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Ballmer Says 90% of Chinese Users Pirate Software
jbrodkin writes "Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer used the official state visit of Chinese President Hu Jintao as an opportunity to complain that 90% of Microsoft software users in China didn't pay for the products. The comments were part of a discussion with Barack Obama and the Chinese president about intellectual property protection. According to a White House transcript, Obama said in a press conference that 'we were just in a meeting with business leaders, and Steve Ballmer of Microsoft pointed out that their estimate is that only 1 customer in every 10 of their products is actually paying for it in China.' Obama didn't detail any specific measures the US and China would take to help Microsoft and other vendors fighting software piracy. 'The Chinese government has, to its credit, taken steps to better enforce intellectual property,' Obama said. 'We've got further agreement as a consequence of this state visit. And I think President Hu would acknowledge that more needs to be done.' Microsoft did not say how it calculated the statistic that 90% of Chinese users aren't paying for Microsoft software."
AN OPEN LETTER TO CHINA
By William Henry Gates III
February 3, 1976
An Open Letter to CHINA
To me, the most critical thing in the CHINA market right now is the lack of good software courses, books and software itself. Without good software and an owner who understands programming, a CHINESE computer is wasted. Will quality software be written for the CHINA market?
Almost a year ago, Paul Allen and myself, expecting the CHINA market to expand, hired Monte Davidoff and developed Altair BASIC. Though the initial work took only two months, the three of us have spent most of the last year documenting, improving and adding features to BASIC. Now we have 4K, 8K, EXTENDED, ROM and DISK BASIC. The value of the computer time we have used exceeds $40,000.
The feedback we have gotten from the hundreds of people who say they are using BASIC has all been positive. Two surprising things are apparent, however, 1) Most of these "users" never bought BASIC (less than 10% of all Altair owners have bought BASIC), and 2) The amount of royalties we have received from sales to CHINA makes the time spent on Altair BASIC worth less than $2 an hour.
Why is this? As the majority of CHINESE must be aware, most of you steal your software. Hardware must be paid for, but software is something to share. Who cares if the people who worked on it get paid?
Is this fair? One thing you don't do by stealing software is get back at MITS for some problem you may have had. MITS doesn't make money selling software. The royalty paid to us, the manual, the tape and the overhead make it a break-even operation. One thing you do do is prevent good software from being written. Who can afford to do professional work for nothing? What CHINESE can put 3-man years into programming, finding all bugs, documenting his product and distribute for free? The fact is, no one besides us has invested a lot of money in CHINESE software. We have written 6800 BASIC, and are writing 8080 APL and 6800 APL, but there is very little incentive to make this software available to CHINA. Most directly, the thing you do is theft.
What about the guys who re-sell Altair BASIC, aren't they making money on CHINESE software? Yes, but those who have been reported to us may lose in the end. They are the ones who give CHINA a bad name, and should be kicked out of any club meeting they show up at.
I would appreciate letters from any one who wants to pay up, or has a suggestion or comment. Just write to me at 1180 Alvarado SE, #114, Albuquerque, New Mexico, 87108. Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and deluge the CHINA market with good software.
Bill Gates
General Partner, Micro-Soft
John
[citation needed]
Ballmer: Goddam it Hu, (Throws chair) 90% of the Chinese people are pirating software.
Hu: Yes, and you see where the problem is, they are using Windows to do it.
Look where all this talking got us, baby.
Oh Steve, people can make up statistics to prove anything. 14 % of all people know that.
They bought PCs with Windows (and Microsoft counted the sale) then they installed *NIX!
I kid, I kid...
Thus spake the master programmer:
"When the program is being tested, it is too late to make design changes." (Tao)
So he must know its true. What is so disturbing to me is the notion that some of those 90% users will pay for future releases, keeping MS in business for many decades to come. Its hard to argue with 1.2 billion potential or current users.
I've seen claims like this from Microsoft numerous times and I have to wonder: Where do they get their numbers? Does Windows dial-back and report if it is pirated or not? Or do they just guess how many computers are sold and compare that to the number of Windows licenses sold? Am I a Windows-pirate because I do not have Windows on any of my computers? How do we know that these people who are supposedly using pirated versions of Windows even have computers?
