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New Houses Killing Wi-Fi

Barence writes "Poor Wi-Fi or mobile reception is one of the banes of modern living — and modern building techniques could be making things worse. PC Pro has photos of a new-build being covered from floorboards to rafters in a tin-foil like material. The "highly reflective" material could have unpredictable results for radio signals, potentially bouncing mobile signals away from the house or preventing Wi-Fi signals from reaching the garden. And the new householder is likely to be none the wiser."

358 comments

  1. I personally love it by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Since moving into my new home, I've noticed a significant reduction in secret CIA messages being injected into my brainwaves. Goodbye ugly tinfoil hat!

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:I personally love it by Tsingi · · Score: 1

      Since moving into my new home, I've noticed a significant reduction in secret CIA messages being injected into my brainwaves. Goodbye ugly tinfoil hat!

      That was close to my first thought on reading the topic for this story. It will interfere with government surveillance.

      Look for government agencies investing in counter tinfoil surveillance technology.

      It's win-win, they get to hear you talk in your sleep, and we get better wi-fi.

    2. Re:I personally love it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats exactly what they want you to think. What do you think old satellites operate in the "C" Band...?

    3. Re:I personally love it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We must not allow a tinfoil gap!

    4. Re:I personally love it by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Look for government agencies investing in counter tinfoil surveillance technology.

      Google will probably be in on it too. But only unofficially, and by mistake - or so we are told. :-/

    5. Re:I personally love it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You all laughed. I laughed. Then I found this: Department of the Army - Bioeffects of Selected Nonlethal Weapons
      Turn to page 8: "Incapacitating Effect: Microwave Hearing"

      It's actually quite easy. You cause vibrations in the brain, whose pressure waves stimulate the hearing center, just like normal air pressure waves do.

      So while the document could still be bullshit, this one looks so plausible, that I'd love to see the Mythbusters test it.

    6. Re:I personally love it by digitalchinky · · Score: 1

      Old satellites? Just about every single bird in the Clarke Belt is still using C band - even the brand new ones.

    7. Re:I personally love it by NiteMair · · Score: 2

      This is SPECTACULAR!

      I want this stuff installed on my house.

      1) My wifi signals don't need to leave my house.
      2) My neighbors' wifi signals don't need to enter my house.
      3) I *hate* cell phones, and now when people come over, their calls will drop, their bars will drop, and they'll turn the damn things off finally.
      4) I have satellite TV.
      5) I need better insulation.

    8. Re:I personally love it by chill · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I can see them pitching that one.

      "See, we want to microwave somebody's brain. Maybe someone from legal..."

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    9. Re:I personally love it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was close to my first thought on reading the topic for this story. It will interfere with government surveillance.

      Really? If that was your first thought, you may want to talk to a mental health professional. Unfortunately, it is likely that the reason why this was your first thought is the same reason why you won't. Just my 2 cents.

    10. Re:I personally love it by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      Since moving into my new home, I've noticed a significant reduction in secret CIA messages being injected into my brainwaves. Goodbye ugly tinfoil hat!

      Sometimes there are reasons to be paranoid. And just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get you.

      Sleep well.

    11. Re:I personally love it by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Um, no, you won't get better wifi.

      What you will get is a warm, tingly feeling inside, when they turn up the power of the microwave scanner parked outside your house.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    12. Re:I personally love it by peragrin · · Score: 1

      #3, works both ways my cell is my only phone. then again I could use one the picocells inside my house, which are automatically limited to certian phones.

      therefore my phone will work just fin but everyone else would lose theirs.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    13. Re:I personally love it by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      In soviet russia, the tinfoil spies on you !

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    14. Re:I personally love it by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      Since moving into my new home, I've noticed a significant reduction in secret CIA messages being injected into my brainwaves. Goodbye ugly tinfoil hat!

      I wouldn't get too cocky about this...nor would I throw away a perfectly good tin foil hat either.

      You just have to wait for them to process the "Change of Address" forms before they can know where to start re-transmission of the CIA brainwave secret messages.

      Not to make you paranoid or anything, but you might wanna give it a couple weeks more before breathing a sigh of relief.

      :)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    15. Re:I personally love it by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      #3: ok, then how do you use a phone at all when you're at home? Or do you think it's a great idea to pay extra for a landline, when you already have a perfectly functional cellphone? Of course, you have satellite TV as you noted, so maybe you're one of those people that actually likes to pay a lot of money for extra and unnecessary services. Why anyone would pay for TV when you can get everything online or with rabbit ears for free, or a measly $8/month on Netflix, is beyond me.

    16. Re:I personally love it by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Rabbit ears won't work in the tinfoil house either.

    17. Re:I personally love it by daenris · · Score: 1

      Well... considering that you can't get every show (or even network) free online, with rabbit ears, or on Netflix, I'm not sure why you think this is weird.

    18. Re:I personally love it by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Actually, there's an easy way around that. You can buy a HDTV OTA rooftop antenna for about $100 now. It's about the size of a digital satellite antenna, and usually bolts to the side of the roof. As a bonus, you'll get much better HD reception than with rabbit ears, especially if you're not very close to a metro area.

    19. Re:I personally love it by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Why would I care about getting every show or network? How much time do you spend sitting in front of the TV anyway, turning into a zombie? If you spend more than 1-2 hours a day watching TV on average, there's something seriously wrong with you.

    20. Re:I personally love it by Tsingi · · Score: 1

      That was close to my first thought on reading the topic for this story. It will interfere with government surveillance.

      Really? If that was your first thought, you may want to talk to a mental health professional. Unfortunately, it is likely that the reason why this was your first thought is the same reason why you won't. Just my 2 cents.

      You may be correct, my second thought was "We must not allow a tinfoil gap!"

      But I see that has been covered. (You probably didn't appreciate the humour there either)

    21. Re:I personally love it by Kaenneth · · Score: 1

      Protip: Give your brother in law the beer AFTER the installation, not before.

    22. Re:I personally love it by froggymana · · Score: 1

      What about finding a way to use the tinfoil in the house as the antenna for the HDTV?

      --
      "To prevent this day from getting any worse, I'll just read ERROR as GOOD THING" 1GJU8xLuDKDxEs4KLf8fAGyptoDsqvEsBT
    23. Re:I personally love it by daenris · · Score: 1

      I wasn't suggesting that any one person would need every show. However, since not every show is available, it means there are shows that some people will want to watch which are not available legally online.

    24. Re:I personally love it by Virtucon · · Score: 1

      You still need it because tinfoil is thinner these days so you have to do it like belts and suspenders.. The house and the hat, one is not enough!

      --
      Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    25. Re:I personally love it by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      The U.S government has the "authority" (really just permission they give to themselves) to do chemical and biological weapons testing on it's own population. The only restriction is that local authorities must be notified first. E.g the Tuskegee project.

    26. Re:I personally love it by unitron · · Score: 1

      If you really want to use this stuff as a Faraday cage, it'll all need to be bonded to the service entrance ground.

      Otherwise, maybe it'll block some signals, or maybe it'll act as a re-radiator.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    27. Re:I personally love it by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      You can get everything *you* want "online or with rabbit ears for free" (I don't know if you mean legally).. but I can't. Even if you leave a few year gap (since they definitely don't have the vast majority of currently airing seasons), nowhere near every show is on netflix (even including DVDs).. and I say that as a huge netflix fan.

      Plus things like news, and some people (not me) like sports.. but ESPN & Comcast Sports Net (used to be Fox Sports Net) are useful to me for poker shows.

    28. Re:I personally love it by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Sports are a waste of time to watch on TV. But news? Every major network shows news. If you live in a metro area, there should be tons of free choices OTA. There's also tons of free streaming news online. For CNN, for instance, just go to www.cnn.com/video, and you can watch CNN right on your computer without having to pay $100+ per month for cable or satellite. I'm sure the same goes for all the other networks.

      Lots of currently-airing shows are also available online right from their networks, and that number will probably increase in coming years. For those that aren't, if they're any good, you can get them on BitTorrent. I haven't heard of anyone at all getting sued for downloading TV shows yet.

    29. Re:I personally love it by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Even if they're not getting sued, it is still illegal.

    30. Re:I personally love it by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      So what? If a law is not enforced, then effectively that thing is not illegal.

      For instance, there are old laws in some places, such as making it illegal to have sex with the lights on, or to have oral sex, or for a woman to drive a car without her husband walking in front waving a red flag, etc. None of these laws are enforced any more, so effectively, those things are not illegal. Same goes for downloading TV shows on BT. If there's no possibility of getting in trouble for it, then it's not illegal, regardless of what some person on Slashdot says.

      Moreover, you need to look at the impact of what you're doing. If you watch a TV show legally, you're not paying a dime for it. The network gets their money for it from advertising. If you watch it on BT, the ads have been taken out, but really, how likely were you to buy something from one of those ads anyway? The main thing that gets hurt is the ratings: if you're a Nielsen family, watching a show on BT instead of live TV will cause its ratings to fall. But if you're not a Nielsen family like 99.99999% of us, then the ratings will not be affected. In fact, since BT statistics are pretty easy to get, you're probably helping the people making the program more by watching it on BT than by watching it legally.

      (Aside: even if you have cable/satellite, you're not paying a dime to watch any shows there. You're only paying for access to those networks, which goes into the pockets of the cable/satellite operators, and doesn't help the people making the show one bit. They survive entirely on ads. With the internet, the cable and satellite operators are unnecessary middlemen, and it's in our interest to do whatever we can to starve them of money and put them out of business, so that all programming goes online. This is better for both the people, and the people who produce the programming, as most people would rather just watch something on Hulu, even if it has a few ads, rather than muck around with BT, so the faster the networks are pushed into this, the better.)

    31. Re:I personally love it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's just what the CIA wants you to think.

    32. Re:I personally love it by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So because you don't like landlines, you think it a bad line for anyone else? Wow, what a pompous prick. Some of us can't get DSL without a phone line (well, I could, but it actually costs more than with a phone line). And no worry about minutes. Oh, and I have satellite TV. But I don't pay for it (and it's legal). Just because you are too stupid to figure out things like that and so rich that you pay for all the minutes of talking to people on your cell all the time rather than using an unlimited land-line doesn't make you right.

    33. Re:I personally love it by rhalstead · · Score: 1

      This is really not new, although it may have taken some types a decade or two to notice the aluminum foil vapor barrier on the insulation. What would most of us do if we could not receiver Wi Fi outside the house...assuming we'd want to? We'd complain to who ever sold the equipment to us. They would tell us to add antennas in the windows. I can't receive it in my shop from the house and it's well within range. Of course the inside of my shop is lined with bonded metal and so far Wi Fi has been much too slow for backups (I do a lot of AVI work and have huge files) so even with CAT5 or 6 some backups can take hours. OTOH I've had the CAT6 in for quite a while so Wi Fi has quite a ways to go before becoming attractive and backing up laptops indoors is no problem..

  2. Non-issue really by gad_zuki! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Insulation isn't usually put on interrior walls and I have no need to broadcast my wifi outside of my house. Those that do can position their WAP near a window.

    I'm also certain this is not an a recent issue. Almost all the insulation I've seen, apart from spray insulation, has some kind of foil-like backing.

    Maybe complainers should spend 2 minutes trying a different wifi channel instead of blaming their home.

    1. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of the insulation I've used has had a paper backing, similar to a paper bag. Not that I've used a lot, but I've helped out family on these things from time to time. This is less of an insulation and more of a house wrap (like Tyvek). My last house didn't have this, or any wrap, but I still had terrible cell signal inside the house, but 4-bars of 3G in the front yard.

    2. Re:Non-issue really by Whalou · · Score: 1

      You might lose your cell phone signal once inside the house which would be problematic.

      --
      English is not this .sig mother tongue...
    3. Re:Non-issue really by Tx · · Score: 1

      Yes, in fact this would actually be a good thing if it cuts down on emissions into and out of the house. We have people complaining about emissions from powerline ethernet (been a bit of fuss about that here in the UK recently) interfering with DAB and FM radio reception, and of course we have video senders and baby monitors jamming the 2.4GHz band and making it hard to find a usable wifi channel. Personally I'd be happy to live in a faraday cage.

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    4. Re:Non-issue really by capnkr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A networking company I've done contract work for has a small hotel client constructed with steel framing instead of wood. Only 2 floors, 8 rooms per side/floor, front and back, but WiFi is a nightmare. There are *5* AP's in the building; one central, 2 each in the attic space either side of the central router, & one AP even has to have a yagi on it to reach into the bottom, corner room with signal strength sufficient to keep hotel guests from complaining. After working there 3 times in the past 2 years resolving issues, I think that steel construction is more of a concern than a radiant barrier layer on the insulation of an exterior wall...

      --
      "...there are some things that can beat smartness and foresight. Awkwardness and stupidity can." ~ Mark Twain
    5. Re:Non-issue really by gatkinso · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Most interior walls are insulated just not with the wrap.

      If this stuff is RF reflective you can get all kinds of weird multipath issues, signal bouncing round.

      However one good thing is that it would help keep your signal IN your house, which is great for security.

      Double edged sword.

      Who browses the web in their garden? I go out there to unplug!

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    6. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I was just about to write the same thing. We moved from a 1920's colonial to a 1980's modern colonial which has foil backed foam on the exterior walls in addition to the typical insulation. Adding outlets is a bit of a pain, so is finding studs, though no where near as bad as slat and mortar. Anyway I'll take the $200/mo utility savings over having to install a couple of extra access points.

    7. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yea, you might. The article has no evidence, conducted no tests, and received no information from the manufacturer or really anyone else. They saw something that looked like tinfoil on an unfinished house, and then wrote a completely speculative article claiming that it will affect wireless waves. My parents house is covered in a material that looks exactly the same (no idea if it actually is the same). I can sit by the pool 20 yards from the house and easily get a strong signal to the wireless router in the kitchen. Maybe this new stuff is different and maybe it causes a problem, but it's flat out irresponsible to write an article claiming that it's a problem without a shred of evidence.

    8. Re:Non-issue really by BKX · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I wouldn't say it's a non-issue, but it's certainly not a new issue. A lot of houses use insulation or soundboard (which is metal coated, like in the picture in TFA) in bedrooms, to deaden sounds (who wants their kids to hear sex noises?); even older houses have it. In fact, my brother and I both put insulating soundboard in our master bedrooms for noise reasons, and because the stuff was on sale for $2/sheet at our local Habitat for Humanity Re-Store. As these materials become more common, we'll be seeing them and their problems in more and more new houses and in more and more retrofits and remodels.

      And another annoyance, in many older homes, such as my father's and my old college dorm building, is the use of "Stucco of Death". That stuff is aw[esome|full]. It will cause severe roadrash when you're drunk and fall into it, much to your detriment and friends' laughter. And the chicken wire that is used as a backing for the stucco is a very good Faraday cage. It's nearly impossible to get signal for any cell phone in my dad's house even though you get full bars outside and at open windows/doors, and no one can get his wifi signal outside, even though he has four APs throughout his house.

    9. Re:Non-issue really by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Well, I mostly agree but having a thin sheet of metal over most of your outside walls might very well have negative consequences for reception inside as well. Signals bounce you know and it will create pockets were the interference is destructive. So you might experience strange dead zones and such, but these can probably be mostly solved by moving the laptop three feet to the left.

      You make sure these house wraps are grounded and thus prevent them from becoming a passive radiator, but that will have other consequences.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    10. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, you might. The article has no evidence, conducted no tests, and received no information from the manufacturer or really anyone else.

      It's actually worse than that. Not only did they NOT do any of those things, but they can't even convince themselves of their theory:

      If owners of these brand-spanking new houses move in and discover they can’t get a reliable Wi-Fi signal in the garden, or that they can’t get a reliable 3G signal on their smartphone, that foil-like coating might well be the culprit. Conversely, it might even improve Wi-Fi signals internally by mirroring the signal.

      So to sum it up, the insulation might make things worse, or it might make it better. Wow, such insight!

    11. Re:Non-issue really by isopropanol · · Score: 2

      We have people complaining about emissions from powerline ethernet (been a bit of fuss about that here in the UK recently)

      Must be nice to have the complaints based on real concerns... Here (Vancouver Island) we had a cellphone tower project cancelled because the PTA didn't want "radiation" within a half kilometer of an elementary school... but the open tank sewage plant is OK.

