Slashdot Mirror
Requiring Algebra II In High School Gains Momentum
ChadHurley writes with this quote from the Washington Post:
"Of all of the classes offered in high school, Algebra II is the leading predictor of college and work success, according to research that has launched a growing national movement to require it of graduates. In recent years, 20 states and the District have moved to raise graduation requirements to include Algebra II, and its complexities are being demanded of more and more students. The effort has been led by Achieve, a group organized by governors and business leaders and funded by corporations and their foundations, to improve the skills of the workforce. Although US economic strength has been attributed in part to high levels of education, the workforce is lagging in the percentage of younger workers with college degrees, according to the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development."
And algebra II isn't already required? 0_o
Perhaps my kids will get a better schooling at Khan Academy afterall.
Come on, people! We should all know this already. Just because "Algebra II" is a predictor of success, doesn't mean that it causes the success. It is much more likely that the smarter students who are (or at least were, before the depression) more likely to succeed are also more likely to take Algebra II. Making everyone take it is going to have about as much success as cargo cults did.
Who's going to pay for it? Every state is cutting funding and increasing class sizes. You don't just learn this stuff on your own, and how the heck is a teacher with 45 students (2 or 3 special needs and a few ESL ones mixed in) going to pull that off?
Of course, if your goal is to give public schools impossible goals so they can fail and be replaced by private schools, this is a great idea. It'll mix well with no child left behind. And the great thing about private schools is they get to expel their problem students, so they're numbers always look great!
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I guess I'm surprised it's not simply offered.
Last I recall the math sequence 'way back in my day' was Algebra 1 - Geometry - Algebra 2 - Trig.
So even if Trig fell off the map Algebra 2 would be senior year.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
For slashdotters, the amount of algebra we use knowingly and unknowingly is much higher than one thinks in our daily lives. The amount of folks that use it wrong to come at their conclusions while chatting with them is even higher. I really hope they do require this.
I for one would welcome our new Algebraic Overlords.
Tired of my customary (Score:1)
Um, I took Algebra II in high school, and it was required.
In 1971.
When did the nimrods decide to ditch that? And in favor of what other requirements?
Actually, I'm afraid the answer will annoy me to no end.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
...told me what exactly Algebra II is. Whatever it is, we don't call it that where I live.
As many others have noted correlation is not causation, but I have noted a correlation that those who want to make Algebra II a requirement should pay attention to. I have noticed that as we as a nation have increased the "requirements" for graduation, the education level of our graduates has diminished. Central planning does not work, not even in education.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Maybe we should require Probability and Statistics, then, since people still think they can reverse cause and effect.
"Look! Successful people drive expensive cars! Tell your brother to go buy one, that ought to get his business back on its feet in no time!"
FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
Boy, that's backward thinking. It is because it is optional that it is such a good indicator. Only people who are planning ahead to college, or who actually enjoy math take it. Forcing everyone to take it won't magically make everyone else start planning ahead to college or enjoying math too.
Personally I think Calculus 1 should be required as well, I mean are limits that hard?
That requiring Algebra II would've prevented me from graduating High School. At that point in my life I didn't know that software is what I wanted to do, and Algebra II was just too abstract for me to spend the effort on learning it. Once I had a way to apply Algebra - it was much easier.
pi! oh wait
Is this your first time on the internet in a month?
We switched to Tau, While not as tasty, It's more likely to get you girls.
Cause students who are not smart enough to do this to fail or get a bad grade lowering their GPA and making it more difficult for them to get into a good college.
Leading economists to conclude that the US is !@*ed
Schools that just haven't required Algebra 2 are the working-class providers of America. Schools that do require it already seem to be producing students that do succeed better in college and beyond.
I took Algebra 2 in 10th grade and then Precalculus in 11th grade, and then Calculus in 12th grade. I went on to college and graduated with a degree in civil engineering. I have a friend who took Algebra 2 in 12th grade. He went to Devry and.... well, let's just say he wished he worked harder back in high school.
I think at the very least, pre-calculus should be required by the 12th grade.
Previewing comments are for sissies!
if all the schools do is rubber stamp the grades. Having worked as a tutor in college math lab when I was a piss poor student, there were people seeking help in the lab that can't handle basic fraction arithmetic.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Algebra II, and its complexities
What complexities?
Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
soon enough you wont even be able to deliver pizza without at least 2 years of debt
"Algebra II is the leading predictor of college and work success"
This is not precisely true. The most accurate statement is "The taking (and passing) of math levels beyond Algebra I (and maybe Geometry) is the leading predictor of college and work success." There's nothing about Algebra II as a subject that would innately give humans an edge in college or life success. It's going above and beyond the minimum requirements that's good for the student.
Moreover, a student going above and beyond the minimum may be more than a sign of innate mathematical competence. It may be a symptom of certain school, peer, or family pressures-- all of which combine in the "culture of education" which is a fantastic predictor of being accepted into 4-year institutions of higher education.
Teach it in context of its potential applications. Without this, it's no different than diagraming sentences all day.
Sure, you'll know all about sentence structure, but you won't be able to write worth a damn.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Calculus is the foundation of SO many different things. Almost every discipline from medicine to engineering to economics requires a foundation in calculus to understand.
