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Steve Jobs: 'We Don't Track Anyone'
fysdt writes "There has obviously been a lot of discussion about last week's disclosure that iOS devices are maintaining an easily-accessible database tracking the movements of users dating back to the introduction of iOS 4 a year ago. The issue has garnered the attention of US elected officials and has played fairly heavily in the mainstream press. One MacRumors reader emailed Apple CEO Steve Jobs asking for clarification on the issue while hinting about a switch to Android if adequate explanations are not forthcoming. Jobs reportedly responded, turning the tables by claiming both that Apple does not track users and that Android does, while referring to the information about iOS shared in the media as 'false.'"
Apple has now been hit with a class-action lawsuit over the location-tracking issue.
Not one specific person, anyway. More like "everyone". See the difference?
Then why did they come out with a statement last week saying they *had* to track users to give them the best experience? I'm not buying what Steve's selling.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Steve said it, so it must be true.
But it still needs to be fixed.
...we just make it possible for our business and gov't partners to track everyone.
...You're just holding it wrong.
That's what this PR sounds to me like after reading all those articles on the issue. Honestly though, who would have expected anything less? It's the job of marketers to stick to the company line, no matter what.
Is it even important whether Google does it or not? It's still wrong.
If you're talking about information being sent to Apple then it's a "no". But if you define it as recorded locally, then "yes".
My take on it is, the device is tracking me, but Apple is not. Anyone know the specifics on the CA/NY law regarding "tracking"? If these are truly "consumer protection laws", then they should be referring to Apple, not the product you've purchased and is in your possession. I don't need a law to protect me from my PHONE.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Does he think we're stupid?
You're GPS long/lat is being tracked. Like it or not, your GPS is tracked by the carrier and by your phone. If you don't want to be tracked, turn your phone off. Carriers do it for an obvious reason, make sure they know which areas are near capacity. Phones track it to give you a better experience. Can the government access the GPS information on your phone? Duh, they don't have to. They already have gear to pull your GPS location when ever they want to from the Cell you're closest to. Sure they have to get a warrant and shit, but really do you think they don't abuse the rules? If you don't want to be tracked, then don't buy a cell phone. Better yet, buy a cabin deep in the woods and only use cash.
He thinks your attention span is so low that ... hey look a puppy.
Holding-it-wrong is the perfect solution to the problem.
"Place me in the company of those who seek Truth, but deliver me from those who believe to have found it."
What google does about location 'tracking' is not same as what Apple has been reported to be doing.
Apple fanbois want to lump google/android in this discussion again and again and again expecting everybody would think Google is just "as bad" as Apple. But it's not. Now Steve Jobs is shitting bricks and trying to do the same.
If anybody comes out douche in this, it's Steve Jobs, Apple and the fanbois.
(I don't use either ios or android - I just hate somebody misrepresenting facts time and again)
Does anyone else get the impression that Steve Jobs has a tendency to just open his mouth and respond to everything immediately rather than actually checking with somebody in apple that knows more than he does? I mean, sure, it's part of his job to publicly defend apple against malicious rumors, but sometimes it's not just rumor...
Well, he thinks you're his customers.
(And if you're not buying from him, he doesn't care what you read into his message.)
Looks fake to me, probably an iFan trying to take bad press away from Apple. For one thing Apple or Steve Jobs would make a public statement before sending a simple, one-line email to a customer. In fact Apple has refused to comment on this issue. For one thing he would not claim that the iPhone does not track this data since anyone with an iPhone can use the free tool to see where they've been.
"The location data is often far removed from a user's location. Schlesinger says he thinks it may be picking up cell towers and WiFi hotspots, neither of which will necessarily be that close to a person with a phone. Schlesinger and Levinson both say the tracking would not be much use in finding a certain person. The real issue is that the file is unencrypted when it is synced to another device.
Read more: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/137806/20110425/apple-hit-with-class-action-suit-over-tracking.htm#ixzz1KZcOlnsG"
This line is kinda hazy if you ask me. This is an intricate problem, and I don't know that many of us understand the exact implementation well enough to really make much sense of it. Does the cell phone report the data? Is the data used? How is the data used (I'm perfectly fine with my phone being able to *quickly* find a nearby pizza joint)? Is the information they collect in real time or delayed (I don't care as much about them knowing where I was 6 months ago as today)? Surely unencrypted transmission of important data should be stopped, but I'll defer to Microsoft to explain why we accept security flaws sometimes. Apple provides services based on knowing where you are. They know where you are, how are they using it? I'm not sure. I'll wait for official statements.
with that woman"
Did you believe him too?
It's like how the federal government wont admit that they tap all our phones, they just want us to think they tap the terrorists phones but of course wont say exactly who the terrorists are.
What google does about location 'tracking' is not same as what Apple has been reported to be doing.
And then you proceed to not back up your claim with any actual data.
Both iOS and Android have a location cache. The difference is I'll bet from an Android app I could read that cache and from iOS you cannot. On iOS I know the cache is not sent to Apple, are you so sure the same is true of an Android device?
Any other differences we should know about besides Android being potentially less secure?
