Countering a DMCA Takedown In the Magnet Wars

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Countering a DMCA Takedown In the Magnet Wars

Posted by kdawson on Thursday September 23, 2010 @12:42AM from the not-attractive dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Zen Magnets, a maker of neodymium magnet toys, has been under assault by the much larger and better distributed Buckyballs, maker of a nearly identical toy. After Zen Magnets listed a couple of eBay auctions with a set of Buckyballs and a set of their own, asking customers to decide which was of higher quality, Buckyballs replied with a legal threat. Zen Magnets countered with an open video response, in which they presented the voicemail from Buckyballs and demonstrated their claims of quality through repeatable, factual tests, providing quantitative data to back up their assertions. Soon after, Buckyballs CEO Jake Bronstein got the video taken down from YouTube via a DMCA takedown, despite the fact that the only elements not made by Zen Magnets are the voicemail he left and some images of himself, which are low-resolution and publicly available online. Zen Magnets has decided to file a counter-takedown notice — not effective yet apparently, since the video is still marked as taken down." Slashdot's sister company ThinkGeek sells Buckyballs. No, we don't get kickbacks, but we totally should.
Update: 09/23 13:23 GMT by KD : Reader Coopjust (872796) points out one place where the disputed video has been mirrored.

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bullcrap by Pojut · 2010-09-23 00:44 · Score: 5, Insightful

I think this is an abuse of the DMCA (some would argue that any use of it is abuse, but that's a different topic.) If they can back up their assertions with data and repeatable demonstrations, quit yer bitchin' and make a better product.

--
Living With a Nerd
1. Re:bullcrap by Pojut · 2010-09-23 00:53 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I have learned to include "I think" or "in my opinion" on Slashdot, regardless of what the topic is. I'd rather respond to posts like yours instead of "stop acting like your opinion is fact."
  
  --
  Living With a Nerd
2. Re:bullcrap by hedwards · 2010-09-23 00:53 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Clearly you're not American and haven't been to America in a really long time. This is the way that corporations work. They could make a better product, but it's usually cheaper to abuse the court system or buy out the competition.
3. Re:bullcrap by erroneus · 2010-09-23 00:59 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Does the DMCA offer any immunity to civil lawsuits for damages resulting from a [false/abusive] DMCA takedown notice? If not, then the answer here would seem to be simple. I think the plaintiff can prove through a preponderance of evidence that the issuer of the notice knew it had no claim of copyright over any of the material in the video. This would prove the DMCA takedown notice was wilfully abused for the purpose of censorship damaging the plaintiff's business.
  They should definitely sue.
4. Re:bullcrap by HaZardman27 · 2010-09-23 01:02 · Score: 1
  
  His subject line is also "bullcrap," which would lead me to believe that he does understand that this is an obvious abuse and not just a possibility. Slashdot moderation sometimes forces you to use "weasel words" to avoid punishment for being opinionated.
  
  --
  Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
5. Re:bullcrap by Pojut · 2010-09-23 01:02 · Score: 1
  
  I never even thought about doing that...turning the DMCA on itself would certainly be interesting.
  And law nuts out there able to weigh in on this?
  
  --
  Living With a Nerd
6. Re:bullcrap by Sonny+Yatsen · 2010-09-23 01:04 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Well, unless what you're posting is, in fact, fact, I think.
  
  --
  My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
7. Re:bullcrap by Thanshin · 2010-09-23 01:05 · Score: 1
  
  Oh, I see.
  My retort is therefore reduced to: "I concur".
8. Re:bullcrap by djmurdoch · 2010-09-23 01:09 · Score: 1
  
  I haven't seen the video, but the summary said it included photos taken from some web page, presumably without permission of the copyright holder. It also played a private message left by the Buckyball owner, again presumably without his permission.
  Copyright in both photos and private messages remains with the creator by default, so there is a basis for a claim. It sounds from the summary that it was fair use, but apparently the copyright holder didn't think so, so it's not necessarily an abuse.
  Of course, a much more sane protocol is "notice and notice", but we're not talking about a sane law here.
9. Re:bullcrap by dziban303 · 2010-09-23 01:10 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Pretty much anything sold by Thinkgeek these days is poor quality. Buckyballs are apparently no different.
  Note: The above statement is presented as fact, not opinion.
  Let's see how long it takes for my comment to be removed.
10. Re:bullcrap by Maxo-Texas · 2010-09-23 01:12 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  The worst problem is in areas like Appliances where the company making cheap crap ("Whirlxxxx") buys out their higher quality competition ("Mayxxx"), and then starts producing cheap crap under the "Mayxxx" name.
  It has reached a point where it is impossible (as far as I can tell) to buy
  a dishwasher
  a hot water heater
  a washing machine
  That will last 20 years like they used to. The current dishwashers have electronics that are damaged by storms every 2-3 years. Some of the "money" parts are hard plastic so they wear out well before 10 years.
  It's better in some cases to buy used and spend big bucks getting the item repaired. Then at least you have a solid appliance.
  Please feel free to post if you've found a source for reliable (as in 20 year life span) major appliances.
  
  --
  She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
11. Re:bullcrap by grub · 2010-09-23 01:16 · Score: 1
  
  Pretty much anything sold by Thinkgeek these days is poor quality.
  
  Anything except BaconSalt or Baconaisse
  
  MMmmm... bacon....
  
  --
  Trolling is a art,
12. Re:bullcrap by NJRoadfan · 2010-09-23 01:17 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Mayxxx was making crap well before Whirlxxxx bought them out. This is based on first hand experience. People want cheap cheap cheap, so the design choices you mentioned were made to reach a price point.
13. Re:bullcrap by RattFink · 2010-09-23 01:19 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  The penalty is right in the notice. All proper DCMA take down request require this:
  
  I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
  
  A false or abusive notice can land the petitioner on the hook for perjury. The problem is getting it prosecuted and making the charges stick.
  
  --
  "I don't necessarily agree with everything I say." - Marshall McLuhan
14. Re:bullcrap by Teancum · 2010-09-23 01:21 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  It is an interesting concept. The trick here would be to prove damages, although it is possible to file a libel tort if the assertion of copyright infringement was knowingly false. Because there was technically copyrighted material involved that was owned by Buckyballs, I don't think this assertion would work in court. Yes, the content is being reproduced under clear fair-use standards, which is precisely why the counter notice was issued. That process is spelled out very clearly in the DMCA and to me is one of the few good things in that legislation (surrounded by a whole bunch of evil text).
  Basically an ISP must respond to a take-down notice, but if a protest if filed then the content must be restored and the matter goes to a court for resolution. Of course companies like YouTube may not be entirely friendly about the process and may lean a little more toward taking stuff down rather than restoring it. It may even take a lawsuit against the ISP to "educate" them about what the DMCA actually says. This can get tricky though, as restoring the content which is later proven to be infringing in court can bring penalties that may be increased due to the content being restored. It definitely is time to hire an attorney if this kind of chest thumping starts to happen and you care about whatever it is that is getting yanked around on the net.
15. Re:bullcrap by Jawnn · 2010-09-23 01:22 · Score: 1
  
  Abuse? Sure, but that's what judicial process has been reduced in the U.S. - a tool by which well-funded litigants can bully and abuse those who lack the resources to fully defend themselves. Sounds all "18th Century Europe", doesn't it?
16. Re:bullcrap by Jawnn · 2010-09-23 01:27 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  "The Wal-Mart Effect" is the name for what you describe. See here and here for a wonderfully informative story on how it works.
17. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:29 · Score: 0
  
  Voicemail is a KNOWN recording by BOTH parties (VM system/Receiver and person talking)
18. Re:bullcrap by Dragon+Bait · 2010-09-23 01:32 · Score: 1
  
  I concur about Whirl*** ... one of their subsidiaries made our oven (came with the house) -- nearly burned the house down. Seems that there are 10's of similar models that the company was forced to recall for similar problems. Since our explicit model wasn't recalled, they told us to pound sand.
  From having nearly everything Whirl**** or May*** or subsidiary, we have replaced our washer/drier with LG, our refrigerator/freezer with LG, and our stove with a small independent brand.
  It's too early for your 10 year test. I do know I would never buy a front load clothes washer again (they don't air out and get moldy).
19. Re:bullcrap by DrgnDancer · 2010-09-23 01:32 · Score: 1
  
  Phone messages left on *my* answering machine (or more likely voice mail) are *my* property. You're automatically consenting to recording, because that's what voice mail *does*. That's not even effective weaseling. The photo's maybe. Depends who took them and whether Buckeyballs has standing to request their take down (fair use or not). If the photos are AP news pics or something, then Buckeyballs doesn't own them and can't demand their take down. Just because a picture is *of* you doesn't mean you own it. If Zen Magnets took the photos from the Buckeyballs website, it's reasonable that the company has at least some standing to ask for their removal. It's probably fair use, and likely would fail, but at the least it couldn't be considered abusive.
  
  --
  I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
20. Re:bullcrap by Pojut · 2010-09-23 01:32 · Score: 1
  
  The bacon salt is freakin' AMAZING. It goes super well with green beans (though it isn't as good as green beans with Old Bay seasoning...tough to beat Old Bay!)
  
  --
  Living With a Nerd
21. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 01:34 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  In my opinion it's not "abuse" unless youtube refuses to restore the video.
  You see under DMCA law, youtube has no choice. If they receive a request they MUST take down the material. Youtube is not supposed to make judgment calls on the validity of the request. Step 2 is to submit the anti-takedown request which youtube must also obey and restore the material (or else fce a lawsuit). Step 3 is for the offended company to either take it to court.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
22. Re:bullcrap by Bill_the_Engineer · 2010-09-23 01:34 · Score: 1
  
  This is not an American only attribute. Just look at the EU.
  Anyway I agree that American companies have a higher profile, but that's because we have an over abundance of lawyers here. Maybe we should start exporting them.
  
  --
  These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
23. Re:bullcrap by Bill_the_Engineer · 2010-09-23 01:38 · Score: 1
  
  It's much worse than that!
  Private equity funds purchase once great brands and marginalize them for profit. Take a look at some of the mattress companies.
  
  --
  These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
24. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 01:38 · Score: 1
  
  >>>it's usually cheaper to abuse the court system or buy out the competition.
  Are European corporations any different? As I recall it was a European corporation (Opera) that sued Microsoft in order to gain competitive advantage. IIRC there was also an attempt by an European corporation to stop the Sun-Oracle merger.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
25. Re:bullcrap by Thansal · 2010-09-23 01:42 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  It isn't youtube people are calling abuse on, it's the company issuing the DMCA take down...
  
  --
  Do Or Do Not, There Is No Spoon, There Is Only Zuul. Everything in the above post is probably opinion.
26. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 01:42 · Score: 1
  
  >>>It's better in some cases to buy used
  Or just buy the cheap $250 appliance (sale price) which may not have all the gee-whiz features but is simple in design, and that simplicity makes it last longer. When I worked in Sears I never understood those persons that dropped $1000 or more on a machine that goes in the basement
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
27. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:42 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Bravo! I applaud this. Too many individuals on Slashdot post comments with such conviction, yet they know nothing about the topic at hand. Too many uneducated rationalizations.
28. Re:bullcrap by whisper_jeff · 2010-09-23 01:43 · Score: 1
  
  Just because it's being recorded does not mean the person speaking is giving permission for the recording to be broadcast.
29. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:44 · Score: 0
  
  I just buy used washers/driers on craigslist for $50-$100, WHEN one breaks I buy a new one. I am on my 3rd set in 3 years, but I gave one set away to a friend in need. It is a small sample, but i seem to get about 2 years of use out of them.
  When a new washer-dryer costs $3k-$6k, it works out much cheaper in lifetime costs.
30. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:44 · Score: 0
  
  >>>it's usually cheaper to abuse the court system or buy out the competition.
  Are European corporations any different? As I recall it was a European corporation (Opera) that sued Microsoft in order to gain competitive advantage. IIRC there was also an attempt by an European corporation to stop the Sun-Oracle merger.
  Opera did not come bundled with Windows, IE did.
  The Sun-Oracle merge has been proven to be bad.
31. Re:bullcrap by moronoxyd · 2010-09-23 01:45 · Score: 1
  
  Phone messages left on *my* answering machine (or more likely voice mail) are *my* property. You're automatically consenting to recording,
  But does this automatically imply my consent for this recording to be broadcast?
32. Re:bullcrap by TheLink · 2010-09-23 01:45 · Score: 1
  
  Slashdot moderation sometimes forces you to use "weasel words" to avoid punishment for being opinionated.
  Many Slashdotters are very particular about getting things correct, and there are those who have Aspergers, OCD, etc.
  So some of us would only leave out the "I think" weaseling for stuff like "1+1=2" (others might still add disclaimers ;) ).
  It's not just restricted to Slashdot - look at all those scientific _theories_ out there.
  --
  
  Too many replies beneath your current threshold
33. Re:bullcrap by dandart · 2010-09-23 01:47 · Score: 1
  
  Exactly. Companies should learn that what counts is to make a BETTER product, not take down the opposition. It's far better to be loved and to be chosen. than to be hated and forced.
  
  Now, who have we seen playing those dirty tactics? *cough*microsoft*cough*
34. Re:bullcrap by Pojut · 2010-09-23 01:49 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  This is the approach we took when buying a new printer. We looked into getting invitations for our wedding done professionally, and after seeing how much it cost, we just picked up some decent looking invitations from Michael's and went out to buy a new printer (it ended up costing about 1/4th what it would have cost to get them done professionally...and we got a printer out of it!)
  We went with a Brother HL-2170W. $90 for a wireless laser printer, and it works AMAZINGLY well. Toner is super cheap (the extended carts can be found for $40, and last for ~2,200 pages under real world applications), the wireless was super simple to set up, it's quiet and fast...a great investment.
  We didn't care about bells and whistles, we didn't care about color, or a copier, or "PC-free printing"...we just wanted a wireless laser printer that did nothing but print. This thing is easily the best printer I've ever owned.
  
  --
  Living With a Nerd
35. Re:bullcrap by value_added · 2010-09-23 01:53 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Please feel free to post if you've found a source for reliable (as in 20 year life span) major appliances.
  How's "Miele" for a start?
  Most anything they sell will give you a good 20 years of service, and if not, the construction and quality of materials is such that a rebuild (motor, etc.) is worth the money and trouble. I've heard Steve Jobs opted for Miele washing machines and dryers. Could have been an aesthetic choice, but folks buying a BMW or a Porsche may be doing the same.
  If a stove is what you want, then try something from a manufacturer like Wolf. There's no reason a good quality stove shouldn't last you 50 years or more.
  All in all, it depends on how much money you want to spend. And how willing you are to shop somewhere other than the local mall. We live in a Walmart world where convenience and price reign supreme for most people, so any meaningful discussion of quality is typically among the "select few". Put another way, I have to make a special trip to buy my vacuum cleaner bags. ;-)
36. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 01:56 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  I know it's fun to make fun of Walmart but I admire their philosophy.
  "The vice president's office was furnished with a folding lawn chair and a chaise lounge." i.e. Cutting costs. Saving money. Perhaps if US citizens and more importantly the US Congress adopted the same "live within your means" philosophy, we would not have a national debt equal to $140,000 per household (plus another $90,000 of personal mortgage/credit card debt on top of that). Having ~230,000 average debt per home is not sustainable.
  Also I'm not sure why the Snapper CEO felt intimidated (saying he literally started sweating). I certainly would not. The Walmart VP is a man and nothing more.
  .
  >>>"(Wal-Mart won't help you out with repairing broken mowers)"
  Flat wrong. When my car broke down, Walmart towed me into their garage and found the problem (dead battery). While there I mentioned I had a broken weed eater and the mechanic said they repair lawn appliances too. If this Snapper story couldn't get that bit of the story correct, I suspect the rest is wrong (or embellished) as well.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
37. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:56 · Score: 0
  
  Zanussi
38. Re:bullcrap by grub · 2010-09-23 01:56 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  I was a vegetarian for about 10 years (ending over 15 ago) for no particular reason.
  
  But bacon... oh bacon... It would call to me in my dreams. Sizzling bacon strips with arms and legs and breasts moaning seductively "Eat me, grub!"
  
  Then the dream that ended it all. I was tied to a slab of salt pork while a giant bacon strip wearing a pig mask and sporting a large bacon penis assaulted me.
  
  So when friends today ask why I quit being a vegetarian I don't tell them about the anal and oral rape. I just shrug my shoulders sheepishly.
  
  MMmm... bacon.
  
  --
  Trolling is a art,
39. Re:bullcrap by Jaysyn · 2010-09-23 01:56 · Score: 1
  
  My family has had excellent luck with Whirlpool appliances. My mother just replaced her 15 year old Whirlpool range with another Whirlpool range, because she wanted one with a double oven. Her fridge is also a Whirlpool & is at least 13 years old & going strong. The older range & fridge are still alive & well at my younger brother house.
  
  --
  There is a war going on for your mind.
40. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:57 · Score: 0
  
  Opera did not come bundled with Windows, IE did.
  So what! IE ROOLZ!!!
41. Re:bullcrap by Jaysyn · 2010-09-23 01:59 · Score: 1
  
  You are incorrect. The Alien Goo & Sockmonkeys are of the highest quality.
  
  --
  There is a war going on for your mind.
42. Re:bullcrap by Pojut · 2010-09-23 01:59 · Score: 1
  
  Now, who have we seen playing those dirty tactics? *cough*microsoft*cough*
  Not so much anymore...people are getting pretty tired of them (a good friend of mine works at a fairly busy Apple store, and he told me that, easily, a quarter of their customers are first-time Mac buyers who are just tired of fucking with Windows.) I think Microsoft is now in a position (or very close to it) where they really do have to start leaving a good impression and not just riding the "I'm using it cause everyone else is" wave.
  
  --
  Living With a Nerd
43. Re:bullcrap by AnAdventurer · 2010-09-23 02:03 · Score: 1
  
  Do quick read of the ownership of North Face.
  
  --
  6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
44. Re:bullcrap by Elros · 2010-09-23 02:07 · Score: 1
  
  That's your experience. They stole a tire from me.
45. Re:bullcrap by Maxo-Texas · 2010-09-23 02:07 · Score: 1
  
  1) We ran into that 3 years ago. It's not lack of features (I use "normal" dish wash cycle only, okay-- my fridge has an icemaker). It's the manufacture. Instead of a cheap dial, you get an electronic button labeled "normal" and that electronic button (no joke- from experience) costs $250 to fix. I'm very lucky to have gotten a dial dishwasher.
  I can't understand why people pay so much for appliances myself. My washer/dryer ran about $900, my fridge was $700, my dishwasher was $300ish back in 1998.
  Cheap appliances that are too cheap have a replacement cost tho. It's non-trivial to change out a dishwasher. The stove wasn't too bad. After my friend's stove broke (after 28 years), I replaced the stove in about 30 minutes with one from craigslist.
  
  --
  She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
46. Re:bullcrap by Runaway1956 · 2010-09-23 02:08 · Score: 1
  
  Hey - I'm as opinionated as anyone around here. And, to be honest, I don't always have the knowledge and/or experience to back up my opinions. That doesn't stop me at all! I tell 'em what I think, and sometimes, they prove me wrong, sometimes people agree with me. I don't worry about karma at all - I just express my opinion. Know what? I still have excellent karma! Wanna buy some? How does 50 USD per gram sound? ;^)
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
47. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:08 · Score: 0
  
  Its not the Walmart effect, its basic economics and it is called the Law of Diminishing Returns.
  What the GP forgets to mention is those washers that lasted 20 years were expensive, energy wasting, water wasting, and made from an obscene amount of raw materials. Not to mention they cost a huge percentage of disposable income.
  Sure you can buy a $1000 washer that will probably break when the electronics get zapped, or you can by a $250 GE piece of crap that will work fine for 5-10 years until you have to get another one, this time for $225.
  The Good Ole' Times where not as great as people remember and a basic understanding of economics will save you a lot of frustration.
48. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:09 · Score: 1
  
  >>>Does the DMCA offer any immunity to civil lawsuits for damages resulting from a [false/abusive] DMCA takedown notice?
  Yes. Because the DMCA offers a solution to abusive notices - file an anti-takedown Reinstatement Request and your video gets put back up. The end.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
49. Re:bullcrap by saider · 2010-09-23 02:10 · Score: 1
  
  My Ken**** washer and dryer has given me about 11 years of service and I only had one $65 service call to fix a broken pressure sensor in the washer.
  
  --
  
  Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
50. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:10 · Score: 0
  
  Oh Snap Slashdot!
  The Wal-Mart of Geekdom
51. Re:bullcrap by PseudonymousBraveguy · 2010-09-23 02:11 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  How's "Miele" for a start?
  Second that. Miele is one of the last german appliances manufacturer who are still producing in Germany and were not bought out by some cheap Whirl***-alike company. Prepare to pay a little more than usual, though.
52. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:12 · Score: 0
  
  Yes, I have an almost 20 year old GE "Filter-Flo" washing machine with a clutch drive and a honking huge transmission. Enameled steel insides. I don't see this tank failing any time soon, and when the clutch starts to slip, I can repair it myself. It's not fun, but you can take the motor out, disassemble the clutch and either get new shoes from eBay or just glue on new shoe pads (dense random cork pads seem to work).
  But it "uses" too much water, an easily renewable substance. Instead, we should buy front loaders filled with cheap, exotic, unrepairable materials and have them shipped halfway around the world from China, and watch them break about two seconds after the one-year warranty. That is apparently better for the environment.
53. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:12 · Score: 1
  
  >>>Phone messages left on *my* answering machine (or more likely voice mail) are *my* property.
  False. If the message is copyrighted (and most are by default), then ownership remains with the original person. For example, you do not have a right to dump the latest Stargate episode on youtube, just because Syfy left a copy on your tape recorder or DVR.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
54. Re:bullcrap by lowrydr310 · 2010-09-23 02:12 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Let me tell you the story of my famous drill. When I was a teenager, my father and I were hiking in the woods and came across an old pile of garbage that someone had dumped. It looked like it had been sitting there for at least five years, and had obviously been through many seasons with plenty of rain and snow. We took it home with us and decided to clean it up. We disassembled it, gave it a brief cleaning, lubed it, and replaced the power cord because the existing cord was frayed and the insulation was dryrotted. We plugged it in and to our surprise it worked! It's from the early 50s, and is a perfect example of quality craftsmanship, when things were designed to last decades.
55. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:13 · Score: 0
  
  No, but your consent is not needed, so who the hell cares?
  If you disagree, please cite a court case or state/federal law to back up your claim.
56. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:13 · Score: 0
  
  I've spent hundreds on ThinkGeek merchandise and I'm forced to agree.
57. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:14 · Score: 1
  
  I wonder what your arteries look like after weeks of eating this Bacon Salt? Probably like the pipes in my kitchen (all clogged-up with just a narrow hole).
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
58. Re:bullcrap by saider · 2010-09-23 02:15 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  The problem with the Wal-Mart philosophy is that up-front cost becomes the only measure of "value". Things like longevity and quality are not considered.
  
  --
  
  Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
59. Re:bullcrap by kilfarsnar · 2010-09-23 02:15 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  People want cheap cheap cheap, so the design choices you mentioned were made to reach a price point.
  Indeed they do. I have had multi-millionaires rave to me about how cheap Wallmart is. I don't fully get it. I understand wanting to pay less for something. But at some point that low price comes at the cost of quality or features. That seems like a bad trade to me, but many people don't seem to consider it. Maybe they think that if their widget breaks, it's ok because it's cheap to replace. That still seems short-sighted to me.
  
