Flash Ported To iOS and iPhone 4

An anonymous reader noted that there is a simple HOWTO explaining how to install flash on an iPhone4. Mad props for using Strong Bad as the demo. Of course, step one is to use the JailBreakMe. Once installed, Flash inside Safari loads in a stopped state so it won't even hurt performance unless you decide to actually execute the program.

Comments

Everyone sing! C'mon, you know the words!

[Pojut]

"Would everyone please rise for the presentation of our national colors"

Oh!
Oh I like that!
Oh yeah!
Come to the place where the tropical breezes blow
Come to the coolest place I know
The people are so great
But really there's only me
And that means I'm so great
And also there's The Cheat
Oh there's The Cheat!
The place where the tropical breezes blow
The Cheat!
In the coolest place I know
The one's are always cold
And parties last all night
And probably lots of chocolate
And population tire
POPULATION TIREEEE!!!

Jailbreakme

[mark72005]

How long until Apple "fixes" the exploit used by the JailbreakMe website?

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anne_Nonymous]

Yes, if you jailbreak the phone, its antenna stops working.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, if you jailbreak the phone, its antenna stops working.

Just hack it differently.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Tharsman]

Mine is hacked. Antenna is working perfectly fine.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymusing]

Yes, if you jailbreak the phone, its antenna stops working.

No, you're just jailbreaking it wrong... try the right hand...

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymous Coward]

No big deal, it never worked to begin with.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymous Coward]

It's... um... a GIGANTIC security hole that's trivial to exploit. It's more shameful that they have NOT yet closed them.

Re:Jailbreakme

[trooperer]

Does it matter? All you have to do is stay away from iTunes' automatic updates and your iPhone will be jailbreakable. At least until Apple starts shipping new 4s with updated firmware.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Tharsman]

I'm sure they will do that soon, it's not just about people doing it on their phones. People are going to apple stores and jailbreaking display units. THAT's going to push apple to put this into high priority.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Actually I hope it's really soon. I not against jail breaking, but I don't like the idea that PDFs can be used to exploit iOS4. http://secunia.com/advisories/40807/

Re:Jailbreakme

[jiteo]

Um, there should be no quotes around "fixes". While JailBreakMe uses the exploit for honest purposes, we need to keep in mind that the exploit is a huge security hole that needs to get fixed ASAP.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Shihar]

That is hilarious. In fact, I need to hit a mall today for other reasons. I think I will make a stop by the Apple store and "fix" a few of their phones. From the videos I have seen of it, you can basically do it in 30 seconds. Go to website, slide the button, phone reboots, and you are done. Jailbreaking an iPhone is like reorganizing the desk of a control freak... it is only fun because they are some uptight. No one would ever bother to go to a Verizon store and root some Droids because no one would care.

Re:Jailbreakme

[lennier1]

Is anybody else waiting for Engadget and the like to pick this up and report it as "Jailbreaking Jesusphone fixes antenna problem"?

Re:Jailbreakme

[Cap'n.Brownbeard]

The exploit is patched, Apple is just sitting on the release for some reason.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/software/2010-08-09-apple09_ST_N.htm

Re:Jailbreakme

[Cap'n.Brownbeard]

This exploit is not specific to iOS4, it affects all versions up to iOS4.0.1.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a problem.

There hasn't been enough customer uproar.

Re:Jailbreakme

[AHuxley]

Root a Dell Steak ...
http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/07/dell-streak-gets-rooted-now-accepting-superusers/
How does that compare ?

Re:Jailbreakme

[Tharsman]

I'm a bit skeptic about the entire "antenna problem". I have not been able to reproduce the leftie-bug in any iphone4 i have held. I think it indeed just weakens signal a bit in places where signal already was bad.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Cwix]

If you live in an area with good AT&T coverage you wont notice a problem. Go out into the boonies.

I see your anecdotal evidence and match with my own. Out here in the midwest ive seen it happen on every iphone4 ive had the opportunity of trying it on. Including the display model at the AT&T store.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymous Coward]

My friend must have magic hands because he can do it to any iphone 4 he touches. This is right in the middle of Manhattan.

Re:Jailbreakme

[i20AuLion]

Jailbreaking an iPhone is like reorganizing the desk of a control freak... it is only fun because they are some uptight. (sic)

So basically, you know better and you want to impose your opinion. What's the difference between you and Steve Jobs then? It's ok to act like you want to because you KNOW you are right? I'm sure Steve thinks he's right too. Blindly defending a cause doesn't make it right. And when everybody thinks they're right and act on that belief: war.

Re:Jailbreakme

[ohcrapitssteve]

Looks as though this exploit is patched in iOS 4.1 (current release is 4.0.1) which is already in beta and should see release soon... likely in the fall which would coincide with a simultaneous release for the iPad.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Yvan256]

Dell Steak? Don't post on Slashdot when you're hungry!

Re:Jailbreakme

[tepples]

All you have to do is stay away from iTunes' automatic updates

I don't yet own an iPod Touch or iPhone; I am still evaluating which device to buy. Is it practical to sync music onto an iPod Touch or iPhone without updating?

Re:Jailbreakme

[FutureDomain]

It sounds like someone is uptight...

Re:Jailbreakme

[cgenman]

Yes. Asking if you would like to "download the latest versions and update" is a prior step to syncing. It then starts downloading, which can be cancelled. It's pretty easy to not update your iPhone. My girlfriend did that for about a year, just because she didn't feel like dealing with the new updates.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Tharsman]

If you live in an area with good AT&T coverage you wont notice a problem. Go out into the boonies.

I see your anecdotal evidence and match with my own. Out here in the midwest ive seen it happen on every iphone4 ive had the opportunity of trying it on. Including the display model at the AT&T store.

My issue, though, is I have not found an area that does not jump from good to so-bad-i-just-need-to-stare-at-it-for-the-iphone-to-fail. There does not seem to be any in-betweens around where I live. Either ATT just plainly sucks, or they work great.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, updates are voluntary and you have to select to force an update. I'm still on 3.1.2 and will not update anytime soon even though it keeps telling me that an update is ready.

Re:Jailbreakme

[trooperer]

iTunes is generally a pain to work with. You can, however, disable automatic updating.

I would recommend using some alternative software, such as CopyTrans Manager or similar. You still need iTunes installed because of iPod/iPhone drivers, but there are ways of extracting drivers from iTunes installer, without actually installing iTunes itself (a short tutorial can be found here)

btw, CTM works only with Windows :/

Re:Jailbreakme

[Shihar]

I wouldn't be even a little shocked to find that Android tablets are rooted with an open menu option. Cell phone have a pretty good reason to make at least a half assed attempt to keep phones from being rooted. An Android tablet though? Why would Dell or Toshiba care if you root your tablet? If anything, for a tablet, it is probably a selling point. There is absolutely no reason for Dell to be all ADD about people messing with their hardware like Apple is.

I bet tablets are where you see the full power of Android. Hardware companies are likely to be far more interested in giving you the latest updates than smearing the phone with the manufactures UI and the cell phones providers crapware. I mean fucking Sprint NASCAR... fuck you Sprint for defiling my Evo.

It almost makes me wish Google would go all Godwin's Law on carriers, break out the beating clubs, and and shut that shit down. I would rather have some random Sprint crapapps than get a POS iPhone where it isn't until the 4th fucking version of the OS when they finally bless you with the ability to change your background and browse the web while listening to Panadora (and those poor fuckers still can't even change their notification sounds to non-Apple Corp approved ones), but I would rather have just vanilla Android than either of those things.

Take your pick. Walled in suburbs that make you want to blow your brains out just to get away from the dull uniform mediocracy of Apple, or head to the city with Android and have to ignore the blazing billboards of Sprint sponsered NASCAR crap apps to get to all the good drinking and fighting. Oh well, it is like they say, you can't make an omelet without murdering a few people.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Cwix]

My issue, though, is I have not found an area

So because you havn't found an issue, everyone else is full of it?

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymous Coward]

It can exploit the other iOs's as well. just saying for clarity's sake. i used it on a 3g running 3.1.3 yesterday.

Re:Jailbreakme

[aristotle-dude]

If you live in an area with good AT&T coverage you wont notice a problem. Go out into the boonies.

I see your anecdotal evidence and match with my own. Out here in the midwest ive seen it happen on every iphone4 ive had the opportunity of trying it on. Including the display model at the AT&T store.

My issue, though, is I have not found an area that does not jump from good to so-bad-i-just-need-to-stare-at-it-for-the-iphone-to-fail. There does not seem to be any in-betweens around where I live. Either ATT just plainly sucks, or they work great.

Yeah, that is caused by the formula that they use to calculate signal strength which was wrong. 4.0.1 only changed the size of the bars. The number of bars swing wildly because the range for full bars is so wide and the rest so narrow. You might not have such a strong signal to begin with and when there is a drop, it appears to be catastrophic when you actually had only 3 bars of strength.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Eunuchswear]

Cell phone have a pretty good reason to make at least a half assed attempt to keep phones from being rooted.