It's not like people are making up these claims to smear Android, they are just pointing out the facts - something Android fanatics seem curiously unwilling to discuss.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
as we remember, ralph is a genuine native elder, the spiritual leader of the submerged southern hillarians, & associated with the distribution of the teepeeleaks etchings, & hard to watch feature film; repentant, which makes the cuban powwow drama look like a mormormonic boys choir scandal, in comparison, for which there is none, excepting for other chosen.religion.biz crusade based genocidic depopulationings, about which it is better for us to not think about changing anything this time around, as god remains in full command. who wants to track us. nobody cares where we go. it's all fearmongering. this happened before, & before that. smarten up. thank you.
Bill Clinton: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman"
Steve Jobs: Sorry, but your phone proves otherwise.
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
"We just make it much MUCH easier for those that do!"
It has meanwhile been debunked that this file tracks the location of the iPhone. It draws a map of locations of cell towers. The positions in this file are not the position of the iPhone when the user used a location app, the positions are the locations of the cell towers the iPhone saw in this moment. This is pretty clear now. The cell tower ID is the UNIQUE ID of the database, there are only clusters of tower locations saved at the same time with locations miles apart and NONE of these are the actual position of your phone.
Some real world testing: http://www.willclarke.net/?p=247
And yes, this also paints a rough picture of where you used location services, because only the stations around the places where you used location services are in this database. But: The stations are miles around your real position and since there is no signal strength info saved triangulation is not possible. I have found stations recorded that were up to ten miles away from my true position and hardly any stations nearer than half a mile (you'd need to stand right under a cell tower and use Google Maps there to have the position of the iPhone and the tower match by accident, so this happens almost never and the data shows exactly that).
So: The iPhone builds a local database with a network topography map and never throws it away. If it would throw that info away it would need to ask external databases (of Google or SkyHook) instead to learn the coordinates of the towers that it sees. By doing so it would neccessarily TELL these providers where it is.
Basically you have the choice of your phone tracking you (very roughly) in an internal database or have someone else providing an external database and by this tracking your phone. The iPhone does the first, Android does the latter (and Android even sends the Unique Device ID along). Believe it or not, but technically Jobs is right. The iPhone tracks you in an internal database, but with Android Google tracks your phone in external databases.
I don't expect many people to understand that though. Even with much explaining to basically neutral people hardly more than 5 of ten understand how positioning works and what it implies. Or what a "Unique Device ID" is.
Ever since 9-11 your cell phone can track you. Even the cheap ones with or without gps.
Grow up and get over it.
The boogy man is not looking over your shoulder all of a sudden hes been doing it for a longtime.
This is either a phony message or a lie by Steve Jobs. Both are possible.
it depends on what your definition of tack is?
i've been messing with http://petewarden.github.com/iPhoneTracker a bit. its pretty interesting. i'm just wondering what triggers the coords to be stored. it has places i have been at for more than a few minutes - home, work, in-laws home, mall, etc. but nothing for the routes in between (i have a 45minute drive from home to work) so is it triggered by calls made? specific times of the day? after X number tower changes? does anyone know?
Wow, the GPS resolution on those things must be better than I thought.
Just as an example: Android sends along the Unique Device ID and the Carrier User ID when sending you location data to AdMob customers. iOS (iAd) sends a random ID that is generated twice daily on the iPhone. What's more wrong?
And I'm really curious how you want to have fast positioning without knowing the positions of cell towers. Either the phone saves the positions in an internal database (as the iPhone does) or it has to ask external databases every time. And if your phone asks Google's or SkyHook's servers where the cell towers are that it sees, Google/SkyHook then know where you are. You have basically the choice of your phone tracking you in an internal database or have others track your phone in their database. This is somewhat similar to local storage for documents or storing it in the cloud: In the first case someone stealing your phone can get at your documents. Put them into the cloud and someone else already has them.
I just can't believe that "nerds" are complaining that the iPhone tries to lessen the dependence on external services by building an internal database of cell tower locations. Yeah, if someone steals your iPhone he can see roughly where you have been at least once. But then he also has your address book and your call and SMS history and your browser history and all other data on it. So remote wipe it immediately and be done with it.
"And then you proceed to not back up your claim with any actual data."
"The difference is I'll bet from an Android app I could read that cache and from iOS you cannot."
Well, I wish you had backed up your claim with actual data, as you say.
Author of the tool that reads android's location file says: "You will need root access to the device to read this directory." Which means you can't do that with an app. ;)
To make things even funnier, its *almost* the other way around. From your desktop, any app could read your iphone's location data from any of your iTunes backups.
Apple claims that a database of all the wifi or cell transmitters your device has seen - in order to store your "location history" - is patentable, and have filed US Patent Application 12/553,554 to that effect:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53886728
So if Apple doesn't do location tracking, and Android does, why is Apple trying to patent it?
Hey guys, you know that profitable thing you think we've been doing? You know, the one that causes bad press. We're totally not doing it.
-Guy that's being accused
Help fight spam
I'll just leave this here: http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q206/SilverCrusader/AppleSatire.png?t=1303770110 --- Gotta love my freedom of speech.
do it, it's fun!
You're quoting the bit about Location Services, and when you turn those on, your phone's location is identified for ad services. What Apple is saying here is that the ad services never get to know who they're serving to, and Apple does not store this data either. They could, based on uid, but they say they don't.
The database of cell tower locations has nothing to do with this, other than that it is updated when Location Services is used.
