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Disempowering the Singular Sysadmin?

An anonymous reader writes "Practically every computer system appears to be at the mercy of at least one individual who holds root (or whatever other superuser identity can destroy or subvert that system). However, making a system require multiple individuals for any root operation (think of the classic two-key process to launch a nuke) has shortcomings: simple operations sometimes require root, and would be enormously cumbersome if they needed a consensus of administrators to execute. There is the idea of a Distributed Administration Network, which is like a cluster of independently administered servers, but this is a limited case for deployment of certain applications. And besides, DAN appears still to be vaporware. Are there more sweeping yet practical solutions out there for avoiding the weakness of a singular empowered superuser?"

433 comments

  1. Too many cooks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    ...spoil the soup.

    1. Re:Too many cooks... by JustOK · · Score: 3, Funny

      fine, no soup. just type sudo make me a sandwich

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    2. Re:Too many cooks... by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      $ sudo make sandwitch
      sandwich: target not found

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    3. Re:Too many cooks... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ...spoil the soup.

      The submission seems to presume that the system in question is some sort of *nix or Windows box. If we look into the world of mainframe operating systems, we'll see that this has already been fully adressed, and any number of individuals with discrete UIDs may have superuser access. This has evolved out of a history where sysadmins worked shifts, so sharing a single privileged UID/password was/is a bad idea.

      The way such access is administrated needs a proper policy within the organisation, though. Back in the '90s, I worked at one outfit (an insurance company) where the vice-CEO demanded superuser privileges despite having no knowledge of system administration or any other computing background. He just wanted to act as overlord as to what staff had access to on their signons. I was very tempted to tell him to get fucked, phrased in more professional terms. Like "Go get professionally fucked".

      My immediate boss was (wisely) more inclined to a diplomatic approach, however, so he pursuaded me to install a dummy program for him that was enough to convince him that he had what he wanted, without granting him any kind of command line access, or ability to change system configuration.

    4. Re:Too many cooks... by intellitech · · Score: 2

      $ sudo make sandwitch
      sandwich: target not found

      Was pretty funny until I realized you typed it in by hand. Too bad you misspelled sandwich.. ;)

      --
      vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat.
    5. Re:Too many cooks... by Sancho · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the point:

      However, making a system require multiple individuals for any root operation (think of the classic two-key process to launch a nuke)

      The idea is that certain operations are too dangerous to allow an individual to perform. You want two or more people acting in coordination in order to perform the operation. We see this kind of thing with encryption key recovery (m of n people required to come together in order to reconstruct a root key, for example--which is how the DNSSEC key is secured.) In this way, a rogue individual cannot compromise the security of the system--it takes a conspiracy of some previously-determined magnitude.

      Of course, when "superuser" means "I can do anything on the system," the concept of security breaks down. At best, you can still have accountability if your logs are sent off-site and secured appropriately. You could certainly require m of n to access the log server (reconstruct an SSH key which is then used to pull the logs off of the server) or send them to several immutable accounts (think Gmail), each of which is only accessible by one superuser.

      You could do the key recovery dance to access any server, but as the OP points out, this is too cumbersome for many of the mundane operations which require root.

    6. Re:Too many cooks... by ghjm · · Score: 1

      Windows and Unix/Linux also have the ability for many discrete UIDs to have superuser access. That's not the point of the article. The point is how to do away with the superuser concept, so that nobody (not even the admin) has unfettered access, but system administration tasks can still somehow be performed.

    7. Re:Too many cooks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My old company tried something along this line - an "escrow" system. Root password was changed every command, and you'd get a one-time password to run a command after it had gone through all the approvals. Cyberark, I think it was called. I'll let the reader work out the failings there. As a dry run, I got the team to operate as if it were in place. The VPs didn't take long to drop that abortion of an idea.
      My first ever AC post. I don't want to hear from lawyers from the vendor, nor from my old company.

    8. Re:Too many cooks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did it every occur to you that MAYBE he needed superuser access so he could administrate other accounts? Employees often get hired and fired.

    9. Re:Too many cooks... by afidel · · Score: 1

      I've seen places that use a management system where the commands to be executed are entered into a package which works its way through dev then test then QA and finally prod with each move requiring the ok of a change management committee. Those same places usually have a rotating root key that has to be checked out with justification given and a supervisor's ok to actually release the key. I personally have zero desire to work in such an environment but that's about as close as you will get with COTS OS's.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    10. Re:Too many cooks... by fishexe · · Score: 1

      $ sudo make sandwitch sandwich: target not found

      Was pretty funny until I realized you typed it in by hand. Too bad you misspelled sandwich.. ;)

      He was using the new version of make, which is now so clever it can tell what you meant even if you mistype something. How else do you think he would misspell it on the command line but not in the error message?

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    11. Re:Too many cooks... by fishexe · · Score: 1

      fine, no soup. just type sudo make me a sandwich

      sudo make me a sandwich
      make: *** No rule to make target `me'. Stop.

      It works better if you say it out loud to your geek spouse than if you type it to your computr. If you're lucky enough to have a geek spouse, that is. The rest of us just hear the reply, "What the fuck does sudo mean? And make your own damn sandwich!"

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    12. Re:Too many cooks... by phoenix321 · · Score: 1

      It all boils down to "Who watches the watchers". Which is a question that hasn't been completely solved since the dawn of man.

      Maybe "Checks and Balances" would be the right thing, but it's a difficult thing to implement.

    13. Re:Too many cooks... by Lashat · · Score: 1

      I'll file a bug ASAP.

      --
      For every benefit you receive a tax is levied. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
    14. Re:Too many cooks... by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Odd. When I tried it, I got:
      camperdave is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.

      Should I be worried?

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    15. Re:Too many cooks... by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Odd. When I tried it, I got: camperdave is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported. Should I be worried?

      Only if you believe

    16. Re:Too many cooks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome.

    17. Re:Too many cooks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      best xkcd ever!

    18. Re:Too many cooks... by ushering05401 · · Score: 1

      The description of the individual's dedication to the field does not validate possession of superuser powers. Perhaps the description is an unfair one. Either way, putting specialists between a legit C and a switch is how you ensure moderation and peer review in a hierarchy. So dude prolly needed an Actionable Process more than direct access.

    19. Re:Too many cooks... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Did it every occur to you that MAYBE he needed superuser access so he could administrate other accounts? Employees often get hired and fired.

      Sure, but the company in question had an HR department to handle that. Why have a dog and bark yourself? I think the guy in question really wanted to be able to spy on everybody else, but given that this was at a time when email wasn't available on those in-house systems, and all financial transactions were visible through the general ledger, I think he was just on a power trip.

  2. Yes by JamesonLewis3rd · · Score: 1

    I have been wondering the same thing.

    --
    Hebrews 11:8
    Jeremiah 33:3
    1. Re:Yes by ByOhTek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A subset of administrative applications requiring multiple administrators may not be such a bad compromise.

      ex:
      * change root password (or password to any "wheel" account) - requires multiple administrators to enter the same passwords
      *su/sudo'ing to a "wheel" account, or changing said account's privileges, requires the authorization of at least one other wheel'ed user.
      * Alterning an active network interface, shutting down, and restarting requires authorization by other administrative users.

      Stuff like that, which are things that shouldn't be done often, anyway, and could allow one admin to take over the whole system, seem like good candidates for multiple-approvals. Everything else could be left alone.

      The approval process is basically - the root users needs to take the action, and then 2+ non-root (but wheel) users must approve it.

      I'm using 'wheel' as that is the group in FreeBSD that is typically allowed access to sudo/su. Not sure how other systems typically work.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    2. Re:Yes by jijacob · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you don't trust your sysadmin, they shouldn't be your sysadmin. Just like the accounting department probably has the ability to steal a certain sum of money before anyone will notice, your sysadmin is given responsibilities that could potentially cause grief if they are on the wrong team.

    3. Re:Yes by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If you don't trust your sysadmin, they shouldn't be your sysadmin.

      Trust, but verify. I believe the submitter is asking how to provide for verification without breaking operations.

      Just as I'd be an idiot for handing my checkbook over to the sole control of an employee based solely on trust, I'd be an idiot for handing over the keys to my IT systems.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    4. Re:Yes by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Some times it's a matter of you really can't/shouldn't trust ANYONE but you have no choice. In these cases, a validating/verifying approach can be helpful.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    5. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can enable it with pam. But the most common other un*x derivates usually ignore old central administrations and focus on per machine configuration and sudo.

    6. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      At a certain point you have to be able to trust someone. The president has to trust that the secret service guy won't shoot him in the back. You'd be an idiot for handing over your checkbook to a stranger or someone you didn't check on occassionally, but not for trusting them. Good luck running an IT dept without trusting anyone with root.

    7. Re:Yes by jijacob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The tricky part comes in at the point that, while most CEOs have at least a basic understanding of accounting and other departments under their watch, IT departments are *typically* a foreign land to the understanding of those in charge. Even if they wanted to audit proper usage of root it would be difficult or impossible. Small businesses have it hardest. At least in the larger ones there's a layering system so you can have higher-ups in IT auditing the lower guys.

    8. Re:Yes by sglewis100 · · Score: 1

      If you don't trust your sysadmin, they shouldn't be your sysadmin. Just like the accounting department probably has the ability to steal a certain sum of money before anyone will notice, your sysadmin is given responsibilities that could potentially cause grief if they are on the wrong team.

      Funny, many companies I've worked for required two signatures on any check over a certain amount. Also, lots of places separate those who print checks (and have access to MICR toner and blank checks) and those who sign them. The latter may be just common sense (executives don't run payroll, etc), but the former certainly is an acknowledgement that just because you sign a check doesn't mean you have blanket trust and authority.

    9. Re:Yes by ByOhTek · · Score: 2

      I disagree. You can instead trust some /people/ with proper checks and balances. This can, in some situations, reduce the risk (for example, if more than one is required for approval of certain things)

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    10. Re:Yes by mlts · · Score: 1

      The old phrase, "trust, but verify" comes into play here. At the SMB level, it is likely not worth it to employees hired to watch the other admins, other than a known good consultant who just comes in every so often. However, at the midsize to enterprise level, it doesn't hurt to have separation of duties, and not just into the usual silos (windows/network/SAN/backup/UNIX/physical security/auditing/etc.) It is good to avoid having an "internal affairs" group who is only there to second-guess the other admins. This ends up in nasty political battles.

    11. Re:Yes by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point.

      Yes, you have to assign trust in order to function. But you also need to verify that your trust is merited, and continues to be merited.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    12. Re:Yes by Dancindan84 · · Score: 2

      The concept is sound, but in practice the first time there's an emergency where something in the subset needs to be done and 2+ admins are required causing even a small delay, the PHBs will toss it out the window (and not be entirely wrong in doing so). There's always a trade off for greater security/accountability, and IMHO this will cross the line of what's acceptable to management often enough that it won't happen broadly.

      --
      "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
    13. Re:Yes by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2

      Good point you make there.

      I think there are gaps in management knowledge for most small companies, so they outsource it. Basic accounting is near universal, but tax, for example, is typically outsourced for small companies. Tax prep, however, is via an accredited institution most of the time.

      So for IT, do we turn to accreditation of outside providers? Or do we wait a couple generations until basic knowledge of IT is assumed necessary for non-CIO CxOs?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    14. Re:Yes by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      Using Physical security as an analogy: is there someone who has keys to *everything* in the building?

      I could imagine a high-security building where no single person has access to every area, even the security personnel. Although perhaps they do need such access in case there is a fire or something like that.

    15. Re:Yes by groslyunderpaid · · Score: 1

      Just as I'd be an idiot for handing my checkbook over to the sole control of an employee based solely on trust, I'd be an idiot for handing over the keys to my IT systems.

       
      Isn't there a bit of irony there? You have the keys to something that doesn't belong to you in your singular possession, but don't want to turn them over to someone else's singular possession because a single person might abuse them?

    16. Re:Yes by pentadecagon · · Score: 1

      If you don't trust your sysadmin, they shouldn't be your sysadmin. Just like the accounting department probably has the ability to steal a certain sum of money before anyone will notice, your sysadmin is given responsibilities that could potentially cause grief if they are on the wrong team.

      If someone from the accounting department steals money, it will be noticed eventually, and it can be tracked back to him. If the IT guy creates havoc its very hard, if not impossible, to figure out what happened. Even the most reliable Admin may run mad at some point, be it a crazy management decision or some personal disaster.

    17. Re:Yes by mysidia · · Score: 1

      *su/sudo'ing to a "wheel" account, or changing said account's privileges, requires the authorization of at least one other wheel'ed user.

      And then after that authorization you are back to a superuser scenario.

      Once su'ing root, user just manually starts a custom daemon on port 1234 that lets anyone knowing a secret code execute commands, or VI's the password file to add another wheel user, so he can authorize all his own requests in the future (by opening a second login session).

    18. Re:Yes by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      The tricky part comes in at the point that, while most CEOs have at least a basic understanding of accounting and other departments under their watch, IT departments are *typically* a foreign land to the understanding of those in charge. Even if they wanted to audit proper usage of root it would be difficult or impossible.

      Excellent point. Plus the fact that accounting in particular is subject to external oversight and some pretty rigid structures imposed by regulatory agencies. This tends to limit the creativity of any accounting solutions, or at least provides employers with external tools to check on just how 'creative' their accountants are getting...

      System administration OTOH is a beast of a very different colour. There are some basic guidelines as far as security, user access control, etc., but how strictly these are actually implemented and monitored is *very* dependent on the technology, the business needs and the resource availability. And since there is typically no one 'right' answer, any sort of external audit would probably provide ambiguous conclusions for the concerned employer, as well as a sales pitch for the auditors' preferred technology or software.

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    19. Re:Yes by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      The problem is that while the changes you propose sound simple their implications run very deep. Restricting the passwd command doesn't help if you can just edit the password store directly. You would therefore have to have a system with some files that noone, not even root could edit directly but then that would cause problems for things like backup, restore etc.

      And then you have the problem of having to have more admins on call for when the shit hits the fan since there are some operations that require two of them. That alone could get very expensive for a small operation.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    20. Re:Yes by Toe,+The · · Score: 2

      That is precisely the point of the original question.

      We trust politicians with our governance, and over and over and over again, they violate that trust.

      Collaborative governance is a way to remove the need for politicians. But it is pointless if we just shift the trust over to sysadmins. They are just as susceptible to corruption as politicians.

      We are looking for a way to remove the need for trust in governance: of governments (and any other kind of administration) and of the systems that run them.

    21. Re:Yes by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Trust, but verify.

      Which means you don't really trust.

    22. Re:Yes by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, this fails as often as it works. It is a reoccurring story that bad SysAdmins are not replaced because the risk of replacing them is greater than the cost there bad behavior has on the company. In many companies, the SysAdmin have actually hijacked the entire company, and have gotten to the point of dictating to C level executives what company policy will be. All companies should have a system to verify if the SysAdmin is behaving badly, and contingency plan for how safely get rid of them if they do.

    23. Re:Yes by fishexe · · Score: 1

      If you don't trust your sysadmin, they shouldn't be your sysadmin.

      What if I don't trust myself?

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    24. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Time to bubble wrap yourself, throw away anything sharp, and have your cat walk across your keyboard after typing "passwd root"

    25. Re:Yes by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Sure, if you want to split hairs. I don't trust anyone 100%, not even my wife. Shit happens.

      Why would you trust anyone 100% with something critical to you?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    26. Re:Yes by SkimTony · · Score: 1

      In the world of finance, accounting folks are required to take two consecutive weeks of vacation without access to systems per year, on the premise that any shenanigans will come to light during that time.

      So, following that model, sysadmins should have to take two weeks of consecutive vacation without access to systems...

      Thanks. I'll be here all night...

    27. Re:Yes by nine-times · · Score: 1

      That's fair to a certain point, but ultimately you want to protect yourself as much as possible. An accountant can cook the books for a while before anyone notices, but that's why people have audits.

    28. Re:Yes by afidel · · Score: 1

      There are some fairly rigorous standards with outside auditing in IT, if you are a public company there's SOX, if you're in healthcare there's HIPAA, and if you deal with credit cards there's PCI-DSS. If you don't fall into one of those three areas its fairly unlikely that you have the staff or budget for more rigorous controls anyways.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    29. Re:Yes by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1

      I strongly agree. Everywhere I've ever worked had a few sys admins with root access. The original post just sounds to me like another company with the "our employees are our enemies" attitude.

    30. Re:Yes by afidel · · Score: 1

      We're a midsized enterprise and we have a QA department that handles quarterly audits, an internal audit department that does semi-anual audits over IT in addition to their quarterly financial audits and an outside auditor that does annual audits. This is thanks to SOX.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    31. Re:Yes by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      You nailed it on the head.

      Companies like accountability. If the thing blew up, they want someone to fire.

      with 10+ admins, you cant point a finger in a heat of passion and say "Escort him from the building!", it would take weeks to figure out what happened, and if the 10+ admins were wise they would cover each others asses.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    32. Re:Yes by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      I had a CEO shit himself when I finally informed him that I as a top tier It admin I had the keys to his kingdom. His encrypted disk, I can read it. His email, I can read it.

      And I also told him that because of corporate policy, we do. We have a script that looks through and flags any of his correspondence if any keywords are triggered.

      He literally shit himself and demanded that all his communications be encrypted so nobody can access it. I handed him a list of URL's of software to use and told him, Here you go, If I help you I can get in it. you have to do it all by yourself.

      He got off his high horse pretty quickly.

      "I guess I have to trust my BMW mechanic to not cut my brake lines or plant a bomb..", he said. Yup! Although you should treat those with that kind of power over your life with more than the normal respect and niceness...

      From that day on, IT got a box of dough-nuts every Friday from the CEO.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    33. Re:Yes by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      No problem.

      The cleaning crew.

      They typically have more access than anyone else. and Those people typically are temp positions. Why do you think it's so easy to hack most corporations?

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    34. Re:Yes by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Unless you are a very well financed operation that needs insane amounts of security oversight, just hire a sysadmin that you can trust. You'll spend less on an NSA-quality vetting process than you would on keeping multiple sysadmins on the clock 24/7.

      And you'll have a lot less sysadmins that are annoyed that they have to jump through hoops every time they need to restart a daemon or edit a conf file. Personally, there's no way in hell I would take a sysadmin job where I had to ask permission every time I tried to do my job. Trust but verify (external logs that I can't access) is fine, no trust is not.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    35. Re:Yes by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      wait, he literally shat himself? Here's hoping he had a change of pants to hand.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    36. Re:Yes by D+Ninja · · Score: 1

      If you don't trust your sysadmin, they shouldn't be your sysadmin.

      Maybe you do trust him. But, workers become disgruntled (without ever seeming to be...until it's too late - look at work places that were shot up with no real indication from the employee), and people have bad days (and lose it), or sometimes someone just messes up (mistakes happen).

    37. Re:Yes by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      That's what audits are for wether it's a financial audit or a security audit. Draconian procedure will get circumvented or will backfire on you on the worst possible moment. Just make some basic rules and have an independent third party check once in a while.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    38. Re:Yes by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I never suggest I did. Words of one liar do not make another liar look any better.

    39. Re:Yes by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1
      You took exception to the fact that I don't trust 100%. I explained why.

      The "you" I used in my post was the generic "you", meaning anyone.

      Words of one liar do not make another liar look any better.

      What are you talking about?

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    40. Re:Yes by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Oh, my. I love such audits. The staff from the targeted company very prepare PowerPoint slides, checklists, and presentations. And I get to go quietly look at their systems and see what they failed to mention or what they completely lied about, and ideally find a disgruntled employee or two to let me know off the official record where to look. Separating them from their managers is difficult, but well worth the time and support invested.

    41. Re:Yes by caramuru · · Score: 1

      Allow me to generalize sqlewis100's post. The examples provided are business processes that separate responsibilities such that fraud can only occur if multiple parties (e.g., those who print the checks and those who sign them) collude. If such safeguards are built into all business processes, then the probability of fraud is minimized; it is never eliminated. In a mature field such as accounting, best practice business processes contain safeguards that raise the price of fraudulent behavior to prohibitively high levels. The problem with IT is that it is about 500 years behind accounting. There is no escaping IT's relative immaturity. We are vulnerable until we can mature the field. I just hope that it doesn't take 500 years.

    42. Re:Yes by afidel · · Score: 1

      We give our guys the raw logs and security dumps, kind of hard to hide anything.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    43. Re:Yes by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      That was a quick type up, and that looks a bit like a typo - the idea is, that even as root, the really secure stuff requires validation from other accounts.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    44. Re:Yes by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      I wasn't suggesting they were simple - but some times worthwhile things are not simple.

      Or rather, a file system attribute 'validators', where the file would require a number of validators for any write or modification to take place.

      As I said, it's only a minimum sub-set. Many things could be handled by one use (example, if I were admin, I could change any non-admin password, but would need validation for admin passwords). A secondary backup would be needed, yes, but often times not needed.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    45. Re:Yes by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      "Trust, but verify"
      Is a popular Raygun Ronnie quote.

    46. Re:Yes by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      I know. That doesn't make it any less of a valid strategy, though.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    47. Re:Yes by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      No, but it does mean you tried to use the words of one liar for your own little lie.

    48. Re:Yes by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      I did not lie.

      You're just trolling now. I suppose you were doing the same earlier.

      Begone.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  3. why? by sakura+the+mc · · Score: 1

    does anyone think about the abuse potential anymore?

    1. Re:why? by somersault · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not really. It's fun to think I could do anything I wanted, but I don't want to. I like my job, I like the people I work with, I don't want to screw them over. It's nice to have an employer that trusts you too. If I wasn't trusted, I would probably just leave. If they want me to be able to administer and troubleshoot everything, I obviously need full access.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:why? by phyrexianshaw.ca · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This.

      if you can't trust the person at the top: then either they don't deserve to be there, or you need to find a new job.

      when you're the person at the top: you better have earned the trust and respect of those under you. Subverting it does nobody any good in any long term.

    3. Re:why? by StuartHankins · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yep. And a single malicious incident could end my career. A career I've spent many decades and countless hours on. There's no way I'd risk it. And that's assuming that my morals would allow me to seriously consider jeopardizing it in the first place.

      Obviously there are those with different goals and standards and it's not always easy to identify them. I'm not sure how to prevent that -- someone who over the years gradually gets more access and one day they decide to go rogue and do something harmful. Even minimizing the attack surface you usually have that single admin account that owns everything else. Maybe I should read the article.

    4. Re:why? by russotto · · Score: 1

      when you're the person at the top: you better have earned the trust and respect of those under you. Subverting it does nobody any good in any long term.

      For some people, the whole point in earning trust is to exploit that trust with an eventual betrayal. The greater the trust, the more lucrative the betrayal.

    5. Re:why? by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      if you can't trust the person at the top: then either they don't deserve to be there, or you need to find a new job.

      when you're the person at the top: you better have earned the trust and respect of those under you. Subverting it does nobody any good in any long term.

      Ahh...but what if the top-level account gets pwnd, either externally or internally? Doesn't it make some sense to limit the 'damage' one account can do in a short timeframe, until someone notices the breach?

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    6. Re:why? by psithurism · · Score: 1

      I was thinking the same thing. I mean, we trust the custodial crew not to ship all of our servers to china when they come clean up (some nights only one person). Why can't we trust one guy who is trained for, and hired, to not screw up our system?

      In practice our administrators make some bad decisions, but if there is one thing administrators are good with, it's policies. If one were to make some policies: "Don't uninstall anything without unanimous consent from the administrative-trio." I'm sure they could deal (or lose there job). Sure, this won't prevent one schizo administrator from changing the company website to a blog about how the company president is a draconian and our products are mind control devices, but a minimum wage facilities guy could reboot with a CD and do the same thing. Then those changes couldn't be reversed until we had multiple administrators present to put in their passwords before fixing anything under the proposed policies.

    7. Re:why? by KyleJacobson · · Score: 1

      Maybe I should read the article.