And that reason is?

My n900 did need an app instaling to get root access, but that app came from the official repo. I guess Nokia were worried about someone getting root and going all "THE SHEER UNADULTERATED POWER! BWAAHAHHAHHA! rm -fr /" or something,

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymous Coward]

ahhh but tharsman, you're not entirely likely to be neutral when it comes to apple gear are you?

after all you are known to lust after steve jobs' wrinkled old pecker with a voracity that would make most fanboys blush and retreat back to their parents basements!

Re:Jailbreakme

[jo_ham]

With new software updates, it will ask you if you want to download and install, just download, or ignore (and you can tell it not to ask you again), so you don't have to update. It's separate from the syncing process itself - I have kept my 3G on the old software, since I really don't need the features offered by the iOS4 update and the performance is reportedly not great on the 3G. iTunes doesn't mind at all that I'm not up to date with the very latest stuff when syncing all my music, calendars etc.

Re:Jailbreakme

[ultranova]

Oh well, it is like they say, you can't make an omelet without murdering a few people.

Are you using the Anarchist Cookbook ?-)

Re:Jailbreakme

[Shihar]

So basically, you know better and you want to impose your opinion... fill in some some whiny stuff that ends with me being the reason for World War II here.

Let's not get confused here. I am not doing it because I want to lead iPhone users to happiness. If I wanted to make an iPhone user happy, I would point them to the nearest kill-me-now gated 'burbclave with its endless sterile rows of uniform houses... or give them a gift card to that oh-so "edgy" multinational corporate chain of coffee shops.

Believe me, rooting iPhones at an Apple store isn't being done to be nice. It is done to be a jerk and revel in someone else's unhappiness.

What's the difference between you and Steve Jobs then?

The difference between me and Steve Jobs is that Jobs is an uptight asshole who wouldn't know a good quality debauched drunken merriment even if a band of whore gypsies gate crashed his emasculate (emasculate was typo, but I think I will leave it because it works) palace and force fed him wine and sex all night long.... and he has a few hundred million dollars and vastly more black turtle necks than me.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Xyde]

What have you got against PDF's being used to exploit iOS4? Would you prefer a TIFF like in 1.1.1? Or BMP because they're infrequent enough to filter on your own end?

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymous Coward]

SANS seems to believe that this is the fix...

http://www.foxitsoftware.com/announcements/2010861227.html

Re:Jailbreakme

[Anonymous Coward]

You only think its simultaneous...

Re:Jailbreakme

[mark72005]

Only 0.5% of users have complained about this security risk - therefore, it's really no problem.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Tharsman]

My issue, though, is I have not found an area

So because you havn't found an issue, everyone else is full of it?

No, others are not full of it. You are though, specially since I never denied the issues. But I assure you, its a very vocal minority having the antenna issues, people that have been living in the edge of ATT's sucky service. Those edges are rare on any service, since, well, they are near the end of coverage area.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Sancho]

Yeah, Apple is pretty slow to respond to security issues. This is the case across the board, from Macs to phones to software running on non-Apple operating systems. It's pretty sad.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Maybe because I was addressing the specific exploit mentioned by the GP...

No more coffee for you!

Re:Jailbreakme

[3choTh1s]

There is a sort of "fix" for this if you have jailbroken your iPhone.

http://www.cultofmac.com/software-hack-to-plug-jailbreak-pdf-hole-is-released/53557

So jailbreaking can actually help the security of your phone before Apple has a chance to fix it. One more reason for jailbreaking beyond the usual stuff.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Lunix Nutcase]

Funny because if they didn't fix such an exploit the people like you would be whining and crying about how long these exploits continue to exist without being fixed.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Lunix Nutcase]

Believe me, rooting iPhones at an Apple store isn't being done to be nice. It is done to be a jerk and revel in someone else's unhappiness.

Wow you're pretty hardcore, bro. Secondly, it takes the people in the Apple Store probably like 10 seconds to restore the phone and undo what you did. At the same time they are laughing at your pasty, obese ass for even wasting your time thinking your doing some big "stickin it to da man!!!" thing.

Re:Jailbreakme

[kimvette]

Yes, updates are voluntary and you have to select to force an update.

Updates are technically voluntary, but if you sync to Windows rather than OS X it is ALL TOO EASY to accidentally upgrade the phone's OS due to focus stealing if you're touch typing.

So, voluntary it may be, but sometimes some involuntarily update due to focus stealing. Microsoft may consider that type of call a feature, but I consider it a bug. At least X window managers allow me to allow or disallow focus stealing, and on OS X it hasn't been a problem for me either.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Morth]

Unfortunately, you do have to click the "No, I don't want to update" everytime you connect your iPhone.

Re:Jailbreakme

[duguk]

Cell phone have a pretty good reason to make at least a half assed attempt to keep phones from being rooted.

I'm just a fan, but the Nokia N900 is easily rooted. Just open up the terminal and type in "root".

Re:Jailbreakme

[Jesse_vd]

There is a checkbox to not ask you again for that particular device

Re:Jailbreakme

[Jesse_vd]

between you clicking "update" and the update beginning, iTunes has to download a 230MB+ firmware file. this is adequate time to unplug your phone.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Jesse_vd]

The only problems you will face is new apps requiring a certain firmware version. Be careful when downloading app updates that the requirements haven't changed

Re:Jailbreakme

[dissy]

I not against jail breaking, but I don't like the idea that PDFs can be used to exploit iOS4.

It's pretty ironic actually. There is a fix for the PDF exploit, but your device needs to be jailbroken to be able to install it.

http://www.redmondpie.com/fix-pdf-exploit-in-safari-after-jailbreaking-with-jailbreakme-using-pdf-loading-warner/

Re:Jailbreakme

[Cwix]

You denied the issue right here...

I'm a bit skeptic about the entire "antenna problem"

You call the veracity of the claims into question, and then deny you did. It seems to me that your the one who is full of it.

Re:Jailbreakme

[troutsoup]

performance is horrible on a 3G with iOS4. i can type at times and wait 10 seconds for it to catch up. programs, including the SMS and phone program will just crash and it resprings. i need to set aside some time to downgrade.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Tharsman]

You denied the issue right here...

I'm a bit skeptic about the entire "antenna problem"

You call the veracity of the claims into question, and then deny you did. It seems to me that your the one who is full of it.

Skeptic:

1.One who instinctively or habitually doubts , questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.

If you read, you read the full thing instead of attempting to find the one line that, in isolation, makes it looks like you are not full of it, you would notice that my note is that the issues only happen nearing the borders of signal reach. That on itself was an acknowledgment of the issue, that only denies claims that the signal plainly dies whenever your finger bridges both antennas.

Now go and try to hunt through this for one word that will make it once more look like I am saying anyone that claims there are issues is full of it as an attempt try to show you are not full of it when accusing me of this redundant loop.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Meski]

You need to work on your stare a bit, then.

Re:Jailbreakme

[AmigaMMC]

Mine was a nightmare. In the first week I owned it it dropped more calls than my blackberry did in nearly 2 years. Something else was wrong, slider kept freezing and I couldn't answer phone calls. I brought it to Apple store and they replaced my new iPhone4 with a refurbished one (yey!), most OS problems disappear but occasionally there's a freeze. Not the almighty OS Apple fanboys like to believe. Last week (after 3 weeks of ownership) I just had enough of the nth dropped calls (nice when it happens after you've been on hold for 15 minutes with an airline) and stormed into my AT&T store. The manager was quite nice and gave me a free case right away (Apple notified me that the free case to rectify the antenna problem would be shipped Sept. 7th, that's over a month after purchasing my phone, meanwhile according to them I'm supposed to sit a month with a malfunctioning phone). Anyway, with the case from AT&T in my hands for 5 days now I haven't dropped a single call.

Re:Jailbreakme

[wealthychef]

This independent survey of iPhone 3GS users and iPhone 4 users show that the version 4 users have fewer dropped calls and less complaints about reception.

Re:Jailbreakme

[kimvette]

Right, if you notice it. Easy to miss if you are touch typing a long document and you get 30mbps downstream.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Jesse_vd]

Windows "feature" =/= a fault of the iPhone or iTunes. I really didn't think we'd need to get so pedantic, but the phone is also going to do a full backup before beginning to update. As I'm sure you're aware, that takes at least 15 hours on even the highest performance PC's. Maybe you can take a second to look at your screen when you connect your phone.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Jesse_vd]

I agree the performance is abysmal on my jailbroken 3G with multitasking enabled, but when i switch to safemode (disabling most of the jailbroken software) it's quite usable. i've found some tips online like disabling all the options of spotlight so that it's not constantly indexing the whole phone. i am still considering going back to 3.1.2 when i deligate it to another remote control soon though.