The issue here is not "Apple is tracking me" -- it's "Apple is storing the timestamped location of towers I've been near while using Location Services, and they're backing this up to my computer in the clear without notification."
Everything else is just noise.
I suppose there's a different privacy issue w/ regard to phone manufactures and software developers (and potential hackers) tracking your rough whereabouts, but, technically, isn't locally stored location information redundant? Telcom's have long cooperated with law enforcement in tracking and spying on their customers, and, my understanding anyway, is that provisions of the Patriot Act allow for warrantless taps, searches, etc.
So, what is the difference? Why the outcry and concern? Heck, there's even a case of the FBI activating users' microphones remotely to bug their conversations. Seems scarier to me. http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029_3-6140191.html
...and napster didn't pirate copyrighted mp3s. So if you don track you don't need... so take it off the device because your wasting storage space. Seriously you don't have to track.... that's because the people you let access it do. Do you get paid for that? Let me guess... it's a "Service".
||| I still can't believe Parkay's not butter.
They say it's "anonymous" here, but combined with the "unique device identifier" they already said they collect with it, you have to wonder exactly what "anonymous" means in Apple-speak.
They mean anonymous as in it isn't directly tied to your name. It's possible that is has how much you spend, what apps and websites you use, what areas you live, spend your day, shop and eat, where you go at christmas, how often you go to the hospital or what day you go grocery shopping, how fast you drive and how far each week.
They can collect an incredibly dense picture of your life, but as long as they refer to you as 155264 rather then your real name (which isn't really that useful to marketers, as any sane person would freak when they saw their name in banner ads on a website), then they can say it's anonymous
-------
Drink Coffee - Do Stupid Things Faster And With More Energy!
So you don't back up your comments with data either?
You seem to not know anything about the inner workings of Android, but you feel confident enough to assume that every Android app can access this tracking data. Then you go and claim that Android is potentially less secure because you have a belief that Android apps can do something that may or may not be possible.
It's not like people are making up these claims to smear Android, they are just pointing out the facts - something Android fanatics seem curiously unwilling to discuss.
You are not pointing out any facts at all (or have any references to facts). You seem to be defensively reacting because someone has insulted the device that you like. These are just phones after all. Pick your poison and use it, but don't get silly when someone talks smack about it, and don't write comments all half-cocked like this.
He's been criticized a number of groups but praised generally for his business acumen and there's one simpe reason for it. He can look a severe violation of privacy designed as a part of their product and defend it by saying "that problem doesn't even exist," and people believe him. I bet he doesn't even know why himself, but they believe him. Whether or not you hate him you have to admit the Reality Distortion Field is impressive.
Only the second quote is about Location Services. The first bit is information that Apple collects from all Apple devices, period.
The first quote comes from the section on "non-personal information" and is essentially the data that Apple considers to be "anonymous."
Here is that section in full:
Collection and Use of Non-Personal Information
We also collect non-personal information -- data in a form that does not permit direct association with any specific individual. We may collect, use, transfer, and disclose non-personal information for any purpose. The following are some examples of non-personal information that we collect and how we may use it:
If we do combine non-personal information with personal information the combined information will be treated as personal information for as long as it remains combined.
So the unique identifier and location are considered "non personal" and may be collected from any Apple device, and are not related to Location Services, which is an entirely separate part of the policy.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
The only time that question mattered (in court where lying was perjury) he asked the judge for a definition of "sexual relations." And the judge responded with a definition that did not include fellatio. As such, Clinton would have committed perjury if he had said "yes" to the question. But, because of the judge's error, he got falsely labeled a perjurer.
Sometimes, like this case, it's more important to know who's asking and what definitions they are using.
From what everyone is saying, Apple is not tracking anyone with the file in question. It's being collected even with location services turned off. And it's being stored in cleartext upon sync. But the phone is not sending it back to Apple and Apple is not using it to track anyone. There is no information that any wrongdoing has been done by Apple, other than sloppy programming. It seems to be a necessary system file that could remain encrypted on the phone and never sync'ed and no one would have ever known or cared. A little programming cleanup for a future release, and the "problem" goes away. That may all be wrong, and the lawsuits will likely find out, but based on the information from both sides at this point, if everyone told the truth, that's about how it goes. If someone didn't tell the truth, then that will also be found out.
But then, even discovering whether someone did or didn't tell the truth often doesn't link directly with the results in the public eye.
Learn to love Alaska
As the turtle necked one waves his hand, careful to not obstruct the iphones internal antenna.
You're quoting the bit about Location Services, and when you turn those on, your phone's location is identified for ad services. What Apple is saying here is that the ad services never get to know who they're serving to, and Apple does not store this data either. They could, based on uid, but they say they don't..
They even couldn't. The ID iAd sends along with the location data is a random ID that gets generated twice daily on the iPhone. This is just enough to serve the right iPhone with local ads, but that's it. It's not a user ID and not a phone ID and it changes twice a day.
Now, AdMob (Google):
"AdMob will automatically collect and receive information about those visitors such as, but not limited to, browser identifiers, session information, browser cookies, device type, carrier provider, IP addresses, unique device ID, carrier user ID, geo-location information, sites visited and clicks on advertisements we display."
Don't ask for companies you can trust. Ask for implementations of privacy-related technologies that don't require you to trust them.
