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Xbox Live Enforcement — No Swastika Logo
itwbennett writes "It's one of those questions that really should never come up, but as blogger Peter Smith points out, Stephen Toulouse, the head of Xbox Live enforcement, is used to fielding all sorts of strange questions. Recently, one of those questions was apparently 'Can I use a Swastika as my logo in Call of Duty: Black Ops?' When Toulouse responded with the obvious answer ('No, of course you can't, we'll ban you.') he was met with some pushback by people he refers to as 'contrarians' and 'internet pundits' who decided to educate him on the long and storied history of the swastika as a symbol of good fortune and how just because the Nazis used it, it doesn't make the symbol itself a bad thing. Toulouse covers the topic on his blog in a post titled Context and it's an interesting read if for no other reason than to get a peek inside the day-to-day issues the Xbox Live Enforcement team deals with."
The guys tone seems to be that he knows best and that his view is commonly held, and that the people arguing are only doing so for the sole purpose of arguing.
I don't think that's true at all, and while a company certainly has no obligation to assure free speech to all customers of its service, I would expect it to at least be considered, especially when the arguments have a lot of merit.
I mean, if his point is that they won't allow things commonly found horribly offensive then he should have simply stated that, without diminishing the people making the argument. All in all, he comes across like a tool.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
"This isn't gonna stop until Pictionary bans the word 'windmill.' "
While the symbol (and the name) are older, there are many ways to draw the original symbol that barely or superficially resemble the Nazi emblem: From orientation (right or left-facing; the Nazi flag always faced right) to the rotation (the Nazi flag stands on end at a 45% angle) to the color (the Nazi flag is red-white-black).
That implies a hazy line, but it redefines the offense as one of intent, context and of what a reasonable observer would see.
If you draw something like this, you can use the "traditional symbol of luck" defense; if you draw this, then it's a fairly obvious lie.
No one is playing the "Super Hindus" when they use the swastika. It is an inflammatory icon with specific anti-Semitic meaning.
Its use ought to be banned, just as if a group called themselves the "Jew gassers" and tried to claim it was a tribute to a wacky Israeli troupe.
Should anything offensive be banned? Well, MS has decided that they will cater to the lowest common denominator, so that means nothing offensive. These rules are indicated up front, so you don't really have a case that you didn't know about the rules.
Buddhists would say that the meaning of the icon lies in the mind of the one ascribes the meaning to it. Therefore the icon has no intrinsic meaning in and of itself and thus they would have no problem finding another meaningless icon to use in its place.
are you sure about that? i am sure we have killed many hundreds of thousands of folk over the years unnecessarily. But millions? i'm not so sure. And war wise, i can't think of many major wars against black people. Normally they were against european nations in other places. Admittedly there was Sudan and currently Afghanistan. Anyway, i'm just not sure of our facts. It sounds great, fighting talk and all, but i suspect you may be wrong.
Nope. I'm a 'brown' person whose country used to be ruled by the Brits. Yes, they unjustly killed tens of thousands (e.g. the Jalianwala Bagh massacre).
However, the Nazis were far worse... 2-3 orders of magnitude worse. The Nazis killed hundreds of thousands of browns as well (e.g. Roma).
There is no comparison. Ban the Nazis!
The problem is that we're not, as a species, able to dissociate symbol from meaning. Our entire lives are spent navigating symbols and meanings and interpreting the subtle, subconscious, or merely obtuse. I've heard it described as us being "Homo Narrans" i.e. storytelling animals. The fact of the matter is simply that we tell stories - our lives and histories are processes of constant narrative using common cultural symbols as shared points of understanding. The swastika is a symbol that has become embedded with significant cultural short-hand and its impossible for people to divorce that specific alignment of lines from historical events.
Hundreds of thousands? Sure. But MILLIONS? You're gonna have to show me some math.
Not played it (yet), but considering it's a game about running around and shooting each other...
Doesn't seem out of context if one side, being the bad-guys, is wearing the attire of those bad-guys does it? Or is the enemy shown just as amorphous gray blobs?
If this particular game doesn't have Nazis in, then fair enough, please ignore THIS post. I'll post it again when there is a recognisable enemy! But when CoD had WWII as the theme, did the enemy not have any markings showing which side they were on?
Waiting for an amusing sig.
This is really nothing new, most places that have any kind of moderation will instantly assume that anything that looks even remotely like a swastica is bad or intended to cause offense.
A few years ago, I had made a map for C&C: Red Alert 2. Part of the map design, by coincidence, had an area that looked a tad like a swastica on the minimap (it was basically an "X" shape with a few lines coming off of it) in one small corner. I'd had a screenshot of it on photobucket and that was removed because it was potentially offensive.
+1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
The way people talk about the Swastika in the Nazi context you'd swear it was an actual weapon that they stabbed people to death with. FCOL! It was the idiots carrying the flags with the Swastika on it that did all the killing, not the symbol itself.
To use your logic, attributing deaths to symbols and inanimate objects, you should never ever pick up a knife again or even keep one in your house. How many millions of people have been killed by knives since they were first created?
Wellcome to the Wallet Garden, ... or maybe you was born there, so you don't know what you miss.
Freedom is something you learn.
-Woof woof woof!