Re:Jailbreakme

[troutsoup]

it doesn't have the multitasking or wallpaper enabled. it was totally unusable with those enabled and had to immediately redo it without them.

Re:Jailbreakme

[Jesse_vd]

the wallpaper will certainly make a difference, but i believe the multi-tasking only hampers performance when in use. i am just sure to stay on top of what's loaded to memory

Oh noes!

[Pojut]

Based on the way Apple has talked about flash, I guess people's iPhones are just going to explode.

Re:Oh noes!

[ZeroExistenZ]

Based on the way Apple has talked about flash, I guess people's iPhones are just going to explode.

It's why Papermann, the Apple Hardware designer, has resigned after "the last ultimate hardware design".

The plot to cleanse the world of consumerism, why do you think they had those Russian spies all over the USA? No doubt Papermann was a nice infiltrant and will now enjoying his view on the beach in Russia (which is, a bit more tropical climated as usual as a way to compensate Papermann.)

Brilliant to take out the Apple drones first, the class-A model of consumerism, Communism will be victorious AGAIN!

Fire up those Linux advocate-engines!

2011 *IS* the year of the Linux desktop, hooray!

Re:Oh noes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you on drugs?

Seriously, are you? Because that made NO FUCKING SENSE.

Re:Oh noes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, read his post history. ZeroExistenz is either a schizophrenic sociopath or what they did with /b/ucket after they took down his site.

Re:Oh noes!

[nine-times]

Actually, based on the way Apple has talked about Flash, I'd expect that Flash will perform poorly, crash often, and drain battery life.

How much do you want to bet that it's true?

Re:Oh noes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Based on the way Apple has avoided talking about Flash, I guess given the option people will develop for it instead of Objective C so their apps aren't locked into being iPhone only.

Re:Oh noes!

[Haedrian]

No, it'll work perfectally for a while, then a patch will make it work horribly and Jobs will go "I told you so!"

Re:Oh noes!

[nmg196]

Not really because jailbreaking means we can also install AdBlock! So although we can run Flash, we can immediately block of it again - TEH WIN! :)

Re:Oh noes!

[toadlife]

No need to care what Apple says. Flash has been and is available on other smartphone platforms with hardware similar to the iPhone for years now. It runs like shit on those, so I don't see any reason why it wouldn't run like shit on the iPhone.

Re:Oh noes!

[index0]

Why can't the end user decide if they want to run flash or not. Why does Steve have to decide?

Re:Oh noes!

[__aapspi39]

I'm surprised you haven't heard of flash player 10.1?

Its been out for over a month and works fine on my android phone...

From what i've heard its good for all the latest devices out there.

All apart from the iphone of course :)

Re:Oh noes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly, there is no problem:

...it won't even hurt performance unless you decide to actually execute the program.

Re:Oh noes!

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

I'm surprised you haven't heard of flash player 10.1? Its been out for over a month and works fine on my android phone...
Except for those ass-clowns running Hulu. wow, so I should sign up for your lame premium service b/c my flash device can also make phone calls?

Re:Oh noes!

[nine-times]

It also runs poorly on OSX. And Linux. And really anything other than Windows.

Re:Oh noes!

[nine-times]

Well you can read their reasoning here. Pay special attention to reason #6.

I'm not saying you can't disagree with their reasoning, but obviously they have their reasons.

Re:Oh noes!

[Anonymous Coward]

So it will perform exactly like we have come to expect flash to perform.

Re:Oh noes!

[toadlife]

I have a Windows Mobile phone. We;re stuck (forever) on version 9.1 (Opera Mobile 10). It works *ok* but the processor in my phone really limits it.

It would probably run a little better if I had one of those snapdragons.

Re:Oh noes!

[shutdown -p now]

And yet it runs fine here on my Nexus One. What am I doing wrong? Is there, perhaps, an antenna problem reducing RDF coverage in my area?

Re:Oh noes!

[jo42]

I'm surprised you haven't heard of flash player 10.1?
Its been out for over a month and works fine on my android phone...

You are lying. Period.

Re:Oh noes!

[Cougar Town]

It runs great on Linux for me (including full-screen HD video... with hardware-acceleration), and in agreement with another poster, it's great on my Nexus One also.

Flash does suck up more CPU than other things, I wouldn't even try to dispute that. But certainly not enough that I get a poor experience on any of my three platforms (Windows, Linux, Android).

Re:Oh noes!

[nine-times]

Well I got pretty poor performance on my Linux computer (which is admittedly 6 years old, but it's capable of playing video normally) and had trouble on another computer because (apparently?) there's no 64-bit version and so I couldn't get it installed through Ubuntu's normal package management. I admit I gave up pretty easily. When I could get Flash to run, it still crashed relatively often and sometimes rendered things wrong.

And I got absolutely terrible performance out of my HTC Incredible.

So though I don't really know, I'll posit that you get great performance out of *your* Linux computer and *your* Android-based phone, but it definitely doesn't seem like you can count on that.

Running OSX, Flash crashing constantly.

Re:Oh noes!

[komode0]

It actually runs pretty poorly on Windows too.

Re:Oh noes!

[squiggleslash]

Runs fine under Ubuntu. You must be doing it wrong.

Re:Oh noes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Flash works great on the Droid Incredible BTW. I've been enjoying Hulu and addictinggames.com for a while now.

Still won't help...

[nlvp]

...all the people who want to develop applications for sale through the App store, for whom Apple is still the gatekeeper who can enforce whatever rules any way they choose.

Hard to believe this behaviour in the wake of the Microsoft cases heard in Europe and elsewhere, but I suppose Apple can still argue that they don't control enough of the market with the iPhone to be considered a monopolist, and so can impose any conditions on developers that they choose.

Re:Still won't help...

[hedwards]

The difference is that the iPhone isn't anywhere near as dominant as Windows is. The iPhone isn't number one and in recent times has been getting trounced by Android. It's really only a matter of time before developers jump ship for Android, given the plethora of dickish moves that Apple has made against the developers.

Re:Still won't help...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummmmmmmm, NO. BEING -a monopolist is ok. ABUSING monopolies when you have them (using that leverage to enter another market, for instance) is illegal. Figger it out before you looks ig'orant.

Re:Still won't help...

[Anonymous Coward]

I would say you are unquestionably the "ig'orant" one here, as if Apple was classified as a monopoly, their activities would without a doubt be considered anti competitive, something the OP pretty clearly implied. On second read of your post and the post you replied to, I'm gonna actually take back that "ig'orant" and raise it to a "fucking retarded".

Re:Still won't help...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're funny.

Android OS may be beating iPhone OS but that's Android OS on 100 different Android phones with all different specs.
It's much harder to develop for Android because you have to worry about all the difference specs.

iOS 4 is still the #1 OS on iPhones and while sure iOS 4 runs on the iPhone 3G it's mainly running on iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4 which have similar hardware. So you don't have to worry about your app running horrible on certain phones.

Re:Still won't help...

[nlvp]

My point exactly : Apple's argument is that they're not dominant. But I agree violently with your characterisation of some of their more recent moves as "dickish". There's a slight whiff of megalomania, perhaps a faint odour of superiority, to their reactions to anything that isn't either home-grown or plays within their rules.

Re:Still won't help...

[Pojut]

So you don't have to worry about your app running horrible on certain phones.

True, but developing for Android vs. iOS means you don't have to worry about being bitch-slapped by Apple. It's almost like a cruel joke...a way for them to assert their power. "We know you have no choice but to develop for us...and we're going to make that suck. Why? Because we can, that's why."

Re:Still won't help...

[RetroRichie]

Nope--there is nothing inherently bad about monopoly. There's nothing even illegal about being a monopoly. It is only illegal to leverage your monopoly with anti-competitive tactics, and you don't need anti-competitive tactics to become a monopoly. The two are mutually exclusive.

Re:Still won't help...

[nlvp]

You didn't read his post, nobody's qualifying monopolies as good or bad here... here's the key phrase :

if Apple was classified as a monopoly, their activities would without a doubt be considered anti competitive, something the OP pretty clearly implied.

I didn't say being a monopoly was "bad", and neither did he, we both said that their present actions could be considered bad were they to be qualified as a monopolist. I said that if Apple were a monopolist, then their behaviour (blocking certain applications from running on their OS) could be interpreted in the same light as Microsoft's actions in the past. In other words as abuse of monopoly power. But to abuse it you have to have it...

Since they are not a monopolist, they can defend their actions by saying that they don't control enough of the market for their behaviour to qualify as market abuse as developers such as Adobe have the ability to produce software for many other platforms and a very large chunk of the market.

The first AP (with the charming "ig'orant" remark) probably just read my post to fast and had an itchy trigger finger. I didn't think I needed to spell my argument out in all its detail, but anyway, this is slashdot, flames are part of the scenery.