      Silly man, if you want to read articles then you should go elsewhere...

      --
      I have worse karma than M$.
    8. Re:why? by NervousWreck · · Score: 1

      This.

      --
      I do not have a sig. You are hallucinating.
    9. Re:why? by RobDude · · Score: 1

      I don't mean any disrespect; but I find that hard to believe.

      Depending on the state/laws where you live, I know many companies will only disclose whether or not you worked for them and your dates of employment. Anything beyond that opens them up to giant lawsuits.

      If you did something that was criminal, and you were convicted, and it was a felony; then, certainly, it could limit your employment options. But I know of plenty of smaller and even mid-sized companies that don't perform background checks/drug tests prior to employment.

      Sure, it could cause some problems; but I really think you'd be able to still have a career.

      But it is possible that what I consider a career would be a dead-end job to you....so maybe I'm just thinking about it on a different level.

    10. Re:why? by brirus · · Score: 1

      not me. i hate my job. everybody laughs at me and calls me names. i get paid diddly-squat. everybody picks on the computer guy, but everybody wants his help. "hey, fix this, hey fix that, what do you mean you're tired, all you do is sit around on the computer all day, what do we pay you for, blah blah..." i'll show 'em. i'll show 'em real good.

  4. sternobread by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yes. Give a team of admins root access. This is common practice. If you need additional auditablilty, deny direct login as root, and have admins use su or sudo to achieve root access.

    1. Re:sternobread by NevarMore · · Score: 2

      Yes. Give a team of admins root access, *SNIP!* have admins use su or sudo to achieve root access.

      Given that its trivial to implement, saves a LOT of hassle with shared passwords/keys, using su/sudo should be the default case rather than the special needs case.

    2. Re:sternobread by goofy183 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That is how all of our servers are setup. I'm just a "developer" that uses them but I believe no one knows the root password for our systems. It is a *big* random string that is printed out by the sysadmin that sets up the machine, sealed in an envelope with that person's signature on both sides and stuck in a safe. In the event that a machine is so hosed that the root password is needed it is used and then a new one is generated and sealed away again.

      Everyone uses sudo for everything. All sudo access is logged.

      The system isn't perfect of course, nothing is, but it goes a long way to the worry of one person having root keys for things.

    3. Re:sternobread by jack2000 · · Score: 1

      So are the sudo logs stored on portable media? Because if you really managed to fuck up the system you might be able to nuke the sudo logs too.

    4. Re:sternobread by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      another idea for this, though it involves a bit of work per admin - it's nice to keep a separate login and sudo-to-root password.

      Create the normal account (i.e. bio) and the admin account (bio-admin) for a given user. The normal user (bio) can only sudo into that user's admin account (bio-admin), and the admin account has sudo access to root. Set up a couple of shell scripts. Move 'sudo' to 'sudo_base'. Create a sudo script which is something like
          #!/bin/sh
          sudo_base -u "${USER}-admin" sudo_base $@

      then a sudo-passwd scritp:
          #!/bin/sh
          sudo_base -u "${USER}-admin" sudo_base passwd

      And the "non-priv" accounts only have sudo access to 'sudo_base' and 'passwd', and only when switching to their 'admin' subaccounts.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    5. Re:sternobread by BrianRoach · · Score: 1

      Syslog => remote machine.

      Done.

    6. Re:sternobread by s4ltyd0g · · Score: 4, Informative

      sudo logs are almost useless for system audit. Run sudo su - and have at it. There are no logs to follow what actions you perform. Go ahead and craft a sudoers file that eliminates all the ways to load up a shell. Have fun with that...

    7. Re:sternobread by alcourt · · Score: 1

      So have one of your standard security checks looking for people who open a sudo session to an unlogged shell. If they need a full shell, force them to use a logging shell (ksh-93 with SHOPT_AUDIT enabled can be configured to send to your remote syslog system as one option).

      Your security review team needs to be examining sudo logs regularly (daily if PCI). Look for people who abuse their access. Look for what people are doing. This goes doubly true for temporary or limited escalated privilege.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    8. Re:sternobread by Phreakiture · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Run sudo su - and have at it.

      The solution here is to follow a reasonable security protocol in writing the sudoers file. Specifically, the default action is to prohibit. Permitted actions are then whitelisted. On a high-security system, no entry should allow a user to sudo su -. Problem solved.

      Incidentally, I see no point in locking down users who have physical access to the DC.

      --
      www.wavefront-av.com
    9. Re:sternobread by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      Well, there's /root/.bash_history

      But if your sudo activity log has you doing "su -", then whatever gets borked up after that is automagically your fault as a matter of policy ^_^

    10. Re:sternobread by sglewis100 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, there's /root/.bash_history

      But if your sudo activity log has you doing "su -", then whatever gets borked up after that is automagically your fault as a matter of policy ^_^

      Yeah, nobody's ever altered that file. Also, make sure you are watching for changes to your syslogd config, lest someone disable forwarding, do something snarky, turn it back on. But then, security is rarely something that can be solved definitively by means of one slashdot comment.

    11. Re:sternobread by orange47 · · Score: 1

      Incidentally, I see no point in locking down users who have physical access to the DC.

      hm, still, anyone with physical access would still probably need to reboot the server to mess with it, and that shouldn't go unnoticed.

    12. Re:sternobread by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      sudo logs are almost useless for system audit. Run sudo su - and have at it. There are no logs to follow what actions you perform. Go ahead and craft a sudoers file that eliminates all the ways to load up a shell. Have fun with that...

      The point isnt to stop someone from breaking the system... There is no way to do that and `sudo su -` for someone with sudo access is just one of MANY ways to totally f up the system. The point is to know whodunnit. Have sudo access logged to a black-hole system under even higher lock-and-key with no/limited remote way in. Then, send out a memo saying "anyone caught doing `sudo su -` or similarly stupid things on the system will be terminated with extreme prejudice."

      Only half of the solution can/should be technical. Good old human capital management (aka fear of firing) should take care of the rest.

    13. Re:sternobread by dilvish_the_damned · · Score: 0

      Fine. "sudo /bin/bash" then.
      sudo is simply not a decent general security solution for distrusting your sysadmin. For proper distrust of your sysadmin you should implement "/bin/nologin". Its the only way to be sure.

      --
      I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
    14. Re:sternobread by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Go ahead and craft a sudoers file that eliminates all the ways to load up a shell. Have fun with that...

      True. I worked with a big variety of mainframe systems before I touched on *nix in its various forms, and was struck by how inefficient this use of root access is.

      Far simpler to say "OK: We've hired a capable and trustworthy sysadmin to handle our machines between midnight and 6.00 am. He needs full access to do his job, and he doesn't need to share his password with anyone else". End of story.

    15. Re:sternobread by mlts · · Score: 1

      By default in most UNIX operating systems (including OS X [1]), the sudo mechanism is the mechanism of choice. Directly logging on root should be denied by default on all operating systems. This is good to prevent root access by someone whose account got locked (better than trying to get all the root passwords changed.) Plus, with sudo, the root password doesn't have to be given to anyone who needs more than user access. For example, if an operator needs access to run a program with another user's permissions automatically, this is easy to do with sudo, and without requiring SGID permissions on files.

      It is always good to use sudo (or at least su) if at all possible. There are cases where this might not be doable (systems and policies that forbid anything to ruin SUID root), but it really does help with reducing mistakes, adds reasonable audibility, and adds a lot of ability to fine-tune access to root.

      [1]: In fact, on OS X, root is disabled by default, and takes explicitly enabling to be able to use.

    16. Re:sternobread by kesuki · · Score: 1

      " It is a *big* random string that is printed out by the sysadmin"

      you know, posting your internal security configuration on slashdot without being anonymous is a real good way to get fired...

    17. Re:sternobread by Sancho · · Score: 2

      Why do you think that /bin/bash would be whitelisted?

      That said, getting this kind of security is fairly tough because you have to ensure that any utilities can't escape to shell or open files that would in turn allow circumvention. For example, if vim is whitelisted, you can :shell. That can be disabled as a compile-time option. But :r /usr/local/etc/sudoers will allow the person running vim as root to modify sudoers. I don't recall if :r can be disabled, because it's mostly irrelevant--you can modify the contents of the buffer and :w! /usr/local/etc/sudoers

      SELinux (or equivalent) is really required to be absolutely sure. Of course, you still do the sudo whitelist, because you want to do these things in layers.

    18. Re:sternobread by hawguy · · Score: 2

      Unless you are very careful with what commands an admin can run with sudo, there are many ways for him to run a command without it appearing in the sudo log:

      sudo vi /etc/hosts
      :sh

      Now I'm in a root shell and sudo doesn't know anything about it.

    19. Re:sternobread by goofy183 · · Score: 1

      If external entities knowing that big random strings are used as passwords and sudo is used for doing things as root is viewed as a security problem by my employer I believe I have bigger problems.

    20. Re:sternobread by hawguy · · Score: 1

      But if your sudo activity log has you doing "su -", then whatever gets borked up after that is automagically your fault as a matter of policy ^_^

      Yeah, nobody's ever altered that file...

      Agreed, I tracked down a developer who did that the day before he quit -- he uploaded a not-so-flattering picture of the CEO, then tried to cover his tracks by deleting the sudo log (no subtlety like editing the file, he just deleted it). He did the old "sudo bash" trick to try to cover his tracks, but we used file timestamps to link it back to him.

      What he didn't realize before beginning was that I was logging sudo commands to a central log server -- he figured it out too late, there were a couple dozen login attempts to the log server from him after he noticed that it existed.

      Justice was served -- our CEO knew his CEO, so his new job offer vanished into thin air.

      Oh, and developers lost the root privs that they previously just couldn't live without -- the dev manager didn't even put up a fight this time.

    21. Re:sternobread by hawguy · · Score: 1

      it depends what he wants to do -- if he wants to steal your credit card database he can pop out one of your mirrored disks, replace it with one of the cold spares after he gets the email saying that the drive is down, then log a service call to have the drive replaced because the drive "seems to have failed completely -- the array acted like the drive was missing". Then he can image it at his convenience.

    22. Re:sternobread by s4ltyd0g · · Score: 2

      With a team of administrators, you'll have no way of learning for certain who has done what. As you said sudo su - is only one of the many trivial ways. Discretionary access controls as you have described are no better than trusting your admins with the real root password and telling them if you abuse the power you will be fired. At that point, why bother? It's just gonna eat up budget to implement and you are still stuck with the same problem which is accountability. That is to say, who has done what, where and in which manner.

      regards

    23. Re:sternobread by s4ltyd0g · · Score: 1

      agreed there is no point locking down the system from someone with physical access. Sudo is a useful tool. System audit however, is not one of those uses. Which was my point. The GP seemed to imply to me that by simply using sudo and following the logs, the original poster's question would be resolved. Which is of course, untrue.

      regards
      p.

    24. Re:sternobread by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      With a team of administrators, you'll have no way of learning for certain who has done what.

      But you can. With a well built black-hole type logger, you can backtrack any change on any system to the person who made the first 'bad move'. If a person used sudo su - and later that system went dead, or they did sudo passwd someuser and then that user logged in and caused a mess, you will know who made the first bad move and they can be dealt with. It's not for safeguarding the admins from doing something stupid, it's to make them realize that if they do it they WILL get caught and dealt with appropriately. Without that, you can't really trust anyone and you might as well not even bother with sudo since all your admins probably just put `sudo su -` in their bashrc file anyway.

    25. Re:sternobread by s4ltyd0g · · Score: 1

      There are so many ways to spawn a non-logging shell or obfuscate the output. Yes you can lock down the system to a certain extent but there is only so much you can do. When your logging server is down. Does that mean you won't be able to administer the system from the logging shell? I've played with these types of systems before. Send the shell output to a remote server and you can peruse afterwards at your leisure. That get's harder and harder to do. From a logging shell, if I wanted to do something I wasn't allowed, I could prolly get away with it by running find / -print and while the screen is updating, I'll just type in one letter of my command at a time. Have fun sorting through all the output of the logging shell looking for the different characters of my command. It's not as simple has that. What about X applications or administrative consoles running from a web server. Not everything gets managed in a modern environment from a cli. This type of project requires serious investment and in a complex environment, not everything will get solved with singular utilities such as logging shells and sudo.

      regards

    26. Re:sternobread by alcourt · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the kind of thing your security reviewer needs to look for. "Executed vi, log trail corrupted, discipline the user."

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    27. Re:sternobread by s4ltyd0g · · Score: 1

      Yes but as I said in a previous post, a black-hole type logger will only solve a part of the problem. It will not cover many of the Xwindow and other GUI interfaces. Nor will it cover things an admin with elevated rights might be able to do in the application runtime environment. The truth is, unless you roll all your own systems and build it in from the start, the integration required to lock down and keep locked down the environment is not a trivial task. Try and tell a Nortel or NSN company that you want to lock down the system you've bought from them as tight as this and see how far you get with that. Just using a different shell from that which the product was certified on in some cases will cause support and maintenance problems with your suppliers.

      We're talking systems here where the supplier has provided shitty little ftp backup scripts and will not even consider discussing with you the possibility of installing a backup client so you can use the corporate infrastructure already in place.

      regards

    28. Re:sternobread by rilian4 · · Score: 1

      Ah but someone has to have that root access in order to grant your theoretical team access. This still implies someone at the top w/ full access.

      The best solution is still to find an admin you can trust. Requiring multiple sign offs on admin tasks is a gigantic waste of time and resources for overworked and underpaid IT departments.

      --

      ...quicker, easier, more seductive the darkside is...but more powerful, it is not.
    29. Re:sternobread by alcourt · · Score: 2

      At work, I worry about these and other issues on a very large scale.

      The logging shell must be non-blocking. Will it capture everything? No. If it logs every keystroke, it fails. If it logs everything sent to your screen, it fails. The reason why is left as an exercise for the reader.

      The audit requirements have been satisfied for our auditors with command line history logging done in a reliable manner (reliable as in the data once captured is not alterable by the user).

      As for X11 only configs, I tell the vendor they can implement a command line or they can lose a sale at a very large company. Maybe I've been lucky. But so far, it's worked.

      The key is that the end user must not be greatly inconvenienced by the logging so that they do not feel like there is a reason to go around it. That's why I like the ksh-93 with auditing approach. It's a comfortable and familiar shell, but it logs their command line history in real time off-host. (Built into ksh-93, but not enabled in a default build).

      What I look for isn't necessarily what they did after they took actions to evade logging, but did an action occur that could reasonably allow them to bypass logging?

      As a nice side effect, some practices that were bad before are no longer allowed. Don't edit that file in place, check out a copy from your repository into place. Minimize the work done as root.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    30. Re:sternobread by rilian4 · · Score: 1

      I'll say it again. Someone has to do all this security setup. That person will always have enough power to get away w/ whatever they want. This means that having someone trustworthy is still paramount. No matter how much security exists, someone has to implement it and that someone therefore will have access and knowledge of how to hide from it and thus must be trustworthy.

      --

      ...quicker, easier, more seductive the darkside is...but more powerful, it is not.
    31. Re:sternobread by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      All sudo access is logged.
      How heavilly logged? just the commands or all interaction with them too?

      If the former what is to stop someone launching something an editor though sudo obstinately to edit one file but actually editing other files or even spawning a shell while they are in there?

      and if the latter is someone REALLY going to watch over every interactive editor session launched through sudo to watch what is going on?

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    32. Re:sternobread by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Yeah sudo su - is bloody obvious.

      But if the person is more clever they open up a tool that has legitmate uses (an editor is a good example) in a way that looks legitimate but while they are in there they do other things too. Afaict it is very hard to close down all such loopholes without rendering administration incredibly difficult.

      You could log absoloutely everything that the admin types and sees during their session (not just the commands they run) as root but then you have a massive ammount of data (which will contain control sequences that make it make little sense except when replayed in real time through a terminal emulator) to go through to distinguish the legitimate editor use from the illigitimate use.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    33. Re:sternobread by s4ltyd0g · · Score: 1

      I agree with all of your points and I will add one. Auditor are in general easy to satisfy. Satisfying an auditor is not the same thing as locking down a system. The approach you've described is reasonable and well balanced. As you have rightly said there are other benefits as well to this type of approach. For the most part, if we would/could follow best practises then a lot of this stuff will already be taken care of.

      You are lucky indeed to be included at the out start with your suppliers and be able to make demands on application/administrative functionality for platforms which may not even be used by yourself. In my experience, that type of situation is exceedingly rare. But then I'm a consultant so I usually arrive on the scene after all the mistakes in negotiating the contracts have been made.

      regards

    34. Re:sternobread by fishexe · · Score: 1

      But if your sudo activity log has you doing "su -", then whatever gets borked up after that is automagically your fault as a matter of policy ^_^

      I'm a sysadmin. Whatever gets borked up is automagically my fault as a matter of policy no matter what I do.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    35. Re:sternobread by hawguy · · Score: 1

      How will the security reviewer know anything was amiss?


      sudo vi /etc/hosts
      :sh

      cd /usr/bin

      wget -O sudo http://mysite.com/cutebabypic.png

      chmod appropriate permissions sudo

      touch -t appropriate timestamp sudo

      exit
      :vi /root/.bash_history
      remove recent commands from bash history file


      Let's look at the sudo log:

      cat /var/log/sudo.log
      Jan 10 09:57:36 sql-prod sudo: johndoe : TTY=pts/7 ; PWD=/home/johndoe ; USER=root ; COMMAND=/usr/bin/vi /etc/hosts

      There, I just installed my own hacked sudo binary without anything suspicious in the sudo log that any auditor can see.

      Of course, there are other ways to detect this like a good HIDS that is administered by a security group separate from the admins, but I'm just pointing out that the sudo log gives very limited audit ability unless you severely restrict what commands the admins can execute.

    36. Re:sternobread by ahodgson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think you're missing the point. Auditing/logging systems are not meant to provide effective defense. They are meant to let PHB's mark appropriate check boxes on compliance forms and sleep better without worrying what those evil nasty sysadmins are doing. Don't confuse them.

    37. Re:sternobread by alcourt · · Score: 1

      You missed a few things that may not have been clear from my above comments.

      We never give vi or similar commands via sudo for temporary or limited sudo. Explicit in our policy is that any command that permits a shell escape must not be given via sudo.

      More important, for a more complete access (full shell), we use an auditing shell. This provides the SA team the access they need to do their job, but we can catch a significant amount of abuse, and still balance the needs of the business.

      The security review team is a separate team. Not even they have the ability to edit the actual logs. That's a third team.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    38. Re:sternobread by Galilee · · Score: 0

      You can still run "sudo vi" and then drop to a shell. Now you're root. Locking down sudo is incredibly difficult. You almost much have to assume that you are giving away root if you use sudo for more than a very restrictive white-list of commands.

    39. Re:sternobread by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      SUDO access logged = nothing. when it logs everything that my scripts do then I'll be impressed.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    40. Re:sternobread by afidel · · Score: 1

      Except the DB is unlikely to be on a RAID1, is going to be encrypted if you are PCI-DSS compliant, and won't contain full card numbers anyways (again if you are PCI-DSS compliant).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    41. Re:sternobread by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      one of the places I worked, we had a gadget that maintained a list of all the files on the system and their checksums; any changes to the files were reported and reconciled with an existing trouble ticket - this is a heavy sort of process, and was only used on hosts deemed important, but it worked fairly well.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    42. Re:sternobread by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 1

      There are so many commands that can fire off a shell. If a utility wasn't designed to run setuid, it's probably pretty easy to attack if you have sudo on it.

      --
      They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
    43. Re:sternobread by ogrius · · Score: 1

      The issue is that many programs can generate a shell.

      For example, many sudoers files will let you "/bin/vi /etc/X11" or "bin/vi /etc/hosts"

      And if your type ":shell" in vi, you now are logged in as root with a shell.

      Sudo is far from perfect, but it like disabling root login and requiring "su" to become root, at least let you know who most like messed it up.

      When you just have a small group of UNIX admins, it makes sense to just log su for most systems. On critical systems, setting scripts or suid binaries so that they can do typical tasks as their own idea also work great.

      There are ways to secure environments enough, but almost no way to perfectly secure them.

    44. Re:sternobread by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      Who set's that up? A sysadmin I presume.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    45. Re:sternobread by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 1

      So just use one of the many programs that have a shell escape: vi, more, find, ...

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    46. Re:sternobread by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, nobody's ever altered that file.

      Yeah, but plenty of dorks also forget to delete it. Or even if they do delete it, they forget that their shell write a new one as soon as they log out :P

      Some script kiddie left a rootkit on my Redhat 4 box back in '98 or so using a remote samba vulnerability. I traced back through some of the other intermediate boxes he pwned, and finally found a link back to his own box in a .bash_history that also ended in "rm /root/.bash_history"

      Switched to Debian about then. :-P

    47. Re:sternobread by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      sudo fuser -k /sbin/syslogd
      sudo history -c
      sudo rm -f /var/log/secure

      And most institutions will never actually notice. Remote syslog daemons are typically overwhelmed with debris.

    48. Re:sternobread by buchanmilne · · Score: 1

      sudo logs are almost useless for system audit. Run sudo su - and have at it. There are no logs to follow what actions you perform.

      $ sudo -l
      Password:
      User xxxx may run the following commands on this host:

      LDAP Role: ADMINS
          Commands:
      /usr/bin/eash
      /usr/local/bin/eash

      Where eash is an audited shell, where all shell output is logged to a remote server, identifying the server hostname and sudo user who invoked it via sudo. The shell is terminated if connectivity is lost. sudosh is similar, except that it has been revived (on SourceForge) as sudosh2, but it logs "locally".

      Go ahead and craft a sudoers file that eliminates all the ways to load up a shell. Have fun with that...

      That's easy once you have an audited root shell in place for infrequent exceptions. Of course, you should never allow invoking interactive tools (like an editor) via sudo, but that is what sudo -e / sudoedit is for.

      The remainder of the example sudo rules above is something like this:

      ... /usr/sbin/rurpmi

              sudoedit /etc/*
      /usr/local/bin/sudoedit /etc/*
      /usr/bin/yum upgrade *
      /usr/bin/up2date -l
      /usr/bin/up2date -u *

      which covered the majority of regular privileged access admins needed in one environment I worked in. The other 90% of commands that might be used 10% of the time are what eash is for.

    49. Re:sternobread by buchanmilne · · Score: 1

      DON'T PROVIDE EDITOR ACCESS VIA sudo, BUT VIA sudo -e, OR sudoedit!!!!!

      This problem has been known, and solved, for a long time.

    50. Re:sternobread by buchanmilne · · Score: 1

      No, the security reviewer should ask why you are allowing 'sudo vi' when you should be allowing 'sudoedit'. But, most security reviewers I have met seem to not know anything that isn't installed by default on Solaris or AIX.

    51. Re:sternobread by buchanmilne · · Score: 1

      Well, there's /root/.bash_history

      Which is useless for auditing purposes. For example, instead of using 'exit' or CTRL-d, use 'kill -9 $$', and see if it gets updated ...

    52. Re:sternobread by buchanmilne · · Score: 1

      If it logs everything sent to your screen, it fails.

      Why does it fail on this account? Excessive logging on chatty commands (e.g. 'tail -f verbose_log_file') ?

      The key is that the end user must not be greatly inconvenienced by the logging so that they do not feel like there is a reason to go around it. That's why I like the ksh-93 with auditing approach. It's a comfortable and familiar shell, but it logs their command line history in real time off-host. (Built into ksh-93, but not enabled in a default build).

      What I look for isn't necessarily what they did after they took actions to evade logging, but did an action occur that could reasonably allow them to bypass logging?

      Like running a shell they prefer (for some reason), or the one that stipulated as being the required shell for the admin user of an expensive proprietary application?

      Have you looked at something like sudosh or it's AWOL-but-enterprise-variant, eash?