I bought the game when it came out because I'm unemployed, living in my mother's basement, have nothing else to do, and haven't bought a game in a year or so (besides Civ 5 but that's different).
I love the fact that you can customize your logo. Other than unlocking better weapons, it would be difficult for me to care less about customizing the appearance of the weapons (which you can do) or your character model (which you can do to a limited extent). But somehow, designing your own little logo really appeals to me.
I'm obviously not the only one who feels that way, because there are a lot of really intricately designed logos that people have made. I am always sure to look at everyone's logo when we're sitting in the lobby between rounds to look for interesting ones. You see them each time you kill someone or they kill you, too, so you can keep track of players you're playing with by their logo. Of course, there are a lot of typical design styles that you might expect, like skulls and penises and what not. Even with those, though, it's often amazing the creativity that went into them (using the set of graphics available, it's amazing the different ways people have come up with to illustrate ejaculating penises).
However, for the first several days, there was almost always at least one person with a swastika. Not a hindu or buddhist one - a red, white, and black, rotated 45 degrees, unmistakeably Nazi one. I was in one lobby where no less than three people had them. It's kind of funny actually because, since there's no pre-set swastika symbol, they had to be just as creative when designing their swastika as other people are designing other things.
Now personally, I believe fully in the freedom of expression, and all that. I am not offended by swastikas, even Nazi ones, by themselves. It depends entirely on the context. Here, it's mostly teenage boys donning them. They're ignorant of history and what the Nazi swastika represents, and the crap that spews out of their mouths if they have a microphone only confirms their ignorance. It really does become offensive. And, I don't need my parents (or anyone else) seeing me interacting with a bunch of idiots with swastika logos - the type of person you'd avoid at all costs in any other context, but who are difficult to avoid on xbox live (or playstation online in my case).
I believe they must be doing something about it on the PS3 too, because for the past few days I can't recall seeing any swastikas, and I've been playing quite a bit. From a purely business standpoint, it definitely makes sense to ban things like swastikas. To their credit, that's probably the only thing they're going to care about. There certainly hasn't been a decline in the number of ejaculating penis logos.
Buddhists strive to make that dissociation, but that's their issue, not the one at hand.
You are absolutely right. The question becomes whether one culture's significant artifact is better or has more importance than another's. Does the cultural significance of the Nazi swastika imbue the non-Nazi swastika with the same negative connotations of the former? As the blog writer said, it depends on context.
However, the context here is the XBox servers and the game playing public who accesses these servers. MS has decided which icons are unacceptable, and they have used Western culture as the context for most of their decisions.
Right or wrong, in Western culture, the swastika has a very specific negative meaning. It is one of hatred, murder, and intimidation.
I'm all for freedom of speech and expression, but why can't people accept "No, you can't. Some people may find it deeply offensive." as an answer? I think we can all agree that it is reasonable to not want people running around on XBL with swastikas plastered everywhere.
Yes, the symbol in question has many other meanings, but in an online community where users dedicate no small percentage of their time to finding new ways to spell fa**ot and ni**er to get around content filters, you can bet your ass they probably don't care about any context the symbol had prior to WWII.
Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
What the hell? I really can't scroll down on your site without javascript enabled?
I'm sure your content was compelling though.
Can't help but wonder if they'd let one use the communist `hammer and sickle' logo in game. Commies committed more genocides than the german fascists [[citation not needed]]. They also lasted much longer.
If they'd let, it's hypocrisy -- and no excuse about different possible interpretations is available. If not, it would be a very uncommon case... you can see people walking around with such logos on T-shirts every other day. You can easily buy gadgets with the commies logo and nobody seems to mind :(
Isn't it interesting that Slashdot edits out svastik characters. There is a line of them below
None of the articles seem to mention that the swastika is banned in Germany. As a result, model aircraft manufacturers (Airfix, Revell, etc) don't include swastikas in their decal sheet so they can sell to the international market.
Except that the knife doesn't stand for a certain belief while the swastika did and is still generally associated with that belief.
You're gonna have to show me some math.
2 + 2 = 4
The British Raj famines alone killed more than the nazi holocaust (20-29 million). I'm not looking up the rest, if you're this ignorant of history, you need to do some serious reading.
This is the famous picture of Jackie Bouvier (later Jackie Kennedy/Onassis) wearing a Native American costume as a child, complete with swastika. The Swastika is a sacred symbol to many cultures.
Like, you made a whole video game to accurately recreate the violent deaths of people for sport, right?
And you have problems with people expressing their preference for a group that violently killed lots of people?
MORAL DILEMMA!
You know, if the Nazis had chilled out a bit, stopped the whole "let's conquer Europe" thing and the other bit about genocide and racism, established a modern liberal democracy, made friends with their neighbors, but kept the whole swastika business, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
Clearly Microsoft / Treyarch / Activision are free to set their own terms and conditions on the service, which might include banning logos which are obscene, offensive etc. So if you do a swastika and they say its banned then you're best to take them at their word. I don't own COD: Black Ops so I don't know how you customize your logo. But assuming you can draw pretty much anything you like, you only have to look at various ways neo nazis get around this ban to think this is all a futile effort. They substitute the swastika for something with a similar radial symmetry and colour scheme. I can imagine the hilarity that will ensue when someone uses the Isle of Man logo and gets banned for their troubles.