  --
  "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
60. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:17 · Score: 0
  
  Basically an ISP must respond to a take-down notice,
  Absolutely not. There is no need to respond to a DMCA notice.
  But, if an ISP follows the terms of the DMCA to the letter, then the ISP is guaranteed zero liability.
  Of coursen there might have been zero liability anyway if the content wasn't infringing.
  Of course, many ISPs take the easy way...
61. Re:bullcrap by tomhudson · 2010-09-23 02:17 · Score: 1
  
  They needed it for another customer's car. And this way, you had to buy a new tire. See, they're working to stimulate the economy. It's only theft if you or I do it - not when Congress or WalMart do it.
62. Re:bullcrap by Runaway1956 · 2010-09-23 02:17 · Score: 1
  
  I see posts disagreeing with you - but my own company is a lot like you say. Without naming brands, we make stuff for a LOT of chainsaws. There were several brands between 40 and 20 years ago, that sold EXCELLENT saws - heavy duty machines that a man could work hard all day, every day, for weeks on end. Now, let's face it - those small two cycle engines took a beating, and if you ran a new saw for three months without a breakdown, you were doing quite well. But, you rebuilt the blasted thing, and it would go another three months. Today, there are only a FEW brands on the market - and they are really all the same damned saw. Stihl still makes an excellent machine, and Husqvarna's premium machines are just about as good as Stihl. I can't name another brand of professional quality saw. There may be one or two, but I've never heard of them, or used their machines. We make all the rest. Trash. Half of our machines are sold, KNOWING that few of them will last for 100 hours of hard use. They are toys, put on the market for suburban homeowners and the odd guy who feels the need to show how "macho" he is. In fact, a lot of them have silly names from television! Just stupid toys. Oh yeah - Husqvarna owns our company now, along with a good half dozen other brands. Although they still make a few top quality saws, they are happy as pigs in mud to market the trash. There's money in it, after all. Stupid consumers . . .
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
63. Re:bullcrap by bill_mcgonigle · 2010-09-23 02:18 · Score: 1
  
  The problem is getting it prosecuted and making the charges stick.
  Yeah. Prosecutors make their careers out of this kind of behavior, so good luck getting a wolf to turn on the pack. One could argue that the incentives are entirely in conflict with the ideals of Justice.
  In some States citizens may bring misdemeanor-level criminal charges.
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
64. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:20 · Score: 0
  
  When a new washer-dryer costs $3k-$6k, it works out much cheaper in lifetime costs.
  Get a well rated washer dryer on Black Friday - I got a nice front loader set (Samsung) for $1200 a couple of years ago, it's efficient & nice to use. (Admittedly the dryer isn't much more efficient than any other, but it does sense when the clothes are dry so it doesn't overheat them & waste extra energy.) Switching them out every year is too much of a pain.
  On the kitchen front, my 5 year old Bosch dishwasher is still going strong, I can see it lasting 15 years easy. But it was $800 rather than the $400 of others at Sears. You could feel the quality difference, though, and I figured that this is something I'll use every day for 10 years at least, so it's worth the extra. Haven't regretted it.
65. Re:bullcrap by drakaan · 2010-09-23 02:20 · Score: 1
  
  That's your experience. They stole a tire from me.
  Walmart did, or a rogue employee did? Seriously, what would the company want with your tire?
  Besides which, how does that change the fact that they tow cars and repair lawn appliances?
  
  --
  "Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
66. Re:bullcrap by bill_mcgonigle · 2010-09-23 02:20 · Score: 1
  
  I have learned to include "I think" or "in my opinion" on Slashdot, regardless of what the topic is.
  As my English professor would have said, "of course you do; of course it is."
  There's a point where you can paint a physics hypothesis or legal theory as fact when it's just conjecture, but if the subject is contextually open to interpretation, good debaters will understand this (there being no barrier to entry on Slashdot, of course).
  
  --
  My God, it's Full of Source!
  OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
67. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:21 · Score: 0
  
  You appear to be an idiot.
  I hope you get stuck in your WalMart world.
68. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:22 · Score: 0
  
  No, but your permission is not needed, so who the hell cares?
  If you disagree, please cite a court case or state/federal law to back up your claim.
69. Re:bullcrap by DrgnDancer · 2010-09-23 02:23 · Score: 1
  
  SciFy didn't knowingly and with full cognizance of the possible consequences deliberately put the episode on my DVR. There's a huge difference between passive content being recorded by a device which happens to be a receiver of that content, and me talking directly to your recording device.
  
  --
  I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
70. Re:bullcrap by erroneus · 2010-09-23 02:24 · Score: 1
  
  Even if that were the case, a DMCA takedown notice is not appropriate.
71. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:25 · Score: 0
  
  well, I've been advised by several electrician friends to look into installing a whole house surge protector. something like that should take care of your "electronics damaged by storms" problem.
72. Re:bullcrap by Runaway1956 · 2010-09-23 02:26 · Score: 1
  
  I do the same with cars. I refuse to drive a car worth several thousand dollars to the plant, only to have one of the macho morons flatten it with his Monster 4X4, or one of the illegal aliens do the same damage with his car. I buy old cars, ten to fifteen years old, for a thousand dollars or so - sometimes less. The LAST one I bought for 800 bucks lasted four years. The one I'm driving now cost me $500, and it's going on 5 months. If it burns up tomorrow, I've lost nothing really - and I can replace it in a few hours. Why waste money on shine, when parking at the plant guarantees that the shine will be gone in six months anyway? When I want to go someplace in comfort, I steal one of the cars sitting in the yard. Let the kids pay those big bucks for shiny - Dad will save his money for more important stuff!
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
73. Re:bullcrap by Sentrion · 2010-09-23 02:28 · Score: 1
  
  I have a milk shake mixer made out of steel and ceramic and an Osterizer blender made out of steel and glass. They both used to belong to my parents. They were purchased in the 1950's and 1960's. I still use both all the time and never yet needed service.
  When I have to buy plastic appliances they rarely last over 10 years. The cheapest appliances tend to crumble apart in 1-2 years.
74. Re:bullcrap by tomhudson · 2010-09-23 02:28 · Score: 1
  
  Or just move the files to Canada. No DMCA.
75. Re:bullcrap by Runaway1956 · 2010-09-23 02:29 · Score: 1
  
  Why export them? We can grind them up for dog food right here! There may be dogs starving in (fill in the blank with whichever country the charities are plugging today) but I'm all for looking after our own starving dogs first!
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
76. Re:bullcrap by whisper_jeff · 2010-09-23 02:30 · Score: 1
  
  If you own the copyright to material that someone else posts to the internet, the DMCA is _exactly_ appropriate.
  
  It's simple - they made a mistake - they included material that they did not own the copyright of nor have permission to publish in their video. Utilizing the DMCA is the correct course of action. Simple. Whether or not you like them or agree with them or anything like that is irrelevant - there was a copyright violation and the DMCA was used to correct it. Unless and until the DMCA is done away with or copyright laws are changed, that is the correct course of action for a coopyright holder who feels their content is being used without their permission.
77. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:30 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  That has to be the creepiest dream story I've ever heard / read.
78. Re:bullcrap by Jedi+Alec · 2010-09-23 02:30 · Score: 1
  
  Indeed, over here in Western Europe they tend to be roughly twice as expensive as the competition but they also typically outlast all the other offers by a factor of at least 2.
  Big initial investment but pays off over the years in simply knowing you have a quality piece of machinery. 1 downside though, their appliances tend to be bloody heavy so for someone that moves house a lot they may not be the best choice... *rubs back*
  
  --
  
  People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
79. Re:bullcrap by Runaway1956 · 2010-09-23 02:31 · Score: 1
  
  IE ROOLZ IN HELL!! Err, actually, maybe not. What is the official language in hell? Opera may well have an edge if the demons prefer cyrillic alphabet languages!
  
  --
  "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
80. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:33 · Score: 1
  
  >>>As my English professor would have said, "of course you do; of course it is."
  Naturally. I've had a lot of forum conversations over the years that look like this: "Buckyballs is abusing Zen Magnets and the DMCA process." - "You state that as fact, but it's not fact - it's just your opinion. Dumbass." - "No shit Sherlock. Of course it's my opinion; that's why it's under MY name. Way to state the obvious."
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
81. Re:bullcrap by Quiet_Desperation · 2010-09-23 02:33 · Score: 1
  
  Do you keep the door ajar after use? I've had a front loader for 5 years and no mold or mildew problems.
82. Re:bullcrap by zeroshade · 2010-09-23 02:34 · Score: 1
  
  If you call me and leave a voicemail, you have no legal standing to prevent me from playing that voicemail for whoever I wish. However, I have complete legal standing to prevent you from forcing me to play the voicemail. You're free to state what you said though. See, the recording becomes my property to do what I wish, as long as it was made legally (you knew you were being recorded.)
83. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:36 · Score: 1
  
  >>>They stole a tire from me.
  My local mechanic did the same thing - stole my spare donut tire. But of course that's hyperbole. He didn't actually "steal" the spare - he just forgot to put it in my trunk. i.e. An error.
  People are human. You're unwillingness to allow them to BE human, and sometime make errors, only makes you look like an asshole.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
84. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:40 · Score: 1
  
  That is true but for some things it doesn't matter.
  Who wants to still be using a VCR that's 20 years old? Who still uses computers that are 20 years old (i.e. 25 megahertz 386s or 68040s)??? Or an ancient CD player purchased in the late 80s, which is the size of a small TV? For some things price IS more important than longevity.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
85. Re:bullcrap by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 02:41 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  I buy Land's End Business Outfitters clothing. After 2 years i lost some socks to laundry room theft, so bought some new ones. The new socks are ... a shade whiter than the old ones. The 2 year old ones that I do still have are otherwise indistinguishable. They also cost $20 for 3 pair ($6.66/pair)
  I used to buy Wal-Mart clothing. Socks come $8 for 8 pair I think ($1/pair). The socks are not as nice to begin with. After about a month (maybe 4 washes), they have little lint balls hanging off and are flattened out like paper, and fraying. In less than a year they have holes. Realistically I could justify replacing them each month or at most 2 months, so maybe $8 x 6 = $48/year versus $40 for 6 pair that last me ... probably 3, 4 years? I haven't actually found out yet. And those expensive socks are a hell of a lot nicer. We're talking nicer things for $10-$15/year.
  It's the same with the shirts. I bought undershirts that are nice and fluffy... over two years ago, $20 for a 3 pack. They're good as new, but a little yellowed due to my horrible water (they're UNDER my shirt and feel nice), no fraying at all. I have shirts I bought 2 years ago from Land's End; one frayed around the edges, the other 5 are almost brand new. The pants... one has frayed because I kick my shoes off and catch the cuff under my sole; the others I haven't damaged and they need to be ironed. The shirts cost me $25 (wal-mart shirts are $15-$18) and pants cost me $30 (Wal-Mart pants cost me $18-$25, list price on Land's End pants is $40 but Sears has sales).
  The stuff I get from Wal-Mart lasts me about 2-3 months before showing holes, frayed/lost threads (bands around pants legs where thread has unraveled!), or complete loss of volume (socks, undershirts become paper-like). I pay 1.5 times as much and get something that lasts 2-3 years at least without fading or fraying, and it looks and feels better because it's dyed with better dyes and woven better (some of my cotton shirts have a smooth sheen and feel like silk!) and made of brushed Peruvian cotton. I'm sorry but yes, more expensive stuff just costs less; these people are indeed short-sighted morons.
  
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  Support my political activism on Patreon.
86. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:44 · Score: 0
  
  Exactly, " low-resolution and publicly available online" does NOT mean free to use for any purpose you like. it's still protected material no matter how low the resolution or how easily accessible it is.
87. Re:bullcrap by HungryHobo · 2010-09-23 02:44 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  That will last 20 years like they used to
  There's a selection bias here.
  There is cheap crap now which breaks right away.
  There has always been cheap crap that breaks right away.
  But you remember the lightbulb which lasted 10 years, not the other 20 that came with it and all burned out in the first few years.
  You remember the phone which lasted 10 years, not the one which you had to take back after a week with a flaky screen.
  People assume that they built things better in the old days because the items from that era have lasted so well.
  Ignoring that the items that didn't last aren't here to be evaluated.
  In 20 years there will still be people talking about the washing machine they bought back in 2010 which lasted 20 years and why can't they build like that nowdays.
  though I'll agree with you that whirlpool as a brand is terrible.
88. Re:bullcrap by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 02:45 · Score: 1
  
  Looking at toaster ovens, you can get an electric one with dials and springs and timers; or an electric one with digital buttons and displays. I never understood why you'd want digital displays and buttons on anything; my toaster oven doesn't need a clock. Who cooks in an appliance that has a clock?
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
89. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:46 · Score: 1
  
  Congrats you just made a sale. Do you work on commission? ;-)
  One thing this printer lacks is a scanner, which my current printer has, so maybe I'll just bookmark it for future reference. You're right though that laser toner is MUCH cheaper than inkjet toner. 100-200 pages per cartridge is ridiculous. My laser printer gives me ~5000 per cartridge.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
90. Re:bullcrap by angshuman · 2010-09-23 02:46 · Score: 1
  
  Look closely at the wording that you just quoted.
  
  I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
  IANAL, but AFAIK the penalty of perjury is only applicable to a counter-claim. It is sufficient for the original infringement claim to be in "good faith" (I'm mincing words, but that's the general idea). The law was deliberately designed to allow content-providers to merrily walk about throwing takedown notices without any accountability while the requiring the alleged infringer to be very careful before filing a counter claim.
91. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:49 · Score: 0
  
  Please site a court case dealing specifically with voicemail to back up your claim, because stating that voicemails are copyright by the person who left them sounds like a load of crap to me.
92. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:49 · Score: 0
  
  Why should I have to hire an attorney, pay court costs, and take time out of my life just to defend myself from an unsubstantiated allegation? This is a gross perversion of any principle of justice I can think of. I just hope I get to see some of the people responsible hang in my lifetime.
93. Re:bullcrap by operagost · 2010-09-23 02:53 · Score: 1
  
  It's non-trivial to change out a dishwasher.
  
  I'll say. It took a recip saw to remove mine because the installer saw fit to screw the legs to the floor (a properly installed dishwasher shouldn't move; the counter screws should be enough to hold it in place) before installing the countertops. They were rusted away, besides being in an almost inaccessible location.
  
  --
  
  Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
94. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:55 · Score: 1
  
  >>>SciFy didn't knowingly and with full cognizance
  Of course they did. SyFy and all other TV channels are fully aware that most of their programming is DVR'd. It's why they asked Nielsen Ratings to start tracking DVR views in addition to live views. So hen they stream Stargate across the cable, they know it's being taped. BUT that doesn't mean they grant permission to post the recording on youtube. It's still copyrighted.
  Likewise neither do I give permission for you to copy my message from your answering tape recorder to youtube. It's copyrighted by default. In addition there are numerous privacy protection laws that forbid such public disclosure of phone calls.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
95. Re:bullcrap by m.ducharme · 2010-09-23 02:55 · Score: 1
  
  Copyright in both photos and private messages remains with the creator by default, so there is a basis for a claim.
  Photos, yes, but note that copyright in photos is held by the photographer, not the subject of the photo. Probably not a relevant distinction here. But copyright in sent messages? Hmmm, as far as I know, there's no such thing, at least in my jurisdiction. "Say it with dinner, say it with flowers, but never, never say it in a letter." There's a reason for that, the reason being that the recipient can publish your messages with impunity, and you have no recourse. (again, this is likely not true in every jurisdiction)
  
  --
  Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
96. Re:bullcrap by dcavanaugh · 2010-09-23 02:56 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  We have few options to buy long-lasting products because nobody wants to pay a premium for higher quality. There is a good reason for this. Factory production is a process that can be automated from end to end with most of the labor coming from low-cost offshore workers.
  Repair is a different matter. It takes more labor to fix an appliance than it does to make one. The repair tech has a higher skill level than most of the factory workers, and this labor cannot be sent offshore. The cost of parts is much higher as well. Somebody has to operate a warehouse full of replacement parts for machines made over many years. Some of those parts will sit on the shelf for years, some will never be sold. Therefore, the markup on parts has to subsidize the slow-selling and non-selling parts.
  If someone could make a durable appliance that NEVER had to be fixed, it would be worth the premium. But as soon as service is required, we all know that a service call is dangerously close to the cost of a cheapie replacement appliance. Consumers generally demand features (like computerized controls) that increase the chance of failure at some point -- regardless of how well-made the rest of the machine is.
  Kirby vacuum cleaners are awesome machines. But if you buy a plastic Hoover every 3 years, it will probably cost less (even if you buy 7 of them over 21 years). Your carpet will still be clean, and your risk at any given point is limited to the cost of a Walmart plastic vacuum cleaner. The Kirby will cost more to fix than the Hoover will cost to buy.
  Some people buy exotic cars with the full understanding that the annual cost of repairs will be dangerously close to the payments on a brand new Toyota. But if you love the car, you accept the tradeoff. This happens far less often with appliances because it's hard to love a refrigerator all that much.
97. Re:bullcrap by raymansean · 2010-09-23 02:56 · Score: 1
  
  Miele, but don't complain about the price.
  
  --
  insert inflammatory comment here!
98. Re:bullcrap by espiesp · 2010-09-23 02:57 · Score: 1
  
  Umm.
  When they say "They don't make them like they used to", they mean the old ones were still good. So your anecdotal evidence only further supports it.
  If your mother thinks she's going to get another 15-20 reliable years out of her new appliance she's probably going to be disappointed. That's what everybody is getting at.
99. Re:bullcrap by mea37 · 2010-09-23 03:00 · Score: 1
  
  "There's a huge difference between passive content being recorded by a device which happens to be a receiver of that content, and me talking directly to your recording device."
  There's probably not as far as copyright is concerned. You would be right if we were talking about wiretap laws - you can't leave a message on my machine and then claim I illegally intercepted the communication illegally even in an all-party consent state. But this isn't about consent to make the recording; it's about who has the copyright on the resulting recording.
  The iTunes music store, with the copyright holder's knowledge and consent, knowingly presents data to your recording device (hard drive and/or iPod). Does that give you the right to use that content in a video promoting your business? Does it transfer any copyright to you at all? No.
  Now, I do agree that a properly defined copyright law should not generally protect phone messages. A phone message is not the type of information copyright is intended to protect. However, the law doesn't make a very robust effort to define the boundary, because it is a very difficult thing to get right. AFAIK the courts may well hold that the message is a sound recording afforded copyright protection.
  Assuming the message is considered copyrightable, then the author is presumed to own the copyright. The person leaving the message would likely be regarded as the author. That he consented to make the recording on your equipment and leave you with a copy of it does not transfer copyright, just as you don't acquire copyright in a song you download with iTunes.
  I suppose you could have your answering machine message state that the caller, by leaving a messages, transfers copyright in that message to you. I don't know if it would hold up, but at least it should make an interesting case. Without such a notice, though, you can't claim an implicit transfer of copyright.
  Maybe copyright could/should have boundaries relating to the intent behind the creation of the content, or the expressive value of the content, or the intent of enforcement, or any number of things; but as it stands today, the copyright assertion is probably "valid enough" that you can't call it abusive in any legally meaningful way.
100. Re:bullcrap by omnichad · 2010-09-23 03:00 · Score: 1
  
  I love the dial on my toaster oven, but hated when my microwave had one. Yes, the microwave has a clock, but I never set it. It's just that I need a little more precision in setting the timer because it cooks so fast and a keypad really helps with that.
101. Re:bullcrap by Bill_the_Engineer · 2010-09-23 03:00 · Score: 1
  
  LOL! Problems being that dogs won't eat them, and it may make them sick.
  
  --
  These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
102. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:01 · Score: 0
  
  The worst problem is in areas like Appliances where the company making cheap crap ("Whirlxxxx") buys out their higher quality competition ("Mayxxx"), and then starts producing cheap crap under the "Mayxxx" name.
  It has reached a point where it is impossible (as far as I can tell) to buy
  a dishwasher
  a hot water heater
  a washing machine
  That will last 20 years like they used to. The current dishwashers have electronics that are damaged by storms every 2-3 years. Some of the "money" parts are hard plastic so they wear out well before 10 years.
  It's better in some cases to buy used and spend big bucks getting the item repaired. Then at least you have a solid appliance.
  Please feel free to post if you've found a source for reliable (as in 20 year life span) major appliances.
  What about the law? A company can't possibly be allowed to deliver a faulty product. The normal life expectancy of a dishwasher is much longer than 2-3 years. Thus, unless they have proof you broke it, they have to fix it for you free of charge or give you a new one.
103. Re:bullcrap by mea37 · 2010-09-23 03:09 · Score: 1
  
  What privacy laws would those be? I'm generally not compelled to protect your privacy in information you provide me unless I'm your doctor, your lawyer, your spiritual advisor, etc. (and then only if I'm operating in that capacity).
  A few states' wiretap laws might require your permission to disclose the recording; OTOH most states don't even require your permission or knowledge for me to make a recording (in which case I can do as I wish with it).
  That's another area where the copyright angle gets murky. Just because it's your voice on the tape, doesn't necessarily make you the author. If anyone owns the copyright to a recording I secretly make, it would be me. As I've said elsewhere I suspect the caller would be treated as the author in the case of n answering machine, but really that's a pretty inconsistent interpretation of the law.
  The fact that every aspect of this is so debatable only strengthens my belief that copyright law, to the extent it attempts to cover something like a phone message, is incorrect.
104. Re:bullcrap by rilles · 2010-09-23 03:10 · Score: 1
  
  ditto. seems to be a plaque of people not allowing the front loader to air out, and not keeping the seals cleaned. top loader may just be best for them.
105. Re:bullcrap by blueup · 2010-09-23 03:12 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, I just stuck it in my .sig.
  with room for future changes, even.
  
  --
  -- The above may have once been believed by me, but any truth or application you find is your own problem.
106. Re:bullcrap by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 03:12 · Score: 1
  
  There was probably a lengthy contract which you probably did not read which probably went through all that in probably very painful detail when you signed up for the cable connection / DVR box.
  What I mean is... Probably, though, you can’t do that because they told you that you couldn’t. I.e. they asserted that right. No similar implicit agreement exists when you leave a message on my voicemail.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
107. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:12 · Score: 0
  
  That's the beauty of the American system. Republicans started figuring this out in the 1980's. They used to take bold, unpopular stands like repealing the Endangered Species Act and the Clean Water Act. They soon discovered this was political suicide and set out to regroup. What they discovered is that you don't have to repeal the laws, you just make enforcement so lax that they are repealed for all practical purposes. The public's attention span is too short to listen to an explanation of how something can be against the law but nobody's getting in trouble for breaking it.
  I think we might be able to clear this up by making it a crime with a mandatory prison sentence for an agent of law enforcement (including prosecutors) to have knowledge that a crime was committed and fail to discharge their duties in connection thereto.
108. Re:bullcrap by dyingtolive · 2010-09-23 03:13 · Score: 1
  
  That's not due to genuine misinterpretation of the statement however, or the genuine belief that anyone else could misconstrue what you're saying as fact. It's mostly just a person being an deliberately obtuse asshat because he or she has no retort beyond "nuh-uh!".
  
  --
  Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
109. Re:bullcrap by blackraven14250 · 2010-09-23 03:14 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  "The vice president's office was furnished with a folding lawn chair and a chaise lounge." i.e. Cutting costs. Saving money.
  Yet the owners with the highest number of shares, the Waltons (all 4 of them), each walk away with billions per year, while the people working there live just below the poverty line.
110. Re:bullcrap by wilderg · 2010-09-23 03:15 · Score: 0
  
  I can see where it would be impossible to buy a hot water heater. They don't make them. If the water is already hot, then it doesn't need to be heated. It's just a water heater, often with a hot water tank.
111. Re:bullcrap by Pojut · 2010-09-23 03:16 · Score: 1
  
  If the only thing you print is mapquest directions and documents, you really don't have to look any further than this guy (aside from your scanner needs, of course.) It's not only the best "document" printer I've owned, but the best one I've used.
  Keep in mind I work in a call center...and that opinion still holds true.
  
  --
  Living With a Nerd
112. Re:bullcrap by T+Murphy · 2010-09-23 03:18 · Score: 1
  
  Obviously some people don't think this is abuse- said people being the congressmen who signed the DMCA into law and the lobbyists who wrote it.
  
  --
  My webcomic
113. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:21 · Score: 0
  
  Without a court order essentially certifying that the material is infringing you are making an allegation not stating a legal fact. This is why 'allegedly' is in that statement.
114. Re:bullcrap by saider · 2010-09-23 03:23 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I have a VCR that still works (it was bought in 1993 when I was in college). I also still have my original Sony CD player bought in 1988 (not the size of a small TV) and it is still plays CDs from time to time. My Panasonic receiver and amp I bought in 1995 are still driving my 30 year old speakers. My appliances (washer, dryer, fridge, dishwasher) are all older than my 10 year old son, with only minor repairs here and there.
  Granted, I don't use the CD player much because I have my computer hooked up to the stereo now. But why should I have to repurchase something just because some marketing droid figured that everyone will want to toss ProductX in 3 years. Most components of playing music (amp, speakers, etc) haven't changed much. Mowing the lawn and doing laundry have not changed much in 30+ years. Why should I buy a cheap machine, when I can pay twice as much and get a machine that lasts much, much longer? Appliances never break on Saturday morning right before you were heading off to Home Depot. They go out on Sunday night on the week that you need to work overtime in order to get the Super-Important project done on time.
  I vote with my wallet for quality all the time. That is why I do not shop at Wal-mart. I have found that even the quality brands will have cheap-ass Walmart-only models that are far inferior to the other models that they sell. The problem is that people do not do their research and buy these inferior models and send the message to the retailers that "I like crap". This causes other retailers to do the same in order to compete. This makes the quality models much harder to find, and more importantly, the retailers never get the message because they are plenty busy selling crap to people who don't care.
  
  --
  
  Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
115. Re:bullcrap by Pojut · 2010-09-23 03:26 · Score: 1
  
  Considering we rarely use it, (and generally maintain a decent diet), they probably look pretty good.
  last time I had a physical (5 months ago), my overall Cholesterol was at 160.
  
