Bitcoin Used For the Narcotics Trade

An anonymous reader writes "A story on Aljazeera tells how bitcoin is being used to pay for cocaine, marijuana and other drugs at various eBay style drug websites. From the article: 'Two US senators are asking federal authorities to crack down on an online narcotics market that accepts "virtual" currency. The "Dark Web," an anonymous and secretive online community that trades in heroin, cocaine and methamphetamines among other drugs, has been operating unhindered for months.' Who said bitcoin is not used in the real world?"

Comments

It's not just Bitcoin.

[FooAtWFU]

Most of these alternative-currencies (Bitcoin, e-gold, etc) find themselves on the shady side of things pretty quickly - especially money-laundering and the like. This is not at all surprising, really.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of these alternative-currencies (Bitcoin, e-gold, etc) find themselves on the shady side of things pretty quickly - especially money-laundering and the like. This is not at all surprising, really.

It's going to be that way until we finally repeal the idiotic War on Drugs and admit that in a so-called "free country" it is wrong to ever tell consenting adults what they may do with their own bodies in their own homes. War on Drugs is a total failure anyway. Anybody who wants drugs can get them. It has done nothing to stop them.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then I'd say Bitcoin and the like should already be accepted as actual currency, because guess what other things are used in exactly those ways?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

The New York Times? Sounds a little too much like The terrorists to me. I don't have any interest in listening to what a bunch of terrorist sympathizing talking heads have to say.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[countertrolling]

BAH! Who needs bitcoin when the regular banks got your back?

The entire market in contraband is too big to punish without trashing the economy even more... They don't want to stop drugs, they want to control them... It's the controlled substances act

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[somersault]

People are bad enough with alcohol and cigarettes. I'd hate to see what happened if you let people have unrestricted access to harder drugs. Most people can barely look after themselves as it is, let alone the children that those type of people tend to churn out, Idiocracy style.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[somersault]

Poker chips? Dirty laundry? TELL ME!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[gad_zuki!]

Right, because its the currencies' issue. Its not like I've ever bought bags upon bags of pot with dollars and euros.

What would be surprising would be currency that wasn't ever used for illicit things. It doesn't and will never exist. Especially with conservative philosophies that don't let us decrim or legalize mostly safe things like pot or ecstasy.

Open your eyes, all these guys are doing is playing up "War on Drugs" bullshit so they can get larger budgets next year so that a SWAT team can no-knock your home and shoot you when you try to defend yourself thinking you're being robbed.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[crank-a-doodle]

Have you ever seen a dude high on on some drug fighting? NO! they're all like peace bro! I think drugs might be a social service!:P but seriously drugs don't kill people, people kill people!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. We should continue to punish responsible users because some idiots might not be able to handle freedom. Makes total logical sense.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Hatta]

How does this work? Bitcoin is anonymous right until you receive the contraband. If you're making anonymous drug trades with someone on the internet, there's even less guarantee that they're not a cop than if you're working with someone you know. If you have to receive the drugs in person, the extra anonymity doesn't help you.

And at this point, why are drug dealers the first to get on board with Bitcoin? Bitcoins are only valuable if you can trade them for something useful. If you can buy drugs with Bitcoins, that makes them valuable to the cusomer. But what will the drug dealer do with the Bitcoins?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Ecuador]

Ehm, I don't think you can put e-gold, a gold-bullion backed currency (that was used for money laundering) together with bitcoin.
And we've had enough bitcoin articles. Ok, I know the people who started bitcoin do everything they can to give it value and become rich, but enough with the slashvertisement!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[s73v3r]

Nobody's saying it's the currency's fault. Its just that such a setup as Bitcoin has is quite attractive to those who would like a little more discretion in their spending habits. Bitcoin provides that. So it's no surprise that it would be a target for money laundering and illicit sales.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[emmette]

Neal Stephenson nailed it over 12 years ago in Cryptonomicon

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

People are bad enough with alcohol and cigarettes

Yeah, and did people fight and die in the streets over alcohol when it was illegal, or after it was legal again? Did ruthless violent gangs form around the alcohol trade when it was illegal, or after it was legal again? What funded Al Capone again?

Abandon the fantasy. It has never worked. It won't work. When an idea not only fails to work but has a tremendous cost to society, it's time to admit the idea has failed. You haven't a leg to stand on. Maybe this is a religious belief for you because there are no facts that support you.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

re-up?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[PitaBred]

And the solution to that is to fight an unwinnable war that increases violence all over, drives the profit of making drugs higher, and spends billions of our tax dollars to make shit worse for us?

Why don't we treat drugs like the public health problem they are, rather than something to be "fought"? You can't protect everyone from themselves, but you can help them help themselves. And you'd have a lot fewer women and children beheaded because of attitudes like yours.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Have you ever seen a dude high on on some drug fighting? NO! they're all like peace bro! I think drugs might be a social service!:P but seriously drugs don't kill people, people kill people!

My brother-in-law was 16 when he was murdered by an acquaintance who was high on drugs at the time.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

More importantly, bitcoin isn't that cool anymore. The initial wave of guys got in and generated hundreds of bitcoins an hour. Last week, I set up my work laptop crunching via one of the more popular co-ops. Over a week, I generated 1 bit CENT. That's about 7 cents real money. I tried to transfer that bit cent, and was told that I couldn't, because there's a one bit cent tariff for all transactions. I know GPU is much, much faster, but we're looking at sinking multiple real-world cents worth of electricity into every bit cent that's generated, and there's a finite quantity to mine, most of which is already in the hands of BC's founders. Why exactly is this a good thing? Count me out.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[dave420]

That's why the root causes should be addressed. This pathetic notion of just trying to cover up the symptoms while leaving the causes unaddressed only serves to make things worse. Legalise the drugs, but make damn-well sure that people are not left behind by society. Poor people should be cared for, the sick should be treated, and society as a whole should do everything it can to make every member as productive as possible. Yes, the toll of drug abuse on society can be horrific, but it doesn't always have to be that way. Most of the damaging aspects of drug abuse arise simply because drugs are illegal - people feel they can't get treatment for addiction (at least at a price they can afford), and due to the nature of the black market prices are blown all out of proportion, and standards of quality are never maintained. Prohibition does not work. It just gives power to criminals, and throws normal people to the mercy of those same criminals. Surely society should be there to help people.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[bhagwad]

Your brilliant insight of relating two things because their names sound similar has made me a huge fan of you :D . Now I look at Obama with new eyes!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[icebraining]

Drug usage dropped here in Portugal when it was decriminalized.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

And at this point, why are drug dealers the first to get on board with Bitcoin?

From what I've seen, a lot of the time, a drug dealer is what happens when a problem with authority meets get-rich-quick gullibility, and a smalltime drug producer is where those things intersect with geeky techno-enthusiasm.

Bitcoin itself is rather shady in nature. Essentially it is an obfuscated pyramid/ponzi scheme (here are some tokens in a database: they are redeemable for nothing -- but you should be willing to trade goods, services, and real money in return for them being transferred to your account because we're requiring people to waste more and more computer resources and electricity to have them added to their accounts out of nothing!).

It's only natural that it should attract a shady element, especially a gullible, anti-authority, geeky techno-enthusiast shady element.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[infodragon]

It's not about the users. The users typically become addicted to whatever substance they are using. It's those that control the supply, they control the users. In other words, it's power. No matter what side you look at..

It boils down to power and who is going to wield that power. You find a way to decouple power from narcotics and then you can have a free society in which people make their own choice. In any other situation the lever of addiction will be pulled to the greatest effect to line the pockets of the one who's hand is on that lever. More often than not, the hand on the lever is in reality placed on a gun with somebody else having to deal with the receiving end. Police officer, drug lord or middle man; they are all fighting for that power.

In any case the person consuming the narcotic is giving power to somebody. The addiction drives them to get it however they can which means that power goes indiscriminately to whoever provides the quickest/cheapest fix. The casual user is capable of making more informed decision on how they obtain but it still eventually gets to a drug lord; exception being home grown stuff, which is a very small portion of the opiate trade.

To say the least I'm tired of the mantra "have you ever seen a dude high on some drug fighting." Set aside PHP for a moment and then have you ever seen some dude wanting to get high fighting, stealing, murdering...? If you haven't just open a news paper of your nearest metropolitan area.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[blueg3]

Exchanges like Mt. Gox will trade dollars for bitcoins and vice versa.

There was an article recently on a popular drug-purchasing website that is hosted as a Tor service and uses bitcoins. The drugs are sent to you in the mail. This of course gives you no anonymity at all. Only the money and the website are anonymous.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Generally alternative currencies outside of the control of governments quickly are put to their most valuable uses.

Recouping the deadweight loss from illegalization of the drug trade is one area.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[moderatorrater]

They'll trade the bitcoin for actual currency. The extra step here is that there's an organization that buys and sells bitcoin that can give them anonymity. It's essentially like using baseball cards instead of cash: the baseball cards' value fluctuates, but it's stable enough to get you close to what you want and there's a third party willing to buy and sell the cards when they're not being used in a drug transaction.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, crack heads are calm and peacful....

Stupid pothead.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[StikyPad]

You've obviously never seen a tweaker.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[dave420]

Use them somehow - either sell them for actual cash, or use them to buy what they want. The whole point of this is that it's a great way to launder money.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Any rare commodity will yield power to the one in possession, with the authority over it's distribution to give. I propose that if these items were freely available, there would be no power to be held, and delegated over it's distribution.

- AC to not void Mod Points.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[evildarkdeathclicheo]

The more we protect people from themselves, the more likely they are to stay in the gene pool and continue to breed, Idiocracy style. I'm all for rules and laws that protect people from others, but we really need to let the stupid people kill themselves off as much as possible, and restrict breeding rights. Seriously, we have plenty of people on this planet, it's time to get stingy. -W

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[davidbrit2]

Have you ever seen a dude high on on some drug fighting? NO! they're all like peace bro! I think drugs might be a social service!:P but seriously drugs don't kill people, people kill people!

Do a Google search for "daddy ate my eyes". Go on.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[julesh]

I know GPU is much, much faster, but we're looking at sinking multiple real-world cents worth of electricity into every bit cent that's generated

It's not only much faster, it's also much more energy efficient. You can make money bitcoin mining, as long as you have the hardware already (paying off your hardware costs seems unlikely). So, if you have another application for a cluster of high performance GPUs, bitcoin mining on the side can be a way of recouping some of your expense.

there's a finite quantity to mine, most of which is already in the hands of BC's founders

AIUI, the amount available to mine grows at an approximately linear rate over time (50 bitcoins every 10 minutes approx).

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[quarkoid]

And my grandfather smoked 40 a day and lived till he was 97. That doesn't mean smoking's good for you.

Whilst I have every sympathy with your situation, there are exceptions to every rule and quoting one case as evidence against a general theory serves nobody well.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[DerekLyons]

And at this point, why are drug dealers the first to get on board with Bitcoin?

Because they can be moved around completely anonymously. This is an extraordinarily valuable property for people wishing to hide their assets from Da Man.
 

But what will the drug dealer do with the Bitcoins?

Spend 'em. Isn't that the point? And as TFA shows, just because a legitimate market doesn't exist, doesn't mean an illegitimate one doesn't either.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[TheLink]

As you already know not all drugs are the same, so lumping all the illegal drugs together is silly. Drugs certainly do kill people.

Marijuana might be relatively safe[1], but many other recreational drugs are not.

There are good reasons why many legal drugs require prescriptions.

[1] And even then it'll likely be not as safe once legalized since
1) mass farms would grow them using phosphate fertilizers and so they'd have more polonium in them than the "organic" sort. Having ash containing polonium stuck in your lungs is bad for you. Maybe marijuana might not concentrate polonium as much as tobacco, but who wants to find out the hard way? ;)

2) Philip Morris et all will include their additives...
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-07/ohs-orp072403.php

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Nethemas the Great]

Actually I think you can. The point isn't whether or not the value of the currency is backed by something tangible and valuable. The point is the perceived need and usage of non-government issued currency. One of Bitcoin's motivators for instance was to hedge against the reckless, monetary policies that led to the most recent economic collapse of the western world. E-Gold was established for rather similar purposes. Certainly currency can be and is used for black market transactions, it doesn't really matter who issues it. That it is being used for such things suggests that the currency has utility and real world value. As far as we know this isn't true for ISK or any other game universe virtual currencies even though exchange between "real" currency and "virtual" currency is taking place.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Plugh]

"It's going to be that way until we finally repeal the idiotic War on Drugs and admit that in a so-called "free country" it is wrong to ever tell consenting adults what they may do with their own bodies in their own homes."
Amen, brother. If you're serious about wanting liberty in your lifetime, check my .sig... and join us. Drug policy is important to many of us.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[joelmax]

Well now... you can't assume all drugs == pot... doesn't work that way.. go hang out with a methhead and see how mellow they are..

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

You would have been better off simply buying a few dollar's worth of bitcoin. It would have saved you money on your power bill, and you would have had about 20-30 bit-cents.

If more people did the cost analysis up-front, and purchased coins rather than spending MORE money trying to mine them, the cost of both would sync up. Since the processing power won't drop quickly, the value of bitcoins would rise so that it became cost-effective to mine them.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Machtyn]

While the two points are extremes of both sides, the 97% in the middle is still a large number. There are countless numbers of messed up families, kids, parents, etc, due to the direct result of drugs. Even if the drug trade were legal, we'd still have a large number of so-called consenting adults not hurting anybody but themselves actively hurting everyone and themselves.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[JinjaontheNile]

What on Earth are you on????

Have you ever seen anyone on Speed? They are maniacs
While people high on Downers might not be aggressive, they most certainly are when they are going through withdrawal.
Questing takes on a whole new meaning for people who need to get high again.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[infodragon]

Assuming your statement is valid you still have not have addressed the addicts doing whatever they can to obtain the substance in question. This leads to quite a bit of petty and violent crimes.

I believe your statement is not valid... It is the addiction that removes freedom. A majority of the commodities in question have a strong tendency to remove free will from those consuming, i.e. addiction. This is not something easily broken and WILL be capitalized by those seeking power, leading to more violence.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just bitcoin, any "points" system, eg Xbox live, Nintendo, Zynga, and virtual currencies inside MMO's are used as well. Bitcoin isn't even mentioned in TFA.

Here's an example using a MMO I used to play:
Mabinogi - The game operates using in-game currency (gold) and Nexon points which are basically worth 1 cent.
Someone wanting to launder money through the game (drug money, stolen paypal accounts, stolen credit cards, etc) logs into the game and buys as much gachapon as they can get, and then trade this to another account. Source of money is now hidden.
Then they use that account and sell all the gachapon for gold, lots of gachapon are trash items, but the rare stuff fetches a profit.
Then they sell the gold to the chinese gold farmers for cash (there's no shortage of these) via PayPal.

That's just one way it's done. You can even cut out the entire game by just buying the game cards from foreigners and selling the numbers from them those under another identity to anyone who plays the game.

If the US (or any other country) wants to cut down on money laundering via virtual currencies, they need to start by banning "gold" and "points" systems that have a real world tradeable value... but this won't happen as long as there are fees on micropayment systems like PayPal. The point systems are a way to circumvent transaction fees themselves. I suppose one way of doing this is making it illegal to resell codes from any prepaid system.

At first it was eBay and "ebooks" before all digital downloads were banned. On eBay the more pressing problem was that it created feedback fraud. (How else do chinese sellers flogging counterfeits manage to be powersellers?) Most of this fraud has moved to south asian hosted websites that the US can't touch, and most Americans are too stupid to find if it doesn't show up in google.

But the prepaid point cards are still a large source of money laundering.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Americano]

Modern medicine has.

They even have a name for it: Stimulant Induced Psychosis.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[HogGeek]

"Even with the alcohol and prescription drugs being legal, we still have a large number of so-called consenting adults not hurting anybody but themselves actively hurting everyone and themselves."

FTFY

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[babblefrog]

But are there more messed up families due to drugs than there are due to drug prohibition? I doubt it.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Jane Q. Public]

"People are bad enough with alcohol and cigarettes. I'd hate to see what happened if you let people have unrestricted access to harder drugs. Most people can barely look after themselves as it is, let alone the children that those type of people tend to churn out, Idiocracy style."

Except that it doesn't happen that way. Places that have decriminalized some drugs (like the Netherlands) and even all drugs (Portugal et al.) have experienced NO significant rise in drug use! Further, there are a lot of societal benefits: lower crime rate, dramatically lowered costs for courts and incarceration, no need for as many police, etc.

Your comment reminds me of an elderly woman I know. She plays Bingo with friends regularly. She tells me that whenever she talks about decriminalization, she gets shocked reactions from all the other old ladies. Once, one of her friends said, "But if drugs are legal, everybody will start taking drugs!"

She looked at her friend calmly, and said "Really? Which ones would YOU take?"

Shut her right up.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[corbettw]

What would be surprising would be currency that wasn't ever used for illicit things. It doesn't and will never exist.

Sure it can. Just use a virtual currency, but make sure the evil bit isn't set.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[JinjaontheNile]

OMG, That sounded to bad to be true so I had to google it
I have never heard of that story and I wish I hadn't searched it.
Heck, I wish it went to Goatse or something

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

people kill people!

My brother-in-law was 16 when he was murdered by an acquaintance

This is insightful?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently what you think of as being "drugs" is just pot.

My friend, you have yet to experience the 'fun' of having someone on cocaine or a bad mushrooms trip take issue with you. These people have serious problems. The problem tends to be your face... and it's entirely irrational.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[corbettw]

Great, now we have to ban baseball cards to protect our kids!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know all those vacant foreclosed homes. Those are anonymous addresses that are usable by anyone. Find one that not being used and you have a nice dead drop.

This is a demonstration of why prohibition does not work, ever. People will always find away around the authorities. Even in a closed society like China and the USSR, black markets flourished and as soon as something is prohibited by the government, that becomes a new business opportunity. In an attempt to limit the black market, the US Government has been slowly moving us towards a police state.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[JinjaontheNile]

Fox News? Sounds a little too much like The Republicans to me. I don't have any interest in listening to what a bunch of terrorist sympathizing talking heads have to say.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

Meanwhile, entire populations of foreign countries are buried in mass graves, if they're lucky, dissolved in a barrel if they're not.

A factory I work with has a customer in Monterrey, Mexico. They had advised the factory's sales director not to visit the city because the violent crime rate is so out of control. For all intents and purposes, Monterrey is a developed city, and it has gone backward very rapidly largely due to the funds and weapons flowing from the U.S. government. The nation is at war with itself and we feed the fire with our abolitionist laws.

Certainly the death of your brother-in-law is a tragedy in itself, but the fact that it occurred supports the argument that the drug laws don't work. It always has been and still is easier for young people to get illegal drugs than legal ones.

But on the flip side, what about the Iraq veteran who was recently killed by a swat team who thought he was a drug dealer, when in fact he was a working class husband trying to survive? That family is devastated and the kid is going to suffer terribly for the rest of his life. Without a doubt this is a family that would still be together, the father alive, the kid some semblance of normal, if we did not have a 'war on drugs'.

I know we want to believe that passing a law solves a problem, but in this case the drug laws create far more problems than they solve. The violence worldwide, the violence at home. I have a friend who went through college with a guy who ended up becoming a public defender. He tells these terrible stories of people hopelessly addicted to meth (he's in a rural area), with terrible health, no teeth; visibly, clearly in a state of helplessness, sentenced to 1 year or more for possession of a drug. This is solving problems? Making people's lives better? Improving our society? Even Pat Roberston is beginning to see the failure of these policies. Surely you can, too?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[babblefrog]

I don't get the money laundering. Isn't laundering money to make it look like it came from a legitimate, legal source? How does bitcoin help you do that? Seems to me that bitcoin is pretty equivalent to cash that way.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

How about BJS, Substance Abuse and Treatment, State and Federal Prisoners, 1997?

Percentage of State and Federal prison inmates who reported being under the influence of drugs at time of their offense, 1997

Federal Prison Inmates:
Violent offenses: 24.5% of which:
Murder: 29.4% of which there were too few cases to permit calculation for negligent manslaughter
Sexual assault: 7.9%
Robbery: 27.8%
Assault: 13.8%
Other: 15.9%

State Prison Inmates:
Violent offenses: 29.0% of which:
Murder: 26.8% of which 17% were negligent manslaughter
Sexual assault: 21.5%
Robbery: 39.9%
Assault: 24.2%
Other: 29.0%

Feel free to Google more up-to-date statistics.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[JWSmythe]

    You know, I was reading a news story about a "dry" county here in the US. Possession of alcohol was illegal.

    There were locals who were very insistent that alcohol would cause civilization to collapse. Worse yet, they were discussing plans Walmart had to open up a store there. It was to have a full grocery store and pharmacy. They were predicting that people would go into the store, buy prescription drugs and alcohol, and go back to the parking lot to consume both. Moments later, they warned, these same people would come in and go on a shooting rampage.

    People are generally afraid of the unknown. Oh my gosh, what happens if you don't limit people's access to the evil drug "alcohol"?

    People do fine. There aren't daily shootings at Walmart because people can buy beer and prescription drugs. The world hasn't ended because people can buy DXM laced cough syrup.

    I hate to break the bad news to anyone, but you can easily buy any drug you'd like in just about any city in the world. No prescription required. Just look around, or ask around, and you'll find it. And most people never buy it. Even when presented with drugs, they aren't interested. It's a free economy, without restrictions. If the demand was there, every house in America would be supplied. Just because you can't go down to Walmart, Walgreens, or 7-11, doesn't mean that the supply pipeline isn't already in place and operating normally. Street drugs don't require a prescription, or even a photo ID to prove you're over 21. There is open and unrestricted access to it.

    There is only two things that are broken in the hard drug sales and distribution system. First, the government loses out on the ability to collect billions of dollars per year in sales taxes. Second, the quality control, to ensure the drugs purchased are what was advertised. They can and will be cut down with fillers for profit. It's not like that doesn't happen in regular retail products though. Unless you think melamine laced food products are *good* for you, or that Taco Bell's 100% meat really should mean up to 30% meat and 70% filler.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

there's a finite quantity to mine, most of which is already in the hands of BC's founders

AIUI, the amount available to mine grows at an approximately linear rate over time (50 bitcoins every 10 minutes approx).

What are you talking about? The amount available to mine is DECREASING, since there is a finite total quantity and about 1/3rd have already been allocated. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_bitcoins_over_time.png
What is increasing it is the total supply of bitcoins (at 50 bitcoins per 10 mins currently), but that increase will slow down as you see from the graph.
The founders already have a good percentage of the TOTAL POSSIBLE bitcoins.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

They sell them for cash

https://mtgox.com/

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[crank-a-doodle]

Holy-fucking-manoly! i meant that in a funny way but faaaaack! that was just fucked up!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[StikyPad]

I've never written a check for drugs.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[cayenne8]

Even if the drug trade were legal, we'd still have a large number of so-called consenting adults not hurting anybody but themselves actively hurting everyone and themselves.

