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When DLC Goes Wrong

kube00 writes "Poorly done downloadable content is one of a gamer's worst nightmares right now. Where a publisher stands to make some money, gamers get screwed. Whether it's the overpriced extra maps/costumes DLC, on-the-disc-at-launch DLC, or DLC that is nothing more than a remake of other content, no game is safe from bad DLC. That includes Modern Warfare 2, Bioshock 2, Uncharted 2 and a host of many other popular games. Is there a chance to fix this system?"

261 comments

  1. Yes! by zcomuto · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When people realise this, and stop buying DLC.

    1. Re:Yes! by sg_oneill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Some DLC is great. The Undead Nightmare DLC for Red Dead was practically an entirely new game, and both the Gay Tony & whatever the biker one was called where both great content add ons for Grand theft auto.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    2. Re:Yes! by bhcompy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Gay Tony is what you call an expansion pack. It is a completely new campaign, rather than a package of costumes and multiplayer maps. It also provided more gameplay time as a cheap expansion than Medal of Honor or CoD:BO in their full $60 campaign splendor.

    3. Re:Yes! by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      DLC can be good for experimental game ideas. Most of the fallout 3 DLC took place in different settings than the main game, there were some interesting ideas in there. Some were utter failures, mothership zeta was terrible. On the other hand, point lookout was great, and most of my favorite fallout 3 experiences were from that.

      Obsidian loses points though for making the end of the game contained in a DLC. I don't know if they had the original ending and decided they could do better (which would be more legitimate) or if they decided they'd be losing money to put all that content in one game (less respectable) or if they decided they could squeeze more out of us by breaking it up (woudn't put it past them).

      However it happened, it was a good game and I didn't think twice about buying New Vegas.

    4. Re:Yes! by Starteck81 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Considering how well Zynga is doing selling virtual items in games like Farmville, Mafia Wars I suspect that we will only see this trend grow.

      --
      "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed H
    5. Re:Yes! by ratinox · · Score: 5, Informative

      Obsidian loses points though for making the end of the game contained in a DLC. I don't know if they had the original ending and decided they could do better (which would be more legitimate) or if they decided they'd be losing money to put all that content in one game (less respectable) or if they decided they could squeeze more out of us by breaking it up (woudn't put it past them).

      However it happened, it was a good game and I didn't think twice about buying New Vegas.

      Are you referring to the Fallout 3 Broken Steel DLC, which raised the level cap to 30 and allowed the game to continue past the original cutscene-to-menu ending once the main plotline had been completed? If so, I think you meant "Bethesda", as Obsidian are only responsible for developing New Vegas.

      As far as I can recall, the decision to expand the "endgame" in Broken Steel came about as a result of request from fans who wanted to continue playing past the conclusion of the story. I seem to remember some BethSoft employee being quoted as saying they never anticipated that people would enjoy their game that much...

    6. Re:Yes! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I seem to remember some BethSoft employee being quoted as saying they never anticipated that people would enjoy their game that much...

      Which sounds weak. After all, Fallout 2 allowed it - why shouldn't the fans expect the same of the new game?

    7. Re:Yes! by conares · · Score: 0

      When people realise this, and stop buying DLC.

      I wonder if this whole vote with your wallet even works anymore.... People not buying the DLC and the fat guys in suits are gonna think there was too much content included in the shipped game to begin with. What we need most of all I think is a modchip for the PS3, the game houses have had a free ride for far to long. Piracy is the only real competition these days.

      --
      That, that really grinds my gears!
    8. Re:Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They probably didn't expect people to enjoy it so much because of the utter insanity that was then reaction of a large number of the original fallout fans. It was worse than Star Wars fans reactions to THe Phantom Menace and UK students reactions to higher University fees.

      To paraphrase an old joke: If Hitler, Bin Laden and an original fallout game fan where standing in front of me and I had a gun with two bullets I'd shoot the fallout fan twice to make sure. Probably in the face.

      For the record I have played all the fallout games multiple time buy purchased them all on release day but I no longer consider myself a fallout fan as I do not wish to be associated with the fan base.

    9. Re:Yes! by icebraining · · Score: 4, Informative

      An expansion pack you download is a DLC.

    10. Re:Yes! by ratinox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't know about weak; I'd maybe go for "naive", especially since they were producing a very sandbox-y game. However, it's worth mentioning that it was a completely different development studio, so it's hardly surprising that their design goals would be different. Personally, I think it was laudable of them to actually listen to their fans and provide the functionality they asked for, rather than simply ignoring them as so many studios seem to.

    11. Re:Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mothership Zeta was the best.

    12. Re:Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely. Maybe other software publishers should look at Rockstar because they have it absolutely right, both the DLC's for GTA IV were fricking amazing. For anyone that doesn't know, the DLC's are called "The Lost and Damned" and "The ballad of Gay Tony", and the lead characters in both of them appear in minor roles in GTA IV proper. The three stories intertwine and revolve around the same pivotal element, a bunch of stolen diamonds. There's a common mission to all 3 episodes, the musuem diamond deal -- in GTA IV you play as Niko Bellic, in TLaD you play as Johnny Klebitz and in TboGT you play as Luis Lopez. It's pretty cool watching the story unfold from 3 different perspectives, as is watching the events that lead up to the point all 3 lead characters meet and the consequences of said meeting. All in all, the two DLC's combined add almost as much game time as GTA IV itself, while adding a bunch of new vehicles, weapons, mini-games, etc.

      I haven't played The Undead Nightmare yet (thanks a lot Microsoft, 3 Xboxes and the 3 of them died with RRoD, I'm buying a PS3 now), but considering how fricking brilliant Red Dead Redemption is, it must be awesome as well.

      So, yeah, while pretty much every other DLC is crap, Rockstar doesn't fail to deliver. I really can't wait for Agent, LA Noir and GTA V.

    13. Re:Yes! by mjwx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      DLC can be good for experimental game ideas. Most of the fallout 3 DLC took place in different settings than the main game

      But Fallout 3 was sold at full price as a complete game. DLC came months after release.

      Some games are being sold in half with DLC being made available 5 minutes after release.

      Now I have no issue when a developer and publisher creates additional content, traditionally this was released as an expansion pack or more recently the phenomenon of "expand-alones" such as ARMA Operation Arrowhead or Fallout New Vegas but when a publisher only sells you half the game and then tries to charge you $10 to see the ending, that's what is wrong with DLC.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    14. Re:Yes! by cob666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know about weak; I'd maybe go for "naive", especially since they were producing a very sandbox-y game. However, it's worth mentioning that it was a completely different development studio, so it's hardly surprising that their design goals would be different. Personally, I think it was laudable of them to actually listen to their fans and provide the functionality they asked for, rather than simply ignoring them as so many studios seem to.

      Yes but the ability to play past the conclusion of the primary quest should have been built into a patch instead of requiring the user to pay for DLC just to get the option.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    15. Re:Yes! by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      and both the Gay Tony & whatever the biker one was called where both great content add ons for Grand theft auto.

      The problem with both of these was that they were far too short. Compared to the original campaign they are a drop in the ocean only containing far less missions. There were 25 missions in the Ballad of Gay Tony compared to nearly 100 in the original game. Being that to buy them you end up paying close to the original value of the game you should get more missions, not less (including the saving they made on not developing or shipping a new game engine)

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    16. Re:Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I enjoyed the way they did this, too. I played through the original on PC before there was any DLC, with Fawkes as my companion, and when I asked him to take the hit in the chamber he refused, saying it was "my destiny". Playing through the XBOX version with the DLC, in the same situation Fawkes says (paraphrasing), "ordinarily I would have said it's your destiny, but I will do this since you've changed mine" - a big nod to the dialogue option before the change and quite amusing, I think.

    17. Re:Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a lot of words to say "Never".

    18. Re:Yes! by wjousts · · Score: 1

      But they we're a lot cheaper than GTA IV. I agree I would have loved to have them be longer, but I got the boxed DVD with both DLC for about $30 and felt it was a reasonable deal (I would have preferred maybe $20).

    19. Re:Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know you can't play past the end of New Vegas either, don't you?

    20. Re:Yes! by Tomsk70 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just like when people will realise The Sims is pointless, Tagamotchi's are pointless, and ipods are a rip off, right?

    21. Re:Yes! by ratinox · · Score: 1

      Nope; I haven't completed it yet since I'm taking my time and enjoying the scenery. Thanks for the headsup, though, I'll make sure I've got a savegame just prior to completing the main plot. That worked just fine in Fallout 3 pre Broken Steel...

    22. Re:Yes! by ratinox · · Score: 1

      I agree, however the pre-Broken Steel solution of saving just prior to the end of the main plot worked just fine for me. The main reason I bought Broken Steel was for the increased level cap, extra missions, new weapons and armour. Being able to continue past the "end" of the game was just an ancillary benefit.

    23. Re:Yes! by Ironchew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wonder if this whole vote with your wallet even works anymore...

      It never has worked. Even with a novelty like video games -- if gamers aren't in direct control of the development cycle (console manufacturers see to it that the hardware is as locked-down as possible), we take what the centralized industry gives us. Really, the only way to "vote" is not to get the console in the first place and develop a competing game on an open platform. That will get their attention.

    24. Re:Yes! by revlayle · · Score: 1

      Playing after the end game in Fallout 2 is seriously broken. No one really responds to the end game condition anywhere, except for in New Reno (and a wee bit of Vault City), and that is all just dialog and more of the excessive in-jokes. Ok, you can find the "hint book" at the Church... just a silly cheat device. Really all you can do it just wander around the wasteland and beat up baddies or do caravans. I found out that Fallout 2 got REALLY boring after the Oil Rig went ka-blooie.

    25. Re:Yes! by Technician · · Score: 1

      The best DLC I have ever used is the few games that permit users to create and share content. Some is crap, some is excellent, but most of it is creative and unique.

      Unreal Tournament and it's T rated cousin Nerf Arena was a blast trying user generated maps. One of my favorite was a map of a bathroom on a giant scale. There were secret passages in the wall, blasters at the bottom of the full tub, great sniping positions under the sink, over the mirror, on the linen cabinet, etc.

      User generated worlds can be very creative.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    26. Re:Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As you note, I think the Fallout 3 DLC came as a result of players pointing out illogical, irrational aspects of the original ending and wanting to see more beyond that.

      My problem isn't the content of the DLC, it's the incredibly, unbelievably crappy technical implementation of it. It's mind-boggling to me how little thought seems to have been put into things like actually being able to install the DLC and play it.

      Even though I own all of the DLC for Fallout 3, I still haven't been able to play some of it because of bugs in the installation software. I hesitate to call them "bugs"--they're more like mutant superbugs that essentially break the DLC. I realize that "I can't install the software" doesn't seem like the most compelling complaint, but I know there are many others out there who are the same--who just basically gave up. I program, administer linux servers in a professional capacity, have built my own systems for fun, etc.--not to brag, but I think I should be able to install some DLC for a game.

      I love Fallout 3, so I'm not knocking the game or the decision to release DLC. I just think that Fallout 3 DLC does fall into the general category of "DLC with massive problems that is unjustified given the money you pay for it."

    27. Re:Yes! by bhcompy · · Score: 1

      To be fairly literal, DLC just means content. The majority of stuff offered as "DLC" are not expansion packs. Expansion packs may be downloadable content, but that doesn't mean the inverse is true.

    28. Re:Yes! by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Nor did I ever say that a DLC is an expansion pack.

    29. Re:Yes! by Amouth · · Score: 1

      UK students reactions to higher University fees.

      i'm calling too soon.. i think some of them are still at it..

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    30. Re:Yes! by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Or just find something else that you enjoy doing instead of assuming your life will be incomplete without playing the latest AAA games titles.

      I haven't bought a new big-budget AAA bells-and-whistles game for at least a couple of years. I just got fed up with:

      • worst of all, the crappy reliability with crashes all the time in every such game I had bought for several years, often without any patch in the useful lifetime of the game;
      • DRM and related technologies that inconvenience me at best, outright spoil my experience if they go wrong, and by their nature pose a threat to the integrity of any computer they are installed on; and
      • lack of any real innovation in most games anyway, since new gameplay ideas have been almost entirely replaced by new graphics engines, any deep immersion/substance/storyline tends to be thrown out in favour of endless but monotonous on-line gaming, and control systems and game mechanics on the PC are mostly dumbed down to make an easy console port.

      Lately, we can add the whole DLC not-buying-a-whole-game-anyway thing. I was all ready to try out Dragon Age: Origins when it came out, until I read numerous reports that you get characters with some sort of quest marker over their heads right at the start of the game, get to listen to them leading you into their story, and then get hit with a "now put in your credit card number" kind of message. I don't know how much money the gaming industry really make pulling that kind of stunt in the short term, but I guarantee they have lost at least one fairly profitable customer in the long term.

      If anyone knows of any counterexamples on PC from the past couple of years, please do suggest them, but I get the feeling no-one has made a Doom or Deus Ex or Baldur's Gate or even Supreme Commander for a long time.

      Meanwhile, casual gaming has made PopCap and Zynga rich, and are now the only things our household spends real money on in the gaming market. They mostly have simple but novel game mechanics, they are fun to play, they don't come with any of the crap I mentioned above, and as far as downloading goes, we can easily buy them and install them, which is all we need the "downloadable" part for.

      Other than that, we watch stuff on TV, go out and enjoy our various hobbies, invite friends round for dinner or to play board games at the weekend, and basically find other ways to enjoy our leisure time.

      Basically, AAA games have become overpriced, unreliable, unpleasant, cookie-cutter crap, so we don't buy them any more. If that sucks for the game studios, don't look this way for sympathy. They don't get some magic entitlement to our hard-earned money, and for what they charge these days for a game that might last me a few hours if it even works at all, we could go out and enjoy a decent meal for two and then go somewhere nice afterwards.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    31. Re:Yes! by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

      The obvious answer is to avoid purchasing games that are released with DLC content available right away.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    32. Re:Yes! by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      To be fair to some games that have gone gold and gone to be pressed to disc are essentially the "final product". Of course they're going to keep working on things like bugfixes (to be deployed later as patches), but it's conceivable that they could also use the time from when pressing & packaging starts until the product is in stores to make DLC that would be ready at or near launch. I'm sure that there's also leftover content that could be repurposed towards DLC (examine the source files of nearly any game and you'll find leftover, unused content in there).

      I am fairly certain that there are more than a few game companies that release DLC right away by taking content from the original game in order to make a few bucks, but it's very much possible that a few just managed to crank something worthwhile out in the time between pressing and release.

    33. Re:Yes! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Not any different than most other games which allow it, then. If there was more to the storyline of the game after the end, then it wouldn't really be the end, you know.

    34. Re:Yes! by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I am fairly certain that there are more than a few game companies that release DLC right away by taking content from the original game in order to make a few bucks

      Only a few, like 2K and activision.

      It takes time and effort to create new art assets, levels and scripting. Not to mention testing all of this. If you can release DLC within a week of release as 2K did with Mafia 2 then you made a conscious decision to remove content from release so it can be sold after the games release.

      I highly doubt that content can be easily created between pressing and release, there just isn't enough time to go through QA.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    35. Re:Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I enjoyed the way they did this, too. I played through the original on PC before there was any DLC, with Fawkes as my companion, and when I asked him to take the hit in the chamber he refused, saying it was "my destiny". Playing through the XBOX version with the DLC, in the same situation Fawkes says (paraphrasing), "ordinarily I would have said it's your destiny, but I will do this since you've changed mine" - a big nod to the dialogue option before the change and quite amusing, I think.

      Thats odd. When I did that exact thing on my PS3 version (that had the BS DLC) Fawkes looked at me and said something around the lines of "Thats a great idea. I will not be harmed since I'm immune to the radiation'".

    36. Re:Yes! by jianan4115 · · Score: 0

      With the sense of wrong move will stop after Buy final Fantasy XIV golds

    37. Re:Yes! by Phopojijo · · Score: 1

      We're screwed.

    38. Re:Yes! by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      If anyone knows of any counterexamples on PC from the past couple of years, please do suggest them, but I get the feeling no-one has made a Doom

      I'm sorry, but really? DOOM as a counter example? The game that literally made it's way onto the market by shipping as an incomplete game.

      Granted we ARE now paying for things that used to be considered shareware, but as far as analogies go, DOOM is pretty much one of the successful examples for the birth of the DLC movement.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    39. Re:Yes! by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Sorry, a late edit broke my logic. I meant the games I listed to be examples where there was some innovation in the gameplay or some sort of immersive storyline or a control system that actually made use of the flexibility of a PC, i.e., the final bullet in my list, and where the experience wasn't spoiled automatically by crashing all the time and draconian DRM systems (though the 2GB limit did spoil SupCom on large maps, and requiring a CD in the drive to play a game is irritating).