No, the players themselves have the power to create logos. There's a fairly extensive set of graphics (clip art essentially) which you can arrange in any way imaginable - choose the colors, size, arrangement, etc. - to create your logo. Lots of people find creative ways to make penises, and lots of people were finding creative ways to make Nazi swastikas. I made a much longer post about it here already, but you've been modded up, and you're misinformed.
...not someone's personal religious blogspot page. If you haven't been on xbox live, let me fill you in. It is not filled with nice people that have a fun game, then talk about their cultural differences in a calm manner over tea. When you turn on your headset, you hear screaming 9 year olds telling their mothers to fuck off when asked to do homework, then tell you how they are going to teabag your corpse. Then they blast gangster rap in your ears over the mic and make it so your team can't talk to each other. You hear people shouting over the microphone's at each other screaming racial slurs every 2 seconds. In my experiance with xbox live, I saw more racism and hate than anywhere else in my life. So if I saw a clan with a swastika as their logo, *yes* I would automatically assume it was the racist/nazi version. And I would also wonder why in the hell I ever went *back* to xbox live in the first place compared to my relatively tame gaming experiance on pc.
'No educated person on the planet looks at the swastika symbol (...) and says "oh, that symbol has nothing at all in any way to do with global genocide of an entire race"'.
Well, no educated person except a couple of billion buddhists and hinduists. But I suppose they're not educated, since they don't believe in our God.
When you get a city map in Japan, it's often littered with swastikas for all the buddhist temples. I'm pretty sure those have nothing at all in any way to do with global genocide of an entire race.
He could have made his point with a little more respect. I can understand you don't want swastikas on an online video game service that's used by a lot of people from western societies, but he's pushing it a little bit too far when he's talking about contrarians arguing about some innate facts.
Buddhists would say that the meaning of the icon lies in the mind of the one ascribes the meaning to it. Therefore the icon has no intrinsic meaning in and of itself and thus they would have no problem finding another meaningless icon to use in its place.
That cuts both ways - you can count on the neo-nazis just using other symbols in response to the ban too.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
I 100% agree with everything that guy posted in his blog.
Yes, the swastika symbol does not always stand for nazi Germany, but in our western culture, pretty much EVERYBODY will think of that meaning first - especially if the symbol is drawn in exactly the way used back then (same orientation, same colours). All the "but it has a different meaning in certain religions" arguments are just crap. If you'd ask those people to explain in more detail what they know about the symbol, why it is designed that way and why exactly their 20 people clan so badly wants that symbol as their logo, they would not be able to explain it (or you'd just get a copy of the wikipedia article) - because in reality they actually want the swastika symbol BECAUSE they want to offend people and all the "oh it's a good luck symbol in certain religions" arguments are just bullshit to try and get around the terms of service. Using a swastika as a clan logo in a first person shooter game because it means "luck"? Come on.
So we're back at "is it ok to intentionally do something which offends people in an online game?", and the answer to that is obvious - it depends on the terms of service of that online game, the game company CAN state that they will ban you for it (free speech does not apply there, same as it does not apply on a private message board).
"Can I do something that will offend an entire country, entire religion, entire race of people?"
Why the hell would that kind of question ever need to be asked? People that feel the need to ask such questions should be taken out and summarily shot - or maybe they should be taken to watch their family gassed - under their beloved symbol. Then perhaps they'd understand why it's such a stupid fkn question.
dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
I really wish they'd find some evidence that Hitler liked Justin Bieber. Poof, another problem becomes socially awkward to admit liking.
It's a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff. The idiot kids who do it to be edgy change their icons to something else. The idiot neo-Nazis change theirs to be another WP symbol.
All the better to see you with, my dear.
Hmm - which side were the Japanese on again? (lol @ the map btw)
dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
yup, that definitely sounds like someone from /.
war wise, i can't think of many major wars against black people
Ahem.
which is totally what she said
Didn't we soundly defeat those who used that symbol about 65 years ago? What us the problem of using it now?
Except that the knife doesn't stand for a certain belief while the swastika did and is still generally associated with that belief.
Are you referring to Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism? That seems more like "beliefs" than "belief" to me.
The swastika shape itself has been around for at least 8000 years according to that wiki entry. The swastika itself is still "generally associated" by millions or billions of people with their own religion.
Oh, and some idiot racist group used it for 20 years or so.
If some nation used the Christian cross as their symbol and committed a whole load of atrocities, do you think Christians would stop using the cross as a symbol? Somehow I doubt it. Crosses and cross like shapes make for very powerful and striking symbols. That's why Hitler used the Swastika in the first place.
which is totally what she said
In my opinion, the use of the swastika should not be forbidden, it should be made fun of.
I agree with the sentiment. Having forbidden symbols increases their power rather than decrease. Then again, I would keep hatespeach as a bannable offence. I would think that eventually (perhaps years and years) the neo-nazis couldn't use it as a symbol as it wouldn't have the same effect anymore.
It is what it is.
what about the single decal item which is the SS skull. you dont have to pull off any artistic acrobatics to make it, its just there.
I would give everything i own for a little bit more.
It's kind of funny that there's a discussion about certain symbols being evil, in a game where you're running around shooting people's heads.
The Crusades were far worse.
There is no comparison. Ban the christian cross!
