction' comes from the sociological benefits and/or penalties for a given physical or mental trait, which could be driven internally by the system in a feedback loop.

      Lets take the most basic and easily understood example today - having a child.

      Does society fiscally reward or fiscally punish having a child? Both, actually, depending on where you are on the socioeconomic scale.
      If you are a young and extremely poor single woman, society fiscally rewards having a child. A woman with making minimum wage at a part time job can increase her cashflow by 50% and reduce her expenses by another 50% simply by having a baby (Section 8 housing assistance, WIC, food stamps, etc.)
      If you are an established and extremely wealthy single man, society fiscally punishes having a child. A successful paternity suit against a man grossing $120,000 a year in CA or MA ($120k isn't extremely wealthy there, but it's a start) can reduce his monthly available cash after taxes and fixed expenses (rent, car payment, insurance, etc) from $2000 / month to $0, possibly leaving him at a fiscal deficit each month until he downsizes his lifestyle, simply because the state will take $2000 per month from his paycheck and give it to the mother of the child.

      These are pretty radical examples, but I can see where about three generations of such disparate measures on both ends of the spectrum will have a pretty serious impact on the genetic and educational makeup of the following generations of that civilization. People today point to how the group living in poverty is growing rapidly and how the upper class is being narrowed into the hands of fewer and fewer, and never stop to wonder what we are doing to cause it to happen.

      Directed evolution doesn't always mean beneficial or better. And it definitely doesn't have to mean outside or divine influence.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    27. Re:Not really amazing... by Glonoinha · · Score: 1

      I was wondering where the offshore guys got the algorithm for the sort routine they used in our last outsourced project.
      Thanks.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    28. Re:Not really amazing... by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "" But there's no security: the system may be destroyed as well. "

      That's extraordinarily unlikely. Granted, if you're only looking at a single individual, mutations/breeding may cause catastrophic changes.
      But on a population-wide basis, sudden overall declines in 'best individual' fitness are pretty much impossible."

      On a population-wide basis, system breakage is not only likely but it is the norm: it's called species extinction.

    29. Re:Not really amazing... by bussdriver · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem space is so vast when you get into the necessary details humans take for granted:
      Its so vast that it makes secure passwords look simplistic - this is far beyond brute forcing AES encryption. Even a simplified problem space is usually quite large in terms of possible combinations the only advantage AI work has is that there are no singular solutions but a large fuzzy set of solutions that are reasonably acceptable.

      Say a monkey typed 99% of Shakespeare but it was wrong only for 1% of it: next attempt being random, the monkey would likely have 0% Shakespeare! There would be no convergence towards the answer. Even bruteforcing encryption rules out past attempts to avoid repeating itself but a random search does not. Furthermore, say the problem space is random - so then a 99% Shakespeare is light years away from the 100% Shakespeare, then no matter what the process for convergence (ie evolution) it is not going to converge which effectively puts you into the same situation as a random search.

      The monkey typing thing is a silly way to state the obvious and sound good while doing so. "Its POSSIBLE but impractically time consuming" doesn't sound as good. These AI problems are nothing like monkey's typing - they learn and progress towards competency which is totally different! Again, they do this quite quickly since anything near the monkey approach wouldn't get there in our lifetimes (winning the lotto is more likely.)

      Just because it is mindbogglingly complex does not mean it is intelligent...or that it has something we'd normally think of as a "memory" either. Its possible our brains are just pattern matching machines - and since we can only understand the most simple of such things we'll never figure it out (but could build a brain which could figure it out eventually and perhaps our brains are just an extremely fuzzy non-linear pattern match for #42.)

    30. Re:Not really amazing... by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      History of science definitely seems to agree with the "programmed" argument. Other histories ... even more.

      Er...how, exactly?

    31. Re:Not really amazing... by vell0cet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think this is a place where people get distracted when it comes to evolution.

      Evolution IS directed. It's directed by Natural Selection. The direction it moves in is dictated by the environment and the species fitness to it. Because environments can change, directions also change.

      This is a very important distinction because some Intelligent Design proponents (including their top "actual" biologist Michael Behe) believe in Evolution, but not by Natural Selection. They believe in Evolution by Intelligent Design.

    32. Re:Not really amazing... by Kerstyun · · Score: 0

      These are pretty radical examples, but I can see where about three generations of such disparate measures on both ends of the spectrum will have a pretty serious impact on the genetic and educational makeup of the following generations of that civilization.

      Them's plenty heiferluting word's to say moar nigger's!

      --
      Keep the whitehouse white, vote Trump & Palin 2020.
    33. Re:Not really amazing... by vell0cet · · Score: 1

      That's really because of a change in the environment and therefore a change in the fitness of the organism (or population of organisms) for that environment.

      If a nuclear war broke out tomorrow, the human race would no longer be fit for the environment. Instead, the cockroach would be significantly more fit and therefore selected for (or cockroach-like features).

    34. Re:Not really amazing... by aztektum · · Score: 0, Troll
      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    35. Re:Not really amazing... by Rainulf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Speaking of twins, there are actually a lot of discoveries where twins get separated, lived and grew in a completely different environment but end up having the same traits such as habits, ways of thinking, etc.

      One of the most shocking findings is by Bouchard, Oskar and Jack ( http://www.psywww.com/intropsych/ch11_personality/bouchards_twin_research.html ):
      1. Was raised in extremely different cultures; Oskar raised as Catholic; Jack as a Jew.
      2. Both were wearing wire-rimmed glasses and mustaches.
      3. Both sported two-pocket shirts with epaulets
      4. They share idiosyncrasies galore.
      5. They like spicy foods and sweet liqueurs, are absentminded
      6. Have a habit of falling asleep in front of the television.
      7. Think it's funny to sneeze in a crowd of strangers.
      8. Flush the toilet before using it.
      9. Read magazines from back to front. and many many more

      Another shocking one (came from the same source) is the Jim Twins.
      1. James Lewis and James Springer were separated weeks after birth.
      2. Both married and divorced women named Linda.
      3. Both had second marriages with women named Betty.
      4. Both had police training and worked part-time with law enforcement agencies.
      5. Both had childhood pets named Toy.
      6. Their first-born sons were named James Alan Lewis and James Allan Springer.

      Which brings the issue of 'Nature vs Nurture'. Are we really pre-programmed?

    36. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's where evolution kicks in, people born in different generations have different ways of interacting and thinking.

      Are you seriously suggesting that evolutionary effects are what cause different behaviors between generations? I think you inadvertently gave another example of human learning and the question of the degree of genetic influence on behavior is still a wide open question.

      Your point was not adequately made.

    37. Re:Not really amazing... by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Free will is an illusion

      I choose not to read that... :p

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    38. Re:Not really amazing... by ph43thon · · Score: 1

      Well, it's even a little less amazing than you suggest.

      If you read the pdf that the blog post links to ("Evolving neural network controllers for a team of self-organizing robots"), on Page 5 in section "4.5 Fitness Function"... they discuss how they decompose fitness down from simply "Score the most goals" to little component tasks that "ensure a smooth learning process assuming some preliminary knowledge or ideas about the solution."

      They practically lead the algorithms to better solutions along certain paths. The first thing they want the algorithms to learn is that "a good distribution on the field might lead to good overall play." So, now you have a "trainer" telling the players on a team to spread out.

      So.. while their framework looks interesting.. and reading the pdf is good food for thought and helps me think about my own problem domains.. they seem to have restricted the system to prevent any truly odd (yet successful) behaviours from evolving. Thus.. their fitness function encourages successful behaviours that they expect to see.

    39. Re:Not really amazing... by ph43thon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well.. if you read their pdf (linked at the bottom of the blog post), you see that they literally turn the Fitness Function into a trainer that leads teams to the most proper ways to play (see pg5 Section "4.5 Fitness evaluation").

      The first step in the learning process is that the teams should spread out on the field and be relatively evenly distributed.

      Second was, move players closer to the ball.

      Third, kicking the ball was given value.

      Fourth, getting the ball closer to the opponents goal.

      Then finally, the most weight was given to scoring goals.

      So.. they have a great system here.. but it is mainly suggesting that these fitness guidelines eventually lead to behaviours that we understand as playing good defense or whatever.

      To be fair, I'm guessing that maybe Mr. Elmenreich was using the word "trainer" in some literal sense.. They didn't need some trainer for other parts of the system since that was built into the fitness evaluation step.

