ATMs That Dispense Gold Bars Coming To America

tetrahedrassface writes "As the US economic woes continue unabated, a German company is bringing gold-bearing ATMs to Mainstreet America. The machines accept credit cards, and will dispense 1 gram, 5 gram, 10 gram and 1 ounce units, as well as various gold coins. The company hopes to install 35 bullion machines in the United States this year, and will hopefully have several hundred up and running by next year. The machines will be decorated like giant gold ingots and be over two meters tall. Physical gold has both pros and cons, but from a safety standpoint would it be fine to have a couple of ounces in your pocket while walking around the mall? The giant, gold-dispensing ATMs will monitor the market conditions for gold every 10 minutes in order to reflect spot price changes as they occur." We already covered similar machines installed in travel hubs across Germany.

Comments

Already here

[operagost]

Meanwhile, Slashdot is bringing apostrophe abuse to America.

Re:Already here

[davidbrit2]

I'm just grateful it wasn't "ATM Machine's". I probably would have had an aneurysm. I already feel like I need a shower just from typing it for the sake of example.

Re:Already here

[Anonymous Coward]

For initialisms and abbreviations, an apostrophe is usually acceptable for the non-possessive plural but is generally now considered deprecated; it is more widely used where confusion may otherwise result: A's and B's.

Re:Already here

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm just grateful it wasn't "ATM Machine's". I probably would have had an aneurysm. I already feel like I need a shower just from typing it for the sake of example.

Here, let me plug this cable into your VGA adapter. I will also need to plug this cable into your NIC Card. It also looks like your computer can use some additional DIMM modules.

Just trying to help...

Re:Already here

[ciderbrew]

Let me unfix that for you - DIMM module's

he he hee..

Re:Already here

[ElectricTurtle]

A few days ago I had to say USB bus even though I knew it was redundant because I knew the user wouldn't parse universal serial bus. It hurt a little.

Re:Already here

[DefenseEngineer]

Meanwhile, Slashdot is bringing apostrophe abuse to America.

Are you commenting on the lack of an apostrophe in ATMs? If so, then there is room for interpretation here. Depending on which writing style guide you read it is either appropriate on inappropriate to use an apostrophe to make an acronym plural. Basically, it is up to the writer. However, once the writer selects a style they should stick to it throughout the writing. This writer did exactly that and I can find no mistakes with apostrophes in the writing.

Re:Already here

[Cormacus]

Don't you mean DIMM memory module's? I mean it's great that you want to tell me what kind, but it really doesnt make sense unless you tell me what they are, too.

Re:Already here

[kingturkey]

The title has been edited, it initially had an apostrophe. As the poster above stated, apostrophes in this scenario are frowned upon unless they avoid confusion.

Re:Already here

[DefenseEngineer]

Thank you for the clarification.

Re:Already here

[InfiniteWisdom]

Here, let me plug this cable into your VGA adapte

VGA stands for Video Graphics Array . VGA adapter is not redundant.

Re:Already here

[jabelli]

VGA == "Video Graphics Array," not... whatever you thought it was that ended with "Adapter."

Re:Already here

[jeremymiles]

Will you need my PIN number? Or my personal PIN number?

Re:Already here

[ColdGrits]

In a previous company, our Marketing Director was showing some potential marks, I mean "customers" round the labs.
He came to some prototypes we were working on, and proudly showed off his Tech Skillz to the assembled masses by announcing that "Here's where we assemble our prototypes using printed PCB circuit boards".

I kid you not :-(

Re:Already here

[ColdGrits]

Ah, you'll be wanting our dual inline DIMM memory module's, I take it?

Re:Already here

[Sulphur]

Statement:
The importance of good grammar cannot be overstated.
Reply:
Bad grammar is a leading cause of slow painful death in North America.

Re:Already here

[Abstrackt]

In a previous company, our Marketing Director was showing some potential marks, I mean "customers" round the labs. He came to some prototypes we were working on, and proudly showed off his Tech Skillz to the assembled masses by announcing that "Here's where we assemble our prototypes using printed PCB circuit boards". I kid you not :-(

Clearly he was distinguishing his product from e-PCB circuit boards.

Re:Already here

[gemtech]

While we are on the subject of USB, how about someone telling you to plug into the "serial port" on an old computer, but what they meant was COM1/2. Yes, friends, the "S" in USB is serial.

Re:Already here

[ElectricTurtle]

While calling RS-232 a 'serial port' is ambiguous, it's not wrong. It is a serial standard.

Re:Already here

[gemtech]

My posting was ambiguous, sorry. But thanks for seeing it.
Yes, both USB and COM1/2 (RS-232 electrical standard) are serial bit stream interfaces, that was the point I was trying to make. Not only that but they are both asynchronous serial ports. One happens to be differential half duplex (USB), the other is single-ended with the potential to be full duplex.

Re:Already here

[FatdogHaiku]

Wow, you got a troll for doing the "PIN number" (translates to '"Personal Identification Number" number') and the "personal PIN number" (translates to 'personal "Personal Identification Number" number') joke...

Step away from the keyboard, for the mods are angry today!

Still, those of us in "The Department of Redundancy Department" send along a hearty "Well Done"!

Well, I do believe this little note fulfills my quota of quotation mark abuse for the day...

Re:Already here

[Kagura]

I alway's use it like that.

Re:Already here

[Bitmanhome]

Sure, you can plug it into my liquid LCD.

Re:Already here

[Darundal]

Doesn't surprise me, considering how many people say PIN number.

Re:Already here

[Anonymous Coward]

printed PCB circuit boards

Maybe he thought the Printed Circuit Boards were made out of PolyChlorinated Biphenyls?

Re:Already here

[Wingnut64]

The words 'Statement:' and 'slow painful death' caused my brain to read your comment in HK-47's voice.

Re:Already here

[AK Marc]

ATM machine, HIV virus, AIDS syndrome, SCUBA apparatus. OK, maybe not the last one...

Re:Already here

[ciderbrew]

+1Flamebait - that's harsh?!?
I'd give +1 funny and x6 flamebait - them's' is's fighting word's'. :)

Re:Already here

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure you're not talking about your LCD display?

Put them right outside the dungeon?

[twoallbeefpatties]

It would be nice to not have to haul that entire bag of 2,000 coins back to town. I might run into a random encounter before then...

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[suso]

I have a magical bag of holding that you can put them in. Its call my pocket.

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[Cwix]

If you can carry that much weight in your pocket, you must have maxed out your strength attribute.

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[suso]

Not unless I take off this ring and these gauntlets.

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[AndrewNeo]

And his.. pants.. attribute?

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[nschubach]

I know this is pedantic... but I'm pretty sure there are no maximums with pen and paper. ;)

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not unless I take off this ring and these gauntlets.

...and then put on your robe and wizard hat?

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[Dishevel]

Of course there are. I never let my players run around with 900lbs of gold. The wonderful thing about pen and paper over all computer forms was that in pen and paper we could make use of common sense.

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[ElectricTurtle]

You realize by being pedantic you are opening yourself to further pedantry. Firstly: you seem to assume incorrectly that there is only one pen and paper system. I assure you there are dozens, some of which do have maximums. Secondly: while the d20 system(s) may not have an absolute maximum, there is an effective maximum that is a function of the character's base stat and racial traits, class advancement, as well as magical effects both temporary (including item effects) and permanent. Consequently while there may not be an overarching monolithic maximum, there comes a point where a specific character just cannot find anything else to stack to climb any higher up the ladder of a given stat and has reached the effective maximum for that character.

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[mordred99]

Rob Roy reference?

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[the eric conspiracy]

I thought pedantry was a crime. If it isn't it really should be.

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[Anonymous Coward]

player setstrength 99999

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[nschubach]

Sure, but the phrasing "you must have maxed out your strength attribute" to me would denote a player hitting a hard cap and not simply running out of increase items or ability to increase said stat. (And yes, I know not all games play by common d20 rules... it was more my odd hypothetical/theoretical humor than anything.)

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can carry that much weight in your pocket, you must have maxed out your strength attribute.

32 point build!

Re:Put them right outside the dungeon?

[treeves]

Perhaps you're thinking of pederasty?

Golden post?

[Anonymous Coward]

new meaning to "frost piss"

Cue the crying

[Pojut]

I bet Glenn Beck is pissed about this.

Re:Cue the crying

[nschubach]

Glenn would only be pissed if "In God We Trust" wasn't imprinted on all of the gold bars... otherwise, I think he would approve of people putting money in gold. I could be wrong, but most conservative stations I've tuned in are selling gold as if the end of humanity was just over the horizon.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

I could be wrong, but most conservative stations I've tuned in are selling gold as if the end of humanity was just over the horizon.

Most conservative radio shows I tune into advertise gold buying/selling on their stations because some gold buying/selling company paid them shit tons of money to advertise it.

Re:Cue the crying

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

What you're missing is that Glenn Beck's radio show is sponsored by a competitor "Goldline International" and he gets significant money for doing regular TV and radio ads for them. He used to be listed as a "paid spokesman" for their product until someone notified Fox with regard to his regular rants on his Fox News Channel program about how everyone should buy gold. Since that is against Fox's policies, the gold peddler changed all the adverts to say he is a "radio sponsor" and Fox ignored the issue, which shows how much they actually care about the integrity of their programming.

Re:Cue the crying

[feepness]

I don't particularly like Glenn Beck, but should he endorse products he doesn't believe in?

Re:Cue the crying

[Pojut]

The point is that, agree with him or not, a lot of people listen to Beck and do/agree with most of what he says.

Convincing people to buy gold because the economy could collapse while simultaneously being a paid spokesman for a company that buys gold and melts it is a bit asshatish...don't you think?

Re:Cue the crying

[timeOday]

I could be wrong, but most conservative stations I've tuned in are selling gold as if the end of humanity was just over the horizon.

Humanity won't end, but this gold bubble will, and these ATMs are the surest possible sign.

Remember those round-the-clock commercials for mortgages, and the reality shows about flipping houses, the last year or two before the mortgage bust that wrecked the economy? This is that, but for gold. When half the teenagers in shopping malls adopt your investment strategy, it is time to sell.

Now, I have to give the gold standard guys some credit, they said it would go up, and it did, bigtime. But you only profit from getting in on time if you also get out on time, and IMHO that could be any day now.

Re:Cue the crying

[feepness]

Convincing people to buy gold because the economy could collapse while simultaneously being a paid spokesman for a company that buys gold and melts it is a bit asshatish...don't you think?

Goldline sells gold, it doesn't buy and melt it. And considering what the price of gold has done, it seems that in this particular instance Beck has given excellent advice.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably the first time I've seen the words "Fox" and "integrity" used in the same sentence without it immediately eliciting raucous laughter. Sir, I salute you!

Re:Cue the crying

[DragonWriter]

I don't particularly like Glenn Beck, but should he endorse products he doesn't believe in?

The point is that ethical news organizations -- which Fox News, credible or not in doing so, pretends to be -- don't allow employees who are also paid advocates for a product or cause to address that cause through the news organization without disclosing that interest.

Re:Cue the crying

[veganboyjosh]

Goldline sells gold, it doesn't buy and melt it.

They just sell the gold they create, then?

Re:Cue the crying

[feepness]

No, they sell gold that government mints issue. While this isn't my preferred way of investing in gold, it was popular in some circles long before Beck. It is fun to give a gold coin to a kid though. Well, maybe not for the kid. Still better than socks I guess.

I believe the slimy companies that buy gold jewelry and the like simply pay a pittance for it and then sell the gold for new jewelry, but I could be wrong. In any case, this isn't what Goldline does.

Re:Cue the crying

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I don't particularly like Glenn Beck, but should he endorse products he doesn't believe in?

Congratulations on making a strawman argument. No one said he should endorse products he doesn't believe in. That was all you. I'd say if he's being paid by a news channel maybe he shouldn't be endorsing products at all, certainly not on air and while being paid by the company and while not disclosing the conflict of interest.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Goldline just tries to sell you collectible coins at 90% over their melt value. If you believe anything that Glenn Beck tells you, or buy into anything he's hawking, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Re:Cue the crying

[DavidTC]

Um, no, Goldline is a scam, whether or not investing in gold is a good idea.

Why? Because Goldline is selling gold at a 150% markup, and hence no one will ever get their investment back.

You call, they give a little spiel about how the price of gold has gone up and is thus a good investment, or has gone down and hence is a good time to buy, and they they sell you gold at absurd markup and fail to mention that it has any markup at all.

They're pretending to be a commodities broker, and talk a lot about 'reselling' and whatnot. They're actually conmen, and under investigation by the Senate.

And Glenn Beck and Fox News knows this damn well, but are paid a lot.

This is totally irrelevant to whether or not gold is a good investment. It might be if you actually purchase gold at market price, but it sure as hell isn't if you purchase from Goldline.

Re:Cue the crying

[feepness]

The point is that ethical news organizations -- which Fox News, credible or not in doing so, pretends to be -- don't allow employees who are also paid advocates for a product or cause to address that cause through the news organization without disclosing that interest.

Do you feel the same way regarding Gore's global warming investments and his warnings Re: such.

Re:Cue the crying

[Pojut]

I would have to say no, because Gore isn't on the payroll of any news organizations...he is, for all intents and purposes, "self" employed. He can say whatever fool thing he damn well pleases.

Re:Cue the crying

[tisepti]

While buying gold might be a viable investment strategy buying it via Goldline is not. Their markups over commodity - or even their competitors - are enormous. Sure the price may have doubled since you bought your 'investment' but if bought at a 150% markup (large but not their worst one) those gains will not be seen by you. Assuming you don't believe in a total collapse of the entire world economy you would be better off buying something like a mining company or ultra-low risk foreign bonds.

And if you *do* believe in total collapse I'd recommend that the heavy metal you want is three over on the elemental chart.

Re:Cue the crying

[feepness]

Why? Because Goldline is selling gold at a 150% markup, and hence no one will ever get their investment back.

I just looked up their price for the Austrian 4 Ducat. It's at about 40% higher than what you'd pay on Ebay. I do think that is too expensive for me personally, and I'm not sure what guarantees they offer over an anonymous seller on Ebay, but it is a far cry from 150% markup.

Coins are a shitty way to invest in gold in my opinion, but as I said, it's been going on far longer than Beck.

Re:Cue the crying

[DragonWriter]

Do you feel the same way regarding Gore's global warming investments and his warnings Re: such

The question makes no sense. The statement I made was that "ethical news organizations ... don't allow employees who are also paid advocates for a product or cause to address that cause through the news organization without disclosing that interest."

Al Gore is not a news organization, or an employee of a news organization, so that statement has no applicability to him.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't invest in gold to make money. You invest for security. It's only a part of a diverse portfolio.

Re:Cue the crying

[networkBoy]

If you are expecting collapse, then gold is not that good of an investment, as not much will be worth a whole ounce of gold and buying smaller pieces exposes you to way over spot prices.
1, 5, and 10 ounce silver rounds/bars, ammo (for trade and protection), salt, durable foodstuffs, and toilet paper are the most valuable commodities. With those you will likely be able to trade for anything else you need.
Depending on your morals, level of need, and the social situation at the time of need if you can not trade with any of the above, you have a realistic chance of *taking* what you need by way of the stored ammunition.
-nB

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

Convincing people to buy gold because the economy could collapse while simultaneously being a paid spokesman for a company that buys gold and melts it is a bit asshatish...don't you think?

I thought Beck's economic terror alert was a stroke of genius. I think it went: stocks (green), bonds, real estate, treasury bonds, gold (red). I don't think Beck pushes panic or gold. I do believe he thinks we are like any other nation that has existed: vulnerable to economic collapse. To even hint at insult against Beck for being against deficit is, IMO, an act of unbelievable hubris. BTW, the issue has little to do with taxes coming in. The tax level as a function of GDP stays relatively constant over time regardless the actual level. The problem we have is allowing Congress(es) to make promises that future congresses will have to pay for. Thus, the actual deficit represented by borrowed money is dwarfed by promises made but unfunded. These include social security, medicare, pensions. We need defined benefits plans for a public aid and public workers. If Ford/GE/Private Co etc want to make promises their shareholders are on the hook for, that is their problem (unless Obama decides to buy their company and fund their union pensions).

Re:Cue the crying

[TimSSG]

I've got a bridge to sell you

Whatever you do don't buy the London Bridge; I hear that it is falling down. Tim S.

Re:Cue the crying

[InfiniteWisdom]

Considering what the price of .com stocks are done you can't go wrong
Considering what the price of real estate has done you can't go wrong
Considering what the price of gold has done you can't go wrong

Re:Cue the crying

[feepness]

While he's not specifically a news organization, he does attempt to provide commentary on newsworthy issues. If one can simply avoid ethical obligations by not being part of a news organization, that seems a rather low bar to set.

Re:Cue the crying

[mcatrage]

They make a major push to sell collectible coins which is different than pure gold. It isn't in direct relation to the market like bullion so when Goldline has a large mark up even if gold increases in value substantially you may never see a profit when you try to sell.

Re:Cue the crying

[feepness]

Um, no, Goldline is a scam, whether or not investing in gold is a good idea.

I didn't say goldine was a good idea. I said investing in gold is a good idea.

Re:Cue the crying

[labradore]

It's not that the end of humanity is on its way. It's the end of this economy. At some point, everyone will come to realize:

1. That the nation's debt, is only getting bigger, and
2. That our economy is not going to grow enough to even keep station with current levels, much less the exploding debt we are taking on.
3. That most of the wealth in the nation is concentrated at the top more densely than any other time in our history (the top 1% wealthiest people own 2/3 of all US assets), and
4. That most of the pain (the tab for the bills coming due) is going to be laid on the middle class, not on the elites at the top.

There's not going to be a jobs recovery. A huge big chunk of our economy was dedicated to developing real estate and financing the sale of that development. The value of real estate is just not coming back for decades. Those jobs are permanently gone, just like the textile jobs of yore. There are no replacements in services or in manufacturing. Our technology edge is eroding and as it vanishes, so too will the production of the remaining expensive manufactured goods that we make here.

Gold ATMs are not useful except in the most dire emergencies. If you need to use one, it's already too late. No one is going to sell gold in the midst of a currency crisis. These things exist to take advantage of the fool. The reason they will make money is that even a fool can see that there is a crisis coming, while very few have any good plan for dealing with it.

Re:Cue the crying

[fnj]

150% markup or 50% markup?

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree completely.

First, those gold commercials have been around forever. You just never noticed them.

Second, it's not the price of gold that's going up, it's the value of the dollar going down. Maybe you believe the dollar will strengthen, and I respect all opinions. But I'd have to say, with quantitative easing #1 over and #2 on the way, I see only downward pressure from here. So I believe the gold bugs are right, even if many don't understand why.

Finally, I don't think teenagers in malls are thinking about investment strategies. If any of them are buying gold from kiosks, it's only because they saw something shiny.

As a disclaimer, I do own 1/8 oz of gold somewhere, as it was given to me as a gift. Maybe that makes me a gold investor, I don't know.

Re:Cue the crying

[MadUndergrad]

Are you being obtuse on purpose? The price of gold has gone up largely *because* Beck and friends have been pimping it. The people who listen to his rants without knowing that he's getting paid by Goldline are getting scammed. Textbook conflict of interest.

Re:Cue the crying

[h4rr4r]

You mean telling people to buy at the peak is good advice?