Sure you would, but at least if drugs weren't illegal, we could save the billions and billions spent on prisons, and enforcement and redirect some of it to helping those who do want help (and wouldn't be as fearful of coming out of the shadows for help), and also go towards paying off the US debt....not to mention, if you take that much profit out of criminal hands, violence should decrease accordingly.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Ecuador]

You could exchange your e-gold with gold, as you could with any gold-standard currency, you can exchange fiat money for services/goods by government guarantee. You can even exchange casino chips with money, guaranteed by the casino that issues them. Then there is monopoly money, bitcoins, etc. If some people collect most monopoly money and start a big campaign to give them value, it does not make them comparable to the aforementioned forms of currency.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[X0563511]

Since when was PHP a drug? I know it should be restricted and all, but I don't think it fits!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Nihn]

many are murdered by people who are 100% sober, trying to use the death of someone else to back your point of view is in all reality a pathetic attempt to get a one up one someone else. If you really cared about your brother in law you would NEVER use his passing as a tool in an argument...

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[gearsmithy]

I contest that the reason some addicts do "whatever they can to obtain the substance in question" is because the substance in question is cost-prohibitive precisely because of its legal status. Prohibition drives up prices significantly, that is not debatable. How many food addicts knocked over a liquor store last year to feed their twinkie addiction? How much violent crime is committed alcoholics specifically for the purpose of obtaining more alcohol? I don't have either of these numbers, but I would bet they agree.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[infodragon]

Correction, I was referring to PCP and my auto-type brain typed PHP. Betcha couldn't guess I was a geek! err...

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[mmcuh]

No, with the current algorithm there is a fixed amount of bitcoins that can ever be mined, and a large part of them have been mined already. After all of them have been mined there can no longer be any new coins awarded for computing block hashes, the whole reward will come from transaction fees.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never written a check for drugs.

I have. (It's a long story. I was young and naive.)

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I have. Crack-heads are particularly nasty because the don't feel much pain. It took several of us to subdue him and tie him to the stretcher to take him to the hospital. I was a paramedic at the time.

SOME drugs make people "like all peace", as you say. Others make them delusional and often violent.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[BoberFett]

And it sounds like trading in Bitcoins just became reasonable evidence for breaking down people's doors in the middle of the night.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Excuse me, but did you just imply THC is a harder drug than alcohol?

Unbelievable.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[PRMan]

Try taking $10,000+ US cash out of your account without the bank having to fill out FBI forms.

Try sending $10,000+ US worth of Bitcoins to Eastern Europe.

Just like cash, but much easier.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[infodragon]

Neither of which are nearly as addictive as opiates. Once addicted you can still function for a while, then you can no longer function in a productive manner. Your only thought is the next high. At this point you cannot provide for yourself in which, no matter how cheap, you no longer have the means and thus resort to other less savory methods. Unless you are suggesting that the government allow for the purchase of these substances with government aid.

Not to mention... What is the cost of morphine, paid by a hospital? What is the market price of same volume of heroin? Many of these substances are taken intravenously. The only way to lower cost would be to completely deregulate administration/distribution which would then provide vectors for nasty infection. The addict doesn't care how it gets in, as long as it's in, even if you hand them a needle just used on the person next to them known to have Hep-C, full blow AIDS, syphilis, gonorrhea, flesh eating staph, and INSERT FAVORITE STD HERE.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[TheRaven64]

A few years ago, I went to a local casino (it was the only place where you could have a quiet drink cheaply in the evening), and it was highly entertaining to watch people there. One person was going around every roulette table placing a £50 bet on red. Someone else walked around after him and collected the winnings. A little while later, the first person ran out of money, and the second one cashed out. They both go home, and one can say 'I lost a pile of money at the casino' while the other can say 'I won a pile of money at the casino'. There's no paper trail between the two, unless the police happen to check the casino records and see that the amount that one won was the same as the amount the other lost. This is the attraction of virtual currencies: they allow exchanges that are difficult to trace, without requiring physical presence.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[WATist]

Checks are not currency. They are a vehicle for transferring a currency.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[GooberToo]

Drug use is a family problem. Making it a criminal/family problem only makes it worse for everyone involved and does nothing to address the core problem.

Being pro-war on drugs is to be pro slavery, sex trade, murder, empowerment of the biggest pieces of shit the world can create, and actively encourages the militarization of our police forces. Absolutely nothing good comes from the war on drugs aside from eroding constitutional rights, wasting billions annually, discarding billions in taxable revenue, and training police to be as big, if not bigger thugs, than the thugs they are supposedly fighting.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[TheRaven64]

It works the same way as any other money laundering scheme. Person A wants to buy something from person B. Person A buys something unrelated from person C. Person C buys something unrelated from person B. Person B then gives the real product to person A. Ideally, the surrogate objects should have little or no real value. Casinos work well as intermediates, because one person can lose a game to the casino, while another wins, and there's no connection between them. If you trade real goods, A can then sell whatever he bought from C for significantly less than he paid (i.e. for its actual value, rather than the 10000% markup that he paid), and then (this is the best bit) offset the depreciation on assets against tax, so the entire drug purchase is a tax write-off.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[j00r0m4nc3r]

Even if the drug trade were legal, we'd still have a large number of so-called consenting adults not hurting anybody but themselves actively hurting everyone and themselves.

So we should imprison people for falling victim to basic human flaws? Drug abuse at it's heart is a social issue and should be dealt with with social and medical programs, not prison time. If I have a drug problem, how is that a crime against anyone but myself? Sure, I could drive a car while high, but that is a totally separate crime, and only one of many many ways to drive a car dangerously. You can't just outlaw every possible thing that could potentially make driving a car more dangerous. Maybe we should outlaw bees because I can drive a car with a jar full of angry bees, and that seems pretty dangerous to me. How does putting people in prison help them with their drug problem? I'm sure that once they get out of jail and their family is destroyed and they can't get a job that they'll definitely not regress back to drug abuse...

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's important to note that these are percentages of criminals who got caught. I'd bet the rate is lower among criminals who succeeded.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[j00r0m4nc3r]

again with the correlation vs. causation...
How about the US Bureau of Justice Statistics report from 2009 that says:
"According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the total prison and jail population in 2009."

Obviously being a black non-Hispanic causes you to commit crimes, so we should probably make being a black non-Hispanic a crime...

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Zaphod The 42nd]

People already have unrestricted access to drugs. Thats the whole point. The war on drugs only makes them MORE available. I really wish prohibitionists like you would realize this. What happened during Prohibition on alcohol? The gangs made TONS of money, and became a whole challenge for the police. Al Capone was finally arrested on tax evasion, because he was freaking untouchable. This country is a land of the free, and people are going to continue to demand freedom. All you can do is let them be free, or declare them criminals and lock them up. We're doing the latter now, and our prisons are filling up insanely fast.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

How exactly is it better than cash for this purpose? Bitcoin is far more traceable than cash.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[betterunixthanunix]

It is probably easier to get marijuana than it is to get alcohol or tobacco, especially if you are a teenager. Making a drug illegal does not magically stop people from obtaining or using it. The biggest deterrent to illegal drug use has been the government's widespread propaganda campaign, which has convinced people to accept without question the notion that illegal drugs are automatically worse for them than legal ones.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[quarkoid]

Percentage of State and Federal prison inmates who reported being under the influence of drugs at time of their offense, 1997

Not sure what you're saying here - looks to me like the majority of people said they weren't on drugs.

The logical conclusion to this data is that not being on drugs should be outlawed, no?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Amouth]

the numbers your quoting includes alcohol and prescription drugs, not just illegal drugs.

what would be entertaining is to see the same set but break it down between the groups.

aka of the 25-30% for violent offences what % was alcohol/controlled/S1/S2/S3/S4/S5

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Seahawk]

I'm all for looking at decriminalizing drug use, but wikipedia seems to disagree with you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#Results

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[DamnStupidElf]

I imagine the percentage of Americans who are under the influence of drugs *right now* is about 5% to 10%. This is also apparently only self-reporting of drug influence, and I imagine quite a few people are arrested while legally under the influence of alcohol.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

If you really cared about your brother in law you would NEVER use his passing as a tool in an argument...

Bullshit. So you're advocating that victims should remain silent?

First of all the parent post asked "Have you ever seen a dude high on on some drug fighting? NO! they're all like peace bro!"

So I answered yes by using my brother-in-law as an example. It's not like I mentioned his name or started a PSA featuring his image. People who use that bullshit argument are upset that they can't counter a real life example. As for caring for my brother-in-law, that's my business not yours. Technically speaking the parent asked a specific question and I gave a specific answer.

How dare you judge me? I didn't condemn the person that asked that question, nor am I attacking the people who disagree with my post except for you.

Sure I see a lot of typical armchair debating tactics being used: "Correlation vs. Causation", "Single case observed vs. peer review study", etc. Unfortunately for ALL of us, the answer is still "Yes I have experienced a loss due to violence directly contributed by the use of an illegal drug."

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

And here I want to deny medical assistance to those finding their OD threshold. Wow, talk about miles apart on opinions. At least my way, the average IQ goes up as the users fall off the chart. ;)

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

And what about if they start using it for illegal arms trading? Should that be OK too? I'm not saying drugs are anywhere near as bad but, even if (currently) illegal drugs are made legal, that won't end the use of stuff like Bitcoin for illegal transactions. It's probably better to get a law underway before the "OMG, PIRATES/ANONYMOUS/LIBERALS/CONSERVATIVES/etc" bandwagon catches up to it.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Jibekn]

Those numbers are in line with the amount of people you would expect to lie about the use of drugs

The next 10+ years will give us a real idea, providing nothing bad happens to the people who admitted they used drugs, if admitting it suddenly makes you a target for social workers harassing you to 'get clean' people will just start to lie again and we wont have usable data.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Stoutlimb]

"So we should imprison people for falling victim to basic human flaws?"

Get real. Just about every crime in the book is a variant of some basic human flaw. Greed, anger, jealousy, neglect, and even plain laziness are all outlawed in one form or another. Everything form killing someone in anger, to being too lazy to put on a seat belt, are all outlawed. Those are all social issues too, should we decriminalize them as well?

Look at it a different way. Some drugs are outlawed for very good reason, such as crystal meth. It's a horrible drug that destroys people, and should absolutely be kept out of the hands of anyone naive enough to try it. Meth heads don't just hurt themselves, they generally become a threat to everyone around them as well. Becoming a danger to oneself and others to that degree is already grounds under various mental health acts for incarceration and forced treatment. I think it would be great to forcibly lock up anyone even addicted to crystal meth and not let them out until they are no longer a threat to themselves or others. If the system were to ever be serious about this kind of treatment, we wouldn't need all those prisons and crime would be down as well. It should be illegal to even be a junkie.

This just goes for the hard drugs. Relatively harmless drugs such as marijuana should be legalized and regulated much like alcohol and tobacco are now. Though anyone with serious abuse problems, especially regarding alcohol, should still be tested with the "significant danger to self and others" rule, and possibly forced into rehab. We lock up people with schizophrenia all the time, and nobody thinks it's a bad idea, yet very often much more harmful alcoholics run free and terrorize their families and neighbourhoods. I think as a society we have gone beyond the need to wait for severely messed up people to commit a crime before we can lock them up and treat them for the betterment of everyone involved.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[HungryHobo]

And over 90% of them had ingested bread some time shortly before they committed their crimes.
clearly the bread is to blame.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Msdose]

You're brother in law would still be alive if drugs were legal. And you know it.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[StikyPad]

So is Bitcoin, essentially. I've also never used a credit card, if you want to be pedantic.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[CastrTroy]

Interesting points are here.

Increased uptake of treatment.[19]
Reduction in HIV diagnoses amongst drug users by 71%[20]
Reduction in drug related deaths. [21]

So, while there was more people taking drugs, they were being treated for their problems, and there was a reduction in HIV diagnosis and death. It's ok if people are taking drugs, as long as they are doing so in a controlled fashion. If overall there is less harm, I would have to say that decriminalization was a good thing.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

The only thing I am saying is that evidently I'm not the only person who could answer yes to the grandparent's question of

Have you ever seen a dude high on on some drug fighting?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[j00r0m4nc3r]

Unfortunately your plan requires something called "compassion" which is a strange and scary thing to many people...

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Jibekn]

Depends on your definition of 'Harder drug'

Both are so varied on their forms and delivery methods, that the only way they could be compared is at the 100% purity level, when that happens, they start to look startlingly similar.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

And over 90% of them had ingested bread some time shortly before they committed their crimes. clearly the bread is to blame.

And how exactly does your argument counter my answer to the original question which was:

Have you ever seen a dude high on on some drug fighting?

?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[HungryHobo]

just to add: alcohol comes off as even worse than illegal drugs:

The U.S. Department of Justice Report on Alcohol and Crime found that alcohol abuse was a factor in 40 percent of violent crimes committed in the U.S.
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/costs/a/aa980415.htm

quick question: do your figures actually include legal drugs?
  "under the influence of drugs at time of their offense" could include people who are on legal drugs like proscribed medication when they commit a crime so a schizophrenic who commits a crime after an underdose of his medication would add to those figures.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

the numbers your quoting includes alcohol and prescription drugs, not just illegal drugs.

That may be true, but how does that counter my answer to the original question that was posed by the grandparent ("Have you ever seen a dude high on on some drug fighting?") ?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[HungryHobo]

Since you were replying to the "grandfather smoked 40 a day" post you imply you're trying to show causation.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[petermgreen]

Seems strange to me, do the casinos have a mechanism to stop someone just handing their chips over to another guy and yet no mechanism to ensure that the person who picks up the prize is the same one that placed the bet?!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

The problem with your "Correlation vs. Causation" comment is that it does not apply here. I didn't have to prove that drugs were the cause of the violence. I only had to give examples that applied directly to the grandparent's question:

Have you ever seen a dude high on on some drug fighting?

I only had to provide evidence that I wasn't the single case that could answer the question in the affirmative.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[icebraining]

The number are inflated by the decrease of drug related deaths. The number of new users - especially young people - has dropped.

That same report refers explicitly the success of the new policy.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[j00r0m4nc3r]

It should be illegal to even be a junkie.

Who needs to get real here? What about fat people? People who are addicted to food. Yes, they are slowly killing themselves. Should we incarcerate them until they get reprogrammed to be thin?

I think as a society we have gone beyond the need to wait for severely messed up people to commit a crime before we can lock them up and treat them for the betterment of everyone involved.

Except that we haven't. We don't "treat" drug users, we incarcerate them which is of zero benefit to them or society (maybe even negative benefit). Please don't confuse incarceration with treatment. How does locking up a pothead with murderers help him at all? How does that help his family? You want to lock up people for selling drugs that can be gotten through legal channels, that's one thing. But don't lock up the poor bastards who got themselves addicted. Treat them with medical and social services. You seem to be missing a vital trait called "compassion". Anyone who doesn't live the way you do should get punished and reprogrammed. People get addicted to stuff for all sorts of reasons, but getting to that place in your life is not a crime. It's more like a disease, and can be treated if that person wants. And just like every other disease, if someone doesn't want to be treated they should have the right to not be...

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Omnifarious]

They'll trade the bitcoin for actual currency.

I object to your use of the word 'actual' here. Perhaps you might use 'a more commonly traded' instead. Bitcoin is as 'actual' as any other currency.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

That same comment had "Whilst I have every sympathy with your situation, there are exceptions to every rule and quoting one case as evidence against a general theory serves nobody well.".

I didn't imply causation. You inferred it :P

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[CastrTroy]

Eventually, the bit coins are going to be worth about the same, only slightly more than the lowest possible energy price for producing them. If you could get 2 cents for every 1 cent in electricity, there would be too many people doing this, eventually the currency gets devalued. It will keep on going down until it's only slightly profitable to produce bit coins. And then, you'll only be able to make money if you do it on a large enough scale. Eventually someone is going to put the entire process into specialized hardware, and even the people left using GPUs for generating bitcoins won't make anything.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

That was exactly my point. I've heard for the past 20 years about the tons of dollars found related to illegal drugs. What are they going to do about the dollar then?

I think they need to stop the "point and blame" game and start actually doing real stuff. Latin American countries have been blasted real bad, and it's not going to be until the US gets the production, that they won't let any other country have it. In the mean time, the ones that get the wars and death tolls are not the US Americans, but the rest of the continent because US haven't seen a way to tax that money into their accounts.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Amouth]

as a shown point it doesn't

but if you are using it as a point to argue/discuss with.. you show that 70-75% of violent crimes are done by people not under the influence..

maybe we all just need to get drunk/stoned and the crime rate will drop.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

How would legalizing drugs change the answer to "Have you ever seen a dude high on on some drug fighting?" ?

How does the possibly that some cases included in the study may involve inappropriate use of a legal substance affect the correctness of my answer?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[TheRaven64]

I'm not sure, but I think the casinos prefer the later approach because it means that they get their cut. With roulette, there is a one in 50 chance that the casino wins everything, so on average this means that they take a 2% commission for money laundering. In exchange, they turn a blind eye to it.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[HungryHobo]

no
you quite explicitly imply causation when you come back with the slew of numbers.

However if you really were not implying causation then the bread ingestion is exactly as relevant, almost all murderers eat bread infer what you want about the bread-murder link.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Careful! You may give some conservative blogger evidence that the war on drugs is actually working. You just admitted that the over whelming majority of people who have a tendency to commit crime were not using illegal drugs at the time. Also since the cause for the majority of incarcerations aren't drug related then the war of drugs isn't placing an undue burden on our prison system.

DISCLAIMER: For the humorless - this was a joke. I am not a blogger (well not at this very moment) and the conservatives won't invite me to their social gatherings. Also this was an evil use of logic that should only be done by professional politicians, lobbyists and bloggers. :P

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Sir_Lewk]

Anyone who uses such arguments is already obviously emotionally compromised, and thus unable to reasonably participate in dialogue.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Or I countered that I wasn't the single case.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's classic! Thanks for your stunning insight!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

War on Drugs is a total failure anyway.

The War on Some Drugs is certainly failing to control the drug trade but it is a HUGE win for the government agencies that enforce it.

If you ran a big agency or even a local police department, which would you rather have... More funding and toys... or less?

We're deluding ourselves into thinking that building a police state to live in will make life great.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Amouth]

got to love spin

nice one.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Vegeta99]

I always love these comments:
War on Drugs is a total failure anyway. Anybody who wants drugs can get them. It has done nothing to stop them.

Nicotine and diacetylmorphine (heroin) are both of roughly equal addictive potential. One can get cigarettes in any corner store, they are legal. Heroin? Not so much.

How many people do you know that smoke? How many people do you know that do heroin?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Vegeta99]

Ecstasy is not safe. Please don't put an unapproved synthetic research chemical in the same category as a, well, weed.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[rrossman2]

yes... it happened here the other week (but the victim lived). The guys were high on "bath salts" and 3 of them became super paranoid and stabbed the 4th guy (who's apartment it was) multiple times

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[rrossman2]

I don't. Just look at Alcohol (which is a drug don't forget). Leads to violence, money issues, domestic disputes, etc.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[westlake]

But are there more messed up families due to drugs than there are due to drug prohibition? I doubt it.

But why do you doubt it?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[hedwards]

Sigh, you do realize that the war on drugs has nothing to do with money laundering and various other shady services, right? At best that would eliminate the portion that goes to pay for drugs, and even that's questionable as it would still be regarded as immoral by a large portion of the populace.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[HungryHobo]

fair enough, there's an absurd post right at the bottom of this pile nobody can see any more due to downmods.

So just to be clear you don't claim that drugs make people violent?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Is "emotionally compromised" a derogatory term for having a life experience that makes it harder for you to convince me to agree with you?

Other than my post what evidence do you have to back up your claim?

Let's assume you supported the legalization of all drugs. Did I mention a position for or against the legalization of drugs? No.

I think it's ridiculous that people are quick to condemn me for answering the grandparent's question, yet take the premise that the use of drugs would miraculously keep people from committing violence. A fact that anybody who has been around drugs would find very hard to believe.

Now if we talked about legalizing drugs, what would you expect my opinion to be?

Do I think legalizing all drugs is a good idea? No. I think some drugs are more dangerous than others.

Do I think marijuana should be legalized? Yes but only if it was legal for someone to grow their own. Why? Because in my opinion legalizing marijuana without legalizing home growing can make matters worse. We would reward the drug lords by increasing their available market and we artificially make the weed scarce by allowing only licensed growers. There is a chance that we would spend as much money regulating the new market than we spent preventing it, since I don't expect the current drug lords to willingly give up their market share. Not to mention that the only way we can truly argue that legalizing marijuana would lower drug related crime is to devalue the commodity by making it readily available to those who want it. Also if California is any indication, regulations on marijuana use would be easily circumvented anyway. Is it possible to not get a prescription for marijuana?

So now that I veered completely off the original topic, does my life experience match your expectations of my position on drug legalization? Have I not demonstrated the ability to have a reasoned discussion about the topic at hand?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

You are really referencing the times of alcohol prohibition to support prohibition being less harmful? Really? This has been tried many times, throughout history, in different parts of the world. Bad idea.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[gad_zuki!]

Depends on your definition of safety. Right now I can go and buy as much socially acceptable poison as I like (alcohol). If we use alcohol as a metric than ecstasy should far into the same category.

Also weed isn't safe either if we're going to be overly critical. Some people get panic attacks or paranoia and inhaling smoke cant be good for you in the long run.

Of course, compared to cigarettes they both are incredibly healthy.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[EllisDees]

>Assuming your statement is valid you still have not have addressed the addicts doing whatever they can to obtain the substance in question

Alcohol is both highly intoxicating and addictive. How often do you hear about drunks robbing the 7-11 for their cheap wine?

>It is the addiction that removes freedom.

And the vast majority of people who try any given drug never become addicted. Even heroin has a 5% addiction rate, with most users trying it a few times or only occasionally. If someone is addicted to a drug, treat them for it. If they aren't, leave them alone.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[EllisDees]

>Neither of which are nearly as addictive as opiates

You are completely incorrect. Alcohol withdrawal can kill you, while opiate withdrawal only makes you feel like death.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Hatta]

Because most of the negative effects of drugs are directly caused by prohibition. It's entirely possible for an opiate addict to hold down a job and raise a family. This is a proven result from heroin maintenance programs. The problem comes when addicts are stigmatized, and prices are artificially inflated. Then they can't get a job, and can't afford their fix, so they turn to petty crime. Entirely due to prohibition.

Similarly, it's easy to smoke a lot of pot in college and still do well. Happens all the time. But if you get caught smoking pot in college, prepare to lose your financial aid. This is clearly worse than anything pot will do to you.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on what you call "safe".

http://thedea.org/statistics.html

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Please don't compare street quality 'ecstacy' to decent-lab-quality MDMA :)

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

So just to be clear you don't claim that drugs make people violent?

It would be more accurate to say that I don't believe that drugs would make people LESS violent.

I think the topic of violence being caused by the drug itself is complex and hard to justify by statistics alone. If a person has a potential for violence then the drug may be the enabler for him to commit violence. The drug may not be the root cause of the violence but it can be the trigger.