      What I want to know is: Did they put in a penalty for offsides?

    40. Re:Not really amazing... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      One can take the word 'directed' and infer that there must be an intelligent Director

      One can also take the word "directed" and infer that there must be a "producer" too (and "investors", and a "studio")

      Some people might infer crazy whacked out shit, but in general you dont defend against the dumbest of the dumb.

      The point of "Directed Random Search" is that it does not have the romance bullshit like "evolutionary", "genetic", "population" and other assorted crap that *really* muddies the waters.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    41. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you seriously suggesting that evolutionary effects are what cause different behaviors between generations? I think you inadvertently gave another example of human learning and the question of the degree of genetic influence on behavior is still a wide open question.

      Certainly some behaviors are evolutionarily programmed. For example, atheists always think they're the "radical new idea". They think so for, oh, at least 1500 years now.

      Yet history is filled with fluctuations in the department of religion. Very religious -> very loose -> very religious -> very loose -> very religious -> very loose ... We're now at iteration, oh somewhere between 150 and 200.

      Just ask your granddad how un-religious the 1920's and the 1960's were. Early babyboomers sometimes even remember just how loose 1960's were, and most would argue they were more a-religious than today. Yet the 1970-1980-1990 there certainly was a resurgence of religion.

      Every atheist somehow seems convinced that this time it'll be totally different and religion will die. Yet a reading of history on this point will indicate that what is done today to "eradicate" religion is peanuts. There is no shortage of historical periods where people actively executed people for being religious. And yet they always lost.

      On the other hand, the religious side always lost as well. For a while, at least.

      So it'd probably be fair to say that evolution (the change from one generation to the next) has a rather pronounced pro-religious bias while the structure of our minds and of our thinking once we are born is anti-religious.

      Perhaps it's just the fact that religion somehow makes the same people have (much) more kids. There is one difference between the atheist periods and the religious periods in history : atheist periods have only extremely seldomly lasted more than a single generation, while religious periods have lasted centuries a few times, and regularly last 3-4 generations. Despite what you'd think, the atheist periods have a serious pro-war bias, while the religious periods are more peaceful (or perhaps wars make people peaceful and religious).

      Personally, for the long term, my money's on evolution winning this battle. Perhaps ironically.

      Or perhaps at some point atheists will wise up and G4&*.

    42. Re:Not really amazing... by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      Statistical ML is one of my areas of research, so I'm fairly familiar with the basics. ;-)

      Generally mashing two individuals together is only better than hill-climbing if you have a useful bit-string encoding and crossover operator that results in the mashing operating on nice units. The vast majority of published successful GA results I've seen have quite heroically engineered encodings that include a lot of human domain knowledge. If you just take some random data structure and serialize it to bits directly, and use a crossover operator of "break the bitstring anywhere", you're not likely to get good results.

    43. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      still extremely interesting stuff though.

    44. Re:Not really amazing... by deapbluesea · · Score: 1

      if you have a useful bit-string encoding and crossover operator that results in the mashing operating on nice units. The vast majority of published successful GA results I've seen have quite heroically engineered encodings that include a lot of human domain knowledge. If you just take some random data structure and serialize it to bits directly, and use a crossover operator of "break the bitstring anywhere", you're not likely to get good results.

      In fact, if you have a search space with the optimum values on or near constraint boundaries that can't be allowed in the solution, without the proper crossover and mutation operators as well as a few other tweaks to manage constraints in your fitness function, you very likely will not get a good result.

      --
      Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
    45. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      History of science definitely seems to agree with the "programmed" argument. Other histories ... even more. We are mindless automatons, we just like to think we aren't.

      Neither, we are mindful automatons.

    46. Re:Not really amazing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on what level of perspective you want to look at. If you look at simple tasks and abilities, yes, a human will learn and think (some more than others) over the course of his life. It is evident if you take for example twins that grow in different environments, they get to have different abilities and understanding of the world.

      OTOH if you widen your view and look at how humans interact between each other (i.e. society), how they think (technology, culture), and other things like that they don't really learn anything during their life. That's where evolution kicks in, people born in different generations have different ways of interacting and thinking. Some are behind their times while others are ahead which I see as a normal mutation, if you will, that can be a succesful one or a failing one. But even revolutionary people become conservatives after a certain age. That's why people die, that's how society evolves.

      Yes, it's not all black and white like I made it sound, some things in the first category are inate and some in the secondary can still be modified by experience but I think my point was properly made.

      I think it has to do with our society as a whole learning and adapting and not so much evolving new ways of interacting and thinking. If it is evolution then we're just like the robots in the article - what we are is programmed from birth in entirety - and we don't actually have individual potential and in that case you pretty much deprive me of my reasons for living... thanks you insensitive clod!

    47. Re:Not really amazing... by Dexter+Herbivore · · Score: 1

      Makes one wonder just how one-track the human mind is. .

      I know how one track MY mind is... think I'll browse some pr0n now.

    48. Re:Not really amazing... by hawk · · Score: 2, Funny

      >"amazing considering that there was no trainer in the system;"

      Execution of the less-skilled makes up for a lot of training . . .

    49. Re:Not really amazing... by ukyoCE · · Score: 1

      It's easy to compare the evolutionary algorithm to a completely random algorithm. If the evolutionary algorithm finds the best pattern significantly faster than the random algorithm, that is a meaningful and interesting result.

      You may as well have said that Shakespeare's works (or Einstein's) aren't amazing because enough monkeys would eventually achieve the same result by banging on typewriters.

    50. Re:Not really amazing... by xenapan · · Score: 1

      So two coincidences. Thats a great result set. Now go look at the studies where twins grow up together in the same situations and turn out nothing alike.

      --
      insert funny sig here
    51. Re:Not really amazing... by haxney · · Score: 1

      I like and agree with the bulk of your post, but took issue to this part:

      That's where evolution kicks in, people born in different generations have different ways of interacting and thinking. Some are behind their times while others are ahead which I see as a normal mutation, if you will, that can be a succesful one or a failing one.

      That's not an example of evolution at work; no meaningful differences are expected between one or two generations. That is much more an example of social and cultural norms learned early in life remaining relatively static later into life. As the social or cultural norm changes, the next generation learns a slightly different set of norms. No meaningful genetic difference exists between that small a number of generations.

      Differences attributable to evolution would only become apparent in a larger population over the course of tens, hundreds, or thousands of generations.

      Otherwise, I really like your post.

  7. Hooligans by qpawn · · Score: 2, Funny

    The study also found that the artificial fans of the losing team started to riot on their own.

  8. Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Finally some news out of my school that isn't sports-, riot-, or rioting-about-sports related.

    1. Re:Finally by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that soccer is no sports?

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  9. What's the news? by synoniem · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When you program some evolutionary theory in your digital world and your digital world is developing some evolutionary lifeform that is news?

    1. Re:What's the news? by ChrisMounce · · Score: 2

      Someone mod parent up. This reminds me of the automated mathematician: if it's given rules that encourage discovering the Goldbach conjecture, and you spend enough time tuning it, then it's no surprise that it will eventually discover the Goldbach conjecture. Some debate whether AM actually discovered anything, or just found the stuff it was designed to discover (seeing as it stopped finding interesting conjectures after rediscovering all the known ones). But that's getting into philosophy.

    2. Re:What's the news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you program some evolutionary theory in your digital world and your digital world is developing some evolutionary lifeform that is news?

      Because normally with these things, nothing happens.

    3. Re:What's the news? by pyalot · · Score: 1

      If nothing happens, whoever implemented it sucks.

    4. Re:What's the news? by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You don't have to go into philosophy to get these. Theoretical mathematics will help you out here.

      Suppose you had a "perfect" learner. One that tries every theoretically possible analytical technique. And then it manages to surprise you : it discovers existing mathematics, and perhaps a bit more, but nothing truly remarkable. That would simply be the result of a mathematical property of the "mathematical space" (the set of all possible mathematical knowledge, of, say all Godel-sentences) : that would simply mean that space is chaotic.

      There are already known properties of the total mathematical search space : for one, it's not necessarily consistent (and thus not necessarily correct). It is known to be large: there is more mathematics than there are atoms in the universe (but it remains an open question if the subset of correct mathematical theory is infinite. Theoretically it could even be the empty set - that mathematics is fundamentally flawed).

