Slashdot Mirror
Checkpoint of the Future Coming Soon To Airports
cultiv8 writes with this excerpt from an AP story as carried by Yahoo: "Eye scanners and futuristic security tunnels may be standard in airports soon as the airline industry seeks to maintain safety while reducing the hassles of boarding a plane that deter some people from flying. The International Air Transport Association unveiled a mock-up Tuesday in Singapore of what it dubbed the 'Checkpoint of the Future,' where passengers separated by security risk would walk through one of three high-tech, 20-foot-long (6.1-meters-long) tunnels that can quickly scan shoes and carry-on luggage and check for liquids and explosives. ... In the IATA prototype, passengers would be categorized based on the results of a government risk assessment that is put into a chip in a passenger's passport or other identification. An eye scan would then match the passenger to the passport."
They got the idea from total recall then?
What's the cancer risk then? How much radiation do we need to absorb in the name of safety? Will people be restricted from flying too often to keep them safe from our invasive scans?
I'm one of the lucky ones: I don't have a job-related need to take an airplane, so I haven't flown for the last few years.
Seriously: the TSA has proven time and again that they can't be trusted with wiping their own ass, much less handling security, privacy, or customer relations.
I feel bad for the airlines, and I miss going places I can't drive, but I cannot stomach their security theatre, invasiveness, or sexual assaults.
Wealthy enough to own/charter your own plane.
i can see why the nerds might be upset.
Willing participants in a travel system that could just drive if they weren't so full of themselves that they thought they had to be somewhere in 90 minutes instead of 10 hours.
It's like a scene out of a movie or something!
"The International Air Transport Association unveiled a mock-up Tuesday in Singapore "
Do you hate the entire world?
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
New Hampshire was one of the first states to reject "Real-ID", and to hell with the (then-threatened) restrictions on air travel. I was one of the people that campaigned actively for this; one of my friends was a co-sponsor of the bill that did the opt-out, not only from Real-ID, but from "any national identification card system that may follow"
If that sounds good to you, you should check us out: http://freestateproject.org//intro/real-id
Part of the Second American Revolution!
You mean all they have to do is blow up the tunnels. This is a fraud stacked on more fraud stacked on bullshit with bullshit sprinkles. Why the hell are we so afraid of our passenger airplanes being blown up? Holy shit, after all the school shootings in America you can still pretty much just walk in to a school, why are airlines so risky? Stupid stupid STUPID!
If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
Is the risk really that big that we need to protect planes so much more than trains, buses, or shopping centers? As long as you secure the cockpit enough that they can't hijack the plane and ram it into a building, there's no reason to worry about somebody blowing up the plane. At least not any more than you worry about them blowing up a bus, or shopping center. Assuming that somebody wanted to cause a lot of damage, and they had acquired either a gun, or an explosive device, why would they bother trying to sneak it on an airplane instead of walking onto a city bus, subway car, or other busy place, and causing mayhem.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Don't be so naive. Anything more than a 9 hour drive and you're paying more for gas by driving, plus wasting a half day or more of vacation each way. And a majority of flyers are business, and therefore actually NEED to be there in a couple hours as opposed to the next day. Who would take an 8 hour drive instead of a 1 hour flight?
Yeah, just name a country that isn't completely racist against some group, and that doesn't fearmonger its citizenry. Should be easy, right?
They already do that.
Back in the poster-boy-for-dianabol days.
Up, mostly. I'd aim for Mars or Alpha Centauri, or whatever place has an oxygen atmosphere and liquid water...
Hyperbole: I use it liberally!
Crossing the Atlantic with a car would be very fun. =)
They should start calling these pricks "annoyancizers."
From TFA:
"Airlines are seeking ways to win back passengers put off by long and irritating airport security measures who have opted to travel instead by train, boat or car. IATA said Monday it expects the industry's profit this year to plummet to $4 billion from $18 billion last year."
It sounds like people have quit flying in droves since TSA implemented scanners and patdowns last year. Are there any other stories that could confirm this conclusion?
Except if they're programmed to. Thing is, they also can't be persuaded that you're right.
And if they're bringing out the human Scanners, I fear for my thoughts and everything else...
Hyperbole: I use it liberally!
Or... our jobs are such that we visit our clients across the country. So I could spend every weekend driving and only be able to cover 20% of the country, or I can take a 10 minute pass through a security line twice a week. I'll take a ten minute inconveinance and let someone fly me somewhere in 4 hours rather than do a four day drive across the country - which would cost more money anyway.