    12. Re:Non-issue really by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      i just thought of something, when we moved into our current house, we put in a wooden floor (on the second floor, it's a drive-in house) and under that floor is insulation which has a foil layer. That might explain the dismal wifi reception just a few meters up

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    13. Re:Non-issue really by tripleevenfall · · Score: 3, Insightful

      More over, this article contains no fact or anything close to it about whether this material affects transmission at all. It was simply a blogger walking past a house being built and saying "hmm", then googling. The material is said to have "reflectivity", but of what? It never says it's constructed of metal or a problem material, the blogger just describes it as "foil-like". What if it means heat reflectivity? What effect exactly has been studied in materials that appear to the eye to be "foil like"? This is just poppycock on the level of "Well I don't see how the towers could have fell down... gubment musta put nukes in the basement!"

    14. Re:Non-issue really by The+Grim+Reefer2 · · Score: 1

      Most of the insulation I've used has had a paper backing, similar to a paper bag. Not that I've used a lot, but I've helped out family on these things from time to time. This is less of an insulation and more of a house wrap (like Tyvek). My last house didn't have this, or any wrap, but I still had terrible cell signal inside the house, but 4-bars of 3G in the front yard.

      This is the foam board type insulation that is nailed to the studs prior the siding/brick being attached to the outside wall. I've seen insulation rolls with Mylar backing, but it's not very common.

    15. Re:Non-issue really by IronicToo · · Score: 2

      Mod parent up, worthless article by a clueless author. Has anyone ever tried blocking WiFi with aluminum foil? It doesn't work, one of my electrical engineering professors tried it to use it to isolate two antennas from each other, aluminum foil had no effect. Leaves on the other hand (due to high water content) stop it dead. A better article would have talked about the hidden dangers of planting trees around the house. Not sure how cell would behave (very different frequency).

    16. Re:Non-issue really by RingDev · · Score: 3, Interesting

      From my time working in the cell phone industry, I'd say "fooie!" to this being a problem at all. Atleast with cell towers, metal objects created almost no interfierance. Water was the devil. A huge chunk of metal in from of an antena had only a tiny impact, but fill that chunk of metal with water, say like a water tower, and it's like a giant black hole for radio signals. We also had issues with small lakes bouncing signals like crazy. You could be driving around a lake, have a tower 100 feet away from you, and another 12 miles away across the lake, and we'd have to put them on no-handoff lists, because a little bit of waves in the water can give the CC the impression that you are getting a better signal from across the lake.

      A think layer of tin on the back of your insulation, that has been being used for decades, isn't going to cause any issue that hasn't already been dealt with.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    17. Re:Non-issue really by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      So do they plan on going after that unlicensed fusion reactor that bathes their children in radiation all day?

    18. Re:Non-issue really by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      How is the PTA full of the most stupid, uneducated people on the planet?

    19. Re:Non-issue really by Xest · · Score: 1

      Yes it can be a real pain in the arse.

      My parents never had wifi issues at their house but since they had an extension to extend their kitchen into a large kitchen/living area they can no longer connect to the Wifi router in another room. That room is really a wifi deadzone now, it's not really the end of the world, but it's not really ideal either and is somewhat inconvenient- the whole idea of wifi being that you can roam, and so if you have to go back to another part of the house to use it then, well, that's somewhat of a problem.

      For most people it's no big deal, but I would suggest anyone wanting an extension built where this may be a problem does actually consider it at least, because it's not something simple or cheap to change afterwards and you may find yourself back to wired or with an ugly wireless extender sat around the entraince to the new room.

    20. Re:Non-issue really by agentgonzo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I just heard this lunchtime that when they installed the new radar equipment on the top of Portsdown hill (Just outside Portsmouth - if you live close, the big blue buildings with the radar on Portsdown hill) they attached the motors only and had it turning for 2-3 weeks before any radar emitters were turned on. They got umpteen complaints from local residents during that period that the 'new radars' were interfering with their TV and causing 'bad reception'. All these phone numbers got logged as time-wasters for subsequent public complaints!

    21. Re:Non-issue really by BKX · · Score: 1

      I give the thin tin sheeting probably not being a problem, since I have no issues with my soundboard (my first paragraph was most disagreeing with OP about the use of insulation on interior wall.) The chicken wire from stucco thing, I can assure you, is 100% true. Now, it's possible that water is the actual cause and the chicken wire a coincidence since we're in Michigan and there are streams in everyone's back yard and pools, ponds, and lakes are everywhere, but it seems like a bit too much coincidence that phones work near the windows and doors, but not the walls and interior spaces.

    22. Re:Non-issue really by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      Yup. This will actually improve in-house wifi - Your neighbors won't cause as much interference to your network.

      If you need outdoor wifi - set up an access point outside.

      It will be detrimental to cell phone reception indoors however - but there are technical solutions to that. The amount of money you save on energy by having reflective barriers will make up for the cost of a Wilson amplifier setup - http://www.wilsonelectronics.com/ProductListing.aspx?Category=9 . Interestingly enough, the shielding of the home will be beneficial here - Such amp systems break if there is insufficient isolation between the outdoor antenna and the indoor one.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    23. Re:Non-issue really by nedlohs · · Score: 2

      Where said blogger is an editor at a magazine that just did a cover feature on the same style of meterial being used on some internal rooms and potentially causing wifi problems. Which one would hope would actually mean they have a little bit of short term knowledge in order to base their still flimsy guesses on. Of course that article might have been all guesswork as well, it's not a magazine I read to know.

      And he doesn't just describe it as "foil-like" he also provides the product spec sheet that states that is has an aluminium layer which, while you might disagree, the rest of will continue to believe is a metal.

    24. Re:Non-issue really by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a perfect question for the MythBusters.

      Calling Mr. Savage. Will Adam Savage please report to th... aw, drat, I've got no bars.

      --

      The Digital Sorceress
    25. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So why did building seven fall down? You somehow think its more plausible that towers that large collapse at nearly free fall speed from jet fuel rather than explosives? You think the sound waves recorded from the event having the same pattern as that of a controlled demolition means nothing?

    26. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the smart people don't join the "rah, rah, look at me - let's give me an award" society?

    27. Re:Non-issue really by Plekto · · Score: 1

      Oh, wait... *potentially*.

      Wake me when there's a real problem. Has he actually tried it or is he just blowing smoke out of his backside?

    28. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most interior walls are insulated just not with the wrap.

      Most interior walls are not insulated for a majority of the earth's humans. If you are lucky, you may have some sound dampening material in your walls, but calling that insulation is a stretch.

    29. Re:Non-issue really by tripleevenfall · · Score: 1

      Having run out of interesting, actual myths to test, they're too busy trying to see if a rolling stone gathers moss or if you can teach an old dog a new trick.

    30. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The chicken wire is unlikely to be an effective Faraday cage at all radio frequencies though. For example, if it blocks 2.4 GHz wi-fi, did you try 5 GHz? Also, cell phones are on very different frequencies. How about a cordless phone? You can still find some older ones on 800 MHz (getting harder to find them). Do you know if that works?

    31. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously your home doesn't have enough tin foil yet.

    32. Re:Non-issue really by BrokenHalo · · Score: 2

      I suspect these materials might not present much of a challenge. I have spent the last 10 years working in cheese factories constructed with steel/foam sandwich panels. Getting any kind of radio signal working in these buildings can be a real problem, usually best solved by good ol' ethernet. I managed to get wifi and mobile signals working at my last workplace with a combination of various repeaters, occasionally with pringles-can antennas, but my new workplace has defeated me, at least for now.

      In practice, I can just about live without wifi at work, but it would be nice to get a robust mobile phone signal in there.

    33. Re:Non-issue really by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Who browses the web in their garden?

      That would be me. Garden lounger, 13" laptop, jar of lemonade with just enough alcohol to keep the bugs away...

    34. Re:Non-issue really by RoverDaddy · · Score: 1

      To be fair, that reactor is 150 million km away. Still, prolonged exposure to its radiation is proven to cause cancer. Shut 'er down now!

      --
      RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
    35. Re:Non-issue really by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Specifically, interior walls aren't insulated anywhere that the airspace is connected. If you have an air vent in one room, and an air intake in another, I promise those rooms aren't insulated from each other, that would be stupid.

      The only 'interior' walls that are insulated are between two 'different' places, like the wall between the house and a garage, or the wall between two condos. Those are really 'exterior' walls that happen to be inside.

      And any walls that started out as exterior but are now inside have insulation in them by accident, obviously.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    36. Re:Non-issue really by That's+What+She+Said · · Score: 2

      Sorry for my attitude, but are you really telling us that you used a Yagi antenna in an indoor environment? That would be kind of insane...

      Wi-Fi *is* a nightmare, period. My business provides mobility solutions for the SMB market and we often design wireless networks in industrial environments. The choice of antennas and the power and channel settings on the APs shall be carefully tuned, as to avoid interference from other RF sources, neighboring networks and the reflectivity of the walls and ceilings. It's not easy at all...

      That's one of my gripes with Wi-Fi popularization. For example, lots of people use Wi-Fi in small apartments, when Ethernet cabling would do just fine, just because they want to choose to access the web on their couches, kitchen or desk. Caveat: the distance between the kitchen and the couch is often much less than 10 feet.

      So, their network is accessible from two stories up or down in the building, because the transmitter power can't be reduced and the AP is transmitting at 20dBm (100mW). At this power level, the attenuation from the walls won't block the signal. In fact, you can get signal through two or three brick walls at this level.

      So, if you live in a building in a big city, there's no channel you can use without problems, as the only non-overlapping channels in the 2.4GHz band are 1, 6 and 11. If you can use 802.11a (or 802.11n in the 5.2GHz band), there are more channels to choose from, but most (cheap) equipment and wireless NICs only use the 2.4GHz band!

      So, the problem with Wi-Fi is much bigger than "tinfoil-like insulation that may block signals" or other construction materials. It's a technology that isn't simple enough to troubleshoot for the average user. Even most IT personnel don't know enough about RF to set up and troubleshoot a wireless network!

    37. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where I live, many houses are covered with stucco, basically a thin layer of concrete applied over expanded steel mesh. Pretty much the same effect. It's a headache for the vendor who provides municipal wifi and sometimes requires external antennas.

    38. Re:Non-issue really by stephathome · · Score: 1

      I work at home. Taking the laptop outside to work is a nice way to spend a sunny day when I still need to get things done. Much better than staring out the window.

    39. Re:Non-issue really by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Well to be fair the manufacturer's datasheet does say it is aluminium foil. I don't know why that wasn't in TFA and it doesn't prove anything, but aluminium foil definitely does block RF. For that reason it has replaced tin as the material of choice for RFID-proof wallets and tinfoil hats.

      Unfortunately it is almost impossible to compare a building with and without this stuff because it has to be installed before the walls are finished. I suppose you could take readings before installation, after installation and when the house is finished to compare signal levels. I'm sure that if you made a box out of that insulation and put your phone in it the signal would drop significantly, but a house as many holes in it for windows and the like. Then again I heard that some transparent window insulation can block RF, and eventually we should get transparent aluminium windows at which point your home will be a fortress impenetrable to puny radio waves.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    40. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      small hotel client constructed with steel framing instead of wood. Only 2 floors, 8 rooms per side/floor, front and back, but WiFi is a nightmare.

      The situation you describe is caused by the relationship between WiFi frequencies and the spacing of the ungrounded metal members of the building. Ground all the studs, if possible, and use a really serious spectrum analyzer and measure from multiple areas to optimize AP placement.

      Sometimes getting the APs closer to the walls helps a lot. Sometimes the metal framing is nearly all electrically continuous, and you can ground everything properly with just a few straps. Sometimes grounding the frame makes the problem worse in the short run because it makes the AP sweet spots change and you have to move them.

      And foil wrapped buildings have been around since the 1960s, incidentally. There are millions of them. But steel "fake two by fours" weren't very popular before the 90s.

    41. Re:Non-issue really by number11 · · Score: 1

      The chicken wire is unlikely to be an effective Faraday cage at all radio frequencies though.

      Around here, the "chicken wire" is usually expanded steel mesh, with ~5mm holes. Not that much looser than the shield in the window of a microwave, so I'll wager it blocks pretty well at 2.4GHz and below.

    42. Re:Non-issue really by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      I LOVE nutcases.
      You sir I am sure will provide me with many wonderful laughs.
      Please never give up posting your wonderful anonymous nutbag comments.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    43. Re:Non-issue really by jdgeorge · · Score: 1

      The PTA's members are fairly representative of the people whose children attend the school. You should expect the PTA members to be just as stupid and uneducated as the parents of all the students.

      Therefore, you could reasonably expect the IQ of the average parent in the PTA to be about 100. Just like the rest of the world.

    44. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who has lived in both a 1950's steel construction house, as well as a modern house with wood framing and "scary foil covered insulation" I concur. TFA is full of shit.

    45. Re:Non-issue really by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      They'll never run out. Their fans just invent new myths.

    46. Re:Non-issue really by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

      That's one of my gripes with Wi-Fi popularization. For example, lots of people use Wi-Fi in small apartments, when Ethernet cabling would do just fine, just because they want to choose to access the web on their couches, kitchen or desk. Caveat: the distance between the kitchen and the couch is often much less than 10 feet.

      How is one supposed to run Ethernet throughout their apartment and then plug in their iPhone or Android?

    47. Re:Non-issue really by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Most users don't even realise that n can operate in two bands. One of the strengths of the .11 technologies is that any idiot can set them up. The problem is that is just what happens.

    48. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did they stucco the roof of your dad's house or something? Because otherwise it's not even close to a Faraday cage and I doubt it would block much of anything at all.

      I lived in a full stucco house for years and never had a problem with cell or wifi reception, inside or out.

    49. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up, worthless article by a clueless author. Has anyone ever tried blocking WiFi with aluminum foil? It doesn't work, one of my electrical engineering professors tried it to use it to isolate two antennas from each other, aluminum foil had no effect. Leaves on the other hand (due to high water content) stop it dead. A better article would have talked about the hidden dangers of planting trees around the house. Not sure how cell would behave (very different frequency).

      Be careful who you call clueless. WiFi will not go through aluminum foil. It will however reflect the entire signal, so if you want to shield an antenna, the foil shielding needs to be complete like a Faraday cage. Things like leaves absorb signal, so there isn't as much reflection.

    50. Re:Non-issue really by SEWilco · · Score: 1

      You might lose your cell phone signal once inside the house which would be problematic.

      Especially if you've also gotten windows covered with infrared-blocking metallic coating.

    51. Re:Non-issue really by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Who browses the web in their garden? I go out there to unplug!

      Me. I telecommute quite a bit, and if it's a pretty day, I'd just as soon park my laptop on the back porch while I work.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    52. Re:Non-issue really by operagost · · Score: 2

      My house is over 200 years old with an addition that was erected during its renovation in 1988. The walls of the original section are nearly two feet of high-iron-content field stone. The inside of that section is insulated with the typical high-end foil-faced foam board from the late 80s. The addition is sheathed with foil-faced foam board, and I've installed a radiant barrier (aluminum coated kevlar) in the attic. I get four or five bars on my cell phone. That being said, the cell tower is only about a mile away so that might help!

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    53. Re:Non-issue really by operagost · · Score: 1

      It's becoming more common to put the insulation on the outside walls now instead of plain house wrap because it is more energy efficient. Insulating the outside means that the framing is now inside the building envelope, so the framing cannot act as a thermal bridge.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    54. Re:Non-issue really by LS1+Brains · · Score: 1

      Our new house is built with all kinds of radio-blocking "stuff." The foil Tekshield in the roof decking, radiant barrier insulation on the exterior walls, Low-E3 windows, etc. all block various forms of electromagnetic energy. WiFi is definitely not affected much - I can connect with ease a couple houses away. Cell phone signals on the other hand, are pretty soundly attenuated. I've had to get an AT&T MicroCell to assure solid coverage. 3-4 bars outside translate to 1 bar inside in the more common parts of the house.

    55. Re:Non-issue really by dissy · · Score: 1

      and I have no need to broadcast my wifi outside of my house.

      What about receiving cell phone signals from outside of the house?

      The number of people who do not have a land line phone at all anymore is pretty high, and climbing every day.

      While you personally may still not own or use a cell phone, your guests might start avoiding coming over if they lose signal upon entering your front door ;}

    56. Re:Non-issue really by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      No idea, as i said I don't read the magazine in question. I'm certainly not going to start so that you don't have to.

