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Apple: "We must Have Comprehensive Location Data"
An anonymous reader writes "Apple's iPhone 3G, iPhone 3GS, the iPhone 4, and iPad models are keeping track of consumers whereabouts. Mac computers running Snow Leopard and even Windows computers running Safari 5 are being watched. But the question is why? 'To provide the high quality products and services that its customers demand, Apple must have access to the comprehensive location-based information,' Apple says."
Your users or world governments?
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Bullshit!
Still no answer to why they need that information.
I don't think I'm the only one that has a problem with Apple only saying: "Hey guy, you know, just trust us!"
Old quote bolted onto new news.
"In June 2010, Congressmen Edward J. Markey, D-Mass., and Joe Barton, R-Texas wrote a letter to Apple... ...In response the company's general counsel Bruce Sewall wrote a letter... ..."To provide the high quality products and services that its customers demand, Apple must have access to the comprehensive location-based information," Sewall told Congress in the letter."
This article is referencing a reply Apple wrote on June 2010.
Two uses for that data:
1. Advertisements
2. Police
and of course the 3rd one that Apple do not want to think about:
3. Thieves can use it, to know when your house is empty.
It is OK to keep a log of the devices whereabouts... on the device. It is not OK to transfer that data to another entity without explicit permission of the devices owner... and better ask one time too often for that permission...
Jesus (appropriate on Easter Sunday) let it rest already.
Obviously many apps for the iPhone REQUIRE location information because that's the whole point of the app. Of course users want location services to be turned on when they are doing things like checking a map, browsing for restaurants, using real estate apps, etc. I also like my images to be geo-tagged. It's a feature I want. If you feel differently, then click the "don't allow" button when prompted.
Next non-story, please.
aside from using gps or other applications which logically require the use of location data, i'm not seeing the need for constant logging.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
So that we can serve ya'll up a crapload of iAds.
My apps don't need to know where I was last year.
If they're monitoring Windows systems via Safari, what about people with iTunes installed? Surely, by far, that's the most prevalent piece of Apple software on non-Apple platforms. Consequently, it would be the best means by which to gather data on customers. To be honest, I'd always thought I was being a little bit paranoid to so studiously avoid installing Apple products. I guess I was wrong.
Apple is doing it for the users regardless if they want it or not. Why not give them the ability to purge the data let them delete or purge the data regardless if they want it or not. It could be simple option somewhere that does not take away from the pristine user experience.
I call bullshit on the whole thing anyway. A database of where I was last week/month/year has very little benefit to advertisers. Any benefit it does have is far overshadowed by the users personal privacy of having that data available to Apple and whoever else can access that info. What if my bank account balance was available to them, sure, it would help advertisers but what is the downside to my privacy to give that info up?
The users do not want this.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
But why on earth is that information kept? They could easily just dump old information, I'm thinking maybe 24hours. And phone owners should be able to turn this feature on or off as they please!
In a world without fences and walls, who needs gates and windows?
And those apps require that all location data be recorded and saved to a file all the time?
Apple should have said what this really is about: Your iDevice can't determine its position by using the MAC addresses of nearby WiFi points unless Apple knows the locations of those WiFi points. And Apple's servers can't tell your iDevice where it is right now, unless the iDevice gives them the information that Apple's servers need to determine the location of your iDevice.
I wonder if all those people who helped OpenStreetMap are aware that OpenStreetMap knows the exact location where they were when they collected the data.
On the other hand, there is a website know where you can enter the MAC address of a router, and it will give you the location of that router, based on data on Google's servers. I hope Apple doesn't allow the same thing. I would hope even more that Google would put a stop to this. According to what Apple says, this is a black box: Only when the location software in the iPhone OS asks for the information about routers that are physically nearby will it receive location information. And in that case, anyone with a working GPS could have the same information anyway, so this is no privacy breach.
OK Government, for god sake protect us from this.
I have protected myself from this: I don't have or use any Apple product or service. Why would I need government for that?
You'd have a point if Apple held a monopoly. They don't.
I am fine with such apps making use of my current location. After asking me nicely, that is. And all apps on the iPhone do that: the first time (or 2 times) you use them you'll get a popup asking permission to use the current location. That is not quite the same thing as the phone tracking my location without my knowledge, and tracking that location over time to boot.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Haven't all Apple drones been outfitted with anal probes anyway?
I will concede the debate that permanently logged location information is required to run the features consumers want. I think it's false, and I think it's about iAds, but I'll concede it.
However, the lack of encryption or even simple hashing on this database is inexcusable. Unencrypted copies stored on every computer an iOS device syncs to! Inexcusable, irresponsible, sloppy software. A product which flings around my private data that way is a broken product, regardless of which features it offers. This is a stalkers dream. This will appear in every divorce court (That database is jointly owned property!). This will be used to bully and out gay college roommates (Physical access to your desktop? Yup). This will be used to keep tabs on employees work habits (Have iTunes on a work computer? Burned).
Apple made terrible software, and they are now informing us that they will continue to do so.