Re:Still won't help...

[valeo.de]

You're funny.

Android OS may be beating iPhone OS but that's Android OS on 100 different Android phones with all different specs. It's much harder to develop for Android because you have to worry about all the difference specs.

I don't develop apps for either platform, however I know people who do and they tell me it's not that difficult. The biggest hurdle seems to be differing screen sizes, which a smart programmer can code around. Of course, if app programmers have no grasp of portable programming, it will be a lot harder to target multiple handsets, so point taken. There's also the fact that manufacturers like Sony Ericsson, for example, are releasing new handsets with Android 1.6 and no updates in sight. There's really no excuse for that, and will only hurt their profits and annoy users and developers alike.

iOS 4 is still the #1 OS on iPhones and while sure iOS 4 runs on the iPhone 3G it's mainly running on iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4 which have similar hardware. So you don't have to worry about your app running horrible on certain phones.

Redundant, surely. Especially considering that there isn't a flurry of users rushing to put some other OS on their iPhones. Sure you could bring up the hardware using Linux or some other embedded OS, but without all the drivers and baseband software, it's just an expensive brick.

And btw, do you actually know anyone who owns an iPhone 3 or 3GS with iOS 4 on it that is actually happy I know quite a few, and every single one wishes they had not upgraded. The words 'dog', 'slow' and the phrase "I can't wait 'til my contract is up" spring to mind.

Re:Still won't help...

[Fross]

A quick google ( http://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1CHNG_enGB347GB355&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=iphone+market+share ) shows iphone passed Windows mobile in 2009, and had 3x market share of Android as of June this year.

Do get your facts right or you look as bad as the fanboys.

Re:Still won't help...

[nlvp]

Given the context of the discussion, I don't think he was comparing the iPhone OS to Microsoft's OS in the smartphone market. He was comparing the iPhone's market position (i.e. "is it a monopoly") to the position Windows XP held when Microsoft was getting lambasted for abuse of monopoly power by the courts.

In his second sentence, he then talked about the smartphone market, to demonstrate how others provide robust competition to the iPhone (further proof that the market is not a monopoly).

The gist of his message is right... They can't be considered a monopoly since they don't control the market, and Android is a new entrant and is gaining market share, as the link you yourself provided proves.

Re:Still won't help...

[Cwix]

Careful teasing the fanbois. Teased one the other day, and he went rabid on me. Had to have him put down.

Re:Still won't help...

[nmg196]

I presume the moderator of the parent who modded it "Troll" was an Apple Fanboy and not an Apple App Developer.
No idea why that post is modded Troll.. It's perfectly true. You wouldn't catch Google banning perfectly sensible apps and constantly moving the qualification goalposts.

Re:Still won't help...

[Anonymous Coward]

The European situation involved windows on the desktop, and that might have given you a clue.

I'm sorry if you look really stupid now.

Can I recommend you avoid judging others before you are absolutely sure that you're not badly wrong on a particular issue. I suspect its not the first time you've put your foot in it and it probably won't be the last eh.

Re:Still won't help...

[inKubus]

Android is selling at a faster rate. So Apple is losing marketshare slowly. Not as much as RIM and WM7 are to Android but it's already starting.

Re:Still won't help...

[Bing Tsher E]

There's a slight whiff of megalomania, perhaps a faint odour of superiority, to their reactions to anything that isn't either home-grown or plays within their rules.

No. There's a gaseous reek, and not only have they set up special machinery at the Apple campus to pump out high volumes of the gas, but also the fans and enthusiasts of the gaseous reek have been drawn in.

Apple didn't invent 'Not Invented Here' arrogance. It's even something they don't claim to have invented. But they've refined it a bit. And the real laugh about it is they couldn't even 'invent' a real multitasking OS. They had to buy a company (NeXT) that had produced one, far away from 'The Apple Campus Culture' in order to not just have their OS platform die.

Re:Still won't help...

[dissy]

"We know you have no choice but to develop for us...

Do you need any of us to call the police about the guy from Apple standing behind you with a gun to your head?

Slashdot, it saves lives, if not web servers!

Re:Still won't help...

[jo42]

It's really only a matter of time before developers jump ship for Android

Developers can't make nowhere near the money off of developing for Android that they can for iOS. You will only see crap and shite on Android. All the quality stuff will be on iOS.

Re:Still won't help...

[nlvp]

No. There's a gaseous reek

I was being polite.. :)

Now we wait....

[master811]

...to see how long it takes before Apple "fixes" this and "saves" people from the "horror" that is flash - whether we want him to or not.

Re:Now we wait....

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would they? Most folks don't jailbreak their phone, and most could probably care less about flash. The vast majority of sites you visit either have mobile versions, or if not, the flash isn't critical to navigation. I've hit maybe 2 sites in the past year that required flash. I simply brought my business elsewhere in such cases.

It's a non-issue. Otherwise flash would be on every smart phone on the market. It's only now making it into mainstream Android platforms, and even then, it's still a dog.

Re:Now we wait....

[bogaboga]

Would this 'fixing' if attempted work on jail-broken phones as well?

Re:Now we wait....

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

Apple knows what is best for all of us. Do as Apple says. Obey... Conform....

Oh damn it, I forgot I had my sunglasses on. ... "Think Different"

Oh well

[Midnight Thunder]

Kudos for the achievement, but I am not going to clap too hard.

[rant]
I am not a big fan of Flash at the best of times. I have seen more cases of sloppy web design, UI design and lack of CPU optimisations in Flash than in other things I have used. Some of this can be attributed to people developing the Flash applications and some of this can be attributed to Adobe, but in the end we all suffer. If some of these issues were addressed I might change my mind about Flash, but at this point I have Flash block on my PC and I am not really missing it on my hand-held devices. Also, the lack of evidence that Adobe is actually trying to address these concerns is not helping. As for web sites using it as their only UI: sorry I'll find out what you were trying to sell when you use web standards.
[/rant]

Re:Oh well

[deathguppie]

Dude, seriously. I hate the plastic knife they pack away in those little cheesy cracker packs. It doesn't work very well and it's more garbage for the environment, but sometimes it's the only way to spread my cheese. I could hate the plastic spreader, write about it in blogs, start a petition... However sometimes it's just what I'm looking for even if I don't agree with it.

With that said, many, many flash sites load and run very well on my Nexus One. More than I would have thought, and I can always turn it off, or not go to the site.

Re:Oh well

[Sockatume]

Surely you exaggerate? I've seen more shit web design in plain old HTML than everything else combined. Your UID suggests you're old enough to remember Geocities and Angelfire.

Re:Oh well

[Shihar]

I have been a pretty big hater of flash in the past. Its ability to bring a modern computer to its knees with a fucking little flash game is pretty god damn annoying. That said, Apple bitch slapping the shit out of Flash has knocked a little sense into their heads. They have recently discovered mortality and found that they kind of fear it. Flash has started to clean up its act and stopped assuming that the user has more cores than fingers and enough memory to run a dozen instances Windows Vista at once. In fact, EVERYONE has started to do this from website designers to chip makers. I think the smart phone mobile revolution has been great for design in general. For too long everyone used Moore's law as crutch. Why use good design when you can throw 8 gig, handful of cores, and enough power to run a small movie theater at the problem?

What makes the mobile revolution really interesting is that it is really just reclaiming a lot of old tech. Everyone from chip designers to programmers know exactly where to go next because we have already been there with the PC. The challenge now is to take that old tech and optimizing to do more with less. The programing piece is interesting, but I think the real advances will be in hardware design. What smartphones are doing to hardware (chips, memory, sensors, etc) is breathtaking. They have covered ground that it took PCs a decade to cover in a couple of years. By the time my HTC Evo is ready for replacement in less than two years, I don't doubt for a second that my next phone is going to be rocking specs to put my last computer to shame.

Re:Oh well

[StuartHankins]

you're old enough to remember Geocities and Angelfire

Shhh! We don't talk of those things. Imagine if they had AJAX back then -- the world could've exploded. Best to let those memories die.

Re:Oh well

[Midnight Thunder]

Surely you exaggerate? I've seen more shit web design in plain old HTML than everything else combined. Your UID suggests you're old enough to remember Geocities and Angelfire.

I may exaggerate (heck rants are for that :), but then again my expectations have gone up too. The idea of having a Core 2 Duo PC brought to it knees by Flash ads is not something that should be accepted. There are plenty of nicely designed Flash sites (though a pure HTML approach would be nice), but should we accept a Flash application max out a CPU, especially when it does seemingly nothing, when the same thing of a stand-alone application would be reason enough to junk it?

I must admit while there were plenty of badly done web pages in Geocities, they were mostly static, so at least that was the only thing to put up with. Also, many of them weren't done by self professed 'web designers' either.