    57. Re:Non-issue really by capnkr · · Score: 1

      The networking company I subbed for (they are in another state) did the (poorly implemented IMO) setup, and Yep, they have a yagi mounted that points _down_, at about a 45 degree angle towards the 2 corner rooms with the least amount of signal. I was as surprised as you might have been to have seen that... :)

      --
      "...there are some things that can beat smartness and foresight. Awkwardness and stupidity can." ~ Mark Twain
    58. Re:Non-issue really by Abreu · · Score: 1

      I live in an apartment building made of concrete blocks and rebar (like most construction here in Mexico), and I can't get wifi signal in my living room from my the router in the bedroom.

      So it's not just new houses.

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    59. Re:Non-issue really by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. You need to take into account the selection bias in joining a masturbatory but ultimately useless organization like the PTA in the first place.

    60. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the plus side, the hotel meets fire code.

    61. Re:Non-issue really by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      I just heard this lunchtime that when they installed the new radar equipment on the top of Portsdown hill (Just outside Portsmouth - if you live close, the big blue buildings with the radar on Portsdown hill) they attached the motors only and had it turning for 2-3 weeks before any radar emitters were turned on. They got umpteen complaints from local residents during that period that the 'new radars' were interfering with their TV and causing 'bad reception'. All these phone numbers got logged as time-wasters for subsequent public complaints!

      I'd say they need to change what these motors are doing :-)

    62. Re:Non-issue really by That's+What+She+Said · · Score: 1

      I said it was one of my gripes, but didn't explain it properly. Most people want to use Wi-Fi because they don't want the burden associated with cabling. Also, most of them think that Wi-Fi is newer, better and faster than "traditional" cabled networks, which is almost entirely fictional. Wi-Fi is not a drop-in replacement for cabled Ethernet, and this is my gripe. And I didn't even mention security...

      So, I agree with you that an iPhone, Android, iPad or whatever mobile phone or tablet are true mobile devices and need wireless connectivity in order to be used in their intended ways. But, even then, they can't be used without problems, because Wi-Fi -- be it 802.11b or 802.11n -- isn't perfect when used in the 2.4GHz band.

      I could say that Wi-Fi is not and never will be perfect, as RF systems are very hard to implement even on licensed bands, where regulatory bodies will try and make sure that the spectrum is used correctly.

    63. Re:Non-issue really by lab16 · · Score: 1

      Did you put the insulating soundboard in the interior walls, or just on the outside? I would imagine that it would be a bit of a pain to take down the drywall just for some noise insulation.

    64. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I just heard this lunchtime that when they installed the new radar equipment on the top of Portsdown hill (Just outside Portsmouth - if you live close, the big blue buildings with the radar on Portsdown hill) they attached the motors only and had it turning for 2-3 weeks before any radar emitters were turned on. They got umpteen complaints from local residents during that period that the 'new radars' were interfering with their TV and causing 'bad reception'. All these phone numbers got logged as time-wasters for subsequent public complaints!

      More likely due to multipath reflection from the antennas.

    65. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cell phone 'engineers' who think a huge chunk of metal in front of the antenna isn't a problem probably explains some of my many dropped calls.

    66. Re:Non-issue really by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      No. Most interior walls are not insulated unless you specifically added it to your building plan. It's not code, it fucks up the HVAC system and provides no benefit other than sound attenuation. It's becoming more common to insulate the bathroom for the noise insulation properties but it's absolutely NOT common to insulate interior walls. I sincerely doubt that even if you house plans did call out for interior insulation that it would even be installed. It's so far outside the norm that the insulators would probably think it's a mistake even if they noticed (which they wouldn't because they don't insulate interior walls).

    67. Re:Non-issue really by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Steel studs shouldn't be a problem, the space between studs should be more than wide enough to allow most 2.4 GHz signals through.

    68. Re:Non-issue really by T-Bone-T · · Score: 2

      There's more to it. Not everybody can run ethernet in their apartment.

    69. Re:Non-issue really by ewanm89 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately ethernet over powerlines has a direct antenna out of your house, into the substation and back out to every other house on the substation.

    70. Re:Non-issue really by ewanm89 · · Score: 1

      Fusion wouldn't be bathing anyone in radiation, as to do it one needs to use very powerful magnetic confinement to initiate the process. The problem with fusion has been making that confinement use less power than the power generated.

    71. Re:Non-issue really by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      I'm not an RF engineer, and I don't pretend to have more than average (for an IT guy) understanding of radio. However, my experience corresponds with what you describe. I was able to get a usable signal in my old neighborhood, but running kismet, I could see that the spectrum was getting pretty crowded. My brother, OTOH, used to find his laptop connecting to a neighbor's WIFI more readily than his own more often than not because his whole neighborhood was running full-power and there were no uncluttered frequencies available (this was pre-802.11n).

      That's one of the fringe benefits I've noticed from recently relocating to the boondocks in my home town: my nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away, so just about the only RF I pick up at my house is the RF that my own equipment is generating. I even had to install a cellular repeater in my house because cell phone signals are fair to poor outside and nil inside.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    72. Re:Non-issue really by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      How is one supposed to run Ethernet throughout their apartment and then plug in their iPhone or Android?

      Or, how do you run CAT-V in a 20-year-old log house like mine?

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    73. Re:Non-issue really by plover · · Score: 1

      It's not as uncommon as you think. Builders often put insulation in interior bathroom walls strictly for sound dampening purposes, especially if there's a whirlpool spa tub in the bathroom. Of course, they don't necessarily use foil-backed insulation for this purpose.

      --
      John
    74. Re:Non-issue really by Zoxed · · Score: 1

      > (who wants their kids to hear sex noises?)

      Reminds me of the hilarious episode of Modern Families :-)
      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1627447/

    75. Re:Non-issue really by lamber45 · · Score: 1

      The parent is not talking about running ethernet in the apartment walls — he's talking about apartments so small that an off-the-shelf 25-foot or 50-foot patch cable would stretch everywhere, even if nicely routed close to the baseboard.

    76. Re:Non-issue really by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Steel studs shouldn't be a problem, the space between studs should be more than wide enough to allow most 2.4 GHz signals through.

      Should be, but for some reason the (grounded) studs act as a semi-Faraday cage for WiFi. Perhaps in NLOS applications there's almost always some steel between the radios. I don't claim to have a Tesla-like understanding of radio, but empirically it's a problem.

      I'm just finishing building a new student residence and we specified wood framing, partly for this reason. Internal WiFi is great (open-mesh.com), though cell signal eats it in places due to the brick exterior. At least the roof isn't metal.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    77. Re:Non-issue really by That's+What+She+Said · · Score: 1

      Well... I as considering both options. One is nicer, but both are completely functional.

    78. Re:Non-issue really by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 1

      eventually we should get transparent aluminium windows at which point your home will be a fortress impenetrable to puny radio waves.

      And it will be a nice place for whales.

    79. Re:Non-issue really by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      jar of lemonade with just enough alcohol to keep the bugs away

      So, 95% alcohol then. :)

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    80. Re:Non-issue really by lewiscr · · Score: 1

      I live in a full stucco house, and I have problems from some Cell carriers, but not others. Some carriers (AT&T) have full signal outside, and intermittent connections inside. Other carriers (Sprint) only lose one bar going inside. The online coverage maps tells me that AT&T should work best, but Sprint actually works better.

      Since I switched from EE to CmpE partly to avoid the RF classes, I'm not going to try to explain it.

    81. Re:Non-issue really by jdgeorge · · Score: 1

      In my kid's school, the PTA raises the money to fund things like a computer skills teacher, playground equipment, more expensive class materials, etc.

      And even for a PTA that adds no value, the implication that the self-gratification-oriented crowd is stupider than average is baseless. They may be more overtly annoying, but they're not any stupider than the people who refuse to have anything to do with their children's school.

    82. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir I am sure will provide me with many wonderful laughs.

      Not nearly as many I we get reading your sig: "Fuck that pedo The Prophet Muhammad". Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a live and let live kind of guy, but someone that wants to have sex with a dead religious fanatic? That's a little out there for me.

    83. Re:Non-issue really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't say it's a non-issue, but it's certainly not a new issue. A lot of houses use insulation or soundboard (which is metal coated, like in the picture in TFA) in bedrooms, to deaden sounds (who wants their kids to hear sex noises?)

      who wants to hear their kids sex noises?

      there. FTFY

    84. Re:Non-issue really by Plekto · · Score: 1

      I guess it kind of gets to me how the quality filter here on Slashdot has sunk to essentially none at all. If my 12 year old son could figure out that it's junk, poorly cited, opinion, or some worthless blog in 5 minutes or less, perhaps it should be caught by whomever is in charge. Because there actually *is* plenty of tech-worthy news out there every day.

    85. Re:Non-issue really by ColoradoAuthor · · Score: 1

      Why not just 2 APs with some runs of "leaky coax" (RADIAX or equivalent)? Leaky coax has been bringing all manner of signals into tunnels and metal buildings for years.

    86. Re:Non-issue really by damnfuct · · Score: 1

      Myths, old wives tales, movie physics, or just strange experiments. Part of the fun is in the building, and sometimes part of the fun is packing what you've built full of high explosives. Sounds like a good recipe to me, and much more entertaining than most of the drivel on TV.

    87. Re:Non-issue really by unitron · · Score: 1

      Actually it's been common practice for years now to put some sort of insulating underlayment on the outside of the outer wall framing (and then fiberglass between the studs with the paper backing towards the living space as a vapor barrier).

      Before foam panels, with or without the thin metal skin (that'll cut your fingers *real good*), a processed fiber panel, sometimes referred to as "bearhide" or "blackcat" was used. A stray spark landing on it can smolder for a long time before turning into a pretty good fire.

      That underlayment is actually a calculated part of the strength and rigidity of the studwall, which is why there are rules about using enough of the right kind of nails to attach it to the wood.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    88. Re:Non-issue really by unitron · · Score: 1

      But if the foil isn't grounded,might it not just act as a re-radiator?

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    89. Re:Non-issue really by MattskEE · · Score: 1

      It will definitely cause some increased multipath fading, but that's why new wireless routers often come with the 3 antennas. With the multi-antenna configuration at least one of the antennas will have a strong signal at the laptop (and reciprocally the laptop at the router) because multipath fading is position dependent.

    90. Re:Non-issue really by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Tomorrow during the day, go outside and look for the big orange thing in the sky. That is the fusion reactor I was referring to. It does indeed bathe folks in radiation.

    91. Re:Non-issue really by damnfuct · · Score: 1

      Depends how you define "nice". I am against wireless unless I actually need it (maybe like using a laptop on the couch). Aside from that, if you have a station where you work, a CAT 5 cable is rock-solid. For the most part if you are connected at 100 Mbit/s on a common LAN, you can expect some decent network performance within that LAN. Connect with a 54 Mbit/s wireless connection and then you are at mercy to signal strength, noise, other people on your channel, dropped connections, etc.

    92. Re:Non-issue really by ewanm89 · · Score: 1

      Ah, that one has a few containment issues, but without that containment issues plants wouldn't grow. And solar flares wouldn't cause pretty auroras. Not to mention the earth has it's own shielding, if we didn't keep trying to destroy the natural shielding would help ;).

    93. Re:Non-issue really by damnfuct · · Score: 1

      Except the honeybees would love it

    94. Re:Non-issue really by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      But wouldn't having interior rooms be insulated be more efficient, since you can close off the register in unused rooms? (Sure, it's not a perfect airtight closure.) Then you're at least sending the vast majority of heat into the rooms that matter.

    95. Re:Non-issue really by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      . They may be more overtly annoying, but they're not any stupider than the people who refuse to have anything to do with their children's school.

      Also baseless.

      And strong arguments can be made that the farthest right on the normal distribution are the ones less likely to even have kids in school in the first place.

      There are all sorts of variables that can mess with statistics.

    96. Re:Non-issue really by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      Ever wonder why there is a 10-15F temperature shift in large older office buildings from one side of the building to the other? (particularly cubicle farms) It's because the HVAC system is improperly distributing and convectional airflow is restricted by the the layout. In a standard residential home the return plenum if it exists is restricted to the main rooms and hallways. Heat flow and return airflow occurs through the uninsulated interior walls/doors that leak like sieves.

      Your suggestion of insulating the walls to keep certain rooms off the HVAC chain could work but it would require fully sealing the rooms, but the bigger issue is that it would require some very complicated registers and automated temperature controls along with sensors and a full plenum to every room. That type of design is limited to commercial construction because of the costs. It simply doesn't make sense to put 10K into insulating you interior walls when you would then need to spend an additional 10-20K on building and HVAC improvements to make the system functional. If you want the insulation put it in your exterior walls where it will buy you ten times the energy and HVAC savings.

      As I said, people don't insulate interior walls unless it's for noise reasons. There is an very valid reason to use noise insulation, particularly on bathrooms because modern ventilation fans in bathrooms are damn near silent. You can't even buy noisy ones anymore.

    97. Re:Non-issue really by Eivind · · Score: 1

      Yeah. And for this and other reason, many of the new houses that have significant smart-home technology inside that often takes by overloading RF-signals on the powerlines, come with a low-pass filter in the circuit-breaker-box that stops signals from leaking.

      It's trivial to make a low-pass filter that stops 99.99% of every signal above 10Khz, yet has ignorable influence on the power, since this has a frequency of only 50 or 60 hz.

    98. Re:Non-issue really by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's probably causing weird reflections. Maybe with MIMO the problem would go away. Not practical for laptops though.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    99. Re:Non-issue really by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      I have no idea what a plenum is (will look it up) -- I'm just referring to the 'door' that closes where the heat comes in. Being able to close that in some rooms means that those rooms don't get heat... and my dad sure did that when we were kids. (Closed off extra bedrooms for example.)

      Plus, at home I don't have A/C.. just heating.

    100. Re:Non-issue really by jdgeorge · · Score: 1

      . They may be more overtly annoying, but they're not any stupider than the people who refuse to have anything to do with their children's school.

      Also baseless.

      There is no data, to my knowledge, that correlates self-congratulatory or antisocial behavior with higher or lower intelligence. Therefore one can reasonably expect their IQ to be very nearly the same as the average of the population at large.

      And strong arguments can be made that the farthest right on the normal distribution are the ones less likely to even have kids in school in the first place.

      People without children are not parents of school children, therefore they are outside the set of potential PTA members, and irrelevant to the discussion. Also, the "strong arguments" do not appear to have any foundation in facts.

    101. Re:Non-issue really by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      People without children are not parents of school children, therefore they are outside the set of potential PTA members, and irrelevant to the discussion

      But they are in the set of "the population at large," thus you introduced their relevance.

    102. Re:Non-issue really by That's+What+She+Said · · Score: 1

      By "both options" I meant:

      * Nicer: run cat-5e in the walls, ending in nice 8P8C receptacles;
      * Not-as-nice-but-completely-functional: run an off-the-shelf 50-foot patch cord, routed close to the baseboard.

  3. Sales of Access Points Looking Up by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 1

    This should boost the low end Tech jobs. Lots of external antennas and WiFi boosters to be installed.

    1. Re:Sales of Access Points Looking Up by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      If I had money to build my dream house, I'd put ethernet and coax outlets in every room. Why the fuss over wifi? It's slower and less convenient and less scure. The point of the iPhone is to show off to your coworkers, not to actually use it when you're alone and no one can see.

    2. Re:Sales of Access Points Looking Up by damnfuct · · Score: 1

      Exactly! For a non-moving computer, game system, etc., why use wireless? Too many issues with signal quality for it to be worthwhile if you're not using a cordless device in the first place.

  4. This is because the antenna was invented by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Few meters of cable, small antenna and.... miracle!
    Better this way and have heat saving house.

    1. Re:This is because the antenna was invented by hort_wort · · Score: 1

      Few meters of cable, small antenna and.... miracle!

      Sooo you're saying we should have a cable put the antenna for the wifi right next to our receiving antenna? ...... :P

    2. Re:This is because the antenna was invented by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say that like it's a bad thing. If it helps houses to keep cool in the summer and hot in the winter, we're all for it. Less energy wasted.

      Signed, all the wi-fi equipment manufacturers.

  5. ...advantages outweigh the problems by SpiralSpirit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    it reflects huge amounts of radiant energy transfer from your envelope materials away from the interior of your home, making it that much more efficient to cool, and during winter it helps keep the heat inside the house. The wifi 'issue' just doesn't seem to be that much of an issue when you're talking about one of the core efficiencies in your house, and one of the biggest loads on the nation's energy usage.

    1. Re:...advantages outweigh the problems by radl33t · · Score: 1

      Well said sir!

