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Operation Payback and Hactivism 101

Orome1 writes "While individual acts of hacktivism are inconvenient, something else happens when hacktivists group together — they commonly perform a DDoS attack. Techniques have advanced to automate the process, making the attacks more powerful and thus more able to bypass security controls — the effect, however, remains the same. Let us take a look at the recent Operation Payback which has gained notoriety in the past few months."

423 comments

  1. This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    It's not activism. It's a bunch of spoiled brats acting like thugs.

    1. Re:This isn't activism by Pojut · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      I don't know about that...Their intentions are sound (preserve freedom of speech), even if their methods are crude. Then again, if no one hates you, you're doing it wrong...so...yeah.

    2. Re:This isn't activism by Score+Whore · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Is it freedom of speech if you don't let the other guy talk?

    3. Re:This isn't activism by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I bet that's the same thing the people in power said back in the '60s...

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    4. Re:This isn't activism by Pojut · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In what way has Anonymous prevented their targets from talking? It's not like the only way Paypal or Mastercard have to communicate is through their website.

    5. Re:This isn't activism by ducomputergeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is this "hacktivism" is doing far more damage than good because it easily allows the politicians to say "We need an internet kill switch". The overwhelming majority of people don't give a damn about wikileaks one way or the other. It's a side show on the 24 hours infotainment channels, that's all. The main reason being that what Wikileaks is doing has little to no effect on people's daily lives. Especially when most are more concerned with the job/family/economy. Instead they see these "attacks" as nothing more than a group of vandals. Nothing more and when authorities want tougher laws to deal with these "vandals", the public shrugs and says...."alright".

      And attacking the public facing websites...okay that may work with Amazon or Paypal. But to Mastercard or Visa? So long as I can still use my Visa Debit card or Mastercard at the gas pump or grocery store, it's not like I notice.

      That being said, if they did target the processing systems of mastercard/visa, I'm pretty sure that would be the golden goose the politicians have been waiting for to really clamp down on control of the internet because then you are messing with people pocket books.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    6. Re:This isn't activism by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Dude, It's 4chan. Have you ever been on /b/?

      Here is what happens: Anon comes in with a novelty idea, /b/tards join in "just for the lulz". Then, new Anon (oldfag Anon is a cold, merciless beast. newfag Anon is the conscious, moral, cause-oriented joke of the internet) puts a tag on it and says they are doing it for X. I mean, some said they did the Habbo raids to fight racism. They also said they did project chanology to protect the victims of Scientology. Bullshit, they did it for the lulz.

      Of course, DDoSing, Raiding, IRL stalking, etc, are fucking funny, and if it happens to overlay with a good cause, even better. Let them have fun, and bring them down while they are at it.

      But in this case, it's pretty obvious that Anon had nothing to do with Amazon Europe going down. Anon is nothing but a bunch of script kiddies, and they don't have the sophistication nor the combined bandwidth to bring down Amazon with a ddos attack.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    7. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Don't upload any more video".

    8. Re:This isn't activism by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that they lack the ability to seriously interrupt the business of companies like Mastercard, Amazon or Paypal, that if they did it would be counter-productive due to inciting a response from the Government and that all they do, is generate publicity by attacking the public faces of the companies. Given the first two of your propositions, doesn't the third one actually make a great deal of sense?

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    9. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh please.

      100 people can sit in at a lunch counter, shutting down service, and it's considered activism and protest.
      100,000 organized people could easily shut down 1,000 restaurants, or bank branches, or other retail storefronts by the same behavior. Again, activism and protest.
      100-500,000 people can jam up the phone banks to Congressional offices and we call it a "Virtual March on Washington." And nobody suggests it doesn't qualify as activism and protest.

      All of these count as activism. Yet when an unknown number of people voluntarily download an item to their computer to participate in a "virtual march" on the website of a bank, or the RIAA, or Paypal, or Scientology, somehow it's not activism?

      The major difference is whether the participants are willing or unwilling. In the case of most botnet-based DDoS attacks, the participants are unwilling; their machines have been hijacked and often they don't even know they are participants. In the case of LOIC, they are all willing. They purposely downloaded and installed the software. They can leave it running or only turn it on at specific times. They can easily uninstall it if they believe it is being used in a way they don't support.

      What is going on is not a "cyber attack." It is a virtual protest march.

    10. Re:This isn't activism by orphiuchus · · Score: 1

      Is it freedom of speech if you don't let the other guy talk?

      This. 1000 times this.

    11. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pfffft! What does Freedom of Speech have to do with whether a corporation chooses to host someone? Freedom of Speech applies to government interactions with the public, not business interactions with the public.

    12. Re:This isn't activism by Pojut · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How do you figure? It what way were Paypal or Mastercard prevented from saying what they had to say?

      Are you implying that they only communicate through their websites?

    13. Re:This isn't activism by Urza9814 · · Score: 2

      They never targeted the public facing website for Paypal. It was the ssh port and the api site that they went after. They weren't targeting your ability to visit Paypal.com, they were directly targeting the ability to make a payment.

    14. Re:This isn't activism by Pojut · · Score: 5, Funny

      You forget, this is the United Corporations of America! We'll tie you down with a Bass Pro Fishing Shop-branded rope and give you 30 lashes with a Wal-Mart branded whip. After it's all done, we'll just put some Neosporin on there, prop you up on an Ikea couch, and let you indulge in that wonderful cultural pasttime known as "watching television", where you will be informed of other great products and services!

    15. Re:This isn't activism by JxcelDolghmQ · · Score: 1

      No. It's not. It's a bunch of people that's speaking out the only way they can be heard. They've voted with their dollar, they've probably even voted with their VOTE, and yet things haven't changed, so it comes down to this.

    16. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is relevant to my interests.

    17. Re:This isn't activism by Score+Whore · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah. Like they could totally go into the closet and whisper their opinions to the cockroaches. No need to be able to talk to the people who want to listen to them.

      Get some maturity why don't you?

      Freedom of speech involves freedom from retaliation. If you choose not to do business with them, that's great. But if you prevent others from doing business with them then you've crossed the line.

    18. Re:This isn't activism by mlts · · Score: 2

      If they "just" put in a kill switch, we would get off lucky. An attack that knocks a major credit card processing company off the Internet (and thus keeps people from being able to do transactions) would get Congress to be cranking out bills in record time. Think USAPATRIOT act, where Congresspeople had to sign the law or be considered weak on terrorism.

      Instead, what we would see if "anti-cyberterrorism" treaties being passed with the same wording as ACTA, but because it is for "national security", it would get people signing without a second thought.

      End result: Bye-bye Internet, hello Compuserve v2.0. We have a deal after 9PM -- only $5.00/hour while viewing our premiere Web pages ($9.99 an hour if viewing other content) , receiving E-mails is only 99 cents per message, and sending is only $1.99 per message. Don't forget to visit the new CB channel while you are at it.

    19. Re:This isn't activism by squiggleslash · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They weren't preventing anyone from talking, they were however doing what they could to disrupt business.

      You know, under normal circumstances I'd be very against what those acting under the "Anonymous" label have done, just as many on Slashdot are right now. But these are not normal circumstances. We have a government - correction, we have an establishment, because this is an unholy alliance of government, big business, and big media, all of whom are covering up and even assisting with each other's crimes, that's gone rogue. And not just mildly rogue, it's an establishment that's fraudulently launched wars, kidnapped, tortured, raped, and destroyed. There are literally tens of millions of direct victims of this government, and hundreds of thousands of people victimized to the point of being tortured, raped, kidnapped, or killed.

      Two years ago this country reacted to what little was getting out by electing someone who had claimed to be against this (and made it a big part of what he supposedly stood for) since he first hit the national spotlight in 2004. And his actions on taking office? To continue virtually every aspect of what made the previous administration so evil, in some cases going further.

      Meanwhile, when there's even a hint that some of the truth will come out, the establishment has lead Denial of Service attacks of their own, with the major credit card companies abusing their monopoly to make it harder for such acts to be funded, and Amazon.com going as far not merely to disconnect Wikileaks, but to spread smears against them, smears they're continuing to spread today.

      So I'm ambivalent about the hacker attacks. Frankly, I think most of the "victims" deserve it - in fact, they deserve much worse. In a decent world, we'd see:

      1. Amazon.com facing lawsuits for breach of contract, and facing serious libel lawsuits for the disgusting smears they're peddling and continuing to peddle
      2. Visa and Mastercard facing monopolist charges, with the real possibility of facing either nationalization or a major break-up
      3. Various directors, found to have knowingly participated in conspiring to these denial of service attacks against Wikileaks, finding themselves personally liable, fined, and barred
      4. Given what they're trying to cover up, I wouldn't even feel criminal charges against these thugs occur. If I tried to cover up crimes even a fraction as bad as those they're trying to cover up, I'd be facing jail time.

      Be very clear about this: these organizations are doing what they're doing for no other purpose than to assist a rogue establishment in preventing the people from knowing the about the crimes it has committed. They're helping in a campaign to prevent people from knowing that the government, and the media, lied about the wars they started. They're helping in a campaign to prevent people from knowing that, for example, private contractors can rape and kill with impunity, that the government will continue to give them money after they've done so, and that the media will, just by being asked, not report upon it, or if it does, bury it where it will not be seen.

      This is what is being hidden. This is what people like Jeff Bezos are more than willing to be a part of.

      And I'm supposed to be upset about a bunch of frustrated "hackers" trying to bring down their web servers? Why? They're not engaging in violence, they're not preventing anyone from speaking, and the "right" options - the ones everyone are supposed to use before breaking the law - have been denied in the worst way possible. Democracy was tried. The law isn't even available.

      I'm not going to encourage anyone to assist with the DDoS attacks, and not going to engage in them myself. But I simply cannot condemn them. And frankly, if Jeff Bezos or the directors of the major credit cards were in front of me right now, I'd spit on them.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    20. Re:This isn't activism by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Guess what, the Taliban calls you a "spoiled brat acting like thugs".
      Iran calls you that.
      North Korea calls the western world that.

      It makes it a lot easier to hate the other side if you give them a derogatory name and belittle them.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    21. Re:This isn't activism by DogDude · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Freedom of speech involves freedom from retaliation. If you choose not to do business with them, that's great. But if you prevent others from doing business with them then you've crossed the line." Assuming that we're starting with a level playing field. Mastercard, Visa, Paypal, and Amazon are all able to buy Congressmen. Regular people can't. Our government is so corrupt at this point, there's really no recourse for regular people who have to go up against these corporations with more rights and privileges than actual people.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    22. Re:This isn't activism by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      PayPal, Visa, Amazon, and MasterCard are all saying that they do not want to do business with Wikileaks.
      Anonymous is pretty much running nothing short of a protection scam on them.
      "Yea you better do as I say or else..."
      Some people say the government is doing the same thing and they very well may be.
      Isn't trying to force an action by extortion wrong?
      I got no problem if one wants to protest by not buying from Amazon, PayPal, Visa, or MasterCard but DOS attack on them is an attack.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    23. Re:This isn't activism by Duradin · · Score: 1

      So change freedom of speech to freedom of association.

      The Anonymous thugs are out to stifle freedom of association. Amazon should be free to associate or disassociate as they please.

      If you can't associate freely you can't speak freely because who you are speaking with (or not with) will draw retribution.

    24. Re:This isn't activism by DogDude · · Score: 2

      "The problem is this "hacktivism" is doing far more damage than good because it easily allows the politicians to say "We need an internet kill switch"."

      If you think that the politicians need a reason to do this, then you're living on another planet. The politicians will do whatever the Big Corporations tell them to do. To say that the people shouldn't fight back for fear of repercussions is laughable.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    25. Re:This isn't activism by Cornwallis · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm just happy that someone on /. *finally* (in the second paragraph of the post above) used the word "rogue" instead of "rouge".

    26. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Precisely what the us government is saying to julian right now. I'm sure the fake rape charges will lead into this.

    27. Re:This isn't activism by Pojut · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah. Like they could totally go into the closet and whisper their opinions to the cockroaches. No need to be able to talk to the people who want to listen to them.

      So they don't have Twitter accounts? Facebook accounts? Or, you know...access to the fucking media?

    28. Re:This isn't activism by Predius · · Score: 1

      Oh no, they were directly targeting www.paypal.com for awhile but later shifted gears as their collective strength was way down compared to when they were hitting Mastercard and they weren't having any real impact hitting www.

    29. Re:This isn't activism by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Funny

      I know what you mean, I always see red when people do that... ;-)

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    30. Re:This isn't activism by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Freedom of speech involves freedom from retaliation. If you choose not to do business with them, that's great."

      But choosing not to do business with them *is* retaliation.

    31. Re:This isn't activism by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      Mastercard and the other companies affected have the right to choose their customers. What these "hactivists" are doing is not preserving freedom of speech, it's an attempt at bullying.

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    32. Re:This isn't activism by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Isn't this true of any protest though, online or off? As soon as the protest becomes effective enough to actually have any real impact, measures will be taken by someone to put it to an end. The only protests that can be allowed are those which achieve nothing.

    33. Re:This isn't activism by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

      Paypal and Mastercard removed a Wikileaks funding aparatus. Amazon refused to host the Wikileaks website.

      So, who was it again that was denying freedom of speech?

      Anonymous is attempting to hurt their pocketbooks, not their ability to speak freely. Think of it as a form of forced boycott of these companies and the companies who rely on their services. If it becomes apparent that the actions of the service provider result in diminished capacity or reliability, the clients will go elsewhere.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    34. Re:This isn't activism by elkstoy · · Score: 0

      They are protecting freedom of speech only to the extent that others speak what they are ok with. When someone says or does something they don't agree with, they launch a ddos attack. It is more like freedom to say what I want you to say...or else!

    35. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    36. Re:This isn't activism by ushering05401 · · Score: 1

      Nice post. Bezos shouldn't be singled out any more than Eric Schmidt, though.

      WTF happened to Schmidt? He has been making a living out of appeasement talk the last few months... When he speaks it becomes clear that he thinks other people are like him, that they will cower in fear when the watchers start waving around their illicitly acquired secret files.

      Dear Eric: That isn't what's going to happen.

      Lucky for Mr. Schmidt he has clearly been thinking a lot about this subject. Maybe he can help the government model some sane reactions that the public can employ for self-defense in the future, when sanctioned rendition and torture are not legally available options.

      Anyhow, squiggleslash, your mouth is too able for spitting on people. Keep talking instead.

    37. Re:This isn't activism by harrytuttle777 · · Score: 2

      Uhh. Isn't the U.S. government 'strongly suggesting' that Amazon not cooperate with Wiki Leaks. I think we can all agree that freedom of speech and freedom of association should be protected. But it appears to me that Big Brother, is playing it's hand and 'leaning' on the corporations that want to do business in the land of the free.

      "Uhh Hey Amazon.com, you REALLY don't want to do business with those scoundrels at wiki leaks do you? Say how do you like the U.S. postal system. How do you like the fact that the internet purchases are not taxed?"

      This issue is not freedom of press / association, it is who is Actually playing the heavy hand and stifling these principals. If it were purely up to Amazon, I think they would be happy to take the money wherever it came from. But it isn't. Part of growing up is the need to make money to support others. That means compromises will be made a living and keep doing business, but don't call those compromises a 'courageous moral decision'

    38. Re:This isn't activism by shentino · · Score: 1

      What people don't realize is that they don't have any power at all.

      Not as individuals.

      By and large, the vast majority of people are dumb sheeple that do as their media overlords tell them. Which forms a positive feedback loop that keeps the politicians and corporations in power.

      Challenging that would require an organized resistance movement to turn the tide. Which would promptly attract persecution from the govcorp complex. There would be a few martyrs along the way, for sure. Martyrs that if they were smart would have to have been willing to create a better world with no hope of actually being part of it.

    39. Re:This isn't activism by kubernet3s · · Score: 1

      See the above post about cyber-picketing. If you do something wrong as a business, don't complain when people can't come into your store.

    40. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4chan's efforts are the internet equivalent of an 11 year old putting dog poop in a bag, leaving it on a porch, setting it on fire and then ringing the bell before running away. They're not "hacktivists" (whatever the fuck that means), they're little children.

    41. Re:This isn't activism by Score+Whore · · Score: 2, Informative

      Amazon first. Wikileaks didn't host at Amazon until their Swedish provider collapsed under the DDOS they were experiencing. So they moved to Amazon and brought the DDOS with them. Regardless of any government action, it's not that shocking that they kicked them out. Just like you'd kick someone out of your restaurant if they walked in the door and took a shit in the kitchen.

      As far as Paypal and Mastercard go, who knows what's happened there. Again, ignoring the government aspect of things, it's been reported (and not disputed) that Julian opened a bank account using fictitious information and he also provided a false address to the British courts, what do you think the odds are that he provided correct information to Paypal and Mastercard? Both of them are companies that are trying to do business and they have to operate within the various regulatory environments they are subject to. Allowing people to use false information on the accounts is a violation of those rules. If Julian and Wikileaks feel that there has been some malfeasance they have legitimate means of recourse.

      Finally, there is a huge difference between not associating with someone and preventing them from doing associating with others.

    42. Re:This isn't activism by nametaken · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A silly point.

      If a thug threatens harm to me or my family for saying something they don't like, that doesn't mean I can't still talk.

      But I'd still say you're directly affecting my freedom of speech.

    43. Re:This isn't activism by Score+Whore · · Score: 1

      Hell, they could even develop their own space program and go to the moon and beam their message back from there...

      Either you just don't get it or you are posting in bad faith. Either way, you're not worth any more time.

    44. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Have you ever noticed that the people arrested at major summits for violent action are rarely beefy paramilitary types? Have you ever heard the rumor that the brain is the most sensitive erogenous organ in the body?

      Next time try seizing on the positive or diffusing via relational observations that might help the poster broaden their style. You never know when you are speaking to a Dedicated Member on the Internet.

      In case you haven't noticed, D.M.'s are popping up everywhere - try grokking the trends in violence on children in Asia against the backdrop of regional integration into global markets over the last twenty years. Figure out where suicide bombers come from. You should start thinking more; emoting less.

      The Internet is serious business. Just ask DHS.

      Your post lacks redeeming qualities and suggests a lazy thought process. Luckily this condition is rarely terminal if the poster survives long enough to grow the fuck up. For today, you are simply full of shit.

      Go suck a dick.

    45. Re:This isn't activism by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Visa and Mastercard are a duopoly. They don't get to decide "who they do business with", because the decision they make is actually "Who you are allowed to do business with".

      Amazon has every right to not do business with Wikileaks. It doesn't, however, have the right to terminate service on a whim without notice. Nor, more importantly, does it have a right to smear Wikileaks when explaining its actions.

      Frankly I don't give a rat's ass about Paypal.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    46. Re:This isn't activism by Weezul · · Score: 1

      I donno if the JavaScript LOIC at http://www.calgarc.com/jloic.html has their current list of targets, but it's default target list is :

      http://www.moneybookers.com:80/
      http://api.paypal.com:443/
      http://verified.visa.com:80/
      http://www.mastercard.com:80/

      You'll notice two are front facing sites, which the buisness may use for "speech", but not necessarily. And the other two are API urls that are never used for "speech".

      Yes, I'd agree they should replace the front facing urls with api urls, obviously that's more effective, and completely avoids trampling on anyone else's right to speak.

      --
      The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
    47. Re:This isn't activism by polar+red · · Score: 1

      If Julian and Wikileaks feel that there has been some malfeasance they have legitimate means of recourse.

      'legitimate means of recourse'. you mean the small guy without money against the wall of lawyers? fair justice is long gone. 'the rich get richer, and the poor go to prison'

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    48. Re:This isn't activism by Duradin · · Score: 2

      Really, I didn't trample on your ability to speak. I just killed your family because of what you said. That totally isn't affecting your ability to speak freely.

    49. Re:This isn't activism by Pojut · · Score: 2

      As far as Paypal and Mastercard go, who knows what's happened there. Again, ignoring the government aspect of things, it's been reported (and not disputed) that Julian opened a bank account using fictitious information and he also provided a false address to the British courts, what do you think the odds are that he provided correct information to Paypal and Mastercard? Both of them are companies that are trying to do business and they have to operate within the various regulatory environments they are subject to. Allowing people to use false information on the accounts is a violation of those rules. If Julian and Wikileaks feel that there has been some malfeasance they have legitimate means of recourse.

      I would like to point out that all of those accounts had been open for months, if not years, prior to the cables even being announced, much less released. You don't find it the least bit odd that those companies just happened to investigate this after the most powerful governments in the world had their dirty laundry put out for all to see?

    50. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freedom of association works fine when you dont have an oligopol/monopol. Which we do.

    51. Re:This isn't activism by Pojut · · Score: 2

      How is it silly? Amazon, Paypal, and the like are large enough to have access to every communication tool ever developed by the human race. I don't think slowing down or taking down their website for a couple of hours is going to prevent them from expressing themselves.

      Think about this: when one of those companies has important information to tell people, where does it appear first: in the news, or on their homepage? Neither. The answer is both.

    52. Re:This isn't activism by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      "Uhh Hey Amazon.com, you REALLY don't want to do business with those scoundrels at wiki leaks do you? Say how do you like the U.S. postal system. How do you like the fact that the internet purchases are not taxed?"

      I would imagine the response would be:
      "Maybe you should talk to North Carolina about taxes first and we'll see what we can do."

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    53. Re:This isn't activism by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Amazon gave notice and why. 24 hour notice andthey stated that wikileaks violated theTOS. If you don't like theterms of service then don't use the service.

      MasterCard and visa. Do very little business from their own websites so why even bother?

      Paypal is paypal and a bank that isn't a bank. They need to burn anyways

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    54. Re:This isn't activism by Pojut · · Score: 1

      What's not to get? Amazon and Paypal have access to dozens of ways of communicating a message, in some cases (depending on where you are located), they have ways of communicating messages FASTER than putting them on their front page.