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

It could go insanely high, if CDOs and CDSes aren't reined in a bit. Currently the GDP of the planet is around $50 trillion. However, outstanding CDO obligations, in the event of a crash in the "investments" they're issued against, is around $400 trillion. Put quite bluntly, the world is insolvent. A couple more good solid shocks to the world economy could start a massive run on those investments, causing world governments to be forced in to printing money like mad to cover the spread (because that's what they've already shown that they'll do). Should that happen, the estimates I've seen show that the ensuing inflation would put gold in the ludicrous range of ~$1 million per ounce.

I'm not advocating buying in though; if that really did happen, you'd have much bigger concerns than the value of some yellow rocks. Bullets and (non-Monsanto) plant seeds would be a FAR better investment of cash at that point. Point though is that you might think gold is insanely overvalued right now, but you ain't seen nothin' yet .

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

Im sure he meant 150% of the correct market value. ie: $100 x 150% = $150 while you're saying it's $100 + 40% = $140. Not much of a difference to be arguing.

Re:Cue the crying

[doctorfaustus]

Heh! What a great investment gold is for Beck's suckers... uh, I mean audience. For example, the hearing brought out the following:

"Salesmen suggesting the only "safe" gold investments are coins and commemoratives. A doctor telling of buying $160,000 in gold coins and six months later learning they were worth $80,000 less than he paid because of a high markup."

WalletPop: http://srph.it/9Dhga4

Re:Cue the crying

[ottothecow]

Also, I would imagine that his interests are more of a "put your money where your mouth is" type thing.

Beck is being paid real money by goldline. He is almost certainly not a customer of theirs and he is not an investor--i.e. he will get paid his sponsor money regardless of what direction the price of gold moves in or how well the company does.

Gore holds investments which, while it may provide an incentive to push people in the same direction, is wholly different than being a paid shill. For Gore to get a payout, things actually have to go the right way (or enough people have to agree that they will)

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

This. Gold is a hedge against inflation, nothing more. Anyone buying heavily in to gold had better be good at playing the currency markets and have good reason to expect insane inflation.

Anyone that has bought in to this point has just been speculating, and that speculation has been the sole driver of gold prices. The inflation hasn't materialized yet, and we can't be certain it will. It might, but if it doesn't, a lot of suckers will lose their ass in the crash. Welcome to what a bubble always looks like: prices of a particular commodity rising with no apparent reason for it to rise outside of people taking a leap of faith.

Re:Cue the crying

[DavidTC]

150%, believe it or not.

Goldline's average markup is 90%. Markups as much as 208% have been located.

Interesting damn 'investment'.

It's worth pointing out that this machine is at 30% markup, which is still really really high for a commodity, but less utterly absurd.

Re:Cue the crying

[DavidTC]

The average markup of Goldline coins is 90%. Some are as high as 208%.

I'm not sure what's going on with ebay, but prices listed on ebay are hardly the actual value of something.

Re:Cue the crying

[feepness]

Are you being obtuse on purpose? The price of gold has gone up largely *because* Beck and friends have been pimping it.

The vast majority of gold demand comes from India and China. While I can't be sure, I'm not sure Beck is broadly popular in those countries.

Re:Cue the crying

[rubycodez]

that would be true except our Federal Reserve has put us on a non-sustainable game plan, to pump currency through primary dealers to buoy markets. This might work for six months to more than a year, barring major war.

Re:Cue the crying

[DavidTC]

Nope. I mean 250% of the correct market value.

The average Goldline price is 190% of the correct market value.

Re:Cue the crying

[DavidTC]

Yes, it's amazing how Beck's 'excellent advice' is neatly bracketed by conmen who are willing to con people by having a con that appears to be exactly what he recommends, but is not.

And I should point out that investing in a market that's at the highest it's ever been is not, technically speaking, a 'good idea'.

It is, in technical jargon, 'fucking goddamn stupid'.

But, hey, we've need a new bubble now that the rich can't defraud people by having them 'invest' in housing anymore. With the economic downturn, the rich are starting to feel the pinch, and really appreciate the morons willing to buy their gold from them at absurd prices.

Re:Cue the crying

[e9th]

Indeed. Legitimate dealers will sell bullion coins (e.g., Eagles) for about 4% over spot, and buy them for 1% over. That 3% difference is where their profit comes from.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely!*

*If you've got a lot of gold you need to get rid of before it drops in value and you start losing money.

Re:Cue the crying

[lowell]

Just because someone is to stupid to do some research to understand what gold should be bought and sold for, does not make it a scam. Is goldline shady, maybe. But it is not a scam. Social Security is a scam. Buying and selling for anything over 1%-2% is dumb. A couple of years ago when silver was moving up and down on a daily basis I bought and sold 10 oz. silver bars every couple of days depending on price. There was no problem covering spot on the trade because the moves were huge. One day I would go in and buy 100 oz. of silver at $8 or 9$ and in a week or so it would go to $14-$15 range I would sell. Then go back a few days later and buy it all back from the same guy for $8 or $9 an ounce. There was always someone buying at $14 plus 2% over when I was selling for the same money. Once the prices stopped moving as much I quit trading. That simple. If you are paying 150% over spot your a fool. Gold and silver should not really be used as an investment though. It is nice to have some Krugerrand and Maple Leafs around. I do have a few Gold Buffalo coins but they were a wedding gift. They still sell for way to much over spot for me. They were selling for numismatic value. This is the realm of the coin collector. And this is probably what Gold line is doing. Again, an individual who makes a poor choice based on ignorance does not make a scam, just a bad choice. People really need to be responsible for themselves.

Re:Cue the crying

[durdur]

Gold and other hard assets have some value as a hedge against a decline in paper currency. I think the odds of that happening in a catastrophic fashion in the US are fairly small. Even should it occur, there are plenty of examples of currencies collapsing without the government vanishing and having everyone have to go survivalist. So IMO that is even less likely.

Re:Cue the crying

[TerranFury]

Also, alkaline batteries, cigarettes, and gasoline.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

> But you only profit from getting in on time if you also get out on time

Which is exactly what these guys are doing. If you are buying from these machines you probably at the losing end of the deal.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's not that the end of humanity is on its way. It's the end of this economy."

"the *nation's* debt"
"*our* economy"
"most of the wealth in the *nation*"

You do know that "this economy" and "this world" is a bit wider than the US of A, don't you?

Re:Cue the crying

[BlueStrat]

Beck is being paid real money by goldline. He is almost certainly not a customer of theirs

In nearly every radio spot I've heard Beck do for Goldline (he doesn't pimp them on Fox) he has stated that he was a Goldline customer long before they were a customer of his. He also states that buying gold the way he does (coins) is, quote; "crazy-town".

The reason some buy in coins is that when FDR had banned private ownership of gold, there were exceptions for collectible, antique, and rare coins.

People like George Soros have reportedly recently been moving large chunks of their wealth into physical gold, so how nuts it is to buy gold as a hedge is not clear.

It is also unclear whether claims of Goldline prices being "excessive" are accurate, as no mention of how example purchases were made, i.e. whether the example purchase was gold bullion or coins, gold plus offered secure storage, direct shipment, additional shipment insurance costs included or not, etc etc.

Goldline has existed for ~50 years is rated A+ by the BBB.

It seems to me that the attacks on Goldline have more to do with attacking Glenn Beck and his political message through attacking his sponsors as opposed to any actual wrongdoing.

Strat

Re:Cue the crying

[DragonWriter]

While he's not specifically a news organization, he does attempt to provide commentary on newsworthy issues.

Yes, that's what issue advocates, paid and unpaid, with and without financial interests at stake, do.

There might be a place to argue about the ethics that apply to issue advocacy, but they aren't the same as those that apply to an entity that holds itself out as a news organization.

If one can simply avoid ethical obligations by not being part of a news organization, that seems a rather low bar to set.

The ethical burden of a news organization are directly related to the idea that a news organization, as such, holds itself out as something different than an issue advocacy organization or an individual issue advocate.

Re:Cue the crying

[OptimusPaul]

two things.... first the recovery that everyone is praying for is being held up by this kind of thinking. Things will get better, not as fast as we would like, but they will. The biggest hold up in my opinion is people attitudes. Too many people are spreading doom and gloom and not making positive efforts for our social well being. secondly, what is the point of making money if the economy falls apart? The Gold ATMs are appearing because of the economic climate, but not because they think it will fail, but because you think it will. They are banking on it not failing.

Re:Cue the crying

[pitterpatter]

OK, made me look.

I was puzzling over Thalium when I saw I'd miscounted by starting at 1, not 0. :D

Re:Cue the crying

[operagost]

Yeah, I'm sure he's pissed that people would find it easier to do exactly what he's recommending they do.

Re:Cue the crying

[operagost]

I know you're only used to public radio and TV, where funding comes from taxpayers and suckers who buy overpriced CDs and DVDs, but the rest of us dirty capitalists make money by selling stuff.

Re:Cue the crying

[operagost]

Why? Because Goldline is selling gold at a 150% markup, and hence no one will ever get their investment back.

Those are collectible coins. They are worth much more than face value. Is advising a non-collector to buy coins instead of bullion wise? Usually not. However, calling it a "150% markup" is a lie. You can blame their huge numismatic value on progressive darling FDR, who needed gold for the reserve so he set the exchange rate artificially low and confiscated it from his fellow citizens. Most of the 20th century gold was melted down because at the time it didn't have collector value; now it does, because it is exceedingly rare.

Re:Cue the crying

[operagost]

Are you a total ignoramus? The price of gold is set by global demand. Non-Americans couldn't give a crap what Glenn Beck thinks.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, Fox sucks.

Meanwhile, go green energy! Not as if most Dems won't get their pockets nicely lined.

Re:Cue the crying

[DavidTC]

I'm not saying it's 150% markup from the value of the gold. It's 150% markup from the value of the coins.

The average Goldline markup is 90%. It goes as high as 208%.

It's a huge increase from the price you'd actually expect to buy the coins from at a rare coin dealer, which have a markup closer to 15%, sometimes 20%.

Re:Cue the crying

[DavidTC]

They're making poor choices based on what a 'news network' is telling them.

Re:Cue the crying

[LeperPuppet]

When half the teenagers in shopping malls adopt your investment strategy, it is time to sell.

It's OK though, because if we prevent teenagers from gathering in the malls, the bubble will never burst.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see what use gold will have if the stuff hits the fan. You can't eat it, build with it, or make tools out of it. It will be useless until people have the spare resources to then worry about pretty, shiny things or build electronics.

Re:Cue the crying

[TapeCutter]

"The price of gold has gone up largely *because* Beck and friends have been pimping it."

You are giving Beck's chump change scam waaayyyy too much credit.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that if everything around us collapsed, I'd be willing to trade your gold, ounce-for-ounce, for my canned beans, on the off chance that it was worth something again one day.

Re:Cue the crying

[Anonymous Coward]

But it has intrinsic value!

Re:Cue the crying

[edittard]

Then you'd starve, and he'd be alive to take his gold back.

If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[GungaDan]

will we win a trip to Glenn Beck's magical crazy factory?

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[tmosley]

No, you get to stay in yours. You know, where your purchasing power is continuously diluted by inflation and "Quantitative Easing" ie money printing.

Enjoy your Zimbabwe.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because the economic crunches brought about by the hoarding of resources in a metallic standard economy are so favourable. Inflation is not a bug, it's a feature: it makes it so the upper class can't hoard too much.

Tool.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[Eponymous Coward]

You know, there are quite a few people carrying a massive debt load who would love to see some hyperinflation.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[Anonymous Coward]

will we win a trip to Glenn Beck's magical crazy factory?

and i bet you didn't know that Mr. Beck has foretasted many things that make you angry now, such as Mr Obama's internet control story that ran here on /. yesterday.
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/09/27/1221213/Obama-Wants-Broader-Internet-Wiretap-Authority

you liberal techies shouldn't be liberal at all. wise up, and realize you are really not libs.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[GungaDan]

One need not be "liberal" to find Mr. Beck to be a shitjugglingly insane moron and a blight on the nation's airwaves. The fact that you are apparently a fan of his speaks volumes about which of us is in need of "wising up."

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[tmosley]

lol, you think hoarding worthless metal is stopping the creation and circulation of real goods?

It must be opposite day in modland.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[tmosley]

Yeah, that's the ticket. We can lose our debts, our government, and our lives as we starve to death in the streets as trillionaires.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you misunderstand inflation.

It hurts people who are living paycheck to paycheck, because their wages don't rise as fast as their day to day expenses. Rich people (who own a lot of assets) find that the nominal value of their assets goes up just as fast, or faster than their expenses.

Additionally, the rich have far more flexibility in how they allocate their income, and thus are better able to protect themselves.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[ElectricTurtle]

And this is why ACs don't set monetary policy. Inflation doesn't hurt the wealthy, it hurts retirees and the disabled who are on fixed incomes. Suddenly their purchasing power drops and they're eating dog food dinners. Whereas people who are employed might see an inflation adjustment, and debtors may have an opportunity to settle debts for effectively pennies on the dollar.

Who's the tool now, eh?

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[ElectricTurtle]

Hey, it worked for the Weimar Republic!

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[Anonymous Coward]

You should have heard what Bill O'Reilly said about Glenn Beck. Watch September 27th's Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[feepness]

Inflation is not a bug, it's a feature: it makes it so the upper class can't hoard too much.

Inflation destroys those with fixed incomes and at the lower end of the income scale the most as the majority of their incomes go to food and fuel, which are conveniently left out of the "core inflation" measure.

Meanwhile, the wealthy can invest in commodities which weather the inflation.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[Anonymous Coward]

>> people carrying a massive debt load who would love to see some hyperinflation

Such as the American Government.

I'm no fan of the Tea Baggers, but we really need to elect some politicians who won't bankrupt the country.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[jimrthy]

Why has this been modded funny?

Personally, I think it's scary as Hell. But I'm glad that other people are starting to notice the parallels.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[jimrthy]

I had a long conversation with my brother once about what classical liberalism really means (small government, more freedom for everyone, no partnerships between government and business, be willing to try out new policies when it looks like they might make life better for everyone). And what it truly means to be conservative (small government, if it ain't broke, don't fix it).

Neither point of view has any meaningful representation in modern government. "Both" parties have been hijacked by collectivists.

It took me weeks to forgive him for convincing me that I truly am a classical liberal.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[tmosley]

Ignore, laugh, fight, win. These are the four stages of victory as laid out by Ghandi. Apparently, we are somewhere between stage 2 and 3, as I am being modded troll and funny on these things.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[chocolatetrumpet]

I'm not an economist, but does anyone else think inflation is a bad idea?

A friend of mine thinks inflation will always arise because there will always be people and institutions willing to pay interest, even if the primary, government regulated currency resisted inflation.

I remember reading about a bank in the 70s which would accept deposits in USD and then store them in a commodity-backed currency (i.e., one unit = x barrels of hay + y bushels of corn + z barrels of oil)... sounds like an interesting idea, but I never found out what happened to that institution.

Anyway, anyone want to sell me on the idea of inflation? The worst effect of an inflation-proof currency I can imagine is that people would save their money instead of investing, which is potentially bad if you're trying to borrow money.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[jimrthy]

That's very telling. Keep up the good fight.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[ElectricTurtle]

Macroeconomics is becoming an increasingly disgusting ecosystem. I'm really not afraid of an 'inflation crisis leads to fascism' scenario like that of the Weimar era, but still watching the socialist nations of the world pulsing with debt which they then mitigate with orchestrated inflation at the expense of the poor whom they then buy off with the stolen product of the middle and upper classes... and then they have the gall to blame the negative impacts of their debt/inflation cycle on the "free market" that none of them actually have. This excuse makes them more and more interventionist creating a deeper and deeper debt/inflation cycle.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[tmosley]

Perhaps the most apt metaphor is that of bloodletting. As the "doctors" drained the blood, the patients got progressively worse, leading them to prescribe more bloodletting. It's a vicious cycle perpetuated by economic ignorance.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[feepness]

Anyway, anyone want to sell me on the idea of inflation? The worst effect of an inflation-proof currency I can imagine is that people would save their money instead of investing, which is potentially bad if you're trying to borrow money.

The worst part of inflation-proof currency is that it could be deflation prone, causing people to horde the money rather than spend it. This slows the economy because people only spend on essentials. Looking, however, at the willy-nilly spending people engage in, this doesn't sound like a bad idea. Maybe we need to stop spending madly and start focusing on things besides OOooo! SHINY!

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[lgw]

A barter system sucks, and is no way to make productive activity happen. So you need money. But money only solves the problems of a barter system if theres enough currency around that people use it as barter tokens, instead of hoarding the tokens themselves - once that hoarding starts, you're back to all the problems of a barter system. You can extend that to the ability to borrow money, which is really important if you want to see good new ideas become products you can buy, but that's a second-order effect. Nations have collapsed due simply to the lack of available currency with which to conduct business, or at least partially so (armies are reluctanct to accept barter, after all).

So, you need some way to increase the money supply as needed to keep up with a growing economy, or you won't have a growing economy. No one has a way to increase the money supply without making each unit of currency worth less. And those units of currency becoming worth less isn't really a problem, as long as it doesn't get out of hand - that encourages people not to hoard their barter tokens, and that's a feature not a bug.

Currency is simply not wealth, and shouldn't be thought of as such. As long as its value decreases slowly, it's fine.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because the economic crunches brought about by the hoarding of resources in a metallic standard economy are so favourable.

Speculative Prediction : If we move to a global standard, it won't be based on a precious metal, it'll be against energy. My gut says America will push for a "barrel of sweet crude" as the standard, but I suspect the kilowatt/hour will rise to prominence as a more resilient, globally democratic metric.
One problem with moving to, say, gold, is that too much middle-class wealth has already been sunk into it, and the bulk of a correction of an inflated economy will almost certainly be taken from the middle and lower classes (first). All a defensive investor has to do is look where the middle and lower class wealth has accumulated, and avoid that.
The goal of a managed economy will be to keep people busy, so as a proactive middle class investor with a belief that your country's economy is destined for the sewer, your only real wealth-preserving option will be to set yourself up to employ as many people as possible under an economic circumstance dependent on small government grants. If you are able to set up an endeavour that is functional without government assistance, so much the better, but the ROI is going to be incredibly slim, and will almost certainly have to be re-invested into greater employment. A capacity to employ, re-educate, and feed-house-cloth people is the kind of "investment" that will carry weigh, not some brick of shiny metal.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[jimrthy]

It's not the "hyperinflation leads to fascism" oversimplification that's really scary. Just the parallels between what we're living through and the years that led to Nazi Germany.

The interventionist cycle you describe so well is something concrete we can point to and say "See? It doesn't work. Time to try something different."

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[feepness]

Currency does not have to lose value in order to expand for a growing economy. If the currency grows with the economy it will maintain its value. It's only when the amount of available currency grows faster than the economy that inflation occurs.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[ElectricTurtle]

Concretes don't do anything for the kind of people who believe in interventionist economics and socialism. They're just like the people who believe gun control is an absolute necessity. The evolution of concealed carry laws since the 80s is particularly telling, in state after state the gun control lobby hit the same points about 'shoot outs in the streets' and 'think of the children!' Years later all the states which enacted shall-issue concealed carry have violent crime rates that are the same or lower than they had before, but what does the gun control lobby say to such facts when legislation comes up in the few states left that still deny carry? 'Shoot outs in the streets!' Yeah, because the way that didn't happen in the last THIRTY STATES shouldn't be taken as evidence that it won't happen in the next one.