Now, if you live on the East Coast, you might be able to travel to lots of people in a few hours. You might also be enough of a pretentious ass to think the whole country is on the east coast. For the rest of us, flying can be needed. For some of us, it's a regular thing that lets pay for things like food.
wonder how fast this would die if the company that wants to get paid for this had to sell them at cost for no profit and the highest paid employee was not allowed to be any more than 20x the lowest paid employee with no other benefits or stock allowed.
Is there a pandemic of terrorism directed at airplanes which I don't know about?
Sometimes. More and more lately... Reading TFA? Definitely right now.
Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
Yes, it would.. you could put it in the cargo hold and have dinner with the captain
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
He would move, but he's been deemed 'High Risk' so his government won't let him travel.
Me, although not an 8 hour drive but an 8 hour train ride. I used to travel from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia a lot. The plane trip is ~30 minutes, while the train ride is about 6-7 hours. With all the BS in the terminal, and traffic at the airport, the plane ride turned into a ~4 hour affair. The seats are cramped, there were no outlets, not much of a view, especially sitting in the aisle.
On the train, the seats go almost all the way back, I can get up and walk around, there are outlets at every seat, there's a viewing car I can sit in and watch the countryside go by, a movie car, a dining car, and I can even get a private room with a fold out bed if I want. And hey, if you're a smoker you can light up a cigg at every stop! Sure it costs a little more but my god it's worth it, and this was before the days of full body scanners. Now... my god I'd never fly unless I was absolutely forced to.
Who would take an 8 hour drive instead of a 1 hour flight?
You can get to the airport, go through security,board a 'plane, fly somewhere, disembark then get to your destination in only one hour?
Maybe in a private jet with limo service...
No sig today...
Can I still bring a cell phone and a laptop battery, fully charged and with their power controllers removed? Can I still bring a carry-on bag with two 1 meter reinforced steel rods connecting the handle, without anyone wondering if it could be dismantled and the steel rods used as quite effective swords? And will they still take my pencil, so I can't bring one to take notes while I make the laptop battery explode? Will they still not allow my modded PSP because it's see-through and the sight of electronics scares the shit out of them?
For God's sake, just put armed police on every plane.
Lock the damn cockpit door and arm the pilots too.
It would be a whole lot cheaper, more effective, and less invasive.
I'd go so far as to say arm the passengers too, but that freaks people out.
Airline security isn't about protecting passengers, though that's a side-benefit, but rather protecting structures / areas deemed important by the power-elite from attack by aircraft.
Hence, planes / terminals / people on the ground being blown up is of little concern compared to planes themselves being used as weapons, such in New York City back on Sept 11, 2001.
Given that you spend forever in line waiting to get to their security checkpoints, I'd say they're already "of the future"
UTF-8: There and Back Again
Even more amazing is that the flight must take negative one hours or less because you are supposed to be at the airport two hours before a domestic flight.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
I'm not sure how you make a half hour flight take 4 hours, in my experience it takes half that. Personally, I fly from one coast to another once per week, totaling 2400 air miles per week. My entire company flies to the same place as me, from wherever they happened to live. A drive would take 3 days, a train would take about 2. When I fly, I have about two and a half days at home every other week. If I were to take the train, I would have zero time and be a day late back to where I work. Flying is the only way I get to see my family. Honestly, though, if I were as close to home as you, I'd still fly because it still would give me several extra hours at home when I was allowed home. I go through the torture because I'm willing to do so for the extra time I get to see my wife. If I were a bachelor, I probably would skip the two and a half days I get just to avoid the plane too.
To say it's caused by vanity, however, seems rather ignorant to me. (Yes, I'm aware it wasn't you)
Because the military industrial complex saw the opportunity to sell expensive, unnecessary shit to an ignorant, fearful populace, and they're damn good at getting the government to give them money to waste. End result: The TSA, who has never once in its entire history prevented someone who tried to sneak a bomb on a plane from doing so. Exactly three people have tried to sneak bombs or bomb-making materials through the TSA's security since 9/11. All three have succeeded.
So they're reducing prices for luggage and fuel? The hiked ticket prices to cover the fuel hike in 2009, as well as tacked on additional fees for luggage, obesity, etc. Prices didn't drop back down much compared to the hike, and then they hike prices again for the 2011 oil scare.
That's pretty much what keeps me from flying.
There's only one way I plan on supporting ANY new scanning procedures.
Anyone subjected personal abuse as defined by criminal law, or unauthorized access to maintained information, by personnel handling the screening or maintaining the information that results in disruption of my ability to fly as scheduled, is subject to prosecution equivalent to criminal penalty under the law, or financial compensation to me.