Let me try to illustrate my view. For example, an alcoholic doesn't beat his wife because beer made him evil. He always had the potential to beat his wife, but under the influence of alcohol he lacked the better judgement to not hit his wife. It is also a fact that not all beer drinkers beat their wife.

Violence could result from an adverse reaction to a drug. The person may become delusional and lash out in fear. In documented cases of some prescription drugs adverse reactions include thoughts of suicide or severe changes in mood (we are talking about brain chemistry here). To add to the complexity, the chances for these adverse reactions are present in only certain types of drugs while others the risk may be much lower or practically nil.

I don't think the potential of drugs causing violence is zero. Suffice it to say, I feel more confident in saying that I do not believe drugs would make people less violent.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[shutdown -p now]

As with any other fiat currency (yes, US dollar as well), the reason why you should be willing to trade goods for bitcoins is because others are also willing to do so. Bitcoins themselves are useless, but accepting them for your services lets you obtain services from others.

The difference between bitcoin and USD is that the latter is legal tender in US. However, it's not as big a distinction as one would think, since dollar happily trades elsewhere in the word, where it is not legal tender, and where there's no practical way of actually redeeming it on US territory. Then there are many other cases where currency systems have arisen without any government or other formal backing, and thus no guarantees whatsoever. In the end, money always appears in a market economy; and, on the other hand, anything that has no inherent utility value but can be traded for other things is money.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Lennie]

You've never been to the Netherlands have you ? You can get drugs here, it is legal. Only 'soft-drugs' though, like joints for personal use (so small quantities).

And you know what ? We don't have a problem. The biggests problems that are caused are by foreigners coming in and causing problems trying to get large quantities.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Vegeta99]

The AC nailed it on the head. Both marijuana and ecstasy right now come from some moron who couldn't hack it legally farming or working as a chemist.

I wouldn't use alcohol for comparison because I agree with you in regards to its danger. I would tobacco because research has shown that many health professionals put heroin and tobacco relatively close to one another, when plotted on a graph with one axes being health danger, the other being addiction potential. Not exactly equivalent, but close

Both are incredibly less health-endangering than tobacco. However, it is very difficult to overdose on marijuana. MDMA, not so much. One is also more likely to identify counterfeit or adulterated marijuana than they are a purported E pill.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Nihn]

you USED your brother in laws death to further boost your ego, just so you can "prove" someone else is wrong. If it's YOUR business why did you post it in a PUBLIC FORUM? You didn't give a specific answer you used someones misfortune to further back your own ideals. I can judge you all I want, this is a free country after all, and your ignorant reply does not entitle you to any form of protection from ridicule. Complain all you want, still doesn't change the fact your little story is only 1 example of an event that happens every 30 seconds on this planet. People die, drugs or not, the previous person may be wrong in his statement, but you are equally wrong for your implication that drugs are the only reason people attack one another.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Hatta]

MDMA is safer than most forms of entertainment. You are much more likely to die in the car on the way to a rave than dying from MDMA at the rave.

Also, "weeds" aren't necessarily safer than "research chemicals". Jimson weed, for instance is far more dangerous than that unapproved synthetic (but totally non-toxic) research chemical LSD.

I don't usually complain about moderation, but the above post needs to be modded down.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[sdguero]

Take care to spread blame to progressives and conservatives for the war on drugs. Both sides have played their part.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thwarting the evil war on drugs sounds like a great way to use Bitcoin. I don't know how useful bitcoin is for money laundering directly but it is also a great way to operate an offshore company that does business entirely online or offshore. There is only one nation I know of that actually thinks it is entitled to taxes on income earned outside its borders and bitcoin seems like a legitimate way to avoid that.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

No ecstasy isn't perfectly safe. It's about as dangerous as horse riding though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7876425.stm

One is encouraged, celebrated even, the other can land you with jail time. Doesn't seem right to me.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[g253]

How many people do you know that smoke? How many people do you know that do heroin?

That's not the point. You're comparing apples and oranges here. The point is that the "war on drugs" has cost a lot to society while failing to decrease (for example) heroin usage. Attempts at banning alcohol are usually unsuccessful and short-lived too. Banning cigarettes is probably impossible - that's because, to go back to your flawed comparison, nicotine is massively harmless compared to heroin, and people know that so most don't do heroin.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[frig.neutron]

yeah, but then it's just a matter of time until someone cracks the currency and learns to activate the evil bit.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[HungryHobo]

Fair enough.
That seems well reasoned and well written.
I apologise for my earlier flippant responses.

The only objection might be that some illegal drugs can have a sedative or calming effect much like some legal drugs can make people more unstable,jumpy or more prone to acting on impulse.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[somersault]

I rate joints below cigarettes and alcohol on the health damage scale - I was thinking more of stuff like heroine, cocaine, etc.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[elsurexiste]

Being pro-war on drugs is to be pro slavery, sex trade, murder, empowerment of the biggest pieces of shit the world can create...

Whoa! I agree that the war on drugs have to change, but I recognize a non-sequitur when I see it. ;)

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

People die, drugs or not, the previous person may be wrong in his statement, but you are equally wrong for your implication that drugs are the only reason people attack one another.

Where did I say that drugs are the only reason people attack one another? Oh I didn't.

The original premise was "Have you ever seen a dude high on on some drug fighting? NO! they're all like peace bro!". My complete answer that negates the grandparent's post that drugs would prevent violence was "My brother-in-law was 16 when he was murdered by an acquaintance who was high on drugs at the time." That's it. Nothing more was said. No "drugs is the cause of all deaths" or any other delusional thing you can come up with.

I don't go around looking for an excuse to mention my brother-in-law. In fact whenever I think of him, I feel pretty melancholy. Also when someone states a ludicrous hypothesis that runs counter to my personal experience, I feel no remorse on not only disagreeing with him but bringing up the exact reason why. It's not an attempt to "one up" anybody, it just a fact. I kept it short and to the point.

It's not my alleged faux pas of bringing up my brother-in-law that has you upset. You're angry because I made you uncomfortable. How dare I make you feel guilty for your views on drugs. You don't want anyone to humanize the topic. You want to keep it antiseptic, clinical, or just plain hypothetical. That way you can have your vice and tell yourself that there isn't really any consequences to your beliefs. No need to get your hands dirty.

You've twice created a new topic to base your argument on. First you attacked my feelings toward my brother-in-law, and now you fabricated a premise that I don't even have. Is that how you make yourself feel better? Who is the one with the ego?

I have to admit that I originally was a little angry at you. I interpreted your comment as a personal attack. Now I just feel sorry for you. Grasping at straws just prove me wrong. Poor Nihn. He's obviously passionate and is desperate to win this argument.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[somersault]

I didn't say they shouldn't be allowed it, I just said I'd hate to see it :p I see enough stoner zombies walking around as it is.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Vegeta99]

You have mistakenly called a strength in my argument a flaw.

If you want to compare the two on a biochemical level, heroin is massively safer than nicotine. In Real Life(TM), however, nicotine is generally delivered by burning plant matter, and is quite legal for the majority of users. Because it is legal, yet highly physiologically addictive, many users know of the grave dangers of consuming the drug, but will continue to use it. Many examples exist of users with emphysema continuing to use their drug. On the other hand, heroin could be delivered safely. Indeed, many opiods that are much stronger than heroin are prescribed on a regular basis. For example, methylfentanyl. However, it is illegal. Thus, many sources come from, well, terrorists cooking it in a used oil drum. That, combined with the fact that it is, like nicotine, highly physiologically addictive, makes for just the same deadly combination that nicotine in a cigarette makes.

If I could go to the store and buy myself a tasty bottle of heroin, I would have the assurance that the FDA had regulations that controlled its manufacture, and that all I would be getting in that pill was some heroin and pill filler. It would be safer than nicotine, and probably alcohol. It's prescribed in the UK, as an opiod painkiller, it's rather safe. The point? While I do disagree with the horror that the War on Drugs has caused American society, many drugs that are illegal for recreational use simply cannot be legalized because the social problems they would create compared to the two we have to deal with now would be enormous.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[elsurexiste]

Heh, here says that 33% of car accidents involved an alcoholic person.

Not sure what you're saying here - looks to me like the majority of people said they weren't on [alcohol].

The logical conclusion to this data is that not being on [alcohol] should be outlawed, no?

Sorry, couldn't resist. XD

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[somersault]

Where the hell did you get that idea? The main drug I had in mind at that point was heroine.I don't have an extensive knowledge of drugs, but I'd rate pot around the same as alcohol, ie I wouldn't mind using it occasionally, if I wouldn't get fired for it when I get my random drug tests.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

The value of US currency abroad comes from the fact that it's legal tender in the USA.

Every stable currency has got, at the end of the chain, someone who wants it for reasons other than, "Because other people will take it as money." It has always been that way, it will always be that way. If there is no such end-of-chain person, then there's no reason for there to be any stability to the value: a dip is likely to to lead to a collapse.

For most modern fiat currencies, there are three reasons:
1) the money is created by borrowing, and therefore a debt is created when the money is created, and that debt must be satisfied with that specific currency to avoid bad consequences (particularly, the loss of collateral),
2) some government requires that it be accepted to satisfy any debt, and
3) some government requires fees, fines, taxes, and court-ordered compensation to be paid in it.

Lots of productive, wealthy Americans have to get their hands on those US dollars, whether other people want them or not, or suffer all sorts of bad consequences. If for some reason it became clear that every dollar would disappear in one year, people would STILL need to pay their debts, unhappy as the bank might be to get their dollars instead of getting to seize their collateral, so despite nobody wanting to get stuck with these hot-potato dollars, they would still be valued.

For past commodity currencies, it was usually that the traded material was useful, decorative, or both.

Without this kind of bedrock value, the best there can be is a temporary bubble. These things happen all the time, since there are plenty of suckers.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to back that up:

People who openly say that the War on Drugs is a failure and will never ever work:

- Global Commission on Drug Policy,
- Kofi Annan,
- Ernesto Zedillo (former Mexican president),
- Fernando Henrique Cardoso (former Brasilian president),
- Cesar Gaviria (former Colombian president),
- Paul Volcker (former boss of the Federal Reserve),
- George Papandreou (current Greek prime minister),
- Sir Richard Branson,
- Javier Solana (former "foreign minister"-equivalent of the EU),
- George Schultz (US foreign minister),
- Carlos Fuentes and Mario Vargas Llosa (latin-American authors).

If you believe in authority, here's some: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13624303
And the report: http://www.globalcommissionondrugs.org/Report

(Sorry, I just can't log in from here.)

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[somersault]

I wouldn't call any British city on a weekend night "civilization".

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[somersault]

I was thinking that as I wrote my post, but then I thought I should keep my post in check. It's flamebait enough as it is :p

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Vegeta99]

I'll concede that Jimson Weed is indeed more toxic than LSD. I actually couldn't think of any synthetic psychoactive safer than LSD.

I do, however, call into doubt that going to a rave and taking Ecstasy is any safer than driving the car there. While your reply said MDMA, and my post DID talk about the fact it's a research chemical, my post said Ecstasy. It is likely very rare that when a raver chooses to use Ecstasy, they understand how to ascertain its purity or dosage, or how to properly counteract its pyretic effects. I think that the drive on the way to the rave, so long as *ahem* consumption did not begin until the parking lot, would be safer.

Marijuana, on the other hand, has been shown to make you a safer driver than a drunk. Or a sober person, for that matter.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[somersault]

It's not a religious belief, just my personal opinion and experience. I don't think it should be illegal to put anything in your body, but I do think people who do so in an uncontrolled fashion are stupid. I'd actually put sugar as higher up on the undesirable scale. Obese people really disgust me, even more than smokers..

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Oligonicella]

Really? Exactly who backs it up? As in, for real exactly, not some 'cloud' construct.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to back that up:

People who openly say that the War on Drugs is a failure and will never ever work:

- Global Commission on Drug Policy,
- Kofi Annan,
- Ernesto Zedillo (former Mexican president),
- Fernando Henrique Cardoso (former Brasilian president),
- Cesar Gaviria (former Colombian president),
- Paul Volcker (former boss of the Federal Reserve),
- George Papandreou (current Greek prime minister),
- Sir Richard Branson,
- Javier Solana (former "foreign minister"-equivalent of the EU),
- George Schultz (US foreign minister),
- Carlos Fuentes and Mario Vargas Llosa (latin-American authors).

If you believe in authority, here's some: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13624303
And the report: http://www.globalcommissionondrugs.org/Report

(Sorry, I just can't log in from here.)

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Omnifarious]

What does 'back it up' even mean? What 'backs up' the dollar?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

The AC nailed it on the head. Both marijuana and ecstasy right now come from some moron who couldn't hack it legally farming or working as a chemist.

That's a little harsh dude...

There are still some people out there that CHOOSE to step
out of the corrupt corporate world and assume a simpler
life to help others. Not the E, but growers for medicinal
suppliers of marijuana.

I quit my corporate job to become broke as hell, virtually
ascetic so I could realize my lifelong dream of creating a
non-profit to help disadvantaged individuals.

You DO realize there are still people out there that DO
care about others... right?

Not everyone is a lazy good for nothing hippie just cause
you are a stuck up asshole prick.

-@|

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[AlienIntelligence]

Bitcoin itself is rather shady in nature. Essentially it is an obfuscated pyramid/ponzi scheme (here are some tokens in a database: they are redeemable for nothing

CITATION PLEASE?

Should we give you a few minutes to look up what a ponzi scheme is?

-AI

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[g253]

I think as a society we have gone beyond the need to wait for severely messed up people to commit a crime before we can lock them up

And I dearly hope we as a society don't forget how important that is yet again.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[elsurexiste]

I agree with you, but...

It always has been and still is easier for young people to get illegal drugs than legal ones.

How the hell were you moderated "Insightful" after this sentence? I'm 100 meters away to buy alcohol or cigarettes.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[AlienIntelligence]

Really? Exactly who backs it up? As in, for real exactly, not some 'cloud' construct.

Really? Who the fuck backs up your american greenback?

Jesus christ people have their heads firmly up their
ass nowadays.

Do you even know what fiat currency is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

Do you realize "backing" is not the same as accepting?

http://kwaves.com/fiat.htm

The very first paragraph describes BitCoin,
ie, it is JUST like those worthless pieces
of paper that (some of you) have in your
wallets.

THIS, is REAL money... in it's time:
http://www.fastcoin.com/images/1922-Gold-Certificate-Gold-Coin-Note-xf-31606.jpg
and this
http://www.antiquebanknotes.com/Images/Gold_Certificates/1905_20.00_Technicolor_Gold_Certificate.jpg
and this
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/1DollarSilverCertificate.jpg

But sure as hell, not THIS
http://www.millionface.com/l/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/currency_notes/Banjamin_Franklin_on_dollar_100_note.jpg

-AI

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[stonewallred]

And your point is?

How many of them were committing crimes to buy illegal drugs?

If they could have done like the local winos do, and panhandled for an hour to get their fix, they might not have been engaging in those crimes.

That is the cost of the WoD.

Which has spent at least a trillion US dollars, raped our Constitution in the US, and the end result?

Legalization would make it harder for underaged kids to get it, cut off funding to the criminals and raise money via "sin" taxes.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

By "actual", I think the GP means "backed by a commodity or a government". Since Bitcoin is neither, it is not something I would consider an "actual" currency, as opposed to the US Dollar which is backed by the full faith and credit of the US Government.

dom

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

Are you under 21 and in the U.S.? Most high school campuses here have a nice, round selection of illegal drugs, but rarely any alcoholic beverages.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

A Ponzi scheme is an investment opportunity where the history of pay-outs which supposedly demonstrates its viability actually all comes from investment funds.

The various features of Bitcoin do obfuscate the fact that this is what's happening when somebody buys bitcoins and later resells them at a higher price: because of pyramid-like expansion of the investor base, new investors are injecting funds faster than old investors are extracting them. What happens in the end is that you run out of suckers, and everybody who put money in is left with no way to get anything out again.

The nice way to say this is that it's a speculative bubble, as if it just happened on its own, but that ignores the role of the mastermind who set up and promoted the system hoping for this outcome. It's conceivable that he confused himself into thinking he was doing something honestly productive, but I very much doubt it.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[AlienIntelligence]

and there's a finite quantity to mine, most of which is already in the hands of BC's founders. Why exactly is this a good thing? Count me out.

And I suppose you know where the vast majority
of issued US currency is oh wise one?

And whereas... bitcoin has set a LIMIT on the
amount of currency they will produce... our
lovely country... has NOT.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43233866

So... shun one fiat currency in favor of another,
good game plan.

Honestly we need to start passing out forceps
so the americans drinking the kool aid can at
least have a cranialectomy so their straws don't
have to be so long.

-AI

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[AlienIntelligence]

Then there is monopoly money, bitcoins, etc. If some people collect most monopoly money and start a big campaign to give them value, it does not make them comparable to the aforementioned forms of currency.

BitCoin is no more monopoly money than that
multicolored shit they give out at the banks.

-AI

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Zagnar]

I will have to agree to this, though, the pills that kids pick up at raves aren't always MDMA. I would assume that most stories of overdoses come from ecstasy heavily laced with stimulants. If MDMA were legalized, it would be quite a bit easier to get something safe.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[infodragon]

Pffttt... 5%

Over 4x that rate.

http://www.recoverycorps.org/addiction/opiates/heroin/

Yea I may seem a little disrespectful. I've seen so much drug abuse, how it grips a person and destroys families. I've seen MANY lives destroyed by one person, and I'm not just referring to one case. You can believe your 5% and justify all you want. You can put your fingers in your ears and hum away. Deny all you want but facts are facts. If you like I'll perform the "THUNK FACTOR" for you but I'm afraid that may be enabling. Take 30 seconds on google for heroin addiction and THUNK yourself.

A very small portion of the population creates an undue burden on the vast majority of the population due to a substance. Society is there for the benefit of the many so apply the 80/20 rule. Remove the 20% of the most harmful substances and realize 80% of the benefit. Leave the other 80% of harmful substances be and then put the rest of the money towards development. By any unbiased study narcotics easily belong to that 80% and as you so succinctly put it so does alcohol but we're past that, prohibition, and the irresponsible behavior of it kills more people than most want to admit.

I don't even know why I try...

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[shutdown -p now]

Every stable currency has got, at the end of the chain, someone who wants it for reasons other than, "Because other people will take it as money." It has always been that way, it will always be that way. If there is no such end-of-chain person, then there's no reason for there to be any stability to the value: a dip is likely to to lead to a collapse.

"Stability" is relative, and there are many national currencies in the world that are less stable than bitcoin. It's not like "someone at the end of the chain" can always guarantee stability. And, of course, there can always be a collapse in such a scheme as well, once the end of the chain suddenly decides to not honor obligations, or if they start emitting money in extent of their ability to honor such. We've seen plenty of hyperinflated national currencies in the last 100 years.

And sure, stable currency is better than unstable one, but many people in the world did and do live exchanging their labor for unstable currencies, and using them to purchase goods.

For past commodity currencies, it was usually that the traded material was useful, decorative, or both. Without this kind of bedrock value, the best there can be is a temporary bubble.

Neither gold nor silver not other commodity currencies derive most of their market value from usefulness of the underlying material. Most of that price comes solely out of market's perception of gold etc as valuable, not because of actual use. In that sense, gold may be the biggest and longest-running bubble in the history of mankind - but for as long as it works, so what?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Nihn]

"Where did I say that drugs are the only reason people attack one another? Oh I didn't." You did, just because your brother in law died from a drug related murder you are implying that ALL people on drugs attack people, you don't have to say it directly. "I don't go around looking for an excuse to mention my brother-in-law." So WHY did you bring it up? Because you are looking for sympathy to your point of view. "That way you can have your vice and tell yourself that there isn't really any consequences to your beliefs. No need to get your hands dirty. " Just like you are doing now. Your vice is believing your always right. And that whole "Now I just feel sorry for you. Grasping at straws just prove me wrong." is just pathetic. No one has taken any time to defend you in this, you are alone in your ignorance. The other person made a completely fictional based comment but you, you had to drag someone who has nothing to do with Bitcoins into an argument over drugs. I kinda feel bad for your brother in law..at least he doesn't have to listen to your lame shit....

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[neonsignal]

What 'backs up' the dollar?

Apparently your government does. How much debt are they in again?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

So you think to compare the "addictiveness potential" of tobacco and heroin and therefore declare them to be similar drugs? What a stupid and nonsensical claim.

Have you ever known anyone who's had a heroin addiction? Obviously not, or you wouldn't be posting such ill-informed fuckshyte.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Fox News.... It is the 'The' that make them similar. Like the 'Al' make Al Jazeera and Al Quaeda similar in OP's mind.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[GooberToo]

Whoa! I agree that the war on drugs have to change, but I recognize a non-sequitur when I see it. ;)

And I recognize someone who is smugly sniping while trying to hide they know absolutely nothing of the topic at hand. Hardly surprising given this is /.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Bratmon]

Like gold, it's backed up the idea that "there will be no more than X amount." I actually trust this more than the conventional "governments saying 'Please'" system we have now.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[AlienIntelligence]

A Ponzi scheme is an investment opportunity where the history of pay-outs which supposedly demonstrates its viability actually all comes from investment funds.

Yeah... did you listen to your definition?

a) not an investment opportunity any more than "buying" euros at the bank and then selling them when the dollar slumps.

b) there are no pay-outs because (see a) it's not an investment opportunity.

c) it's viability is that it's another fiat currency, it is not based on 'investment funds' (see a).

The fact that (a) exists, means it's not a ponzi scheme.

I will allow bubble... which can exist for any named commodity.
But that exists for any 'unbacked' currency as well. For example, the
American Dollar.

-AI

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Alimony Pakhdan]

You should seriously consider a career as a professional comedian. Either that or politics.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[cheeks5965]

While your reply said MDMA... my post said Ecstasy.

hair, consider yourself split!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[cheeks5965]

What 'backs up' the dollar?

The good faith and credit of the United States. Scoff if you must, because we're no longer on the gold standard! And China owns the treasury bills! Arrgh! Insert other hyperbolic claim!

truth is there's not a single soul backing up bitcoin. I would sooner use Lindens.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[cheeks5965]

You can make money bitcoin mining, as long as you have the hardware already (paying off your hardware costs seems unlikely).

so that's a no, then. or perhaps you can hack into PSN and harness the power of all ps3s worldwide to crunch coin for you! #winning!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Capsaicin]

It's going to be that way until we finally repeal the idiotic War on Drugs

If you were a betting man, which would you think has better odds: a repeal of the WarOnDrugs(tm); or legislation regulating or banning alternative currencies?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Mr. Slippery]

While I do disagree with the horror that the War on Drugs has caused American society, many drugs that are illegal for recreational use simply cannot be legalized because the social problems they would create compared to the two we have to deal with now would be enormous.

What "social problems"? Every point you've mentioned is an argument for ending Prohibition. Yes, when we end Prohibition, heroin might well be safer than nicotine or hard liquor. This is a good thing.