      We use about 10% of our national energy to heat/cool our homes (another 10% to heat/cool commercial buildings). Energy efficient construction (basically insulation, gap sealing, and orientation/design) can _reduce_ heating/cooling loads by 40-60% at _lower_ initial cost. Saving hundreds of millions of barrels of oil, ft^3 of natural gas, or tons of coal and spending thousands of dollars less for new construction makes the WiFi in the garden a pretty trivial issue in comparison... especially since the savings from 1 or 2 mo of heating/AC bills could buy you an extra AP to solve your problem...

    2. Re:...advantages outweigh the problems by need4mospd · · Score: 1

      I'd be more concerned if a new house was being constructed WITHOUT a radiant barrier. Looks like the problem is the wi-fi, not the house.

    3. Re:...advantages outweigh the problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it provides no advantage.

      A radiant barrier only works if it's allowed to exist in free air space. If it's sandwiched up against adjacent building materials, it becomes a conductive interface, and just lets heat pass to the other side.

      Do some Googling on products like Insul-tarp, and look discrepancies between their stated R-values, and the 'real world' performance.

      Foil does nothing when it's wedged in contact with other materials...

  6. Grounded? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

    From a look at the exterior shot provided, no special effort appears to have been taken to ground the foil. It appears to just be there to keep moisture and/or rabid sheetrock mites from getting into the interior material. I'm a bit surprised that some plastic wasn't cheaper; but it seems otherwise sensible enough.

    For those who know more than I about the dark arts of RF propagation, what would the effect be of ungrounded conductive sheets? Substantial signal attenuation? Not much effect? Completely unpredictable absorption and re-emmision that could vary wildly according to the exact geometry of the piece?

    In a similar vein, if one had an AP/router that one didn't love to much(not so hard when they start at $20...), what would the effect be of attempting to use the metal foil as an antenna, by coupling it directly to the antenna output? Horribly non-optimized for the frequency, I'd imagine; but would it be expected to Not Work, to Not Work and kill the RF amp, to work somewhat, to work better than one might expect?

    1. Re:Grounded? by Spirilis · · Score: 1

      Plastic wouldn't have the infrared heat reflectivity / low emissivity of foil, that's why they use foil. Good question about grounding it though--none of the insulation products really have that in mind (that I know of anyhow), and I'd imagine connecting it in any way to the electrical system (even the ground) would have to be studied for implications for fire safety/etc.

      --
      the real at&t mix
    2. Re:Grounded? by necro81 · · Score: 1

      what would the effect be of ungrounded conductive sheets

      Large ungrounded sheets can still have a significant effect on RF. At the higher frequencies such as 2.4 GHz, any substantial piece of metal can, in effect, be a virtual ground and, as you mention, significantly attenuate the signal. More likely it will reflect signals (more on that below). Taken to an extreme, a house wrapped head to toe in a metal would become a sort of Faraday cage, with no RF passing in or out. In practice, this isn't going to happen, because gaps in the foil will let some signal out. There is also the matter of those big holes called windows and doors, which will still let plenty of energy pass. It tends to be very difficult to build a room that is completely shielded, unless that has been designed into it from the beginning. This is one reason why RF test labs are so expensive.

      A more likely effect of all that foil would be that signals inside the house bounce around a lot more than normal. All those internal reflections and multiple paths from transmitter to receiver can problematic for Wifi, just like it is difficult to have a meaningful conversation from opposite ends of a very echo-y room. Turning up your broadcast strength, akin to shouting, only makes matters worse.

    3. Re:Grounded? by macraig · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The material is being used for its additive insulation value, PERIOD. It is not a moisture barrier, nor is it there to block "sheetrock mites". WTF? THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SHEETROCK MITES.

      Good grief. The original unsubstantiated hysteria in TFA was bad enough; don't heap more FUD on the pile.

    4. Re:Grounded? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      I was attempting a deadpan joke with the 'rabid sheetrock mites'. I'll try to be more overt.

    5. Re:Grounded? by macraig · · Score: 1

      You must be deadly at poker. I really wasn't seeing your tell. Sorry for being so snippy.

    6. Re:Grounded? by david.given · · Score: 1

      It is not a moisture barrier, nor is it there to block "sheetrock mites".

      That's what you think. I'm Scottish; our building standards require us to use paisley-backed foil insulation in the walls to act as a barrier to keep microscopic haggis from migrating through the walls into our drinks cabinets, and consuming all our whisky. It's a serious problem. I wouldn't be at all surprised if other countries didn't have something similar.

    7. Re:Grounded? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plastic wouldn't have the infrared heat reflectivity / low emissivity of foil, that's why they use foil.

      What do you mean by "foil"? For instance, mylar is foil, mylar is very reasonably a plastic. In materials, foils are thin materials, not just metal. Please don't quote Wikipedia, their pages on the generic term foil are hopelessly confused.

    8. Re:Grounded? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are cordially invited to our poker game this Saturday night.

    9. Re:Grounded? by supercrisp · · Score: 1

      The sheetrock mite is a species of the well-documented stone louse genus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVKsbeayihI. I'm sorry I'm not able to provide an English translation.

    10. Re:Grounded? by SEWilco · · Score: 1

      I was attempting a deadpan joke with the 'rabid sheetrock mites'. I'll try to be more overt.

      Of course you were. Only mammals can get rabies, so sheetrock mites can't get rabies. However, they can get distemper.

    11. Re:Grounded? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any whiskey loss you see is simply the "angel's share" and is to be expected. :)

    12. Re:Grounded? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i have worked in designing and measuring shielded encosures, grounding the enclosure pretty much makes no difference. you would be surprised how hard it is to shield radio signals at gigaherz ranges, a tinfoin isnt gonna do much as far as attenuation goes. it does however cause reflections and echoes and that is a very real problem in high speed data links when at any time you receive current last and next bit at the same time(echoes) it becomes pretty much impossible to get any useful data stream. that is a very real problem in large cities with skyscrapers, one family house however is small and thus the echo delays are shorter so perhaps its not much of a problem. overall i wouldnt be all that worried over little tinfoil. it has much less of an effect than you would think

      as for the foil for antenna, it will work so-so but range will be greatly reduced, it wont fry any of your electronics tho, dont worry. if you have broken your antenna and need a makeshift one you are better of with a piece of wire with a lenght of half the wavelenght, 62mm for 2.4GHz

    13. Re:Grounded? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For those who know more than I about the dark arts of RF propagation, what would the effect be of ungrounded conductive sheets? Substantial signal attenuation? Not much effect? Completely unpredictable absorption and re-emmision that could vary wildly according to the exact geometry of the piece?

      In a similar vein, if one had an AP/router that one didn't love to much(not so hard when they start at $20...), what would the effect be of attempting to use the metal foil as an antenna, by coupling it directly to the antenna output? Horribly non-optimized for the frequency, I'd imagine; but would it be expected to Not Work, to Not Work and kill the RF amp, to work somewhat, to work better than one might expect?

      If you were deliberately trying to stop RF there would be much more than using metalized building materials in standard construction ... you might even avoid them and use non-backed insulation with a more comprehensive approach to the RF problem. You would want to know which frequencies you needed to stop ... or you could decide to try to stop them all. The approach would be similar but particulars do matter. For example, homes have windows. There is no practical way to make a useful window that stops RF without spending mega-dollars over what we would normally expect to pay for a window. There are coatings (paints) that can do a better job than tinfoil insulation in batts or sheets. Grounding as a component of proper shielding is also important, as is continuity between shielding elements such as these insulation materials. I normally don't see the average house paying any attention to that during construction.

      Would it have some effect? Maybe. Would it be effective enough to stop RF? Probably not to the extent that it would really matter.

      The thing is, even when you deliberately set out to stop RF, it's notoriously difficult to do in practice (although the theory is straightforward; it's easily a case where theory and practice butt heads when the time comes to test your particular setup). RF could reasonably be described as "sneaky" when you're trying to stop it.

      Antennas need to be made very specifically for certain frequencies. Bad antennas (or inadvertently constructing something that acts as an antenna) might have some limited value but making a "real" one is orders of magnitude better for wanted signals, and they are not terribly complex to build ... lots of math, computers help here, and a bit of research and practical application. It is broadly speaking much easier to make an antenna to receive or broadcast than it is to stop RF infiltration.

    14. Re:Grounded? by adolf · · Score: 1

      AFAICT, a Faraday cage doesn't need to be grounded in order to be effective. It just has to surround the thing, and be conductive at whatever the frequency in question is. It doesn't have to be a particular shape. (It might make sense that it must be at least half a wavelength long in any dimension, but that's a foregone conclusion on house-sized scale and cellphone/WiFi frequencies.)

      Quoth Wikipedia: "A Faraday cage's operation depends on the fact that an external static electrical field will cause the electrical charges within the cage's conducting material to redistribute themselves so as to cancel the field's effects in the cage's interior."

      Anecdotal supporting evidence: I used to use a small vinyl pouch lined with funny-looking RF-shielding fabric to hide my phone when the boss was irrevocably tracking me with GPS. It worked fine at blocking GPS, worked fine at blocking phone calls, and also did a good job blocking Bluetooth. It also worked fine at killing the battery life as the phone tried really, really hard to communicate with a tower. I got it at Dealextreme. It was cheap. It was not grounded.

      It also had a separate pocket wherein the phone was not surrounded by the conductive fabric, but only covered on one side. The phone and GPS worked fine when in this orientation.

      As to connecting the router to the house: It's unlikely to destroy anything in and of itself with a common low-power device, but it's also unlikely to work very well for all of the same reasons that a Faraday cage does work to begin with. You'd have better luck with a 1/4-wave coathanger for an antenna.

      And if the house/Faraday cage built up a static charge due to being completely isolated from ground, it might eventually discharge across your router. Which would make you sad. (In practice, it'll be slightly grounded anyway, whether intentional or not: the studs are slightly conductive, the sheathing is conductive, the fasteners are very conductive, and reinforced concrete foundations are surprisingly conductive.)

    15. Re:Grounded? by damnfuct · · Score: 1

      I don't even know why you make the effort; the scotch death of the universe is inevitable.

    16. Re:Grounded? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How much do you want to bet he spend 10 minutes searching Wikipedia and Google for "Sheetrock Mites"? :)

    17. Re:Grounded? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I'll try to be more overt

      Don't. That way we got two laughs.

      And there is actually an animal that is very similar ti a sheetrock mite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_louse

    18. Re:Grounded? by Spirilis · · Score: 1

      Aluminum foil. That's what they use for the radiant barrier insulation.

      --
      the real at&t mix
  7. It's called... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...insulation.
    The rest of the planet already has it, only they don't build ticky-tacky houses that need them in every fucking wall.

  8. same with tin roofs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    my brothers house in Austrlai has the same problem. The roof is steel tin and they get almost no mobile reception

  9. "Alarm Bells"? by Tintivilus · · Score: 2

    Author of TFA says he doesn't know if the material he observed has an impact on radio, just quoting the fact that it's "reflective" from a vendor brochure, but according to the same pdf the material is in fact metallic

    Protect TF200 Thermo includes a tough non-woven PP core with a durable bright high purity permeable aluminium layer, bonded to the substrate.

    Yep, sounds like a radio-eater all right. Interesting stuff, too.

  10. awesome by spirit_fingers · · Score: 1, Insightful

    At least I won't have to wear my tinfoil hat at home.

  11. It's Not a Bug, It's a Feature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It won't be long before 'home wrapped in tinfoil to help prevent brain cancer' is going to start showing up in real estate ads.

    Cheers,
    Matt

    1. Re:It's Not a Bug, It's a Feature by Anrego · · Score: 1

      I'm actually curious what the effect would be, as I assume no effort is made to ground the wrap. Would it act as a shield.. or just a large antenna.

      Paranoia aside, I think we actually could do with a little less RF. If this stuff just incidently provides a shield agaisnt the insane amount of random RF that we get blasted with day to day, I don't see the harm. If you want wifi outside your house, get an external antenna!

      I also wonder if shielding the outside of your house would improve reception inside.

    2. Re:It's Not a Bug, It's a Feature by damnfuct · · Score: 1

      Yeah; I heard RF in the range of about 600 THz is especially dangerous, and it's everywhere. What is this world coming to? Let's sign a petition to reduce all sources of radiation in that range (yes, all of them :P).

  12. Re:even more killing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the dead and dismembered are unproven, no war exists.

  13. Really? by yoshi_mon · · Score: 2

    And the new householder is likely to be none the wiser.

    You are telling me that Joe and Jane Enduser don't know about how RF works? Or that their computer is not the monitor? Or that their smartphones are also working off of RF?

    And further that there are new homes that are being built without setting up even some basic runs for modern say CAT6 wires? You say that all you need is co-ax? Or some 1900 tech pair of twisted strands?

    Oh and the right wing tells me to chant USA USA USA no matter what idiotic news I see? Golly Lassy! Tech Timmy is down a well! Better go run to Fox News with why ignorance is good!

    --

    Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
    1. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you should look in your mirror and then ask yourself about ignorance?

    2. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Good god, you're going to die of a coronary if you don't stop obsessing over politics so much that you have to insert your inane rantings into every unrelated topic.

    3. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shit, just show me a house with conduit so I can run my own wires. I hate having to break open walls and drill through firestops to wire a bedroom with ethernet.

    4. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wtf are you talking about?

    5. Re:Really? by briansct · · Score: 1

      Yeah it blows me away that "modern" houses are not already wired with Cat5e as a minimum but in reality they probably already are. I owned a 'new' house in FL built back in 2000 ish. it was wired with cat5 but terminated with RJ15 to a phone line. . . like I said that was back 11 years ago. I'm not sure why builders don't term the cables into something more useful. I would love to have RJ45's in every room rather than some stupid phone line that I haven' t used since 1999. But alas, I would still prefer connect via wired over wireless any day. Real problem is ignorance! consumers not knowing that their monitor is not their computer. . . .PEBCAK.....!

      --
      What's the point of Mod points over a long weekend?
    6. Re:Really? by Mage+Powers · · Score: 2

      cabling is the hard part, reterminating the ends should be relatively easy

    7. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My house was built in 2005 and the builders said that they don't bother with wired networking because everyone has wireless. Luckily, they used Cat 5 for the phone lines, so it only took a bit of replacing jacks, mapping links, and patching the runs together (or inserting a gigabit switch instead of just a patch cable) to get a less-than-ideal wired link to most rooms.

    8. Re:Really? by yoshi_mon · · Score: 1

      We have embraced the ignorance generation. I wish I were kidding but that is what we are/have been doing. And I take no pleasure in attacking the far fight but they have taken such a hold of our public discourse that I have to.

      Back in the 70's there was no evangelical movement. Religion was left to itself. But in the 80's there were people that decided that due to the decline in relgion that they had to start up the 'movement' to make sure people knew that ignorance/intolerance/and all the other stupid shit that religion promotes is good was center stage. And they took every dollar they had, as well as every dollar that they could get from stupid/dying/ignorant people and funded the right wing that we know now.

      The right wing that we now know is not the right wing I grew up with. It is a religiously charged hardcore social addenda movement that has nothing to do with the old school republican party. And any republican that claims they are the same is a liar.

      So way off topic so I'll mod myself down here. Just saying. I'm so angry that I have to live in this generation of people that have been forced into ignorance because the current mythology in power is upset that it is not as strong as it used to be. I've left much of my old school hardcore atheism behind as I've grown older but FUCK YOU mythology. Seriously, fuck off. You served your purpose and now you need to die just like the horse and buggy.

      --

      Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
    9. Re:Really? by Zoxed · · Score: 1

      > And further that there are new homes that are being built without setting up even some basic runs for modern say CAT6 wires?

      Yep: I really regret not getting our new maisonette wired for ethernet and with TV sockets in the bedrooms :-(

    10. Re:Really? by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Uh, if it was wired for phone lines then it is a series connection through all the jacks in the house. For network wiring you would need "home runs" for each jack independently. When I last bought a new construction house and got to spec the wiring the only guy the builder would allow to do it freaked out when he figured out what was really involved with CAT5 home runs to a central point in the basement. Then he wanted to charge $60 a jack to put the wall plates on.

    11. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are telling me that Joe and Jane Enduser don't know about how RF works?

      I think he is.

      Or that their computer is not the monitor?

      ...What?

      And further that there are new homes that are being built without setting up even some basic runs for modern say CAT6 wires? You say that all you need is co-ax? Or some 1900 tech pair of twisted strands?

      Who are you talking to...

      Oh and the right wing tells me to chant USA USA USA no matter what idiotic news I see? Golly Lassy! Tech Timmy is down a well! Better go run to Fox News with why ignorance is good!

      What are you bitching at? Contractors? Stupid people? The media? Conservatives?

      Some problems aren't related to one another.

