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EPIC Files Lawsuit To Suspend Airport Body Scanner Use
nacturation writes "The Electronic Privacy Information Center filed a petition for review and motion for an emergency stay, urging the District of Columbia Court of Appeals to suspend the Transportation Security Administration's full body scanner program. EPIC said that the program is 'unlawful, invasive, and ineffective' (PDF). EPIC argued that the federal agency has violated the Administrative Procedures Act, the Privacy Act, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and the Fourth Amendment. EPIC cited the invasive nature of the devices, the TSA's disregard of public opinion, and the impact on religious freedom."
Add the embrace of these devices to my list of disappointments in the Obama administration. Not that I'm surprised -- he telegraphed himself very plainly on civil liberties when he backtracked on FISA -- but I'm still disappointed.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I'm glad to see not everyone is taking this issue laying down. Seems like technology is getting more and more invasive as time goes by. Pretty soon everyone is going to be tracked even in there own home. Some already are!
~Bchickens
How can I help this cause?
or having you genitals felt up. Seriously that's their policy. They think if they subject everybody to public humiliation that people will opt for private humiliation instead.
Personally, I'll go for the public. If they're going to be obnoxious, authoritarian jerks, they should be forced to do it where everybody can see them. I'll act like I'm gay and I enjoy it. I will act like I think they're gay, and they enjoy it. I will turn the humiliation tables around and ask them if they like feeling people's balls and vaginas up in public, if it turns them on.
If enough people take my stance on it, they will quit this garbage in a hurry.
Yeah, all you scaredy cat cowards people who think that somehow this will come back on me and make my life miserable. You know what, up yours. It's people like you that've gotten us where we are, and you should be ashamed of yourselves. For once in your life, show a little backbone and self-respect.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
Took long enough. I though it would be the ACLU but they seem to have really dropped the ball when it comes to the TSA. Here is the problem with all airport security theater. A dogs are better bomb sniffers than any machine. And B you can put a bomb up your ass. I suspect that the ACLU didn't go after the TSA because they too are turning into a bunch of ass covering bureaucrats and worried about the optics of them shutting down half this airport crap and then some dickweed blowing up a plane and their getting the blame.
But, you don't have to go through the scanner. You can always opt for a genital pat down instead! You can trade _seeing_ your genitals for _touching_ them if you want!
So creepy...
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/10/31/0234232/TSA-To-Make-Pat-Downs-More-Embarrassing-To-Encourage-Scanner-Use
This Friday night, come on down to Club Big Brother! We got a full body scanner, some disco balls, strobe effects, and some kickin' bass! The crowd will go wild when you step into the full nude scanner and it's shown on our 2 story high video wall! No cover for ladies and half-price drinks! Club Big Brother-because privacy violations are one big party!
In other news, the Exhibitionists Society of America has filed a counter-claim...
Raters gon' rate.
Salon and the Atlantic report that you have to take off your belt when you go through these things. And that you have to raise your hands.
So my plan (which all slashdotters should copy) is to wear loose pants and go commando.
Best Slashdot Co
I'm amazed they got away with it this long. This is just another thing in a long list of overreactions to 9/11 that will finish the job they started.
How does it feel to be a liar with pants constantly on fire?
Given the purpose of this machine, how can it be both invasive and ineffective?
The GRAMMAR BOT 9001 has determined you have confused the words "their" and "there". An infraction has been added to your permanent record and your mother has been notified.
really?
He may look like Wilt, but he plays like Neville.
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
This society is not obliged to indulge your irrational fear, even if some of the extremist elements of this society have encouraged you to cultivate your irrational fear.
You honestly think hijackings will still work? Seriously? Every time there has been a peep of insurrection on a plane the passengers all but kill the assailant. General screening for bombs is fine (although that doesn't even work, Shoe Bomber, Underpants Bomber). But the days of box cutters equaling destroyed sky scrapers is _gone_.
Simple... just don't fly
Surely Sir you Jest... So I spend my hard earned Cabbage to be molested by a flashlight Cop herded like a Sheep into a Coral warned not to even sneeze while enroute to my destination lest the claim I am causing a disturbance and the plan diverted where I am greated by the TSA bouncers. This is what the Privelege of being American has come to? Really? Hmmm... Anyone know when the next Boat to "Anywhere but here" leaves?
,,,
/. is broken and I often can't paste into the text box, so no link. However go to ACLU.ORG and search for TSA.
IN fact, they have been calling for a ban of this kind of scanner in airports since 2002
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Just curious to see the "religious freedom" point in there.
So you are saying that if something is a privilege they can do whatever they want to you? How about organ transplant, the doctors give you a new lung but to get it you have to donate a kidney, is that acceptable to you?
Simple: It is invasive in that it invades your privacy, and ineffective in that it is all about the perception of security as opposed to actual security. All this does is look under your clothes. If someone really wanted to smuggle a weapon aboard, they'd carry it inside a bodily orifice. Until the TSA starts doing full-body X-rays of all passengers, then this check-point security is entirely for show.
Personally I am fine with these. I don't care who appears naked on the screen, myself included. I won't loose my mind if attractive woman is scanned or if an unattractive man is either. I consider that part of being a grown up.