You ask a gun control advocate why gun control doesn't bring down crime rates and their answer is always some variation on 'it's just not controlled *enough*!' Interventionist economists are the same way, it's always some variation of 'there isn't enough regulation in place to keep bad things from happening! If we regulate businesses more strictly then things will be more stable... ' except of course for the businesses forced to scale back or close because of the overhead costs of working around the new regulation, triggering a recession. Not to mention the negative effects on a market that is always paranoid about the not-so-invisible hand of government changing the rules midway through some kind of investment such that it negates the invested value by intervention.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[chocolatetrumpet]

I'm with feepness... I think the money supply could be carefully managed to grow with the economy without inflation.

I guess my main gripe is mainly not with inflation per se but with the idea that the economy must grow indefinitely forever.

My feeling is that, at some point, we're going to have to learn to live in harmony with our environment. It seems to me that our economic growth is entirely based on population growth.

It also seems as though all of our amazing improvements in efficiency have not led to more leisure hours for all, as would have been assumed, but has actually led to less jobs, with the few remaining workers going crazy with overtime and a decrease in purchasing power.

So... now what?

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[ScentCone]

It took me weeks to forgive him for convincing me that I truly am a classical liberal

It really doesn't matter what the terms used to mean, it's how they're being used now. Most progressives might be surprised to know that the people who started out with that label were in favor of things like eugenics.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[Rakarra]

I'd be more worried about being the next Zimbabwe than the next Weimer. :-)

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[jimrthy]

Excellent points!

I wasn't thinking about talking to the committed collectivists. I know I won't convert them. The only reason I bother talking to them in the first place is on discussion boards where someone might come along later and get seduced by the same madness.

It's the same people who might be swayed by the "Look. It keeps failing. Time to try something different" argument.

Keep up the good work.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[jimrthy]

True. But, up until that night, I was pretty sure I was an old-school conservative.

I was joking about forgiving him, BTW. It's not like the labels matter at all. It's just a way of summing up a bunch of complicated ideas to tell people the basic gist of what you believe.

I wonder how many progressives I run across today are still in favor of eugenics. Several of them have let me know they'd love to see me dead.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[drsquare]

Governments can release their gold reserves as easily as they can release fiat currency.

What do you think happens to your gold prices when they empty Fort Knox?

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[lgw]

Most economic growth has come from technological growth. Most of technology throughout history has been about finding ways to use mechanical energy to replace human labor. Until the "information revolution", that was the only useful definition of "technology", really.

And we have far more leisure hours for a given standard of living. People choose to divert leisure hours to improving their standard of living. For example, it's now quite reasonable to have both parents working and still have a reasonably clean house. This simply was not the case 100 yeras ago (excepting servents for this discussion). Heck, if you're willling to accept a 19th century standard of living, you could probably manage it without a job at all - my brother did that for a little while (living sort of off the grid) until the boredom became too much.

None of which has anything to do with inflation.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[lgw]

Perhaps in perfect theory, but in practice the expanding currency must often lead the expanding economy. In any case, every government in history has eventually resorted to debasing the currency in some fashion in order to spend more than it makes. That may not be a theoretical requirement for inflation, but it's a real-world one. If we take as a given that the government will spend more than it takes in, a bit of inflation is the least painful way to accomodate that bad habit.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[tmosley]

What makes you think they haven't already?

It hasn't been audited in 60 years.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[tmosley]

Your conclusion is correct. If your first two sentances were correct, no-one would ever buy computers, which have been going down in price and getting better for decades. No-one ever complains about deflation in electronics.

Deflation is GOOD. It rewards savers (who contribute labor to the economy in exchange for a shiny, where the economy takes their saved labor and invests it in capital goods, like factories), and encourages the use of one's own money as capital rather than borrowing to spend. Absent the occassional government intervention during wartime, the 1800's in the US were a perfect example of this. We went from being a backwoods hillybilly nation to a metropolitan near superpower, and all during a slight, yet persistent deflation.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[tmosley]

So you're saying that gold never circulated under a gold standard?

What are you smoking?

Your "tokens" WILL circulate, but only at the correct price. If a token is worth two goats instead of one, but sellers of goats demand a whole token in exchange, you will sit on the token until you find a more reasonable seller. If you don't find one, then you will eventually realize that maybe they aren't as valuable as you thought. Conversely, if you are selling goats, but want a token per goat, rather than a token per two goats, you will quickly find yourself out of business if everyone else is charging half as much.

People have this weird notion that money has some sort of intrinsic value beyond what we assign to it. It doesn't. You can't stick a gold coin in the ground and expect two goats to pop out. It is simply a medium of exchange. If your tokens are made of gold, well, gold is hard to come by, and it isn't used up, so over time, the supply becomes very steady. It doesn't decay, so people can hold on to it if they want to, and buy something later. All this business about "hoarding" hurting the economy is only in your head (and in the heads of the witch doctors in charge of our economy). "Hoarding" gold only means that you have provided some good or service to the economy. If you got a bit of silver for a fish, and sat on it the rest of your life, then someone got a free fish, because you provided a good to the economy without consuming anything in return. The economy will take that free bit of food, and use it to feed someone who is, say, building a factory, allowing him to work longer, rather than having to work a half day, then run out and catch his own fish. Put enough small contributions like this together, and you get a factory out of the deal. Said factory can produce more and better goods for said fisherman, so he can now trade his silver for more goods than if he had simply turned around and spent it. This is how economies grow. Consumer spending does NOT grow an economy, it merely destroys savings. This is exactly why we are going from being the number one nation in the world to being a middling empire, all under the watch of the "spend more on consumption" crowd.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[tmosley]

Who watches the money managers? What's to stop them from printing more for themselves, or for their pet projects? What do you do when all that printing exhausts all of the real goods that exist in society?

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[lgw]

Gold often didn't circulate under a gold standard, and economies (and sometimes countries) collapsed as a result. When the government starts minting "goldish" coins (and all governments eventually debase the currency), people hoard their gold coins and the amount of currency in circulation drops dramatically, sometimes to the point where it's really hard to do business day-to-day, and large projects become effectively impossible.

Also, the government can't increase the amount of gold in circulation without acquiring tons of gold to mint, so the economy can stagnate simply because the monetary cost of increasing the money supply is too high.

Fiat currencies really are better - they let a competent central bank do it's job, and the alternatives do nothing to stop the government from debasing the currency anyhow.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[sjs132]

But it is not just a brick of shiny metal. you can form it into anything you want. The industrial needs of our society will keep it at some cost, not to mention the basic jewelry that people have. Even 10k gold is still gold. (Not by much, but it is....)

So there may still always be a value to it, but provisions will be more valuable.

Re:If we buy one with the magic chocolate ticket

[tmosley]

You have things exactly backwards. The problem was that governments wanted to spend more money than they had. They can do that with fiat currencies, but the result is always and in 100% of cases a collapse of said currency, and often brutal revolution. The US dollar has been fully fiat for 40 years. The longest a fiat currency has lasted in known history is 60 years. What does that tell you?

I know what it tells me--don't save in fiat. It is nothing more than a tool for the government and/or non-governmental entities to steal from you.

Spelling nazi

[fastest fascist]

ATMs

Re:Spelling nazi

[Anonymous Coward]

how much is "35 bullion"

Re:Spelling nazi

[musicalmicah]

how much is "35 bullion"

Lots of soup.

Arbitrage?

[Anonymous Coward]

The giant gold dispensing ATM's will monitor the market conditions for gold every 10 minutes in order to reflect spot price changes as they occur.

Isn't that an opportunity for arbitrage? Gold doesn't change price every ten minutes exactly, so if there's a spike in the right direction, buy before the ATM updates its prices...

Re:Arbitrage?

[TheKidWho]

Better yet, hack into the network to make it think the gold is 20-40% lower in cost.

Re:Arbitrage?

[AltairDusk]

Only if you have an expedient means of selling the gold while the price remains higher. Too bad the machines won't buy and sell, all you'd have to figure out is a real-time price feed to your smartphone then camp out next to the ATM.

Re:Arbitrage?

[petermgreen]

And hope that
1: it doesn't go down again before you can sell it
2: the increases were significant enough that you can still make a profit after any relavent fees.

Re:Arbitrage?

[Locke2005]

I suspect the markup charged by the owners of the machines would far exceed any short term fluctuations in gold price. The real target market for these is people about to file bankruptcy who haven't maxed out their credit cards yet...

Re:Arbitrage?

[Joebert]

I'm guessing golds not as easy to get rid of as it seems. Chances are these guys stockpiled tons of gold while the price was closer to $400 an ounce than $1300 an ounce and now they're having a tough time getting rid of it all, so they're trying to dime-bag it out to the public.

Re:Arbitrage?

[camperdave]

Just hack into the machine with an axe and take the gold.

Re:Arbitrage?

[Vectormatic]

Better yet, hack into the network to make it think the gold is FREE

makes moe sense to me this way...

Re:Arbitrage?

[vlm]

The real target market for these is people about to file bankruptcy who haven't maxed out their credit cards yet...

Clawback unless you wait six months. Doesn't work that way.

Real target is people who've obtained someone else's CC. Divorcing wife, thief (but I repeat myself?), etc.

Re:Arbitrage?

[Anonymous Coward]

if your already manipulating the machine why not just make it empty the whole gold container instead of you giving them your account number etc by doing a legit transaction ?
afaik most ATMs run windows of some sort so rooting one should be fairly easy once you are on the network

Re:Arbitrage?

[digitalunity]

I concur. This is for thiefs to convert stolen credit cards into untraceable currency.

Most people do not want to buy gold as an investment. There's just a vocal minority of people who think it's a great investment and speculators are pushing the price up. The gold bubble will collapse, as it always does and people will lose their asses. Thing about gold is it isn't really in short supply, comparatively speaking. There are other precious metals that are in much shorter supply.

Re:Arbitrage?

[Fred IV]

Sometime soon in America..."I got gold. I got gold. Yeah, what kind of gold do you want? I got yellow gold. I got white gold. 18 carat? Yeah, that's all right...but this 24 carat stuff from Germany is real, real, real good stuff. You'll know where that extra money went when you need it. I got gold. Gold here. Get your gold."

Re:Arbitrage?

[Wonko the Sane]

Chances are these guys stockpiled tons of gold while the price was closer to $400 an ounce than $1300 an ounce and now they're having a tough time getting rid of it all, so they're trying to dime-bag it out to the public.

Exactly.

Don't be dumb and buy anything when it is near historically-high levels. You'll only be the "greater fool" that allows those people who bought near the lows and rode the price up to cash out just before the price collapses.

Re:Arbitrage?

[DrXym]

Isn't that an opportunity for arbitrage? Gold doesn't change price every ten minutes exactly, so if there's a spike in the right direction, buy before the ATM updates its prices...

Except that the dispenser most likely calculates the price as market price + obscene markup. You'd have to cause a huge spike in the market and then employ a gang to simultaneously buy up gold from all the ATMs at the cheaper price and somehow prolong the spike long enough to sell your bullion at the raised price in order to benefit.

I think it would be easier to hire yourself a commodity trader to do all of the above and forget about the ATM entirely.

Re:Arbitrage?

[siride]

You have an awesome UID.

Re:Arbitrage?

[russotto]

Don't be dumb and buy anything when it is near historically-high levels. You'll only be the "greater fool" that allows those people who bought near the lows and rode the price up to cash out just before the price collapses.

Certainly that's common sense advice, but if you'd bought gold at the historically high level of $1000/oz last year, you'd be doing quite well now.

Sometimes prices really aren't cyclical, and sometimes the cycles are quite long.

That said, I'm not buying gold. And I certainly see no reason for gold prices not to be cyclical, aside from a possible impending total crash of the world's economies. In which case gold will go up a lot more shortly before euros and dollars become worthless -- but shortly thereafter, you'll be wishing you bought food and ammo instead, and if your gold was on paper rather than holding up your mattress, you won't have it anymore anyway.

Re:Arbitrage?

[Syberz]

Speaking on which, who even buys physical gold at market prices?

If it's worth 1300$/ounce on the market, who will offer you that for each bar you have stockpiled?

The jewelry store? Doubt it.
Cash 4 Gold? Lolz
Put it on Craigslist? Someone's getting robbed...

Re:Arbitrage?

[InfiniteWisdom]

There are other precious metals that are in much shorter supply.

Moreover, gold has very little inherent value. It has some industrial uses but the demand for those things isn't anywhere close to justifying the price of gold. Unlike other precious metals like platinum, the price of gold is driven almost entirely by speculation. The idea that gold is less arbitrary than fiat currency is pretty misguided, in my opinion.

Re:Arbitrage?

[kenj0418]

[Trade] Looking for a rogue in NYC to unlock gold machine. Will tip. PST

Re:Arbitrage?

[igxqrrl]

A gold broker. They're quite easy to find. In Portland, I've used AJPM: http://www.ajpm.com/gold-bullion.html They have a spread of about 0.5%, which doesn't strike me as too bad.

Re:Arbitrage?

[igxqrrl]

Oops, the spread is actually 5%, not 0.5%. Still considerably better than less savory transaction methods.

Re:Arbitrage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Work smarter not harder. Just wait near buy with a ski mask and handgun. It is a ground floor investment in a growing vertical market.

Re:Arbitrage?

[Lord Ender]

If they had had this vending machine technology in the 1920s, they would have been rolling out stock certificate vending machines in 1929.

Gold does not pay dividends. Gold does not have buy-backs. Gold can't be rented out for cash flow. It is traded purely on speculation. And like all speculative bubbles, it will crash. If history is any guide, the crash will come shortly after the mainstream press starts highlighting it, and the common schmucks start buying in.

Fox News is our mainstream press. Vending machines with 1g pellets make it available to those schmucks.

In the next year or two, I expect gold to get cut in half. It could rip before the tear, so I have closed all my long and short positions in the stuff. Stay the hell away from it: that's my advice.

Re:Arbitrage?

[Anonymous Coward]

i could barely hear you over his cock in your mouth

Re:Arbitrage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Moe? KAWAII!!! desudesudesudesudesu...

Re:Arbitrage?

[Anonymous Coward]

if you'd bought gold at the historically high level of $1000/oz last year, you'd be doing quite well now.

Not if you bought it from goldline.

After I made the purchase, I finally did my homework and found that the coins I had purchases for $318 each could be bought for $208 - $218 each on other sites. I spend over $5000 to get coins worth $3520 at most. As others have pointed out over a 30% mark up.

At best your $1000/oz gold that you bought at 30+% markup just might be breaking even.

35 bullion?

[SharpFang]

It's spelt billion.
And 35 billion ATMs is rather much for a start-up, and more than current market demand...
oh gawd, there will be more of these than McDonalds and Starbucks... ;)

Re:35 bullion?

[Wocka_Wocka]

It's spelt billion.

This article has nothing to do with grains!

Re:35 bullion?

[Supp0rtLinux]

Time to hit up dictionary.com. Bullion is a term for currency in raw form. Ever seen a pirate movie? Perhaps heard a phrase about "gold bullion". They're installing 35 gold bullion machines, not 35 billion of them. You should learn what words mean before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total fool.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bullion
1. gold or silver considered in mass rather than in value. 2. gold or silver in the form of bars or ingots. 3. Also called bullion fringe . a thick trimming of cord covered with gold or silver thread, for decorating uniforms. 4. embroidery or lace worked with gold wire or gold or silver cords.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullion#Bullion

Gold bullion would be coins made of gold. Therefor, 35 bullion machines would be 35 machines that dispense coins minted from precious metals.

Re:35 bullion?

[bsDaemon]

You just got woosh-served.

Re:35 bullion?

[Abstrackt]

You should learn what words mean before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total fool.

You should learn what a joke looks like before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total fool.

Re:35 bullion?

[OzPeter]

It's spelt billion.

Never spoken with a Kiwi have you?

Re:35 bullion?

[Zarf]

Will they dispense other kinds of bullion other than 35?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullion#Bullion

Gold bullion would be coins made of gold. Therefor, 35 bullion machines would be 35 machines that dispense coins minted from precious metals.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly he misspelled Bouillon. These machines will dispense 1, 5, and 10 gram blocks of delicious condensed beef or chicken stock.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's spelt billion.
And 35 billion ATMs is rather much for a start-up, and more than current market demand...
oh gawd, there will be more of these than McDonalds and Starbucks... ;)

Actually bullion is correct... the term is "Gold Bullion", and I would assume that they are targeting having 35 gold bullion machines, not 35 billion gold machines, seeing as how there are only 6 billion or so people in the entire world.

Re:35 bullion?

[grandseer]

Spelled is spelled spelled.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

God damn, you're a fucking idiot.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

With the US population at around 300 million, that would make roughly 100 ATMs per person. That figure surely can't be right.

Re:35 bullion?

[Corporate Drone]

no, no, no! 35 billion is exactly the appropriate number! Didn't you think security issues would be the downfall of this idea? Well... what better a way to get around the possibility of being attacked after buying gold... than to place one in every home in North America?!?!?!

Re:35 bullion?

[VJ42]

It's spelt billion.

This article has nothing to do with grains!

That's how us Brits spell "spelled": http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spelt

Re:35 bullion?

[nschubach]

Knowing my luck (and vending machine prices) they will be the price of gold per ounce as well.

Re:35 bullion?

[Vectormatic]

Tried it once, but it kept ignoring me, i ate it out of spite..

*BA-DUM TSSSSH*

i'll be here all night etc..

Re:35 bullion?

[goodmanj]

I hear those 35 bullion ATMs will be repaired and maintained by 4 Brazilian technicians.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

No it isn't -

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spelt

Just because your ignorant puritan ancestry couldn't spell doesn't mean we have to conform to your bastardisation of our language.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Spelt is spelt spelt. Learn some English you dirty American.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

You should learn what a joke looks like before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total fool.

You should learn what a fool looks like before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total joke.

Re:35 bullion?

[snspdaarf]

Will they dispense other kinds of bullion other than 35?

Chicken?

Re:35 bullion?

[rossdee]

The tern Kiwi has a number of meanings
1) A flightless bird with a long bill, very endangered

2) Short form of Kiwifruit, (originally called Chinese Gooseberry

3) the currency of NZ (Kiwi dollar)

4) A person born and raised in New Zealand - eg Peter Jackson, Lucy Lawless , Sir Edmund Hillary and Temuara Morrison

Re:35 bullion?

[WED Fan]

35 machines that dispense bullion. Context! Comprehension! Did you go to school in California?

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if you're a barely literate American.

Re:35 bullion?

[Vectormatic]

and how many meanings does the term "whoosh" have?

Re:35 bullion?

[Wocka_Wocka]

I realize that it is a proper spelling of the past tense of spell. I'm not allowed to make a joke based on words, but the parent is?

Re:35 bullion?

[krnpimpsta]

You should learn what words mean before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total fool.

You should learn what a joke looks like before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total fool.

You should learn what a fool looks like before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total joke.

You should joke with a fool look-a-like before you correct people as it just makes you joke like a fool.

Re:35 bullion?

[Beorytis]

spelt billion.

Don't you mean "spelt bouillon"?

Re:35 bullion?

[Beorytis]

4 Brazilian technicians.

who will pilfer the gold and leave it to their Brazilian heirs.

Re:35 bullion?

[Jogar the Barbarian]

Good grief, Americans spend ~35 boullion dollars on health care products annually, and Europeans still think we're "dirty"? Have you even BEEN to London lately?

Re:35 bullion?

[FiloEleven]

You should fool with a joke-a-like before you correct people as it just makes you learn like a look.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

HAHAHAH You are so fucking stupid man.

Re:35 bullion?