Not every student needs to go into engineering or economics. A couple of my high school buddies went into auto body and they live FAR better than I do as a programmer (not to mention they were buying homes and starting families while I was still starving in college).
I'm much more concerned that schools are eliminating vocational electives than not requiring algebra II or calc. There is nothing wrong with being an HVAC tech.
Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
I took not only Algebra II, but AP Calculus (AB) in high school. I never thought it made me all that special.
You're going to be in for a world of hurt if you hit college without Algebra II, if you want to do anything even vaguely technical.
Many schools offer a course on geometry via mathematical proof.That covers a lot of abstract logic theory.
But not because it "should" be required already, or that the study doesn't correlate.
It's stupid because this is just another way for politicians and businessmen to attach a fix to public education without actually having to do anything.
Let's get rid of Phys Ed (Budget Cuts), Music (Budget Cuts), Art (Budget Cuts), Any language but Spanish (Budget Cuts) But oh hell let's put them all in Algebra 2, then they'll be smart and productive!!!
Some kids are going to college (I don't count 2 year degrees or online schools here) and they need Alg.2, some kids are not, they don't need it. 90% of the population doesn't even do arithmetic every day in their regular jobs, they don't need Alg.2.
All you guys spouting how you took it, and "wow you didn't know that it wasn't required," well let's just say that you were oblivious to all the "regular" ed kids who took Consumer Math. I was in the higher math classes too, but that didn't mean that everyone took them.
I had a sig, but
As they say in the study, it's quite possible motivated kids take Algebra II and that's why they do well in life. One of the study authors says the causal relationship is "very very weak." Meanwhile, requiring that everyone take this to graduate means more kids drop out, and then try to go into the workforce with no degree at all.
It'd be really great if we were all Philosopher-Kings that understood everything, but one-size-fits-all education is the sort of utopian idea that has difficulty translating to real life.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
I have not taken a GCSE Maths test, so I can't really speak to what might actually be on that test. But my impression is that second-year Algebra in the U.S. is a little more in-depth than what is required by the GCSE, as the course is generally taught as a precursor to Calculus. This is one reason why it is not required -- if you have no intention to go on to an education that requires the use of calculus, why should you suffer through the precursors to calculus (which also include a full course on Trigonometry)?
Also, don't sound too smug about the British education system ... apparently you don't actually have to know any maths to pass the GCSE Maths test with flying colors.
Breakfast served all day!
Ok, let's look at this. First part of the quote:
Algebra II is the leading predictor of college and work success
Ok, that makes sense. Second part of the quote:
according to research that has launched a growing national movement to require it of graduates.
That is idiotic. The reason why Algebra II is a predictor of success is because it is one of the classes you opt-in and take if you're going to college. Only people with career plans in high school take Algebra II - of course it's a predictor of success. And conversely, if you make it mandatory it won't be an indicator anymore.
Reminds me of the joke about the guy who heard that most accidents happen within ten miles of his home, so he moved.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
At least Stats or Calculus 2xx and Biology, Chem or Geology for Liberal Arts.
More for people getting a teaching certificate, even if you are going to teach English or Arts, have some background knowledge.
Actually, there's been a push in recent years to gradually phase it in over a few years. Meaning that elementary school students are more likely to see and use some of it with appropriate terminology than in the past. I remember when I was a kid, they would slip a small amount of it into the curriculum surreptitiously without calling it that, hence the shock later one.
Where does Algebra II start up? It's been 20+ years since high school, so I forget the line between Alg I & Alg II.
Also, nothing wrong with a little edumication! [yes, that was on porpoise]
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Abstract logic class? Its called Geometry.
If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
And see if they can Algebra themselves out of a paper bag.
a group organized by governors and business leaders and funded by corporations and their foundations
Their mathematical skills seem to be limited to "innovative and creatively adjusted accounting", economical fibs and down right lies.
Give them a simple Algebra problem, and they would all delegate it to a subordinate . . . who would google for the answer.
The hypocrisy . . . the hypocrisy . . . - Colonel Kurtz
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Why do we have to do E=MC again if we have already done it ?
Because you did it wrong.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
My high school required Algebra II/Trig.
I think there's another math class that's even more important and should be required by all 50 states: Personal Finance class. In this day and age everyone should know how to take care of their personal finances including loans, investments, purchases, etc.
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
For the benefit for those of us who live outside of Americatown, what is Algebra II? What year would you take it? The II suggest to me 10th grade, is this correct?
How many math courses are required to graduate in most US high schools now? Also, does USA actually have a national high school curriculum? In Canada referring to a course by name means very little once you cross provincial borders.
Sadly, this has happened to me.
"The computer says your change is $13.63"
"But I only gave you a $10."
"BUT THE COMPUTER SAYS"
"No really, are you sure"
"YES"
Fine. I'll consider it a tax on your company for hiring idiots.
I too Algebra 2 and graduated around 2000. For those of us in the hardest/college prep path, it was basically a requirement. Every smart kid in the magnet program was basically told, "If you don't go Algebra 1 8th grade, Geometry 9th, Algebra 2 10th, Trig 11th, and Calc 12th, you're not going to make it into college. If you elect an Honors class instead of the AP class that requires you to give up lunch every day, you will never make it into a good college. " . Of course, the state requirements at the time only ask for one year of Algebra 1 and one of Geometry. And you know what? That's fine.