People are way too uptight about both their sexuality and their 'security.' This is best thing that could happen to American hypocrisy. IMO this IS an effective technique, but how much do you REALLY care. LOL.
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
Something that amuses me about you Americans is that most of your internet media outlets like /. are so rabidly against the Republicans, but instantly run to the defense of your party of Democrats. Surely they do wrong things, too?
Shopping in Walmart is definitely not a right, but I *do* have a right to not have my balls scanned or grabbed by Walmart staff when using their services.
It's my right to tell you to quit being afraid of your own shadow.
I'm with you.
if you don't like how the system treats you for flying: you have a pair of legs for a reason. start walking.
Even the Air Marshall on planes have been shown to be a over priced ineffective program that is nothing more then a ego feed for people like you who feel the need to have a false sense of security. The full body scanners are the same. Cost a lot and don't really have any effect on security.
Your right, flying is a privilege, but your argument is straw man at best. That is like saying if a restaurant want people to take off all their clothes to enter it should be done because it's a privilege not a right to eat there.
,,,, its just a wee thing
Civil liberties aside, these are necessary to protect us from our selves. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. If ya wanna fly, deal with it. If not, get there another way. Not sure why so many replies are fixated on the pat down and junk touching though. Sounds like people are going to miss it if these scanners are put in place.
Hijackings used to be about money. Passengers would sit them through and get let go when it was all done with a pretty good chance of making it.
Nobody holds to that illusion anymore. Myself (and I'm sure many others) would curb stomp to death anyone who tried to hijack a plane I was on, or die trying. That, and the staff and pilots are better prepared for this now.
These things are just unnecessary.
How does it feel to be a liar with pants constantly on fire?
How many "Guards" have you met, known, dealt with? Most are just twisted enough or suck at lying to the point they fail the psychological or poly or background check for any Law Enforcement position. The pay is McDonalds grade, the job is boring, most of your co-workers have sub standard personal hygien and as a bonus the public pisses on you every chance they get. When you fail to present them the opportunity they create one for themselves. Another words only a sick twisted sociopath with an authoritarian complex works in the Guard industry. Want to guess what I do for a living? Muah Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!
Flying is a privilege, not a right. If you concerned about your freedoms and privacy, then drive or take the train instead of flying. It's not like you don't have options.
I for one am happy they are taking a more proactive roll in screening passengers on flights. It's also MY RIGHT to feel some assurance that the guy sitting next to me isn't planning on hijacking the plane.
Troll much? >:D Flying is required for some people. It's not fun and time consuming taking a train from Boston to San Fransisco, and how else are people supossed to get from NYC to Tokyo... Take a cruise? The point is these machines do not effectively protect you, they are there to give you the illusion that you are being protected. There are much better (and more effective) ways of doing it. The point of this suspension is because these machines are capturing and storing images of people's exposed bodies. Think of it as some TSA employee who is a college student, copies some of these images and puts them online? Wouldn't be much different than a stranger taking pictures of you in the shower and putting them online too. These machines are also ineffective, they do not show everything that you could conceal.
You just dropped trou before the pat down. As long as you still have underwear on, it's not indecent. It would, however, serve to show how ridiculous the whole operation is.
The news isn't that EPIC filed a suit--they did that in July, and the request for an emergency stay was denied. The news is that now they've proceeded to file their opening brief.
Winner takes it all.
The framers of the Constitution of the US had a lively debate on whether or not to include the Bill of Rights. They felt that such an enumeration would lead to damaged thinking about how people get a specific set of rights, listed by a government, and anything else is "not a right." Your post is evidence that the concern was well founded.
I have the absolute and sovereign right to conduct transactions with any other party as I see fit. That includes paying an airline to provide travel services... or a boat company, or a train company, or gasoline vendors so I might power my car. These are my rights, just as providing those services are the rights of those individuals or entities.
The US federal government and its child governments have made decrees that our rightful ability to make such transactions should be hindered or outright prohibited (see drug and prostitution laws).
A free people, in a free country, could easily go about choosing to purchase travel services from whichever entities they choose, and be subject to agreed upon security arrangements with those entities. Some airlines could specialize in extensive strip-searchy, genital-feely security theatrics, and some could specialize on a more distributed "hand every non-drinking passenger a little baseball bat as they board" approach. Then you could exercise your "right to feel" safe, while the rest of us exercise our rights, sans conflict.
What you seek is less and less respect from government, in exchange for absolutely nothing other than a baseless "feeling" of security. Plenty of cowards felt the liquid ban made them safer... until the wannabe crotch-bomber showed them it meant nothing... Plenty of cowards will feel safer now that everyones genitals are felt or photographed, until the next elevation in this arms race. Then the cowards will be ready for the next bit of demeaning, useless, costly garbage, further hindering our freedoms and rights, such as travel at will within the borders of "our" supposed country.
Making the guards feel gay is great and all, but you realize that it's not the guards at the airport that make the rules, right? It's the assholes at corporate headquarters that come up with this shit. The guard just wants to get his paycheck and go home every day, just like everyone else. If he doesn't act like a prick, he'll get fired.