  --
  Living With a Nerd
116. Re:bullcrap by dshadowwolf · 2010-09-23 03:28 · Score: 1
  
  Nice qualification, there, but... There is no question that this is an abuse. The images that BuckyBalls could have any claim to are publicly available anyway and the usage of the name is in reference to the product. So... There is no way that the company could have filed a takedown notice without perjuring themselves. And yes, it is perjury - a DMCA takedown notice is also a sworn affidavit that you have the legal right to actually file the notice. (ie: the video or music in question violates a copyright you hold or that you have been hired to enforce the copyright holders interests)
  Further, the DMCA contains some strict prohibitions against mis-use and some nasty punishments in any case where it is mis-used. Since the people at Zen Magnets hold the copyright to the video, BuckyBalls (or their parent company) have no copyrights that are being infringed and hence have no legal standing to file a DMCA takedown notice on the video. QED: If the people at Zen Magnets handle this correctly, the "Goliath" of the "magnetic sphere" industry will feel the pain of having an idiot for a CEO.
117. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:31 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Yes, and their lawyers have a private jet to go union busting. There's BS for you. If the US citizens and congress all shopped at WalMart you'd be dead within 5 years. They're scum. They treat their employees like slaves, use bully marketing to put local businesses out, and abuse their position to enforce their "morality" on others (no birth control in WalMart, and we put the other pharmacies out of business, so guess what little girl... you'll do it our way).
  The sooner you wake up to your rape by these thugs, the better.
118. Re:bullcrap by Teancum · 2010-09-23 03:31 · Score: 1
  
  I think the energy savings is debatable if you have to expend a whole bunch of energy to build a new machine and transport it together with all of the supplies to and from the various suppliers and manufacturers along the supply chain.
  What annoys me is that these machines are purposely being designed so they can't be repaired. Engineers for consumer appliances would spend design effort to come up with ways that products could be taken apart and put back together again... perhaps even to make changes simply to make it easier to repair the devices. That is no longer the case for most consumer products.
  While I will agree that many of the older appliances were wasteful of energy and had a greater "environmental impact" in terms of their day to day usage, they were designed to last for years and could be repaired with only a modest effort with just a couple of minor parts. I don't understand why at least somebody doesn't get involved with making more equipment like this, even if it cost a little bit more.
119. Re:bullcrap by SirMasterboy · 2010-09-23 03:32 · Score: 1
  
  What about industrial-grade appliances?
  
  For example, the washer and dryer in my apartment complex are industrial-grade and they seem to be built exceptionally well and hold up under constant use for years.
120. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:32 · Score: 0
  
  Let's see how long it takes for my comment to be removed.
  Ah, you must be new here! We don't remove comments like those. We just beat on them repeatedly for days and days on end! They make such a delightfully funny screaming noise with every blow!
121. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:35 · Score: 0
  
  The photo's maybe.
  The plural of "photo" is "photos".
122. Re:bullcrap by SpeZek · 2010-09-23 03:38 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  their appliances tend to be bloody heavy
  I've found that judging a lot of different things by weight gives you a good indication of the quality of that product.
  Heavier furniture? They didn't use cheap wood. Heavy fridge? It's metal, not plastic. Heavy powersupply? It has quality caps and sinks. Heavy metal...
123. Re:bullcrap by larry+bagina · 2010-09-23 03:39 · Score: 1
  
  Let me mention speedqueen. They're usually associated with laundromats (consider the abuse those machines get!) but they make washers and dryers for the home market as well. I bought a set last year (I was expecting them to be a lot more expensive than they were) and expect them to last. Oh, and they're made in the US - Wisconsin to be exact. Maybe that's why they're not cheap shit.
  
  --
  Do you even lift?
  These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
124. Re:bullcrap by Teancum · 2010-09-23 03:44 · Score: 1
  
  There is a lag effect between when a brand is known for quality and how long it takes consumers to wise up that it is a bunch of garbage. My mother and my wife's aunts all swear by Kenmore appliances, as they were of fairly decent quality in the 1960's and 1970's. By about the mid 1980's Sears really trashed the quality.... do doubt giving some senior executive a major bonus while the profits were high and the costs were low.
  There has been a minor attempt to restore the cred on that brand, but for me it is too little and too late. I have a Kenmore refrigerator right now that is I suppose OK, but the customer service I get from Sears is disgusting and I will never go shopping there again for as long as I live. I regret making the purchase there and found a fridge made by the same manufacturer (under a different label) sold at Lowe's for a couple hundred dollars less. I don't mind paying the extra money, but the manager at the Sears store was such a jerk to me that I should have simply returned the fridge the day after it was delivered.
125. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:53 · Score: 0
  
  I know some rich people that will consider it a good day if they do not have to put 25 cents in a parking meter.
126. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:58 · Score: 0
  
  I think your full of crap. Please cite the laws/statutes that make disclosing a voicemail message illegal.
127. Re:bullcrap by Antisyzygy · 2010-09-23 03:59 · Score: 1
  
  Good god.
  
  --
  That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
128. Re:bullcrap by noidentity · 2010-09-23 04:03 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  It has reached a point where it is impossible (as far as I can tell) to buy
  [...]
  a hot water heater
  
  I just now found a very cheap device which accepts raw hot water and produces heated hot water.
129. Re:bullcrap by Quirkz · 2010-09-23 04:04 · Score: 1
  
  That's all well and good for English classes, where almost everything everyone says is going to be opinion when you're analyzing literature. However, in a lot of other arenas, including just about any online discussion, I'd argue that there are far more problems with people expressing opinion as fact than for people unnecessarily labeling their opinions as opinion. I'd rather see people clarify unnecessarily than fail to clarify enough.
  
  --
  The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
130. Re:bullcrap by mcgrew · 2010-09-23 04:08 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Often you're not paying for anything but a name; I could have spent $150 on a pair of Nike shoes, but I bought a pair at WalMart for $5 several years ago; they're only now to the point of needing replacement. I'd be willing to bet that if I'd bought Nike they'd be shot, too.
  I pick up Nike tshirts at garage sales for seventy five cents. It's stupid to pay extra for "quality" in an item you don't plan on keeping long, and IMO it's doubly stupid to pay extra for a name.
  Aleive costs three times what the same strength generic naproxin sodium costs, but the product is identical. The extra cost buys you nothing.
  
  --
  Free Martian Whores!
131. Re:bullcrap by alexo · 2010-09-23 04:24 · Score: 1
  
  Or just move the files to Canada. No DMCA.
  Yet.
132. Re:bullcrap by ultranova · 2010-09-23 04:34 · Score: 1
  
  I think this is an abuse of the DMCA (some would argue that any use of it is abuse, but that's a different topic.)
  
  No, that's not a different topic. The purpose of DMCA is to make it convenient for corporations to censor any and all information that they find inconvenient. There's no imaginable use of the DMCA that isn't abuse; that means that the law is bad and the people who passed it are corrupt.
  In other words, this isn't abuse of the DMCA, this is using it exactly as intended.
  
  --
  Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
133. Re:bullcrap by interkin3tic · 2010-09-23 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  It has reached a point where it is impossible (as far as I can tell) to buy
  a dishwasher
  a hot water heater
  a washing machine
  That will last 20 years like they used to
  You'd prefer an OBSOLETE washing machine!?! What kind of nerd are you, not buying new hardware every 3 years?
  Kidding. I do hope that all three will get more energy efficient in the next 20 years, but that should be the incentive to get a new appliance, not "The old one broke after 5 years because it was designed to."
134. Re:bullcrap by ultranova · 2010-09-23 04:43 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Yet the owners with the highest number of shares, the Waltons (all 4 of them), each walk away with billions per year, while the people working there live just below the poverty line.
  
  Well, that is the whole point of Capitalism: it's Feudalism 2.0, with some of the dogma changed to a new wording - for example, rather than talking about the Divine Right of Kings, they talk about Property Rights, and rather than talking about God, they talk about the Invisible Hand of the Market. But it all works out to the same: the nobility benefits at the expense of everyone else.
  
  --
  Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
135. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 04:43 · Score: 0
  
  Thirded. Miele's expensive, but in the long run, their stuff pays for itself.
136. Re:bullcrap by tomhudson · 2010-09-23 04:46 · Score: 1
  
  I've had idiots threaten me with bogus DMCA requests 3 times in the last couple of years when I wrote exposes about them - nothing ever came of them (and one idiot sent the notice to an American ISP).
  But your point is right - "not yet". Hopefully it will stay that way, because illegitimate requests are such a hassle.
137. Re:bullcrap by DinDaddy · 2010-09-23 04:53 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Sears' appliances have always been rebranded units from the major mfrs, i.e. whirlpool, GE, etc., so their quality decline is due to the other brands.
  Their customer service went into a severe nosedive about 2-3 years ago. We had bought ~$10K in appliances from them during 1995-2005, and they always bent over backwards to give us good servic up until then.
  Then one day, after the third repeat of an issue with a Kenmore rebranded whirlpool high end washer, they stopped being helpful and actually became obstructive to getting it serviced. My wife pressed the agent on the phone, who finally admitted the company had reprioritized their whole service department to reduce costs and they were instructed to literally make it as diificult as possible to get warranty service. My wife asked if it mattered that we would now take our obviously lucrative (to them) appliance business somewhere else, and was told yes, it was short sighted, but couldn't be helped.
  Gotta please the shareholders.
138. Re:bullcrap by alexo · 2010-09-23 05:03 · Score: 1
  
  But your point is right - "not yet". Hopefully it will stay that way
  Until we get ACTA or an equivalent thereof, which seems to be Harper's wet dream. Not that the Liberals are better - after spending my time crafting a letter that explains exactly what is wrong with the ACTA approach, my "elected representative" send me a canned "answer" in which he "reaffirms his support for intellectual property protections".
  Which just served to reaffirm my support of any candidate not affiliated with either of these two parties (since we don't have independents in our riding, that means either the Greens or the NDP).
139. Re:bullcrap by Anomalyst · 2010-09-23 05:05 · Score: 1
  
  my overall Cholesterol was at 160
  I am pretty sure my overalls have far less Cholesterol, must be the natural cotton fibers.
  
  --
  There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
140. Re:bullcrap by alexo · 2010-09-23 05:05 · Score: 1
  
  The penalty is right in the notice. All proper DCMA take down request require this:
  
  I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.
  A false or abusive notice can land the petitioner on the hook for perjury. The problem is getting it prosecuted and making the charges stick.
  You misunderstand the statement.
  If I claim that post #33674456 by RattFink infringes on my post #33676750, the only part "under penalty of perjury" is the fact that I am the rights holder of post #33676750 (or authorized to act on their behalf) and that my name and address are correct.
141. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 05:12 · Score: 0
  
  You see under DMCA law, youtube has no choice. If they receive a request they MUST take down the material.
  Absolutely not. Youtube (or anyone else) doesn't have to do anything when a DMCA complaint arrives.
  Having received a takedown notice, AND if youtube does nothing AND if the notice is valid, AND if the content is infringing copyright, then youtube might have some liability as decided by a court of law for copyright infringement. Depending on the value of the content and other factors, the damages might be very small or very large.
  On the other hand, if youtube follows the terms of the DMCA to the letter, then youtube is guaranteed zero liability from all parties.
142. Re:bullcrap by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 05:17 · Score: 1
  
  I've never owned a microwave.
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
143. Re:bullcrap by aztracker1 · 2010-09-23 05:18 · Score: 1
  
  For that matter, I can usually find used laser printers with enough toner in them to last longer than a black ink cartridge alone, for near the same price... my current printer HP 4000N was $20 at an auction about a year and a half ago, and still running on the toner that was in it when I got the thing. If/when I *need* color, I go to Kinkos and pay a bit more per sheet, but it more than evens out in my favor... I very rarely need color... actually, I don't need to print often at all.
  
  --
  Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
144. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 05:27 · Score: 0
  
  Often, very true. You are spot on.
  There are companies though that put out quality stuff. For shoes, there's a brand in Japan called Visvim which I'm told makes good, quality stuff. Rather expensive.
  The problem is, and something Walmart solves, is how to locate the good stuff. Visvim is hard to find in the US, and hard to find decent US shoe sizes. I can't afford a car over $15k, but I can find a Ferrari dealership easier than I can find Hockney's in a size 12.
  I'll look into Miele. My parents last washer/dryer lasted 10 years. It was a Whirlpool. Got 4-5 washings and dryer runs everyday. Maybe they got lucky. Then again, they bought a Cadillac Seville, which were supposed to be lemons, and theirs lasted over 20 years.
145. Re:bullcrap by demonbug · 2010-09-23 05:31 · Score: 1
  
  Took a look, and they look nice - except that they don't appear to make anything that would be a slide-in replacement for my cheapo (quality-wise, not necessarily price-wise; came with the house), dying whirl****-ish stove. I'm happy to pay more for quality, but I'd prefer not to have to re-do my whole kitchen just to replace my stove...
  So, any suggestions for quality products from a manufacturer that actually takes the US market into account (I realize that is asking a lot, as we generally go for the cheapest thing that has all the right shinies)?
146. Re:bullcrap by omnichad · 2010-09-23 05:34 · Score: 1
  
  congratulations.
147. Re:bullcrap by MBCook · 2010-09-23 05:36 · Score: 1
  
  I always heard they did that not to cut costs, but to put the sales people who came in off their game, to make them uncomfortable and break their confidence, so Walmart could negotiate a better deal easily.
  
  --
  Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
148. Re:bullcrap by SydShamino · 2010-09-23 05:38 · Score: 1
  
  There's a reason my home laser printer is from 1990.
  
  --
  It doesn't hurt to be nice.
149. Re:bullcrap by DinDaddy · 2010-09-23 05:42 · Score: 1
  
  I don't fully disagree with you, there was cheap crap 40 years ago as well. But every decent quality item I bought prior to 1980 has lasted decades. This is less true of the higher quality items I have bought since then. It's more a 50/50 proposition now.
150. Re:bullcrap by DinDaddy · 2010-09-23 05:48 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks for the tip. My wife has been pissed about our "top of the line" Kenmore (nee Whirlpool) for years, and when it next fails, wants to replace it with something actually made well.
151. Re:bullcrap by DinDaddy · 2010-09-23 05:49 · Score: 1
  
  Oddly, these are the same dogs who cheerfully eat crap out of a catbox with no ill effects.
152. Re:bullcrap by DinDaddy · 2010-09-23 05:51 · Score: 1
  
  What is the official language in hell?
  
  FORTRAN
153. Re:bullcrap by snerdy · 2010-09-23 05:56 · Score: 1
  
  There's no reason a good quality stove shouldn't last you 50 years or more.
  My parents happen to be stove enthusiasts (yes, I know that's pretty weird) and I helped them pull some clandestine intra-family action in order to secure my great-great-grandmother's stove. I have to admit that it's quite a prize, this is a machine that worked through the American Civil War. It currently bides its time until it heats a home again ...and, I suppose, cooks food -- it's just way over powered for such a simple task.
  A stove that lasts 50 years? Get off my great-great-grandmother's lawn!
  P.S. I love the subject line for this thread.
154. Re:bullcrap by raynet · 2010-09-23 05:57 · Score: 1
  
  What if I read my poem to your voicemail? Would you suddenly have rights to distribute it without my permission. You could most likely playback the voicemail tape, but you making a copy to another medium might not be legal, posting it to Youtube would be clear case of distributing my copyrighted work by you without permission. And what if instead of a poem, I playback a Commodore 64 tape recording of a software I've written.
  
  --
  - Raynet --> .
155. Re:bullcrap by raynet · 2010-09-23 05:59 · Score: 1
  
  True, but using those kinds of photos might help with ones fair-use defense.
  
  --
  - Raynet --> .
156. Re:bullcrap by The+Grim+Reefer2 · 2010-09-23 06:00 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Sears' appliances have always been rebranded units from the major mfrs, i.e. whirlpool, GE, etc., so their quality decline is due to the other brands.
  Their customer service went into a severe nosedive about 2-3 years ago.
  That's about the time K-Mart bought them.
157. Re:bullcrap by Teancum · 2010-09-23 06:02 · Score: 1
  
  OK, if the ISP wants to retain their neutrality and not get dragged into a copyright dispute as a co-defendant in a copyright lawsuit, they have to respond. Yes, they can do nothing and ignore all DMCA complaints, but then again they'll also have to be hiring a huge team of lawyers that does nothing but run around dealing with frivolous lawsuits. It is much easier to simply comply and take the content away. Not just easier but incredibly easier and much less costly.
  If somebody sues the ISP (or in this case YouTube) for copyright violation after they've responded to the DMCA complaint by removing the content, YouTube ends up owning the plaintiff and can offer up a charge of barratry to even put the opposing counsel into jail. That sounds like an awful nice stick to give up merely by being lazy.
  If you are deliberately ignoring a complaint and want to defend the copyright in a certain situation, that is another story altogether. Instead, post the DMCA and stick it to the man.
158. Re:bullcrap by SharpFang · 2010-09-23 06:04 · Score: 1
  
  Still depends on price-quality ratio.
  I've given up on buying better keyboards, as one that costs 10x the price of the cheapest one will survive maybe 3x the time if I'm lucky. Expensive shoes last 3-5 seasons, shoes for 5% the price last a season or two.
  It is really sometimes cheaper to buy cheap and replace often.
  
  --
  45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
159. Re:bullcrap by Bill_the_Engineer · 2010-09-23 06:13 · Score: 1
  
  Yet they don't like pickles...
  
  --
  These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
160. Re:bullcrap by Hatta · 2010-09-23 06:19 · Score: 1
  
  That still seems short-sighted to me.
  It is. People are short sighted. Don't spend too much time trying to "fully get it". This is all there is to get.
  
  --
  Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
161. Re:bullcrap by Kagetsuki · 2010-09-23 06:21 · Score: 1
  
  Sony and Panasonic are Japanese brands and I don't think either actively develops products just to be cheap. I often pick Panasonic specifically for reliability (my cell phone is a 930P for example) and I can't recall a single Panasonic product failing on me... but then again I have quite a few things I just don't use anymore as there are newer better versions I own. Built to last or not the reality is when newer better things come out and I have cash to burn these non-broken things end up in a closet.
162. Re:bullcrap by Hatta · 2010-09-23 06:22 · Score: 1
  
  High quality keyboards and shoes are worth the investment because they're much nicer to use. If I'm on my feet 8 hours a day, and behind a keyboard another 8 hours, I damn well better be using good equipment. Shitty keyboards and shoes are a rip-off even if they're free.
  
  --
  Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
163. Re:bullcrap by mcgrew · 2010-09-23 06:26 · Score: 1
  
  I have a vaccuum cleaner from that era that my dad bought when I was two (I'm 58 now) and it still works, and has never had service. I have a baking mixer about the same age; it works, but only because I replaced the worn out bushing with a spring from a ballpoint pen (antique appliance hardware hacking). One other appliance I have that's that old is a wondow fan that doesn't work; it has a huge capacitor that's burned out.
  I have a drill my dad gave me that still works like a champ that he probably bought when I was eight or ten.
  They don't make 'em like they use to. My cell phone's only a year old and it's on its last legs, but I have a forty year old landline phone that works perfectly (or would if I ad a landline).
  
  --
  Free Martian Whores!
164. Re:bullcrap by guruevi · 2010-09-23 06:31 · Score: 1
  
  One of the problems is of course that if a company designs a very well constructed piece of equipment, it's going to be either prohibitively more expensive (compare pricing between Volkswagen/Audi/Mercedes and Chevy/GMC/Buick) or the product will outlive the company as the market gets saturated. I have a compass that was purchased when my mother was in school, when I went to school for architecture I was looking through art shops to get the same brand but an old shopkeeper told me that they went out of business a couple of years ago because nobody bought them anymore. He still had some in the back for $50-75 compared to the $15 plastic ones.
  
  --
  Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
165. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 06:33 · Score: 0
  
  I take it you don't fancy property rights?
166. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 06:37 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  Well, the question becomes "how much is that quality or feature worth to you".
  Here's an example. I recently bought a pair of wireless headphones w/ mic for $60. They have universally poor reviews with every reviewer pointing out that the left side speaker tends to go out within about half a year. I knew this when I bought them, but I got them anyway. Why? 2 reasons.
  1. I got these headphones because the way my apartment is set up, I have my tv connected to my computer and I wanted to be able to watch tv (over the internet) without being tethered to the computer. Once I move out in about a year, I have no idea what the landscape of my next apartment will look like, and I highly doubt my tv will be in the bedroom or connected to the PC.
  2. I had a very tight budget and going too far over would have meant not eating for a couple of weeks. When the choice is between "substandard product now" or "no product at all" i'd rather get substandard and deal with the issues that come up. All other alternatives either had the same problems or cost twice as much.
  3. I tend to be hard on my headphones. I've broken great pairs of $40 wired headphones by tripping on them or sitting on them. I'd rather throw out a cheap pair of $10 headphones after a year than throw out a great but broken pair of $40 headphones.
  So yeah, in half a year I'll probably chuck the cheap crap away. That's better not having them at all or chucking out a set of $200 ones.
167. Re:bullcrap by geminidomino · 2010-09-23 06:40 · Score: 1
  
  Not just appliances. That situation sounds awful familiar if you replace the brands with "Cixxx" and "Linkxxx"...
168. Re:bullcrap by poity · 2010-09-23 06:42 · Score: 1
  
  You learned that only because people are overly sensitive with regard to their own opinions and take offense when others don't couch their every word in phrases that project uncertainty.
  I used to play this game like you, but it's a depressing and tiresome one.
  Fuck them if they can't take some confidence.
  It's the internet, knowing to take all printed word with a grain of salt is a fundamental requirement.
  I don't need to put IMO in front of everything I say. You should know it's IMO by the very fact that I'm saying it.
  
  --
  your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
169. Re:bullcrap by Jeremy+Erwin · 2010-09-23 06:43 · Score: 1
  
  You cook in a toaster oven, I cook in a real oven. And yes, it has a clock, and timers. I like to have my curry and my rice simultaneously.
  If you open an oven repeatedly, it loses heat. A clock is a convenient way of estimating how done a dish is likely to be, without checking compulsively.
170. Re:bullcrap by ftobin · 2010-09-23 06:44 · Score: 1
  
  I find it interesting that people are dismissing Whirlpool, while Consumer Reports has consistently reported it as being a manufacturer requiring fewer repairs than other brands.
171. Re:bullcrap by Coren22 · 2010-09-23 06:46 · Score: 1
  
  I have the color version of that printer, picked it up for $220 during the holiday season when everything goes on sale. I simply love it. The fact that toner never dries out works really well for me as I rarely print anything, but when I print something, I want it to look nice. For C64, what I did is kept an old MFP that had dried out, the scanner still works, and I have a better printer off to the side.
  
  --
  APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
172. Re:bullcrap by mcgrew · 2010-09-23 06:46 · Score: 1
  
  Salt doesn't clog your arteries, it raises your blood pressure. Fats clog your arteries, which is why a lot of people won't eat bacon -- lots of salt and lots of fat in the same package. High pressure + narrow arteries = heart disease.
  Luckily for me I seem to be immune to both; my pressure's always either normal or slightly low, and my arteries are fine. I'm younger than a lot of folks who are half my age.
  
  --
  Free Martian Whores!
173. Re:bullcrap by Sancho · 2010-09-23 06:57 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Bravo! I applaud this. Too many individuals on Slashdot post comments with such conviction, yet they know nothing about the topic at hand. Too many uneducated rationalizations.
  Well, that's your opinion.
174. Re:bullcrap by QuantumBeep · 2010-09-23 06:59 · Score: 1
  
  You must live in Europe.
175. Re:bullcrap by mykey2k · 2010-09-23 07:02 · Score: 1
  
  Not sure what you're implying, but bacon salt (as well as their other line of products) are fully kosher without a hint of pork.... and looks like less sodium than salt per serving. The salts also have no fat.
  Research! Oh wait, I forgot this is Slashdot. We don't do that sort of thing.
176. Re:bullcrap by geminidomino · 2010-09-23 07:04 · Score: 1
  
  What about the law? A company can't possibly be allowed to deliver a faulty product
  Depends on where you live. "Consumer Protection" in the United States is not something most companies have to worry very much about these days, for instance.
177. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 07:08 · Score: 0
  
  Miele is great...
  If you want something almost as solid but a little cheaper, Bosch still sells solid products too -- solid as in I can actually take their products apart and service them myself when I have to (except for the circuit boards).
178. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 07:10 · Score: 0
  
  Also I'm not sure why the Snapper CEO felt intimidated (saying he literally started sweating). I certainly would not. The Walmart VP is a man and nothing more.
  Nice that you can be so indifferent to the thousands of Snapper employees depending on you to close a deal that could ensure the factory keeps running at full production, versus having to lay off a third or more of them because one of you competitors secured the largest retail distribution channel.
179. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 07:11 · Score: 0
  
  > if a protest if filed then the content must be restored
  > It may even take a lawsuit against the ISP to "educate" them about what the DMCA actually says.
  Youtube is free to remove whatever content it wishes for whatever reason, or even for no reason.
  The only time an ISP is obliged to restore content upon receipt of a counter-claim is if they were obliged to host that content in the first place. If an ISP receives a DMCA take-down notice for content which they are contractually bound to host, they aren't liable for taking it down (statute trumps contracts), but if they receive a counter-claim, any contractual obligations are restored once the two weeks is up (unless the complainant obtains an injunction within that period).
  Youtube hosts content at its pleasure; they aren't obligated to restore the video even if the creator files a counter-claim, or even the matter is decided in their favour by a court.
180. Re:bullcrap by cayenne8 · 2010-09-23 07:15 · Score: 1
  
  "Please feel free to post if you've found a source for reliable (as in 20 year life span) major appliances."
  I've not been in the market for them in a LONG time...but what about brands like SubZero...for refrigeration, and for stove/ovens...Wolfe or Vulcan?
  I've heard they aren't GREAT like years back, but I am to understand that they're still pretty good stuff. You pay a premium, but you do get what you pay for with some things.
  