In fact, let ban all cross type symbols. Most were use, in the past, by despicable peoples. And all the remaining will be use by others despicable peoples in the future. We might as well ban them all right now.
You can verify these numbers by reading R.J.Rummel's "Death by Government".
Furthermore, there is no country that benefited from Communism whatsoever: It brought massacres and untold misery to millions, it killed 1/3 of Cambodia's population and kept half of Europe in poverty for over half-of-a-century.
Turns out the communist symbol seems as much offensive to me (and probably millions of others) than the Swastika. I have no affinity whatsoever with Nazis, but I find the double-standard quite astounding.
Just because an ideology professes good overall intentions ("workers of the world unite", etc..) doesn't make it any better, not does it mean that the millions of its victims can be simply brushed away as mere mistakes. If there must be censorship , why aren't these people subject to the same censorship than the Swastika fans?
The way people talk about the Swastika in the Nazi context you'd swear it was an actual weapon that they stabbed people to death with. FCOL! It was the idiots carrying the flags with the Swastika on it that did all the killing, not the symbol itself.
To use your logic, attributing deaths to symbols and inanimate objects, you should never ever pick up a knife again or even keep one in your house. How many millions of people have been killed by knives since they were first created?
I wish I had mod points. Its pretty hypocritical for people who say "guns don't kill people do" to say "oh gosh that Buddhist has a swastika... thats terrible we all know the swastika is evil".
Hmm... it seems that the 'enlightened, educated folks' that fear the symbol have little enlightenment and less education.
The US Army's 45th Infantry Division used the 'swastika' as the Divisional emblem for a good 20+ years. It was changed in the 30's as National Socialism rose in Germany.
Also, 'NAZI' is a political party, not a Military Organization. The Wehrmacht is the German Army.
How does X-Box Live reconcile the fact that the Russian Communist Party killed many, many more of its own people than the NAZIs did, yet the hammer ad sickle are not banned?
I am not offended by the Swastika... but I am conscious of the fact that the NAZI party did some horrible things. There is a difference.
Please enlighten and list which of the Crusades were held under the banner of the Union Flag.
Never attribute to malice what you could instead attribute to stupidity.
Captcha: hubris. Appropriate.
Does a common Western icon exist which has large negative connotations in say Asian or African Culture?
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
I could have an avatar named 'WaffenPanzer' with SS lightning bolts as a picture and that's totally cool.
However, I couldn't have an avatar named 'AncientUnity' with a swasika?
How much fucking sense does that make?
Snooki?
Actually, I'd be interested to know that too. I don't know.
Great! So XBox Live is now a moderated environment and thus take responsibility for anything Nazi-like that slips through their filters, eh? Because obviously they deem things not to be freely "user-created" but that they are the guardians of taste in their own area. So when I *do* find something offensive (which is becoming more a problem with the person being offended than the other being offensive in modern times), I can blame them for letting it slip through.
How does this differ from the ISP's that don't want to take responsibility for moderating user content? (I know there are differences, but there are also critical parallels).
And what if I create a fuss that Nazi-imagery is banned but not {some other random group that caused atrocities}? So Xbox Live have to decide on a moral scale if something is better or worse than the Nazi-imagery and thus issue some kind of official statement to that effect? Or ban anything even slightly controversial (which could be construed to be almost anything with some people)?
It seems an odd thing to create a fuss about and that's why most places that do this sort of thing do it silently (or hide behind a "we considered *your particular* image inappropriate"). I wonder how many pseudo-swastika's (or "worse") there are running around on Xbox Live at this very moment?
Things that are illegal to depict in the first place, fair enough - you don't want child porn images running around on Xbox Live avatars - and in some countries depiction of Nazi-imagery is illegal (France and probably Germany too? I know they banned all Nazi-related eBay auctions, even for memorabilia). But is it actually wrong for someone to depict what is effectively a logo on their avatar? I'm sure that "Jeff's Pork Emporium" has a logo that wouldn't fly in certain strictly-against-pork countries, but does that mean Xbox Live would ban any pig-related imagery across the world on their system?
Nobody wants another Nazi, not even one. However, fear of such things creates silly situations. There are wargames, and have been for 20+ years, where you can actually play the German army and see the swastika and have it emblazoned on your (virtual) arm. Weren't they in the original Wolfenstein, for instance? It's not unreasonable to suggest that someone who plays such a game and likes playing as the German side might want to display a logo on their arm (especially if they see it only as a symbol, e.g. because of their age).
I think they would have been better off saying "We don't want to promote extremism, and we don't want to spend our lives moderating images as to whether they fit the category, so we're just going to have a blanket ban on swastikas." I'm sure that's what they mean but that's not what the original post portrays. It seems more like a "Some people misuse stuff and you can't be trusted not to misuse it so you can't have anything even close to it" - which kinda sounds like the corporate arguments for DRM more than anything else.
In WW2 the estimated number of dead was in the region of 50 to 70 million, which compares to about 1.5million during the crusades (from the estimates I've seen, summed over a number of centuries). How do you decide that the crusades were worse exactly?
. . . the title Godwins you!