9/11: Never forget it was a false-flag operation
Worst thing about piracy in China? I reckon it's a significant factor behind *@#%#$ IE6 just not dying: http://troy.hn/cOySCO
Microsoft MVP - Developer Security
Party beliefs are that property is that of the people, really you should only have to buy one copy for all of China, in this case I think they've overpaid, but that could be said for anyone that pays the Micro$oft tax.
Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
Maybe if a single copy of Windows didn't cost an entire month's wages for 90% of Chinese software users they wouldn't pirate it so much.
This is a hacked account, for which the owner can not be held responsible.
Working for a Chinese company , I can almost believe it. They don't believe or understand why we should have to purchase licenses for software. If you can crack it then it's free.
If you can get away with violating rules and regulations , then it 's okay. Anyway , there are so many loopholes in rules in regulations, and they pretty much know them all.
I know, they say , oh the boogey man will get you. Well , I can tell you it's been 10 yrs and he ain't been here yet.
They will steal any software that they can. But even given that , they can't steal 90% of it.
but 90%, that does seem a little steep. i guess my big question is , "How do you know this Steve?"
China has their own distro of Linux. You don't have to pay, just support the Open source royalty free developers who are working on the projects you need. If they choose to use Microsoft products illegally then they are just hypocrites.
US-China trade deals are like a wife swap except the US is the only one that brought their wife.
Surprised Pres. Obama didn't deflect the question with "but we got some pandas in our fancy zoos locked in for 5 more years, so win some lose some".
Really do you think Obama will push the issue at all? With all the issues the US has with China, the first few days of Hu's visit resulted in nothing but securing pandas for zoos for a few more years. Whoop dee fucking doo!
If Ballmer thinks anything will be done on this front, he is stupider then I thought.
We compete with people who pay lower costs (legally) for everything from software to medicine.
Then on top of that, 90% pirate.
Good lord, no wonder the jobs are going over there. We should fine the hell out of any company selling products in the U.S. which were made by people using pirated software. But we keep those fines for U.S. countries and citizens while giving China a free ride.
This ends one way.. but it will probably take a few more years to play out.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I have been to the crowded Chinese technology markets. They are fantastic places; it feels like Blade Runner or something else out of a Dick novel. Food stalls, people selling every kind of hardware (except the newest), all software everywhere (a lot in English, but most in Chinese), people of every variety (I, a big blond guy, didn't stand out much. If I had hunched over and worn a coat, most people wouldn't have noticed me.), and a variety of tongues. In the hinterland, the best spoken English I found was in the computer markets.
But if 10% of the non-Chinese produced software being sold was legal, then I am a fool who knows nothing about computers. I would say that number suggested by Ballmer should be far closer to 100%. There was nothing legal being sold in the computer markets, malls, or anything else I saw selling Microsoft products.
Oh yeah, the place is infested with computer viruses as well. There's no kind of virus like a Chinese virus that western produced AV products don't recognize. If you're going to do business in China, you should do it with a Linux based OS.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
they have a heavily discounted version for the Chinese market
In other news, the Windows Phone 7 user is really mad. We tried to call him but he was out of credit.
Rather than convince its citizens to send billions of Yuan to a US company, maybe the Chinese government would be better served to promote FOSS solutions like (Linux + Openoffice come to mind immediately but I'm sure there are other free/cheap office suites)
If I were an official in the Chinese government, I'd trust a Chinese forked Redhat distribution combed by loyal Chinese developers a lot more than a closed source operating system from a large US company to keep my secrets safe -- there's no telling what backdoors the US goverment asked MS to embed.
I visited MS campus about 15 years ago and at the time they were fond of claiming that the Chinese government was actively pirating MS software for distribution and resale. They even went so far as to say that they owned the equipment necessary to duplicate their holographic license stickers to produce physical pirated copies for resale outside the country.
Seems odd, when you consider things like reviews of the iPad getting dinged because it "can't run pirated software" and the Chinese Android marketplace where malware is being spread to Android devices...
You'd think that the vast majority of Chinese users would pirate.
Or is the remaining 10% those who simply aren't detected?
Traditionally, the title assumed by the leader of China is Chairman, not President.
Our percentage of knockoff golf clubs is higher than for software.