Primary K-12 education should be a place where we instill the BASICS of what we wish EVERYONE in our society to know. There are smart kids that walk out of AP Calculus and grab a 29.80% interest rate credit card when they get to college because they don't have basic financial sense, or overdraft constantly because they can't balance a checkbook. That very same Algebra 1 I took in 8th grade is taught to Bachelor's Degree candidates for a basic math credit in major universities. Hell, there is even a "Functional Math/Remedial Math" in college that counts for everyone but the kids going into the sciences. Does it really belong in primary school?
The primary school control and structure is basically poisonous and is better suited to creating good little consumers under control, than informed citizens. Its stressful and time consuming to have an 8 period day, filled with honors and AP (college credit) level classes, every day. By the time children pass 8th grade, they should have most of the basics. Let the smart kids who are taking Algebra 1 crammed in with busywork from 7 other classes in 8th grade, just LEAVE. Go take that same Algebra 1 in college. If they want to go to Algebra 2, that's fine.
Sure, make 12 grades of education available, but restructure it for the entire curriculum to ask the "Would I want every person I meet to absolutely have this skill and does it benefit society?. Reading, yes. Writing and typing, yes. How our government works? Of course. Working knowledge of history for the past 100 years? (Ever wonder why most High Schools, including mine teach from 1700 forward, but never quite make it past WWII? That's by design...). Basic finance, basic maths etc..but despite what most of us geeks may think, the vast population of the country gets along just fine without Algebra II.
The structure we have here isn't working. People aren't coming out with the kind of skills that are important to function in society, but fumble through "advanced" topics and promptly forget it to make room for the next 7 periods just to prove they're good enough for a college education. I say, set a reasonable curriculum and stick to it - if the "smart" kids are finishing it by the 7th or 8th grade, FINE. Let them go onto other things. These harder subjects are often college material and are meant to be attended to in college, not crammed into high school. If it takes the slower kids 12 years, they skill come out able to operate at an average societal level. We don't need to start regulating Algebra II. Those that want it, will find it.
Let's be honest, anything beyond very basic algebra is not needed for a great many jobs in this world. Not everyone is going to be an engineer, scientist, doctor, etc.
My son wants to be an auto mechanic, and since it is the only thing he has ever shown an interest in, I've strongly encouraged this career path. As bonus, this type of job can't be outsourced to India or China.
I can't think of any benefit to my son, or millions of other high school student to be forced to take Algebra II (I took AP Calculus in high school, but I was going into engineering). What I'd really like to see is a "Consumer Finance 101" type class as a mandatory graduation requirement.
Necron69
It's dumb to talk about "adding more requirements" to a high school education in America. Requirements for what? Graduation? If you tell a student that he can't graduate high school without learning advanced mathematics that he'll never use in his daily life, you'll just end up with fewer high school graduates, not more educated ones.
K-12 education is compulsory in most states. Until the 12th grade, a low-achieving kid has been forced to be in school. Now you're saying you're going to force him to learn, too? I don't think so. Once that student turns 18, legally there is not a damn thing you can do to keep him in the classroom.
One side effect of all the emphasis on college education these days is that the message to high school students is that a high school diploma is meaningless and only a college degree gives you any advantage in the workforce. So if you're a student who isn't planning to go to college, why would you bother with a high school diploma? It's worthless, right? Especially if the required coursework includes college preparatory classes like Algebra 2 -- a kid who is not college-bound but is held back at age 18 when all of his friends are graduating is going to walk away, and in his mind it will just be good riddance to high school.
On the other hand, for college-bound students, Algebra II is a requirement anyway. It's a requirement because it's a prerequisite for other college courses. Every kid knows this, and the ones who want to get into those courses as soon as possible start signing up for the prerequisites in high school. If they don't do well at them in high school, they can usually re-take them at the college level (and they will, if they want to advance). It's all built into the education system; we don't need any artificial "requirements" at the high school level.
And consider this: In the State of California at least, you do not need a high school diploma to enter the community college program. Let me repeat: There is no prerequisite to enrolling in a community college program other than that you be 18 years of age. So let's say you're a college-bound high school senior who has not yet passed the Algebra II requirement. Are you going to hang around high school for another year, re-taking Algebra II when you've passed all of your other classes? Of course not. You'd enroll in community college and re-take Algebra II while you continue your education, not waste time hanging around an education system that's basically designed to babysit teenagers.
Breakfast served all day!
Although US economic strength has been attributed in part to high levels of education, the workforce is lagging in the percentage of younger workers with college degrees, according to the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development.
That statement is borderline nonsense. The US has more younger college grads running around now than it ever had previously. The trouble is that the economy is so lousy that well over 30% of them are not employing their education in their professional careers. Why would anyone (without some sort of political agenda) describe that situation as a shortage of educated workers?
I am officially gone from
My Algebra II teacher was so bad I didn't take another Math class for 15 years. Starting from that point, going forward, I am a straight student who received Cs in Algebra II. Somewhere there's a disconnect. And it spread to infect everything.