Do you somehow think that everyone is going to become a junkie? No. Are you going to start shooting heroin into your eyeballs when it's legal? (If that is that case, then I'm sorry; but your personal weaknesses do not justify the use of force against others.)

Post-Prohibition, opium smoking or other milder opiates will be far more popular, and their popularity will to some extent displace the use of alcohol. Social problems associated with drug abuse will greatly decrease when people can inexpensively get clean drugs. And when their addictions are no longer criminalized, people who do have problems will be more willing to get help.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a religious belief, just my personal opinion and experience. I don't think it should be illegal to put anything in your body, but I do think people who do so in an uncontrolled fashion are stupid. I'd actually put sugar as higher up on the undesirable scale. Obese people really disgust me, even more than smokers..

Just admit that your personal opinions are not a sound basis for public policy. ESPECIALLY when we've already tried that particular public policy since the late 1930s and its failures are already painfully obvious. Just admit that objective fact IS a sound basis for public policy.

Every time the issue is studied scientifically the recommendation is always the same: stop treating it as a crime, start treating it as a medical and social issue. That's if your goal is fewer users, less overall suffering, more freedoms, and more financial prosperity.

Of course if your goal is to increase police power, to increasingly militarize the police, to collect campaign contributions from the private prison system, etc., then by all means stay the course.

I'm sorry because it is not really my intent to insult you, but you're going to think it is: only a moron could look at the facts of the matter and still think the War on Drugs is a good idea. "Moron" doesn't mean you're stupid, necessarily. "Moron" could mean you're a very bright person with the unfortunate defect of only seeing what you want to see. More like tunnel-vision, if you will. Problem with that is, 2+2 equals 4 even if you really wanted to see a "5".

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Omnifarious]

What, exactly, do they back it up with? Is there something the government promises you that you can exchange for USD, aside from keeping them from putting you in prison for not paying taxes?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[RoFLKOPTr]

bank having to fill out FBI forms.

[citation needed]

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Omnifarious]

I scoff because none of the things you've mentioned are a material object of any use to me whatsoever. Even the gold standard. I have no use for gold. I can't eat it. I don't make anything where gold is a particularly useful component.

And Lindens, what backs them up? Is there a promise that you can exchange them for some quantity of USD? I suppose there's a promise to provide you with the use of a certain amount of virtual land or something for Lindens. That is, at least something, but it seems like a pretty poor and thin promise, and even less useful to me than gold would be.

No, the thing that 'backs up' just about any currency is who's willing to accept it in trade for stuff. That's it. The real value of dollars is the totality of the US economy. The value of Lindens are all the marvelous artists, designers and coders who are willing to trade their lindens for stuff.

And bitcoins, by that measure, are not such a great currency right now, I'll admit. But they have the potential to be a pretty nifty currency. And you can currently exchange them for illegal drugs, alpaca socks, work by various professionals (including me) and a few other interesting things. And I think the number of things you will be able to exchange them for will go up over time.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[WorBlux]

And asking people to accept them is worse than forcing people to accept them as governments do with their currencies how?

And the computer resources are not wasted, they are used to check and verify transactions, incentivized with a small chance of discovering new coins. The transaction are far less costly/profitable for the processor than say a credit card transaction that want's to skim 3-5% of every transaction (Before they start charging interest on any balances). Now that's shady

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[lpq]

Um....ok, so it someone gets paid in bitcoins -- can someone explain how one uses that money to buy something on amazon, or food down at the grocery store?

It's a form of currency but you can't change it into 'legal tender'....so how does it go from being a currency good only for 'illegal things', vs. being something one can use to pay rent, buy a car...etc...?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[White Flame]

I couldn't, because there's a one bit cent tariff for all transactions.

Who receives that tariff?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a well known fact that most dollar bills of higher denominations, e.g. $100, contain traces of cocaine.... so there.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[somersault]

When did I say that public policy should be set on my personal opinions? As I've stated elsewhere, it is my own personal opinion that people should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, but I don't like having to see the results. If legalising all drugs will cut down the problems I see already whenever I walk through certain areas of my city, then I'm all for it.

I also think people who can't even be responsible with their own bodies shouldn't be allowed to have kids. If they smoke, heavily overeat, are an alcoholic or otherwise addicted to any substance, they shouldn't be allowed children until they can show that they can provide a safe environment to raise a kid.

I don't think you're trying to insult me, I just think you're not very good at understanding words like "hate" are obviously personal feelings.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Horseshit. Bitcoin MUST be used electronically, as in monitored by the NSA the FBI, Carnivore etc etc. . Paper money can be used offline and no record is made of the transaction. Actually Bitcoin and suchlike facilitate a greater degree of surveillance by the government than does paper money.

Rest assured that online "darknets" that think they're not being monitored are jammed to bursting with DEA agents and whatnot patiently collecting evidence and learning how the criminal element operates. Please. Do all your illegal transactions online. Make it easier for law enforcement to nail you. Saves taxpayers money not having to pay for the maintenance on all those vinyl-upholstered Crown Vics.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[darkpixel2k]

My brother-in-law was 16 when he was murdered by an acquaintance who was high on drugs at the time.

It's a shame no one was exercising their constitutional right to carry a firearm.

I don't care if people use drugs, but I damn well better be able to carry a firearm to shoot them if they try to get into my house or harm my family. Problem solved.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one prefer evil corporations sending lawyers to sue you to death over evil drug lords sending thugs to break your legs.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[EllisDees]

>Yea I may seem a little disrespectful. I've seen so much drug abuse, how it grips a person and destroys families.

If you're working with hardcore alcoholics, I'm sure it's easy to see all alcohol use as horrible even though the vast majority of people can have a glass of wine with dinner and never have any problem. The situation is exactly the same with other drugs. The undue burden on society is caused by their illegality, not the drugs themselves. If a heroin/meth/cocaine addict could get their fix as easily and cheaply as the wino can, what's the problem?

>Remove the 20% of the most harmful substances and realize 80% of the benefit.

Except that that's completely impossible in anything like a free society. People want to alter their consciousness, and as long as they aren't actually harming anyone else, it's none of your business at all and a giant waste of resources to even try. Give treatment to the people who need it, and leave everyone else alone.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Phoghat]

War on Drugs is a total failure anyway. Anybody who wants drugs can get them. It has done nothing to stop them.

The war has been lost for a long time, but because of the Puritanical outlook of the USA, they won't concede it was a failure. How can the US lose a war? The temperament of the population won't allow it.

I think SOME progress is being made with states like CA and OR allowing the legal sale of pot, but we have such a long way to go.

Meanwhile, In NY City, go to any park by a university campus and if you have the money, they have the stuff, any stuff.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[EllisDees]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Secrecy_Act

Google time, 4 seconds.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[infodragon]

More of a USA perspective here...

Freedom is more of a responsibility than a right. There is a reason the order is "Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness." Liberty cannot infringe on life. Pursuit of happiness cannot infringe on Liberty.

>Except that that's completely impossible in anything like a free society.

No society is completely free. Every society has to determine what is best for the many. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." The constitution embodies this while trying to provide for the maximum individual freedom. If such individuals wish to harm many more than themselves by indirectly supporting an economy based around addictive substances can...

1. elect officials who will change the law, which the constitution provides.
2. leave the country and become a citizen of one that more adequately represents their views.

> People want to alter their consciousness, and as long as they aren't actually harming anyone else, it's none of your business at all and a giant waste of resources to even try.

Your altered consciousness posses an *EXTREME* higher risk to society than almost anything else I can think of. Doesn't mean that any one in particular will realize that risk but a significant portion of this high risk population will. Again your pursuit of happiness will infringe on my Life. Again maybe not you but somebody will! This mentality can be taken to the extreme which is why I'm in favor of the 80/20 rule.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Lennie]

Maybe I should add as it might not have been obvious from what I mentioned before:
It seems atleast to me because I live here, that having legal access to joints and alcohol and other soft-drugs have the effect of less hard-drug use.

It's legal, it easy to get, it isn't expensive. It is of good quality. There are inspections by the ministry (which prevents deaths from bad drugs) and people pay sales tax.

You need to get a license to open a shop, so the goverment can decide where they want these shops to exist.

And their isn't even all that much money spend on law enforcement.

So to me this seems to be the way to go about it.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Thing 1]

Your link ends in .php. InfoDragon warned us about this drug.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Thing 1]

I love old people. I'm fast becoming one. :)

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[elsurexiste]

Oh, dear. Naturally, drugs are easier to hide than alcohol, so it seems reasonable.

Wikipedia tells me the age of majority in the US is 18, yet they won't let you buy alcohol until 21? My mind hurts. :/

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

It is still much easier to get illegal drugs off-campus than legal drugs. Illegal drugs are everywhere. Legal drugs are at the store, where they card you.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[EllisDees]

>The constitution embodies this while trying to provide for the maximum individual freedom.If such individuals wish to harm many more than themselves by indirectly supporting an economy based around addictive substances can...

Now I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but just in case you're just deluded, yes, the constitution had it right. It doesn't give the federal government any power at all to regulate drug use. It took a constitutional amendment for them to be able to restrict alcohol. The same should be required for other drugs. Besides, you missed my point. Even the most restrictive societies on the planet still cannot stop drug use. You cannot take the real steps that would be required to stop any significant use of drugs without turning the country into a police state. Even then, it wouldn't stop completely.

>Your altered consciousness posses an *EXTREME* higher risk to society than almost anything else I can think of.

No, it doesn't. My altered consciousness doesn't pose any risk to society whatsoever. This has been proved through 20 years of altering it in various ways without causing any trouble for anyone. Your 80/20 rule is crap, since most of those 20 would cause problems with or without substances. Give them treatment, or put them in jail if they continue to cause problems and you'd solve almost all of the problems you imagine are caused by drugs. Incarcerating anyone for the simple act of using drugs is asinine.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[monkyyy]

1)problem with authority meets 2)get-rich-quick gullibility, 3) geeky techno-enthusiasm.

woot 2 out of 3 what i win?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[infodragon]

THANK YOU! You have proven to me you are self centered and cannot view anything outside your own world. Your selective quote only reinforces that!

Please reference the entire quote so you get a bit of the context...

>Your altered consciousness posses an *EXTREME* higher risk to society than almost anything else I can think of. Doesn't mean that any one in particular will realize that risk but a significant portion of this high risk population will.

Where do you get that I was accusing you? Again I quote to emphasize "Doesn't mean that any one in particular will realize that risk but a significant portion of this high risk population will." You may be able to deal with the altered consciousness but many cannot. How many die per year because of alcohol related traffic incidents? Lets take a walk down Detroit and pull the dead bodies out of the gutter. How many are filled with narcotics? How many were killed by somebody altered by narcotics?

Oh, nice use of Troll to character assassinate... Shall we throw in Nazi?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[realnowhereman]

You can exchange bitcoins for legal tender at any one of the exchanges.

You can use bitcoins to buy amazon products (there is a bitcoin trader who will make the order for you).

The grocery thing is not common yet, but there are food stores for bitcoin and one of the most famous early transactions in Bitcoin was someone bought a pizza for 10,000 BTC. If the pizza guy kept those coins, he would now be worth $300,000.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[DriedClexler]

Ouch! Someone just got TOLD!

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[lpq]

'anyone one of the exchanges'...

Um...where does one find these?

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[SuricouRaven]

Heroin is very much more addictive. I think you might be confusing it with THC, the main psychoactive component of cannabis, which is more more similar. Possibly even less addictive, depending which research you believe.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[therealkevinkretz]

You're really claiming that the only distinction between heroin and nicotine is that one's legal and one's not? Come on.

If both were readily available, it wouldn't change the fact that fewer people do heroin. It diminishes motor control, induces unconsciousness, and can *kill* you if the dosage is wrong. Though both drugs are similarly addictive, withdrawal from heroin is far more unpleasant than that from nicotine.

Anyone who wants heroin can easily obtain it. The "War On Drug[User]s" has not made drugs less accessible or even less expensive. It's probably been the most expensive failure of our government in monetary terms, and *certainly* in terms of individual freedom.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[aminorex]

Definitely time for a war on discretion.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[aminorex]

I use visa, mastercard or amex for most of my drugs. My vendors don't take paypal.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[TheCouchPotatoFamine]

nobody's confusing anything. You sound like a campus health packet. His statement is true, and there are outliers on all sides - by that I mean - people that will freak out when you take away their TV - much less any drug you care to mention. On the whole of it, heroin and nicotine are on par. (and nicotine will kill you MUCH faster, dose for dose, OD for OD.)

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Charcharodon]

I agree with that too. As long as the harder drugs are laced with birth control or sterilizers who cares if they have access to them.

As far as their behavior. If they are high and doing harm then the last thing they'll end up shooting up with is lead.

Problem solved.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Hamsterdan]

Depends on the drug... Someone how's just smoked a big dooby will be all *I love you man*, and pretty harmless. Which is not the case for harder drugs or even alcohol.

Drunk people will often start fights, get violent, same goes for blow. That's where legislation is a little messed up. Alcohol is legal, yet probably causes more problems than weed and such. just de-criminalize *soft* drugs, it's not worth spending all those resources. A friend of mine used to be a cab driver. He would often refuse to pick up drunk people because

1- They would get sick in the car
2- They wouldn't have enough money left for the ride
3- Could get violent for reason 2

OTOH, people high on weed just ended up being real smooth...

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[ultranova]

How many people do you know that smoke? How many people do you know that do heroin?

Given that tobacco users can be easily identified by their smell while heroin users can't, there seems to be a bit of a bias here.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[t2t10]

You're missing the point. The war on drugs has failed to get people off drugs; almost everybody who wants drugs gets them already. With legalization, we could reduce the harm that drugs are causing to those families and to society.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Here behind the long gone iron curtain the drug problem was virtually non-existing in those days. People have been drinking a lot... in peace (until they have enough but that's another story)

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[MightyYar]

The point? While I do disagree with the horror that the War on Drugs has caused American society, many drugs that are illegal for recreational use simply cannot be legalized because the social problems they would create compared to the two we have to deal with now would be enormous.

Social problems? Like affluent people driving into impoverished areas ravaged by the drug trade and giving money to the people doing the shooting?

I think if you legalize heroine, you might have more addictions. But if you use the tax money for education and treatment, I wager you will ruin fewer lives on balance. And addiction crosses the socio-economic lines, so politically there will be more equity. Right now the poor bear the brunt of our country's drug policy.

Re:It's not just Bitcoin.

[MightyYar]

Sigh, you do realize that the war on drugs has nothing to do with money laundering and various other shady services, right?

If we deprived organized crime of drug money, prostitution money, and gambling money, they'd be back to stealing trucks full of stereo equipment.

Much smaller operation.

The also used cash to do this for many years

[Anonymous Coward]

Your government is responsible for aiding this trade!
 
I think we are going to see a lot of anti bitcoin smokescreen stories pushed down the pipe line at us. Until they tax bitcoin. Then you'll see "Baby heart transplant paid for with bitcoin" stories in the news.

Re:The also used cash to do this for many years

[Anrego]

The lack of tracability probably makes bitcoin more apt for this task, which I think is the real story.

Overall, bitcoin has that same "cool concept used by too many of the wrong people" feeling as freenet.

Re:The also used cash to do this for many years

[compro01]

small non-sequential unmarked bills are equally untraceable, possibly more so if the bitcoin user neglected actively trying for anonymity.

Re:The also used cash to do this for many years

[CODiNE]

and BitTorrent.

Re:The also used cash to do this for many years

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

Gold is also untraceable, and it's much smaller than cash. And then there's eCache.

Great.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I, for one, do not want to have to explain to some thugtastic DEA jackboots that "hash-based currency" can be acquired by legitimately doing a bunch of math, as well as by other means...

Re:Great.

[zill]

I, for one, do not want to have to explain to some thugtastic DEA jackboots that "hash-based currency" can be acquired by legitimately doing a bunch of math, as well as by other means...

Bitcoins are made of weed? Does the President know about this yet?

Huh.

[AltGrendel]

And here I thought it'd be porn, not drugs that would get bitcoin going.

Re:Huh.

[Anonymous Coward]

why did you think of that? you can buy real sex and porno with real money, and arrange the whole thing through internet(except for the sex part and then you could exchange real money without fuss or fear of tracking or such).
drugs on the other hand are exactly the sort of thing that people would like to buy over the internet, but don't want to use paypal or such for it, in case they're busted when the shipment arrives. with bitcoin they'll have nothing on you as having paid/ordered for it.

Re:Huh.

[NevarMore]

Who the hell pays for porn?

Re:Huh.

[Abstrackt]

Enough people that they keep making it.

Re:Huh.

[Shikaku]

Ads pay for porn as well.

Re:Huh.

[cayenne8]

Who the hell pays for porn?

There are a lot of people out there....either stupid or uneductated about things enough to have no clue you can find pr0n for free.

For a fun experiment, I've been thinking of doing some kind of USENET scraping...to gather some porn for free....set up a web server and charge suckers for it, just to see how many try to pay me for free porn I get.

I have to guess I'd get a decent amount of money....just got to target the code to be careful to NOT get anything illegal out there and post it on the site.

Re:Huh.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've done this, but gathered the porn from ampland.com and thehun.net using Anawave's Websnake when I was 14. I went through viewed each image one by one and removed the ones with any male parts. Called it Ted's Fem Files. This was before bandwidth was available for mass popularity of videos.

You get in trouble because you have to have hard-copy signed releases from each of your girls on file. This is law separate from the copyright claims you'd also have to deal with.

Re:Huh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the hell pays for porn?

People who want to support the producers of it/models in it? Not everything that is created is the worst sort of handycam nastyness. Some places actually try to do original things in a way that bucks the traditional image of the industry. I remember seeing a piece on Kink.com on one of the networks, and about how they rehabbed this old building into a studio and also community center for LGTB events and art fairs and stuff.

Re:Huh.

[Anonymous Coward]

And to pay for the lawyers when you get sued for distributing someone else's content.

Re:Huh.

[cayenne8]

And to pay for the lawyers when you get sued for distributing someone else's content.

I was figuring...plenty of amateur stuff out there...people posted of themselves, etc. Not likely anyone going searching for those to sue you for...

Heck..at the very least...what about links into videos on RedTube...or is there a law against linking now?

Anyway...just looking to experiment maybe and see HOW much people would pay. And if you got notice...just comply and pull that image off.

Just was talking for fun with friends one night....wondering "Hey..why NOT put some ads on craigslist locally...see what you could get girls to do on film, for how much and signing the rights to you producing the video."

At the very least...might be a fun way to get laid a bit more. I mean, from what I understand, if you pay a girl to have sex, it is prostitution and illegal. If you get her to sign forms and film it...perfectly legal.

Re:Huh.

[Anonymous Coward]

And now with bitcoin they can't sue you since they don't know who you are :)

Re:Huh.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know, right?
The internet was practically made for getting free porn.

Re:Huh.

[Stellian]

Who the hell pays for porn?

Pedophiles.
I wonder what would the proponents of anonymous cash say when some kid will be raped live in exchange for bitcoins.

Problem will solve itself

[ErikZ]

Also, at what point did it become a good idea to buy illegal drugs over the Internet? What exactly do you plan on doing when your 10k in Cocaine doesn't show up at your doorstep?

Re:Problem will solve itself

[batquux]

It's ok, it says right on the item page that they definitely aren't cops and they only need your address for delivery purposes.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

Give them a bad rating on http://www.ratemydealer.com/
Create a Mydrugdealersucks.com blog?
Flame them in random forums?

Re:Problem will solve itself

[mikael_j]

I believe the idea with Silk Road and similar sites is that they are reputation-based. So apart from just making sure that you and the seller are in the same country you can also check his/her reputation, someone with a very good or perfect reputation is unlikely to screw you over.

Also, from what I've seen from checking out Silk Road it appears to be mostly smaller amounts of drugs being sold, 5-10 grams of marijuana, a handful of MDMA pills and similar quantities. So not exactly $10k worth of cocaine. Besides, most sellers are doing this to make money and if they want to stay in business they are likely to want to keep their good reputation (there's always the risk of someone deciding to abuse their reputation to scam people out of larger amounts of bitcoins or the police creating a bunch of fake accounts but overall the risk should be fairly low if you buy from sellers with a solid reputation, sort of how the drug trade works in real life only you don't have to come face to face with the dealer)...

Re:Problem will solve itself

[countertrolling]

Finally! A privacy policy you can believe in...

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Jack9]

Agreeing to buy and actually making the transaction are different things. People have been buying over the internet since the 90's. AOL chat was a prime place to ask "poke smot?" then escalate.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

drug dealers have a natural rating system, reputation based.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[somersault]

Someone is missing out on a good opportunity.

I actually read it as smoke pot the first time too.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

In all honesty, you have been able to buy drugs worldwide off the net since its inception. I don't see why the senators are getting so up in arms, unless its because of ulterior motivations, or a gentle push from some lobbyists. Where is the news alert about people buying drugs domestically with credit cards from the banks such as visa? Or that people use US legal tender in illegal transactions every day?

This is pointless, you've been able to purchase illegal drugs online with a huge variety of payment options. E-gold and the like was not something revolutionary, people have been using wire transfers, paypal, visa charges under the disguise of an fake product, and money orders for years.

I think the controlling powers don't like the idea of a decentralized currency, out of their reach.

But I see we skipped a week without a story from bitcoin, shucks we were on a roll.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[AmberBlackCat]

Perhaps they're trading in smaller amounts, and as long as the last deal goes well, both parties are willing to do the next deal.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[javilon]

Also, at what point did it become a good idea to buy illegal drugs over the Internet? What exactly do you plan on doing when your 10k in Cocaine doesn't show up at your doorstep?

It is easy. You start small, and if they show themselves reliable, you do bigger deals.

The last trade should be either a very small one, so you don't care a lot about the loss if they don't deliver, or if it is a bigger one, it should be a small percentage of the accumulated amount you have spent prior to it. In that case is not in the best interest of the dealer to lose a regular customer.

It is called reputation. For the dealer it takes work and effort to build a relationship with your customers, and it is worth more than what the dealer would get by taking the money from the last trade and running.

So in order for a 10k deal to happen, you would have spent something like between 100k and 1 million before. In that case, if the deal goes wrong, you should be more concerned about the loss of a good dealer than the actual money.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Rigrig]

Most people would just not buy from that person again. With the profit margins on drugs being as huge as they are, dealers make more money from only two sales than from ripping you off once.
Also, if your business model consists of consistently ripping off people willing to buy illegal drugs, my guess is it probably won't be too long before you piss off the kind of people that do believe in physical customer feedback. (Although obviously they won't be able to find you, as all the wire tapping is exclusively accessible to incorruptible people that only have your safety against terrorism, child porn, and crimethink on their mind.)

Re:Problem will solve itself

[nschubach]

Would you have it delivered to a house a block away where you know the person is at work during the day and you just go pick it up before they get home.

That's the first thing that popped into my head...