    12. Re:Really? by damnfuct · · Score: 1

      Or that their computer is not the monitor?

      'Scuse me, mentlegen... what are you trying to say here?

    13. Re:Really? by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a multi-drop bus - it won't be fast, but Ethernet will handle it. Though it would have been nice to run token ring over it, or something - any Linux driver I'm forgetting, guys?

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  14. RF tight house. by unlocked · · Score: 1

    I would think you would want a house shielded from all RF in or out so you could use external antenna and control what comes in and out and what is available even down to each room.

  15. Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like how Slashdot takes the default position that anything perceived as disrupting internet access is a bad thing.

    Maybe some consumers would actually LIKE to attenuate the radio signals passing through, and to and from their house?

    I mean, okay from room-to-room, you'll probably want reception, but not necessarily outside.

    This is nothing that can't be solved with a few repaters. I mean come on. You bought the house. You'll probably stick around for most of the 30 year mortgage, right?

    Oh wait, you're going to rent it out to some poor suckers? Slumlord, FTW!

    1. Re:Big Deal by Anrego · · Score: 1

      This is nothing that can't be solved with a few repaters.

      Or some wires!

      Ok, I get that for laptops wifi makes sense .. but if it's a desktop... wire that up!

      And if your gonna run some wires, for the love of the great fire cactus, put some conduit in place and leave a permanent wire pull!

    2. Re:Big Deal by damnfuct · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that mobile phones also broadcast in the microwave region; but really, who uses a mobile phone?

  16. Site Survey by rogueippacket · · Score: 1
    If WiFi is that important to you, you need to carry out a site survey before buying. Here are a couple questions I ask myself before buying a house:
    1. Does it have complete cell phone coverage? If so, WiFi is probably also a safe bet. If still concerned, bring a laptop and AP along.
    1. Is it wired for Cat5e/6 or Coax? If not, how easy is it to do? Is there an accessible panel in the basement?
    1. Which ISPs rule the area? Once I know that, I usually call and ask if they can provide decent service to the house.

    It may seem funny when these things actually factor into buying a house or not, but they can be a deal-breaker for some.

    1. Re:Site Survey by delinear · · Score: 1

      Considering parking is an important consideration for some people, I don't think it's necessarily funny that other people take connectivity into account. I live on a street where all parking is on street and if you're unlucky and arrive home at a busy time you might end up parking around the corner and walking an extra hundred feet to get home. Some people seem to get infuriated by that even though it inconveniences them to the tune of a few seconds. On the other hand, if I'm working from home I might spend 10+ hours on the laptop/mobile - lack of signal would be a major disruption. I know which is top of my priority list when I next move home. I find it odd that TFA suggests buyers would have no way of knowing about poor phone reception though - surely they can take their phones with them while viewing the house and, y'know, check.

    2. Re:Site Survey by plover · · Score: 1

      Buying a house is all about location, location, location. Scenery, convenience, parking, noise, cellular coverage, neighbors, parks, water, privacy, roads, local industries, tax base, schools, drainage, lot size, all that stuff matters to some degree or another to various people.

      For me, the things I can change are the things I can ignore. Cell coverage or wi-fi? I'll buy a booster or an extra access point, problem solved. Noise? I can put in better windows. Schools? If he wasn't already gone and I had the need, I would drive him to an alternate school. Scenery? That's trickier. You have to be sure that the empty lot next door isn't zoned for a three story apartment building. Drainage? A valley is likely to have more water problems than a hilltop. And so on.

      Then there's the matter of the house itself: architecture, style, price range, rooms, woodwork, siding, construction, age, condition, etc. Changing architecture is much harder than changing paint colors.

      And none of that matters a bit when the wife says "Oh, honey, I want this one, they have flowers on the antique light switch cover plates!!" Sigh.

      --
      John
  17. keeps neighbors off my network by timmy.cl · · Score: 1

    That surely will help keeping my neighborhood from connecting to my network. *tinfoil wrapping my house now*

  18. Really reaching here by PingSpike · · Score: 2

    I love to complain about stupid things more than your average person, but is this really a problem? Put a repeater in the window. My heating bill, on a 1980s house is by far once of the most cash sucking and depressing aspects of my budget.

    And as an added bonus, maybe it'll keep neighbors from stealing everyone's wifi.

    1. Re:Really reaching here by LizardKing · · Score: 1

      My heating bill, on a 1980s house is by far once of the most cash sucking and depressing aspects of my budget.

      Same here, but with a 1920's house. I'll be breaking out the Bacofoil tonight, and covering the whole place with it.

    2. Re:Really reaching here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My heating bill, on a 1980s house is by far once of the most cash sucking and depressing aspects of my budget.

      Homes use about 22% of our nation's energy and big part of that is because of our stick frame building methods. Our homes have been built pretty much the same way for that last couple of centuries. Sure we have indoor plumbing, electricity and insulation, but the framing is pretty much the same thing except for some minor tweaks over the years.

      It's horribly inefficient to build, maintain and heat. There are better ways to build homes that cost the same BUT unfortunately, they're manufactured - I'm not talking about trailers but houses that are built to quality standards that are impossible to do on the job site. But no, people don't get them because manufactured home == trailer, dog, Confederate flag, missing teeth, and country music.

    3. Re:Really reaching here by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Only because you chose to not fix that problem.

      $1500 to have the house insulation upgraded.
      $6800 to have the AC and furnace changed over to a SEER 18 and a 98% efficient setup.
      $6500 to have new double pane windows installed
      $1100 to have the house checked for air leaks and those fixed with caulking.

      My winter heating bill IN January when it was 6-10 degrees F outside most of the time in michigan up where we get real snow was $80.00, December was less and Febuary was less.

      and you can do all of that in stages. the furnace and AC I got $1500.00 off my taxes because I bought them, that paid for the insulation. The windows we did over the course of a year one window at a time. I had a carpenter show me the first two times, I did the rest except for the big 8'X12' picture windows in the front room.

      Stopping restaurants for 2 years paid for the windows, insulation and air leak check and repair. The furnace and AC were paid for by not buying a new car this year, suffering with a 42" 720p plasma, and torturing my family by not going to Florida for a 1 week vacation but staying home. I know I should be turned in for torturing my family.

      Most people live in old houses with crap insulation and crap windows that have a 600 year old furnace in the basement that are never maintained properly. Your home is in disrepair, fix it and your heat and AC bills drop like a rock.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    4. Re:Really reaching here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only because you chose to not fix that problem.

      $1500 to have the house insulation upgraded.
      $6800 to have the AC and furnace changed over to a SEER 18 and a 98% efficient setup.
      $6500 to have new double pane windows installed
      $1100 to have the house checked for air leaks and those fixed with caulking.

      Which of these fixes had the greatest effect on your usage?

    5. Re:Really reaching here by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      Greatest effect was the furnace. When we bought the home 3 years ago the furnace looked new, (the previous home owner though that cleaning things is the same as maintaining things, it looks great and was even waxed with car wax yearly!) so I investigated and discovered that that model was last made in 1989 and that serial number was made in 1986 and it was a 62% efficient furnace, 25 years later the furnace guy determined that it was running at about 55% (they do a thermal comparison of exhaust temp and air heating temp.) replacing that alone dropped a Significant amount. From $380 a month to $180 a month.

      Air leaks and insulation fixed comfort problems in rooms. the main living area had enough air leaks that on a winter windy day it was 10 degrees colder than the rest of the house. The last 3 together took off another $100 a month. and honestly all of this should have been done anyways as normal house maintenance. A house with the original 1950's windows still in place is the same as buying a car with bald tires that are showing the belts.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    6. Re:Really reaching here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My heating bill, on a 1980s house is by far once of the most cash sucking and depressing aspects of my budget.

      Same here, but with a 1920's house.

      Same here, but with a 1900's house. Do I win?

    7. Re:Really reaching here by stephathome · · Score: 2

      I don't know if this is true for all manufactured homes, but when my husband and I looked at them about 10 years ago, interest rates to buy a manufactured home were higher than for regular homes because lenders treated them as though they would devalue over time.

    8. Re:Really reaching here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes... Very good, well done.

      It must be nice to be able to afford all that.

      So that was an initial $6800 outlay, nice to have that sort of cash floating around.
      Sounds like another $6500 outlay for the windows, even if you did them yourself.
      We don't eat out more than 4 times a year, no big savings there.
      New car? hah!
      43" plasma... We just upgraded from our 20" CRT - and that was only because our neighbours gave us their old tv.
      Holiday? We might be able to stay at a friend's house this summer - if we can afford to get there.

      Our house might be in disrepair, but much as we'd like, right now there is sod all we can do about it.

    9. Re:Really reaching here by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      You cant afford $250 a window every 3 months?
      You cant learn how to install that yourself?
      You cant blow in insulation yourself? Most home improvement box stores will sell you the insulation for cheap and rent you the machine..
      Shot of the furnace and AC, every other thing you can do yourself and do it a LOT cheaper. I paid to have it done except the windows.

      Cost of your home is more than the mortgage payment. you figured for monthly maintenance costs when you bought it right?

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    10. Re:Really reaching here by plover · · Score: 1

      So you can afford a $300 heating bill over the $80 heating bill in the winter, but cannot spend $250 each month in the summer to replace a window at a time? Or spending $220 month in the summer adding insulation to your house? They're actually quite simple tasks that you can learn fairly quickly, so there should be nothing stopping you from doing the work yourself.

      It always surprises me that people who can least afford the high cost to heat their house are the ones who never ever do anything about it.

      If you really think you can't spend that much, can you afford a few batts of insulation to stuff around the windows? Can you buy some $15 packs of 3M window wrap, and at least stop the biggest drafts? Can you replace the worn-out trim strips around your doorways? There are a lot of inexpensive measures that you could take that won't be as good as actually adding insulation or replacing windows, but will help save some energy (and money.)

      --
      John
    11. Re:Really reaching here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      dude, you're missing some 0's. for my 1000 sqft 1950's Eichler i've already got estimates for the following:

      add insulation to the roof: ~$5000
      currently no insulation in interior or exterior walls. no idea how much that would cost.
      replace windows with double pane: $15,000 - $20,000 depending on contractor.
      new heater: will find out this weekend. but current heater is located in the wall in the hallway. only heats the hallway. I have a fireplace that does a great job of heating the house, but on the coldest nights when you need it the most, they always issue a Spare the Air alert (www.sparetheair.org) and make it illegal to heat your house. (damn hippies).

      Haven't gotten to looking for air leaks. Kinda pointless until I replace the windows (most of which have obvious air gaps).

      If I could afford it, I'd destroy the house and build a new one (supposedly about $400,000 (keep in mind this is in silicon valley)). Eichler was an idiot.

       

    12. Re:Really reaching here by LizardKing · · Score: 1

      I tried paying $1500 or an insulation upgrade, but it isn't legal tender in this part of the world. More seriously, British houses tend to be far solidly constructed than most US ones, and as a result modifications can be expensive if they need to get into the fabric of the building..

    13. Re:Really reaching here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $1500 to have the house insulation upgraded. $6800 to have the AC and furnace changed over to a SEER 18 and a 98% efficient setup. $6500 to have new double pane windows installed $1100 to have the house checked for air leaks and those fixed with caulking.

      I'm not arguing the point, I'm arguing the prices. $1500 to upgrade the insulation? Are you talking about just rolling some pink stuff over the attic floor? I'm looking to spend about $4k on improving just my attic insulation (foam in the rafters, much more efficient and required because sealing the attic from the living space properly would destroy the charm of the 1870's architecture); I'm still debating what to do about the walls (tear off the plaster & lathe, or use some sort of "blown in" product? I'd love to pour foam, but that will be pricy).

      $6800 for a heat pump I might see for a small unit, My new HE boiler ran just shy of $10k installed though. It will pay for itself in a few years (my bill just dropped $500 a month at its peak), not to mention the whole "won't die in our sleep of CO poisoning" thing

      $6500 for new windows? From the sound of it, you did the install yourself (Hopefully he showed you how to do it in a leak proof manner), not something I'd recommend for the typical DIY'er. But typical costs for a professional install of quality windows I've seen are $20k for an average sized (1500 sq ft) home.

      Even so, you've described $16,000 of upgrades. No small thing for many Americans.

    14. Re:Really reaching here by ePhil_One · · Score: 1

      My heating bill, on a 1980s house is by far once of the most cash sucking and depressing aspects of my budget.

      Same here, but with a 1920's house.

      Same here, but with a 1900's house. Do I win?

      Same here, but with an 1876 home. You lose!

      --
      You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
    15. Re:Really reaching here by adolf · · Score: 1

      A house with the original 1950's windows still in place is the same as buying a car with bald tires that are showing the belts.

      Normally I agree with you... but bald tires can kill you dead, while old windows just slowly drain your pocketbook. :)

      It's more like driving a car with 200,000 miles on the ignition system, with the original coil(s), wires, and plugs. It might still seem to run OK, but it's going to dig a hole in your wallet with fuel usage.

      Ironic and now completely off-topic footnote: As I write this, I'm listening to the sash rattle in the wind in the 100+-year-old window beside me...BUT I keep my fleet of old cars running in top form. Priorities, I guess. ;)

  19. Phones? by identity0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Uh, Wifi? I'd think the cell phones (I assume that's what OP means by 'mobiles') are the important one...

    Plenty of people including myself only have a cell phone these days.

    My apartment's fine, but I have school in a very concrete-and-steel building that has very poor phone reception, which ends up draining my battery in no time. They do have good wifi because of a lot of APs, though. Remember, you can add more APs for wifi, but not for phones.

    1. Re:Phones? by internerdj · · Score: 1

      There are several products out there that act to boost cellphone reception in a building that inhibits reception. I haven't tried them but they seem to get decent reviews. I have poor reception in my current house and was tempted to try one but I don't want to drop the money on one and find out that it was just because I'm too far from the tower at the house.

    2. Re:Phones? by fizzup · · Score: 1

      Remember, you can add more APs for wifi, but not for phones.

      Proven false by example.

    3. Re:Phones? by Tintivilus · · Score: 2

      Remember, you can add more APs for wifi, but not for phones.

      Not true. Residential users can use broadband backhaul for relatively cheap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femtocell)

      Bigger users can get bigger equipment. Last year, my office installed entire cell stations for major providers in our main equipment rooms and wired them with low-loss coax to little dome antennas scattered around the buildings. Helps coverage immensely :)

    4. Re:Phones? by synapse7 · · Score: 1

      Actually additional cellular APs can be added., however this may not be desirable for a school.

    5. Re:Phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These things sell like crazy:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femtocell

    6. Re:Phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. OP means mobiles.

      I take it you haven't looked up "cell phone" on wikipedia recently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_phone

    7. Re:Phones? by Reeses · · Score: 1

      Both ATT and Verizon will sell you a cellular access point that plugs into your regular internet connected network.

      --
      Reeses
    8. Re:Phones? by Zoxed · · Score: 1

      > but I have school in a very concrete-and-steel building that has very poor phone reception

      You could always try listening to that person standing at the front of the class. Maybe they have something interesting to say ;-)

    9. Re:Phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually you can add cell phone antennas inside the house.

      http://www.repeaterstore.com/
      or search "cell phone repeater"

      they work great, put one on a pole at my dads hermitage to boost his cell reception... even got most of the neighbors to chip in.

    10. Re:Phones? by adolf · · Score: 2

      Everyone and their brother replied to you to remind you about the existence of femptocells and small/cheap repeaters and such, but those don't work all that hot in a large building that actively eats RF or have lots of users.

      Fortunately, there's other solutions that actually work and actually scale. (Fiber backhaul for in-building wireless? You betcha.)

      There's other examples, too.

      (It's always amusing to me that Slashdot will, on one hand, recommend the fanciest and best networking kit imaginable, and then with the other hand suggest the shittiest and worst-performing RF stuff available.)

  20. Every challenge presents an opportunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Surely the savings as a result of engery efficiency would pay for an external access point (if desired) a femtocell box for your cellular signal issues and a faster internet connection to power it all...

  21. Building codes by Omnifarious · · Score: 1

    This is irritating, but what I think is more irritating is that fiber is not required in all new buildings, especially condos and apartment buildings. It's a huge pain to get it in there once the building is built, and data wiring is just as important electrical wiring in the future. Why isn't this being done?