Home of The Suki Series
Dear Mr. Ballmer
We openly admit that it is common practice in this country not to pay MicroSoft's predatory pricing if another avenue presents itself. However, we'd like to assure you that we're getting tired of the damned bluescreens, the most annoying of which occurred at the Beijing Olympics, right in front of God and everybody, if we believed in God, and we have decided to return all of our bootleg copies and what few legitimate copies we could scrape together. The crates should be arriving soon. We will be switching to Linux. We wish your company good fortune and hope you sell many more copies of Windows to the US military.
Regards,
China
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Are glad they invested in that $10 CD library from the vendor on the street corner.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
a market which is bigger than 1 billion, (more than 1/7th of the world, mind that) would just open itself to you, just as you wanted it to ?
oh boy. that only happens in america, or satellite states since the corporations have the government all in check all the time. its not that way with china, 1+bn, india ~1bn, and russia (200 mil+) and so on.
its high time to wake up to the fact that not all world turns on the hinge of governments which are vulnerable to riaa, mpaa, bsa, this that.
Read radical news here
If I were an official in the Chinese government, I'd trust a Chinese forked Redhat distribution combed by loyal Chinese developers a lot more than a closed source operating system from a large US company to keep my secrets safe
not to mention all the world, even the u.s. corporations themselves are finding out it to be the same, with the news we are getting of nsa, cia, fbi tampering and corporations willingly letting them tamper and install backdoors in their software for them.
Read radical news here
What made you think you would be getting a cut?
Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer used the official state visit of Chinese President Hu Jintao as an opportunity to complain that 90% of Microsoft software users in China didn't pay for the products.
/. community?
So, about the same ratio as the
Don't take it personally, but I'm not going to read your pithy response to my post.
No mention of the threat of intercontinental ballistic chairs...
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
Someday people will stop using his software
Bill Gates, 1998: "About 3 million computers get sold every year in China, but people don't pay for the software. Someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1023-212942.html
Bill Gates, 2007: "It's easier for our software to compete with Linux when there's piracy than when there's not."
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article2098235.ece
Steve Ballmer, 2001: "Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches. That's the way that the license works."
"Microsoft CEO takes launch break with the Sun-Times" (1 June 2001) Chicago Sun Times
Barack Obama, 2011: "So we were just in a meeting with business leaders, and Steve Ballmer of Microsoft pointed out that their estimate is that only one customer in every 10 of their products is actually paying for it in China. And so can we get better enforcement, since that is an area where America excels -- intellectual property and high-value added products and services."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/01/19/press-conference-president-obama-and-president-hu-peoples-republic-china
The numbers, 2009: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/software-piracy-in-china/
Microsoft wants hegemony in China over free (and freedom-respecting) options like GNU/Linux. It has always viewed piracy as a way to achieve this goal, but it doesn't have any real plan to turn those pirated copies of Windows and MS Office into revenue. Are they changing strategies and trying to muscle China now? Or is the U.S. gov't playing hardball for its own reasons? Or is it all just bullshit sabre-rattling? A real crackdown on Windows bootlegging would almost certainly make GNU/Linux the dominant platform in China. Parts of the Chinese gov't have pushed the Red Flag Linux distro in the past (specifically to avoid Windows licensing costs in Internet cafes), and there has been plenty of talk about the arrogance of Microsoft and the West, along with fears of potential backdoors in Windows. I'm sure the Chinese would prefer to be distributing a homegrown distro rather than having to pay up when Microsoft and the U.S. gov't come to collect.
Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
Chairman Hu should have replied simply:
"We understand your concerns. However, the Chinese people feel that intellectual property belongs to the people as a whole. It is fundamental to our way of life. As such it is nearly impossible to convince them to pay for something that they truly believe should be free. There are only two solutions. The first is that Microsoft secure their software in such a way that it can not be copied with your express consent. This option has been shown over several decades to be impossible. The second is the approach I shall take... We can not train our entire law enforcement system to distinguish all the varieties of Microsoft software and its current DRM status, but we do not want you to feel like we are steeling from you. Instead, effective immediately, Microsoft software will be illegal in the Peoples Republic of China. All traffic to your websites will be blocked. All mention of your companies name on our search engines will be gone (Google has assured us this will not be a problem.) Any version of any Microsoft product found on any citizens computer will be intermediately deleted and replaced with an open source equivalent on the spot. We hope that this small gesture will stem the tide of revenues Microsoft has been losing to Chinese thieves over the years."