I agree that it is managements fault for hiring the TSA screeners that they do. However in doing so they have effectively condoned the regular asshattery that low wage security guards have inflicted on the traveling public. Case in point was the guy this week who planted fake drugs as practical joke. And this not the only case of TSA screeners being arsehats.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
And we certainly wouldn't want them all to get fired, because then there would be no one left to take naked pictures of us, or grope our crotches.
Hey wait...
Flying is a right. One of the rights we're supposed to have in the US is the ability to freely travel the country. This isn't any more constitutional than it would be to have two roads to a destination. One that's quite long and the other which takes a quarter the time. But the shorter one runs close to some government buildings so they stop every third car for an invasive search complete with feeling up the balls.
What concerns me is that the analogy isn't really that much of a stretch, seeing as the TSA apparently feels entitled to cup every ball in the joint.
If you only have 2 wks vacation, don't go somewhere you have to drive 4 days to get to.
Duh.
What? Do you vapurise if you don't go on holiday 1000 miles or more away???
PS, you can refuse to travel for business. Since most business trips are considered "jollies", you will have no trouble forgoing them, others will be happy to snap them up and, if not, then they can't sack everyone who does the work.
What about cross-dressers and pre-op transsexuals? (I am neither.)
Don't these people have a right to privacy?
Yes. Because they are people, not because they are trannies.
Why is this guy getting modded Troll? It's not a Troll to point out the other side of an argument, even if you think it is wrong.
How does it feel to be a liar with pants constantly on fire?
Wouldn't it make more sense to deploy these machines in non-domestic airports? Just from a security/effectiveness standpoint.
Terrorist could just blow up the waiting queue for the scanner. all air traffic will be stopped that day. just as effective.
Or mail a bomb to stop all mail from a ararib country.
And as pointed out by others: There are still holes in this scanner.
They should charge them with manufacturing child pornography.
-- Erich
Slashdot reader since 1997
Flying is a privilege, not a right. If you concerned about your freedoms and privacy, then drive or take the train instead of flying. It's not like you don't have options.
I for one am happy they are taking a more proactive roll in screening passengers on flights. It's also MY RIGHT to feel some assurance that the guy sitting next to me isn't planning on hijacking the plane.
Personally I think they shouldn't let anyone on a plane with really big hands.
I'd rather walk through a body scanner before boarding a plane than be required to give them my name and other irrelevant information that only helps the government and the airline to track my personal travel and also helps the airline to continue to restrict transferring of tickets.
As a side note, I've always thought it was just "wrong" that the ticket did not just entitle the holder of said ticket to a particular seat on a particular flight regardless of who originally was considering sitting in that seat.
If you dont like it, then dont fly.
"Hey boss, rather than take the 5 hour flight across country to meet with that critical customer in person and sign off on that that big $$$ deal, I'm going to take about 50 hours to drive one way and about the same back. I won't be able to do any work during the trip, but hey, you'll pick up the expenses for this won't you?" .. Yeah as if that will work.
Oh and by the way, you may not have noticed but there are some places you can't get to without flying .. pro tip - take a look at a world atlas and look for all those places separated or surrounded by water
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
Um, *everybody* has a right to privacy, not just some special cases.
PS: The machines won't stop anything, explosives fit inside body cavities just as well as heroin/cocaine does.
No sig today...
When I read the title, I thought CliffyB would be taking on the Airports with his chainsaw-wielding crazyness.
In the beginning, there was null.
Gets me wherever I need to go. No TSA. No airport parking fees. No waiting around. No bullshit. Just 125 knots of bliss...
Want to lose your 1st and 2nd amendment rights? Vote Democrat.
You do realize that, under Obama we signed into law the expansion of gun rights in national parks (was outlawed, now legal)?
Don't paint with too broad a brush.
Now if we could only also vote for those appointed positions that hold so much power (SoS,NSA,CoS, etc).
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
>How about pregnant women? Elderly? Children?
Good point about ionizing radiation. Now that you've mentioned children, shouldn't EPIC have raised the issue of taking naked pictures of kids?
Driving is a privilege and taking a train is a privilege as well.
The only reason they are considered privileges is because you can be banned from them if you prove to be unsafe while using them.
Walking is a right however its never been considered an acceptable method of transportation due to time. Do you know of a way to travel across the country without it taking a month or more with something that is a right and not a privilege?
Boston to San Francisco? Even Los Angeles to San Francisco is, at best, an 11-hour journey by train. I can get there twice as fast by car. I seem to remember that I once found a trip from Los Angeles to New York by train would take six days.
That said, to have a reasonable debate, calling them ineffective because they don't show every possible thing that could be concealed isn't really accurate. They show almost everything that could be concealed under the clothing, and there are limits to what can be hidden in the various orifices. They are not as effective as, say, an X-ray, but they do make it harder to do something like tape a ceramic knife to the inside of the leg.
But the realities, as others have pointed out, have changed. They're not getting into the cockpit anymore. They cannot take enough people hostage without being armed and making up a quarter of the passenger manifest, and that's too large a group to go unnoticed. The biggest risk is sneaking a bomb on-board hidden in an orifice, and these won't catch that. (There's also the risk of sneaking a bomb on-board a carry-on disguised as, say, deodorant or some other permitted item, but that's a separate question involving another scanner.) I would gladly go back to the simple metal-detector/X-ray combination that was in place prior to 9/11, because the overall loss of security is negligible.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
What I want to know is how come the TSA can give me a full body scan at no charge but the hospital wants thousands of dollars to do the same thing?