      That said, I don't think anything id ever did with their early games really compares to the plague of DLC and half-finished, bug-ridden crap we seem to be seeing over the past couple of years. The always-on, broadband-everywhere infrastructure needed to support DLC and patch-after-shipping just didn't exist when Doom was the new big thing.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    40. Re:Yes! by Samfer · · Score: 1

      I agree, I've had some bad experiences with some games of late (eg. Milsim series) where the developer continuously is releasing botched patches in the hopes of pressuring its user base to purchase DLC's for a game where the majority of the mod / grass roots produced content is already on par if not better than the DLC content itself. That's why I make sure to personally support community's like Operation Reality when it comes to milsim series because they don't fall into the pressure laid out by certain developers as the majority out there seem to. You know, the whole "because the developer" releases and markets it means it is a "must have" for a particular game, or because it costs money means it somehow must be of better quality than community released content. Bah, gimme a break!

  2. Fuck you, developers. by Stormwatch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If I pay for a game, it damn better be a COMPLETE game. But these days, they sell incomplete games now and the missing parts later. DLC is nothing but a scam.

    1. Re:Fuck you, developers. by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I disagree with that broad statement. If I'm interested in the DLC, I probably felt like the game itself had good value. If I didn't thoroughly enjoy a game, I'm not going to be paying them any more money. What's a "complete" game anyway? I'd rather play a good short game than a tedious long one.

      Furthermore, if DLC comes out months after a game is released, it indicates the devs didn't just decide to withhold content for a premium. And I can understand being in a situation like "We have this interesting side story to develop, but that would push back the release date a few months." I'd rather have that option to extend the game if I'm enjoying it.

    2. Re:Fuck you, developers. by interactive_civilian · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If I pay for a game, it damn better be a COMPLETE game. But these days, they sell incomplete games now and the missing parts later. DLC is nothing but a scam.

      While I agree with this in principle, I have not yet bought a game that I felt the base-game was incomplete and the DLC felt like a money-grubbing scam. The closest was maybe Borderlands, mainly because the base game storyline was pretty weak. BUT, it was still a damn fun game, even only in the base game. The DLC enhances and extends the game and makes it significantly better, to the extent one might argue that the DLC should have just been part of the original, but I don't fault them too much for it. I think GearBox did alright with their compromise between putting out a game within a reasonable timeframe and putting out a game with all possible content (including stuff you may not have thought of or developed yet).

      A lot of people hate on Bioshock 2, especially for PC after the recent no-DLC-for-PC debacle. For my part, I was very disappointed that Minerva's Den DLC was not coming for PC, mainly because the console users said it was quite good. But, I'd already felt I bought a complete game, so even with this, it was a case of missing out on truly EXTRA content. (And, apparently, they've decided to port Minerva's Den after all... someday)

      And, as for DLC done right, one only has to look at Valve and everything they've done for TF2, L4D, and L4D2. And, they release it for free!

      I agree that I hate the idea of a developer releasing an incomplete game and releasing the story piece by piece, and I WILL NOT buy such a game. I'm keeping my eye on Bioshock Infinite, and if it is anything like that or in any way heavily DLC based, I will skip it. I play games on my computer, and I'm not going to buy an incomplete game that also includes the risk of not being able to get the complete content. If a company does go the incomplete game, bit by bit route, then, assuming it does look like a really good game, I'll just wait for a GOTY edition that bundles all of the DLC and main game into one (and probably save a ton of money, too).

      So, I hear you about wanting a complete game. I agree that DLC *can* be a scam. However, in my experience, DLC has been a good thing, for the most part (or, at least not a hindrance, in the case of BS2). And my money will only go towards supporting games which, if they must have DLC, do DLC right.

      --
      "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
    3. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I pay for a game, it damn better be a COMPLETE game. But these days, they sell incomplete games now and the missing parts later. DLC is nothing but a scam.

      This, and yet not this.

      DLC is a pretty good indicator that the publisher/developer is trying to screw you on content, if it's available on launch and the game is sold at full price.

      There are however some developers that take a different approach where the original game is cheaper or free. Or where they release a small expansion several months later that has non-trivial content. However that's usually not the major publishers that do it but smaller studios. The majors are poisoning gamers' opinions on this matter.

      DLC - like reviews - are a neutral tool. It can be good (new ways to sell games, make smaller expansions viable). DLC can also be abused (removing content from a full price game, creating "collector's" versions that cost extra, use as DRM/used-sales-prevention).

      In the end it boils down to:
      Its evilness is determined by the people who use it. Don't be an idiot, inform yourself and don't let yourself be ripped off.

    4. Re:Fuck you, developers. by interactive_civilian · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you pretty much summed up my feelings better than my long-winded response below.

      Regarding "what is a 'complete' game?", though. I'd say, a game that at least has a full story arc. Incomplete and using DLC for money grubbing would be something like releasing the first game as, half the story, and then having to buy DLC to finish that story. i.e. it wouldn't be an extension of the game; it would be building to the completion of the game.

      Though not quite DLC, this is kind of how I look at Valve with the HL2 episodes. Episodic content is annoying like that when you have to wait so long to get to the next chapter. Even more so when you are really enjoying the story. (and I love the HL2 story)

      Like I said in my comment below, "Borderlands" *might* feel kind of like an incomplete game due to its weak story, BUT it's such a fun game that you do feel you got a complete game in the base game, and the DLC then extends and enhances, as DLC should.

      Also, like I said in the post below, I have never bought an "incomplete" game in the sense of this post, and I never intend to.

      --
      "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
    5. Re:Fuck you, developers. by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I was very disappointed that Minerva's Den DLC was not coming for PC... And, as for DLC done right, one only has to look at Valve and everything they've done for TF2, L4D, and L4D2. And, they release it for free!

      Don't feel so bad, the free DLC was only free on the PC.

    6. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Nursie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Beautiful Katamari

      It was a very short game, and the DLC was available from day1, completing the game. IIRC the original game was pretty low priced though, so instead of looking at it as being ripped off and getting nickel-and-dimes for the full game, you could say that they were offering a half-game for half price and you could buy the rest if you liked it.

      I'm not sure, this is a big grey area. When am I not getting a full game I've paid for? When am I genuinely paying for extra content? How long *should* a game be?

      Meh.

    7. Re:Fuck you, developers. by interactive_civilian · · Score: 1

      Don't feel so bad, the free DLC was only free on the PC.

      Heh... oops. Sorry, I forgot that. ^^;;

      However, isn't that more Microsoft's doing than Valve's doing? As I understand things now for the future, Valve would rather gamers not buy Portal 2 for Xbox if they want to get the best possible experience playing it, mainly because of Microsoft's limitations on DLC and patches and such. Valve could never do for TF2 on XBox what they've done for TF2 on PC, and the only reason for this is because Microsoft won't allow it.

      --
      "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
    8. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Squeeself · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I fully agree with you here. I don't buy DLC's except on the games that I enjoyed the most. In those cases, I want more, and the DLC provides. In other games I don't enjoy or play as much? Never bought a DLC. Just no interest. Been there, done that. DLC gives the gamer the choice of that extra content, and not, as you indicated, being a blocker in the production cycle.

    9. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Squapper · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a senior game developer, i can tell you that no game released nowadays is EVER complete. And trying to making a game complete is like trying to write all the digits of Pi. It cant be done, you just have to draw the line somewhere and say "this is good enough". We work until our employers pry our hands from the keyboards and force us work on a new project. Then we sneak back and work a little bit more on the old one either because we are ashamed of the quality or because we love the project. And we HAVE to move on to new projects, otherwise game development would not be economically feasible and there would be no AAA projects such as the ones mentioned in TFA.

      And the point of doing minor DLC is not to make money from it directly. The point is to give a promise to the consumers that there will be DLC shortly, and make them hold on to their copies instead of reselling them, which would bring zero money to the publisher. This is not some theory of my own, it is what our publishers tell us when they are ordering us to do minor DLC. Why they charge so much for stuff that would have done it's job perfectly when released for free is beyond my understanding though.
      It's funny that the example in TFA where the true strategy was most obvious, the DLC for Alan Wake, was where the author was most happy with the product...

    10. Re:Fuck you, developers. by FoboldFKY · · Score: 1

      Episodic content is annoying like that when you have to wait so long to get to the next chapter.

      Really, that's only a problem if the company making the episodes isn't very good at it. Valve may have popularised the idea, but to be honest, they suck balls at it. They realised the "smaller" and "cheaper" parts well enough, but made a complete pig's breakfast of the "more frequent" part. I just don't think Valve as a studio is capable of doing episodes properly.

      Rather, you should be looking at Telltale. Once they start a season, they release an episode once a month. I think they could improve by actually releasing on a predictable date as opposed to whenever so long as it's not next month yet.

      It's not a problem with episodic games, it's a problem with Valve (to say nothing of whoever it was that was doing SiN Episodes).

      --
      We're geeks... We're the sorcerers of the modern-day world. --
    11. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is "DLC available at the start" screams "incomplete game" or "no QA testing was done on the shipping version"

      Here's what's generally good:
      1. DLC that expands the game to bridge it to the next chapter. It may take 2 years for another game, but they can put out a DLC bridge every 2-4 months. Altogether the player should pay no less than they would for the full game (eg 59.99) If content is released this way, as an incomplete game, then the beginning of the game should be cheaper, (eg 19.99) and the next 4 parts at 9.99 to complete the game. When the game is finally complete, re-release the game as a full version at the 59.99 price and release the next game in the same time span as the bridge episodes came out. What is bad: locking out the endgame behind DLC.
      2. DLC is a solution to piracy problems. They can release the first "part" of the game for 19.99 or allow it to be pirated en-masse, but the DLC can only be downloaded and played by the original purchaser. Someone who borrows, rents or steals the game can still install it, but to play rest of the game it must be downloaded as DLC. When the game is no longer new, the complete game with all parts can be a digital-download-only purchase.
      3. DLC can patch over game balance issues with the release of new episodes.

      Where it's bad, evil:
      1. DLC only unlocks costumes, props or maps that are already in the game. This is a common tactic employed previously by Microsoft and other business applications where a serial number was needed to unlock a cheaper edition of software into the more expensive version, but the software is otherwise identical. This should never have been considered a good idea, and anyone game that does this (including MMORPG's) are just robbing the player. It's like buying a car, but you can only choose from the base factory radio model (eg AM radio), and in order to get the CD player, or XM radio, you must pay an additional 2000$ for them to pry off the piece of plastic covering the controls, because it was there all along.
      2. DLC is worthless content. Any part of the game that was optional, and remains optional after install. This is again, usually just costumes, weapons, and maps, but there is no bearing on the game for it's use (except maybe in a multiplayer environment.) In a single player game, these are insulting. Car analogy again, it's like buying stickers that you put on the windshield or bumper, but otherwise don't do anything to improve the car.
      3. DLC is subscription/renting the game. This is the end-game for DLC, when people will stop buying it. Instead of "owning" a game, it's "renting-licensed" like how the RIAA and MPAA push things, which means among other things, that few people will ever re-play a game, thus buying all other DLC a waste of money.

      Most of the people you will see whining about DLC are those who can't pirate the full game, or those that give away their accounts to their friends (to get around not being able to install on more than one account) and their friends screw them over by either deinstalling the game, or getting them banned.

    12. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I guess it comes down to the difference between DLC and expansion packs, that have been around forever. DLC gives me the feeling of being nickel and dimed, expansions doesn't. I might buy a some kind of "ultimate" edition when that hits the bargain bin though.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    13. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Xest · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But where do you draw the line? Borderlands released extra content as DLC- some of it was mostly based on existing art assets such as the arena based content, but other DLC had a lot of new content- the zombie island release.

      You could argue that both these should've been in the game at release, you could argue that the arena one should, or you can argue that both are worthwhile bits of additional content.

      The problem is that some people will claim it should all have been included in the game, but then as the game was full of content in the first place - more than a lot of games - then what incentive would there be for developers to create that content in the first place? They'd already made enough for a complete retail release.

      Assassins Creed 2 had DLC which covered a "missing strand" of the storyline, but the missing strand didn't effect the retail storyline- some would argue this is part the game so should be free, but again, AC2 was a far longer, far more detailed game than the vast majority of other games out there- should it really have been free?

      A lot of calls for DLC to be part of the game seem to simply be people just wanting more free shit, a sense of entitlement to something despite much resources having to be invested in that content.

      This isn't to say some DLC is completely unfair, but it's hard to filter out complaints that are valid from those that aren't, and with the line blurred and largely subjective as to what is acceptable as DLC and what isn't then it's not likely to get resolved any time soon. Worse, some of the most succesful DLC in history is MW2's map packs, yet 2 out of 4 maps or whatever are just maps from existing CoD games re-released, despite this it's succesful because people pay for it- if millions of people are buying that crap then what are we to expect? The article complains about just this sort of thing but it's not like content descriptions aren't accurate- it was stated from the outset what is included in DLC content packs like this yet still people pay for it.

      I'd say DLC is often far from a scam, some DLC I've paid for has been well worth it, some of it not so. I think it's perfectly valid- The Orange Box on the 360 had HL2, Episode 1, Episode 2, TF2, and Portal - it would make sense that Episode 3 (if Valve ever release it) is DLC rather than a new release, I certainly don't need a new disc for it. I'd never have expected more from AC2 - I think I certainly got my money's worth from that game, so releasing the extra content as DLC was fine for me.

      The real question has to be when you buy a game, "Does this game have enough content to justify purchase?", if yes, and DLC later comes out, you have to ask the same about the DLC. If it's no to either question yet you buy it anyway, you don't really have much of a leg to stand on to complain- it's your own fault, it's not like there isn't a ton of information out there about how much content each game or DLC pack actually has.

    14. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd rather play a good short game than a tedious long one.

      Would you really pay 60 for Portal?

      I'd rather pay for a good long game than a good short one.

    15. Re:Fuck you, developers. by somersault · · Score: 1

      I thought it was Prince of Persia that popularised the idea. It's the first game I remember being released in episodes anyway. I've still not played any of them beyond the original, as I didn't like the idea of paying two times the cost of a normal full game to get all the parts, not to mention having to wait weeks/months in between each portion of the game.

      Having said that I did buy the HD remake of the original, which definitely is a cash in of course..

      --
      which is totally what she said
    16. Re:Fuck you, developers. by njen · · Score: 1

      Episodic content is annoying like that when you have to wait so long to get to the next chapter.

      I take it you don't read multi part novels then?

    17. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Rogerborg · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As an ex senior game developer, you and I know very well that the problem is that we write two (or three or four) games for every one that's published. And we do this because most of the industry is institutionally incompetent.

      Writers who can't make themselves understood; designers who say "give me an engine then I'll tell you what I really needed it to do"; engine devs who think they're writing the game; game devs who think they're writing the engine; artists who view resource limits as only applying to lesser talents; testers who are just frustrated designers; project managers who want to be producers; producers who want to be distributors; distributors who want to be writers, it's a massive dysfunctional clusterfuck from beginning to end. What amazes me is that anything actually gets released.

      If we had the discipline (as an industry) to write just one game for every game released, they'd all be AAA, and turn at healthy profit at $30 retail.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    18. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      Why they charge so much for stuff that would have done it's job perfectly when released for free is beyond my understanding though.

      to earn money? They probably figure charging a few bucks isnt going to keep lots of people from getting it, and perhaps even that a non-free price adds an air of legitimacy and value to it. Also, gamers might be more inclined to try and actually enjoy the DLC when they spent money on it. If i download a level for game XYZ for free, and i hate the first five minutes, i will discard it. If i paid 5 bucks for it, i will give it about an hour to win me over before i toss it aside.

      Mostly though, i think money is the reason, if they release loads of trinkets (free cars/guns/tracks/levels/team-jerseys), at some point the share holders will start asking questions, and when their money is involved, they can be a bitch to convince.

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    19. Re:Fuck you, developers. by flowwolf · · Score: 1
    20. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call bullshit on this:

      "game development would not be economically feasible"

      Games ship now without media, have pre-release/ pre-order sales, DLC, movie and comic tie ins, merchandising etc... and the AAA games initial sales now generate more profit than AAA movies do, at less cost.

      Someone is taking more than their fair share of the pie.