    53. Re:sternobread by alcourt · · Score: 1

      Since sudo isn't installed by default on Solaris, does that include that too? Neither is rsync, and for years, SSH.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    54. Re:sternobread by alcourt · · Score: 1

      We used to use rootsh (very similar to sudosh), but killed it because of some nasty cases where users could go into vi, and enter escape sequences to do nasty things to the person reading the audit log in less or vi. We also realized that rootsh's lack of remote logging meant that a clever user could do something nasty then write an at job to clean up the logs (including of the atjob itself running or being scheduled) erasing all history of their nastiness. After catching one person who was doing things like that, we had little choice but to accept that on-host logging was never acceptable.

      Anything that logs what is sent to your screen means your security log will eventually have sensitive information like cleartext passwords, maybe even a credit card number. Now your security log must be treated at all times as a potential repository of such information. Logging too much is just as bad as logging too little.

      Users here have been well educated that they are not to change shells. Vendors have never required an install as full root that also required a non-standard shell. It's always a tradeoff. I like the ksh-93 solution partially because it is freely available, partially because it just works. Our logging requirement has been consistently the command line history, never full keystroke. It isn't intended to stop every admin. It's intended to provide protection against those cases where you must give temporary full root to an application contact. Putting such limitations there is much more reasonable.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    55. Re:sternobread by RichiH · · Score: 1

      We have a custom-patched ssh daemon on the really important systems that will log, and play back, _everything_ that is done over them. Those logs are, in turn, kept in a safe place.

      And yet I agree: you can not guard against any and all threats. And you have to trust _someone_. For example, I have full access to all of those logs. Yes, that includes deleting them.

      But to quote myself: "Why would I?"

    56. Re:sternobread by RichiH · · Score: 1

      sudo vim

      Then have at it. Seems you missed something in your defense setup.

    57. Re:sternobread by synthesizerpatel · · Score: 1

      sudo has a pretty good manpage, you should check it out as this exact situation is covered.

      noexec

      If set, all commands run via sudo will behave as if the NOEXEC tag has been set, unless overridden by a EXEC tag. See the description of NOEXEC and EXEC below as well as the " PREVENTING SHELL ESCAPES " section at the end of this manual. This flag is off by default.

  5. respect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Maybe instead of worrying about your sysadmin, you should treat him/her with respect.

    Try and remember how valuable they are when your stuff is NOT broken and remember THEY keep it humming along day after day after day........

    1. Re:respect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It isn't about respect, necessarily. I am a sysadmin that has the keys to a lot of things and I have wondered about this very problem. It isn't about how much respect I deserve but it would be nice to a have a distributed method in the event of some sort of catastrophe or something as simple as being sick.

    2. Re:respect by 91degrees · · Score: 2

      Your reason for respecting your sysadmin should be that he or she is a compatent capable individual who keeps the network running.

      It should not be that if you don't, then you lose control of your network.

    3. Re:respect by somersault · · Score: 1

      I keep a log of usernames and passwords for everything in a file in a shared area accessible only by Administrators. A couple of directors have access to it, and one other IT guy.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    4. Re:respect by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You keep your passwords in a network share? Are you schizophrenic or just incompetent?

      I hope that file is fucking well encrypted ... but even in that case, it's just a bad idea.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    5. Re:respect by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Agreed, catastrophes are a huge issue. An additional one I know of is some people with no ability to reciprocate respect, who could one day (or already have) administrative access to systems.

      These people need checks and balances. If they decide to quit, they would likely do something slightly harmful for "fun" unless someone got to their account first. Most likely the only safe way to let them go would be to literally "terminate" them.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    6. Re:respect by Minwee · · Score: 2

      I typically keep that kind of information written down and sealed inside a plain white envelope labelled "Plain White Envelope" in my handwriting and placed in a secure location. If anything happens and someone needs access all they need to do is open that up and use the login information they find inside.

      If the envelope is ever opened and I still work there then I need to do a security audit and change all of the passwords. If I don't work there any more then either I have been hit by a bus, or my manager has done something unimaginably stupid like letting me go and either way it's no longer my problem.

      That helps me feel more comfortable about the business and if my replacement can't figure out how to use what I have left for him or her then I can be secure in the knowledge that the problem is with the hiring process and not my documentation.

    7. Re:respect by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

      You should respect us because of all those reasons. And because we keep your backups, including that embarrassing slashfic about your boss and optimus prime you keep writing.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    8. Re:respect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and we've got the cctv tape of what you were doing when you read that slashfic. Geez, it's no wonder why that German opossum is cross-eyed.

    9. Re:respect by somersault · · Score: 1

      What would your ideal solution be? I suppose a printout would be okay.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    10. Re:respect by mlts · · Score: 1

      If it is in TrueCrypt volume and accessed by not just a passphrase, but a keyfile (or keyfiles), it can be stored pretty securely (assuming secure storage of the keyfiles and non-hacked endpoints). Downside of this method is no ability have multiple users writing to it at the same time, so changes in passwords have to be propagated via different means.

    11. Re:respect by kiwimate · · Score: 1

      People have been worrying about this issue since before there were sysadmins...nearly two thousand years, in fact. It's not about respect - it's about how well do I know this person, how well do you know anyone, how much "trust" is too much, and, well, what if they're in a car accident and suddenly incapacitated for four weeks and they are literally the only person who can do a, b, and c?

    12. Re:respect by Sancho · · Score: 1

      You get a safe, store the root password(s) in envelopes in the safe signed by the admin. The key to the safe is in the hands of an administrative assistant, the CEO, whomever.

      In the event of a plane crash, the CEO can authorize the opening of the safe to get the passwords. When they are used or the passwords are changed, you obviously must update the contents of the safe.

    13. Re:respect by somersault · · Score: 1

      For root passwords that's fine, but what about things like logins on various websites, and various services? I'm thinking a KeePassX database after someone else mentioned it. We're a small-medium engineering firm. Data security is of course important, but I don't get why storing passwords on the network is such a bad idea. If someone can get into a share that only the Administrators group has access to, they can access basically all of our other important data as well. With further login details they could of course cause us some trouble, but I'd be a lot more wary of people quietly syphoning off data rather than trying to cause any real trouble. Someone who can quietly get access to our data over long periods of time is in a much better position to gain than someone who is blowing stuff up for shits and giggles.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    14. Re:respect by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      Most likely the only safe way to let them go would be to literally "terminate" them.

      Trouble is, "they'll be back"...

      okay, okay, it's a stretch. What can I say, it's Monday. And I can't even figure out if this is a Terminator joke or a zombie joke... ;o)

      --
      "I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
    15. Re:respect by GNUALMAFUERTE · · Score: 1

      It is absolutely wrong.

      Passwords should be stored only in two places: Your head, and the safe.

      --
      WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
    16. Re:respect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "shared area" (eg. /home/staffdocs) != "network share" (eg. boners:\\freeforall\).

      Are *you* schizophrenic (which don't see being particularly relevant to the question - schizophrenics wouldn't need to keep their passwords anywhere as the voices will just tell them the passwords as they are needed) or are you incompetent at comprehending English?

      Maybe the file in the shared area accessible only by the other IT guy and the directors is actually a lever-arch file in the executive restroom.

    17. Re:respect by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      You get a safe, store the root password(s) in envelopes in the safe signed by the admin.

      The safe is signed by the admin? :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    18. Re:respect by theArtificial · · Score: 1

      Passwords should be stored only in two places: Your head, and the safe.

      Just curious, how many machines do you administer?

      --
      Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
    19. Re:respect by somersault · · Score: 1

      "It is absolutely wrong" isn't exactly an argument, it sounds more like a learned belief or an opinion.

      Why is it wrong? I'd rather have a discussion than just have people spout what they think. I used to believe it was wrong too, but after thinking about it I couldn't see much reason not to store passwords in a more accessible format.

      For example do you also think that users should never write down their passwords, even if there is a strong password policy in place and the passwords change regularly? I remember some interesting discussions on this over the years, and I think it's fine for people to store their passwords in their wallet for example.

      --
      which is totally what she said
  6. Well... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

    We just have an account in Active Directory called "Support" with Administrative Rights across the domain, and the Sysadmin holds the Root and Administrative Passwords to effectively hold total control if need be. He can change the Support Password and lock all of us out if he wishes, or give us the info to let us back in. But pretty much anything that needs to be done, we can do on that account, including adding the PC to the domain itself.

    Or am I going to be laughed at for posting the Microsoft answer?

    1. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or am I going to be laughed at for posting the Microsoft answer?

      No, but you are going to be laughed at for not answering the original question.

    2. Re:Well... by somersault · · Score: 1

      Perhaps a stupid question, but if you're in the Administratos group, can't you change the Administrator password anyway?

      Probably he's changed the security permissions for that account, I just am interested!

      --
      which is totally what she said
    3. Re:Well... by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Or you could add the people who need admin rights to the appropriate group, which is a lot more secure because you can then audit what individuals do. A general-use user account with that level of privilege is generally considered a Very Bad Idea unless you really can't avoid it.

    4. Re:Well... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      no, but you'll be laughed at for having a single shared account that means anyone who logs in to perform some "support activity" (maybe after a few drinks, or just general brainfarts) cannot be determined after the event. This can be a good thing, depending on how bad your admins are (good for them, that is). :)

    5. Re:Well... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      It's placed in a Container we don't have access to. In essence we can't touch that account.

    6. Re:Well... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      I would generally tend to agree, in the growing pains of the company - they hired more lab people then they had computer techs to handle, as such a few labs have generic lab accounts, and whenever one of them gets a virus or deletes something important by accident or whatever, there's no one you can point the finger at because there's no log besides the generic account.

      And the same thing is open with our support section, anonymity with admin rights, very dangerous should someone screw up or should someone want to screw the company.

      However, its a small team, we're only 4 individuals trying to keep 1000 computers running. If one of us were to do anything stupid, it wouldn't be hard to figure out who it was. We would at minimum know the computer used for the support account at what time something bad would happen. Then it's just a matter of figuring out which of us 4 was there and doing it.

    7. Re:Well... by jhoegl · · Score: 1

      I disagree with that method as login names are a way to "account" for who did what.
      So if so and so did this on this day, how will you know with a universal name? There is no accountability.
      Instead, I give people specific access where as I am the "super admin" in this case, however they do have access to "administrator" if they ever need it due to my untimely death or incapacitation of course.
      But there is a strict rule that Administrator is never to be logged into or used. This way, the account itself can be monitored for activity.
      However, I do agree that decentralizing roles helps in many ways. It helps the company, it helps you, and it helps your co-workers.
      Some may see de-centralization as a bad thing. Sure you make yourself irreplaceable, but you also make yourself ineligible for promotion. Besides, don't you want to go on vacation?

    8. Re:Well... by natehoy · · Score: 1

      No, a Microsoft solution is perfectly acceptable. That's not the problem. You can have central password administration in Linux, too. The problem is having that central administration under the control of a single individual.

      You're simply stating that you have the same problem that the OP is trying to solve, but on a different platform. You have a single person holding the keys to the kingdom, who doles out access as he/she sees fit. If that sysadmin were to get honked off at you, he could cripple you and you'd be facing significant pain to recover from it. If he wanted to get access to secrets, he could easily do so. He might lose his job or spend quality time with Bubba in prison as a result of either action later, but the damage would be done. Your company would have lost access to your critical systems and/or be facing reporters asking how your customer database was sold to the highest bidder in East Bumfukistan.

      The question is about spreading around the rights and responsibilities so your entire infrastructure is not under the absolute control of a single (hopefully trustworthy) sysadmin, just in case that person turns out not to be so trustworthy. You should pay attention to this topic, because the system you've described has the same vulnerabilities.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    9. Re:Well... by mlts · · Score: 1

      On Windows, I like having two users for admins. Their "normal" user for receiving Exchange messages, etc. Then they get a "su" user that has the full admin rights. This way, if malware gets user context, it almost invariably will be the normal user that it gets, as opposed to the full Administrator/Domain Admin/Enterprise Admin rights.

      Naming conventions vary. For example, I use "username" and "usernamesu". Other people (DoD) use "username" and "aausername".

    10. Re:Well... by the_womble · · Score: 1

      Its not an answer. It does not solve the problem posed. Using sudo on Linux can give you multiple equal admins, but that still means any one of them can gain complete control.

    11. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing this is a troll, but this is not a good solution on any technology.

      In an AD environment the best practice would be for admins to have an account without admin rights they use to logon to their workstations and access email, the internet, etc. Then use the "run-as" function (been around since at least WIndows XP) to launch administrative tools with their own individual admin-level account. And there are a significant number of specific permissions that can be assigned; not that many people should really have the "Domain Admin" level of access.

  7. In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Rule by a benevolent dictator has certain advantages, and rule by committee has certain opposite advantages. It was ever thus.

    1. Re:In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is somewhat amusing, since the origin of this question arises out of conversations on the Metagovernment list server, where we would like to not have one person be able to destroy the entire project.

      The amusing bit is that Metagovernment is basically the opposite of dictatorship.

    2. Re:In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To get the best of both worlds, we should have "Rule by committee of benevolent dictators".

  8. more people means more auditing by alen · · Score: 1

    we have a few databases where selected developers can do anything they want since they do most of the work there and there is no SOX requirement for those databases. every week mysterious things happen where column schemas are changed, stored procedures are updated, etc with no notification to anyone except when trouble tickets come in because some other application broke

    1. Re:more people means more auditing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you should put a stop to that.

  9. FFS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is this bullshit. Make simple common operations NOT REQUIRE ROOT. No, I know, LET'S ADD MORE MANAGEMENT.

  10. There is a well tested method for that by arivanov · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is called: "Change Control" and usually goes along with "Revision Control" on configs.

    If you change without recording the reason for change and without checking in the result so that the two versions can be compared and analysed you get a pink slip. Voila. Problem solved.

    --
    Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
    http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    1. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anon-Admin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What an Amazing Idea, now tell me who does this? I have worked for 4 fortune 10 companies and 1 financial institution. Not a single one has used Revision control, and only one has used change control. That is if you consider a meeting of 20 non-technical managers who can nix a change with out explaining why, change control.

    2. Re:There is a well tested method for that by daid303 · · Score: 1

      Doesn't solve the stupid admin from logging in to my server and entering "reboot". Which is more of a problem in my case then configuration files (they won't even touch those with a 10 foot pole)

    3. Re:There is a well tested method for that by alen · · Score: 2

      and how many people are always changing minor things without change control because they feel this is their baby and they can do anything?

    4. Re:There is a well tested method for that by vlm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Works, although excruciatingly slowly for planned work.
      The collision of excruciatingly slow proactive planned work, and reactive trouble tickets, always is a source of utter hilarity. Usually the end result is you only do planned proactive paper shuffling for meaningless stuff "lets change the background color to be 0.001% darker" and ram thru development as part of a trouble ticket with no oversight at all (well, to make our big customer happy, we've decided to completely redo our database schema and stored procedures this afternoon as part of the ticket).

      Another example, if it takes a month and endless meetings to replace a failing drive during scheduled maint, and a half hour to replace a failed drive at any time, this simply eliminates all proactive maintenance. Much easier / cheaper to burn the power supply out, have a nice long outage, and then replace the whole device, than to get permission to blow dust out of the air filter.

      The end result is usually much worse than it was at the beginning.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    5. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and how many people are always changing minor things without change control because they feel this is their baby and they can do anything?

      One pink slip can change a LOT of behavior amongst the survivors.

    6. Re:There is a well tested method for that by vlm · · Score: 1

      and how many people are always changing minor things without change control because they feel this is their baby and they can do anything?

      That's because the development server IS the production server, for whatever reasons. Its not a maintenance procedure problem, but a design problem way upstream of scheduled maintenance.

      The other scenario is when you're breaking individual (or world wide) new ground. It works when a huge team can spend months debating the route and design for some new railroad tracks, however an operating engineer needs full and instant discretion of how and when to work the throttle and brake levers.

      There's some things that aren't well defined. You grow your OSPF areas until they blow up, then you make multiple areas. How do you know when they'll blow up? Well, pretty much you don't, unless you estimate so low that you go bankrupt on hardware costs...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    7. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have worked for 4 fortune 10 companies and 1 financial institution. ... only one has used change control.

      Care to post that list? Because that's four out of five companies I wouldn't trust with my credit card.

      Or was this a while ago? 10 years ago very few companies took config management seriously, except on certain platforms (such as IBM mainframes.) With PCI, SOX, GLBA, HIPAA, and all the rest of the regulatory soup out there, I would expect they've all had to put some process around their change management practices.

    8. Re:There is a well tested method for that by BattleCat · · Score: 1

      AOL engineers are extensively using revision control in production environments.

    9. Re:There is a well tested method for that by alen · · Score: 1

      and unless you break something really bad or cause a big problem with a SOX audit no one is going to care since it costs $30,000 or so to hire a new person

    10. Re:There is a well tested method for that by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      It may not solve the problem, but the pink slip will solve recurrences of the problem.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    11. Re:There is a well tested method for that by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      we do this - there's a spreadsheet (well, got to have something right) that gets updated whenever anyone dials in to a customer site, even if you did nothing. If you do something when dialled in, that gets logged too.

      I don't know if failing to update it is a pink-slippable offence, but you will get a severe b*ll*cking if you fail to do it twice.

      BTW, our customers are police, fire and ambulance control centres. Maybe that makes us different to the usual, but it's simple and works well. If we could get rid of the spreadsheet that's been used forever and I'm sure still is simply because "that's the way we've always done it" then it might be less of a chore. Does anyone have suggestions for a replacement?

      The trick, BTW, is to start doing it and keep doing it. After a short period of grumbling about the 'overhead' people will get used to it, and like all good ideas, will accept it once their inertia is overcome.

    12. Re:There is a well tested method for that by JamesP · · Score: 1

      Another example, if it takes a month and endless meetings to replace a failing drive during scheduled maint, and a half hour to replace a failed drive at any time, this simply eliminates all proactive maintenance. Much easier / cheaper to burn the power supply out, have a nice long outage, and then replace the whole device, than to get permission to blow dust out of the air filter.

      The end result is usually much worse than it was at the beginning.

      Of course the first one follows all ITIL processes

      How long the corporate world will see that CMMI and ITIL are the (very expensive) equivalent of 'power crystals' and astrology?! Oh yeah, that's right, NEVER

      --
      how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    13. Re:There is a well tested method for that by JWSmythe · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Another example, if it takes a month and endless meetings to replace a failing drive during scheduled maintenance, and a half hour to replace a failed drive at any time, ...

          Sadly enough, I've had a simple drive replacement tied up in meetings and other office politics for months. Write up a proposal for change, sit in meetings where various department heads without a clue discuss the potential hazards, write up the rollback process (for changing a drive?). Your plans are torn apart and put back together. Departmental announcements, customer notifications, etc, etc. Accounting wants numbers, and proposals from 3 sources for the cost of a replacement drive (which you have 5 of in the datacenter, and a regular supplier). You're sitting there with the mind numbing noise flowing past. All you can think is "the array was set up with no hot spare. It's running in a degraded mode. Change the damned drive." Of course, complaints of slow drive performance are scattered throughout the meeting.

          Two months and more meetings than you can remember later, they slate it for an arbitrary windows. Saturday at 3am. Not only change it, but you are required to stay while it rebuilds, "just in case...". Just in case? You have me working 8 to 7 Monday through Friday, weekends on demand (which are every weekend) AND you want me to blow off Saturday night to do the change? Ah who cares, I don't need sleep.

          Then Thursday afternoon before the schedule change is done, a second drive in the array fails, and the whole thing is down. All the same people who were in on the meetings start screaming "How could you let this happen?!"

          Thursday afternoon becomes Thursday night, and by Friday morning you have the array back up and working, through some dumb luck. (crossing fingers, praying to whatever gods may be listening, and tapping the drive with a screwdriver at boot time to make it spin up). The only planning that helped is that you keep a change of clothes and a toothbrush in the car, since you don't have time to go home once you're done. In doing the work, you notice the same thing happening to a neighboring machine. Damned aging hardware. So you just change it without the mess that accompanied the first change. Not only are you bitched out for not fixing the first array in time, but you get it twice as bad for fixing the other one before it became a problem. How could you have independent thought? How could you make a change without proper authorization?

          The only thoughts still in your head are "I hate this job", "my car keys are in my pocket, and I could just leave." Is this the day you quit? Maybe, just maybe. Just one more thing, and that'll be it. I don't need this shit.

          Friday afternoon, not sleeping since Wednesday night, you are told "Do [some other task] after hours tonight." No, you won't get paid any overtime since you're on salary. The task will take at least 8 hours, and they need it done before Saturday morning. Do you scratch out a resignation with a sharpie on the CEO's wall at 2am, or do you just walk out?

          I really hated that job.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    14. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1. Worked at a DOE lab that had no change or revision control. We all (on our team) had the root password as well (although the majority of the time you used keytabs and kerberos to get your work done; everyone was a gentleman and scholar about being on the up and up about not using the root pass unless you absolutely needed to).

      Posted Anon for obvious reasons.

    15. Re:There is a well tested method for that by sglewis100 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sadly enough, I've had a simple drive replacement tied up in meetings and other office politics for months. Write up a proposal for change, sit in meetings where various department heads without a clue discuss the potential hazards, write up the rollback process (for changing a drive?).

      Not that I don't agree that some companies make change management more than it needs to be (mine does it OKAY), but I bet the guy I knew years ago who changed a drive on a RAID-5 array had thought about testing and rollback. You see, he received the replacement drive late in the day, ran into the data center, popped out a drive, popped in the new drive, and went home. Sadly, he had pulled the wrong drive.

    16. Re:There is a well tested method for that by russotto · · Score: 1

      How long the corporate world will see that CMMI and ITIL are the (very expensive) equivalent of 'power crystals' and astrology?! Oh yeah, that's right, NEVER

      Some of the smarter(?) ones already have. Unfortunately, they believe in power crystals because their personal astrologer told them they work.

    17. Re:There is a well tested method for that by arivanov · · Score: 1

      I have worked in various telecoms and Internet related outfits in various capacities (sysadmin, architect, strategist, researcher, network engineer, "cleaner" - anyting and everything). 12+ years now. _EVERYONE_ in every area I have ever worked had change control even as far back as the heyday of the early dot-bomb. I have also seen more than one person being pink-slipped for not following it.

      I have interviewed a couple of times for jobs in financial industry shops (one of the top 5 banks and one of the leading hedge funds) - both had change control with multiple approval levels for each change and revision control on all configs at least for the area which I was interviewing for.

      A shop that has no change control and no revision control on configurations needs a cluebat, not a distributed administration system.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    18. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats nice. Totally does not solve the problem of the crazed admin taking control of the system and doing what ever they want as they are quitting the company. Remember that guy in SF who took control of the LAN/WAN? Yeah, I know he was taken to prison and court. Still would have been nice to prevent that in the first place. We all know that management is not going to start treating the senior admin any better, so that is out of the question.

    19. Re:There is a well tested method for that by IICV · · Score: 1

      That is if you consider a meeting of 20 non-technical managers who can nix a change with out explaining why, change control.

      Preventing change from ever happening is a very effective way of controlling it.

    20. Re:There is a well tested method for that by JWSmythe · · Score: 2

      hehe.

          Sorry, I had to laugh.

          That has more to do with check your work than it does with the prolonged control processes that businesses put in place. I've seen the control processes made by committee fail miserably. Sure, they want all this stuff done. The 400 point checklist frequently misses some essential piece, like "is it the right drive?" and "verify it's rebuilding properly". The last step would have screamed "You're doing it wrong".

          If there's no clear indication of which drive to change, I tend to be very cautious. Most good arrays have a nice friendly indicator light. The rest, I take my time, and make sure I'm right before yanking anything out. That would also indicate the difference between a datacenter monkey and a good SysAdmin.

          That same place was very fond of sending replacement parts to the datacenter, for their "tech" to install. I've known a lot of datacenters, where their "tech" was the security guard. Sure, I trust him to follow simple instructions (Find the machine labeled X. Reboot it.) Sometimes even those simple instructions are screwed up. There's nothing like getting a database server rebooted in the middle of the day, when you asked for some other server to be rebooted.