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

you show up with your laptop and work it out peer to peer in person obviously

Re:Problem will solve itself

[sootman]

> What exactly do you plan on doing when your 10k
> in Cocaine doesn't show up at your doorstep?

http://resolutioncenter.ebay.com/

I bought an item.
[x] I haven't received it yet.
[_] I received an item that does not match the seller's description.

I sold an item.
[_] I received an item that does not match the seller's description.
[_] I want to cancel a transaction.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

In Canada there's a few online companies that sell marijuana by mail order. They operate semi-openly but not take bitcoin. Cash and money orders seem to work fine.

Search for names like Bud Buddy, Pot by Post or Mary Jane Mail. Some have been operating for many years with no problems.

Some places also sell pot by mailorder to patients for medicinal use, but none of the above ask for a doctor's note.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

At what point did everyone assume everyone else is an idiot who doesn't think of ways to protect themselves?

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

Buying drugs online probably isn't ideal for customers. I imagine some protection measures exist to reduce or make it difficult for the authorities to track down legit dealers. Going after customers I would imagine would be much easier. I bet those running these sites are making dealers run through allot of hoops to get listed. If dealers are in fact cops it is going to damage the reputation of the site for being a safe site to order drugs from. If the dealers are screened though it potentially could make it more difficult to get in. But if you have enough cops selling drugs then fail to arrest people long enough and those cop dealers become #1 trusted dealers on a site and you have a number of these cops getting good reputations you could tarnish the reputation of the site.

Other illicit activity is probably easier to conduct through the web where neither users or sellers have to be identified and good need not be shipped or received. I am mainly referring to illicit activity such as selling pirated software, ebooks, music, movies, pornography, and other similar content. I could see somebody setting up a website that beats Amazon, iTunes, Netflix, and Hulu.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

You deny any and all knowledge of the package. Hopefully it had someone elses name on it anyway.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

"Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4"

No, it is not.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[EnsilZah]

Comment:
Instead of 10k in Cocaine package contained bobcat.
Would not buy again.

Re:Problem will solve itself

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem right now is that it is out-priced! 5 btc for that MDMA pill? 100$? you must be kiding?

Re:Problem will solve itself

[aminorex]

With an unlimited budget, you can generate sock puppets with infinite reputation. Unless the web of trust is rooted soundly, it can be rotten from the root.

Well

[Anonymous Coward]

The big guys in the drug market also have their own currencies, so what. crack down the MC clubs instead

Hash Based

[jeremiahstanley]

Nothing like using a hash to score some hash.

Re:Hash Based

[sargon666777]

+1 Funny Wish I had some mod points

Re:Hash Based

[aminorex]

When I was in high school we referred to dope as "math". I'd tell my mom we were going to Tishie's house to do our math.

What country?

[ArhcAngel]

Are these web sites and deals happening inside the US? If not what are US Senators going to do about it?

Re:What country?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you been following what the DoJ and DHS has been doing at all for the past few months?

Re:What country?

[Jeremi]

Are these web sites and deals happening inside the US? If not what are US Senators going to do about it?

I'd imagine mandatory filtering of Bitcoin traffic by ISPs will be suggested, at some point. Inevitably we'll end up with the Great Firewall of USA; fortunately Cisco and friends have plenty of experience implementing that sort of thing already.

Re:What country?

[blueg3]

If both parties in the trade, the website facilitating the trade, the domain registrar for the website, and "financial agencies" brokering the transaction are all located outside the U.S., nothing.

Re:What country?

[Issarlk]

I don't know bitcoin but I bet it's encrypted and low traffic. Detecting and filtering is would be an amazing technical feat in an ocean of TCP connections.

Re:What country?

[Jeremi]

I don't know bitcoin but I bet it's encrypted and low traffic. Detecting and filtering is would be an amazing technical feat in an ocean of TCP connections.

I know that, and you know that, but our esteemed Senators probably don't know that. So they will (I predict) enact a law requiring ISPs to block BitCoin, and the ISPs will comply with as little effort as possible, by installing a simplistic filter based on some known characteristic of the existing implementation, and then the BitCoin people will change a port number (or whatever) to get past that filter, and round and round we go. It should be almost as entertaining as watching Apple and MacDefender fight it out.

False Flag.

[EasyTarget]

Welcome to the first sign that the Wunch of Bankers that lord it over us have spotted a threat..

Re:False Flag.

[Nethemas the Great]

As far as I know there exists nothing to prevent bankers from providing services for Bitcoin. This one I think is simply governments becoming concerned by a trend. It also really doesn't have anything to do with traceability. You can't track where a piece of paper goes any more than you can an electron. Monetary control is the big issue, and this doesn't exist so readily with these non-traditional currencies. It might not count for much now, but this does pave the way for something potentially much bigger and far more disruptive to monetary policy down the road.

Re:False Flag.

[Goaway]

What's so false about that flag? It's well known people use bitcoin to buy drugs. Probably most of its actual value comes from that.

Is anyone surprised?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is anyone surprised over an anonymous payment system?

Hay! News flash - The drug trade also uses COLD HARD CASH and refillable debit cards.

so illegal businesses are using illegal currency

[Anonymous Coward]

in related news, ATF and FBI raids have also found cartel trafficking drugs and using antique bottle caps as currency. Numerous antique shops around the country are being investigated for money laundering cases.

Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck the busybodies who think they get to decide what people put into their bodies. Fuck the moral crusaders. The less control the "government" has over everything the better.

Bitcoin features

[sourcerror]

Bitcoin has the feature, that it can't be inflated (claimed by their proponents). However, that's very good reason, why government might want to outlaw it: you're avoiding a tax, the "inflation tax".

They just need some stories about some drug dealers, pedophiles, terrorists who use Bitcoin, and it will be pretty easy to crack it down.

Re:Bitcoin features

[bmo]

>Bitcoin has the feature, that it can't be inflated (claimed by their proponents).

More than that. If buttcoin actually becomes an actual alternative to paper currency, it has built-in hyperdeflation.

There are 21 million buttcoins (roughly) to be mined, and that's it. Over time you have fewer buttcoins (because they can be destroyed) chasing after more goods (because of economic growth).

This means that any leveraged purchases are a fools' errand - capital machinery, durable goods, houses, bought on credit, are the worst deals in the world because you pay with money that is worth more over time. Deflation serves only the hoarders and creates a braking effect on an economy, because why spend money today when it will be worth more tomorrow?

Buttcoin is a scam made to enrich the hoarding early adopters. It's a sort-of ponzi scheme.

And now it's being used for money laundering.

The sooner it's stomped out of existence the better.

--
BMO

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit,

It's a currency tied to computational power vs complexity. The complexity of the problem increases over time but so does availability of computing power. If that balance is ever upset the value of bitcoins will plumit/skyrocket just like the value of gold would if a fleet of galleons went down with the royal treasury or some yokel struck it big in his back yard.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

That is the exact reason the US no longer has a $500 bill. They stopped its circulation to make it more difficult to transport large sums of currency.

Re:Bitcoin features

[MozeeToby]

Inflation at a controlled rate is good for the economy. Deflation, which is what bitcoins are designed from the ground up to produce, is much more dangerous. In a deflationary system, your money is worth more tomorrow than it is today. Why bother investing that money in anything when the money will be worth more tomorrow than it is today? And if the bitcoin economy is increasing fast enough, you'll reach a point where there is no conceivable investment that is better than just stashing bitcoins in a safe place. Which, of course, restricts the number of bitcoins in actual circulation even further, increasing demand, increasing the value, and making a mattress full of money an even better investment.

Obviously inflation beyond a certain point is also dangerous, but deflation it creates a positive feedback cycle of hoarding cash. No investment, no loans, bare minimum spending. One of the reasons for the Federal Reserve dropping and keeping interests rates to near 0% for the past 3 years was to prevent the US entering the deflation spiral, and it's still not entirely clear if they succeeded; prices on many commodities have dropped for months at a time and the measured inflation rate was negative in many areas of the country last year.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that it's useful for buying things which the government doesn't want you to have pretty much guarantees that it will be used.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

> This means that any leveraged purchases are a fools' errand - capital machinery, durable goods, houses, bought on credit, are the worst deals in the world because you pay with money that is worth more over time. Deflation serves only the hoarders and creates a braking effect on an economy.

Yeah, this is exactly why Apple (or any other computer makes) has not sold a single computer in the 30 years it's been in business. People aren't stupid and realize if they bought a computer today, they'd be wasting all their money, since they can always buy the same computer much cheaper two years from now.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

>Deflation serves only the hoarders and creates a braking effect on an economy, because why spend money today when it will be worth more tomorrow?

BS. Deflation serves almost everyone. Deflation is the natural effect of technological progress and capital accumulation. Why spend money today? Because you want stuff. Take an industry with major deflation you may have knowledge of - computers. I see no one spends money today on a computer because they will be able to get a better one tomorrow - right. Fear of deflation and adoration of inflation are just nonsense promoted by the state and the status quo because it benefits *them*.

Re:Bitcoin features

[DerekLyons]

There are 21 million buttcoins (roughly) to be mined, and that's it. Over time you have fewer buttcoins (because they can be destroyed) chasing after more goods (because of economic growth).

And that's one of the reasons we've moved from a hard currency economy to a fiat one - because hard currency economies are highly limited and difficult to grow. And hard currency economies aren't, contrary to popular belief, any more stable than fiat currency economies. When you literally cannot physically (or virtually in the case of Bitcoins) obtain the currency you need to make purchases or pay debts - the whole economy comes to a screeching halt.

Re:Bitcoin features

[blueg3]

It has already been subject to staggering inflation: the value of a bitcoin relative to purchasable goods (and to other currencies) has increased dramatically.

The creators seem to think that you can't "create more bitcoins" outside of the predetermined schedule (and eventually, can't create any at all), which is only true in a sense. If bitcoins were popular enough, an enterprising individual would set up a bitcoin bank where you can invest bitcoins and take out bitcoin loans. There, now you've created bitcoins in exactly the same way that modern banks create money (er, "increase the money supply") without actually mining new bitcoins.

Of course, once you're near the bitcoin limit, it would be silly to take on bitcoin debt. Since there's a fixed quantity of backing (real bitcoins, as opposed to bitcoin-denominated notes), it could easily experience deflation, which makes debt very expensive.

While certain sorts of people like to claim that inflation is a tax, it promotes owning equity over currency and is beneficial for anyone with debt. Deflation is fairly destructive. (Hoping for neither never seems to work out.)

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to take your argument seriously, but I can't since you think the term "buttcoin" is clever and are therefore an idiot.

Re:Bitcoin features

[DarkOx]

I am sorry but that is just not correct. BT has the problem that there is a known limit on how much can ever exist and that number is probably to small. Currencies based on some commodity like Gold on the other hand, provided the exchange rate is fixed properly IE there is enough currency in proportion to the likely amount of total gold you don't have this problem. Now that might not be what you mean by hard currency, ie the currency is not actually made from the commodity just has a fixed exchange rate firmly enforced.

Want to print more currency, no problem just mine more gold. This means that indeed if the economy needs more liquidity, needs more velocity it can be had. It can only be had if the economy is actually productive enough to invest resources in gold mining however. So what a hard currency does do is ensure that some politicians can't just pass an unfunded stimulus package to hand out money to their friends while devaluing the money in your pocket.

With a hard currency if the economy is really grown the money supply can be grown, if its not growing theft from savers is prevented.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Akvum]

Yeah, but bitcoin is infinitely sub-dividable, so that argument is irrelevant. Everyone will always be able to get enough to transact. The instabilities in hard money economies are due to fractional reserves creating inflations, or centralized debasement (coin clipping, etc). In reality, all economies are difficult to grow. Inflationary economies just front-load the prosperity, which is popular, as we are impatient. The real weakness of bitcoin is that it is only as strong as SHA-256. When that is broken, your bitcoins become basically worthless.

Re:Bitcoin features

[sourcerror]

I really hate to defend Bitcoin, but ...

"If bitcoins were popular enough, an enterprising individual would set up a bitcoin bank where you can invest bitcoins and take out bitcoin loans. There, now you've created bitcoins in exactly the same way that modern banks create money (er, "increase the money supply") without actually mining new bitcoins."

That's not true. How would you able to give more in loans, than what you've collected in debit accounts?
It can only work if there's a network of banks, each accepting the virtual/non-cash money of the others. For this to work you need an economy where cash use is rare, and people keep most of their money in bank accounts.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Just so we're clear on this: There can never be an inflation-proof currency as long as there is credit. Most of the "money" out there doesn't exist. It's just a number in a computer which says that somebody owes somebody else this amount. People can then borrow against this outstanding debt and *poof* money out of thin air. This can happen with gold, with dollars, with euros and of course also with bitcoins. With bitcoins it practically MUST happen or the whole scheme collapses because there aren't even enough bitcoins to go around that every person in the world can have at least one.

People who want Bitcoin to become a widely used "currency" are economically suicidal.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

What is Buttcoin?

Re:Bitcoin features

[sourcerror]

I never said inflation is a bad thing/deflation is good thing.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Is gold also a scam, as there can't be mined more as there is and early buyers can buy cheap?

Re:Bitcoin features

[geoffrobinson]

I'm not a monetary expert, but it seems that deflation is feared a lot more than it should be. In 1920, there was a massive recession with a lot of deflation. It was very bad for about a year or so and then got better quickly.

It seems the central bankers are doing a great job in preventing deflation. And we go from bubble to a different bubble to a different bubble. No thanks. I'd rather try the deflation for a while.

Re:Bitcoin features

[synaptik]

They are divisible down to 10^-8 parts. So there are actually 2.1 quadrillion separate entities available for trading. Still deflationary, but not as drastic as you paint it to be.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not going to go through and systematically debunk all the points made here. Go out and do your own research. Every single thing in this post is a fabrication and can be easily disproven with a little research.

Re:Bitcoin features

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

Under a gold standard gold appreciates with value over time, yet somehow we had that whole industrial revolution thing, which was pretty much purely capital goods driven, under a gold standard. I say you're fear-mongering. When you go to Starbucks, are you thinking about how it might be better to hold off in gettin' a latte until next week when you're currency will be worth more? Don't you think the makers of latte makers need to have equipment to make the latte makers? And don't they all need buildings, too?

Re:Bitcoin features

[synaptik]

There are different kinds of deflation. Monetary deflation-- which is what the GP was referring to -- can lead to markets seizing up.

Re:Bitcoin features

[blueg3]

I really hate to defend Bitcoin, but ...

Don't worry, this doesn't count as defending bitcoins.

How would you able to give more in loans, than what you've collected in debit accounts?

Oh, you can't. Well, you could, if people accepted promissory notes from your bank as acceptable payment. But let's assume they don't do that.

This is a ten-second lesson on how banks increase the money supply:
Alice deposits 100 bitcoins in the Bank. Alice has a 100-bc deposit receipt. The Bank has a 100 bc and a 100-bc liability to Alice.
Charlie loans 100 bitcoins from the Bank. Charlie has 100 bc and Alice has a 100-bc deposit receipt. The Bank has 0 bc, a 100-bc liability, and 100 bc owed to it.

While someone who is trying to track where the "real" currency is will say that only 100 bc exists between the three entities, by typical accounting methods, the three people combined now have 200 bc: Charlie's cash and Alice's promissory note.

A fair objection is that you can't spend this promissory note, but to handle this, you need a bigger example: a bank that has many deposits, makes a fair number of loans, and then keeps a fraction of the deposited currency in cash to cover withdrawals. Averaged over all the depositors, the course of a transaction goes: a person withdraws a small fraction of their total deposit for a purchase, the money is transferred to the other party in the transaction, the other party deposits it in their bank. The actual cash is outside of banks for a brief time. Now you just need a system where if too much cash accrues in one bank and too little in the other, the banks exchange cash reserves. Welcome to fractional-reserve banking, the modern method for increasing the money supply.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Akvum]

One can make a similar argument about paper moneies, as they all have hyperinflations built-in. This conclusion is easily reached by simply looking at history; no fiat system has ever survived the abuses politics subject it to, not to mention fractional-reserves being abused to the point of fraud.

Bitcoin won't necesarily enrich the early adopters. It would be more accurate to say that it enriches savers at the expense of spenders. To be fair, unlimited monies (practically all fiat monies) with their inflations do the opposite; they reward spenders and borrowers by undercutting rates of interest, and punish savers by making their savings lose purchasing power. By this measure, if bitcoin is a ponzi scheme, then all other money is at least a pyramid scheme.

I don't see bitcoin as being bad from an economic point of view. The people who want a store of value *can* use this (so long as SHA-256 is safe), as it would benefit them; though they'll probably hold on to their gold instead. They can then use the inflating government money for their loans, and get a good deal both places.

Also, don't be playa hatin' on the money launderers. It's a crime that doesn't exist without income taxation, which is to say not really a crime in the classic sense, as nobody is harmed; it's really just tax evasion -- which itself was not criminal until fairly recently (it was only a tort).

And good luck stamping out stores of value from existence. People have tried outlawing gold, silver, and nearly all other forms of capital; all it has ever accomplished is impoverishing the society that tries. Maybe that's why your post is so heavy on pejoratives, like "buttcoin".

Re:Bitcoin features

[lupinstel]

Those are all good points however what really convinced me was your highlighting that the term "bit" sounds like "butt" and therefore bitcoin should not be utilized. Also based on the "buttcoin" insight you provided, I can infer that the proponents of bitcoin all have stupid faces and additionally smell like poo. +1 insightful

Re:Bitcoin features

[sourcerror]

In a fixed pool currency you can't charge intrest, as there's not enough money to pay them back. So banking wouldn't really work with Bitcoin.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Never understood why deflation will cause people to spend less. Deflation with a fixed money supply means prices must go down. In my experience, when prices go down, people will start buying more of the item that has gotten cheaper, not less.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Nursie]

Not infinite, but near enough, sure.

Even without that effect though, nobody will spend bitcoins as the value will keep rising due to the limited supply... either way I dom't think I'll bother.

Re:Bitcoin features

[compro01]

Want to print more currency, no problem just mine more gold.

And when all recoverable deposits of gold have been mined out (including the tons of gold dissolved in the ocean), then what?

Eventually, you're going to run out of recoverable deposits. Bitcoin operates the same way, only the end supply is known, rather than requiring guesswork.

Re:Bitcoin features

[blueg3]

You most certainly can.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

It can only be had if the economy is actually productive enough to invest resources in gold mining however

Heh. Actual gold history was nothing like that. You write as if it was a modern top-down managed economy with some authoritative body deciding when to mine and when not to mine.

In real life, people were always looking for gold, because it'd personally make them rich. It had nothing to do with the overall state of the local, national, or global economy, and everything to do with when someone got lucky. Finding a gold-rich area automatically meant mining it, and the ensuing inflation. Lack of finds automatically meant deflation. The drive to do so, and the cost/difficulty of mining operations, were and are completely separate from the needs of the economy. You know how late-stage gold-backed economies eventually managed the problem? By basically making their national currency fiat money anyway - price the gold in dollars instead of the other way around, and you can better control the ratio. But of course, once you do that, the actual physical act of keeping the gold around is redundant and expensive...

Re:Bitcoin features

[Znork]

The idea that inflation is good for the economy is dubious. It's certainly good to those nearest the origination of currency, but whether it amounts to anything but a covert taxation for many is debatable.

The threat of deflation is overstated. Many industries, particularly the computing industries, live with constant deflation. It doesn't stop people from investing in computing hardware when needed and prudent to do so. In contrast, there are no significant reasons why investment without demand would be favourable to the economy in a longer term; rather the opposite, malinvestments driven by mispricing of money are strongly implicated in boom-bust cycles.

Things becoming cheaper might not be the threat claimed by a segment of elitist economists. In fact, people might actually understand deflation a whole lot better than the current random bubble economy.

Re:Bitcoin features

[IamTheRealMike]

But Bitcoin does not deflate. It inflates until it reaches stability and then stops. There might be small amounts of erosion over time, but it's a huge pool of coins (not 21 million as each one is subdivisible into 8 decimal places). The "deflation" people talk about is assuming the Bitcoin economy grows. If the economy grows and the currency doesn't, the coins become worth more. It's a circular argument because if increasing value leads to hoarding, the economy will shrink and the currency will become worth less. And as pointed out, there are lots of examples where waiting gets you more, yet people still buy.

Re:Bitcoin features

[DerekLyons]

No, I'm correct - you're just utterly clueless.

Crashes of exactly the kind I described have happened multiple times throughout history. The US, with it's rapidly growing economy, was hit by them several times in the 19th century - despite multiple gold rushes and expanding gold mining activities.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

obviously, sha256 can and will be replaced when it's broken or considered to be too weak. same for divisibility. it's not a weakness, nor an argument, for that matter. just keep in mind how young the bitcoin project is and that there is still room for improvement. so we actually need constructive discussions and research (and action), rather than buttcoin rants. or do we? you might as well go on shopping with your fiat money and pretend nothing has happened. ignorance and lazyness. worked for centuries, maybe it still does until your dead or something. if not, you will nonetheless enjoy the benefits of the new monetary system. but wait...damn. who the hell actually wants improvement? it's such a...subversive thing. we need to outlaw progress! and...and new ideas! now! before it's to late!

Re:Bitcoin features

[DerekLyons]

Yeah, but bitcoin is infinitely sub-dividable, so that argument is irrelevant.

Right - being infinitely sub-divideable means you have an endless supply of them on demand. Oh, wait. It doesn't.
 

Everyone will always be able to get enough to transact.

Um, no. You can only get bitcoins if someone is willing to give you bitcoins (as charity, or in exhange for goods or services). But, the problem is, like other hard currencies, their built in deflation means their is an incentive to hoard and a disincentive to spend - which has, historically lead to exactly the kind of crash I described.
 
How divisible they are is irrelevant.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

"because why spend money today when it will be worth more tomorrow?"

Because there's something that you want or need today and are willing to pay the current price for. The deflation scaremongering is by governments, banks, and industries that are afraid they're going to lose their gouge margins.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Amouth]

then we will get it from an asteroid?

really your argument for gold is the same as "what happens when we can't make more paper to print money on?"

i'm not saying that it is flawed to know how much there is - i'm just saying your way of arguing it by comparing it to gold is flawed.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha ha ha. Oh so much ignorance about bitcoin. You just go on hating and I will just carry on getting richer and richer while you sit out the game crying on the sideline.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone claiming this has no clue how money supply or inflation actually work....

Re:Bitcoin features

[Vaphell]

Deflation serves only the hoarders and creates a braking effect on an economy, because why spend money today when it will be worth more tomorrow?

so what we have instead is economy greased with purchasing power stolen from savers and people on discretionary income, got it.

In theory it's a nice idea to have money pool and economy going hand in hand but in reality governments have every incentive to underestimate the inflation rate. That way they can tax people in almost unnoticed way for additional percent or two, borrow more to bribe voters with 'freebies' and repay less in terms of real purchasing power down the road. I don't trust politicians and central bankers so i'd take deflation any day. Deflation biased, 'natural' system with no central planners is simple, elegant, honest and it rewards responsible people, just like it should be. It may not produce nice GDP numbers which is the fixation of all inflation lovers, but i think we may all agree that last few years have proven that GDP is a horseshit, because it says nothing of value about fundamentals.