You were silly for ever sing their phone. I'd imagine that /etc/hosts can cure these issues for their laptops.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
But why on earth is that information kept? They could easily just dump old information, I'm thinking maybe 24hours. And phone owners should be able to turn this feature on or off as they please!
You post on Slashdot and can't think of a reason why? iPhones with GPS help updating Apple's database by reporting precise information about nearby routers to Apple's database. Now you don't want your phone to report the same information over and over and over again. Like my phone sending exactly where my neighbours' routers are every five minutes. And all the routers on my way to work twice every day. So how do you avoid this? You keep a list of known locations that you have sent, and don't send that information again.
Now maybe the developer who wrote the code should have thought of the paranoia, sheer stupidity, and sometimes hatred of the public, and kept the information somehow different, for example with some hashcode. But apparantly he wasn't paranoid enough himself and just wrote code to get the job done.
One rotten Apple spoils the whole barrel.
Time to toss the barrel!
It's called "quote mining". The explanation* for the location data is really quite straightforward. Apple isn't doing anything here that isn't also being done by Google, only the method varies.
*pdf warning
Caveat Utilitor
That is all.
Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
Obviously many apps for the iPhone REQUIRE location information because that's the whole point of the app.
They need to know my current location. Period. My every step for the past six months, not so much.
Not to say I can't think of uses that do need to record your movements (apps like jogging logs come to mind), but those don't apply to the vast majority of people and, once installed, can do their own - user initiated - tracking.
If you feel differently, then click the "don't allow" button when prompted.
Does the iPhone actually have such a button (in general, not just relating to tagging pictures)? If so, I would agree with you that this amounts to nothing but clueless end-users. I do not suspect that as the case, however.
Bernie Madoff only needed peoples money to ensure they got the most potential for their investments.
Where's the preference which says "please don't store my information forever, and don't send it to Apple so that they can store it forever + give it to any other business partner (including the police for a profiling database) who they decide would like to know where I've been."? Besides, there's no way to disable all location information, as a cell phone will be connected to a tower pretty much all the time, which identifies your location down to within a couple of miles. And this database, if you've read the articles, is a list of cell phone towers and relative signal strengths - which the new app demonstrates can be used for mapping where you've been.
Yes, the cell company has this information. I agreed to that when I bought my phone (which isn't an iPhone, BTW, but let's pretend it is for this). I even agreed to let apps access real-time location information. I did not, however, agree to have my phone store historical location data in a way that any other app can access, nor did I agree to send that information to the phone's manufacturer who has *no* legitimate use for that data.
You'd have to give Apple the data for them to do that.
Unlike your cell carrier, Apple isn't keeping tabs on where you've been. The data is being stored on the device, and on the computer it's sync'd with. Nowhere else.
"We live in a global world" - Harvey Pitt, former Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman
Does anybody know if webOS does this? What is the least evil phone operating system out there now Symbian has been buried at the crossroads?
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
So your argument is that since one group does something bad, then another group can do that too? That makes you a fanboi.
who to say that data is not being uploaded to apple?
I couldn't care less if Apple, a private investigator, or the US government knew my precise location 24/7. I'm not cheating on my wife, I'm not wanted by the FBI, and I'm not hiding from the IRS. So why would I give a shit?
You're obviously a moron so no amount of logic is going to change your mind. After all the information is already out there and you've chosen to ignore it so far.
Once everyone is logged and cataloged then police don't have to do their jobs anymore. Defense will change from "innocent until proven guilty" to "guilty until proven innocent based on a preponderance of the evidence". It has already happened, the most famous being finger prints. Finger prints are unique but matches are usually based on a few key markers. There have been plenty of cases where paper pushing monkeys blindly accept these key markers in cases to convict people. They had to hire professionals at their own expense to fight the system.
I just hope your iPhone whereabouts a linked to a high profile murder with no other suspects. The police will be pressured to get a conviction and with no other leads they will ride you like a $12 hooker trying to get you to confess... guilty or not. Sure you will most likely be found innocent, but that's after thousands of dollars in legal bills and having your like turned upside down.
The police government employees AND they're lazy. I wouldn't want them having this information. It's probably the first database they'll mine for leads rather than getting off their asses.
I guess if you need it you need it. There we go. Good thing I don't need an iPhone.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
How about a simpler solution: DON'T BUY if you don't like it!
Next computer and phone will not be a mac then. /previous Apple customer.
I'm sorry, but your response pretty much proves that you are full of shit. A *TRUE* Apple customer would not respond the way you did, so I call "bullshit" on your post. I do not believe you own *any* Apple products.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
So Apple is beginning to reply over this blackeye. Excellent. Other posters have asked "who is the customer?" and that is a perfectly legitimate question. There ought at least have been some sort of consumer opt-out ala "DO_NOT_TRACK".
But beyond that, even granting _arguendo_ legitimacy to targetted advertising, what possible useful purpose do the detailed timestamps serve? A file with locations (when different from previous) would be equally as useful. Timestamps are for tracking & snooping, not local service advertising. If that were even ethical.