Re:Oh well

[Skuld-Chan]

I had to switch from a Nexus One (Froyo 2.2) to a Motorola Droid-X (Eclair 2.1) because AT&T blows chunks (despite their coverage map showing full 3g coverage) where I live and I have to say - I do miss Flash, and I catch myself visiting a website that has embedded Flash objects I like to play around with all the time and just staring at that "missing plugin" icon is still a bit of a shock (only had the new phone 3-4 days). Adobe Flash only works on Froyo 2.2.

A lot of websites and blogs embed flash videos in them, and if they aren't Youtube - you cannot view them.

I do like the Droid-X more than the Nexus One (its touch display is far less buggy) and I can't wait for the next big update :).

Oh and Flash on my Nexus caused no noticeable battery drain than normal - in fact after Froyo was installed the battery life went *up* not down.

Re:Oh well

[jellomizer]

I would prefer to make that decision myself then have a company dictate it to me. I have an iPhone and I actually really do like it. However Flash is something I would like to have the option to choose. I am not applauding Jobs for keeping Flash off the Phone, Granted 99% of the time it isn't an issue but that 1% is annoying. HTML 5 is great and all however until IE supports it well by most of it browser share it will not be replacing Flash. And there are the DRM Reasons to stay with flash... Yes I know DRM is evil... But it is often used in the cases of DRM or No Content type of applications.

Re:Oh well

[sponga]

Whatever floats your boat.

But I have Flash running on my G1 the oldest of the Android phones and 90% of the time most sites work, in fact all the major websites work just fine and day by day more sites are adjusting their content for mobile.
To put it in another way, I have more options than you and can access more stuff.
No it is not bloated(yet..) and videos stream perfectly clear.

It works....

Re:Oh well

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I have been a pretty big hater of flash in the past. Its ability to bring a modern computer to its knees with a fucking little flash game is pretty god damn annoying.

I just wanted to mention something I noticed this weekend, anecdotally of course: I watched two episodes of X-Files (roughly 1.5 hours) on the iPhone Hulu app and only noticed a 15% or so drain on the battery. I'd be surprised if a mobile version of Flash could pull that off without co-operation from the site on the other end.

Re:Oh well

[rickb928]

"I have seen more cases of sloppy web design, UI design and lack of CPU optimisations in Flash than in other things I have used...

If some of these issues were addressed I might change my mind about Flash...

the lack of evidence that Adobe is actually trying to address these concerns..."

Um, by your logic, Microsoft has some responsibility for poor .NET programming, Linus and the crew have some responsibility for poor open source programming, and who do we blame for bad C, C+, C++, and C# code?

No, next thing I know, you'll be blaming Estwing for bad house designs, and Exxon for narrow roads. Sheesh. You can't get much more wrong than that. It's not the tool, my friend.

Re:Oh well

[DrgnDancer]

The real worst is that a lot of those CPU eating flash applications are omnipresent ads. For a long time I resisted using ad blockers. I've run small sites and I know that they really need those fractions of a penny per page view; but after the second or third time that my computer was brought to its knees by the ads on my WoW Guild's website (I usually leave it up to check forums and such), I had to do something.

Re:Oh well

[thsths]

> That said, Apple bitch slapping the shit out of Flash has knocked a little sense into their heads.

How so? As far as I can tell Flash installs and upgrades are still every bit as unpredictable as they used to be. Google Chrome may actually be on to something by including it in the browser, but that is not exactly Adobe's achievement, is it?

And let's not forget that there is still a big gaping 0 day (or -7 day) hole in Acrobat - which seems to be getting the norm rather than the exception.

The 64bit plugin was discontinued without alternative. Sure you can run an old beta, but it also has known security issues.

So how exactly is Adobe making any progress? The software sucks more than ever.

Re:Oh well

[oogoliegoogolie]

I've seen more shit web design in plain old HTML than everything else combined.

I dunno. I think today's shit designed flash pages with a long-loading shit flash introduction, shit-flash dropdown menu's, and numerous shit flash ads plastered on every page on the site is worse than anything that can be designed in html.

About 8 years ago Flash was used sparingly and was kinda cool, but today almost every site uses flash just for the sake of using it, not because they need it for anything that plain old HTML cannot do.

Re:Oh well

[Anonymous Coward]

did you build this Core 2 Duo PC yourself...?

its just you don't seem to be too technical and that would explain why you can't seem to get small instances of flash content working properly on it.

Re:Oh well

[Draek]

Then you're too young to remember animated starry backgrounds. Imagine a page-wide blink tag and you'd get a rough initial approximation. Remember most people couldn't be bothered to change the text's color from its default black, and you'd be starting to imagine the pain one felt when that was the only even remotely-related website Altavista could find.

Besides, for all the evils Flash has brought us, it also gave us Portal: The Flash Version which helps balance things out.

Re:Oh well

[jerdo]

The difference being that shitty flash sites are done by companies that you might actually need information from/about. While the Geocities and Angelfire sites were more for look at my cat type of sites.

Re:Oh well

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. Take a look at [not if you are epileptic] this site (German). I still don't know if it's a joke or not.

But I still don't like flash, mainly because it's not standardized and because of it's insecurity.

Re:Oh well

[Pentium100]

The 64bit plugin was discontinued without alternative.

I think that's good news actually. It means that Adobe realized that Flash should not use more than 2-4GB of RAM.

Re:Oh well

[h4rr4r]

If you had bought a Droid or Incredible you could have 2.2 now. Your fault.

Re:Oh well

[exomondo]

There are plenty of nicely designed Flash sites (though a pure HTML approach would be nice), but should we accept a Flash application max out a CPU

Why do you assume the HTML version would be better? From what i've seen of the benchmarks Flash performs much better than HTML5. Also in this age of multi-core CPUs who cares if a website thrashes one of your cores. These days we're moving to dual-core ARM chips in mobiles - where you don't do that much multi-tasking anyway - and many-core chips in desktops. If it thrashes one of your CPU cores then so what? Especially if it can't be done any better in HTML5 anyway.

Re:Oh well

[mjwx]

I have seen more cases of sloppy web design, UI design and lack of CPU optimisations in Flash than in other things I have used.

If you think these things are isolated to flash you are either delusional or retarded.

What you describe are the symptoms of bad development, not a bad framework. Take any framework, apply bad development and you'll get a crappy product.

I've used flash on my Android phone and it's fine. It's a little slow loading video over 3G but that's mainly due to a crappy HSPA network and the associated high latency. Once loaded games and video's were quite responsive and didn't drain my battery any faster then using the built in video player.

Rant all you like, but ultimately you're doing nothing to fix the problem, if you kill flash all the bad development will move the next closest thing.

Re:Oh well

[exomondo]

The real worst is that a lot of those CPU eating flash applications are omnipresent ads.

But everyone is pushing HTML5 as a replacement, at least Flash is easy to block, though I'd prefer HTML5 on the basis that it's an open standard. The resources requirement stems from people wanting richer browsing experiences and until we have a 'scalable internet' (which is unlikely to happen), content developers creating low and high resource versions of their sites (more likely given the old days of low and high bandwidth websites) or developers catering for the lowest common denominator (unlikely) mobile devices will always suffer performance issues because that level of interactivity is just difficult to produce through a universal, platform-independent (hardware, not OS) framework on low-power devices.

Battery Murderer

[al3k]

I'm sure this will only improve the iPhone's awesome battery life! (iphone owner)

Re:Battery Murderer

[gmuslera]

Turning the phone off will save battery too. The point is having the option. And won't affect battery/performance if not activated, and not visiting a site with flash. Considering how much you have to do to reach that point (jailbreak phone, install flash, enable it in your browser, and actually visiting a site with flash) then you really want to get that functionality, battery or not. Same could be said about bright screen, gps, 3g or in general, or any app that takes cpu

Re:Like dropping a turd on the dinner table

[somersault]

I'm not Apple fan, but putting Flash on an iPhone4 is like going to a nice dinner party, getting wasted, jumping up on the table, dropping trou, and depositing a huge steamer right in the salad bowl.

You mean it lets you skip the salad and get straight to the good stuff?

It's just NASTY.

Ah, you kids and your crazy wicked sick gnarly talk..

Bugs in iOS4 that need to be fixed...

[AmazinglySmooth]

I'm convinced that Apple has put out iOS4 with at least one bug that users find mildly annoying (like failing to send emails with photos). That way once an exploit is discovered in the new OS release they have reasons for users to upgrade.

Not having flash...

[tacensi]

is the iPhone's main feature for me. But if you like it, nice to have the choice.

Re:Not having flash...

[Colonel Korn]

is the iPhone's main feature for me. But if you like it, nice to have the choice.

Why don't you use a rock or a jellybean, then?

Not having the choice to use Flash is a very stupid motivator in choosing a phone. It's like saying that you'd rather be unable to run because running can wear you out faster than walking, or that you don't want to be allowed to freely express yourself because that can be embarrassing.