From what I understand in the US we have a constitutionally guaranteed RIGHT to travel, and air travel is one of the modern methods of "travel". So until they amend the constitution to say that the Fourth Amendment doesn't count when taking air travel, I'll consider searches at airports illegal. And if you want to feel "more secure" (buwahahahahaha) when traveling YOU can take the car/train. Why some people think that EVERYONE ELSE should have to suffer because of their insecurity always escapes me.
Some rights are so obvious the protection thereof just did not occur to the Founding Fathers. They just never imagined the right to vehicular travel could be infringed, would become licensed, and subject to for-all-practical-purposes strip searches.
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
It's about time someone stepped up (wish it was the President, or anyone in government).
"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -
It's also MY RIGHT to feel some assurance that the guy sitting next to me isn't planning on hijacking the plane.
No it's not your right. So, this is your reasoning:
"Oh NO! I want to feel safe! Please government, go ahead and search me and make sure I don't have any weapons so that I'll be safe! Take my Fourth Amendment rights away."
It's that sort of attitude that makes terrorism so effective. Yes, I'm saying people like you allow terrorism to be effective.
Thank you so very little.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
All choices... Dont like having to travel for work? Get a new job.
Swim, take a ship, or dont go. Again, choices.
Hear, hear.
Learn about Photography Basics.
I expected to see Epic Lawsuit because it draws way more clickthrus. /. editing becoming more professional lately?
Is
It's not the flying that's objected to, it's the uninvited third party threatening incarceration and/or death* to anyone who tries to fly without willingly submitting to activity which would be considered assault in any other context. If TSA wasn't a government agency, they'd be facing a cumulative life sentence for such behavior.
(* - yes, death: if you try getting on that plane without being stripped or groped, they will go so far as shooting you if threats don't stop you.)
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
I mean really, each one of these machines cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and are totally ineffective.
If you want to destroy a plane, you do what the US army does and shoot down with a missile. They are cheap, costing thousands of dollars as opposed to hundreds of thousands. And you don't need to do a kamikazee run.
If you want to steel a plane and crash it into a building, then you are out of luck. The single incident that occurred worked because we did not consider it a possibility.
As soon as we knew it was possible, the passengers of United 93 did what they had to do and crashed their own plane.
The idea that it is possible to stop someone from blowing up a plane is almost as ridiculous as the idea that it would be possible for someone else to take another passenger plane hostage. The passengers know better now and we would rise up kill the terrorist with our freakin fingernails before we obeyed him.
How do I know this? Because no terrorist, not a single other incident has succeeded in the past decade of crashing a commercial plane. If the idea had any merit, they would have tried it already. Instead they know how stupid that idea is and stick to trying to blow up planes instead of taking them hostage.
And we can never stop that risk - anymore than we can stop the risk of being hit by a drunk driver. But your chance of being killed by a drunk driver is actually significant.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
I think part of the concern the GP was expressing is because it isn't just a privacy concern for cross-dressers and pre-op transsexuals, it's a safety concern. Those individuals' personal safety depends on their ability to pass as their preferred gender, and forcing them to submit to what amounts to a strip search destroys that ability.
Having read the article posted on the subject a week ago (that I won't link because somebody else already has), I think it's a legitimate concern. It mentionned one person having been arrested after taking a swing at a TSA officer who made a joke about the size of his penis as he walked through the scanner. That isn't exactly the level of professionalism I'd trust for a significantly more sensitive situation like a transsexual....
I'm not against these types of screenings at all. I would prefer them to pat downs or strip searches.
Lets face it. People have to be screened before the board a plane and I prefer the safety that these provide vs being a victim of someones terror. (being blown up, or being touched by a security officer)
I don't mind a body scan, whatever -- I'm like a Greek god anyway -- but freakin' make the damn thing so I don't have to empty my pockets, take my jacket off and remove my shoes.
I'll happily get scanned if I didn't spent a bunch of time and hassle half undressing anyway.
There is probably some off-beat religion that believes it steals their soul, like some used to believe about photography.
Isn't that one of the tenets of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
At least, the C of FSM holds that backscatter X-Ray is bad for its meatballs...
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
There is no safe flight without us. We are what stands between you and a messy demise.
That's a lie. A determined terrorist can get around TSA security easily.
So either STFU, do what we tell you, and enjoy your flight, or don't fly.
My, my, my. Someone's got a God complex! Who the fuck do you think you are? You're just a fucking grunt with a badge. I bet this asshole is the type to cause travelers a lot of shit because he can - Mr. Bigshot TSA screener!
We are the last line of security, and it is our duty to ensure that security is NEVER breached, by anyone foreign or domestic.
Can you believe this idiot?