This argument is relatively important to Apple -- they might well be accused of "unauthorized access to computing systems" (aka cracking) unless they can show the tracking is somehow essential to the access they have been authorized (OS & app services). Just because they're a mfr/OS vendor does not grant them automatic permission to do what they want. The law is not written that way, and penalizes those whose use exceeds the owner's authorization.
Who is to say it is? That's a pretty wild assumption.
The creators of the 'iPhoneTracker' app (Alasdair Allan and Pete Warden) which analyses the data stored and represents it visually on a map have done some extensive research into this and have found no evidence that the data is transferred across the network to Apple, or anyone else.
That's not to say that I feel comfortable about the data being stored for so long in the first place, but suggesting that it's being collected and stored on Apple's servers needs at least a shred of evidence before I'd take that suggestion seriously.
"We live in a global world" - Harvey Pitt, former Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman
You're not allowed to be okay with it. The only acceptable opinion is the hivemind opinion that this is pure inexcusable evil.
Using apps like Little Snitch, it's trivial to block the server requests (which happen about once a day) that the OS is making when it tries to 'phone home'.
They actually come in groups of three, including iphone-wu.apple.com, location.apple.com or something of that ilk.
This is obviously much more of an issue on any iOS device, where the user has little to no control of what's taking place behind the fancy window dressing, and for which no such firewall is made available for purchase through Apple's app store that I know of.
Anyway, for a computer that's staying in one place, a case could be made for the lack of need to know it is staying there all the time. Butt off my activities unless you give me the opt-in choice to be the one that decides whether to provide your company with this information or not. In fact, it could be argued that for home computers the only use for this sort of stuff is targeted advertising somewhere down the road, once users have accepted the idea that being tracked is normal.
That is exactly my worry too, government workers don't think a criminal would be smart enough to turn off/leave at home/not have a smart phone. Those that do have a smart phone and simply drive/walk by a crime scene will be screwed. Not to mention if someone wanted to frame you cloning of your sim card or borrowing of your phone would be a great way to manufacture evidence that you were near the scene.
His argument is that if someone else does it, it's NOT bad.
Further, I'm sure he would posit that Apple is trustworthy, as is Google, so it's no big deal to wear a tracking device for them.
"We must know. We will know."
-- David Hilbert
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
The difference is Google is up front about it and allows you to control what data you let them keep. https://www.google.com/dashboard/?hl=en
Does Apple? Where are the settings that control this info on Apple's site?
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because I think the average user of these devices is too stupid to care about his privacy. Those of us who do care do not and will not use these devices. Surely there is a daemon app out there which will either wipe this file and keep it wiped, or plant bogus data in it.
You are a known troll but I'll respond anyway; Apple users CAN get better. For me it took the insult that was the Quadra when PC users were getting real processors and not something that came out of a cereal box. I mean, the 68040 would have been a really righteous upgrade to me back when I had a 68020 Amiga... And instead of getting with the times right away, maybe demanding Motorola price-shrink the '060, they instead took DAMN NEAR FOREVER to bring out PowerPC machines, most of which did not conform to any standard at first, and most of the subsequent ones did not conform to any standard well, in spite of there being two fairly credible ones to pick from. And when they DID come out they were INSANELY EXPENSIVE.
I also used to be a Sony fanboy, but then they killed the Dreamcast. That only made me doubtful. Then they killed Lik-Sang. Now I want Sony to roast in hell. If I'd gotten Sony rootkitted I would probably be extra offended, but I can't remember the last time I bought anything from Sony Records. I know it's weird, but I like talent.
I can easily believe that Apple will lose customers over this particular event. A lot of people just buy their kit because you get tolerable service and nice cases, which in a laptop is a really big deal since you're holding the case all the time. These people are not in the majority, of course.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I agree with you in general, and I think a lot of the paranoia over privacy is overblown or even harmful. But there are legitimate reasons why location privacy is a good idea. The standard examples are abusive spouses, stalkers, closeted homosexuals in hostile territory, and nosy employers, and I'm sure there are a lot more. Those are all real problems, and none of them are going to disappear in the lifetime of a consumer electronics device.
Visit the
Wow, what a powerful use of the jump to conclusions mat. You just did the equivalent of "think of the children".
If your roommate would rummage your computer to determine if you are gay, they'd rummage your other personal effects which they also have access to and find out anyway.
And if company I work for is the type to keep tabs on me, I wouldn't sync my iPhone with my work computer, even if I did have iTunes on it. And if I did sync to my computer there wouldn't I check the "encrypt iPhone backups" box?
This is sloppy software, but your scare tactics are sloppy too.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Right. That should be eliminated.
F**king fascists.. I could understand if there was an opt-in/out...
They're just fascists...
I don't usually agree with calling someone a moron whether they are or not but in this case you are right to point it out.
We all have something to hide. We don't live free lives. Our freedom is a compromise between what we want and what everyone else wants. The trouble is that the rich and powerful have a hugely disproportionate influence on the nature of that compromise and the rules are heavily skewed in favour of their sleight of hand.