  --
  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
181. Re:bullcrap by adisakp · 2010-09-23 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  Please feel free to post if you've found a source for reliable (as in 20 year life span) major appliances.
  I've only had it for about 10 years now but my Samsung refrigerator works better (quieter / lower cost of operation / more consistent temperatures / less spoilage / no food smells) after 10 years than any other refrigerators I've had including new or newer ones.
182. Re:bullcrap by adisakp · 2010-09-23 07:19 · Score: 1
  
  Ironically Bacon Salt is vegetarian and Kosher.
183. Re:bullcrap by inerlogic · 2010-09-23 07:20 · Score: 1
  
  my great-uncle sold Zenith TVs for decades....
  he had a zenith and some other brand (RCA, sony, whatever) sitting side by side and he'd ask customers to pick each one up... guess which one was heavier, and guess which is still in use 20+ years later....
184. Re:bullcrap by vux984 · 2010-09-23 07:22 · Score: 1
  
  Most components of playing music (amp, speakers, etc) haven't changed much.
  But home theatre has. And if you want to something simple like play movies on your laptop with hdmi out through your tv and stereo... its a pita.
185. Re:bullcrap by inerlogic · 2010-09-23 07:31 · Score: 1
  
  courts in the US have already ruled that in fact, no, answering machine messages and emails are private communications that belong to the sender...
  
  if Mel Gibson and that whacko chick of his were in MA, she'd be in prison for violating wiretapping laws by recording Mel without his consent... YMMV
186. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 07:40 · Score: 0
  
  The video contained images of that "Jake the ceo" guy. They may be "available on the Internet", but someone still holds the copyright for them. They should redo the video without the images. Or clearly state the video is a "documentary" and claim fair use, like news media, but even that part could be decided in court.
  The guy acted like an ass, and looked bad, but the take down notice is probably legal and right.
187. Re:bullcrap by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 07:42 · Score: 1
  
  Timer. Ovens have timers. You set the dial (or digital display) and wait for it to count down. Also real ovens have windows, which is essential for baking; you don't want to find out your 30 minute bake time proscribed in the recipe gets you just barely to the point of solid bread, but not quite, and FOOM your bread loaf collapses. I use cast iron pans, so my pans are left in a warm (100F degree) oven and left to final rise in the oven as well; but still, baking times vary based on material, and cast iron acts as one hell of a heat sink.
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
188. Re:bullcrap by zeroshade · 2010-09-23 07:49 · Score: 1
  
  That might complicate things a little bit. And I'm not a lawyer so I don't know the specifics there. However, he didn't read him a poem, or otherwise say anything to the voicemail that could be even considered as "copyrighted". You can't copyright a conversation.
189. Re:bullcrap by AK+Marc · 2010-09-23 07:51 · Score: 1
  
  Unless they've changed recently, Bosch makes great dishwashers. I love mine. And ditch your water heater for a tankless and they will all last 10 times as long as a regular water heater (Bosch makes tankless ones, but I think that's just their name on someone else's hardware). And for washing machines, you have to go with a front-loader, and for those, again, Bosch makes a great one. However, I had a need for something that would take a king-size comforter and went with another company. The over-priced LG I got on sale is doing fine so far...
  
  I think you have to abandon US products and look for foreign makes made outside China. With that in mind, I think you'll have much better luck. Fisher & Paykel make good stuff, and Bosch, and some others. But the USA companies make exclusively crap now. And it's all made outside the USA, so it's not like supporting them is any better than buying foreign. I'd rather get an LG (Korean made in Korea) than a USA company making their crap in China.
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
190. Re:bullcrap by thetoadwarrior · 2010-09-23 07:57 · Score: 1
  
  Don't discount a quality vacuum. Yes they're more costly but the Kirby I had is something I'd fear getting near my balls. The Dyson I have not fails even on hardwood. I'd hate to think what it leaves behind in carpet. Luckily I don't have carpet.
  
  the Dyson would be improved if I wash the filter now but not by much and it'll pretty much be back to "normal" after a week or two. The plastic bits broke early on. I fixed them with super glue. I suppose that's not bad that I can fix it but having nice metal parts that won't just break is better.
191. Re:bullcrap by cayenne8 · 2010-09-23 08:05 · Score: 1
  
  "I never understood why you'd want digital displays and buttons on anything; my toaster oven doesn't need a clock. Who cooks in an appliance that has a clock?"
  Well, it helps a great deal...especially when cooking multiple dishes, to keep them from over/undercooking, and to come out at the same time.
  I like my timers on my crockpot...nice to set and forget, it cooks for x hours, and then goes into 'warm' mode.
  Sunday is my cooking day, and I'm usually doing 2-4 main entree type dishes, salads and the like. Between work and going to the gym, I don't really have time to cook during the week, and I don't eat fast food, so I cook for my breakfast, lunch and dinner for most of the week. I'd rather save my dining out dollars for something a bit upscale, with good wines, and good service.
  But when I have something on 3 or all 4 stove top burners, and something in the oven, I'm constantly using my timers I have on oven and microwave (just the timer, I rarely cook in the nuke machine)...and possibly the timer on my phone.
  I guess it depends on the quality and quantity of what you cook. If you're only warming up store prepared frozen french bread pizzas in a toaster oven, no..I don't guess you're needing much in the way of clocks or timers. But if you've got a couple of chickens brining (don't want them to get too salty) while your shredding coleslaw, carmalizing onions...and have maybe a pot of chili or maybe reducing stock for a gumbo...etc....well, electronic reminders really are nice.
  
  --
  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
192. Re:bullcrap by thetoadwarrior · 2010-09-23 08:05 · Score: 1
  
  That is often true but not always. I don't drive since moving to the UK so I walk a lot and unfortunately buy more shoes than I'd like. I've bought shoes ranging form like £10 to £80. Yes, in most cases they all last approximately the same time. Comfort is hit or miss. Generally the mid-range seems to be the best where as high-end stuff is purely a name tacked on average shoes. Low-end is of course cheap buy they seem more likely to not feel as good.
  
  I'm not sure if I got lucky or not but the last pair of Diesel trainers that I've bought have so far lasted the longest and are definitely comfortable. I paid £70 for them. I was a bit hesitant but I'm glad I did.
  
  I probably will give them at least one more try again but I believe the quality of the shoe you depends more on the individual that made it than the price or at least that's what I gather from my experience so it's completely hit or miss so might as well get something that looks a bit nicer sometimes.
  
  But of course if you always get something comfortable and cheap then you'd be insane not to go for those.
193. Re:bullcrap by thetoadwarrior · 2010-09-23 08:17 · Score: 1
  
  I believe mid-range on most anything is the best option. High-end stuff is purely a brand name and nothing more. Cheap stuff is cheap. Sometimes it's acceptable sometimes it's not.
  
  One exception I think I'd make is with computers. I've yet to see anything low end that's acceptable. Sure if I shop around and build something myself then odds are it will be ok but especially with laptops I'd never go low-end.
  
  In fact I've bought my first macbook pro and I think I'm going to be hard pressed to buy anything else when this one is done. Even if I want Windows or Linux I think I'd just buy a Macbook and replace the OS.
  
  The thing runs ice cold, it's nice and thin. The metal case does feel more quality and I've not seen another laptop with a better screen. Apple's claim of 9-10 hour battery life on the 13 inch is spot on on from my experience. Hell, I've been downloading, coding and surfing the net tonight for nearly 4 hours and have used less than 50% of the battery and my screen brightness is over 50% and my back lit keyboard is on despite not needing it. Plus it boots to a usable desktop in under 5 seconds and shuts down instantly. Mind you Linux can more or less do that on the right hardware but seriously this is by far the best laptop I've had. Nothing feels cheap on it and you can't say that about a Dell.
  
  Oh and on the subject Dells are only cheap because the remove so much stuff. By the time you pay the £30 they want for flipping Bluetooth and something like £15 for a wireless card that'll do 802.11 n, then a backlit keyboard, extra memory, etc and bring it up to spec to a Macbook it's not that much cheap especially when you add in an SSD which they won't sell you on a low-end laptop you have to buy that extra and bin the HD. Yes you'll still save a couple hundred pounds but it's a plastic Dell laptop doesn't look nearly as nice in anyway and if the ones at work are anything to go by it'll start getting all loose and feeling tired in a short period of time.
194. Re:bullcrap by sexconker · 2010-09-23 08:25 · Score: 0, Flamebait
  
  I'm just going to call bullshit on everything you just said.
  Land's End and Walmart use the EXACT SAME CHINESE SWEATSHOPS to produce their goods. They use the EXACT SAME MATERIALS. The use the EXACT SAME PROCESS. They likely use the EXACT SAME WORKERS.
195. Re:bullcrap by thetoadwarrior · 2010-09-23 08:25 · Score: 1
  
  Why would I want to buy a new VCR or CD player when I have a working one? That's the kind of bullshit consumer mentality that Wal-Mart survives on. Computers are different. Software evolves and requires more power but a CD is a CD. There is just not reason to buy a new player if you have one that works. Take care of your stuff and it won't look like shit in a few years.
196. Re:bullcrap by Maxo-Texas · 2010-09-23 08:28 · Score: 1
  
  Go to the commentary sites for companies selling whirlpool water heaters (last 5-7 years - apparently often broken out of the box). It's a water heater... how hard could it be to make a durable tank with a fire under it?
  Likewise for washer/dryers and dishwashers.
  I don't know about their refrigerators.
  But basically- lots of plastic parts that don't last, cheap thermostats that don't last/work, and electronics that fail.
  
  --
  She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
197. Re:bullcrap by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 08:30 · Score: 1
  
  I like my timers on my crockpot...nice to set and forget, it cooks for x hours, and then goes into 'warm' mode.
  Latch switch. When moved out of the way, dial timer hits 0 and spring tension slides it to "off"; otherwise the blocking bar catches it and holds it at "Warm." Inspiration: Glock safety mechanism (safety bar blocks hammer from release unless trigger is pulled).
  
  But when I have something on 3 or all 4 stove top burners, and something in the oven, I'm constantly using my timers I have on oven and microwave (just the timer, I rarely cook in the nuke machine)...and possibly the timer on my phone.
  I have this, which I used to replace this. Granted, the digital was nice for having 99 minutes instead of 60 minutes; but it started acting funky in a year due to a dying battery. Also it took MUCH longer to set (beep beep beep beep beep beep beep... one minute at a time) and if I passed 30 minutes I had to go with 31 minutes or reset and start over.
  A button-pad one would have been more tolerable, but still ... the use of my wind-up Lux timer is about 1 second of no-thought no-dexterity twisting of a knob, and I have no batteries to mess with. I've also measured its calibration... it's almost dead on, maybe 2-3 seconds off for AN HOUR. Certainly, if I needed 3 timers, I'd either buy better digital kitchen timers or more analog ones; I favor the wind-up type, but I certainly don't need built-in digital timers in my oven or toaster oven (the toaster oven has spring-loaded twist dial timers, which I like).
  
  I guess it depends on the quality and quantity of what you cook. If you're only warming up store prepared frozen french bread pizzas in a toaster oven, no..I don't guess you're needing much in the way of clocks or timers. But if you've got a couple of chickens brining (don't want them to get too salty) while your shredding coleslaw, carmalizing onions...and have maybe a pot of chili or maybe reducing stock for a gumbo...etc....well, electronic reminders really are nice.
  I'd rather go with the wind-up timer. In any case, again, the digitally programmable toaster oven isn't going to help me with that (especially if I want to use it to heat something during that time). Adding digital buttons to my refrigerator (I've seen this!) isn't going to help me with that either.
  It's just one more thing to tack 50% more onto the price ($60 toaster oven becomes $100 toaster oven, $500 refrigerator becomes $800 refrigerator...). A digital oven might be nice, but that relies on a thermostat; I keep an oven thermometer in the oven so I can check calibration, whether using a gas stove with a dial or any stove with a digital temperature setting. Surprisingly, I can set 400F on my dial-set stove and get 400F+/-5F on my thermometer (more surprising that I can set an exact temperature than that the calibration is correct). If the digital oven misses on this, of course, you service the thermostat; this is maintenance.
  
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  Support my political activism on Patreon.
198. Re:bullcrap by Maxo-Texas · 2010-09-23 08:35 · Score: 1
  
  LoL. Okay mr. snarky.
  And they do advertise them as "Hot Water Heaters".
  
  --
  She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
199. Re:bullcrap by Maxo-Texas · 2010-09-23 08:42 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  The problem I have is inappropriate use of plastic.
  Using one metal gear instead of a plastic gear makes the difference between your blender being durable or being a piece of junk.
  My laptop plug broke- why? Plastic mountings. The fix? A free upgrade to a metal bracket inside.
  It's not that they replace some parts with plastic or cheap parts. It's that they replace key/high wear parts with cheap/plastic parts.
  ---
  Old story-- during world war II, they were losing bombers and so they analyzed the planes that made it back and noted the areas that were damaged and which were undamaged.
  Where did they increase the armor?
  In the areas which were not hit. Apparently hits on those areas took down the planes.
  the planes survived the areas which were getting hit a lot.
  ---
  It's okay to have a plastic container and housing on a blender. but for god's sake don't cheap out on the motor and the gears.
  And part of the problem is as you (and others) indicate, they take an expensive "name" brand and then hollow it out with lower and lower quality while still charging a premium price. So it's hard to find a reliable brand based on 3-5 year old information. it needs to be good 5 years ago and then have folks still thinking it's good today.
  
  --
  She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
200. Re:bullcrap by Proteus · 2010-09-23 08:50 · Score: 1
  
  You don't know how this works, clearly. Lands End is a manufacturer. Walmart is not. They each have different goals and different business processes. Now it's possible that LE uses the same cheap labor that some (if not most) of Walmart's suppliers use; I don't have any information either way, but it's entirely feasible that you're right. However, the process and materials probably vary quite a bit. Walmart ends up carrying cheap stuff because they leverage their large potential market to negotiate ridiculously low wholesale prices with manufacturers, and reducing them each year. Mfg's end up having to make a choice at some point: sacrifice quality, or lose out on the huge volume Walmart offers. Lots of Mfg's feel that sacrificing quality is the right call, and do so: but their products that get sold at higher prices to competing sellers are often of the original, higher quality. Lands End makes their money by using higher-quality, more-durable fabrics and processes than many of their competitors, and selling fewer items at a higher margin than Mfg's who sell to Walmart. There is a profitable market in people who will pay $40 for a $3 (cost) item that's twice as durable as a $2 (cost) item that retails for $15; just as there is a profitable market in doing the opposite.
  
  --
  We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
201. Re:bullcrap by KarrdeSW · 2010-09-23 09:03 · Score: 1
  
  Pretty much anything sold by Thinkgeek these days is poor quality. Buckyballs are apparently no different.
  Agreed, my TV-b-Gone died on me after only ONE nightclub bouncer stomped on it after realizing that I had been turning off their monitors. I would easily pay more for one that could withstand more than ten repeated stomps from steel-toed boots.
202. Re:bullcrap by Thaelon · 2010-09-23 09:07 · Score: 1
  
  Here's something interesting:
  
  Using proprietary wireless local area network (WLAN) technology
  WiFi is not proprietary. So, now I know they are willing to lie to me.
  It makes all "facts" from them suspect.
  
  --
  Question everything
203. Re:bullcrap by Dragon+Bait · 2010-09-23 09:31 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks for the suggestions -- over the last couple of months I have taken to leaving the door open and it seems to help a little. Unfortunately there's a trick to leaving the door open and opening/closing the laundry room door (they both want to occupy the same space).
  Training the other people in the house seems to be a challenge.
204. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 09:34 · Score: 0
  
  The weight is sign of reliability. If it does not work, you can always hit him with it.
205. Re:bullcrap by ooshna · 2010-09-23 10:03 · Score: 1
  
  You don't want a hot water heater to last 20yrs they get coated in so much lime it cuts the capacity in half. I think there is a saving about it something like. It only takes one person to bring one in but two to remove one.
206. Re:bullcrap by Ixitar · 2010-09-23 10:06 · Score: 1
  
  Unfortunately most of these appliances are being made in China. I was able to talk with several people who came over to Shenzhen to oversee quality from their suppliers. I was there on a software project, but stayed at the Crowne Plaza where it seems like most of them stay. The stories they told me does not inspire comfort with appliances from China. The vendors would not even have a decent bill-of-materials as the template. When one of these QA people was there before, he instructed the vendor on a proper quality build. They did that for the time that he was there. When he came back, they were back to the old build process.
  I enjoyed my stay in China, but will regard appliances made there as suspect. If I buy one, then I will inspect it thoroughly before accepting it.
  If you do go to Shenzhen, the I would recommend the Crowne Plaza. A very nice hotel that is less expensive, but is still very nice is the 999 Royal Suites and Towers.
207. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 10:09 · Score: 1
  
  >>>I have a VCR that still works (it was bought in 1993 when I was in college).
  Not really. The VCR is analog and TV (both broadcast and cable) has moved to digital, so your VCR can't record anything. Ditto a 386 computer basically being worthless. And an analog VHS-C or Video8 camcorder. These things are obsolete..... that was my original point. For SOME things it doesn't matter if they don't last 20+ years, because we consumers typically trash them as new technology comes-along.
  For THOSE items, the cheapest possible price is more important than longevity because we know, in advance, they'll be obsoleted in 5-10 years anyway.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
208. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 10:14 · Score: 1
  
  >>>Why would I want to buy a new VCR or CD player when I have a working one? That's the kind of bullshit consumer mentality that Wal-Mart survives on.
  More important question:
  Why would you want to buy a VCR or CD player?
  That was my original point: The CD player is obsolete (replaced by DVD and Bluray players). Ditto the VCR. If you spent $500 to buy a quality VCR ten years ago, you basically threw-away your money. Sure the $500 VCR will probably last until 2030, but so what? It's obsolete. The $50 Quasar model would have served you just as well (i.e. it would have lasted until you replaced it with a superior DVR or TV-PC).
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
209. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 10:18 · Score: 2
  
  >>>the Waltons (all 4 of them), each walk away with billions per year
  You've been marked insightful but it's flat wrong. The Waltons earn a lot of money, but its in the millions per year NOT billions. 1/1000th smaller than what you claimed. ----- And of course that fortune could change at any time. Look what happened to the former #1 retailer (Woolworths == bankrupt).
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
210. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 10:23 · Score: 1
  
  I would agree with you, if not for the numerous other ways Walmart saves money. When I shop there I can get identical food for 50-100 cents cheaper than the other nearby grocery stores. I bought my first Sony Bluray Player for a mere $119. Obtained a new microwave for $30 (I carry it with me to hotels). And they switched from incandescent to fluorescent bulbs in their accent lighting to save money. They also encouraged their customers to adopt the same "green" lifestyle by selling quality Philips CFLs at only $3 each - the cheapest price you can get.
  All these examples sustain my original point about Walmart having a "pinch pennies" philosophy. If only more businesses, consumers, and most importantly Congress would adopt the same approach.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
211. Re:bullcrap by djmurdoch · 2010-09-23 10:29 · Score: 1
  
  The word is "cite", not "site". I have no idea of any court cases, but the US Copyright law in section 102 clearly states that sound recordings are copyrighted. The Berne Convention also includes sound recordings, although it's worded a little less clearly (or maybe I missed the clear bit). That covers most of the world.
212. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 10:30 · Score: 1
  
  >>>I need a little more precision in setting the timer because it cooks so fast and a keypad really helps with that
  Change the power setting to 50% and then you don't need as much precision. (Also your food will taste MUCH better.) My microwave has the dial too and I find 2 minutes +/- 5 seconds is not a big deal.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
213. Re:bullcrap by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 10:33 · Score: 1
  
  I just watched an installer switch-out a dishwasher. They make it trivially easy now. Remove a piece of pipe under your sink. Install the supplied "T" pipe which drains the washer. Done.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
214. Re:bullcrap by mrmeval · 2010-09-23 10:49 · Score: 1
  
  Many of Sony's consumer products are made by third parties. When they finally lost face and gave up on betamax they farmed out VHS VCRs to another company, yet another does their alarm clock/radios, smaller Sony TV's started getting farmed out in the late 90s. In about 2001 I went into some big box store and not one Sony TV jumped out at me like they used to do. The quality had been pissed away.
  
  --
  I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
215. Re:bullcrap by hitmark · 2010-09-23 11:41 · Score: 1
  
  Could be that the plastic parts are designed to wear out first, before something like a pump have a bad failure and floods the room the machine is located in.
  There is also the increased mechanical complications when going from a dedicated spin drying drum to a single drum that do both (more gearing and such for the various speeds, rather then a dedicated engine that is hooked directly to the drum).
  i wonder tho, will 3d printing help here? if the materials used could be good enough, one could print out a new gear as needed.
  
  --
  comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
216. Re:bullcrap by LordEd · 2010-09-23 11:43 · Score: 1
  
  You can't copyright a conversation.
  At the bottom of this page:
  
  All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2010 Geeknet, Inc.
  Looks like Slashdot's legal team/person/robot thinks your comments are owned by you, which is a form of conversation.
217. Re:bullcrap by hitmark · 2010-09-23 11:44 · Score: 1
  
  Iirc, there is a claim that when the economy goes down, more people shop for quality rather then price.
  Still, i can't help wonder what effect cheap credit have on all this.
  
  --
  comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
218. Re:bullcrap by QuantumBeep · 2010-09-23 11:57 · Score: 1
  
  If you disagree, please cite a court case or state/federal law to back up your claim.
  No, I'm pretty sure you need to cite court cases. You don't get to be the "provide citations for everything you ever say" fairy.
219. Re:bullcrap by QuantumBeep · 2010-09-23 12:01 · Score: 1
  
  Let's see how long it takes for my comment to be removed.
  If there is a God, i demand that he strike me dead and burn me to a crisp right now! Heyyyy! God! Hey!
220. Re:bullcrap by AK+Marc · 2010-09-23 13:36 · Score: 1
  
  You have no copyright claim over the message, thus the DMCA could not apply.
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
221. Re:bullcrap by AK+Marc · 2010-09-23 13:42 · Score: 1
  
  The voice message never gets copyright protection just because it's a recording. The poem does, and the reading of it is a derivative work. So the previously copyrighted poem is still a copyrighted work. But the words you speak in a conversation aren't copyrighted. And the message isn't copyrighted any more or less than carrying around a recorder in your pocket. You "own" what you overhear in a conversation without copyright issues, but if you attend a play or movie, you don't (strictly on copyright issues, not privacy or wiretap issues).
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
222. Re:bullcrap by Kagetsuki · 2010-09-23 14:31 · Score: 1
  
  That is very much not true here in Japan. I had no idea they were doing that overseas but if that's what it takes to compete then that's quite unfortunate.
223. Re:bullcrap by blackraven14250 · 2010-09-23 15:35 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, I definitely botched that one. M != B.
  As for Woolworth's, that company went out of business because it decided to stop focusing on discount and low price stores, and instead diversified into a large number of specialty shops. I doubt Walmart is going to make that kind of decision anytime soon, considering their investment into gigantic standalone stores and not mall outlets.
224. Re:bullcrap by omnichad · 2010-09-23 15:41 · Score: 1
  
  I do take advantage of the different power settings - which is also not a dial. I'm also a hybrid cooker. I'll heat the inside of a frozen burrito in a microwave, and then I'll put it in a toaster oven for a few minutes for a crispy shell.
  Precision is for the things that take very little time - like melting shredded cheese on top of something. Even at 50%, there's a noticeable difference between 15 and 20 seconds.
225. Re:bullcrap by BillX · 2010-09-23 16:00 · Score: 1
  
  Careful with that. I recently rebuilt my broken not-quite-5-years-old S*ars (rebadged appliances from Whirl***/Electrol**/etc.) washing machine...on opening it, find that it is designed with about 50-100lb. of cinderblocks (yes, really) bolted onto the drum to help stabilize it during the spin cycle.
  
  --
  Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
226. Re:bullcrap by ultranova · 2010-09-23 16:15 · Score: 1
  
  I take it you don't fancy property rights?
  
  I don't fancy them trumping all other rights.
  