[zmollusc]

Spelled may well be spelt spelled, but spelt is spelt spelt.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's spelled "bullion" as in "gold bullion". They want to install 35 machines that dispense "bullion" this year, and have several hundred up and running by next year.

Re:35 bullion?

[Apocryphos]

You should people with a like-a-like before you joke people as it just fools you like a learn

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever seen a pirate movie?

No, I buy all my movies.

Re:35 bullion?

[Anonymous Coward]

You should learn what words mean before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total fool.

You should learn what a joke looks like before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total fool.

You should learn what a fool looks like before you correct people as it just makes you look like a total joke.

You should joke with a fool look-a-like before you correct people as it just makes you joke like a fool.

And as everyone knows, if you joke like a fool, you look like a joke, foo'.

Re:35 bullion?

[Hikaru79]

I honestly can't tell if you're joking, but just in case... bullion means a big chunk of precious metal.

Re:35 bullion?

[VJ42]

I realize that it is a proper spelling of the past tense of spell. I'm not allowed to make a joke based on words, but the parent is?

The spelling is a chiefly non-American one, I didn't realise it was a joke and thought (given the number of spelling and grammar nazis on /.) you were genuinely trying to correct him. My Apologies.

Re:35 bullion?

[AgentSmith]

OK. I must do this.

In Soviet Russia, joke fools you!

Re:35 bullion?

[Hognoxious]

I don't think stocks are a good investment right now, though they do have the advantage that they're fairly liquid.

Re:35 bullion?

[Hognoxious]

Sounds like a bargain compared to HP printer ink.

Re:35 bullion?

[Hognoxious]

1) A flightless bird with a long bill, very endangered

No surprise - it seems GP keeps bloody chomping the poor little buggers.

That's the ones who escape being made into boot polish.

Re:35 bullion?

[Hognoxious]

Americans spend ~35 boullion dollars on health care products annually, and Europeans still think we're "dirty"? Have you even BEEN to London lately?

You clearly haven't - there aren't any Europeans there.

Re:35 bullion?

[Hognoxious]

Did you go to school in Germany?

Re:35 bullion?

[Hognoxious]

bullion means a big chunk of precious metal.

Shopkeeper! I'll take three gold bullions, please!

Re:35 bullion?

[Wocka_Wocka]

Appreciate the reply, and thanks for being civil. I find it funny too that you received a +5 informative. Sorry I'm bad at jokes.

I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Supp0rtLinux]

"... will monitor the market conditions for gold every 10 minutes in order to reflect spot price changes as they occur... " So... all I have to do is hack the market price calculations, buy my gold for $10.00 an ounce, then sell it for $300 an ounce. I give these guys less than a year before they're hacked into bankruptcy. Incidentally, I thought when we went off the gold standard (and silver standard) that this sort of thing actually became illegal. Granted, I could be wrong... I haven't had my morning coffee yet...

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[rlp]

then sell it for $300 an ounce

Uhhh, you haven't checked the price of gold in a while, have you?

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Millennium]

It was illegal for a time, but those laws were later repealed.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

How would it be illegal? It's a vending machine. It sells a material which has many uses in industrial applications, art and decoration.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[suso]

I think it was only illegal until the 70s or so, then the market was flooded with people who had been secret hoarding gold from earlier.

By the way, if you'd be willing to sell me your gold for $300 an ounce, then I'd be willing to buy it from you. In large quantities. Seriously.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[sjs132]

If he's willing to sell at 300 an oz, I'd even by at small quantity.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Schadrach]

You definitely missed his point:

"Hack the machine to get it to sell for $10 er ounce, sell at $300 per ounce so that you can dump your ill gotten gold very quickly for 30 times what you spent."

When it's effectively stolen gold, being able to dump it quickly is far more important than getting full market value out of it, just like any other stolen property.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[sjs132]

Government did it once to force dollars into the market, it can do it again. What it can't ban is gold coinage. That is why even modern gold coins have a value of the countries currency stamped in it. So if they outlawed gold again, the "value" is stamped on the coin. That is the value that you would get back from he government if you were forced to turn it in.

Lets see, a 50$ gold eagle (1oz) sells for 1368.+/- Currnt value of 1oz of gold on market is 1297 as of now. US Mint sells them at bullion price, so you'll never buy one for the $50 strike value. That is just a matter of semantics in case they ever recall them. You just gave the government $1318 profit.

The other reason to have coin instead of bar is for "numismatic" value, so that even if US dollar is nothing the collection value of the coin would be worth something more than just the gold. (At least one would hope.)

I understand Beck's POV on gold, but it is NOT for everyone (and he says so), and an ATM for it it more of a marketing twist than anything.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[hey]

Except the machine takes a cut.
(Or rather than company that owns the machine.)

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy crap, gold IS up!

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you could hack the machine, why would you have it sell gold to you at $10/oz? Why not just have it dispense all the gold it has and be on your merry way?

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[vlm]

then sell it for $300 an ounce

Uhhh, you haven't checked the price of gold in a while, have you?

This is the same guy whom thought gold ownership was illegal... not exactly the most up to date...

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're looking at the next bubble.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

these have been available overseas for quite some time. It seems to me that these would use similar security to ATM systems, which are very difficult to gain access to, and to the best of my knowledge have never been successfully hacked by spoofing the bank.

It seems a better way to go would to do it the old fashioned way- just steal the machine.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Attila Dimedici]

We have gone off the gold standard and selling gold to the public was ilegal. However, it is now legal to sell gold to the public. These are not really gold dispensing ATMs, these are gold dispensing vending machines that accept credit cards (and possibly debit cards).

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think that this is too likely...This stream is going to be fed to the machine, over a network from a trusted source (signed or encrypted) so you might as well try to figure out how to "hack" your bank account so the ATM believes you have gobs of moneys to withdrawal.

Plus, how much could you make? They'd probably put in a "weight per customer per day" limit to hedge against risk of any single large-quantity withdrawal.

However, unlike serialized bills, gold coins can be melted and re-poured to essentially make theft untraceable.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[vlm]

When it's effectively stolen gold, being able to dump it quickly is far more important than getting full market value out of it, just like any other stolen property.

My guess is serial numbered bars, and faxes to the usual places.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[geckipede]

So... all I have to do is hack the market price calculations, buy my gold for $10.00 an ounce, then sell it for $300 an ounce. I give these guys less than a year before they're hacked into bankruptcy.

My gods! You mean that they're going to be transmitting data with financial implications via computer? The fools!

Just imagine if normal ATMs or cash registers did anything so stupid, this "hacking" could allow somebody to ignore the whole system of money! I shudder at the very idea.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[sjs132]

yep, I was thinking of buy into the dips not hacking it, but really 10 minutes would be too long. Really, if they are connecting to a datalink then make it live monitor of price or don't do it at all.

Lots of firewall, otherwise you could just hack a transaction to buy and sell into an account that you then empty from 3rd location. No reason to handle physical transactions.

As for the Gold standard, the real folly of that is that it could be a standard. There is not enough physical gold to cover daily purchasing done by cash. Think of the tiny grains you'd have to have to buy a starbucks coffee, etc... The bullion back currency would be nice, but that will never happen because then it would be apparent that we DONT have the bullion anymore to back the currency.

(See Ron Paul... He has been pushing for an Audit from the Fed that houses the USA gold, and always shot down. Why? Hmmm....)

Remember, we are a FRACTIONAL banking system, so LOTS of money in play... LITTLE to back it up other than congress's word. Right.... ;)

The sad part is I remember hearing the commericals a few years ago and wish I bought more because back then "Gold anywhere near 600$ and oz is a bargin!" Argh!! cursed hindsight!

But, if the dollar ever does collapse, I'll be there with a burger stand accepting bullion from those that bought gold, for a hamburger. Because, I stocked up in cattle futures! mwahhhhaaaa!

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

then sell it for $300 an ounce

I'll give you $400.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Canazza]

Melt it down and turn it into gold rings.

Simple... if you can get a hold of a furnace.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Vectormatic]

However, unlike serialized bills, gold coins can be melted and re-poured to essentially make theft untraceable.

just a thought here, but wouldnt it be possible to "paint" a batch of gold with certain isotopes? put a certain combination/ratio of a very rare isotope in there, so you can identify gold as being processed by party X for batch Y sold to company Z

not sure how hard it is to purify gold though, but makings in physical appearance isnt the only trick in the book

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[AC-x]

Why not just hack a normal ATM instead
http://news.techworld.com/security/6943/atm-cashpoints-hacked-via-google/

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[tmosley]

Only when you look at the dollar part of that equation.

There is no such thing as a gold bubble, there is only gold as a currency, or gold that is not a currency. There was an aborted transition in 1980, and it looks like there is another attempt at a transition coming now.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah it did... however, these laws were eventually abrogated and then reversed.

However, it reasons that if there were indeed hyperinflation, similar laws could be passed in the future. That is: the same types of bans could be reinstated for the benefits of the powers that be if there were actually an "emergency".

For now, the powers that be can make a lot of $$$ selling gold at ridiculous markups

In a few years, they will probably do something that causes the price of gold to crater. In case of deflation, gold can become worthless.

Then, once the gold is possessed by the big guys again, that's when they'll push inflation through the roof.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[vlm]

It was never illegal to sell gold to the public. Jewelers, dentists, and electronic connector manufacturers would have pitched a fit.

What was illegal was ownership of non-artistic non-numismatic gold beyond a certain rather minimal level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Abstrackt]

Serious question, even if it's not the smartest, but isn't gold malleable enough that you could pound or buff the serial number out of a bar instead of melting it down?

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Rude Turnip]

I once watched an Italian documentary about a 10-ton ingot of gold being stolen from a moving train. The thief blew up the bridge and then used airbags to float the ingot away using a submarine. However, the gold was radio activated and they were able to follow the signal back to the thief's hideout, just as he was melting it down.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[vlm]

Serious question, even if it's not the smartest, but isn't gold malleable enough that you could pound or buff the serial number out of a bar instead of melting it down?

I can't imagine a legit coin dealer / jeweler buying a couple ingots that have been carefully defaced in that way. Admittedly it would make the cops job much harder.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Vectormatic]

wow, if the radiation from that thing was strong enough to be tracked from a large distance that must have been one hot piece of loot

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Sentrion]

Two words: CASH FOR GOLD. You mail whatever gold crap you have and they will pay you something for it (though nowhere near melt value).

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[IndustrialComplex]

I can't imagine a legit coin dealer / jeweler buying a couple ingots that have been carefully defaced in that way. Admittedly it would make the cops job much harder.

Unless you are going to try and source the gold through measuring radiation or minor trace elements (Which is not cheap or easy), gold bars are gold bars.

I have/had a couple ingots that I made from melting down old bits of broken jewelry. Twisted necklaces, broken settings, old dead water damaged watches, basic wedding bands.

Hire a trusted company to perform an analysis on the content, and you can find a buyer.

We did the same thing with Lead, and Aluminum. Though in general Lead and Aluminum people will simply purchase on your word as they are fairly obvious. The only things like lead and aluminum are much more expensive metals.

With the amount of crap that people throw away, I'm tempted to go back into the junk business. You just have to build up a network of scrap buyers, keep track of the market, and know which auction houses to go to when.

A large yard is helpful, since you can store stuff until your preferred time to sell it. It's weird how seasonal furniture is.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[DragonWriter]

Government did it once to force dollars into the market, it can do it again. What it can't ban is gold coinage.

Insofar as the federal government can ban, restrict, or punitively tax private ownership, possession, or trade in gold bullion, it can certainly just as well ban, restrict, or punitively tax private ownership, possession, or trade of gold coins, foreign or domestic.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[DavidTC]

What it can't ban is gold coinage.

Because of the magical exception not allowing them to ban gold coinage. Oh, wait, that doesn't exist, that's just part of the Goldline scam to sell gold at 100% markup.

'Oh, we're not selling gold bars, because we've invented a reason that the government might come take those. Take this gold coins instead.'...'Oh, did we forget to mention that, after all that talk of 'investment', that we were selling them at a huge markup, so gold would need to double or even triple in price before you could even make your money back? Oops.'.

So, to recap with actual facts instead of Goldline nonsense:

a) the government has to actually pay for stuff it takes, so would have to pay the actual price of gold at that point., like it did the first time. This actually is a constitutional premise, unlike the stupid 'coin' exception conmen have invented. No, it cannot pay the value stamped on the coins. Eminent domain requires paying the actual value of stuff, determined by a court. This is why the court struck down the first time...the currency devaluation had changed the value of the gold, and the government knew that would happen.

This doesn't mean the price will be what people want, the government will certainly pick a dip in the prices to set the price, and once the government starts the price of gold will go up even more, which the government will ignore, but there's no way in hell they could set the price to anything but the market value of the gold at some point.

b) if the government can confiscate gold bars, it can certainly do the same to gold coins. The exception was 'rare coins with intrinsical value', and was in the (overturned) law. I love the crazy idea that the US would go and confiscate gold, but somehow would put the same loophole in the new law, and, what's more, count all these 'Goldline' coins as 'rare'. You guys are asserting a loophole in a law that does not exist yet.

I understand Beck's POV on gold,

Well, it's not that hard to understand why most criminals operate. Money.

Beck is participating the Goldline scam because, duh, he gets a cut of it. Used to be a direct cut, now they're just keeping him on the air.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Syberz]

then sell it for $300 an ounce

Uhhh, you haven't checked the price of gold in a while, have you?

Shhhh! Shut up dude!

Uh, so yeah grandparent poster guy, I'll buy all the gold you've got at 300$ an ounce. No problem, no questions asked. Wink, wink.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

$300 an ounce? The discussion is about gold, iirc, not sativa...

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[tepples]

How would it be illegal? It's a vending machine.

How would a vending machine selling crack cocaine be illegal?

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

"... will monitor the market conditions for gold every 10 minutes in order to reflect spot price changes as they occur... "

So... all I have to do is hack the market price calculations, buy my gold for $10.00 an ounce, then sell it for $300 an ounce. I give these guys less than a year before they're hacked into bankruptcy. Incidentally, I thought when we went off the gold standard (and silver standard) that this sort of thing actually became illegal. Granted, I could be wrong... I haven't had my morning coffee yet...

Wow! That is just genius. You know, I actually have a better idea.

There are things called Banks that also deal with money and they have computers! All you have to do is hack the computer things with some codescriptworms and then you get free money! It's so easy.

Seriously though, these machines have already been implemented in Germany for sometime now and you think that they haven't realized that they better really lock it down?

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget hacking, just give me a forklift.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[sjs132]

Goldline scam? I don't get it. But I don't buy from goldline. I don't know why you have a hatred for someone you don't know, but typical in today's post progressive era.

Try Kitco.com or any of the other brokers that are out there. It has nothing to do with Glen Beck All coins are sold at a premium because of the intrinsic value. As soon as a coin is minted it carries some intrinsic value. Look at the state quarters. They are just quarters, but people collect them. THAT gives it intrinsic value. Are they worth more than .25$ US Dollars? Only to another collector. There are grades and dates and circulations, etc. These all go into the price of a coin. Mints change things beside the dates. Look at recent new dollar coin in USA. Again, still a dollar, but how many people use and spend them? 90% of population would squirrle the coin away because it is different. That is an instant debt free loan to the government, 1 dollar at a time. If you want gold, for gold reasons, buy bullion. Collectible coins are only a hedge because in the end you should still end up with a good coin collection if done properly. Even if the gold goes down. Bullion goes down the same as it goes up. Nothing collectable in bullion. (Well, not quite, some folks collect the individual commemorative mints that is common in silver bars, but not too much in gold.)

As for arguing facts, etc... You may have some of the "Eminent domain requires paying the actual value of stuff, determined by a court. " wrong. INAL... (WARNING!!!) But from my understanding, it was FAIR value, not ACTUAL value. And it applied to REAL PROPERTY, not "STUFF". Just like during a war they can confiscate any supplies they want and leave you a piece of paper I-O-U until settled later. Besides, the definition of FAIR VALUE is a gray term. For example, My family had a piece of property that it owned for investment reasons for 18+ years. We paid taxes on the land, cut some hay off of it, but other than that it was behind an airport that wanted to expand and next to a major highway. The county government started bragging about taking it by eminent domain and put an article in the newspaper about what the value was and never asked us. The family already had a contract for the sale of the property much higher than the county government wanted to pay. It was our "FAIR" value, but not theirs. In the end we finished the sale and the new owner promptly stuck a for sale sign on the property at 2 or 3 times amount paid. He thought that the court would force the county to pay his amount. In the end the county walked away because judge said the fair value was the value that just fairly reached between the two parties. Too high for the county and too low for the new owner... My mother walked away happy from the private sale, and then the market crashed and we really counted ourselves lucky.

Ok... I digressed. The point is that there will not be a judgment for every person that has a gold coin. IF (BIG IF...) it ever came down to it, it would be a hard locked price per oz set by the government on gold just like 1934 when it was locked in at 35$ per oz (!!!! Wish I had some of it back then -- Oh, yep, wasn't alowed unless it was collectable or special permit for artistic or industrial use!) http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/curency/goldmarketprice.htm

Why would they leave the loophole? Dunno, maybe to keep their own collections intact? There is REAL intrinsic value to the coins if you ever actually held one. Last years buffalo or a Canadian Maple leaf.. Beautiful coins. My current favorite is the Australian Silver Koala, Gilded edition. So cute...

BTW, today it is currently at $1308, up from 1294. yep, only $14 from yesterday, but it was a push through the overhead limit that everyone worries about. There may be a drop as some folks will sell to take some profit. That will cause the market to drop a bit as it reabsorb

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[sjs132]

Some bullion heist in the UK a number of years ago did this... The downfall was that they had TOO MUCH gold to process. They would melt it in with other scrap to LOWER the karat value. They then sold it to various local merchants and jewelers. I seem to remember that only one person was caught with a back yard type smelter and most of the gold gone and unaccounted for. Don't recall how it turned out, it was one of the tv specials on history or discovery channels and I think I fell asleep. :(

Yep, When it comes down to it, The gold in your wedding band could of at one time been in a Mayan tomb through plundering and melting is no longer distinguishable from any other gold unless newly mined and controlled minting.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[DavidTC]

Try Kitco.com or any of the other brokers that are out there. It has nothing to do with Glen Beck All coins are sold at a premium because of the intrinsic value. As soon as a coin is minted it carries some intrinsic value.

I don't know why so many people assumed I am stupid, but I'm not calling 'intrinsic value' goddamn markup. That is not what 'markup' is. I know most coins have a value on top of the gold.

Goldline sells gold coins at an average markup of 90% of the value of the gold coin, all the way up to 208%. Not the value of the gold, they're selling them for 90% above what anyone will pay for the coins, which is about 75% more than you could buy the coins from anyone else even without shopping around

And, of course, they don't tell anyone this. You call and they quote the price of gold, and talk about how it goes up, and that you should buy it in coins because (somehow they magically know that) when the government comes to 'steal your gold', the government going to stupidly not notice for decades that people have put gold in 'coins' that aren't really worth much at all, and not take that gold.

And then they sell you coins where they manage not to mention that, when they were were talking about buying $100 worth of gold, you're now only buying $50 worth of coins (And only $40 worth of gold.)...for $100 dollars.

Why would they leave the loophole? Dunno, maybe to keep their own collections intact?

Firstly, it's not 'leave' the loophole, it would require putting the old loophole in a new law.

Secondly, 'their own'? You think the government would otherwise be forced to turn in gold coins to themselves? Huh?