What this typical government numbnut doesn't understand that by screening us, they're just proving that they have no clue as to who are the threats - they're just casting a big net with the hope of catching someone. They're wasting a lot of time and resources, damaging our health, and diminishing the values that this country stands for. This TSA dipshit will never catch a terrorist. He'll spend his entire career searching for crap and "catching" people who accidentally forgot to leave their pocket knife behind - of course, it goes into the TSA stats as a "thwarted hijack attempt" - typical Government incompetence.
Keep this in mind Mr TSA bigshot, while you're standing around those x-ray machines all day, I hope your health plan is really good.
RIP America
July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001
Groundless stripping & groping normal innocent citizens who just want to fly isn't a power granted government.
Had the Founding Fathers imagined infringement of the right to vehicular travel, no question they would have included it in the Bill of Rights - and realizing they may have missed some, they DID include the catch-all 9th Amendment.
And they DID include an explicit denial of warrant-less searches by government agents, which is what this case is about.
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
If he objects to the things he's asked to do on the job, he should quit. He doesn't have to work for the TSA.
The democrats are half responsible for the near-exponential expansion of the US federal government, measured both in revenue and power over the people, over the past century. The democrats are in the same business of government as the republicans, after all. I suggest we start thinking of politicians and bureaucrats as what they really are: a group of business executives who all work for the same company, each determined to increase the net worth of the business, but of course only for their own personal gain.
Kind of takes the "honor" out of "serving the public", doesn't it?
"your"/"you're" misuse notwithstanding, I don't believe flying should be considered a privilege. I know courts have implicitly decided this, but where does it end? The same security rules could be equally applied to trains. Already, one goes through an inspection station when driving from Nevada to California. What is the right to travel without interference? When walking? When walking naked?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
... he laid it out much better than I did.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
While I appreciate the spirit of your commment...the problem is that it's not just the passengers that can be affected.... Remember that the planes on 9-11 crashed into buildings containing people who had NO agreement with the airline That being said.. I agree that the current TSA nonsense is completely useless... the Israeli method would be far superior
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
In a Capitalistic Society there is SUPPOSED to be competition. That is, anyone is free to start up a company and compete on price, or quality, or any other standard they can compete on.
So, why can't someone start an airline that doesn't require going through security? I see a market for this as we're all fed up with airport security. I'll bet passengers would even pay double to not have to stand in a line for 2 hours only to have the flight canceled and they have to do it all over again tomorrow.
I'd think this is something the Tea Baggers could get behind since it's about capitalism and smaller government. If some dipshit wants to try hijacking the plane in flight, the passengers are free to get out of their seats and beat the guy to death. Also, the airline I propose starting won't oversell every flight and then ask people to take a later flight in exchange for worthless vouchers.
Also, my airline will go back to having good-looking stewardesses in short skirts. It's about time there was some competition in this game. I wonder if I can get Richard Branson on-board with this idea? You can bet that Virgin Galactic won't have these kind of body-scanners to go into space.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
I'm not against these types of screenings at all. I would prefer them to pat downs or strip searches.
Lets face it. People have to be screened before the board a plane and I prefer the safety that these provide vs being a victim of someones terror. (being blown up, or being touched by a security officer)
Then refuse to be a victim YOURSELF. The authorities cannot (some would argue will not) stop every possible threat. If we can't keep drugs, shivs, shanks, cellphones, and zip guns out of prisons what makes you think we can stop threats with less than prison level security at airports?
Chap next you tries to light his shoes on fire? You punch him in the skull holler for help and don't stop until he stops being a threat.
Achmed starts acting funny and pulling something out of his ass? You do what you have to do to stop the threat.
Someone mugs you and seems to want more than your wallet? You fight, stab, kick, and shoot until he stops being a threat.
Fall down and get injured? You had damn well better be able to patch yourself up enough to get to where you can get professional help.
You may be comfortable being a victim and relying on centralized services to be there all the time and be omniscient. I am not.
Flying is a privilege, not a right. If you concerned about your freedoms and privacy, then drive or take the train instead of flying. It's not like you don't have options.
I for one am happy they are taking a more proactive roll in screening passengers on flights. It's also MY RIGHT to feel some assurance that the guy sitting next to me isn't planning on hijacking the plane.
No, it is not your right to feel assurance. It is our right to be secure in our person and effects against unreasonable search. Since the TSA are government employees, they should abide by th Constitution.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
It should be noted that these body scanners are unsafe for airport and airline employees. Since we work day in and day out, moving between the concourses and counters, we get even higher doses of backscatter radiation from these devices. I certainly don't want excess doses of radiation. The government will tell you that you get more radiation flying or even being in the sun. Logic will say that the radiation you get from these backscatter machines still counts against your lifetime dose and anyone who truly believes the government needs to go to the bridge-buying auction.
No, but it's something I pay a lot of money for. It would be one thing if the flight was $25 and I was hassled. But it's not. The flight is over $100 each way (easily) plus extras if I check a bag. And you don't even get a meal anymore. So just so we're clear, it's more expensive, you get less, and it's more of a hassle.
I'd deal with the hassle if it was less expensive and you got more legroom. But you don't.
For what I spend to fly, I could have a very nice dinner with an attractive lady AND get stellar service from the restaurant (and possibly stellar service from the lady as well).