    21. Re:Fuck you, developers. by kenshin33 · · Score: 1
      You had a very good post there except for this:

      DLC is a solution to piracy problems. They can release the first "part" of the game for 19.99 or allow it to be pirated en-masse, but the DLC can only be downloaded and played by the original purchaser. Someone who borrows, rents or steals the game can still install it, but to play rest of the game it must be downloaded as DLC. When the game is no longer new, the complete game with all parts can be a digital-download-only purchase.

      you equate piracy with the mere fact of lending, leasing or reselling. These are undeniable rights given by the first sale doctrine if you agree with ht fact that when you pay for a game you're buying it (be it digitally of a physical copy), thus your property, and I think you do agree :

      3. DLC is subscription/renting the game. This is the end-game for DLC, when people will stop buying it. Instead of "owning" a game, it's "renting-licensed" like how the RIAA and MPAA push things, which means among other things, that few people will ever re-play a game, thus buying all other DLC a waste of money.

    22. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's DLC for that abomination?

    23. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Episodic content is annoying like that when you have to wait so long to get to the next chapter.

      I take it you don't read multi part novels then?

      I know I don't. For example: I love reading Tracy Hickman novels, but "dragonsbard Eventide" is an annoying distribution model. Give me the whole book and I'll give you my money. Oh sure, that's the way books used to be done back in the day when serials ruled the roost, but that's not what today's readers want. We want fast resolution of plot; a continual cliffhanger sucks big ones.

    24. Re:Fuck you, developers. by spammeister · · Score: 1

      The point is to give a promise to the consumers that there will be DLC shortly, and make them hold on to their copies instead of reselling them, which would bring zero money to the publisher.

      Yeah, tell that to activison and EA who require people to pay to access online resources if they buy a game 2nd hand. Oh I'm sure you're not part of the evil corporate machine, but unless you claim you don't support THAT kind of business model, we can assume whatever the hell we want.

      --
      I tried to think of a good sig, and this wasn't it.
    25. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Yeah! That's where half the game is!

    26. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read multi part novels. Only when I have all the books available to read.

      They want to split it up, cause they get to increase their revenues. Collectors Editions, GoTY editions, or even you sending money every few months for another 2 hour long mission. They give you the same thing you paid for and an extra hour or two mission. You give them ten dollars, and then you spend the next few months wanting another two hour mission. They have you fucking trained.

    27. Re:Fuck you, developers. by iainl · · Score: 1

      That all rather depends on how much of a game you're writing before scrapping it though, surely? The suggestion that Hollywood should save money by not writing scripts that don't get greenlit would be obviously ludicrous, so I suppose the issue is how far into development a game needs to go before you realise it's not going to work.

      If you write just one game for every game released, in reality I suspect you're releasing all the junk that would get rightly canned under the present system, and that's not going to improve anyone's profit margins.

      --
      "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
    28. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Pojut · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. The idea of being able to add content to a game after its release is AWESOME, provided it meets a few criteria:

      * DON'T release pay-for DLC the same day (or shortly after) a game is released at retail. That pisses people off.
      * DO try to offer free DLC at launch if it covers content you didn't have time to properly polish prior to the game going gold.
      * DON'T offer pay-for DLC that includes content or options that should have been included when the game was released (I'm looking at you, Dead Space Weapon/Skins/Costume packs and having to buy DLC stages to get certain achievements for Beautiful Katamri.)
      * DO make DLC actually worth buying. Most of the packs released for Fallout 3 are an excellent example of how DLC should be utilized to increase income for publishers/developers while simultaneously increasing enjoyment and game length for players. Borderlands is another example of (mostly) well-done DLC.
      * DON'T charge exhorbitant amounts of money for your DLC. Horse Armor shouldn't cost 200 MS points while The Zombie Island of Dr. Ned costs 800 MS points (in Bethesda's defense, Oblivion came out fairly early in the mainstream DLC game.)

    29. Re:Fuck you, developers. by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've never been a senior game developer, but it looks to me like the real problem is that the industry has decided that time-to-market trumps any and all other concerns. They'd much rather have a bad game in 4 months than a really good game in 12 months.

      The only thing I can figure is that 3 bad games get more revenue than 1 good game, which doesn't make any sense. A bad game picks up a bunch of early adopters who were suckered in by the hype, but within 2 months there's no market for it. A good game can produce good revenue for years - Starcraft sold for years after it was released. So why make bad games instead of good games?

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    30. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'll clarify my point: each AAA game that gets released tends to have been (re)written at least twice. There's no need for that to happen, other than poor management of the process. Egos run rampant, mavericks are brought in and allowed to throw away man-years of work because they think they can re-write it all in less time than it takes to fix it, code is written before requirements, requirements are delayed until code is available, content is produced before it's clear whether it's needed, or suitable, and all the while layers of writers, managers and producers fight turf wars over what game they're actually trying to create.

      Games are expensive because the process of developing them is horrendously wasteful. Take a look at the credits on any AAA title and ask yourself how many of the people there actually contributed to the game that's on your screen - the version that actually got released, rather than all the abandoned attempts. It's surprisingly few.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    31. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe just wait until the release the inevitable pack edition with all DLC included? I got my Borderlands GOTY with all 4 DLCs for less than what the base game was retailing for AT THE SAME TIME

    32. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Games are expensive because the process of developing them is horrendously wasteful.

      All the stuff you describe applies to software development in general, or pretty much any organization of people working on a project.

    33. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree with that broad statement. If I'm interested in the DLC, I probably felt like the game itself had good value. If I didn't thoroughly enjoy a game, I'm not going to be paying them any more money. What's a "complete" game anyway? I'd rather play a good short game than a tedious long one.

      When you buy a chess sim, and the rooks are missing, knights inexplicably capture like pawns 1/2 the time, and white's queen bishop pawn is MIA, you have the right to remain insulted by the patch being a DLC exclusive.

      Bethesda / Obsidian are NOTORIOUS for this. There are several unpatched gamebreakers in FO3 and the answer is to either toss your save (and lose hours of time), or if you're on PC, use console/cheat codes to get around it. But they're patched if you buy Broken Steel, of course.

    34. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      What's a "complete" game anyway?

      A complete game is one that contains all the characters, items, quests, missions, levels, or whatever else necessary to provide a solid gaming experience.

      Depending on the title, that'll vary. Obviously you don't see a whole ton of different maps in a Madden game, but you'd probably be pretty upset if your new Modern Warfare set every single mission in the same few hundred yards of geography.

      Obviously there's always room for expansion and sequels and whatnot... But if some piece of DLC is generally considered essential to the enjoyment of the game, that's a good indication that it should've been included in the retail release.

      And I can understand being in a situation like "We have this interesting side story to develop, but that would push back the release date a few months." I'd rather have that option to extend the game if I'm enjoying it.

      Again, it'll depend on the game and execution and whatnot... If you've got some kind of sandbox-style freeplay after the game is finished, and you add on some more quests to do with DLC, that's fine.

      If the game is basically done when you finish it, and you have to start over from scratch, and then you release some more quests that could only be completed during a new run through the game, that's not so fine. That means those quests should have been completed during the original story arc, and I missed out on them because I didn't have the DLC when I completed that arc.

      Worse is if there's some fairly obvious room to expand on something. Like a character just begging for a side story to develop. And you play through the whole game just waiting for that story to develop. And then you have to buy some DLC to explore that very obvious side story.

      And what I really, really hate is when they've got DLC right there on the disc. Some NPC with a quest icon that sends you to a DLC store on launch day. Or actual content there on the disc that can only be unlocked by spending more money. That's bullshit.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    35. Re:Fuck you, developers. by delinear · · Score: 1

      It's probably more that, once the game has taken shape enough for you to realise it's bad, do you just ship it as soon as possible, cut your losses and hope the next one is a AAA title, or do you pour more time and money into something that's so far proved a failure, hoping to one day make it come good? It seems like, if you could get away with doing the first approach two or three times before you nail the awesome title without leaving your reputation in tatters, it might make more sense financially. The key thing is, nobody ever sets out to make a bad game, so if the product you've got on your hands is bad and you have what you think is a winning idea on the drawing board, the temptation is going to be to move on as quickly as you can, before you sap all the money and motivation from the company.

    36. Re:Fuck you, developers. by pla · · Score: 1

      I disagree with that broad statement.

      I don't think you do, really. Perhaps the last clause, but essentially, you've repeated what the author said - You don't screw with DLC unless the standalone (presumably on-disc) game itself has sufficient merit.

      I don't think any of us have a problem with truly optional content - Either extra maps/levels (and I mean really extra, not 90% of the expected game world even though you can technically "finish" the game with what shipped), or various cosmetic add-ons that have no impact whatsoever on actual game-play. But when you play to the 6th zone and just as you cross the end-of-zone bridge expecting either a boss fight or the next zone, you just get a bland "congrats, you win" screen... Houston, we have a really frickin' big problem.

    37. Re:Fuck you, developers. by slyrat · · Score: 1

      If we had the discipline (as an industry) to write just one game for every game released, they'd all be AAA, and turn at healthy profit at $30 retail.

      This right here is why I like indie games SO much. They don't do much, but they do what they do VERY well. I wish more games were built like indie games.

    38. Re:Fuck you, developers. by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      I'll have to disagree on your side story comment. Sorry but a side story does not have to be developed for a game to be complete as a Side-Story is just that. A side story. It is pertinent only as it directly impacts the story arc.

      Most side stories don't gather enough interest to be worth expanding or the devs have a plot in mind where a side story may be planned as either an expansion or related game.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    39. Re:Fuck you, developers. by delinear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While it's not something you can set hard and fast rules about, it's usually pretty clear if the DLC is reasonable or not. If you can enjoy the entire game experience without the DLC and are not left feeling like there were big gaps or that you are in some way disadvantaged by not having a DLC map or peiece of equipment, then that's fine. The DLC in that case will live or die on how useful/good it is. Selling half a game with the conclusion as DLC should never be allowed. Similarly putting nag characters directly in the original game who are there to try and pimp DLC should definitely not be allowed, not without the ability to disable that part of their character.

      On this last point, I thought Dragon Age was bad enough, placing a character in my camp who, when spoken to, would encourage me to buy a certain DLC mission. That position has now been usurped by Fable 3, where there's a character in my sanctuary who tries to sell me DLC from the in game shop almost every time I visit the sanctuary. For those who haven't played the game, the sanctuary is effectively your options menu, map and inventory combined - yes that's right, they nag me to buy content EVERY TIME I USE MY INVENTORY. I could even live with this horrific abuse if they just told me about each new item once and then left it at that, but so far there's only one item of DLC (a suit so you can dress up as a dog, I kid you not) and yet Jasper feels this is worthy of mentioning constantly. I should have known better than to expect anything different from Lionhead, of course - these are the same people who, in Fable 2, took key items required to obtain all the achievements for the main game and made them only available through DLC purchases (in contravention of MS's policy that all achievements in a release game must be obtainable without the need to buy DLC - they claimed that it wasn't in breach of the rules because a friend could gift you the items you needed, but of course that friend needed to get them from somewhere and ultimately someone would have to buy them).

    40. Re:Fuck you, developers. by slyrat · · Score: 1

      But where do you draw the line? Borderlands released extra content as DLC- some of it was mostly based on existing art assets such as the arena based content, but other DLC had a lot of new content- the zombie island release.

      You could argue that both these should've been in the game at release, you could argue that the arena one should, or you can argue that both are worthwhile bits of additional content.

      You know, what I wanted from the DLC was both non-drm and actual back story to the main characters in the game. Before the game came out they mentioned some crazy back story stuff for the 4 characters then nothing came about for it. That was mainly why I didn't get much of this game's dlc. At least they fixed the DRM by the 3rd DLC.

    41. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Slashdotters who write "I call bullshit," "citation needs," "fixed this for you," or the idiotic "this," should all be shot.

    42. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Ephemeriis · · Score: 1

      Most side stories don't gather enough interest to be worth expanding

      In which case it isn't the kind of side story that's just begging to be developed, where you play through the whole game just waiting for that story to develop.

      or the devs have a plot in mind where a side story may be planned as either an expansion or related game.

      In which case it isn't a side story. It is a hook. And it is fully developed into an entirely separate product.

      Sorry but a side story does not have to be developed for a game to be complete as a Side-Story is just that. A side story. It is pertinent only as it directly impacts the story arc.

      Emphasis added - this is exactly what I'm talking about.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    43. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Artifex33 · · Score: 1
      Sounds like software development is the same all over. Usually, it starts with bad requirements from people who don't understand (or have an inkling of) what they want, so they produce something nebulous that they send to development to get them started on *something*, while the requirements department figures out as they go.

      That's why people with decisive creative drive are so important, regardless of the type of software project you're working on.

    44. Re:Fuck you, developers. by skorch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As a current game developer, while I can sympathize with a lot of your points on a general level, it sounds to me like you worked at some particularly shitty companies if all of those things were perpetually true at once.

      Not saying that none of them happen anywhere, but they certainly don't all happen everywhere. And after that, change the details and the job titles in your description and you could be complaining about just about any industry in existence today.

    45. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AC Likes this.

    46. Re:Fuck you, developers. by dropzonetoe · · Score: 1

      Taking a different hobby of mine - miniature wargaming as example. There are a lot of commercial products out there, and a lot of homemade free systems. But once a person develops a set of rules and tries to give it away for free no one wants to try it... they move to making people spend a couple bucks for it and all the sudden there is interest in it. Even at a $1 it is worth more to than free to the people getting it. I don't know if that price makes people feel they are getting a "real" product or what. But most of the people who go on to make smaller rule sets all say that until they start charging for it no one want it.

      --
      Look out, you'll shoot Dorkus.
    47. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 1

      Eh. To some degree, yes, but the game industry is typically a step above (or below, depending on your point of view.)

    48. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Xest · · Score: 1

      "While it's not something you can set hard and fast rules about, it's usually pretty clear if the DLC is reasonable or not. If you can enjoy the entire game experience without the DLC and are not left feeling like there were big gaps or that you are in some way disadvantaged by not having a DLC map or peiece of equipment, then that's fine. The DLC in that case will live or die on how useful/good it is."

      I don't know that it is, this is the point. To me the MW2 DLC was completely unreasonable, 800 or 1200 Microsoft points or whatever for 4 maps, 2 of which were already release in the old MW? That seems grossly unreasonable, yet apparently millions disagree- this is the point, people's viewpoints on whether DLC is worthwhile or not cover such a vast spectrum it seems hard to really have any guage of what is and isn't acceptable. I'd like to say the more developers take the piss the less popular DLC will be and you could use that as a guage, but again, apparently not - the MW2 DLC is the most prominent example.

      "For those who haven't played the game, the sanctuary is effectively your options menu, map and inventory combined - yes that's right, they nag me to buy content EVERY TIME I USE MY INVENTORY"

      I honestly never realised this was what he was on about, I thought he was on about some in sanctuary shop you could buy items for your character using game money, I just played through the game and never paid attention to this feature.

      "these are the same people who, in Fable 2, took key items required to obtain all the achievements for the main game and made them only available through DLC purchases (in contravention of MS's policy that all achievements in a release game must be obtainable without the need to buy DLC - they claimed that it wasn't in breach of the rules because a friend could gift you the items you needed"

      Can you remind me what this was? I got 1000/1000 Gamerscore on Fable II and don't recall paying for any DLC, there was an annoying achievement about trading some dolls or something odd but I don't recall that being related to DLC either? I thought it was random as to who got what or something.

    49. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Maybe. We can only judge on our own experiences, and what we hear from others. I guess the EA Spouses of the world tend to shout louder than the contented people.

      I won't ask who you work for, but I'd be very interested to hear who your publisher is. I believe that a lot of the problems seem to start there, when (publisher side) producers try to micromanage the creative process.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    50. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Whether the main Borderlands plot was good or not, playing it was excellent fun and gave me many many hours entertainment.

      The DLC may or may not be good, but until I can pick up all four DLCs for a tenner I wont find out. I'm happy to pay for a substantial expansion, I'll buy a sequel, but I refuse to effectively pay a subscription for a single-player game.

      These days I'm just waiting for the GOTY or 'Gold' or 'Steam Bundle' versions. More game for less money.

    51. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I wish I'd waited on Borderlands. The irony is that I can't get the DLC for much cheaper than you bought the whole bundle, even though I (happily) paid full price for the game.

      I've mostly given up buying games on release.