If you're talking about the rich, I assure you, they can keep their collections out of the country anyway, and they're not collecting rinky gold coins that are worth twice as much as the gold in them...they're collecting coins worth a hundred times the gold in them, what the loophole is actually supposed to protect, and not what Goldline is selling. If need be, they'll set a specific ratio, where the value has to be X times the value of the gold to be exempt.

But from my understanding, it was FAIR value, not ACTUAL value.

Fair value is supposed to be the actual market value. Property appraisals are really fucked up...people are always trying to game them one way or another, and there's a lot of political nonsense there keeping them high or low for different reasons. The 'value' used for eminent domain of real estate is always nonsense, and if you want to complain about that, go ahead.

However, gold has a value. A very specific, world-wide, well tracked value. There's no way in hell they could get away with assigning any other value. They might lock the value at a market low point, and get away with that, but it's going to be some actual market rate at some actual point after the law is passed. (If they're smart, they'll lock it at the rate the moment the bill passes, as it will just go up from there.)

Ironically, this means buying gold coins with intrinsic value is amazingly stupid as a henge against this, as those do have a debatable value, and the government will probably figure out how to lowball it to close to the value of the gold. Whereas people who bought actual gold and just gold get paid off the full value, because the government can't fiddle with that.

Thus producing an object lesson in 'Why not to listen to idiots'.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[sjs132]

Actually dude, YOU brought up the Goldline thing... I tried to tell you I don't know about goldline and don't use them. Anything beyond that is your own issue with them. If you want to argue and feel superior then fine, find a mirror.

The whole thing seems to started because I said the goverment can make a law to take it away... You seemed to think I was encuraging Goldine. But I had no mention of them, nor have I ever used them, nor do I have any idea what their selling practice is. When it comes down to it, a fool and there money will soon be parted. If that is by Goldline or the local pot seller or the local Casino is of no matter as long as the fool is left happy. If they are dishonest about it then someone will take them to court, etc... Otherwise, Caveat emptor

Yes, by "leave' a loophole I was mistaken that they would put it in a "new law"... I will concede that point, but my point is that they did it in the past, they could easily do it again. You are correct that there is NOT a current law that limits it in this way. Of course, I'm sure you or someone else would love to point out that "Past Performance not a true indicator of Future results" But I like to learn from history and give it a wide berth, not ignore it.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. Gold is completely different. Its value only ever goes up, just like real estate.

Re:I see a hack waiting to happen...

[DavidTC]

The entire 'buy coins, not bars' is a scam promoted by the 'scam gold industry' to hide their absurd markup. (The 'scam gold industry' vs. the actual legit gold trading industry.)

'Goldline' is just the most obvious member of that industry. But it has a lot of members, and it has a lot of people it has convinced, like you, that somehow gold coins are a better investment than just buying gold, which is total utter nonsense.

You don't know it, I'm sure, but the entire premise of your 'They can't ban is gold coinage' is a lie, intended to get people to 'invest' in gold coins that a) are being sold to them at absurd prices, and b) wouldn't be exempt even if Congress hypothetically passed the same law, because that's not the sort of rare coins anyone is talking about. And, of course, c) nonsense, because when they 'confiscate' gold, they actually just buy it from people at the gold list price, which means, duh, you're better off if all the value of it is the gold, and not some added value from collectiblity.

I know you're not one of the liars, but you've listened to them, or to other people who've listened to them. The entire premise that the US government somehow can't take coins is utterly wrong.

Silly...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this sound silly to anyone else?

Re:Silly...

[Alcimedes]

Dunno, I currently don't actually own any gold. Might be kind of cool to have a few weight units of gold around the house.

You'd really pass up the opportunity to own some actual gold bullion? I don't think I could. :)

Re:Silly...

[jaweekes]

It does to me for several reasons. How long before one of the machines is stolen? And why would anyone want the physical gold? It's not like you can purchase anything with pure gold now.

I also don't know why anyone would buy gold at this price. I always thought the mantra was "Buy low, sell high", so I have no idea why anyone would buy gold when it's almost $1300 per ounce, as I don't see it getting much higher (although I could be really wrong).

Re:Silly...

[vtcodger]

***Does this sound silly to anyone else?***

Well, I HAVE been wondering how one asks "What could possibly go wrong?" in German.

Google tells me "Was koennte schief gehen?" but I wonder if that isn't a bit literal.

Yet another problem

[dkleinsc]

Why don't they put up a giant sign labeled "Rob This Machine"?

Re:Yet another problem

[ComaVN]

How is it diffferent from a regular ATM, apart from the loot being less liquid?

Re:Yet another problem

[Joebert]

There's probably not much difference between these and normal ATM machines. I bet these machines aren't going to have much if any more valuables inside them than existing ATM machines in each area.

Re:Yet another problem

[kestasjk]

Not very, but some ATMs will ink the cash if they detect a theft

Re:Yet another problem

[SydShamino]

The loot also weighs significantly more. No one is going to be picking one of these up and putting it in the back of their truck, at least without a seriously-large fork lift. (Depending on how much gold they stock in each machine, of course.)

Re:Yet another problem

[kinnell]

How is it diffferent from a regular ATM, apart from the loot being less liquid?

Gold is untraceable and you can convert it to hard currency anywhere in the world. Large quantities of cash are very hard to spend unless you have a money laundering scheme.

Re:Yet another problem

[maxwell demon]

ATM machines

ITYM automatic ATM machines.

Re:Yet another problem

[drsquare]

It's been known for ATMs to be stolen by digging them out of the wall with a JCB.

Gold in your pocket is safe.

[tsalmark]

It is perfectly safe to walk around the mall with a few ounces of gold in your pocket, unless people know you have a few ounces of gold in your pocket, in which case you are about to be mugged. I like the idea of buying gold at a kiosk, it would make for a fun spur of the moment gift, but I'd be too afraid to be seen making a withdrawal to actually use it.

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[NevarMore]

I live in a state with a large number of concealed carry permits. Forceful robberies are becoming less common.

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[Nocuous]

I live in a state with a large number of concealed carry permits. Forceful robberies are becoming less common.

What state is that? I'd be curious to see whether "forceful robberies" are actually becoming less common or if you're passing on anecdotal observations, whether the decline is statistically significant, if it correlates with issuance of said permits, if there's a case for causation, rather than just correlation, and whether incidents of "oh god! i shot my friend Timmy with daddy's gun!" are becoming more common.

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[MarcQuadra]

And I live in one where you can't carry a gun unless you get a letter -from- City Hall and the state AG's office. As far as I know, none have been issued in a long time.

Crime here dropped like a rock in the past few years, too. Nothing to do with guns.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/ricrime.htm

There are three factors I think are at work:

1. Legal abortion and widespread subsidized contraception in the 1980s prevented the people most likely to rob me from existing in the first place.
2. Credit is still easy to get. It's easier and less risky to just 'put it on the credit card' than it is to steal. It's far less detrimental to have a bankruptcy than a felony conviction on your record. You can rack up $30k in debt before people start coming after you, try robbing people and you'll be caught in a few weeks.
3. We have a huge number of people who are already locked-up. They're not robbing me. The government is robbing me to keep them incarcerated, but that's not the point of the discussion.
4. We have more cops than ever. If I stand at the end of my street at midnight, police passes of my block average one every 4 minutes. Response time when I have called has been less than two minutes for one car to arrive, three minutes for three cars.

I'm not advocating any of those things one way or another, just pointing them out.

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[tater86]

I would guess that "I shot my friend Timmy with daddy's gun" incidents are down, now that daddy's gun spends more time in his waistband and less time in the drawer with his special balloons. I would like to know if there's an increase of "Daddy shot himself in the jimmy, now there won't be any more Timmys."

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[NevarMore]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime - Very good book on the topic. Suggest getting it from the local library.

Canda vs US - http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?s=fbi+crime+statistics

Please challenge these if you see fault. I am very pro-gun, but I do realize that I need to examine my own beliefs from time to time.

I often find it frustrating to engage in a debate about gun rights because of the double-speak and manipulated statistics from both sides. The NRA has pissed me off just as much as the VPC.

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[NevarMore]

1. Agreed.
2. Disagree. Credit is very hard to get in the segments of society that tend to commit crime. Why do you think check cashing places and "buy here pay here" car lots and Rent-A-Centers are so prevalent and still in business? Because a lot of people can't get credit cards or bank loans. Yes those are sources of credit, but its on really shitty terms.
3. Locking up first time offenders sends them to a place where they get to learn the trade from the best. Well, second best. They did get caught after all.
4. A 2 minute response time is impressive, however most of the country doesn't have that luxury. I have the utmost respect for police, fire, and ambulance crews but when seconds count, they are minutes away. Having help nearby does not excuse a person from being able to handle their own emergencies. Far better to file a report in the morning on an "almost" than to have to call 911 on a "happened".

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[MarcQuadra]

a lot of people can't get credit cards or bank loans. Yes those are sources of credit, but its on really shitty terms.

If 'terms' were an issue, then the recent financial crisis wouldn't have happened. These days, if Johnny Switchblade wants a couch, it's a lot easier to get one from Rent-a-Center and dodge payments than it is to rob people. One outcome, they takes their couch back. The other, you go to prison for five years (especially if you're on probation/parole for something already). As 'hard' as it is to get even 'bad terms', credit is still preventing crime.

Locking up first time offenders sends them to a place where they get to learn the trade from the best.

Agreed, but they're not robbing me while they're locked up. This is why longer sentences -do- work, even though I would like to see them eliminated. Locking up a petty thief for years at $50K/year doesn't make sense to me.

most of the country doesn't have that luxury.

Totally agreed, and I'm a big defender of Second Amendment rights. Just saying that the concealed or open carry laws might not be the deterrent factor they're made out to be. Even cities with tough gun control (where 'only the outlaws have guns') saw a huge drop in crime. You should be able to carry a gun because -you should be able to carry a gun-. As long as you're not hurting anyone, you could be carrying a gun, some heroin, and an open bottle of Jack for all I care.

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[Mab_Mass]

Personally, I found this review article to be very informative.

From the article:

...despite a large body of research, the committee found no credible evidence that the passage of right-to-carry laws decreases or increases violent crime... Some studies find that right-to-carry laws reduce violent crime, others find that the effects are negligible, and still others find that such laws increase violent crime.

The real trouble with gun control as an issue, from a scientific perspective, is that it is impossible to study it with a classic double-blind study. I'm sure that we'll see an explosion of posts here with a lot of anecdotal evidence that shows the issue one way or another, but in the end, I don't think that we will have a clear answer to that question.

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[pclminion]

When a robber is already holding you at gunpoint (he surprised you, right?) are you seriously going to reach behind your back/into your shirt to draw your weapon? He's going to blow you away, man.

OPEN carry is what deters such people. When selecting a target, the guy who obviously has a weapon on him is not high up on the list.

I just don't get the point of concealed carry. What is the point of carrying a weapon and hiding it? It loses all deterrence value.

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[ceswiedler]

I live in a major city in a state near yours. Homicides are becoming more common.

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[mjwx]

Canada vs US - http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/?s=fbi+crime+statistics

As this link pointed out, it's difficult to do an accurate study because Canada considers more crimes to be violent.

The best measurements are deaths by firearms (incl, accidents and suicide) as well as murder by firearms to be correlated with total murders (all per capita). These definitions dont leave much room for interpretation.

BTW, I'm pro gun ownership and pro gun restriction. I have no issue with anyone owning a firearm so long as you can prove you're of sound mind and know how to use/store the damn thing safely.

I often find it frustrating to engage in a debate about gun rights because of the double-speak and manipulated statistics from both sides.

I agree here, the extremists on both sides tend to polarise the discussion. Personally I dont believe more guns == less crime as there are too many other factors. As to gun crime, it's all about attitude, a bad gun culture leads to more firearm injuries/deaths where as a good gun culture leads to less. I feel that a bad gun culture is more of a problem then firearm availability in the US.

Re:Gold in your pocket is safe.

[NevarMore]

The best measurements are deaths by firearms (incl, accidents and suicide) as well as murder by firearms to be correlated with total murders (all per capita). These definitions dont leave much room for interpretation.

I have a problem with the broad "death by firearms" category. Whenever you have $BADTHINGS caused by $OBJECT its a sign that someone is trying to ban something or is missing the actual cause of the deaths. Some examples "Deaths caused by cars" versus "Deaths caused by intoxicated drivers". In the gun debate it's often used to inflate the gun death figures even though things like suicides would happen whether or not there were guns. Accidents with guns are a problem, its a device designed to put lethal holes in things and there isn't much margin for error, but for all the angst over gun deaths there is lots of low hanging fruit that we can pick to save lives.

I agree here, the extremists on both sides tend to polarise the discussion. Personally I dont believe more guns == less crime as there are too many other factors. As to gun crime, it's all about attitude, a bad gun culture leads to more firearm injuries/deaths where as a good gun culture leads to less. I feel that a bad gun culture is more of a problem then firearm availability in the US.

Its a classic 'one-percent' problem. Yes there are ass-wipes in the gun community whose favorite catch phrase is "Whut? It isn't loaded" followed up with a racist joke, but they are a small minority. The gun community at large works very hard to shut them up because we are responsible, safe, and generally quite polite. It's a challenge if you're active in a semi-private gun club, do you invite those people in and show them the right way to do things or do you boot them out to preserve your own reputation? It's like the small percentage of malware writers ruining the reputation of the entire Slashdot community.

Why?

[DurendalMac]

Seriously, why? If people want to invest in gold, they're generally going to buy it in larger lots than this. What's the point of selling gold in a vending machine when no one is going to take a gold coin as currency? This seems to be a solution in search of a problem. Not to mention I fully expect these to become big, fat targets for thieves...

Re:Why?

[OzPeter]

What's the point of selling gold in a vending machine when no one is going to take a gold coin as currency?

The idea is to make money .. for the people who make the gold dispensing ATMs. Its nothing more than a capitalistic response to a fear based environment.

Re:Why?

[tmosley]

You do know that there are gold dealers in this country, right? Eliminate the personnel cost, and the premiums will come down.

I guess filling consumer demand while reducing consumer costs and making a profit is evil in your world. Might I suggest you move to North Korea? I guarantee no-one is making any evil profits there.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, why? If people want to invest in gold, they're generally going to buy it in larger lots than this. What's the point of selling gold in a vending machine when no one is going to take a gold coin as currency? This seems to be a solution in search of a problem. Not to mention I fully expect these to become big, fat targets for thieves...

The suckers who listen to Glenn Beck are gonna love these things. My guess is these guys are gonna make huge profits.

Re:Why?

[the eric conspiracy]

Why would a thief prefer gold over cash? Cash and you are ready to go, wave a bunch of Gold around after an ATM theft and you will draw attention.

Depending on the buy/sell spread I could see myself using one of these machines to buy small amounts on a period basis. Dollar cost averaging is a good way to take risk out of buying a volatile commodity.

 

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the point of selling gold in a vending machine when no one is going to take a gold coin as currency?

The idea is to make money .. for the people who make the gold dispensing ATMs. Its nothing more than a capitalistic response to a fear based environment.

To which I say, kudos to them! The expedience of parting fools from their money will naturally reduce the number of fools by either eliminating them or forcing them to be a bit more educated in the future! Bravo! :-)

Re:Why?

[Rogerborg]

What's the point of selling gold in a vending machine when no one is going to take a gold coin as currency?

Hos, dwarves and Nazis. Statistically, in every room of 10 people, there's a ho, a dwarf and a Nazi (and sometimes they're even different people).

Re:Why?

[StikyPad]

Same reason cash4gold kiosks, pawn shops, and payday loan places exist: people are idiots. It's "uncool" to be financially responsible, but it's cool as shit to have a piece of gold in your pocket, purse, mouth, etc.

Re:Why?

[paulpach]

What's the point of selling gold in a vending machine when no one is going to take a gold coin as currency?

Because as the dollar continues to lose value against gold at roughly 20% in the last 5 years (actually more like 10 years but that is not displayed on that web site), anyone getting 1.75% interest on a CD or 2.5% on a T-bill is an idiot.

Given that the printing press at the FED is in overdrive, it is very likely that the dollar will accelerate its decline in the next few years. Every dollar printed, does not create purchasing power, it simply dilutes the purchasing power of all the existing dollars out there.

A lot of us are seeing the writing on the wall for the dollar. If the premium is low enough, I will be a regular customer of these machines

Re:Why?

[DurendalMac]

I didn't say the thieves would be especially smart. Gold has a certain allure to it, and a lot of the dimmer crooks will want it. Then they'll have a fun time trying to unload it and most likely get caught in the process. That or someone with connections will be able to successfully pull it off.

Re:Why?

[DurendalMac]

And it's a lot easier buying gold in larger quantities from dealers, not in tiny pieces from a vending machine.

Re:Why?

[Hatta]

This isn't for smart investors. This is for stupid people conned into thinking they are smart investors.

Re:Why?

[homer_s]

to a fear based environment.

I've been buying gold since it was at $600/ounce. You could be correct that the rise in prices is due to fear.
My theory has always been that the debt levels of nations are unsustainable and will lead to default and later, inflation. So far, I've been proved right. That does not mean I will be correct in the future.

But, the difference between people who buy gold and the people who ridicule them is that the people buying gold are putting their money where their mouth is. The people ridiculing them could do the same by shorting the gold market. The ones I've met in person seem reluctant to do this.

Re:Why?

[homer_s]

Seriously, why? If people want to invest in gold, they're generally going to buy it in larger lots than this.

They could. Most people would. But, the companies rolling out these ATMs are betting that *some* people will use these. They've been around for a couple of years now. And, since they're investing millions in this venture, I'm assuming they would have done some market research.
I doubt the people commentating about the wisdom of this venture on slashdot would have done any market research.

Re:Why?

[MarcQuadra]

If the machine can dispense gold, why not have it dispense pepper spray and/or handguns (where legal) while you're at it. You can allay economic -and- social fears at a one-stop station on your way to the Two Minutes Hate.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

In other words, people who actually listen to Glenn Beck's advise.

Re:Why?

[Red Flayer]

Given that the printing press at the FED is in overdrive, it is very likely that the dollar will accelerate its decline in the next few years. Every dollar printed, does not create purchasing power, it simply dilutes the purchasing power of all the existing dollars out there.

Why do you link to BASE but not M1 or M2? M2, in particular, is a better representation of the money supply, and if you look at M2, you'd see that it doesn't look so ridiculous (although there is high growth). BASE is going up very fast to offset the reduction from the non-BASE parts of the money supply...

Look, I understand that you have a position you want to push. But if you really understand the economics of the money supply, you know you're being disingenuous. If you don't truly understand the economics, then fine...

One more thing:

Because as the dollar continues to lose value against gold at roughly 20% in the last 5 years (actually more like 10 years but that is not displayed on that web site), anyone getting 1.75% interest on a CD or 2.5% on a T-bill is an idiot.

Sure, until the gold bubble bursts. A CD or a T-bill has a lot less risk than gold.

I'd say that anyone who puts all their investment into gold is an idiot. Diversification is extremely important.

Re:Why?

[SleazyRidr]

The last time this story came up (when they were only in Europe, not in the US) the vending machines were selling them at far greater than the market price. Purely for the gullible consumers, nothing an actual investor would want to touch with a 10-foot pole.

Re:Why?

[DavidTC]

No, this is for moderately intelligent people conned into thinking they are smart investors.

Stupid people 'invest' with Goldline, aka, purchase gold at huge markups that gold prices will never reach, or, at minimum, take a decade to reach.