It's rare that a careless error in writing can mess you up as badly as one in algebra will, but I'd say that's a golden example if I've ever seen one =)
There are a lot of posts saying "well, it's opt-in and college prep, so don't confuse correlation with causation". OK, I buy that, but here is something else to think about.
Critical thinking skills.
The main thing missing from modern education is teaching critical thinking skills at an early age. Algebra, by it's nature, requires developing both critical thinking skills and abstract thinking skills. There are a lot of ways to teach both of those skills outside of algebra. That is what the education system should be trying to achieve.
If you have good critical thinking skills you won't confuse anecdotes with data -- so here are some anecdotes to consider:
I once worked in a research division where I was surrounded by very smart Ph.D.'s. I noted that the corner office did *not* go to the guy with the highest IQ, it went to the guy with the best bullshit detector. Excuse me: best critical thinking skills. It's one thing to be able to work out an answer -- it's another thing entirely to be able to ask the right questions.
A friend of mine is a genuine Okie -- as in when he was a kid his family went back and forth between California and Oklahoma during the depression -- his dad would get a little money picking fruit in Cal, head back to OK and start ranching again, go bankrupt, head back to California.... lather, rinse, repeat. His mom was a big believer in education and *insisted* that my friend complete the 8th grade, which he did. He went on to become a farm and ranch manager, as in several dozens of workers, directed a multi-million dollar capital investment, and had access to a plane and pilot for weekly crop inspections. He is financially very comfortable. That man has one of the best bullshit detector I've ever seen.
Give kids good critical thinking skills. Bonus points for giving them abstract thinking. Everything else is just a tool in service of those two.
Teach kids how to ask the right questions.
the only reasion employers are demanding a higher educated workforce is becouse they can. due to the friggin depression. everyone needs jobs that are not there and whont be there untill we fix some major issues hear. so they can demand insane regs for the jobs. unlike when most people had jobs and they would hire anyone willing to work.
Algebra 2 was required for me in HS.. as well as a third year of math(be it trig and precalc, stats, or consumer math for the dummies)
its just due to are crappy ass ecnomy right now. they can demand insane things to get a rather shittty job. becouse there is not enough jobs to go around. now when it reverses and thers plenty of jobs and not enough workforce they stop caring and if your willing to work they hire you educated or not. just supply and demand with people.
ayea i agree i knoe a few frends that spent a good chunk of change on collage and have crappy jobs. why becouse there field got outsourced.
I watched 10 minutes of Trig videos the other day that cured 2 hours of classroom torture. I don't know about any of you, but math class has always been useless to me. Maybe it is just the small bites (Khan videos) that are so easy to consume? Khan makes my math life so much easier. Now I just daydream in class, get my credit, then go home and learn it myself using Google and Khan Academy. On top of that, I watched another 10 minutes and moved ahead of the class!
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
The school where I taught math had a strong department of math teachers.
Algebra II was required. But it didn't mean anything. If a student can't pass the class, they just talk to their counselor, and get moved into a computer-math class, which doesn't require anywhere close to the same level of understanding.
The fact that a student can't (or won't) pass a particular math class will not prevent them from graduating high school. There are too many alternate paths.
I think it would be a very good thing if everyone DID understand the material in an Algebra II class, but I don't see it happening. Locally, at least 10% of the adult population never passed Algebra I.
How great can Algebra II and Algebra III be if they are still using Roman numerals?
This has got to be one of the more egregious "correlation != causation" errors I've seen lately. Why might a student having taken Algebra II correlate highly with later success? Perhaps precisely because it is optional. The set of students who voluntarily choose to take an optional math class is likely to have an abundance of other traits that contribute to success. A love of learning, ambition, general mathematics ability, parents who're riding them to achieve, etc. I see little evidence to suggest that if all students were required to take Algebra II we'd see a commensurate jump in the aggregate achievement of all students.
Allow me to suggest that if all students were required to take statistics in high school we might see fewer ridiculous correlation/causation errors like this in the popular press.
Which is why, in addition to counting back change, I was taught to put the money on the little shelf between the cash register and the money drawer. But nobody seems to do that anymore either.
Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
I sat down first day in Algebra II, looked over the text book, discovered I knew it already, and asked to be excused. I took trig instead. Then I took Calculus because I needed the units, but I'd already been through my dad's old college calculus text. Then I got permission to duck out of high school 3 times a week to take 2nd year calculus at a local college. I was lucky they were flexible enough to let me do all this.
I agree regarding semesters and math courses.
However, with respect, your argument would be more effective if you didn't generalize to Americans. A lot of Americans DO value education and the fact that many of them are on slashdot reflects it.
(The extent to which they value schooling is another matter entirely.)
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
A think a more reliable predictor would be having a competent Algebra II teacher. If Algebra II had been required in my high school I would never have graduated. Neither would have a lot of other people. The Algebra I teacher was that bad. It wasn't until I got to college that I finally encountered someone who could teach me Algebra.
Proverbs 21:19
For most people, it would be more useful to teach either statistics or financial math than calculus. We teach calculus because it's next in math or engineering education. But for ANY of the social sciences and several of the sciences statistics is more useful, and for life financial math is more useful.