Databases and the technology to gather the data which fills those systems with references which can be associated with individuals skew the system still further in their favour and the speed with which those changes are happening is increasing. I don't see any organisation which is effectively fighting back and 'morons' like the one you responded to just muddy the waters with their thick headed remarks.
Or, jailbreak. Nothing wrong with the hardware, after all. Or, probably nothing wrong with the hardware that isn't also wrong with all the competition. Jailbreak it, and make it do what you want, instead of the people who used to own it making it do what they want.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Android stores the same data, they just have a shorter cache duration. Ask Google if you must know.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
So Google gets some wifi packets and the DOJ steps in. But because there is a contract here they aren't going to do anything? I thought there were rules about not being able sign a contract to sell yourself into slavery and the like in this country. Apparently something has changed.
Yeah, but they do.. You may or may not find out about it later, but there's not a hell of a lot you can do. All networked devices (especially wireless) are inherently insecure in that fashion and they always will be. The best you can do is fill the system with chaff, which actually can be very effective.
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
I not Iran u have to worry for...Apple itself might use it to blackmail and/or intimidate you...
Knowing exactly where and when you are is a good start to track a person in his private life...think that they might get your emails passwords, your bank account with the iPry app and BOOM!, you're just a pawn in their hands.
Just sad...
You post on Slashdot and can't think of a reason why? iPhones with GPS help updating Apple's database by reporting precise information about nearby routers to Apple's database. Now you don't want your phone to report the same information over and over and over again. Like my phone sending exactly where my neighbours' routers are every five minutes. And all the routers on my way to work twice every day. So how do you avoid this? You keep a list of known locations that you have sent, and don't send that information again. Why would an iPhone need to know about routers? Doesn't it use 3G?
"Apple's iPhone 3G, iPhone 3GS, the iPhone 4, and iPad models are keeping track of consumers whereabouts"
I found this via Hacker News.
willclarke.net - Apple is not “recording your moves”
http://www.willclarke.net/?p=247
Mr. Clarke's research implies that cell tower and Wi-Fi network locations are recorded, but phone location is *not* recorded, in the file at issue.
Of course, if you request the location of nearby restaurants via iPhone app, then your location is must be determined. I have seen no proof that user accessible *device* location data is stored.
If such data were available, why would an application like "Trails - GPS Tracker" ever need to "Resume recording"?
Funny, I don't see any Android phone geolocation cache controls. Did you even bother to look at your own klink? It's for google accounts, not android OS. Duh.
Caveat Utilitor
Who really cares? People who eagerly pony up a few hundred (thousand) bucks every year for the newest, shiniest Apple geegaw certainly don't care.
Personally, I say good for Apple. Their customers are loyal worshipers at the altar of Consumerism, and they deserve everything they get (or buy).
I don't respond to AC's.
Of course, the opposite is true. You could leave your phone somewhere to provide evidence that you were there, rather than the crime scene.
Its right there on your phone. Duh!
http://cdn1.staztic.com/screenshots/gps-settings-60-2.jpg
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Instead of a "Smart Phone"... Apple, Windows, Android... pffft give me a PC-DOS based phone :P
Then I can write my own apps in GWBasic :)
As opposed to the hivemind opinion that Apple can do no wrong?
I'd love to see someone come up with a little utility to alter the data that gets gathered so when it is opened up, all that is seen is "Go Fuck Yourself, Apple!"
A shame there would be no way to see the reactions of those who would actually see such data.
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Doesn' s eem to be a problem on my phone. And how can you triangulate cell towers with a single phone?
Or, probably nothing wrong with the hardware that isn't also wrong with all the competition.
That there is the key. But its far more fun to bash your 'favorite' whipping boy/company for some people.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
That quote from Apple isn't a new one in response to the latest kerflafle, it came from inquiries last summer.
Like anyone can even know that
Apple, we do what we must because we can.
Apple users in the UK can make a Subject Access Request. Apple must provide this within 40 days and may not charge more than £10 (about $16).
I suspect that it could cost them more than £10 to provide the information. It would piss Jobs off considerably - but it is UK law - it would be interesting to see what Apple would do, especially if enough people do this. I don't own an iPad/iPhone otherwise I would.
No his argument is that if you are outraged that Apple does it, then you should be outraged that anyone else does it like Google. If you are willing to give Google a free pass but not Apple, then you have a bias.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
He big boss. Big genius. He design your mind!
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Ok, I see it now. You make a blatantly false statement, I prove you wrong with one picture, and you launch an insult rant.
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Next computer and phone will not be a mac then. /previous Apple customer.
I'm sorry, but your response pretty much proves that you are full of shit. A *TRUE* Apple customer would not respond the way you did, so I call "bullshit" on your post. I do not believe you own *any* Apple products.
That is incorrect. A true Apple consumer would not respond the way the GP did. A true Apple consumer would continue purchasing whatever Jobs and company keep pushing at them due to the idiocy of brand loyalty and banner waving.
A customer, or in this case, a previous customer, would have given them a fair shot for one or two products, then move on to something more appropriate.
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On the other hand, it would give you an iron clad way to get out of any other false accursations.....