  --
  Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
227. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 16:50 · Score: 0
  
  You still have vacuum cleaner bags?!?
228. Re:bullcrap by Jawnn · 2010-09-23 16:57 · Score: 1
  
  Mod parent up.
  For a wonderful, albeit somewhat depressing documentary of how property rights have been allowed to trump just about every other, watch "The Unforseen". You will see people earnestly and blithely insist that ownership of a property gives them the right to do with it whatever they please, no matter how it affects others. The thoughtless sense of entitlement is stunning in it's arrogance, and yet it is that same notion, that in a civilized society, our "rights" trump all of our responsibilities, that has permeated a good portion of the public psyche and led to senseless polarization we see today.
229. Re:bullcrap by mldi · 2010-09-23 17:18 · Score: 1
  
  Precisely. I've seen the same trend in snow blowers. They make the throwers out of plastic now, even the crazy expensive ones, so they pop off constantly. The engines go bad after a few years (seriously, these things are used a very limited number of times a year and they STILL go bad that quickly). Even the fuel lines dissolve quicker.
  The one I'm using is nearly 20 years old, and it's built like a rock. It churns through anything and it keeps on chugging along. It requires a few minor repairs every few years, but that's about it.
  
  --
  If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
230. Re:bullcrap by thetoadwarrior · 2010-09-23 17:26 · Score: 1
  
  $500 for 10 years isn't that bad. Anyone who can't afford $50 a year probably shouldn't have a VCR fullstop. Given that VCRs were on their way out 10 years ago I could only assume the $500 would have more features and a higher quality where as the $50 one will literally just do a bog standard job. I think anyone who wants a bog standard job wouldn't buy the expensive one. Those who may want to retain the best recording quality or want different sorts or connections will pay more.
  
  I have nice things and cheap things. It depends what I want and most other people will be the same. Cooks will buy exepnsive pans but they appreciate and will probably own them longer where as it would be lost on me.
  
  That said buying virtually eveything from wal-mart is a good sign you've failed in life and probably live in a trailer.
231. Re:bullcrap by Pieroxy · 2010-09-23 18:25 · Score: 1
  
  What difference is there between a fact and an opinion in the end ?
  
  --
  Write boring code, not shiny code!
232. Re:bullcrap by SharpFang · 2010-09-23 19:15 · Score: 1
  
  I tend to disagree.
  I find basic tennis shoes to be much more comfortable than most "designer" stuff. There may be a difference with winter boots but I can still find very comfortable cheap boots, and happened to have uncomfortable expensive boots as well.
  And I got very used to simple keyboards. I have a Model M (where the connector went faulty) and it is better than the simplest keyboards. I have an expensive copy of Model M and it sucks. I was using employer-issued Logitech for a year and felt no difference whatsoever from the cheapest one.
  This is not an universal rule. Cheap computer mice tend to suck balls. Medium ones don't differ from the top in a noticeable way though. Cheapest coffee is undrinkable, but move a shelf up and it gets quite good - actually the tastiest coffee I even drank was only 30% real coffee. Then they went "quality", bumped natural coffee content to 60% and the taste has gone out the window. I tried some top brands and custom mixes and none gets close.
  
  --
  45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
233. Re:bullcrap by u38cg · 2010-09-23 20:05 · Score: 1
  
  What about all the stuff from that era that was *not* that well made? People don't keep it lying around to show their grandkids: the idea that older appliances were better is a self-selecting myth. Some of it was good, but then so is much of the stuff we make nowadays.
  
  --
  [FUCK BETA]
234. Re:bullcrap by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-24 00:40 · Score: 1
  
  The cotton Land's End uses is imported Peruvian cotton that's been brushed. Brushing raw cotton causes weak fibers to break into shorter fibers and draws shorter fibers out of the feed. This means all the stuff that would normally wiggle its way out (as lint) comes out BEFORE the fiber gets spun into thread and woven into fabric.
  Besides. I've owned both for several years. Theory vs reality: it actually happens this way, so the theory that says that isn't possible is flawed.
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
235. Re:bullcrap by Maxo-Texas · 2010-09-24 00:43 · Score: 1
  
  I looked at these and this is the problem.
  I can either buy these which are ridiculously expensive ($3000 for an appliance???)
  Or I can buy cheap crap for $450.
  In the 80's and 90's I could find something in the middle. A quality product without a luxury finish.
  
  --
  She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
236. Re:bullcrap by clone53421 · 2010-09-24 01:48 · Score: 1
  
  the US Copyright law in section 102 clearly states that sound recordings are copyrighted
  By the person making the recording, yeah... which means that if my voice mailbox makes a recording of you, it belongs to me.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
237. Re:bullcrap by djmurdoch · 2010-09-24 01:55 · Score: 1
  
  No, by the author. If you photocopy a book, you're the one making the copy, but that doesn't give you copyright in contents of the book. If you attend a free concert and record it, you don't get copyright in all the songs that were played. If you record what someone says to you, the copyright in their words stays with them.
  If you put some authorship into the recording (e.g. by putting together a video), then you'll own copyright on the video as a whole, but you don't obtain copyright on everything shown in it.
238. Re:bullcrap by clone53421 · 2010-09-24 02:18 · Score: 1
  
  No, by the author.
  I am the author. Same as if I interviewed you, wrote down your exact words, and published a book that quoted you. My machine took down a dictation from you, for me, with your consent. It’s mine.
  
  If you photocopy a book, you're the one making the copy, but that doesn't give you copyright in contents of the book.
  That’s because the book had those terms printed right inside the front cover and copyright law allows for this. If you had prefaced the voicemail message with a statement that this conversation was to be off-the-record, this might have been a valid way of changing the implied terms of the recording so that you retained some of your rights (I’m not sure how much of this is codified in law and how much is merely unwritten laws of journalistic integrity – and I’m sure the laws vary by jurisdiction). Otherwise, I can do as I wish with it.
  
  If you attend a free concert and record it, you don't get copyright in all the songs that were played.
  No, only a recording of them that you would otherwise own, had not the event had signs posted everywhere telling you that you weren’t allowed to make recordings, and which terms you agreed to implicitly when you bought your ticket and came. And as you said, you still wouldn’t own the songs... only the recording.
  
  If you record what someone says to you, the copyright in their words stays with them.
  Citation needed. Plenty of states have one-party consent laws under which I can record anything you say to me, without your knowledge, and use it for any purpose I wish (obviously except using it to commit fraud, blackmail, or something else that would be illegal on its own merit).
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
239. Re:bullcrap by Mattcelt · 2010-09-24 02:26 · Score: 1
  
  "willing to bet" != proof.
  I had the option of paying $60 for a pair of (decent) off-brand cleats or $150 for a pair of Nike cleats. I bought the Nike pair, thinking the quality was worth the price. Ten YEARS of heavy use later (that's ten seasons of football (soccer) and ultimate frisbee) they are still going strong and do not need to be repaired. So assuming the $60 pair lasted 3 years, that's $20/year vs. $15/year for mine. Add to that that the pair I bought had several useful features the others lacked that have served me well for the past decade, and I am absolutely certain I got the best value for my money.
240. Re:bullcrap by djmurdoch · 2010-09-24 02:53 · Score: 1
  
  Here's a citation:
  http://www.publaw.com/biography.html
  Look down to the "Copyright Infringement" section. It's about publishing private letters, but you're the one who's going to have to show that answering machine messages are treated differently than letters.
  In summary, it says that it might be fair use to quote from a private letter, but the copyright in the letter stays with the author, not the recipient.
241. Re:bullcrap by clone53421 · 2010-09-24 03:03 · Score: 1
  
  That’s because if you wrote me a letter you recorded the message onto the paper. You only dictate a voicemail; my machine makes the recording.
  Note that the content of the message is still subject to fair use, even if the letter itself was penned by you and so I don’t really own the rights to republish it in its entirety.
  A voicemail on the other hand is not only similarly subject to fair use of its content but is also in fact owned by me because my answering machine recorded it.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
242. Re:bullcrap by djmurdoch · 2010-09-24 03:27 · Score: 1
  
  Citation, please.
243. Re:bullcrap by clone53421 · 2010-09-24 03:48 · Score: 1
  
  I used yours. And the distinction between a letter and a voicemail message doesn’t need a citation; it’s a simple fact. The letter was recorded by you and you have a common-law copyright to it while I simply have certain fair use rights to its contents; the voicemail message is recorded by my message machine and you implicitly transferred the ownership to me by dictating it for my machine to record. And I still have fair use rights to its contents.
  Perhaps it’d help if we considered a case in-between the letter and the voicemail message: suppose you dictated the letter to your secretary. Who owns the letter: you, the secretary, or me? Answer: You, since you were having your authorised representative take down the message. Whereas, if you had stopped by my office and dictated the message to my secretary, the rights would belong to me unless there was some other arrangement between us that contractually limited my rights on the message that was taken down by my secretary.
  In any case you may wonder why the secretary didn’t have the rights to the letter, since (after all) she wrote it down. In fact she would have the rights to it, except that I assume in most cases the terms of her employment would specify that anything she writes for me belongs to me (possibly with confidentiality/non-disclosure limitations as well).
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
244. Re:bullcrap by sexconker · 2010-09-24 04:25 · Score: 0, Troll
  
  Brushed imported Peruvian cotton vs what, exactly?
  What do you think WalMart uses? (The exact same shit, but it costs less because they're not trying to convince you Peruvian cotton is magical). The machines that take the raw cotton and create useful fabric do the same exact shit your expensive clothes had done to them.
  Theory vs reality?
  Here's some reality.
  You don't even know that what you're describing is called pilling.
  You have ZERO knowledge of the textile industry.
  Your label clothes last longer because you treat them better, and you want to believe they're better.
245. Re:bullcrap by djmurdoch · 2010-09-24 04:25 · Score: 1
  
  I used yours.
  That's complete bullshit. The citation I posted said that Hemingway retained copyright to his side of a conversation with an interviewer. It didn't say anything about the ownership of the recording device.
  If I record a message on your machine, I retain copyright on it. You have fair use rights to quote from it, but there's no "implicit transfer of ownership". That's what my citation said. If you disagree, find one that supports your made up rules.
246. Re:bullcrap by sexconker · 2010-09-24 04:36 · Score: 0, Flamebait
  
  Land's End uses the same quality materials and same processes as their competition.
  They simply have more.
  With regards to WalMart forcing manufacturers to drop prices annually, the trend has simply been to loosen quality control tolerance. This is why WalMart has a ridiculous return policy. They know they're forcing manufacturers to let defective product through. They're banking (correctly) on the majority of people not returning the subpar items.
  At WalMart, you can return nearly anything they sell, in any condition. I believe the only exceptions are the obvious ones - alcohol, prescription drugs, and food you bought out of the McDonald's that happens to be in the same building.
  Indeed, rejects from shit destined for Land's End or some other label will be sold off to other stores.
  You can buy a major label and pay tons of money.
  Or you can go to WalMart or some such and get the exact same thing for far, far less. Hell, at Ross, you get the exact same items, that were destined to be the exact same brand, you just have to put up with a minor, typically cosmetic, defect.
  There's no difference between the clothing industry and the pharmaceutical industry (buying generics), or the cable industry (Monoprice vs retail), or the bottled water industry (filtered tap water vs filtered tap water vs filtered tap water).
247. Re:bullcrap by clone53421 · 2010-09-24 04:58 · Score: 1
  
  Your article presented a completely different scenario, so you can’t argue that it supports your position. A conversation is not a recording, and a recording is not a conversation. That’s precisely why there have to be laws concerning whether or not or under what conditions it’s acceptable to make recordings of conversations: because conversations and recordings are completely different things and treated completely differently from a legal point of view.
  
  If I record a message on your machine, I retain copyright on it. You have fair use rights to quote from it, but there's no "implicit transfer of ownership". That's what my citation said.
  No, your citation said that someone owns a common law copyright to what they say in a private conversation. It does not say anything at all about what rights you retain if you record a message on an answering machine. If anything, my releasing the message to the public could be considered a breach of confidence, but exactly what sort of confidence is assumed in a voice mail message is not well defined from a legal point of view AFAIK. There’s no implied or explicit agreement that I can’t tell everyone what you said in your message, and replaying it is fair use under that intention.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
248. Re:bullcrap by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-24 05:14 · Score: 1
  
  LOL treat them better. I wash the god damn things in a washing machine WITH the shitty wal-mart clothes. I ball them up and throw them in the hamper when I'm done. I don't even know what the drying cycle is; I just toss them in with a pile of clothes on high heat. Detergent (same shit I wash my dishes in, same bottle), oxyclean (the water here is YELLOW when it comes out of the faucet; I've seen it run RED like blood), borax if I've made the mistake of washing it with a rag I used to season cast iron (which means completely soaked through with Crisco).
  I don't go out a lot. I don't roll in the dirt or play sports or whatever. My clothes experience the back of my car seat and my office chair. They take a thousand times more beating in one washing cycle than they take being worn for a year. Do you know what happens after the second or third wash for a WalMart no-brand shirt? Buttons fall off or the fabric starts to fray, get fuzzy in places (like it's been sanded), or tear at the seams (yes this happens). Most often, hem lines start to fail really early; oddly enough, the edges of sleeves or the bottom of a shirt start to fray and tear early, and there's almost no mechanical stress there at all.
  What exactly can I do to clothes to treat them better? My understanding is you wear them, pile them together, separate white ones out, and wash them with a bottle of SLS and a scoop of OxyClean or sodium carbonate. Some of my shirts and pants might need ironing now... I got them what.. June 2008? I should buy an iron one day... how do I use one though?
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
249. Re:bullcrap by zeroshade · 2010-09-24 05:57 · Score: 1
  
  1) Just because someone SAYS you have a copyright on something, doesn't mean that you legally do.
  2) Spoken word conversation is not the same as written word when it comes to copyright. You can't copyright a vocal conversation that you have with someone. You could potentially copyright a specific recording, but the copyright would lie with whoever made the recording. The only trickiness is that the recording must have been made legally. In this case, a voicemail, he knew he was being recorded and thus the recording is completely legal.
  If you openly record me saying something to you. You can copyright the recording, I can't copyright what I said. See the difference?
250. Re:bullcrap by zeroshade · 2010-09-24 05:58 · Score: 1
  
  And when someone falsely claims copyright for something under the DMCA, then there should be a punishment of some kind.
251. Re:bullcrap by djmurdoch · 2010-09-24 05:59 · Score: 1
  
  Nice try, troll.
252. Re:bullcrap by zeroshade · 2010-09-24 06:02 · Score: 1
  
  But it's not copyrighted by default.
  The difference here is that the episode of Stargate is already copyrighted. Therefore distributing my legal copy would be violating the copyright of SyFy who owns the copyright to Stargate.
  You own no copyright to the message you left on my voicemail because you can't copyright spoken conversation. Therefore there's no copyright issue here. You consented to being recorded, therefore live with the consequences of it.
253. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-25 23:29 · Score: 0
  
  Pork! It's the meat of kings!
  http://www.weebls-stuff.com/songs/Pork/
254. Re:bullcrap by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-26 04:23 · Score: 0
  
  I have found recently that some Chinese manufactures will include cavities filled with rocks and welding slag to give the perception of heft.
The Question by Ltap · 2010-09-23 00:50 · Score: 4, Interesting

News about an unfair DMCA takedown (don't worry, there are thousands of those) or free advertising for Zen Magnets? You decide.

--
Yet Another Tech Blog
(but so much more, including game and movie reviews)
http://yanteb.peasantoid.org
1. Re:The Question by OneAhead · 2010-09-23 01:32 · Score: 1
  
  Buckyballs, meet Streisand
2. Re:The Question by human-cyborg · 2010-09-23 03:59 · Score: 1
  
  News about an unfair DMCA takedown (don't worry, there are thousands of those) or free advertising for Zen Magnets? You decide.
  --
  Yet Another Tech Blog
  (but so much more, including game and movie reviews)
  http://yanteb.peasantoid.org/
  
  Comment about a story about an unfair DMCA takedown (don't worry, there are thousands of those) or free advertising for Yet Another Tech Blog? You decide.
3. Re:The Question by Ltap · 2010-09-23 06:23 · Score: 1
  
  Advertising. Definitely advertising.
  
  --
  Yet Another Tech Blog
  (but so much more, including game and movie reviews)
  http://yanteb.peasantoid.org
4. Re:The Question by scdeimos · 2010-09-23 10:41 · Score: 1
  
  Advertising, definitely...
  After RTFA I watched the video on the Zen Magnets home page, and I watched the ZM-BB comparison video linked in the update to the summary. Thank you, Zen Magnets, I'm looking forward to my new sets arriving RSN.
Fair Use by Sonny+Yatsen · 2010-09-23 00:51 · Score: 4, Informative

One of the specifically noted exception to American Trademark Fair Use is that you can use a competitor's name in an advertisement as a way of comparing your product with theirs. Since the whole point of trademarks is to inform customers about the source and quality of a product, the whole trademark infrastructure is geared toward benefiting the customer. So we want want companies to say "My brand X is better than brand Y!". Buckyballs, if Zen Magnets don't back down and this goes to court, have no case.

--
My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
1. Re:Fair Use by Sonny+Yatsen · 2010-09-23 00:52 · Score: 1
  
  Er, not exception, but example (I need coffee).
  
  --
  My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
2. Re:Fair Use by Teancum · 2010-09-23 01:27 · Score: 1
  
  It should also be pointed out that fair use exemptions also apply to short excerpts used for criticism. Generally this applies to something like a couple of screen shots of a computer game or a few seconds from a movie for a "review", but it can also apply to something like what is being done here with the voicemail message. Yes, the voicemail copyright is owned by Buckyballs, but is use and reproduction is protected under copyright law by way of the fair use clause. Making commentary about a recording is perfectly legal. If this isn't commentary about a recording, I don't know what else would be called commentary.
3. Re:Fair Use by Theaetetus · 2010-09-23 01:36 · Score: 1
  
  One of the specifically noted exception to American Trademark Fair Use is that you can use a competitor's name in an advertisement as a way of comparing your product with theirs. Since the whole point of trademarks is to inform customers about the source and quality of a product, the whole trademark infrastructure is geared toward benefiting the customer. So we want want companies to say "My brand X is better than brand Y!". Buckyballs, if Zen Magnets don't back down and this goes to court, have no case.
  Having not seen the complaint, I can't verify, but DMCA takedown notices are for copyright violations, not trademark violations. You're correct in that nominative fair use is an exception to trademark infringement in Lanham sec. 43, but if they filed a DMCA takedown, then they're not claiming trademark infringement. Nominative fair use is not an exception to copyright infringement.
  My guess is that Buckyball's CEO is claiming copyright in the voicemail. Who retains copyright on it - the sender or the receiver - would be a matter of state law and may vary by jurisdiction.
4. Re:Fair Use by Sonny+Yatsen · 2010-09-23 01:51 · Score: 1
  
  You're absolutely correct. Clearly, I should coffee up before I post.
  
  --
  My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
5. Re:Fair Use by Beorytis · 2010-09-23 03:01 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Another important class of fair uses is parody, and there's no way the photos of Jake Brownstein in the video were not intended as parody.
6. Re:Fair Use by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:53 · Score: 0
  
  Also to point out you can get them at about half of what each of these guys are selling them at. (about 11-17 cents per sphere)
  The magic words to search for are '.5mm sphere neodymium' These sets contain 216 spheres which makes a 6x6x6 cube. I have seen them as low as 6 bucks vs the 25 zen wants and 30-35 bucky wants.
  In this case buckyball was first to get a brand following for it. Putting them together is not that hard... Quality of the magnets themselves does vary so watch what you get. From the coating to the strength. Nickle plated is what you want. Also do not go overboard with the gauss level as they are just a toy :)
7. Re:Fair Use by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 05:25 · Score: 0
  
  Since the whole point of trademarks is to inform customers about the source and quality of a product,
  No, the point of trademarks is to clearly identify the product, so that other products aren't mistaken for yours and cause confusion in the marketplace.
  It's up the the customer to make their own decision as the the product's quality.
  Reminds me of ISO9000. ISO9000 says nothing about the quality of a given product, although some people mistakenly think it does. ISO9000 says that your product process has been well-documented, traceable, audited & repeatable. But it can still be a crappy product.
Counter-takedown notice? by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 00:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

YouTube is probably laughing right now... if anybody human actually saw it so soon.
Not the way it should be, of course... a counter-takedown notice is basically legal notice that you, the uploader, take full legal responsibility for the content, and they must IMMEDIATELY restore it – and they face full legal responsibility of any losses you incur if they do not!
(Personally I’d love to see the outcome of a lawsuit to try to recoup damages from YouTube after a counter-takedown notice was ignored. Granted they have other stuff in their TOS that pretty much makes them not liable for anything, but if they explicitly took something down because of the DMCA, shouldn’t they be liable under its terms?)

--
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
1. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by Coopjust · 2010-09-23 01:02 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  The reddit link seems to indicate that they're in the process of making sure they're completely clear:
  
  Decision is we're going to do a counter-notification, but we're gonna have a lawyer back us up. (Especially since there have been good points about potential $$$ damages for perjuring a false copyright take-down.)
  The video has been reuploaded to Youtube by a few others though.
2. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:17 · Score: 1
  
  >>>they have other stuff in their TOS that pretty much makes Youtube not liable for anything
  When Paypal was drug into court, the judge nullified most of their TOS by saying State and Federal law overrules a mere contract. I suspect Youtube's TOS would face a similar nullification.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
3. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by thoromyr · 2010-09-23 02:20 · Score: 1
  
  Where are you getting your information? The OSP is not obligated to "IMMEDIATELY" restore the content. Nor does a counterclaim legal notice that the uploader "take full legal responsibility." If that were the case then such documentation could be filed pre-emptively to avoid a take down, but that is not the case. An OSP is required to take down material claimed to be infringing on receipt of such claim (when properly filed according to the provisions of the DMCA). There is also no statement in the DMCA that an OSP faces "full legal responsibility of any losses" incurred due to the pulling of content.
  Why do I know this? Because I process DMCA complaints. Because I've read the DMCA. Because we've received a complaint for original material produced by one of our faculty. The plaintiff stated, under penalty of perjury, that our content was material that belonged to them. Guess what happened? We had to take it down. We referred to general counsel and we had to keep it down for, I forget, at least a month IIRC. For content that was produced by our faculty.
  Wikipedia has a reasonable run down of the process http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation_Act
4. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by cob666 · 2010-09-23 02:43 · Score: 1
  
  From what I've been told time and time again by lawyers, law trumps contract.
  
  --
  Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
5. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 02:58 · Score: 1
  
  You (like most who “know” what they’re doing, I’d guess) are pretty well aware of the implications of a takedown notice, and pretty (blissfully perhaps) unaware of the implications of a counter-takedown notice. (This is, I think, often the case because the takedown notice usually has high-priced lawyers behind it, and the counter-takedown notice usually has “cuz I said so” written pretty plainly between the lines of actual print.)
  http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca/counter512.pdf (disregard .pdf extension, it isn’t)
  Basically, the matter can be broken down into arrangements/liabilities between parties:
  - User-hoster arrangement; user uploads content and hoster hosts it.
  - Claimant issues a DMCA takedown: Liability now lies EITHER between claimant and hoster, or between claimant and user, DEPENDING on hoster’s action.
  - Assume in this case that they remove the content, in which case liability will lie between claimant and user. Generally the process stops here, because claimant usually has high-powered lawyers and user typically does not.
  - However, user, in this case, hires lawyers of their own and issues counter-takedown notice: Liability now lies either between user and claimant or between user and hoster, depending on whether or not hoster restores the content.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
6. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 03:08 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, and it’s worth repeating. POTENTIAL DAMAGES.
  
  we're gonna have a lawyer back us up. (Especially since there have been good points about potential $$$ damages for perjuring a false copyright take-down.)
  A DMCA takedown is a slip of paper that says “hi my name is jimbob and I’ll sic my lawyers on you if you don’t remove xyz!”
  A DMCA counter-takedown is a slip of paper that says “um no actually I’ll sic my lawyers on you if you don’t put it back quick!”
  EITHER PARTY could be bluffing, and either party could also be downright lying under the assumption that the OTHER party won’t take the matter to court.
  A takedown is a slip of paper that says “under penalty of perjury, I assert that this content violates my copyright”.
  A counter-takedown is a slip of paper that says “under penalty of perjury, no it did not (p.s. and that other guy just committed perjury)”.
  I say again: either could be bluffing; either could be lying.
  -
  Basically what I’m trying to get at is that a counter-takedown isn’t something that your typical YouTube user should be thinking “oh they took down my video because of the song in the background? imma send an e-mail and have them put it back”. Leaving it alone makes you pretty much okay: guy got mad, guy had your stuff taken down, guy is mostly happy now we hope. Sending the counter notice EXPLICITLY makes you LIABLE if your content DID violate a copyright.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
7. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 04:24 · Score: 1
  
  (Personally I’d love to see the outcome of a lawsuit to try to recoup damages from YouTube after a counter-takedown notice was ignored. Granted they have other stuff in their TOS that pretty much makes them not liable for anything, but if they explicitly took something down because of the DMCA, shouldn’t they be liable under its terms?)
  I would laugh if Google caused a situation like that, argued weakly, then paid them to go away rather than hitting appeals court. Why? Because next time they get Viacomm etc showing up with takedowns and they put material back up after a counter-notice, they can just blindly point at case law. They could even automate the process. "Your video was taken down by complaint here, click here to accept liability for accused copyright infringement and restore your video immediately."
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
8. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 04:26 · Score: 1
  
  The plaintiff stated, under penalty of perjury, that our content was material that belonged to them. Guess what happened? We had to take it down. We referred to general counsel and we had to keep it down for, I forget, at least a month IIRC. For content that was produced by our faculty.
  You didn't tell them to shove it and see you in court?
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
9. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by canavan · 2010-09-23 04:37 · Score: 1
  [...]and they must IMMEDIATELY restore it – and they face full legal responsibility of any losses you incur if they do not!
  Sadly. that's not the case.
  