          Talking the "tech" through fixing the array after they swapped the wrong drive is always entertaining. "Entertaining" roughly translates to "I've pulled out all my hair, I now want to drive up there and shoot him."

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    21. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an idiot.
      Replace the fucking drive at the very moment you've noticed the failure, then start the bureaucratic process.
      What's the point in letting the whole thing crash?

    22. Re:There is a well tested method for that by hags2k · · Score: 1

      Not that I don't agree that some companies make change management more than it needs to be (mine does it OKAY), but I bet the guy I knew years ago who changed a drive on a RAID-5 array had thought about testing and rollback. You see, he received the replacement drive late in the day, ran into the data center, popped out a drive, popped in the new drive, and went home. Sadly, he had pulled the wrong drive.

      That made me feel a little ill. Like that feeling you get when you dream about being in a car accident.

    23. Re:There is a well tested method for that by AchilleTalon · · Score: 2
      All this reminds me something I was fortunate enough to see happening without being involved and responsible for all the shit that results from it.

      Once a day, we had a change to do and this change need to be coordinate with a mainframe change. We were there to test the procedure on test environment, with the test mainframe partition. In the operators' room, there is three levels of desk, each level seeing what is going on on the other level. It was very like the Star Trek Enterprise command room or something at the DoD and Pentagon, anyway, so, here was all these mainframe guys watching each other for this test on the mainframe test partition. This was preparatory work for the real thing. Then, guess what happened? They shutdown the whole mainframe production live partition of a banking transactionnal system rather than doing it with the test partition. I remind you, there was three levels of authorities involved here.

      So, this kind of thing doesn't guarantee shit won't happen, because shit happens!

      I agree that a formal procedure must be followed, but don't be fooled, this will not prevent all the shit to happen. So, don't make this procedure so cumbersome that no real work can be done within a month. Because, I have seen also this counterpart where everyone hired for their technical skills ends up filling forms, attending no-ending meetings, waiting for approvals, etc. And finally, most of the work time is consume by the maniaco-bureaucratic procedures, which do not prevent shit to happen anyway. It's just to some extend ass covering.

      The real solution would be to automate the sysadmin. But we are not there yet.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    24. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like it isn't "your" server.

    25. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked for a very large telecom. They allegedly had change control, but in practice, the month of meetings was painful enough that everybody just installed a back door on their system so they could get around the change control when work actually needed to get done.

    26. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Change paperwork and process is just awful. That and those same 20 non-technical managers most of the time don't even understand what they're signing-off on.

    27. Re:There is a well tested method for that by ARos · · Score: 1

      The most incisive analysis of "A Day in the Life of a Jr. level SA" I've seen on /.

    28. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Frellco · · Score: 1

      Devil's Advocate would say that your example of upgrading a driver could have serious repurcussions if that driver broke builds or functionality or introduced bugs in an otherwise solid platform. That is a fundamental reason such changes *should* be reviewed by a group of folks who actually know which way is up.

      I would agree, just arbitrary dept. heads in most companies is a Bad Idea(tm), but a group of hand-picked folks who actually know the requirements of the active projects is a very Good Thing(tm).

      It always, of course, depends on the scenario of your environment.

    29. Re:There is a well tested method for that by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Been there, done that, STILL doing that... Where's my crate of t-shirts?

      FYI, my latest IT rant involves troubleshooting isolated network connectivity issues. At first glance, it would seem like blocked ports, but then the traffic capture wasn't adding up with the real-time data being analyzed. So it's not a firewall issue, and no physical connectivity is 100% blocked from each workstation. We have packet blender in the mix someplace.

      Turns out the issue was a smart switch causing all sorts of hell mapping ports to MAC addresses. Why? because some jackass decided to loop a patch cable from one port back into another ON THE SAME DAMN SWITCH!!! You would think Dell branded switches would be intelligent enough to ignore both ports in such an event. Obviously not. Grrrr

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    30. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, a car accident is much better than having to face CxOs as to why the entire company is down.

    31. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then that financial institute fails federal audit requirements and should be shutdown / fined out of business.

      Sarbanes Oxley audits *REQUIRE* auditable revision and change controls, period.

    32. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly enough, I've had a simple drive replacement tied up in meetings and other office politics for months. Write up a proposal for change, sit in meetings where various department heads without a clue discuss the potential hazards, write up the rollback process [...]

      The saddest part is that a drive replacement is not a change. It's operational maintenance, or, depending on company policy, emergency response.

    33. Re:There is a well tested method for that by CompMD · · Score: 2

      We do it, a major publicly traded international company with thousands of employees. Its not hard: make /etc a repository (we like mercurial), have puppet manage your servers, and revision control the server config files on the puppetmaster (again, mercurial helps here).

    34. Re:There is a well tested method for that by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      Everyone needs to believe into something, except the sysadmin.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    35. Re:There is a well tested method for that by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          Three words. Spanning Tree Protocol. :)

          I won't even bother ask which Dell switch you're using, because I've seen enough stupid errors with the Dell switches that I've used. You could tell me leprechauns jumped out of the 1000baseFX ports, danced a jig, and jumped back in, and I'd believe you. :) If their version of STP is broken, I wouldn't be surprised in the least. Then again, some rocket scientist may have disabled it for faster connect times. I don't remember if it's disabled from the factory or not. I cringe when I hear someone say "set all the ports to 100baseTX, and turn STP off". It's not surprising when I hear something catastrophic happened later on.

          I saw almost exactly the wiring scenario you're talking about. From the main switch, they had 6 switches chained down 5 racks. I spent ... well, quite a while ... following cables. The first switch in the chain was attached to the main switch (as I already mentioned). The 5th in the chain also was directly attached to the switch, *AND* was in the chain. At least the main switch was a decent one (Cisco Catalyst 5500), so it just stopped the nonsense. I was diagnosing another problem, and found it. {sigh} Oh ya, the original problem was a complaint that connectivity was terrible on any machines on the 6th switch. It was still terrible after I disconnected the extra link. There's something to say for *NOT* allowing consumer grade switches on a network that requires more than the consumer grade hardware can support. I told them to run cables from each machine to the 5500 (13 slots, lots of available ports). They refused. "But that Netgear switch is GigE". {sigh} I then suggested they at least run each switch from the 5500. The result? Problem diagnosed, no changes accepted.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    36. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the size of the company nor the type that determines whether best practices like this are done, it's usually regulatory requirements combined with the technical ability of managers. If the manager is smart they'll understand how revision control works, and if they're even smarter they'll understand the CYA fundamentals of change management. If the industry they work in requires it they'll have to implement one or both of them.

    37. Re:There is a well tested method for that by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          I guess you don't work in that kind of environment. You *have* to know the office politics involved before you just go around making changes. Otherwise, you'll end up in a position to not ever worry about the office politics, because you won't be working there.

          I'm in a different position now. If something doesn't work, I expect a phone call. They tell me what they intend to do. I consider it, and let them know. If there's a business reason not to do it right away, it may be put on hold. Otherwise, it gets done as soon as possible. That's usually, if we find it at 1pm, don't do it until 6pm, not sometime next month.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    38. Re:There is a well tested method for that by noidentity · · Score: 1

      BTW, you don't need to indent paragraphs; the web browser chooses how to visually distinguish paragraphs. Usually it does this by putting extra whitespace between them. Indenting the first line (and not inserting extra whitespace) is another way of doing so, used more in books because it reduces paper usage. Thus, using indention on the web, especially indention and extra whitespace, is silly IMO.

    39. Re:There is a well tested method for that by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I should print that out and frame it to remind me what it's like to work for companies that get to be too large to function sanely.

    40. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Zenin · · Score: 1

      It can be, sure.

      With a bit of cleverness supported by a bit of automation, and not only can change control not get in anyone's way, it can effect a tremendous productivity increase across the board.

      Allowing untracked changes to be made at will has a cumulative effect; The system is ever less and less well known and becomes more and more tedious to work with. Before long the only way you can even replicate a system is by block copying its hard drive...precisely because no one actually knows what was done. What that means to the software lifecycle are pure black box production updates and being completely in the blind when problems occur.

      If something worked yesterday and doesn't work today the first question to ask is "what is different?", quickly followed up by "why", "who did it". After the fire drill you'll also need "who approved it". Without rock solid change control you can't answer any of those questions. You're left with only two unpleasant options: Grasping in the dark, or doing a full rollback (and hoping you'll find it in dev...again by grasping in the dark).

      --
      My /. uid is better then your /. uid
    41. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we do; we're only a fortune 500 but use both revision and change control; almost every change we make to our systems makes its way their via a git or cvs repo; we know who made the change when and usually why; we don't use it to beat people over the head if they make mistakes (unless they make a lot of them), but it sure as hell makes it easy to figure out why something broke. maybe you're super special fortune 10 butt needs to get its act together.

    42. Re:There is a well tested method for that by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      Actually, the web browser does exactly what it is told to by the HTML and CSS. You can tell it to indent P tags.

      <p style='text-indent: 50px; text-align:justify; letter-spacing:3px;'>

      As it is, I've never seen any site enforce paragraph indention, probably because it would break other layout items.

          As I learned writing letters way back in grade school, the first line of paragraphs are indented. Optionally, in styles such as business form letters, you can leave the indention out. That is optionally, where it is not forbidden to indent the first line of a paragraph. Maybe you were taught differently, or maybe those who taught you, and therefor you, never learned the appropriate use of indenting paragraphs.

          Typically, I would use the tab to indent, but when web based email clients became popular (and generally online forums didn't exist), I had to stop using the tab, since it was a great way to end up sending the message before it was complete. Tab typically replaces three to five spaces. Again way back in the day of web based email clients, any more than two spaces would frequently be eaten by the web application, resulting in two spaces. Rather than risk differences, I adopted two spaces.

          Using spaces for tabs isn't unusual to me, since I originally learned to type on mechanical typewriters. Computers were just showing up in school for general use around the time I had reached typing classes (around 8th grade) with electric typewriters. With years of experience typing already, the only thing that I had to really adjust for was that you can't press electronic keyboard keys quite the same way that you have to pound on a mechanical typewriter. Well, that and the fact the numeral one (1) key was no longer missing. :)

          I know a lot of these items are totally archaic, and many people on here have only seen them in museums. Some of us had them and used them. We also learned a long time ago how to format documents, and those little social graces have stuck with us. And yes, I'm terribly annoyed when I write out something in a web form, and extra spaces are collapsed to be one space, so indentions and space between paragraphs are destroyed.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    43. Re:There is a well tested method for that by afidel · · Score: 1

      Uh, clusters keep a random reboot from being a problem, if it's a high enough priority it WILL be clustered, if it's not high enough priority to be clustered then it's a minor mistake. Companies talk with their wallet, anything they aren't willing to spend money on isn't really that important to them.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    44. Re:There is a well tested method for that by cowboy76Spain · · Score: 1

      Been there, done that... only that mine was a RAID 1 (maybe 10).

      My only defense is that I was the recently hired software developer charged with being sysadmin because everybody else in the dept. didn't want to be. Now I am far more experienced (and by that I mean both that I know a lot more, and that I know to ask for support contracts for everything and call a contractor as soon as anything I do not know about is happening).

      On the plus side, this mistake was the final coup de grace to a project that was agonizing and could have swamped us a lot longer, if this had not happened.

      --
      Why can't /. have a rich-text editor? Editing your own HTML is so XXth century.
    45. Re:There is a well tested method for that by fredc97 · · Score: 1

      Well I can tell you from experience no amount of change documentation and preparation can help a Sysadmin doing work after hours (meaning after a full day of work and then some) not to make some stupid mistake like popping the wrong drive out, overworked anyone ?

      I've had some worse experience where on IBM ServeRAID controlers when you put in a replacement drive while the array is in 'degraded' mode some awful engineer at IBM decided that if the new drive were to fail while rebuilding the array to a consistent state that they should fail the whole array instead of just warning that the rebuild failed and asking for another replacement (a good one, yeah it seems they sometime ship failed drives as replacement, another IBM genius I would guess). Now everytime I replace drives on IBM servers i'm allways anticipating server rebuilds, but that never gets to the managers or else like it was said earlier in the thread they would have me do this 'maintenance' on christmas eve or some other crazy maintenance window.

      BTW: For consistency's sake you can actually boot a floppy to reenable a 'failed' IBM harddrive and set its status to ONL(ine) although this is hardly documented anywhere and thus save yourself from a complete bare metal disaster recovery on IBM servers.

    46. Re:There is a well tested method for that by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Also, you could try hiring a second sysadmin. One competent enough to understand the systems and can take over if the first sysadmin wins the lotto.

      What's that I hear?

      But that would cost money, it's cheaper to have one sysadmin do 80 hour weeks and the job of 3 people. Well then stiff bikkies, you get the IT infrastructure you deserve. A good sysadmin loves doco and change control, but if your sysadmin is overloaded then change control will never happen and doco will never be written.

      So please, don't blame the sysadmin for bad managerial decisions.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    47. Re:There is a well tested method for that by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Sadly enough, I've had a simple drive replacement tied up in meetings and other office politics for months. Write up a proposal for change, sit in meetings where various department heads without a clue discuss the potential hazards, write up the rollback process (for changing a drive?). Your plans are torn apart and put back together. Departmental announcements, customer notifications, etc, etc. Accounting wants numbers, and proposals from 3 sources for the cost of a replacement drive (which you have 5 of in the datacenter, and a regular supplier).

      Amen brother.

      Good change control is written by sysadmin's. This cuts out the unnecessary bollocks like CAB's (Change Advisory Board) when they aren't needed. The process in ITIL is fine but it's built for every business and in my experience needs to be tailored to your business. In a business of under 100 people, you don't need half of what's in ITIL and it just ends up getting in the way. Even in a business of 500+ you should be able to scale your change management process depending on it's priority and severity, you shouldn't need a damned CAB to get a drive changed, realistically you should be able to get that signed off by at most 3 people (IT manager, Financial Controller and maybe CIO/COO).

      Change control is a good thing as I'd be damned if I could remember every thing I did in the last six months but when it's run by project managers who have no idea about the real world of IT it's less useful then an ashtray on a motorbike.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    48. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They did when I was done with them. It was expensive in engineering time to set up, and an amazing battle with bean counters who were, fundamentally, afraid of losing their jobs, and should have lost those jobs. But my name is remembered very well on those contracts and long-term positions. (Sometimes my company got bought: it happens.)

    49. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "A shop that has no change control and no revision control on configurations needs a cluebat"

      Please tell me how fp you put under revision control a windows system.

    50. Re:There is a well tested method for that by pthreadunixman · · Score: 1

      Google.

    51. Re:There is a well tested method for that by CitizenCain · · Score: 1

      We used to work together, didn't we?

      The thing that really kills me about that kind of BS is that the incompetent managers taking three months and a dozen "change control meetings" to agree on replacing a failed drive make much more money than the people who know anything or actually do any work. I should have gone to PHB school... it's not like I use my soul for anything anyway.

    52. Re:There is a well tested method for that by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Interesting; thanks.

      My point was that paragraph indention very likely was originally done in order to make it easier to visually distinguish paragraphs, to make reading easier. When paper is involved, the approach used should minimize wasted paper, thus indenting the first line rather than leaving an entire blank line between them. But where paper isn't involved, leaving a blank line wastes very little, and makes paragraphs easier to visually distinguish. Indention becomes redundant in this case, at least functionally. Maybe there is some strong stylistic reason to both indent and space paragraphs, but it's odd to do so in a forum like this where you have very little stylistic control over your message, and hardly anyone indents.

    53. Re:There is a well tested method for that by vlm · · Score: 1

      I've known a lot of datacenters, where their "tech" was the security guard. Sure, I trust him to follow simple instructions (Find the machine labeled X. Reboot it.) Sometimes even those simple instructions are screwed up. There's nothing like getting a database server rebooted in the middle of the day, when you asked for some other server to be rebooted.

      Boss: Hey vlm how come "eject" is marked as a mission critical / disaster recovery software component on all our linux boxes. For that matter, why do all our 1U servers have the cheapest cdrom dell ever made as an option? We could save like FIVE WHOLE DOLLARS by getting rid of those cdroms in our standard build.

      vlm: Well, see, when you tell a drone which reset button to hit, you run "dish eject" which causes all still living boxes to spit out their drive tray, so you tell the guard to hit the power on the "one that isn't working". (If you don't know what dish is, it runs the same command on multiple machines).

      SOME rack mount servers have a handy dandy controllable LED light on them. Personally I wish a mandatory standard part of the ATX power supply standard was a multicolor LED inside the power switch itself "OK all the boxes that are working have changed color to red, hit the only switch that is not red"

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    54. Re:There is a well tested method for that by vlm · · Score: 1

      Sadly enough, I've had a simple drive replacement tied up in meetings and other office politics for months. Write up a proposal for change, sit in meetings where various department heads without a clue discuss the potential hazards, write up the rollback process [...]

      The saddest part is that a drive replacement is not a change. It's operational maintenance, or, depending on company policy, emergency response.

      At one place I worked it was a capital purchase, with all that implies. After all it is a depreciating asset, and they had capital budget to burn, and after all, the drive was part of a capital purchase at one time, wasn't it? Took months. Luckily the error spewing drive didn't fail until I got the replacement, nothing as dramatic as JWSmythe's story.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    55. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Geminii · · Score: 1

      Wow, it would sure be a pity if one of the other drives in that array MYSTERIOUSLY FAILED three days after you advised the urgent need to replace the originally bricked drive. :)

    56. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work for one that you apparently did not, and we use both. At the Enterprise level, the change control is stupid and pointless. But at the analyst level, I use subversion to revision control Cfengine config files, and all important system files are managed with Cfengine. Anything changes, and Cfengine changes it back. Anyone puts a change into a Cfengine config file, that change is overwritten in a few minutes when it pulls the config files back out of Subversion. I dind't talk to management about doing it, I just slid it in as a way to make all of our managemnet scripts more consistent. I didn't mention the fact that I subverted the enterprise change system to use somethign that actually works.

    57. Re:There is a well tested method for that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The adage "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" really applies here.

    58. Re:There is a well tested method for that by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          Sadly enough, that has been suggested by some more cooperative managers over the years. Basically, they'd tell me "I can't tell you to do it, nor can I approve of it, but if it mysteriously happens I won't know how it did."

          Unfortunately, I've had to apply this over the years. "I can't say to do it. I don't know anything about it. It would be nice if it happened, and I won't look into how it happened." That is usually followed by "hypothetical" discussion on how it could be done, before I walk away. In reality, folks that work for me know they need approval from me, officially or otherwise, so "mysterious fixes" are never done with potential hazards to the infrastructure.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  11. Sudo + Change Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You can use sudo to grant privileges to run the commands for day-to-day administration to certain individuals with user level accounts. This will allow root level privileges that are logged for only specific commands.

    You can then have a 'proxy' account with the ability to sudo to full root with its password locked away that requires some sort of management approval (perhaps through change control?) to access it. Then, if you have a system go tits up, you can get that password from the safe or bosses office to fix it.

  12. If the single SysAdmin is even half decent.. by intellitech · · Score: 2

    /etc/sudoers will handle a majority of those "simple operations" that require root.

    --
    vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat.
    1. Re:If the single SysAdmin is even half decent.. by JWSmythe · · Score: 2

      And the top programs run through sudo? "sudo su" and "sudo sh" :)

          The article wasn't suggesting controls for a single admin to accomplish a task. They were talking about requiring at least 3 admins to do the same thing in three identical environments to accomplish one task.

          "Ok, we need to reboot server X, all of you on my mark type 'shutdown -r now' ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... mark"

          "Dammit Mark, you didn't hit enter in time. Lets try again."

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    2. Re:If the single SysAdmin is even half decent.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tried something similar on a critical system once. No single admin had all rights, but two groups knew half a password to an account that did. Any two members could gain full access rights. It worked reasonably well for quite some time.

    3. Re:If the single SysAdmin is even half decent.. by robnator · · Score: 1

      Xlnt sig!

      --
      "If...you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning" - Catherine Aird
    4. Re:If the single SysAdmin is even half decent.. by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, have a special shell which doesn't execute commands, but puts them into a queue. The commands in the queue don't get executed until at least two other users with corresponding privileges confirmed them.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    5. Re:If the single SysAdmin is even half decent.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like being in the cockpit of an Airplane

      Roger: "Ok, we need to reboot server X, all of you on my mark,"
      Clarence: "Ok"
      Victor: "Ok"
      Mark: "Huh?"
      Roger "type 'shutdown -r now' ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... mark"
      Mark: "Huh?"
      Roger: "Dammit Mark, you didn't hit enter in time. Lets try again."
      Mark: "Ok"
      Clarence: "Ok"
      Victor: "Ok"
      Roger "type 'shutdown -r now' ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... mark"
      Mark: "Huh?"

  13. how do they design nuclear missile systems? by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Interesting

    look at programs where there is a lot of technical activity and communication activity for time sensitive work

    you can't have a nuclear missile system where one guy can invoke the bombs to go off. at the same time, the system has to be quick and responsive

    so you need to engineer administrative systems where not less people are involved but MORE: you can't do this function or that function without also involving this guy over there turning a key, etc.: all admin functions invoke more than one person. that's the best way to have a system where power can't be abused. its about redundancy and layers of admins, not less admins

    and if people are pursuing this question because they don't want to pay an admin or can't trust someone else with their system, then such idiots get the system they deserve: a broken one and no one willing to fix it at the money you want to pay

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:how do they design nuclear missile systems? by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >you can't have a nuclear missile system where one guy can invoke the bombs to go off.

      People seem very certain of this, but isn't it more a Hollywood belief than one based on actual military experience?

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    2. Re:how do they design nuclear missile systems? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      the military does have overlap and redundancy built into the chain of command. they have to. its not even about civic responsibility, its about having a coherent responsive military when under attack

      let us direct at our eyes at pakistan if you want to worry about such a scenario though. you can get a critical mass of sympathizers with frightening causes embedded in the system to cause a problem by counteracting the redundancy and overlap

      and besides, you have it backwards: hollywood is always portraying one yahoo setting off nuclear bombs. think dr. strangelove, the hunt for red cotober, the dead zone, wargames, terminator, etc...

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    3. Re:how do they design nuclear missile systems? by robnator · · Score: 1

      If you're saying your computer systems are as important as a nuclear missile silo, your sysadmins are in need of a raise!

      --
      "If...you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning" - Catherine Aird
    4. Re:how do they design nuclear missile systems? by rawler · · Score: 1

      What about reading, if not TFA, at least the description?

      The problem-description explicitly mentions dual-admin cases like the nuke, and deems it not appropriate for all admin-tasks.

      "Do you want to reset user X:es password? Please bring 4 more admins."

      Obviously the writer of the question knows of multiple-confirm-schemes and asks for other solutions.

    5. Re:how do they design nuclear missile systems? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      well then i'm saying there is no other solution than multiple admins if you are worried about an admin with too much power

      that's the only answer, there are no other answers

      because the idea of "no admin" is a joke, at best

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    6. Re:how do they design nuclear missile systems? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      That's a good example of both approaches. US Nuclear missile systems had a password introduced to stop a single guy sending off a missile but it was deliberately subverted by having a password of all zeros so that it would not be an impediment. "Dr Strangelove" had far better security in the movie than existed in reality when it was made.

  14. yeah by Ryanrule · · Score: 2

    well, someone has to be in charge. we arent looking to get rid of the ceo, despite their abuses.

    1. Re:yeah by Toe,+The · · Score: 1

      Actually we are. This question arises out of the Metagovernment project, which is looking to get rid of, well not CEOs per se, but empowered political leaders.

    2. Re:yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well the CEOs run the world.

  15. Eventually, you have to trust someone. by Rogerborg · · Score: 5, Funny

    Oh, the jobs people work at! Out west, near Hawtch-Hawtch, there's a Hawtch-Hawtcher Bee-Watcher. His job is to watch... is to keep both his eyes on the lazy town bee. A bee that is watched will work harder, you see.