      I still fail to see how temporarily disrupting one of dozens of ways for a corporation to communicate with the public can be construed as "disrupting free speech." That sounds like the kind of thing you'd hear on Hannity or Olbermann...as in, complete bull.

    55. Re:This isn't activism by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      He’s still talking. Nobody can hear him.

      It’s no different from the counter-protests which are arranged to drown out and crowd out the Phelps crowd when they try to picket military funerals.

      Somehow I doubt that the same people calling these script kiddies “thugs” and telling people that what they’re doing is illegal!!1one would also demand that the Patriot Guard Riders were put in jail for their actions...

      positions itself to physically shield the mourners from the presence of the Westboro protesters by blocking the protesters from view with their motorcade, or by having members hold American flags. The group also drowns out the protesters' chants by singing patriotic songs or by revving motorcycle engines.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    56. Re:This isn't activism by JockTroll · · Score: 1

      You misunderstand: anyone who does business with the enemy is a legitimate target. They should consider themselves lucky they've not been targeted with bombs. Yet.

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
    57. Re:This isn't activism by stdarg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Are you also against civil rights protests that interfered with businesses? Like sit-ins against restaurants that didn't serve black customers?

      It's the same kind of thing. The government apparently isn't interested in making companies act fairly to minority customers, and the minority isn't big enough to cause significant damage through passive actions like boycotts. So you're left with vigilante justice or just ignoring it and moving on.

      I don't know how I feel about it but I am very curious if people who oppose this DOS attack are also against civil rights sit-ins, which are exactly the same, and being done for the same motivations (even if you don't agree with them).

    58. Re:This isn't activism by Duradin · · Score: 2

      The civil rights sit-ins are not the same as the temper tantrum being thrown by Anonymous.

      The cause of the civil rights protesters was just. They did break laws to achieve their aims. They also knowingly accepted the very likely (unlike the script kiddies' very unlikely chance) of arrest or worse. Their willingness to sacrifice added to the cause. Remaining peaceful (largely) when confronted with violence added to the cause.

      Anonymous is in it for the lulz and the destruction.

    59. Re:This isn't activism by Omestes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I doubt it is just "for the lulz" (I feel stupider for typing that), I'm guessing that some portion of Anon does care. They probably care a bit more than you think, since there are probably targets out there that could get even more "lulz" with a bit less risk or work. Looking around, there is a ton of media, IRC channels, forums, and such supporting Operation Payback, or Leakspin, or whatever the hell their calling it these days.

      There is no rule stating that you can't find amusement in protests. Go to some modern protests, or view some footage of protests in the '60s, there was almost a carnival like atmosphere. People enjoyed it. You don't have to be serious faced, completely devoted zealot to have a meaningful protest. You can find it fun as well. It might even be better, since to be human is to garner more sympathy (how much sympathy do we have for raving, utterly devoted, religious zealot protesters?), and it makes a better mockery of whoever your protesting. Your having fun inspite of their nasty behaviors.

      Rebellion has always been playful.

      I would never argue against doing things you believe in AND getting your "lulz" from it, I would rather you go protest laughing. Everything is better when there is some humor, and element of joie de vivre involved. There is a difference between being serious about something, and being just plain creepy.

      I do have some distaste over anything 4Chan, and specifically /b/ does, but I think thats mainly just a generational, or cultural thing and really has no relevance on much of anything.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    60. Re:This isn't activism by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Freedom of speech involves freedom from retaliation.

      Exactly, and wikileaks doesn't have it because of the kind of people that were DDoSed.
      Make no mistakes however. Websites is a minor way of Mastercard or Paypal to comunicate or to make business. Hell, I bet hundreds of journalists actively contacted them to allow them to communicate. So saying the aim of these attacks were to censor them is really a strange claim. These DDoS were a mere annoyance, a small protest in front of their HQ building. The most damage was PR.
      A line has been crossed when a journalism website was hit by illegal pressure from governments. I think it is fair that protestors cross another line. The ball is in the governments side now. Escalation will now be their responsibility.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    61. Re:This isn't activism by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Why do corporations have freedom of association? How about corporations with authorized monopolies, like the power company or the cable company?

      To me there's a difference between the type of business where one human is serving another (like a racist self-employed taxi driver who refuses to drive black people around) and one like Amazon hosting where a computer is doing all the work and people are barely involved. Same with Mastercard/Visa/etc.

      Also it seems like there's a basic problem with applying free speech to electronic communication. This DDOS presumably isn't just sending random data to certain ports, but making legitimate or semi-legitimate requests to affect CPU/memory as well. It's being done by individuals over recognized protocols and connections that have been paid for by real people. Is that not free speech? Seems like criticism of Anonymous is like criticizing Westboro Baptist Church when they go around yelling at funerals. They're disruptive and abusive.. but so far it's protected.

      I'm also curious if there's a distinction between an attack involving a botnet where each computer is acting without the consent of its owner, versus one where thousands of people team up and voluntarily join one. Or if there's not even a botnet, but thousands of people clicking refresh on a homepage or leaving garbage comments on a form or whatever. Would you treat all of those as DDOS attacks?

    62. Re:This isn't activism by gox · · Score: 1

      doing far more damage than good because it easily allows the politicians to say "We need an internet kill switch".

      I haven't made my mind yet but this might also be a good thing. It's better they do it sooner than later, without having prepared the public enough to prevent any counter movement. There are two outcomes they will settle for, either people become so dumbed-down that you don't even need to kill the Internet-as-we-know-it (in which case you do it anyways) or people become so repressed that they would actually support such an act.

      Now, if they do it now, we might have a big enough movement to create an Internet from scratch, without any direct or indirect (through ISPs, etc.) attachments to world states. Even the wireless routers we already have, plus a few fast long-distance connections, should be enough to create a world-wide mesh network, albeit slow.

    63. Re:This isn't activism by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Why can't bullying be used to preserve free speech? How about if the "bullying" has absolutely no physical component, but is completely electronic, i.e. pure speech itself?

      Why do companies have a right to choose their customers? I'm not saying they don't, but what is your philosophical basis for that? I'm sure it leads to all sorts of interesting, unintended situations.

    64. Re:This isn't activism by Zorpheus · · Score: 1

      it's been reported (and not disputed) that Julian opened a bank account using fictitious information and he also provided a false address to the British courts

      He did not open a bank account using fictitious information. He used his lawyer's address because he did not live in Switzerland yet. And I never heard about him giving a false address to the British courts?

    65. Re:This isn't activism by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      This isn't a civil rights protest. This is a bunch of script kiddies throwing a temper tantrum. Really Visa and Mastercard sites are mainly used by end users to do things like check transactions. Taking it down didn't hurt their bottom line at all. This is simple vandalism and not activism. The civil rights protesters stood up for what was right and a lot of them went to jail.
      The the 4chan script kiddies are doing is digital hiding out in the bushes and throwing eggs are cars and spay painting graffiti.

      Vandalism != to protesting.

      MLK and Gandhi didn't do anything anomalously.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    66. Re:This isn't activism by E+IS+mC(Square) · · Score: 1

      Nope. It's freedom of speech when you don't let somebody donate money to a particular group of people.

    67. Re:This isn't activism by kiwimate · · Score: 1

      You're either being deliberately provocative, deliberately obtuse, or just plain puerile.

      These attacks are being executed by a group of sheep who give interviews to news outlets and throw out handy unthinking catch phrases like "information wants to be free" and "we demand complete transparency of information" while failing to see the hypocrisy in saying "shh, no, you can't use my name, I'm too scared". They're cowards, vandals, and hypocrites, and what annoys me the most is they claim to speak for me even if I don't realize or accept it.

      They like to play up their image by pretending to be supremely skillful hackers when all they're doing is blithely and naively granting control of their computers to a faceless name on the web who says they'll only use that control to attack the evil corporations.

      Yes, I'm annoyed, and it really surprises me I haven't seen more condemnation here. I posted on an earlier story that the average man in the street would see this, rightly or wrongly, as being cyber-terrorism which is directly linked with WikiLeaks and would see that as a negative against the overall message (whatever the hell that is; even that hasn't been communicated in a succinct and coherent manner that's made it out to the public). And lo and behold, that's exactly what was being put forth on all the news shows over this weekend.

      Bunch of idiots. If you believe this is a valuable thing that WikiLeaks has done (and I don't), then they've done a better job at destroying the public acceptance of any legitimate leaks than any official US retribution.

    68. Re:This isn't activism by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Visa, MC and Amazon didn't "choose" not to do business with Wikileaks. They have been "asked" to do so, and presented with the alternative to piss off Wikileaks or the US governments, they choose the (presumably) smaller problem. Note that they were not required by law to cease business with Wikileaks or that the government had any (legally backed) reason to require them to cease business. It was just "convenient" for the US government. They just "wanted" to cut off Wikileaks from its resources.

      Visa, MC and Amazon were not required, neither by law nor convention nor any other reason to comply with the "request". They just did because it can be beneficial to do the US government a "favor". Especially if it doesn't really cost you anything.

      The only thing the DDoSs did is, they made it cost something. And hopefully companies will from now on be more considerate when doing "favors".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    69. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazon gave notice and why. 24 hour notice andthey stated that wikileaks violated theTOS. If you don't like theterms of service then don't use the service.

      Except Wikileaks didn't break their terms of service. It's not illegal to publish the documents in question. It's just another in a long line of maneuverings by the U.S. government to try and make things as hard as possible for the site to continue, while trying to appear as though they are the victims/champions of justice.

      You can bet that it had been strongly suggested to the EC2 high-ups to terminate the service. Amazon like money, so they folded. Any other interpretation of these events is just naive.

    70. Re:This isn't activism by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      A thug putting pressure on them to do as they please... just to make things clear now, you mean Anonymous or the US government? Both tried to "persuade" them to do their bidding, and neither had any legal reason to do so.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    71. Re:This isn't activism by Pojut · · Score: 1

      Bunch of idiots. If you believe this is a valuable thing that WikiLeaks has done (and I don't), then they've done a better job at destroying the public acceptance of any legitimate leaks than any official US retribution.

      Wait...so you're saying releasing cables showing that diplmats are talking smack about countries they're negotiating with, that military contracters are hiring child prostitutes, or proving that certain countries are working with others to help them obtain nuclear materials doesn't count as a "vaulable thing"?

      Christ, what DO you consider valuable? Let me guess...keeping corruption buried from the public?

    72. Re:This isn't activism by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Freely? Are you kidding me?

      Do you really think Visa and MC woke up one morning and found out that "Hmm. We suddenly don't like Wikileaks anymore." And Amazon, Paypal and that Swiss bank the name of which I keep forgetting, all had the same idea all at the same time? Boy, talk about great minds thinking alike.

      They didn't "freely" decide to stop doing business with Wikileaks. You may rest assured that they were "asked" to freeze the funds and stop dealing with Wikileaks. Note that they were not required BY LAW to do so. If they were, I'd be fully on your side. There is no law that requires them to cease business with Wikileaks. They were just "asked" to cease business and figured that it doesn't matter, so we better do what the US gov wants, even though there is zero legal reason to comply.

      Simply allowing this to happen means that whoever just happens to be in power in the US can basically decide who may and who may not do business, with whomever. Is that what we want? A government that may dictate who may and who may not buy, sell or otherwise trade? Not based on laws but on whim?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    73. Re:This isn't activism by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      I don't know if it is true but I've read in some media accounts that these attacks have in some cases prevented these companies from conducting their regular financial transactions with customers.

      Anyone know if this is true? If it is true Anon. is doing a lot more than preventing these companies from sharing info via a website..

    74. Re:This isn't activism by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      Some 16 year old in Europe has already been arrested over the anon. ddos attacks - at least I read it in the paper..

    75. Re:This isn't activism by DrXym · · Score: 0
      It doesn't come down to this at all. They could write to their democratically elected representatives, they could write to newspapers, they could organize rallies, or contribute to blogs, or start a visasucks.com style site, or hand out flyers, or vote for any propositions which punish Amazon or run counter to its interests. Instead some assholes decided to launch a DDOS attack. I doubt it had anything whatsoever with hacktivism and was more a convenient excuse for some kiddies to try and vandalise a site.

      Fat lot of good it will do in the long or short term. Most sites of the size of Amazon, Visa etc. have the resources to shrug off even the most concerted attacks.

    76. Re:This isn't activism by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      Scat analogy ftw!

    77. Re:This isn't activism by Unequivocal · · Score: 1

      More like destroying some cash in a bank and then leaving a cell phone behind so the bank staff can call the cops and/or press.

    78. Re:This isn't activism by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Just like you'd kick someone out of your restaurant if they walked in the door and took a shit in the kitchen.

      No, it's like kicking someone out of your restaurant if a health inspector came in and told you they would give you a bad report otherwise. But thanks for your shitty analogy, BadAnalogyGuy has been falling down lately.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    79. Re:This isn't activism by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Freedom of Speech applies to government interactions with the public, not business interactions with the public.

      Please can this meme die. Free Speech refers to the ability to disseminate ideas without fear of persecution. In the USA, constitutionally protected free speech applies to the federal government, but that is not the limit of free speech. The US constitution does not enumerate your rights, it enumerates the powers of the federal government, explicitly denying them the right to interfere with free speech but not implicitly giving everyone else the right to do so.

      What does Freedom of Speech have to do with whether a corporation chooses to host someone?

      Very little, as long as it's a single corporation that doesn't have a monopoly. The problem is when it is impossible to exercise free speech without some form of corporate assistance (because all of the required infrastructure is under corporate control), and no corporation will assist you.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    80. Re:This isn't activism by stdarg · · Score: 1

      How so?

      How is the right to eat at a certain restaurant "more just" than the right to publish freely?

      Okay if you're right that they are purely in it for the lulz than you may be right, but come on, can't you see through that as a defense mechanism to not feel bad when they fail and not be called out for hypocrisy on other high-horse issues?

      I mean seriously. Is it a coincidence that Anonymous is supporting Wikileaks, but not the KKK? Why not DDOS the NAACP in the name of the KKK? That's more lulz worthy if that's REALLY the goal.

    81. Re:This isn't activism by stdarg · · Score: 1

      This isn't a civil rights protest.

      Of course it is. If it's just a random attack or vandalism or a temper tantrum, is it purely coincidental that it involves companies that screwed Wikileaks and may have bowed to government pressure in doing so? Why isn't toysrus.com being DDOS'd?

      But I'm sure one day that will happen. The response to harmless attacks is to belittle them and not change anything.

      You remember what our lovely freedom-loving government and press said to Terry Jones, right? "Publicly burning the Koran is like shouting fire in a crowded theater because people may die from the consequences. It endangers our troops and our security interests. etc etc." (Actually, it was very similar to what is being said about Wikileaks, but that's another issue.) Hell even a US Supreme Court Justice got on board with that sort of criticism.

      Now Anonymous doesn't get the respect that terrorists and radical Muslims do. They are "kids" with "temper tantrums" etc. Well okay.. do you know what you are asking for with that?

      I'm sure groups like Anonymous will never come to that, because at heart they are good people who don't *want* to go around killing innocent people. It's just sad to me that we as a society negotiate with terrorists and laugh at peaceful people.

      The civil rights protesters stood up for what was right and a lot of them went to jail.

      Different times, different methods. Why go to jail if you don't have to? How does that make your cause more or less noble?

    82. Re:This isn't activism by DogDude · · Score: 2

      "It doesn't come down to this at all. They could write to their democratically elected representatives, they could write to newspapers, they could organize rallies, or contribute to blogs, or start a visasucks.com style site, or hand out flyers, or vote for any propositions which punish Amazon or run counter to its interests. "

      Are you joking?

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    83. Re:This isn't activism by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      Well, not anymore I guess. I don't have another family for you to threaten to kill!

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    84. Re:This isn't activism by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I keep seeing posts saying Assange or the Anon crowd are just like the US government, because they're not giving out all their information, and this makes them hypocrites.

      It's sickening that people can't see the difference between an individual and a government.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    85. Re:This isn't activism by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      You are completely insane.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    86. Re:This isn't activism by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Bull.
      Civil rights protests where to change laws. To change the laws people showed that they where willing to break those laws in a way that didn't cause harm.
      First of all they didn't have sit ins at dinners. That sat down and tried to be customers!
      They didn't block others from being customers!
      That is one of the many problems with this world. People try and draw conclusions based on history they don't even know.
      What 4Chan is doing more along the lines of the Watts riots.
      It is also absolutely dumb to expect a company to stand up to the government they need to work under. To use your own words "why go to jail if you don't have too?"

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    87. Re:This isn't activism by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1, Troll

      Horse shit. I've protested, I've marched, and damn it I knew what I was getting in to. I was ready (but not expecting) to be on the news with my face and name. I was NOT anonymous, delibrately so, and with all those consequences. I was ready for my name to point to a news article about that protest, where I was quoted.

      Now, none of this happened, But I was ready and willing for it to happen.

      Protest isn't supposed to be easy. In fact, it cheapens it if it is. If I download a program, run it in the background, then go back to watching TV or jacking off - how is that morally equivalent to people spending many hours of their life calling phones? Or more so - getting beat up or hosed down for standing up for yourself and your skin color?

      But these "hactivists" don't understand WHAT they're doing, they don't understand WHY, and they think it's a joke and don't expect to get caught. Those disqualify this breed of vandalism three times over. If they understand what they were doing, the instructions would be more than "go to this website, download this, and type in paypal. lulz". If they understood why, they wouldn't be doing it - at least not Amazon. What, so Amazon is supposed to host Wikileaks despite the DDoS it was getting? That's like if I took a shit in your car, and some guy on the street beat you up for kicking me out. And they're fully expecting to never get caught - look at that idiot in Europe who was astonished to find out that his computer was sending PACKETS with his ADDRESS!

      I basically support Wikileaks, mostly because it convinces me that things aren't that bad. Our operatives shouldn't be making stupid mistakes, but our government really should be protecting them. Holy shit, there are civilian casualties in a war? Pakistan is two faced? Stop the presses! Wikileaks hasn't leaked anything new to those of us paying attention to the world.

      But these "hacktivists" are absolutely not protesting. They're clicking a button, grabbing a Coke, and playing XBox. By calling them protesters, or even activists, you cheapen what real protest is. Staring down a gun barrel for daring to protest Vietnam, and having a bit of lag on your MW2 because you ran some program you don't understand for reasons you don't understand - those are absolutely not the same thing.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    88. Re:This isn't activism by DrXym · · Score: 1

      No I am being completely serious. 4chan is a bunch of kiddies that does stuff like DDOS, griefing etc. for lulz. If they actually cared about the issues they pretend to espouse there would be numerous more legitimate routes of protest.

    89. Re:This isn't activism by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Civil rights protests where to change laws.

      Sure, but they did so by targeting businesses, who were themselves just following the law. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-01-sit-ins-civil-rights_N.htm

      First of all they didn't have sit ins at dinners. That sat down and tried to be customers!
      They didn't block others from being customers!

      Of course they blocked others from being customers. That was the whole point. They sat in seats until they were served, but they were never served, so the restaurant or store would have no (or fewer) customers that day.

      It is also absolutely dumb to expect a company to stand up to the government they need to work under. To use your own words "why go to jail if you don't have too?"

      True. So this is a case of fighting unfairness with more unfairness. Maybe that doesn't work, but it's not like it's making the situation worse either.

    90. Re:This isn't activism by Shauni · · Score: 1

      Threats, property destruction etc, are clearly illegal. Angry letters and noisy protests are not, even if they happen to "disrupt business."

    91. Re:This isn't activism by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      "The problem is this "hacktivism" is doing far more damage than good because it easily allows the politicians to say "We need an internet kill switch"."

      If you think that the politicians need a reason to do this, then you're living on another planet.

      They never need a "reason" to introduce things, but they at least need the public to not be outraged. If they think they won't face retaliation from a voting public, they'll go for it. If the worst they'll get is the 'meh' that they usually do when it comes to issues like these, they'll go for it and let the courts strike it down if they can't get away with this.

    92. Re:This isn't activism by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Really it isn't making things worse.
      1. What about the people who's businesses depend on PayPal, Visa, or MasterCard?
      2. What about the customers that just want to do their shopping?
      And are you so foolish to think that innocent people that are getting financially hurt over this "unfairness" are going to support wikileaks and the protesters or they are going to support more governmental crack downs on such stupid vandalism?
      Like I said it is the Watts Riots or the Zootsuit riots and not a useful protest.
      It is harmful, dangerous, and frankly just downright stupid. Wikileaks now looks like the villian and is blackmailing the world.
      And to put in completely in perspective on just how childish and harmful this vandalism is... Assange doesn't even support it!
      http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/12/10/assange-distances-wikileaks-cyber-attacks/
      Yes I know it is fox news but they did do a telephone interview with his lawyer.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    93. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tits or GTFO.

    94. Re:This isn't activism by Terrasque · · Score: 1

      Hurr durr, and that's why they're targeting their corporate web page, and not their payment services (maybe apart from paypal, which runs both on same systems). Thank you for showing that you have no clue what you're talking about. GG BB QQ.

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    95. Re:This isn't activism by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      (maybe apart from paypal, which runs both on same systems).

      You really think that they they are being selective or that the payment network is just out of their reach?
      And they where hitting paypal and that could hurt a lot of people and as I posted even Assange doesn't support it.

      Please this is simple and harmful vandalism. Nothing more that a few script kiddies pretending that they are some kind of freedom fighter. Next week 4Chan will attack some company that only offers none fat milk in their coffee.
       

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    96. Re:This isn't activism by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I'm confused, which they are you referring to.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    97. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My guess is that 5% really care and have thought about the issue. 95% are probably kids thinking "d00d I cn dl hax 2 help teh cause!"