Besides, when you hold the dollar note (or whatever currency you have) you are like a shareholder of a company. Economy of your country gets bigger thanks to increased productivity and created wealth, your share is worth more. Pretty logical, i'd say.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Bitcoin has the feature, that it can't be inflated (claimed by their proponents).

Say, if you have some of them bitcoins, would you like to deposit them on my newly founded bitbank for a fixed period? I'll give you a certificate of ownership that can be traded just like actual bitcoins in the meantime so you don't actually lose anything and as a bonus get some interest as well.

Re:Bitcoin features

[import]

Admittedly I may not understand this that well but my impression is that it's flexible enough that it can be patched in the future for things such as SHA-256 going out of style.

Re:Bitcoin features

[DamnStupidElf]

Except in this case there really would be 100 bitcoins because anyone could go look at the hash chain and discover exactly who (or which public key) has the bitcoins they just deposited in the bank. In one sense that's comforting because you can verify a certain fractional reserve in the bank. Over time, it would be possible to trace the inflation of the system and determine exactly how many original bitcoins a given "loaned bitcoin" would be worth; this would give an ultimate risk calculation of how much value could be lost from the economy in a loan-failure induced depression. It would also be easy to see who held the real wealth in the system; those who actually owned the private keys the real bitcoins were assigned to. If bitcoin were to become a worldwide currency it would be natural for governments and large banks to be in possession of the actual bitcoins (much like gold reserves) while the inflated currency derived from bitcoins was circulated. The other possibility is that some sort of exchange develops where real percentages of bitcoins are exchanged for the derived currency at a non 1-1 rate. If deflation is slow enough this could be accomplished through the bitcoin transaction fees. Since presumably lower fees could be charged on the derived currency it would eventually become economic to trade 1 real bitcoin for 1.01 or 1.001 derived unit of currency, cheaper than bitcoin transaction fees. This would tend to distribute supplies of actual bitcoins relatively uniformly and prevent a buildup of real bitcoins anywhere in the economy. While it's difficult to control demand for currency, a fully open economic model may actually control demand if everyone has full knowledge of the potential value of bitcoins versus a derived currency. There is no reason to receive (or issue) a loan for x derived bitcoins if that loan reduces the effective value of derived bitcoins relative to real bitcoins more than some percentage.

Note: IANAE.

Re:Bitcoin features

[petermgreen]

The complexity of the problem is auto-adjusted to keep the block generation rate pretty much constant. A sudden increase in computing power will cause a spike in block generation rates but then the network will increase the difficulty and pull things back down again.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Requiem18th]

All the more reason for me to get in as soon as possible.

Re:Bitcoin features

[import]

There have already been some great posts about how deflation actually reflects progress better than inflation. I tend to agree with that and further think it's just a different way of seeing the same value: a hot dog is worth what a hot dog is no matter what you use to pay for it, theoretically. So there's no change in anything except our perception of value. Given that, I'd argue the status quo should be to "hoard", actually it's much more like conserve. Consider that, at some point, we're talking about the stimulation of certain sectors of industry, e.g., whaling or clear-cutting, but also in general. I don't think an inflationary currency accurately reflects the cost of those activities...

Re:Bitcoin features

[import]

With current precision, a single bitcoin would have to be worth 1 million to have equivalent precision to the USD. That is, when 1c USD equals 0.00000001 BTC. As I understand it, the precision can be expanded practically to infinity, e.g., using big number libraries far beyond the precision of your average joe's ALU.

Re:Bitcoin features

[import]

"Crashes of exactly the kind I described have happened multiple times throughout history. The US, with it's rapidly growing economy, was hit by them several times in the 19th century - despite multiple gold rushes and expanding gold mining activities."

And look where the US is today... hardly a spec in the economic big picture...

Re:Bitcoin features

[blueg3]

Except in this case there really would be 100 bitcoins because anyone could go look at the hash chain and discover exactly who (or which public key) has the bitcoins they just deposited in the bank.

It depends on your definition of "how much money" there is. You can do fractional-reserve banking and artificially increase the money supply even with things like pieces of gold. (It's easier if you can issue promissory notes that people accept as money, but that's not mandatory.) Sure, you can accurately measure where the money is and what the money multiplier is, but you can do a pretty decent job of that now.

Re:Bitcoin features

[hedwards]

I'm going to have to call bullshit there. Hard currencies are stable precisely because you can't grow them whenever you like. Which means that you don't see things like the current massive inflation in the USD when jack ass millionaires decide that it's fun to print out lots of extra currency and set interest rates near zero.

With a hard currency you can't do that so you tend to see deflation in the currency value with more buying power over time. But at a relatively predictable rate. Whereas with a fiat currency you end up with no guarantee of any sort that you won't see massive inflation, massive deflation or something else completely in a given time period.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Inflation favors those who do. Deflation favors those who do not. Saving money looks like it's the responsible thing to do, but it is not. Investing money is the responsible thing to do. People like things to happen, so people should like (a little) inflation.

Re:Bitcoin features

[fastest fascist]

This may be. We'll see. How would you get people to use an inflationary version of Bitcoin, though, when they are likely to value the deflationary currency higher?

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

With bitcoin, there are no debts to pay. And unlike cents, they are divisible. The economy will still run regardless of hoarding.

Re:Bitcoin features

[dev.null.matt]

This is a ten-second lesson on how banks increase the money supply: Alice deposits 100 bitcoins in the Bank. Alice has a 100-bc deposit receipt. The Bank has a 100 bc and a 100-bc liability to Alice. Charlie loans 100 bitcoins from the Bank. Charlie has 100 bc and Alice has a 100-bc deposit receipt. The Bank has 0 bc, a 100-bc liability, and 100 bc owed to it.

While someone who is trying to track where the "real" currency is will say that only 100 bc exists between the three entities, by typical accounting methods, the three people combined now have 200 bc: Charlie's cash and Alice's promissory note.

You forgot the fact that Charlie, like the bank, has a 100 bc liability (to the bank). Thus there are in fact, only 100bc in the system as described. In other words:

Alice 100b bc deposit receipt (+100bc)

Bank 100 bc "depoist receipt" (loan to Charlie) (+100bc), 100bc liability to Alice (-100bc)

Charlie 100bc cash (+100bc), 100bc liability to bank (-100bc)

Re:Bitcoin features

[shutdown -p now]

You really don't help your argument by using words such as "buttcoin". It's similar to "libertard" or "M$" - it adds absolutely nothing constructive to the debate, and is immature to the point were anything else you're saying after using it is going to be ignored.

Re:Bitcoin features

[blueg3]

I don't forget it: in account of money supply, the liability to the bank doesn't count. If the bank has third-party reserves, both Charlie's money and Alice's money can be "spent". The total actual currency remains fixed at 100 bc, but the money supply is increased by virtue of making partial-reserve loans.

Both Wikipedia and Khan Academy have fairly good descriptions of this not-so-obvious effect.

Re:Bitcoin features

[compro01]

Yes. The rules (what constitutes a valid block) for the block chain can be changed arbitrarily as long as you get the majority (preferably a large majority, otherwise you could end up with a fork) of the hashing power in the network to agree on it. You could expand the precision, change the hash algorithm, etc. all on the fly.

Re:Bitcoin features

[compro01]

The complexity doesn't increase over time, it increases as computational power does. The target/difficulty auto adjusts every 2016 blocks so that the next 2016 blocks will take 2 weeks (1 block per 10 minutes). At best, you can upset the balance on a short term, then the difficulty adjusts itself and the block rate goes back to normal.

Re:Bitcoin features

[synaptik]

You seem to be simultaneously getting my point, and not getting it.

But Bitcoin does not deflate. It inflates until it reaches stability and then stops.

You are talking about *now*, and you are correct that BC is currently in a planned inflationary period.[*] Whereas, I am talking about *later*, once the inflationary period is over. Also it doesn't just "stop" inflating. It reverses direction and deflates, for the two usual reasons:
* BCs getting permanently lost
* The money supply not growing with the economy, and/or the number of people participating in that economy.

Yes I know, there are really 2.1 quadrillion pieces of currency available for trade, not 21 million. I've mentioned that myself in another reply to this article. That doesn't mean that Monetary Deflation doesn't happen. It's no where near as severe as what the "ZOMG only 21million" crowd is crowing about, but it happens nonetheless.

The "deflation" people talk about is assuming the Bitcoin economy grows. If the economy grows and the currency doesn't, the coins become worth more.

You're right, that is the deflation that I was talking about. It's called Money Supply-Side Deflation. And it's a positive feed-back loop. That's why economists fear it.

It's a circular argument because if increasing value leads to hoarding, the economy will shrink and the currency will become worth less.

More like a bubble, then a crash.

Don't confuse price deflation with monetary deflation. Different causes, and different effects.

The libertarian in me likes the ideals behind BitCoin. But I think it would have been better with a small measure of permanent inflation built into the system. A little bit of inflation is actually a good thing; it promotes investment.

[*] Except if someone's harddrive gets corrupted and they lose some or all of their BCs. So lets call it a "planned inflationary period, punctuated by sporadic and unpredictable deflationary events of varying magnitude." This is possibly the 'erosion' you mentioned.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Please stop repeating the broken economic theory that is responsible for the utter ruin that is the global economy today and the entire basis of the repeated cycles of growing and popping economic bubbles we experience.

This is trivial to disprove. Bitcoin is hardly the only limited resource considered to have innate value. If you were correct it would be impossible to purchase gold for instance.

Bitcoin carries a certain profit potential and a risk factor. As long as there are other, more risky, things with a higher profit potential; bitcoin won't stagnate because there will be those who will want to buy that profit potential and those who want to divest themselves of risk.

Additionally, you are forgetting that this is a world of consumers. Most consume more than they make. It stands to reason that this will remain true of those with bitcoin. Even if they can borrow, bitcoin would have to deflate faster than their debt increased for it to make sense to horde and this is unlikely.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why bother investing that money in anything when the money will be worth more tomorrow than it is today?"

Because the something will yield a greater return than the rate of deflation. No matter how fast bitcoin rises there will always be something like this, for example, bitcoin mining equipment just becomes an even better investment with bitcoin. Another great example is the drug venture. As a rule risk and potential profits go hand in hand, the drug trade is very high risk so drugs carry a greater potential profit than bitcoin. As a consequence, it makes sense to spend your bitcoin on drugs.

There is also nothing that is going to change the fact that most people have a net negative bottom line and can't horde something valuable. They need to spend it in order to eat.

Given the volatility of bitcoin, it isn't likely that anyone will horde it or hang on to it for too long.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider that, while you can purchase fractional bitcoins, people are already hoarding them. They've gone from like $2/ea a few months ago to $18 each. I don't know how anyone can run a business exclusively with a currency where everyone wants to hoard the currency, knowing it's (in theory) going to go up sharply in the short term. That and, having to use an api just to figure out how many bitcoins to accept in trade for the same service every day.

Re:Bitcoin features

[sourcerror]

I mean, in a fixed pool money system, with positive intrest rates, it's physically impossible to repay all debts for everyone; because the money needed to do that simply don't exist. Simply the total sum of assets is more than the total sum of liabilities.

Re:Bitcoin features

[blueg3]

Only if everyone has debts.

Re:Bitcoin features

[ka9dgx]

With bitcoins, there is no way to lend money you don't have. This makes it impossible to do fractional reserve banking without coming up with some for of promissory note that can be substituted. (If people had an option, they would never take a paper dollar promise instead of a real silver dollar, would they?)

On the other hand it is easy to charge interest. It would be darn foolish to risk your hard earned bitcoins by lending them out without expecting at least some return on your investment to cover the risk and opportunity costs. Earning interest on money isn't evil... being able to earn interest on money you don't have IS evil.

The prohibition of fractional reserve banking is a VERY good attribute of bitcoin, as it discourages reckless speculation of bitcoins. (Not to say that the whole bitcoin market itself isn't in a bubble, though)...

Re:Bitcoin features

[Nursie]

Do you understand that available precision is only a small part of the deflationary pressure that bitcoin puts itself under?

How low you can go is irrelevant to the general theme that bitcoins are limited, therefore IF (and it's highly unlikely anyway) the currency launches into general use then the value of a bitcoin rockets upwards. As more people join this keeps happening. Goods and services must constantly revise their prices downwards and anyone that does not need to trade in bitcoins (i.e. people who still use another currency) can and will just hoard them. Why would you do anything else?

Not to mention that those who have played the games since the early days become rich as the value rises, which is a disincentive for anyone else to bother joining in now or later.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

I would just like to sent out a hearty welcome to Paypal's head attorney. Thank's for dropping in.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

"The sooner it's stomped out of existence the better."

What an unbelievably intolerant and malicious attitude to have towards your fellow citizens.

If someone wants to use an alternate currency, let them. Don't wish harm on them.

It's amazing how many adults there are that have the morality of a spoiled 5 year old.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Why spend money today? Because you can make more than you lose to deflation and spending money today, tomorrow.The incentives are the same, the bar is just raised a lot to induce investment. Is that a good thing. Probably not. But investment will still occur or extraordinary profits will never materialize for anyone, and there's always people who want those extraordinary profits so badly, they;'ll take the risk. Like ugly guys who unless they're rich, will never otherwise get laid.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Hard currencies are extremely regressive since they quantitatively and artificially link a number of things which have no real relationship to each other - the amount of currency available to a civilization, the number of goods and services and the sum of all transactions in all economies, the amount of some substance (typically gold) extractable by the civilization and the natural and practical limits of physical divisibility of the said substance.

If you're going to want to be paid in actual gold, then how do you deal in very small amounts? What about micropayments? What does 5 cents worth of gold look like and how do you know you received it and not 5.1 cents? Remember, the anti-fiat currency advocates demand that "real" hard currency be available on demand (or you have a defacto fiat currency) . So how do you propose to arrange things so that demand can be serviced? You can't deal in flecks of gold as a matter of practicality, and since all economic activity is to be assigned a one to one correspondence to what real gold there is, the value for a given amount skyrockets over time. This means you have to subdivide the substance further and further down in order to have a nickel's worth.

Nixon, the president who took us off the gold standard, was right- it's barbaric. It equates the quantity of a shiny metal with "permissible" prosperity. It's just stupid.

Re:Bitcoin features

[DriedClexler]

Yeah, good point, no one's ever bought a computer because they could just wait and buy a better one.

Re:Bitcoin features

[Anonymous Coward]

If you hold debt, deflation does not serve you. Given the current culture of debt (including "good debt" such as student loans and home mortgages) I'd think that it serves only a minority.

Strangely worded

[xednieht]

The $US dollar is by far the most popular currency used in narcotics trade.

Re:Strangely worded

[morgaen]

Is this in the United States of the World? The Euro is quite popular.

Next story

[guruevi]

Dealers sell drugs to users using local currency, Senators pass a law to outlaw the $100 bill.

Re:Next story

[Anonymous Coward]

They need to outlaw drugs while they're at it.

Re:Next story

[StillNeedMoreCoffee]

Yes, the government has already required banks to report any cash transactions using a lot of 100 bills or transactions over I think it was $3000 that are unusual for a client to the government. I think the penalty was $250k for each unreported incident and they nailed one East Coast back as an example. I was working for a bank and had to write the reporting code when that first happened. That was about 8 or so years ago if I remember. So they have not outlawed the $100 bill but recognized its important role in drug traffic and other illegal activities and have the bank locked down for automatic snitching for them. So it appears that part of the world has started to adapt, but I suspect that regular currency is still by far the most used.

But then make weed legal and tax it. That would clear the cost of the people arrested and held in prisons which we pay for, not to mention the cost of the prosecutions and the profit of private prison companies. It would also cut out a lot of the financing for organized crime and help reduce the government defiicit an get more jobs for people, esp famers, and the byproduct of hemp are there as well. We went through this with alcohol and have been flirting with it with tobacco. With tabacco they have taken a mid road, allowing the sale, with warnings, and limiting the effect on other people.

Re:Next story

[h4rr4r]

Why use $100s?
Switch to $50s or $20s, or even better 500 Euro bills.

Re:Next story

[xaxa]

Dealers sell drugs to users using local currency, Senators pass a law to outlaw the $100 bill.

€500 notes withdrawn over organised crime fears

The Serious Organised Crime Agency (Soca), which coordinated the voluntary industry move, said there is ''no credible legitimate use'' for the note in Britain.

Presumably this just means the criminals will go to Ireland or some other Eurozone country, where there are legitimate uses for a €500 note. If you can smuggle that quantity of cash into the UK it won't be difficult to take it to France or Ireland -- there are no customs checks, just security (explosive/etc) checks if relevant to the means of transport (i.e. take the ferry, or your own plane/yacht).

(€500 = US$730)

Re:Next story

[ColdWetDog]

(€500 = US$730)

I think the Brits are right on this. Who wants a $730 note? Just doesn't add up....

Re:Next story

[hipp5]

Dealers sell drugs to users using local currency, Senators pass a law to outlaw the $100 bill.

In Canada they ditched the $1000 bill because it was pretty much used purely for criminal activities.

Re:Next story

[Anonymous Coward]

That is the exact reason the US no longer has a $500 bill. They stopped its circulation to make it more difficult to transport large sums of currency.

Re:Next story

[guruevi]

445.1050 British pounds sterling. Why carry such an odd amount around in Great Britain?

Re:Next story

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of bullshit perversive incentive is this. The agency that issues the money wants it to be harder to use than it could be. Fuck that.

Re:Next story

[xaxa]

(€500 = US$730)

I think the Brits are right on this. Who wants a $730 note? Just doesn't add up....

A $100 bill in 1960 was worth about what a €500 note is worth now, due to inflation.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

Re:Next story

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably $20 bills or smaller. There probably a lot more of those being used. Can't imagine junkies walking around with $100 bills.

Re:Next story

[Anonymous Coward]

Dealers sell drugs to users using local currency, Senators pass a law to outlaw the $100 bill.

At least a few people have already proposed that

Re:Next story

[Anonymous Coward]

The Canadian $1000 dollar bill was discontinued because it was often used for illegal activities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawn_Canadian_banknotes#.241.2C000_bill

Re:Next story

[Anonymous Coward]

The issue with this is that weed is to easy to grow and would be to hard to stop ppl from growing it in their own homes. Not that this matters there are far better drugs out there that are totally legal. But these drugs are only still legal cause the general public is far to dense to seek them out instead go after the more popular and watched drugs that have already been in the news a million times this is a case of ppl being to stupid to adapt to the changing times.

Oh great

[MaxBooger]

Yet another bitcoin story posted by samzenpus. I smell a rat.

This is an ad

[Jiro]

Again.

Remember when we had the "mistaken pot busts" Bitcoin story where the first five paragraphs were just about Bitcoin, and the pot bust was not only buried in the article but attributed to an IRC chat?

This one is slightly better in that it's not mainly about Bitcoin, but it's obvious that Slashdot is being pumped full of Bitcoin articles by Bitcoin promoters.

Re:This is an ad

[Jeremi]

it's obvious that Slashdot is being pumped full of Bitcoin articles by Bitcoin promoters.

Well, duh. Slashdot is also pumped full of Linux articles by Linux fans, pumped full of video game articles by video game fans, and pumped full of science articles by science fans. News for Nerds, remember? Nerds are interested in BitCoin, because it's an interesting bit of software.

Re:This is an ad

[somersault]

You think this is a promotion? I guess among drug users, but I don't think that's the majority of Slashdotters. Maybe I'm wrong about that of course. I just see this as an "oh great, the US government is going to crack down on bitcoin" story.

Re:This is an ad

[Anonymous Coward]

It's more than software, it's an interesting economic experiment let loose in the wild.

Re:This is an ad

[Darinbob]

Forget slashdot readers. It's the editors that keep letting this junk through. As long as one of them is a true believer we'll keep getting these advertisements.

Re:This is an ad

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a slashdot review of the book entitled "The Daemon"... Read that book
and it's sequel and you might have an idea how important this type of thing is, moron!

Re:This is an ad

[guyminuslife]

Or because early adopters of BitCoin have a financial interest in seeing it gain popularity.

Re:This is an ad

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a conceptually solution to the bitcoin spam problem: flood the bitcoin market with "new" bitcoins that use thousands of slightly different hash functions. Also: inbefore some idiot says "they'll just ban the new coins": duh -- just create a new exchange that bypasses the original bitcoin spammers.

(Hint: It's hard to stay at the top of thousands of pyramid schemes at once. Also, this will help drive the point home to the morons keeping the bitcoin spammers in business.)

Re:This is an ad

[Anonymous Coward]

Nerds are interested in BitCoin, because it's an interesting bit of software.

And their nerdiness over an application of technology prevents them from otherwise recognizing a new variation on an ancient ponzi scheme.

Re:This is an ad

[proverbialcow]

This one is slightly better in that it's not mainly about Bitcoin, but it's obvious that Slashdot is being pumped full of Bitcoin articles by Bitcoin promoters.

To the point where the story being linked to is from Al-Jazeera.

Re:This is an ad

[Anonymous Coward]

So the Android stories are ads, the Apple stories are ads, the Linux stories are ads, even the BSD dying stories are ads....

Oh, and the liberal bent are in violation of campaign laws or something too right?

You also think if you are on a date, the girl/boy sleeps with you, then whoever bought he dinner is the John and the other who got the freebie for the "freebie" is the prostitute?

Yes, it's about BitCoin. It's also an vaguely interesting take about our pompous stupid politicians and the mass dreck of our stupid population possibly now thinking hash to buy hash is something only Bitcoin can do. Quit making an issue of a valid story being invalid while overlooking the far worse implications of yours and others ignorance of the entire matter.

Interesting.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is interesting, now the "worthless" bitcoins actually have value, as people are will to trade valuable illegal drugs for it.

All money is after all an I.O.U.

Re:Interesting.

[Beelzebud]

What would be interesting is if you can find an actual example of someone willing to sell drugs for bit-coin. This story offers no examples at all.

Re:Interesting.

[Linsaran]

Here you go, granted it's a Tor hidden service, so you'll either have to use TOR or a tor2web proxy like this to read it, but you wanted an example.

Another Bitcoin crap story

[Lieutenant_Dan]

Last week it was about an imaginary bust of a Bitcoiner "miner" who may be using too much electricity, making law enforcement potentially believe that it was a grow-op.

Today is a story about virtual currency that is barely used anywhere to be used on online drug trading. Not Bitcoin specifically. Paypal most likely ...

Honestly. Having a video "story" is bad enough. Having the story linked to Bitcoin on a vague premise is pretty bad.

Let's create a Bitcoin /. filter, so I can exlude these stories from my profile. Not sure how this relates to "Privacy". I'm thinking that there is a group of Bitcoin proponents working hard to get any publicity.

Re:Another Bitcoin crap story

[somersault]

It relates to Privacy because one of the main "selling" points of Bitcoin is anonymity.