Actual intelligent people who wish to invest in gold buy gold at an actual commodity broker, where there's no markup, just transaction fees that are well documented, and you can sell it easily the same way.

Re:Why?

[tmosley]

I don't know about that, having missed the article. You should know that actual, physical gold does trade at a great premium to an ounce somewhere in a 400 ounce bar held in some bullion repository, much like a loaf of bread trades for a premium over an equivalent amount of nutrition in a granary.

The smaller the amount of gold, the more it costs, because the assay costs are the same regardless of the size. Certain coins from national mints have guaranteed purity, and so trade at an even higher premium. American gold eagles regularly go for $100 more than the spot price for gold. You get the premium back when you sell it. Basically, it amounts to a couple of percent leverage, as the premium is usually a certain percentage of spot price, though it changes depending on supply and demand for a given type of bullion.

Re:Why?

[DerekLyons]

Seriously, why? If people want to invest in gold, they're generally going to buy it in larger lots than this. What's the point of selling gold in a vending machine when no one is going to take a gold coin as currency?

If these machines had been around during the last Presidential election cycle, they'd have made a mint off the Paulists. Which is the general idea.

Re:Why?

[blair1q]

If people want to invest in gold, they're generally going to buy it in larger lots than this.

It's a recognition that the people who did invest in gold have pretty much exhausted the field of sheep who listen to advertising and consider themselves investors, and are now taking advantage of the last untapped source of suckers for their pump-and-dump: the walk-by impulse buyer with not much cash in the bank.

Only a matter of time before the ROI on the scam drops, the huckstering stops, and everyone left holding the gold wonders what the fuss was all about. They start to sell, don't find the promised buyers, watchs the price drop, then drop, then drop, and then the panic sets in.

Re:Why?

[RightSaidFred99]

I like how you say "fear based environment" in an implied pejorative sense. In reality, fear is a very important survival instinct.

But I agree - you should fear nothing. Run up your credit cards. Urge higher tax rates. Nothing bad will happen, I'm sure. The value of the dollar can't possibly go down.

(Not that I own any gold or I'm running down the street screaming about the impending failure of the US, but a little diversification and fear is a wise thing.)

Re:Why?

[RightSaidFred99]

I find your point unintentionally hilarious. Tell me.. had those much derided "Paulists" bought gold during the last presidential how much money would they have made by now? Yeah, more than any investment you're likely to have picked.

Re:Why?

[DerekLyons]

I find your ignorance appalling. In the first place, there's no guarantee that gold will go up and up - it's cyclic. Second off, in your ignorance of the difference ('spread') between buy and bid - they'd have bought the gold above market back then and be selling it below market now. Between that and taxes, they'd make much less money than you think.

My investments are doing quite well thank you, but I'm in for the long haul not trying to beat the cycles. The former is how you make money, the latter is how you go broke.

Re:Why?

[gangien]

i really don't know, but i wonder what the difference is between a transaction fee and buying the physical stuff over spot.

Re:Why?

[RightSaidFred99]

There's no guarantee anything will go up. The simple fact is that no matter how right you think you are, reality contradicts you. The much derided gold-buyers are "right" simply because the numbers say they are right. If you'd mocked someone in 2008 for buying gold, you would have been simply wrong, no matter how much hand-waving you do.

Sure, you can make up a hypothetical case where they buy at a 10% markup and sell at a 10% below market, but what's the point of that?

Odds are we could come back in 5 years and the same will be true. I don't actually own any gold but I do find the mocking of a solid approach (if it's used as a part of a diversified portfolio) to fighting inflation to be a bit silly.

Sure, Gold could be in a bubble but it's simply it's as much of a bubble as US currency is going to turn out to be with this ridiculous spending and the emergence of the third world as economic powerhouses.

Re:Why?

[paulpach]

Given that the printing press at the FED is in overdrive, it is very likely that the dollar will accelerate its decline in the next few years. Every dollar printed, does not create purchasing power, it simply dilutes the purchasing power of all the existing dollars out there.

Why do you link to BASE but not M1 or M2? M2, in particular, is a better representation of the money supply, and if you look at M2, you'd see that it doesn't look so ridiculous (although there is high growth). BASE is going up very fast to offset the reduction from the non-BASE parts of the money supply...

The FED purposely stopped publishing the M3, so they are hiding much of the non-BASE parts of the money supply.

If you want, go with the True Money Supply as invented by Rothbard, which takes into account demand deposits and avoids double counts that the M3 does. You are right it is not quite as dramatic, but it is still telling. The BASE is what the FED produces essentially, at some point the fractional reserve will kick in and you will see the corresponding inflation of M3 and TMS.

One more thing:

Because as the dollar continues to lose value against gold at roughly 20% in the last 5 years (actually more like 10 years but that is not displayed on that web site), anyone getting 1.75% interest on a CD or 2.5% on a T-bill is an idiot.

Sure, until the gold bubble bursts. A CD or a T-bill has a lot less risk than gold.

They have been talking about the gold bubble since it was at 400, it is not even close to its peak in 1980 at $2000 adjusted for inflation. When people start saying gold can never go down just like they did with houses, that is when I will believe there is a bubble.

Quite to the contrary, T-bill are artificially expensive, propped up by a FED printing money to buy them, and chinese and japanese governments obsessed with buying them. But our deficit and obligations are just as bad or worse than Greece's. You want a bubble? we are living it, the T-bill bubble is the mother of all bubbles. Once it bursts, expect higher taxes (government can not borrow, so it must confiscate) and high inflation (government can not borrow, so it must print money). This incidentally is very bullish for gold.

Get this book if you want an entry level on how the economy works.

Buying from a vending machine is great for people like me. Getting gold from a dealer is a pain, they have high premiums, and you have to pay for shipping. A vending machine would hopefully eliminate some of the premium being paid for shipping and handling, as well as allow me to go locally.

Re:Why?

[Red Flayer]

Get this book if you want an entry level on how the economy works.

Sorry, you need to qualify that statement. Read that book if you want to read an Austrian view of how the economy works. There are conflicting ideologies in economics, as I'm sure you're aware, and it's disingenuous to state that book as a definitive introduction to the subject.

You want a bubble? we are living it, the T-bill bubble is the mother of all bubbles. Once it bursts, expect higher taxes (government can not borrow, so it must confiscate) and high inflation (government can not borrow, so it must print money). This incidentally is very bullish for gold.

The T-bill bubble may not burst. There are plenty of factors that can prevent a collapse of the T-bill, including inflation and economic growth in the US, among other things. WEre we to take an Austrian approach, the bubble would burst. Luckily, the economy is not governed by Austrians, so we can take action to prevent it.

The fundamental problem I have with the Austrian school is the boom-and-bust cycles Austrian economics does nothing to address. I believe it is imperative that we ameliorate those cycles in order to maintain prosperity for more people; boom and bust cycles lead to exacerbated wealth concentration at the top, which I believe is bad for society.

Now, back to the topic at hand:

Buying from a vending machine is great for people like me. Getting gold from a dealer is a pain, they have high premiums, and you have to pay for shipping. A vending machine would hopefully eliminate some of the premium being paid for shipping and handling, as well as allow me to go locally.

These machines have a 30% premium (at least the ones deployed in Germany). Far worse than a dealer. Why not trade in certificates if you want to do your business locally (well, via courier for certs) and reduce the s&h costs?

Re:Why?

[Red Flayer]

Sorry for second reply, I though it was important:

One more note about Schiff: there's a reason he's derided as "Dr. Doom". He's a media whore... and a business whore. He very vocally trumps up gold while holding gold. His analysis of the economy is also sometimes shaky... his brokerage clients lost bundles in 2008 due to his errant predictions of dollar weakening (the dollar got stronger in 2008) and foreign growth outpacing domestic growth (untrue for the regions he predicted this for in 2008). He also predicted gold would hit $2000 an ounce in 2009... it did not (barely got over $1200). He now predicts it will hit $5000 or $10,000 an ounce in the next 5 to 10 years... I don't buy that either. Don't put your stock in this guy's predictions.

Re:Why?

[the eric conspiracy]

Dimmer crooks will pretty much always in jail.

Re:Why?

[DavidTC]

Oh, if you know an actual dealer who's willing to sell at, say, 1% over spot, that's also a fairly smart investment, although having it in the market is safer physical security-wise. If you do very small amounts, dealers are better than brokers, whereas for large amounts it's the other way around. (Aka, if it's actually an 'investment' where you buy $5,000 a year, as opposed to speculation.)

But there are all sorts of ways to buy and sell gold.

Smart people end up losing less than 1% buying and 4% selling, by using brokers or legit dealers. There might be other ways too, damned if I know.

Unsmart people buy from these vending machines and lose 15%, and then sell to pawnshops or scam brokers and lose another 15%.

Idiots buy from Priceline and lose 50%, and then sell to 'Sell us your gold!' places and lose another 50%.

Only the first group of people are currently making any money, although speculation has shot gold prices up so fast the second group has made money on occasion.

Re:Why?

[Dread_ed]

"Its nothing more than a capitalistic response to a fear based environment."

Why should our current administration be the only ones to profit from their mantra of "Never waste a good crisis?" If its good enough for the president and his appointees its good enough for business!

In times of financial crisis

[VShael]

If memory serves, didn't the US government make the private ownership of gold illegal in times of severe crisis in the past?

Don't they have a precedent for seizing precious metals from their citizenry, without recompense?

Re:In times of financial crisis

[tmosley]

They did compensate people for seized gold. They just promptly devalued the dollars they paid for them with.

And considering the massive failure that was the last gold seizure (they only got 500 tons total), and the fact that we aren't on a gold standard, so they can devalue the dollar just fine as is, there is no need and little likelihood of future seizure of gold. Your retirement accounts will probably be nationalized long before your gold is seized.

Re:In times of financial crisis

[Joebert]

That was back before we had teenagers waving around AK-47 assault rifles on youtube.

Re:In times of financial crisis

[Gothmolly]

Only if they know about it. Which is why the wise don't buy their gold with credit cards.

Will we be able to trade furs for it?

[Sedated2000]

I've been playing Red Dead Redemption a lot. I've been dying for a chance to go to the store and barter for what I want with furs and gold pieces. I want to make the angry high school kid at Sonic take out his scales to measure the cost of my chili dog.

"Sell your gold for cash!" ads

[Allnighte]

Does anyone else remember those ads on TV that tried to get you to sell your excess gold for cash? I think it was about a decade ago.

Interesting how now that the price of gold is three times what it was 10 years ago*, they're trying to sell it back to us. And by interesting I mean not surprising. Those ads always seem sleezy to me. Some guy in his 50's with glasses on a wooden desk blabbing on for like 3 minutes about gold and why you should sell it.

Of course, I don't have any gold nor have I purchased any, so I can't really complain. And I could be totally wrong since I don't follow these kinds of things. Someone correct me if I am.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gold_price_in_USD.png

Re:"Sell your gold for cash!" ads

[aapold]

What do you mean "remember". Every day I drive past several dozen outfits that do this, complete with people holding giant signs saying "we buy gold" and pointing to local stores that do this. That business is still booming (at least enough to pay people to stand outside on the street hawking it). Radio and TV ads are also saturated with ads for this.

Re:"Sell your gold for cash!" ads

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey! Put all your unwanted gold in an envelope and drop it in the mail. I'm sure there's no chance it will get "lost" along the way.

Re:"Sell your gold for cash!" ads

[Vectormatic]

here in the netherlands we just started getting those adds on tv

the shaky bit is, you send them your gold (by regular snailmail even...), they determine its worth, and deposit the money in your account. They could be ripping people of hugely, not to mention the risk of the mail-people losing (or even stealing, the return envelopes are clearly marked) your stuff before it gets there.

I did use a "send us your phone and we give you money" service once, but they give you the value of your phone up-front, so they cant stiff you by bait-switching the value, so i knew what i was getting into.

Re:"Sell your gold for cash!" ads

[v1k]

>They could be ripping people of hugely What do you mean "could" be? It *is* a giant ripoff.

Current price

[Anonymous Coward]

$42/gram.

I'm not sure what is scarier; that someone thinks this will be a successful business, or that it might be?

All the talk-radio shows can agree on is that their advertisers would like to sell you gold.

ATM robberies up 5000%

[rshxd]

I can see it now!

Re:ATM robberies up 5000%

[BigSlowTarget]

Um no officer, I wasn't trying to steal any ATM. I just backed my pickup truck up to the machine because gold is so heavy you see. Well, yes I know it's inside the mall but the chain wrapped around it and hooked to my bumper is for security. Can't be too careful once you have a pickup truck full of gold you know...

Market penetration

[Zouden]

The company hopes to install 35 bullion machines in the United States this year

To put that in perspective, that's over a hundred machines per person, or 3.3 machines per square foot of land. Talk about agressive expansion!

Re:Market penetration

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize that a bullion machine is different than a billion machines right?

Re:Market penetration

[eth1]

COOL! That means there will be 6,662 machines in my house that I can figure out how to get open in private. I'll be RICH!

Re:Market penetration

[Anonymous Coward]

It says "bullion", not "billion". I certainly hope that you realized that before you made your comment.

Re:Market penetration

[Anonymous Coward]

The company hopes to install 35 bullion machines in the United States this year

To put that in perspective, that's over a hundred machines per person, or 3.3 machines per square foot of land. Talk about agressive expansion!

35 bullion not billion

That will come in handy

[Greyfox]

During the next Cyberman attack...

Bullion != billion

[tepples]

how much is "35 bullion"

Probably more than three Brazilian. (If you thought it was a typo for billion, see bulk precious metal.)

Bouillon ATMs

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, is there really enough demand for ATMs that sell soup stock?

Re:Bouillon ATMs

[hey]

The demand for bouillon has cubed.

I'd rather have a gold certificate

[davidwr]

Yes, I can buy gold through a broker but I'd rather have an old-style bearer/non-registered "gold certificate" issued by an insured, regulated entity such as a bank.

Each certificate would bear markings like:

"This certificate entitles the bearer to exchange it for 10 grams of gold when presented at our office in Chicago, Illinois. This certificate is insured by XYZ Underwriters and is guaranteed for 50 years from the date of issue."

A major advantage of certificates is you don't need an ATM - you can order them by registered mail or buy them at a bank lobby. Another advantage is they can be serialized and marked "void until issued" with the bank teller or ATM machine validating the certificate at the time of purchase, reducing the risk of theft.

Re:I'd rather have a gold certificate

[DragonWriter]

Yes, I can buy gold through a broker but I'd rather have an old-style bearer/non-registered "gold certificate" issued by an insured, regulated entity such as a bank.

Yeah, but there is very little incentive for banks to issue such certificates unless -- as they did when representational currency, rather than fiat currency, was the primary form of currency -- they can issue a greater number of certificates than they have actual gold reserves (otherwise, its a money-losing proposition, as managing the reserves and exchange operation -- and securing the underwriting you state a preference for -- all cost money.) This tends to go directly against the reasons that the people who do so prefer gold (physical or claims on gold held by someone else) over fiat currency as a store of value in the first place.

A major advantage of certificates is you don't need an ATM - you can order them by registered mail or buy them at a bank lobby.

That's obviously not a major advantage of certificates, as you can quite easily sell physical gold by post or over-the-counter at a bank or retail outlet.

Another advantage is they can be serialized and marked "void until issued" with the bank teller or ATM machine validating the certificate at the time of purchase, reducing the risk of theft.

From the perspective of most of the people that prefer an alternative store of value over central-bank-issued fiat currency, commodity-backed bearer certificates be subject to invalidation by corruption of the record-keeping system of the issuing entity is a disadvantage, not an advantage.

In fact, from the perspective of most of the people that prefer an alternative store of value over central-bank-issued fiat currency, commodity-backed bearer certificates relying on the continued existence of the issuing entity is itself a disadvantage. One of the major reasons people seek such alternatives is as insurance against the collapse of established institutions.

Re:I'd rather have a gold certificate

[PRMan]

Yes, I can buy gold through a broker but I'd rather have an old-style bearer/non-registered "gold certificate" issued by an insured, regulated entity such as a bank.

Each certificate would bear markings like:

"This certificate entitles the bearer to exchange it for 10 grams of gold when presented at our office in Chicago, Illinois. This certificate is insured by XYZ Underwriters and is guaranteed for 50 years from the date of issue."

A major advantage of certificates is you don't need an ATM - you can order them by registered mail or buy them at a bank lobby. Another advantage is they can be serialized and marked "void until issued" with the bank teller or ATM machine validating the certificate at the time of purchase, reducing the risk of theft.

Isn't that exactly how dollar bills started?

Re:I'd rather have a gold certificate

[DavidTC]

Erm, if you know about brokers, why the fuck are you buying gold any other way?

You do know you can actually have the brokers send you gold certificates, right? Pieces of paper redeemable in gold. Just like stockbrokers will send you actual stock certificates if you want? By law, you can always turn the electronic records of ownership at a broker into actual pieces of paper that they give you.

And, with that paper (And probably electronically too), you can pick up that amount of gold physically from the exchange, taking it out of the market entirely.

Note by 'the exchange', I mean many different places. There is one market, but the actual physical gold is at many locations, and you can get 'your gold' from any of them. If there's not one near you, you can pay third parties to pick it up in your name and ship it to you.

You know, like actual jewelry places do every day to get gold? They buy gold at their broker when it seems cheap, and then slowly but surely convert it into actual gold, letting them cut out all the middlemen except for their broker.

I'm not really sure what you're attempting to accomplish here, the gold market already works this way, except the gold isn't stored at banks. (Which have enough problem with theft to participate in something like that that wouldn't make them any money, thank you very much.)

Surprised at the "useless" and "aprilfools" tags

[stevegee58]

Allocating some portion of your assets to physical gold and silver is simply prudent, not useless.

How secure is the pricing

[RichMan]

Secure payment communications is old hat. I wonder how secure the pricing information is.
You could hack the communication to the local vending machine or do some DNS hacking on the source to the upstream feed where it reads the actual market price.

Set the price per ounce to 1/10 (1/100, 1/1000) of the actual market and you could make some pretty good money.

Re:How secure is the pricing

[vlm]

Probably about as likely to succeed as trying to change the ATM currency exchange rates in civilized areas (europe, etc)

Being able to get 1000 euros for every dollar I withdrew from that ATM in Ireland would have been quite handy.

Re:How secure is the pricing

[Zenaku]

It wouldn't be hard to program the machines to disregard a sudden radical drop in the reported market value of gold, or to stop selling whenever the price falls below a given value. This would make sense even if the sudden change in market value is legitimate.

Since it wouldn't be hard to program the machines thusly, and since the flaw inherent in not doing so is so obvious that you and a dozen other slashdot commenters have seized on it, it is a fairly safe assumption that the designers will have done something of that sort.

Why does every article about a new technology or in this case business plan get this treatment on slashdot? "The brief write-up from some journalist didn't include an exhaustive technical analysis of every detail, so I assume there are no details and no thought has been put into this project whatsoever! More evidence that everyone in the world is stupid except for me!"

I don't mean to single you out here. It's just that I see this kind of reaction on slashdot constantly.

Wait, wait... let me get this straight...

[Zarf]

You trade your cash for gold at these ... then you go to Cash4Gold and trade the gold for cash?

Re:Wait, wait... let me get this straight...

[SydShamino]

Sure, if you'd like to launder your money and lose a few hundred dollars in the process.

Re:Wait, wait... let me get this straight...

[Zarf]

Oh I get it. The target market for this product is mob-bosses.

Anonymous Coward.

[Anonymous Coward]

April already?