    98. Re:This isn't activism by JxcelDolghmQ · · Score: 0

      How do you know that they haven't already written their representatives?

      You're really naive, aren't you?

    99. Re:This isn't activism by kiwimate · · Score: 1

      Actually, no, I don't. Shocked? As others have mentioned, none of that is a surprise. Much of it is reprehensible, but essentially all that's been done is to weaken especially fragile diplomatic relations. That is a bad thing.

      I wish people would recognize that international relations are delicate and the real world is not black and white. Is it easier if I rephrase it - "the goodies are weaker and the baddies are stronger"? Yes, I know sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, but it seems to be about all some people understand.

    100. Re:This isn't activism by kiwimate · · Score: 1

      No, what makes them hypocrites is not the difference between an individual and a government. Rather, they make themselves hypocrites by placing themselves on a high pedestal in (i) demanding complete transparency (yes, they do), and (ii) comparing themselves to civil rights protesters who actually had the guts to stand up for something. These asses aren't; they are explicitly refusing to have the courage of their convictions, instead hiding behind naive and hoped-for anonymity. That's sickening. That's a slap in the face to real heroes, like Rosa Parks, Desmond Tutu, and Kate Sheppard.

    101. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They just did because it can be beneficial to do the US government a "favor". Especially if it doesn't really cost you anything.

      Well it costs you the opportunity to support the cause of Liberty by donating to Wikileaks.

    102. Re:This isn't activism by Siffy · · Score: 1

      "How do you like the fact that the internet purchases are not taxed?"

      Just because you're evading the taxes doesn't mean those taxes don't exist. You as the consumer are responsible for paying those taxes to your home state (little s) not the State (big s, federal level).

      http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/article-29919.html

      The federal government doesn't collect sales taxes. They derive their revenue through the IRS on the other end when the money comes into the hands of the eventual consumer. Then they again get another portion of the income, not revenue, of whatever business sold you its goods or services. Basically, you're delusional if you don't think the federal government is getting its share of every purchase multiple times over.

    103. Re:This isn't activism by Capsaicin · · Score: 1

      Freedom of speech involves freedom from retaliation.

      Such as having the methods of funding your organisation cut off at the request of state?

      If you choose not to do business with them, that's great. But if you prevent others from doing business with them then you've crossed the line.

      But they've crossed the line in the first place. In a market where Visa and Mastercard form a virtual duopoly, they have both made the call to refuse to provide their usual service between a lawful payer and a lawful payee. If you have a competitive market, that doesn't matter, the payer can simply seek out someone else's service. However in the RL, this in effect amounts to Visa and Mastercard making decisions about how their we spend our money. That's a line, it ought not be legal for them to cross.

      It is all the worse that the control exerted over our personal expenditure is aimed precisely at shoring up the power of the state by undermining freedom of speech and transparent government.

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    104. Re:This isn't activism by Nyder · · Score: 1

      Guess what, the Taliban calls you a "spoiled brat acting like thugs".
      Iran calls you that.
      North Korea calls the western world that.

      It makes it a lot easier to hate the other side if you give them a derogatory name and belittle them.

      I say to them: "takes one to know one"

      --
      Be seeing you...
    105. Re:This isn't activism by Terrasque · · Score: 1

      Please this is simple and harmful vandalism. Nothing more that a few colonists pretending that they are some kind of freedom fighter. Next week those Bostons will attack some company that only offers tea instead of coffee.

      Fixed?

      One man's freedom fighter is another man's terro... erm I mean script kiddie.

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    106. Re:This isn't activism by _xen · · Score: 1

      I don't know if it is true but I've read in some media accounts

      [citation needed]

      that these attacks have in some cases prevented these companies from conducting their regular financial transactions with customers.

      Anyone know if this is true?

      It would be nice to think they did, but I doubt it. It doesn't seem to be getting much of mention (yet) in the professional security reporting.

      If it is true Anon. is doing a lot more than preventing these companies from sharing info via a website..

      Yes they would be imposing a cost on companies who are corruptly swapping favors with politicians. Unfortunately the cost is unlikely to persuade these companies from behaving any better in the future.

    107. Re:This isn't activism by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      See the above post about cyber-picketing. If you do something wrong as a business, don't complain when people can't come into your store.

      As with real life picketing, you can annoy potential customers, but you can't superglue the shop's doors shut.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    108. Re:This isn't activism by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      You misunderstand: anyone who does business with the enemy is a legitimate target. They should consider themselves lucky they've not been targeted with bombs. Yet.

      If you've decided that the US government is your enemy, then get ready for a miserable life. Or cover your tracks really fucking carefully.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    109. Re:This isn't activism by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      A line has been crossed when a journalism website was hit by illegal pressure from governments. I think it is fair that protestors cross another line. The ball is in the governments side now. Escalation will now be their responsibility.

      There's a huge difference between annoying Amazon or Paypal and pissing off the US government. It's not a fight I'd enter badly prepared.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    110. Re:This isn't activism by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Just because you're evading the taxes doesn't mean those taxes don't exist. You as the consumer are responsible for paying those taxes to your home state (little s) not the State (big s, federal level).

      Out of curiosity, does anyone ever get prosecuted for evading these taxes?

      (I am not American).

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    111. Re:This isn't activism by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      If you believe this is a valuable thing that WikiLeaks has done (and I don't)

      The phrase in parentheses is unnecessary, we all guessed that already. So I don't see why the pro-Wikileaks actions of Anonymous bother you so much, they're not claimning to speak for you at all.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    112. Re:This isn't activism by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      When I'm really drunk I see rouge elephants.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    113. Re:This isn't activism by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Of course, DDoSing, Raiding, IRL stalking, etc, are fucking funny

      Not inherently, it really depends on the target.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    114. Re:This isn't activism by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Spot on. We had riots in London last week by students protesting against increased tuition fees. They started out peaceful but turned violet when people realised no-one was taking any notice.

      Over a million people marched against invading Iraq but the politicians ignored them. Not a single news program broadcast a speech from the G20 protests and they were again ignored by politicians. Even going back to the Poll Tax when people were just protesting the government ignored them. It was only once they turned violent that they had to pay attention and sure enough eventually the Poll Tax was scrapped.

      If there is a line it is a very fuzzy one. Democracy fails by not listening to people; Even at election time it is more about positioning and attacking the other guys than about actual policies, especially since everyone knows that any election promise is worthless. You also don't get to choose which ideas you want, you have to vote for a single party and a single manifesto. Issues come up between elections that are not covered by manifestos too. People feel powerless, and while I generally feel violence is not a good way to resolve things it does appear to be the only way to make any kind of half-way effective protest these days.

      Anonymous is just a bunch of ordinary people with no power to change things legitimately. By DDOSing popular sites (actually just the payment processing parts) they made front page headline news. Think what you want of their actions but at least people know their views now and apparently a lot of them joined the cause because of that.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    115. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check out further down in this thread -- there are some nice cites showing anon.'s attack targets. They include api websites so it's pretty definite P is right about the attack focusing on financial transactions and not just free speech communication.

    116. Re:This isn't activism by DrXym · · Score: 1

      You're the naive one for suggesting they are doing this for any reason except the lulz. There is no activism here, just a bunch of kiddies using wikileaks as a convenient excuse to launch a DDOS attack.

    117. Re:This isn't activism by kiwimate · · Score: 1

      Yes, actually, they do. If you've read the Operation Payback manifesto and some of the media interviews, that's exactly what they claim, and the supercilious and smug attitude annoys the hell out of me.

      I think this is a pretty good read.

    118. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only were they not required by law, they are actually breaking the law by doing this.

      To freeze someones assets requires judicial action taken through the courts, however this have not been done, neither by the companies or by the government who have ordered this. It is actually every American's duty to now rise up against their government and demand equal justice for everyone and that these things are not done in their name.

      The activists who try to pin down the companies acting illegally here is, as you point out, putting an opposing force to the leaning of the US government by letting these companies illegal actions cost something.

    119. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IKEA is in no way American! I recent that... ;)

      Otherwise you are quite right... besides your transport to the place was being done in the back of a Ford pickup truck.

    120. Re:This isn't activism by Grapplebeam · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, the media that rich people own? How fast did we forget about the massacres in Darfur? Libya? How about Rwanda? These things, although they are far more important than 'America's Top Model', don't get reported on because they're inconvinient. Remember, this is the same media that doesn't have the balls to question anything, anymore. We just have talking heads that will go along with anything, without looking for the corruption. We won't have another Watergate scandal because no one will be informed it happened. And if you're defending the companies' right to freedom of speech, I've got two things: They're not people, and they are killing freedom of speech.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree.
    121. Re:This isn't activism by Grapplebeam · · Score: 1

      Again, assuming anything about an Anon is wrong. Newfags and oldfags are pointless nametags created by bored Anons to fuck with newfags, because it just doesn't matter. People will do what they want, when they want. It's not like everyone that's an oldfag is a monster of a human being, and anyone new is a shining example of humanity. They're all just people, and anyone who thinks having been around the past four years makes you intrinsically better is just an elitist. Don't make assumptions about the group other than that they're disorganized to the point of anarchy, and you can motivate some of them to a common goal with the right words like you could in any anarchaic situation.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree.
    122. Re:This isn't activism by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Yea and some people think the Klan has the right idea. They are also wrong.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    123. Re:This isn't activism by Terrasque · · Score: 1

      Yea and some people think the Klan has the right idea. They are also wrong.

      You're doing it wrong, you're supposed to say "the nazis" there.

      *sigh* what is the world coming to when people can't even Godwin properly? :(

      Anyway, your argument have the same logic as :

      Yea and some people think Mahatma Gandhi had the right idea. They are also right.

      and thus that is a valid rebuttal. Now, can you get some actual, original arguments going? You're starting to lose the entertainment value here.

      BTW, want some fun fact?
      Citation Wikipedia

      Writing on the subject of immigration in 1903, Gandhi commented: "We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do... We believe also that the white race in South Africa should be the predominating race."

      During his time in South Africa, Gandhi protested repeatedly about the social classification of blacks with Indians, whom he described as "undoubtedly infinitely superior to the Kaffirs"

      Quite the enlightened hero indeed. And some more fun, about the Boston Tea Party:

      That evening, a group of 30 to 130 men, some of them thinly disguised as Mohawk Indians, boarded the three vessels and, over the course of three hours, dumped all 342 chests of tea into the water.

      They were even disguised as indians! Truly just barbaric thugs that didn't believe anything in what they did!

      (Sidenote, I wonder if it's still possible to get "+5, Troll" moderation?)

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    124. Re:This isn't activism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TITS OR GTFO

    125. Re:This isn't activism by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Yea and the 4Chan gang are heroes for hacking Gawker and compromising all those passwords? They couldn't even take down PayPal or Amazon. So they are nothing but a gang of ineffectual thugs.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    126. Re:This isn't activism by harrytuttle777 · · Score: 1

      Generally no, unless you happen to live in the Great State of North Carolina, and even then I am not sure. When I was getting ready to leave the state, there was a big fight brewing. The brick and mortar shops were were whining about unfair competition, and making large contributions to the state legislature, . So North Carolina passed / may have passed a law requiring the collection of sales tax. I know Amazon was fighting it and threatening to boycott the state. I am not sure how it all played out. There is no law that I know of requiring you to pay sales tax for items purchased on-line (unless you live in that state).

      -It used to be the criminals who ran the booze, the numbers rackets, Not its the government. My State actually wants you to get drunk and waste all my money playing the lottery.
      -Adam Sandler

  2. Can we PLEASE.... by Haedrian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Stop calling it HACKtivism?

    Amongst nerds (which is pretty much whoever is following it on this site) - to 'hack' does not meant the same as 'to crack'.

    And calling DDOSing 'hacking' is wrong on both definitions of hack. Especially if the client is just a script kiddie using a program which s/he doesn't know (or care enough) to work out what its doing exactly.

    1. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Dyinobal · · Score: 1

      Even if it was hacking the name is just stupid.

    2. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Krneki · · Score: 1

      Yap, DDOSing is lame.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    3. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed, let's call call "Operation: Payback" what it really is, "tantrumism".

    4. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Its a lost cause, much of our hacker culture was long time hijacked by people belonging to a group of users with no or little passion for programming, hardware modifications etc .... people today does not realize that hacking is a programming subculture

    5. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Amongst nerds (which is pretty much whoever is following it on this site) - to 'hack' does not meant the same as 'to crack'.

      You know, for many of us, we simply don't care about this whiny distinction between "hacking and cracking".

      It's stupid -- back in the day, you could hack some code, or you could hack into a system, or you could pull off a hack and hang a volkswagon from a bridge or make your calculator to something cool that nobody expect. We understood the difference between these things, and it was all one word.

      You whiny kids who think you "own" the language and have to be telling everybody the "right" want to say it are just fooling yourselves. Even in the nerd community you think you represent, for many of us "hack" still means exactly what you claim it doesn't. Hell, 2600 has been around since the 80's, and it's always been hacker -- it's got a shitload more street cred than you kids who think that it's always been differentiated. Anybody under 40 who is saying anything about what is "hack" and what is "crack" is too fucking young to know what they're talking about.

      It's all the same fucking thing -- "cracker" is a very recent word, and quite an arbitrary distinction which people tried to apply after the fact to make what they did sound less evil and dissociate itself from malicious break-in type stuff. Get over it.

      Now, STFU, and get off my fucking lawn.

    6. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Scriptkiddivism just doesn't sound as cool.
      \

      (Real, long-term change: Governance modeled after free software.)

    7. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by ushering05401 · · Score: 1

      Agreed, let's call call "Operation: Payback" what it really is, "tantrumism".

      That reflects the key point and places the emphasis on the little brother aspect of current events. Unfortunately it diminishes the importance of the explosive nature of civil unrest.

      Hopefully the Pols aren't sleeping on the fact that little brother is only going to get more unreasonable. Anyhow, this is how it happens - you know - downfall.

    8. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but it sounds a lot nicer than "vigilantism", doesn't it?

    9. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Moryath · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Programming is a hacking subculture. Or, program hacking is a subculture of hacking generally.

      The people who are program hackers today, would have been gearheads 60 years ago, constantly tweaking their engines for performance.

    10. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Actually I've read the word "cracker" already in the 80s (sorry, can't remember exactly where, except that it was in some computer magazine). However, at that time it didn't refer to people breaking into computers, but to people cracking copyright protection on games.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    11. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A Hacker refers to a person who enjoy programming and is probably pretty good at it, thats how it started. Everything else is a miss interpretation that often started in the media because they could not / did not care to get the terms right ....

    12. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by shentino · · Score: 1

      You have a point.

      Mainstream culture is also legion.

    13. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by sorak · · Score: 1

      If you called it cracktivism, it would appeal to a completely different crowd.

    14. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by travisb828 · · Score: 1

      We can call it cracking, but the rest of the world will continue to call it hacking. Crackers come with soup or are white people.

    15. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by JockTroll · · Score: 2

      A "Hacker" is someone who enjoys tinkering with both hardware and software, trying to find new ways to push them to new limits, discovering new tricks and sharing them with like-minded people. The Hacker is a Jock, whose competitive and inquisitive mind pushes him to new heights, challenging the established mechanical status quo, someone who in the face of the loserboys who whine "it can't be done!" answers "Ha! See that!" and the proceeds to do what the loserboys thought impossible. Then he beats them up and shits on their faces.

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
    16. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh fuck dude get over yourself.

      Nobody but pedantic little internet wannabes even care.

      Go get laid or something. and maybe you'll notice nobody gives a damm about what word was used in a stupid article about a non-event by a bunch of internet trolls.

    17. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why call things as hackers or hactivism, why not just call it simply "operation payback time"? I think that would be a decent name ;)

    18. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      The Boston Tea Party was an act of tantrumism too. Rosa Parks was a tantrumist when she refused to stand at the back of the bus.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    19. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Amongst nerds (which is pretty much whoever is following it on this site)

      I wouldn't be so sure about that. Lately it seems there are a lot of technophobic, two digit IQ jocks trolling the place, as well as nerd wannabes.

      to 'hack' does not meant the same as 'to crack'.

      I was at the bar the other night (it's a redneck bar in the ghetto), and the owner had lost his wifi password, and his daughter wanted to get on the internet with her laptop.

      I told her to go in the office and google for AirCrack, and everybody at the bar burst out laughing. I had to explain that in nerdville, "crack" means something completely different than it does in the ghetto.

      I also tried to explian that "hacking" was modifying a piece of hardware to do what it wasn't designed for (my favorite all time hack was the O2 scrubbers on the Apollo 13 mission, that was some excellent thinking) or to write a quick and dirty program to solve a one-time problem, but by then they were all ignoring me and watching the football game on TV.

      We can't win.

    20. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by trollertron3000 · · Score: 0

      Can we please give up the "hacker != cracker" nomenclature ghost? The mainstream calls crackers hackers and that's not going to change. So update your protocol and stop sending responses that get sent to the bit bucket.

      --
      Tiger Blooded Bi-Winning Machine
    21. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by jpmorgan · · Score: 1

      This war was lost 20 years ago, it's time to give it a rest. "Crack" will not replace "hack" in these contexts, nor will the south rise again.

    22. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      I also tried to explian that "hacking" was modifying a piece of hardware to do what it wasn't designed for (my favorite all time hack was the O2 scrubbers on the Apollo 13 mission, that was some excellent thinking) or to write a quick and dirty program to solve a one-time problem, but by then they were all ignoring me and watching the football game on TV.

      Dude, be honest .... are you even slightly surprised that a bunch of people in a bar didn't care?

      I honestly can't tell if that's brilliantly crafted metaphor, or if you really did try to explain this to a bunch of people in a bar.

      If it's the latter, at the very least, you should have expected a wedgie or a swirlie. :-P

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    23. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The people who are program hackers today, would have been gearheads 60 years ago, constantly tweaking their engines for performance.

      More likely they would have been building high fidelity stereo systems and guitar amplifiers. Les Paul was a hacker!

    24. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I heard the word "cracker" in the 1960s. It referred to people breaking into safes.

    25. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoever is following this site /should have been aware by now/ that a lot of posts on Slashdot are written in such a way to make suckers like you comment. It's all for the $$$.

    26. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Dude, be honest .... are you even slightly surprised that a bunch of people in a bar didn't care?

      No, not in the least.

      I honestly can't tell if that's brilliantly crafted metaphor, or if you really did try to explain this to a bunch of people in a bar.

      It's a true story.

      If it's the latter, at the very least, you should have expected a wedgie or a swirlie.

      You don't see much of that after you get out of high school. You do see other asinine and obnoxious behavior, though. And besides, if they piss me off, who's going to fix their computers and show them how to use them?

    27. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by slick7 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it sounds a lot nicer than "vigilantism", doesn't it?

      Government interference is probably closer than you think.

      --
      The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
    28. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last thing I wanna be called is "cracker."

      http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cracker

    29. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      No, not in the least.

      OK, just checking. ;-)

      "If it's the latter, at the very least, you should have expected a wedgie or a swirlie."

      You don't see much of that after you get out of high school.

      *laugh* Well, that part was a joke. But, I've long since given up on trying to correct non-technical people on some of these nuances -- it rarely serves any purpose, and sometimes gets really bad reactions.

      And besides, if they piss me off, who's going to fix their computers and show them how to use them?
      *laugh* I more or less told my parents when they got their first computer, that they were on their own for that. I live too far away to try to do such things remotely. Generally, I try to dissuade people from using me for tech support. :-P

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    30. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Generally, I try to dissuade people from using me for tech support

      I've found that it actually is beneficial to me. I have no desire to work on automobiles, when I needed the rocker arm bushings replaced a mechanic I that drinks at that bar replaced them VERY cheaply, 1/3 of the price I'd had paid if I'd gone to the shop I've been having it serviced at. Of course, I still have to go there to get the wheels aligned.

    31. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Amongst nerds (which is pretty much whoever is following it on this site) - to 'hack' does not meant the same as 'to crack'.

      Yes it does. This isn't the 70s anymore.

      'Hack' now has multiple meanings of which are obvious in the context used.

      Old-school 'Hackers' don't get to decide what the meaning of the word is -- society does. The dictionaries do. You can rail against it as much as you want; that's your choice, but it makes you seem out of touch.

    32. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been using the term "cracker" for a very long time. It usually was in reference to a wafer thin baked soda biscuit.

    33. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I prefer Macktivism: the promotion of Mackin'.
      AKA pron.

    34. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by MikShapi · · Score: 1

      Hacker (noun): One who makes furniture with an axe.

      --
      -
    35. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by kaffiene · · Score: 1

      Thank you for voicing one of my pet peeves. The crack / hack distinction is very recent and no-one had problems with the term 'hack' the way it used to be used. Besides which, the fucking language does not belong to geeks and the rest of the English speaking world will call it whatever the fuck they like despite what some pimply-assed nerd on Slashdot thinks.

    36. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by kaffiene · · Score: 1

      No it's not - it's quite elegant in that it expresses the idea of activism via electronic means in one word.