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
There's no magic content to Algebra II that makes you smarter. If you were smarter to begin with, you're more likely to want to take Algebra II.
Algebra II is the first math class you can take that you don't *have* to take to graduate. Therefore, the choice to take Algebra II demonstrates a desire for accomplishment beyond the minimum. It is hardly surprising that people with this desire go on to achieve things in later life.
If you make Algebra II mandatory, this differentiation will be lost. Algebra II will lose its predictive power of future success, and Algebra III or Precalculus or whatever will become predicive.
Not that I'm against making algebra mandatory for high school students. Personally, I think trigonometry and introductory calculus should be mandatory for high school students. But even if the conclusion is right, the method of arriving at it is wrong.
> Full blown math and science should be required for everyone.
I don't know the details of why quantum mechanics is inconsistent with general relativity. As I use neither in my day-to-day-life, or EVER directly, it bugs me only a little bit, and only normatively--I certainly don't expect everyone to know the answer. I would be happy with a world where it simply bugged everyone only a little bit, because people should love to learn and to understand the universe. But particular learning and knowledge should not be required in any field beyond a certain point, and the question is where that threshold should lie for math.
The more advanced the material we expect someone to have a broad spectrum knowledge of, the more resourced we are committing to generalist education at the expense of many other things.
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
is Algebra II the first class where kids are weened off of using just numbers in math? If memory serves, that little bit of abstraction is the first time that the men are separated from the boys, and I don't doubt that's what indicates the success, not the PR-mandated "II" in the course title.
Don't most people take Algebra II in Junior High? I skipped it entirely myself... What level of maths do most U.S. high schools require? If it's not even Algebra II then I would say that's yet another sign of how pathetic the U.S. education system has become. Personally, I found Calculus to be one of the most beneficial, eye-opening maths classes I had in high school and think every student should be required to complete it. It can be used in so many different scenarios and yet still most people graduate from high school thinking all but basic math is useless!
To be frank, for most occupations Algebra II is simply not necessary, and most will forget it anyhow.
I suggest that Boolean logic, set theory, and basic statistics be required instead. Those are more applicable to the actual work world. As manufacturing drifts overseas and the US specializes in fads, marketing, and finance, "physical" math is less needed, while discrete and statistical math is replacing it as a need.
Table-ized A.I.
They taught me that too. Graveyard shift at the local 7-11 during summer vacation back in '82/'83
Where'd you learn?
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Everyone should watch the school documentary Waiting for Superman:
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100929/REVIEWS/100929981
It's possible to take the same group of kids from the same underprivileged neighborhood, and send some of them to public schools where 50% will fail to graduate, and send some from the same pool to charter schools where *for less money per student* 90% will go on to attend college. It really is all about the schools, teachers, and methods, not the students, neighborhoods, or money.
The biggest culprit is teacher tenure. After a measly 2 years of teaching, public school teachers can get tenure and be almost impossible to fire for the rest of their lives, even if they're actively bad at their jobs. At the university level tenure is a useful tool for retaining teachers with unconventional views, who add to the campus experience; but at the high school level tenure is useless since kids have too many basics to learn for unconventional views to be given time. We should institute merit pay for teachers, and eliminate tenure--good teachers could make twice what average ones make, and bad ones could be fired.
"It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."--Andrew Jackson
The trouble is that 70 percent of people that get degrees get it in worthless disciplines like marketing or management. Management is basically common sense with basic business education thrown in. You only make a good manager if you would have been one without education anyway. Plenty of worthless managers have degrees in management, but have no common sense nor organizational skills. They would be better off getting some kind of hybrid degree between business law and accounting. At least then they could successfully handle something in business.
That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
Is it really that big of a deal? Take the class and be done with it.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
While a strong believer that pi should be "replaced" by tau or similar, I think tau is a lousy choice as it will just get confused with time constants. Capital Pi is good, although I guess it could get confused with a repeated product. Maybe we could introduce "Ip," in the same way we have Mho.
It's even worse here in Canada. They don't offer Algebra II in middle school OR high school. I took it in my freshman year at university.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Not sure what "Algebra II" is, but many slashdotters mention taking it in grade 10 (but 9 for some; 11 for others).
FWIW, in BC (not sure about the rest of Canada), you need a minimum of grade 11 Math to graduate.
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
Not necessarily.. I was always bad at math.. but in 11th grade I had a good teacher. I even placed 4th in a national math contest that year. It doesn't take long to learn.. all you have to do is purge all the bad teaching you got before. :)
I was educated in the classic "K thru 12 then college" system, and it worked out well for me.
But in retrospect, I wish there was a way for people who can't/won't finish through grade 12 to graduate early (at grade 10 or 11) and then move on to service industry jobs or tradesmen certifications without the stigma of being a "dropout". Is this how the UK's O-Level and A-Level works? I like the idea of a 16-year old getting into cooking school or plumbing or landscaping once they've developed an adequate level of literacy and math skills (probably not Algebra II).