    1. Re:Building codes by Combatso · · Score: 2

      you will find very few low, or non voltage wiring requirments in any code... the reason hydro lines are required by code, how to run cable, where to put outlets, number of outlets per wall (min) and cable size.. its becuase its dangerous stuff... houses rarely burn, and people rarely die becuase fiber was installed wrong.. However, over-amp'ing copper or alluminum can start fires and kill people... so all the stuff the home owner wont see, needs to meet code before its covered.. building codes are for safety,... that isnt to say, that in new home construction one shouldnt wire the house for all forseen future projects.. When I reno'd my house I ran 2 runs of cat5e, 2 runs of rg6, and since i had a few boxes in the garage, 1 run of cat6 to each room back to a wiring closet (i use the term closet losely). I think i'm using 2 of the wires total, just for my media centre PC... but im set for my forseeable future... it would be pointless for me to install fiber, since I wont be using it and its not going to net me any return when I sell.... If i was mistaken by your comment, and you meant, fiber to the prem during construction, thats up to you municipality to decide... I know the last mile provdiders here are doing that in my municipality for all the new developments.

    2. Re:Building codes by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Building legislation is always a few years behind everything else, and is almost invariably a reaction to legislation or safety issues rather than a reaction to an inconvenience.

      Fun fact: The UK enacted the Disability Discrimination Act in 1995, which essentially forced organisations to make allowances for people with disabilities.

      UK building regulations caught up in 2004. Lots of large organisations commissioned buildings some years after 1995 and found they had to make changes shortly after the builders had left, and because it had all been done according to building regulations there was very little they could do apart from stump up the cost.

    3. Re:Building codes by Chemisor · · Score: 1

      Because you can't just plug fiber into your computer. Most motherboards come with ethernet ports, but I have never seen one with fiber input.

    4. Re:Building codes by Omnifarious · · Score: 1

      That's not what the fiber would be for. Though I imagine that within 5 years we will start seeing motherboards with fiber hookups on them. 10 gigabit ethernet is hard to run over any reasonable length of copper. The fiber would be for hooking up to the outside world.

    5. Re:Building codes by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      10 gigabit ethernet is hard to run over any reasonable length of copper. The fiber would be for hooking up to the outside world.

      15 years ago, 100mb over copper was hard to run over any reasonable length of copper as well. Technology improves, noise rejection gets better, fibre continues to stay on high end stuff rather than common stuff. When we first started rolling it out in the last building I was in, we had to rewire large portions of the network (left from the previous owners and installed improperly ... laying directly on top of light ballists for instance) just to get a reliable connection ... now days, those same old wires are carrying 100mb flawlessly. The cards and switches and their support equipment improved to the point that its pretty hard to screw up 100mb connections anywhere now, short of injecting an FM radio signal directly onto the line.

      Fiber to a PC at a desk is a cunt unless the PC is tucked away and no one can get anywhere near the fiber itself. You don't want your secretary anywhere near fibre, he/she WILL break it, not intentionally, but simply because its fragile and to them its just another wire that they can run over with their chair. Copper handles that far better than fiber, and by the time he/she needs 10gb, copper will be more than capable of handling it just fine.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    6. Re:Building codes by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      You need a fiber card. Plenty of organizations are on fiber networks.

      Visit your nearest FBI office and check out their networking. All fiber.

    7. Re:Building codes by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Terminate the fiber electrically at the wall socket, and run a short copper run to the PC.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  22. Content free article by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wow, talk about content free.

    That article had even less content than the guy who was pushing his blog posts awhile back.

    Your insulation 'might' be blocking wifi &/or 3g. But we don't know, we didn't bother to do any actual research.

    --
    If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
  23. So where is the real article? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Instead of a guy looking at a photo we need somebody that has pulled some of the offcuts out of an industrial bin and measured what happens when they send signals at the popular wifi frequencies through it.
    We are not supposed to be the couch potatoes here.
    My excuses for not doing it is that I have only a small amount of knowledge about RF, no gear apart from a few cheap access points and small antennas, and more importantly live halfway around the world from where this stuff is going into houses. It seems to all be black plastic filling that role around here.

    1. Re:So where is the real article? by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      The stuff is $7-$10/sheet (4'x8') at most home improvement stores. I just got done insulating an outbuilding with it (and with the foiled bubble wrap for the parts that the solid polystyrene board wouldn't work well for). Given an average new home and my experience with the outbuilding, yeah, this will block WiFi. My phone drops coverage to almost nill inside and full bars outside. Both operate in a similar frequency range.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    2. Re:So where is the real article? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      That's a bit of a pain - it sounds like it's worth putting in a cheap directional antenna outside and a wire from that to a cheap omnidirectional ceiling antenna inside as a passive repeater to get a strong signal (or stand near a window). Either that or go outside anyway which is my usual habit even with a strong signal - smoking and using mobile phones both get the antisocial outside treatment in a lot of places.

  24. TEMPEST by SemiSpook · · Score: 1

    Google it, if you don't know what it is (and why the hell are you on /. if you don't know).

    I agree with someone above: this is a double edged sword. A lot of folks are starting to use lighter, reflective materials in order to handle other forms of radiating heat and insulation (you'll see this more in older construction vice newer). Issue is a lot of these materials rely on metallic foils (much akin to those space blankets we all started seeing back in the mid-80s), and people just don't have a good idea as to how these foils interact with radio waves.

    I would say in either case (new or old construction), do your due diligence to do an adequate Wi-Fi survey (I'd recommend using ALL the 802.11 standards (a, b, g, AND n)) as well as determining if the residence is either wired or capable to be wired with Cat5e/Cat6. Personally, I'd go the wired route, as it's more secure and you can combine cabling with coax, phone, HDMI, etc. to multiple points in a room, allowing for maximum flexibility. Sure, costs a little extra, but in the end, it's definitely worth it.

  25. Issue really. by xMrFishx · · Score: 1

    Definitely, I live in a new build student accommodation block. I can only get mobile phone signal with my phone sitting on the window sill, and it's only GSM at that. Outside I get a nice full bar 3G connection. The only way I can make phone calls is by using my Bluetooth headset, as if I pick the phone up, calls will drop shortly after. This means I must regularly keep my headset charged and can have a maximum of 4 hours talking with about an hour charge break in the middle, god forbid I forget to charge my headset and someone calls me. It can be very inconvenient.

    I may to be moving into a new build elsewhere eventually but I have a feeling I'll have to purchase a transmitter power controllable WiFi access point (adverse to a standard router where the transmitter power is fixed generally) such as a Cisco commercial AP and possibly a mobile phone repeater. Hopefully that will solve both wireless issues if the building also suffers from Faraday caging. Cheap routers really struggle to penetrate this, or rather don't reflect enough times to go out of a window or through a doorway and thus drop off. Not ideal.

    1. Re:Issue really. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I really don't believe that this is anything "new". When I got out of high school (Class of '74) I went into construction. During my apprenticeship as a carpenter, we put up houses with insulation that looked like pressed fiber impregnated with tar, we put up other insulation that looked a lot like styrofoam with foil backing, AND, we most commonly put up fiberglass bats. I didn't pay for the stuff, and I didn't know what it cost - but it was fairly obvious that when we used the pressed fiber stuff, it generally went into a low budget home. Fiberglass bats went into midrange homes. And, that styrofoam with the foil backing went into upper class homes - oftentimes in addition to the fiberglass bats.

      So - some goony birds saw that insulation, and wondered if it might interfere with radio waves. Or, to be fair, I guess they were curious about it's impact on some specific bandwidths. I can assure you that the foil backed insulation had no effect on AM/FM radio reception, because we ALWAYS had radios playing.

      I couldn't say about WIFI or cellphones, or wireless internet. It might stop it - but I doubt it.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    2. Re:Issue really. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And there is the proof of the conspiracy. I too was unable to receive either cellular or WiFi in 1974.

    3. Re:Issue really. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Definitely, I live in a new build student accommodation block. I can only get mobile phone signal with my phone sitting on the window sill, and it's only GSM at that.

      Student housing is built using COMMERCIAL construction. You don't get wood 2x4 + sheetrock construction like you do on residential housing - you get metal studs with a metal mesh lathe laid over the top before you even get to think about putting sheetrock on. By definition: a Faraday cage.

      Also, if you move into any sort of apartment building you're likely to see the same type of construction.

    4. Re:Issue really. by godefroi · · Score: 2

      you get metal studs with a metal mesh lathe laid over the top before you even get to think about putting sheetrock on

      Huh?

      I'm currently working in a commercial building, and I have been working here continuously since before the gutting and remodeling. Continuously. I saw every wall of this building torn down and rebuilt around me, and while LOTS of metal studs (and the metal "tracks" that go underneath and on top of them) went up, I never once saw any "metal mesh lathe". They just screwed the sheetrock to the studs, just like I'd do to wood studs in my home. Wikipedia seems to indicate that this is normal.

      --
      Karma: Poor (Mostly affected by lame karma-joke sigs)
    5. Re:Issue really. by Bobfrankly1 · · Score: 1

      You must have AT&T.

    6. Re:Issue really. by xMrFishx · · Score: 1

      No, O2, England's equivalent.

    7. Re:Issue really. by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't have any problems finding a wireless router that has adjustable transmission power. My cheap router is adjustable. You certainly don't need to look at commercial APs.

    8. Re:Issue really. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      My workplace has a temporary building to accomodate overflow until a new perminant site is built. I don't know what the walls are, but we can't get a decent signal from one room to another adjacent. I suspect it's some sort of wire mesh inside for structural support.

    9. Re:Issue really. by xMrFishx · · Score: 1

      Really? Is this a newer feature on household APs or just something certain brands add to their firmware? None of my netgears have ever had this, and they were the high end models at the time of purchase. Admittedly, they're all terrible and had to be rebooted more times than I wish to think about. I tend to just worry about buying yet another expensive home router for it to be as bad as the cheap models and just as restrictive in software features.

    10. Re:Issue really. by Vindicator9000 · · Score: 2

      A Linksys WRT54G with DD-WRT installed will do it quite nicely.

    11. Re:Issue really. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually this might be because the building is Made out of brick or cement as older school buildings seem to be made out of. Or potentially there is lines strung through the building interfering with the signal. it actually has nothing to do with the insulation.

    12. Re:Issue really. by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Metal mesh is usually for plaster, not sheet rock. I think it's an older style of construction replacing wood slat and plaster, but a quick internet search reveals that the mesh is still being sold. Probably for certain types of construction as well as patching the style of work.

    13. Re:Issue really. by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

      That's really weird. My parents got a low end Netgear router years ago and it was adjustable. I never realized that it might not be on other routers. That's why I read slashdot.

    14. Re:Issue really. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Student housing tends to be steel and iron girder construction, anything more than 3 stories since ~70s (in the UK at least) has similar problems.

      As for insulation, it's a lot thinner and more predictable as it covers the area, it will reflect the signal around, but in a more controlled way, not reflect it once into a single odd direction. It does weaken wifi but it doesn't eliminate it to the same degree (from living in accommodation with both and without such insulation and being a radio ham operator.

      Finally due to power considerations especially of the mobile device and modulation techniques and the fact it's working over a higher range, GSM tends to be far more susceptible to such problems than wifi

    15. Re:Issue really. by xMrFishx · · Score: 1

      I figured it was a "feature" to prevent consumers flooding the surrounding areas with high transmission power, but thinking about it now, it could also be a EU vs US legislation thing, being a Brit here. Thats a guess mind you. I generally followed the idea that adjusting transmit power meant products could be refreshed with nothing more than a new edition (same model, new firmware) on the shelves, and that adjustable power was left to people who knew what they were doing and had expensive corporate kit. Seems I may have just been unlucky with what routers I've come across, though I have handled quite a few for various reasons and not seen any adjustable ones, though my last purchase was when N was in it's early draft stages, so that's about five years ago. Either way, that one's going in the bin. Information appreciated.

    16. Re:Issue really. by adolf · · Score: 1

      Metal lath (not "lathe") is fairly common wherever there's semi-old-school plaster.

      It gets tacked to the studs (whatever those studs might consist of), and then plaster (not sheetrock) is applied in semi-liquid form. After that, it's painted or whatever.

      I've got a lot of it in my house. It might be the cause of some dead spots I used to have with Wifi, but I haven't exactly made a study of it (it was simplest to just add another access point and consider the problem solved).

      You probably know this.

      As to OP's comment about using "metal mesh lathe" (sic) over top of metal studs "before you even get to think about putting sheetrock on," I have no idea WTF he's going on about. I've been involved with my share of construction (new, remod, residential, commercial, whatever), and I've never seen anything like that.

      The only time I've seen a layer of metal inside of a wall was when I was working in an x-ray room (and yes, it was very well-shielded indeed).

    17. Re:Issue really. by ewanm89 · · Score: 1

      Nah, I would say BT have that honour.

    18. Re:Issue really. by ewanm89 · · Score: 1

      Most routers on custom firmware can do this. It's just stock firmware doesn't often give access to the needed variables.

  26. Yay! 40 MHz N channels! by PolaRis75 · · Score: 1

    While cell phones not working in my house would be a little irritating, I would be very happy to have radio blocking on the outside walls - sure I couldn't use my wireless in the garden, but neighbors and passers-by wouldn't be able to use it either ... AND, most important of all, it would block out my neighbor's networks which would allow my AP to actually use 40 MHz channels and give me closer to the advertised speeds!

  27. i'd rather buy 2-3 more wifi bases by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    than spend $500 more in heating costs every year

    i for one welcome our new tin foil energy saving house overlords

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  28. Great! by WindBourne · · Score: 2

    Far less leakage, and less chance of home builders skipping putting in ethernet. All new homes should be wired and not counting on wifi to do the trick.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Great! by npsimons · · Score: 1

      Similar to my thoughts: this is great added security; after all, why would I want my neighbors (or anyone driving down the street) to be able to sniff WiFi packets or even Bluetooth? Sure, I may not be able to web surf in the garden, but maybe being disconnected every once and a while is a good thing. And if you really need cell reception inside your house (what, you mean your cell phone doesn't have WiFi?), you can always get a repeater.

  29. Really a Problem? by stewbacca · · Score: 1

    Here in Texas, the "shiny reflective material" is used to help keep electricity costs down in the Summer. I have a 2500 sq. ft. single story home built in 2009 and get WiFi throughout, no problems. I keep my wireless router deep in the walk-in closet of the master bedroom. Something tells me this isn't as big of a problem as the story is letting on to.

  30. can have your cake and eat it too by Chirs · · Score: 1

    It should be possible to make the material transparent in the radio spectrum but reflective in the visible/infrared spectrum. This would be the best of both worlds.

    1. Re:can have your cake and eat it too by SpiralSpirit · · Score: 2

      possible, surely. financially prohibitive? no demand? perhaps.

    2. Re:can have your cake and eat it too by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      Foil backed foam and has been used since the 70's, the foil does allow radio waves to be received,the simplest way to think of it is that the signal hits the foil and is then retransmitted by the foil. Faraday cages keep signals out by canceling the field with the opposite signal which is retransmitted from the opposite side and only work if they are continuous and grounded, they do not work in reverse. Coaxial cables have a shielding that protects the inner conductor from noise but the signal can still be observed from the outside.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    3. Re:can have your cake and eat it too by Methuseus · · Score: 1

      That doesn't tell you how hard it would be to make it that way though.

      --
      Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
  31. depends by synapse7 · · Score: 1

    Probably depends on the area and building styles / economic status. Homes around Northern MI are largely particle-board, I can't see that causing any hindrance to wireless signals.

  32. We call it sisalation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here in Aus, we call it sisalation, and have been using it in building since year dot. It does not stop you using wi-fi.

  33. Antenna by sycodon · · Score: 1

    Get one.

    Use it.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  34. Old hat. by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    Call someone that has aluminum siding and aluminum screens on their home as them how their home from 1950 that was resided in the 70's or 80's works for wifi to the garden or the grotto.. This is not new. Nor is it news to anyone that actually has a clue about Wifi or home building in general.

    Insulation boards have had foil backing for decades. a lot of other building products as well.

    It's just whiny rich people that notice after moving into their new McMansion. Because they are too damn cheap to buy a second AP for the back yard.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Old hat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You comment is contradictory.

      I think you will find that rich people who haven't earned their money would readily spend money to fix problems.
      Rich people who are "damn cheap" are people who have obviously worked hard for their money, and therefore deserve to whine.

      While I also hate rich people who do not deserve to be rich, there is nothing wrong with people who have earned their money complaining about being ripped off.

  35. Could be worse by HangingChad · · Score: 1

    It wouldn't be terribly difficult to set up a booster for the house. If a cell signal booster is the price for more energy efficient homes, that seems like a fair trade.