Remember, in a world with zero privacy, no one would ever be wrongfully prosecuted.
It is also right there on the iPhone. Settings-->General-->Location Services. You can turn them off or on globally and control which apps can use it if you choose to turn them on.
Except it doesn't work for the tracking database under discussion.
It still tracks you in the on-phone database. It tracks you using tower triangulation even if you turn the iPhone GPS off.
And it keeps at least a years worth of info.
And its stored in an insecure method.
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>>Does the iPhone actually have such a button (in general, not just relating to tagging pictures)? If so, I would agree with you that this amounts to nothing but clueless end-users. I do not suspect that as the case, however.
Settings-> 'location services'. Turn it off. Voila.
-b
No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
You triangulate a single phone with two or more cell towers (triangulate is a misnomer, because all you need are two lines of bearing, not three).
Well the problem on both the iPhone/Android or anything that can be used to calculate your location is that you have absolutely no idea where the data is going (after your location has been found) It can be going to the FBI, advertisers, you name it, its gone there.
You must be monitored and marketed to so the empire of Jobs can continue to grow. How else can they created ads that are location-aware, and thus out-Google Google?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
"But he added that the information is collected anonymously and the devices give users controls for disabling the location features."
Really? Where would that be? According to all accounts, there is NO way to disable the location recording/reporting.
If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits
Exactly like Android, yes. You've got half the information correct. Now, about your cognitive dissonance issue...
Caveat Utilitor
Right, go ahead make an app that disables the sending of GPS data to apple for who knows what god damned reason. I'd be the first to get it
and even Windows computers running Safari 5 are being watched
And here was me about to install it for testing alongside other browsers. Consider that plan cancelled. I'll just have to assume that things work in Safari if they work everywhere else and if they don't, well, tough.
Thank you yes, that's exactly correct (well, after replacing the incorrect pronouns, but who cares?). It's the bias (a gentle way of saying fanboi-ism, BTW) for Google yet against Apple that actually makes no sense at all to any thinking person. I can easily avoid Apple's evil by not buying an Apple. Google, OTOH, you'll practically have to give up the internet if you don't want to be affected. And why is TiVo-ization evil when TiVo does it, but not when Google does it? TiVo releases a device with linux and a locked bootloader and the reaction was so severe that to this day people are trying to shove GPLv3 down eveyone's throats. Google does it and they say, "good thing Linus stuck with GPLv2". Total doublethink. Triplethink, if you include the (clearly mandatory) bashing of all "iFags", real or imagined.
Caveat Utilitor
Problem is that iOS apparently does not flush the data and backup has the data unencrypted. Android has only last 50 entries.
The company has remained silent ...
While Apple has since remained tight-lipped on the matter, not responding to any media-inquires...
In June 2010 ... the company's general counsel Bruce Sewall wrote a letter explaining its practice, and shedding light on the rationale the company uses to monitor users.
After emphasizing Apple's commitment to users' privacy, Sewall said that to provide these location-based services, Apple, its partners and licensees, may collect, use and share customers' precise location data, including GPS information, nearby cell towers and neighboring Wi-Fi networks.
BTW, the article fails to mention that stopped giving that information to partners and licensees with iOS 3.2.
So much for the trollish summary that, if you leave the facts, is in fact a DUPE http://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/07/20/0250203/Apple-Lays-Out-Location-Collection-Policies
Fandroids hate facts.
Tell us why you are prepared to trust Apple AND its partners and licensees (whom you may never know) not to abuse the information it has been collecting on you? This is a serious question, not a taunt. I'd really like to know your rationale in this matter.
I suspect the standard answer will be "if people want to know, I have nothing to hide." So if this is your answer, please respond with your home address and where you work. And since the information is anonymous, don't include your name.
Funny, I don't see any Android phone geolocation cache controls.
I don't own one, I have a Blackberry (see how stupid all the "yer an apple fanboi" idjits look all of a sudden?:)).
Now can you tell me please, how can you possibly see goelocation cache controls in Android without having Android phone?
George Orwell would disagree.
And the government "must have" the "individual mandate" to make the health care overhaul work. That doesn't make it legal. I "must have" my neighbor's wallet to buy a new GPU. That doesn't mean I can go take it. If you ask us nicely, maybe some of us will agree to give you comprehensive, anonymised location data.
I trust Apple as much as I trust any other corporate entity, so... How do I go about fixing this? Where in Snow Leopard is the location information stored? Can someone point me to a file containing my laptop's location information? I'd happily write a script to either keep that file empty or replace all location data with 371406N 1154840W, if I know what file to hit.
There is way to keep disallowing it, but every... single... time that an app requests your location, you will be prompted that "BLah blah blah app is requesting access to your location information" or some such message (i don't use an iphone, my wife does). The first time you click allow, that app will have rights to access your stuff forever and ever and ever. Want to find a starbucks because you're draggin? The first time you click allow to find your closest over-priced java provider will be the last time you will have the right to deny starbucks an intimate knowledge of where you spend your time.