Safety of walking around with a couple oz.?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure the walking around won't be a safety issue -- that's 2500 USD or so -- many of us routinely carry that much in electronics, and unlike a laptop or SLR bag, it doesn't draw any attention to you.

The only added risk is muggers staking out the ATM -- which they could do with any standard ATM as well. It's not like most of the transactions here will be for the big increments.

ATM thefts will rise

[Mad-cat]

I've seen a lot of ATMs get stolen. It just takes a pickup truck, a crow bar, some chains and a couple of guys willing to take a risk.

If they'll do it for cash, anyone want to bet the percentage of gold ATMs that get stolen will be a lot higher than the percentage of regular ATMs?

Re:ATM thefts will rise

[Abcd1234]

It just takes a pickup truck, a crow bar, some chains and a couple of guys willing to take a risk.

I can only assume you've never weighed gold before. Good luck moving one of these things with anything but a forklift.

Re:ATM thefts will rise

[Huntr]

I can only assume you've never seen how thieves steal ATM's here in Florida.

Is that really gold bars?

[damn_registrars]

A 1 ounce gold bar is worth somewhere beyond $1,000 USD. Yet 1 ounce of gold is not very large in volume; I don't see people rushing out to buy these very small "bars" at an ATM in a public place.

Gold around the house

[OrangeTide]

My problem with having gold around the house is when I went to pay for the pizza he totally wouldn't give me change. What is that, about a $150 tip for a pie?

Re:Gold around the house

[Sentrion]

$0.25 in the year 1975 has the same purchase power as $1 in the year 2009.

Forget gold, give me an ATM that dispenses those 1975 quarters!

Not stolen Jewish gold I hope?

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject.

mini gold reclaimer

[qwerty8ytrewq]

I hope someone makes wall-mount mini gold refineries soon. You chuck in your old mobile phones, computer gear, company watch, stolen jewellery, teeth of your vanquished foes etc, into a nice mercury bath. Then the machine does a nice agitate cycle, boils the Hg off (or whatever, something about arsenic/cynanide) and spits out your reclaimed gold in handy billets. It would be, like, a bullion times cooler than Mobile Muster, where they ask you to just fork over your old tech booty for nought. The fumes from the mini-refineries would be pretty bad though....

Pop Nerd Quiz:how many gold mullions are in a billion bullions?

Of course Germans prefer gold

[MacGyver2210]

[Thomas Geissler, who owns the company behind the idea, said: "German investors have always preferred to hold a lot of personal wealth in gold, for historical reasons."]

Of course they do. And their supply is unsurprising. Ever heard of Nazi gold? It didn't just evaporate, you know.

And selling it 30% above market price? Why would anyone 'invest' with this machine when it costs less to buy from a dealer somewhere?

Re:Of course Germans prefer gold

[DavidTC]

And selling it 30% above market price? Why would anyone 'invest' with this machine when it costs less to buy from a dealer somewhere?

In the 'preying on people's fears to sell them gold' market, 30% markup is a steal. Goldline's selling at an average of 90% markup.

Re:ATM's?

[vlm]

ATM's what? As in, what is a component of the ATM, or what belongs to the ATM?

Oh, they meant ATMs. Plural. Gotcha.

Well, at least they didn't say "ATM machine" in the summary, so I guess it's not all bad.

The worst part is its not even an "ATM" its merely a Japanese style vending machine. (Japanese style as in sells high value items, as opposed to USA style that mostly sells junk food and postage stamps)

Preying on the ignorant?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who in their right mind would buy gold right now? It recently passed the $1300 mark and may climb higher, but historical trends indicate that it is in a major spiking period. "What goes up must come down," doesn't only apply to gravity. Buying during a spike like the current one will likely result in your investment going nowhere but down (which is why the commercials want you to buy RIGHT now) in the short-middle term with a chance of breaking even, or even making a modest gain in the long term where other investments would have yielded more over the same time period. Smart investors bought gold 10 years ago while the economy was giddy with the .com bubble and all the money was flowing in to Internet business ventures causing gold to be valued at a substantial low. That was the time to buy gold. Gold is now going for a premium due to a decade that has basically been economically volatile, a very recent and lingering recession and the increased use of gold as an industrial metal (which increases gold's value, but also makes it more volatile by tying demand to an industry). The wolves are currently out to prey on the fears of the ignorant; cue goofy commercials saying, "Invest in gold right now!!!" and bullion ATMs. Don't be ignorant. Don't buy gold now.

Re:Preying on the ignorant?

[feepness]

historical trends indicate that it is in a major spiking period. "What goes up must come down," doesn't only apply to gravity.

Historical trends indicate that every fiat currency in the history of mankind has eventually been devalued to nothing. It also shows that the dollar has lost 98% of its purchasing power in the last 100 years.

Re:Preying on the ignorant?

[MarcQuadra]

Buying during a spike like the current one will likely result in your investment going nowhere but down

Have you met any average human beings? People are still talking about when housing is going to get 'back on track' and my $150K duplex in the (rapidly degrading) city is going to be a half-million dollar cash cow.

People's eyes bugged out when I told them I was buying GGP stock (went from 40 to 0.44, I bought at 0.60, sold at 4) or BP (went from 70 to 25, I bought at 26, still holding at 38), but I bought my girlfriend a fancy laptop and paid off my credit cards while they wondered where their money went.

Do you have any idea how many people switched their retirements from stocks to bonds after the Dow went from 14,000 to 6,100? They missed the ride back up to 10,000, and are making 2.5% on less than half their original investment now. There's no getting through to them, though. I was waving my arms screaming 'buy stocks now' when the Dow was at 6,100, urging family and friends to switch their bonds over to stocks STAT, they could have double their money.

Re:Preying on the ignorant?

[LanMan04]

Who in their right mind would buy gold right now? It recently passed the $1300 mark and may climb higher, but historical trends indicate that it is in a major spiking period.

The same kind of people who bought houses in Las Vegas in 2006?

"Honey, we can't possibly lose, the house will triple in value in 10 years!" lol

Re:Preying on the ignorant?

[Mex]

Who in their right mind would buy gold right now? It recently passed the $1300 mark and may climb higher, but historical trends indicate that it is in a major spiking period. "What goes up must come down," doesn't only apply to gravity

I dunno man, I was going to buy gold when they were saying the same thing, but it was at $600 dollars.

I didn't buy, because guys like you kept saying the same thing. =/

Then 5 or so years later, I could have bought a new house.

Now? I WANT to believe it really is too late.

Never take advice about finances from the internet...

Think of the Ferengi

[brycethorup]

Oh sure, gold bars are nice and all, but what about the gold pressed latinum? The Ferengi deserve to have their medium of trade supported too.

Theft target.

[molo]

If the machines themselves won't be a theft target, the people using the machines will be. Thieves will wait until you see someone using the machine, then follow and mug them at an opportune time/location.

-molo

Re:Theft target.

[the eric conspiracy]

How is that any different from getting cash out of an ATM?

Gold might actually be safer because it is less liquid than cash.

ATM fees?

[bth]

Will the gold ATM charge fees in bars of silver?

Am I out of date?

[Demena]

I thought it was illegal for americans to own bullion and use it as currency. Has that changed?

Re:Am I out of date?

[the eric conspiracy]

You are out of date. You can own and pay debts in gold if you find anyone who will take the gold.

Re:Surprised at the "useless" and "aprilfools" tag

[Joebert]

I prefer lead.

Unless it also ACCEPTS gold bars...

[dpbsmith]

...I'm not interested.

All the goldbugs keep telling me that gold is money, regardless of what economists say or what governments decree. So if gold is money, why won't these machines work either way?

Your choice, put in fiat money and get a gold bar, or put in a gold bar and get some crisp green U. S. of A. "Cyberbit Certificates" (or whatever it is that backs the currency nowadays).

I'm sure the technical problems could be solved--it only accepts gold bars slabbed in polycarbonate with a barcode on them, or something. Methinks the real reason is that it would exposed the bid/asked spread.

Re:Unless it also ACCEPTS gold bars...

[Anonymous Coward]

So if gold is money, why won't these machines work either way?

Because if they did, people like me would get rich overnight by turning in gold plated lead bars.

As a goldsmith's son, I can tell you that buying gold is hell of a lot riskier than investing in gold.
The three scratch acid test isn't an end-all guarantee that what you are dealing with is authentic.
I once saw a rival jeweler buy 14oz a pot metal chain for $400 after giving it the scratch test (a few
years ago when gold was hovering around $450/oz.

Gold being so close to lead, and the scratch test being cheatable, I wouldn't risk accepting gold
and paying out cash in an automated fashion. In fact, I recently asked my father to put a policy
in place such that he would simply not buy gold without 2 forms of ID (license and CC).

Re:Unless it also ACCEPTS gold bars...

[DavidTC]

If you want to participate in the actual gold market, as opposed to scammers selling nonsense and absurdly marked up gold, please locate a commodities broker.

They're like stock brokers, but for the gold and other commodities market. They charge no 'markup', just clearly stated transaction fees per sell and purchase. Records are kept electronically, just like stocks, but, just like stocks, you can get a piece of paper from them, or even actually go and get your gold from one of the exchanges. (You'll have to go in person, though, they won't ship it.)

Just like with a stockbroker, you can get a 'full featured' one that gives advice and is on call, or you can get a cheaper account that is essentially a web page with some charts and you do all the research. Either way you want. Sometimes you can trade commodities and stocks at the same place.

But, anyway, go to a broker, like actual non-stupid investors use to invest in fungible things, while idiots are 'investing' in people selling shit out of their trenchcoat, stuff that, even if they were buying it at a reasonable cost (They aren't.), they'd still have no way to sell at full value when they needed to cash out.

These idiots are buying at 40%-100% markup (The 30% markup of these machines is actually amazingly low.), and the only place they have to sell their 'investment' is pawn shops and cash for gold places where they'll be lucky to get 40% of the actual value. That means when they buy something for $100, they'll be able to sell it for, I dunno, $25. (Assuming gold hasn't crashed by then, at which point we're talking $10.)

As an added bonus, at a commodities broker, instead of investing in gold, which is at a goddamn universal record high and certainly going to crash when this idiotic speculation dies down, you could invest in silver or platinum or something that might actually go up in value. Oh, and you can short gold if you think the gold crash is coming soon.

Re:Unless it also ACCEPTS gold bars...

[gangien]

is a euro money? why won't my atm accept them?

My ATM doesn't allow $1,300 withdrawals

[Anonymous Coward]

I won't be getting a 1 oz bar anytime soon since my bank doesn't allow a single withdrawal that large. I guess I'll have to stick with the 10g bars for $450.

Not getting it are you?

[SmallFurryCreature]

You don't buy gold from an ATM if you trust BANKS. And if you don't trust banks, you don't trust certificates from banks.

You do trust that worthless metal will be worth anything once society collapses because when the 4 horse men are riding, my first need is gold...

Re:Surprised at the "useless" and "aprilfools" tag

[stevegee58]

I too have allocated some of my assets to lead. Also brass.

number

[tris203]

how many 0's are in a bullion?

Re:number

[Demena]

The same as in a brazilian.

You can't eat gold.

[Fantastic Lad]

Gold is only useful if you can hang on to it and survive the years between total collapse and the rebuilding of a new world.

Generally, gold is seized by whatever autocrats and strong-men are vying for power in the interim. In any case, during the hungry years, nobody has any use for gold.

But what's interesting this time around is that we're entering an age where canned goods are stable and good for years. We've never been through a societal collapse which has had access to high-quality, preserved goods.

Whatever. Skill sets are more important in the long run. Can you farm or make useful things? What value do you personally hold? Do people like you?

-FL

Re:You can't eat gold.

[Syberz]

I, for one, wouldn't mind having a house made of gold bullion bricks when the zombie apocalypse arrives.

Curious

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought that ownership of gold bullion was limited to banks and individuals who went through some pshchotic registration process, I thought the only way your average person cound posess pure gold was "collectors items". Anyone know whats up? Was I just wrong? In any case by the time these machines get here I would bet that gold prices will start to fall, probably not freefall, but a steady decine.

WTF!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, WTF?! The economy in this country is in its worst state since the Great Depression, an OFFICIAL unemployment figure around 10%, the top 2% are making off like freaking thieves at the expense of the rest of us, and oh, by the way, bitching the entire time about having their taxes increase to 34% once the tax dodge ^H^H^H^H^H cuts expire....and now vending machines for gold, obviously only for those who can afford it?

What. The. Unholy. F'ng. Hell!?

Y'know, this is WAAY out of control, I have a nice thought, and it's only a thought, I don't expect it seriously. Why don't the rest of us just do the decent thing for the rest of humanity, and ourselves and declare a "cap a fatcat" day? At the rate things are going, we could freaking eat the bastards, and still call it a public service.

boggles the mind

[circletimessquare]

i especially like the arguments that currency is suspect because it has no inherent value, and its all going to collapse at a moments notice because its not based on gold or silver anymore (the sky is falling!)

well, what the heck is gold and silver? IT'S JUST A SHINY METAL. can you eat it? can you put a roof over your head with it. well, actually gold is quite ductile... maybe you could make a roof out of it. mighty pricey roof though

there are only three things of inherent value in this world:

1. food, animal or plant
2. shelter/ clothing
3. child bearing women

everything else is essentially useless, except for its symbolic value or its value as part of civilization

therefore, if you really believe we're all going mad max to bartertown in a few years, become a farmer. everything else you can do is pointless, including hording bars of yellowish metal

Re:boggles the mind

[jimrthy]

Everything's value is completely subjective. Gold and silver are shiny, pretty, and rare. People have agreed throughout history that they're valuable. That means they are. It's more convenient to carry coins around than a wagon-load of goods to barter. That's how money started in the first place. It's just a placeholder for the things we actually want.

They're also extremely useful in electronics. But that's pretty much beside the point.

Re:boggles the mind

[Red Flayer]

therefore, if you really believe we're all going mad max to bartertown in a few years, become a farmer. everything else you can do is pointless, including hording bars of yellowish metal

If we're going mad max, farming is not where the money is. Subsistence is important, but you can always *trade* for food. Which is where gold comes in, as a near-universal currency. If you have enough of it, you can manipulate local markets to your benefit.

But anyway, the people who make out best in a mad max situation will be the merchants. Being able to supply many people with what *they* need is way more profitable than just being able to supply yourself (and family) with what *you* need for baseline subsistence.

So I say, rather than hoard gold or learn to farm, hoard farming tools and steel knives. And guns and ammo. And fuel. But don't neglect the high-profit luxury items and their inputs... someone needs to supply (at a profit) the local warlords and their mistresses. Hoard silk. Hoard glassware. Hoard dyes. Oh, and don't forget to make sure you have the resources to employ heavies to keep those warlords from taking your stuff for free.

And while you're at it, you might as well just become one of those warlords, and synergistically apply your brutal local enforcement methods to ensuring you are the *only* supplier of durable goods in your area. Then you can make sure to maximize your profits.

Wait, sorry, did I get off track with a libertarian fantasy?

Re:boggles the mind

[RightSaidFred99]

Riiiight. It's not like gold had value in far more primitive times than we're ever likely to see, amirite? Oh, wait... Gold has always had value. Your point is mostly asinine. Of course in a raw survival scenario gold is worthless. No shit. What's your "point", again? As if the only scenario one would buy gold for is a total collapse of all human society to something approaching pre-civilization humanity.

Re:boggles the mind

[mjwx]

Wait, sorry, did I get off track with a libertarian fantasy?

I'd never have described a mad max-esque post apocalypse world as "libertarian".

A libertarian utopia would be more like Starship Troopers (book or movie, the depiction of society is about the only thing they have in common). Everyone competes in a system without restrictions and it some how does not result in a concentration of power (say like a monopoly).

Re:boggles the mind

[uninformedLuddite]

Wait, sorry, did I get off track with a libertarian fantasy?

Not sure but you have made me very horny

Re:boggles the mind

[Red Flayer]

Well, my fantasy was more of a libertarian dystopia... I don't think a libertarian utopia can exist.

Re:boggles the mind

[mjwx]

Well, my fantasy was more of a libertarian dystopia... I don't think a libertarian utopia can exist.

I agree, but I still think Mad Max is more of a tyrannical then libertarian

Safety is relative

[thethibs]

would it be safe to have a couple of ounces in your pocket while walking around the mall?

Do you have a carry permit?

Re:Safety is relative

[russotto]

would it be safe to have a couple of ounces in your pocket while walking around the mall?

Do you have a carry permit?

Unless you go to rougher malls than I go to, it's reasonably safe to walk around with gold (even without a firearm to go with it). Lots of people walk around malls with expensive items, including visible jewelry, and few get mugged.

I don't think I'd make a withdrawal in downtown Detroit at the machine between the bail bonds place and the payday loan company, though.

Don't forget sales tax...

[NotQuiteReal]

Why do they call it an ATM?

It is a vending machine, and here in California, at least, there is SALES TAX on even bullion purchases, if less than "investment quantities" (currently $1500).

So, between the retail markup, and sales tax, I don't expect these to be very popular at all, except for the math challenged - maybe it will take winning lotto tickets as well as other forms of payment.

Gold Advance Fee

[Sentrion]

So, is my bank card going to process this as just another transaction or am going to be hit with a "gold advance fee", usurious interest rates, and an "alternative currency transaction fee"?

Analysis is too simplistic

[justinlee37]

Gold is useful if the currency of your country collapses in value prior to your purchase and the world economy is still strong enough to buy your gold.

Economic collapse is not an all-or-nothing event, sometimes the economy in a limited number of countries collapses. An example of this would be Argentina in 1999.

Re:Analysis is too simplistic

[MadUndergrad]

Right, but you can also buy foreign currency for basically the same effect. Still not a great argument for buying gold.

Re:Analysis is too simplistic

[RightSaidFred99]

Which currency? The Euro? Fucking please. Gold is semi-independent of the value of any one currency. It's a solid investment as _part_ of your portfolio, but the problem is it can be manipulated like any other market so it's silly to put all your eggs in one basket, like anything else.

Re:Analysis is too simplistic

[gangien]

gold(and silver) has had value for thousands of years. You can't say the same about the us dollar or the euro. Also, people can't just make gold, unless most currencies, which are easy to print more of.

Re:Analysis is too simplistic

[Anonymous Coward]

If only the US collapses, and you're in the US, how are you going to trade with the rest of the world? You'd have to be near the Mexican or Canadian border and hope that they aren't wrecked by the same crisis, or be at a port city and hope the port somehow stays open.

Further, the exact value of gold fluctuates wildly. It's in a spike right now, and part of that spike is from demand in the US. If the US economy collapses, so does the demand, and therefore the price. If you're preparing for the worst, it seems inevitable that you would have been better off buying the equivalent dollar value of supplies. And if you're making an investment, then you'd be a total fool to buy gold at current prices. (You may have made a killing if you bought when it was cheap and sold at the peak, of course).

so they are on line how long before they get hacke

[Joe The Dragon]

so they are on line how long before they get hacked?

Will some hack it and make it spit out gold by remote.

Doh

[justinlee37]

I meant to say, if the currency collapses AFTER your purchase, not before it. But you probably knew that.

Actually you can eat gold

[aapold]

Its not harmful. Gold flake was put in food by royalty since the middle ages.

Some even argue it has health benefits.

Ever drunk Goldschlager? It has gold in it.

Re:Actually you can eat gold

[jameskojiro]

So your advice is to buy Goldschlager?

Your Advice is EPIC WIN-WIN!!!!

Pushing demand for gold up.