Then you make more profit than you have in the lifetime of microsoft!
Grub?
If it rhymes it must be true.
99% of Americans in Iraq are involved in stealing oil and illegal war... What is Ballmers opinion about that?
Didn't you hear? They fixed that. Americans returning from Iraq are now given a pat-down by the TSA to check for any stolen oil drums they might have hidden under their cloths. The problem has almost vanished!
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I would guess its more like 99% pirated.
I wish Ballmer had thrown a chair at Hu.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Windows, and MS applications, could be a lot harder to pirate than they are.
They are not, because Microsoft would rather have infringing users of MS software, rather than have those users migrate to non-MS software. An infringing MS desktop is still an MS desktop, and MS can count it among their installed base, which works in their favor in all situations when someone makes a pro-MS argument based on installed base.
They even let infringing users keep Windows dynamically up to date!
You can't hold the view that all users are welcome, infringing or not, and then at the same time complain about a large nonpaying fraction of your user base.
They just don't want to say the real one, probably resembling 0.00001%, because then it would appear that the paying users are a weird minority.
People will then rationalize continuing not to pay as a way of avoiding joining a weird minority.
Someone just downloaded my copyrighted material! I feel myself... fading. Somehow, I can magically tell if someone on the internet broke a copyright law!
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
It was a good strategy when there was no strong alternative to windows, but it is much too late to squeeze now.
MS gambled that pirated windows would keep any competition down until IP laws favoring US were adopted in china.
Any pressure applied now would just shift chinese users to linux, which would have worldwide consequences for MS and their partners.
I think its just being used as a bargaining chip.
Who are these 1 in 10 users actually buying it? It`s probably one of those thing you use to show how rich you are.
Here's my Picasso...oh and the best thing, I actually have a legit Windows Vista Ultimate! Look on how I can leave auto update on without worrying.
I don't have an intelligent phone, so I need to be.
So you're saying it's like 1999-America there?
They pirate the software because it is state/party policy, of course. Chairman Mao's little book told them that they would be given anything they needed. They needed software, so they took it because they were told it would be given to them. They have no reason to expect anything different.
President Perry 2016 or else.
"Excuse my country Mr. Ballmer (and Mr. Gates), I'll set up a law to ban copying MS software and make people buy it at your prices."
Following day:
"CNN reports China developing their own OS (out of FreeBSD... not Linux!), set their own set of open standards, etc... and will set up app stores for people to buy software. Expect release in 6 months"
After 7 months:
"Forbes reports top software app store in the US is the china app store (0.01 apps)."
1 year later:
MS abandons selling OS software, pushes Congress to impose taxes/tariffs on the china app store. Congress rejects the idea. MS goes Chap 11.
2 yrs later:
China app store hits 100 trillion downloads.
Ballmer is playing political theater to keep the price of MS products at current levels, business 101 says you need China and he'll likely have to lower those prices (supply and demand).
That level of piracy can only be sustained by deliberate government inaction. In other words, they're conspiring to steal and under WTO regulations, the government should be fined an amount that exceeds the value of the theft. Treble damages might apply.
Why is it exactly that we in the US don't more aggressively pursue WTO remedies? Could it be that we also violate WTO regs wrt agricultural protectionism? Or are we that afraid of the Chinese?
-- "The only thing that is ever new in the world is the history you do not know." -- Harry Truman
Haven't we seen this a few times already? US and China meet and agree to work on IP or pirating and then we hear of more and more Chinese PC makers putting Linux on their computers. Then we hear of a deal between China and Microsoft where Microsoft pays out millions and donates millions of licenses,etc and Windows is back to being popular. The cycle just keep repeating and will billions of potential customers, it'll probably keep on repeating itself until the public says frack it, we're sticking with Linux. oh wait, it's a communist regime so after taking millions from Microsoft they'll order Windows be used. oh well, see ya'll back here again in 5 or 6 years.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
90% of the people in China do not have a computer. So Microsoft's 90% is really 9% of the people in China do not pay for their Microsoft Software.
I don't think that's how statistics works. If 90% of chinese don't have computers but 90% of those who do use pirated software then software piracy rates are 90%. Also I believe only large multinational corps in china pay for software, everyone else just copies it. And given that they use windows to make the copies, I think that windows should be declared a criminal tool and outlawed.