  (1) No liability for taking down generally. — Subject to paragraph (2), a service provider shall not be liable to any person for any claim based on the service provider's good faith disabling of access to, or removal of, material or activity claimed to be infringing or based on facts or circumstances from which infringing activity is apparent, regardless of whether the material or activity is ultimately determined to be infringing.
  (2) Exception. — Paragraph (1) shall not apply with respect to material residing at the direction of a subscriber of the service provider on a system or network controlled or operated by or for the service provider that is removed, or to which access is disabled by the service provider, pursuant to a notice provided under subsection (c)(1)(C), unless the service provider —
  
  (A) takes reasonable steps promptly to notify the subscriber that it has removed or disabled access to the material;
  (B) upon receipt of a counter notification described in paragraph (3), promptly provides the person who provided the notification under subsection (c)(1)(C) with a copy of the counter notification, and informs that person that it will replace the removed material or cease disabling access to it in 10 business days; and
  (C) replaces the removed material and ceases disabling access to it not less than 10, nor more than 14, business days following receipt of the counter notice, unless its designated agent first receives notice from the person who submitted the notification under subsection (c)(1)(C) that such person has filed an action seeking a court order to restrain the subscriber from engaging in infringing activity relating to the material on the service provider's system or network.
  And if that doesn't help, there's certainly something in youtube's terms and conditions that they can host or not host anything they want at any time they want for any or no reason, and that it is your own fault to rely on their services. I'd expect their liability to be limited to what you pay them for hosting your content, some very low symbolic amount or just plain nothing, whichever they can get away with in the relevant jurisdiction.
10. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 04:43 · Score: 1
  
  Obviously not.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
11. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 04:46 · Score: 1
  
  Um, did you actually read what you posted? (2).(B) and (C) places an explicit exception to the general non-liability offered under (1) if the service provider receives a counter-notice and subsequently fails to restore the material...
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
12. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 04:53 · Score: 1
  
  They could even automate the process. "Your video was taken down by complaint here, click here to accept liability for accused copyright infringement and restore your video immediately."
  Problem with that being they would then be mired in legal battles to try to extract a few drops of blood from the turnip-heads who clicked it with no concern for its meaning.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
13. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by AK+Marc · 2010-09-24 06:55 · Score: 1
  
  Uh, no. The DMCA takedown is to get content pulled. It has no bearing on the liability of the poster. If you violated copyright, they can prosecute you if they don't issue a takedown. If you violated copyright, they can have it taken down and prosecute you. If you violated copyright, they can prosecute you if you issued a counter-takedown. DMCA affects YouTube's liability, not the posters.
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
14. Re:Counter-takedown notice? by clone53421 · 2010-09-24 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  Unless you’re in the big leagues, they’ll probably be happy enough as long as it’s just taken down. But yeah, you’re correct, they could go after you if they wanted to.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Can Zen Magnets sue? by postermmxvicom · 2010-09-23 00:55 · Score: 1

Is it possible to sue someone for this kind of abuse? I know that if Zen Magnets were infringing and filed a counter notice that Zen Magnets could be sued. What about this situation? Is there any legal remedy for abusing DCMA? Is the DCMA silent on this kind of thing?

--
One last thing: Sometimes I wonder; "Is that someone's signature? Or do they type that at the end of each post?"
1. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by hedwards · 2010-09-23 01:02 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Yeah, there are penalties. Out of 512. Limitations on liability relating to material online
  
  (f) Misrepresentations.— Any person who knowingly materially misrepresents under this section—
  (1) that material or activity is infringing, or
  (2) that material or activity was removed or disabled by mistake or misidentification,
  
  shall be liable for any damages, including costs and attorneys’ fees, incurred by the alleged infringer, by any copyright owner or copyright owner’s authorized licensee, or by a service provider, who is injured by such misrepresentation, as the result of the service provider relying upon such misrepresentation in removing or disabling access to the material or activity claimed to be infringing, or in replacing the removed material or ceasing to disable access to it.
2. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by kurokame · 2010-09-23 01:06 · Score: 1
  
  Which is to say that even if you're fighting with high-caliber corporate lawyers, the law still favors the abuser as long as they show any moderation whatsoever.
3. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by Teancum · 2010-09-23 01:44 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  The problem here is that while this may seem like abuse, I think the law is on the side of Buckyballs here in terms of a potential copyright violation. Fair use is a defense against copyright infringement and while you and I may think that the content is clearly used properly under fair use provisions, that is not a proven legal fact until it has been tested in court. The counter take-down notice (demanding that the content be restored) is indeed the proper legal remedy that should have been followed here, not suing Buckyballs into the ground on this issue.
  The voicemail and the images clearly are copyrighted by Buckyballs, and the DMCA notice was to take the content down. If you post something that contains copyrighted content belonging to somebody else, even if it being used under clear fair-use provisions, it can be subject to a DMCA take-down notice. If that happens to you, live with it and file the counter notice if you want it put back up... or simply live with it being gone.
  Where the penalties come in is if you start to file take down notices for things you don't even own or if you keep filing a take down notice for the same content (or similar content) even after it has gone to court where it has been proven as legitimate fair use. The above post by hedwards goes into the formal legal citation for this.
4. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by Coopjust · 2010-09-23 03:23 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  The voicemail was left on the mailbox of a recipient. A voicemail is a knowingly made recording, and one that has no reasonable expectation of privacy.
  
  I'm no lawyer, but if a voicemail sender retains copyright on their message, I have no idea how a site like Audioo (which shares embarrassing voicemails with the world) hasn't been sued into oblivion yet.
  
  As far as the images of Jake (Buckyballs CEO) used in the presentation go (which are images from Google Images, all freely available, used as a representation of a subject matter at a low resolution), I am extremely doubtful. I'm not a lawyer, and it's why Zen is consulting one.
  
  There was no other property belonging to Buckyballs. The trademark was identified as that of a competitor, so there's no basis for a trademark infringement claim. The rest of the video was recorded entirely by Zen Magnets.
5. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by fwr · 2010-09-23 03:45 · Score: 1
  
  With the usual caveat of IANAL, I don't believe the voicemail is the property of Buckyballs. They left the voice mail, but they left it on someone else's voice mail system. The recording is owned by the receiver of the message, not the sender. Now if the message were recorded on a tape, CD, or some other device, and the device was sent to the recipient, I suppose an argument could be made that the original recording is copyright Buckyballs, but not a traditional voice mail. There is probably relevant case law on the matter, but again IANAL. As far as the images, that all depends on where they were obtained from. Many, if not most, social networking sites, which I'm assuming these were grabbed from, explicitly state in their terms that you give up copyright on anything that you post. So even the images may, in fact, be non-infringing. So, there are really two issues here. One issue is the original complain in the voice mail, which I don't believe BuckyBalls has a leg to stand on in court. The second issue is the use of copyrighted material (the voice mail and the images of the BuckBalls guy acting like an idiot), which BuckyBalls may or may not have a valid claim on. Don't confuse the comparison of the products with the DCMA take down notice. Cheers!
6. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 04:16 · Score: 1
  
  Hell, some states have one-party consent laws – if you simply know somebody is listening, you can be recorded.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
7. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 04:19 · Score: 1
  
  Now if the message were recorded on a tape, CD, or some other device, and the device was sent to the recipient, I suppose an argument could be made that the original recording is copyright Buckyballs, but not a traditional voice mail.
  Yes, and dammit, that’s the whole problem with copyright... turning a plain and simple notion of “who are these morons who think they can actually own this bit of information?” into “wait, do I own the media, or the information it contains, or both, or neither, or am I licensed to use it but don’t own it and can that license be revoked and how or why and ... (head asplode)”
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
8. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 04:41 · Score: 1
  
  The counter take-down notice (demanding that the content be restored) is indeed the proper legal remedy that should have been followed here, not suing Buckyballs into the ground on this issue.
  If you get caught in a Snapback, it's usually your own fault.
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
9. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by Teancum · 2010-09-23 05:53 · Score: 1
  
  It is called performance rights, as spelled out explicitly on audio recordings. The performer (in this case the CEO of BuckyBalls) owns copyright automatically as soon as the recording is "fixed in a medium". That it is his voice is not under dispute and even cited in the video as to who is speaking. It doesn't even matter if they recorded it first, the performer owns the rights.
  This is also why "bootlegging" a concert by bringing in a recording device can be prosecuted. It doesn't matter if it is your equipment, if you didn't have permission or a license to record that music from the performer, you can't reproduce that recording. Yes, I do realize that recording a Paul McCartney concert when you are sitting on the front row is a slightly different situation than recording a phone conversation, but the law is essentially the same either way.
  I admit this is a stretch, and certainly the use of the voicemail is something that I believe to be a proper fair use exemption, but the voice mail copyright clearly does belong to the CEO who was speaking. It can't be reproduced without his consent or unless you are following fair-use principles.
  For myself, this is one of the reasons I hate automagic granting of copyright, as it throws situations like this into a tailspin. I personally prefer that copyrighted material is formally registered with a national registration entity... such as the Library of Congress in the United States. This used to be the law in America where you had to make a formal effort to register copyright before you had its protection. For a book, movie, or even a recording that wasn't too difficult as it was relatively cheap (it still is less than $50 even now) and it does some good too in terms of having a place where your stuff is officially archived (which is how the Library of Congress got all of its books).
  I'm just saying that the makers of the Zen Magnets should play this thing out, get a really good lawyer, and not be worrying about trying to prove damages for an action that looks like is going to make their company a whole bunch of money anyway through the Barbara Streisand effect. The take down might just be perfectly legal even if it is a bit of a stretch.
10. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by Teancum · 2010-09-23 22:47 · Score: 1
  
  I'm no lawyer, but if a voicemail sender retains copyright on their message, I have no idea how a site like Audioo (which shares embarrassing voicemails with the world) hasn't been sued into oblivion yet.
  Yeah, it sounds like you are no lawyer nor have really studied copyright law. As for why this particular company hasn't been "sued into oblivion", it is a matter of time and legal precedence. The copyright is still retained by the "performer".
  You can retain the recording for legal purposes, just as it is legal to record a radio program... for personal use. That is called personal fair use (even though the RIAA and ASCAP would have you think differently). You just don't have permission to reproduce that recording and send it everywhere without their explicit permission.
  BTW, there are a whole bunch of websites around that do things that are shady or violate the law. How long was Napster on as a website before it was effectively shut down for copyright infringement and "sued into oblivion"? Just because somebody is being bold doesn't mean that it is legal or correct. I'm sure you can find all manner of activity on the internet that has people doing stuff that is blatantly illegal. I would say that the main reason this website is still up and running is in part because they are small time and nobody wants to give them any more attention than they deserve. Just wait until they step on the toes of a U.S. Senator and see how long the site lasts.
11. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by AK+Marc · 2010-09-24 07:21 · Score: 1
  
  You are right in what you say, but you imply that speaking is a performance. I do not agree with that assumption. Someone's conversational words are not a creative work, and copyright wasn't created to protect or encourage conversations, but creative works. If they are reading a poem, a song, or such, then yes, but a rant about lawyers is not a creative work and shouldn't be treated as such.
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
12. Re:Can Zen Magnets sue? by Teancum · 2010-09-25 00:35 · Score: 1
  
  That is a lucid and reasonable argument that you can make in court for a defense in terms of why you think the recording would then be in the public domain instead of being a copyrighted work. Unfortunately that requires a ruling from a judge to confirm that legal hypothesis.
  From the perspective of an ISP or other "common carrier", it is by far and away safer from a legal perspective to respond to a DMCA take-down notice by removing the content than going over this subtle difference. Furthermore, I think the assertion that they thought the speech was copyrighted is a valid defense that the DMCA take-down notice was legitimate (not an illegal take-down notice) even if later it can be proven that the speech was in the public domain. That is a point of dispute only so far as potential damages in a civil lawsuit where the person speaking would fail to receive an award for damages on the basis of copyright infringement.
  I was just trying to point out that it could be considered copyrighted material and from that perspective what BuckyBalls did here, while certainly slimy and from an ethical perspective something stupid to do, is perfectly legal to demand a DMCA take-down notice.
Was just about to buy some bucky balls by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 00:56 · Score: 1, Insightful

I was planning this week to buy some bucky balls for a friend, guess I won't now.
1. Re:Was just about to buy some bucky balls by PhilHibbs · 2010-09-23 01:00 · Score: 1
  
  Don't, they are rubbish. A friend bought me some good ones last year, then I bought some Buckyballs off ThinkGeek and they're shit.
2. Re:Was just about to buy some bucky balls by irving47 · 2010-09-23 01:07 · Score: 1
  
  I'd wait on it. I DO LIKE my buckyballs, but it's funny about the timing. Over the last few days I have noticed many flecks coming off of them. They're starting to chip.
  
  --
  I had a sucky sig.
3. Re:Was just about to buy some bucky balls by tagno25 · 2010-09-23 01:32 · Score: 1
  
  A few of mine are bearings, they are not even magnetic.
Other users have now mirrored it by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 00:57 · Score: 5, Informative

Here's a mirror of the video.
Zen's delay is most likely due to the fact that they're consulting a lawyer to make sure things are done by the book and they're legally in the clear (and don't damage any possibility of suing Buckyballs for committing perjury on the DMCA notice).
This is what they've last said on the matter on reddit:

Edit: Decision is we're going to do a counter-notification, but we're gonna have a lawyer back us up. (Especially since there have been good points about potential $$$ damages for perjuring a false copyright take-down.)
1. Re:Other users have now mirrored it by Narcocide · 2010-09-23 01:19 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  video == hilarious :)
2. Re:Other users have now mirrored it by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 07:45 · Score: 0
  
  > and don't damage any possibility of suing Buckyballs for committing perjury on the DMCA notice
  There was never any possibility to damage. The only part of a DMCA take-down notice which is made under penalty of perjury is the assertion that the person sending the letter is either the person CLAIMING infringement or is authorised to act on their behalf. Note: CLAIMING. The actual claim of infringement is not, and cannot, be made under penalty of perjury. Perjury only applies to statements of fact; legal claims are not facts.
Re:Fucking Magnets, by chichilalescu · 2010-09-23 00:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

the most interesting thing is that they don't actually work, because the force they exert on something is always perpendicular to the direction of motion of that something.

--
new sig
thinkgeek by MickyTheIdiot · 2010-09-23 00:59 · Score: 4, Interesting

I have been a customer of ThinkGeek for a long while... and I hope that they really show where their values are and DROP BuckyBalls as product. I've always believed that they took more notice of this type of stuff and tried to stock items that didn't participate in this type of corporate asshattery. I hope I don't get proved wrong...
1. Re:thinkgeek by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:10 · Score: 0
  
  Thinkgeek may or may not find out about the story here, but if you feel strongly about it, you should probably email your thoughts to them.
  I used to be skeptical about feedback/contact forms on store/company sites, but you'd be surprised by how often a real human will reply and actually do something.
  I've had a couple of really bad purchases (where stuff did not work as advertised). Recently I emailed one of the stores I had bought from and expressed my disappointment in the brand. The store owner apologized, gave me a full refund, and stopped carrying products by that company.
2. Re:thinkgeek by mandark1967 · 2010-09-23 01:25 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Their values? Seriously?
  I purchased two golf-type shirts from them. Both are a bit oversized as I like loose-fitting shirts
  The first one ripped on its own under both arms due to the stitching not being properly done.
  The other? It unbuttons itself. While that may be a useful feature, if my name is Kandi and I'm dancing at "The Gold Club", it's not so useful if I am in a meeting at work.
  
  --
  Sig Follows: "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain
3. Re:thinkgeek by mandark1967 · 2010-09-23 01:29 · Score: 1
  
  Oops. Meant to add that, when I contacted them concerning these two shirts, they said there was nothing they could do. No refund. No replacement.
  
  --
  Sig Follows: "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain
4. Re:thinkgeek by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:32 · Score: 0
  
  I'm sorry, but thinkgeek is just like any other company. Values get in the way of the bottom line.
5. Re:thinkgeek by Chysn · 2010-09-23 01:44 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  I have been a customer of ThinkGeek for a long while... and I hope that they really show where their values are and DROP BuckyBalls as product
  
  You are just so cute, I could eat your right up!
  
  --
  --I'm so big, my sig has its own sig.
  -- See?
6. Re:thinkgeek by Jaysyn · 2010-09-23 01:44 · Score: 1
  
  Thinkgeek may or may not find out about the story here, but if you feel strongly about it, you should probably email your thoughts to them.
  I used to be skeptical about feedback/contact forms on store/company sites, but you'd be surprised by how often a real human will reply and actually do something.
  I just did this. Let's see how they respond.
  
  --
  There is a war going on for your mind.
7. Re:thinkgeek by martas · 2010-09-23 01:51 · Score: 1
  
  send them an angry email: webmonster@thinkgeek.com
  
  --
  weinersmith
8. Re:ThinkGeek by martas · 2010-09-23 01:52 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  again, thinkgeek's general email address is webmonster@thinkgeek.com . make your opinion heard.
  
  --
  weinersmith
9. Re:ThinkGeek by Jaysyn · 2010-09-23 02:02 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  I used the webform, but way ahead of you.
  
  --
  There is a war going on for your mind.
10. Re:thinkgeek by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:19 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  >>>DROP BuckyBalls as product.
  Doubtful. Thinkgeek just filled their warehouse with millions of Buckyball products, in preparation for the Christmas season. They can't just drop Buckyball in an instant.
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
11. Re:thinkgeek by Nerdfest · 2010-09-23 02:47 · Score: 1
  
  I've had nothing but great customer service from ThinkGeek, including a couple of times when I received defective products (which are not really their fault, as they don't actually make what they sell). I would hope they stop selling the BuckyBalls and start selling Zen Balls because of this as well though.
12. Re:ThinkGeek by RealGrouchy · 2010-09-23 05:06 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Plus, I heard of this other company that makes a product that's not only very similar, but also better!
  - RG>
  
  --
  Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
13. Re:thinkgeek by geekoid · 2010-09-23 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  Congratulations! you have been completely suckered by branding towards you imagined niche.
  here:
  http://nobodyscores.loosenutstudio.com/index.php?id=556
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
14. Re:thinkgeek by poity · 2010-09-23 07:02 · Score: 1
  
  I don't see why Thinkgeek would stock up like that. The manufacturer is probably some factory in rural China, Buckyballs is merely an import distributor.
  Lead time from Chinese manufacturer to US distributor is in weeks and months, but lead time from domestic distributor to domestic retailer is days.
  It only makes sense that Buckyball stocks the majority, especially given the small size and premium price.
  
  --
  your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
news. by postermmxvicom · 2010-09-23 01:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

This is news. However, Buckyballs is certainly giving Zen Magnets lots of free advertising by making it newsworthy. I can only assume after watching the video that the people making their PR decisions are just that dense.

--
One last thing: Sometimes I wonder; "Is that someone's signature? Or do they type that at the end of each post?"
1. Re:news. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:39 · Score: 0
  
  Indeed. If you watch the video evidence, Zen's are clearly superior to the Buckyballs. The size tolerance and coating are particularly telling.
2. Re:news. by magus_melchior · 2010-09-23 03:14 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Uh, no. Buckyballs' "inventor", Jake Bronstein, is a fool with a thin skin. Otherwise, he wouldn't call up his competitor with threatening language, nor would he file a frivolous and false DMCA takedown.
  Zen should keep their cool and stick to the facts, and Bronstein will exhaust himself in anger and lawyers.
  
  --
  "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
3. Re:news. by lsllll · 2010-09-23 13:50 · Score: 1
  
  Hell! That is so true, I went to Zen Magnets' site to order some of their magnets just because I wanted to stick it to the "man", but I found out that thousands of Slashdotters had already beat me to it. Guess what? Zen Magnet is out of inventory for EVERYTHING! That includes their $172 package.
  
  --
  Is that a roll of dimes in your pocket or are you happy to see me?
ThinkGeek by Jaysyn · 2010-09-23 01:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

Slashdot's sister company ThinkGeek sells Buckyballs. No, we don't get kickbacks, but we totally should.
Perhaps your sister company should stop selling the products of a known DMCA abuser?

--
There is a war going on for your mind.
Hello Poison Control Hotline? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:06 · Score: 0

Can cause serious problems if swallowed. Do not give to kids under the age of 12, and keep them away from pets. Call poison control if more than 1 magnet is swallowed.
We have a situation here.
1. Re:Hello Poison Control Hotline? by irving47 · 2010-09-23 01:09 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  All rare earth magnets are that way. They are especially concerned about them being swallowed separately or coming apart.... The problem being if they are in different stages of your intestines, they will attract each other and either stay right where they are, blocking flow of blood or other stuff, or maybe even wear right through the walls and make holes. Pretty nasty situation either way.
  
  --
  I had a sucky sig.
2. Re:Hello Poison Control Hotline? by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · 2010-09-23 01:23 · Score: 1
  
  Do not taunt buckyball.
  
  --
  
  Technoli
3. Re:Hello Poison Control Hotline? by RealGrouchy · 2010-09-23 05:10 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  If you've accidentally swallowed one (or more) and you're worried they're still in your system, it's no big deal. Just go to a surgeon and get an MRI. He'll have them out in no time.
  - RG>
  
  --
  Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
4. Re:Hello Poison Control Hotline? by Teancum · 2010-09-23 05:14 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  It makes you wonder a bit about a cow magnet where you deliberately feed a magnet to livestock.
  This is used because many cows are so stupid that they will eat part of a barbed wire fence and other junk while grazing. Generally you don't feed the cows multiple magnets, and they stay in the rumen of the cow... a rather strange organ that is unique to cattle and other ruminants. Still, it is interesting that sometimes feeding magnets to creatures can be beneficial as well.
It has gotten even uglier . . . by pariahdecss · 2010-09-23 01:10 · Score: 3, Funny

Apparently now the makers of Ben Wa Balls ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Wa_balls/ ) have gotten wind of this fracas and have filed their own injunction
1. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by macraig · 2010-09-23 01:25 · Score: 1
  
  You do realize that scrunching "en.wikipedia.org/" in front of some random term doesn't make a useful page of that name magically appear on Wikipedia?
2. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by akzeac · 2010-09-23 01:33 · Score: 1
  
  There *does* happen to be a useful page with that name.
3. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:55 · Score: 0
  
  You do realize that scrunching "en.wikipedia.org/" in front of some random term doesn't make a useful page of that name magically appear on Wikipedia?
  You do realize that scrunching "en.wikipedia.org/" in front of the term wasn't the problem, right? If you had paid attention, you would have seen that the "Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name" page had a title of "Ben Wa balls/". Notice the trailing slash? Apparently wikipedia doesn't like that trailing slash for some reason. Strip it off and you get page that pariahdecss intended to link to. Should he have tested his link before submitting? Yes. Should you have been less of an ass about it? Definitely.
4. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by macraig · 2010-09-23 01:58 · Score: 1
  
  Had you actually clicked on the URL in his comment, you'd have recognized my point (it leads to a placeholder page because of the spurious trailing SLASH-with-no-dot).
5. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:14 · Score: 0
  
  Remove the trailing / and you get a legitimate article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Wa_balls
6. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:22 · Score: 1
  
  >>>scrunching "en.wikipedia.org/" in front of some random term doesn't make a useful page
  Actually it does. The only error grandparent poster made was putting an extra "/" at the end. Remove that and his link works perfectly. By the way I've been told Sybians are much more effective than Ben Wa Balls
  
  --
  "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
7. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:45 · Score: 0
  
  Removing the trailing slash makes it appear.
8. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:53 · Score: 0
  
  remove the trailing / and try again...
9. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 03:55 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, that seems to be about how it works more often than not... ok, nothing magically appears but it was there already and you just find it.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
10. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by akzeac · 2010-09-23 05:20 · Score: 1
  
  (it leads to a placeholder page because of the spurious trailing SLASH-with-no-dot).
  What does it have to do with scrunching "en.wikipedia.org/" in front of some random term? The fact that it works without the slash proves that the expression was anything but random.
11. Re:It has gotten even uglier . . . by geekoid · 2010-09-23 05:39 · Score: 1
  
  you laugh, but they do go after anyone who mentions there product name when comparing to other anal beads.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Reddit had it yesterday. by tpotus · 2010-09-23 01:10 · Score: 0

http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/dhi9b/zen_magnets_buckyballs_also_the_buckyballs_guy_is/
1. Re:Reddit had it yesterday. by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:19 · Score: 0
  
  Well good for them, not everyone here reads Reddit.
2. Re:Reddit had it yesterday. by Coopjust · 2010-09-23 01:21 · Score: 1
  
  The summary here links to reddit. And not every Slashdot user visits reddit regularly.
I had some on my kids' Christmas lists... no more by StuartHankins · 2010-09-23 01:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

I will buy the Zen magnets instead. Screw the Buckyballs people for being such dicks.
"the Internet routes around..." well, does it? by Tom · 2010-09-23 01:12 · Score: 2

So, where are the mirrors? Who has copies of the video?
Haven't we always thought that the Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it? Well, where is the backup route?
Hm, maybe all this centralized infrastructure in a few big providers does have some drawbacks after all...