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
Many school systems will simply give a very weak course in Algebra II rather than the pre college academic Algebra II classes like we had back in the 1950s. I seriously doubt that most students would be able to complete such a course these days. Even in the colleges many courses have been diluted and turned into baby like courses. If you require most students to actually learn they simply drop out of school. The GED has caused this and must be halted. It is a lot easier to drop out and then take a watered down GED course than to actually get a high school education. And sadly it will cause social and racial chaos if teaching returns to our schools. And to make it worse there is a current concept of punishing teachers if the kids fail or drop out.
How many states are really willing to let the outside world know about the quality of their schools? ZERO
Observational studies like the CEEB report mentioned in the article suffer from the problem of self-selection. If we could conduct a pure experimental study, we'd assign students randomly to a "treatment" group, who then take Algebra II, and a "control" group, who do not. Because the assignments are randomized, any observed differences in performance between the groups can be assigned to taking Algebra II.
In reality, students select themselves into the treatment and control groups. This won't matter if the factor(s) that distinguish these two groups are uncorrelated with the measured outcomes. In this case, though, it's very likely that future success in life may have something to do with things like intelligence and determination, which are also likely to influence the decision to take Algebra II.
Anyone who wants to understand these issues should read Campbell & Stanley's Experimental and Quasi-Experimental Designs for Research. Though the book is nearly fifty years old, it still remains a clear and cogent explanation of inferential problems in most social research. The original is out of print, but an updated version is at Amazon.
By the way, the comments by report's author in TFA show the researchers are well aware of this problem.
only it was the 90's. Back then our store's register didn't display the change so you had to do it yourself. normally that's not too hard, but when you do 2-300 transactions a night after spending the entire day pounding the street looking for a permanent job, it gats hard to stay within the $2.00 limit for till errors.
Sporting goods/automotive for TG&Y Family Center.
Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
I wish you 'Correlation != Causation' nutjobs could put down the sauce and actually consider the issue.
Have you EVEN CONSIDERED that the concepts taught in Algebra II might in fact have a CAUSAL relationship with later success? Look through the core concepts listed below and ask yourself (A) would knowing these concepts be critical for success in pure science and engineering coursework? (B) would knowing these concepts be useful for social sciences? (C) could the mental gymnastics practiced in algebra 2 help develop the critical thinking necessary for harder subjects?
You guys go on and on about how politicians etc. have no science background and then go batshit crazy the moment someone suggests that 'hard' math/science should be part of a core curriculum. As a practicing scientist I use the below core concepts literally every day (matlab ftw), and I certainly wish more people were walking around with a working knowledge of these subjects. Even english & art majors would benefit from knowing these concepts.
Absurdity note: As probability and statistics are part of the algebra 2 core, a person would HAVE TO KNOW ALGEBRA 2 to even understand the 'correlation != causation' arguement.
Per random googling, here is a basic algebra 2 core:
Don't most people take Algebra II in Junior High?
I think Algebra I is what most people take in Junior High. Or pre-algebra.
Your statement is evidence of why Algebra II is such a good indicator. If someone hasn't completed it by 12th grade, they probably aren't the brightest bulb in the lot, and they probably aren't college bound. So forcing them to take it earlier just means that whatever other course they missed will become the leading predictor of success.
When I'm waiting in line behind you at lunchtime, I'd much prefer you count your money on your own time. Walking people step-by-step through basic addition and subtraction on every transaction wastes everyone's time.
We need to engineer some more now!
At least the GED tests are still very easy
Mmmmm...
How about these items which are not discussed for a leading predictor for doing well in school. I am not just talking about Mathematics either:
1) Banks Destroying the currency of a nation so that nobody can find work, and killing the ability for the average family to have a stable environment.
2) No Work means more food Stamps, starting a hopeless spiral of poverty specifically designed to create more poverty.
3) 1/4 to now 1/3 children are underfed or on food stamps, never discussed in the news becasue Republicans and Democrats control the media.
4) Looting and stealing of educational institutions for pennies while the banks and government rip people off to the tune of trillions of dollars? Carefully controlled media driving home that only if we destroy all social programs, magically the 2 trillion a year on 4 wars can get bigger and will save us all.
5) Systematically destroying the countries ability to tax citizens by removing its industrial and manufacturing centers by "American Corporations" which are hardly American and owned or are now offshore in foreign countries. GE is just one example where no taxes are ever paid in the billions.
Still small change when you consider what the republican and democratic parties are doing along with the Federal Reserve.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
I spent my teenage years during the 1980's - this is how the math curriculum was administered in an affluent suburb of Seattle at the time (when Jr. High was prevalent. Grades 7-9):
Jr. High:
7th Grade - Everyone took "7th Grade Math". There weren't different levels of "7th Grade Math", everyone took the same class. We spent all of the class and homework doing endless problems of long division and multiplication. It sucked.
8th Grade - Everyone took "Pre-Algebra". This was our first exposure in school to solving for X
9th Grade - Everyone took "Algebra 1". We had a math book from the 1960's that was awful.
High School:
10th Grade - Everyone took "Geometry". Fun class - I liked it.
11th Grade - Only students interested in a math-related career continued taking math at this point. It was "Algebra 2" and included Trigonometry.
12th Grade - Only students REALLY interested in math-related careers took math their last year of high school. This was called "Math Analysis" and was essentially Pre-Calc.