Tit for tat people. Short of being put on a watch-list, which is another argument entirely, there's absolutely NO REASON a TSA screener should have legal authority to disrupt my schedule.
Perhaps if I had a wife and kids I wanted to see, you're probably right. At this time in my life I'm more concerned about my leg room and free apple juice, however.
The flight takes 1 hour in the same way the drive takes 8 hours--that's 8 hours not including time to gas up, pit stops, eating, etc.
Wouldn't a scarlet "A" tattooed on the forehead work better?
Oh, wait. That would require a trial. And a conviction. And facing your accuser. And a government that isn't becoming materially worse than the "terrorists" it claims it is protecting you from.
Sometimes I think the army is pointing their guns at the wrong would-be-oppressors.
Everybody gets what the majority deserves.
Mars for Martians! We don't want your kind here.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
That's a severely over hyped idea for many-if-not-most airports. An hour is plenty early for most regional airports during non-peak flight times. Sure if you're flying out of Kennedy or trying to travel on the Weds before Thanksgiving you need to get there two (or more) hours early, but out of Huntsville I never get there more than an hour early unless it's holiday travel. It was the same out of Lafayette, LA. Even going out of Boston-Logan I rarely do more than an hour and a half and could probably get away with an hour (though I get nervous with that one).
I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
Depends on the number of people, really.
Sample annual trip just made (CA to GA): 2438 miles.
Airline cost per-person, cattle-class [not adding in taxes, fees and per-bag costs or whatnot they stick you with now] started at $450 per person round-trip.
The 2005 Impala got between 29 to 30 US mpg on the highway, call it 29 to be generous (to your claim).
Similarly, gas ranged from $3.459 to $4.759 per US gallon, but generously use $5 assuming rising prices. That's $420.35 one way, $840.70 round trip.
Since this was 2 adults and one child (not young enough to fly free -- and even if it was possible, who would take a 4+ hour flight in cattle class with a squirming/upset infant on their lap... assuming they had any confidence in said infant not taking a tumble in turbulence), that $450 starts at $1350.
Car has to tack on hotels (depends on how aggressively you push it -- 2 days is possible with 5 hour sleep breaks or so), airline has to tack on transport to/from airport [either mass transit or rental car or long term parking], etc.
The big wins for me are having the trunk of the Impala available at no additional charge, no hassle with rental cars -- and most importantly, no getting handled as if I'd created a felony. The last point frankly would keep me driving even at a 2x cost factor, but you can't claim that "you're paying more for gas by driving" as that simply isn't true outside of lousy SUVs and driving solo.
And before someone brings it up -- the trains were *more expensive* than the car, and took a week to get there by routing through Chicago. Get Amtrack to get a reasonable continental train going somewhere between airline and car prices but taking 2-3 days tops and I suspect a lot more folks would choose it.
Actually, I wanna know exactly how they're assessing it. Can I challenge it? Can I find out what my "score" is? Is there anything they're not taking into account?
Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
Ok... now I'm really curious. What coasts are you referring to, and if they're the US Atlantic and Pacific coasts (not Gulf Coast to Atlantic or something silly) -- just what train did you find that only takes 2 days?
I'm seriously asking - since every one I looked at ended up going through LA then up to Chicago and back down (to Atlanta -- maybe Chicago to NY is somehow faster). If you have a link to a 2 day train which is reasonably priced (say $1k per person tops), I'd love to consider that for our next trip.
And does that assessment include the color of your skin? Because that's what it really sounds like they're talking about.
I know this is an unpopular opinion to have, but if statistics show that people with a certain color of skin have been more likely to blow up a plane in the past, why would you not use that? Just because it is not politically correct? I think it is stupid to ignore a statistic that could save lives just because some people might get offended.
Pattern recognition is a skill that we have developed over millions of years and it has kept us from becoming a footnote in history. Why should we throw that away?
I'm not saying we should anal probe every Saudi that gets on a plane, I'm just saying exercise whatever extra precaution the statistics bear up. And if other statistics are better indicators, obviously we should give them more weight.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Great way to create a new kind of government approved caste system if you ask me.
Never left the continental US, have you? Admittedly you can take a car by ferry, but transatlantic or transpacific ferries pretty much don't exist. You can book passage on a cruiseliner and put your car in the hold, but a transatlantic crossing usually runs in the $4000 range, not to mention taking 4-5 days depending on the route.. There's bridges too, but bridges tend to have expensive tolls... $50 for the one between PEI and New Brunswick, for example. At that kind of price, and with the cost of gas, it is cheaper for me to simply fly there.