    5. Re:What's the news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Life in general is not much different. The environment/nature/the universe sets rules that encourage the creation of lifeforms, encourages them to replicate and improve their chance of survival. It's no surprise that life evolves and creatures develop memories, intelligence etc. The whole system is setup in a way that it is bound to happen.
      Whether evolution in nature or evolution on a computer, the underlying principles at work are similar.

      The main difference between nature and your goldbach conjecture example is imho that the complexity of the system 'nature' is much higher and the goal 'surving' is much broader and that this game in nature doesn't stop, since each step in evolution and some random factors constantly change the environment, in which the next generation is trying out new/modified patterns to survive.
      One could say it's all information endlessly playing with itself and that certain patterns emerge that stay over time is simply the consequence that can be explained with math.

    6. Re:What's the news? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      The subset of correct mathematical theory cannot be the empty set, because if it were empty, set theory (which clearly is part of mathematics) would be flawed, and therefore there wouldn't be a well defined notion of empty set, making the statement "the subset of correct mathematical theory is the empty set" meaningless. On the other hand, logic also is part of mathematics, and therefore my argument may not hold in that case.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    7. Re:What's the news? by selven · · Score: 1

      This program was not designed to discover passing, defending and scoring. It was designed to win at soccer. The program on its own realized that passing, defending and scoring are good strategies for winning at soccer. The rules of the simulation do encourage this behavior, but they were not designed to - the fact that the rules of the simulation create this result is a perfectly valid discovery, even though it's a discovery that humans made thousand of years ago.

    8. Re:What's the news? by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      Just because a proof is invalid doesn't mean that something is wrong. There are lots of incorrect proofs of things. There are even many things that are thought to be true, but we have no clue how to prove them.

      So the set of correct mathematical knowledge can be the empty set, and it could be the case that there is no single theoretically valid proof. Of course this would make the correct mathematical knowledge to be the "empty set" as in :

      { { } }

      and not the set

      { }

      But is that truly so very different ?

      Of course, set theory is known to be consistent (not correct) as long as you do not postulate the existence of any non-empty collection. So there is a notation problem in here somewhere. Hmmm, it's been a while since I've had set theory.

    9. Re:What's the news? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, the post I answered to considered the situation that all of mathematics is wrong. If all of mathematics is wrong, then of course also the definition of sets, and even the definition of the empty set (because if that definition isn't wrong, there's something in mathematics which isn't wrong, in contradiction to the assumption). And therefore in that case the sentence "the correct mathematical knowledge is the empty set" would not make sense, because the empty set already would be ill defined.

      Of course, that argument relies on the use of logic, which itself is part of mathematics, and therefore also would be wrong. Therefore my last sentence that this very situation might invalidate my argument.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    10. Re:What's the news? by JeffClune · · Score: 1

      Hello- I posted this in reply to another comment, but it is relevant to this thread as well. The HyperNEAT technology is actually cutting-edge, and represents a major innovation versus previous neuroevolution techniques. One major thing that differentiates it from previous evolution of ANNs is that HyperNEAT is based on concepts from developmental biology. Specifically, it evolves compositions of geometric coordinate frames that are abstractions of the diffusing chemical gradients of developing embryos. These concepts enable the evolution of regular patterns in neural wiring that have not been seen before in neuroevolution (see, for example, the pictures of evolved brains in my dissertation, which is available at my website: www.msu.edu/~jclune). The ability to generate regular wiring patterns enables evolution to search in a small search space of short genomes, yet produce functioning brains with millions or more connections. Of course, this article was written for the popular press, so they did not have the ability to get to this level of detail. For those of you that already know a lot about evolutionary computations and neural nets, I encourage you to read the publications about HyperNEAT, either at my website or at those of other researchers using the technology (e.g., the University of Central Florida). I think you'll then be impressed by the breakthroughs in HyperNEAT. You are correct that evolutionary computation itself has been around for a while. But the science described in this article is pushing that technology further. Best, Jeff Clune Postdoctoral Scientist Michigan State University

  10. Too late to call this "evolutionary": by carlhaagen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A bit more than 15 years ago I saw a documentary on Discovery Channel featuring identical work being made by a brittish scientist / computer programmer. His software spawned simple "lifeforms" made up by basic 2D and 3D geometrical objects - cubes, cylinders, flat triangles etc., - that were then trying to evolve methods of how to most efficiently move and travel in the simulated environment they were put in - sometimes an airy environment with ground underneath them, and gravity, and sometimes an "ocean" in which the "lifeforms" swam. Minute after minute the "lifeforms" jiggered and bounced around like broken machinery, but slowly developing a method for moving and navigating that was the most efficient for their particular shape. He spawned caterpillar-like animals made up from chains of cubes, that slowly learned how to wriggle and crawl just like catterpillars and snakes do. He spawned randomized "freaks" that learned that sometimes managed to learn how to walk with their disfiguring, and sometimes learning that the only way was to throw some bodypart around to pull themselves forward. He spawned biped animals that slowly learned how to jump to move forward, an triped animals that learned how to skip from one leg to the other, to the third. He spawned lifeforms in a watery environment that learned how to rhythmically oscillate their bodyparts to create propulsion in order to swim forward and turn around. To me, this was just as impressive, if not more, than the featured story. As a curious detail to it all, the programmer developed his software in BlitzBasic, running on a heavily accelerated Amiga 1200.

    1. Re:Too late to call this "evolutionary": by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too late to call this "evolutionary"

      Educate yourself.

    2. Re:Too late to call this "evolutionary": by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there is a really similar sim environment called "Breve" you can evolve behavior and locomotion etc. it's super fun. you can get it at http://www.spiderland.org/
      -Simon

    3. Re:Too late to call this "evolutionary": by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. And I have a girlfriend who lives in Niagara Falls, so you wouldn't know her, but she's really great.

      How about some evidence besides "15 years ago", "British", and "Discovery Channel"?

    4. Re:Too late to call this "evolutionary": by whatajoke · · Score: 3, Informative

      Was it Karl Sims? Specifically this work

  11. Err... what's the news? by pyalot · · Score: 2

    We've been applying genetic algorithms with ANNs for quite a while now, quite often also making groups of them cooperate. yawn?

    1. Re:Err... what's the news? by lalena · · Score: 3, Informative

      I read the article wanting to know how the Avida developed memory. Basically, the programmer included an instruction that said "Do what you did last time" It is not evolution if the programmer hands them the ability. Also, when the goal stays in the same location every time, your robots can develop "memory" through the program itself. Ex: To go 2 up & 3 left -> Forward, Forward, Turn Left, Forward, Forward, Forward. No intelligence in the search pattern. This is simply memorizing the location of the goal. I would not call this memory.

      I am very interested in this subject and get excited every time Slashdot posts a new story in this topic, but I never see any real advances vs. what I was doing in school 20 years ago. This doesn't mean advances aren't being made, but I think they are now at the level where they don't make simple easy-read stories. Real robots (not simulated ones) getting form point A to B (not just wanting to go from A to B) over rough terrain without help (mars rovers) is much more complicated and a required advance to put this technology into a real application. MIT, NASA, National Labs always seem to have interesting projects going on.

      We celebrate these simple outdated advances in AI when we have hundreds of programs out there now capable of playing World of Warcraft without help simply to collect virtual gold to sell for cash.

      Another reason I hate these articles is that they don't include any real specifics. You could learn more reading Wikipeida on GA, GP, ANN... It was a video of a Koza project that got me really interested in this topic. Why don't people include something like this in the article. A couple of years ago, I decided to rewrite one of my old projects so that people could easily run it online - Ant Simulator. Watching the system quickly learn or solve a problem is much more satisfying than reading an article written by someone that doesn't actually understand the field.

    2. Re:Err... what's the news? by mdda · · Score: 2, Informative

      Memory for Genetic Programming was an interesting topic back in 1995 too... And the first Koza book was an inspiration.

      One way to test out 'memory' in an experimental was is to give the individuals some 'memory cells' (or internal preserved state) to work with, and then A/B test some of the good individuals vs. the same individuals with noise added to the memory cells. In that way, one can get a handle on whether/how they're really making use of the memory. Just like adding junk code into a buggy program to see what's actually getting executed.

      One of the problems for the Genetic Algorithm/Programming people is that this stuff simply *works too well*. It's difficult to test hypotheses because the evolutionary bit will simply 'work around' you own bad coding decisions : so often experimental results are 'this was slightly worse at first, but then something really interesting started to happen'. Designing a really clean experiment is difficult : these populations are devious...