    52. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Beardydog · · Score: 1

      This is how I felt throughout Fable 3. The game is shockingly short, the bulk of the side-quests are... bulk side quests ( A ruffian named needs capturing. There's a reward in it for you! ) The King portion, which should be half of the game, takes an hour, and I've yet to see a noticeable change ( apart from the interiors of two buildings ) in the environment. The main bad guys don't even show up until you've only got an hour or two left to play, and are defeated suddenly, with no sense of accomplishment. And throughout, you come across gaping holes in the story that are clearly hangers for DLC. It's painful, and makes the rest of it seem all the cheaper. The whole thing feels like a shoddy framework built for the sole purpose of selling premium content.

      Really. It's shocking how much better Fable 2 is than Fable 3, in absolutely every way. I pine for menus.

    53. Re:Fuck you, developers. by tepples · · Score: 1

      How long *should* a game be?

      Each Animal Crossing game takes a year to see the whole thing. And it trickles that game out daily based on the RTC, so if you miss Easte^W Bunny Day, you have to catch it next year.

    54. Re:Fuck you, developers. by cowscows · · Score: 1

      If you can solve this problem for the gaming industry, make sure you write a book about it and hopefully the rest of the world can learn from it, because these basic problems are pervasive in just about every human endeavor ever.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    55. Re:Fuck you, developers. by interactive_civilian · · Score: 1

      Pay attention to the Steam Sales. During the "Perils of Summer Sale", they had all 3 DLCs (at that time) for $9.99. I was stupid and didn't get them then when I bought the base game, because I didn't realize how much I'd end up liking the game.

      I've actually bought each of the Borderlands DLCs at full price ($9.99 each), and for me they were worth the investment. Since I also got the base game for $9.99 during the sale, in all I haven't paid more than the GOTY edition.

      The Borderlands DLCs are really good fun. I highly recommend getting them the next time they go on sale. I don't know if Gearbox will be willing to make all 4 available together for $9.99, but seriously, if you can get them all for $20 or less, it's a steal.

      --
      "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
    56. Re:Fuck you, developers. by BlackBloq · · Score: 1

      Umm you didn't play games where 5 minutes after you buy it , some place on the map is visible yet you can't travel there. As it turns out, you must talk to Fred in camp... Fred says ... ahem" buy the Tales of the wizard tower now only 800 Microsoft points!" or whatever it was (Dragon Age). Game pissed me off so much I just dumped it. I play games to escape ads! The last thing I want is a game character or NPC pitching me DLC! That's bloody classless! I fart in their general direction!

    57. Re:Fuck you, developers. by Cabriel · · Score: 1

      Let me fix that for you.

      If I pay for a car, it damn better be a COMPLETE car. But these days, they sell incomplete cars now and the after-market mods later. After-market mods are nothing but a scam.

    58. Re:Fuck you, developers. by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      THIS.

      I refuse to purchase any more EA games when I found out that my copy of a game was crippled intentionally.

      It's this shaving of the edges bullshit by trying to factor in a decrease in users not due to someone simply shelving their game, but intentionally making it difficult or impossible to give your product to someone else.

      It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't start COMBINING different games under one account so that if you want to transfer one game, all become useless.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    59. Re:Fuck you, developers. by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Let me fix that for you.

      Then, after you sell your car with the after-market mods, Ford/GM/Honda/Toyota, hits a button that fires explosive bolts and blows the aftermarket mods off your vehicle and destroys them.

      Or they hit a button and declare that you are not allowed to sell your car to your neighbor. They say that your neighbor must buy a new car, AND all of the aftermarket parts over again.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
  3. Change your attitude first by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Where a publisher stands to make some money, gamers get screwed.

    Is there a chance to fix this system?

    As long as you approach the world with the attitude that it owes you something, there is no chance to fix the system. You will always be disappointed and feel "screwed".

    1. Re:Change your attitude first by SheeEttin · · Score: 1

      If I paid $50 for a(n allegedly) professionally-produced game, they sure as hell DO owe me something.

    2. Re:Change your attitude first by lostmongoose · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You chose to give them your money. They *owe you nothing* other than what you could access out of the box. Unless you're paying a monthly fee, you have no entitlement to anything beyond that. If you are paying a monthly fee and the devs aren't performing as you think they should *stop paying them*.

    3. Re:Change your attitude first by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Think of it as $25 worth of game, and $25 worth of valuable life lessons. You might as well say "I pay for the food and the roof over her head, why isn't the frigid bitch putting out more?" Life is a series of lessons in why you should never pay up front in anticipation of rewards later.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    4. Re:Change your attitude first by icebraining · · Score: 1

      They implicitly promised a full game for that money, and failed to deliver.

      If you buy a house and then you find out it has no floor, haven't the sellers screw you? Is it not fraud? Why then can game publishers sell you an incomplete game and it's OK?

      Of course, houses are different because you can actually see it all before buying, but with games you can't because "piracy" is illegal and immoral and God kills a kitten for every copied byte.

    5. Re:Change your attitude first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, so if I tell you that I'm selling a nice car, and you buy only to realize it's full of holes in the roof, you don't feel that I owe you anything? Maybe I painted over the holes so you couldn't see them.

    6. Re:Change your attitude first by jargon82 · · Score: 1

      Have you bought a house? Every house has it's quirks. Most of these are discovered after at least a few weeks of "use." Often, you can pay a little extra to fix or improve the quirks, or you can just live with them. I'd say the initial walkthroughs, the home inspections, etc, are not too far removed from reviews of games.

      If the reviews all say it's terrible, it's crap, it's incomplete, you don't buy it. Just like the the home inspector tells you the furnace is likely to explode in a month or two, you don't buy the house.

      On the other hand, the lack of being able to resell games, etc, does annoy the heck out of me. No, I wouldn't download a house, but I sure as heck want to be able to sell the one I bought when I'm done with it. And the garage should still come with it, even if I added it later :)

    7. Re:Change your attitude first by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Well the other option and it seems to be a growing one is that, if a developer is screwing you over. Just pirate the piss out of their product until it's done then buy it when it's on sale.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    8. Re:Change your attitude first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you bought a house? Every house has it's [sic] quirks. Most of these are discovered after at least a few weeks of "use." Often, you can pay a little extra to fix or improve the quirks, or you can just live with them. I'd say the initial walkthroughs, the home inspections, etc, are not too far removed from reviews of games

      So, with a house, you can fix the issues yourself (or pay someone to do it), and subsequently increase its value.

      How does that have any relation to games? Can you fix the game yourself? Can you pay someone to fix the game for you? When you do get the game fixed, does that increase its value, justifying your investment?

    9. Re:Change your attitude first by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I forget I'm in a website located in a place where if you buy something and it's broken, you're basically fucked.

      Here in the EU any house sold has a 5 year warranty, minimum, and the seller better write any "quirks" the house might have in the contract if he doesn't want to be forced to fix them later.
      Any other product except "perishables" has a 2 year minimum, except for used stuff where it has only 1 year.

      It's just anti-fraud common sense, imho.

      But regardless of that, I don't know of any house that comes with anti-repair protections (DRM).

    10. Re:Change your attitude first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. I believe I am entitled to patches for any and all broken functionality.
      If i buy a physical item that has a "bug", I expect the manufacturer to replace it with a fully working product. See: product recalls.

    11. Re:Change your attitude first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >have no entitlement to anything beyond that.

      beyond what is in the box?

      So the promise of what the game is or the reviews that lead me to buy the game set no standard to what I get?

      Reading the post at face value reads to me like you are ment to be happy that your game is interchangeable with anaimal droppings.

      Paid for DLC that "fixes" a game is not something that should be paid for. It is called a patch, Not a "expantion".

    12. Re:Change your attitude first by morari · · Score: 1

      No, I wouldn't download a house, but I sure as heck want to be able to sell the one I bought when I'm done with it.

      I'd download a new house in a heartbeat!

      --
      "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
  4. There Is a Chance by umbrellasd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't pay for the shit DLC, and Supply and Demand economics will take care of the problem.

    1. Re:There Is a Chance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately most of the customers are idiots and will buy everything.

    2. Re:There Is a Chance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't pay for the shit DLC, and Supply and Demand economics will take care of the problem.

      It costs basically nothing to offer DLC, and there's always going to be people buying (particularly kids).
      So if 50% of people buy the DLC it's an awesome deal for the companies making it.
      If only 5% of people buy the DLC then it's just a good deal for the companies making it.

      To have any effect, you'd have to convince a large portion of the gaming community to boycott the core games that DLC is attached to.

    3. Re:There Is a Chance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except that quite a lot of DLC has gamerscore attached to it, and plenty of people have shown they will purchase totally shit games just for the easy GS...

    4. Re:There Is a Chance by stms · · Score: 1

      There's still sort of a problem with that. In games like MW2 if you don't buy the DLC you get kicked from half the matchmaking games which is annoying.

    5. Re:There Is a Chance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But how would you know what is and isn't bad until you try it?

    6. Re:There Is a Chance by purpledinoz · · Score: 1

      These so called morons are also selfish, and will eventually look for better value from their limited amount money.

    7. Re:There Is a Chance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People still play MW2?

    8. Re:There Is a Chance by TheRealGrogan · · Score: 1

      Speaking of which, I absolutely refuse to buy COD multiplayer maps as "DLC" on principle.

      This was something the community used to create, with the tools provided with the games. Some of the best COD/COD2/COD4/CodWaW maps were made by enthusiasts. Since they took that all away in the name of greed, I'm certainly not going to reward them for it.

      I do buy DLC for my games, but only if it's worthwhile. Extra missions, more game play... not just bling like costumes, vehicles or different guns that aren't even that advantageous.

    9. Re:There Is a Chance by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      not when you stamp the box with "halo", then even the small remainder of reason and value-awareness goes out the door.

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    10. Re:There Is a Chance by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Which doesn't work because they're also ignorant and hence unable to correctly assess the offer that will bring the best value for their money.

    11. Re:There Is a Chance by kenshin33 · · Score: 1

      how do you know that it is a shitty DLC? it not like your in the town market and you have the opportunity to see and some times sample the merchandise. You can't just say after 5 minutes of playing hey don't like the product, I want a refund. Usually there are reviews but sometimes what the reviews say and what you actually see are totally different things.

    12. Re:There Is a Chance by kenshin33 · · Score: 1

      sorry, but an other thing to add.
      sometimes you don;t get a choice ... if you want to continue playing the game(a very good game you invested a lot of time and efforts in) with your friends you have to buy the DLC.

    13. Re:There Is a Chance by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      People still play MW2?

      According to http://store.steampowered.com/stats/ it's in the 14th place today, so yes.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    14. Re:There Is a Chance by Tridus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or they could not buy the DLC?

      These map packs work on peer pressure. Someone buys it, and pressures their friends to buy it too in order to keep playing. But that also works in reverse. If people start telling their friends "that's a waste of money and I won't buy it", they now have pressure to not use it in order to play with you.

      It's kind of sad how many customers think they're powerless. We're the ones with the money. We have ALL the power in this equation. If we used it intelligently instead of like a bunch of crack addicited morons, the publishers would be begging for mercy.

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    15. Re:There Is a Chance by kenshin33 · · Score: 1

      indeed it is sad. Rarely you'll find some one that stands back on principle. the usual rationalization is: even if I don't buy it others will and it wont change a thing, so screw it I'm buying. A lot of people think this way.
      I wonder what this syndrome is called

    16. Re:There Is a Chance by dbet · · Score: 1

      DLC doesn't (often) have a trial where you can see if it's shit or not, so you buy DLC based on the original game, and if it sucks too bad everyone already bought it.

    17. Re:There Is a Chance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wont, because it costs little to nothing to create a shitty dlc hat/costume/whatever and put it up for sale for 2 dollars.

    18. Re:There Is a Chance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or they blame it on piracy!

  5. I do not see the difference ... by Kosi · · Score: 1

    ... to poorly done content bought on some kind of media. It's always wise to give something a look before buying it, regardless of it being virtual or "real" goods. Unfinished or badly done software has been sold since software is being sold. The only chance to fix this, is that people stop buying such shit.

    1. Re:I do not see the difference ... by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Yes, the way to stop bad DLC is the same way to stop bad regular games: read a damn review before you decide to buy.

    2. Re:I do not see the difference ... by Kosi · · Score: 1

      Taking into account all those faked and/or incompetent reviews: you'd better read more than one. Or get first hand information from a source that you know you can trust.

    3. Re:I do not see the difference ... by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      True, but any review is better than none. Metacritic is probably okay.

    4. Re:I do not see the difference ... by mcvos · · Score: 1

      I rarely trust commercial reviews. I do trust user reviews, but then too I want to read more than one. A single review doesn't mean much.

    5. Re:I do not see the difference ... by kenshin33 · · Score: 1

      As I said in a previous post how do you know that before buying it. And software is not refundable in my experience. so you buy you don't like you're screwed.

    6. Re:I do not see the difference ... by Tridus · · Score: 1

      Wait for a demo. Wait for 2 weeks and see how many forums light up with suckers who bought on day 1 complaining about how broken it is.

      There's no reason why you have to buy the game on day 1. It'll still be on the shelf in two weeks.

      "Not refundable" is a great reason to exercise some bloody self-restraint.

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    7. Re:I do not see the difference ... by Sovetskysoyuz · · Score: 1

      My solution is to read the negative reviews and see whether the flaws that they point out sound like they'd bother me.

    8. Re:I do not see the difference ... by kenshin33 · · Score: 1

      I did, I used to buy the games second hand (yeah cheap bastard I know :D). and I don't bother with DLCs -except if I reaaaaaly liked the games- but I don't anymore PS3 is there as DVD/Blueray/DVIX player ...

  6. Let's Be Honest by Cylix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I get the feeling someone is on the war path with video games lately. At least regarding the story trend and I'm not saying I disagree... just saying.

    In any event, the issue isn't even as specific as DLC. Sure, there are plenty of awful examples and I would very much like to point the finger at Halo. Whole sections of multi-player simply disappear if you do not purchase the down-loadable map packs. This isn't even close to misrepresentation, but more like bandits along the highway. At some point, someone thought it would be a really good idea to cripple your current style of play unless you pay a few dollars. I believe someone's soul is headed toward damnation for that one.

    Ignoring fire and brimstone, let's get back to the broader and real issue at hand. Bad game or bad content for purchase are not really the issues either. The fact is if we had more honest reviews floating around this would be a no brainer. The truth is we as gamers have been sold out countless times by these fan fiction writers who like to pretend they are writing a game review. In my personal experience, Red Dead Redemption was pretty much the worst multiplayer experience I have had in a while. It however managed to have a lot of good reviews. A more recent example of abuse of a good name is COD Black Ops. This is a good example of how to take something that wasn't terribly and just twist it into a hellish house of mirrors reflecting on a shadow of it's former self.

    Having been in the broadcast world for a good while in the past there are important lessons I did learn there. What I happen to like or dislike may not necessarily be in tune with the populace at large. However, I would like to point out that the current early trend with user reviews seem to favor my opinion http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/call-of-duty-black-ops?rating_login=1.

    I believe what has happened with both retail games and addon pay content is something very simple. It appears to be much easier to simply spend oodles on marketing and advertising rather then produce something original. (Well, original is probably a bad term... how about enjoyable). It cannot be argued these triple a titles have a fairly large budget, but in my horrid and unimportant opinion is that publishers have gone the McDonalds route. Seriously, how else would you sale poison the the people of our great nation.

    --
    "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    1. Re:Let's Be Honest by Squapper · · Score: 1

      It appears to be much easier to simply spend oodles on marketing and advertising rather then produce something original.

      Blame it on the market, history tells us that good games and games that get good reviews does not necessarily sell. Well advertised and hyped games, however, DO sell.

    2. Re:Let's Be Honest by brunes69 · · Score: 1

      Red Dead is not about multiplayer. It is a single player game with multiplayer tacked on due to the fact that you can't sell a single player game in today's market for ridiculous reasons. Red Dead got amazing reviews because it is an amazing single player game and I never even once saw a review that commented on the multiplayer at all.

    3. Re:Let's Be Honest by Gaygirlie · · Score: 1

      The truth is we as gamers have been sold out countless times by these fan fiction writers who like to pretend they are writing a game review. In my personal experience, Red Dead Redemption was pretty much the worst multiplayer experience I have had in a while. It however managed to have a lot of good reviews. A more recent example of abuse of a good name is COD Black Ops. This is a good example of how to take something that wasn't terribly and just twist it into a hellish house of mirrors reflecting on a shadow of it's former self.