Why give up the choice just because most of the time you would stick with one option? But the real question for me is this: why take such joy in giving up that choice? Why thank Apple for disallowing a feature that wouldn't hurt you at all, though it might only rarely help?

Re:Not having flash...

[BitZtream]

Because its a choice we're pretty confident in and have been for years?

We thank Apple because the shear popularity of the iPhone and its lack of Flash support means websites pretty much have to take notice or cut out a significant portion of their potential viewers.

Apples position with Flash on the iPhone is bigger than just 'its my choice to put flash on the iPhone' which you'd recognize if you weren't too caught up in 'omg I can't run flash so I can't also run flashblock' retardedness.

$20 says you use flashblock on your PC ... don't you?

As for 'disallowing a feature that wouldn't hurt you at all' then I'm going to guess you've been living in a very small room with no windows for the last 10 years or so as there are plenty of ways Flash (AND browser plugins in general) can hurt you a computer, ESPECIALLY a mobile device with all my contact information on it.

When you reduce the whole situation down to 'its a choice or its not a choice' then it sounds silly like you say. You have to be retarded to reduce it to that level though.

Re:Not having flash...

[Thundersnatch]

the shear popularity of the iPhone

Wow, there's an app for haircuts too?

Re:Not having flash...

[cowscows]

Agreed. Flash causes at least half of my webbrowsing headaches. I'm glad that somebody is taking steps to make it less relevant. Just like when Apple hurried along the death of the floppy drive by leaving it out of their computers starting with the iMac, they're doing the computer world a long-term service by helping us phase out flash more quickly.

The mobile computing world is much better off not being tied down by technology that doesn't even run well on desktop systems. Good riddance to Flash.

Re:Not having flash...

[willy_me]

But the real question for me is this: why take such joy in giving up that choice? Why thank Apple for disallowing a feature that wouldn't hurt you at all, though it might only rarely help?

If iOS users could access Flash then those website owners would have the option to ignore mobile users. "The current Flash website works" would be their response to requests for an optimized one. As it stands, without Flash support, website owners are given the choice to ignore all iOS users, create a dedicated app, or create a website version optimized for mobile devices.

Apple would prefer that website owners took the latter of the three choices. Forget Flash - just create a version that works well with mobile devices. Small screen, no mouse - it really requires a different design. When designing future websites be sure to "think mobile" during the design process. This is beneficial to users of all mobile web devices.

So by taking away "choice" in regards to Flash, Apple is pushing the industry to accommodate small mobile devices. This is good for everyone. I am glad Apple made this decision. But if I personally owned an iOS device I would want the option to use Flash. Guess I would have to jailbreak or purchase an Android device - but that is my choice. I am not mad at Apple for making theirs.

Re:Not having flash...

[sydneyfong]

Which part of "But if you like it, nice to have the choice" don't you understand?

Re:Like dropping a turd on the dinner table

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just NASTY^H^H^H^H^H flat-out the easiest way to make sure you don't get invited back to any more of those boring dinner parties. Not to mention that it gives them something to talk about at boring dinner parties for the next year or so, and a way to dismiss any lesser faux pas that guests may subsequently commit. You're doing yourself and them a huge favor. Really.

FTFY

Re:Like dropping a turd on the dinner table

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just NASTY^H^H^H^H^H flat-out the easiest way to make sure you don't get invited back to any more of those boring dinner parties. Not to mention that it gives them something to talk about at boring dinner parties for the next year or so, and a way to dismiss any lesser faux pas that guests may subsequently commit. You're doing yourself and them a huge favor. Really.

I must try this, before I have to endure another "champagne"-evening or "champagne drink".

It's like people who go out to eat and forget they're paying someone to serve them, but "play pretend etiquette" making retards of themselves.

"oh no", they say, "you cannot do this inhere"
"why not?", I reply.
"Because it's fancy"
"I'm paying this guy to give me an excellent experience who are you to kill my party?", while they look at you funny.
"If I want to shit in a bowl and have Jeeves here hold it with his pearly white gloves while I tip him to do it with pleasure, who are you to judge? This is how I dine out."

loads in a stopped state?

[dwightk]

how about doesn't load unless you ask it to, so that it doesn't hurt those other performance factors: load time and bandwidth.

Re:loads in a stopped state?

[Yvan256]

And RAM.

Re:loads in a stopped state?

[Skuld-Chan]

Watch the video - when he activated the content it took a fair amount of time to load ;).

Re:loads in a stopped state?

[jgtg32a]

That's what it does, it basically defaults to the same behavior that flashblock does for Firefox

Re:loads in a stopped state?

[Anonymous Coward]

He can't...

Re:loads in a stopped state?

[mjwx]

how about doesn't load unless you ask it to, so that it doesn't hurt those other performance factors: load time and bandwidth.

You mean exactly how it works on Android?

Basically it's like using Flashblock on firefox, so no flash ad's and you can use activate flash controls just by pressing them.

Curious...

[valeo.de]

I wonder how many people actually want Flash on their phones. I mean, Adobe have had more than a few years to optimise their player for the biggest sector of their market: the desktop, and they've failed completely. Even on my fairly beefy (Windows 7) desktop with gigs of ram and an abundance of free CPU cycles (read: 99% idle, only Chrome with flash running), the latest flash player chews up CPU like no man's business. (And yes, I've tried the betas and pre-releases, and they're just as bad...)

Perhaps I'm wrong in thinking that only a minority of people would want flash on their phones, or perhaps Adobe has stepped it up a gear and actually optimised flash player enough so that it won't drain down a handset's battery in a very short space of time. But considering that they often refuse to even comment on bug reports regarding performance (or a complete lack thereof), I'd be surprised if they have.

Re:Curious...

[Mongoose Disciple]

I don't think anyone wants Flash, per se, but they may well want content that's only available (or more easily available) in Flash.

Re:Curious...

[jgtg32a]

Flash sucks no doubt but lack of flash sucks even more.

Re:Curious...

[Skuld-Chan]

You have a seriously messed up computer. I'm on my work machine (2 gigs of ram, Windows 7 Flash 10.1 - and its an Dell Optiplex 745 with a 2 core Core 2 duo running at 2.4 GHz) and hulu in hd mode uses 15% of the cpu. My machine is nothing to brag about either.

Re:Curious...

[valeo.de]

You have a seriously messed up computer. I'm on my work machine (2 gigs of ram, Windows 7 Flash 10.1 - and its an Dell Optiplex 745 with a 2 core Core 2 duo running at 2.4 GHz) and hulu in hd mode uses 15% of the cpu. My machine is nothing to brag about either.

Then countless others users on Adobe's bug tracking system also have messed up computers. And considering that my tests were based on a fresh install of Windows 7 with lots of unnecessary crap disabled, I'm wondering whether you're either very lucky or whether Hulu (which I don't use) have found a way to stop Flash video decode taking up massive amount of resources...

Re:Curious...

[Actually, I do RTFA]

the latest flash player chews up CPU like no man's business

When doing what? H.264 decoding seems to run quick enough on my machine. Maybe you're trying to watch some Spark 3 stuff? Maybe Flash is configured poorly? Just like JavaScript can bring a machine to it's knees, sometimes, you have to block third-party things in Flash.

Re:Curious...

[valeo.de]

My use of Flash is limited: video only (YouTube, BBC iPlayer, Channel 4's 4oD and the occasional video review), and much of that is H.264. Flashblock keeps all the other crap away from me, thankfully. Now, you mention poor configuration, and I guess that's certainly a possibility: I wasn't aware that one needed to configure Flash for good performance. Unless you're talking about the minimal settings dialogue, wherein you can enable hardware acceleration... if that is what you're referring to, well, it's enabled and doesn't make much of a difference (~5% less CPU utilisation).

Re:Curious...

[Skuld-Chan]

I've tested it on a bunch of different sites though - Youtube, Vimeo etc - none seem to go above 20%. I'm using a no frills (came with the machine) Raedon X1550 video card - maybe that has something to do with it.

Re:Curious...

[valeo.de]

It's possibly down to the graphics chipset I've got in this machine (like yours, only no-frills Intel). However that doesn't explain why video decode in Windows Media Player, or VLC results in normal CPU utilisation and the same decoding done in Flash results in complete CPU over-utilisation, though.

I'd ask Adobe why my experience is so different to yours, however they deleted my account and bug report after I asked politely (in plain English) why they hadn't at least acknowledged my bug report four months after it was created... and I haven't been able to create another account from this IP address since.

Re:Curious...

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Now, you mention poor configuration, and I guess that's certainly a possibility: I wasn't aware that one needed to configure Flash for good performance.

I found once I limited the ability to save "Shared Objects" and access 3rd party (cross-site) code, Flash got better. It's not ridiculously cheap, but without the ability to track my video's, and that associated cost, it's better.

Same as AdBlock making the web faster.

Who needs flash? iPhone users dont!