The problem is all this information is stored, making your phone an even bigger treasure-trove for anyone who would exploit that data. Particularly law enforcement and government, who have no respect for privacy or a persons liberty these days. Michigan will download your entire phone without a warrant.
You will need root access to the device to read this directory." Which means you can't do that with an app.
Unless your Android device is rooted, which is common. Which means you can. Oops! Your bad.
No, apps run on a rooted Android device don't run as root.
Yes he does think you are stupid and he would be right.
They mean anonymous as in it isn't directly tied to your name.
It turns out they even explicitly explain this. Not quite as clearly, of course, but, from the Apple Privacy Policy again:
We also collect non-personal information -- data in a form that does not permit direct association with any specific individual. We may collect, use, transfer, and disclose non-personal information for any purpose. The following are some examples of non-personal information that we collect and how we may use it:
* We may collect information such as occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, location, and the time zone where an Apple product is used...
So, yeah - the unique device ID is gathered along with your location, and this is considered "non personal information" - a.k.a. anonymous information.
So I suppose what Jobs is saying is, technically, true: Apple isn't tracking you. They're just tracking your phone.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
You seem to not know anything about the inner workings of Android, but you feel confident enough to assume that every Android app can access this tracking data.
Why do Android people seem to lack basic reading comprehension? I hypothesized it MIGHT be true of Android, not that it WAS true. It's just as rational as claiming it's a problem on the Apple side to have a location cache file consisting of cell tower locations that is not even sent to Apple. And we know for a fact that on Android many more people root devices which opens up the system more.
You seem to be defensively reacting
I am simply using the same language to create a parody, which you have demonstrated hit the mark a little too close.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
can you say i got caught with my hand in the cookie jar and am now trying to desperately turn this around on my accusers.
You will need root access to the device to read this directory." Which means you can't do that with an app.
Unless your Android device is rooted, which is common. Which means you can. Oops! Your bad.
But even with a rooted Android device, the app still needs the user to give it "Superuser" permissions.
So any old app won't have root access unless you specifically give it.
If any app asks for superuser permissions a bloody well make sure I check it out first!!
Laters Sol "Have you found the secrets of the universe? Asked Zebade "I'm sure I left them here somewhere"
Regardless of what you may believe about Steve Job's contributions to the world and to personal computing, you really can't deny that he's a pretty big asshole (maybe not a "total" asshole, but at least an 85% asshole). Here we have him simultaneously slinging some rather deceptive mud at Android while simultaneously lying totally.
Apple tracks you. There's a file. It's created. It keeps track of all the locations you've been to. That's tracking, Apple is doing it. Therefore, Apple is tracking you. End of discussion.
Now what Apple might NOT be doing is *collecting* the tracking information they gather. They may simply leave it to rot on your phone without gathering it to a central location and parsing it. That does not mean Apple is not tracking me; it just means Apple does not know where I am. There's a big difference there, but both things *matter*. If Apple is tracking me, that means the record exists -- whether Apple has it or not is the only point of concern. The mere fact that it exists means that it can therefore be used against me by LEA, malicious software, and thieves. The record should not exist, but it does, and Apple needs to own up to that mistake and fix it, or acknowledge it and make it public knowledge. If Steve Jobs says "Apple does not track you", then he is explicitly and blatantly lying. If he wanted to address Apple's intent, or practices, or whatever -- he could, but saying that Apple does not track me is tantamount to saying that the file does not exist -- which is provably false. In short, it's a lie.
Does Android track people? Sometimes. If you run maps, it forwards that location data to Google which is anonymized and used for traffic pattern analysis etc. It does not track me all the time. Latitude does, but that's opt-in. Without enabling latitude, there's no personally identifiable record to be stolen/subpoenaed/abused. Moreover, unlike Apple, we know Google does this because they say so. They do not hide it, they put it front and center, and explain why they do it and how to opt out of it.
You were modded down because your post was an incomprehensible train wreck, like they always are.
What's most surprising is the fact that you're surprised.
Celebrity worship is a poor substitute for Deity worship and costs more to boot.
OK, so maybe Apple isn't using the data to track people but who else has access to the data that might be?
They're not just grabbing this data for the hell of it, surely?
"On iOS I know the cache is not sent to Apple"
How do you know that? And if not, then why is the cache there?
The fact that these two idiots cant find it doesn't mean its not there. These two brain surgeons "Discovered" a file that all the other researchers already knew was there. Note apps exist to show you this info ON ANDROID PHONES. ALL AGPS phones do this its how they work.
I downmodded you as part of the international conspiracy that killed JFK, caused the Challenger explosion, destroyed the Deepwater Horizon, and yes we can read your mind because of the implant. Feel that scar behind your right ear? that's from us removing the old one when we upgraded your implant from IPv4 to the IPv6 version; the new version also don't need to be planted next to the brain, but can be put anywhere, like the back of a knee, armpit, or small of the back. 4 billion IP addresses arn't enought when there are 7 billion people to monitor.
When are you going to STOP impersonating me?
I put you in my HOSTS file and everything.
APK
Unless your Android device is rooted, which is common.