    3. Re:Err... what's the news? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If you've seen any of the truly massive demos done in Conway's game of life you will rapidly see that actually modeling a physical mechanism for memory based on simple principles is going to take a metric assload of computing time. Actually, I think the actual value is somewhere between an assload and a fuckton. At this point it seems more like a useful separate experiment.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Err... what's the news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Conway's game of Life is very volatile. Cells die really easily; nothing moves without massive deaths and births; structures (patterns) only interact successfully with precision timing and spacing, which gets much worse anytime you add another structure. It's just very fragile. I don't think it's the best example of "what is possible" with genetic algorithms.

    5. Re:Err... what's the news? by prider · · Score: 1

      > This is simply memorizing the location of the goal. I would not call this memory. ... Uhm...

    6. Re:Err... what's the news? by JeffClune · · Score: 1

      Hello- The HyperNEAT technology is actually cutting-edge, and represents a major innovation versus previous neuroevolution techniques. One major thing that differentiates it from previous evolution of ANNs is that HyperNEAT is based on concepts from developmental biology. Specifically, it evolves compositions of geometric coordinate frames that are abstractions of the diffusing chemical gradients of developing embryos. These concepts enable the evolution of regular patterns in neural wiring that have not been seen before in neuroevolution (see, for example, the pictures of evolved brains in my dissertation, which is available at my website: www.msu.edu/~jclune). The ability to generate regular wiring patterns enables evolution to search in a small search space of short genomes, yet produce functioning brains with millions or more connections. Of course, this article was written for the popular press, so they did not have the ability to get to this level of detail. For those of you that already know a lot about evolutionary computations and neural nets, I encourage you to read the publications about HyperNEAT, either at my website or at those of other researchers using the technology (e.g., the University of Central Florida). I think you'll then be impressed by the breakthroughs in HyperNEAT. You are correct that evolutionary computation itself has been around for a while. But the science described in this article is pushing that technology further. Best, Jeff Clune Postdoctoral Scientist Michigan State University

    7. Re:Err... what's the news? by JeffClune · · Score: 1

      Hello. What makes the HyperNEAT approach a breakthrough is its use of a generative encoding based on concepts from developmental biology. Please see my comment one ply deeper in this thread for more information. I encourage you to check out the HyperNEAT publications in order to see why this is very powerful and new technology. Best, Jeff Clune, Postdoctoral Scientist, Michigan State University

    8. Re:Err... what's the news? by benhattman · · Score: 1

      I read the article wanting to know how the Avida developed memory. Basically, the programmer included an instruction that said "Do what you did last time" It is not evolution if the programmer hands them the ability.

      While it would be more impressive for the program to develop the "do it again" function on its own, it's not quite fair to dismiss this either. If I understood the article correctly, they provided the do it again instruction, but the program had to both learn about the instruction, and develop the knowledge of when to apply it.

      Imagine an ant in the real world. Their algorithm is usually something along the lines of - "is an ant bringing food back from that direction? then I should go where they came from and see if I can find some food too". If I read the article correctly, what they really did was teach the avida's to do the following - "did I just find food? then go further in that direction". They then made the path to the food curvy, so always heading "north" wouldn't work, it really had to know that the last time it went a certain way it found food, so now it should prefer doing that again.

      I would imagine that the next step might be removing the "do it again" instruction and seeing if avida's can learn that for themselves.

  12. Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the late 1980s, ecologist Thomas Ray, who is now at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, got wind of Core Wars and saw its potential for studying evolution. He built Tierra, a computerised world populated by self-replicating programs that could make errors as they reproduced.

    When the cloned programs filled the memory space available to them, they began overwriting existing copies. Then things changed. The original program was 80 lines long, but after some time Ray saw a 79-line program appear, then a 78-line one. Gradually, to fit more copies in, the programs trimmed their own code, one line at a time. Then one emerged that was 45 lines long. It had eliminated its copy instruction, and replaced it with a shorter piece of code that allowed it to hijack the copying code of a longer program. Digital evolvers had arrived, and a virus was born.

    Avida is Tierra's rightful successor. Its environment can be made far more complex, it allows for more flexibility and more analysis, and - crucially - its organisms can't use each other's code. That makes them more life-like than the inhabitants of Tierra.

    Actually, organisms using each others code sounds way more like our world than ones that can't leech off each other. They already pointed out viruses, and plenty of species exist today that need other species to continue to survive.. in fact pretty much all animals need to eat other lifeforms because we can't draw energy from the sun directly.

    --
    which is totally what she said
    1. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by PietjeJantje · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Organisms can perfectly draw energy directly from the sun, and animals and humans still do (such as vitamine D production). The point is it wouldn't be energy efficient for a moving organism. A tree can grow huge, but a moving tree (the animal) couldn't. Surface, size, gravity, all that. Then it's much more efficient to get the contained energy from other organisms by eating them.

    2. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Organisms can perfectly draw energy directly from the sun, and animals and humans still do (such as vitamin D production).

            As a physician I find your statement ludicrous. While there is a photochemical step in the synthesis of vitamin D it's hardly fair calling a double bond being split by a photon as "drawing energy" from the sun. For that matter you could say that the dimerization of thymine in DNA by sunlight (which produces the genetic damage observed when a person is exposed to UV radiation) is another way we "draw energy" from the sun.

            Humans do not produce ATP from sunlight. Period.

            And I would agree with OP - all organisms, including plants, are directly dependent on other organisms. Without nitrogen fixing bacteria to fix nitrogen for the plants, and without decomposing bacteria to release minerals again into the soil, even plants would not exist. While the organisms that are set up to harvest sunlight directly from photosynthesis are the biggest input into the food chain, they can't live without the rest of it, especially the lowly decomposers. We're now all totally dependent on one another.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    3. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by dollarwizard · · Score: 1

      in fact pretty much all animals need to eat other lifeforms because we can't draw energy from the sun directly.

      What about algae? What about plants?

    4. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 1

      They're not "animals".

      --
      which is totally what she said
    5. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 1

      That was only part of what you said, the rest of which was bollocks, which is all he was pointing out.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    6. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Actually, it almost seems like the beginnings of gender differences in the code. In a way, men hijack the reproductive systems of women in order copy themselves, once men insert their "genetic code" into the woman she pretty much handles the whole reproduction thing from thereon out. With this experiment you've got a newer program that is dependent on the reproductive abilities of others in its species. It's become more efficient by using a truncated version of its "genetic" code. This kind of matches up with XX and XY chromosomes with males and females. It'll be interesting if the 45 line program propagates and the original code adapts to this evolution by shedding lines of code of it's own to take advantage of this.

    7. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Legion303 · · Score: 1

      We should consult the school boards of Kansas and Texas, and possibly Oklahoma, before jumping to any rash conclusions...

      Or not.

    8. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by PietjeJantje · · Score: 1

      Vitamin D from sunlight is bullocks? Reptiles warming up by sunlight is bullocks? Please, he was just waving his feathers.

    9. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      All I have to say about humans drawing energy directly from the sun is that it's foggy this morning, and I sure would like to absorb a little more sunlight...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by khallow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While there is a photochemical step in the synthesis of vitamin D it's hardly fair calling a double bond being split by a photon as "drawing energy" from the sun.

      Is the step endothermic or not? If it is endothermic, then the reaction is indeed drawing energy (no "scare quotes" needed) from the Sun. Given that UV radiation (which is the highest energy photons coming from solar radiation) is apparently needed as part of the process, this indicates to me that the critical step is highly endothermic.

    11. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by YaHooL · · Score: 1

      Actually, organisms using each others code sounds way more like our world than ones that can't leech off each other. They already pointed out viruses, and plenty of species exist today that need other species to continue to survive.. in fact pretty much all animals need to eat other lifeforms because we can't draw energy from the sun directly.

      Moreover, If the Endosymbiotic theory is correct, then our cells have statically-linked external code.

    12. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you take away the sun, lack of vitamin D is likely the least of your problems.

    13. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chemical reactions caused by UV aren't life, and even rocks get warmed by the sun.

    14. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      this indicates to me that the critical step is highly endothermic.

            It's a reversible reaction. Sunlight favors the forward reaction and that's all. It does happen on its own. And do you know, Vitamin D is good for you and there are pathologies involved in Vitamin D deficiency, but you could probably survive your entire life in a cave out of sunlight. It's not easy to die from rickets - though there certainly would be quality of life issues.