There actually was a Calculus class at our high school, but there were only about 5 students who could take it, and they were a very select few who had been allowed to skip the 7th Grade math experience to take the "more advanced" Pre-Algebra class. There was only 1 such kid in my 7th Grade class that got to do this.
So now fast forward to today in a rural state famous for potatoes. When my oldest son was in 5th grade, ALL the 5th graders were allowed to take a math test, that if they passed, would give them the opportunity to take "Pre Algebra" as 6th graders (rather than my sad experience of having to wait till 8th grade). My son passed and is now taking "Algebra 1" as a 7th grader. If he stays on track, he'll be in Calculus in 11th grade, and university-level Calculus in 12th grade. Although this is probably about average to lower average for Europe/Asia, it's considered a fairly rigorous schedule for the United States.
While I want to bemoan our country's struggles with math and science education, I also have to acknowledge how far things have progressed in the last 25 years. Whether or not today's students take advantage of the opportunities they have now, at least they HAVE some decent opportunities!
They call me the working man. I guess that's what I am.
All this proves is that students that opt to take and complete algebra II do better. In my high school, everyone who elected to be in algebra II was planning on going to college. Of course such student do better in college! This in no way proves that forcing students that aren't good at math to take algebra II is some how magically going to make them more successful.
This reminds me of the study (from Canada) that said that drivers who voluntarily turned on their headlights during the day were in much fewer accidents, so the government made headlight use during the day mandatory. The seem to have failed to consider that the voluntary headlight users were more safety conscious and it had little to do with increased visibility.
There are many things that people need know to get along in modern life. It's a shame that so few are taught in high school.
Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
Awesome. I don't actually have a boat, but that's a pretty cool use of ancient technology.
Momentum? Ain't that Physics?
The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
Algebra 2.0 is the new, exciting, web-based algebra that uses an intuitive graphical user interface that just really pops. The whole visual experience is enhanced with spirited artwork, stimulating dynamic content, and an innovated challenge-response mechanism to generate accelerated educational growth among students.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
So WTF is Algebra II? It looks just like the regular algebra we did in high school, except it's been dumbed down by giving the answers. If you want to test whether they can do algebra, give them just the questions and let them work out the answer themselves. Who are the dumbfuck teachers who think this is a good idea?
Yes, the usual comments on confusing correlation and causation are relevant, but in the case of the proposed policy change the more applicable phenomenon is this: "Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart's_law .
The second question asks a student to represent (3i - 1) / (-2 - 4i) in the form a + bi. This is obviously impossible (hint: if you know nothing about math, simply try i = - 1/2 for the original formula and all the answers in the graphic). Not to mention that the answer to the 3rd question is also incorrect. Total score is 66% success for questions and 33% for answers. Neither is a pass.
Is this sort of like the study where student who sit at the front of the class did better on average than students sitting at the back of the class? I tried to move to the front of the class, but strangely my grades did not improve. I also loved this line:
...the workforce is lagging in the percentage of younger workers with college degrees, according to the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development.
Is this because kids aren't tanking algebra 2, (sarcasm people, not really asking...) or because we are in ha huge recession, and state educational budgets are being slashed like crazy, reducing funding for public higher education? Here in Washington, tuition for public universities is going to be hiked for something like the third or four year straight. Perhaps there are less kids getting degrees, because nobody can afford it....
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
I'm not counting *my* money, I'm counting out the customer's money, to ensure that he gets the correct change.
And done properly, it takes almost no extra time at all.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Although what we REALLY need a class on is "common sense" how to deal with money. Interest, balancing a 'checkbook'/banking account. Hell I'd settle for 'this is how you count back money.'
That's what Home Economics used to be...
Perhaps revisiting the math education system of the 1940s/1950s would be helpful. Here's what I learned from my grandmother recently. What they got wrong back then was that there was some prejudgement as to whether or not a student was college material. If you were judged a "not" it was difficult to get into the college prep classes. What they got right was that in high school there was four years of math, period. You were either in the college prep math series or the practical/vocational math series. The later included balancing your checkbook, making sure your paycheck was correct (1.5x for overtime, 2x for sundays, etc), converting between units and using fractions in cooking recipe and lumber yard type applications, etc.
When I was in high school only one year of math was required - pitiful. Perhaps we need to bring back the practical/vocation type of math classes (modernized of course) and require three or four years of math?
I used to do retail. I tried your way.
I don't know why it's easier and more accurate for me to count from $0 to $13.63 than from $26.37 to $40. It may be because it works left to right: I put a ten in my hand, and the left digit is taken care of. I count out three ones, and that's taken care of. I know how quarters add up very easily: 25, 50... a dime is 60... three more pennies, done.
It's a failure of my brain, not of math, but at least in my experience it was easier and therefore more accurate. Yes, I'm depending on the computer to do math, but it's not going to make an arithmetic mistake. If it gives the wrong output it's because I gave the wrong input, and yes, I'd be well aware if I put in $100 when I meant $10.
It would be particularly painful if the customer handed me $40.12 so that their change would be an even $13.75. Having to keep $40.12 in my mind as the target through the operation would be a pain in the ass. I'd have to start at the beginning: "$26.37... plus a quarter is 52, no, 62... 87, another quarter makes $26.12, no wait, $27.12... hell, mister, just give me it all back. I'm giving you some pennies now and some more pennies at the end and you can hand 'em back to me when we're all done."