Despite any political or historical implications, I would assume that most folks would realize that using a Swastika would be in bad taste.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Half the world is starving - capitalism exports it's misery and pollution to poor countries and robs those countries of there resources. How many people have died of famine - and how often have the people in those countries been living under capitalist goverments? Add those numbers up and then tell me communism is worse. Don't get me wrong, I don't like any dictatorships, but your post smacks of McCarthyism.
Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
The Crusades were far worse.
There is no comparison. Ban the christian cross!
In fact, let ban all cross type symbols. Most were use, in the past, by despicable peoples. And all the remaining will be use by others despicable peoples in the future. We might as well ban them all right now.
That's actually an excellent example of what happens when enough time passes. Eventually also the swastika will no longer be any more objectionable (possibly less), than crusaders' or conquistadors' symbols are today.
Heritage not Hate!
Oh wait, wrong hatespeech. My bad.
So let me get this strait. Someone playing CoD wants to use the Swastika as logo in a WAR GAME. And he wants to be all preachy about it's different meanings when they say no?
The Swastika had all sorts of positive connotations UNTIL some idiot decided to fly it over their artillery. And you are different how, Mr. "I want to use a positive religious symbol in a war game?" Get with it buddy. Maybe you aren't committing genocide but you're still perverting the symbol.
If they allow swastikas, Microsoft are Nazis.
The folks at MS probably think that would make them look bad, damage the brand, hurt sales, etc.
So they don't allow swastikas.
What is this so hard for you to understand?
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
The British Raj famines alone killed more than the nazi holocaust (20-29 million). I'm not looking up the rest, if you're this ignorant of history, you need to do some serious reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India
You are correct in your numbers but I personally don't think those two things are directly comprable.
It is relatively common in India to claim that the famines were the goal of the British all along, though history reveals that this is not true. The British policies (between trade and taxation mostly) made *worse* issues that were already underlying (existing famines, uneven rainfall, rice fungus etc.) in much of the country. The famines were much worse under the British than India had ever had before, and this is because the British trade policies caused entirely new problems that India didn't have before in combination with the already existing issues of variable rainfall and food supplies. The British government did actually attempt to alleviate the issues of famine in numerous ways over the years while still maintaining profitability - and that was really the problem.
I'm not defending what the British did. It was absolutely and completely wrong. But I think if you read the history of the events in depth you will realise that it is no way comparable to the Nazi holocaust. The Nazi's had a 100% intention of massacring those people. In the famines, people were killed as a combination of ignorance, greed and just-not-caring-enough. To me, that is entirely different to loading people into gas chambers and shooting them in their beds. When judging the ethics of others, I tend to think the intention behind the action is an important issue. The famines showed money was more important to the British Government than human life. The end goal for the British was money - the end goal for the Nazi's was the extermination of entire races. I think the distinction is pretty important here.
Of course the British did massacre a lot of Indian people in a much more direct fashion at numerous points in history. Again this was absolutely wrong and comprable to the Holocaust - but I am only comparing the famines here as the parent brought it up with a seemingly loaded statement.
Personally I'm rather glad we lost/ditched the vast majority of the British empire. While all nations in history have been forged in the fires of blood and violence, as a Brit, I am ashamed of some of the horrors the British managed to inflict upon the world while expanding its once massive influence. What's more interesting is that hardly anybody here in the UK even seems to be aware of it. Any thoughts from abroad?
I'd be comfortable with that. Ban all religious symbols on the grounds that they are provocative and inflammatory. It's a game FFS, not a springboard for someone's lunatic religious or ideological beliefs.
I doubt people in a game where your in a war type setting want to use the swastika for a victory sign. They know that from the history with the Nazi's. If they allow that then they might as well make a flight simulator where you can have a picture of 2 burning buildings on the side....
This thread is proof that racism and anti-intellectualism is alive and kicking.
You have points here but I think that in this case, it would be considered the best "reasonable response." It's not even like they sought this person out, he came to them and asked about it. They said no.
They can't protect everybody, but when you are going to choose possibly the biggest symbol with the worst common connotation, they made the right move. I mean when you see it, are you going to see a Hindu symbol? No. Of course not. To put it in perspective, I think in some instances even the devil is less scorned than this symbol. He is, after all, used by a lot more than just the religious crowd. But you're right, I mean really, they should be equal across the board...
You know, until recently I was an ardent free speecher.
This sort of censorship would set me off on 'slippery slope' discussion and 'intellectual consistency' and all sorts of bs.
But you know what? There are some reasonable limits on free speech; if you don't like my particular list of what I don't like, then don't play my game or elect me emperor.
-Styopa
I don't like when people use the swastika because it symbolizes the group whose goal it was to wipe the Jews from the planet. And that is just pure evil.. I, like many other Americans, identify the symbol of the Cross with the Bible and more specifically with Jesus. Although it represents something both horrible (the process) and wonderful (salvation), many Americans see it in a favorable light. *However* - I must say - there are many in the middle east who would have the symbol banned. Why? I think it is at least partly because the symbol of the cross was brought against them in war during the crusades. This obviously had nothing to do with God (this was an evil act as well) but I think it has left a similar feeling for the cross that we have of the swastika.
Yes, swastikas have a long history of meaning good luck and prosperity all across the world. Yes, I would have preferred the nazis to use the goatse man instead of the swastika, but unless you are in the most remote regions of the Andes, a swastika means nazis.