[citation needed]
[seriously]
[statements like this cry out for at least some cursory amount of documentation]
#DeleteChrome
You don't, but Apple have said (not just Jobs in this statement, but in developer workshops at WWDC in the past) that it is not collected, and what it is used for - A-GPS. Short of never believing anyone, at some point you have to assume non-malice and that he is telling the truth, even if you are skeptical. So far even the "sky is falling" people who have 'discovered' this 'secret' information have yet to say that it is being sent to Apple - from the nature of the data it is looking very likely that it is useful to the phone itself, and of limited use to Apple. Short of someone definitively proving otherwise, you have to at some point say "ok, they have said it's not being collected", in the same way that you have to trust Google is not keeping logs forever of each Android handset that reports its data.
So the reason the cache exists is to make the A-GPS work more quickly, especially for things like tagging your photos (if you have that feature turned on) - imagine how long that would take, and how much battery it would waste, if the phone had to fire up the GPS chip and use a cold-locate every time to work out where the phone is, compared to looking at the cache file first and working out roughly where it is, making an accurate GPS lock much quicker and for much less battery.
That is why the file exists, among many other location-aware activities on the phone (quicker lock in google maps, etc), not some wild conspiracy that "Apple is tracking your every move"
One way to keep your tracking app from being used against you in a court of law is to destroy its credibility by filling it with implausible information.
Attorney: "Would it be correct to say that you have relied on the defendant's phone location database to place him at the protest rally?"
Cop: "That's correct."
Attorney: "According to my client's phone records, he had breakfast that day in Berlin, lunch in Sydney, dinner in Vancouver, an a nightcap in Santiago. Can you explain how that is possible?"
Cop: "I guess he has fairy dust and a magic sleigh."
Attorney: "No further questions, your Honor."
What would happen if someone wrote an app that inserts enough random information into the various nooks and crannies of a smart phone to render it useless for forensic purposes? Hmmmmm.
Obi-Wan: "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were sudden
Really, iPhones and Andoid phones ( I have an Android) keep track of the phone's location on a regular basis. This is not in dispute.
Of course Jobs and Google have to deny this is actually tracking 'anyone'. The legal implications are obvious.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
why doesn't the invasive evil creep just get on with dying.
oh sure, a bunch of mentally deficient and extremely shallow consumers will shed a tear or two but the rest of the world will benefit from one less rotten fucker to deal with.
next to shell and news international, apple are one of the most unpleasant firms around.
... I accidentally started reading the comments at the MacRumour post.
Did you buy a droid?
Who would have thought. I care about my privacy, but I see no reason to ditch my iPhone 4 over this: 1. It's not accurate 2. It doesn't get sent to Apple 3. Even if it did get sent to Apple, they can use that information to better manage their cell-tower connection code or what have you, I see that as a Win for the consumer. Seriously, it's like people complaining that their credit card keeps track of the date/time/location of their purchases (which I'd be MORE worried about, with the amount of money I spend in liquor stores!).
To complete the thought: "We don't track everyone. We just make it possible for the state to track everyone."
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
then why Vikram Ajjampur has a profile in Facebook , in Linkedin, in Mylife and in many other places with his real name. It appears that there is only one Vikram Ajjampur in the whole USA. At least the other guy is a lawyer with many homonymous people in the country. This is more of a publicity stunt or money grab than anything else.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
following you around. Of course, we record everywhere you go and resell the info and use it in other ways that may not be in your interest. But no "tracking".
Your phone records the location data. Apple never sees the data. Therefore, Apple (as an entity) does not track you.
OTOH, Google does get location data w/ UDIDs from Android phones on a regular basis.
They only track you if you hold it wrong.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
..or maybe it was skynet?
So close, except I'm not tomhudson, I'm APK. You may have heard of me? I invented using the HOSTS file to do basically everything
APK
*facepalm*
This is the most WTF comment I have read on /. for a really long time.
See subject-line, & this quote:
"So close, except I'm not tomhudson, I'm APK." - by Anonymous Coward REALLY tomhudson ac stalking & trolling again on Monday April 25, @08:38PM (#35936864)
Well, that's NOT what your "by-line" says above, & neither does this from you tomhudson:
"Wait until he starts on another kick, then reply to him as an AC. It's the new meme". - by tomhudson (43916) on Sunday May 09 2010, @08:29PM (#32150544) Homepage Journal
QUOTED VERBATIM FROM A YEAR AGO ON THESE FORUMS-> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1646272&cid=32150544
Tomhudson did so again, repeatedly, all last week again:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2086424&cid=35841122
and here also:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2086920&cid=35840680
(Kind of tough to deny you anonymous coward stalk and troll others tomhudson, when your own words show you do exactly that, and, for more than a year regarding myself!)
See - If that's the "best you've got", tomhudson? I suggest you read below in my 'p.s.' section... lmao!
---
Lastly?
"I invented using the HOSTS file to do basically everything" - by Anonymous Coward REALLY tomhudson ac stalking & trolling again on Monday April 25, @08:38PM (#35936864)
I can't HELP it if HOSTS files are damned versatile... & trolling little dorks, such as yourself being a PRIME EXAMPLE THEREOF, NEVER, EVER disprove my points on it:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2100524&cid=35930284
On VALID technical grounds... not once, lol, ever!
(Now that? That's outright HILARIOUS... & it's said /. is "the #1 tech site online"?? Please... this past year, it's sadly become a bunch of damned wannabes & trolls have invaded it, ruining it for the rest of us is what I think of it lately & I'm FAR from alone in that sentiment!)