            Just how far are you prepared to split hairs? While you may have an indication of the energies involved in these reactions, you in fact are merely speculating. I have studied it. When the reverse reaction happens, would you say that humans are giving energy back to the sun? After all, conservation of energy and all that. Please note the lack of quotes in the above post.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    15. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humans do not produce ATP from sunlight. Period.

      Well, not yet, anyway.

    16. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Vitamin D is not an energy source, which is what you said here:

      Organisms can perfectly draw energy directly from the sun, and animals and humans still do (such as vitamine D production).

      That's total bullshit, and shows incredible ignorance about how the body works. Not one joule of energy an animal's body uses comes from the sun. We use the sun in vitamin D production because a proton can split the molecule, and it's cheaper to let the sun do it than to do it ourselves.

      So the sun does save a little energy, but it does not, in any way, shape, or form, produce energy for animals to use. The only way animals get energy from the sun is by eating plants, or eating animals that eat plans. It is an indirect transfer of energy, not a direct one.

      Reptiles don't get their energy from the sun. If left to bake out in the sand they would die in short order - they die when their fat reserves, obtained by consuming other animals, run out - not when the sun goes down. The sun adds absolutely nothing to their life-sustaining processes. Again, what it does is save energy by bringing the body up to to a good temperature to facilitate the body's chemical reactions - which are the source of all the energy reptiles use.

      In both cases, the sun is acting as a facilitator, it is not acting as a source of life-sustaining energy. Claiming the sun is a direct source of energy for reptiles is like claiming a room's ambient heat is a source of energy for a chemical reaction. It's stupid. The reaction may occur more easily at a given temperature, but you can't say it's adding energy to the reaction. The energy all animals use comes from disassembling the ATP molecule in the cells. It's a chemical process, the fuel for which comes from other animals or plants. Period.

      Note that plants also use ATP, but they create it from sugar generated via photosynthesis. Animals either get their sugar directly from plants, or they create it from the tissue of other animals. No photosynthesis involved.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    17. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by PietjeJantje · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Jesus, you are sad. You totally missed the point, and go mad about my little sidepoint, claiming I say the sun is a direct source of energy, while my point was WE DON'T because it wouldn't be afficient. Read, idiot, read..

    18. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by PietjeJantje · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Meh, only idiot teenagers point out typing errors to foreigners like they are stupid.

    19. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot is sliding ever further. The guy said the sun is important to us but we do not produce energy from sunlight like you suggest, because that wouldn't work. Good point. Then you turn that into that he said humans produce ATP from sunlight, and forgot about the rest, probably because reading further is too much trouble. Then that is modded "insightful". This ain't pretty.

    20. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by _Knots · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure where the claim about "can't use each other's code" comes from. Perhaps a subtle misunderstanding. While Avida does keep each virtual machine fully isolated from the others, Avida _does_ have explicit support for parasitic behaviors, in the form of code injection into neighboring organisms.

      --
      Anarchy$ dd if=/dev/random of=~/.signature bs=120 count=1
    21. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 1

      Perhaps if you were a little more polite, people would be less inclined to point out your mistakes.

      The first and last things people say are the bits that are more likely to be noticed, it's called the "Primacy Effect" and the "Recency Effect". You started off by incorrectly saying Vitamin D production is "drawing energy directly from the sun". This is what set the tone of your post, and it is incorrect, hence why people mentally discard the rest of what you said.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    22. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by PietjeJantje · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Perhaps if you would be less of an asshole, people would be inclined to forgive your lack of reading comprehension while trying to look smug.

    23. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 1

      I'm not trying to look smug, I'm trying to give helpful advice that may actually result in you being able to maintain healthy relationships with other humans.

      Try reading your last few posts before calling anyone else an asshole..

      --
      which is totally what she said
    24. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by PietjeJantje · · Score: 1

      Me too, it was just trying to give helpful advice that may actually result in you being able to maintain healthy relationships with other humans. Try reading your last few posts before being so impolite to others. Perhaps you just like to argue.

    25. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Okay, how about we try a more objective approach since you can't judge this sensibly for yourself.. 1/3rd of your comments have been moderated down, often as "flamebait". I clicked on one of them and it starts with "shut up".

      Yeah, it's clearly me that "likes to argue" here *rolleyes* I'm not going to waste any more time trying to help you understand why people think you're a jerk.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    26. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by PietjeJantje · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Argumentum ad populum.

      Which makes you a pitiful loser. Why don't you shut up if you have nothing to contribute.

    27. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by sFurbo · · Score: 1

      Given that UV radiation (which is the highest energy photons coming from solar radiation) is apparently needed as part of the process, this indicates to me that the critical step is highly endothermic.

      It doesn't indicate that. The reason the reaction needs light is that it is thermally forbidden, as the molecular orbitals doesn't line up in the right way (they are out of phase). The reason UV-light is needed is that the absorbance band of the molecule is in the UV. The opposite reaction also requires light (though probably of a longer wavelength, as it has 3 conjugated double bonds in stead of 2), and only one of the reactions can be endothermic.

      The reaction is probably endothermic, as it exchanges 2 C-C bonds for 1 C=C bond, which have slightly lower bond energy, but this have nothing to do with the light needed.

    28. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 1

      Argumentum ad populum.

      If everyone else thinks you're a jerk, chances are pretty good that you're a jerk - no matter your opinion of yourself.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    29. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by PietjeJantje · · Score: 1

      Wow are you still here? I'd define a jerk as someone who can only reply with logical fallacies and such. None of your replies are about the original discussion. How sad. Chances are 100% you are a complete and total turd.

    30. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 1

      You are hilarious :p Here's another chance to tell us all how great you are and how everyone in the world apart from you is wrong, go ahead! :)

      --
      which is totally what she said
    31. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by PietjeJantje · · Score: 1

      You really like to have the last word, don't you? Perhaps you should visit a shrink. He will tell you what that means (it ain't pretty).

    32. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by khallow · · Score: 1

      It's a reversible reaction.

      Reversible says nothing about whether it is endothermic or not. Instead, reversible means that little energy is lost when you revert to the original state. Highly endothermic processes can be reversible (like lifting a book to a higher shelf) which processes which aren't very endothermic can be irreversible (like mixing together otherwise identical sand that has been dyed two different colors).

      Just how far are you prepared to split hairs? While you may have an indication of the energies involved in these reactions, you in fact are merely speculating. I have studied it. When the reverse reaction happens, would you say that humans are giving energy back to the sun? After all, conservation of energy and all that. Please note the lack of quotes in the above post.

      If you have studied the energies involved, then you can at least answer whether the reaction in question is endothermic or not. Second, why would I claim that energy is given back to the Sun? It either becomes waste heat or is used in some metabolic process.

      Obviously, I'm willing to go pretty fair in splitting hairs since I have. It's worth noting here that your complaints could equally be applied to chlorophyll photosynthesis. I imagine that the light sensitive parts of that reaction chain are just as reversible. Further, it's worth noting here that evolution might eventually come up with an animal (maybe something similar to a barnacle or other immobile animal), that uses a variation of the vitamin D reaction to live off of sunlight. That may well be the ancient pathway to chlorophyll photosynthesis, namely, that it started as a convenient way to generate some necessary molecule for a proto-algae using visible light photons. Later, a pathway to ATP and NADPH production might have come about, making plants possible.

      We also need to keep in mind that there probably is some sort of evolutionary advantage to the current means of producing vitamin D compounds (simply as a consequence of it being used). Perhaps some combination of lowered energy requirement, enhanced UV protection, generating internally a valuable class of molecules rather than from diet, and/or reducing metabolic complexity, that leads to a net survival/reproductive advantage over other approaches (such as getting vitamin D from diet or not requiring so much vitamin D in the body).

      Throughout this argument, I've ignored the most obvious way that animals draw energy from the Sun. Namely, the warmth of solar radiation is a valuable contribution to the energy budget of many animals.

    33. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by somersault · · Score: 1

      Sure I do, but clearly so do you! Go on, have another try.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    34. Re:Addendum to first article is pretty good by PietjeJantje · · Score: 1

      Point proven. Here, you will prove my point again. Good luck with your mental disabilities.