    Well...he watched and he watched. But, in spite of his watch, that bee didn't work any harder. Not mawtch.

    So then somebody said, 'Our old bee-watching man just isn't bee-watching as hard as he can. He ought to be watched by another Hawtch-Hawtcher! The thing that we need is a Bee-Watcher -Watcher!'

    Well... The Bee-Watcher-Watcher watched the Bee-Watcher. He didn't watch well. So another Hawtch-Hawtcher had to come in as a Watch Watcher-Watcher!

    And today all the Hawtchers who live in Hawtch-Hawtch are watching on Watch-Watcher-Watchering-Watch, Watch-Watching the Watcher who's watching that bee.

    You're not a Hawtch-Watcher. You're lucky, you see.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    1. Re:Eventually, you have to trust someone. by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 0

      If I hadn't already commented on this thread, I'd sooo have modded that up. Glad others did.

      So damn true.

      --

      The Digital Sorceress
    2. Re:Eventually, you have to trust someone. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was waiting for a punchline about Haitch-Haitch Teepees.

    3. Re:Eventually, you have to trust someone. by FridayBob · · Score: 1

      Thank for that observation, Dr. Seuss.

    4. Re:Eventually, you have to trust someone. by StuartHankins · · Score: 1

      +1 Insightful. Yes it's funny also but give him some karma for this.

    5. Re:Eventually, you have to trust someone. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nice poem

    6. Re:Eventually, you have to trust someone. by natehoy · · Score: 1

      What happens if a north-bound Hawtch-Watcher meets a south-bound Hawtch-Watcher? And do they have stars upon thars? And, finally, are they all named "Dave"?

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    7. Re:Eventually, you have to trust someone. by robnator · · Score: 1

      OMG!! Roger, you are too funny to be so insightful!! be my permafriend!

      --
      "If...you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning" - Catherine Aird
  16. Reinventing history by vlm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    would be enormously cumbersome if they needed a consensus of administrators to execute.

    Thats why you leave changes to the 24x7 onsite operations team not one lone admin doin' his thing in the cube. They're the ones monitoring the systems, seems most sensible if they "push the buttons" on the things they watch. Ideally you have one team that does nothing but watch and one team that does nothing but do, and theoretically they cooperate.

    And besides, DAN appears still to be vaporware.

    DAN appears to be a poor reinvention of flight control software for aerospace from the 70s/80s. Those whom don't know their history are doomed to poorly repeating their past.

    Next up, we'll reinvent the concept of the security office from AS/400, or maybe the idea of hard realtime control.

    Maybe someone out there could could reinvent the concept of the watchdog timer so the "DAN" cluster doesn't go into deadlock? Naah, we'll let them "discover" it themselves, the hard way.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Reinventing history by Toe,+The · · Score: 1

      Thats why you leave changes to the 24x7 onsite operations team not one lone admin doin' his thing in the cube. They're the ones monitoring the systems, seems most sensible if they "push the buttons" on the things they watch. Ideally you have one team that does nothing but watch and one team that does nothing but do, and theoretically they cooperate.

      The concept of DAN was conceived for situations where there is no centralized server installation, nor the possibility of trusted admins (specifically, the case of collaborative governance systems, where there is no centralized authority). Yes, there can be an admin team that is then watched by, well, everyone else. But we're still hoping there might be a more elegant way to do it. if the admin team goes rogue, then a new admin team has to be emplaced and empowered. PitA.

      DAN appears to be a poor reinvention of flight control software for aerospace from the 70s/80s. Those whom don't know their history are doomed to poorly repeating their past.

      I don't know that history, and would (sincerely) love to have you elaborate. Again, the concept is for the enablement of collaborative governance systems, and the idea of having singular users in privileged positions is contrary to the basic concept. Whatever you may think of collaborative governance itself, we're making a go of it and eventually will need to release the software in a way that it is not at the mercy of a few individuals. (Or at least eventually that has to be the case: early instances are expected to be small enough that it won't really matter.) The DAN is our first notion in this regard. The point of this slashdot post is to fish for something better... if perhaps there is something better. Or for refinements that would make it more feasible or enduring. Such as, I suppose, a watchdog timer.

    2. Re:Reinventing history by vlm · · Score: 1

      DAN appears to be a poor reinvention of flight control software for aerospace from the 70s/80s. Those whom don't know their history are doomed to poorly repeating their past.

      I don't know that history, and would (sincerely) love to have you elaborate.

      Well, any description as short as your DAN description would be pretty much identical, so I won't bother. But here's an example: Take your five space shuttle main computers from the late 70s, built by different people and at least two completely separate programming teams. Feed in the same positioning sensors and gyros and all that. A circuit watches the elevon (elevator/aileron) output signals. A deviation of more than X percent from the average output means power gets cut to that computer.

      Works great if the failure rate is low enough that there's only one problem to avoid. Fails pretty bad if there's multiple problems on multiple processors.

      There are also deadlock like problems, look at what happens if all the processors output completely random output because of a weird input situation, you'll average at 50% output (maybe) and that is meaningless for an "eject the external tank" signal.

      Another fun way to combine multiple outputs, which is really old school in aerospace but would probably be new for IT, is combining multiple outputs. For example, you don't test a new autopilot design by plugging it in and praying, you hook up two old tested working pilots each with 1/3 control authority and one new mystery box also with 1/3 control authority and then run them. If the mystery box blows up, the two other boxes have 2/3 of the control authority so the plane doesn't crash. You chart recorder the ratio of the three autopilots and hopefully each always contributes about the same unless there's a really good reason not to (maybe your new one does log instead of linear interpolation). This is more fun for engine computers... You run cylinder 1, and cylinder 1 only, on the new ignition system and send the plane up.

      This is all REALLY old stuff for the CS and EE-control theory guys. This is all REALLY new stuff for the IT guys.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  17. audit trail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are only empowered on certain systems - mail admin doesn't have root on db for example.

    Generally a contract (that you have anyway), an external audit trail (that you should have anyway and that they don't have access to) plus a few lawyers pretty much covers it.

    Also when process gets in the way of business business usually wins - passwords get written down, lending hardware tokens to others etc...

  18. There's a reason.. by malkavian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That you have one person doing it. It's effective, and versatile.
    If you have multiple people empowered to do exactly the same thing, you end up at the mercy of the one that decides to shut everyone else out.
    If you then have a security admin that's the only one to be able to alter the login info, then you're at their mercy.
    With the "dual key" type approach, what's to stop someone installing a back door along with a normal software upgrade? Does everyone have the same knowledge as your prime sysop? Can you afford to have one person that completely mirrors another, instead of distributing the skills across a time (with duplication covered across the team)?
    What if both the key holders are in cahoots?

    Interestingly, who is stopping your CEO from making those really bad decisions, or your FD from siphoning the cash, or a whole host of other areas where you trust one person to do a job?

    Value the person, and make sure you treat them well enough to make it not worth their while to play you up.. Then you'll have no problem.
    Screw them over at every opportunity, and you'll really have to trust their ethical views (you're still usually safe, but it's no guarantee then).

    1. Re:There's a reason.. by lwriemen · · Score: 2

      But ... make sure you have a backup in case the person gets hit by a bus.

    2. Re:There's a reason.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Always mount a scratch monkey?

    3. Re:There's a reason.. by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      I would separate the problems in 2, one thing is having someone with close to god priviledges that can't be trusted (so having multiple of them you probably multiplied the problem too) and another putting some sort of safety belt, the trust is there, but you as admin restrain yourself for non critical operations or collaborative/role administration. Sysadmins are not excluded from Hanlon's razor.

    4. Re:There's a reason.. by Peeteriz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      who is stopping your CEO from making those really bad decisions

      The board; other executive officers, and limitations for class of big decisions that requite a vote of shareholders; (especially in non-public companies)

      or your FD from siphoning the cash,

      Periodic independent audit, as well as requirement of extra authorisation for amounts above X - in any well managed company FD can't siphon all cash without other officers getting dirty as well;

      or a whole host of other areas where you trust one person to do a job?

      There are no other areas where high-risk issues are trusted to one person without serious oversight. In most companies the IT management and auditing is either solved as well, or the only remaining weak point with this problem - that's why the article is there.

      Valuing persons and treating them well is in no way a solution - compare 'security by obscurity' vs. 'security by goodwill' vs. 'security by prayer' and you'll find some similarities.

      Four-eyes principle stops a lot of potential malice, as the likelihood of both keyholders being ethically faulty and not betraying each other is much, much lower than simple chance of one person being ethically faulty.

      Installation of back doors along with a normal software upgrade is a prime reason why someone other than 'your prime sysop' needs to periodically verify stuff; if you don't mirror, then you ask for outside audit of stuff; have secure write-only logging of 'root' tasks to a system which is completely controlled by someone else, etc.

      Of course, it depends on the risks - if the worst your sysadmin can do is shut down an informative website that you have, then it's no big deal. If it's a payment system that can fund a life-long vacation in the Bahama's for an opportunistic administrator, then we're talking about all such measures.

    5. Re:There's a reason.. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > Interestingly, who is stopping your CEO from making those
      > really bad decisions, or your FD from siphoning the cash,
      > or a whole host of other areas where you trust one person to do a job?

      Nothing. Sometimes it is the CxO that is making some clueless change without telling anyone that subsequently breaks everything.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:There's a reason.. by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >Interestingly, who is stopping your CEO from making those really bad decisions, or your FD from siphoning the cash, or a whole host of other
      >areas where you trust one person to do a job?

      One thing that characterizes the C-level exec is a personal investment / personal stake in the end result.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    7. Re:There's a reason.. by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Administration jobs are that lonely now? :)

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    8. Re:There's a reason.. by malkavian · · Score: 1

      Interesting points.. I'm not so sure that the audits are the solution though (I know quite a few people in the financial arena that are adept enough to know just how to fool audits; they're a check, and a useful one, but they're not a cast iron solution).

      I definitely take your point about valuing them not being a definitive solution (you can still end up with jerks on a trip), so I concede that point..
      Would still be nice to be treated well though (the cost of treating someone well isn't that much, and you can't put a price on good morale when things get rough)..

      I'm still not sure about the requirement for 4 eyes being a solution. Given complete access to a machine (including the flaws, and suchlike), it becomes possible to compromise internally to a much greater extent. If you can compromise your machine, then you can compromise someone else's identically configured one (I was kind of wondering how that distributed secure configuration would work if you found an attack vector on your own machine, used it against the identical other ones to alter their signature, forcing them offline, leaving yours as the authoritative).
      It's an interesting game of cat and mouse out there; as far as I can see it at the moment, all approaches are risk mitigation. I don't see any risk removal. But there again, being a long way from the forefront of that arena, better clued people than I will see things I don't..

    9. Re:There's a reason.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      who is stopping your CEO from making those really bad decisions

      The board; other executive officers, and limitations for class of big decisions that requite a vote of shareholders; (especially in non-public companies)

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yeah, *that's* worked out well the last couple years.

    10. Re:There's a reason.. by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      Although in larger enterprises their remuneration becomes divorced from actual outcomes. They either sign a contract with a guaranteed golden parachute, or their pay is so large that it doesn't actually affect them materially - what ends up the difference between a job and unemployment for you is probably the difference between one or two carats in their mistresses next diamond ring.

    11. Re:There's a reason.. by Peeteriz · · Score: 1

      There are two main scenarios - reducing errors and reducing malice. Four-eyes in IT can often be circumvented intentionally, but still does great for reducing errors in important situations. Possibility for efficient after-action audits doesn't do anything for errors, but does wonders for reducing malicious actions, as potential offenders expect that they would get caught and not enjoy the expected benefits; eliminating greed as motivator is a great reduction and just leaves 'kamikaze' guys which are a true minority.

      In any area - finance, inventory, management, operations, logistics, etc - there's no silver bullet solution that eliminates risks. However, many approaches can get an order of magnitude or two of risk reduction. To put it on a simple, though exagerrated example - I don't know the details, but in your opinion does google.com DNS entry have an administrator that is able to single-handedly change these settings? Many trivial things mayh be too risky to trust to a single person's typo or unexpected drowsiness or anything, even if that person is a true guru.

    12. Re:There's a reason.. by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      One thing which would make sense is to separate the ability to grant/remove superuser abilities from the actual superuser activities. There can be a team of people who can grant/remove superuser ability to other users (but not to other users of that team), and it may make sense to have at least two or even more of that team to agree for that operation. There needs to be only one superuser at each time, because those rights can easily be granted as long as enough members of the granting group are present. However, there can also be several superusers at the same time, and none can remove the rights of the others, unless they happen to have enough helpers in he granting group.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  19. more early morning dyslexia... by Type44Q · · Score: 1

    Disemboweling the Cingular Sysadmin?? Huh?!

    >heads on in search of caffeine...

    1. Re:more early morning dyslexia... by erroneus · · Score: 1

      You're not the only one. I saw "Disemboweling" too somehow though I didn't get Cingular out of it.

  20. Audit by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

    Really though if they have physical access to something they can do whatever they like. Auditing and logs can go pretty far but at some point you have to trust the people that run things.

    --
    No sir I dont like it.
    1. Re:Audit by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      That reminds me of a bunch of servers I was moving between datacenters. The guy in charge of IT (I won't call him a title, since he didn't deserve one) had a group change the settings so everything would "just work". Nope, that didn't get done. They were suppose to be ready to shut down, and would come up in the new datacenter with their new IP's. Not only didn't they have the new IP's, but they didn't have the right root passwords on. On a noisy call from the datacenter, I tried to get the root passwords from him. Nope, he wouldn't say what they were. "You have sudo, use it." Sure, I have sudo, but I also didn't have a local password. The only authorized logins were via SSH with the ssh keys.

          Reboot. init=/bin/sh. Oh look, we're on. Set myself a local password (against company policy), reboot again, fix the problem. Oh look, it's working now. It was faster to root the machine from the console this way, than to fight with him about getting root passwords. And for those who don't know, if you use this method, nothing gets logged, because nothing is running to log anything.

          I was talking to someone. They said I couldn't possibly hack this new server they had. I also knew someone who worked in the same room as it. It wasn't a production machine. A quick (and less than graceful) reboot, and I was on the console. I changed the motd to say "There is no security without physical security.", and logged out. Less than 5 minutes total, including me poking around the filesystem a little. It's amazing how many people leave their shell history enabled, AND type passwords on the command line for various things.

          I did tell him exactly what I did, after he discovered it (the next morning). I then reminded him the usefulness of keeping servers in a locked cabinet, in a locked server room.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  21. Trust in the workplace by jimbo1708 · · Score: 1

    You need to decide on the access the person needs when they are hired. If you are getting a system administrator, then make sure you can trust them from the beginning. Even if you figure out a way to prevent any one individual from being the sole point root admin on your system, you still have a brilliant person well versed in how that security is set up that can still subvert it. The key is to trust your root admins and hope they are doing the right thing; the other option is to not trust them, which will cause stress and animosity, and they'll probably still figure out a way to burn you even with "safe guards" in place.

  22. There are Safeguards Already by BooRadley · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Mostly, except in very small organizations, there are several implicit safeguards to keep any one person from doing evil with the systems. They are subtle, but effective.

    Peer review: Most sysadmins are hired by other sysadmins, or at the very least a technical manager. This means that you are hired based on your skills, reputation, track record, and demonstrated attitude. This means that ideally, you wouldn't even *think* about intentionally subverting a system, because that would mean breaking it or compromising it in some way, and most professional SA'a are simply too OCD to allow it.

    Business continuity: Most organizations have several layers of continuity in place, such as disaster recovery scenarios, system snapshots, monitoring, and auditing. This means that unless you are VERY subtle, or work for an entirely incompetent team, you WILL get caught, and the damage will be minimized as you are being put into a police car, never to work in IT again.

    There are no "indispensable people:" If you are a sysadmin, and you are the only one who knows your systems, you have not done your job. Every system and app should be documented, and there should be accountability for every change and decision.

    No technical solution will ever replace good management and planning, and a design that eliminates the vulnerabilities of a system to rogue sysadmins, will also eliminate its flexibility. It's just a lot cheaper and easier to try and run a good shop.

    --

    -- lk t lv ll th vwls t f wrds. T svs lts f tm t wrt bt ts pn n th ss t rd nd mks m lk lk cmplt dpsht.

    1. Re:There are Safeguards Already by Dishevel · · Score: 1
      I work in a small transportation company. I administer the dispatching systems, (Local and Mobile), the radio system, phones, and the domain.

      The owner of the company gives me the evil eye for wasting his money when I just put together a binder with system logins, passwords, software lic and vendor contact info.

      I can not imagine how much shit I will have to endure to go any further than that.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    2. Re:There are Safeguards Already by digitalhermit · · Score: 1

      I would like to be a SysAdmin in your world.

      In my world, managers hire sysadmins and contractors based on contract rates. The system engineers to not interview, but instead are presented candidates and told to fit them in.

      In my world there is a hodge-podge of monitoring tools (depending on which manager was in charge when a "solution" was purchased) and disaster recovery is based on who shouts the loudest for the budget. In most cases project managers do not account for DR. When they hear that their costs will in some cases double, they suddenly don't consider their app to be business critical.. But when it comes to support, which comes from a different cost bucket, suddenly their application must have 15 minute SLAs

      In my world there is one engineer/admin per 200 servers. We work on systems and often are the only ones familiar with that system. Documentation? 50 hour weeks and multiple deadlines (and problem resolution) leaves little time to document beyond an email saying, "OK, work is complete."

      No management will ever replace sound technical solutions.

    3. Re:There are Safeguards Already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then the owner is an idiot who can't see past his nose.

    4. Re:There are Safeguards Already by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      Well. I would not exactly say that. Although in this case I believe that he is making a bad decision.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    5. Re:There are Safeguards Already by newdsfornerds · · Score: 1

      What is this "good management" of which you speak?

      --
      Damping absorbs vibrations. Dampening is caused by moisture.
  23. I don't like your attitude son. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is called: "Change Control" and usually goes along with "Revision Control" on configs.

    If you change without recording the reason for change and without checking in the result so that the two versions can be compared and analysed you get a pink slip. Voila. Problem solved.

    Um, excuse me. What's this? Bringing up tried and true old methods of doing things to solve a problem?!?

    The is IT! We're supposed to reinvent the wheel, give it some new whiz bang buzz word, and then market it as some "new" technology and in the meantime, we get to put yet another term on our resumes which then adds "value". The PHBs and HR mor...staff will then think we have more skills and hire us over others that are perfectly able to do the job but just don't have paid experience in said "technology".

    If all of us had your attitude, the IT industry would lose hundreds of billions of dollars in paper worth!

  24. You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 2

    Hire admins who know their stuff and make sure you have at least two of them with the root password. Make sure they've got some kind of change control in place, and make sure you have them document what they're doing.

    I've been the sole sysadmin before, and I always felt worried that my legacy, should I be fired or quit or hit by a bus, would be "She didn't do a great job because everything fell apart after she left/was fired/was bussassinated". So, I always tried to document things and made sure the boss had the "keys to the kingdom" (document with root pw and locations of my documentation to give to my successor).

    --

    The Digital Sorceress
    1. Re:You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      bussassinated

      I have a new word of the day! Thank you. :D

    2. Re:You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by StuartHankins · · Score: 1

      Yes this is a sane way to do it. We have passwords in an envelope in the CEO's safe. We do occasional cross-training sessions (usually this is our method for implementing a new app -- training the rest of MIS first). This cross-training helps people that for instance only work with Windows feel more comfortable when doing specific tasks in Linux and better understand how things work in our cross-platform environment.

    3. Re:You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by JustOK · · Score: 2

      bussassinated has 2 possible meanings
      1) killed by bus
      2) killed by business

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    4. Re:You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          I love people like you. Well, you're like me too. The day may come where I'm unavailable (hopefully not a busassination), and someone else may have to take over my job.

          I just took over a network. I'm still discovering "secrets", since nothing was well documented. Maybe the root password to a box is one of the 100 passwords in the three documents with passwords. Maybe not. I don't care to count how many machines I've had to use less than traditional methods to get onto, because no one knew any passwords.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    5. Re:You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe DS portmanteau'd two popular workplace procedures, namely:

      "Thrown in front of a bus" which is what happens when the shit hits the fan and someone needs to be the person to take the blame, that person is said to have been thrown in front of the bus.

      "Corporate/Office/workplace Assassination" which is what happens when the shit hits the fan and someone needs to be the person to take the blame and is selected based entirely on political motivations-- maybe the person sucked up to the wrong boss in the never-ending ladder of boss's boss's bosses, or didn't suck up enough, etc

    6. Re:You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by karnal · · Score: 1

      3) Killed by Gary Busey

      --
      Karnal
    7. Re:You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

      "I just took over a network. I'm still discovering "secrets", since nothing was well documented. Maybe the root password to a box is one of the 100 passwords in the three documents with passwords. Maybe not. I don't care to count how many machines I've had to use less than traditional methods to get onto, because no one knew any passwords."

      You poor, poor soul. (hands over LARGE drink) I suggest you set up a copy of MediaWiki, call it the "sysadmin's wiki" and just use it as your personal notebook for all this shit.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    8. Re:You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          I'm not a big wiki fan. I'm just getting all the information gathered into a usable form where I can start making up some documentation on it. But hell, wiki, text files, or at least something more than "We named our servers for historical royalty of Europe from 2050BC to 1750AD". And be damned if someone says they're having problems with "King Henry". Which one? King Henry III. Of Bavaria, England, France, Germany, the Holy Roman Empire, or Spain? Ummm.

          Just kidding on those names, that's not really the way this network is named, but it's pretty damned close. "organized and methodological" seem to not be in a lot of people's vocabularies. (a metha-what? isn't that a drug or something?)

          Thanks for the drink, I really needed it. :) Something to numb the pain.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    9. Re:You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by JustOK · · Score: 1

      front side buses are buses too! they can be mean and nasty.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    10. Re:You need at least TWO good sysadmins... by fishexe · · Score: 1

      4) Killed by busses

      I'm fairly sure there are quite a few more...

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
  25. It's not your only line of defense by plover · · Score: 3, Interesting

    First, understand that Slashdot is only going to provide a hint of what you will be doing. Security is complex and easy to get wrong, and there's a whole lot of evidence of that in the news. If security is important to your company, you should invest in a CISSP to really help you get things set up in a fashion that the industry considers to be best practices. Until then, consider these few generic suggestions.

    Multiple layers of security help ensure that nothing goes astray, or if it does that it's detected before too much damage is done. And separation of duties helps make sure that one rogue actor can't do it all by himself.

    Separate the admin of the box from the admin of the data. The guy who holds the root PW doesn't have to be the same guy who holds the private key for the database.

    Add off-the-box auditing to the actions of root. As soon as someone signs on as root, notification is sent to a different box of the originating IP and it's timestamped. Don't let your application sysadmin be the sysadmin of the audit box! And the auditor should investigate carefully any situations that are out of the ordinary. (This box fell off the network just before root logged on? That's an odd coincidence.)

    Define expected behavior with policies. If you want to run a trustworthy ship, clearly stating who has access to do what with which systems eliminates confusion, and helps avoid where one sysadmin creeps over into other systems.

    Ultimately, you've placed trust your admin to do a job, and you need to trust him or her to do that job. Somebody's got to be root. But they also have to know they'll be held accountable for what they do.

    --
    John
    1. Re:It's not your only line of defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strangely enough, no one is mentioning the Linux solution designed for this scenario: SE Linux. With a well thought policy, you can actually make it so that root does not have full access to the system. You can then go further and create accounts that also have partial access to the system. A typical example is that you may have an account that is allowed to create new users via useradd but not allowed to change file system permissions or install software. Doing a complete job would be long and tedious but possible.

      For Solaris, you may install trusted extensions. There is significant additional configuration, but you would then be doing most administrative tasks via SMC. This allows additional rights enforcement in and of itself. It works in a manner that is similar to SE Linux, but is more mature and has a few more tools to make it a little easier to handle.

      In both scenarios it is possible to give someone permission to install software without providing permission to view the data on the same computer that the software will use.