APK
P.S.=> Of course, there's ALWAYS "the old classic" & THE 4 QUESTIONS THAT tomhudson WILL NEVER, EVER ANSWER & EVADE UNTIL HELL FREEZES OVER:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2100524&cid=35924608
... apk
LOL No, I'm APK!
P.S. => SHUT UP IMPOSTER! You're probably tomhudson!
Would time we start to fight back ? Maybe injecting false location in that file, like putting place that we did no really visit. Hmmm, wonder if putting place's like
overseas terrorist training camp could have people knocking down your door.
http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2103420&cid=35936560
THEN? Simple rinse, lather, & repeat... until you understand it, tomhudson.
APK
The iPhone log changes all of this. If you get your phone from your employer the employer has access to (and probably the right to) this information. It is not just access to your phone, but imagine you've synced your personal iPhone with a company computer at any time? Or what if it not your employer, but your (ex) husband's computer? Also, it is much easier for a lawyer in a civil case to request the information, as they don't have to involve the telecom as a part. Or what if you're a foreigner simply crossing the border to the USA? (Clearly, there are US government agencies who would love to get position tracking of every single iPhone owner who crosses the US border.)
It doesn't really matter how exact the information is, the point is that this is a change in how easily accessible the information is, and who can can access it.
All this proves is just how out of the loop and naive Steve Jobs has become. Of course they're tracking your location. It's just too damned easy to do and to valuable not to. Given time I expect phones will begin listening to our conversations and tallying word counts into non-specific information to sell to ad agencies.
I'M APK and so's my wife!
The Unique Device Identifier *IS* tied to your name. They are tracking your phone which is directly tied to you.
Phone > Unique Device Identifier > Provider > Your Account > You.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
So I suppose what Jobs is saying is, technically, true: Apple isn't tracking you. They're just tracking your phone.
Not necessarily. Yes, I agree the language seems to leave that possibility open, but a key question is: what is the "unique device identifier"? That could be a serial number, but it could also be something innocuous, like a random UUID periodically generated by the phone, then discarded after a small time interval. That would allow them to "track your phone" in the sense that they could reliably distinguish unique phones (128-bit pseudorandom numbers from a half decent generator with half decent seeding should never collide), while maintaining the promised anonymity since they can't tell which phone generated which UUID.
Another poster up above suggests Apple has some things which work like that. It would be good to see Apple clarify this part of the privacy policy.
http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2103420&cid=35936560
Now, just click on that link there, & TRY to read it (and of course, take it to heart & understand it)... ok tomhudson?
APK
P.S.=> Being an off-topic trolling scumbag must not be easy for you, is it? The worst part is, you're NOT very good @ it, are you?? Nope... apk
But Microsoft has many government contracts. And Red Hat. And Google is trying to get one.
We're doomed.
Sure they do. They just need to ask first*. I've got a number of apps on my Droid which use root access (SetCPU, Titanium Backup, and Adfree, to name a few) to accomplish their primary purpose, and I frankly have no idea what these things are actually doing.
*: Sometimes they need to ask. The first root hack I used on my Droid 1 involved simply using adb to replace su with a binary that just blindly granted root access, without confirmation or even notification. It worked fine, but specifying which apps were and were not allowed to run as root was beyond my control. Lately, with complete ROMs, it's better -- su asks first. But assuming that it will do so on all rooted Android devices fallacious.
Kid-proof tablet..
Let's just look into the source code to see how much it tracks .......
oh wait .....
The carrier (and, by extension, law enforcement if they have any inclination) are ALREADY tracking you all the time, in real time, and have done since the dawn of the mobile phone age and the advent of cell towers.
Why it's suddenly horrific when Apple builds a product that keeps a list of cell towers in a DEVICE-LOCAL file is beyond me. It's a cache. It makes locational work faster. I'm all for it.
If you don't want The Man to know where you are JUST IN CASE you're on a slippery slope toward totalitarianism somehow, DON'T CARRY A POWERED-ON MOBILE PHONE WITH YOU. It has shit all to do with Apple or anything Apple has designed.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Under the administration of Pres. George Walker Bush, an Executive Order extend Immunity of Prosecution to the CEO of Americans Telephone and Telegraph (ATT) from ALL claims from Local, State, and Federal Entitites regarding ANY and ALL Laws of Local, State and Federal Jurisdiction.
President Barak H. Obama has certified and extended the Bush Executive Order.
How sweet it is.
So, hyperthetically, CEO of Apple Steven P. Jobs is being chauffeured through San Pablo, Chile, to a "MEETING" when a little girl on the street presents herself.
Jobs: "STOP. I want HER!"
Chauffeur: "But Mr. Jobs. This one is only 4 years old."
Jobs: "FUCK YOU. DO YOU WANT TO LIVE? STOP THE CAR SO I CAN KILL HER AND GET HER LIVER YOU FAGOT!"
Oh. The explicitives of the Rich and Famous now days. And an exzemption for all ethics, laws and moralities.
Good points here - the db is clearly tracking nearby cell towers and not the phone itself, as you say. This db may well be used solely for location lookups, though we have no real evidence of what it's actually used for, AFAIK. In any case, Apple has stated that location data (wi-fi IDs as well as cell IDs) is only transmitted to Apple when the Location Services switch is on, which sounds reasonable enough to me.