Re:Another Bitcoin crap story

[Lieutenant_Dan]

It relates to Privacy because one of the main "selling" points of Bitcoin is anonymity.

Yes, this has as much to do with Privacy as me taking off my license plates off my car so that I don't have to pay the tolls. Pardon the car analogy ...

They could have put on the Borg Gates icon on there since perhaps the Bitcoin software was running off a Windows computer?

Re:Another Bitcoin crap story

[calmofthestorm]

No, it's like taking off your license plates to avoid being tracked everywhere you go and having this stored indefinitely in insecure databases sold to private industry at every opportunity. Whether or not you pay the tolls being a separate issue, don't most toll booths have a cash lane? Likewise, you can report any additional income on your tax returns for income not taxed elsewhere.

Re:Another Bitcoin crap story

[Anonymous Coward]

The video mentions Bitcoin specifically.

I agree that it's just advertising. Like all the Second Life shit articles that were being posted not too long ago.

Re:Another Bitcoin crap story

[Nyph2]

Last week it was about an imaginary bust of a Bitcoiner "miner" who may be using too much electricity, making law enforcement potentially believe that it was a grow-op.

Today is a story about virtual currency that is barely used anywhere to be used on online drug trading. Not Bitcoin specifically. Paypal most likely ...

Honestly. Having a video "story" is bad enough. Having the story linked to Bitcoin on a vague premise is pretty bad.

Let's create a Bitcoin /. filter, so I can exlude these stories from my profile. Not sure how this relates to "Privacy". I'm thinking that there is a group of Bitcoin proponents working hard to get any publicity.

http://silkroadmarket.org/
There is indeed an illicit drug market run through tor, and bitcoin not pay-pal is its currency.
TFA may not refer to silkroad, but it does exist.

Re:Another Bitcoin crap story

[Anonymous Coward]

I would have gone with YRO since this is bitcoin being used to Thwart the unconstitutional war on drugs... online.

Privacy fits as well. I suspect bitcoin is used for offshore business to protect privacy since the IRS attempts to tax offshore business conducted by us citizens despite having no jurisdiction. The IRS has no jurisdiction, and its none of their business, cha-ching privacy.

Tolls are different, there is nothing in the constitution that protects you from tolls. There are things that make the way toll violations and "traffic court" procedures in general illegal but don't prevent tolls themselves.

Slashdot as arbitrage tool

[Anonymous Coward]

https://mtgox.com/trade/history (click "all time")

In two months, the value per Bitcoin has increased from .5 USD to 20 USD, a 40 fold increase. Slashdot is being flooded by bitcoin speculators to increase prices. People are paying $20 for something worth 50 cents for no good reason. The price will collapse to less than $1 in the near future. People are throwing money away.

Re:Slashdot as arbitrage tool

[SpiralSpirit]

I dunno. if you mine and sell them, and don't buy any, you're not losing anything. A pair half decent video cards working 24 hours a day will net you ~2 bitcoins a day.

Re:Slashdot as arbitrage tool

[PitaBred]

Why do you think it's worth $.50 at all? It's like you don't actually understand economics in the slightest...

Re:Slashdot as arbitrage tool

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously don't either. Something is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. Currently, people are willing to pay $20 for bitcoins, therefore bitcoins are currently worth $20. Period.

Re:Slashdot as arbitrage tool

[PitaBred]

That was my point. Thank you for making it for me. He said that bitcoins are worth $.50 and not $20, but that still says he thinks they're worth something for some reason. My point is that them being worth $20 is the exact same as them being worth $0.50. It's the market at work.

Re:Slashdot as arbitrage tool

[Anonymous Coward]

Not actually quite that simple. Bitcoin's value is not just in hype, that is, it is probably oversold atm but it is not inherently valueless. To see this, consider that price and difficulty have been quite strongly correlated for almost a year (perhaps more, haven't looked that far back) and the ratio price:difficulty is not actually that high historically speaking. What bitcoin mining is doing is processing transactions - which is a simplification but a useful one as it is not too far off from the truth. Banks make money doing the same thing in a centralized, bitcoin is a distributed economy hence the banking wealth is distributed as well.

Re:Slashdot as arbitrage tool

[Anonymous Coward]

It's people like you that drove 1-bedroom condos to $450,000. Are you Ben Stein?

Re:Slashdot as arbitrage tool

[Abstrackt]

I completely agree that speculators are driving the price up, though I just made $200 selling bitcoins I got when they were still being handed out 5 at a time so it's hard for me to complain.

Silly Senators

[TemperedAlchemist]

Probably don't know what deepnet is.

Re:Silly Senators

[Anonymous Coward]

It's what the DEA are going to catch these evil wrong-doers with.... ... right?

Nonsense.

[Beelzebud]

The only drug dealers accepting bit-coin for their drugs are the ones using their own product. I'm sorry to say, but bit-coin has ZERO value in what 99.99% of people refer to as the real world. It might make you a rich man in Second Life, but you aren't going to be buying a joint of Mexican schwag weed with this stuff outside of the internet.

Re:Nonsense.

[Anonymous Coward]

lol .. maybe they mean you can buy virtual drugs and the like with this virtual money ..

I think mitch hedberg say it the best

"If you have dentures, do not use artificial sweetener. You will get a fake cavity"

Re:Nonsense.

[Anonymous Coward]

The US Dollar only has value because the government says it has value. It's not backed by anything except the word of the government. For the last ~50 years the governments words has not meant much. Bitcoins are based off processor power and electrical usage. It is also impossible to inflate. That all by itself makes the bitcoin better than the US dollar. There are currently only a few markets for bitcoins but that won't be the case for long. As soon as enough people figure out that the government cannot tax transactions based in bitcoins, you will soon see a whole hord of bitcoin based markets.

I don't believe it...

[man_of_mr_e]

Bitcoin has no viable value. I dont understand why anyone, esecially drug dealers, would take bitcoin. Why not just draw on some paper with crayons and say it's money?

Bitcoin is not backed by any government, nor is it backed by anything of value. CPU cycles are not valuable after they are expended, and the work involved is not useful for anything else. So I really can't understand why anyone would give goods that ARE worth something in exchange for them.

Just because it takes a lot of effort to make them doesn't mean they're worth anything. Has anyone here *REALLY*, and I mean *REALLY* used bitcoin to trade anything valuable? Ever?

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Last week I bought your sister's anal virginity for four bitcoins, which she then promptly traded for heroin.

Re:I don't believe it...

[earls]

"as anyone here *REALLY*, and I mean *REALLY* used bitcoin to trade anything valuable? Ever?"

Yes. Drugs. *SNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORT* Ah.

Re:I don't believe it...

[chill]

There are bitcoin currency exchanges where you can trade for $US.

Money -- ALL money -- is only worth anything because people mutually agree it is. All of it is nothing more than a medium for exchange that is more convenient than barter.

Backed by government can mean zilch in a very short order if no one trusts that government any longer. See Wiemar Republic and Zimbabwe for example.

Re:I don't believe it...

[ErikZ]

How is the dollar backed by the US government?

Can you go to the US government and have your dollars exchanged for gold or land?

Re:I don't believe it...

[inviolet]

How is the dollar backed by the US government?

Can you go to the US government and have your dollars exchanged for gold or land?

Excellent reply. I was hoping somebody would point out the hilarious fallacy of "backed by a government".

Goes to show how effective the propaganda is: a dollar is, in reality, dysbacked by our government, in the sense that its value is continuously reduced by the fed via issuance of additional M3.

Re:I don't believe it...

[mlts]

Currencies need trust. For me to trust bitcoin for more than just novelty purposes, here is what I need:

1: 5-10 years from now, will my coins still have a value, or will "miners" make the currency worthless like Beens, Flooz, or many other "Internet currencies" that have come, left nasty farts, and gone.

2: I understand Bitcoin, but can you get Joe Sixpack who buys gold because Rush, Beck, and Palin say so to trust this currency? They wouldn't understand it, much less give it credence.

3: Is BitCoin use going up or declining? If it is declining, then there isn't going to be much interest in putting resources into the technology.

4: The technology is interesting, but when virtually coins are "mined", people likely wouldn't want to play in the market.

5: You have to convince the masses that the currency can be converted to gold, that "mining" coins isn't going to flood the economy with currency.

6: Backing. eGold is backed by metal. The US Dollar is backed by the US government. Who backs BitCoin? To the average person out there, some big name would need to step up to the plate, elsewise this becomes a novelty item.

7: What happens to the currency if someone makes a TWIRL machine, or heaven forbid, a quantum computer that can factor RSA in a lot shorter time? The whole currency and any assets bound to it are depending on the security of some cryptographic algorithms. If one of the algos used is broken, it would mean the whole ecosystem would be destroyed. Ideally, it should use redundant algorithms (chained encryption, etc.) to reduce this as a threat.

8: This is a pseudoanonymous currency, not anonymous. It can be claimed it is "neither fish nor foul", and having neither the benefits of anonymity, nor the ease of use of standard credit cards or PayPal. It might dupe people into thinking it is anonymous, and then later get nailed by the IRS for tax fraud, or even FinCEN may step into the picture.

BitCoin has promise, but at best it is a "transport currency" -- convert to BitCoins, make a purchase or sale, and the other side immediately converts them out. There is no real assurance of stability.

Re:I don't believe it...

[blueg3]

You can use the dollar to pay U.S. taxes or to pay any debt in the U.S.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have enough, you can go to the US government and have your dollars exchanged for favorable legislation. ;)

Re:I don't believe it...

[Linsaran]

Has anyone here *REALLY*, and I mean *REALLY* used bitcoin to trade anything valuable? Ever?"

I bought about $100 worth of used video games with it. I don't know if you'd consider that valuable, but I certainly enjoyed them. Frankly the only reason any fiat currency has value is because someone (usually a government) says it does. Frankly as long as people are willing to assign a value to bitcoins they have value. It's just like people who buy/sell WoW gold, as long as there's a market for it it has value.

Re:I don't believe it...

[blueg3]

Actually, the primary use of bitcoin is as an intermediary. You buy bitcoins for dollars, make a transaction, and the other party sells the bitcoins for dollars. You have to pay some fees, but these are comparable to the fees you'd pay for, say, using PayPal to transfer money. You also take on the risk that over the course of the transaction the value of a bitcoin (in dollars) changes, so you probably want to hold bitcoins for as short a time as possible. What you get in return is that the only traceable transactions are between each party and the bitcoin exchange; there's no traceable transaction between the two parties. That's the same benefit you get with cash, except that you can send bitcoins digitally and you can't send cash digitally.

And yes, people really use bitcoins to buy things: drugs.

Re:I don't believe it...

[m50d]

There are bitcoin currency exchanges where you can trade for $US.

Yes there are. And the value fluctuates by ~8%/day. You'd be safer keeping your fortune in Everquest "gold".

Re:I don't believe it...

[lwsimon]

1. Miners cannot make bitcoins worthless, as the difficulty of mining adjusts to the number of blocks created. ~21,000.000 BTC is the cap, period.

2. Joe Sixpack doesn't understand how dollars function either.

3. It's increasing. There are several eCommerce platforms being modified for its use, and I myself recently began accepting it for physical goods.

4. I don't understand this one. It doesn't appear to be a question.

5. The masses are stupid - that's why they thing dollars can be converted to gold.

6. In what way does the US government back dollars?

7. They would mine a shit-ton of BTC - but not more than ~21m - (amount in existence). If RSA is broken, the whole network would need to move to another hash algo. The algo with 50%+1 support would win in the case of a schism.

8. You can use Bitcount anonymously - but it isn't something a layperson can do. Note that the creators of Bitcount don't claim that it is completely anonymous, either.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing is diluting the dollar and another is backing it up.

By enforcing the legality of contracts in dollars, fighting counterfeit bills, etc. is how the government "backs" the dollar.

It's an illusion that all the money printed is backed by gold, land or what ever capital assets. What has happened is that governments use diluting their currency as a cheap financing tool. But they must tread a very fine line between generating growth or collapsing by uncontrollable inflation and lost of confidence.

I think the US has to get their act together before serious damage is done to the American economy (huge debts, recalling dollars, loss of purchase power). Lets not forget that just a few years ago americans had the highest purchase power in the world.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

It is backed in the sense that you can use it to pay your taxes or fees owed to the US Federal Goverment.

Re:I don't believe it...

[DarkOx]

It might have value among dealers as a secure exchange medium. Its somewhat to forge and it makes it possible to have a mutually trusted third party brokering the transaction without that party needing to understand why or know any of the illicit details.

Consider,

Dealer A: Has a contact he purchase Coke, and LSD from and he in turn sell these on the street or to other lower level deals. Some of his customers want Weed as well. Dealer A knows dealer B who sells lots of weed in his territory.

Dealer B: Has a contact that he can purchase Weed from or perhaps he grows it. He sells it on the street, and some of his customers would also like LSD, he knows Dealer A, who sells this. Sometimes they trade with each other but only when they each of extra product the other wants.

Suppose each of these dealers also know other dealers they can potentially swap product with. Now if Dealer B wants LSD but does not have extra weed, he could perhaps get it on credit with an IOU, from Dealer A. Dealer A however can't do anything Dealer B's IOU, if he had a currency of some time he might be able to make an exchange with Dealer C. Additionally drug dealers may not be the best book keeps or the most honest individuals on the planet. Next week when Dealer B tells Dealer A, "no no I gave you that stuff already" now they have dispute. If they had a secure exchange medium Dealer A would already have Dealer B's Bitcoins and there would be no problem. B is going to have to pony up the drugs to get the Bitcoins back so he can trade again or Dealer A can perhaps say screw you Dealer B and go trade the Bitcoins with Dealer C. A and B might hate each other but things need not escalate to the gang beating level.

No sure this would all work with good old fashion paper dollars, but there is an inherit risk in keeping large quantities of cash or other easily negotiable items lying around. Its not like you typical drug dealer can go to police and a report a theft without exposing himself, nor are thefts of cash usually recovered. Walking into the bank and depositing and withdrawing large quantities of cash, more than they already do would also attract unwanted attention from the wrong people.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily, but you need to use them to pay your taxes. This is how the US creates demand for US dollars in the absence of convertability.

Re:I don't believe it...

[mmcuh]

But it you're doing something shady and you don't want to be tracked, or you just don't want to be tracked anyway, that ~8% a day risk may be worth it. You can move your bitcoin payments around for a couple of days before you sell them for dollars to make them harder to trace - in the worst case you lose the last few days' income if the exchange goes down.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Also backing currency in gold and land totally ignores the wealth generated by services. If I go out and work 10 hours a day instead of the normal 8 I generate more value to the economy. But the total amount of gold and land doesn't increase. Why should my work subsidize land owners and people with investments in gold?

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

The government demands tax in $. This is enforced through violence. That is the big difference. There is no great organization creating a constant demand like that in the bitcoin world.

Re:I don't believe it...

[nschubach]

Not really. If I have a $50 bill, there are several places I can think of that can refuse to sell you items as long as they post a sign. So there is no requirement for any proprietor to accept USD.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

See, you got robbed - I bought it the previous week for 8.

Re:I don't believe it...

[blueg3]

A purchase and a debt are not the same thing. A person is not required to accept U.S. currency in exchange for goods or services. However, creditors must accept U.S. currency to pay off debts.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because it takes a lot of effort to make them doesn't mean they're worth anything. Has anyone here *REALLY*, and I mean *REALLY* used bitcoin to trade anything valuable? Ever?

Too lazy to type a few characters into google and educate yourself, so you appeal to us for the info you seek?

Fine, so be it. The answer to your query is yes.

Re:I don't believe it...

[TheCarp]

Keep saying that. They were trading at 20 cents in december and hit $18 recently. Thir value is in two things: They are easy to transfer, and other people take them.

Once you get your coins, aside from any time transferring them around, you can trade them for $$ on mtgox and have the $$ transfered into your bank account, within a coupel of days. Up to $1000 per day for a 25 cent fee.

So um... how are they not worth anything. Even if the price drops, tomorrow, I can have already transfered them to $$ and have those $$ on their way to my account. Oh... and yes it works, I have personally sold $1000 in bitcoins and gotten the money into my account.

So basically... if you don't trust them, just take them now and immediately sell them. If you do trust them... then horde them because in my opinion evebn at $18 they are undervalued.

Re:I don't believe it...

[man_of_mr_e]

You see on the dollar where it says "Legal Tender", "Legal" means that the law makes it so, and thus backed by the government.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

It is backed by the ability of the US government to TAX its citizens, payable only in U.S. currency.
Therefore, there will always be a built-in DEMAND for U.S. currency that has value by its ability to pay your taxes in that currency and that currency alone.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

1: 5-10 years from now, will my coins still have a value, or will "miners" make the currency worthless

2: I understand Bitcoin

These two statements are mutually exclusive.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

They are valuable because:

A) they are easy to trade, anonymously, quickly and without a third party being able to seize your funds
B) they are easy to save and hide. If you had to forfeit your wealth because you were sued, the one source of funds that could never be discovered and taken away from you is bitcoin.
C) they will never suffer from inflation.

These are new features in a currency that has never been available before and give the entire 21 million set of bitcoins value. If you compare it to a company such as facebook, the service that facebook provides is what gives it value. Same thing here.

Re:I don't believe it...

[mlts]

The question is not if I know the coins are fine. Unless there is a break in the cryptosystems used, then I have faith in it.

However, it is getting others to do the same thing that means a chunk of currency. Will other people freak out about "miners" and think it is the same thing as Zimbabwe running their printing press? Those are battles this currency will have to overcome.

The system from my perspective looks secure -- it is a well designed currency ecosystem. However what will kill it won't be the technical aspect. It will be if it provides useful functionality good enough for people to bother using it. Not just geeks, but Joe Sixpack who is worried about the stash of gold under his bed and barely trusts the American dollar.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Omnifarious]

The dollar has no viable value, except in our collective imaginations. Even the fact that the US government demands taxes paid in it giving it value is an artifact of our collective imagination. For example, if the US government started demanding payment in sycamore leaves, I doubt it would really cause people to start a brisk trade in sycamore leaves. People would just trade in them the minimal amount necessary to pay taxes.

People have used a whole ton of odd things for curency. Stone coins on the Yap Islands. Tally sticks. Knots in rope. Cowry shells. Some of these things have worked more or less well than others for various reasons. Bitcoin is an attempt to create a completely digital system that has attributes that make it an excellent means of exchanging value using tokens of a sort that are otherwise meaningless.

Every merchant that willingly accepts bitcoins for payment adds to how valuable bitcoins are. It will start with niches that are currently ill-served by US currency. Gambling, illegal drugs, prostitution and other consensual crime are big ones here. And it will slowly spill over into other things.

Do some research on what people have used as currency in the past, and why those things have or haven't worked so well. If you can wrap your mind around the idea that a sea shell was, at one point, a very important carrier of value, then you might be in a position to evaluate whether or not bitcoin has a chance.

As for commenting that it has no value, I disagree with you completely. Currently my store of bitcoins has a value of over a thousand dollars. And that's because I could, should I so chose, go and trade them all for those USD. Those USD are valuable because I can trade them for all kinds of random stuff, and pay taxes in them.

Tomorrow, their value may be 50 USD or even less. But I don't think that's likely because there are so many other things you can trade bitcoins for that I think people will want them and trade their USD for them at something close to the current market rates.

Re:I don't believe it...

[PRMan]

No. But when the dollar goes down compared to foreign currency because we have to print billions in currency to "bail out" banks that are poor because they're stashing all their money in Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Monaco and the Cayman Islands, the rest of the world goes, "Good! America's back!" and invests even more, causing the dollar to go up against foreign currency.

Got it?

Re:I don't believe it...

[man_of_mr_e]

You contradict yourself. First you say it has no viable value, then you say "people would just trade in them the minimal amount necessary to pay taxes". But that's just it, they would HAVE to trade in them to pay their taxes. And since taxes are based on US Dollar value of things, by definition everything has to have a US Dollar equivelent.

Re:I don't believe it...

[xclr8r]

8% exchange rate would be great for convenience stores compared to the price they have to pay each and every transaction on VISA cards. There's a donut store I go to that will not do transactions with a credit card unless it breaks the 8 dollar mark.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Omnifarious]

Yes, it is a contradiction. But I think a value based on the fact that some people will take your stuff and rob you of your freedom if you don't give them some of those things is a pretty poor shadow of a value based on what people are voluntarily willing to trade you for them. I think the majority of the value USD has is because of what people are voluntarily willing to trade for them. And I think that value is based completely on the collective imagination.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

In order to make debt, you first have to purchase something.

Re:I don't believe it...

[TheSync]

For example, if the US government started demanding payment in sycamore leaves, I doubt it would really cause people to start a brisk trade in sycamore leaves.

Oh yeah? What do you think will happen when people need 4 trillion sycamore leaves to pay to the government, or go to jail? I predict a very brisk trade indeed, huge sycamore groves genetically engineered to quickly grow and produce leaves, harvested by an army of workers. It would have to be a global operation!

Re:I don't believe it...

[TheSync]

How is the dollar backed by the US government?

The US government will put you in jail if you don't pay your taxes in dollars.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

They have to accept the $50 bill if you owe them money and try to pay the debt off. they don't have to accept it for a new transaction.

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Once again uninformed. It's backed by the government because you use it (and only it, mind you) to not go to jail for failing to pay your taxes (Local, State, and Federal). Taxes always bootstraps every fiat currency.

Re:I don't believe it...

[ka9dgx]

NO, you can't... the IRS does not accept cash!

Re:I don't believe it...

[Anonymous Coward]

The USD is backed by the US government in the sense that it is accepted in the payment of taxes. It is redeemable for government services.

Modern Monetary Theory has a pretty good explanation of modern money. I recommend checking it out, as you clearly don't understand what money is.

Nothing to see here

[Linsaran]

Surprise! People are using money for something illegal, that's never been done with any other form of currency before. The only thing even remotely notable about using bitcoin instead of say a prepaid visa card, is it's a harder to trace down the source/destination of the funds.

Re:Nothing to see here

[scorp1us]

I suggest we outlaw cash too. Bitcoin is at least traceable, cash is not. Clearly, we should outlaw cash first.

Re:Nothing to see here

[zill]

The other day I saw two gentlemen exchanging stolen merchandise for narcotics. Why hasn't goods and merchandise been banned yet?

Re:Nothing to see here

[Zaphod The 42nd]

Clearly we need to ban bartering. And the euro. And gold. And... hm. This is going to take awhile...

I hear drug dealers also take cash

[Anonymous Coward]

Something should be done about this difficult-to-trace currency. I hear the federal government is producing more all the time, and they've made it illegal for others to do so. There's definitely a conspiracy going on here...

news flash

[Eponymous Hero]

if you really want a harder drug, there is very little keeping you from getting it, and it's been that way for thousands of years. forget drugs, look what happens when you give millions of people unrestricted access to slashdot. basically if your group has more than 5 people your fate is to enjoy watching at least one of them misbehave, no matter what the circumstance.

I'm not an expert, but...