The twin towers had a different meaning before 9/11, Tiananmen Square used to have a different meaning and so did a lot of other symbols/places/buildings.
And about the trolls who argue otherwise: They don't want to use the swastika cause they are deeply rooted in one of various old cultures or religions. It's because they want to shock people or they actually condone the actions of the nazis.
Long story short: Fuck them. Optionally with a large swastika. Those are cool, after all.
Indeed, my twitter stream was filled with people stating that Xbox LIVE should equally ban the star of David, the Christian cross, and yes I am not kidding, the infinity symbol because under various niche interpretations of those symbols, they are as evil as the swastika symbol and I should apply ethical relativism to all symbols on Xbox LIVE to respect all viewpoints because of the United States First Amendment.
Since when is the KKK's use of the Christian cross a "niche interpretation"?
Naturally, Slashdot being what is it, most people here will argue that this guy is wrong. They'll also prove his point.
Killing people is okay with them. It's the politics that they seek to avoid tangling with. Obscenity is not in the killing, it's in the ideals you represent. That alone should be pretty telling. We have a completely screwed up sense of decency and morality.
(I still like playing first person shooter games though... not against that in the least! I'm just saying that for people who are supposed to be supporting decency and morality, they seem to be focused on the wrong things most of the time... they care more about how people get pleasure than anything else!)
Great show of ignorance. Do you know how many millions died in the famines? And because of partition? That's a much bigger number than the people died in the holocaust.
I don't think that was his point exactly. Even the current English flag wasn't used around at the time of the crusades, but as a nation we've still done a lot of evil stuff. The point is that it's not the symbol that's important, it's the actions of the people behind the symbol.
Many computers have come out over the years using the Commodore and Amiga brands, but I haven't bought any since the A1200, because I know it's just a bunch of guys that have bought rights to the symbol. They don't have any of the ingenuity or flair as the original Commodore guys. If it doesn't mean anything for good symbols, why should it mean anything for the bad?
which is totally what she said
The Xbox moderator obviously has never been to Asia nor has he ever shown any interest in Buddhist culture. Which is okay in itself (even if a little closed minded) but he really should refrain from making statements like that. The swastika is used all over Japan for instance where it denotes a temple. It's been used for thousands of years, and it is not associated with the Nazis when shown to someone from there. He holds a typical imperialist view and projects that onto his Xbox community. Which is to be expected, given that it mostly targets Westerners anyway. So all bad? No, but very close-minded. From a moderator you would expect a more mature/moderate approach.
Call of Duty: Black Ops is a game where you simulate shooting people. If you don't like people in it using Swastika symbols (BTW, there is a difference between a "symbol" and a "logo", but I digress), just go shoot them (in the game, I stress) and keep it up until they don't want to use it any more.
Worked for Winston Churchill, anyhow.
MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
I was playing one of these guys the other day and grabbed a shot with my BlackBerry to send to a friend. I put it on my Facebook so I could share it with you all. It's obviously a Nazi version...
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1790730&l=58123b17f4&id=1049148624
I find it amusing that Microsoft has no problems making profit off of nazi symbolism as it applies in a game environment, i mean hell look at Zombies its all about killing undead germans and its chalk full of crap that alludes to Nazi germany.. but a kid wants to rock a Shwastika and the whole world rises up against him. Give me a fuckin break COD:BO is rife with people creating every animal under the sun fucking every other animal with a pickle dick, people creating all sorts of satanic and anti-religious symbolism... wtf did they expect really. Dont get mad at the kid creating the Shwastika get mad at the producers of the game who gave them the ability. Or i dunno, stop being a over sensitive twat if i was to report everything that offended me the list would be really short. My girlfriend on the otherhand is easily offended but even she knows that when she signs onto live she knows the environment she is going into and shes not about to crusade to get someones gamer tag banned.
When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
The problem is that the meaning of symbols change, sometimes radically and over short periods of time. Back in the 70's and 80's I remember when the Confederate battle flag (actually a modification of it) was considered a symbol of rebellion. Rock stars like Billy Idol and Richy Sambora even had guitars painted like rebel flags, and lots of rock bands used them in their stage shows. But in the 90's the flag became symbol non grata as groups like the NAACP started protesting it as a symbol of the pro-slavery Confederacy.
So symbols aren't like "rape is bad." One day a symbol can mean one thing, the next day something completely different. Two people can see the same symbol and come away with two radically different impressions. Symbols are all about what *WE* put into them.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
We'll have to wait until the children of the WWII generation die off before this symbol can be used for any "modern" use.
Until then it can only be used for things that are specifically related to its pre-1933 uses such or in a Nazi-era use that specifically condemns Nazism, such as most WWII movies that weren't made by the Axis powers.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
If the game takes place during WWII, and the setting involves combat in Europe, then the use of the swastika would be correct. You simply can't take it out of the setting.
It is only impossible if you believe it to be impossible. We all have the freedom to create/destroy/change ANY association we make. What is impossible is for the brain to think itself into something that it can't also think itself out of.
BadAnalogyGuy is accurate in what he says. When we forget that what is in our head is only an internal representation of external things (a PARTIAL representation) and that it is only one of many possible representations then we lose the ability to relate to other representations.