What I'm still curious about is, why does this history go back so far? Surely only your recent location history would be of much benefit for lookups - does it really need to keep track of where you were a year ago, to the point of even backing up this location log?
Secondly, why are there multiple entries for cell towers? A location cache for fast lookups would need store only one entry per cell tower (as I think someone said the Android equivalent has), but apparently consolidated.db keeps multiple entries for each cell tower, which seems redundant for a lookup cache.
And finally, there are the timestamps associated with each entry. Can anyone tell me why timestamps might be of use, in a lookup cache? I can't think of any good use for them. While consolidated.db may well be used as a location cache, it seems to me it must be used for more than that as well, or Apple wouldn't have bothered to record multiple, timestamped entries, let alone kept it around, fully backed up, for so long. Apple could surely keep its own log of your location, if you have enabled Location Services and allowed your phone to tell them, but might they perhaps be storing this history and transmitting some/all of it when/if you eventually do allow it?
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
I just found a copy of the class-action lawsuit. What Apple does and doesn't do will (hopefully) come out in court.
Just in case no one has already done it....I'm calling "bullshit" on this one!
-Oz
Here's what I just did:
1: I downloaded the application which demonstrates this feature. It worked.
2: I went into iTunes and choose "Encrypt my backup". I synced my iPhone.
3: I ran the application again. It didn't work any more.
I'm safe: I neither buy nor use Apple hardware because I'm afraid someone might steal my liver.
Well, in most countries anyway. Here in the Netherlands, they are mandated by law to keep records for I believe at least 12 months. The sad thing is, those records aren't much better than what's reportedly found on iPhones, but it is used in court cases to "prove" where you've been. Although you can't say that makes the tracking on the iPhone harmless, I shouldn't trust on wiping or poisoning that database on your device, if you wanted to have an alibi for anything the government wants to accuse you of. They'll simply request (I wish it was a subpoena, but the USA isn't the only country where digital rights are neglected) tower data from your telco if your phone isn't helping them.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
how's that reality distortion field going there?
the man thinks the Jedi Mind Trick works on the general public.
sadly, i suspect it does.
Google assigns you a unique device ID (rather than the "Unique Device ID") to use the location services, but "this number is in no way associated with the device’s IMEI, the user’s name, or other information."
The risk with iPhone is that anyone who gets a hold of your phone can see where you've been -- jealous ex-husbands and whatnot. It is useful to have a cache of recent locations, but storing them for months and years is not necessary or wise. Even if you do return to a place you visited a year ago that is still in your cache, I'm sure the iPhone will requery the service in case the information is stale.
"Unless your Android device is rooted, which is common."
Ooops, no, it is not common. By any chance. :)
Again, I wish you had backed up your claims with actual data
Look:
stats.cyanogenmod.com (by far the most popular android mod): 176,665 Total installs.
Last Android numbers: 3 BILLION installs. 350.000 DAILY installs. (http://venturebeat.com/2011/04/14/google-hits-3-billion-android-app-installs-2-months-after-hitting-2-billion/)
Which means the total number of CM installs is less than 1/2 of *new* *daily* Android users. ;)
Do the math, its roughly 0.005% of all the Android userbase. Yeah right, common, you were saying?
if you go abroad, then any random enforcers have access to this.
how? by taking the phone.. they don't need approval from your goverment because you're hauling the full database of where the device has been with you..
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Apple doesn't track anyone.. the database is just there for future purposes , for when Steve reveals himself as The 'Antichrist' ;-)
Lest you think this entirely facetious.. do remember what the first Apple sold for
The last /. story on this said that safari was tracking. It stated 10.6 and Safari on Windows. Was that an error, really only a misinterpretation of iOS as Safari by some journalist? Or not? Can someone please point me to how Safari tracks location? What location data it logs? And if so where it stores/sends that data? Thanks.
Seriously, do we need a class action lawsuit for everything? The only people that benefit are lawyers and it will have little to no effect on Apple.
Guys,
Both IOS and Android were written by programmers, who tend to LOG EVERYTHING.
I provide a vertical, niche market web-based software stack. If somebody asked me if I was tracking them, I'd chuckle and say "No". Because I'm not. I don't care much what users do, we don't do any data mining, it's your data, so why do I want to look at it?
I'm far too busy fixing bugs and tweaking features to care about mining data! Which brings me to my point: we have extensive logs and can look up every button click, image download, or file upload/download/transfer, going back for years. We've only used that data for fixing bugs, and occasionally for forensics. (EG: at legal or administrative request)
So we aren't "tracking" anyone, but just about everything is logged. And ALL INTERNET BASED PRODUCTS ARE LIKE THAT. I know sure as anything that /. logs my IP address article details, and a few other nifty bits of data everytime I do *anything* *at* *all* here.
News would be proof that Apple is doing something with this data, which I honestly doubt. But even so, there are a million ways you give up your identity every day, online, even if you are "anonymous".
In fact, your actual identity may not matter. Much of what marketers want to know is the various correlations between the different things you are interested in. If you bought a specialty folding bike, what else did you buy? In this light, your name/address is largely irrelevant.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
PS: Forgot the closing "i" tag. Bollucks!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
something Android fanatics seem curiously unwilling to discuss.