[jonescb]

I'm pretty sure Marijuana isn't a narcotic. And I don't think cocaine is either.
A narcotic would be like morphine or heroin.

Narcotics are specific, not a generalization for all drugs.
If you're going to post Slashvertisements, at least get some of your facts straight.

Re:I'm not an expert, but...

[ColdWetDog]

While you're technically quite correct, the term has been commandeered to mean pretty much any 'bad' drug (alcohol and tobacco are never considered 'narcotics'). The DEA is quite happy to conflate the meaning since it sounds Evil, Nasty and something that every right thinking folk would avoid.

It's just the typical Orwellian mindset that the US Government excels at. Drug Enforcement Agency (how do you 'enforce' a drug), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (sounds like a store name), Department of Homeland Security (ummm, right). Ministry of Peace.

Re:I'm not an expert, but...

[blueg3]

There's actually multiple definitions:
Medically, a narcotic is a drug that induces sleep.
Chemically, "narcotic" usually now refers to opioids (this is the definition you had in mind).
Legally, "narcotic" refers to classes of drugs that are prohibited or strictly controlled, regardless of whether they meet one of the above definitions (this is the sense the article uses).

Re:I'm not an expert, but...

[compro01]

Let the US government, UN, etc. know that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs

There are many other uses for bitcoins

[Anonymous Coward]

While the authorities always are concerned, there are many other uses of bitcoins: For example it can be used in games: http://bit.ly/ihSQtH

Bitcoin is subject to inflation, sort of.

[davidwr]

If the US Dollar is getting stronger against the Euro and the BitCoin and the BitCoin is getting stronger against the Euro, then for people who live their lives on the Dollar, the BitCoin appears to be subject to inflation but not as much as the Euro. For those who live their lives on the Euro, BitCoin appears to be subject to deflation but not as much as the US Dollar.

To those who live their lives on the BitCoin, the US Dollar appears to be deflating and the Euro inflating.

Substitute one set of commodities whose prices are rising for "Euro" and another set of commodities whose prices are falling for "American Dollars" and you can see inflation and deflation at work at the same time in the same currency. We see this all the time with the Dollar, where consumer inflation and producer inflation are rarely exactly the same. If both are close to zero in a given month, one may show inflation and one may show deflation.

this is hilarious

[poetmatt]

alternative currencies find themselves doing illegal stuff?

what do you suppose real currencies do? the exact same thing.

This just in: it's actually harder to track with USD than it is via bitcoins.

Re:this is hilarious

[nschubach]

It gives bitcoin a valid use. It prevents the banking/government industry from being able to control your money.

I'm actually not surprised that governments are attacking something which could take that power away from them. There's no tax on bitcoin and as far as I am aware it would make it harder to collect. It would be like more transaction were done "under the table" where today you have to go through credit agencies and banks.

Re:this is hilarious

[Hognoxious]

There's no tax on bitcoin

A meaningless statement. Taxes are levied on transactions, not currencies. The medium of exchange and unit of account are irrelevant. Even payments in kind and barter are (theoretically) taxable.

Percentages

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to think that the percentage of illegal drug transactions using BitCoin vs. "real" money is probably very, very small.

Seems like a back-door, "excuse" for government to attempt to regulate or snuff out this alternative currency system.

Re:so illegal businesses are using illegal currenc

[Anonymous Coward]

Bitcoin isn't illegal.

US Dollar bills are Used For the Narcotics Trade

[Anonymous Coward]

nothing more to say.

Dark Web == Deep Web

[cultiv8]

From Wikipedia:

Mike Bergman, credited with coining the phrase,[1] has said that searching on the Internet today can be compared to dragging a net across the surface of the ocean: a great deal may be caught in the net, but there is a wealth of information that is deep and therefore missed. Most of the Web's information is buried far down on dynamically generated sites, and standard search engines do not find it. Traditional search engines cannot "see" or retrieve content in the deep Web – those pages do not exist until they are created dynamically as the result of a specific search.

When the US senators talk about the "Dark Web", it either reflects their prowess for all things technical or their desire to get rid of the anonymous internet.

BTW, here's a better article on bitcoins being used in the "Dark Web".

It's not just Bitcoin

[hawguy]

Is this really a surprise? Everything with some intrinsic value is used for the drug trade. Dollars, Euro, Yen, Gold, Weapons, iPods, Other drugs, etc. People even barter services for drugs (i.e. I'll fix your car if you give me pot).

Since drugs are a physical product that has to change hands eventually, the drug trade would continue to thrive even without some virtual electronic currency.

And?

[Anonymous Coward]

So what? Let's think about this logically. Drugs are a constant, They've been around since we first discovered that smoking the buds of the Cannabis Sativa plant altered your mind. No amount of government intervention will curb the sale of drugs. The government should be embracing the fact that sales are being done online now. The governments job is to protect the people from external threats. It is NOT the governments job to protect the people from themselves. Not that the governemtn thinks that. The government (Congress, lobbyists, etc) do what is best for them monetarily under the name of the people. Quit worrying about drugs and focus on something else. For example, I don't know if you heard but we are in 3 or 4 wars in the Middle East the last time I checked. Its probably more now.

Like Freenet

[Kamiza Ikioi]

FTA: "The two senators have written to the US Justice Department and Drug Enforcement Administration asking them to shut down and investigate the site."

Crypto-anarchists have been working on the e-currency issues for years. They strive to make it more like Freenet, and everyone is well aware that Freenet is as seedy as it gets (I refuse to run it). Just like Napster, shutting it down could work against their goals by pushing for more decentralized solutions. Nobody will ever shut down Freenet.

We should all consider this as a knee jerk reaction as well. Many of us remember "trading" boards, BBSs, and chat rooms. Images, stories, music (midi) and software. And not much of that was legal. 20 years later, and you have iTunes. Just as pornography has pushed technology, so has illicit activities.

Take advantage, and you can reap the benefits and make it legitimate. Strike out at it, and you will only drive it further underground.

Re:Like Freenet

[Anonymous Coward]

Bitcoin is also a P2P system. It's not centralized. That was the point. There's no central broker. No place to be attacked and shutdown. They might be able to go after individual markets but as soon as one is shutdown ten more will take its place.

Modded "troll" by...

[Anonymous Coward]

...offended drug dealer, offended Bitcoin enthusiast, or offended Bitcoin enthusiast drug dealer?

Bitcoin is dangerous

[CeasedCaring]

Says the Senator for Paypal.

forums

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah the drug dealers were kicked off the official forums pretty quick. The TOR only black market site popped up immediately after I believe. I wonder if it's actually being used enough that that is what made bitcoins so valuable suddenly. That having been said, cash is used for drug transactions all the time, this is basically the same thing.

Don't fall for this ploy

[Anonymous Coward]

The government doesn't want BitCoin to take off but they can't legally do anything about it -- unless drugs are associated with it. Then it can be banned.
Hollywood, take note: If you can prove that people are paying for drugs with pirated movies, then the government will be able to stop file sharing.
(Yes I'm joking -- but only a little)

fuu

[Anonymous Coward]

these are some pretty stupid dealers and buyers considering the fact that every bitcoin transaction is publicly available. Since all the transactions are public, it shouldnt be too hard for them to connect the dots, right?

this is going to be the US Governments excuse to shut down the bitcoin network.....just like 9/11 is an excuse for the TSA to touch your genitals..the only real difference is that bitcoin poses absolutely no real threat

First step to outlaw it

[silviuc]

Oh boy, here it comes. Next it will be traced to child porn offenders and to terrorism. Finally they ban it - it must be important then...

The most dangerous place in the world...

[Just Another Poster]

...is between Charles Schumer and a television camera.

Dollars

[Zaphod The 42nd]

This just in!!! American US Dollars are being used to pay for drugs! Dollars are dangerous and must be outlawed.

Physical loop is identical

[forgottenusername]

Since cash is (relatively) anonymous, and bitcoins are anonymous, I don't see the difference.

At the end of the day, DEA and other agencies can and will infiltrate this new marketplace, so when you place an order for 1lb of pot, you're gonna get busted.

This concept of anonymity can work for digital information and media, but anything that shows up in a parcel is a huge risk.

These shady sites are nothing new. I may or may not have used them myself, and they may or may not have had ways to obfuscate your purchase. I get confused a lot, so it probably never happened.

money is money

[nazsco]

why is this shocking? bitcoin is currency. You can buy stuff with currency.

Like there was noone buying dope on the internet with creditcards

OMG!!11 credit cards are being used to buy drugs online!!!11 let's burn them!!!1

Not a failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Drug prohibition has done more to expand the business of government, in terms of both revenue and power over the people, than anything short of war (military war). The bigger the government, the more lucrative the business of government is for the elite at the top of the pyramid, who can exploit these absurd levels of power and revenue for personal gain.

You're not in the business of government, are you?

Re:so illegal businesses are using illegal currenc

[allo]

yet

Story is not legit

[Lawrence_Bird]

http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/01/buy-illegal-drugs-anonymously note the update at the end from bitcoin

re-examine your assumptions...

[Thud457]

So you traded a specific arrangement of bits for a different arrangement of bits? Did you at least make sure you didn't get cheated and got the same number of bits?

sounds like pobble beads and Ningis to me...

Like US currency isn't already used to buy drugs?

[chiph]

A survey found that almost 90% of US currency had cocaine residue on it. So not only is it being used to buy drugs, it's being used to use drugs.

doesent this make this currency offical

[luther349]

i guess when your local drug dealer accept bitcoin it makes it just as valid as usd.

Solution: make other bits

[Anonymous Coward]

Bitcoin is a digital currency. The name also refers both to the open source software designed to make use of the currency and to the peer-to-peer network formed by running that software.

Bitmarijuana is a digital drug. The name also refers both to the open source software designed to produce the drug and to the peer-to-peer network formed by running that software.

Bitcocaine is a digital drug. The name also refers both to the open source software designed to produce the drug and to the peer-to-peer network formed by running that software.

why?!?!?

[GReaToaK_2000]

Why is this a surprise? Just reading about aspects of bitcoin make it obvious to anyone with a brain what illicit uses it has.

Ideally, it's a good idea but seriously... Who didn't see this coming?

How About Calling For the Shutdown Of Drug Spam?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why aren't those senators calling for the capture and imprisonment of those behind the fukzillion V14g4ra and C14lis botnet spams that I get every 7 minutes? Grandstand much?

Bitcoin Used For Slashdot Spamming

[Tharsman]

Ironically, by hard to trace Anonymous Readers.

Bitcoin

[Anonymous Coward]

It is more about bitcoin than the drugs. A website is easy to stop, Torrent streams with numbers are unstoppable.
War on drugs is an excuse for many things. They want to stop the successor of bitcoin.

Honestly, bitcoin is an early adopter scam and will not work for the masses. It is ironic how uneasy wealthy duchess bags becomes, when someone reinvents their own game of issuing money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjH9cEoEup8

Silk Road isn't shut down.

[Roduku]

They have, however, changed to an invite only system. Apparently, DEA and nosy news reporters aren't invited.

So

[Anonymous Coward]

Real money isn't.

Wired ran that story last week

[Swave An deBwoner]

This is sort of "old news"; Wired ran the story last week in Threat Level, about bitcoin and the "silk road" drug marketplace:

Underground Website Lets You Buy Any Drug Imaginable
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/06/silkroad/

Ah yes, the old; "arbitrary enforcement"

[Vitriol Angst]

I think we've all seen this before.... ... regulate the webs -- protect the children! ... don't buy this -- it helps terrorist (as he drives off in SUV from GE). ... but it will be used for the drug trade!

You know what ELSE is used for the drug trade? US Banks. http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2011/04/wachovia-accused-of-laundering-drug.html

No one actually got sent to prison with $450 Billion in transactions "unaccounted for." So, I'm guessing that something this large is part of the infrastructure. There wasn't some "dip" in drug laundering after Wachovia was caught was there? So maybe some hands got slapped, a corporate merger was made, and the next, better "connected" banker fills in the gap, making sure that the right politicians get donations next time.

But, BitCoin is EVIL! Because it doesn't use the banks,... because to do otherwise would, I don't know, level trade and keep us from economic imbalances?

To me, most of the Drug Enforcement and Judicial activities more and more look like the "real players" keeping down the "start ups" and we are supposed to usher in new and powerful laws so that THEY can keep down on the Competition. If we actually wanted to STOP drugs, maybe we'd revisit what the BCCI was doing with Dubai Banks, and the CIA -- or maybe we'd pay attention to articles that show that Blackwater Mercenaries were caught red-handed trading drugs with the Taliban by US forces -- you know, same, old, same old.

my brother died that way too

[Pseudonym Authority]

He was invited by the "cool kids" to hang out at some kids house whose liberal parents had left for the weekend.

My brother, always a moral and thoughtful individual, wanted to attend because it was one of those massive house parties that he'd never been to.

Well, as was later recalled by some of his friends at the party, he was pressured into smoking marijuana. He ended up smoking the entire pack of marijuana cigarettes.

Not long after he went into convulsions and started foaming at the mouth. The people at the party held back calling 9/11 for almost 10 minutes.

When the paramedics finally arrived they could do nothing to save him.

The autopsy revealed he had 3 times the lethal dosage of THC in his blood.

But I'm sure everyone here will deny my story and the fact that my brother died after smoking that illegal narcotic.

Re:my brother died that way too

[n1ywb]

Bullshit. I don't know what he smoked, and I'm awfully sorry for your loss, assuming you aren't a troll, which you probably are. But nevertheless it serves as a good opportunity to remind everybody that overdosing on THC via smoking is basically impossible.

"One estimate of THC's LD50 for humans indicates that about 1,500 pounds (680 kg) of cannabis would have to be smoked within 14 minutes." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol#Toxicity

That must have been one hell of a "pack of marijuana cigarettes"!

Re:my brother died that way too

[Anonymous Coward]

the lethal dose of marijuana is roughly a WHOLE FIELD OF POT.

I call BS.

http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/library/mj_overdose.htm

becoz drug itself is the currency

[Anonymous Coward]

in human blood....
the world is drug-ged

Gawker Article

[pgn674]

Gawker has an article on one of the underground sites called Silk Road, and includes the domain: The Underground Website Where You Can Buy Any Drug Imaginable - Gawker. The domain is for TOR, but I don't know if the server will respond to HTTP requests from outside TOR.

Federal Reserve Notes ARE Baseball Cards.

[Anonymous Coward]

People don't realize that it's been since 1931 that Federal Reserve Notes ceased from being Warehouse Receipts of labor & silver & gold and into becoming Baseball Cards.

Seriously, Federal Reserve Notes even when lawful suddenly turned into Work Permits and Property Permits when the Trading With The Enemy Act was passed.

Learn2History.

US Government suppresses United States Notes in favor of FRN's, the difference being FRN's are created at 6% of a dollar to a private corporation while USN's are created 2-cents per bill regardless of Bill and actually has legal clauses for property drawn on account.

A free country trades property of equal value and whatever isn't equal then currency or "stuffing" is used to offset the trade for balancing the equity of it, and that was originally done by more appreciable things of value like coins or metal grain, but now Governments flood currency into the market at a rate in which none can actually trade anymore because everyone is 1k years behind in satsifying the shelf-stock for property to buy.

Paper is about Labor competing to Resource.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are two competing Government currencies in The United States of America, and they are US Notes and Federal Reserve Notes; their difference is USN's are printed at 2-cents each regardless of value and every Federal bank by law must have 2k of them on hand and they are non-interest bearing, meanwhile Federal Reserve Notes are printed at 6% of FACE VALUE and must be payed-back to the private corporated that printed them (thus a $100 FRN must be payed-back to the Federal Reserve System at $106 but you must use FRN's to do it which is insane because only $100 exist).

Treat both currencies as Work Permits or Property Permit, because if you didn't use Government currency then your property rights are not recognized as protected by Government and otherwise you are within perview as an Enemy Combatant under the Trading With The Enemy Act that distinguishes between Buy/Sell in domestic debt to trading actual non-regulated substance that may or may not be monetised to a taxable rate. When there is time for people to work, money can be printed by Government and the Standard of Living can be fluctuated to the rate of taxation to force the people to work for whomever the Government induces them toward: this is slavery.

Two different drugs

[evolvearth]

You can't take heroin during a work break, mainly because you wouldn't be able to return. Smoking relieves stress for various circumstances, while also stimulating you, so it not only provides temporarily relief, it also provides motivation to do a specific task.

Re:Two different drugs

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were smoking for the first time you DEFINITELY WOULD NOT make it back to your desk after your first smoke. You'd throw up for hours and hours. spoken like someone who's product of american drug ignorance.

Tor and bitcoin

[rickzor]

From what I've read (and seen) the tor network is a much more valuable resource to these underground trades. There are numerous platforms for pseudo-anonymous online payment other than bitcoin used for these black market trades, many of them used in combination with Tor and '.onion' websites. By itself bitcoin is not much different from paper money, which is also used for anonymous payment in the real-world drug trade. Just like on our physical planet illegal trade is very hard without a safe venue, regardless of trade item or currency.

Time 2 embarass the troll Pseudonym Authority

[Anonymous Coward]

By letting you embarass yourself, starting here:

http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1881444&cid=34343366

(where you blew it hugely on a simple concept in computing)

Then, after you trolled that ac later, here, where he exposed you for your outright fuckup above:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2198230&cid=36293398

and then here even more where your "high IQ" you stated you have, certainly didn't show itself after your "foaming @ the mouth raging replies" troll:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2198230&cid=36334446

and

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2198230&cid=36350694

AND LASTLY where you show you're a WASTE of education time in academia (and somebody's money) MORESO STILL, here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2198230&cid=36358880

and here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2198230&cid=36359382

You're a laughable joke, and undoubtedly a liar as well about your actually having done any academia after highschool period.

I am going to have a field day with you, troll. Embarassing a loudmouthed, profane, lying, & trolling scumbag likes of you? Well worth doing.

Re:Time 2 embarass the troll Pseudonym Authority

[Pseudonym Authority]

Now this is the story all about how
My life got flipped, turned upside down
And I'd like to take a minute just sit right there
I'll tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel-air

In west Philadelphia born and raised
On the playground where I spent most of my days
Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool
And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school
When a couple of guys, they were up to no good
Started making trouble in my neighbourhood
I got in one little fight and my mom got scared
And said "You're moving with your auntie and uncle in Bel-air"

I whistled for a cab and when it came near the
License plate said "fresh" and had a dice in the mirror
If anything I could say that this cab was rare
But I thought nah, forget it, yo homes to Bel-air!

I pulled up to a house about seven or eight
And I yelled to the cabby "Yo, homes smell you later!"
Looked at my kingdom I was finally there
To sit on my throne as
The Prince of Bel-air

hi

[fastformation]

You like this http://tinyurl.com/4yn3fuq

A New Bitcoin

[Anonymous Coward]

The current idea of a fixed number of bitcoins is non-sustainable in my opinion. Maybe it'll be the deflation problems, maybe latecomers refusing the unfair advantage towards early adopters and starting their own bitcoin.

However, the idea is too good to write off because of the current implementation, which I think has some more serious issues. Interested? Please have a look at:

http://www.newbitcoin.org/documents/newbitcoin.pdf

and help me develop a new, sound protocol.

gov fail (again)

[luk3Z]

Fu*k corporations and their marionettes in government. We are not your slaves. Your dollar today is a paper with printed numbers only. Future belong to the really free people with open minds not to your almost free slaves.

Where do you get your information Pseudo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Afaik, you cannot "od" on weed, from documentaries I've seen on the subject, and you cannot get "packs of marijuana cigarettes" either. I read your post history, and you're obviously a troll (and a stupid one at that based on the other replies here). You are full of it.

Pseudonym Authority's "GREATEST HITS" (not)

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you mentally stable? The reason I ask him this, is simple (see these 2 posts of Pseudonym Authorities' folks, and then decide for yourselves):

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2198230&cid=36370168

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2206226&cid=36370194

WTF! Are you sick in the head, or what??

We know you suck at computing already, based on your screwup on a simple principle in it here:

http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1881444&cid=34343366

But we had NO idea you needed mental help too!

Re:Pseudonym Authority's "GREATEST HITS" (not)

[Pseudonym Authority]

Alright /., I am looking to build a computer. Here is the resources at my disposal:

1. 1000 Popsicle sticks
2. 15 Hot glue sticks
3. 1 Hot glue gun

What is the optimal arrangement of my sticks that will function as a computer. I realize that 1000 sticks isn't a whole lot, but I really only browse slashdot, google.on.nimp.org, and not4chan, so it doesn't have to be all that fast.
Pic related, it's my sticks.

That's about your "speed" after your fine showing

[Anonymous Coward]

Here -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1881444&cid=34343366 , as regards your "l33t SkiLLz" (lol, not).

APK

P.S.=> However - After your other last couple of "posts" here, I must ask you:

Are you mentally stable?

The reason I ask him that, is these 2 posts of Pseudonym Authorities' people:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2198230&cid=36370168

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2206226&cid=36370194

You have DEFINITE issues, man... apk

Re:That's about your "speed" after your fine showi

[Pseudonym Authority]

dogs as far as the eye can see. a delicately intertwined network of dogs stretches out to the horizon, bathed in spring light... sunrise on Infinite Dogworld

the planet's surface is clothed in a flowing sheet of spaniels. dog-shadows blot out the land. maybe the dogs are the land. it's been millenia since any human has set foot on Infinite Dogworld.

it's a calm, clear day. the sun lends a honeyed hue to the coats of golden retrievers. a few clouds drift aimlessly through the sky's blue expanse - but wait! those are no clouds! bubbly puffs of fuzz and fur, canine cumulonimbus; levitating dogs waft through the heavens like hairy helicopters, wagging their tails to propel themselves. anything is possible on Infinite Dogworld.

how many dogs are there? no one knows. the dogs move as a single entity, the world's cutest bacterial colony. at some points they seem to blend into each other and blur together to create a semi-corporeal dogblob with legs and tails jutting out haphazardly. amorphous splotches of fur and dog-flesh, they are almost unidentifiable but still retain some characteristics of doggishness. this furry ameoba trudges doggedly on, tongues whipped by the breeze, across the sweeping plains of Infinite Dogworld.

there are no gaps in the dog chain. what happens when a dog dies? is a puppy born to take its place? perhaps there is no death on Infinite Dogworld. all dogs live forever. all dogs go to heaven.

factoids from the ministry of truth

[cas2000]

only drug traffickers use bitcoin.

only criminals care about privacy.

only paedophiles use encryption.

only terrorists use p2p.

$500 and up denominations

[KingAlanI]

Also with the $500 and up denominations (there were also $1000, $5000 and $10000) - a lot of demand for them was for large interbank transactions (sometimes involving Federal Reserve Banks). Technological developments meant you didn't necessarily need physical currency for that anymore.

There were also $100000's that were only for the Fed.

All new Exchange Site - way better than MtGox

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out this new BitCoin exchange website - https://bitcoin7.com/ - it just opened up and the rates are like two times smaller than MtGoxs'! At the moment they are even paying you when you make an exchange as part of some promotion!