    37. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh Puh-Lease,
      Time to get over yourself. In your tirade, you committed the same fouls that you were decrying from the previous poster. Who are you to "own" the language as to define what a term means or doesn't mean?
      Truth be told, the term "cracker" has been in use just about as long as hacker. To give you a lesson on terminology, a "hacker" is someone who tickers around with a problem or hacks at it until the problem is figured out and resolved, this usage started when people had to construct their own computer, themselves, generally in their garage. Before the "age of computers", "hackers" were typified by the generally accepted term of gearheads.Once computers started becoming more prevalent and software became as important if not, then more so, than hardware, people started tinkering around with coding problems. People who cracked the code to figure out the problem to get access became crackers. So, yes, a cracker is a newer term, only by a matter of a few years. Get off your horse and take your medication.
      As to any street cred, this is the internet, buddy. We are anonymous. The only name is what you make for yourself. The players in the game already know each other and have their dungeons and caves for collaborating online. Nobody cares about "street cred" anymore. I don't care who you think you are, we only care about what you know and what you can do. You, obviously don't know what you are talking about. Your Appeal to Authority, is lack luster and careless, at best. You try to through your weight around like you are a big deal, but you really are just a neophyte because you have failed to keep up.
      Crackers are a subset of Hackers. Just as Phreaking is a subset of hacking. Germans are a subset of Europeans. Claiming that "it's all the same thing" is the excuse people use who are too lazy to say, do, or learn it right. If you don't want to learn and use the terminology correctly then you are at fault. No body is whining, you were merely being corrected. Did you bitch and whine when you're school teacher corrected you in front of the class? Or did you get upset because your feelings got hurt? Probably
      Just because you are old and unwilling to learn does not excuse a falsely justified contemptuous brush-off and sweeping generalization. Sure, you may be old enough to remember 1200 baud modems and used an acoustic coupler, and therefore you might know better. But if you don't follow the progress, you are stuck at 1200 while the industry has left you behind, yes you know better, enough to keep up or be left behind. I could make a mirrored sweeping generalization that you are as insignificant as the same acoustic coupler for said modem since you have failed to update your software due to degrading hardware. Thankfully, for you, Unix will still be around and available.
      Class dismissed.

    38. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      I also tried to explian that "hacking" was modifying a piece of hardware to do what it wasn't designed for (my favorite all time hack was the O2 scrubbers on the Apollo 13 mission, that was some excellent thinking)

      Your example doesn't quite fit the definition. Whilst that was excellent thinking for the Apollo 13 mission it was essentially making a scrubber out of... a scrubber. The stupidity that led to the problem in the first place was that instead of using one type of scrubber throughout, the CM scrubbers were square and the LEM scrubbers were round - truly a square-peg-in-a-round-hole problem.

    39. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by kmoser · · Score: 1

      "cracker" is a very recent word...

      You've never been to the southern United States, have you? But seriously, "cracker" as it applies to computers has been around for a long time ("long" being at least since the early 1980s).

    40. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by Haedrian · · Score: 1

      Not really. Not everyone uses the same Ontology. For society in general for example a "list" is more akin to a set (ex: a shopping list isn't much of a list - its more a set of object/integer pairs), however in formal maths its something else, in programming its something else...

      I'm just saying that since I would expect people here to use the computer nerd/hacker ontology.

    41. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      A "Hacker" is someone who enjoys tinkering with both hardware and software, trying to find new ways to push them to new limits, discovering new tricks and sharing them with like-minded people. The Hacker is a Jock, whose competitive and inquisitive mind pushes him to new heights, challenging the established mechanical status quo, someone who in the face of the loserboys who whine "it can't be done!" answers "Ha! See that!" and the proceeds to do what the loserboys thought impossible. Then he beats them up and shits on their faces.

      I think it's bedtime, you're acting up again.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    42. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The people who are program hackers today, would have been gearheads 60 years ago, constantly tweaking their engines for performance.

      More likely they would have been building high fidelity stereo systems and guitar amplifiers. Les Paul was a hacker!

      All I remember about hifi geeks from back in the day is that the value of their equipment was inversely proportional to their good taste in music.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    43. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I heard the word "cracker" in the 1960s. It referred to people breaking into safes.

      I hear the word "cracker" every Christmas at lunchtime, it's the container for a paper hat, a joke and a plastic toy.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    44. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I'd say sucessfully putting a square peg into a round hole and making it work WAS a hack, and a good one. It would be like making a Ford engine fit into a Chevy, or getting an X-Box to run Linux. Most likely the reason they had different scrubbers was that a different team probably designed the lander than the team that designed the capsule.

      That mission had lots of good hacks, like using the Lunar Lander as a return vehicle. Who could have forseen that this would occur?

    45. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I don't know, a friend of mine at the time who I worked with at the drive-in theater built a very impressive tube amp; he was heavily into classical music, as were most of the hifi nerds I knew.

      Me, I was into rock and roll. Fuzzboxes were very expensive then, I'd take ten dollar transistor radios and two dollars worth of parts and hack them into fuzzboxes, and sell 'em fof fifty bucks each, 1/4th the price you'd pay at a music store.

    46. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by JockTroll · · Score: 1

      Don't make me reach for my day-glo frisbee, loserboy.

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
    47. Re:Can we PLEASE.... by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Actually maybe your just old and cranky.

      I'm well under 40, and I certainly remember reading the whole "Hacker Manifesto" downloaded as a text file off a BBS using a 2400 baud modem in the late 80's early 90's. I remember reading about the difference between Hackers and Crackers around the same time. Heck before MY time it was punch cards and certainly no internet. I can recall hitting 300 baud modems. Before that I would suggest "hacking" was what you did on a typewriter.

      That said I will agree, that the terms have morphed and do not have the same meaning anymore really. I mean there we also Phreaks back then as well. Which was really just an economical way to access all those long distance modems (there being no real "internet" as we commonly know it today). The closest thing to a Phreak these days would be someone unlocking an iPhone or something. Which incidentally is more akin to Cracking than Hacking. Anyway the definitions were all pretty idealistic to begin with. Not to mention the media latching onto "hacking" as the go to term to use in all instances anyway. One was supposed to be all about freedom of information and access and figuring out solutions to interesting problems. The other was doing pretty much the exact same thing, but for malicious intent. We are still discussing this morality even today, look at the whole wikileaks thing. Perfect example. Which doesn't surprise me that it gets the types of people that like to fix into those hacker/cracker roles all riled up. Perhaps you don't realize is the that people involved with 2600 may not have wanted to be associated with the term "cracker" either, as a reason why they always talk about hacking. Though I find it hard to believe they never wrote anything explaining the difference considering their outlook and clients. I mean they have been having that discussion for decades now. Hell Google's pronouncement years ago "Do no evil" fits the same pattern of discourse.

      Anyway the discussion is not stupid, and the term cracker certainly isn't recent unless you are a 900 year old Yoda and are trying to keep it in perspective.

  3. this is what I get for reading the article.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    slashvertisement much? terrible article that doesn't say anything about Operation Payback, just a wikipedia-esque definition of hacktivism.

    1. Re:this is what I get for reading the article.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "Operation Payback and hactivism 101" article reads like it was a homework assignment written for English 101. Mr Yosef should really get some help when writing any future articles.

  4. For further explanation of this concept by digitaldc · · Score: 4, Informative

    The DDOS Wikipedia Entry is much more informative than this article, I would suggest reading it instead.

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
    1. Re:For further explanation of this concept by socsoc · · Score: 1

      It's a really poor article and is obvious to most people reading this site. It mentions nothing of Operation Payback prior to the most recent WikiLeaks nonsense. Which from what I've read, pretty much splintered them into factions and killed the basic idea.

    2. Re:For further explanation of this concept by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      Wikianswers is more informative than TFA. I'm glad most people don't read TFAs, because this one is a complete waste of time.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
  5. It is Not DDoS by arthurpaliden · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It is not DDoS or cyber-war it is cyber-picketing. It used to be that when you had a disagreement with a company people picked it and disrupted its business that way. Well, welcome to the 21 century you can now picket the business from the comfort of your own home.

    1. Re:It is Not DDoS by Ephemeriis · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It is not DDoS or cyber-war it is cyber-picketing.

      It used to be that when you had a disagreement with a company people picked it and disrupted its business that way. Well, welcome to the 21 century you can now picket the business from the comfort of your own home.

      Interesting. Though I loathe the "cyber" prefix... That doesn't seem like a completely inaccurate description. Hadn't thought of it that way.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    2. Re:It is Not DDoS by pspahn · · Score: 1

      It's still a bit of both, as this DoS is preventing people from ignoring picketers. Forced boycott would maybe be more appropriate.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    3. Re:It is Not DDoS by AlexiaDeath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Completely accurate definition. Calling simple request swamping hacking, cracking, cyber-war or any other alarmist title is bullshit. Nobody is breaking into the systems, they are simply utilized beyond their capacity to serve, and that happens because enough people band together to cause the disruption... Witch is in turn caused by company's actions.

    4. Re:It is Not DDoS by Sockatume · · Score: 0

      Actually, it is DDoS. Those letters have a meaning, you know. It's not a pejorative word. Real-world picketing could equally be called a denial of service attack.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    5. Re:It is Not DDoS by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

      It is not an 'attack' it is an 'event'. As is a 'denial of service event'. Nothing is being attacked, nothing is being destrioied.

    6. Re:It is Not DDoS by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      I really mean in the information security sense of the word "attack", something along the lines of "an aggressive action on the system in question". It's a word with a very varied and somewhat loaded meaning. It is a DDoS though.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    7. Re:It is Not DDoS by Boomerang+Fish · · Score: 0

      While I like the term "cyber-picketing" better than "hacktivism" (that word just sounds stupid, period), I think I must point out at least a slight difference from traditional picketing...

      Picketers perform what is (usually) non-violent interference, but the individuals involved are not hiding... if they do cross the line to violent activity (assaulting people who wish to break the line, damaging property, etc.) they can and are arrested, usually as individuals, unless it reaches potential riot proportions.

      "Cyber-picketers" sit behind a wall of more or less anonymity, often using hundreds or thousands of OTHER PEOPLE'S COMPUTERS to distance their person from the activity... so when they cross the line of illegality (and in all honesty, using someone else's computer for purposes they do not know about or have not agreed to is illegal in most places) who can be removed to return it to a "peaceful" protest?

      --
      I drank what?

    8. Re:It is Not DDoS by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It is not DDoS or cyber-war it is cyber-picketing. It used to be that when you had a disagreement with a company people picked it and disrupted its business that way. Well, welcome to the 21 century you can now picket the business from the comfort of your own home.

      When you're picketing, staging a sit-in, etc you're putting yourself at some risk. At minimum, there's the risk of recognition, of having your name and face associated with your action. You're also taking some of your time and energy to do something that's of value to you.

      For a DDOS attack, you're anonymously pushing a "go" button. Quite possibly you're not even still at your computer while it runs. Woooo, there's a way to make a statement.

      The nature of the attack itself strips it of both credibility and value - instead, it gets classified (by those who even notice it) as whiny children playing their whiny child games.

    9. Re:It is Not DDoS by Abcd1234 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, what, every other DDoS wasn't an 'attack", it was an "event"?

      Bullshit.

      You just don't like the idea that something you happen to support *this time* is being referred to with *accurate*, pejorative terminology.

      Well, suck it up, bucko. Your little wannabe-robinhood friends are nothing more than digital gangsters (actually, that's not fair... gangsters have worked hard to build a reputation for themselves, and it's hardly fair to equate them with a bunch of punk script kiddies), and what they're doing is *attacking* websites in a fit of whiny vigilantism.

      Now, that's not to say they don't have legitimate grievances. But what they're doing has been called a "distributed denial of service attack" long before these little bastards decided to use it against VISA.

    10. Re:It is Not DDoS by cjnichol · · Score: 2

      It would be disruptive-picketing actually (according to Wikipedia). Regular old picketing still provides you with the choice of crossing the picket-line.

    11. Re:It is Not DDoS by Duradin · · Score: 1

      More like cyber-thuggery.

    12. Re:It is Not DDoS by cjnichol · · Score: 1

      The ability of certain companies to conduct business is being destroyed.

    13. Re:It is Not DDoS by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      I got into an argument about this is an earlier topic pointing out that it is also, strictly speaking, non-violent.

      it's dickish but it is different from most of the other various forms of attack, a DDoS doesn't involve actually breaking into any systems, it doesn't damage any property and it doesn't hurt anyone.

      In a sense it probably shouldn't be lumped in with most other forms of attack online which mostly involve breaking into the system in question or attempting to.

    14. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      perhaps it'd be better to consider it a counter sit in. In the past, people have been known to stage sit ins to take up seats that paying customers would normally take, making it difficult if not impossible for a business owner to ignore the protest.

    15. Re:It is Not DDoS by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2

      It is not DDoS or cyber-war it is cyber-picketing. It used to be that when you had a disagreement with a company people picked it and disrupted its business that way.

      Bullshit.

      No picketer ever stopped someone from entering a store. Such an action would be an arrestable offence, as it would involve, at minimum, the physical assault of prospective customers, and probably trespass.

      The point of picketing isn't about physically preventing people from patronizing the business in question. It's to raise awareness so that customers might *choose* to do business elsewhere.

      But I suppose it does make what amounts to vigilantism seem a little more palatable if you equate it to a legitimate protesting method.

    16. Re:It is Not DDoS by Ephemeriis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Cyber-picketers" sit behind a wall of more or less anonymity

      Which is necessary because any attempt at cyber-picketing, peaceful or not, is deemed a crime.

      often using hundreds or thousands of OTHER PEOPLE'S COMPUTERS to distance their person from the activity

      Which is bad. But in the case of this LOIC client, the computers doing the DDOSing are not zombies. They're people who've decided to throw their computer into the picket line.

      It really seems to me that this kind of voluntary DDOS is a fairly accurate digital version of the picket line. I mean, how exactly would you picket Amazon anyway? Line up a bunch of people outside their warehouses or something? It isn't like they've got a physical storefront to picket in front of.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    17. Re:It is Not DDoS by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      Maybe a cyber-sit-in would be more accurate though. Generally picketers let people into the business, it's just that every potential customer has to walk through the picket line, get shouted at, read the signs, etc. Sit-ins actually attempt to block the business from servicing customers, they're also a bit more shady on the legal side (just like a DDoS). The sit-in analogy also has the benefit of reminding the participants that what they're doing may very well get them in trouble, people who did sit-ins during the civil rights movement were often arrested (and for that matter, beaten).

      Of course, sit-ins were usually done by people whom the establishment wouldn't serve, which is kind of what makes it poetic justice; the people sitting in are just waiting to be served. Maybe if the people involved in the DDoS were ready and willing to donate to Wikileaks (which I highly doubt) I would see it as more appropriate behavior.

    18. Re:It is Not DDoS by kellyb9 · · Score: 1

      I disagree. While picketing would slow down business, DDoS stops business altogether. To me, its the equivalent of standing in front of a store entrance and not allowing anyone in. Last I checked, you'd probably get arrested for that.

    19. Re:It is Not DDoS by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      An important nuance, thanks.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    20. Re:It is Not DDoS by DogDude · · Score: 1

      "The nature of the attack itself strips it of both credibility and value - instead, it gets classified (by those who even notice it) as whiny children playing their whiny child games."

      So what's the alternative? Should we politely write our Congresspeople, asking them to please tell us all of the secret, illegal things they're doing with our money? Should we simply be happy with our rigged system and pretend like we make a difference when we vote?

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    21. Re:It is Not DDoS by DriedClexler · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wait, wasn't there just a slashdot story showing how the pro-Wikileaks "hacktivists" can be easily identified? If so, it seems they actually are putting themselves at risk.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    22. Re:It is Not DDoS by Boomerang+Fish · · Score: 1

      Ok, I'll admit to not having read the article or much of the details... if it was a "opt in" kind of thing, then I would agree... picketing is probably the best "real world" like example.

      I was speaking more generically about DDOS attacks when some pissed off group claims responsibility and tries to wrap themselves in a cloak of righteousness.

      --
      I drank what?

    23. Re:It is Not DDoS by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      When a company says a DDoS attack caused $x million in damage, what they really mean is it caused $x million in lost business as customers decided against impulse purchases or grew impatient and went to a competitor.

    24. Re:It is Not DDoS by Duradin · · Score: 1

      You might want to look into the Freedom of Information Act.

      It's where we, the people, politely ask our government to tell us their secrets.

      Is the winning touchdown/goal/whatever really the *winning* one since any other the others that preceded it were necessary to achieve the win? Your vote *is* insignificant. Your vote combine with all the other similar is less so. Is your one vote ever likely going to change the system on its own? No. And that's the point. Your vote along with all the others is what matter.

    25. Re:It is Not DDoS by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      "No picketer ever stopped someone from entering a store."
      I'm sure some have. It's just a matter of having a dense enough crowd. There is also the sit-in method, where protestors just loiter around a business in order to make it too inconvenient to use - eg, by occupying every seat at a restraunt and asking only for water, or continually buying things at a store and paying very slowly in 1c coins which must be individually counted until the queue time becomes unacceptably long.

    26. Re:It is Not DDoS by bsDaemon · · Score: 2

      Their targets have fat pipes the bandwidth of which these attackers probably can't really fathom, and thus their ability to limit service is somewhat limited. However, having worked in system/network administration positions where i've had to help colocated customers defend against attacks, I will tell you that smaller merchants or other online presences can easily be flooded by these attacks and that it does cost them money and time, and cost us lots of time trying to do our level best to keep them online despite the bullshit (could we have just set null routes to prevent the attack? yes... but then the customer would basically be offline anyway, so what's the point?).

      I've seen disks fail due to increased IO just off of legitimate traffic, so I have no problem believing that it could be caused by people with malicious intent. I get the feeling that people think that because its online that its somehow OK, but if people decided to just get together a mob of cars to circle the block to the point where no one could get in or out of parking lots/driveways, would that be OK? It's not breaking windows, but it's definitely going to fuck things up for people who have legitimate business to transact, or who live in the area and now can't get home or out from their house.

      Its not cute or funny, its not magically OK because its "for a good cause," etc. In fact, its likely less OK because while picketers (the gp's metaphore) stick to public sidewalks or roads, where as in this case they're traversing private networks and sucking up metered resources, thus costing real money in addition to just attempting to prevent people from getting into the store/office/facility/whatever.

      Just because its not the most direct or violent action they could take (some digital equivalent of breaking windows or throwing petrol bombs) doesn't make it OK. Its different from union members picketing a shop that's treating them poorly or occupied people fighting against an occupying force. I'd suspect that nearly all of the participants, if they were to attempt to sue in court, would have their case dismissed due to lack of standing: inability to show that they themselves have suffered harm due to the actions of these target companies.

      The attackers don't have to take any substantial risk to themselves, so its easy for people who really don't care and are just looking for an excuse to get involved, and their participation can be automated so they can still throw in their batch of gets and syns while they're asleep in study hall, and the targets basically have unlimited financial resources and the sympathy of the government. This could go on forever and no one has to back down, which is why ultimately its going to be highly ineffective while just helping those who have the most to gain from discrediting wikileaks make their case.

    27. Re:It is Not DDoS by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      You might very well - but it's also another technique widely seen as a form of legitimate protest, even if illegal. During the civil rights movement many campaigners were arrested for exactly that, obstructing access to businesses with a 'whites only' policy - and, while they were arrested at the time, they would be seen as heroes today.

    28. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice of you to bend over and take it from the big corporations, Abcd1234.

      Better to be a wannabe Robin Hood than a compliant drone too scared to say boo to a goose.

    29. Re:It is Not DDoS by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

      the flood of traffic that comes in because of Slashdot or Digg is an event, due to people actually wanting to read the article (most of those people apparently don't post though, it would seem). The difference between this and a slashdotting is the intent behind the request storm, and by every definition in use this counts as an attack, and that doesn't change just because you have sympathy for the expressed cause de guerre.

    30. Re:It is Not DDoS by DogDude · · Score: 1

      "You might want to look into the Freedom of Information Act. It's where we, the people, politely ask our government to tell us their secrets."

      ... and they tell us "you aren't authorized to have that information".

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    31. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not DDoS or cyber-war it is cyber-picketing...

      Right. That's a lame attempt at Orwellian doublespeak.

      If the attackers prevented legitimate users from accessing these sites, then that is is 'Denial of Service'.

    32. Re:It is Not DDoS by Steauengeglase · · Score: 2

      A herd of cats are incapable of organized crime.

    33. Re:It is Not DDoS by capnchicken · · Score: 2

      Given all of the articles saying that the anonymous attacks aren't very anonymous, they are exposing their digital faces. They are putting themselves at risk. There are real consequences involved.

      --
      A libertarian shat on my carpet once. Claimed the free market would sort it out. -Ford Prefect(8777)
    34. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with your comparison is that picketing still allows a customer to enter the business, even if it is inconvenient for them. A DDoS attack effectively prevents any customer from using the target to conduct business. The impact on business is potentially much larger with a DDoS. And almost no effort is required on the part of the script user.

      This leads to a situation where a very small number of people can mount "protests" that appear to have wide spread support, when in fact they may not. Very similiar in my opinion to what Assange has done with Wikileaks. A very small group of people determine what information should be leaked and when it should be leaked. This setup allows someone with an agenda to gain the perception of public support.

    35. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I take it you never tried to cross a Teamster picket line.

      Or even a UAW line.

      Many forms of protest are called vigilantism by those that don't like it.

      You have got to be one the biggest pro-establishment trolls I've ever seen on here.

    36. Re:It is Not DDoS by Pyrion · · Score: 1

      With FOIA requests, don't we have to have some prior insight for the sake of specificity? That limits the range of the FOIA to things that have already been declassified for public consumption, since in principle, we should have no idea what to ask for if we haven't already been informed of it.

      --
      "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell.
    37. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but isn't a picketing action that is actually disrupting business activities different from one that is causing a disruption via peer pressure? I.e., it's one thing for people to stage a demonstration, yell at customers to stop supporting the business, etc., but once the picketers start preventing access to the business, blocking or disabling doors, etc., I believe things have just become illegal, no?

    38. Re:It is Not DDoS by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      But the traffic is not comprised of legitimate service requests. It is comprised of requests intended only to consume resources in order to prevent the company from receiving legitimate service requests.

      It's not really like picketing, where demonstrators are usually standing on on a piece public property and not actively consuming their target's resources. A better analogy would be to continually autodial their phone lines to prevent legitimate service calls from connecting, which at best is harassment.