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
1. Re:"the Internet routes around..." well, does it? by Coopjust · 2010-09-23 01:18 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  It's been mirrored by other people on Youtube.
2. Re:"the Internet routes around..." well, does it? by Allnighte · 2010-09-23 01:49 · Score: 1
  
  and now that video's source is getting slashdotted. it's basically loading the video at about .5KB/s for me. any more mirrors? i'm not seeing any with a quick search.
Service provider is immune; complainer is not by tepples · 2010-09-23 01:14 · Score: 4, Informative

Does the DMCA offer any immunity to civil lawsuits for damages resulting from a [false/abusive] DMCA takedown notice?
Per Title 17, United States Code, section 512, the service provider (e.g. YouTube) is immune to liability for the required two-week downtime after receipt of the counter-notification (512(g)(1)). But the complaining copyright owner is not immune (Lenz v. Universal).
DMCA Counter-Claim or not... by mdm-adph · 2010-09-23 01:16 · Score: 1

...isn't there a period wherein Youtube's allowed to decided whether to put the content back up or not?

--
It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
1. Re:DMCA Counter-Claim or not... by silas_moeckel · 2010-09-23 01:28 · Score: 1
  
  There is a period for processing and processing can take a significant amount of time. As long as you have an internally documented procedure and follow it you can take a pretty significant amount of time to in doing so. From the link it looks like they still have not sent in the counter claim to get that process started.
  
  --
  No sir I dont like it.
Re:MOD PARENT DOWN by Pojut · 2010-09-23 01:17 · Score: 0, Offtopic

My opinion: back of the hand. Respect it.

--
Living With a Nerd
Re:big bucks by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:21 · Score: 2, Funny

Big Bucks No Whammies!!
Re:I had some on my kids' Christmas lists... no mo by seebs · 2010-09-23 01:23 · Score: 1

Yeah, now I'm sorta sad that I bought a bunch of Buckyballs, but I'll happily switch brands for my next batch.

--
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
the whole thing smells by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:26 · Score: 1, Interesting

does Zen or Bucky have their _own_ smelting and chrome plating facilities ? just for magnets ? are they mining the ore ?
lol a pair of middlemen resellers squabbling about who has the best dealer
1. Re:the whole thing smells by longhairedgnome · 2010-09-23 01:34 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, that is kinda funny.
  
  --
  GENERATION O98346: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and remove a random number from the generation. T
2. Re:the whole thing smells by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 04:54 · Score: 1
  
  You can dicker with your suppliers about quality. I bought a $300 watch with an ETA 6497 movement and custom dials and sapphire window/backplate. There's only 70 made (was gonna be 100). The guy building it has delayed shipment because the dials were not up to his quality standards. Yes, he sent a 2mm wide piece of metal that weighs 1/10 of a gram back to the manufacturer and said "make this part again, because you did a shitty job of it the first time."
  It has to be perfect. You have to look at it, feel it, examine it, and not go, "Oh, huh? ... that's odd..." If he doesn't get something that's made to his standards, he sends it back and informs his customers what, why, how, and when. What happened (shitty dial), why (it works, but it's not up to quality standards), how (shipped back to manufacturer and told them to do it right), when (3 week delay). End of discussion.
  His suppliers make plenty of stuff, and plenty of custom-machined stuff. Watch cases, custom-cut sapphire windows, watch straps made from exotic materials, custom printed exposed parts (faceplates etc), hands and even screws (this run uses blued hands and screws). It's quite possible to demand a thicker or better controlled chrome plating (better electrolyte solution, etc); better manufacturing tolerance (part selection); or even different finishing process on roughly off-the-shelf parts (watch cases, screws, and hands are standard parts; blued hands are further processed, and watch cases milled out of better steel are better of course).
  Why would small, round magnets coated with anti-corrosive metallic or polymer coating be any different? Metallic and magnetic metallic bearings are engineering components; whoever produces these has got to be ready to take custom orders and meet quality, material, and process demands.
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
Obvious way to prove damages by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:28 · Score: 1

Obvious way to prove damages: every dollar the Buckyballs company made should have gone to ZenMagnets. That is the damages. After all,
a) this is what the *AA use to work out losses
b) in a free market, the rational choice would be the superior product, therefore any sales must be from unfair manipulation and the DMCA takedown enabled it.
1. Re:Obvious way to prove damages by Narcocide · 2010-09-23 01:32 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I think actually the *AA takes your a) and multiplies that number by about 600 then uses the result to determine damages.
Toys by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

While some people argue over toys, there is a real life macro economic crisis brewing over some of the metals used in these toys..and in advanced tech useful products, the important stuff we all use. China is blocking the transfer of rare earth metals to Japan in a dispute over ocean territory and fishing rights, etc. More of a big dick contest with japan, and therefore the rest of the world, and I tell you, China will win that contest. At this minute, they are denying it is happening, but that seems to be spin. They made their point that even the threat of blocking these materials would cause severe economic harm to their competitors.
Re:Fucking Magnets, by AndrewNeo · 2010-09-23 01:29 · Score: 1

I don't wanna talk to a scientist!
Knowingly? by JSBiff · 2010-09-23 01:31 · Score: 3, Interesting

I always love when they through in language like "knowingly", because, I'm no lawyer, but isn't it pretty hard to prove that someone 'knowingly' misrepresented. If they just say, "We didn't know", how do you counter that? The only way I can think of is if you happen to get lucky and find an email or other record of a private conversation between company employees where they essentially admit it.
Also, to what extent can lawyers "shield" their clients? I.e. if a Client goes to their lawyer, and the lawyer tells them "yeah, that's infringing", even though it isn't, does the law hold the lawyer liable? I mean, if you acted on advice of your attorney, can you claim you didn't know you were making a misrepresentation (after all, your lawyer told you so, it's just your lawyer was wrong)? Is there anything to stop corrupt little deals where lawyers tell their clients what they want to hear, so that the client can act on advice of their attorney, and because the attorney doesn't face any penalties, it's all sort of 'legal'?
1. Re:Knowingly? by smellsofbikes · 2010-09-23 03:59 · Score: 1
  
  I'm not a lawyer. However, "knowingly" is usually done through discovery -- going through email, like you say -- but can be shown by demonstrating that a "reasonable person" would not have behaved that way.
  And as for lawyers shielding their clients, in the Hewlett Packard pretexting scandal, CEO Patricia Dunn repeatedly asked her lawyers, in writing, if the methods involved in finding the leak were legal, and they repeatedly assured her, in writing, that they were. Despite that, several jurisdictions filed criminal charges and arrest warrants against her, although the charges were eventually dismissed.
  
  --
  Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
2. Re:Knowingly? by JSBiff · 2010-09-23 05:02 · Score: 1
  
  "Despite that, several jurisdictions filed criminal charges and arrest warrants against her, although the charges were eventually dismissed."
  Prosecutors filing charges doesn't really mean anything, though. In the end what matters is whether the courts accept that as a valid defense [I'm not sure if this would be a judge issue (finding of law), or a jury issue (finding of fact), but my hunch is that it would be the former - that a judge would make the legal ruling as to whether getting advice from an attorney protects you from the 'knowingly' clause].
  There's got to be a case somewhere in American history (or multiple cases) that dealt exactly with this issue - I can't believe no-one ever tried to hide behind their lawyers on an issue where 'knowingly' is part of the legal test for penalty).
3. Re:Knowingly? by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 05:42 · Score: 0
  
  Also, to what extent can lawyers "shield" their clients? I.e. if a Client goes to their lawyer, and the lawyer tells them "yeah, that's infringing", even though it isn't, does the law hold the lawyer liable? I mean, if you acted on advice of your attorney, can you claim you didn't know you were making a misrepresentation (after all, your lawyer told you so, it's just your lawyer was wrong)?
  Yes and no. Lawyers represent and act on behalf of their clients. But if a lawyer gives you bad advice, and you act on that bad advice thereby committing a crime, you are still held responsible for your actions, not the lawyer. BUT:
  1. You can sue your lawyer for malpractice.
  2. The bar association may reprimand or disbar the lawyer.
  3. Since you had a good-faith belief from a licensed lawyer that your conduct was legal, most judges will take that into account and show you some leniency.
  Similarly, if your accountant gives you bad tax advice and makes mistakes when filing your taxes, it's you on the hook for the fines & tax penalties, not the accountant. But then you can sue your accountant.
4. Re:Knowingly? by dasdrewid · 2010-09-23 06:06 · Score: 1
  
  Is there anything to stop corrupt little deals where lawyers tell their clients what they want to hear, so that the client can act on advice of their attorney, and because the attorney doesn't face any penalties, it's all sort of 'legal'?
  No.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Yoo#Legal_opinions
  Well, yes, but you have to prove to another set of attorneys that the original attorney was doing something unethical, but you can't introduce any communications between the attorney and client as evidence and they're very good about throwing in words like "in my opinion" so it's not unethical, it's just "poorly informed". So, no.
  As a side note, does anyone else having problems copy/pasting in Slashdot boxes while using Chrome, or is my computer just f*ed?
  
  --
  No trespassing. Violators will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
5. Re:Knowingly? by AK+Marc · 2010-09-24 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  but you can't introduce any communications between the attorney and client as evidence
  
  Sure you can. That's "privileged" and either side can violate that privilege if they like to. For the lawyer, that can lead to a disbarment hearing after they do and they can't be compelled to testify. But the client in that situation certainly can pull in whatever they want. And lawyers frequently do violate the privileged communications rules, but only do so voluntarily and aren't held legally liable if they do not. There is nothing coded in law that prevents anyone from sharing, just something coded in law that allows the protection to exist, if both sides agree to it.
  
  It's much like marriage. You can't compel a person to testify against their spouse, but if they want to of their own free will, then they are entitled to testify if they wish. You are confusing what they can do with what they must do.
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
Speaking from a Recent BuckyBalls Customer by kipin · 2010-09-23 01:33 · Score: 4, Interesting

I recently purchased 4 sets of BuckyBalls when they were recently on woot. I'm pretty pissed that I did now and want to show my support to Zen Magnets and buy a set of theirs. They seem to have much better quality from everything I have read and seen, and can attest to BuckyBalls "flakes" now coming off in my hand after using the magnets for about 2 weeks.

From what I have heard, this company BuckyBalls made about $500,000 in sales from the woot sale (woot actually bought more from BuckyBalls on the day of the sale because demand was so strong), and $250,000 in sales on the day Google changed its logo to honor the Buckyball. Seems they may have grown too big for their britches and feel a sense of entitlement now.

--
If I can not smoke in heaven, then I shall not go. -- Mark Twain
1. Re:Speaking from a Recent BuckyBalls Customer by Coopjust · 2010-09-23 01:35 · Score: 1
  
  The origin of the name Buckyballs is not the toy.
  
  Google was honoring Fullerene, not the toy, although Buckyballs put out a press release saying it massively boosted their sales as a side effect.
2. Re:Speaking from a Recent BuckyBalls Customer by kipin · 2010-09-23 01:43 · Score: 1
  
  I know that, google recently changed their logo which included a rotating buckyball. When you clicked on the logo, it performed a google search for "buckyball" which happened to place the BuckyBalls website very close to the top giving them a lot of exposure and sales.
  
  --
  If I can not smoke in heaven, then I shall not go. -- Mark Twain
3. Re:Speaking from a Recent BuckyBalls Customer by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:23 · Score: 0
  
  Imagine how I felt when I bought an X10 camera. Before the popup ad era. I feel your pain :)
4. Re:Speaking from a Recent BuckyBalls Customer by naoursla · 2010-09-23 07:28 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, that really cut into my own online sales of real Buckminsterfullerines that I collect from my fireplace.
5. Re:Speaking from a Recent BuckyBalls Customer by pwnies · 2010-09-23 13:37 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Playing the devil's advocate here, the flaking that you're experiencing will happen with all Neodymium Iron Boron magnets with nickel platting. The underlying metals are highly brittle, which means that continuous clacking together will eventually break off small pieces of the NdFeB under the nickel coating. This metal sand will no longer support the shape of the original coating, leading to warping, weakening, and eventually flaking of the nickel coating. The only thing that really determines the endurance is the depth of the coating, and Zen makes no claims that the depth of their coating is better (only that it's more shiny and possibly more uniform).
  As a disclaimer, I have not owned either zen or buckyball's magnets (although it's very possible that I've gotten magnets from the same supplier). I'm just a fan of the NdFeB magnets and have a moderate-large amount of experience with them.
Voicemail is immaterial by Controlio · 2010-09-23 01:35 · Score: 1

You can always repost a voicemail. US law only mandates that both parties are aware that the content of the phone call is being recorded. Leaving a voicemail implies knowledge that your voice is being recorded, thus there is no issue there. The picture can be more complicated as far as copyright, as just because it's available online doesn't make it fair game.
The more important issue is the fact that the DMCA is unbelievably flawed, and this points out a perfect case. If I use the DMCA to demand a video be removed and you don't do so in a timely manner, I sue you. If I use the DMCA to demand the video be re-posted and you don't do so in a timely manner, I sue you. However there is no severe penalty for misuse of the DMCA. Thus the reason for all the automated DMCA takedown notices - there's no consequences if you get a few wrong. The only ones getting unconditionally screwed in this case are the hosting sites, which is absurd.
For the love of your particular deity, will someone hold the companies who abuse our laws responsible for something?
1. Re:Voicemail is immaterial by Coopjust · 2010-09-23 01:36 · Score: 1
  
  A DMCA notice has to include a statement that, under penalty of law, the person filing it knows they have a copyright being infringed and their statements are accurate.
  
  As you might imagine, the difficulty is proving that in court.
2. Re:Voicemail is immaterial by JSBiff · 2010-09-23 02:29 · Score: 1
  
  "For the love of your particular deity, will someone hold the companies who abuse our laws responsible for something?"
  Wouldn't it make more sense to hold the people accountable who pass (and don't modify/repeal) such bad laws, e.g. Congress and the President (who has to sign legislation into law)?
  Unfortunately, it's seems kind of difficult to get most people to care about things like copyright and patent law - in part because there's so many issues of even more consequence out there that demand the public's attention - wars, disasters, budget deficits, unemployement, health care, education, etc.
  The real problem is we have such bad an inneffective government, and have for so long, that our country has become *massively* screwed up - copyright and patent abuse are the least severe symptoms of that problem - although it's certainly true that for some individuals and companies, they are much more severe than for the general public.
Unfair use of DMCA that becomes free advertising by voss · 2010-09-23 01:35 · Score: 1

They are using DMCA because they know they cant patent spherical magnets.
I didnt even know about Zen Magnets until buckyballs filed their DMCA notice.
Maybe it should be called a Definitely Massive Competitor Ad
After watching the response... by definate · 2010-09-23 01:38 · Score: 4, Insightful

LOL, After watching the response Zen Magnets vs Buckyballs Comparison Video, Zen Magnets seems far superior to BuckyBalls.
Not because of product quality, though that seems significantly superior, but because they seem to be way more in tune with the nerd culture. Buckyballs should be ashamed of themselves for issuing a DMCA takedown notice. No geek/nerd would stoop so low.
In comparison, Zen Magnets seems to be kicking it nerdcore, which is how I roll.
ThinkGeek, you need to drop Buckyballs and pick up Zen Magnets. You gotta protect your nerd points, and getting behind a DMCA abuser, and a company which doesn't seem to understand the geek culture, is not cool. Drop Buckyballs, pick up Zen Magnets!

--
This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
1. Re:After watching the response... by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 05:13 · Score: 1
  
  The web site is better:
  
  Very often, you might feel that Zen magnets and Buckyballs are the same. They are also round, the same high magnetic. They are good toy and educational toy, they can enhance your imagination and creativity. They are good toy to ease the pressure. All these are so you can easily confuse them.
  Then let me tell you about their different. Which is better Zen magnets or Buckyballs. Zen magnets and Buckyballs are a kind of magnetic toy is composed of 216 individual high-energy rare earth magnets. But Zen Magnets come with 6 spares, BuckyBalls come with none. In the volume area Zen Magnets vs Buckyballs both are same diameter size and their spheres are 5mm. Zen Magnets are all the same size, BuckyBalls vary differently - which makes them not sit quite right. And also Zen Magnets are stronger. These are all Zen magnets and Buckyballs differents. I think you have a very clear sense now.
  
  --
  Support my political activism on Patreon.
Publicly Available by whisper_jeff · 2010-09-23 01:40 · Score: 1, Insightful

...and some images of himself, which are low-resolution and publicly available online.
Just because it's low resolution and just because it's available online does not necessarily mean you have the legal right to use an image.
1. Re:Publicly Available by interval1066 · 2010-09-23 03:14 · Score: 1
  
  "Just because it's low resolution and just because it's available online does not necessarily mean you have the legal right to use an image."
  The problem, however, is, as its been since the dawn of the information age, is the nature of use.You have a picture of Katy Perry that you took on your web page. You are clearly the license holder. The image is not behind a firewall, a pay gate, a password, or even an obscured url. Its a clearly available and easily linked to location. I, on my web page, have written an article in my blog about your fabulous photo. Is that infringement? Probably not. I also include a link to your image. Is that infringement? Rather than a clickable link I instead tag to it (include the image on my page using an img tag). No media has actually been taken from you, the image simply appears on my web page through the magic of technology. Going even further, I actually right-click on your image and create a copy of it, then display it on my blog, giving you your proper credit for the photo. Remember, your image is not protected in any way. I've stolen nothing physical from you, simply copied something you've created like a mimeograph machine. Its just not that simple to say "You have no right to this." Its a little like pointing in thin air and saying "This is mine, you may not breathe this air." then pointing to another spot a yard away and saying "Breathe in all the air you want over here."
  
  --
  Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
2. Re:Publicly Available by whisper_jeff · 2010-09-23 03:22 · Score: 1
  
  Just because you disagree with how copyright law works does not change how copyright law, in fact, works.
  
  Remember, your image is not protected in any way. I've stolen nothing physical from you...
  You've (potentially) stolen something from me. You may disagree with that being important but, as copyright law is currently written, that is against the law.
  
  It may be fair use, in which case I'd doubtfully be able to take action. And, for it to count as fair use there's four criteria that are looked at. If you don't know those four criteria or are unsure if your use falls within those criteria, I'm sure an IP lawyer would be happy to help you out.
  
  In the end, however, don't think that the way you think things should work is, in fact, the way things work. Just because you think copyright law should work one way does not mean it does work that way. Assuming that it does might land you in a copyright battle that you will lose.
3. Re:Publicly Available by geekoid · 2010-09-23 03:55 · Score: 1
  
  Depends on how you are using it. Using it as a factual comparison is perfectly fine. Risky because if you are wrong you open yourself to litigation for being wrong.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
4. Re:Publicly Available by interval1066 · 2010-09-23 04:30 · Score: 1
  
  Here's the question: At WHAT POINT did the infringement occur? Just answer that.
  
  --
  Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
5. Re:Publicly Available by interval1066 · 2010-09-23 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  I should add that I've disagreed with nothing, you're putting words in my mouth. I merely described a scenario. Since the law is so perfectly clear it should be very easy for you to answer the question.
  
  --
  Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
mynut won? most ontopical comment ever by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 01:42 · Score: 0

google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=bush%2Bcheney%2Bwolfowitz%2Brumsfeld%2Bwmd%2Boil%2Bblair%2Bobama%2Bweather%2Bauthors
This why I hate the iPad by tekrat · 2010-09-23 01:43 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Because it "trains" us to be passive consumers of media on the internet.
As a result, we'll see more and more, that the internet is going to be controlled by a few big companies, and it will be become TV all over again, where THEY decide what we get to watch, what we get to read, and everything else will be censored, unaccessible, and when "pirates" even try to post their own material (remember when "pirate" radio was about broadcasting? Amazing how big media uses that word for *everything*...), they will be taken down, usually with cops bursting through their door to confiscate their illegal servers.
You think I'm crazy, but trust me, in 20 years, this won't seem so far fetched.

--
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Damnit by Myopic · 2010-09-23 01:46 · Score: 1

Damn, last month I bought Bucky Balls on Woot. Not only are they still, apparently, in the mail, but now I'm coveting some Zen Magnets. Great advertising, Zen! You might make yourself a sale, if these damn Bucky Balls never show up.
And to think... by Majestix · 2010-09-23 02:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

...I was going to buy some of the Buckyballs product when they arrived at the local game store next to my job. After this I think i'll give my business to the Zen folks.
K

--
--- I was far from home, and the spell of the Eastern sea was upon me. -Lovecraft-
1. Re:And to think... by interval1066 · 2010-09-23 03:16 · Score: 1
  
  ...I was going to buy some of the Buckyballs product when they arrived at the local game store next to my job. After this I think i'll give my business to the Zen folks.
  Bucky or Zen, they are pretty cool little desk toys, aren't they?
  
  --
  Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Streisand effect by LordKronos · 2010-09-23 02:00 · Score: 5, Informative

Hey Buckyballs...ever hear about the Streisand effect? Someone here in the office has a set of buckyballs and I thought they were pretty cool. I was thinking about picking up a set sometime. I've never heard of Zen Magnets before today. Now that I watched the video you had taken down, I'm thinking maybe Zen Magnets would be the better purchase. Thanks for helping me open my eyes to your competition.
Definitely a bad PR move.
1. Re:Streisand effect by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:52 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Absolutely. I have been thinking of getting a set of buckyballs myself and never heard of zen magnets before today. Aside from the zen magnets being cheaper (albeit their website is poorly designed), I have absolutely no desire to give buckyballs any business given their behavior. With this particular product the market is small enough where I have the option not to support this behavior. Unfortunately with most large market products you don't.
2. Re:Streisand effect by ebuck · 2010-09-23 04:23 · Score: 1
  
  The Streisand effect is just an observation, not a guarantee. I'm sure there is a lot of information wrongfully suppressed because they can't jockey their way into a top alternative news story. This current DMCA take down notice isn't likely to be the only wrongfully issued one today.
Re:MOD PARENT DOWN by Runaway1956 · 2010-09-23 02:04 · Score: 0, Offtopic

My opinion, this AC is the dirt in the douche bottle that made the lady just throw the bottle away and do without the douche.

--
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Repeatability of Science by Myopic · 2010-09-23 02:06 · Score: 3, Interesting

In the interest of peer-reviewed science, I was inspired to test my coworker's Bucky Balls using the Rigid Stick Test. When we made the rigid stick, it was much straighter than the one shown in the video. Then, when we pushed it over a ledge, it stood up to 27 balls. The video showed 24 for Bucky Balls and 25 for Zen Magnets, so I would say that the test would need repetition and graphing, like they did for the ball diameters.
Still, I loved the video and I thought it was wonderful tongue-in-cheek advertising. It makes me want some Zen Magnets.
1. Re:Repeatability of Science by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 03:57 · Score: 0
  
  In the video, they said the buckyballs shown had a more consistent diameter than the last set they tested, so buckyballs either may have wide variability in their product or may be continually improving. Either way, that voicemail left by the buckyball maker was a dick move (and as someone planning on starting their own business, I have no desire to support sue-happy businesses).
2. Re:Repeatability of Science by Myopic · 2010-09-23 05:56 · Score: 1
  
  "Dick move" -- totally agreed. That's a serious dick move, even more so considering the specific circumstances, such as that Bucky is a much larger company, and the question at hand is a matter of facts, not blind assertions. Very, very dick move. You can even hear it in his voice -- a total dick.
Re:Magnets and Renewable Energy! by ObsessiveMathsFreak · 2010-09-23 02:08 · Score: 1

Sounds to me like they're contentious people who can't bring themselves to write HTML improperly. .... Then again they are engaged in a bout of negative advertising.

--
May the Maths Be with you!
Re:I had some on my kids' Christmas lists... no mo by s2jcpete · 2010-09-23 02:12 · Score: 1

I hope your kids aren't young. Small and very powerful magnets can cause havoc in the intestines if swallowed.
Re:Fucking Magnets, by vonart · 2010-09-23 02:14 · Score: 1

Well, you should want to! They're interesting... all sciency and stuff.
~ Pop

--
The American Dream has too much grinding and the leveling makes no sense. -GameboyRMH (1153867)
Re:big bucks by Pikoro · 2010-09-23 02:14 · Score: 2, Funny

ready annnnnnnd.... STOP!

--
"Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
Re:big bucks by EllisDees · 2010-09-23 02:20 · Score: 2, Funny

$5000 and a spin!!