  13. True fooball (soccer) behaviour by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Funny

    The robots need to become spoiled, overpaid millionaires, who refuse to train (France). Brag a lot (England) that their opponent is a bunch of "boys" (Germany), who are afraid of them. Then take a 4-1 shellacking from the "boys." And despite being the defending champions, and having a world class league in their country, bow out early. Because all of the players in their first class league are from South America (Italy), and the they have no good domestic players.

    Robots with vuvuzelas? No, thanks. My next nightmare.

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    1. Re:True fooball (soccer) behaviour by mrsquid0 · · Score: 0

      I , for one, welcome our new robotic vuvuzela-playing overlords.

      --
      Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
  14. Religion? by vlm · · Score: 1

    Eh, they can play soccer, not too impressive. Check back when they evolve their own religion, that would be impressive.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Religion? by sincewhen · · Score: 2, Funny

      Where were you during the World Cup?

      Soccer is a religion!

      --
      -- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
    2. Re:Religion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can calculate a fourier transform in n*log(n) time? YAWN! Wake me up when your algo has a GUI that exports the results to Excel.

    3. Re:Religion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The robots are pretty convinced that the game will end eventually, and that they shall be judged upon that the end of the game, by the big unseen judge that can observe them yet is not a part of their universe. So yeah, I suppose they do believe.

  15. Anything new here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    This looks like something that I could have read in 1982.

    the self-organizing differentiated behavior of the players emerged solely out of the evolutionary process.

    This is the problem with AI research. The notion that we can bootstrap life by mimicking evolution is crazy. Computers are getting faster, but billions of years multiplied by billions of neurons per organism they can't do" Nobody gives a shit what their sex robot "emerged solely out of," they just want to fuck it.

    1. Re:Anything new here? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      This is the problem with AI research. The notion that we can bootstrap life by mimicking evolution is crazy. Computers are getting faster, but billions of years multiplied by billions of neurons per organism they can't do" Nobody gives a shit what their sex robot "emerged solely out of," they just want to fuck it.

      Of course. Which is why we are evolving algorithms to do things we find desirable (in this case, playing robot soccer) using components that already implement the desireable trains. Much like we have been selecting cows that produce more milk or meat over, I should think, several hundreds of (cow) generations. It's "human-guided evolution", if you will.

      Is there a problem with AI here? I don't see it. You could, of course, implement a soccer-playing algorithm yourself. But AI lets you come up with better soccer-playing programs without having to invent and implement a better algorithm or a better set of parameters yourself.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    2. Re:Anything new here? by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? This is an amazing breakthrough! We've been waiting 15 years for this, for the past 50 years.

  16. AI or Bio? by sammysheep · · Score: 2

    I'm always confused if these discoveries are supposed to show that we'll someday have sentient robots that will rule the world a la every sci-fi for the past decade or if they are trying to model biological evolution in a meaningful way. Personally, I hope the sentient robot thing is NP-complete. :P

    For modeling biological evolution, any in silico organism model needs to incorporate the fact that most mutations are "nearly neutral" (some might say slightly deleterious) with respect to the scoring algorithm (selection) while the next largest group is deleterious, and only a small fraction are beneficial. Not every "bit" (base) in a genome has the same value, and certainly that value is related to its context. In the genome mutation can strike anywhere although some places may be lethal so it will never be expressed in a breeding organism. In AI there may be restrictions on the parameters that can change, but in the genome mutations can produce some pretty nasty defects. It's actually the relative badness of those defects which gives selection the power to weed out unfit individuals before the defect can become fixed. However, in biological evolution, defects can and do become fixed, either being linked with good traits or because there isn't sufficient selection power to get rid of them. Thus, after many many generations of "optimizing" the robots should also manifest situations where they do "stupid" things routinely because the "good" things they do are "linked" to the bad things they do on the coding level.

  17. Intelligent Design tag? by mangu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I would tag this as "Intelligent Design".

    This is a very simple demonstration that something can evolve from simple beginnings, if the creator was intelligent enough.

    A not-so-intelligent designer, OTOH, would probably prefer to create its beings in their final state because it takes more effort to create a system capable of evolution.

    1. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It's imho an illogical assumption that the universe needed an intelligent creator, but that the intelligent creator didn't need one himself. If you say the creator created himself, then I can also the universe created itself.

      I think intelligence is an emerging trait. A system that I set up to evolve could come up with something that is more intelligent than me in the end. The rules are usually simple, they imply no limits that tell the system not to evolve beyond the intelligence of the creator.

      So coming back to what I said first, the universe itself could be rather dumb and generated all the intelligence that we see, but assuming there was an intelligent creator leads to even more contradictions than assuming there was none.

    2. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by mdda · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually no. The evolution mechanism is really robust.

      Basically, if you have a bunch of random individuals, and the 'evolution' just mashes a bunch of the better ones together, you'll see the increase in fitness occurring. But it's not just a small effect : almost any crazy 'mashing together' method works, and the adaptation will spark off unbelievably quickly.

      I know this because I did this for my PhD back in 1995. I had a choice then between going the Neural Net path, and playing around with the Genetic Algorithm/Genetic Programming stuff. Simple experiments proved that making NNs 'do the right thing' was a fairly tricky process of getting things set up right (and your formulae had to be right, etc : a fairly sensitive procedure). But the Genetic stuff was amazingly robust : almost any crazy method of crushing individuals together will produce remarkable innovation and learning (on a population basis).

      But don't take my word for it, write a small piece of code yourself. The literature makes it sound like a more exact science that it needs to be. As I said, almost any 'mashup' method will work - the 'evolution thing' will simply find a way to 'protect' the important stuff.

      So while this looks like 'old news' in some ways, I'm glad that they've got an eye-opening application : More people should know how much the computer guys can add to the biological evolution debate.

    3. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by mangu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's imho an illogical assumption that the universe needed an intelligent creator, but that the intelligent creator didn't need one himself

      I agree, but that's a second step in the argument. If they first demonstrate that intelligence can emerge from a non-intelligent system, then it's an obvious corollary that intelligence wasn't necessary to create the non-intelligent system in the first place.

    4. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It demonstrates that intelligent design and evolution are compatible as a description of how life can evolve.

      Theistic evolution is probably going to be the next big push to get God onto the science curriculum. But they will probably refer to it as "guided evolution" or something.

    5. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by Vesuvias · · Score: 1

      It's imho an illogical assumption that the universe needed an intelligent creator, but that the intelligent creator didn't need one himself. If you say the creator created himself, then I can also the universe created itself.

      Maybe but I think your limiting your imagination here in your thought experiment. String theory postulates that there could be as many 10^500 other distinctive universes (branes?) out there beyond ours. The physical rules in those universes maybe even more friendly to the emergence of intelligent life than ours. Perhaps an intelligent creator originated in one of those universes. Though our constants seem to be rather uniquely and curiously tuned to support life here in this universe anyway.

      I think intelligence is an emerging trait. A system that I set up to evolve could come up with something that is more intelligent than me in the end. The rules are usually simple, they imply no limits that tell the system not to evolve beyond the intelligence of the creator.

      So coming back to what I said first, the universe itself could be rather dumb and generated all the intelligence that we see, but assuming there was an intelligent creator leads to even more contradictions than assuming there was none.

      An intelligent creator may seem less likely in your opinion but I don't think it has more contradictions inherently. Remember in the end we all extrapolating from ONE POINT of data when we talk about intelligence. Life as far as we can prove only evolved on this planet. High order self aware intelligence as far as we know has only evolved in us. It is exceedingly difficult to say what exactly the odds are for such things.

    6. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by VortexCortex · · Score: 2, Interesting

      High order self aware intelligence as far as we know has only evolved in us. It is exceedingly difficult to say what exactly the odds are for such things.

      It could be pretty damn common then, eh?

      If puddles could think:
      Oh my! Just look at how perfectly I fit into this hole in the ground! This must be proof that an intelligent creator created the hole to suit me.

      As intelligent beings we frequently imagine other things to have our traits. Personifying the very physics that govern the universe creates a god where none exists or is required.

      Just because you have intelligence doesn't mean that plants and rocks and physics do too.

      It is true that humans have used evolutionary principals to change wolves into the many breeds of dogs we have today,
      but using a principal intelligently doesn't mean that it must always have been used intelligently.
      In fact it proves that unintelligent processes (such as a change in climate or food sources) also affect evolution (as verified by the fossil record).