Amazingly you have Android users discussing it with you...I'm an android user. Have I rooted around in my phone? Yes. Are there things on my phone that I dont want? No. Can I wipe my phone clean and install a new OS flavored the way I want it, with only the applications I want and storing only the data I want? Yes.
The whole point of an open source OS being more secure is that, If it for some reason is sending off data I dont want it to, I can MODIFY the OS to stop doing it. On the other hand, you're fucked with your closed source OS's.
While I agree with you in general, you should have compared the Cyanogenmod installs with the number of Android phones out there, not with the number of Android apps.
You only need to install CM once on every phone, but you may install dozens of apps.
Whoops. sorry, my bad. You are absolutely right, thats only app installs. That 0.005% is totally wrong. But yeah, at 350.000 phone activations per day, you get my point :)
Bullshit.
I may be bad with names, but I'll never forget your IP address
..and then don't know which geek blogger has got hold of them until after the blog announcement????
PS: Forgot the closing "i" tag. Bollucks!
And I thought you were trying to present some sort of dual /schizophrenic stream of consciousness type of effect.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
of the three you mention are a confirmed branch of the NSA.
then don't accept their conditions. If they say "we may track you to enhance our services" it means "we track you wherever we see it fit". What is there to misunderstand? Anyway, implicitely your location information will be stored as part of access logs etc.. I personally always assume that google maps keeps server logs for technical purposes.
I'm software developer / architect, and no, we don't "log everything" neither do we "tend to log everything".. We could not afford i.
Only tiny site that nobody uses could afford tracking every single button click and logging that for years. It's way to expensive.
Unless you are going to sell this info, that is.
Proof that Apple has sold it could come from either Apple or the company that bought that info, why would either of them admit it?
we track things.
Steve Jobs is spouting pure BULLSHIT when he say they don't track anyone.The evidence says otherwise.Tell another whopper Steve.That's I won't own ANY Apple product.
Geek Hillbilly
According to the Guardian, the facts are:
1. Apple does indeed record location information (implied by visible cell towers) indefinitely, but this information is anonyimised. The Guardian article states that no physical address for the phone is recorded (others have posted to the contrary here though).
2. Google does collect similar and anonymised information, but only on an opt-in basis, to a more limited extent, and "in a form that is hard to access" (encrypted?).
So, I'd say Apple is doing something that they shouldn't be doing, and they should stop. Google will collect data if you let them, which seems reasonable. The only really objectionable part is Steve Jobs engaging in a debate on what Google do, when he should be focusing on fixing the problem with the iPhone.
RS
Nothing to see here. Ignore the flaming tanker over there.
I think I read that Android does this too and that Google is also denying it.
I believe everything Steve Jobs says. ;)
Why are Apple and Google tracking smart phone users?
It isn't intended as an anti-theft device. If that was the case, it would have been advertised instead of hidden, the way anti-theft devices are advertised as features on cars.
Such records would be handy for government investigators. Maybe they did it at the government's request, which would explain why they have been silent about it. Still, I would believe a financial motivation more than a tin foil hat story.
Maybe they decided to collect the information first and find a way to exploit it later.
I've got an iPad - 1st gen, wifi only. When I'm connected via WiFi, the system does its best to figure out where I am from my ip address, and pulls down a wack of ssid -> location mappings. Later, when driving around with the iPad, with WiFi turned on, and auto connect turned off, I can see my location (admittedly with a fairly large uncertainty circle around it) being updated as I drive around. This cached data makes this trick possible. On an iPhone, you get the same thing - it has to use GPS, WiFi, or cell towers to sort out where you are. Its going to receive the cell tower ids anyways, so if it has the tower ids cached with their locations, it can save on battery life. GPS is a relatively expensive operation (from a battery perspective), so being able to use info the phones needs to operate anyways is often good enough for the apps that are requesting location data.
Problem solved
http://www.techtosh.com/untrackered-clear-automatic-logging-of-locations/
& don't forget to change your root password.
http://www.iphone-my.com/2011/04/how-to-change-iphones-root-password-in.html
Good old Steve, trying to pull the Jedi mind-trick on all of us. Remember Star Wars, when ObiWan tells the stormtrooper that "these aren't the droid you're looking for?"
I do this with my kids all the time...
"Dad, are you eating a cookie?..." To which I reply: "You didn't see a cookie." Followed by my poor,deprived child: "Oh. Never mind."
But Steve, REALLY? The file is CLEARLY tracking us. Mr. Jobs pull your head out of your arse, and just admit that you want to rule the world! At the very least, admit that what you're doing is unpalatable to most of us - otherwise, you would have made it a selling point.
Just because you can collect certain data doesn't mean you should. Vendors should try to really anonymize and not keep logs on peoples browsers and mapping habits. You can sell just as good data if it is anonymous as you can tied to a specific person.
Not if you encrypt the iPhone backup on the PC. Which you should.
I get why it might want to store where you've been in the last day for features such as that, but two questions remain:
1) Why does it save a full year's worth of this location information? What purpose does that serve?
2) Why does it still collect this information even when you explicitly turn off all location services?
I'm sure Anyone is relieved, and he can use his apple devices without worry, but what about the rest of us?
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
Else they would have found out what processes actually access the file days ago. Wannabe Haxors.