So, what am I getting from the airline? I'm treated as criminal from the moment I enter the airport, I'm crammed into an aluminum tube (if I'm lucky and the flight isn't canceled or oversold) that is noisy and smells bad, I get nothing but a coke and some peanuts. And when you add up the total hours spent from door to door, flying is only marginally faster than some other means (for short trips). When you're going NY to LA, that's a different story. So my question to you is: What am I getting for my money? Shouldn't I be treated better as a customer? This is the only capitalistic society I know of where the customer is always wrong.
Seriously, those screaming Obamacare is socialism need to take a hard look at the rest of their society before making a complaint -- because what we've got here sure isn't capitalism and democracy. I'm not sure what it is, but I know it's not that.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Moron ever hear of something called a webinar, or maybe video conferencing. Polycom makes wonderful tools that saves the cost of the 5 hour plane trip. The pro's and smart companies have already decided that give all-expense paid vacations to the worthless MBA's is wasting precious resources that can be used to make the company innovative and successful.
Your guy didn't win in 2000.... and that was over ten years ago. The protests were filed and it even went to the U.S. Supreme Court in spite of the fact that court didn't really even have jurisdiction over the matter. Of course the Al Gore supporters weren't about to let the real constitutional mechanism take care of the problem by letting the U.S. House of Representatives decide the outcome.
The election was close, which is why it became the fiasco that it became. It wasn't "beating Bush like a Gong", as had Florida been as clear cut as to the victor in the state as California was in that same election, it wouldn't have even been an issue.
Give it a rest.
BTW, I agree that Obama should be governing in the way that he said he would when he was campaigning... presuming that you could find some consistent thoughts among the various things he said he was going to do during that campaign. He at least did follow through with Health Care, in spite of the damage that did to the Democratic Party in this election in terms of lost seats.
there are some places you can't get to without flying .. pro tip - take a look at a world atlas and look for all those places separated or surrounded by water
Some day someone will invent some sort of "floating car" that will allow us to cross water. It will be awesome.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
Just you wait until someone does blow up a plane and went through the body scanner. Sooner or later they will make a bomb from threads of C-4 or whatever, sew it into a set of pants and shirt, and then we'll have to fly naked because the TSA is scared of clothing.
They are already scared of shoes, toothpaste, hair gel, nail clippers, bottled water, yadda-yadd, ad-infinitum.
Here's what I don't get. We had the "shoe-bomber" which in turn, made the TSA remove and inspect our shoes. Then last year we had the "underwear-bomber"... So how come the TSA doesn't make us remove and inspect our underwear?
Just wait till some guy detonates a bomb he shoved up his ass. Then it's cavity searches for all.
And the airline industry will slowly crumble from pissed off passengers refusing to fly. Or we'll just accept it by that time, just as we now accept the humiliation we currently go through.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
The size of government is becoming larger. This is, of course, what ultimately allows the people in power to use technology against us: they now have the means, both in terms of revenue and power, to do it. The root of everything we are talking about is that government is becoming larger, both in terms of revenue and power over the people.
Whether we want to admit it or not, the size of government is more or less inversely proportional to the amount of freedom. A government big enough to "give you everything you want" is, by necessity, big enough to take everything you have (meaning your freedom and self-ownership).
Won't do me any good. I still have to go through Canada to get to the rest of the country, and IIRC, Customs has been using backscatter x-ray for a couple of years now. While I did hear a story about a guy walking on water a little while back, I'm not to jazzed about my prospects of hiking a couple thousand miles over the Pacific Ocean to get...well...anywhere else.
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
Seriously. Instead of trying to rally support for a specific 3rd party candidacy, which never works, vote for yourself. If a huge number of people do this it will be a clear strike against the existing power establishment, and show the illegitimacy of the two parties.
Don't pat downs and strip searches take more time, though? If so, it would drain even more of their time. Think of it as a form of protest. If everyone puts up with these 'safety measures' designed to fight those evil 'terrorists' that only manage to invade our privacy, nothing will ever change.
"prefer the safety that these provide"
They don't really provide that much safety in reality. Not to mention that people who give up their freedom and privacy in exchange for a sense of security are an absolute disgrace. Governments take advantage of this fear and use it against you.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
It may be gone for now, but it will come back. Memories are short. 50 years from now, this will all be a very dim social memory, most people alive won't have been born when 9/11 happened, and people will turn back into sheep. They always do.
As a US citizen flying within the US, it deeply offends all Pastafarians when they use body scanners.
Only pirates have been allowed to see beneath our clothes, according to The Noodly One.
STEP AWAY FROM THAT BLASPHEMOUS SCANNER!
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
The political system in the U.S. is FUBAR. The only "vote" we have these days is with our dollars. Don't like being treated like a criminal or a porn star at the airport? Stop flying. Or, if you're running a company, cut back on corporate air travel by 50%. Use teleconferencing. Plan ahead and take the train. I haven't flown anywhere since 2000. But, I've traveled all over the country by train. When you decide to stop flying, make sure you tell them why you're not flying. Their response can be quite entertaining.