    We used to live in a steel house and would have to stand in front of the upstairs window to get a cell signal. It was pretty funny announcing to people they had to go upstairs to make a call.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:Could be worse by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      There's a tech called UMA, which allows cell phones to connect cell calls over a WiFi network. Only T-Mobile implemented it though, and almost none of their phones support it anymore (there was a brief period they tried to push it).

      Personally, I love the idea, because almost everyone has WiFi *anyhow*, so why not leverage that? Why have a second, special-purpose device like a femtocell?

      I don't know why, but when 3G phones came out, not a single 3G phone for a long time came with UMA support, and then I think the only one that did was one or two models of Blackberry.

      It's a shame - UMA is just a great idea.

    2. Re:Could be worse by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Yeah, except it was a huge money-loser for T-Mobile. They don't charge for UMA minutes if you pay $10 a month for the UMA unlimited feature. They recently yanked the ability to use it outside the US - now UMA calls are charged the same as wireless calls outside the US at like $1.29 a minute.

      With T-Mobile having been bought it will be a very short time indeed until it goes away entirely. Too much money being lost on it.

    3. Re:Could be worse by JSBiff · · Score: 1

      See, that was a decision of their marketting dept. There's nothing that says you have to give people unlimited minutes for UMA calls. I would have been happy to just get my normal plan benefits (e.g. free on nights/weekends, use my normal plan minutes during peak hours), just to get better reception, for free.

      I was just talking about the tech, not their plan (although that was cool too - and might have got them some customers if more phones supported it; but when almost none of their phones support that feature, it's not going to get them any new customers).

      I do agree that UMA will be killed off completely by ATT, but it's a shame. It was already killed of defacto by T-Mobile, to the extent that they stopped supporting the feature in new phones.

  36. Other issues with modern buildings and WiFi by frinkster · · Score: 1

    I live in a modern high-rise building in the middle of a dense downtown area. To comply with fire codes, all interior studs are metal - in fact almost nothing inside the building (besides furniture) will burn. This definitely affects my WiFi - I have my router in my living room and I have trouble getting a usable signal in my bedroom. My solution of course was to wire the place with ethernet and have multiple routers.

    On the other hand, I have floor-to-ceiling glass for about 40% of my exterior walls. Thus I see about 30 or 40 WiFi routers from neighboring buildings - with very good signal strength. It's a strange dynamic - it's hard to see nearby routers but distant routers are easy to see.

    1. Re:Other issues with modern buildings and WiFi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention that CBS (Concrete Block & Steel) has been popular for ages and is well documented to affect radio reception. Heck, I can't pick up any radio stations from my interior office at work.

  37. I'm building a house now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and the cost of wiring the whole house w/ cat6e is so low that it was a no-brainer.

    I haven't moved in yet, so I don't know how wifi reception will be, but with the ability to have a couple wifi repeaters spread around the house, I'm really not worried.

    In the grand scheme of things (the cost of a house), I don't really see the problem here.

  38. New invention by Wowsers · · Score: 1

    So they have now created a new invention, a house to act as a microwave oven. Quick, where are the patent lawyers.

    --
    Take Nobody's Word For It.
  39. Same goes for a lot of older homes by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

    Some houses use chicken wire with the lathe and plaster. Same effect. They have to answer their phones on the patio.

  40. Aren't most new houses wired? by Kevin+Stevens · · Score: 1

    I would think that most if not all new houses these days are wired up in each room for cable and ethernet/phone. Is this not the case? Obviously you still want wireless to work, as I constantly walk around my house with my phone and laptop, but for the most part these problems should be easy to mitigate.

    Personally I would be very wary about buying new construction that didn't have wiring to the rooms- who knows where else they may have cut corners!

  41. Maybe this was new, in the 1970's by rjejr · · Score: 1

    Early in the 1970's my father redid our living room. Before he put up the sheetrock he put up foil insulation. Our Christmas morning home videos looks like we are inside a spaceship. From outside the light was insane. Of course using those big old super 8 movie camera spotlights probably made things a lot brighter.

  42. Phones, tv and wifi by aedan · · Score: 1

    We moved from a '70s to a brand new house two years ago.

    My Elgato stopped working, the BT Homehub signal doesn't make it to the garden (the Apple TImeCapsule does) and my phone battery doesn't last as long as before.

    Other people moved into the street and said they wouldn't bother getting a land line so we see them standing in the front garden to make phone calls.

    Heating bills are lower.

  43. Old stucco by c · · Score: 2

    My last house was built in 1925, and covered in stucco. Newer stucco is usually some kind of latex goop and doesn't need much of a backing, but this old stucco was basically mortar and needed metal mesh to support it. In this case, it was a heavy diamond mesh like you find on outside stairs and whatnot. The guys who blew insulation into the walls from the outside just loved it...

    That being said, I never saw a significant problem with either cellular phone or wifi signals.

    --
    Log in or piss off.
  44. But you don't have any proof though, right? by Steneub · · Score: 0

    "could... unpredictable... potentially"

    Call me when there's an actual demonstrated problem. Maybe the new materials will act as an amplifier? The situation would be different from floorplan to floorplan and from one wifi antenna placement to the next. You can hem and haw all you want, but you don't know for sure until you field test.

  45. Stucco by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

    Houses with Stucco have this issue as well. Builders use a steel mesh to adhere the Stucco to the house which acts like a Faraday Cage.

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    1. Re:Stucco by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Houses with Stucco have this issue as well. Builders use a steel mesh to adhere the Stucco to the house which acts like a Faraday Cage.

      You mean a house with "fake" stucco walls and stick construction. If your house is block construction, like a large number of houses here in sunny Florida, you won't have this problem, because the steel mesh is unnecessary in this case.

    2. Re:Stucco by lazlo · · Score: 1

      I have no idea about stucco, but I know that doing plaster on block, it's at least reasonably normal to have a mesh attached to the block to help hold the scratch coat in place.

      I know when I was living in South Florida, most of the new construction houses were wood frame with fake stucco. Many older houses were actual CBC, but considering the weather, there may be a survivor bias at work there.

      But I do think it would be interesting to get some idea of the relative amount of EM interference from mylar-coated cladding, steel mesh for stucco, rebar used in CBC, and steel vs. wood studs. Sounds like a job for Mythbusters! (Well, probably not. Given the low likelihood that anything would explode, I doubt they'd do it.)

      --
      Pound! Bang! Bin! Bash! is this a shell script or a Batman comic?
    3. Re:Stucco by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          Actually, I've seen plenty of houses in Florida with stucco facades. On any that I've needed to cut through, I've always found the wire mesh. As I understand it, the mesh is there to give the stucco something to bind to. It can kind of stick to the blocks, but doesn't do it very well. It's nicer to have the stucco stay on, than for a ton of concrete to come falling off when the temperature or humidity changes.

          I agree, most houses in Florida are cement block, I'm sure there's a stack of reasons, beginning at "it's cheaper". It's stronger, quieter, and more durable in hurricanes. The stucco facade is put on so you don't have to see the ugly lines in the blocks.

          And (to discuss the original point), no I haven't noticed a decrease in cell, WiFi or other reception. I *have* seen signals blocked by sturdier things, like refrigerators and cars.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    4. Re:Stucco by operagost · · Score: 1

      My house is built of uncut field stone, and at least part of the stucco was done over wire mesh.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  46. I have the opposite problem by cinnamon+colbert · · Score: 1

    I live in Boston, in a crowded neighborhood of old houses. My new neighbors, up on the hill, have put in a super powerful wifi that drowns out the old G wireless point I have in the basement.
    I now have to go out and spend money to fix this
    PS: at most, I can see 8 of my neighbors, but one of my co workers say he can see more then 10 on a good day

    1. Re:I have the opposite problem by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

      Get them to put it on either channel 1 or 11 and put your AP on the other one. Seeing as this is a super-easy fix, they shouldn't have a problem with it, but if they do you could blow some smoke with some BS about the FCC guidelines for not interfering and broadcasting with really high-powered radios. They most likely aren't violating any FCC rules, but again, seeing as it's a 5-minute task to change the channel on the router, they'll hopefully be willing to do it.

    2. Re:I have the opposite problem by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      hehehahahaha - you actually would consider conversing with your neighbors?!?!

      Weirdo.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    3. Re:I have the opposite problem by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

      Heavens no... I'd just tape a note to their door while they're away...

      (Assuming I couldn't connect to the wireless network, log into the router with the default user/pass, and change the channel myself.)

  47. Good. by drolli · · Score: 1

    Good for Wifi. Will prevent pollution. I live in a large Condo complex and i see 50 WLANs at the same time. If 20 of them are active its going to reduce my WLAN transfer rate. If i see only 5 active at the same time, it will be much better.

    As a physicist: WLAN is not specified to go trough undefined materials. walls of houses are, in general, undefined materials. If you like good wlan coverage in your garden, then place an external antenna or at least an repeater close to the window (unless the window is also metal-coated...).

  48. Read carefully your contract by VincenzoRomano · · Score: 1

    There's no warranty the mobile phone will work inside buildings!

    --
    Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
    For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
    1. Re:Read carefully your contract by F34nor · · Score: 1

      Just got a Femtocell from At&satan and I am pretty happy with it so far. The interference from my wife yelling at me about poor cell phone reception is down 93.2%

    2. Re:Read carefully your contract by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just drilled a big hole in my kitchen wall and my reception bumped to 4 lines from almost 0. Everything comes at a price.

  49. Its insulation, and not new by BitZtream · · Score: 4, Informative

    Its just insulation. It goes on exterior walls to help form a heat boundary. Its not even a little bit new, the observer is just a really shitty observer and never noticed it being put into every building thats been built in the last 40 or so years at least. Example, my cheap little home built in 1977 has it.

    It doesn't go on interior walls, you don't generally insulate interior walls, as the air flow through open doors in your home and the fact that your duct system intentionally moves air into those rooms would defeat the point entirely.

    Some people do choose to insulate their interior walls for sound dampening, but not with foil backed insulation, they use cheaper insulation without it or specific insulation for sound, which is what we did when remodeling our living room to prevent sound from the TV/stereo from bothering people sleeping in other rooms.

    It won't effect your Wifi signal as its on the external walls only and no one would use it on interior walls (even if they wanted to insulate) because its more expensive and just a waste of money in those locations.

    If you can't get a signal between the first floor and second floor of your home it has almost nothing to do with insulation and the fact that the antennas used on wifi routers are designed to radiate horizontally from the antenna (perpendicular to its orientation). It would be, in almost every case, a complete waste of RF energy to broadcast a signal upwards from a WAP when for most cases there will be no one above it or below it that its supposed to get too.

    Finally ... it has VERY LITTLE EFFECT on the signal. My home is completely wrapped in it, walls and attic, and we sit on a slab, yet I still have no problem picking up and connecting to any wifi access point within 2 houses of me (and we aren't talking about town homes 10 feet from each other, at least 100-150 feet between homes), though its not like I'm getting full speed out of 802.11g with it, though my workshop, which is about 75 feet from my home will consistently get 10mb out of it, and it is insulated with brand new (built 3 years ago) foil backed insulation as well.

    Does it effect the signal, sure, everything does. Does it effect it enough to care about it over the massive energy savings for heating and cooling? No, not even a little.

    The home owner is likely to be none the wiser about the size of the wiring in his home either, and wether its really designed to be used like many of us where we have several machines in one room functioning as servers/routers/firewalls for our home networks drawing way more power than the home was designed to deliver to a single outlet. As a general rule, if you don't know what that shiny material is, there are far more important things in your home that you should learn about first if your worried about how your technology is going to be effected. Wiring of the home would be top on my list. Clean power is far more of a concern than insulation. Nothing worse than wiring thats too small for the job causing your power supplies or UPSes to continually be fighting surges and spikes due to turning off and on other equipment. Older homes with shared runs using 14 gauge wire to power multiple outlets are far more damaging and problematic than the insulation, they are also considerably more dangerous in a modern world where 10 amps simply isn't enough power for some home appliances at startup (vacuum cleaner, microwave, big plasma TVs). You really want 12 gauge as a minimum, with individual runs from the breaker box to EACH outlet, 10 gauge if you can afford it is a much better choice and far safer. Considering how little it effects the cost of a new build, you'd be an idiot if you were given the option and didn't take it.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    1. Re:Its insulation, and not new by Starvingboy · · Score: 2

      . You really want 12 gauge as a minimum, with individual runs from the breaker box to EACH outlet, 10 gauge if you can afford

      I'm as big a fan of Overkill as the next guy, but just think for a second how big your breaker panel would have to be if you had ONE breaker per outlet.

    2. Re:Its insulation, and not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a solid and accurate response - "Spot-On!" as they say. The #1 problem for signal range/reception is likely to be the EMI (electro-magnetic interference) generated by the current passing through the home wiring. This is going to propagate in 2 ways: Along the wire-runs in the house - as an electro-magnetic field surrounding every conductor - and as part of the "dirty power" delivered to any device not connected through a line conditioner. EMI filtering is one of the main differences between a line conditioner and basic surge protector.

      For anyone that doesn't know: Electricity passing through a conductor generates a magnetic field - it is this EMI that causes the alternator noise that is the bane of car stereo installers.

      As far as that ""highly reflective" material"...

      1. As stated - I am agreeing that the material is too thin to make any difference. Consider "sale prices" at Wal-Mart - what's the real difference between $499.99 and a "sale price" of $499.79??? At $500.00 the "savings" is insignificant - "Falling prices" my a**. That "tin foil like" material stopping Wi-Fi is like the levy stopping Hurricane Katrina (too soon? - sorry)

      2. That material isn't normally grounded and thus is even more insignificant.

      3. I need to check my wiring... Thanks for the reminder.

    3. Re:Its insulation, and not new by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      No doubt. With the NEC requirement of never having to go more than 1.8 meters for an outlet, that means an average of 7 outlets per bedroom (assuming 14x14' bedroom with an outlet in the closet.) 10 ea for living and dining room, and probably 6 for the kitchen, so for a 3bd/2ba that's about 60 for the upstairs alone. Habitable space in the basement, which means dens and playrooms, has the same requirement, so it'll probably be at least 3/4 as many downstairs, so let's call it 100 outlets. That breaker panel is going to be the size of a refrigerator and we haven't even started wiring in lights or major appliances.

      Dedicated 20 amp lines to the refrigerator and microwave and a couple places in the living room, where you expect an A/V setup to be installed, make a lot of sense. But past that, two circuits to each bedroom, plus a circuit for the lights so you don't end up in the dark if you trip a breaker, is going to handle anything but mad scientists. Running 12ga everywhere is a good idea and not that expensive. But breaker-per-outlet is infeasible.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    4. Re:Its insulation, and not new by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      For me, its the same size now as it was before I rewired. Mind you, I had a large, mostly empty box before hand, and now its almost entirely full.

      However, the breaker box sits, out of sight in a closet, covered and for the most part, entirely invisible, so who actually CARES how big it is?

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    5. Re:Its insulation, and not new by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Your planning for today, I plan for tomorrow. I rewired my home because it was built in the late 70s, with 14 gauge wire, and multiple rooms on a single line/breaker.

      12 gauge isn't enough currently, thats only rated for a total of 15 amps (local code) and its rather inefficient to put 15 amps on it, the wires will heat up and you're get voltage drop for no other reason than being cheap.

      14 gauge is (by local code) is for 10 amps or less (and connected to normal wall outlets, 2 slots, 1 round ground).
      12 gauge and 15 amp outlets are 2 slots, one with a T shape, and a ground pole, this is what every house now days should have in it as a minimum as we continue to draw more and more electrical power.
      10 gauge (by local code, only allowed to carry 20 amps, though realistically at that point you can safely, though slighly less efficiently carry 30) is the only thing you should be installing.

      Yes, our electrical code here requires larger than normal wire compared to most of the country, partially because of the reality learned by living in a technology hub where people regularly burned their houses down by over loading circuits that were barely capable of providing what they were rated for.

      You may not mind brownouts when you turn on the vacuum or microwave, but I do.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    6. Re:Its insulation, and not new by adolf · · Score: 1

      I find your numbers to be wacky and useless.

      Are you, perchance, not in the US?

    7. Re:Its insulation, and not new by DTemp · · Score: 1

      You have in your mind that you need a certain gauge to achieve a certain result. Based on my experiences as an electrician, your expectations are not what matches reality.

      You can (and I have) run 15A continuously 24/7 over a decent run of 14 AWG wire with little voltage loss, and definitely no warming of the wire or connections. This includes momentary current bursts for motor startups and the like. 12 AWG is good for 20A, 10 AWG is good for 30A, 8 AWG is good for 40A, and 6 AWG is good for 50A.