Put another way, as other posters have mentioned, why should what one culture did for a couple of decades with this symbol override what another culture did with it for a much longer time? You do NOT have to think of Nazis when you view the symbol. You MAY...but you don't HAVE to. You are making a choice regardless of how aware you are of that choice.
Aren't swastikas already in a lot of games on X-Box Live? Do Nazi characters in WW2 themed games have smiley faces on their arm band. I seem to recall wolfenstein 3d (this is seriously the most modern FPS games I have played) being loaded to the hilt with swastikas.
Well, I suppose from the point of view of Buddhist psychology you're right as far as you go, but you're missing quite a bit. "Right Speech" is the third item of the "Eightfold Path", right after "Right Intention" and before even "Right Action".
The Buddha explained "Right Speech" as consisting of the following elements:
1. abstention from false or deceitful speech.
2. abstention from slanderous or malicious speech.
3. abstention from words that hurt or offend others.
4. abstention from purposeless chatter.
Note how little the state of mind or semiotic opinions of the speaker come into this. The Buddhist must consider the rightness of his speech by its effects on others. Speech that coerces (through deceit), belittles (through slander), wounds (through insensitivity or hostility), or even *distracts* other people is wrong in Buddhist ethics. Notably, wrong speech is wrong not just because it harms others; it also thwarts the speaker's attempts to liberate himself from falsehood, malice and trivial obsessions. It makes sense that it comes on the list between "Right Intent" and "Right Action". Wrong speech undoes the ethical perspective gained from "Right View" and "Right Intent" before it can even be translated into action.
So, your opinion about what a symbol *could* mean or *ought to* mean is ethically irrelevant when you know very well it will (a) offend some people and (b) waste the time of others.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
"The map is not the territory" - Alfred Korzybski
Kinda like how the combination of characters in "9/11" suddenly has meaning attributed it. Our limited range of symbol usage will always belie the actual meanings and situations. As usual, Wikipedia is informative as a quick overview (link below).
Wikipedia (English): Swastika
As for the context of Korzybski's quote, see here: Wikipedia (English): General semantics
I wonder what a Jainist would say about this? Their religious symbol was the swastika long before Hitler co-opted it for his ill-adivised secular Teutonic religion.
There can be no ultimate sin but the belief that it exists. Nathaniel Hawthorne was right.
--
Toro
Having deaths, events, emotions and other things attributed to them is actually exactly what symbols are for. It's kind of the definition.
There are a lot of excellent points and counterpoints about the use of a swastika. The one thing that immediately jumps out at me is: this game is about war. In war, people equate Nazi and swastika. The use of swastika to show temples on maps makes sense in that context and I don't think anyone would mistake the use in that case.
If you're adamant about reclaiming the swastika and you haven't already found a suitable outlet: http://reclaimtheswastika.com/
Activision made Call of Duty. Microsoft is banning people from Xbox Live. Those are two different parties, and their actions don't (necessarily) have anything to do with each other.
Hard concept, I know, but please try to follow along.
Comment of the year
Bummer about XBL enforcement. I don't like to play with random other players even in XBL's garden because the average random xboxer is irritating, even with the official attempts to keep people from being offensive. I mostly just use XBL to hook up with friends that are remote from me. We play a custom Halo game we developed called "DICK CHENEY", where all weapons are shotgun and your radar is turned off (and friendly fire is on, in team variants). XBL changes the name of the game to "BLAM!", we figure that it doesn't like the word "DICK".
Oh well. We all know what the game is, so it's not that big a deal. I think it's a funny joke, and it's a good game variant on top of that, so I'm gonna use this opportunity to tell you all about it.
-- "Oh. This guy again."
Sure, while most of the western world is (at a minimum) tolerant of the symbol of Christianity, the cross, it is something that is offensive to much of the Muslim world, because of its connection to the Crusades (and, for other dissenters within and around the church, the Inquisition). Are they banned because of these connotations?
The swastika, like the cross, is a symbol, and symbols derive their meaning from the culture. Prior to the rise of Nazism and WWII, the swastika was a symbol that appeared in many cultures (Chinese, Anglo-Saxon, Germanic, Greek, native American) with connotations far different from those now associated with it. It became a German nationalist symbol in the early 20th Century, but was still present in symbology around the globe (and much architecture pre-dating WWII). According the the 45th Infantry Division Museum, that storied US Military unit (http://www.45thdivisionmuseum.com/History/SwastikaToThunderbird.html) wore the swastika as their unit insignia. It was chosen because it was a native American symbol for "good luck".
Clearly, the meanings associated with such symbols change over time.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
If some nation used the Christian cross as their symbol and committed a whole load of atrocities, do you think Christians would stop using the cross as a symbol? Somehow I doubt it.
If you look at Spain and the inquisition........ Yes the Cross was used by a country and a huge number of atrocities was committed, under that symbol AND belief (despite what Christianity really stands for). In the case of the Nazis, they used the symbol, but dissasociated themselves from the belief.
Have a nice day!
Apparently this guy doesn't watch Outsourced. In "Home for the Diwalidays", Rajiv directs a group of employees to hang a swastika up high, as he raises his hand, arm fully extended at 45 degrees, and shouts "Higher! Higher!" Of course Todd, the American boss, is immediately scared and says it's offensive and orders it to be taken down. Everyone is shocked, and Rajiv compliments Todd on his Americanizing, and renames an employee with an American name.