      You are absolutely correct that this is not hacking, cracking, or cyber terror. But you were also correct in labeling it as a disruption. An intentional sustained disruption intended to prevent the company's network from doing whatever it is that the company wants it to do. It's certainly not cyber-terror, but a reasonable person certainly could not label this as benign behavior.

      We're not savages for gods sake. We have a justice system in place specifically for the resolution of grievances. This kind of snarky mob justice is ridiculous.

    39. Re:It is Not DDoS by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      Enjoy yourself out there on Douchebag Island. You should really consider your personal values if your only response to a situation like this is to resort to anonymous mob justice. That kind of attitude is destructive.

      Societies have laws to regulate how people interact with each other, and justice systems to allow resolution of disagreements. Resorting to this kind of vigilantism is childish and completely unproductive.

      Do you really think vigilantism and total submission are the only two options? And do you really think this DDoS Attack on Visa is going to have any impact on how the US Government treats Wikileaks?

      Nice of you to bend over and take it from the big corporations, Abcd1234.

      And are you really trying to shame the GP by calling him out publicly, while posting as AC?

    40. Re:It is Not DDoS by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      I take it you never tried to cross a Teamster picket line.

      Or even a UAW line.

      Many forms of protest are called vigilantism by those that don't like it.

      If those picketers are accosting people and preventing them from moving freely, then yes, they're vigilantes.

      Once again, they may have legitimate grievances. But that doesn't make their actions any more legitimate or honourable.

      You have got to be one the biggest pro-establishment trolls I've ever seen on here.

      Hint (and this is for moderators, too): Troll != I disagree with you.

      Don't like what I have to say? Refute it. Or fuck off. Your choice.

    41. Re:It is Not DDoS by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      So you've tried this, yes?

      I'm assuming that you (the figurative you, not actually you personally) have exhausted your options for legal and responsible conflict resolution before resorting to mob justice. Or are you the type that prefers to sit in Mom's basement firing off snarky political comments on the internet and call it activism?

      Because if you haven't at least attempted to seek responsible resolution, you're little better than a kid on playground that prefers the "he-started-it" method of conflict resolution (again the figurative you, because I'm assuming you used the figurative us).

    42. Re:It is Not DDoS by amRadioHed · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No picketer ever stopped someone from entering a store. Such an action would be an arrestable offence, as it would involve, at minimum, the physical assault of prospective customers, and probably trespass...

      ...neither of which apply to the online equivalent.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    43. Re:It is Not DDoS by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      There are a variety of tools which could be described as “opt-in”. The LOIC (low-orbit ion cannon) is a stand-alone, but browser-based Javascript-driven tools have been created as well. Although simply flooding a server with incoming packets and ignoring responses (if any come back) is one way of overwhelming it, another tactic that may be used against smaller websites is downloading all of the images from its pages repeatedly, which can use up its monthly bandwidth or cause a tiered plan to jump to a more expensive tier. In fact, even ping can be used as a DDoS tool. (Simply pinging a host isn’t the most effective way to mount an attack, but if enough people are doing it the host can be overwhelmed.)

      Whether or not botnets are used to attack the same targets is anyone’s guess, but I’d place them in a much different category than anyone intentionally participating in the attack using only their own computer.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    44. Re:It is Not DDoS by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      We tend to want to absolve people whose causes we view as right. Civil rights protesters are seen as having broken the law for legitimate ethical purpose, but animal rights activists are seen by many as having broken the law for crazy extremists purposes.

      A distinction between civil rights activists and Anonymous is that civil rights leaders would use their prosecution(persecution?) to publicize their situation. Anonymous is a bunch of cranky kids looking to have some fun that latched onto this "fight the power" mentality. I'm willing to bet that most of them carry a Visa powered debit card.

      I'm long winded, but what I'm saying is that when we look back on causes that we agree with we tend to attribute their behavior as being morally justified. And in my opinion this kind of protest is an ethically and morally legitimate form of protest ...for those willing to face the legal consequences of their behaviors.

    45. Re:It is Not DDoS by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      The question is, is the “distributed” nature caused by thousands of zombie machines controlled by only a few hackers, or is it a distributed network of thousands of real people who are staging the protest?

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    46. Re:It is Not DDoS by gknoy · · Score: 1

      No picketer ever stopped someone from entering a store. Such an action would be an arrestable offence, as it would involve, at minimum, the physical assault of prospective customers, and probably trespass.

      What if you were to somehow build a temporary (yet durable) wall around the complete perimeter of the business? That would neither assault customers nor tresspass on the business's property. I'm not saying people have done that, but it seems theoretically possible to prevent someone from entering a business without assault or tresspass. It's probably still illegal to do that, I bet.

    47. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well we could consider the fact that selling stuff online (instead of in-store) also has advantages that selling in a store does not.

      If a customer shows up at a store and finds the doors blocked by protesters, he may not be able to come back the next day when the protesters are gone.
      Shopping online can be done almost anywhere and is far less time-consuming, so customers can easily return 3 days later, when the DoS on the website is over.

      Overall, a company loses more sales if their stores are completely blocked than if their website is down. Which is why you can't really compare the two (store vs. website) when discussing what the penalty for blocking both should be.

      Consider also the benefits to the public - protesters blocking a sidewalk inconvenience everyone walking there, not just those who wish to enter the store they are protesting against. There is "collateral damage".
      A DoS on the other hand only disturbs customers who wish to buy from the targeted website, there is no "collateral damage". A DoS may hit a company harder than a picket, but the public will be less inconvenienced by a DoS. This brings the question: Why should the interests of a company come before those of the public?

    48. Re:It is Not DDoS by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      For a DDOS attack, you're anonymously pushing a "go" button.

      It’s rarely truly anonymous, or as anonymous as it needs to be (since, after all, people have been found and arrested for it).

      Quite possibly you're not even still at your computer while it runs.

      You paid for the computer, you’re paying for its internet connection, and you’re paying for the electricity to run it.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    49. Re:It is Not DDoS by Eil · · Score: 1

      It is not DDoS or cyber-war it is cyber-picketing.

      I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but such a comparison really doesn't hold. In the real world, you can protest or picket in any public space near the organization which you oppose. But you're not allowed to block physical access to the organization.

      When you DDoS a site, that's blocking access. It's right there in the acronym: "Denial of Service". Whether you agree or disagree with Anonymous' methods, wilfully participating in a DDoS is illegal in most places.

    50. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you really want to bring up the notion of "Legitimate service requests" because that's a can of worms.

      Is it a legitimate service request if you accidentally close your browser window and connect to the website again? You're making a request that you would not have needed to make if you had been careful (and clumsiness is not a defense in court).
      Is it a legitimate service request if you visit the same website several times a day because you keep closing the window when you're done, thinking you won't come back, but then decide to visit the website again?
      Is it a legitimate service request if you go to a new page, then back to the main page, then a new page, then the main page again, and so on? Shouldn't you open these pages in new tabs if you know you will come back to the main page?
      Is it a legitimate service request if you open the pages of 10 videos on youtube at once, and they load at the same time, but then you only have time to watch 1 video. You basically downloaded 9 videos for nothing, which is wasting Youtube's upload bandwidth.

      Try finding a definition of "Legitimate service request" that leaves no room for abuse of the concept.

      Perhaps it's more reasonable to consider that if enough people are angry at a company to be able to DoS their website, then their cause is probably not entirely without merit and should be considered the Internet equivalent of a protest or picket.
      Note that the idea that a cause that is supported by a large number of individuals must have some merit is not unreasonable. Switzerland for instance applies it - if you want to suggest a new law (or abolish an existing one) you need to get a few thousand people to sign a petition. If you can get the required number of signatures (I think only 10,000 and the entire population is 12-14 million), your idea is considered to have merit and all citizens are asked to vote on it.

    51. Re:It is Not DDoS by capnchicken · · Score: 1

      If those picketers are accosting people and preventing them from moving freely, then yes, they're vigilantes.

      No they have formed a picket line. Have you ever even seen one? Sitting there with signs doesn't do a whole lot of good all the time (though there are plenty where that's all that it amounts to), if there are high tensions, high stakes, and there are actual scabs crossing the line, then fuck yeah there is going to be people being accosted, mostly verbal, and no one is going to move freely in any sense of the word.

      What the people did in the civil rights movement was illegal.
      Pentagon papers. Was viewed as Illegal, tried for espionage.
      Holding unions. Criminal conspiracy.
      Revolutionary war. Illegal.

      A protest is useless if it doesn't actually cause a stir. Even Gandhi was arrested.

      Hint (and this is for moderators, too): Troll != I disagree with you.

      I too have legitimate doubts of your authenticity do to your blinding amounts of fascism, it's hard for me to fathom such idiocy.

      --
      A libertarian shat on my carpet once. Claimed the free market would sort it out. -Ford Prefect(8777)
    52. Re:It is Not DDoS by stdarg · · Score: 2

      Its not cute or funny, its not magically OK because its "for a good cause," etc.

      It doesn't have to be cute or funny if it's a good cause. When government stops sticking up for some group of people, the people start sticking up for themselves.

      I'm glad they are doing meaningful protests like taking the exact websites that they have problems with, and not trying to blow themselves up in Stockholm and take as many innocent people with them as possible.

      Just because its not the most direct or violent action they could take (some digital equivalent of breaking windows or throwing petrol bombs) doesn't make it OK.

      But the lesson being learned by new generations is that the government basically doesn't give a crap about you, and is only concerned when confronted with violence. We negotiate with the Taliban, we sit at the table and talk with Iran and try to bribe them into not making nuclear bombs... if you're a citizen at home doing a completely non-violent online protest and you've never committed a violent crime in your life, you get thrown in jail. They just aren't scared of you. And other young people don't vote. So..

    53. Re:It is Not DDoS by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      It'll die soon enough as the teenagers lose interest.

      But the thing you're missing is that even a protest in person has effects on the local businesses.
      As hordes of protesters jam the streets small retailers loose business as people stay away from the protest and blameless business owners suffer.

      As I said, a DDoS is a dick move and it can cause the parties in question or blameless third parties to lose business but that doesn't make it violent.
      It does discourage hosting providers from dealing with organisations who attract a lot of DDoS attacks and encourage businesses to move to hosts who don't carry those who attract a lot of DDoS attacks.

      It does get public attention for the issue which is the greater point of any form of protest.
      the DDoS attacks lead to the story getting even more time on the front pages around here.

      Its not cute or funny and neither is a regular protest walking down the street with signs.
      it's not supposed to be cute or funny.

      "but if people decided to just get together a mob of cars to circle the block"

      Truck drivers did pretty much that a few years ago here to protest some changes the government were making going round and round a small part of the city causing significant traffic congestion and generally inconveniencing a lot of people yet it was still a legitimate protest.

      I'd suspect that nearly all of the participants, if they were to attempt to sue in court, would have their case dismissed due to lack of standing: inability to show that they themselves have suffered harm due to the actions of these target companies.

      since when did that have anything whatsoever to your right to protest something?
      I would have no standing to sue the government over censorship of the press yet I still have every right to pick up a sign and picket city hall about it.

    54. Re:It is Not DDoS by stdarg · · Score: 1

      It's not really like picketing, where demonstrators are usually standing on on a piece public property and not actively consuming their target's resources. A better analogy would be to continually autodial their phone lines to prevent legitimate service calls from connecting, which at best is harassment.

      One person isn't going to bring down Amazon or Paypal so how can you compare it to an autodialer against someone with only one phone line?

      Imagine if there was a really obnoxious person who thousands of people spontaneously disliked, all at once. And each one, without an autodialer, called just a few times a day to ask the person to stop being obnoxious. Is that/should that be illegal?

      We're not savages for gods sake. We have a justice system in place specifically for the resolution of grievances. This kind of snarky mob justice is ridiculous.

      We are savages. And the justice system is often behind the times. But more importantly, the justice system is paralyzed today by logic and philosophy. Every action needs to be justified even if many people think it just makes sense. That can be good and bad.

    55. Re:It is Not DDoS by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      No they have formed a picket line. Have you ever even seen one? Sitting there with signs doesn't do a whole lot of good all the time (though there are plenty where that's all that it amounts to), if there are high tensions, high stakes, and there are actual scabs crossing the line, then fuck yeah there is going to be people being accosted, mostly verbal, and no one is going to move freely in any sense of the word.

      And guess what? That's exactly what a DDoS *isn't*. So the comparison sucks. Which was my *entire fucking point*.

      Christ, don't people read around here? I mean, really.

      A protest is useless if it doesn't actually cause a stir. Even Gandhi was arrested.

      LOLFR. Yeah, a bunch of random script kiddies bombarding a website from the comfort of their mothers' basements is exactly the same as Gandhi.

      I too have legitimate doubts of your authenticity do to your blinding amounts of fascism

      Do you even know what fascism is? Or do you just throw the term around 'cuz it sounds cool?

    56. Re:It is Not DDoS by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You might look at how much is redacted from documents returned by FOIA requests, and that's just what you're being permitted to see at all.

      Your vote is insignificant in general while vote fraud exists.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    57. Re:It is Not DDoS by capnchicken · · Score: 1

      And guess what? That's exactly what a DDoS *isn't*. So the comparison sucks. Which was my *entire fucking point*.

      I disagree, there are plenty of similarities. It just has become different, again, because when people put ".. with computers" on the end of something, it makes it completely different. Which is asinine.

      Do you even know what fascism is? Or do you just throw the term around 'cuz it sounds cool?

      You seemed to have an inordinate love for the state. But I'll retract that since I saw that last remark you made about doubting the authenticity that wiki leaks actually aided China and Saudi. You're just overly irritable to perceived bullshit.

      --
      A libertarian shat on my carpet once. Claimed the free market would sort it out. -Ford Prefect(8777)
    58. Re:It is Not DDoS by teh*fink · · Score: 1

      Imagine if there was a really obnoxious person who thousands of people spontaneously disliked, all at once. And each one, without an autodialer, called just a few times a day to ask the person to stop being obnoxious. Is that/should that be illegal?

      Interesting point. In fact, doesn't this happen all the time? For example, when activist groups organize 'call-ins' or 'fax-ins' to a company/congressman/government office, with the goal of both voicing their displeasure and jamming phone lines?

      --
      "I DARE you to make less sense!"
    59. Re:It is Not DDoS by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I doubt it. I imagine the only way you could do that would be to get a bunch of vans and park them touching each other on the roads around a building. And that's assuming a cop doesn't come along before you finish building the van-wall (when all vans would be touching and unable to move under their own power) and ask you to move.

      In some countries you might be able to do the same and claim it's a "mass accident," asking police to take hundreds of accident reports for a bunch of harmless bumper-taps, and legally get away with it.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    60. Re:It is Not DDoS by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      One person isn't going to bring down Amazon or Paypal so how can you compare it to an autodialer against someone with only one phone line?

      Imagine if there was a really obnoxious person who thousands of people spontaneously disliked, all at once. And each one, without an autodialer, called just a few times a day to ask the person to stop being obnoxious. Is that/should that be illegal?

      I guess part of the point I had conceptualized (but clearly didn't convey) was that all the protest analogies are imperfect. Neither picketing, sit-ins, or auto-dialing are perfectly analogous to what's happening. Though I think the auto-dialing analogy is the closest; consider all lines running into an Amazon call center being auto-dialed by a distributed community.

      And to answer your question, if those thousands of people are coordinating their activity with the intent of preventing the target from using their phone line, then yes I would say that that should be illegal. It may even actually be illegal, at the very least it seems like one of those things that "ought to be". If those thousands of people just happen to start picking up the phones then I wouldn't think so. But the distinction (IMO) is that the activity is coordinated and intentional.

    61. Re:It is Not DDoS by chispito · · Score: 0

      Yes, but they are still cowards who hide in crowds.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    62. Re:It is Not DDoS by wings · · Score: 1

      Nobody is breaking into the systems, they are simply utilized beyond their capacity to serve, and that happens because enough people band together to cause the disruption... Witch is in turn caused by company's actions.

      Sounds just like a slashdotting. :-)

      1) Website posts online article. (Company action)
      2) Article gets posted to Slashdot. (Organization of people)
      3) Disruption of service!

    63. Re:It is Not DDoS by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Well, welcome to the 21 century you can now picket the business from the comfort of your own home.

      And be arrested be in the comfort of your own home for "picketing". A distinction between them is that carrying signs and marching tends to be legal as long as yet let people through. DDOS, not so much.

      On Saturday, a second Dutch teenager was arrested for having been part of a cyberattack that targeted the Dutch Public Prosecutor's website. Experts warn of legal action against WikiLeaks supporters
       

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    64. Re:It is Not DDoS by AltairDusk · · Score: 1

      I've tried writing my Congressman before. All you get is a form letter that may or may not have something vaguely to do with the issue you wrote about. I don't know that the DDoS attacks constitute a viable alternative but then again, the legitimate options seem to be more of a farce than anything actually listened to.

    65. Re:It is Not DDoS by trollertron3000 · · Score: 0

      Yeah I tend to agree. They seem to be using a very unsophisticated, yet effective, DDoS. Just praise be to Jebus that real botnets have not been pulled off their full time job of swindling the Interweb for a second to crush a company.

      --
      Tiger Blooded Bi-Winning Machine
    66. Re:It is Not DDoS by Duradin · · Score: 1

      My singular vote is, and should be, insignificant in a properly functioning system.

    67. Re:It is Not DDoS by ojintoad · · Score: 1

      Your little wannabe-robinhood friends are nothing more than digital gangsters

      While I agree with the theme of your post, I still haven't heard of any script kiddies sending people to go sleep with the fishes.

    68. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean, how exactly would you picket Amazon anyway? Line up a bunch of people outside their warehouses or something? It isn't like they've got a physical storefront to picket in front of.

      Bedfordshire, just off Junction 12 of the M1. Anyone driving too slowly down the A5120 would cause a traffic-jam right past their depot.

    69. Re:It is Not DDoS by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      The problem here is that *everyone* views themself as rightous. Be they civil rights protesters, animal rights activists, or Anonymous members launching a DDoS.

    70. Re:It is Not DDoS by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "it doesn't damage any property"

      I've seen plenty of DDoS attacks fry substandard network hardware.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    71. Re:It is Not DDoS by hajus · · Score: 1

      Actually, I would call it a blockade.

    72. Re:It is Not DDoS by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      I don't know of any activists so cowardly that they hide behind anonymity. Well, there is a group that USED to organize anonymous protests, wearing masks and hoods when they marched, but I don't think anyone wants to be associated with them.

    73. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The methods are different but the intent and outcome (ya know those things that laws are based upon) is the same and thus should be an illegal act.

    74. Re:It is Not DDoS by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Nice of you to bend over and take it from the big corporations, Abcd1234.

      Better to be a wannabe Robin Hood than a compliant drone too scared to say boo to a goose.

      You failed the argument.

    75. Re:It is Not DDoS by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      How much of what Wikileaks revealed was of "illegal actions" and how much of it was the "did you hear what X thinks of Y? Shocking!" bullshit suitable for celebrity gossip rags?

    76. Re:It is Not DDoS by MikShapi · · Score: 1

      .. so when 50 people cluster up to block a gate to a factory that is only 10-people-wide, causing disruption to the operation of the factory, it's an 'attack'?

      -please- get off the sensationalist/alarmist bandwagon where everyone insists on applying martial vocabulary to anything-wikileaks related, irrespective of which side you're on. A parking offense is not 'an attack on a street corner' or an 'attack on a municipality'. It's a parking offense.

      And this is activism. A protest.

      --
      -
    77. Re:It is Not DDoS by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      I think you would then be guilty of illegally detaining the people inside the business.

      Unless your barrier was only one way, in which case you'd probably have the money by selling your barrier technology to actually purchase the business and be done with the whole affair.

    78. Re:It is Not DDoS by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      If saturating the communication link causes a router to fry then that's simply a defective router.

      Wasn't there a story a while back about some graphics intensive games being blamed for graphics cards failing and people here were very quick to point out that the game should be able to demand whatever it wants but if the card burns out it's a defective card not a defective game?

    79. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A herd of cats are incapable of organized crime.

      Shows what you know. The ones 'round here are running a protection racket on the whole neighborhood. Why, just last week they busted up old Mrs. Dithers' birdbath 'cause she was a day late in putting out the cream and tuna.

    80. Re:It is Not DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      go suck a dick, aspie

    81. Re:It is Not DDoS by Grapplebeam · · Score: 1

      To be fair, they didn't start it, and they won't get to finish it. They don't have the money, or legal power that their enemies, say the RIAA, MPAA, or Scientology have. They're not gonna be able to take down Amazon, or Visa, or anyone else, and I'm fairly sure that was never the intention. I don't know if you work for Visa or something, but do remember that there really is no legal way to combat what is going on. Or when everyone else called for transparency, did you mumble something about how you didn't want it because you actually realized the implications of actually having it? I'd rather have freedom and be unsafe, than have no freedom and be unsafe because I have no freedom.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree.
    82. Re:It is Not DDoS by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      For a DDOS attack, you're anonymously pushing a "go" button.

      It’s rarely truly anonymous, or as anonymous as it needs to be (since, after all, people have been found and arrested for it).

      What, two people? Out of how many? So far, your chances of getting caught and identified are statistically insignficant.

      Quite possibly you're not even still at your computer while it runs.

      You paid for the computer, you’re paying for its internet connection, and you’re paying for the electricity to run it.

      And there's a comparison between this and getting off your ass and taking action in the real world ... where? I think I missed that step.

    83. Re:It is Not DDoS by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1
      So far, how many have been identified? Based on my (sometimes flawed) memory, the number in the past year can be counted on one hand. That doesn't add up to a whole lot of risk.

      Until people *are* identified, consistently and regularly -- and not just in theory -- there's no risk.

    84. Re:It is Not DDoS by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1
      How many people participated in the attack?

      How many people have been identified?

      I'm sorry, where's this "risk" you speak of?

    85. Re:It is Not DDoS by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      What, two people? Out of how many? So far, your chances of getting caught and identified are statistically insignficant.