      The great-grandparent (child of your original post) is most correct: run some dedicated 12 AWG 20A circuits for appliances (dryers and hot water heaters need 30A, electric ranges 50A), home theatre AV, computer rooms, a couple for the kitchen counter (which is typically mandatory in code), and a couple per room, and you are set. Yes, set for the near future. No one is saying putting multiple rooms on a 15A breaker is ok.

    8. Re:Its insulation, and not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Affect? Effect? what's the difference?

    9. Re:Its insulation, and not new by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Panel per room ought to do the trick.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  50. I have the fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A napalm strike, followed by a B-52 raid using HE, and these problem
    houses simply won't be a problem any more.

    I'll call SAC and get them on it right away.

                                                - General Buck Turgidson

    1. Re:I have the fix by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

      Just nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

  51. Real-world experience by SierraQ · · Score: 1

    My house has this stuff--roof only. I can tell you that it completely blocks FM and AM and TV, and significantly reduces mobile phone signals. However, wifi internally works just fine, which is to be expected. I don't see a problem except for those who like to use wifi outside... or are sharing with their neighbors... or for neighbors who have decided that you should be sharing and therefore they needn't ask... Wifi isn't the issue--it's mobile phones. But even that can be fixed with a repeater unit. They sell them for $100. Don't know how well they work, however. In any case, the savings in utility bills, especially in hotter areas, is worth these minor inconveniences.

  52. Re:Yay! 40 MHz N channels! by PPH · · Score: 1

    But the guys in the black van parked in front of your house are having trouble with their surveillance gear. That foil not only messes up WiFi and other radio, it screws up millimeter radar and thru wall infrared imaging. And the mind control beams are less effective as well.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  53. Mother-In-Law Phonecall Barrier (tm) by hattig · · Score: 1

    I guess sales of home microcells for people's mobile phones will be going up then...

    (except for those that the MiL Barrier is a real positive feature, worth living in radio silence for...)

  54. Lath and plaster. by F34nor · · Score: 1

    Yeah jackass my house is made from freaking chicken wire. Mylar, lol I got a god damn Faraday cadge.

  55. can be considered an advantage, depending... by amn108 · · Score: 1

    you say it like it's a bad thing!

  56. Ive had this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I had a few customers whose WiFi wouldn't work in any other room but the same one as the router, no signal, nothing,
    but as soon as i was in the same room as the router whoosh, 5 bars of signal max strength? puzzling.

    turns out, on some buildings behind the walls (and ceilings) plaster is a chicken wire like mesh that the plasterers use to make the plaster bond to the wall better, making the room RF wise a basic Faraday cage
    other buildings have had dual aluminum backed plasterboard (for energy conservation) in the non brick walls again making a weak (than the metal mesh) Farady cage

    Great for Plasterers and energy bills, not so much for >2.4ghz microwaves

  57. My place was built in '82 by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 2

    I'm not worried about the wi-fi because I have a wireless router. But the cell phone reception is horrendous. I take a few steps outside and it's fine. While I was fixing the place up I had poked some holes in the walls and found metal beams inside. The place is like a giant Faraday cage. The fact that it's the bottom floor of a three-story condo doesn't help either.

    I just spent $250 (it was on sale, too. Normally it's $400) on a cell phone signal booster. I hope it helps.

    1. Re:My place was built in '82 by hawguy · · Score: 1

      I'm not worried about the wi-fi because I have a wireless router.

      Wouldn't you have less to worry about Wifi if you did *not* have a wireless router?

      But the cell phone reception is horrendous. I take a few steps outside and it's fine. While I was fixing the place up I had poked some holes in the walls and found metal beams inside. The place is like a giant Faraday cage. The fact that it's the bottom floor of a three-story condo doesn't help either.

      Lots of new construction uses metal studs instead of wood, but it doesn't (usually) kill cell phone & wifi because the studs are not in a grid with gaps less than the wavelength of cell & wifi.

      Even my 900Mhz Nextel iDEN phone gets good signal in my server room (which has metal studs in all 4 walls).

  58. This does have a serious side by pearl298 · · Score: 1

    in that WiFi signals from inside the house cannot be intercepted from the driveway or further away. If you can't hear it you can't intercept it!

  59. Marketing ploy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The 'shiny' material is Tyvek (a DuPont product) or some knock-off. It is a vapor barrier, not insulation and it is a mesh of high-density polyethylene fibers. They make is shiny so that buyers will think it is some kind of giant Christmas present. Apparently, black felt has very low curb appeal. Most insulation is fiberglass and foil is infrequently used as facing for fiberglass insulation because it requires a 'reflective' airspace to be effective, as it does when bonded to polystyrene. And the foil costs more, so unless there is a site-specific need (limited wall thickness?) it does not get used.

  60. Maybe by kyuubiunl · · Score: 1

    PC Pro should stick to computers. House wraps are not new. They're not even new in the last twenty years. Would you like higher heating bills, or maybe having to put a repeater near a window if you want wifi outside. Though why you would even give a shit if you get wifi outside your house is beyond me.

  61. aluminum siding by brausch · · Score: 1

    I've got aluminum siding and it really does mess up cell phones and also things like wireless weather stations.

    --
    "Almost every wise saying has an opposite one, no less wise, to balance it." - George Santayana
  62. So what...PLC then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PLC is always there to help out

  63. Placing near window nope - Passive Repeateter by Sami+Lehtinen · · Score: 1

    So? What's new? Our building got renewed about 6 years ago. At that point we found out exactly what they say. Cellphone signal was gone for two of the three operator available here. Reception was weak for the only available operator. Out at yard all operators gave full reception!

    Reason? Thermal radiation insulation using very thin aluminium foil. It's not only in walls also windows are protected. Open window and placing phone just about 5 cm outside, full reception. Close window and place phone 5 cm inside, no reception at all. It's pretty clear situation.

    Solution: Buying two mobile antennas and and about 20 cm of cable. Drill hole through the wall, Place another antenna outside, insert cable, place another antenna inside. That's it. Now you have passive pass through for the signal.

    P.S. This solution works very well for cellars and basements too, if you want to have signal where it isn't normally available.

  64. Radio propagation in buildings by bwalzer · · Score: 1
    This is hardly a new issue. Metal lath has been popular for exterior stucco for some time now. Metal lath is popular for interior plaster walls. Perhaps the use of drywall has spoiled everyone.

    The signals can come in the windows and bounce down the halls. Inside radio propagation has and will always be somewhat problematic. Just run some damn wires if it is a problem...

  65. Baby Formula by Hydian · · Score: 1

    Having done wireless installs in warehouses, I can tell you that baby formula is the worst (liquid in metal cans stacked in boxes.) We'd do our thing and have good coverage. Later on we'd get a call saying that they have a huge hole in the coverage somewhere. We'd go back and find that they stacked baby formula right next to the AP. It was by far the most challenging item to deal with.

  66. Potential moneymaker here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People could advertise repeaters harder than before, listing this as a huge problem.

    Of course, they tend to be filled with useless jargon. Useless from the perspective of your average person who doesn't know left from blue.

  67. Barry Collins is added to my list by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Barry Collins is now added to my list of ignored tech know-nothing moron writers. Right up their with John C. Dvorak.

  68. New houses shouldn't need wifi anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude, if you've got a new house, put copper or fiber in the damn walls. Every new house should be built with this stuff.

    I would sell my left nut to be able to throw all my wifi gear away. Even 100M ethernet would beat the crap out of 802.11n since I'm unfortunate enough to have neighbors who also use wifi. But I'm stuck with this shit, because this 1930s house has what seems to be rock-solid walls.

    Wifi is the last resort when for some reason, you can't use otherwise massively-superior cables. Boo hoo, you have a modern house so you can run cables and also can't downgrade to wireless. You poor thing!

  69. i want one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How very cool. I have dreamed of living in a Faraday Cage! Now, I just need a bank of opto-isolators for the outside antenna array and one of those small Japanese nuclear reactors for an internal power source.

  70. Metal roofs are worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My parent changed from shingle to a metal roof for durability. What they found was that it killed WiFi throughout the house. 20 feet is about the maximum distance (line of sight or not) they can go from the AP. I'm guessing it has something to do with reflectivity of the waves in the house?

  71. Roof radiant shielding = no Wi-Fi interference by Radojevic · · Score: 1

    We have metallic radiant shielding on our roof decking. We have not noticed any Wi-Fi signal variance since replacing our roof, which included the addition of the radiant shielding.

  72. California automobile windows next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've heard that CA has mandated loe-e metalized window glass for heat reduction and energy savings. Will this have an impact on in-car mobile use? Probably.

  73. Plastic pipes... by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    What freaks me out the most about new homes is the switch from copper to plastic for water pipeing.

    Regardless of baseless speculation of TFA..wired ethernet = less latency, better reliability, more bandwidth, less headaches and no driveby/neighbor issues... If it is a new home take some time to string some cat5 before the drywall goes up.. You can get 1000' rolls of the stuff for less than $70 online. Nothing to loose.

    1. Re:Plastic pipes... by ePhil_One · · Score: 1

      What freaks me out the most about new homes is the switch from copper to plastic for water pipeing.

      Most the plastic pipe is actually better than copper. The old black pipe is bad of iron and actively rusts after a bit. Biggest issue is plastic sewer pipes, they are noisier than the old cast iron, and don't even get me started on clay sewer lines used in the ground.

      Of course, there's at least 3 "modern" plastic pipes, PVC, CPVC, and PEX, I plan to go PEX (Cu is way to costly now), but admittedly older plastics could do bad things over a very long period of exposure, maybe. Talk to folks whose copper pipes need to be replaced after 10 years due to "pinhole" leaks which they wish their builder had used, or those who had their pipes stolen for scrap...

      --
      You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
  74. Might be a good idea ? by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

    In my appartment, I'm getting more than 20 wifi signals. My dumb-ish phone often tries to log into other people's network instead of mine because the signal is stronger.

    I'd be happy for my signal not to parasite other peoples'... and reciprocally.

    --
    The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
  75. Why does it matter? by toastar · · Score: 1

    Shouldn't new houses be wired with cat5?

    1. Re:Why does it matter? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      No, because it's been obsolete for ages, and isn't optimal for Gigabit Ethernet with long runs (it works fine for short runs, but inside a house's walls, you're likely to have rather long lengths). They should use Cat6. Fiber would be better, but it seems like fiber's dying out for indoor use, probably because Cat6 is simpler and cheaper: you don't have to be stuck with pre-made cables and can easily make your own, unlike fiber which requires a lot of skill to add connectors properly.

    2. Re:Why does it matter? by Onuma · · Score: 1

      Fiber really doesn't take that much skill to terminate. With a QuickCam kit, you can make a single termination in a minute or two on multi- or single-mode FO. It does, however, require relatively expensive equipment -- purchases which do not justify only using them for a single home network. Some of the diamond-wheel cutters used can be in excess of $1500, but high-quality connections require better tools to maintain.
      The cable itself is relatively cheap. It is the equipment and transceivers which get very expensive, very quickly.

      --
      What else can happen when an unstoppable force collides with an immovable object?
    3. Re:Why does it matter? by unitron · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't new houses be wired with cat5?

      The thing that make the mysterious future mysterious is we don't know what's going to come along. New houses should have lots and lots of (low-voltage wiring) conduit installed. Also it should be wired for twice as much electrical power as you think it'll need, with a lot more outlets than you think you'll need.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    4. Re:Why does it matter? by unitron · · Score: 1

      Make make makes.

      (I don't need a preview button, I need a preview klaxon)

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  76. Nothing New... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you work in the home automation industry this is nothing new for you. Most of our clients demand to be able to roam around on their laptops in their 20,000 sq/ft WiFi killing homes - something that can't be accomplished with off the shelf equipment. We're constantly installing commercial grade WAPs and cell phone repeating systems in these large homes.

  77. My 75 year old house has plank construction! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm glad I live in New England. They don't use the foil, even in new builds. My house is an old expanded Cape. haha. Plank construction. When we put roof vents in we went through many circular saw blades. It's much stronger than the post beam / plywood construction you see now. My planks are 1" thick and 8" wide

  78. easy way to fix the garden issue by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

    if you have this problem then (im assuming you are or have access to a handyman).

    1 run a conduit from the house to a nice spot near/ in the graden

    2 get your hands on a router and a nice secure enclosure
    (should be more or less watertight and insulated)

    3 run a power lead and cat6 down the conduit and connect your inside router and the new one in the garden

    4 cover the enclosure with a gnome bench or something
    (don't block any vent holes of course)

    5 Profit!

    --
    Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
  79. And Keeps the Snoops Away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    by cutting down on both infrared and electronic surveillance. This is a _good_ thing.

  80. spray on stucco by Adam+Appel · · Score: 1

    I think spray on stucco would be a much worse issue since it often uses a wire mesh as the form. Faraday cage?

    --
    They come in the dark, only in the darkest.
  81. PC Magazine discovers the vapor barrier by Animats · · Score: 1

    Right. That's a vapor barrier, which prevents air from leaking in and out. Some are aluminum foil, and some are Tyvek (paper over Mylar film.) The concept is decades old. It's rare to put a vapor barrier in an interior wall, though insulation between an unheated garage and the rest of the building is normal.

    Unless you have conductive windows, it's not going to block cell phone reception or in-house WiFi much. If you have too much house for one WiFi base station, there are WiFi boosters which forward packets.

  82. If Only... by gawd666 · · Score: 1

    If only they made all homes out of high quality materials as such! Nowadays, you're lucky if they use plywood for exterior walls; since minimum grade does not require the builder to do so, it's very unlikely you'll see a lot of houses being built with this reflective material.

  83. Maybe a good thing.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At most, this situation would increase the occurrence of multipath, which is normally a bad thing for 802.11-2007 devices (a/b/g). But along comes 802.11n-2009 and spatial streams (taking *advantage* of this signal characteristic via spatial diversity). Long story short, this multipath actually ends up working to 802.11n's advantage. Problem solved. Next.

  84. Not just the newer ones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My older house (1945) has a lot of walls that are made out of a metal sheet covered in rock or stucco or something. I usually have to go sit in the same room with the router. Defeats the purpose of wifi altogether.

  85. Please obtain some data BEFORE... by cyn1c77 · · Score: 1

    ...stating that the insulation is a problem.

    The article never actual states that the insulation has been shown to interfere with WiFi. It just says "might" and "maybe" a lot.

    This is an example of the typical shitty reporting being published nowdays. Next time, sit down and look at the wavelength and the penetration depth into the foil. Then do an actual test with the insulation and a wifi router BEFORE publishing the article. PC Pro should be embarrassed.

  86. New houses should be wired by maiden_taiwan · · Score: 1

    Anyone building a new house, who doesn't wire it with CAT-6 or similar while the walls are open, is nuts.

    I wired my existing house (built in 1899) and have never regretted the expense. (When's the last time you ever heard, "Shit, the wired is down"?)

  87. Way ahead of you all! by pubwvj · · Score: 0

    I'm way ahead of you tin foil hattists! My house has a tin foil hat! Check out:

    http://flashweb.com/blog/2007/01/house-wrapped.html

    http://flashweb.com/blog/2006/12/cap-sealed-on-tight.html

    Since the foil is on the outside we have no trouble with WiFi interference for our computers which are all inside the house. No problems with reflection and the signal goes right through the concrete walls, interestingly.

    http://flashweb.com/blog/2007/06/transparently-wireless.html

  88. Added bonus !!! by FragHARD · · Score: 1

    Also this foil wrap converts wifi signals into heat... albeit a small amount thereby reducing the amount of time your furnace runs!!!!

    --
    FragHARD or don't frag at all
  89. Barriers to wi-fi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and older homes or buildings with metal lath and plaster. Going just two rooms away is like crossing the street and going 50 feet away. I'm already planning new placement of my wi-fi router/modem. Verizon (yeah, sure, FiOs) won't give me equipment with any version beyond "g", so my MacBook's "n" potential is suffering. We rent, so we cannot modify the structure, nor install wiring of any kind in or out, but the landlord is amenable to some changes like re-routing the Verizon cabling. Interestingly (to me), the MacBook performs much better than the (Verizon) Droid in this area. Hmmm.

  90. Not Wifi, but by Celestialwolf · · Score: 1

    I've seen something similar to this with cell phones when I'm at my parents' house. The Wifi works fine since it's within the house already, but cell phone reception there is terrible. I blame the metallic "sheets" that were inserted all through the inside of the roof.