Maybe if I practiced it, I'd be just as good at it either way. But I doubt it's going to be any better. Yes, it would serve me well if the computer went down, and I'd get a lot of practice at my arithmetic skills. Yay.
Should any of you younger ./ers have any hope of procreating. Learn to cook. It's like edible science.
Agreed - you should be able to build yourself breakfast, lunch and dinner with a minimum of prepared foods. It's not hard, kids - and it'll save you cash, impress the ladies (and this is *definitely* where making the effort counts!), and keep you healthier than the folks who are living off day-old pizza and ramen noodles.
Daily breakfast builds are good. It's an iterative procedure, but you can't just cook the changes each day, except in trivial cases. You generally have to cook the whole meal if you want to procreate. Most otherwise compatible partners might not be able to integrate simple changes -- say, if you substituted pepper for salt; a plate of pepper alone for breakfast (the simple change) can't be integrated into yesterday's meal. At least that's the way for me, my fridge doesn't understand Subversion.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Over the years that I have been in school there have been a ton of things that we learned that couldn't be determined by a simple test. No amount of short essays will tell you how good a student is at structuring a long research paper or defended argument. No amount of short word problems will show you if a student is capable of applying what he learned the way a math or science design project will.
I've taken qualifying exams and the such, and they aren't any better to teach against than crappy exams. They are harder, because there is a lot more information you have to cram into your head and spit back out with no spare time to think, but it still doesn't represent an accurate assessment of how well you really understand and are able to apply the subject.
I've had teachers that taught against the test, and their classes were worthless. No improvements to the test will make them teach any better, but as long a test grades are what schools are judged on, teachers like that will be safe in their jobs.
I teach physics at a community college in California, a state in which Algebra I has been a high school graduation requirement since 2003. Virtually all of my students are high school graduates, and probably 80% of them graduated later than 2003. But guess what? Many of my students can't do algebra. Actually, some of them have passed a year of calculus at the college where I teach -- and nevertheless are surprised when I point out to them that sqrt(a+b) cannot be simplified to sqrt(a)+sqrt(b).
The problem is that we have an irresistible force encountering an immovable object. Students and teachers are told that the students must learn X or else the teachers will lose their jobs, and the students will never be able to get jobs, except maybe ones where you make minimum wage with no benefits for licking bird crap off of park benches. That creates an irresistible incentive to pretend that the students have learned X. We can let X equal a fluent reading knowledge of ancient Hebrew, and I guarantee you that schools and their students will start pretending that their students can do that.
Find free books.
Or perhaps they're lying to attract more people to the field, in order to keep up unemployment there and depress wages?
I have noticed that when someone talks of "workforce shortages", that's almost always the case.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
I agree with your pick of topics, and would like to add one
Consider this: people vote about once every four years (or is it two? And how about non-voters? But I digress...).
People engage in market transactions about once per day (working five days a week, buying groceries saturday and toys/clothes/tickets/... sundays).
Much policy is economic policy, in that it has an intended economic consequence (cheaper healthcare) or cost (military-industrial complex).
How come kids are taught civics and not economics? You can teach people that in the US two-party system, any non-Dem, non-Rep vote is wasted in something like five minutes. Teaching people the consequences of policies (so they can match them against intentions, both their own and those stated in campaign promises) takes a little longer. Also, economics goes a long way to explain the lobbying, corruption and two-party system in the US, once you understand how the incentives of large numbers of individuals interact.
And hey, I bet school kids would hate math a tiny little bit less if they saw how it applies to part of their world ("why do ${products young people want} cost what they cost?").
That's it! We'll make career plans a high school requirement!
I think that's one of the least stupid education reform ideas I've heard in a long time.
The problem with western-world school systems (I know because I've experienced one and they're all equal and actually I went to a private school) is that they're compulsory.
One, that drains the motivation out of people. Many things which are fun or acceptable are a pain if they're forced (consider working and having sex). The best you can get out of people if you force their hand is begrudging compliance. That might work for factory labor, but not for intellectual development. At best you'll produce people who know a bundle of facts.
Secondly, it preempts the time of young people. Time which should be spent setting and pursuing your own goals. I think it has been said a million times in a thousand ways, but here's my take---to achieve your goals, you must first set them. Schools are an institution which obstructs the process of setting goals for oneself, working towards them and reaching them. I bet you'd have more successful people if they were put into a habit, from their youth, of setting goals for themselves and working to reach them.
You may worry about educational needs being met if kids are left to their own devices. Consider this: how come little kids ask a bajillion questions and are incredibly curious right up until the point when they're put into school?
But regarding my parent's point: if people only enter high school with a career plan, you'll know that people have a goal and that high school is (at least perceived to be) on the path towards that goal. That will probably mean you'll have more motivated students---why would you be motivated to spend time doing something which doesn't give you anything you want?
That way they won't confuse correlation with causation.
It was part of my grade 10 and grade 11 curriculum. What happened to schooling since I attended 55 years ago?
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
For the high-school student not going into a STEM major, probability and statistics plus a course in financial literacy would be far more useful in terms of real-world applicability than an algebra II course.
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
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