      Having intelligence arise in a system based upon evolution while providing our own substitute for natural selection doesn't prove that an intelligent creator exists;
      It proves that our own intelligence has likely evolved due to unintelligent phenomena such as evolution due to competition and natural selection.

    7. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by sco08y · · Score: 5, Funny

      I would tag this as "more proof soccer sucks." Really, soccer aficionados claim they see all these advanced movements, and that someone really does play better.

      But, let's face it, they don't. They're just a bunch of people running around randomly, and occasionally someone scores by pure chance. That's why the games are always 0-0.

      Seeing good soccer in random movement is part of the faith, much like astrologers see divine constellations in the random pattern of stars in the night.

    8. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Penguin evolution is a fib!

      And the earth isn't round, either. Nope, it's shaped like a burrito! :)

    9. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by node+3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I would tag this as "Intelligent Design".

      The whole point is that this wasn't designed. Only the initial conditions were designed, and the designers then let them go on their own without any knowledge or comprehension as to how they would progress. The bullshit that is known as "Intelligent Design" is based on the assumption that the end results are too complex to have arisen on their own. In this case, the ability for the soccer players to know how to pass and such would be seen as "too complex" to have arisen by trial and error from a basic initial condition, but this is exactly what happened.

      This was not intelligent design. It is, in fact, the very definition of evolution. It's also worth noting that evolution says absolutely nothing about the initial conditions for life, only how it progressed since it began.

    10. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Have you considered how unlikely it is to have a creator that fits us so well?

      The abrahamic deity fits the people even better than we are fit for this planet. People live in deserts and on the poles, but the abrahamic god is interestinly only concerned with things that are near his people and the local culture. When he wants people to go somewhere or conquest some country it's never around the globe or on the poles. He's deeply concerned with things that concern the population at that time and place. He refers a lot to pigs and sheep, but not to polar bears, penguins or dinousaurs.

      His motivations turn out to be remarkably compatible with the people as well. The things he wants people to do are things they are familiar with and can perform. His personality is remarkably human-like as well. He just happens not to be a chtulhu-like abomination, or a trickster god. However nasty he may be at times, he can be pleased at least for a time. He happens to want to set us on the right path, instead of just messing with us or obliterating us all and making something more to his liking in our place.

      Isn't that quite amazing as well?

    11. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by deapbluesea · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Basically, if you have a bunch of random individuals, and the 'evolution' just mashes a bunch of the better ones together, you'll see the increase in fitness occurring.

      Funny, I did my Masters degree in 2003 on GAs and the major finding is that, while the system finds novel solutions, it also exploits the weaknesses of the fitness function very easily. In other words, if you wanted to get a particular result, you had to put most of your effort into the fitness function that describes the desired result. This doesn't work without said function, ergo, design is the key, not simply mashing things together. In fact, if you run a GA without a fitness function, you get a random walk, aka monkeys on a typewriter.

      It's foolish to conflate computational optimization methods with biological evolution. While the mechanisms are similar, the means by which it occurs is about as closely related as AI is to human thought

      --
      Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
    12. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by BraksDad · · Score: 1

      It is not that soccer sucks so much as the fact that a primordial level of intelligence is capable of playing it.

      --
      Slowly waving my hand - "This is not the sig you are looking for."
    13. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The initial conditions were very carefully designed to create an environment that could achieve this result. Different initial conditions would result in noise. This is artificial evolution, and as such by the definition of artificial it is intelligently designed.

    14. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You make fitness functions sound a lot more complicated than I expect they are. For a soccer game, isn't your fitness function just "wins games"? For biological evolution it's just "isn't dead", basically. Is there something a lot more complex here that I'm missing?

      When you say "exploits the weaknesses of the fitness function" it sounds like you really mean "exploits the weaknesses of the game rules". eg. if the players can cheat and pick up the ball and run into the goal, that's not the behavior you want, but it succeeds the fitness function excellently. That's a problem with making a game where the player can pick up the ball and run into the goal, not a problem with the fitness function saying "wins games".

    15. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by mldi · · Score: 1

      Considering that the writer of this AI was simply copying mother nature, I would conclude that it has already been demonstrated.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    16. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by mldi · · Score: 1

      While this demonstrates basic concepts of evolution, it is still a far cry from demonstrated evolution of matter into super complex biological organisms. Given that, in the case of our species, quite a number of steps would have required that both parents acquired the exact same mutation at the exact same time that gave them some kind of key evolutionary advantage that helped them survive longer/better than people without it, and also considering the fact that there's not exactly a tendency in nature to organize (chances are worse than just picking the right color out of the hat), I would say that it's a VERY valid question to raise about evolution, at least our own evolution.

      Not to say that there's intelligence behind evolution, but that perhaps there's something more to it than we're seeing or thinking of. It's best not to think we know exactly how it all happened.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    17. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Yep.

      The only concern I have about this is that it might be a general purpose AI instead of a specifically purposed one. If it's general purpose, it seems tenable that we very well might see autonomous AI robots within not too long. That's somewhat disturbing, given the potential social and (significantly) military applications.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    18. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Who ever said that ID and evolution had to be mutually exclusive?

      The most plausible scenario is that both be involved. Designing your creation to evolve - ie, behave "intelligently" and adapt - would be the more intelligent way to design things, after all.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    19. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by deapbluesea · · Score: 1

      When you say "exploits the weaknesses of the fitness function" it sounds like you really mean "exploits the weaknesses of the game rules"

      Actually, that's exactly the type of thing a fitness function must incorporate. You can either constraint your population to only those members that encode a valid solution (i.e. one that follows all the rules), or you can encode the rules into a mathematical function that evaluates to a higher number if the solution is better.

      The problem with the former is that if solutions lie close to the constraint boundaries (which they frequently do), you will usually get a better solution if you take some of the encoding of a member that fails to meet the constraints but has a higher overall fitness. So to make this work, you either settle for a worse solution (by constraining population members) or you use a far more complex fitness function.

      Another major area of concern is how you measure success. If you use a single variable for success (e.g. number of wins), then you may end up with a solution that wins eventually but takes hours to do so. If you want to make that tighter, now you have to incorporate wins and time, which means you need to figure out which is more important to you If you extend this into n dimensions, you start having to worry about Pareto optimality and things get even more complicated.

      All that to say - it's not as easy as hitting the run button with a bunch of random binary strings.

      --
      Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
    20. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting on the comparison between encoding the rules into the fitness function vs constraining the population. Thanks for the post!

    21. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by benhattman · · Score: 1

      Really, this seems more likely to back up the assertion that soccer is "the beautiful game". I think you could argue that any game where the real world behavior is emergent has a particular elegance to it.

      FWIW, if you've ever watched 5 year olds play soccer (3 to a side), this simulation reached a similar level of sophistication somewhat after generation 100 but prior to 500. Four to five years old is about the point most children know enough to flock to the ball and kick at it intending it to go closer to the other team's goal.

    22. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As scripture says "we were created in his image". You seem to have the order backwards ; )

    23. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by haxney · · Score: 1

      While this demonstrates basic concepts of evolution, it is still a far cry from demonstrated evolution of matter into super complex biological organisms.

      It's not about "matter" evolving into "complex organisms," it is about "simple organisms" evolving into "complex organisms." Evolution isn't concerned with how life arose, only how it changed after arising.

      BTW,

      Given that, in the case of our species, quite a number of steps would have required that both parents acquired the exact same mutation at the exact same time that gave them some kind of key evolutionary advantage that helped them survive longer/better than people without it,

      No.

      Why would both parents need to acquire a trait at the same time? Either parent could pass on the trait, and beneficial traits would tend to spread throughout the population. More complex traits don't need to arise all at once, so a beneficial trait could arise in a small segment of the population and then gradually spread as those possessing the trait out-competed those without it. This is really basic evolutionary theory.

      and also considering the fact that there's not exactly a tendency in nature to organize (chances are worse than just picking the right color out of the hat)

      I have no idea what this means. "Organize" in what sense? Ironically, the word "organize" comes from "organs," which were evolved by... nature! The primary defining characteristic of all life is organizing. The most basic function of a cell is separating the interior from the exterior; when a cell ceases to segregate internal from external, it is no longer alive. Life is, literally, the organization of simpler compounds into organs, cells, and populations.

      I would say that it's a VERY valid question to raise about evolution, at least our own evolution.

      What is a "VERY valid question?" What question are you raising?