      The details of these configurations are not always obvious and there are other complexities with security, such as encryption and networking. You should consider getting competent security professionals (see http://giac.org/).

    2. Re:It's not your only line of defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I stopped reading at CISSP. If you trust that certifcation, you're an idiot. Any cert where there are known wrong answers and where the certifying body refuses to fix them, well, that's a bad cert.

      I work in security. I know several CISSPs (including myself). There is 0 increased knolwedge across a population of CISSPs than there is across a general population of tech people. I would not accept a job where my CISSP is required, because that shows me that management doesn't know a good way to identify qualified candidates.

  26. You're not thinking evil enough. by Seumas · · Score: 1, Troll

    Only hire admins who have a family. Make it a requirement of their contract that their child have a small explosive device implanted in them that is tied to the health of the systems that are administrated. Will not only ensure against nefarious activities, but make five-nines and above almost guaranteed.

    1. Re:You're not thinking evil enough. by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      The job market is nowhere near as soft as you've been led to believe.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  27. The Scientology approach by digitaldc · · Score: 1

    In our IT department, root admins are required to sign a notarized document telling their deepest, darkest secrets in order to be given the password. This keeps them in line for eternity, and seems to be working quite well...

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
  28. change consolidation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    how about: a singular sysadmin can make any changes he wants (a policy can decide whether they take effect immediately), but it takes a second account to confirm/commit/consolidate those changes?

  29. Powerbroker & logging by Doc+Hopper · · Score: 4, Informative

    We have several solutions which work together to minimize the risk of root at my company:

    1. Powerbroker. It's in use on every single UNIX system administered by our Global IT teams. Every user has a role (or several roles), and that allows them to execute a variety of commands with elevated privileges. Once Powerbroker is invoked, however, every single keystroke is logged and can be played back. These logs are stored indefinitely; access is very restricted.

    2. Automated, centralized root password management. One of the steps to setting up a UNIX machine here is ensuring the root password and remote console admin passwords match that dictated by our automated provisioning system. Then every 30-90 days (depending on policy for this type of system) the root password is changed to a very long, apparently very random string. I can look this password up if my role allows it, but the lookup is also logged.

    3. A good Change Request (CR) process. Every system that exists in a data center should have a record in our systems database. Once a system has passed through the phases of deployment (Warehouse -> Data Center Install -> Sysadm Configure -> Deployed) any change made to the system must be requested and approved by the owners of the system. This approval is logged, and the date/time of the work is also logged. Sysadms must close service requests within the time window specified by the CR, or apply for an extension or reschedule if they're unable to complete it within the allotted time.
        The downside to this is that you lose quite a bit of system administrator work hours filing and managing change requests. However, this loss of efficiency -- IMHO -- is better than the mayhem that ensues without an organized change process.

    4. Automated forensic tools to monitor changes. Information overload is a real risk with any Tripwire-style system, though. We're still working out some of the kinks on this part of the system. Once we ensure that all normal changes due to operation of the system and scheduled maintenance get excluded, this will be the fourth leg to reduce the risk of super-user privileges.

    At any company, IT must find a balance between controlling user actions and monitoring those actions. In most cases, the easiest approach is to prohibit by policy only those things that might typically result in lawsuits, but monitor everything else to the best of your ability. Combining a Powerbroker-like product with automated root password management -- both with fascistic logging -- is a reasonable approach that works well for many large companies. Combine this with a change management system, and a forensic tool to automatically monitor and notify of unauthorized changes, and super-user isn't really all that big of a concern.

    1. Re:Powerbroker & logging by phyrexianshaw.ca · · Score: 2

      These logs are stored indefinitely; access is very restricted.

      to whom? what you have to keep in mind is that computers operate as single minded entities. when you approach a machine like that: security is currently an afterthought. this tells me that there is somebody that holds access above the other users, basically missing the point here.

      I can look this password up if my role allows it, but the lookup is also logged

      Again, that means that there's somebody administering the logging system. and I almost assure you that even if their logins are listed somewhere: they have full access to remove those entries and make it look like it never happened.

      as a hypothetical situation, say I have a machine that stores credit card numbers on a DSS approved network that's locked down in the ways you describe above. at the admin level, it would take me minutes to provision a machine to replicate the target. I don't mean replicate as in contents, I mean replicate to the network view.

      the replicated machine can be tunneled into place and act as if it was the machine in question. as the admin: I already know what traffic flows the machine needs to produce on a regular basis (SNMP uptime's, network traffic counters, heartbeats, etc) so I can inject artificial traffic in it's place.

      at this point, I can reverse firewall the unit preventing it for calling for help or reporting the changes I make. I can snapshot the drive and move it offsite, while making the changes to the snapshot to remove my presence from the machine and set the loader to write over itself with the snap. reboot into the snap and pull the zombie as the machine comes back up:

      and what will the monitoring/auditing/reporting software see? nothing. everything will check out, MAC addresses will match, SNMP keys will match, even the statistics reported will look like they fit into the graphs.

      Until CPU's are made to understand the "two key" approach to authentication, any machine will be susceptible to weak physical security.

    2. Re:Powerbroker & logging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So, EVERY KEYSTROKE is logged. OK - so you're allowing every password to be stored in your audits - not a best practice for reasons left to the audience to determine.

      Security Monoculture - Single 'root' password, no matter how complex. Once you have one root, you've got your whole operational world. Good luck with that. Yes, it greatly simplifies things. That isn't a pure positive - it simplifies things for exploits as well.

      I think your last paragraph is the best you wrote here - Yes, it's a balancing act. Your choice of balance point is, clearly, quite a bit different than mine. I wish you the best of luck with your solution, and applaud you for actually WORKING at it - that's rare, from what I've seen.

    3. Re:Powerbroker & logging by Doc+Hopper · · Score: 4, Informative

      You've tossed out a few red herrings and a couple of valid points. I'll try to address them in order.

      this tells me that there is somebody that holds access above the other users, basically missing the point here.

      No, I haven't missed the point at all. The point is to distribute the responsibility with sufficient checks in order to ensure that misbehavior will be caught and dealt with in a timely fashion. Is it possible someone could scheme up a way to slide abuses past the admins? Of course it is. But between good backups, fascistic logging, role-based access control, and routine audits by the change control committee, the risk is minimized.

      There's no one person who holds the "keys to the kingdom". No critical data is stored on the machines themselves; it's all stored on centralized storage. The folks who admin the automated root password changes don't have any access to storage; the storage folks typically don't have any access to the systems.

      Again, that means that there's somebody administering the logging system. and I almost assure you that even if their logins are listed somewhere: they have full access to remove those entries and make it look like it never happened.

      Incorrect. I didn't cover this in my original post, but logs are (and should be) stored on write-once media. You can designate volumes on modern storage media so that, once written, it can never be altered without destroying the entire volume. We use this extensively.

      say I have a machine that stores credit card numbers on a DSS approved network that's locked down in the ways you describe above. at the admin level, it would take me minutes to provision a machine to replicate the target. I don't mean replicate as in contents, I mean replicate to the network view.

      Once again, distributed access can prevent this. The network team and the sysadm team aren't the same teams. Every port on your switch is disabled until it's enabled by the network team. Even once enabled, that port must be on the same VLAN as the hypothetical credit-card storage system.

      That's once again where fascistic logging and automated reporting come into play. If a port is disconnected, unless a host has been blacked out with an appropriate change control ticket filed, the port disconnection generates an immediate Priority 1 service request to investigate.

      If a drive is removed from centralized storage, that also generates an immediate P1 ticket. The sysadm's access would have been logged the moment he swiped his badge, and cameras throughout the data center capture the switch-over.

      A corrupt admin can do a lot of damage, I admit. There's no getting around it. But with sufficient logging -- and yes, I include physical surveillance as "logging" too -- they're not going to get away with it.

      the replicated machine can be tunneled into place and act as if it was the machine in question.

      Now this is the red herring. If you've ever done ANYTHING major with credit cards in a data center, you are aware that you're subject to yearly audits of your infrastructure by Payment Services. They do a deep-dive of your systems to enforce a huge number of requirements. I can't go into it here. It literally fills a large book, and they go over it line-by-line with all the admins involved, every single year. I've been through several of these, and each year it gets broadened to cover more potential issues.

      Chief among these requirements? A separate admin/management network from the front-end/back-end network. You can't "tunnel in" to that network and make it "act like" another system. The network is an unroutable private VLAN or fibre-channel connection.

      at this point, I can reverse firewall the unit preventing it for calling for help or reporting the changes I make. I can snapshot the drive and move it offsite

      Ye

    4. Re:Powerbroker & logging by Doc+Hopper · · Score: 1

      So, EVERY KEYSTROKE is logged.

      You've obviously never used powerbroker before. Every keystroke is logged AFTER you've elevated your privileges. I've never once had to type a password after the PowerBroker authentication. If I need a different role, I have to drop out of the Powerbroker session and authenticate into the new role.

      Security Monoculture - Single 'root' password, no matter how complex.

      Nope, you miss how it's managed. Every system gets its own unique random root password, which is changed every 30-90 days. Guess I wasn't clear enough in my original posting; my bad. I have to log into our root-password-sharing system, request the password for that specific system, and that request is logged. If audited, I need to provide the service request # I was working on.

      No monoculture. Every system has its own unique root password.

      I wish you the best of luck with your solution, and applaud you for actually WORKING at it - that's rare, from what I've seen.

      I'm part of a company of over 90,000 people. My little piece of the IT pie is quite tiny. I use the tools; I don't orchestrate them :)

    5. Re:Powerbroker & logging by alcourt · · Score: 1

      Here, powerbroker is banned precisely because it is a keystroke logger in default configuration. We implemented sudo + ksh-93 instead to ensure we wouldn't log keystrokes. We know that very often, users are typing passwords in, configuring conf files for applications, etc.

      Your root password management I like. The devil is obviously in the details of how the password is changed and stored in the database, but such systems have proven to be a very good thing. My suggestion would be to implement a "break glass" mechanism into it. If the root password is requested by the system, it automatically schedules a password change for that system one day later.

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    6. Re:Powerbroker & logging by Doc+Hopper · · Score: 1

      My suggestion would be to implement a "break glass" mechanism into it. If the root password is requested by the system, it automatically schedules a password change for that system one day later.

      I really like that suggestion. I'll ask the Service Design team over our root password implementation if they've considered that approach. It makes sense, and should be a pretty low-cost change.

      My only real complaint about the system is that, on occasion (like if someone changes the root password manually) it breaks. Not something that happens very often, but with tens of thousands of machines, once a week or so I have to do digging through old root passwords to find the right one.

    7. Re:Powerbroker & logging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not use Puppet to push new SSH key to all of the systems. The SSH key can even have a password to make it stronger and you can then share this password with the necessary admins.

    8. Re:Powerbroker & logging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now this is the red herring. If you've ever done ANYTHING major with credit cards in a data center, you are aware that you're subject to yearly audits of your infrastructure by Payment Services.

      Bwaha. I've been through multiple PCI (DSS) compliance audits. They are a joke! Really.

      Sorry for posting AC, but we process lots of transactions - and yes, we store CC details.

  30. Two categories of products... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are two whole categories of products to help with this problem, and as others have pointed out, the problem is decades old - not news.

    (1) delegate "sub-root" rights, with sudo or a similar tool. There are commercial equivalents on Unix/Linux and even equivalents on WIndows.

            The idea here is to limit the frequency with which an actual root login is required and to enable routine work to be done with lesser privileges, perhaps by other people.

    (2) Control access to the "root" account. There is a whole category of "privileged password management" products out there - also known as privileged account management and privileged ID management, based on the respective vendor's marketing department's whim. Basically you scramble the root password every so often and control disclosure of access to that account via some combination of ACLs and one-off approvals workflow. There is typically also an audit trial here, and in some cases a full record of whatever the root session displayed and accepted as input (i.e., VCR playback of the session).

    My company happens to make one of the latter products: http://privileged-password-manager.hitachi-id.com/ - we are by no means the only company to do so, however.

    Ultimately, you have to develop some level of trust in your admins. All of these solutions boil down to "trust but verify."

    Cheers!

    -- Idan

  31. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Simple.

    Hire two sysadmins. Give both the super user credentials, unix, linux, windows, osx server whatever.

    Make sure they co-operate and have no say so in hiring processes for their co-worker.

    If they won't work in such an environment, don't hire them.

  32. The eternal efficiency/polarization trade-off by OneAhead · · Score: 2

    It will always be a trade-off between efficiency and polarization of power. Just like in politics. Decision-making is extremely efficient in an absolute dictatorship, but people have to rely on the dictator being benevolent, staying benevolent, staying healthy (I've seen people's character completely change because of illness), and having benevolent successors (this almost never happens in real-life politics). On the other side of the spectrum, you have democracies with a proper implementation of Montesqieu's separation of powers, which in some instances get plagued by indecisiveness, gridlock, and half-assed compromises that really are not helpful for anyone. (*) You'll find the same principles apply to system administration, or anything that involves power.

    (*)<opinion>Obamacare is a perfect example: started off as a radical reform that would allow America to take back its place amongst civilized nations, was watered down to a legislative abomination. Note that I'm not implying that the president has too little power - this is merely an example of one of the side-effects of the democratic system America is using. I can give some examples of presidential abuse of power as well.</opinion>

    1. Re:The eternal efficiency/polarization trade-off by Geminii · · Score: 1

      Obviously, the solution is to replace politicians with sysadmins.

  33. Driving a car by petes_PoV · · Score: 2
    Trying to get 2 sysadmins to cooperate would be like insisting every car has 2 drivers (and not like a plane has a copilot). There are at least four possible outcomes: one sysadmin becomes dominant and you're back to where you started, but paying two salaries. They continually bicker about the best way to do things and nothing ever gets done (or worse: they sabotage each others' efforts), one just slacks off and causes decision-making bottlenecks or they spend so long reaching a consensus that even the most trivial task takes a week of decision making, timetabling, agreeing and finally doing it.

    The only solution I can think of that would stand a chance is to require:
    a) everything gets documented (you'll know this is the correct way, as all the techies will hate it)
    b.) every week / month all the roles change, if an admin coming into a role finds that things aren't as they were documented, someone gets yelled at
    This also has the advantage that you're no longer completely screwed if someone leaves, goes sick or gets promoted. it also makes it clear to the people in question that the company can get along quite nicely without them.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:Driving a car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where I worked as part of a SA team of six members (just wish I could bring those times back..), we used the "b" solution pretty well.

      Perhaps the documentation wasn't quite up to scratch, but enough that for the most part everyone in the team could handle their one week of "primary SA" role without major hurdles. Each of us did also have our own specialty areas, but those were more visible when developing the environment (i.e. who drove forward the storage&backup area; who improved the monitoring; who was the primary DBA; ...). So, should anything sudden have happened to any of us, the rest could've covered the operations side. The development side would've been temporarily harmed, though.

      And I'd say that each of us was valued, as a professional individual, as well as part of a working and successful SA team with good relations to the users whose work we were supporting.

    2. Re:Driving a car by fishexe · · Score: 1

      Dude. Just because you can put it into a car analogy, doesn't mean you should.

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    3. Re:Driving a car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trying to get 2 sysadmins to cooperate would be like insisting every car has 2 drivers (and not like a plane has a copilot). There are at least four possible outcomes: one sysadmin becomes dominant and you're back to where you started, but paying two salaries. They continually bicker about the best way to do things and nothing ever gets done (or worse: they sabotage each others' efforts), one just slacks off and causes decision-making bottlenecks or they spend so long reaching a consensus that even the most trivial task takes a week of decision making, timetabling, agreeing and finally doing it.

      Or back in the real world, it's entirely possible that you may have hired professional adults, many of whom do not exhibit advanced aspergers.

  34. Password and account management by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are commercial solutions where a central system manages all of your root passwords on each machine. You have to login and checkout the root password to access the machine. You provide a reason and a time limit (1 hour, 4 hours, 1 day, etc) after which the central system changes the root password.

    So you get all the audit controls for logins and the root password is changed often.

  35. How about by 0racle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Everyone treats everyone else like adults and every one acts like an adult? Honestly, if you don't trust your admins, why are they your admins?

    Also, simple change management alleviates most of these problems. Even if it's just a log for what happened so that the next shift or your colleague tomorrow knows what you did today. Then again, I guess that is really back to acting like adults.

    --
    "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    1. Re:How about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone treats everyone else like adults and every one acts like an adult? Honestly, if you don't trust your admins, why are they your admins? Also, simple change management alleviates most of these problems. Even if it's just a log for what happened so that the next shift or your colleague tomorrow knows what you did today. Then again, I guess that is really back to acting like adults.

      How many people who say just trust your admins also trusted someone who they ultimately divorced from. (Trick question of course, Slashdotters don't know women).

    2. Re:How about by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Honestly, if you don't trust your admins, why are they your admins?

      Because trust isn't binary. It is shades of gray, and in the real world, we frequently have to do business with other people that we don't trust 100%. Of course, every con man out there will tell you that you should trust him 100%, and that if you don't, YOU have done something wrong. As a developer, I could easily slip code into the system that completely compromised the entire thing. I could lock out the administrators, and bring the entire system under my control. Will I do it? No. Would I be offended if the company wanted to put audits and controls on my work? I would recommend it, and have recommended it. While I am ethical, I am not delusional enough to think that every developer is. Any Admin that tries to claim that they are above question, by the very claim, is proving that they cannot be trusted.

    3. Re:How about by alcourt · · Score: 1

      "I don't trust you, you don't trust me, I don't trust me."

      Slogan of a good security admin

      --
      "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
    4. Re:How about by 0racle · · Score: 1

      Companies don't audit code because they don't trust the developers. They audit code so their customers don't go on blind trust of the finished product. If an audit turned up you put something in the code you shouldn't you would be at the very least fired that moment, you would no longer be trusted to do the job you were hired for. They wouldn't laugh it off because, well hey, they didn't really trust you anyway.

      Lots of positions in companies are positions of trust. If you do not trust the person in that position, why are they still there? Trust is very binary, you either trust them or you don't. Those you do trust, you trust until you no longer have cause too.

      No one said you trust an admin because they said so, I said if you don't trust them, why are they still your admins. If you have to second guess every thing they do, if you have to validate every action and decision they may make over the course of their day, you are only hurting yourself by keeping that situation going.

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    5. Re:How about by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Only an idiot would second guess everything the admin does. Just as an idiot would second guess everything a casher does. That doesn't mean that you trust them to do the right thing even when there is absolutely no oversight. Why would you have an Admin to don't trust completely without question? For the same reason you would have a cashier that you don't trust completely without question. Because the number of people that can be trusted completely without question in this world is far too small a number to go around, and it is all but impossible to figure out which ones you really can trust, and which ones just haven't been caught yet.

      If trust were binary, and businesses only hired people they could trust for positions of trust, commerce would grind to a halt. There would be no grocery stores. No garbage pickup. No restaurants. No car dealerships. pretty much nothing. Civilization would collapse.

      If you can't imagine a person that you would trust to deliver a $20 pizza that they COULD steal, but not trust them to have access to millions of dollars of uncounted money, you are an idiot. If you can, they you admit that trust is not binary.

  36. The Orange Book solution by McMuffin+Man · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is an old problem in high assurance systems. As other posters have pointed out, as some point you have to trust someone. But you can still "trust but verify".

    The standard solution is "division of privilege". Over time folks have learned that the key is a system which audits everything the admin does, and the one thing the admin can't do is modify or delete the audit trail. A separate person or team has the role of auditor.

    This is one of the requirements of a B2 level system in the old Orange Book model, and you'll see if it as a requirement if you need to provide systems for most countries' military or intelligence organizations. It's rarely used elsewhere because more or less noone else is willing to pay the staffing costs. The solution there is trust someone, and be ready to fire, sue, and/or prosecute if they violate that trust.

    1. Re:The Orange Book solution by Animats · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is one of the requirements of a B2 level system in the old Orange Book model, and you'll see if it as a requirement if you need to provide systems for most countries' military or intelligence organizations. It's rarely used elsewhere because more or less noone else is willing to pay the staffing costs.

      Right. I developed an OS for that model many years ago.

      The key to this is a mandatory security/integrity model. At a given privilege level, you can only run programs trusted at that privilege level. So, if you're running as some kind of administrator, you can only run trusted administrator tools. You can't use a text editor on the password file, for example.

      Then you have compartments, and some tools are accessible only in some compartments. For example, the person or program that makes backups needs the ability to read almost everything, but to write almost nothing. (Restoring from backups, which is done less often, requires different privileges.) The security officer can add and delete users, but can't install programs. All this is enforced by the OS, looking at privileges associated with files, users, and programs, not by the applications themselves. A few applications are trusted, and they have to go through an elaborate approval process, which means they're usually rather dumb apps.

      The "control panels" used by hosting services are a step in this direction. Users can do some things, and first-line tech support people can do others.

      Currently, the big hole is program installation. Installers typically demand far more privileges than they should. In a mandatory security model, installation of an ordinary "application" should mean that the installer has write permission for the vendor's compartment and nothing else.

  37. sudo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is called sudo.

    1. Re:sudo by Elbereth · · Score: 1

      Sudo is total crap. Entering in your own password to run commands as an administrator? Yeah, that's a great idea.

      The only thing that anyone ever does is "sudo sh". Anything else is pointless.

    2. Re:sudo by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Sudo is total crap. Entering in your own password to run commands as an administrator? Yeah, that's a great idea.

      You can configure sudo to ask for the root password instead. I'm not sure if you can restrict root login to sudo in that case, though (if you can, having the root password would be useless for anyone not in sudoers, unless he also has the password of someone in that group).

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    3. Re:sudo by xenobyte · · Score: 1

      You obviously never have worked with sudo, right?

      It actually does everything asked for here because to can specify which commands any user can run as root. Don't allow people to run shells and you get the fine grained control asked for. It's actually pretty simple.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
  38. Old question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I hate to say this, but Plato raised the underlying question in 380BC, and it was rephrased in 2AD by Juvenal, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

    We have generally relied on Plato's solution. We have convinced sysadmins that they are somehow more noble than the poor (l)users, and must keep the root password in trust to protect users from themselves.

    But enough history, on to the geeky stuff. Unfortunately, this is one area where it looks like Microsoft may have stolen a march on the Unix community. Active Directory allows the delegation of the vast majority of administrative functions to other accounts. So, while it still needs the 'all powerful' domain admin at it's core you can create a group of Account Admins and delegate the account administration rights to them. The ability to add and remove machines from domains can also be delegated. Using delegation means that full domain administration rights will seldom be needed (in theory anyway).

    Unfortunately, many of the Linix core administrative functions are still property of 'root' and can only be delegated with difficulty. Has anyone seen a good case study of Linux rights delegation?

  39. Double entry bookkeeping handles this problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It may require a bit of re-thinking to do this for sys admin, but double entry bookkeeping has handled this problem for a very long time.

    The basic idea is that you set things up so it takes more than one person to rip you off.

    For example:
    The person who orders stuff is not the same person who cuts the check to pay for it. Any payments have to have a corresponding entry somewhere else in the books. If the guy who cuts the checks cuts a bogus check, there will not be an entry in the books from someone who ordered supplies (or whatever). (It is important that each function only gets to modify the part of the books that is their direct responsibility. Only the auditors can see all the books and they can't change them.) The books won't balance and the dishonest bookkeeper will be quickly caught.

    I'm not sure how this would work for sys admins and it would create extra paperwork. On the other hand, for critical systems, it would insure against sabotage or dumb mistakes.

  40. yes it's called sudo by ghostoftiber · · Score: 0

    And you clearly have no place being a sysadmin.