When I canceled my cable TV subscription back in 2006, they (Time/Warner) asked why I was leaving. I told them I was sick and tired of paying over $100/month to watch commercials. I was particularly outraged at the (usually animated) self-promotion ads that ran at the bottom of the screen during the show or movie I was trying to watch. The T/W customer "support" person's response was, "Well, sir, we don't have any control over that. Those are decisions made by the network." To which I replied that Time/Warner owned TBS and TBS was, at the time, one of the biggest (ab)users of this type of TV spam. Her response? Dead silence. Made my day.
If the airlines (big corporations) start feeling the economic heat (sometimes just the well-orchestrated threat of economic heat), you will be amazed at how fast things will change in Washington. And at the airport. But, you have to make sure you tell them why you're leaving and taking your dollars with you.
One "Aw, Shit!" is worth 100 "Ata boys!"
not everyone wants people to look at their junk. Just go to L.A. and make a porn movie if you need people to look at it so bad.
Polycom makes wonderful tools that saves the cost of the 5 hour plane trip. The pro's and smart companies have already decided that give all-expense paid vacations to the worthless MBA's is wasting precious resources that can be used to make the company innovative and successful.
Polycom: Because $500,000 conference room installs are soooo much cheaper than flying a couple of people across the country.
There are better security systems than these full body scanners. It shouldn't be necessary for us to sue the government to get them to scrap them. These things have routinely failed to detect explosives in fairly simple testing. Microwave scanners are great for many things, but stopping bombs is not one of them. If they want to detect explosives or chemical agents, then why not use detectors for explosives and chemical agents? It is mind boggling to me that they have invested so much in this technology, when it's obviously technologically and ethically flawed.
... and no, that I work on chemical sensors plays *no* role in my arguments against these things... really...
naked pictures of people from these devices will end up on the internet. I give it 6 months before the first scandal.
Since when did your right to that comfy, warm, snuggly, "big-brother is watching out for you" feeling trump my right to privacy and freedom from unreasonable search? Don't like the risk of someone sneaking a weapon on board the airplane? Don't fly. Flying on an aircraft isn't a right...
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
I wonder if a Farraday cage would block the effect of the scanner, and if so, how long it will be before someone sews x-ray blocking mesh into some clothes for sale, like the AACS Encryption key T-shirt I have in the closet ;)
Tell that to my boss...
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
So, by your definition, the folks laying road bombs in Iraq to drive out the US would not be categorized as terrorists. Is this correct?
(NB: I'm not laying judgment one way or the other, just trying to ascertain how your definition applies to other more modern situations.)
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
It takes the resources of a rich nation to pull something like this off (innuendo intended). The Church had that in the past; now, not so much.
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Flying is no longer a priv. It is expected of you by our society. In many cases you cannot afford to do anything other than fly. Life isn't like "rain man" any more. Tell your boss next time why you won't fly and you'll be added to the unemployment rolls.
Why should getting on an airplane be any more difficult than getting on a public bus, train or subway? The drivers are more secure on an airplane than any of those, and with a subway or surface train as many or more lives can be put at risk potentially.
You are exercising your freedom when you choose to fly. You agree to the restrictions up front. I don't see a problem here. Don't like the restrictions, drive. That is my choice.
Once we put them on street corners, then we can talk.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Concerns over personal safety do not grant you rights. Rights are for all.
Good point. Any surprising new attack method can imperil innocent bystanders, etc...
However, within about 1 hour, air passengers of the world learned the methodology of that surprise attack and precluded it from ever being effective again. The fourth plane didn't hit a building due to this factor. No government measures of any kind whatsoever were necessary to effect this change. Zero cost to tax payers.
In a related suit against the US Marshall Service, EPIC also obtained 35,000 stored images from a single body scanner operated in a courthouse.
Link?
A free people, in a free country, could easily go about choosing to purchase travel services from whichever entities they choose, and be subject to agreed upon security arrangements with those entities. Some airlines could specialize in extensive strip-searchy, genital-feely security theatrics, and some could specialize on a more distributed "hand every non-drinking passenger a little baseball bat as they board" approach. Then you could exercise your "right to feel" safe, while the rest of us exercise our rights, sans conflict.
Another idealist. Welcome to the real world, please make note of the location of the emergency exists, as you may have noticed, there are none.
Markets do not work that way except in textbooks. What more likely happens is that the vast majority of airlines would move in on some common ground that covers the majority of customers, and everyone else is left either with some special (and expensive) service, or with no options. More likely than not, the common ground wouldn't even be what the customer wants, but what they can make him believe he wants, and is cheapest.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
But there are checkpoints on the freeways!
Here are the ones run by border patrol near Mexico (and one in Nevada): http://maps.google.com/maps?q=border+patrol+checkpoint
There are more on the Canadian border, but I couldn't find any maps. You may be able to scroll through these results: http://www.google.com/search?q=map+checkpoint+freeway
At these checkpoints, drivers have no choice -- if the TSA decides to start using pat-downs, you have to submit.
I got a laugh from this page: http://www.ferretsanonymous.com/checkpoints/checkpoints.html. (How to bypass some of the California checkpoints, especially if you're bringing your pet Ferret!)
I just booked a flight for next week.