Thanks to seeing this on the news, I've written an AppleScript called iPhone Geotag. It uses the location data to tag Places for your pictures in iPhoto. Brings a happy ending to this scandal, eh? Check it out on: http://goo.gl/OQzfB
I have an idea for a commercial. Imagine lots and lots of identical people wearing identical clothes and white headphones walking in a line and going to a huge room where Steve Jobs will unveil the iPhone2000. Then someone would come in, throw a hammer on the screen where Steve Jobs is talking about how a good design and cool apps are more important than privacy.
In this commercial nobody in the room would escape, instead they would point their fingers to the "terrorist" and scream that he must be sent by Microsoftia (or Googlia or Adobia). The screen would remain broken for a few minutes because with too many iPhones in the same room nobody would be able to contact the authorities, but at some point a bunch of chinese workers would come by to fix it.
The screen would then fade out and the following words would appear: "Think Different. Like Everyone Else."
lucm, indeed.
Could we please stop talking about which company to trust and instead insist in implementations of privacy-related technology that make sure that we don't HAVE to trust them in the first place? Can we start to look at details instead of waging opinion wars and spreading FUD?
To describe what I mean let's compare the location-aware ad systems of Apple (iAd) and Google (AdMob). iAd works by sending your location when viewing an iAd ad along with a random ID generated twice daily on the iPhone to Apple's servers. This ID is anonymous (because it's just a random number) and even the now anonymous user can't be tracked (because the ID changes twice a day). I would call this a clean and rather sophisticated implementation. I don't trust Apple and the advertizing industry, but with this implementation I don't have to. I'm anonymous with iAd and can't be tracked with this. Apple can be evil or not evil, I don't fucking care. They can do with my anonymous and untrackable location data whatever they fucking want to.
Now, Admob. Admob sends the location data along with the Unique Device ID and the Carrier User ID. Both never change, so I can be tracked; the Unique Device ID is fixed to my phone and the Carrier User ID is fixed to my carrier contract, so I'm not anonymous. I *have* to trust Google and the companies Google works with, since this data can be abused. I do NOT want Google to do with that data whatever they want because there is a myriad of things possible with it that would invade my privacy. So I have to trust them. I don't like having to trust them.
If you have RTFA you'll have read that sentence "But he added that the information is collected anonymously and the devices give users controls for disabling the location features." This refers to the random-ID mechanism described above. Isn't this enough? All the other sentences is this article are FUD, it never even describes the mechanism Apple uses. Because if it did, everybody would say "So what? They get my location with a random ID that is in no way connected to my device or to me and that changes twice daily, so why the hell should I care for whatever someone does with it?"
So why the hell do we fight about Apple being evil or Google not being evil? I don't care, in the end corporations can't and shouldn't be trusted, none of them. I don't trust Apple and neither do I trust Google. I want implementations of such mechanisms that DO NOT REQUIRE ME TO TRUST THEM.
Let's talk about the fucking details and stop fighting about whom to trust and whom not. Don't trust them and make sure you don't have to.
It's not sent to Apple. It is stored on the device and the computer it syncs with.
It's been mentioned elsewhere, this is very likely a bug and not designed behavior. The file in question is meant to be the location cache and should be operating much like the cache on Android, only the deletion has not been happening.
The quote is old, from 2010 and before this current situation even existed.
The situation now is most likely a bug, as the file in question (which is not transfered to Apple) is meant to be the location cache. Obviously the cache isn't being purged as it should be.
One hardly needs conspiracy theories to explain this behavior. If the corporations can track your every move, you become a captive audience, no place to go, nowhere to hide as they take bigger and bigger bites out of your wallet until your financial vitality has been sucked dry and they can move on to the next victim.
Its simply all about making greater and greater profits, no matter the social consequences. Besides, with corporations already in control, who can tell the difference between the government and corporations anyway these days? The entire fiction of "the quest for smaller government" is that it is based on the notion that the people will still somehow "be in charge".
In reality it means that just an every shrinking number of corporate lobbyists will be telling everybody what to do at the behest of a tiny handful of corporate "owners". That is the true meaning of what the smaller government mantra is all about and yet the suckers continue to fall for it, hook line and sinker.
Google may be Skynet, but it turns out Apple is Big Brother. Or is Apple in Big Brothers pocket? One more reason to dislike all things Apple and Jobs.
then you can be plugged into the Apple Store no matter where you go 24/7. If you spend time at place X and time Y, then they know where and when to direct their energies not to mention inform any third parties who might be willing to pay Apple for that information. This capability wasn't built in to simply to permit a handshake between your iPhone and cell towers, it was built in for a long term marketing and business plan. The only way you can avoid it is to stay away from Apple products, which evidently, like cocaine, some people just are unable to do without.
Google gets away with calling their stuff "FOSS" while withholding the source.
Steve Kondik would probably disagree with you.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Does the iPhone actually have such a button (in general, not just relating to tagging pictures)?
I'm not an iPhone owner, so I don't know from personal experience, but I believe that this discussions revolves around this tracking and logging occurring regardless of user settings. That's why it's so bad.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Sorry, I'm throwing the bullshit card on this one.