      I have found one site which I personally trust these days. Gamespot offers quite comprehensive reviews, atleast 2 pages long, and the reviews tell enough about the game, its quirks and the gameplay for me to produce some kind of an image of how the game really is. And the scores they give games have so far matched my own feelings and tastes. So, that's where I usually head out to study whether or not I should buy a game and so far I have been more than satisfied.

      I am not 100% certain, but I think I read once a blog post or something from a Gamespot reviewer where he was talking about his experiences, and how when he clearly said he doesn't "sell" reviews he'd just receive gift boxes and stuff in the mail from the publishers with notes like "for your birthday" or "a sign of good will.." Apparently he kept the gifts but refused to let them alter his reviews. What's disturbing about this is how the publishers try to grease reviewers up even when they clearly say they don't sell out. If they know their game isn't all that great they just try to buy good PR and screw the gamers. Which makes me wonder..are there many trustworthy gaming sites out there, and which ones are clearly sell-outs?

    4. Re:Let's Be Honest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It appears to be much easier to simply spend oodles on marketing and advertising rather then produce something original.

      Blame it on the market, history tells us that good games and games that get good reviews does not necessarily sell. Well advertised and hyped games, however, DO sell.

      If you want to be really worried about the state of games, budgets for game development have plummeted recently, publishers crying "GFC, lack of credit, lack of market!!!" Budgets for marketing meanwhile, have stayed about the same.

      Admittedly, I was working at the lower end of the market, mostly on license tie-ins. However, publishers seem to be really liking the idea that they can make up for a money shortfall by shuffling more of what's left onto marketing, while letting developers just work longer hours for less, thus producing shittier games. It'll filter up the chain, all the way to the AAA titles that /. fanboys drool over. That's why I've finally left the industry, after 15 years.

    5. Re:Let's Be Honest by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      Ignoring fire and brimstone, let's get back to the broader and real issue at hand. Bad game or bad content for purchase are not really the issues either. The fact is if we had more honest reviews floating around this would be a no brainer. The truth is we as gamers have been sold out countless times by these fan fiction writers who like to pretend they are writing a game review. In my personal experience, Red Dead Redemption was pretty much the worst multiplayer experience I have had in a while. It however managed to have a lot of good reviews. A more recent example of abuse of a good name is COD Black Ops. This is a good example of how to take something that wasn't terribly and just twist it into a hellish house of mirrors reflecting on a shadow of it's former self.

      Simply because you don't agree with the reviews for Red Dead Redemption doesn't make them dishonest. Lots of users I've seen online have loved the multiplayer, so the reviews obviously aren't very far off the mark.

      I mean, I hated Mario 64. I think that turning a well-crafted 2D platformer into 3D was the worst decision a game company has ever made. Does that mean I should accuse all the people who have ever given it a positive review of being liars?

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    6. Re:Let's Be Honest by delinear · · Score: 1

      Red Dead is not about multiplayer. It is a single player game with multiplayer tacked on due to the fact that you can't sell a single player game in today's market for ridiculous reasons. Red Dead got amazing reviews because it is an amazing single player game and I never even once saw a review that commented on the multiplayer at all.

      I'm not sure I completely agree with that assessment, games like Fallout 3/New Vegas and Mass Effect 2 show that it's entirely possible to do a single player game that sells. For me, multiplayer completely ruined RDR. I poured hours into the single player game doing every side quest, exploring every inch of the landscape, etc. (hell, the first time I found the poker minigame I spent the next three hours just playing poker) before finally completing it and I loved every part of it. Then I tried the multiplayer game and found it was a horrible experience - as usual one or two idiots (or sometimes even five or six) constantly ruin the experience for everyone else, to the point that I can't even think about going back to play the undead add-on. I know it's single player, but it's made me so frustrated with the main game that I just don't want to invest more money in it. That's a shame, when 60+ hours of gameplay is spoiled by a couple of hours playing a badly thought out, tacked on multiplayer that in no way adds anything to the game (and in fact probably took development time away that could have been used for a few more missions). Give me a solid single player experience any day.

  7. The only good DLC I've seen by Netshroud · · Score: 2

    Is Valve's DLC. Great additions to Left 4 Dead, Left 4 Dead 2 and Team Fortress 2, without costing the gamer a cent.

    1. Re:The only good DLC I've seen by interactive_civilian · · Score: 1

      I highly agree, except I won't say it's the "only" good DLC. Despite costing money, I've really enjoyed the Borderlands DLC. Great side stories with great humor, some good game enhancements, and most importantly MORE GUNS! :D

      They are largely moot now, as buying the GOTY edition gets you all of the DLC... but they do seem to be guilty of making you actually download the DLC rather than having on the physical disc when you buy retail. This doesn't affect me as I bought the game and its DLCs previously, on Steam.

      But, yes, Valve with L4D(2) and TF2 are a fine example of great DLC systems. :D

      --
      "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
    2. Re:The only good DLC I've seen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I completely disagree. I enjoyed the hell out of tf2 when it first came out, but where its at now just expanded on all the things I hated most about tf2. I quit a long time ago (around the scout patch), but now that theyre selling items that give you an advantage I wish I could re-quit.

      Valves DLC is annoying in the way modded servers in CS were annoying - Some people were trying to have what they felt was fun, but instead a bunch of random people are forced to play that way or leave. But at least in CS, you could just hop in to another server and play the real game.

      I wish Valve would have just made all of these additions some kind of server mod instead of global unlockables. I know you can mod the server to remove them, but thats so rare and just an annoying way to do it.

    3. Re:The only good DLC I've seen by Fallingcow · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I wouldn't say L4D had DLC. It had the rest of the game that should have been there at launch, and which those of us who pre-ordered were told would be there eventually. That's not DLC, it's "whoops, we very obviously sold you 2/3 of a game at full price, so here's a patch to enable shit that was already in it but didn't work quite right so we couldn't enable it at launch, and here's a very tiny kind of crappy campaign we had the intern toss together to make up for your not having the entire game you paid for until a couple months after it was released".

      We were also told there would be all kinds of extras released for free over time, like those for TF2--that part never happened, and the map editor was delayed for months, seemingly to prevent L4D from becoming too entrenched and/or preventing modders from cloning too many of L4D2's announced features (many of which were promised as free patches for L4D--go figure) so that the sequel wouldn't flop.

      It was either a dick move on Valve's part, or utterly incompetent management of the L4D project. Either way, though I still like them better than most game dev companies, I won't be buying any future Valve multiplayer games until they've been out for a while and I'm sure they're going to support it as they promised and not cut its feet out from under it by announcing a sequel 6 months after its release, to hit shelves a year after its release.

  8. Good and bad by ZildjianKX · · Score: 1

    There is a whole range of DLC. Some of it really needs to die. GREAT: Wipeout HD Fury: Doubled the length of the game and added new multiplayer modes for $10. TERRIBLE: Oblivion horse armor. Assassin's Creed 2 sequences that were clearly cut from the game due to time restraints. All overpriced map packs. I really wish people would stop buying this crap so companies would stop making it. While we're talking about DLC, I wish retailer exclusive DLC for pre-ordering would go away.

    1. Re:Good and bad by Sovetskysoyuz · · Score: 1

      And then there's RailWorks, a $40 game that has $920 worth of DLC available on Steam, and more comes out practically every week. It's perhaps the only game that could be as expensive to play as the hobby that it simulates (model trains).

    2. Re:Good and bad by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I've been fascinated by RailWorks 2, where buying the full bundle on steam is £520. I was sufficiently intrigued to go hunting for a community around that 'game' and found a forum full of people welcoming the opportunity to buy the newest DLC and celebrating the fact it was only £9 (for a single model of a single train).

      I've gone from berating the developers for profiteering to admiring their identification of a niche market and meeting its needs.

  9. Just wait for the GOTY. by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I bought Fallout 3 when it first came out. Had a blast, but was occupied at the time and didn't buy the DLC. In the intrim the GOTY edition came out, with all the DLC, for $50. Only problem is, the DLC hasn't dropped in price -- and there is $50 of it. Now I can either buy $50 of DLC, or $50 for the GOTY edition. Either way they want me to spend $100 on the game, and I can't justify that. Something is wrong here!

    Now I just wait for the GOTY edition to come out.

    1. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by justinmikehunt · · Score: 1, Informative

      Exactly. I've stopped buying many games near launch, mainly because of budget. These days games drop in price so fast (except AAA Wii titles!), that within a year I can usually get them for about $20. But a pleasant side effect of this, is that within that year, many games release a GOTY edition, and I get all that DLC with it!

    2. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by gman003 · · Score: 1

      I had something related happen with Oblivion. I bought the "Game of the Year" edition, which had the 2 biggest DLC. I put about a hundred hours into it. I kept considering the DLC, but it was just overpriced - about $20 for the seven or so bits of DLC I didn't have. Then I noticed that the "Deluxe" edition (full game and all the DLC) was on sale for $10. It was actually cheaper to buy the whole game again than to buy the DLC. Go figure.

    3. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by wjousts · · Score: 1

      I was in the same boat. I got FO3 just after release, played the hell out of it, but wasn't going to spring for the DLC because of the stupid requirement that you buy it with Microsoft points. Then last week I picked up the GOTY edition from Amazon for about $30. It grinds my gears to buy the same game twice, so I'm trying to convince myself that I've picked up all the DLC for $30 instead of $50.

      Just started a whole new game of FO3 because I hadn't played for months, didn't want to try and pick up where my last character left off and thought it would be easier to start over. Having a blast, but haven't started any of the DLC yet because I need to build my character up a bit first.

      Still can't bring myself to blowing up Megaton.

    4. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by ndavis · · Score: 1

      I bought Fallout 3 when it first came out. Had a blast, but was occupied at the time and didn't buy the DLC. In the intrim the GOTY edition came out, with all the DLC, for $50. Only problem is, the DLC hasn't dropped in price -- and there is $50 of it. Now I can either buy $50 of DLC, or $50 for the GOTY edition. Either way they want me to spend $100 on the game, and I can't justify that. Something is wrong here!

      Now I just wait for the GOTY edition to come out.

      I agree this is what I'm starting to do as well.

      I think DLC is fine if it adds something to the game or in the case of multiplayer where the original purchaser gets it for free but a used copy needs to buy a code.

      However to require that I purchase DLC to get online or an extra map after you purchase the game new seems stupid because at that point you are helping the used game market even more as people will wait for the price to drop so as they know they will have to purchase the DLC to play it.

    5. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by whoop · · Score: 1

      So, sell the original game for 40-50% of the cost. I frequently see things like Fallout 3 for Xbox360 on my town's Craiglist page at around that price. Or use eBay, Goozex, etc for something similar. Then you can recoup some of the cost. As an early adopter, this is the price you pay. You get to enjoy the game's content for that year or so, while I don't get to enjoy it until I buy that Game-of-the-Year (such a stupid marketing term, btw) a year or year-and-a-half later.

    6. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by Rashan · · Score: 1

      This is the exact reason why I have not bought the DLC for FO3 or DragonAge: Origins.

      Why not release all the DLC in a reduced price bundle when the GOTY edition is released? I'm not going to purchase the game twice, but I would be willing to shell out a reasonable amount for all the DLC at one go.

      --
      Insert witty .sig HERE.
    7. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by wjousts · · Score: 1

      Yeah, not worth the effort.

    8. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by Tridus · · Score: 1

      That happened to me with Dragon Age: Origins. Bought it early. Bought none of the DLC, as most Bioware DLC is horribly overpriced.

      Now they have the "ultimate edition" which for less then the price of the original version has that, the expansion, and all DLC. But there's no DLC combo pack for people like me, I'd have to pay full price for all of it.

      Result? I'm skipping the sequel until it has an "ultimate edition" too... and if I still care by then, maybe I'll get it. If not, Bioware can go fuck themselves.

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    9. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by Phil(i+think) · · Score: 1

      Actually I think this is a big problem with DLC. The game drops in price over time, eventually making it to the bargain bin but the DLC stays at the same price until the servers a re taken down, at which point it is unavailable for purchase and if you did buy it you can't play it anymore.

    10. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by Chelloveck · · Score: 1

      Now I just wait for the GOTY edition to come out.

      Amen, brother! I've been buying off the discount shelf for years. I've picked up some damned good games that way, games that I would never even have looked at at full price. TRON 2.0 and Freedom Force both come to mind. I even bought the sequel to FF the day it was released, simply because I'd liked the original that I got for less than $10 so much.

      I'm absolutely in love with Steam and the fact that they often have deep discounts on stuff. I picked up Left 4 Dead 1 & 2 for $10 each, including DLC. (And if I'd waited a little longer I could have bought them both as a 2-pack for $15... *sigh*) I acknowledge that with Steam I'm really just renting the games, but at that price I don't mind. I picked up Civ III and Civ IV plus all expansions for $12.95 -- and I already owned the disks! But for the PC, and I have a Mac now. It's worth the price to play them natively instead of in VMware.

      Hell, I've even been buying some games I may never get around to playing. I've bought some PC-only games that run marginally (or worse) in VMware. Why? They were cheap, they looked interesting, and I can install a Bootcamp partition if I ever get a serious urge to play. I got Overlord and its sequel for $4. Oblivion for $8.50. Supreme Commander 2 and its expansion for $8.50. It's doubtful that Mac versions will ever be released, but if they are it's almost certain that Steam will let me play them.

      Games inevitably go on sale for dirt cheap. They are just as fun then as they are when they're first released. Multiplayer games may be an exception if their communities have moved on to something else by the time the game's on sale, but I'm in it for single-player almost exclusively.

      That said, I'm willing to buy Civ V the day it's released for the Mac. I love the Civ series and I'll gladly pay full price. But who knows? It'll have been out for the PC for a month or two by the time the Mac port is released. Maybe Steam will have it on sale...

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
    11. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by karmarep · · Score: 1

      Same boat as many people with DA

      I have the Dragon Age: Origins game and never purchased any of the DLC. I really enjoyed the game, but not enough to pay more for "extra content" that really should have been part of the game or been free.

      Now they have a GOTY or "ultimate" version that has the game I already OWN! + the DLC for $50! meh...

      They should release a complete DLC pack for $10 or include ALL OF IT now for pre-ordering the Dragon Age II game.

    12. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ++.

      This is why I never buy games new.
      While I admit I bought a new computer for Doom3, I now realize that because there are so many older games out there which I will never have enough time to play; that there are no new games that I cannot wait a year before playing.

    13. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by cowscows · · Score: 1

      A few years back I skipped a hardware upgrade cycle, so for a year or two I was basically unable to play most of the new games because my computer couldn't handle it. When I finally got a new machine, I didn't go top of the line specs, which saved me some money but still had enough horsepower to run all those older games that I had missed. And as you mentioned older games drop in price pretty quickly, so I save more money there. Being a year or so behind the times is much cheaper, and if you can tough out the first year, you'll always have plenty of stuff that's new to you.

      The two potential problems with this plan is with some multiplayer games, the community may have died out before you get to it, but in most cases if that's happened within a year, the game wasn't all that great to begin with. The other problem is that there might still be a decent sized community, but it's whittled down to the hardcore players, who you will have a tough time competing with because they've got so much more practice and you're just starting. But if you can tough that out, you'll eventually catch up enough to be competitive.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    14. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, not worth the effort.

      Then stop complaining.

    15. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      I won't buy anything from them because their damned FREE DLC forced my savegames into a 'Must log into servers' before I can play.

      It freaking phones home every time I try to play the damned game. Oh crap my connection is down, guess I don't get to play the game.

      And I don't give a damn if there is some way to fix it or get around it. My game should work when I go to play it no matter what the state of my internet connection is or was.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    16. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by ukyoCE · · Score: 1

      The way games work these days, there is a LOT to be said for waiting until a price drop (or several) before buying. By then the game is stable, more optimized, the design is often improved in important areas, and the DLC may even be included.

      There are too many $20 (bought new) excellent games out there right now for me to justify buying brand new $50-60 broken games.

      Where they get you is with the multiplayer that all your friends are playing when its $50, and sick of when its down to $20.

    17. Re:Just wait for the GOTY. by sulfur · · Score: 1

      Obligatory XKCD. But seriously, I also follow this strategy. It really amazes me how resource-hungry modern games have become. Fallout:NV lags on low settings on my NV 8800 GTS 512 that was considered top card only a couple of years ago, and no, I'm not spending another $1.3k on a new system any time soon. Back when CRT monitors were popular at least you could play on a lower resolution; now, non-native resolutions just look ugly.