Is it really any wonder why i am an anti-person? Seriously you have to have a mental flak jacket to live in todays world. Nowadays there is not many things that DONT offend people. You cant censor xbox live you can try reaaaaaaalllllly hard but guess what as long as their is a medium of communication there will be ways to exploit it and insult people through it. Either verbally or symbolically or other. The fact that this is a issue is ridiculous its a part of history, albeit a dark part of history but a part of it regardless. Where does the line get drawn? Do we ban crosses because Christianity and the drones it produces offends me, do we ban digits so people cant put 666 in their gamer tag or how about Slayer because they are a iconic symbol of modern satanism.. Or maybe we ban tags referring to Justin Beiber because I hate his brand of music and find him to be a teenage jackoff... honestly where does the madness end?
When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
true, but irrelevant. A real buddhist wouldn't be playing video games about war.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This was modded up funny, but, you know, that's kind of the heart of the matter.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
No moral dilemma at all.
There is a big difference between fantasy and reality. Playing the game is fantasy. The reality is that tens of millions died in the war the Nazis started, under that symbol.
Taking on their identity in an online game isn't fantasy, it's a very real slap in the face to everybody who fought, suffered, and died under them.
Robert B. Marks
Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
This is the same moral dilemma I come across when I want to type the word "shit" in chat for just about any modern FPS. I can't say "shit", but I can blow someone's brains out and hump their corpse... sounds right to me!
No one cares what your captcha was
Houston TX, USA
What if the swastika was in a white circle surrounded by red? I've seen this on Black Ops. That and this other guy had his set as an erect penis and balls spewing something. But hey... maybe the guy was a worshiper of the penis..
<URL:http://www.cracked.com/article_16103_5-inspiring-religions-that-worship-penises.html/>
I have the word Black in my Xbox gamertag. The amount of times I've heard the N bomb dropped on me is insane. People don't have a problem being blatantly racist online and there should be some action to be taken but really, there is nothing you can do. Try calling Microsoft, good luck! Using the built in complaint system uuggg! Complain, file offense, select user used offensive language... Nothing happens. After what 100 of these you get kicked or do you even? Even heard guy jerkin the meat on live in MW1&2 in the lobby on a public game. Sick!
If he had made the distinction between Western and Eastern, it might be less offensive. (then again, it might be more, as MS *claims* to be international and unbiased)
Instead the distinction was "common knowledge" vs "niche Internet knowledge". Like somehow a religion practiced by millions of people is a "niche." That the alternative use of the symbol is "obscure" rather than simply a cultural difference.
That is a crock of shit. Just because one ignorant white guy doesn't know about it doesn't mean it's obscure.
As an American, I was pretty alarmed the first time I vacationed in Vietnam and found so many swastika symbols everywhere. They were on the ceilings of temples, in the courtyards, and on people's grave stones. I took some photos, wondering what the symbolism was, having no idea that it was an ancient symbol.
I posted the photos to flickr and they were invited to a flickr pool that is working towards showing the non-nazi uses of the symbol and how it has a bigger place in the timeline of history than just the German empire of the 40's.
If anybody wants to see how it is used in other places, here is the flickr pool: http://www.flickr.com/groups/1207899@N24/
Note: Like any brand, the Nazi's had their own logo. Not all swastikas are black white and red and rotated 45. The OP question was probably related specifically to the Nazi swastika.
I'm sure you couldn't do this on Xbox Live, but in some HL2 mods like DoD:S some snipers would use high quality porn as their tag. I saw so many head-shots on people who paused to look.
Welcome to the modern economy, where "Brands" are traded between companies like baseball cards.
Disgusting, isn't it.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
It is a traditional symbol for the Buddist, albeit at different orientation. Here is a picture of the huge status in HK: http://www.teachenglishinasia.net/files/images/giant-buddha-hongkong.preview.JPG
The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't
How does X-Box Live reconcile the fact that the Russian Communist Party killed many, many more of its own people than the NAZIs did, yet the hammer ad sickle are not banned?
Hammer and sickle is not a symbol specifically of the Russian (did you mean to say "Soviet"?) communist party. It's a general symbol of communism. Some communists killed a lot of people, others did not. In general, the balance tends to be on the "killing" side - but the point is still that it's not something inherent to the ideology. Much like with religions, it's a matter of interpretation, and the spectrum is very broad - compare Rosa Luxemburg to Pol Pot.
There's no such flexibilities with Nazism - it has racial discrimination and genocide as part of the very basics of the ideology.
The fact that the 45th changed their symbol due to its association with National Socialism is proof that Toulouse's argument is correct. So why do you try to argue the reverse?
Mart
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
The swastika is not only used, it's pink, in the Third Reich Decadent Coffee Shop segment of "Beautiful Dreamer." I have no idea what the intention was, because the anime was not pitched for non-Japanese when it first came out.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
an interesting read if for no other reason than to get a peek inside the day-to-day issues the Xbox Live Enforcement team deals with."
Definitely a new meaning to the word "interesting".
Does anyone even know anybody with an Xbox (Live, Enforcement, or whatever version)? I don't (as far as I know).
Actually, the article may well be interesting, but more likely as a view into the depths of political correctness than because of who the author is. Would he stay out of jail in Germany, for example?
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"