I'll refuse the nude-scanner, and if TSA agents apply the new policy of intrusive pat-downs, I'll sue the TSA for sexual assault, emotional distress, torture (the purpose of the new intrusive pat-down is to force us to use the nude scanner), and anything else I can think of. I'll demand $1 Million for the assault, $100k per agent involved, and $10k per witness of my humiliation. I will then demand compensation for the phobia of uniforms this has caused me, as well as phobia of flying and phobia of crowded places.
I'll also demand compensation for the emotional distress my wife and kids suffered after seeing me be sexually assaulted. They will also develop phobias about flying, uniforms and crowded areas for which I'll also demand compensation. My wife and I will be so traumatized we both won't be able to have sexual relations anymore. We will all also develop a phobia of going on vacation, and anything that reminds us of New York, such as TV shows based in New York or T-shirts that say "I Love NY) (New York is our destination).
If the agent has a particular feature, like a beard, tattoo or anything else, I'll develop a phobia to that too. I will be forced to quit my job because some colleagues have a beard/tattoo/whatever and one is from NY, so I'll demand compensation for that too.
Overall I predict my family and I will be awarded at least $100 Million by the court.
On a serious tone now:
The TSA are supposed to apply laws and only have the power given to them by other authorities. Just like police forces don't make laws and can't suddenly decide that they can beat suspects to get confessions.
The TSA can not give just itself the right to perform an act that is illegal. That is not up to them at all. When police officers got the right to perform cavity searches, this right was given to them by another body of authority, the police did not give itself this right. Also, actions that are normally considered illegal can only be done under special circumstances, usually when the people the action if performed on have done something illegal (cavity searches can only be done when people are arrested). So, even though the TSA is a body of government authority, intrusive pat-downs that involve touching private parts with hands are sexual assault and are illegal until a law says otherwise.
Suing the TSA over intrusive pat-downs is possible, and such a lawsuit would be easy to win.
I am circulating a petition which I plan to mail to our various representatives in congress regarding this issue. If you feel the government should stop the use of these infernal contraptions, please sign my petition. Please help spread the link around to whoever you can. Post it on your facebook; website, email your friends.
http://www.petitiononline.com/BodyScan/petition.html
Curious about Storage and Virtualization? Check out
'nuff said
Chap next you tries to light his shoes on fire? You punch him in the skull holler for help and don't stop until he stops being a threat. Achmed starts acting funny and pulling something out of his ass? You do what you have to do to stop the threat. Someone mugs you and seems to want more than your wallet? You fight, stab, kick, and shoot until he stops being a threat.
The price of freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness. - R.A. Heinlein
You are wrong about absolutely everything you stated.
So, it's "unnecessary" to screen passengers and property for bombs?
I don't know if you've been paying attention, so I'll clue you in. The attacks on 9/11 were shocking in how "the plane became the bomb" and did such catastrophic damage. Go backwards through history and you'll find that not all attacks are about hijacking. Hundreds of lives have been lost in straightforward plane-bombings. No subterfuge or agenda regarding the passengers on the plane; the bombers believe, the more people that die, the better. Dogs are not 100% effective (as another respondent would claim) and cannot be utilized 24/7. Airports don't take a break, but people and animals have to, at some point.
Drive that keyboard of yours and take a peek at aviation history. Find out exactly how big those bombs were--the ones that actually went off--and you might start to gain a perspective on security. Add to those the threats of chemical and biological agents and you may start to see why these measures are in place.
If that Yemeni mail-bomb wasn't caught, or went off en-route to Chicago, you would be signing a far different tune, my friend. You have no idea the threats that have been caught and neutralized because of these efforts. Educate thyself, then maybe--just maybe--you'll have a valid argument.
Why the hell is this "interesting"?
X86Daddy makes their point about having the right to make their "consumer vote" wherever he or she wants. That's fine.
The language (e.g, "decrees that our rightful ability...should be...prohibited") makes a purely emotional stance on what government administration actually does. I'm sorry, that only compels me to resent your opinion, X86Daddy, but not the government.
While I could quickly dismiss this as "tea party-ist banter", I'll take a slightly longer moment to factually dismiss it.
The word "free" describes a very broad topic, and presents a very broad context. What is "free" exactly? Ask 10 people, and you get 10 different answers. For that reason alone, I cannot be persuaded that merely using the word provides a foundation for your argument.
I'm not aware of the "you" being used in your posting, as it seems that X86Daddy is addressing someone that has very little common sense. (seeking "less and less respect from government") Do you know someone like that, X86Daddy? Make sure they stay on their meds.
Also, remember that the "crotch-bomber", as you put it, did not succeed. Nor did the Christmas Shoe Bomber, though that plan was a comedy of errors when compared to the stringent screening processes in place today.
Come up with a compelling argument next time, then maybe you'll earn those mod points.
For fuck's sake, the Bill of Rights does not grant us any rights at all...it LIMITS how the government can impose on our rights to do....well...really whatever the fuck we want, provided we are not infringing on other's rights. We don't need a constitutional amendment stating clearly by our founding fathers that we have a right to fly from D.C. to San Fran. on an A-380 without getting an anal probe. We have that right to begin with and congress shall make no law requiring us to have an anal probe to fly on an A-380...(or something like that...I may be para-phrasing here)