      That’s because of statistics, not because of anonymity. It’s just strength in numbers.

      And there's a comparison between this and getting off your ass and taking action in the real world ... where? I think I missed that step.

      You must have missed the step where I have to get off my ass and take action in the real world every morning, or I won’t keep getting paid every other week. If I don’t keep getting paid every other week, I won’t have money to spend on a computer, the internet, and the electric bill.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    86. Re:It is Not DDoS by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      That’s because of statistics, not because of anonymity. It’s just strength in numbers.

      True, but the net result is the same.

      You must have missed the step where I have to get off my ass and take action in the real world every morning, or I won’t keep getting paid every other week. If I don’t keep getting paid every other week, I won’t have money to spend on a computer, the internet, and the electric bill.

      I see where you're going. But that's like saying that e-petitions should be effective merely because it cost you some resources to type your email address in.

      Let's also not forget that in all likelihood you're going to be using the nearly same resources anyway. "You" here referring to the collective: many people never turn their computers off; and if I may be so bold as to generalize... the people participating in this kind of activity will likely as not be torrenting files, participating in IRC chats, skype, IM, games, and otherwise consuming CPU and bandwidth.

      All of which goes to say - clicking a button on your screen is pretty close to the the weakest form of "participation" or "protest" possible, to the point where its value as such is questionable at best -- your additional $1.00 in electric costs for the month notwithstanding. Particularly in the context under discussion - where the majority people being affected by this "protest" will never be aware of why they're affected. (A sit-in or picket never leaves any doubt as to "why".)

    87. Re:It is Not DDoS by clone52431 · · Score: 1

      True, but the net result is the same.

      The real-life picketing, sit-ins, etc. rely on the same principle too, though. Strength in numbers. It’s not anonymity; they could single out any one scape-goat and snipe him or her.

      Or to put it in terms that would be more familiar to most here: Security by obscurity is no security at all. All it takes is one person who cares to single you out, and you’re no longer secure.

      Let's also not forget that in all likelihood you're going to be using the nearly same resources anyway. "You" here referring to the collective: many people never turn their computers off; and if I may be so bold as to generalize... the people participating in this kind of activity will likely as not be torrenting files, participating in IRC chats, skype, IM, games, and otherwise consuming CPU and bandwidth.

      Those resources, even if they are relatively cheap, could have just as easily been put to other use, however. SETI@home, for instance... yet you probably wouldn’t be so quick to discredit their value in that case.

      Particularly in the context under discussion - where the majority people being affected by this "protest" will never be aware of why they're affected. (A sit-in or picket never leaves any doubt as to "why".)

      I would hazard to guess that most of the people directly affected by Anonymous have a pretty good idea of why. It might not be something they can really do much about – their hand might be forced – it might just be business as usual. But they pissed off enough people for them to actually make a difference... it’s just another occupational hazard as far as corporations are concerned... it’s why they have huge PR departments.

      --
      Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
    88. Re:It is Not DDoS by Khyber · · Score: 1

      No, it may not be a defective router at all.

      I've seen load balancers physically BURN. The chipset casing was totally discolored, SMD contacts were gone.

      Feed it enough information that it can't handle, and if the cooling isn't up to par, it's dead hardware.

      Same principle for most laptops with their crappy heat design. Playing even Quake on this laptop runs the temps up to 90+C.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    89. Re:It is Not DDoS by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      which isn't a problem with quake.
      it's defective hardware or failing that improperly cooled hardware.

      A load balancer shouldn't physically BURN even if you feed it as many packets as it can accept. if it does burn then it's defective.

  6. Next Target: by WiglyWorm · · Score: 1, Informative

    Whomever coined the word "Hactivism" has a DDoS with their name on it, as far as I'm concerned. Hate, hate, hate, that word. It's neither hacking nor activism.

    1. Re:Next Target: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a culture where "sharing" copywritten music is considered activism it doesn't take much to get credibility.

    2. Re:Next Target: by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      A DDoS isn't hacking but it can be activism (and in this case I'd say it is). The "cyber-picketing" analogy is a good one: It's just the online equivalent of blocking people from entering a building to do business.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    3. Re:Next Target: by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      In a world without Don LaFontaine, one Anonymous Coward tries to take his place.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    4. Re:Next Target: by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      I dunno, all the activists I know at least have the courage to associate their identity with their actions rather than hiding behind anonymity.

    5. Re:Next Target: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it is activism in the same way sit ins are activism. It may be illegal, but that's often the case with protest movements.

      as for hacking, yes, you have a point.

    6. Re:Next Target: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. This is the near equivalent of throwing a Molotov from the anonymity of the crowd.

    7. Re:Next Target: by gknoy · · Score: 1

      And there are many more people who would love to hire other people to be Active for them. It's not financially lucrative enough that people do it (?), but in theory someone like you or I could pay money to We Sit For You Incorporated and they would sit on our behalf, while maintaining our anonymity.

    8. Re:Next Target: by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      Paying someone else to be your voice instead of speaking for yourself means that your time is more important than the cause you supposedly believe in. In doing as you suggest, you commit nothing and you risk nothing for what you claim to be your beliefs. It shows a lack of conviction and is in many aspects a cowardly act, especially if you then have the gall to compare yourself to protesters and activists who faced immediate beatings, social ostracism and jail time for their support.

    9. Re:Next Target: by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      I miss that guy. :-(
      Trailers have lost a bit of their luster.

  7. hm by MrShaggy · · Score: 1

    DDos attack = slashdot Effect.

    --
    I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them.
    1. Re:hm by Pyrion · · Score: 1

      The difference being the Slashdot effect is a genuine attempt to access the site (only for the server to croak from the sudden zergrush) whereas a DDoS attack is a deliberate attempt to prevent everyone from accessing the site.

      --
      "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell.
  8. Let's break the law by Enderandrew · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As advocates of Democracy and transparency, let's break the law and act in secret to take down big companies, which in turn hurts small businesses who use these payment services. Let's also inconvenience random shoppers. Let's create all kinds of random collateral damage to make a point about supporting transparency by supporting a completely secretive organization.

    Sorry, I'm not buying it.

    I was just at the Oklahoma City Bombing Memorial and museum. One of the more interesting aspects of it was that the people motivated to bomb the federal building (and kill infants in the nursery) were upset at the government. They felt the most effective way to change the government was a terrorist attack. The two responsible were caught. One will serve life in prison while the other was executed. They didn't change government, but they did forfeit their lives.

    Conversely, families of vicitms banded together, formed a group and went to Washington D.C. to ask for reform in how the death penalty is handled in federal cases. They felt the best way to support Democracy and affect change was to use Democracy itself.

    That is such a novel concept.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    1. Re:Let's break the law by orphiuchus · · Score: 1, Interesting

      These people don't have the attention span to actually do anything like that. They are just like the hippies who thought that sitting around, singing, and doing drugs instead of contributing to society would change things. Everybody wants a shortcut, the truth is that the best way to change things is through hard work within the system, only stepping out of it when that fails.

    2. Re:Let's break the law by NiceGeek · · Score: 1

      That won't go over with them, all you'll hear is them complaining that the "system doesn't work" even though they don't put in the effort to make it work.

    3. Re:Let's break the law by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Wow, you must really enjoy your job at Conglomo Marketing.
      Hurts small businesses... really. Are you telling me that people are so fickle that when they cant buy an item they say " screw it, I'm not buying it! Ohh look a different shiny! Gimmie gimmie new shiny!!!!!!"

      In reality they simply wait and buy it later, or contact he company and ask, "I cant buy your custom made beer goggle dispenser, what's up? I want to buy it."

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:Let's break the law by Ihmhi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Only the public websites of Visa, Mastercard, et al. are being hit. The actual functionality of their payment system has been untouched.

      It's a slap in the face without disrupting their actual business.

    5. Re:Let's break the law by DogDude · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "They felt the best way to support Democracy and affect change was to use Democracy itself. That is such a novel concept."

      More than novel, it's incredibly naive. How do you propose that actual people (not corporations) influence their government in any way? How are regular people going to open up our horribly, horribly corrupt government? Politely vote in our Coke/Pepsi elections, and ask them to please tell us all of the illegal and immoral things they've been doing in our name with our tax dollars?

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    6. Re:Let's break the law by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      api.paypal.com was a primary target, as was amazon.com, which would stop retail purchases.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    7. Re:Let's break the law by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      Reaching a government official and talking to them isn't nearly as impossible as you might imagine it is.

      I've talked to my Nebraska Representatives and Senators. I've also reached out to a State Senator to ask for Limited Liability laws to change.

      You suggest it is naive. Are you suggesting that Democracy is then broken and pointless? Then why bother fighting to try and preserve it in the first place?

      The people trying to take down api.paypal.com, visa.com, amazon.com, etc. were supposedly defending Democracy. That is naive.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    8. Re:Let's break the law by Duradin · · Score: 2

      If you think ours is the epitome of corrupt you should see some of the other governments people have put up with.

      Corrupt? Yes. (Redundant question. All politics are corrupt at some level). Horribly, horribly corrupt? Only if you ignore all the actually horribly, horribly corrupt governments out there.

    9. Re:Let's break the law by Xelios · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Tens of thousands of students in the UK put in the effort to make it work recently. They were out in freezing temperatures, protesting against legislation that would triple the tuition cap in the country. What did it get them? A new law that triples the tuition cap in the country, and a broken election pledge from the Liberal Democrats.

      --
      Murphey's fighting Occam, and we're in the stands.
    10. Re:Let's break the law by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      You might want to use some of those small business to buy a ticket on the Clue Train, because boy , do you ever need it.

    11. Re:Let's break the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Then change society. You don't need a university degree to do the jobs that ask for one these days. University is a cult, it should be regulated as one.

    12. Re:Let's break the law by kaiser423 · · Score: 1

      As advocates of Democracy and transparency, let's break the law and act in secret to take down big companies, which in turn hurts small businesses who use these payment services. Let's also inconvenience random shoppers. Let's create all kinds of random collateral damage to make a point about supporting transparency by supporting a completely secretive organization.

      Uh, they took down their public homepage. It didn't affect any credit card transactions in the least. No small business was hurt and no random shoppers were inconvenienced.

      I just love how, even on a tech site, taking down a webpage somehow means that their whole credit card system was failing. No transactions were harmed in any way.

    13. Re:Let's break the law by DogDude · · Score: 2

      I've talked to my Nebraska Representatives and Senators. I've also reached out to a State Senator to ask for Limited Liability laws to change.

      And how did that work out for you? Did you sit down to lunch with them and have a discussion? Did you write the bill for them to push through Congress? Anybody can "talk" to their representatives, but if you think that you, as an individual, has any clout at all if you're not giving them millions in "campaign contributions", you're incredibly naive. For all the good it did, you could have instead asked a doorknob to change whatever laws you disagreed with.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    14. Re:Let's break the law by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When people lose faith in democracy, they turn to violence. Right now a lot of people, espicially online, feel that they live in a society where corporations rule and people are regarded as nothing more than the consumers and employees that fuel them. Unless people can feel that they matter - that the government really will seriously listen to them - this is just going to continue.

    15. Re:Let's break the law by crabboy.com · · Score: 1

      You make an excellent point, sir. I'm surprised you weren't modded into oblivion for not towing the party line...

      --
      The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money
    16. Re:Let's break the law by Ragun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As advocates of Freedom and fairness, let's break the law and act in secret to take down the tea industry, which in turn hurts distributors who only transport tea. Let's also inconvenience random tea drinkers. Let's create all kinds of random collateral damage to make a point about supporting fairness by supporting the Boston Tea Party.*

      No one here would be OK with the taking of human life, true terrorism, but honestly, you almost have to cause collateral damage to be taken seriously.

      *No association with the modern conservative tea party.

    17. Re:Let's break the law by future+assassin · · Score: 1

      Well some people are willing to die or go to jail for a cause, some like you are willing to take it in the ass like a good citizen. Back in the early 80s in Poland my parents were in the Solidarity movements. Both of them, my other family members and tons of their friends where sent to jail (beaten to hell) for organizing anti gov rallies and making life hell for the communist gov. None of them that I know regret what they did and even though they were a small piece of the movement together they got things moving.

      --
      by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    18. Re:Let's break the law by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      I think it has worked out fairly well actually. I have sat down to have time with guys like Lee Terry. Hal Daub (former Congressman and mayor here in Omaha) has repeatedly made time to sit down with me. He also wrote a letter of recommendation to get my wife her job.

      The State Senator I talked to about the Limited Liability law called me back 3-4 times to discuss the issue, but wasn't able to get law changed becuase he hit term limits and left office. But he passed the issue on to his replacement. I'm still hoping to see the law changed.

      So many people assume that elected officials are unreachable that they never bother trying to contact them. That just means my voice is effectively that much louder as the one of the few who do reach out.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    19. Re:Let's break the law by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 1

      As advocates of Democracy and transparency, let's break the law and act in secret to take down big companies, which in turn hurts small businesses who use these payment services. Let's also inconvenience random shoppers. Let's create all kinds of random collateral damage to make a point about supporting transparency by supporting a completely secretive organization. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

      Don't try to harm the major corporations, because only the little people will end up getting hurt! Wait, where have I heard that before...

      --
      Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
    20. Re:Let's break the law by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Trying takes effort.

    21. Re:Let's break the law by Enderandrew · · Score: 2

      Touche.

      I'd say the only difference here is that the Boston Tea Party was such a shocking act of rebellion and caused such a financial impact that it couldn't be ignored.

      The other difference is that the colonials didn't have much choice given that they lived under a monarch.

      We live in a Democracy/Republic. Here politicians pay close attention to Gallup polls. Here, leaders can be voted out of office. Here, a legal protest can affect change.

      Protesters who annoy and inconvenience me don't convince me to side with them. Rather, by annoying me I am actually more likely to not support their cause.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    22. Re:Let's break the law by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      Lets compare apples to apples, shall we?

      Your parents supported freedom in the face of an oppressive Communist government. Kudos to them.

      Here we have Democracy and legal protest is a valid option. I didn't say they had no right to protest. I argued they should have chosen another means to make their protest rather than breaking the law and annoying people.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    23. Re:Let's break the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, the payment system would be down, if it was possible

    24. Re:Let's break the law by snspdaarf · · Score: 1

      Well, democracy does not make a promise that everyone will get what they want.

      --
      Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
    25. Re:Let's break the law by caladine · · Score: 2

      Protesting doesn't always work. It's not a novel concept. Doing things to break the law aren't going to get them what they want in this case either. You're not always going to get what you want, no matter how you try and get it.

      The reality of the situation is that UK's budget deficit in 2010 was almost 12% of GDP. Of course some things are going to get cut. I'm not sure why the students are so surprised. Budgets across the board in the UK are getting slashed. They can be pissed off all they want and protest to express their feelings, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, just that going out and breaking the law doesn't make anything better. It's a knee-jerk response that helps no one.

    26. Re:Let's break the law by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      That isn't necessarily true of all corporations, but taking out api.paypal.com does hurt countless small businesses who use the PayPal API to handle transactions.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    27. Re:Let's break the law by Solarch · · Score: 1

      I'm with you up to the point where "effort" and "protesting" became rioting.

    28. Re:Let's break the law by JockTroll · · Score: 1

      What democracy is the one where Big Money buys ALL of your representatives? What is "legal protest" for if it is ignored?

      --
      Geeks are so full of shit that "beating the crap out of them" takes a whole new meaning.
    29. Re:Let's break the law by trickyD1ck · · Score: 1

      "Put an effort" would be getting a (second) job, not waste time on begging for money.

    30. Re:Let's break the law by dwandy · · Score: 1

      While I will trust your account to be factually accurate in the events, it doesn't really tell the whole story.
      True, both parties (the bombers, and the victims group) wanted to make changes in law/government. But this leaves an important distinction out of the explanation.

      The bombers wanted laws that were not in line with those in power [*1] while the victims groups had goals that were not out of line (or directly in line!) with those in power [*2]. Make no mistake: if the victims groups interests had conflicted with Those In Power(tm) they would not have gotten anywhere either. At most, they would have obtained a cursory condolence law or other meaningless gesture to placate them.

      I'm not suggesting that this bombing should be condoned, but if the legal avenues of change have been exhausted or are compromised then expect people to start using Illegal Tactics [*3]. Of course some will use physical violence because anyone can do that. And this is the real danger with where we're going today: we've been successful in our Democracy because it has either actually worked, or it's worked well enough that people were happy that it was working. But as we approach Democracy Theater, expect more people to take matters into their own hands. I see several posts on this thread where people are in one manner or another stating that Democracy is dead, dying or corrupted; the powerful people/corporations rule instead.

      [*1] They wanted less power for the gvt; most notably gun control. The bombing itself was also a retaliation, which though true was also an attempt to change the gvt.
      [*2] They wanted additional victim rights, and part of what was done in their name was to pass additional laws (AEDPA, 1996) granting more government control over the population.
      [#3] Where "illegal tactics" gets redefined over time to encompass anyone who opposes those that make the laws. The phrase 'make xyz illegal and only criminal will do xyz' is somewhat cynical, but seems to have some truth to it.

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    31. Re:Let's break the law by amRadioHed · · Score: 2

      Democracy isn't pointless, but the American implementation of it most certainly is broken.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    32. Re:Let's break the law by moeinvt · · Score: 2

      The fact that you can TALK to one of your elected officials or one of their staffers doesn't mean they're listening. I've written hundreds of letters and e-mails and made dozens of phone calls to mine. I often get a response thanking me for my support of the position I was writing to them to oppose, or a polite "Thanks for sharing your opinion, I'll take it into consideration" response. Only ONCE in 20+ years of voting has a candidate of my choice been elected to national office, and that was a major case of "lesser of two evils".

      "Are you suggesting that Democracy is then broken and pointless?"

      The current "corporatocracy" is broken and pointless from the standpoint of an average citizen who isn't part of the well-connected elite. The rule of law has been utterly subverted, an obvious double standard exists in the justice system, The Constitution has been undermined or blatantly disregarded for as far back as I can remember, and the government continues to relentlessly accumulate power. I think fighting to restore our Constitutional Republic is well worth it, but the status quo is indeed pointless.

      This is uncharted territory. None of these "analogies" I'm hearing make any real sense in the current environment. The Founding Fathers were geniuses, but they couldn't have imagined a system where the government and the mainstream media could exert such a strangle-hold on the flow of information. They couldn't have imagined a system where a few large corporations (under coercion) could cut off a media outlet from its funding sources, or limit its access to publishing equipment.

      The most fundamental problem is that the central government is too powerful. There's no way that Amazon, Visa, PayPal and Mastercard all almost simultaneously decided to end their relationship with Wikileaks without extra-judicial government coercion. That's the scary part. When the government can "lean on" people or organizations to get them to toe the line when no law has been broken, and no court order has been issued, we're in dangerous territory. When people merely ACCUSED of "terrorism" can be imprisoned or killed without trial AND those terms are used by leaders in high office to describe Assange and Wikileaks, we're in trouble.

      I won't classify this "operation payback" as universally good or bad. Hard to blame the big companies for making a business decision when they're being strong-armed by Big Brother, but I'm glad to know there are people in the society who are righteously angry, and have more tools than "write to your elected officials" at their disposal.

    33. Re:Let's break the law by PraiseBob · · Score: 1

      Are you really comparing murdering children to making a webpage slow? Disrupting business is terrorism now?

      The US govt was hiding all sorts of nefarious deeds behind the clock of 'diplomacy'. This included things like murdering innocent people, selling children to warlord sex parties in Afghanistan, & kidnapping innocent foreigners. Do you really think slowing down a website is worse than those things?

      As much as I hate to admit it, the OKC bombers did change the government, just not the way they wanted. Do you really think the families could have banded together and changed the federal law in any way without the bombing?

      How many citizen action groups with no money or corporate backing, have ever gotten the laws changed? Can you name even a single one?

    34. Re:Let's break the law by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      But to be fair, making a decision against the wishes of a few tens of thousands of students doesn't necessarily mean that the system is broken. I don't know enough about UK domestic politics to lecture you on them, but isn't it possible that some greater good was served by raising the tuition cap? The system may well have worked just fine; but that doesn't mean that some people won't be disappointed from time to time.

    35. Re:Let's break the law by gknoy · · Score: 1

      That's interesting. Every time I've tried to contact a representative about some issue which they don't already support, I've gotten politely listened to by a lackey (er, assistant), and then nothing seems to come of it. How did you get to meet with them? ... on the other hand, as Duradin says below, trying takes effort, and I didn't try very hard to contact my representative. Next time I should think carefully about whether the issue warrants taking the time for an invitation to lunch and a nicely hand-written letter. (I wonder if calligraphy would be legible enough to get the message across, and unique enough to pique their interest...)

    36. Re:Let's break the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tl;dr

    37. Re:Let's break the law by Omestes · · Score: 1

      As advocates of Democracy and transparency, let's do nothing, which in turn does nothing.

      Your example doesn't work. I have no sympathy* for anyone who wants to allow the government to murder people for revenge, no matter how nasty these people are it puts us right in the same place they are. Revenge is not noble.

      Some of us think our government is to far gone for calm letter writing campaigns to make much of a difference. If you get every American together behind a cause and we're still going to be smaller, and less significant, than a massively wealthy and powerful multinational. Our government has made a habit of doing things against our wishes, or our interests, for a long time now. I doubt some people writing nice, polite, letters to their congress men is going to make a difference. They don't care about letters, they care about nice big fat checks, kickbacks, and cushy consulting jobs when they either get to old to be in government or finally get thrown out for being hypocritical corrupt bastards.