[FriendlyPrimate]

Interesting turn of events. Making gold easily accessible to the "common man" could significantly increase demand for gold and continue pushing up the price to stratospheric heights. There's a lot of people who think Armageddon is right around the corner, and the only reason they haven't stocked up on gold is because you can't exactly walk into Wal-Mart to get it. It could be the next great bubble!

Pump and dump?

[whitelabrat]

This looks like a scheme to pump up demand for gold. In turn the effect will be even more inflation of gold values. Chances are the folks buying this stuff are knuckle dragging idots who will only loose money playing this game.

Opulence

[Fastball]

I has it.

Gold? No way. Staple foods and long-term storage.

[EmagGeek]

I'd much rather have 10 5-gallon sealed buckets of staple grains and a supply of vegetables than an ounce of gold, if the stuff hits the fan.

An ounce of gold won't feed my family for a year, but if I have enough stored foodstuff and supplies, then we can make it if we have to.

Staple Foods
Water Filtration
Shelter
Weapons

Those are the things that are actually useful.

1975 quarters

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that what the dollar coin is, a quarter-sized slug worth the same as a 1975 quarter?

Tautological.

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

Now, I have to give the gold standard guys some credit, they said it would go up, and it did, bigtime.

Yeah, and just as the "houses only go up" folks, they will be remembered as being right for as long as they did. If you always say the price of X is going to go up, you will be right. At some point.

Hello sheeple

[Anonymous Coward]

I am very pleased I see only people ignorant of gold here - that means we have still a long way to go before this bubble pops. So finally, I might really get rich some day :) When you guys start buying gold and writting about how safe it is to own gold I'll start selling.

WARNING

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

I live in a state with a large number of concealed carry permits. Forceful robberies are becoming less common.

Warning: one of these facts may be followed by the other only in terms of time, and not of causal chain...

Re:Gold? No way. Staple foods and long-term storag

[jameskojiro]

Lead and Brass are far better metals to collect.

Great spelling guys...

[pwykersotz]

Maybe they meant 35 boullion. It'd make a lot more sense than 35 billion. Then again, maybe not.

150% Markup == 2.5 times cost

[TimSSG]

I do NOT think Goldline is selling Gold at 2.5 times their cost/market value. Tim S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markup_(business)#Markup_as_a_percentage

Superstition

[harlows_monkeys]

Gold is the creationism of economics.

A list for success

[TheGreatMcCluck]

Create widespread fear and doubt, CHECK. Create economic depression, CHECK. Make people believe that gold doesn't lose value no matter how bad things get, and that things are about to get REALLY BAD, CHECK. Set up gold dispensing machines to collect "worthless money", thereby making a killing, IN PROGRESS

welp!

[Charliemopps]

Looks like me an Lil' Pete gonna have to fire up the tow truck again. Any you folks if one of these new fangled machines weight more than a Peterbilt?

How does it handle deposits?

[jameskojiro]

Because I have a whole lot of lead fishing weights and several cans of gold spray paint....

Re:ATM's?

[DavidTC]

They're calling it an 'ATM' because they want to think of the stuff you get from it as money.

Of course, it's not money, absolutely no one will take it anywhere in exchange for anything, but perhaps more people will use it if they just think of it like 'getting money from an ATM', which doesn't require making a cost vs. value roll.

In other words, the 'ATM' designation is a scam, like almost all things in the 'purchase gold' market.

You want to invest in gold, people, whatever. I personally think it's a very bad time, but whatever.

Get a damn account at a commodities broker and buy some damn gold at actual market price plus a set transaction fee, just like you buy stocks. Gold you can resell, later, in seconds, for another fee, instead of trying to find a pawn shop to give you 40% of the value. Don't buy from some idiot shilling on TV or some machine.

Re:so they are on line how long before they get ha

[horza]

How many normal ATM machines have you seen hacked and spitting out USD remotely?

Phillip.

Especially since their actions are backwards

[Sycraft-fu]

What I mean is they claim that the US dollar is going to become worthless, that only gold will hold any value... Yet they are willing to take your worthless US dollars in large amounts and sell you valuable gold for them. That tells you something, specifically that they are full of shit.

If I honestly believed gold would be the only worthwhile currency I sure as hell wouldn't give you any for dollars.

They are just playing in to a craze they know to be false and, as you said, this is an ultimate form of it. These things allow people to purchase with nothing more than a credit card, and do so at a massive price premium.

Re:Especially since their actions are backwards

[rubycodez]

no, the point is gold can be sold for whatever currency is in use at the time of sale, or used directly as money (which I can assure you in smarter regions of the plane it can be)

Re:Especially since their actions are backwards

[operagost]

What I mean is they claim that the US dollar is going to become worthless, that only gold will hold any value... Yet they are willing to take your worthless US dollars in large amounts and sell you valuable gold for them. That tells you something, specifically that they are full of shit.

No, it means that you're under the moronic impression they're sitting on a huge pile of money instead of TRADING in gold. That means they BUY and SELL it.

Re:Especially since their actions are backwards

[Hognoxious]

You're missing the point: if gold is so totalleh @\/\/3so/\/\3z0r like they claim, why are they selling it?

The logical thing to do would be to set up kiosks that buy it.

Re:Especially since their actions are backwards

[rgviza]

That's because in a few weeks, months, years (whenever the bubble bursts) the value of gold will fall through the floor and since US dollars are not on the gold standard, the value of the dollars you gave them will actually go up significantly compared to where the value was when you bought their overpriced gold, once the bubble bursts.

I will be ready to buy gold by the pound for next to nothing (compared to right now) when that happens.

The easiest way to know when not to buy gold, is when there are ads covering news channels, magazines, newspapers and every other media telling you to BUY GOLD NOW. If it was a great time to buy gold, people would be buying it themselves and not advertising the fact.

Re:Especially since their actions are backwards

[Anonymous Coward]

They would add a markup so they make a profit buying the gold and selling to their customers. This is a valid business model in itself since it is how pretty much all shops operate. With the profits they can either convert their excess dollars into gold, if they truly believe this is the way to go, or another commodity that is more likely to go up in price. Just because they sell to their customers in dollars doesn't mean they keep the dollars, it is just if they don't sell in dollars, they wont make many sales.

The rich are not that bad.

[TelavianX]

I actually want the rich people to have a lot of money. Every job I have ever had, 10+, was created because some rich person needed my skills. Without rich people where would we be?

yes, you did

[circletimessquare]

and you realize that you don't plan for such a world

90% of us would die. the other 10% would be slaves. the 0.000001% that actually achieved some sort of warlord status would be quickly killed off in a power rivalry... and that next guy would be killed off as well

there is no such thing as planning for the breakdown of civilization. because such a future is no future for anyone, just injustice and crime and suffering and poverty

Re:yes, you did

[Red Flayer]

and you realize that you don't plan for such a world

I don't. But some people do. There are a lot of people who live in compounds and are prepared for exactly that kind of world.

there is no such thing as planning for the breakdown of civilization. because such a future is no future for anyone, just injustice and crime and suffering and poverty

Well, you may right. But I think you're overly pessimistic. Civilization would be reborn. How long would it take? It depends on the scenario. Anywhere from a few years to many generations. But I wouldn't underestimate the ability of people to establish local stability as a community.

Re:ATM's?

[maxwell demon]

Of course, it's not money, absolutely no one will take it anywhere in exchange for anything

Well, if someone offered me a kilogram of gold in exchange of a kilogram of water, I'd immediately take it. :-)

food is not a subjective value

[circletimessquare]

shelter is not a subjective value

a mate is not subjective value

without these things, you die (or life does not continue after your natural death). therefore, food shelter and a mate have objective value, the ONLY things with objective value in fact. everything else is bullshit

yes gold and silver have historical value as agents of currency, but we are talking about a world with civilization breaking down, not a world in which civilization is growing again. if you make it to the return of civilization, congratulations. but in the meantime, your gold is not going to help you survive, because you won't be bartering for anything, because there are no merchants out there, just murderers

Re:food is not a subjective value

[jimrthy]

The value's still subjective. If you have no food, shelter and a mate really aren't that important. If you have an abundance of all three, one corn on the cob isn't going to seem as important to you. You can start looking into the value of other things.

It's all about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

If things get as bad as you're predicting, you forgot about the inherent value of guns and ammo.

I don't really see things ever degenerating that far, though. I have faith in the murderers will get tired of the killing first, realize they're better off fleecing everybody else, start collecting "protection money," and start the government going again.

Fear

[Sycraft-fu]

If you sniff around on the Internet, even right her eon Slashdot, you'll find a non-trivial number of people who think US currency is worthless. They've learned a tiny bit about how money works and that there's nothing 'backing' modern currency and thus been convinced it isn't worth anything. They haven't learned enough to understand money as a theoretical construct for trade.

So, because they think that dollars are worthless and the rest of the world just hasn't figured it out yet, they want to use their worthless dollars to get something that will be worthwhile "post collapse." Being from a western nation, they latch on to gold. Western countries have long had an obsession with gold and it was currency once (they either forget or don't know that was not the case everywhere).

However not all of these people have the savvy or money or whatnot to actually invest in gold through a brokerage. What's more, some of the more extreme survival types don't believe that would do any good, they believe they need to have physical gold hoarded in their house.

This exists for them. Useful? No. Rational? Not at all. However fear is the ting in the market these days and these things are there to play on it. People get fearful, these give them an immediate way to deal with that.

Ummmm, reverse that

[Sycraft-fu]

When we were on the gold standard, private gold ownership was illegal (other than jewelery and so on). Since currency was backed by gold and the price set by the government, you couldn't go and buy it up yourself. That would create problems.

When the gold standard ended and currencies floated, then private ownership was again legal, and remains so to this day.

Also, I'll buy as much gold as you want to sell at $300 an ounce. Not because I'm interested in owning gold, but because I can turn around and sell it at 4x that currently.

Because there are two kinds of gold bugs

[Sycraft-fu]

Uneducated and unethical. The uneducated ones just don't understand currency very well. They claim that gold = the one true money, but don't understand that isn't how money works. What is and is not money is all up to what people perceive. Money is money because you can spend it. Whatever construct people are willing to use for trade is money, doesn't matter how theoretical it is or if nothing backs it. So they have a system in their heads that has nothing to do with reality.

The other gold bugs, the kind that are setting these up, are unethical. They realize that gold is worth a shit ton right now, way more than it has been historically and that this is largely due to fear. This also means it isn't sustainable, especially since we aren't out of gold in the ground and mines that weren't profitable at $300/oz are now and can be reopened. So they are interested in selling you gold to cash in. They won't admit it, they want to keep the fear of "You have to own gold it is all that is worthwhile," alive, but they themselves want to sell their gold and get a bunch of "worthless" US dollars.

These are just to make it more accessible to those without the ability or will or money to setup a commodities trading account or those who are so fearful they want to physically have possession. It also lets them charge a massive premium. Gold coming from these things will NOT be NYMEX prices, it will be heavily marked up. Pure profit right there.

You aren't going to see back and forth gold machines because they are of no use. Anyone wishing to trade gold regularly will do it through a broker.

if you don't eat, you die

[circletimessquare]

that's a pretty objective value

i don't know why you insist on disputing this

Re:if you don't eat, you die

[jimrthy]

If you're starving to death, you'll do pretty much anything for a cracker. If you just ate a huge steak dinner, probably not so much.

You have to have water to live as well. If you're dying of thirst in the desert, it's the most precious commodity in the world. If you're drowning, not so much.

Cultures are different

[Anonymous Coward]

For the last 40 yrs in American culture, owning gold beyond jewelry really hasn't happened. In some cultures, Indian and Chinese come to mind, having gold items beyond jewely is part of the culture.

The Onion

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought this was going to be an Onion News ( http://www.theonion.com/ ) satire... but it's real :O

35 Bullion Machines

[phatslaab]

C'mon admit it! I bet your thinking, "that's a lot of ATM machines!"

if you have never been hungry

[circletimessquare]

it doesn't mean you never will be hungry

however, as you demonstrate, it apparently means it is possible to develop a complacent out of touch mentality that doesn't know what is truly essential in life

what is truly essential really is objectively valuable. either food is essential to living, or its not. if its essential to life, than food has provable objective value

end of discussion, idiot

Re:if you have never been hungry

[jimrthy]

I don't think you understand the terms here. If I'm going camping for a week, I take a week's worth of food. If I'm just driving to work, I might pack a lunch. The value depends on the situation.

If the value of food were objective, we'd all be hoarding exactly the same amount.

Consider Aluminum

[professorguy]

It requires 3 electrons to turn the components of aluminum ore into one aluminum atom. That's a lot of electricity. That's why big Alcoa plants are not often conveniently placed, but are always near cheap power. There is simply no way to end up with usable aluminum without pouring on the power.

So think of aluminum ingots as frozen electricity. If electricity becomes more expensive to produce in the future, aluminum goes up, and of course if power is cheaper, it goes down. So which do you bet on: dwindling oil causing a rise or technological breakthrough making power cheap?

I may not know precious metals

[BaShildy]

But I do remember the final signs in each of the last several bubbles and stuff like this reeks of this. Currently, September 28 2010 the SPDR Gold trust is at 127.85 , an all time high since its listing. While no one can forecast the short term with much certainty, this seems like a strong indication that the amount of vehicles to sell gold is running dry, and that the gold market may implode in the next few years.

On the contrary, Video Graphics-adaptor

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe it is a Video Graphics-Adaptor not a Video-Graphics Array adapter.

After-all, the point of making such hardware was to adapt a buffer of numbers assembled as an array representing color points, where these buffers of numbers may be pre-loaded any number of pages to present the next in an animation, as opposed to a representation of symbols for a DAC to interpret in Text-mode displays.

Remember, graphics adaptors originally sent symbolic data to a control in a Monitor that would display a pre-loaded collection of numbers and letters remeniscent of an ASCII display rather than plot points on the screen.

Re:Gold? No way. Staple foods and long-term storag

[russotto]

Lead and Brass are far better metals to collect.

You can use gold in place of the lead. Then if you survive the first stage where it's every man (or at least household) for himself, you're set for the primitive economy which follows.

Agreed

[Fantastic Lad]

That's an excellent point, so long as you maintain the ability to cross borders and get out of the trade-collapse zone. Travel is hard if you're hungry. Heck, basic rational thought is hard if you're hungry.

But it's true; we've not experienced in recent centuries a world-wide collapse scenario. So long as one or two industrialized countries manage to maintain stability, then that would allow other countries to open trade relations and slowly get back on their feet. -If, that is, everybody plays nice.

There's lots of gold and silver and other precious metals and resources in third world countries, but they remain hell-holes through one means or another, sometimes repression on the global stage, other times through sheer momentum of existing situations.

I suppose clever, well-informed and determined individuals will be able to maneuver themselves through hazards even as vast as a new ice age. The equatorial regions generally stay warm enough for agriculture during dark ages. But curiously, whole populations stuck it out in the mud in the past. Though this time, there is greater knowledge and infrastructure available to facilitate maneuvering. And much greater police and military forces in place to make damned certain this doesn't happen.

Those global elites are quite aware of the situation unfolding, and they will be wanting the nice sunny beaches to themselves, and perhaps a few million slaves to do the work, but no more.

-FL

150% markup?

[Lost Race]

Hmm, I'd never heard of "Goldline" so I googled it and found their website which led me to their online store which lists 1 oz Krugerands for $1392 each. According to the 24 hour spot chart gold is currently at about $1309/oz. $1392/$1309 is about 1.06 -- a 6% markup.

Re:150% markup?

[DavidTC]

Goldline will happily list those coins, and even sell those coins...but that's not the coins they're selling to people who call in as 'investments'. These are the sort of coins they offer to 'investors' who call in.

That's a half oz of gold at 22 carats, $1,218.16 for $597 worth of gold, and not much collectible value at all. And you can buy them straight from a authorized dealer for $694.72.

That's 80% markup from the ask price. (Which already has the legit markup in it!) Seriously, look at their list vs. that legit dealer list.

No one's saying all their products are scams. But when people call in and don't know anything about gold, they talk long and hard about how gold is a good investment and how you should invest in coins instead of bars, and then they sell people 'investments' that can't ever make money. (Which is, incidentally, illegal.)

Oh, and they also promise to buy it back for the 'bid price', which of course everyone who calls in assumes is the price they're selling it for, because, unlike legit dealers, they don't display or tell the bid price in any way. Actually, they don't promise to buy it back for that, they say they're 'not allowed to promise' that, thus pretending to make a promise while not legally making one, but it's moot as the price they're promising to buy it back for is, unknown to everyone, much lower than the price they're selling for.

Modern Monetary Theory

[nhaehnle]

That the nation's debt, is only getting bigger

This is not really a problem in itself.

I won't waste my time trying to explain this on Slashdot, but if you're interested in some eye-opening economics lesson, I suggest you read the book 7 Deadly Innocent Frauds by US economist Warren Mosler. Once you're through that, I recommend billyblog, the blog of Australian economist Bill Mitchell, one of the most prolific proponents of Modern Monetary Theory.

Just to give you an idea of what you will find: Basically, the current economic mainstream hasn't really understood that we no longer have the gold standard. It is implicitly based on false assumptions that are easily rebuked given a proper understanding of the functional workings of a fiat currency.

Background info: I did the VPN behind those

[RichiH]

The VPN those machines run on is my brain-child. So I know a thing or two about the machines.

With all the cameras and other hidden security features in those machines, it's quite a secure setup. Fascinating what people come up with. Sorry if I don't want to share details ;)
By the way, those machines are, literally, bomb-proof.

The fact that this thing is taking off so incredibly is... incredible. Personally, I would not have expected that level of success.

Now if only I was sent around to world to install those machines instead of doing remote maintenance... :)

Re:Background info: I did the VPN behind those

[egghat]

What level of success? I know just one installation (in Dubai). Frankfurt airport was just a test.

Re:Background info: I did the VPN behind those

[RichiH]

There have been over a dozen installations and the 35 installations Mr. Geissler predicts for 2010 are realistic. I don't know where they are being installed, though. I only know them by their IPs ;)

Re:Background info: I did the VPN behind those

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting. Why isn't there any info an their website?

PR spinning

[egghat]

Greets from Germany.

There aren't any gold vending machines in Germany. The company did install 1 (in word one) machine at the Frankfurt airport and even that was for a testing period only. So AFAIK there is just one single machine installed in Germany, in Geisslers gold shop in Reutlingen. Try finding one on their website: http://www.gold-to-go.com/ .

Of course there should be gazillions (=480 ;-) ) of gold vending machines in Germany by now, at least that's what he planned when installed the test machine at Frankfurt airport in spring 2009.

This Thomas Geissler guy is quite clever at spinning the PR wheel. But 100 gold vending machines? ILMAO ...

One at his gold shop in Reutlingen and (presumably) one in Dubai.

GOLD AUS DEM AUTOMATEN! (Sorry, in German only).

The value of fiat money

[nhaehnle]

What is and is not money is all up to what people perceive. Money is money because you can spend it. Whatever construct people are willing to use for trade is money, doesn't matter how theoretical it is or if nothing backs it. So they have a system in their heads that has nothing to do with reality.

Modern Monetary Theory actually offers an alternative theory: Money has value because government forces people to pay taxes, thus creating a demand for the money issued by government. At least to me that makes much more sense than the fuzzy circular of reasoning that is "It has value because people say it has value". I suggest you google for "7 Deadly Innocent Frauds" by Warren Mosler, or for billyblog by Bill Mitchell, two economists who seem to "get it".