Really? a "known troll"? I have EXCELLENT Karma, and am regularly afforded points to moderate. You?
I have excellent karma, and I have set myself unwilling to moderate because moderation is broken by design. Meanwhile, you have so little karma to squander that you feel you have to post the above comment anonymously. I have karma to burn.
Feel the burn.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Since MS will mainly be making their money off of software licenses they could create a campaign to target this.
Are you kidding? Microsoft might say they aren't interested in ad revenue but that would be a lie.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
and got some plus votes, but overall most of the "OMG APPLE IS EVIL" people got the higher votes, without any rational explanation.
Funny ... I'm about as anti-Apple as anyone and invariably get modded Troll for making even oblique anti-Apple references. Even when I'm just criticizing Steve Jobs, or some company policy, and not any specific Apple product or feature. So I disagree with you in your premise that Slashdot is especially pro-Apple: I've experienced quite the opposite. You must have just been lucky, if you can call it that.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
The real benefit is that free software is free. This kind of anti-end user "feature" is totally impossible in the Free Software world. If developer tried this kind of stuff in a free software project, his project would be forked so fast it would make his head spin. It is probably a five line fix!
The only reason this feature does not get hacked away is because it is illegal and difficult because lack of source code.
The bottom line is that Free Software developers can not indulge in this anti-end-user behavior, because their projects would get forked!
When you buy a computer with a proprietary OS used for personal purposes you are giving hostile strangers control over part of your life.
It's only unencrypted on your computer if you don't encrypt your backups (which is a click away in iTunes).
But this is nothing new. I know people securing their computers very tightly and still without thinking store their backups unencrypted and unsecured. People...
And: http://www.willclarke.net/?p=247 -- This is not a database of where you've been, it's a database of cell towers your phone has seen, one entry per cell tower. Looking at the data on my iPhone I came to the same conclusion. I have found hardly any datapoint in there closer than half a mile to my real position and when I was on high ground in otherwise flat land the iPhone recorded dozens of locations at once from up to tens of miles around.
But now having a cell tower map of all areas I have been surely is nice! Thanks, Apple!
iOS also asks you if it can collect location data, and you can also turn off collection at any time in settings.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It's shit like this that makes me VERY happy I don't buy Apple products.
All location tracking in Android is totally optional, in fact you are explicitly asked if you want to enable it the first time you turn on your phone, there is no way to even skip the question.
Actually, you don't. You only need the two lines that intersect. A third tower (and each additional tower) only adds to the accuracy. Where the two lines intersect is a pretty good indication of the location of the emitter. The "distance circles" you mention decrease with a third tower, but you still only need two to get close enough (for government work).
I already somewhat disliked Apple for hardware lockin and rediculous platform controls but their doubling down on this leaves me never wanting to go near an Apple products for the rest of my life.
I wouldn't want them having this information.
You can't stop them from having this information.. You can and should stop them from using this information They are going to continue collecting it, with or without your knowledge/approval. It will be encrypted in the hardware, and there's not a damn thing you will be able to do about it.
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
All location tracking in Android is totally optional, in fact you are explicitly asked if you want to enable it the first time you turn on your phone,
So since the same is true of the iPhone, you are willing to say this story is FUD?
If not, why not?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
What's so frustrating is that all this energy and resources being spent trying to make ads more targeted, better to entice consumers, and more aware of my personality, location, mental state, etc are ultimately going to be COMPLETELY lost on me for the simple fact that I DON'T SEE ADS. That money and time and talent could be spent making a better product, but I still wouldn't pay for it unless absolutely necessary.
This just underscores the need for pervasive adblocking at all levels of life. My dream is for FF to ship with Adblock Plus functionality built in and turned on by default (subscribed to some list for filtering) and the other major browsers to do the same. Part of me wishes this, yes, but then I realize what the world would be like if advertising were rendered completely impotent. I'd suddenly have to pay for things. Considering this, I reluctantly abandon the higher ethic of an ad-free world and resign myself to at least creating one for me and people I care about.
I'm an advertisers worst nightmare. I go out of my way not to be tracked and to avoid ads, and when one does slip past my efforts I make an effort to avoid that company at all costs for the few things I do actually purchase. Extracting as much value as possible from the twisted machine of corporate advertising supported products without suffering their culturally polluting poison gas is something I relish to no end--and I teach as many people as possible my ways.
Yeah, it's a bug. "Whoops., we accidentally stored a complete history of everywhere you've ever been, because designing a cache is *soo hard* and we obviously don't have talented programmers or anyone who tests code who'd notice that this file gets f'in huge if you drive around". ;) Bah. I wrote some code to delete files older than 60 days in a directory just a few days ago; it took about 5 minutes, most of which was testing that it actually worked. :D
Anyway...
Regarding where the data lives, I'll start with a quote from The Fine Article:
So, while some people are saying it's not sent back to Apple, the fine fella from Apple in the interview sure seems to indicate that it "might" be. Then there's this AP article:
So, umm, I'm pretty sure it does send data back, as that's what caused most of the uproar to begin with. It's unclear to me whether the whole data file is sent back, or whether it's just "here's a list of WAPs and where they are". Which, as an aside, is why my WAP gets a different MAC address periodically. This week, it's the ever-popular 00deadbeef00.