      I really don't care if grassroots activivists (or whatever jargon makes you happy) do, and I really don't care if I agree with their cause or not. The fact that there IS activists, people who care enough to do something, is worth all of the potential inconvenience. Hell, I think the Tea Party folks are mostly a bunch of misguided people who are mad at nothing, and completely blinded by an erroneous ideology, I think if they got their way America would be infinitely worse than it is even at its current sorry state; but I am still glad they are there. Groups of people speaking up against perceived injustice should always trump a couple percentage points of corporate profit, whether or whether not I agree with them.

      As long as no one is actually injured, then they should carry on freely and be celebrated, even if you don't like their cause.

      *obviously I have sympathy for the victims, but being a victim doesn't make you a saint.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    38. Re:Let's break the law by Omestes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      University is a cult, it should be regulated as one.

      Huh?

      I don't want to live in the world you embrace, where the least educated are the highest regarded. A little education is alway better than none. A little more education is always a little better than less. The pridefully uneducated are idiots and shouldn't be allowed to make decisions that impact anyone outside of themselves.

      Perhaps education is about more than employment (as written by a person who majored in philosophy, living with a woman with english and art degrees). The fact that university has become a glorified trade school is more troubling to me than... whatever your ranting about.

      There is no nobility in ignorance.

      Also... How the hell do you change society? Care to give us a guide book on that one? Generations change society, and in the mean time we just live with tyranny and injustice? Should we be mad at all those black protesters fighting for rights, since they wasted their time picketing and sitting in, and disrupting poor white people by sitting in the wrong section of buses and diners? They shouldn't have inconvenienced us, they should have changed society in a more polite way. You don't need to use the white man's bathroom, or sit at the front of buses to be successful anyways.

      Hell, I would be happy if the streets of my city were closed once a week for protests! It would mean we are doing something other than sitting on our ass talking about stupid. I would be happy even if I didn't agree with them.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    39. Re:Let's break the law by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Oh no! Some multi-million dollar political constructs didn't make as much money as they thought fair for a short period of time!

      I don't think I'll lose much sleep over that.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    40. Re:Let's break the law by Omestes · · Score: 1

      That argument doesn't make sense... Just because there are entities much worse, does not negate the problems with our own entity.

      You can't yell at me for killing one person, since there are people who kill a whole lot more!

      I think people are more worried about where we are going, and what we risk becoming, than what we currently are. We don't want to wake up one morning and realize that we are suddenly one of those "horribly, horribly, horribly corrupt governments out there"

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    41. Re:Let's break the law by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Calling our government "horribly, horribly corrupt" is nothing but hyperbolics that only serve the purpose of propping up the argument that nothing can be done short of revolution.

    42. Re:Let's break the law by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      As advocates of Democracy and transparency, let's break the law and act in secret to take down big companies, which in turn hurts small businesses who use these payment services. Let's also inconvenience random shoppers. Let's create all kinds of random collateral damage to make a point about supporting transparency by supporting a completely secretive organization.

      So in other words, let's use the tactics of the oppressors against them? The formulae for credit scores and insurance rates are the results of conspiracies to milk you of every possible dime, and they are closely-guarded secrets. These people don't care who they shit on in their quest for money, and the people who patronize them are Part Of The Problem. They actively aid the quest for money at the expense of all else.

      The rest of your entry is such blatant wanker propaganda it does not bear comment.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    43. Re:Let's break the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A Democracy is more than the majority ruling the minority. The basic premise for Democracy in fact is not that the majority should have it their way, but that the majority is less likely to be wrong because people are assumed to be intelligent and educated.

      A Democracy should look after each of it's members, even those who belong to the minority. For every person in a Democracy who breaks the law to defend their opinions or values, there is one person who feels they are not being represented and cared about. If it's only one person, we'll brush it off, but when it's thousands of people maybe we should start to care instead of telling them "Hey, there's more of us so STFU and do as we say".

      The people currently fighting copyright laws (whether they vote, like the Pirate Party, or use DoS attacks like Operation: Payback) feel that copyright laws are not what they want and are abusive. They're asking that the laws be changed and copyrights last only a few years (a maximum of 10 years). Currently, the laws are something like "Until death of the copyright holder + several decades". There is a huge difference between 10 years and a lifetime + 50 years. Assuming the majority wants the current copyright laws and the music industry did not bribe politicians for these laws, there still are a large number of people who absolutely hate the current laws but their opinion is completely ignored by the laws. Instead of forcing the opinion of the majority on them (lifetime + decades), we could make a compromise out of consideration for the (rather large) minority and limit copyright to 50 years.
      Compromising would bring a healthier system where people can't be oppressed just because they're the minority. All the different opinions would be represented, disagreement would not be so strong (i.e. not to the point of breaking the law because you feel ignored and oppressed) and we would be forced to convince people that our position is the right one instead of just going "Doesn't matter if we're right or wrong, we're the majority so we make the rules" - at least if we all more or less agree, nobody will be bothered by the laws that are adopted.

      Example: if you want copyrights to last a lifetime + 50 years you must convince those who want it to last only 10 years that you're right. If you succeed, you may get a minimum of [copyright = lifetime + 20 years]. But if you don't succeed, you'll only get [copyright = only 50 years.]

      Other countries don't make compromises between the majority and minority (and it's not always possible anyway), but they require that the majority can't be made of only 51% of the population, it needs to be well above (e.g. 75%).

      It all depends if we want a Democracy where the majority just has it's way (which really is more of a form of Tyranny than a form of Democracy), or if we prefer a Democracy where everyone is represented and taken into consideration (a true Democracy).

    44. Re:Let's break the law by DogDude · · Score: 1

      That's like saying a serial murder isn't all that bad, because he only killed 20 people, as opposed to another guy, who killed *30* people.

      Those are some pretty low standards, you're proposing. I guess that as long as we don't have gunfire in the streets, we shouldn't worry about it, because we're not as bad off as others, right?

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    45. Re:Let's break the law by DogDude · · Score: 1

      It's not hyperbolic. What else can be done, short of revolution?

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    46. Re:Let's break the law by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I never called our government "horribly, horribly corrupt". Our government is just, right now, somewhere between unreasonably corrupt and too corrupt. People (and I) worry that it is on the road towards "horribly, horribly corrupt", and would like to stop and reverse the trend before it hits the tragic finish.

      I'm not jumping on the revolution wagon (yet), we haven't gotten quite that bad yet. I think there might be other cures left still, but none of them are very simple.

      Though I would have nothing against a bunch of people trying to start one, if they could get enough people behind it, then perhaps it is time. As long as it is one of those rare revolutions that don't end in tyranny. That probably is the biggest thing I have against revolution, most of the people proclaiming it have worse ideas than what they want to fight against.

      I would really hate to be forced to live in either a Libertarian, christian, or socialist utopia against my will. They seem to be the ones screaming for it the most.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    47. Re:Let's break the law by Duradin · · Score: 1

      For you, nothing. You're a True Believer. Viva la revolucion.

    48. Re:Let's break the law by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      They are just like the hippies who thought that sitting around, singing, and doing drugs instead of contributing to society would change things.

      The Clean Air Act passed and you can now drive past a Monsanto plant without your lungs burning, the Clean Water Act passed and you can now actually swim in places that were hazardous, the Vietnam War ended, and Nixon resigned. How can you say that we DIDN'T change things, kid?

      GOML and read a little history.

    49. Re:Let's break the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot? HARDLY. A few is more like it. Even if it is 30K or 50K people actively contributing (which I doubt), this is what, less than .1% of the on-line population of the US?

    50. Re:Let's break the law by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      And they need that education too! Considering that they seemed to think Charles was somehow connected to the tuition hike.

    51. Re:Let's break the law by Unkyjar · · Score: 1

      If you find yourself having the time to watch it, this is a phenomenal illustrated lecture about Education. I think you'd find it informative and thought provoking whether or not you agree with the conclusions.

      RSA Animate - Changing Education Paradigms
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

    52. Re:Let's break the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I know of at least one business affected by the DDoS - because Mastercard changed the IP of their payment gateways (presumably to beef up their hardware) and this particular business had the IP in a hosts file. Sigh.

    53. Re:Let's break the law by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Oh no! Some multi-million dollar political constructs didn't make as much money as they thought fair for a short period of time!

      Anndddd... the smaller businesses that rely on an amazon-based presence or folks who rely on payments through paypal (several of my friends are in that boat) are out of luck too, but hey, what's a little collateral damage when you're "sticking it to the man!"

    54. Re:Let's break the law by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I understand what your saying, and even sort of agree with it. But personally I think the risk of temporarily inconveniencing some small vendors is worth it. How else to you strike back at companies that only exist to facilitate money transfers? There really is no way around it.

      I really doubt, though, that Anon is causing anything much past a mild annoyance to anyone. Really this whole thing is geared more towards getting publicity than actually hurting anyone. And its working quite well.

      I don't understand the visceral hatred towards this... Perhaps its because I was raised by a bunch of uppity ex-hippies and union members who saw protest as a god-given right. I brought coffee to the last bunch of picketers I saw, even if I didn't really have any shared interest in what they were picketing, and they were being rather inconvenient to me and local businesses. They serve a vital function.

      Anon is a bit childish (but strangely sophisticated, actually grabbing a decent chunk of attention about something that the media around here has almost completely ignored). Its hard to really relate to the chans, or not hold /b/ with some level of contempt, but at least they see something wrong, and are doing something about it. That is admirable, and possibly worth whatever small amount of annoyance they incur.

      And really, if Anon is right, this is a bit bigger than people making a couple bucks. I don't know if it is or not, but I have no sympathy for Mastercard, Paypal, or Amazon, even if I do have some for the people caught in the middle of things.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    55. Re:Let's break the law by Zayne+S+Halsall · · Score: 1

      Not to play the grammar Nazi... and frankly not really interested in the parent of this thread... but for someone pontificating on the superiority of the educated (e.g. yourself) against the uneducated (e.g. myself), you surely highlight either the lack of language skills or attention to detail of the philosophy major with "... whatever your ranting about." [sic] :)

    56. Re:Let's break the law by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Or I highlight the fact that sometimes people make mistakes, or people don't heavily proofread throw-away forum posts enough. With that lesson learned, I will continue making mistakes and not proofreading silly forum posts enough.

      My original reply was "Holy shit! "He didn't use the right your (even if his point was clear)! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!" It might be more apt.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  9. Anon will rise again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People of the Interwebs, this wave of newfaggotry will be crushed under our merciless heels. I GUARANTEE IT.

  10. Hoodlums by NiceGeek · · Score: 2

    I find it interesting that some people on Slashdot consider them "freedom fighters" of a sort, trying to preserve freedom of speech, when some of the same group have actively tried to interfere with Tumblr and Facebook merely because they didn't like the kind of people who posted on them.

    As someone upthread said, these aren't freedom fighters, they're thugs. Just because their targets at the moment include businesses you don't like, doesn't make them less so.

    1. Re:Hoodlums by NuKe_MoNgOoSe · · Score: 1

      Its perception man really in all things.. Are rebels going against conformity, like those sympathizers who hid Jews from the Germans.. im sure the Germans believed these people to be hoodlums, at the very least, but the Jewish people who benefit from these peoples actions view them as freedom fighters, heroes for the cause. Much the same way these hoodlums have a cause and the supporters of that cause look at these people as their tool for justice, freedom fighters if you will.. Its a very extreme comparison but it does work at a rudimentary level.. The difference between punk and hero is subjective. I dont agree with hitting sites like PayPal and Mastercard because a lot of innocent parties are also affected by their actions, for me this would be the equivalent of blowing up a hospital to take out one man, too many innocent people to justify the action.

      --
      When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
    2. Re:Hoodlums by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      Why do you find it interesting?
      The same people talking about "freedom fighters" still have their Amazon wish lists, Visa and MasterCards sitting in their wallets, and are using PayPal to buy that limited edition anime they found on Ebay....
      It is simply typical arm chair protesters.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    3. Re:Hoodlums by DogDude · · Score: 2

      "As someone upthread said, these aren't freedom fighters, they're thugs."

      I'm fine with calling them thugs, if we can come up with some more colorful names for our Government/Business overlords that secretly do illegal and immoral things with our money in our names. To say that we, the powerless people have to play by their rules that they write, and they selectively enforce, is absurd.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    4. Re:Hoodlums by NiceGeek · · Score: 1

      The thing is, I don't even ascribe that level of heroism to them, they're a bunch of bored jerks who wander from one pointless attack to another. The attack (failed I might add) on Tumblr was nothing but sheer mean-spiritedness.

    5. Re:Hoodlums by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      It's not really interesting, but expected. For some people anything going against people/organizations they don't like is good (well, most people have still some limit there; I guess if those people started to kill the CEOs of those companies, there would be far less people who consider that good - but then, I'm pretty certain the number would still be nonzero). You know, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." There's absolutely no reason such people should not be found at Slashdot as well.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    6. Re:Hoodlums by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 1

      I find it interesting that some people on Slashdot consider them "freedom fighters" of a sort, trying to preserve freedom of speech, when some of the same group have actively tried to interfere with Tumblr and Facebook merely because they didn't like the kind of people who posted on them.

      As someone upthread said, these aren't freedom fighters, they're thugs. Just because their targets at the moment include businesses you don't like, doesn't make them less so.

      I'm not sure what to call them, exactly, but what's clear to me is that they have some power but are clueless in the application of that power to achieve their goals. If they can even articulate what their goals are.

      I don't believe for one second that any of the companies they targeted will consider the likeliness of a DDOS response as a decision criteria going forward.

      --

      Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    7. Re:Hoodlums by NiceGeek · · Score: 1

      Quit trying to make these bored punks look like something noble. The whole Wikileaks thing is just an excuse for /b/ to get their rocks off.

    8. Re:Hoodlums by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Of course there's a difference between violating rules which shouldn't be there in the first place (someone mentioned hiding Jews in Nazi Germany), and violating rules which would also be there if a more sensible government would be in power (to make an extreme case, if you protested against the U.S. government by nuking Washington, I doubt many people would consider you a freedom fighter - well, Al Quaida might :-)).

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    9. Re:Hoodlums by NuKe_MoNgOoSe · · Score: 1

      I tend to agree with that statement, I think the majority of these 'activists' are kids with no serious political or humanitarian positions the majority likely dont even understand the broad scope or implications that surround wikileaks. Mind you its not outside possibility that there are people who do know whats what sitting quietly watching what develops. lets face it there are genius level people out there who can cause a lot of legitimate havok with a computer they just need motivation to do so.

      --
      When you dislike the human race as much as I do, Karma:Bad is inevitable lol.
    10. Re:Hoodlums by DogDude · · Score: 0

      You've just described 90% of the US military. That doesn't stop the whole country from lauding them as "heroes". What's your point?

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    11. Re:Hoodlums by NiceGeek · · Score: 1

      As someone who has two brothers in the armed forces (one Navy and one Marine) go screw yourself.

    12. Re:Hoodlums by DogDude · · Score: 0

      As someone who pays a fortune in taxes supporting them and their families for no apparent reason, I say, go screw yourself, as well.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    13. Re:Hoodlums by Pyrion · · Score: 1

      Difference being every serviceperson has the implicit chance of getting shot at by enemy combatants. The only risk being taken here is the possibility of the 4chan party van showing up in front of someone's house.

      --
      "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell.
    14. Re:Hoodlums by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      Thugs harass weaker targets for personal gain, don't engage unbeatable enemies making a stand.

      How do you define freedom fighters then? Fighters fight who they think they have to fight, saying they are just thugs because they fight companies that behave in a manner they don't like... aren't all conflicts like this?

      You nuked two Japanese cities full of innocent civilians and children because you didn't like what they did to the warships at Perl Harbor. You killed Saddam Hussein an threw his nation into a deeper hell hole because you didn't like his oil pricing. Heck, you sacrificed hundreds if not thousands of your own young men fighting against England just because you didn't like paying their king taxes.

      So what makes them a thug other than fighting for something you *personally* don't like?

      I'm even more shocked at the level of partisanship in this discussion. It's like astroturfing though I dread it be real.

      Everybody is talking about how (A|a)nonymous is DDoSing Mastercard and how it hurts small dealers and how individual members are vulnerable and will be punished. What about the rednecks DDoSing Wikileaks? None of the pricks against Operation Payback seem to have anything to say about the Wikileaks DDoSers. Why haven't we heard of arrests of that group?

      Damn, some people can't get enough of the man.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    15. Re:Hoodlums by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Epic history fail.

      And you can be against the Anonymous thuggery and the DDoSing of Wikileaks (while not support Wikileaks current actions) at the same time.

    16. Re:Hoodlums by tophermeyer · · Score: 1

      What's your point?

      What's yours?

      "Effecting social change is hard, therefore I should be exempt from expectations of responsible behavior."?

      You feel oppressed by a bureaucratic government that doesn't listen to absolutely everything you say. Would you like someone to call you a Whaaa-mbulance?

    17. Re:Hoodlums by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Either you don't actually know anyone in the armed forces or you are a fucking idiot.

    18. Re:Hoodlums by AltairDusk · · Score: 1

      I would just like to point out that the very people you're currently lambasting are the the reason you even have the freedom to say this. Think about that for a bit.

    19. Re:Hoodlums by DogDude · · Score: 0

      Afghanistan and Iraq were trying to amend our Constitution? Those bastards! Let's nuke 'em!

      The military is nothing but an arm of the US government. The US government can't protect us from abuses by the US government. Groups like the ACLU does that.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    20. Re:Hoodlums by DogDude · · Score: 0

      The soldiers work FOR the US government. The problem IS the US government. Comparing soldiers to Anonymous is a bit like comparing SS Troops to Anne Frank.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    21. Re:Hoodlums by AltairDusk · · Score: 1

      The military has historically defended our country and stands ready to today. While I'm not going to make any arguments involving the current wars and defense of the country if we had never had armed forces I assure you that our country would not exist today. We're unlikely to fight against a true threat of invasion anytime in the near future as trying to invade one of the world's largest military powers is borderline suicidal.

      Your ire seems misplaced to me, take a look at the people at the top running the show, not the men and women in the field risking their lives.

    22. Re:Hoodlums by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of these people have EVER tried to stop the people or CEOs representing Facebook, Tumblr, PayPal, Visa, Mastercard et al. from speaking or publishing their opinions. They are simply disrupting them from making a profit from helping the government trample other peoples right to speak up.

      Remember this when they come from you...

      They may come for you last because you decide to quietly accept when they take away your rights but at some point they will come for you aswell, and there will be none left to speak up because you did not speak up when they came for them!

      The concentration camps in Nazi Germany was only possible because the wast majority of the German people decided to remain oblivious and passive when their Jewish neighbors were taken away and when the few protesters were taken away. People like you, who decide that it is best to let the government do what they want and not get in the way because they trample some people in their way to whatever end they think is better.

  11. 1992 by chronoss2010 · · Score: 0

    united hackers association formed........ and guess what however many we are....we still exist and will exist until the lights go out of humanity forever.

  12. Re:It is DDoS by openfrog · · Score: 2

    It is not DDoS or cyber-war it is cyber-picketing.

    It used to be that when you had a disagreement with a company people picked it and disrupted its business that way. Well, welcome to the 21 century you can now picket the business from the comfort of your own home.

    Picketing is a public act. DDoS is not. There is an essential difference. The media orchestration that we have seen over the last few days around DDoD lend me to think me that if there are a few teenagers behind these attacks, they are manipulated by those who want to influence public opinion in the direction of a kill-switch as one poster has mentioned above, and in the direction of measures to rein in on the Internet.

    It is all too easy for provocateurs to do as they please, as these actions are anonymous. But the media go on reporting on this ascribing these actions to "a movement in support of Wikileaks". We don't know that, they don't know that.

  13. So is Hactivist ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So is Hactivist what we will be saying in 2011, since "douchebag" reached critical mass in 2010, much like the?

  14. All well and good by vorlich · · Score: 1

    But I would observe that while the millstones of Mastercard et al may grind slowly they grind exceedingly fine. As my old Lutheran school teacher used to tell us about other stuff...

    --
    Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
  15. Hacktivism? by drolli · · Score: 1

    Please. Making a DDoS with a simple program relates to Hacking like Kicking garbage cans out of frustration relates to making really good and creative political demonstrations.

    Even if i do not consider myself a hacker, i think think that the following rules apply for most hackers:

    a) Hacking is creative, finding interesting ways to do and know interesting things, and communicating them.

    b) If its used for a purpose, make sure the purpose harms nobody. Always try to be useful.

    c) don't make hacks available in a form that stupid idiots can use them without understanding - that is to protect them from harming themself and others.

    d) Dont mistake your knowledge for power or superiority to judge over others. That would be the same as the superiority of the robber waiting in the dark alley.

    e) asymmetric warfare is often used by terrorists. Make sure you are careful when you can create an ethics based on the assumption that fighting an asymmetric war is justified.

    f) DDoS are something which should be prevented. They have been used by Russian hackers to take smaller countries web offline. They have been used by spammers to kick ant-spam and malware websites out of the net. They have been used to kick out political activists. DDoS are a weapon working best against small institutions. A small NGO maybe cant afford 1000Euro of Traffic costs. Amazon redistributes their cloud and thats it.

    1. Re:Hacktivism? by DogDude · · Score: 1

      "asymmetric warfare is often used by terrorists. Make sure you are careful when you can create an ethics based on the assumption that fighting an asymmetric war is justified." It is an asymmetric war. The government and the big corporations hold all of the power. The People have virtually no power. In this case, the Government and Big Business are colluding to keep all kinds of secrets about immoral and illegal acts from the People who supposedly both pay them and put them in power.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    2. Re:Hacktivism? by drolli · · Score: 1

      Right. Then how does DDoSing Amazon/Paypal/Visa exactly help the situation?

    3. Re:Hacktivism? by DogDude · · Score: 2

      Then how does DDoSing Amazon/Paypal/Visa exactly help the situation?