      Not to say that there's intelligence behind evolution, but that perhaps there's something more to it than we're seeing or thinking of. It's best not to think we know exactly how it all happened.

      That's why we are still researching it. We know the general mechanism (inherited genetic differences), but there are a ton of specifics left to figure out. The impressive thing about it is that a random number generator and a fitness function will give rise to amazingly complex results (either natural organisms or simulations). None of this requires any kind of mysterious, magical "intelligent designer" guiding the process. I may be overly cynical, but suggesting that evolution does have some "guiding hand" is a way to weasel ID nonsense into the conversation.

    24. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      As scripture says "we were created in his image". You seem to have the order backwards ; )

      No, it's exactly the reverse: we create our gods in our image.

      Read some mythology. Greeks had gods for everything they cared about, like war and love. Chinese heaven and hell has an organization matching that of China of the time, down to having provinces, ministers, and they had gods of specific activities like writing. And so on.

    25. Re:Intelligent Design tag? by mldi · · Score: 1

      It's not about "matter" evolving into "complex organisms," it is about "simple organisms" evolving into "complex organisms." Evolution isn't concerned with how life arose, only how it changed after arising.

      Good point, and I made too far of a leap there, but my point still stands.

      Why would both parents need to acquire a trait at the same time? Either parent could pass on the trait, and beneficial traits would tend to spread throughout the population. More complex traits don't need to arise all at once, so a beneficial trait could arise in a small segment of the population and then gradually spread as those possessing the trait out-competed those without it. This is really basic evolutionary theory.

      Not necessarily for interspecies evolution. Example: another pair of chromosomes develop, which renders the mutated organism to most likely not be able to reproduce with organisms without the extra pair of chromosomes. This is still a change on the DNA level. I say "both parents" thinking of examples like these in a species like us.

      I have no idea what this means. "Organize" in what sense? Ironically, the word "organize" comes from "organs," which were evolved by... nature! The primary defining characteristic of all life is organizing. The most basic function of a cell is separating the interior from the exterior; when a cell ceases to segregate internal from external, it is no longer alive. Life is, literally, the organization of simpler compounds into organs, cells, and populations.

      Meaning things aren't naturally self-organizing. Things left on their own tend towards a chaotic state. Even "stable" organic systems, like the basic cell, WILL grow chaotic and destabilize over time. I'm not arguing with what you said here, just clarifying what I meant.

      What is a "VERY valid question?" What question are you raising?

      The question of the exact process of evolution that got us to where we are now. Like I said, all I'm saying is a lot of people think we know exactly what happened. We don't. We're still studying it, and there's evidence that suggests there's more to it than just simple natural selection. That's all, questioning the status quo theory (in this case more of a mainstream theory than perhaps what's actually being researched), which is how proper science is done.

      That's why we are still researching it. We know the general mechanism (inherited genetic differences), but there are a ton of specifics left to figure out. The impressive thing about it is that a random number generator and a fitness function will give rise to amazingly complex results (either natural organisms or simulations). None of this requires any kind of mysterious, magical "intelligent designer" guiding the process. I may be overly cynical, but suggesting that evolution does have some "guiding hand" is a way to weasel ID nonsense into the conversation.

      Precisely. I never suggested a "guiding hand" was involved; I'm just saying there's a point to saying things are simply too complex to have evolved to their current state, given our current knowledge and understanding of the evolutionary process. Just being empathetic and seeing why they (the Creationists, IDers) would say that before pointing the dumb stick everywhere, that is all. As you said, it's crazy complex, and given the time frame all this occurs in, it's next to impossible to observe except with computer models, but even then there's a very structured order that is being dealt with. Nature isn't as simple as a set of numbers with a fitness function, especially when you're talking about going beyond simple forms of life.

      It may not all be "magical" to you, but if you aren't impressed with the end result, I don't even know how to hold a conversation with you ;)

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
  18. Tierra was - and is - really cool. by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the late 1980s, ecologist Thomas Ray, who is now at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, got wind of Core Wars and saw its potential for studying evolution. He built Tierra, a computerised world populated by self-replicating programs that could make errors as they reproduced.

    I was so amazed by the results claimed for Tierra that I went and reimplemented it myself. And damned if I didn't get similar results. At the time, it blew me away that such a system could come up with novel solutions I hadn't expected or 'programmed in'. Indeed, a couple times it took me a while to even figure out how the things worked.

    --
    PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
  19. will there be video replay then? by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    will there be video replay then?

  20. Background Bibliography? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just read this article and found it quite interesting.
    I do have a few ideas about how I would face the design of a system like that. However, I am not used to design such systems, and I would like to go deeper in the subject.
    Can anyone recommend some good books/papers about it ?

    Thanks a lot.

  21. NERO was fun too... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Speaking of evolutionary behavior in a simulation/game environment...

    I liked NERO a lot. The original idea was to have the bots run a capture the flag type game. However I found training mode more fun and interesting by making mazes in the map editor and seeing how AI behavior developed. "Training" my bots to run a maze was a simple yet timely processes of adjusting the reward value sliders for certain behaviors and manually smiting the bots that would get stuck or cling to the walls too much. Usually what would happen once they started getting good at running mazes quickly while showing more interesting behavior than running in circles was that the computer would crash and the last saved "DNA" neural algorithm file would swell from under a megabyte to well over a gig.

    Unfortunately nobody has done jack shit in regards to further development since 2007. (At least anything apparent on the public side.) Seems a shame, since it was good up to a point. There should be potential to do more with it. I guess either computers aren't powerful enough to handle the simulation past a certain level or that things just get too complicated on their own which would make debugging nearly impossible.

    I figure the NERO bots could also be made to play soccer too, provided there was the right LUA script written. (It used the Torque game engine.) But being that the simulation brickwalls at some point by simply doing maze runs, that seems unlikely at this point.

  22. Oh I completely understand this wonderful natural by 3seas · · Score: 1

    .... uh, hmmm..... what was I on about?

  23. Been happening in game AI for decades by Latinhypercube · · Score: 0

    old news

  24. Robocup by randomsearch · · Score: 1

    http://www.robocup.org/

    - has been going for a very long time, and often involves more sophisticated physical robots.

    Also, as many people have pointed out, this is not really all that original. One of the oldest Genetic Programming's PhDs (in 1980) evolved card players. Tierra pre-dates this stuff. Nothing surprising has emerged here, but I guess it is a nice popular science article for those not familiar with the field.

    As others have pointed out, Roger Alsing's Mona Lisa is very cool, as is the work that went into evolving an aerial design for NASA:

    http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/projects/esg/research/antenna.htm ... there are over 6000 papers published on Genetic Programming and a huge chunk of them are applications like this. EC techniques like this are just heuristic search algorithms for program spaces.

    RS.

  25. The dark side by gamecrusader · · Score: 1

    give this enough time and the world willl be ending in awhile prepare to nuclear war launched by our computers Judgment day will arrive if they keep this up stock up for war its coming

  26. Re:Oh so since my shoes soles ... by GarryFre · · Score: 1

    Not a troll asshole

    --
    www.Migrainesoft.com - Computer giving you a headache? We can fix that!
  27. Instant Employees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just think 100 more generations or so they'll be smart enough to code for Microsoft!!!

  28. Wasn't that the point? by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    Only the initial conditions were designed,

    I think that was mangu's entire point.

    As I read it, mangu is saying that any rational, logical take on an intelligent design theory of the universe would likely conclude that any design involved the stipulation and balancing of the underlying rules by which this universe functions, as a very elegantly balanced system that is then allowed to operate independently from the point of the Big Bang (or perhaps earlier if we posit a yo-yo universe), rather than as a hamfisted make-everything-manually, brute-force approach that is not allowed (or perhaps able) to operate independently for even 6,000-odd years.

    Anyone who's spent much time coding will no doubt appreciate the idea of a perfectly designed, bug-free system arising from a few lines of simple code that runs forever without the slightest glitch, much more than the image of a bloated behemoth that explicitly instantiates every type of object and codes for every conceivable corner case, and still needs lots of manual bug-fixing while running.

    I'm not much of one for religion myself, but if God is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent, an elegant, ultimately simple, and perfectly balanced universe is much more beautiful and compelling to me. A lot of fundamentalist insistence on things like "God made fossils to test our faith" just sounds far too clumsy for a deity that is supposed to be perfect. Anyway, that's my 2p.

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."