  10. Thumbs up for Valve by Durzel · · Score: 2, Funny

    Valve have the right idea, they don't charge for DLC as they realise that increased exposure and limited-time discounts on the full game actually make them money. You wouldn't catch Valve doing anything depressingly contrived as offering little virtual trinkets for real cash....

    1. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by Barny · · Score: 1

      Best, post, evah :)

      But in all honesty, they don't require you to buy the trinkets, they can still drop, but buying them is a way for people with some spare cash to have some fun quicker.

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    2. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For those who missed the sarcasm... Team Fortress 2 recently opened a cash shop for in game items.

    3. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what they want you to think, when in fact *all* their games are essentially DLC now.

    4. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, and artificially creates an unbalanced community divide of those who are rich and those who are poor.
      And yes, it does make a difference.
      "Fun quicker" comes at the expense of others who have put the effort in to actually gaining the items through playing.
      They should have made a split in the servers, those who wish to use the MannCo Store system, and those who wish to let the "Drop system" do its thing instead. (Obviously they could have came up with better names than the ones i mentioned)
      Both should have been independent of each other, 2 separate sub-profiles.

      The MannCo update was the worst update in the whole of Steam history. Lost a whole bunch of respect for them that day.
      It opens up a gateway to more devs possibly trying this sort of thing.

    5. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by Gaygirlie · · Score: 1

      Well, I can't see Valve in as negative light as you try to portray them in. No, I haven't played any Valve games in ages, but Steam itself is damn near perfect: I don't need to find installation media, I don't need to find patches, I don't need to worry about keeping my games functional.. And I personally love how they have the midweek and weekend sales. I just recently bought Batman: Arkham Asylum for 17 euro and I really have to say it was worth every penny! But try and buy that game somewhere else and you'll not get it for only 17€. Or maybe a used copy.

      I am just saying that I have no idea about Valve games, but they _are_ doing atleast something really well and actually providing an excellent service to gamers.

    6. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 'Unusual' hats that can be found in crates don't drop.

    7. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by delinear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's the difference between a community divide of those who are rich and poor and a community divide of those who have countless hours to sink into grinding for rare item drops and those who have very little gaming time and they want to enjoy it and not spend it grinding and still failing to keep up because students and people without jobs can spend all week on the game? As for the two profile idea, that's all well and good but if all your friends joined the pay as you go server, you'd either have to find a new bunch of friends or join their server but now without even the option to get the items from drops. Personally I don't think items that give a genuine advantage should ever be allowed for sale in multiplayer games, but if they are I'd rather see a mixed system where people who are cash rish and time poor and people who are time rich and cash poor can compete on a roughly even keel.

    8. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by Barny · · Score: 1

      But you can trade for keys ;)

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    9. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by ukyoCE · · Score: 1

      Weren't these only "dress-up barbie" cosmetic items?

      Or did they also include weapons and other "required-to-play" content that CAN be obtained for free in-game, but only through laborious grinding?

      I know they said something like "all items can also be obtained in-game", but you put enough hours or a small enough droprate on those items and it's effectively for-pay only.

    10. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by Yeef · · Score: 1

      In TF2 hats are the rarest and most sought-after items. The vast majority of hats are purely cosmetic (there are 4 hats that are part of class sets that give you a bonus if you wear all of the items in the set). There isn't really any 'grinding' in TF2. The way the drop system works you receive an entirely random drop every once in awhile just for playing. Most of the time it's a weapon, but very very rarely it's a hat. There's a limit to how many drops you can get per week (I think it's 8, but I'm not positive) and it takes about 8 hours of playtime to hit your limit. If you don't get all of your items for the week the extras will roll over into the next week. All weapons can be found via random drops, gained through class-specific achievements, traded for or crafted. If you're trying to get a specific weapon it's extremely easy to do so.

      An important thing to note is that even if you find you don't have the time to play for drops you can still get all of your drops for the week. Since the only requirement is being in-game for 8 hours a week you can simply run TF2 in offline and text only modes while you sleep one night and you'll get all of your drops for the week.

      It's also important to point out that most weapons and set bonuses are 'sidegrades' to the default ones. That is, they do something better but also have a drawback. They're very much designed to foster different playstyles than they are straight upgrades. For example, the Pyro's "Backburner" flamethrower does more standard damage and always does critical (3x) damage from behind, but doesn't have the ability to airblast like the standard flamethrower. The airblast is a very versatile and useful ability that can be used to reflect projectiles back at attackers, extinguish burning teammates and push enemies away (usually to keep them from destroying sentry guns or off of cliffs to their deaths).

      One other thing to keep in mind is that many of the items in TF2 were designed by players in the community and not Valve themselves. Anytime one of those community-made items sells in the store the creator gets a cut of the profits.

      --
      I was once a horse.
    11. Re:Thumbs up for Valve by JohnnyBGod · · Score: 1

      I've heard that said before, and I really don't see what the problem is. Every single one of the unlockables in TF2 represents a trade-off. None are actually "better" than the stock weapons.

  11. Generalize much? by Squeeself · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    Please do one of the following:
    1. 1) Name a AAA title that has released on-disk content as a DLC after release that has negatively impacted the game without purchasing the DLC. If content wasn't missed, how can you say the game "incomplete?"
    2. 2) Name an overpriced DLC you were required to purchase in order to enjoy a game. If it's too expensive, don't buy. If it's worth it to you, buy it.
    3. 3) Again, name a DLC that is a remake of other content that was required to purchase to enjoy the game. Same thing as above.

    Now, if games start having their primary content locked unless you pay for additional DLCs, sure, there's a huge problem. But these other problems? Stop whining. Games are a product with really, really big teams that work long hours to get a game in your hands. Game devs want nothing more than to deliver bigger, better games to you, and DLCs allow them to jumpstart additional content easily, and to respond to market demand efficiently. In addition, game devs can deliver content that was not entirely ready at ship, which would otherwise be cut. Everybody wins with DLCs...unless you demand all that work for free or want less game content overall. You're getting more options in choosing how much you pay for your game content...In any other industry but gaming, consumers would be rejoicing. (And no, it's not some scheme to milk out more money than in the past...There is just literally more work going into making modern games than there was even just a couple years ago, and the trend keeps going up. DLC allows some of the breadth of that content--like, say, additional, optional maps--to be in the game without breaking the bank, period.)

    1. Re:Generalize much? by moriya · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can't effectively counter the points you made with regards to what title has done this or that. But I'd like to point out a current example of something similar. It isn't exactly as described. But it is somewhere along that route.

      Battlefield: Bad Company 2 was released earlier in the year and practically on Day 1, there was a "map pack" released. If you were to remove the PC platform from the equation, you could say that this is akin to point #1 to 2nd-hand buyers of the game. Those who purchase BC2 as a used product would not be able to get this map pack, along with 5 others (soon to be 6) released. As a result, a player who do want to play on these maps would have to cough up cash in order to get a feel for it. Even worse so is that there is no way to really try it out to see if it is worth the price.

      As for point #3, DICE is now notorious for this. Their VIP Map Packs 2 through 6 are largely the same, and contains virtually everything that was already seen in-game and was on the game disc. However, they were largely either locked or needed a few additional files in order to fill in the spaces. The community for BC2 has since then coined the term "Mode Packs" as the maps are the same but only its layout are different. It is akin to remaking other content, when these content should have been either finished or released since Day 1.

      I have played the game on the PC end for many months. It is irritating at times that these so-called "new maps" are nothing more than the same thing but just in a different mode. Many of the players in the BC2 community also feel the same as well. We do want new maps but the same maps designed and played differently isn't our definition of "new."

      You say that games are products w/ big teams. I've no issue with that. A game being worked on by a large development team will definitely be working hard to make it as good as possible. However, the growing issue at hand is the lack of content being shipped with the game. More and more games are becoming less complete or less fulfilling because they lack the content that long-time gamers have wanted. PC players are becoming more left out because of how games are being designed today due to the overwhelming market of the console platform. And with DLC, the developers and the publishers are using that option to rake in as much cash as possible in order to keep players playing their games.

      I personally do not mind DLC as a whole, as long as the game itself is fulfilling, enjoyable, and has plenty of things to do in it. But this is not the case any more. DLC is stifling the modding community and the PC players are getting shafted and ignored. The devs and publishers are too narrow-minded to focus on anything else.

    2. Re:Generalize much? by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      to give an example of earlier shenanigans from DICE:

      Battlefield 2 had several expansions, two of which were only available as DLC. My experience is with the first, non-dlc one (special forces). People who bought the SF expansion could use new weapons, unlocked in the expansion in the normal game on non-expansion maps. One effect of this was, that i, as a sniper, was continiously outclassed by people with the slightly better sniper-rifle they got in the expansion. In the end i bought the expansion, mainly just to level the playing field. (i did end up enjoying one of the maps in the expansion) Essentially, i gave in to the blackmailing.

      DLC can break the balance very badly in multiplayer games, forcing people to choose:
      - abandon the game alltogether
      - pay up for the DLC to get back on equal footing with your peers
      - shut up and take the assraping in every single round because your gear is slightly inferior

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    3. Re:Generalize much? by delinear · · Score: 1

      You're trying to paint this as a disagreement between gamers and hard-working games developers. That's not the case at all - in fact most gamers and games developers want exactly the same thing, a polished gaming experience, even if it costs a little more or takes a little more time to accomplish that. As is so often the case, it's the man in the middle, the publisher, who tries to rush out unfinished games to hit arbitary deadlines.

    4. Re:Generalize much? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      DICE really have managed to take a very valuable and enjoyable brand (Battlefield) and exploit it to the extent that I just have no interest in it at all.

      It went from being balanced, fun and accessible to requiring heavy time commitment to unlock the items needed to stay balanced, and as you've pointed out, started making it necessary to pay RL cash to compete.

      I refuse to play games that explicitly require time or money invested to balance the game. If someone's more skilled because they've practiced more, then that's fair and I have incentive to learn from them. If someone has an advantage because the game gives them capabilities I lack then that's inherently unfair and I'm just not going to play.

      What's the best equivalent to BF:V these days? Fast-paced well balanced quick-entry multiplayer FPS?

  12. Oh, by omfgnosis · · Score: 2, Funny

    the humanity.

  13. Maps for Uncharted 2 were not $9.99 a piece by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nor were skins.

    The first DLC map was free.
    The next two maps were $3.99 for the pair.
    The next two maps were in a $9.99 pack with an additional co-op game mode and six skins.

    There were two skins packs, each was $6 (IIRC, I didn't buy either of them).
    There was also a motion comic pack which came with two skins.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:Maps for Uncharted 2 were not $9.99 a piece by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm one cheap bastard, and I have to say that the ONLY DLC I've ever bought after 25+ years of gaming were the extra maps in UC2. I think I paid a total of $6 for maybe 3 new maps + one gameplay type and it was totally worth it. It was relatively cheap and added some value.

      That said-- I wouldn't waste any $ on skins or anything, but maybe someone else would think they were worthwhile...

      If they trickled out a whole game this way, I would be pissed. As an add-on to the full, rich game-on-BD, it was worth it.

    2. Re:Maps for Uncharted 2 were not $9.99 a piece by anss123 · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Both F.E.A.R 2 and Bioshock 2 had DLC worth the cost to me. I don't see what the complaining is about; don't like it, don't buy it.

      Of course, if the $5 gives you an unfair advantage in multiplayer it's another matter.

  14. DLC just sucks.... by metalmaster · · Score: 1

    Im a sucker for fighting games, but i'd guess that First Person Shooters are in the same boat. Adding extra characters or maps to a game just doesnt do it justice.

    The only game i bought DLC for was WWE SmackDown vs. RAW 2010(?) The pack included a few new wrestlers that were on the current roster but arrived after the cutoff date.There were a few alternate costumes as well. This was sort of a double-edged sword. The developers obviously have to make a cut-off date for when they stop adding content(characters and stories) and the wrestling product is constantly growing and changing. Anyone who has played this game(or its other releases) knows that the character creation mode is quite extensive. With a bit of creativity you can make a character look like anyone and design any moveset you want(lets face it all pro wrestlers use the same strikes and throws.) Is it deliberate that they left these characters out? Probably not. Does the added content significantly change the game to make it anymore interesting? Not so much

    I bought the content with an expiring cash card that had just enough for the purchase, so no big loss.

    I'd have to think that FPS games are in a similar boat. Once you play the game enough that you could do it on autopilot(been there) does that new map really matter?

    I do believe the developers could add more in the way of objectives to a game. Should they hold out on missions from the main story arc? No. It would make sense if they decided to add new side missions though. This would work especially well for sandbox games. In my example above, they could add a few of the more current stories from the wrestling product.

  15. A gamers worst nightmare? by lxs · · Score: 1

    Seriously?

    Wasting a couple of dollars? Getting knifed IRL by the n00b you've humiliated online, now that's a nightmare.

    1. Re:A gamers worst nightmare? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Came here to say this. Hyperbole is a Slashdot reader's worst nightmare.

  16. DLC = price discrimination by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    Price discrimination is an economics term that means charging different prices to different customers of your product. In real-world situations, you have to vary the product a bit in order to actually carry out such a practice effectively; DLC is one way of introducing such variations.
    Freemium websites are another example, close-up versus further-back seats at sporting events and concerts provide another example. Scholarships given by the university itself are another example.

    Why do this? Get sales from cheap customers who would otherwise ignore the product, while still being able to collect from the big spenders.

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  17. Return Policy by NoZart · · Score: 1

    Just give the ability to return the DLC somehow. Then bad DLC will have no chance.

  18. OMG corpra$hunZOneOneEleventyOne by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Where a publisher stands to make some money, gamers get screwed.

    Yes, all of us round here know that it's completely impossible to produce something that's good AND commercially successful.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  19. Simultaneous release of Game & DLC by Aceticon · · Score: 1

    It seems to me that the most obnoxious, in-your-face form of screwing customers up is when a game is released at the same time (or very close to) the first DLC pack. That's pretty much a statement of "We could have it in the game but we we're charging extra for it instead". In fact, given the track record of the major Game Publishers I suspect that the first DLC pack is in fact content that was purposefully removed from the main release for selling later for extra.

    More in general the evilness (or not) of DLC should be determined by looking at two things:

    1. Would what is being released as DLC come in as part of a normal (free) update in the past
    2. Is having the DLC pack required to actually play the game? For example a pack that ties-in and completes unfinished plot/quest-lines in an RPG or a competitiveness increasing pack in an online FPS/RTS

    If a DLC pack is essentially a set of bug-fixes, the finishing content for the base-game that should've been part of the main release or tilts the competive space on an online game, then it's Evil DLC and gamers should punish the publisher for that by blacklisting their products.

    The same thing also applies to game expansions - even before DLC, some game publishers already screwed customers by releasing game expansions which did all those things described above. Sony Entertainment for example completelly turned me off of buying any Sony product when they released a "game expansion" for Battlefield 2 which was required to fix bugs in the base game and tilted the competitive playing field in favour of those with the expansion (in an Online FPS it added more powerfull weapons for those with the expansion).

    Personally I vote with me wallet and will not buy any game with DLC. Maybe I'm missing the one or two games where DLC actually adds real value above that which would've never been added under the normal post-release update cycle but I don't have the time and the patience to find the possible one or two jewels in a pile of broken glass.

  20. Compare to boardgames and RPGs by mcvos · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's interesting to see how DLC is detested in computer games. In boardgames, expansions are popular and sell like wildfire, even if they tend to hurt the game experience (the basic game is often sleek and elegant, and expansions add lots of extra crap). But when people love a game, they love to pay to get even more of it. In RPGs it's even worse: a game is considered unsupported if there's not a regular schedule of source books and other stuff prying money out of our wallets. But here, more stuff usually gives the game more viability. The basic rules are nice to get you going, but we want more setting, more adventures, more careers/classes/abilities/spells, etc.

    There's no real reason for it. There are lots of excellent games that have a complete and very enjoyable game in a single package, but the big sellers are the ones that keep releasing more and more stuff.

    Why wouldn't this work for computer games? A big part of it is of course the way in which the game is released. If the basic game is broken and no fun at all, you'd be crazy to spend money to get more. Releasing an incomplete game and finishing it in DLC is a terrible idea. But releasing a small but fun complete game for a reasonable price, and then selling expansions and more content to those who love it so much they want to get more out of the game, that sounds like a very sensible approach. A company might make the last game you'll ever need, and live from continued support, expansions and new ideas for that game, and of course the new customers that are attracted to such a well-supported game. But yes, it needs to be about honest support, and not merely teasing some extra money out of your customers' wallet.