  41. Good disaster recovery and role separation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With currently available technologies and administration methods, it's not possible to totally disempower a system administrator. However, it's not entirely necessary either. Disaster recovery processes should be designed around the possibility of an administrator going rogue. In this event, a rogue administrator can certainly do damage, but the organization has an established and validated set of processes for regaining control and reestablishing services after the worst happens, and also has systems in place for logging and auditing that will allow legal action to be taken after the fact.
    Separate roles appropriately with regard to disaster recovery, damage mitigation, and audit log integrity. This means, for example, if one administrator runs the backups, another administrator tests the recovery process - ideally by replicating the production environment at a disaster recovery site. Similarly, where this is a risk, all systems should be logging to secure log hosts, which are under separate administrative control - preventing a rogue administrator from erasing evidence of their activity.
    Audits should be performed periodically to insure that management can regain control of all systems, even after a deliberate attempt by a rogue administrator to lock them out.

  42. RSBAC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RSBAC

    Rule set based access control. Who is root anyway?

    http://www.rsbac.org/why

  43. Smack * by onyxruby · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Peer Review, Change Control, Auditing, Maintenance Windows, Testing all changes in a lab before production, source and version control / maintenance. These are all best practices, work regardless of operating system and don't require any special software.

    Why o why do you want to use software to take the place of established best practices? Best practices are there for good reasons, and those reasons usually have multi-million dollar lessons attached to them. You don't need special software, just a heavy that says yes you /must/ do it this way and raises hell when you try otherwise...

  44. sudo, Xwindows, and logging by corbettw · · Score: 1

    There's a relatively simple way to handle this. First, you set up a call center with operators on the phone who each have access to the servers under management. They each have sudo rights to a single command: to create an xterm as root. Their workstations are locked down and do not have an X server installed. (You can take this further and restrict X from reaching them via firewall policies.)

    Second, the admins who need root access do have an X server installed. When they need root access to a system, they first call the operators above and open a ticket, detailing exactly why they need access, for how long, and what other ticket is being worked that justified this in the first place. Then the operator invokes an xterm, using the admin's workstation as their display. The admin now has a root session on the server in question.

    A few other policy guidelines (no more than one root window to a given server at a time, all requests logged to a central database, auditing conducted to make sure the same admin and the same operator aren't talking more often than statistics say they should, timeouts on all sessions with active monitoring of /etc/profile to make sure the timeout isn't tampered with) and this should at least let you know exactly who is becoming root, when, and why.

    The drawback to this scheme is that it doesn't cover those instances where a machine is not on the network for some reason. But in those cases, you institute a policy of two people being required to sign in and sign out of a cage before getting physical access to hardware. Two-person integrity should mitigate against any nefarious goings sufficiently (not perfectly, of course, but sufficiently).

    --
    God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  45. Solaris RBAC by khb · · Score: 1

    No doubt many sites are "lazy", or "old-fashioned" Solaris has had "Role Based Access Control" for many years. Different tasks can be farmed out/delegated to different people.

    Auditing, etc. all provided.

  46. I claim prior art by srussia · · Score: 1

    In my household I have been implementing SAP (Spousal Approval Protocol) for years.

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
  47. Re: audit the root? by leuk_he · · Score: 1

    about 10 years ago i got hit with the question if it was possible to deny root access to certain files. The root user had access to some financial tranfering records that he did not need for the funtion of administrator.

    I Failed to come up with a reasonable scenario for this, it seems to be impossible under unix (that was AIX 4.2 i think) to hide some file for the root user. (and still to be able to access them from user space and to data transfer with them.)

  48. A product solultion e-dmzsecurity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think this would provide the level of control you are looking for

    http://www.e-dmzsecurity.com/

  49. You have to trust someONE. by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    Yes, you do, even if that someONE is YOU.

    For all you quivering sysadmins out there, and you lusers that question their authority and trustworthiness:

    Do you trust your CIO to not shackle you to poor choices just for their kickbacks?

    Do you trust the Board to not limit your opportunities by failing to act on corporate goals?

    Do you trust your CEO to not collude with your accountants and cook the books?

    Trust.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  50. Simple by ThePhilips · · Score: 1

    Are there more sweeping yet practical solutions out there for avoiding the weakness of a singular empowered superuser?

    Give the responsibility back to the users.

    By removing the responsibility from users, one keeps them oblivious to the infrastructure problems. That perpetuates arrogance and the "not my responsibility" mentality.

    By moving the responsibility to admins, to the people who do not use (for their primary purpose) the services and infrastructure they are responsible for, make them oblivious to the actual user needs. And self servingly often make the infrastructure more complex than it really needs to be - feeding off the "not my responsibility" mentality.

    I'm strong believer that people should know their tools. It is either one wastes time in the extra bureaucracy which IT brings with itself - or spends time learning what actually is going on and how to manage it. Learning > bureaucracy.

    My 0,02€.

    --
    All hope abandon ye who enter here.
  51. SUDO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's called SUDO

    Normal admin tasks can still be preformed and anyone that need higher privilege escalation can go to the other people that can grant that access.

  52. Re:Answer in kdawson's tagline by rwa2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "trust but verify"

    To get some transparency / accountability, just set up an authlog black hole that includes all of the sudo activity from your servers.

  53. change control by Eivind · · Score: 1

    Use the wikipedia-approach:

    Don't restrict, but instead log exactly who does what change when and why, and make it trivial to undo any change.

    For example, for /etc use revision-control, and require that all changes be comitted.

    That way, yes, the one doing something may screw up, but you can easily undo it. And when the customer calls and goes "why doesn't that work, it worked last thursday!" you can trivially get a list of all changes since then.

    As an added bonus looking at logs and commit-diffs give a new admin an excellent way of seeing how a task is typically done, and so has benefits in training.

    1. Re:change control by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

      "Don't restrict, but instead log exactly who does what change when and why, and make it trivial to undo any change.

      For example, for /etc use revision-control, and require that all changes be comitted."

      Yes yes yes. The great thing about this is, it makes the sysadmin's life easier.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
  54. Re:sternobread (NO security is perfect) by mrnick · · Score: 1

    Nothing is perfect but what you described is pretty close. I used to work for an ISP in the 90's and we had something similar. We figured if things ever got "so hosed" we would be booting into single user mode from the console so root's encrypted password was disabled (started with an *) so there was no logging in as root. The closest thing to root was accounts that had the ability to sudo visudo but all sudo was logged remotely via syslog.

    This does point out the one security risk that has to be accepted and that is: physical access directly equates to root access.

    You also have to be careful about what kind of access you allow with sudo. For example:

    If you give a user the ability to "sudo vi /somedir/somfile.txt" there is nothing to keep them, nor any log of them, reading in any other file and writing it back out to any other file once the vi has launched... so doing so is the same as giving them access to "sudo vi". Believe me this gets tricky!!

    --

    Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
  55. Re: password vault by rwa2 · · Score: 1

    KeePassX , with a master password, and hell, if you want, maybe another secret keyfile only distributed via encrypted e-mail or by hand.

  56. STOP MAKING SENSE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You FOOL. How could you so openly reveal the secret to successful business?

    If the Americans re-learn this basic principle, they will throw out SOX, HIPAA, GLB, and FDA regulations and simply hold all human beings responsible for their own actions, rather than their intentions or lack of documentation. That would return the Americans to political, economic and social dominance within 20 years!

    WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!!!! Keep the Americans weak and childish, and everyone else wins.

  57. Use sudo by VincenzoRomano · · Score: 1

    You insensitive clod.

    --
    Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
    For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
  58. Plugging products :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BMC Bladelogic provides a nice solution that enables you to perform root operations without being root in a supervised manor, rules etc can then be audited automatically or using your two factor admin approach.
    It is most likely one of the futures out there :)

  59. This will never work by operagost · · Score: 1

    Only the largest companies are willing to actually pay for three competent admins... and now all three of these guys will have to be on call 24-7 in case any changes need to be made. Great idea!

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  60. Trusted Solaris, and/or "B1/b2" systems by bolthole · · Score: 1

    There's a fancyschmancy name for what you want, that I forget. Old solutions for this sort of thing can be found in the old "orange book" security levels.
    Ye old "C1", "C2", "B1", "B2" certified levels.

    A proper B1 level (or is it B2 level?) system does not have a single uber-root. It has "role based access".

    Sun used to sell a "separate" variant of Solaris, called "trusted solaris", that was out -of-the-box compliant with that sort of thing.
    It had a huge pile o manuals, and admining it was "a little different".

    Nowadays, they've rolled all the features into regular solaris. But it ships in normal solaris mode by default. You have to do a buncha stuffs to de-rootify it. Make sure that you have enough people who have all the appropriate, required "roles" covered.

    Unfortunately, I cant seem to google a good guide for setting it up that way. You'd have to go through the online solaris docs to find out specifics. I suspect you arent serious enough about this idea to really pursue it though. Virtually no-one is, once they find out what it involves. they decide, "Eh, we can live with the root account after all". Which is why trusted solaris did not do a huge amount of business :)

  61. Sysadmins by Stooshie · · Score: 1

    In my experience most sysadmins would refuse to give up control. The only other control they usually have in there lives is telling there mum what type of pizza to bring down to the basement of an evening. :-)

    --
    America, Home of the Brave. ... .and the Squaw.
  62. Novel perspective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Practically every computer system appears to be at the mercy of..."

    That's an interesting perspective. They're usually "at the mercy of" because they dump responsibility by the truckload on said individual. And then they complain when said individual has accumulated too much power. Personally, I don't like having all this responsibility and the uncomfortable level of power that comes with it. The whole joke behind the BOFH is that he *loves* the power that comes with the responsibility.

  63. Depends on what kind of people you want to attract by MpVpRb · · Score: 1

    A very talented, and very honest person will not put up with layers of approvals and constant monitoring.

    They will find a place where they have respect and freedom.

    You will end up with a mid-to-low talent bureaucrat.

  64. My proposal by HikingStick · · Score: 2

    As a one-person IT department, I made a recommendation to management, reflecting a practice that is used in some other high-trust industries, like banking: audit me.

    Really. Give me a couple of paid weeks off each year, and have our auditing firm come in and look at the logs, my access, and the security model. Not only would it help the company feel good about the network controls and their network administrator (yours truly), but it would also give me a couple of weeks off without being hounded every day for me to fix something or other, as usually happens on my days off.

    --
    I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  65. Privileged Identity Management by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most of the time privileged identities are not properly managed because IT wants share credentials out of convenience. In other cases credentials are not properly managed because it is not well understood where the credentials are used and any attempt to change them will result in outages. To properly solve the problem, a technology is needed to take away the knowledge of all sensitive credentials for all admins and only release them in a controlled way and only for a limited amount of time. After the time expires, the credentials MUST be changed automatically without human intervention.

    The management of privileged identities is a well understood process and is covered by all of the analyst firms and forms a subsegment of the identity management field. In the case of our product for privileged identity management (PIM), we already support multi-factor authentication, segregation of duties, complex delegation rules that factor in IP address, certificates, time of day, multi-party approval, trouble ticket verification, system sensitivity level, and all of the transactions are fed into SIEM systems using SYSLOG and other event systems.

    The control mechanisms for PIM to make sure that only the right person with the right access can access systems. We think (www.liebsoft.com) we do this better than any other company, but we are biased.

  66. The ones you mentioned don't apply here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are no "indispensable people:" If you are a sysadmin, and you are the only one who knows your systems, you have not done your job. Every system and app should be documented, and there should be accountability for every change and decision.

    If the sysadmin that didn't do his job leaves, the company still has a problem.

    It's particularly dangerous to trust each individual to do his job well if a bad job will only be spotted when the bad employee leaves the company, which is the case of sysadmins.

    The real safeguard is to have somebody check that the documentation exists and can be used. Ideally the sysadmin's manager.

  67. Wheel by ei4anb · · Score: 1

    I first encountered the "wheel" group on the PDP-10 (mid 70s) where the command to become superuser was "pivot". Wikipedia says the "wheel" name is from slang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_(Unix_term)

  68. Sudo is worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Typing in your password 300 times per day does nothing. The point of logging is to be able to read the logs afterwards and parse them.
    Security asked me once, "well, what commands do you need." I mailed him the contents of all the bin directories.
    Sudo is a worthless circle jerk that does nothing but complicate an environment and add additional workload to get a checkbox that is absolutely fucking worthless.
    Other than that, I have no opinion...
    vi bob
    su - guyihate
    rm -rf / :wq!
    chmod +x bob
    sudo ./bob

    More fun to tack it on to a DBA cron job, but I'm just saying.

  69. HR problem by DigiTechGuy · · Score: 0

    Sounds like an HR problem to me. Hire people who are competent and trustworthy, compensate them well. Problem solved.

  70. Missile command by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    Two admins. Two keys. Two guns. One set of orders. Problem solved!

    --
    -kgj
  71. Re: audit the root? by StuartHankins · · Score: 1

    Not sure if SELinux can be used for this or not, but I think so. I don't think that helps you on AIX 4.2, sorry.

  72. FEAR!!! by U8MyData · · Score: 1

    I am absolutely freaking tired of living in fear of what if. I have been at this for more than 15 years and I have seen it all. I work hard, I dedicate myself to the systems, my employer and employees only to be studied like I am some kind of loose cannon. I am tired of it! Rant over...

  73. A simpler proposal by Anarke_Incarnate · · Score: 1

    A simpler, yet often not employed strategy, would be to hire competent people, and respect them for their abilities and role within an organization. If you shit down your SA/SE's neck on a regular basis, hire them for their ability and then second guess every idea they ever have or constantly create more work for them, because your IT budget has been supplanted by your "I want a boat" budget, you get people who resent you and want to fuck you hard for what they perceive as your gross incompetence that causes them grief and stress.

    The way to avoid this is to give them the respect due, or hire somebody who can be respected. Compensate them for their time and effort and make their rewards seem to be corresponding to their work and help to the organization.

  74. Trust but Verify by PPH · · Score: 1

    Provide some logging facility protected from access by the root user to track administrative actions. The root user can do whatever s/he wants, but will be answerable to some authority following an audit.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  75. It's called Privileged User Management by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

    There are a number of products available to do it..

    One of the best is http://www.novell.com/priviledgedusermanager

    There are some open source implementations as well.

    1. Re:It's called Privileged User Management by mysidia · · Score: 1

      I think you meant Novell Privileged User Manager

      and not priviledged

  76. Trust by ogrius · · Score: 1

    No matter what you do, someone needs to know the all powerful password to the system (And they should be written down and stored in a safe so that if that person dies/quits/terminated, someone else can get them).

    Even if you make the most perfect system there will be the occasions when you something out of the ordinary happens and you will need root.

    I personally prefer an environment setup, so that people have to log in as themselves and switch to root. That way you have some audits of who did what. And on critical systems, I've actually installed a key logger so that we knew even what commands were run.

    And if it is possible setting up Roles or sudo so that common tasks are can be done as themselves.

    But in the end you will need to completely trust at least one or two of your IT people. They will have the keys to all your critical systems and know all the security/checks and balances around your systems. In medium/large companies, you might have silos, so that specific groups own systems, which makes it so that one set of IT people don't control everything, but even then you need to trust the people running your ERP system.

  77. From the makers of phpMyAdmin by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    From the makers of phpMyAdmin, here's wikiSysAdmin! It's a wiki where the wisdom of the crowd is used to determine the config files and process states. Your system will have one 9 of up time, but it will truly be an egalitarian server. RMS would love it.

  78. Rotate Admins and Audit by edelbrp · · Score: 1

    Rotate admins between systems/responsibilities and have a third party do random audits.

    In the end, logs can be falsified and nasty activity hidden. You have to trust your admins at some point. At least by rotating admins they can basically keep an eye on each other and cover for each other as needed. As an IT guy for a small company, I welcomed having others that I trust do some IT stuff for me while I'm busy or gone. Be wary of admins who get defensive when asked to allow somebody else to take over for them from time to time. Admins who feel they need 'job security' or are allowed to 'play' on their own too much can be dangerous.

    As a CS prof told us, "You'll spend the first year of your job trying to get root, and the rest of your career trying to get rid of it." ;')

    Lastly, if you are paranoid, do random third party audits. I've been through a few detailed audits, and I actually enjoyed having an outside source confirm I'm doing things right (or wrong). They can actually be empowering as they can justify an increase in IT budgets that otherwise would be a hard sell. Again an admin who goes apesh!t at the idea of having somebody else check their work is a bad sign.

    1. Re:Rotate Admins and Audit by Doc+Hopper · · Score: 1

      Rotate admins between systems/responsibilities and have a third party do random audits.

      I've been through a few detailed audits, and I actually enjoyed having an outside source confirm I'm doing things right (or wrong). They can actually be empowering as they can justify an increase in IT budgets that otherwise would be a hard sell. Again an admin who goes apesh!t at the idea of having somebody else check their work is a bad sign.

      If I had mod points in this discussion, I'd give you +1. As it is, I simply must contribute my point of view.

      There's a break-point somewhere between "small shop with many hats" and "big company with people in IT roles who can keep an eye on one another". But even in a small shop, you can divvy up the duties. You can hire an auditing company and, as mentioned above, give your admins a break for a week while the auditors do their thing. The auditors will always find something wrong. That's their job. Don't make your admin fear for his or her job due to the mistakes. Work to fix them.

      We go through this every year with our payment-processing. An external auditing firm hired by the credit card companies (but we have to pay for them) does a rectum-to-retinal examination of everything that touches the payment processing stuff at the data center. They make recommendations, and we follow them as closely as we can. The next year, they show up again around the same time and we do it all over, but with slightly different recommendations this time in response to new vulnerabilities someone has thought of or a crook has implemented.

      I used to think that a company would want a single, uber-admin up until about 80 total employees. These days, I think that divvying up the IT duties right from the start is a good idea. Have a change-management procedure in place so that the sysadmin needs to get work approved by a higher-up before proceeding, and have this written down or tracked in a change-management database somehow. Plan the work so that, unless a system has crashed, NOTHING is an emergency. Require a minimum of a day or two prior to starting the work so that all the approvals are done, and that way you have your work scheduled 2 days in advance, all the time.

      Of course many companies will not want to shoulder the up-front opportunity cost of a decent change-management strategy. But at some point, they're going to struggle with managing lots of changes because they didn't figure out how they were going to do it earlier... and the job will be much more complicated at that time.

      If you hate oversight and review of your work, find a different career or start your own company.

  79. Re: audit the root? by Kymermosst · · Score: 1

    SELinux can block root from accessing files.

    Of course, people who are root usually have the ability to get to the console of the system and boot from other media, but it's pretty obvious when a server reboots if you have appropriate monitoring.

    --
    "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
  80. Re: audit the root? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's a job for encryption, not file attributes.

  81. Can't fix this with software by rgviza · · Score: 1

    "However, making a system require multiple individuals for any root operation (think of the classic two-key process to launch a nuke) has shortcomings: simple operations sometimes require root, and would be enormously cumbersome if they needed a consensus of administrators to execute. "

    --------------------

    This is also ineffective. What happens if one of the multiple individuals rage-quits or several of them are involved in a plane crash? To safegaurd against this you need administrators to be able to reset other administrator's passwords. When you can do this, it eliminates the safeguard.

    --------------------
    "Are there more sweeping yet practical solutions out there for avoiding the weakness of a singular empowered superuser?"

    --------------------
    1. don't hire foul balls
    2. have multiple administrators with super user access. only giving this to one person is stupid. What if they die of a heart attack?

    You can't fix this problem with software. You need common sense and a knack for hiring good employees. It also requires a probationary period for you to feel out new employees and make sure they aren't nut-cases, and that there's nothing "off" about them. If you have suspicions about someone, it's usually for a good reason. Listen to them.

    --
    Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
  82. Re: audit the root? by rgviza · · Score: 1

    if it was possible to deny root access to certain file
    ---
    the only way to do this is to encrypt the file with a key that is closely guarded by the financial employee who uses the data. It can't be on their workstation. Presumably the administrator could get it if it was on the finance employee's workstation.

    You can't deny root access to data using the operating system controls. Root owns the operating system controls.

    --
    Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
  83. Accountability - the most important aspect of AAA by SoupIsGood+Food · · Score: 1

    Use an authentication server and password escrow, backed up by a good HIDS.

    One site I know of uses a RADIUS server and sudo-enabled user accounts. If you need to log in as root, you need to hit up a manager for the password, which he gets from an escrow system that logs in after you're done and resets it to something new.

    Accountability - if the BOfH does something stinky, it will show up in the HIDS logs, which are hopefully maintained by another department and reviewed regularly. Authentication logs will then show who the culprit was.

  84. Did anyone else read that as... by w0mprat · · Score: 1

    ... disemboweling a singular sysadmin?

    --
    After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
  85. Contrapositively... by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

    System Subverters worry about system subversion obsessively, just as nobody is as paranoid about being stolen from as a thief.

    When I find myself working for a person who is repeatedly asking how "we" are going to make sure that (some guy) doesn't have too much power I immediately ask two questions: (1) Does (some guy) already have too much power that he is apparently ready to misuse [kinda common] so obviously that he has already implicitly threatened the good function of the office; and (2) is the person asking the question engaged in personal entrenchment and bad dealing to a degree that they are expressing the worry that others are able to do to them what they are already doing to others [far more common that item 1].

    Both conditions are toxic. The question itself is a warning sign of bad things to come.

    A good system admin will have _already_ established some kind of key escrow and should already be training his replacement by the end of day one on the job. That's because a good system administrator knows that he doesn't want to be called at all hours of the day and night for pointless tasks, nor does he want to be so indefensible that he will never be able to advance out of his current position.

    There are plenty of acceptable system admins out there who don't have these personal policies, and that isn't that bad.

    But when your boss doesn't trust, that is usually a sign that your boss is not worthy of trust himself. This isn't always the case, but it is the safest bet to make.

    Besides, "disempowring" users or admins _never_ really works. It just leads to multiplied consequences. Set up a mail retention policy that discards mail after ninety days? You'll find people saved their mail all over the place by dragging it out of the mail system. Lock down your USB ports and you will get things emailed will-he nill-he and find burnt CDs everywhere. Try to lock out your administrators and they will spread undocumented hacks all through your system. All this just so these people can meet the minimum requirements of their jobs.

    "The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers" -- This is a truth, not just a Star Wars quote.

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
  86. Superuser by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Funny

    Are there more sweeping yet practical solutions out there for avoiding the weakness of a singular empowered superuser?"

    No. Now just hang on a second while I delete your user account and all your data, you presumptuous bitch.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  87. Have It Both Ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have an authorization dialog box with 2 pairs of username and password fields. Allow both a single root privileged account to authenticate, and when the single admin is not available, allow two IT group staff accounts the ability to escalate authorization levels when they both enter their separate authentication credentials. And of course, log the accounts used in the security log.

  88. mod up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This gets to the core of this post. Its not about su/sudo, its about trust.

    1. Re:mod up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, mod this parent up. Wouldn't that be funny? Do it!

  89. Safeguards by ZahrGnosis · · Score: 1

    I think giving multiple people root access is the opposite direction the original question intended. I think the idea is that you don't want ANY one person to have the ability to bring down, corrupt, or steal from a single system. Considering the recent madness around congressional data, passwords, credit card databases, and thousands of other examples this sort of security seems more and more reasonable.

    I work on some unclassified Department of Defense machines, and even to get root access to those machines our admins have to get Top Secret clearances. Of course, this does nothing to ward off incompetence and is only useful for providing increased trust in your single point of failure, (but that trust is important). I assume you're looking for assurances beyond this sort of social-engineering aspect.

    The two-key (nuclear) option mentioned is probably workable for a reasonably administered production system. There are several ways to implement a two-person system that could work.

    First, routine tasks, or tasks which can be pre-planned (i.e. non-emergency situations) could be scripted on backup environments without the sensitivity or criticality of the production system. This should be standard practice anyway. Once a working tested script is prepared (and that can be a script in the programming sense a la .ksh/.perl or a script in the user-documentation meaning). The production system can require dual authentication for logon before the script could be executed. In a fully automated setting this is a completely technological solution (although I admit that I don't know of a working implementation that is publicly available), but even if there are some manual steps required, holding both key holders responsible and requiring at least over-the-shoulder confirmation is a useful policy.