--
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
Re:I had some on my kids' Christmas lists... no mo by StuartHankins · 2010-09-23 02:23 · Score: 1

That's a good point for others to see. In my case they're older children. Thanks.
Criminal rather than civil? by wonkavader · 2010-09-23 02:24 · Score: 1

But isn't perjury a criminal beef rather than a civil one? Can you sue someone for perjury?
I don't know. Please tell me.
If you're expecting law enforcement to give a crap about a DMCA takedown perjury case with one fairly small guy against a really small guy, I think you shouldn't hold your breath. Prosecutors and judges won't understand why it should be important and wont want to waste time on it.
1. Re:Criminal rather than civil? by inerlogic · 2010-09-23 08:12 · Score: 1
  
  when a counter-notice is filed, the one filing the counter-notice must file a case in the court, and the court decides the copyright issue, if you swear to the court that your statements are true, and they turn out to be false, THE COURT charges you with perjury...
2. Re:Criminal rather than civil? by wonkavader · 2010-09-29 08:27 · Score: 1
  
  So a judge makes the call, not a prosecutor?
Re:Magnets and Renewable Energy! by commodore64_love · 2010-09-23 02:27 · Score: 0, Flamebait

I disagree. Renewable energy == doubleplusgood
And telling people to use Firefox/Chrome because IE5,6,7,8 rarely display pages correctly is not self-righteous. It's +1 Informative (also factual).
As for not writing HTML correctly? False. It's IE that doesn't *interpret* HTML correctly that is plusungood.

--
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Online store out of stock by PGillingwater · 2010-09-23 02:29 · Score: 1

I was all ready to buy, but their online store claims to be out of stock.

--
Paul Gillingwater
MBA, CISSP, CISM
1. Re:Online store out of stock by karstdiver · 2010-09-23 02:36 · Score: 1
  
  Off topic but- Me too. I was ready to buy...
2. Re:Online store out of stock by PGillingwater · 2010-09-23 02:41 · Score: 1
  
  Perhaps this is a type of Slashdot effect? People who want to support them have overwhelmed their sales capability...
  
  --
  Paul Gillingwater
  MBA, CISSP, CISM
Sister company by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:34 · Score: 0

Thinkgeek is slashdot's sister company... so tell me slashdot, is she hot?
Re:Fucking Magnets, by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 02:39 · Score: 0

it's a kind of magic, in fact i've developed a machine that harnesses magnets and the earth's gravity to produce free unlimited energy.
Out of Stock by prograde · 2010-09-23 03:06 · Score: 1

I find it interesting that Zen Magnets are currently out of stock. I'm sure that it's easier to keep production quality high when dealing with smaller production runs, so maybe BuckyBalls' QC is slipping as they try to keep up with their larger market share?
1. Re:Out of Stock by Coopjust · 2010-09-23 03:34 · Score: 1
  
  Their twitter feed is saying to expect a restock this weekend.
Re:Fucking Magnets, by AndrewNeo · 2010-09-23 03:07 · Score: 1

Y'all M*f*r's lying, and getting me pissed.
can still get good blenders by Chirs · 2010-09-23 03:14 · Score: 1

If you want a good blender, go to a restaurant supply place, not a department store. My Waring is built like a tank, with a solid metal base and a big toggle switch for the two speeds.
What about energy/supply efficiency? by swb · 2010-09-23 03:17 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm pretty sure I've read that buying a new refrigerator every N years pays for itself in energy efficiency, which leads me to question whether it's even a good idea to keep an appliance for 20+ years. Advances in materials, components and engineering can make appliances that use less power, water, refrigerant, etc.
We replaced a 10 year old dishwasher a few years ago and I was pretty amazed at how well it works. It has a water cleanliness sensor that monitors wash water for particulates and it has a noticably shorter wash cycle when the dishes aren't very dirty, thus saving water, electricity and natural gas (hot water input).
sometimes cheap crap is better by cwgmpls · 2010-09-23 03:17 · Score: 1

My parents had an all-steel window fan, that lasted the entire 20 years of me growing up. Buying a similar window fan today, if you can find one, would easily cost $60 to $100. On the other hand, I can buy an all-plastic fan at the local discount store for $10.
Even if I have to replace my fan every 2 years, the $10 fan is the same cost of ownership as buying a $100 fan that lasts 20 years. Meanwhile, the plastic fan is easier to carry around, causes less injury, quieter, and uses less electricity. Plus, it is so cheap, you can often pick up a discarded $10 fan for free at the end of the season.
The plastic fan has many advantages, and at a lower cost of initial purchase, is affordable to more people. That is why cheap crap often wins out over expensive, high-quality stuff.
1. Re:sometimes cheap crap is better by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 04:38 · Score: 1
  
  It’s not just an expected “replace every 10,000 miles or 2 years” sort of expense. It’s an insurance policy against the whoops moment that occurs when you’ve just knocked the fan off the window sill and now have to buy a new one because it was cheap crap... and the one you just broke was 2 days old, not 2 years.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
maude pair rent oop! by Thud457 · 2010-09-23 03:35 · Score: 1

Please pull together some links and create a submission on this topic. It will effect /.'ers in a myriad of ways, we need to keep informed on it. kthxbye

--
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Why you shouldn't buy Zen Magnets: by geekoid · 2010-09-23 03:54 · Score: 1

From their site:
"...And may have health benefits."
Don't buy from places the peddle woo. There is no health benefits from magnets until you get to huge levels of power. Nothing in you is magnetic...unless is was added later.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
1. Re:Why you shouldn't buy Zen Magnets: by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  Nothing in you is magnetic...unless is was added later.
  Good thing I’ve slept and shat a few times since last time I ate frog legs...
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frog_diamagnetic_levitation.jpg
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
2. Re:Why you shouldn't buy Zen Magnets: by zenmagnets · 2010-09-23 04:51 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Less stress -- > Better health.
3. Re:Why you shouldn't buy Zen Magnets: by geekoid · 2010-09-23 05:26 · Score: 1
  
  And?
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
4. Re:Why you shouldn't buy Zen Magnets: by geekoid · 2010-09-23 05:28 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe. Do they lower stress?
  Less stress may help in heaing, however is doesn't , in and of itself, heal anything.
  Plus they are clearing hitching the wagon to the 'Magnets cure everything' band wagon.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
5. Re:Why you shouldn't buy Zen Magnets: by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 05:50 · Score: 1
  
  I’m pretty sure I’m not made out of meat, because if so I’d probably be tasty. And magnetic.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
6. Re:Why you shouldn't buy Zen Magnets: by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 05:52 · Score: 0
  
  you silly... it's only FROG meat thats magnetic and everyone knows people meat tastes like pork.
7. Re:Why you shouldn't buy Zen Magnets: by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 05:53 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, I posted that. I’m talking to myself. It’s fun. I do it often. You should try it.
  
  --
  Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Re:Magnets and Renewable Energy! by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 03:58 · Score: 1

You should be grateful that they’re not self-righteous pricks who simply and flatly refuse to serve their carefully-written HTML to browsers that can’t display it properly!

--
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Re:MOD PARENT DOWN by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 04:18 · Score: 0

Well, I succeeded. I got you modded down by flaming you into responding. Eat loss of karma, douche user!
Slashdot effect by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 04:22 · Score: 1

n/t.

--
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Re:MOD PARENT DOWN by clone53421 · 2010-09-23 04:27 · Score: 1

Replying just to taunt you and because I have karma to burn. You’re an idiot.
And I’m not even the guy you were arguing with.

--
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Re:MOD PARENT DOWN by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 04:38 · Score: 0

Moderators, please mod parent down. He basically wants to be modded down. Amen.
More evidence that the DMCA should be done away... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 04:48 · Score: 0

More evidence that the DMCA should be done away with.
LOIC? by evanism · 2010-09-23 05:01 · Score: 1

So, who can I fire my low orbit ion cannon at?

--
Just bought a new quantum computer, but I'm uncertain how it works.
False DMCAs by jonfr · 2010-09-23 05:02 · Score: 1

False DMCAs are subject to lawsuit (can be). Far as I can tell that Buckyballs has just done that with there DMCA notice on youtube.
I guess somebody might be hearing from some lawyers soon in regarding this DMCA takedown notice, and then I don't mean Zen Magnets.
Re:Magnets and Renewable Energy! by bluefoxlucid · 2010-09-23 05:09 · Score: 1

I don't know if you'd call it "negative" advertising. From what I understand here, they did some sort of comparison about quality. Presenting facts is fine: if your competitor is not as good, then fine. They highlight that their quality is higher and say why. Now, if your competitor calls you to bitch; throws a chair at you; makes threats; and then makes improper use of the legal process; then what are you to do? ... wave your hand, point at them, then whistle and walk away. Why not?
Negative advertising occurs when you start pointing out every little thing your competitors do wrong, and maybe roll in some irrelevant flaming while you're at it. If you stop there, that's negative advertising: Buy my stuff because his stuff sucks. Does your stuff not suck? No comment? Well shit, why SHOULD I buy your stuff?
I have no problem with people highlighting either why their products and services are better (by highlighting their competitors' flaws, if relevant) or highlighting their competitor's bad behavior. I don't want to do business with a corporation that behaves like the RIAA, because holy shit this is like having a lion wandering loose on our campus. Do they actually have quality of work and clients' best interests in mind? Or do they just want a pat on the back and a sack of money and that's good enough, our problem if we don't figure out that their work is shitty? Worse, will they leverage anything they can against us in a way that feels strangely like extortion when the law allows them to play dirty games?
On the other hand, given price versus quality versus purpose, the improved quality may not matter. I'm sure I could make a better product than Zen Magnets; but would it really matter? Are they down to 200nm tolerance, and does 195nm really make a difference if I pull out a competing product with 5nm tolerance? I seriously doubt it. But if we're talking millimeter-scale with a toy like this, 0.5mm diameter differences would probably bug me; I've used both 0.5mm and 0.7mm (and 1.0mm!) pencil graphite, and I prefer 0.5mm to 0.7mm. 0.2mm is perceptible; tolerances around 0.1mm or 0.05mm would make a much better toy than 0.2mm or 0.5mm, especially when you start piling little metal balls up into sheets and structures.

--
Support my political activism on Patreon.
ZM has a point, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 05:23 · Score: 0

The Zen Magnets guy would have made a much better point if he hadn't been such a douchebag in the video.
Re:Magnets and Renewable Energy! by GameboyRMH · 2010-09-23 05:33 · Score: 1

And you sound like an anti-environmentalist IE fanboy with no HTML experience.
Yay Zen Magnets for running their server on renewable power and pissing off IE fanboys!

--
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Don't sue -- beat 'em in sales! by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 05:38 · Score: 0

while my initial reaction, too, was "sue the bastards", why not just direct our nerd dollars toward ZenMagnets?
I emailed thinkGeek through their website:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/brain/custserv/gethelp.cgi
Here is my email to thinkGeek:
"[homer]Hello NASA, how come I can't get no tang?! Errr, I mean how come I can't get no Zen Magnets on your website? It's been 4.5 hours since the BuckyBalls / ZenMagnets DMCA takedown notice debacle hit /. -- why no Zen yet? :-)
Seriously, if you've not yet watched the video linked below, you should. The idiocy and the snot-nosed sense of entitlement demonstrated by the takedown-notice-issuing CEO of Buckyballs is as appalling as his actions. DMCA abuse has no place in the nerd community (or anywhere for that matter). Let the nerds decide who they want to support -- and what better website through which to do that than thinkGeek? Thank you for your attention to this matter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Tka4NUmUo " /emailToThinkGeek
REMEMBER: the Zen guy asked that people not bombard the buckyball CEO with hate mail. Abiding by his request would allow a small company (run by a true nerd, no less) to fluorish by raking in our nerd-earned dollars, all the while doing it with class, honesty and (what appears to be) a superior product.
FWIW, I have nothing to do Zen or Buckball, nor do I own either of their products. I'm just beyond all friggin belief disgusted with the conduct of this Jake guy. And to think, buckyballs *were* on my thinkGeek wish list.
-- /.Lurker
1. Re:Don't sue -- beat 'em in sales! by erroneus · 2010-09-23 10:13 · Score: 1
  
  I'll give you one really good reason. If such a suit and others like them become successful and even common-place, people will begin to think twice before using the DMCA takedown route.
  It is a highly abused law and needs to be removed. By filing lawsuits against people who improperly use the law, it brings more attention of the abuse to the justice system and to the rest of the government.
Missing the big picture by ThatsNotPudding · 2010-09-23 05:40 · Score: 1

How foolish of these two companies; the market is plenty large enough for them both to sell items that will kill and injure children and pets for decades to come! And at the end of the day, isn't that what's really important?
Re:I had some on my kids' Christmas lists... no mo by geekoid · 2010-09-23 05:43 · Score: 1

haha, I like how you use this one article to dictate your decision without looking into Zen magnets business behavior.
But hey, a site you visit said company a is behaving poorly, so go ahead and company b is without any problems.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Just watched the video, and... by cdoggyd · 2010-09-23 05:45 · Score: 0

...I'm going to place my order for Zen Magnets as soon as they're back in stock. Must resist the temptation to send Jake Bronstein a nasty email. Sue because you make an inferior product? Here's a quarter, Jake. Go buy a clue.
Do more research? by Sycraft-fu · 2010-09-23 05:46 · Score: 1

Seems to me there are plenty of good ones out there, if you are willing to pay. Get a consumer reports subscription (they are only like $5 for one month), talk to people you know, etc. LG in particular seems to have a low amount of problems, as does Electrolux. They also build many of the washers and dryers for other companies (LG is building most Kenmores these days).
As for power problems, that is NOT a problem with the unit, that is a problem with your lines. If damaging surges are coming down the lines, you need to suppress them. Do you get mad that a computer not plugged in to a suppressor gets hurt? Then why anything else. If your area has surge problems, fix it. You can get regular plug suppressors, you can get hard wire in line suppressors, you can get whole house, at the panel suppressors. If your power is the problem fix that, don't whine that appliances should not have computers.
Also, being someone who owns/owned a number of 20+ year appliances let me tell you that this idea that they are perfectly reliable is crap. I had to fix my damn dryer multiple times, and it never did a good job drying. My washing machine I just discovered was leaking all over the place (which is why I know about LG washers and dryers as I now own some). Maybe sometimes you get lucky and there are never any problems, but that doesn't mean it is universally that way.
Finally as for stuff that lasts 20 years that is current, well nobody can really tell you that, can they? I lack the magic crystal ball to see the future and if I had it, I'd make better use of it than appliance recommendations. So nobody can guarantee that you get something that lasts forever. What you can do:
1) Do research in to what is recommended by experts, and what has the best track record. Currently LG seems to have the least issues.
2) Spend more rather than less. When something is made bottom dollar, all components need to be as cheap as possible. When it costs more, more expensive components can be used. A $200 washer is going to use the cheapest motor they can get. A $600 one can afford a better motor.
3) Look for ones that have features that help prevent problems. For example in front load washers, get one that has a filter in front of the pump to catch lint, coins, and so on from getting in and damaging it.
4) Take care of your equipment. Read the manual and do the upkeep recommended (like cleaning said pump filter often). Don't just ignore it.
If I were to recommend something, it'd be LG. When it was my money, that's what I bought. They seem well built, their reliability record is good and I like the features. I can't tell you how they'll hold up because I haven't had them for 20 years. Ask me then... But of course it'll be different models on sale at that point.
Ironically by geekoid · 2010-09-23 05:50 · Score: 1

both are made at the same chinese sweat^H^H^H^H^H company.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
The WalMart Effect by geek2k5 · 2010-09-23 05:54 · Score: 1

I call the apparent decline in product quality the 'WalMart Effect.' WalMart sells cheaply made things at a low price so a lot of the market has to respond with cheaper products to remain competitive. You eventually end up with a situation where you can't buy quality items without having to look extra hard for them.
It would be interesting do some comparison shopping, looking at similarly priced products in different stores and comparing them to similar products of different quality. It would be even more interesting to see how product quality has changed over the years, on a quantitative basis. While anecdotal examples are fun, hard, quantitative numbers might reveal some trends that could prove or disprove the 'WalMart Effect'.
1. Re:The WalMart Effect by AK+Marc · 2010-09-23 13:29 · Score: 1
  
  You eventually end up with a situation where you can't buy quality items without having to look extra hard for them.
  
  Also, the effect pushes out the middle. So you end up with high-end or low-end only. Since the high-end can't get by with greater sales in the middle market, the overall cost for the non-crap increases. So yes, if you want respectable products, you actually pay more because of Wal-Mart's pressures.
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
OT - your sig by mcgrew · 2010-09-23 06:02 · Score: 1

How can you need karma with over 500 +5s since they started the achievements page? jesus, that's twice as many as I have and my karma seems to be bulletproof (or I wouldn't be posting this offtopic comment).
Speaking of which, I'm checking both "no bonus" buttons but they don't seem to work, so someone please mod me down. Thx.

--
Free Martian Whores!
1. Re:OT - your sig by grub · 2010-09-23 06:14 · Score: 1
  
  My karma isn't bad, just "good" right now. "Funny" mods gets you nowhere (not even +.25 or +.5) and all it takes is a handful of zealot mods to hurt the ol' karma. Not a biggee :) It's happened before, I'm sure it will happen again.
  
  --
  Trolling is a art,
2. Re:OT - your sig by mcgrew · 2010-09-23 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  Hmmm... I guess if 9/10 of your +5s are "funny" you might have a problem, especially since going for "funny" and missing usually results in a "troll", "falembait", or "offtopic".
  "Funny" is dangerous to your karma. If I had some mod points to sell, would that make me a karma whore or a karma pimp?
  
  --
  Free Martian Whores!
3. Re:OT - your sig by grub · 2010-09-23 06:37 · Score: 1
  
  If I had some mod points to sell, would that make me a karma whore or a karma pimp?
  
  Neither: it'd make me your bitch!
  
  I'm not worried, I've had Terrible in the past. It always makes its way back up.
  
  --
  Trolling is a art,
Help Zen Magnets Out by icewalker · 2010-09-23 06:02 · Score: 1

One solution to this is simple; do you feel buckeyballs (which is a very loose trademark considering the name has been around more than 20 years) is abusing the DMCA and being anticompetitive? If so, then go to http://zenmagnets.com/ and buy a small set of magnets (which are cool by the way). I did! Support the little guy and vote with the dollars you spend! Tell your friends on Facebook about the cool magnets you just bought and that they should buy some too! Let word of mouth get around. Let your actions be the PR and send the message to buckeyballs.
Hey slashdot, tell ThinkGeek to carry ZenMagnets and drop buckeyballs instead.

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The truth is usually just an excuse for lack of imagination.
Zen Magnets, unicorns, and gypsies by Cow+Jones · 2010-09-23 06:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

I bought a magnet set from zenmagnets.com in April, and I love them. They're every bit as advertised, and delivery to Europe was only a little over a week. I can't attest to the quality of the BuckyBalls product, but what I can do is compare the companies' attitudes. We've just read what the BuckyBalls execs are like. As a contrast, here's the confirmation email I got from Zen Magnets after my purchase.

HOORAY! I'm pleased to announce that your order ( #xxx ) has been processed and is now complete.
Please rest assured that we hold great urgency to each and every shipment. We promise your order will be out of our door within 24 hours of receiving this email. Unless you selected a shipping service with tracking, there will not be an additional email.
After a rigorous 4 step process of verifying the quality and consistency of each and every magnet, we donned silk gloves and placed it into a sacred padded envelope made of magic and lined with Unicorn fur, sealed the envelope with an adhesive made from strands of Gypsy hair, and wrapped the whole thing in a snazzy looking faux gold leaf paper, with elm leaf inlay from Costco. Unfortunately, by the time it gets to you, all of that fancy stuff will likely have been picked clean by the greedy postal service employees. Please don't be surprised to see just a plain padded envelope.
Now which company would you rather do business with?
CJ

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Ah, arrogance and stupidity, all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari
1. Re:Zen Magnets, unicorns, and gypsies by xMilkmanDanx · 2010-09-28 11:08 · Score: 1
  
  The one that doesn't contribute to unicorn slaughter and gypsy scalping?
  
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  I am not in anyway affiliated with Max Cannon
Re:Magnets and Renewable Energy! by omnichad · 2010-09-23 06:45 · Score: 1

That IE 6,7,8 rarely displays pages correctly is not entirely accurate. Designers already code for the worst common denominator. If a web site doesn't display correctly in IE6 and a significant portion of their users *have* IE6, then that's a failure on the part of the designer. It's a terrible burden for the poor designers (myself included) but there's no need to strongarm the computer illiterate into an upgrade just so we can have the eye candy we want.
Ah, an intresting test coming up by SmallFurryCreature · 2010-09-23 06:48 · Score: 1

This entire thread has been filled with rants about companies abusing the DMCA and lousy quality and the walmart-effect etc etc. But HERE we have an ACTUAL real customer who is upset. He is upset and wants to force action! He has dollars in his pocket. Dollars another company wants. WILL he withhold them unless they stop doing business with this DMCA abuser and maker of shoddy products?
Yes, when pigs fly, the devil goes to work on a snowplough and cheerleaders chase slashdotters with demands for sex.
We all do it (no, not chase slashdotters demanding sex), blow high and mighty about how we want quality products and ethical products and then forget all about it when it is time to go shopping and hand over our hard earned money.
And the companies know this. Oh, MickyTheIdiot (his own nick, not me ridiculing him) might not buy buckyballs from Thinkgeek today, maybe not even next week, but he will buy from Thinkgeek again, maybe even buckyballs. Just give it a little bit of time. So the company does nothing, doesn't take a stand out of fear of losing its customers because it won't loose any.
Be 100% honest with yourself, how often have you made a stand in your entire life that actually caused you the slightest bit of inconvenience. Anyone living near a BP station stopped pumping there? Anyone take any effort not to buy bio-engineered food or avoid patented crops? How about refusing to use any oil obtained through the war your think was started for it?
Did you cancel your bank account to protest the bail outs?
No... we are the slaves of the companies because we choose to be so. It was easier. But you are allowed to huff and puff on the internet. They know that it will only be a matter of time before you donate your wages again. Christmas shopping is coming up after all.
Now if you excuse me, I must go out and consume.

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MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
to quote George Carlin by Beerdood · 2010-09-23 06:57 · Score: 1

I have the right to my opinion, and my opinion is that you have no right to your opinion.

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Global warming and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking number of pirates - Gospel of the FSM
While we're on the topic... by guyminuslife · 2010-09-23 07:00 · Score: 1

Two drums and a symbol fall out a window. Ba-dum-CHH!

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I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
Re:Fucking Magnets, by guyminuslife · 2010-09-23 07:10 · Score: 1

I have a half-dozen schematics for perpetual motion machines that prove otherwise.

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I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
Quote about quality and price by geek2k5 · 2010-09-23 07:26 · Score: 1

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."
John Ruskin
You're All Missing the Point!! by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 07:39 · Score: 0

The companies are arguing about WHOSE BALLS ARE BETTER!!
C'mon, stay focused!!
Re:Fucking Magnets, by VisceralLogic · 2010-09-23 09:13 · Score: 1

the most interesting thing is that they don't actually work, because the force they exert on something is always perpendicular to the direction of motion of that something.
Except when they're moving something toward or away from them.

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Stop! Dremel time!
Re:Fucking Magnets, by chichilalescu · 2010-09-23 09:35 · Score: 1

yes, the good old gradients. to tell you the truth, I never seriously went through the theory behind "nail is attracted by magnet". I probably should at some point.

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new sig
The law instantly sides with the plaintiff by mykos · 2010-09-23 11:06 · Score: 1

I know it's a civil and not a criminal matter, but there seems to be no downside to making constant accusations and DMCA claims about anything you don't like. You can get anything taken down in minutes with a form letter, yet it takes days or months to get it put back up after expensive legal fights. This system is fucked up.
Not news by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-23 15:39 · Score: 0

A hook nosed kike being aggressively litigious and boorish? Stop the presses!
Hidden photo? by Descalzo · 2010-09-24 01:36 · Score: 1

What's that flash at about 6:32 or 6:33? Subliminal messages!

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I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
I'm confused by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-24 04:25 · Score: 0

Aren't we talking about buckminsterfullerene?
the Buckyballs CEO is a dick by Anonymous Coward · 2010-09-24 05:10 · Score: 0

The Buckyballs CEO is an both a complete asshole but also completely ignorant of the law in terms of IP and libel/slander.
To imagine something similar to the stupidity of the Buckyballs side, imagine that Tektronix came out with a product that competed with HP/Agilent, say an oscilloscope: then imagine HP/Agilent pulling a stunt like this even though the testing clearly shows the Zen product claims are accurate. When a company is incapable of competing on merits they resort to legal threats like Buckyballs resorts to. It's also a sign of a company that's overreached and is in imminent decline.
Frankly, since this is apparently not the first time the Buckyballs CEO has tried to compensate for his lacking manhood these kinds of legal threats, Zen probably just received, courtesy of Buckyballs' CEO himself, all the evidence they need for a open-and-shut countersuit for restraint of trade and copyright violations (false filing of a DMCA takedown notice).
Basically the Buckyballs CEO apparently doesn't know enough about marketing and selling products to understand the nature of the business and what is and is not acceptable behavior. If some prick pull this kind stunt with my company (I'm a co-founder), I'd make some quick work of eliminating both company and CEO from the economic landscape of the USA.