    I think there's also a collector's itch at work with boardgames and RPGs, though. That's probably less the case with computer games, simply because they're not physical products.

    1. Re:Compare to boardgames and RPGs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's interesting to see how DLC is detested in computer games. In boardgames, expansions are popular and sell like wildfire,

      The thing is, DLC for major titles often isn't an expansion. For big corporations it's solely a business decision to squeeze more money out of customers, not a feature to provide more interesting stuff to customers.

      They poisoned the perception of DLC as bad because they use it to sell trivial/cosmetic junk, to charge extra for content ripped from the full version which is thus too short or as a means to discourage used sales.

      DLC in this context has been introduced to the disadvantage of the consumer. The examples of "good" DLC don't get equal publicity because it's generally done for smaller games. So, it's no wonder so many people dislike it.

      I think there's also a collector's itch at work with boardgames and RPGs, though. That's probably less the case with computer games, simply because they're not physical products.

      Publishers are actively trying to prevent said collector's itch with restrictive DRM. You cannot actually buy a big title. You just rent it until they decide to turn their DRM servers off. You cannot collect what you cannot own.

    2. Re:Compare to boardgames and RPGs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think the issue is DLC as an object, but that it is often used to break one product into several.

      Medal of Honor is a good example, only 8 maps in multiplayer, a few more as free DLC and some as Paid DLC (The free DLC is done to stop 2nd hand sales as free DLC from EA is not available to second hand buyers).

      Someone said it earlier, when a game comes out with "enough" content, the extra stuff is good value and no-one is "forced" into getting it - there is nothing better. When the marketing dept (or whoever) get hold of a complete game and withholds parts to sell or give away after release for their benefit it's bad.

    3. Re:Compare to boardgames and RPGs by dropzonetoe · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, I really don't get upset about the DLC in games as long as they don't give the upper hand by having them. I mean that if the games play is skewed by player one downloading the BFG that does extra damage and the only way for player two to have a chance is to buy it as well to keep the arms racing going. I am against something like that. For the boardgames and RPG's I think it is more of a mindset of time. I can pull out my boxes of munchkin now or 2 years down the line and use all the expansions and have fun. I can start a 2nd ed AD&D campaign now or in 20 years and it is still the same. Video games are more disposable I think. Not taking into count the people who still throw in the classic and play them on their loved NES's or Dosbox out some Populus. Take for example Call of duty MW2, I have bought the game 2 times - For the PS3 and the 360 I have also bought the map-packs for both of them. Math wise it was something like ... 60+60+15+15+15+15 = $180 on one game. Now I have spent around 30 full days playing the game on the 360 and something like 10 days on the PS3 that is 960 hours of game time. I feel that I got my money's worth for what I paid. Now BLACK OPS is out, will I go back and play the DLC on the older game... most likely not. Will my buddies around the world want to link up and play it? Not really. It will gather dust in the corner. I can leaf through my old source books or shift through my game boxes but DLC is not physical. It sits there as long as the game's servers run. At a point it is forgotten about like that old ring-tone you bought when you first got your phone.

      --
      Look out, you'll shoot Dorkus.
    4. Re:Compare to boardgames and RPGs by scot4875 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can't speak for everyone, but my opinion on this subject is that when you buy an expansion for a board game or an RPG, you *own* it. You can use it, put it in your closet for 5 years, then take it out again and it will still be there. You can turn around and sell it or give it to a friend.

      With DLC, you don't actually own anything. You have your original disc, and you have access to the DLC for as long as the company selling it is kind enough to let you keep using it. But if you get your XBox 1080, then in 5 years decide you'd like to go back and play one of your 360 games, it's a crapshoot as to whether or not you'll have access to any of that DLC.

      This is why I don't buy DLC, personally. It's imaginary property. I'm sure I'll have to break down and buy it soon enough, because that's the way the industry is heading, but for the time being I don't feel that it's justified; I have plenty of other things to do and to play without resorting to DLC.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    5. Re:Compare to boardgames and RPGs by dmneoblade · · Score: 1

      The Sims series by EA does exactly that. One downfall it ends up causing is that if you have all of the Sims 2 expansions, and get a new computer, it will take over 4 hours to get the game fully installed, with LOTS of disk switching.

      --
      Warning, knife is sharp. Please keep out of children.
  21. Mandatory DLCs by TechBCEternity · · Score: 2, Interesting

    With Modern Warfare 2 it gets worse,

    you need the DLCs or you won't get matched into a multiplayer game or when you do you get kicked out after a couple levels

  22. Mods! by thyrial · · Score: 1

    DLC! , like mods , only you have to pay for them! One of the things I hate about modern consoles is how they turned the idea of mods and add-dons or games with fun extra content (like the tons of unlockables you used to get in Namco fighting/racing games) into a way of squeezing more money out of gamers. I think a lot of the reason publishers are abandoning the PC is that PC gamers are used to getting this stuff for free (or making it for others and distributing it for free)and it's a lot harder to sell the idea of DLC to them. Still ,thank God Valve are still invested in PC games , at least for now(TF2 and LFD have gotten a shedload of free content since release)...

  23. My Real Problem With DLC is that it drives DRM! by avatar139 · · Score: 1

    Not to mention driving the industry in general off a cliff, by giving credence to the concept that products that I can still buy physically in a store are actually services that I can only legally use at the publisher's discretion!

    --
    I'm honest enough to admit I lie to myself.
    1. Re:My Real Problem With DLC is that it drives DRM! by gman003 · · Score: 1

      Actually, not really. The only DLC I really bought was from Bethesda, and the DLC itself has no DRM. Found that out when I bought the DLC for Oblivion on Steam, then just copied the files over to my existing disc-based install of Oblivion. Worked seamlessly. Same for Fallout 3. While DLC could potentially be used to add more DRM, I haven't seen it happen.

  24. I gave them what they wanted. by santax · · Score: 1

    And now all my software is DLC. (But I did buy every single carpack for forza 3 lol)

  25. Is there a chance to fix this system by ledow · · Score: 1

    Is there a chance to fix this system?

    Yes. Stop buying that stuff. Amazing how that simple answer is so often overlooked.

  26. Civilization V DLC by blind+biker · · Score: 1

    I feel that $5 for Babylonia was too much. But it pales in comparison to $50 for a game that continuously crashes in the latter stages of the game.

    (This demonstrates the sheer vicious genius of the Firaxis product managers, who decided to release a demo limited to 100 turns - way before the crashes start.)

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    1. Re:Civilization V DLC by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      In fairness to Firaxis, I (and I'm not the only one) have never had crashing problems with Civ V. I'm not discounting that some do have a problem, but it's not a universal problem, so it's not unreasonable to say that they didn't see it coming.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    2. Re:Civilization V DLC by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      Far from it being an universal problem, but it affects more than 10% of people, according to polls on CivFanatics and 2K Civ V forums (and not in the support forums, either - just the general Civ V discussion). IMHO, it affects so many setups that Firaxis must have known.

      Glad it works for you, though.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
  27. Don't want it? DON'T BUY IT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And stop being a whiny little kid.
    Also, add slashvertisement to tags, probably some other random person linking to their random blog ranting on about "bad DLC ooo evil companies wanting to make money"

    Also, try to get your facts straight for the next rant, some were terribly wrong. (Uncharted 2 very much so)
    There is nothing wrong with the DLC system, just a FEW developers who do abuse it.

    You can't use the "on a budget" line with gaming! Gaming is a HOBBY, not a necessity! DLC certainly isn't a necessity, it is called EXTRAS for a reason!
    Gaming is, and always HAS been an EXPENSIVE hobby. Hell, gaming is cheaper now than it has been for a while. Games used to cost significantly more than this at one point.

    Why am i even replying to this? Such a waste of bytes on both ends.

  28. How long *should* a game be? by VendettaMF · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The correct reference point for how long a game should be is "Elite" on the BBC Micro by Braben et al.

    --
    kartune85 : Incapable of reason, observation or learning. A kind of dim, drab, flightless parrot.
  29. My answer to all DLC is simply patience by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I just wait a year or so for the Gold/Ultimate/GOTY edition of a game which comes with all addons and DLC built-in for £20 or less. Money saved, disaster averted.

    --
    Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
    1. Re:My answer to all DLC is simply patience by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      I could link to the xkcd, but I do play all my games on a 5 year lag. Sometimes even longer...

    2. Re:My answer to all DLC is simply patience by metamatic · · Score: 1

      Trouble is, they're getting wise to that. Now the GotY editions are starting to come with download codes, rather than the DLC on the disc--thus reducing the value of the GotY edition. e.g. PS3 Borderlands, it's basically as cheap to buy the original game and DLC as it is to buy the GotY edition.

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
  30. DLC is good when done right. by brunes69 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Look at what Rockstar has done with Red Dead. First DLC pack is free and adds totally new capabilities to the game.

    Now, one might argue this pack has content that should have came with he game in the first place and all it means is the game was rushed...

    Well, that explanation does not hold water with the Red Dead Undead pack, because it really is a totally new storyline and side-plot of the game, where you kill freaking zombies. It is also VERY well done and well worth the $10.

  31. I long for the old days by trawg · · Score: 2, Informative

    I cannot belieeeeeeeeeeeve how quickly gamers fell for DLC. Or maybe I should say, I can't belieeeeeeeve how quickly I have turned into one of those old codgers saying, "back in my day..." - but a lot of the guys I grew up playing games with are now in the DLC trap, so it's not just a case of newbie gamers not knowing any better.

    Remember when you'd get a game, and then there'd be a level editor and maybe some mod tools? And then a few weeks after the game was out and you'd played the shit out of it, the first crappy maps would come out? And maybe a proof-of-concept mod?

    Then a month or so later, a mate would tell you about this great new map, and you'd fire it up together and play it. Then someone would tell you about some crazy new mod with a funny name like "Team Fortress" or "Counter-Strike" or "Desert Combat" that was a bit hacky, but still really good fun. Then more people would play, and it would grow, and change, and mature, and turn into a solid product all of its own.

    All the new school games just don't follow this model. They're cutting out almost any possibility of this process occurring by closing their development environments and charging $5 for every map under the guise of premium DLC, when they could create an ecosystem of nearly unlimited potential that would not only virtually enslave their player base and lead to more sales, but also lead to these entire amazing new brands for them to cash in on.

    Team Fortress started as a free mod and turned into TF2 (with a very long lead time), one of Valve's most successful brands now. Counter-strike is still ludicrously popular. Desert Combat (mod for BF1942) evolved into Battlefield 2. Red Orchestra turned into a successful standalone game.

    Sure, not every mod turns into a huge amazing thing, but if you create a remotely decent game with well-thought out multiplayer and throw in decent development tools, you can STILL create premium DLC and sell it to users, but you'll also get vast amounts of free content for your game. And as long as you have a vaguely decent management system for your online CD keys, pretty much each game will be a sale.

    GET OFF MY LAWN

  32. Gears of War 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bought a map pack so I could play more levels of multiplayer horde online. As soon as a new map pack became available I couldn't play these maps online any longer because in order to play extra levels online you need to have them all. Otherwise you're limited to the default maps. Shit like this ought to be illegal.

  33. No DLC for me by cbope · · Score: 1

    I have yet to actually purchase DLC directly, and I have no plans to change that in the future. The only game in my inventory that includes DLC content is Oblivion, and only because the DLC came bundled with the deluxe package of the game. I refuse to buy "fluff" add-ons (horse armor, are you fsck-ing kidding me?) and games that are shipped incomplete with DLC required to be able to finish the game are off my buy list automatically.

    I, for one, want the publishers and developers focusing on delivering quality games, at release, without show-stopping bugs. I'm getting tired of reading reviews of new games being launched without proper QA. In my opinion, if DLC is part of the release plan for a game it means the developers are going to focus on the DLC content after launch, not fixing bugs that slipped through QA. I don't have a problem with very minor bugs slipping through, because as someone who works in software development I know that commercial software will never be completely bug-free. But they better not release the game before it's "done". Far too many recent games seem to be rushed out the door to meet an artificial deadline. Please, if your game is not ready, don't ship it. Developers, don't let publishers force you to release an unfinished game.

    Sadly, I do not see this changing for the better.

  34. It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It took me a minute to figure out for what DLC stands. Obviously not a gamer.

    Just thought I'd let you know luddites like me still existed. ;-)

  35. Back in the day... by Syberz · · Score: 1

    I recall downloading official map packs for the original Unreal Tournament which gave us a new game mode and something along the lines of 10-12 maps total... for free. Epic came out with a few packs spread out over about 2 years after the game was released I think.

    Free ride's over I guess... it's too bad but if I pay 60$ for a game, I'm not spending another 20$ in DLC for things that make my game prettier. Charge me 20$ for an add on episode, then yeah, that's fine (assuming of course that the original game lasted for more than 8 hours).

    --
    ~Syberz
  36. What are you smoking? by mjwx · · Score: 1

    Don't pay for the shit DLC, and Supply and Demand economics will take care of the problem.

    Ummm...

    The publishers have a legally enforced monopoly, what the heck makes you think that the rules of supply and demand apply here. After you satisfactorily explain that one you can explain how supply and demand works where supply is for all intents and purposes infinite because the product is infinitely replicable for negligible costs.

    Australia has been trying to get game prices down to US/Euro levels for years, supply and demand hasn't done a damned thing, we are still paying US$90+ per game. Even making parallel importing legal hasn't affected it, they've just introduced region locking wherever possible.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    1. Re:What are you smoking? by Tridus · · Score: 1

      Because we control the demand. Their supply is useless without demand.

      Games are not food. You can in fact refuse to buy them. Easily. Enough people do that for any length of time and the industry will beg for mercy.

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
  37. When DLC goes wrong... by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    DLC goes wrong when it exists.

    I'll pay for an expansion pack to add content to a good game, I won't pay to unlock existing in-game content, and I won't pay to add content to a shitty game that should have had it in the first place, so don't try that either, game publishers.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  38. Some DLC is good by JonnyRocks · · Score: 1

    The article forgot to mention that some DLC (Dargon Age) is very good. I love the attention bioware gave to Dragon Age. i have enjoyed the adventures. I also like what the Sims 3 has done. I think the prices are reasonable for both as well. The games listed in the article don't surprise me. These aren't games I usually buy because of so many issues plaguing them. I guess my issue here is that the article focuses on the wrong issue. DLC is a great idea, some really bad companies don't know how to handle it. Big game companies are now like hollywood they just don't get it.

  39. She by wjousts · · Score: 1

    It's "she", Fawkes is female.

    1. Re:She by cmdr_klarg · · Score: 1

      That point is debatable at best, but it is moot, as Super Mutants lose all gender traits when they mutate. Fawkes is more properly called "it".

      --
      THE SOFTWARE, IT NO WORKY!!!
  40. Not a great article by nordee · · Score: 1

    This is a terrible article, it's poorly written, one sided, and seems to be based on the personal preferences of the writer.

    Couldn't we find a better discussion of game DLC than this?

    --
    still no sig
  41. Ratings and Discontinues. by theleica · · Score: 1

    Couldn't we just implement a cross-platform ratings system along with a 'discontinue' option? There are some bits of DLC I would really like to actually get, say, half my money back on and not have access to it anymore as it's just that crap and I never use it.

    --
    All the best dreams are unachievable.
  42. Films can be episodic too by tepples · · Score: 1

    I didn't like the idea of paying two times the cost of a normal full game to get all the parts, not to mention having to wait weeks/months in between each portion of the game.

    Let me guess: You didn't see Star Wars IV-VI, Star Wars I-III, The Lord of the Rings, or The Matrix trilogy.

    1. Re:Films can be episodic too by somersault · · Score: 1

      They're all full length films though (and relatively standalone for the ones I actually enjoyed, ie the original Star Wars and The Matrix - I found the LOTR books and movies below average for entertainment value). When I first read the PoP episodic content concept it sounded more like you getting charged half of normal ticket price for watching 1/3 of a film, and then waiting months to see the rest of it. You'd end up paying 150% the price of a full game for one full game, while losing out on a lot of the immersion.

      I don't watch TV series when they're on TV these days because I can't be bothered waiting a week before the next episode. I buy DVD box sets.

      If I hadn't already read all the Harry Potter books I probably would wait until both halves of the last movie are out before watching the first.