[Servaas]

I have yet to find a single iPhone user who needs / wants flash, why are these people actually trying to make it work? Flash is a battery drain, awkward UI, etc etc. Why would anyone want to run it on an iPhone?

Re:Who needs flash? iPhone users dont!

[sosume]

Steve??? Is that you????

Re:Who needs flash? iPhone users dont!

[Anonymous Coward]

Awkward UI?
How can it have an awkward UI? You can create a .swf to have any sort of UI you want, even mimic iOS4.

Maybe you mean Flash, the program to create swfs, but that's not what got ported to iOS4 anyway.

Re:Who needs flash? iPhone users dont!

[calderra]

I wonder how many Apple users are desperately trying to find an excuse for Jobs' decisions when including flash on a mobile device really isn't that big of a deal, and as with the article, you can load the flash in a stopped state so it doesn't affect performance if you don't want it.

Re:Who needs flash? iPhone users dont!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, a newbie! Welcome to /. First time here, never finding a single iphone user Flash wanter ever.

Maybe that's because most iphone and ipad users couldn't tell you when they were using Flash on a normal computer. If you told them to look at loaded or installed plugins, they'd look at you clueless. If you told them to right-click on an image or video, they'd think it was the greatest thing that sometimes there were options they didn't know about. Most of these people also use Firefox because someone told them to, so at least there is a saving grace or three somewhere there.

And there are many people I know who didn't buy an ipad because of the lack of Flash. I waited for the ipad, and bought a laptop within 3 months after its release because of the lack of Flash.

btw, I'm a loner with very few acquaintances. So I wouldn't be on /. boasting you couldn't find a single person who needs or wants Flash.

Re:Who needs flash? iPhone users dont!

[Anonymous Coward]

So you actually went up to a bunch of people with iP* devices and asked them (assuming they understood what Flash is, as a good chunk of users might not actually realize why certain content isn't displaying)? I guess nobody visits movie sites and wonders why they're getting a gimped experience (if any at all).

And how does Flash itself have an awkward UI? Flash is a content engine, just like HTML5. The author is pretty much solely responsible for how it looks / behaves.

Also, when they did that sidescrolling shmup (shmsideways?) game HTML5 demo a few weeks ago, I tested both on my Nexus One and my Desktop.

Flash was *MORE* efficient than HTML5. The HTML5 version was simpler (one scrolling background, ships that didn't rotate, line-based bullets). The comparative Flash one I picked from NewGrounds had two layers of backgrounds, ships that rotated as they flew around, sprite based bullets. The flash one had generally more sprites on the screen at a time. Both sucked up about 40-50% maximum of my CPU (on a 5 year old rig).

At the same time, when I tested on my Nexus One, the Flash ran precisely the same as the desktop (abliet slower since it's optimized for a desktop experience). The HTML5 version? The game screwed up when you died. All objects would disappear off the screen as if it were resetting the playing field for a new ship, but nothing reappeared and the background just kept going.

Picking nits, the HTML5 one worked only with the keyboard while the Flash used the mouse and autofired. I could play the Flash on my phone by dragging my ship around where I wanted. HTML5 only supported keyboard, so I was unable to move on the phone. (Precisely my point about HTML5/flash being a content engine, but since you ignore that, so am I)

Under your same argument, why would you want HTML5 on any phone? HTML5 is MORE of a battery drain (assuming desktop->Mobile CPU usage remains the same), more of an awkward UI, doesn't even work the same across all browsers (and doesn't warn you about incompatibilities -- it just doesn't work), etc etc.

Re:Who needs flash? iPhone users dont!

[Anonymous Coward]

I would mostly agree with you, except that when is having more choice ever really a bad thing?
HTML5 is nice, and hopefully they'll officially set the standard soon so that people will want to use it.
However, if I go to a page that isn't HTML5 compatible, I want to have the option of making it work anyway.

Re:Who needs flash? iPhone users dont!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hulu on the go, without limits (see the terrible Hulu Plus iPhone app). That said, I don't want Flash but I can understand why people would want it.

Re:Who needs flash? iPhone users dont!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

I WANT FLASH on my iPhone.

Nice to meet you.

Statement in now FALSE.

Old news... w/ Frash we could do it for a while

[RJarett]

Ive had flash on my iPad for a while now. Frash lets you do it pretty easily.

Re:Old news... w/ Frash we could do it for a while

[mzs]

This is Frash, in fact the link that should have been included in the story should have been to the Frash github (this IS slashdot after all not gizmodo) http://github.com/comex/frash

Also until recently Frash only ran on iPad, like you state, but now it is getting better on iPod Touches and iPhones of a couple generations as well, so that's new and worthwhile info.

Is this full Flash

[AHuxley]

Can you run a web cam on it or more for web page layout?
Web video calling ...

flash might not be great...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think anyone is singing flash's praises. You could certainly raise a of a lot of objections to HTTP, and the world wide web in general, but no one releasing a device that didn't support HTML would act like it was a good thing: the standard exists, and a hell of a lot of people use flash, for better or for worse. The issue is that Apple, once again, is making a user's decisions for them. Many things come without flash preinstalled: I had to install it on my eeepc, for example. But I COULD install it. It's not even a matter of open source principle: I just don't want to buy a product that I can't do with as I see fit. Granted, Apple needs to behave this way to play to their chosen market niche, but they're taking it a little far.

Re:flash might not be great...

[valeo.de]

I can understand Apple not wanting Flash in their walled-garden. Adobe can't even optimise the desktop player (on Windows no less) so that it doesn't chew up all/close to all available CPU cycles. I'm guessing the reason it's not even a choice left to the user is that Apple don't want to field the inevitable complaints (they've got enough of their own to deal with, heh). That said, users can and do shoot themselves in the foot all the time, so I agree with you: there should be a choice, and that choice should not be Apple's.

Not Strong Bad

[Meneth]

I know he's the reason everyone goes to the site, but, unfortunately, Strong Bad didn't appear in this Flash demo at all. They only showed the speech-impeded athlete, Homestar Runner.

Uhmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

How exactly do you install a binary that was never compiled for iPhone?

You compile it for iPhone...

And how the ef you compile a closed-source app?

I didn't know one could casually the sources to Flash, if not a corporation part of the Open Screen group.

Re:Uhmm...

[petermgreen]

Following the links in TFA apparently they used the android build of flash with some kind of compatibility layer.

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[valeo.de]

Just because the vocal minority wants Flash on their Android phones, does not mean that we all do...

I for one will be removing anything Flash-related should it be pushed in my next firmware update.

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[sssssss27]

You haven't been paying attention. I've had Flash on my HTC EVO since almost day one and I don't even have a rooted phone.

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[Anonymous Coward]

The iOS flash "port" is really just a wrapper around the Android Flash Player to make it work on iOS. This is only possible since the devices use the same sort of CPU. So without Android Flash, there would be no iOS flash :)

No "Android pod touch"

[tepples]

It's really only a matter of time before developers jump ship for Android

Android devices without an integrated mobile phone don't have Android Market, and the one that was recommended for a while (Archos 5) is stuck on an ancient version of Android. So as I understand it, Android 2.x has no close counterpart to the iPod touch for someone who doesn't want yet another monthly phone bill.

Re:No "Android pod touch"

[hedwards]

Nexus One, does that. It's pricy, but you can even use it as a phone without any monthly bills. Either via pay as you go or using it completely via wifi and VoIP. Or you can ditch the phone component all together and use it as a iPod replacement.

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[jittles]

Both the Android browser (Chrome?) and Safari use webkit, if I am not mistaken. They are both on ARM processors as well. I imagine they were able to take the flash plugin from Android and put a wrapper around it to get it to work with Safari. Also, flash has been available on the Evo since day 1. I personally don't care much for it but a lot of people seem to be interested in it for android, at least from what I've read on forums.

Flash is finally in the iPhone

[gmuslera]

now the Justice League is trying to rescue him.

What alternative to Flash?

[tepples]

What do you recommend that web animation series such as Homestar Runner and Weebl and Bob use instead of Flash? Authoring in Flash and rendering to H.264 or WebM would only make it ten times bigger.

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[Skuld-Chan]

A lot of this is quality assurance - it takes a lot of time to test and integrate all the device drivers in Android so that they work near perfect as possible. Its not like slapping a linux distro onto a white box and calling it a day ;).

Cisco?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this tagged cisco?

Nexus One is sold out

[tepples]

Nexus One

In this page, Google wrote:

The Nexus One is no longer available for purchase directly from Google. For more information on how to purchase the Nexus One, check out our help center.

In this page, Google wrote:

The Nexus One is no longer available for direct purchase from Google, but is available through Brightstar for sale to registered developers. Please note that Brightstar's Nexus One purchase page is only accessible to registered developers.