      Hopefully, it hits them in their wallets. I can't think of any other way to combat the gross Government/Big Business collusion that happens on a daily basis. How else does one inflict any damage to the massive Military Industrial Complex? Voting is a farce. The average Joe is too stupid, ignorant, or lazy to make any changes to how they do business. What else is there?

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    4. Re:Hacktivism? by drolli · · Score: 1

      Isn't that cute? The idea that 'the average Joe' doesn't now how to handle things, so his vote is so worthless that its legitimate also to use force or violence and damage somebody else.... I have heard that idea before... Usually it ends with the formation of an even smaller group which by definition knows how to handle things an takes - of course for the good of all - the name to speak and decide in the name of all on what is right. For sure nothing can go wrong with this idea.

  16. What a useless article by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 1

    I don't think the article had any more information than the summary. The article read like a middle school research project. The discussion on the topic is only slightly more interesting...

    I'm sure the kids on 4chan/b/ are enjoying the attention...until they find out the "hacking" kit they installed just uploaded all of dad's financial information.

    1. Re:What a useless article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure the kids on 4chan/b/ are enjoying the attention...until they find out the "hacking" kit they installed just uploaded all of dad's financial information.

      I seriously doubt they have the mental capacity to grasp that consequence, even if it were explained to them in plain, simple words (and translated to whatever language needed) AND it turned around to smack them in the face. There'd first be a series of "wut u stole every1s ca$h lulz taht wuz great d00d u rock!!!!! did u get mine?" posts, followed by very profane capital-letter-laced screeds posted from their friends' computers about how it's entirely bullshit that some hacker made off with all their dad's finances and until the courts weigh in they lost their internet connection due to nonpayment. After failing to see any connection (most likely they got distracted by a shiny object with tentacles before their unstable, caffeine-addled trains of thought got out of the station), they decide to draft their friends' computers into their righteous army of righteous righteousness to attack whatever bank their dad did business with, and then the cycle repeats again...

    2. Re:What a useless article by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 1

      Brilliant assessment, spot on too. Somewhere in there they'd get distracted with "tits or gtfo" though...

  17. Wikileaks did it to themselves by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wikileaks did it to themselves.

    Instead to sticking to the leaking criminal activity or human rights violations, leaks decided to just release everything they were given without regard to consequences.

    They are now actually aiding countries like China and Saudi Arabia by exposing all the US information and opinions on them.

    Good job leaks.

    --
    If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    1. Re:Wikileaks did it to themselves by DogDude · · Score: 2

      They are now actually aiding countries like China and Saudi Arabia by exposing all the US information and opinions on them.

      We couldn't help Saudi Arabia any more if we tried. 9/11 hijackers were all Saudis, yet we have the President holding hands and kissing their King. We give them billions of dollars, and prop up their regime. You seriously drank the Kool Aid if you think this is going to do any damage to the US, or if you think that whatever damage it may do would be a bad thing.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    2. Re:Wikileaks did it to themselves by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Informative

      They actually do retact the information. That's why it's coming out so slowly, a little at a time, rather than just sticking a multi-gig torrent up.

    3. Re:Wikileaks did it to themselves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      30% Troll, I knew the asshat mods wouldn't let me down.

    4. Re:Wikileaks did it to themselves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're just propagating the erroneous claim that Wikileaks has indiscriminately released the diplomatic cables, when in fact, that's not accurate. Virtually everything they've released so far, which amounts only to a tiny percentage of the total content they claim to possess, has been vetted by media organizations and either redacted or printed by them first. Wikilea

      Of course, that does nothing to stop you and many so-called "journalists" (who willfully choose to publish unsubstantiated claims even in the face of contradictory evidence) from continuing to beat this drum, even though you're really just a bunch of retards with two twigs in your hands drumming some unrecognizable, spastic rhythm on a trashcan lid.

    5. Re:Wikileaks did it to themselves by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      They are now actually aiding countries like China and Saudi Arabia by exposing all the US information and opinions on them.

      They are?

      Uhh... how? I mean, this is a pretty fucking bold claim, so I presume you have evidence to back up this wild assertion?

    6. Re:Wikileaks did it to themselves by jpmorgan · · Score: 1

      They redact the bare minimum needed to avoid accusations of gross negligence. But as one US admiral pointed out recently, most of these documents that were classified "Secret" weren't done so because of the content, they were classified to protect the source. Redacting a document to replace someone's name with 'XXXXXX' might hide the identity from your random armchair pundit, but the context and content will still make these people's identities clear to any interested investigator.

      As an example, one of the earliest leaked "Secret" documents was reporting on Ghaddafi's mental state. Wikileaks helpfully redacted the source's name but failed to remove the mention that the source was responsible for Ghaddafi's lodgings during his most recent UN visit. Now I have no fucking clue who this person was, and I bet neither do you; I bet the wikileaks volunteer who so helpfully redacted his name couldn't figure it out. But I guarantee Ghaddafi's people won't have much trouble remembering out which aide this was.

    7. Re:Wikileaks did it to themselves by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      They are now actually aiding countries like China and Saudi Arabia by exposing all the US information and opinions on them.

      We couldn't help Saudi Arabia any more if we tried. 9/11 hijackers were all Saudis, yet we have the President holding hands and kissing their King. We give them billions of dollars, and prop up their regime. You seriously drank the Kool Aid if you think this is going to do any damage to the US, or if you think that whatever damage it may do would be a bad thing.

      The Saudis are tools, not friends, and everyone realizes.
      Tools == dickweeds
      and
      Tools == someone to be used.

      Both are accurate.

      Unfortunately propping up dickweeds has tended to backfire on the US in the past, but if you want to get your hands dirty in the clusterfuck hellhole that is the Middle East, it's pretty much unavoidable.

    8. Re:Wikileaks did it to themselves by Grapplebeam · · Score: 1

      That's not correct, which means you didn't read any of the information, which means you're spouting information you heard without questioning it, which is why we need Wikileaks in the first place.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree.
  18. Analogy for DDOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe we should send this to all the media outlets as an explanation for what a DDoS is.

    You, Mr. Retail Mogul, happen to own a mail order catalog. You make money by having customers mail you a physical (pen and paper) form that states their order and also includes a check for payment. You get lots of mail every day that contain orders. To make this analogy fit better, we'll say that all orders must be sent as registered mail that requires you to sign off on.

    One day some people decide that the haircut you just got is a crime to humanity and must be punished. They get hundreds of thousands of disgusted people together and decide to all write thousands of letters each to your Mail-In Orders Department. The letters they send all look legitimate and come from many different locations across the U.S. and the globe.

    The U.S. Postal Service doesn't know which orders are legitimate or not so they deliver all the letters. Your mail room has a normal volume of 800 letters per day. Now all of a sudden it's getting 160,000 letters per day, most of them being fake orders. See the problem? Your mail room staff must open each letter and examine the contents to determine if it is a real order or not. The USPS also can't keep up with delivering the letters. Since all letters are registered, you must sign a form upon receipt and the USPS must return that response to the sender (who may have used a fake return address!). The USPS also has trouble getting all of these delivery receipts back from you to deliver to the local branch. They are only used to 800 per day coming from you.

    The problem is that all the requests seem legitimate and as such you must respond to each one individually. It is a distributed denial of service attack because you and 100,000 of your closest friends are bombarding a business with legitimate-looking letters.

    "Hacking" (using the butchered media definition) would be more like breaking into the business and burning some of the letters or maybe even the mail room workers. Slipping laxatives in the workers' food or changing their schedules to all be gone during business hours might be good analogies too.

  19. Contradictory by Somewhat+Delirious · · Score: 1

    While I have some sympathy for the feelings that have inspired these attacks I think the whole idea (if there is actually such a thing), is flawed. Protecting freedom of expression, freedom of information and freedom of the press by making information and services inaccesible is contradictory at best. On the other hand I don't see how the more literal "denial of service" attacks by Amazon, Visa, Paypal, Mastercard against Wikileaks can be defended (if they can be I haven't seen such a defence from any of them anyway).
    There must however be more creative and legal ways to mount mass protest against these corporate entities that go beyond just terminating your private use of their services. Some possibilities come to mind: writing tons of emails complaining about their decisions to all company related email adresses you can dig up and mass posting reviews on Amazon criticizing their decision for instance. I'm sure I'm missing lots of interesting ones but you get the point.

    --
    The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
    1. Re:Contradictory by DogDude · · Score: 1

      There must however be more creative and legal ways to mount mass protest against these corporate entities that go beyond just terminating your private use of their services. Some possibilities come to mind: writing tons of emails complaining about their decisions to all company related email adresses you can dig up and mass posting reviews on Amazon criticizing their decision for instance. I'm sure I'm missing lots of interesting ones but you get the point.

      No, I think you're missing the point. There really is no better way to mount a mass protest against these corporate/government entities that anybody has thought of. The masses are too ill-informed or lazy to lift a finger, to say, not use a credit card and use cash instead, or to get up off of their fat butts and buy locally instead of through Mother Amazon. There *should* be other ways, but the fact is that the system is far too entrenched and protected for the People to make legitimate, "legal" grievances. This is really all that's left, as far as I can tell.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
  20. Mod Parent Insightful by Moryath · · Score: 1

    It's sad that the above post has languished at 0 points and not been modded up. If I had the mod points to give, I'd give.

  21. Well it worked .... by unity100 · · Score: 4, Informative

    At first paypal was blabbering that they cut wikileaks due to 'violation of tos', and there was no political pressure involved. (probably liebermann warned them to say that). A few days with anonymous, they came around to openly say that they did it due to political pressure. A few more days, they decided to release the wikileaks funds they were holding ...

    you cant say it didnt work.

    1. Re:Well it worked .... by gsslay · · Score: 1

      Your analysis rather pre-supposes two things. Neither of which, I suspect, you can prove;

      1/ Paypal weren't going to release the funds anyway. Everyone knows that Paypal can be jerks when it comes to this, but they're not about to simply steal someone's money. At least not when everyone's looking. So the DDoS probably made absolutely no difference to events.

      2/ The point of the DDoS was to secure the release of the funds. Everything I read suggested that it was the same deal as Mastercard; this was to punish the organisation for having the temerity to decide they didn't want Wikileak's business.

      But I guess if you can change your mind about why you did something, and what it was you wanted, you can always claim victory afterwards. No matter what happens.

    2. Re:Well it worked .... by unity100 · · Score: 1

      The point of DDOS was pressure. pressuring paypal to revert. expect it to continue.

      you can rest assured that, had the pressure not been there, paypal wouldnt have any issues holding their funds like they held the funds of millions of people without any means to recover them in the past.

  22. HackerZzz by kubernet3s · · Score: 1

    This looks like another case of "we wouldn't be having this conversation if it weren't on the internet." The media have consistently characterized Anonymous as "hackers" and "cyber-terrorists" which are way, WAY more malicious than what they actually are, which many people on slashdot have accurately described. If they are anything, they are picketers: the internet equivalent of teenagers with posterboard: yes they are not fostering delicately managed discourse, and yes they are interfering with the operation of "legitimate businesses" but neither are they unjustified or even transgressing against acceptable protest protocol. However, the media paints a fantasy of these hardened e-criminals jacking onto the net stream to funnel pure information directly from the cyber vaults into the unsuspecting infosphere. This is another case of an "the intertron will steal your credit cards!" hysteria, which

  23. Re:It is DDoS by DogDude · · Score: 1

    Picketing is a public act. DDoS is not. There is an essential difference.

    Yes, the difference is that picketing rarely gets one arrested, while DDoSing activates all of the police and military power of the federal government. There's a hell of a lot more to lose by participating in a DDos than picketing.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
  24. Anonymous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    irc://178.63.172.193/OperationPayback

  25. Re:It is DDoS by Duradin · · Score: 1

    Perhaps it's because if you picket legally you won't get arrested. It's a difficult concept but legal protests are legal as long as they continue to obey the relevant laws. Of course there's more to lose when engaging in an illegal activity. The Anonymous thugs aren't heroes that should be lionized. They can't be bothered with an actual protest because they are too busy smashing windows.

  26. Terrible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Was this written by a 6th grader? Terrible writing, no research, flawed or lacking arguments. What's the point?

  27. Re:It is DDoS by DogDude · · Score: 1

    How does one protest Mastercard, exactly?

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
  28. Re:It is DDoS by Duradin · · Score: 1

    Start a facebook (or whatever is popular) campaign.

    Cancel your Mastercard credit cards and tell them why you are doing so.

    Don't use services that use Mastercard systems and explain the reason for not using someone's service.

  29. Re:It is DDoS by clone52431 · · Score: 1

    Picketing is a public act. DDoS is not.

    That’s incorrect. Your online identity is known. People’s real identities have been found using that information and they’ve been charged with crimes for it.

    And even if it wasn’t illegal, as it ought not to be (no more than any real life protest is illegal), that simply shows an inability of the online community to enforce consequences for this sort of action.

    For instance, if some of the major players banded together and designed their servers to share IP addresses in real-time during a DDoS, the attackers might suddenly find that Google, Hotmail, etc. refused to acknowledge connections from their IP address, making their internet connection fairly useless until they stopped flooding the DDoS target and their IP expired from the blacklist (which could be set to occur in several hours or even less, as long as they had stopped actively participating in the DDoS).

    But that would require actual work on their part to find a solution to address their problem and fix it. It’s much easier for them to just yell about how the DDoS attackers are criminals and bring the hurt on a few of them to discourage the rest a la the RIAA playbook.

    --
    Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
  30. That's because you deny access by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Picketing is NOT about denying access to something, it is about persuading people not to go in. Picketing is non-violent, and non-disruptive. The idea is to call attention to a problem, and to hopefully persuade others to not do business with a place. If you are forcibly stopping people from going in, that's a blockade and that isn't legal.

    If you think I'm an asshole, you are within your rights to picket my house. You can stand outside, not on the property, with a sign and let people know, including people who come to visit. However, if you try to block me from entering my house, the police will come and remove you and charge you with a crime. You can't prevent me from going where I want.

    Now occasionally protesters do blockade a business as a form of protest. Guess what? They get arrested for that, and they KNOW they will. It is a form of civil disobedience and they understand the consequences.

    This is not picketing, it is blockading and it is illegal.

    1. Re:That's because you deny access by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Picketing is non-violent, and non-disruptive.

      Yes, it can be disruptive. People can still go in and out, but they have to walk past the picketers.

      If you think I'm an asshole, you are within your rights to picket my house. You can stand outside, not on the property, with a sign and let people know, including people who come to visit.

      Hmm... so how do i picket an online store. I can't let people know who come to visit because nobody physically shows up.

      However, if you try to block me from entering my house, the police will come and remove you and charge you with a crime. You can't prevent me from going where I want.

      If a LOT of people show up to picket you, you can still go in and out, but they are going to tie up street, and slow things down. Exactly like DDoS. DDoS doesn't stop the site from working, it just clogs things up getting in and out because of all the people around.

      If a lot of people are picketing, and it clogs things up, that's disruptive... and entirely legal.

      Not that I actually think DDoS is the equivalent to picketing. But it does bother me that picketing can be so neatly disabled by simply taking away all the public space. Freedom to assemble and protest doesn't have a lot of meaning if there isn't any public space.

      Its already come up a few times that politcos have exploited this, by leasing their property, and then telling protestors they can't assemble because its private property not public property and "the landlord doesn't want them there". Its only a matter of time before we privatize roads and then ban marches as tresspassing on private property.

    2. Re:That's because you deny access by Grapplebeam · · Score: 1

      Actually, in most places you CAN block someone for a short amount of time. The amount of time you're allowed to make them waste depends on where you are. I'll leave the speculation to you.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree.
  31. Re:It is DDoS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Disruptors show how important it is to educate people and teach them critical thinking skills. If today's teenagers blindly follow disruptors without a second thought, it's our own fault for not teaching them to be wiser.
    Blaming anonymity is one option, but it won't make people smarter. Better to educate ourselves (as a society) rather than to take away every problem that challenges our intelligence.

    Also, I personally don't think the people behind the recent attacks on the music industry or in support of WikiLeaks are being manipulated. They have good arguments, which we may agree or disagree with, but these arguments are not stupid. It's clear the movement or group has put some thought into this. Anonymous/Operation: Payback has explained that they want copyrights to be shorter in duration. Regarding WikiLeaks, they explained that they believe a) too much secrecy kills democracy and b) secrecy has been abused by the government, therefore there is need for WikiLeaks.
    I'm not saying those arguments are right, only that they are good (i.e. they are not completely absurd).

    If Anonymous were manipulated by someone and just looking for an excuse to do harm, I would expect them to come up with much less constructive arguments, such as "Corporations are evil, period" or "We just think anarchy is good". I would also expect them to do more damage than simply taking down websites for a few days. Compare what they do to other forms of protest that we commonly find acceptable but that are more damaging and you'll realize that they're quite peaceful. They don't hack, they don't destroy property, they don't assault people, they don't encourage others to use violence... Many Nobel Peace Prize winners can't say the same about themselves, if that means anything.

    (And I'm willing to bet some smartass is going to say my assessment of Anonymous is probably biased since I don't use a nickname).

  32. Re:It is DDoS by clone52431 · · Score: 1

    It's a difficult concept but legal protests are legal as long as they continue to obey the relevant laws.

    And as long as the relevant laws continue to say that the protest is legal. Does the company you’re picketing have lobbyists?

    --
    Distributed Denial of APK: It takes 15 seconds to reply to him anonymously, but wastes tons of his time if we all do it.
  33. this article is not slashdot worthy... by zcold · · Score: 1

    that article was sooooo boring... I didnt know we had 10 year olds and grandmas reading slashdot....

    --
    you know you can fry stuff putting things into things that dont like the things you put into it...
  34. Re:It is DDoS by AltairDusk · · Score: 1

    This presents a problem when you wish to send a message to Mastercard, Visa, and Paypal. Take those three out of the equation and you are very rapidly running out of options to buy anything on most sites.

  35. What an arbitrary line to cross... by Shauni · · Score: 1

    Many protests involve preventing others from doing business with a company.

    Organizational boycotts are one.

    Or protests can crowd the streets, make it difficult to enter a place of business, or just make doing business an unpleasant experience with hundreds of people waving placards outside.

    I am a freelancer who gets paid entirely through Paypal. These attacks may occasionally make it difficult for me to access my money, the same way a loud crowd outside my bank would inconvenience me.

    But that's not crossing any bullshit "line." The site will probably be up again in an hour or two.

    Now, if they stole all my money from my account, or somehow got it permanently frozen, THAT would be crossing a line.

    1. Re:What an arbitrary line to cross... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I am a freelancer who gets paid entirely through Paypal.

      Why, as a matter of interest?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    2. Re:What an arbitrary line to cross... by Shauni · · Score: 1

      It's the only way unfortunately. The company I do most of my business with only pays through Paypal.

      I'm not that happy about that either. I've mentioned it to the people who run it, but am not too optimistic, as apparently they have some sort of preferred customer status there.

  36. Corporations should not be afforded the rights by AoT · · Score: 1

    of persons. And while they are legally, in the US at least, that doesn't mean they deserve those rights.

  37. There is no "right" to never be inconvenienced by Shauni · · Score: 1

    You have the right not to be murdered, stolen from, maimed or silenced, but asking to never be inconvenienced is the height of entitlement.

    I am a freelancer who gets paid through Paypal and spends money with a Visa debit card. I am inconvenienced by DDoS attacks.

    I am also a citizen who understands that sometimes a price must be paid for freedom. I have protested, signed petitions, voted... and nothing has happened. If anything, things have gotten worse. My petitions have been overwritten by paid astroturfers and phony corporate funded PACs. My vote has been overwritten by companies willing to spend billions of dollars of advertising, and to a lesser extent by the two-party democracy system. My protests have been ignored.

    I am not alone in this frustration. I am willing to have people take it a step further (I'd take part in the attacks if I had my own computer, but unfortunately I have to share, which would put others at risk). Not to violence or destruction, but ends that do make it more difficult to do business.

    If a little personal inconvenience is enough for you to hate a protester, maybe you should examine your own system of morality rather than theirs.

  38. It's all activism, but some activism is stupid by Brannon · · Score: 1

    What if 100,000 Scientologists shut down Wikipedia? is that still activism?

    Yes, because the question isn't whether the action is "activism" (clearly it is), it is whether that activism is good or bad. That's up to individuals to decide.

    My opinion: some of the stuff on Wikileaks should be publicly available and some of it shouldn't (I think the world can live without knowing

    I think that there should be enforceable laws against releasing classified information--the internet may not make that practical anymore (remains to be seen). There should be just enough of a legal and practical deterrent that it requires effort and sacrifice in order to release classified info--so that it will only be done when enough people feel strongly that it is a moral imperative (remember, people get arrested at sit-ins and they do it anyway, but only when they really care about the cause).

  39. Re:It is DDoS by kaffiene · · Score: 1

    It is all too easy for provocateurs to do as they please, as these actions are anonymous. But the media go on reporting on this ascribing these actions to "a movement in support of Wikileaks". We don't know that, they don't know that.

    Yeah, I'm sure Operation Avenge Assange is completely unrelated to Wikileaks.

  40. Well Sh*t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those sit in protests of the sixties crossed the same lines. How wrong we all were :-(

  41. Re:Tuesday should not be a day of the week by Capsaicin · · Score: 1

    Corporations should not be afforded the rights of persons.

    Sorry but that's nonsensical. The enjoyment of the rights of a person is the sine qua non of the corporate form. What you meant to write is "corporations should be outlawed."

    --
    Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
  42. Publish and loose your Facebook account by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you publish the twitter for anonymous on Facebook be ready to loose your account.

    Despite the URL being on the 6 PM news in Australia I know of one other person besides myself that has had a Facebook account closed and the only common element is we published the Twitter link.

    Fuck me it is New World Order!

  43. Re:Can we PLEASE... cracker" is a very recent? by Darkhorserus · · Score: 1