      If they were actually charging at a price proportional to the amount of gameplay you get, I wouldn't complain, but I'd still wait until all the parts are released - I did this with Monkey Island 5.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:Films can be episodic too by tepples · · Score: 1

      (and relatively standalone for the ones I actually enjoyed, ie the original Star Wars and The Matrix - I found the LOTR books and movies below average for entertainment value)

      Were the two parts of Kill Bill standalone enough? Or, like me, did you avoid them on Buena Vista freegan principles?

      I don't watch TV series when they're on TV

      So I guess you're not into sports either. For example, one can't buy an NFL team's regular season and playoffs on DVD and cram before the Super Bowl.

      If I hadn't already read all the Harry Potter books I probably would wait until both halves of the last movie are out before watching the first.

      And then you get into companies like Disney who stop selling copies of the old movies before the sequel hits theaters.

    3. Re:Films can be episodic too by somersault · · Score: 1

      Yep Kill Bill works fine as two separate movies too - the styles of each half seemed pretty different to me.

      Definitely not a sports fan, never have been. I occasionally watch stuff like the Olympics and other international events if Scotland are playing (hardly ever happens, we suck).

      companies like Disney who stop selling copies of the old movies before the sequel hits theaters

      Didn't know that. Seems like a silly tactic to me, considering they'd presumably make more money from selling the original around the time the sequel is in theaters, for people who've heard a movie is good and want to see the original before the sequel. I wanted to see "Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps" at the cinema recently - but when I found out it was a sequel, I decided to not watch it until I've seen the first.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    4. Re:Films can be episodic too by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      Stop spreading this lie. There is no Matrix trilogy.

  43. DLC is not a new concept by NYMeatball · · Score: 1

    DLC is software's version of "(non)value add".

    This has been in existence ever since the first car dealership thought up undercoating, ever since mcdonalds realized it could sell you a toy car or a carton of pies with your hamburger. Basically, as long as commerce has existed, there's been the concept of accessories, addons, or in this case, "downloadable content".

    DLC, much like any other addon, falls into one of two categories:

    1) Crap
    2) Not crap

    Obviously, if the DLC is crap, no one buys it, and we move on all the happier. You really don't need that trucoat, it turns out.

    It seems that most people have a problem with the "legit" DLC. Everyone would love that sweet new song pack, that awesome new armor, the goggles that yes, in fact, do something. So why are these bastard companies screwing us over? By golly, we want our new content and we want it for free! Obviously the solution is simple. Make all the crap DLC cost something, and no one will buy it. Make all the awesome, totally radical DLC free and/or baked into the core product, and everyone is happy!

    This seems to be the sentiment of every DLC complainer. The truth of the matter though is, one gamer's trash is another gamer's treasure. It's far more economical to the developers, and really, the gamers too, to sell a "watered down" core product at $40 and tack on a bunch of $5-10 packs that give you specific content. I spent $50 on rock band, that was great. I spent another $8-12 on a few more songs from bands that I really, really, really liked.

    If you took all the DLC out there for rock band (Which in this case is effing impossible, as there are TONS of song packs now), you'd be looking at a $200 product, and then EVERYONE who buys the core product is stuck with the the "Harmonica Hero Song Pack 4 Collection", which I'm sure EVERY consumer is interested in.

    Yes, some companies like to gouge stupid customers, and some customers are stupid enough to pay $20 for a different coloured cape. At the end of the day - I say let them. People went crazy when blizzard started selling $25 mounts - almost 2 entire months of game time worth of cost for what amounted to recoloured pixels of existing models. People lost their shit. Really - who cares? Is it effecting you if 10, 20, 100,000 other people want to fork over money for silly rewards? Let them have it. At the end of the day, almost all of the games we play are equally silly. If you enjoy something and want to pay for it, then do it. If you don't, don't.

  44. Consider Harry Potter I-VII by tepples · · Score: 1

    I read multi part novels. Only when I have all the books available to read.

    Some book series on this list are still growing; I guess they're off limits to you. For example, to follow your rule strictly, you'd have to have not started reading Harry Potter and the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone until Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows had been first published.

    1. Re:Consider Harry Potter I-VII by Beardydog · · Score: 1

      That sounds great! You also spare yourself the pain of incomplete series that way, and the pain of reading series that are dragged out indefinitely for profit. When my friends were raving about the Wheel of Time, it was on book nine, I think... "Fuck that," I said, "There's no good god damned reason for a series -that long- of books -that thick-. When you reach that volume, you are no longer telling a single, coherent story, and can't possibly have planned the whole mass out from the beginning."

      Much of that was undoubtedly sour grapes, because I was too lazy to read that much just to enjoy a story with my friends, but I think there's a kernel of truth in there somewhere. And then he DIED. He dragged the series out so long that he DIED. Granted, he died far too young, but when you stretch it over eleven books and twenty yeas, you're just begging to be hit by a bus, or struck by lightning. The book he had planned to be the last in the series has been cut up into three books, for a total of 22 years.

      Harry Potter could have lasted 22 years. It could have gotten progressively worse (not a shot at Wheel of Time, just a possibility of any long series), with a long tail of fans dropping off the series at different stages as they became unable to make excuses for it (I officially declare this to be a shot at The Simpsons), until the actual conclusion became pointless, anyway. J.K. Rowling could have died at any point.

      I'm glad I read Timothy Zahn's first Star Wars trilogy, but I foolishly read several books beyond. If you want to know the current state of the Star Wars universe, you'll have to have read 67 books, many of which are utter drivel. The evil empire that drove the plot is no more, your favorite characters are now dead, and their apartment's have been sold to rowdy college students, and little old ladies, who have completely redecorated the place. There's nothing left to go back to, but some tortured souls still go back, again and again.

  45. Read the reviews! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is very akin to asking, "How can we get developers to stop making bad games?" I know I tend to think of DLC as "not being a game" so if I buy it and don't like it, I'm only $10 out--but that starts to add up. So I read reviews--really, DLC should be considered buying a full-fledged game in many cases. Gamespot and IGN both have DLC reviews, and I'm sure there are hundreds of sites out there that offer a similar service.

    So read the reviews before buying DLC! I know that saved me from several bad purchases in the past... and the few $10 DLCs that I skipped can add up fast!

  46. So don't buy the DLC. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Problem solved.

  47. Gold standard for DLC by Artifex33 · · Score: 1

    Team Fortress from Valve is what I see as the gold standard for DLC. The game updates significantly and frequently through Steam, adding features and fun without an iota of effort (or money!) on the part of the player. The Orange Box was the first digital game I bought, and it's one of the few that I've played regularly for over a year.

    Valve's made me into a loyal customer with that single purchase. How could a property like Call of Duty benefit if they were to do something similar? Would it torpedo their scattergun title release business plan, or would more people (like me) actually consider buying another one if they knew the game would age like whiskey?

  48. GoTY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If a game is slated to have DLC, I usually wait for a GoTY edition to come out. If I think the DLC is worth it, I buy the GoTY edition, and if not, I buy the discounted regular version. I don't buy it online because I don't want to be stuck later on missing the DLC, as I'm sure in 5 or 10 years something will go wrong with my machine and I won't be able to have it repaired. This way, I can play it fine on an emulator or buy a replacement machine and still be able to enjoy the DLC if I found it was worth it in the first place.

  49. Dragon Age did this to me by Tomsk70 · · Score: 1

    After playing for two days, I reached a stage where the game asked me if I wanted to purchase DLC. This was puzzling as I'd paid through Steam for the Digital edition which supposedly came with the DLC already.

    After signing up to Steam and EA's support pages, I found that even though Steam entered the game code for you, the DLC code had to be entered seperately, despite not telling me this anywhere.

    I complained to Steam, they said it was nothing to do with them - so I asked for a refund, as the experience had soured my taste for the game. Steam said no, I'd already played it for two days and was therefore ineligible. I reminded them that by UK law, I can return anything defective to the seller *or* the manufacturer - it's my choice by law. Steam replied that they weren't in the UK.

    I never played the game again - in fact, I think I've paid for two games out of the dozen or so I've played since. But hey, I'm doing this because I'm a nasty pirate, not because I refuse to be ripped off again, right?

  50. Day 1 misconception by skorch · · Score: 1

    While there are many valid complaints about DLC out there, there is one major misconception that does get perpetuated rather unfairly, and that is of Day 1 DLC. The perception is that this was content that was deliberately withheld from the disk to be charged at a premium as a way to bilk consumers. While I can't speak for all companies' strategies I can say that in general this is simply untrue, and more a product of the nature of console development nowadays.

    When a game goes into Cert for first party consoles, i.e. the game is complete, nothing else is to be added to the disk so that Nintendo, Sony, and MS can test the disk for compliance to be published on their systems, you're looking at a 4 to 6 month period between the disk entering Cert, going Gold, and then going to disk pressing and distribution and then actually hitting store shelves where nothing new is or ever will be added to the disk (except for major bug fixes found in the cert process). But this is still 6 months where you have developers on staff with all the tools and expertise of development still fresh and ready to go. So unless you've already scheduled the next product cycle (which you shouldn't while the game is still in Cert in case issues arise), you've got plenty of resources you can dedicate to turning around day one patches and DLC. Cert process for DLC is usually much shorter, because it's all building off the engine that was already tested on the disk, and since there's no manufacturing or distribution lead time, you can usually have some pretty high-quality DLC available in pretty short time alongside your disk's actual launch.

    Day 1 patches also get a lot of flak, but are often a much more preferable solution (from the developer and publisher's perspective) for fixing issues that are turned up in cert that don't require you to restart the cert process and potentially delay your game's launch. It screws over the users who aren't online, but in today's console environment, that's such a non-vocal and shrinking minority of users that almost no one in the industry is any financial trouble for not going out of their way to cater to them (actually usually the opposite).

    Not that a lot of Day 1 DLC (or DLC in general) isn't still not worthwhile, but the idea that it was content the devs were sitting on and decided to exclude to screw over the customers just doesn't jive with reality. No matter how much content may be included on a disk that may or may not have been relegated to DLC, there is always a huge chunk of time between the disk being locked and the disk hitting shelves where the devs can work on new material that may be ready in time for launch.

  51. I'm reminded of Rock Band 3... by N0Man74 · · Score: 1

    'An example of decisions being made that will cause customers to get a crappy deal with DLC is with recent release of Rock Band 3.

    Now that they've added a new instrument (keyboards) and support 2 and 3 part harmony on vocals to songs, some previously released DLC songs are slowly being remade and released with the new track data. Those who buy the track for the first time will pay $1.99 (which I think is also overpriced for reasons I won't get into here).

    Now, if you have already bought the original track for $1.99 before keyboards were added, even if you just purchased it a few weeks ago before knowing it would be replaced with a better version, you are out of luck. If you want full instrumentation an additional $1.99.

    It's almost like having an early adopter tax where in the long run they get to pay twice as much for their DLC.

    Supposedly it has to do with license restrictions on the music, but at the same time it really shafts the customers who purchased many tracks already and have to repurchase the exact same songs in order to get full benefit. I think many would find it easier to swallow if even a discounted purchase of the updated track was available.

  52. "Free", "Included" DLC is anti second-sale garbage by OwP_Fabricated · · Score: 1

    TFA seems to think that most of the DLC that's included for "Free" with newer titles (i.e. everything from Bioware now, Red Dead Redemption, etc) is sort of an "Oh, we got this done after we had to go gold" afterthought deal.

    No, it's there because you have to make an account and tie your name and credit/debit card to your game to get it. If for example you buy Mass Effect 2 and register on Bioware's HORRIBLE community website (also they commit the xbox live sin of using nebulous points as currency) to get the "Cerberus Pack" which includes a character (Zaheed) and a set of armor, if you go to sell your copy or trade it in you need to give up that name and password with it otherwise the person who buys the game used will have to create their own account and pay $7-10 for the DLC you got for "free".

    DLC isn't loved by game companies just because they can nickel and dime you for shit that should've been in the original package, but it's also a way to pry money out of the pockets of people who buy games from the used market they despise so much.

  53. Fable III by LobsterMobster · · Score: 1

    In Fable III you can use dyes to color your hair and clothing how you please, except that in the release version (on the disc) there are four very obvious empty spots on your dye rack. You can now pay 80 MSpoints to purchase - surprise surprise - four more bottles of dye to fill those spots. They aren't very good colors though, just hot pink, turquoise, cream... and oh yeah, BLACK. The one color they knew everyone wanted, the one color they figured they could sell separately no matter how obvious it was that they cut it out just to nickel and dime the players. What, do they expect us to believe black dye wasn't done in time for launch, or that they came up with the idea after the game went gold? It's an insult. Worse than the "horse armor."

  54. It's all about perceived value by hellfire · · Score: 1

    The article dances around it a bit doesn't get to the hard of the matter... perceived value.

    If a game maker sells a game for $60 that feels incomplete to it's fans, and new DLC is available the moment it goes on sale and that DLC is $10... then fans are probably going to feel cheated and scream very loudly.

    On the other hand, if the game maker sells a game for $50 that's well thought out and feels complete, and new DLC is available 3 months after it goes on sale for $2 and really enhances the game but is not "required" to enjoy the game, the biggest fans might feel encouraged to buy it.

    The truth is most DLC is somewhere in between. The problem with DLC is that it's current incarnation was thought up by a business person trying to make money, not a programmer trying to make a great game. Sure, DLC is a good way to get people to continue to be interested in the game and create a revenue stream so that you can pay programmers to expand the game further. It's also a great way to take advantage of rabid fanboys and girls who download everything without thinking, only to find that most of it is crap or not worth what they spent. Sure, a fool and his money are soon parted, but if the content truly isn't worth it, the gamers will remember and not buy it the second time and your revenue stream dries up fast. Somewhere, some suit is trying to complain and justify that the stuff his company makes should be paid for at what he thinks it should cost, rather than trying to find out what it would be worth to the gamer and find a balance between how much work it takes vs how much the gamer is willing to pay for it. These bad modules are probably the former.

    There is a fine line between providing the customer value and ripping them off. Some businesses don't try hard enough to figure out where that line is before they put their products out there. Gaming companies are notorious for this.

    --

    "All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

  55. Alternative Games by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

    While I feel for those whose otherwise great games get broken by having parts of or close to the main storyline cut out and charged extra for, there is also an upside to this. The more the main publishing houses go this route, the more attractive alternative games become by comparison.

    There are several games out there that have interesting ideas in them, but can't compete with the mainstream titles' multimedia splendor. If the DLC SNAFU brings more success to these alternative games, I'll count that as a plus. Heck, we may even get more good open source games.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  56. Just wait for Gran Turismo 5 by BigSes · · Score: 1

    As badly as I want to get a hold of it, I would bet my bottom dollar they have it constructed to be a money pit of already-on-the-disc or just utter garbage DLC. I can smell the money factory firing up as we speak.

  57. Nightmare? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    If this is one a gamer's worst nightmares, they need to get out more.

  58. Video Game Project Management for Dummies? by tepples · · Score: 1

    I'll clarify my point: each AAA game that gets released tends to have been (re)written at least twice. There's no need for that to happen, other than poor management of the process.

    Can you recommend a book on how to manage a video game project?

    code is written before requirements

    Defenders of this process would argue that code is written to show which requirements are feasible and which are desirable. This is called a "tech demo".

    content is produced before it's clear whether it's needed, or suitable

    This is by no means limited to games. Production of works in any medium leaves something on the cutting room floor.

    1. Re:Video Game Project Management for Dummies? by iainl · · Score: 1

      Disney's version of Toy Story 2 was at a stage where they considered it just about ready to release, before Pixar insisted on throwing the lot in the bin and doing a decent film instead. The first Toy Story's progress to release went all over the place, too, and Cars was also completely reworked because it wasn't good enough.

      It really boils down to whether you see making videogames as a primarily technical or creative process, I suppose.

      --
      "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
  59. Moochers. by Spit · · Score: 1

    I don't know where all this DLC hubbub is coming from, but I see it posted everywhere. It is a meme propagated by self-entitled moochers without any sense of history. Nobody is forcing you to buy DLC, if you don't think a game or DLC is worth the money, don't buy it. Simple.

    I can think back through gaming history, buying Ultimate Doom; an expansion which would create furor in today's climate. I also bought Quake and QuakeII expansions. Even going back to the 80s where games like Mercenary had the Second City expansion.

    Thinking about it, I can see a parallel in the recording industry where we would buy LPs, with select songs being sold as singles often with good B-side tunes. Should the B-side tunes be given away free to those who purchased the LP?

    --
    POKE 36879,8
  60. Review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing peculiar about this, similar trends occur in many other industries. Simply read an online review of the DLC, maybe ask a few friends, end of story. Smart shopping.