So in order to buy an Android phone without a contract, you have to plan to develop software for sale on Android Market. Not everybody who wants a counterpart to iPod Touch that runs Android is interested in developing software for sale on Android Market.

Re:Nexus One is sold out

[RMH101]

Huh? What's stopping you going down the high street, buying an android phone and using that? Or developing using the SDK?
Google have stopped selling the Nexus One because now the carriers have STARTED selling it. At least in the UK you couldn't throw a brick whilst out shopping without breaking the window of a shop selling the Nexus One, Desire, Wildfire, Legend, Galaxy S, Dell Streak etc etc.

Re:Nexus One is sold out

[tepples]

What's stopping you going down the high street, buying an android phone and using that?

What's stopping me is the $2,000 contract that comes with it. As I wrote in this post, I don't "want yet another monthly phone bill."My current phone is an Audiovox 8610 for which I pay 7.13 USD per month to Virgin Mobile USA because I use it for urgencies. I highly doubt that the local T-Mobile store will sell me a Nexus One for use with one of its prepaid plans.

I just visited T-Mobile's online store, and Search Results for Nexus One states: "Looking for the latest Android device from Google? Pricing and product details on the Nexus One can be found at www.google.com/phone." That page gave me the error message I mentioned in this post. So it appears that in the United States of America, the Nexus One is truly sold out.

At least in the UK

I live in the United States, where pay-as-you-go plans are associated with low-end feature phones.

Re:Nexus One is sold out

[Anonymous Coward]

Get one on ebay? Huh from expansys and get them to ship it? If you were considering buying the Google development phone the cost is the same as an subsidised handset.

Re:Nexus One is sold out

[squiggleslash]

So in order to buy an Android phone without a contract, you have to plan to develop software for sale on Android Market.

...or buy it from T-Mobile. You can buy unsubsidized, contract-free, phones from T-Mobile (the great thing is if you do buy the phone unsubsidized, the plans are cheaper now too.)

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So in order to buy an Android phone without a contract, you have to plan to develop software for sale on Android Market.

...or buy it from T-Mobile. You can buy unsubsidized, contract-free, phones from T-Mobile (the great thing is if you do buy the phone unsubsidized, the plans are cheaper now too.)

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Re:Nexus One is sold out

[tepples]

You can buy unsubsidized, contract-free, phones from T-Mobile

But the Nexus One is not among the eligible handsets. I searched for Nexus One and got the error message in my previous comment.

Re:Nexus One is sold out

[squiggleslash]

Well, sure, phones do sell out or cease being made or just stop being sold. You made the comment that your concern was being tied to a multi-thousand dollar contract if you buy one, but it sounds to me that the issue is that you can't buy it, not that you can but you need to agree to a contract whose objectionable aspect is the price to have it.

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[bemymonkey]

It's an optional download. AFAIK just the plugin framework was added in the browser with Froyo...

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[RMH101]

Huh? Flash Lite ships with Desire running 2.1, and the genuine Froyo HTC ROM with full flash is out now. Community ROMs from XDA have had Froyo for the Desire for a couple of months.

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[bemymonkey]

Which is why I bought a Desire (for running a custom Froyo ROM) about a week before Froyo was officially released for it.

Flash Lite is, however, not Flash.

Thats like saying....

[xmorg]

Microsoft Access, exported to Oracle.

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[bemymonkey]

Ah, good to know. Guess they needed pros to do the hard work too :D

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[duguk]

Just because the vocal minority wants Flash on their Android phones, does not mean that we all do...

I for one will be removing anything Flash-related should it be pushed in my next firmware update.

The Nokia N900 does it well. Flash support, but it's easily disabled, and there's this plugin called Flashblock, and there's something called Adblock as well. Pretty useful for those few sites that NEED Flash.

Why reinvent what Firefox has already done quite well?

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[valeo.de]

I use both extensions (Flashblock and AdBlock) with Chrome for exactly that reason. If I had the choice, I'd not have Flash installed on my desktop, alas there are some things that it is an absolute must for at the moment (like BBC iPlayer). I refuse to have it installed on my phone, though; Adobe's security track record is too poor for my liking, so my Samsung Galaxy S shall have to remain without that particular attack vector.

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with Firefox though, but since I don't use it, I guess that is moot. ;)

Re:Everyone sing! C'mon, you know the words!

[TheRaven64]

Come on mods, this isn't off-topic - it's the Strongbadia national anthem, which is on-topic as Strong Bad was mentioned in the original post as the demo flash thing that they used.

Re:Are you f***ing kidding me?

[duguk]

Adobe's security track record is too poor for my liking

I agree entirely, but there's nothing quite so frustrating as needing information off a website that insists on using Flash. VNCing/RDPing to a remote machine from a phone just to get some info would be silly - but I've had to do it before!

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with Firefox though, but since I don't use it, I guess that is moot. ;)

Just that the Nokia N900 uses a Firefox-compatible... thingy... that has the normal add-ons. Rather than having a specific 'mobile browser' (although there are plenty of options); using the same systems as Firefox makes sense to me.

Just because you don't want Flash on your phone doesn't mean it's not a necessity sometimes, as annoying as that might be! =]

That's great!

[Seth Kriticos]

Now you can advertise this new functionality:

"Did you vacuum brake? Then install Flash on your iPhone: it will suck like nothing you have seen before!"

or

"Like all those little security holes that pop up on the iPhone lately? Then install Flash on it and you'll get an entire trench!"

Misguided Angst

[Layth]

It requires the purchase of different rights if you want to stream content to a mobile device (at least that's what I read on the internet somewhere)

Works good on 3GS

[Anonymous Coward]

Overall the performance was pretty good. Its still in beta, but I am glad someone is porting it. I am going to donate some money to Comex for his hard work.

In Cydia, just go to manage=>Sources=>Edit=>add=>http://repo.benm.at
^^ this is the easiest way to give it a try

Re:Incoming sopssa/SquarePixel/odies trolling ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess its not only digg patrons that try to silence other peoples opinions. Groupthink is strong here too..
 

Flash lite

[gilesjuk]

You're talking about Flash lite or simple standalone players. Not 9 or 10.

Nothing as big and complex at desktop flash. I had a flash player for a phone in 2002, but it was pretty basic and slow.

Flash / crossdomain.xml

[Anonymous Coward]

Just what I want, HTTP GET requests for crossdomain.xml popping out of my iPhone every time I click on something and my iPhone appearing to crash because of all of the related network connections. Not. Flash is dead end bloatware. Youtube and CNN just haven't realized it yet.

Dice Wars!

[orn]

Dice Wars!

http://www.gamedesign.jp/flash/dice/dice.html

I'll never buy and iphone game again. Screw the App Store.

Re:Everyone sing! C'mon, you know the words!

[ooshna]

Its off-topic because everyone knows that Trogdor is so much better.

Default password on open ssh WTF!???

[Kyusaku Natsume]

The people that does this and don't do anything about changing the password will be really owned, it is already enough bad that Apple after all this time didn't fix the severe remote execution hole in iOS and now this guys are posting without any warning that people install openSSH with default settings.

Ackward Flash UI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Flash doesn't have a UI per se. Developers can create any UI they want.

Please check http://www.scaleform.com/ for a few (600 games and counting) games that use flash for UI.

Now tell me its awkward...

Flash doesn't kill UI, designers do...

Discontinued in favor of what?

[tepples]

phones do sell out or cease being made or just stop being sold.

So if the Nexus One has been discontinued, please allow me to rephrase my original question:

Most well-known Android devices compete with iPhone. Can you recommend an Android counterpart to the iPod Touch, that is, a device with a recent version of Android OS that I can buy new throughout the United States without it being tied to a mobile phone service contract?

Re:Discontinued in favor of what?

[squiggleslash]

There's a zillion options, I personally use the T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide. It costs around $450 (officially, $350 if you hunt around) unsubsidized.

To that, you probably want it unlocked, in which case you'll have to subscribe T-Mobile for three months (~$75pm, so $215) and ask them to unlock it after that.

The Slide has 2.1, with a 2.2 update "RSN". If you can't wait, there are instructions for loading the Cyanogen variant on the Internet, I believe (I haven't tried it.) You can get a start on rooting the box from T-Mobile's Operating System and Software Development forum (yeah, that's TMo's own forums.)

Just to re-iterate, this is the phone I, and my wife, use. I am not on a contract, I can cancel at any time without penalties, I bought both phones without signing a contract, and because I bought it outright, my plan costs around $20pm less than it would cost if I had bought it subsidized. I'm not going to especially recommend the Slide over any other Android phone T-Mobile offers, the Samsung Vibrant has apparently got a lot of good press, and, well, go to T-Mobile's site and browse the Android phones and you'll see the choices.

O/T

[bryan1945]

Trogdor!

What steve thinks about all this...

[Anonymous Coward]

See this video at about 00:20 for what Steve Jobs thinks about Flash on iPhone 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27zdtKbnv_c