    For more complex tasks, such as recovering physically corrupted data, which really can't be simulated and scripted, dividing responsibilities and ensuring multiple people are in attendance at all times can significantly reduce risk exposure with minimal impact (it doubles your staffing requirement, but only for the hopefully brief periods when this is required). Again, this is not a technical solution, other than having lock boxes or rooms with multiple keys.

    It's important to realize of course that you'd have to apply this solution not just to your sysadmin role, but to your physical infrastructure (no one person can access the power button, the fuse box, etc. by themselves), and to each application running on the system, at least for any role that has access to protected areas. This is nigh impossible in a usable system, so the problem gets pretty complicated, but if you really need the security then it may be worth the effort.

  90. Disemboweling the Singular Sysadmin? by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Maybe I am just having a rough day, but that's how I initially read the title...

    "You canna take ma root passwoord away, but you'll 'near take mai FREEEEDOOOOMMM!"

  91. Re:Depends on what kind of people you want to attr by Doc+Hopper · · Score: 2

    A very talented, and very honest person will not put up with layers of approvals and constant monitoring.

    Have you actually worked at a company composed of very talented, very honest people who put up with this very thing every day? Setting up an ITIL-compliant change management system -- and getting everybody on-board with using it -- is a very daunting procedure. Speaking as someone who has been on both ends of this, I can say that in the end, it's worth it. My day as a sysadmin is no longer all about putting out fire after fire, dashing around and pulling crazy hours at the whims of vice-presidents who think the latest thing they heard about is the "highest priority".

    Work is scheduled, executed, and followed-up on. It's not perfect, but requiring approval from the stakeholders prior to making changes has been a HUGE improvement in my quality-of-life and that of my fellow admins. The principal cost is manpower: I spend far more time managing changes than I used to.

    It bugs me when people equate "managing change" with "being a bureaucrat". The process of getting to the point that we could manage and track all our changes was a royal pain in the butt. Five years later, even if you factor in the time-cost of documenting all changes to all systems, we're running more efficiently than before.

    I've played the game of being the chief sysadmin in a startup before. Heroic effort, hectic schedules, and obscene hours at low pay aren't what I'm interested in anymore. And truthfully, the average quality of sysadmin I work with in a Fortune 500 company is head-and-shoulders above the admins I worked with before. There's a minimum standard we expect, and if you can't hack it, you're out.

    That minimum standard includes knowing that any change you make as root on a system will be monitored, catalogued, and may be subject to a later Root Cause Analysis (RCA). Learn to behave ethically, carefully, and competently at all times when you're working as root, and it's no big deal. In truth, I'm GLAD for the monitoring. During any audit -- and I've been through many! -- I can point to the service request number, change request number, and approvals for the work I performed. It's good pay, my ass is always covered when I make important changes, and I get to work on machines in a data center that makes the warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark look small. What's not to love?

  92. Get what you pay for by BobSutan · · Score: 1

    I once read a story about a company who had a widget making machine. One day the machine breaks and they have to call in a specialist to fix it. An hour later the specialize arrives and they take him to the machine. He looks it over for a minute, pulls out a wrench, and turns a bolt. The machine springs back to the life and the specialist hands the company rep his bill. The rep is astounded when he reads it and exclaims, "$5005.00?! But it just took you a minute! How can you charge so much?" The specialist replied, "It's 5 dollars to come down and turn the bolt, but $5000 for knowing which one to turn." My point is that companies need to realize that superusers/admins get paid what they do and have the responsiblity they hold for a reason. Looking for a "quick fix" and trying to cheap out is just going to get egg on your face and put your company's infrastructure at risk later. My suggestion to employers is to make sure they do adequate background/security checks on the people they're handing the keys to the company to.

    --
    "On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
    1. Re:Get what you pay for by dotfile · · Score: 1

      That works great, but doesn't always scale well. For example, take my employer... over a quarter million employees, many hundreds of them being SAs who administer nearly every OS known to man distributed across over 30,000 servers scattered around the globe. They are by and large paid and treated *quite* well. However, the sheer numbers mean you're eventually going to encounter the occasional incompetent, or possibly the rare person with ill intent. Now you need something a lot more scalable than "check them out thoroughly before hiring them". If you don't believe that, your corporate auditors and government regulating bodies will gently tell you otherwise.

      In many cases it's a mixture of enforced change management policy and commercially available, enterprise-sized tools to control, limit, grant, record and audit access to SAs. I may have root privileges on a server, or a few hundred of them, but in order to use that power I have to authenticate and everything is logged. Yes, I can turn all of that off... but the act of turning it off is, of course, logged and audited, and I had damn well better have a change control document to justify it.

      I'm not going to mention specific tools here, because I do like my job and my employer (hi, Power Wielding / Paycheck Signing Overlords!) -- but they're not difficult to find. They are, however, generally expensive, and an enormous pain in the ass to implement and support.

  93. Not really necessary by dbIII · · Score: 1

    If you actually physically possess the box and can get to the power switch, console and input devices to boot off then you "own" the box. Any "takeover" is probably a good enough excuse for an outage, pulling network cables and locking out whoever has misbehaved. Balance that over having to have multiple people available at all times instead of just one of several. The idea as stated above has many drawbacks and would be better done with physical access restrictions. Set up some functions to only be possible from the console, then put that in a locked room with the two keys from out of the movies or whatever. Then be prepared to rebuild the wall every few years when emergency single person access is required :)

    1. Re:Not really necessary by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Yes, but that problem has been trivially solved for a LONG time (access to the physical hardware requires getting through a lock that need multiple people to unlock it.)

      You would then argue that locks can be picked, etc. And I can then reply with monitoring the access areas - the person would have to be a fast lock pick and hacker to get in and do any harm, even then the machine could be quarantined.

      Nobody is dumb enough to think there is no cost associated with these measures, the question is - is the extra security worth it. Unless the system is under your authority, you can't answer that question.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    2. Re:Not really necessary by dbIII · · Score: 1

      After other posts and your reply I think the situation can be summed up as follows.
      Here we are looking for a technological solution to a social problem that was solved long ago.
      A social solution dictating who can actually get near the stuff and whether they get watched at the time or not or checked after is probably superior to implementing anything on the actual machines. This reduces it to a 1960s mainframe problem and there must be a pile written about it over the decades.

  94. DAN is broken. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "In a DAN, each instance is administered and maintained by a separate administrator or administration group with unique passwords."

    "When new data is introduced to one instance (as when a user creates or modifies a record), that data is then replicated to other members of the DAN which accept that instance's hash."

    "When an instance fails to properly conform to the hash or other checking-mechanisms, it is deprecated from the network."

    O RLY?

    So you're telling me, there's a guy who has Admin privs on a machine, and every "change" on that machine is automatically accepted by every other machine, yet if something is "different" on one machine that machine is automatically taken out of the cluster? This is stupid.

    First of all, if every change is automatically accepted the admin can just make it look like a normal change and poof, it's propagaded. If you have admin rights you can do anything you want. All keys, all everything is exposed. The game is over.
    Second, this is an awesome Denial Of Service attack. Just somehow cause a corruption in one or all of the other machines and your sole machine is now the master of all. Huzzah!

    You don't need 3 independent systems, this is so stupid. You just need one machine and grant root to *nobody*. Create admin accounts which can do virtually anything, shape the roles with selinux or capabilities+permissions or a number of other access control methods. Install services and configure sudo or other tools to run in unique security domains or as unique users. Install tripwire, a configuration management app, monitoring, etc that all run in a security domain OUTSIDE of the admin role's control, and have it verify everything on a regular basis and send alerts if anything has been locally edited. Use checksums on binaries (again, outside the admin role) so only authentic applications can be run.

    Granted, all of what I said is possible under Linux and is probably possible under Windows, and should not take too long to set up. Also it requires nothing more than Bash scripting skills and the ability to use things like SELinux (or alternatives). One server, multiple roles. This isn't rocket science, kids, and it's not vaporware.

  95. Technical mitigations by rawler · · Score: 1

    At work, we are 4 sysadmins (two dedicated, two time-shared with other tasks) working in a number of systems. To mitigate this particular problem, we've setup an infrastructure comprised of Kerberos, LDAP and AFS with sudo for privilege escalation.

    The intention is to manage the risk of unintentional mistakes causing problems, as well as some degree of traceability when problems occur. No single admin knows all systems, so one may by mistake cause conflicting configs in unknown systems, but in those cases, you can pretty quickly determine who did it, and roughly what was did by examining logs. Enables the shame-factor, education, and acceptably quick recovery.

    The highly critical functions runs in an isolated system, upgrades to both code and config are version controlled (as is the bulk of the config of every individual service), further improving traceability, with the praxis to only do updates to those systems in with at least two admins present in order to avoid mistakes and ensure everyone keeps well familiar with those systems.

    However, it's very important to note that all of this is intended to improve maintainability, NOT security. All four admins have individual physical access, so any one of us could naturally while doing onsite jobs, perform an "upgrade-reboot", and sneak in init=/bin/bash on any system and do whatever without logging. In the end, you pretty much have to trust your co-workers, or pay in both money and flexibility for a non-centralized organisation.

  96. Sysadmins and janitors need to be trusted by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Your company already has people that clean the place that have keys to every room. That should put some of the unjustified paranoia and misplaced jealousy in some of the comments here in perspective. It's not POWER it's responsibility - just like the responsibility to clean the urinals and sometimes just as unpleasant.

  97. Same here. by khasim · · Score: 1

    The people on the "review board" (my boss and his compatriots) don't even know enough about my job to be able to determine whether what I've written is accurate.

    They're more worried about having paperwork so that they can blame me if something goes wrong (they have the same boss) than they are about something not failing in the first place. Remember, blame shared is no blame at all.

    So massive amounts of paperwork are generated ... and nothing gets done. Until something breaks and then then all the updates are applied at once in an effort to see if that will fix the problem.

    We had a SAN and attached blade chassis with ancient firmware on it. But I couldn't get approval to update it because the blades were running too many "mission critical" servers. Until one of the disks failed and the entire thing went into alarm. Approval was granted for THAT WEEKEND. Anything. Just get those servers stable. Pay the overtime for the consultant to come in and help with it.

    No amount of paperwork worked before the disk failure.
    After the disk failure, A single sheet of paper with a SINGLE PARAGRAPH justifying the outage was deemed sufficient.

    If there's any chance at all that something might NOT happen "on their watch" then they're going to dump all the effort onto you to get any change pushed through. Just because your change MIGHT cause a problem that they'd have to "deal with".

    And by "deal with" I mean "tell you to fix" and "explain in a meeting with their boss why YOU broke something".

    1. Re:Same here. by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          People wonder why I qualify most statements in an emergency. Not "this will fix it", but "this *MAY* fix it". Never "I don't know when this problem happened", but "This problem existed before I started working this trouble report". You never know 100% positively that your fix will repair the problem. A failing drive is easy to diagnose, and most of the time you'll be right. A failing drive because the controller is going wonky, or someone put the cable a little too close to the fan and it slowly shaved through a few leads, is a lot harder to diagnose. And yes, I've seen all three scenarios and others.

          And as I've learned, no number of department head sign-offs will mitigate stupidity. I swear, you could write up a change request for cleaning the servers, which includes a garden hose, soap, bucket, and sponge, and you could likely get it approved, if you slide the obvious mistakes (Hmmm, garden hose in the datacenter?) down to the middle of the third paragraph. Phrasing it as "Lauryldimethylamine oxide cleaning agent with pressurized dihydrogen monoxide removal process in compliance with 29 USC 654" may work better. (Lauryldimethylamine oxide was the biggest word I noticed in the MSDS for Gunk Purple Cleanser/Degreaser, which I'm fairly sure would be worse for electronics than just tap water)

         

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  98. Take my job - please! by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

    A single sysadmin is a seriously problematic anti-pattern even when you don't want to be the single point of failure. There's a theoretically infinite amount of work, and there's never enough time for documentation that would make you not indispensable.

    So while you're waiting for a second sysadmin, or at least a PFY, you have to work out how the hell to make yourself not indispensable.

    The key point in terms of this article is: anyone with root on a Unix box can actually do what the hell they like - but almost no sysadmins do, because we're nerds and actually care about getting stuff right, or we wouldn't be doing this for a living. Yes, you can haxx0r the logs. No, no-one will care.

    * It is the job of every sysadmin to automate themselves out of existence. The trick there is that you are never actually automated out of existence, because there will always, always be new things for you to do.
    * Maintain an intranet wiki. Just use MediaWiki, it looks like Wikipedia and people think they understand that, and even if they don't it's quite usable out the box to sysadmin standards. I use ours as my personal notebook and if anyone else benefits that's just fine.
    * Document by reflex, even just notes. Cut'n'paste the terminal to the wiki. Everything. The search function will save your arse. I may be unusual in being one of the few sysadmins I know who likes documentation.
    * If paranoid managers who don't know what you do for a living want audit logs, just get in the habit of using sudo. sudo -s in extremis. Autosave history.
    * The ideal is that every service can just be restarted if it fails, and that a crashed box will come back with all services. This tempts people to administer Unix like Windows, but robustifying the services is enough discipline to feel like you're doing things properly. My boss and I agree this is an excellent ideal and sometimes we even bother. Hiccups are documented on the wiki. *cough*

    Anyone else got ideas on the simple notion of getting a damn PFY when you need one?

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  99. The second part of that. by khasim · · Score: 1

    Then again, some rocket scientist may have disabled it for faster connect times.

    Yep. Because when it was enabled, the port was not ready for when the database came up and since the database server couldn't authenticate to the AD controller ... it threw an error.

    Why not tie the database to a process that completed LATER in the boot process?

    Because it is easier to blame the network and have the network guy find the REAL problem than it is to be competent at your job in the first place.

    Once the network guy is gone, you can rewire the switch however you want to because the network guy is an idiot.

    Why'd does every port I plug into go into an error disabled state?

  100. Plain English Authorization Requests by Mia'cova · · Score: 1

    I think it comes down to a level of understanding. Perhaps one solution is to make many administrator functions require user authorization. For example, if I worked at an accounting company and had a ton of sensitive documents, an administrator might need a sponsor's permission to view those files. Perhaps the documents are not ACLed for them or my manager, but combined, they could access them. I think the threat is data security. At the moment, any domain admin can access anything on my machine. Since they really don't need access to anything in my user folder, I think it'd be fair to limit that. The people with physical access to data-center machines are all screened by serious background checks. They're trusted about as much as possible. But down the road, I can see full disk encryption with distributed services making physical access much less of a concern. At that point, if a user can understand what an administrator is doing, they can self-audit what people have done/looked at on their work machine. After all, the end-user is the best person to evaluate if something should have been done. It's just that logs and authorization requests are too vague and technical for those users. In most cases, a plain english explanation exists. If the system could phrase access requests in a task oriented fashion, that'd be much easier. A dialog asking for permission to 500 random files vs a "install latest version of Word" or "gathering documents for legal audit" would be a huge change.

  101. They have a name for those by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're called botnets.

  102. Re: audit the root? by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

    The only way to do this is to send the file (or a good copy) off to another box that root on the first box doesn't have access to. It's like keeping multiple copies of a ledger and flagging any detected differences.

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  103. Different Objectives for Dividing Responsibility by billstewart · · Score: 2

    There are a number of different objectives people might have for splitting up superuser powers, and depending on what you're trying to accomplish, there are different kinds of solutions out there. For instance

    • You don't trust unwatched individuals acting alone with the power to do stuff and change logfiles to cover their tracks? - That sounds like what you're asking here? But is that what you really want?
    • You trust your individual superuser as a person, but don't trust his remote access environment not to be hacked, compromised by the cross-site-scripting-virus-wireless-keyboard-logger of the month? - You might be insufficiently paranoid, or you might have much more serious problems than you think?
    • You want multiple people to have sysadmin capabilities so you can get stuff done even if the main lead isn't around or it's night shift? That's what wheel group or equivalent is for.
    • Having One Super Root is too powerful, and you want to split up the different admin functions? There have been a bunch of Secure Unix projects, typically B2 or B3 Orange Book things funded by the NSA, which do that.
    • Root is more powerful than most admins need most of the time, so you'd like to be able to split up admin functions without giving everybody root. - Sometimes setuid and sudo are enough, and the traditional Unix approaches of having different admin user ids (lp/lpr, mail, etc.) worked relatively well but need a bit of help on TCP/IP permissions, and there have been various projects to build tools like that.

    You really need to nail down your problems and objectives carefully before looking for a solution. Security can really improve your operations if it matches your goals, but it can also really interfere with work if it's preventing you from doing things you need, whether that's directly blocking appropriate actions or whether it's by making you use a Linux distribution that's inappropriate because it's the only one with your required security buzzwords all checked.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  104. sudo_base "Are Belong To $Us" by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Sorry, but the meme was just sitting there....

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  105. Re:Answer in kdawson's tagline by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 1

    "trust but verify"

    To get some transparency / accountability, just set up an authlog black hole that includes all of the sudo activity from your servers.

    Ahh, but couldn't a local admin disable that logging?

    --
    They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
  106. B1-rated systems could still have root by billstewart · · Score: 1

    It's been a couple of decades since I messed with it much, so I don't remember if it was B2 or B3 that couldn't have root, but you could definitely still have root on a B1 system, and the AT&T System V MLS version did. Networking has become such an essential component of computer use that you'd need Red Book compliance, not just Orange Book, and during the 80s that was still Way Speculative Research. There were some limited-purpose systems that could comply with Red Book or Orange Book A1, but they didn't really provide user environments.

    Of course, lots of the government procurements that wanted an Orange Book secured system also wanted Ada, and Posix-compliant with the latest Posix spec, and Posix Real-Time, and Specially NSA-Tweaked X.25, and the GOSIP ISO protocol stack, and it all had to be Commercial Off-The Shelf (so the government didn't have to pay for custom development costs, even though they were the only customer), and yes, NASA, I'm talking to you, Orange Book systems didn't really support networking in their certified configs yet, and messing with anything in the Trusted Computing Base required re-certification, and at best you could get two of these checklist features at once, and the only way this stuff ever got to be COTS was that component vendors would agree to buy these things from you so that you could sell the Feds boxes with their parts in them.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:B1-rated systems could still have root by bolthole · · Score: 1

      well, there's a difference between "can have root if you chose to configure it" and "must have root".

      B1 allows you to do away with root(I think) which was what the original poster seemed to be asking about.

      For those who are not aware, "B2", and "B3" are
      "like B1, but even more strict". So if B1 is "good enough", use B1.

    2. Re:B1-rated systems could still have root by billstewart · · Score: 1

      None of the Orange Book specs require you to have a root capability at all, but the higher levels require you not to have it. B1 still permits you to have root, and there are implementations that do.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  107. Re:Different Objectives for Dividing Responsibilit by Kpau · · Score: 1

    You know, the "problem" these "solutions" are meant to address rarely occurred back when the company didn't think it was "okay" to treat their vital personnel badly. That really wasn't that long ago (before late 80s-early 90s). But with the "B Ark" people firmly in charge... so it goes.

  108. MAC and TPI by Thad+Zurich · · Score: 1

    So far, I don't know of anyone that's figured out how to implement Mandatory Access Controls without using cryptography. I don't think you can enforce privileged two-person integrity without MAC, and based on multi-part keys held out of band. Since most environments are designed to attribute actions to a specific individual, nobody implements a TPI technique that would result in two individuals being 'jointly and severally liable' for an action on the system. The closest thing I've ever heard of is environments like OpenVMS that allowed you to set up a second password for an account.

  109. Good luck... by Neanderthal+Ninny · · Score: 1

    Let me get off the floor and stop laughing so hard.
    I wished that I had more than one person here so I can take a good vacation without worries about systems at the office. Also for the other person so they can take real vacation also.
    In this "dismal" economy, I wish that are companies that are willing to hire more than one competent & trustworthy person per shift (if they shifts) so that people can (if they want) have a personal life.
    Let me see reality first of companies willing to hire & keep competent & trustworthy people so they can distribute work properly so that no one is a "dictator" of the system.

  110. Re:Answer in kdawson's tagline by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    If disabling that logging would be logged (because it's initiated before the logging got disabled), and he doesn't have access to the logs themselves (e.g. because they are on a computer he doesn't have access to), I guess disabling the logs would be a sure way to get fired immediately.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  111. Cloudbusting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about an integrated change control system sitting on a document oriented database relying on an underlying Public Key Cryptography Infrastructure with passwords on server IDs that are only available ephemeral and once the servers topples over it is considered compromised. And with the root certifier locked away and allowing only multiple admins to change passwords on Server IDs. Oh yes the system does exist. Guess what it is called? Starts with "N" and ends with "otes". Happy New Year.

  112. Great idea...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So suppose you require 2 users to make any change. One user suddenly decides to be an asshole. Then what?

  113. Re:Different Objectives for Dividing Responsibilit by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    When you have 1000 servers, in 30 or more different configurations, typos, changes, and unexpected conflicts are inevitable. They're aggravated by complete fear of clean-up and integration operations, where ordinary system upgrades and software cleanups cannot occur until after complete project planning, which triples their timescale and makes them far, far more likely to fail catastrophically.

    It's a complex balancing act: I appreciate my role's ability to come in from outside and support the competent people who've been struggling, unthanked and ignored, to actually get their systems working with external validation.

  114. hire people you trust, and treat them well. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    assuming the administrator keeps proper documentation you should be fine, even in the event of their sudden demise.

  115. Change Control and Revision Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Please do tell me which Fortune 500 companies you worked for, so that I can short their stock.

    I've worked with most of the major oil and gas companies in my role with a "Big 3" IT company. I can tell you that of the companies with over 1,000 employees, for the most part they do a solid job of protecting themselves from the single root problem.

    You simple create and "Admin" group, each admin's actions are logged. It doesn't prevent them from tampering, but it does prevent the "Oh darn the admin walked in front of a bus or is on his honeymoon" problem.

    That said, over 15 years ago, I was an admin for a Fortune 1 company. They had a system for recovering forgotten passwords that was...unique.

    1) The user forgets their password and calls the help desk.
    2) The ticket is transferred to the admin team.
    3) The admin calls the auditing department.
    4) The auditing department issues a one time password for a specific account, this could take 3 - 5 minutes if they were there, or you'd have to wait until they returned your call, usually less than an hour.
    5) Reset the user's password.
    6) Call the auditing dept and tell them you were done with the Admin ID.

    Total average time to reset one password, 30 - 60 minutes.

    Do this for every single forgotten password. This is for a company with over 100,000 employees globally, we supported over 10,000 in our little group.

    We demonstrated to them, and tried to explain to them how the system logs every user's action, that their process simply broke the audit trail since every single password reset showed up as "Admin" instead of our individual UserID.

    So, we did what any sane Admin would do. We used the tape backup software's userid and password which also had admin privileges.

    But that was a loooong time ago. I've been told they fixed that kind of silliness years ago.

    1. Re:Change Control and Revision Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please do tell me which Fortune 500 companies you worked for, so that I can short their stock.

      What if you knew that the action of selling, shorting, or buying a stock, meant that the transaction was "CLEARED" through the financial institution that was mentioned above?

  116. Yeah, sure... by RichiH · · Score: 1

    sudo vim

    I need Vim. And with it, I can still do pretty much everything, like spawn a shell. Your Vim is patched to not allow that? Then who installed that version of Vim? Can run a different executable? Like my custom Vim?

    Long story short, in a reasonably complex system (complex enough to do actual work) it's next to impossible to guard against a root user who wants to do damage, just any kind of damage. And reinstalling from backups does not count as I will still have done some damage.

    It boils down to: "I can access the email of anyone in my company. I can access the email of 99% of our customers as we are an ISP. But why would I?" Work and personal ethics. Find people you can trust and work with them.

  117. Re:Answer in kdawson's tagline by nibbles2004 · · Score: 1

    "trust but hold their children hostage" seems to work better i find

  118. RedFlayer, shut the FUCK up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RedFlayer, you're a stupid asshole and that is all there is to it.

  119. Etch-a-sketch? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like your CEO's laptop should have been an Etch-A-Sketch....