It was a good strategy when there was no strong alternative to windows, but it is much too late to squeeze now. MS gambled that pirated windows would keep any competition down until IP laws favoring US were adopted in china. Any pressure applied now would just shift chinese users to linux, which would have worldwide consequences for MS and their partners.
I think its just being used as a bargaining chip.
My thoughts exactly...but what kind of bargaining chip could it possibly be?! The Chinese must be laughing at it.
Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
Now the Chinese are making pirate copies of Steve Ballmer. It isn't difficult. But, of course, they are useless.
Hereafter, show proper respect to Chairman Ballmer.
If not they may ship quality controlled product.
90% of Chinese Users Pirate Software
... and the other 10% are just borrowing it for a reeeaaaalllllly long time.
That is what they said (customers, Chinese users, etc etc)... I don't know why you're pointing out that out, as it seems nobody would be fooled when what they said is as clear as day.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
90%? So what?
Practically 100% of Linux software users in the whole world don't pay for the products.
I am anarch of all I survey.
I'd wager that 90% of American, British, and misc. European people also pirate software. So what?
If this were a problem, it'd have a negative impact on society. If it has any impact, the impact is a result of other societal issues which likewise cause people to not buy software.
I just paid $500ish for a computer. It came with shit software. Why should I have to pay more than $500 for that? It's not worth it to me.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
They might not be paying for their software now, but they sure will later.
The only reason Microsoft software is used there *at all* is because it is free. If they charged the same amount as on the shelves in the US, they just wouldn't sell any. At least this way, they get people hooked - heck, they pretty much are already hooked.
My wife just bought an MSI laptop and it came with Microsoft Vista (a real copy), but it didn't have Microsoft Office and the cost of that is prohibitive. On goes LibreOffice, but it's different, so I can see a pirate copy of Microsoft Office getting on there somehow, if not the whole OS (malware included).
On the other hand, when she has to, she can be forced to make do with Ubuntu and LibreOffice - for example, when her laptop is unavailable and has to use mine.
So, if they are forced to pay the real price for Microsoft Software, I predict a big upsurge in the use of the free (or [much] cheaper) alternatives (irrespective of if they're also 'libre'). Of course, libre often also means free.
Max.
In the form of other parts of government "borrowing" from Social Security. Remember Al Gore and his lockbox? It was a way to tell us we were getting robbed by the financial elite (and to put an end to it)... too bad that guy never took office, eh?
Too bad our senior citizens are all hyped up about "austerity" and "deficit reduction" when the reality is that our debt is owed mostly to them.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Hu 'chaired' the meeting? Was it Ballmer?
The original open letter to HOBBYIST
The OP only changed Hobbyist to China. Plus cela change....
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
The most profound comment was
"wwwwwwwwooooooo woooooo come on... get uuuuuupppp! wooooooooo!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc
In my next incarnation, I hope to come back as a code monkey.
Asians really are smarter.
Ballmer says 90% of Users in China should be giving more money to Microsoft. -- There, fixed that for you,
"Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
"Don't worry, Mr.Gates, I'll use all my influence to make them replace that software with free alternatives. Would that satisfy you?"
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
will shut Balmer up and get Microsoft's claws out of China.
In a pissing contest, President Hu's got a much bigger bladder than Balmer.
GreatWall is free as in beer and free as in libre.
Hu's got the demographics on his side he's also got the will to wash Microsoft right out of his hair.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Just give the Chinese government a bill for all the copies of Windows and Office at retail price... blam! no more China debt.
Man, they should make me President.
How many more years will slashdot have an off-by-one error on your Score in your profile?
Wow - and here, I didn't even realize 90% of the Chinese already had boats, let alone parrots and eye patches!
It's really Microsoft's own problem and they are big enough to look after it themselves without Obama, Cheney, Palin or even Oprah getting involved.
The "issues the US has with China" are mostly internal to the USA anyway - China didn't force people to shift their manufacturing out of the USA. Most of the foreign policy issues are about China getting a lot of influence in different parts of the world while the USA has been either asleep at the wheel or busy elsewhere for nearly two decades.
Completely priced out of the market means it's just too expensive. As an example, about the only commercial CAD program that was not a complete toy for a very long time was AutoCAD because it undercut the other software and drove them out of the market.