Speaking of this stuff, I wonder what my HP WebOS device does (probably sniffs my bank account information and sends my balance to HP hourly). :)
This is not what caused the uproar. If you go to the original source that even disclosed this was happening, they point out there is "[no] evidence to suggest this data is leaving your custody".
TFA is quoting Sewall from last year and trying to put it into the context of the current situation when his comments were not in the context of the current situation. That seems pretty disingenuous.
I'm about as anti-Apple as anyone and invariably get modded Troll for making even oblique anti-Apple references.
Well, there's your problem. You're not being direct enough. The mods think you're on Apple's side.
Strangely, it's almost true. If you're "meh" about Apple, the Apple fans mod you down for saying something mildly offensive, but you're not being offensive enough for the Apple haters to mod you up. And everyone else doesn't care about mild comments unless they're funny.
I'd like to see rotating macs/ssid based on something like s/key or secureID, or Kerberos. I know those don't quite do whats needed, but the concept is that both user and server has a seed they both know, and they both know what time it is so they can calculate what values should be in use. It would do very little for security but a lot for privacy. It would require a rework of all the wifi drivers though.
Just because a privacy flaw big enough to drive trucks through (with the acknowledgement that it's in a protocol designed 10 years before modern data mining) exists doesn't mean it will ever get fixed. Probably half the people want reliability more than privacy and like targeted advertisements.
You guys are both foes of friends, so I find this whole thread amusing.
Personally, I can't imagine Apple losing any customers whatsoever about this. The super paranoid who are complaining about this stuff keep talking up alternatives, which makes me think they're already using those alternatives. Apple will probably lower the tracking window, or at least disguise it better, and these articles will stop. But the point is, people buy Apple products for reasons other than to hide their location. People buy cell phones because they want to be reachable. People like phone apps that know where they are. From what other people have said, this seems to just be to limit the need for calling up data from cell towers, which takes time and bandwidth. Some lone lazy programmer probably figured it was easier to just store data forever, rather than some vast conspiracy to tell thieves when to steal your TV.
Everything in life is a balance. If you need a absolute location privacy while in public places (they already know your private home location, since you pay a bill), buy a burner with cash, and keep it off until you need to make a phone call.
-mrxak
Onions Will Kill You
Wipe the contents of the user location database? We need an app for that!
Undercover uses the (cached) location details of your device to send to its servers whenever it gets a chance, to help (re)locating it if/when lost/stolen.
The most interesting thing about the revelations of how Google & Apple are collecting enormous amounts of personal data is the rationalizations that people are using to ignore the issue. Thinking ahead, when Apple starts enforcing the little-known clause in their EULA that requires people to sacrifice their first born to Baal, I'm sure there will be comments about how Baal has gotten a bad rap and is actually related to Spring fertility gods, and therefore the sacrifice is a good thing, as it will guarantee us not only a continued supply of high tech but also a better food supply.
So just STFU and continue to enjoy the Apple goodness.
Wrong thinking will be punished.
"I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
Sigh, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=iphone+tracking+location+services Turning off location services does not turn off the location logging.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the (supposed) good of its victims may be the most oppressive
I mean, I've brought and used Apple products before (as well having been given them). Then I've chosen to sell them on and use the money for something else.
So, does that make me a target for Apple to try to win me back as a user, or not.
I really can't figure out what (if anything) they're trying to do. And I don't give it much thought though, since it's possible that Apple aren't actually interested in re-gaining former users, considering them as "beyond hope".
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Sooooooo, this has been beat to death in the last few days, but this was ALL disclosed last year, is nothing new, and so I'm wondering why you're dredging up a 10 month old revelation from APPLE to try and spin hysteria?
JohnJacksonGLUTTONY?
Could someone point me to an article that explains how it tracks location? Also where it sends/stores that info? Thanks
to all the celebrities that get followed by photographers day in and day out
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
There's a ton of information out there, and it all says something slightly different. The differences seem to vary based on how enamored with Apple the reporting source is. :)
Personally, I don't care what happens to people with iPhones. However, it does somewhat irritate me that any dumbass with an iPhone walking past my house is assisting Apple in tying my wireless access point's MAC with the GPS coordinates where it's located. Well, not so much my house, since my MAC address changes periodically. But the idea bugs me.
It is funny to take TFA out of context and use a year old quote from Apple and pretend like it is a response to the current story.
Sounds a bit too Orwellian to me. Apple nor any one else should have a legitimate need for information that detailed about any one's movements. If the information is there and has the possibility of being misused it will be misused. It's very much an issue as to what companies are trust worthy.and the total is not many. OTOH I trust private companies more than the government with this kind of information. If they didn't come up with this stuff then there would be no need for more privacy laws and regulations. We have become far too much of a Nanny state as it is.
wow...i was reading this thread on geolocation and it all of a sudden changed to anti-android rant.
Nice strawman with the 'apple fanboi' comment btw.