I can understand where you're coming from but do think a little before assuming that everybody who flies is just doing it for puddle jumps. I have flown on short hops twice in my life... once from Ottawa to Toronto, as a leg on a flight to Winnipeg, and once from Montreal to Ottawa, as a leg on the return flight. Admittedly, Montreal is only 2h from Ottawa and it would have been faster and cheaper to drive than to wait for the layover, but the military was paying for it, and they weren't interested in logic at the time. That is, coincidentally, the only trip I have taken by plane where driving would have even been possible, as every other flight I have taken has been intercontinental, or a connection to an island, or to the extreme north where roads don't exist.
Hotel stops?
You have 2 drivers, one sleeps while the other drives.
The TSA has been working for the last six months on developing a system that could differentiate passengers by security risk to cut down on needless checks, Pistole said. "One size does not fit all," Pistole said.
They are finally thinking of using profiling rather than treating every person (old ladies in wheelchairs and babies included!) as a potential terrorist? That isn't the 'future', they could do that now ... of course this would require them to hire better than bottom-of-the-barrel employees. I'd rather they pay the employees more and give them training than spend loads of cash on unproven and invasive technology.
Optimally, yes. Sometimes that isn't an option, unfortunately. [The other adult may not be able or willing to drive, after all].
The airlines do everything in their power to give us reasons not to fly.
Now, I don't have any proof or evidence to back this up, but common sense tells me the airlines want everyone to fly, and if it were up to them, I'd bet they would eliminate any kind of security check and load them cattle up as quickly, and as profitably, as possible.
"I have no special gift, I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
I drive a Prius. 9 hours @ 75 mph = 675 miles @ 42 mpg = 16 gallons of gas @ $4/gal = $64.
Unless you're hitching a ride with a crop-duster and paying in home-grown sinsemilla, you're not getting there on a plane for $64.
If you drive a Hummer, see above about self-importance. Ibid re "wasting half a day of vacation."
Right now, a 2 hour flight gets me to visit my parents ... a 15 hour drive otherwise (assuming you actually follow the speed limits). Since I can't drive that long, I'd also need to stay in a hotel. Oh, and I'd need to eat and buy gas.
When I travel for business, I'm typically traveling much further than that. (More like a 4-5 hour flight).
If one places any value whatsoever on ones time ... spending 10 hours in a car isn't viable in a lot of contexts. Leaving the "don't go" option, or air travel.
I'm not entirely keen on this new big brother airport of the future ... but there's a lot of contexts where traveling by car simply isn't a viable option. I can fly to visit my parents for a weekend ... if I drove there ... well, there would be no point if I only had a weekend since it couldn't happen.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
You mean all they have to do is blow up the tunnels.
There's a joke about Russia in there.
How about: In Soviet Russia, Airport Blows You Up!
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
You can.
I'll be busy hitting on the Duchess.
our jobs are such that we visit our clients across the country
That's that sense of self-importance thing, again. Grinding yourself in the gears of the machine for a few more shekels is a psychological issue.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Although anything that doesn't require me to remove my shoes and belt is a good thing. Can't stand traveling to the US for that reason.
When compared to being irradiated an order of magnitude more than usual, I prefer taking off my shoes.
Yeah, probably. I mean, it all depends on how often this needs to be done. If I'm doing that trip every week, obviously the time spent on a train/driving would really start to add up. But these days if I have to go to a conference once or twice a year I'll opt for the train. I can get a lot of work done in my sleeper room anyway.
Also it's not that much more expensive. Cheapest round trip flight I can find from Philadelphia to Seattle on Orbitz is $624. Cheapest round trip for Amtrak is $857. So $233 more for a train, or about 40% more. If you get a sleeper it is more, but then again you get all your meals free.
Meanwhile, you can walk right onto your friendly, neighborhood general aviation airfield, fly your Cessna or Twin Otter to your not-too-far-off commercial field, and land behind all this elaborate security with your airline ticket in-hand. Until all our airports are sealed beneath impenetrable domes, the front and back doors will stand in sharp contrast. (Not like this is about security anyhow.)
Don't worry, they're trying real hard to close that door. Now, the little gate that has poorly vetted cabin crew who are allowed to roam in the cabin unsupervised and who have gone through only the most minimal screening before coming on to the tarmac. That gate is pretty much open....
Same with the guy driving the thousand gallon tank of jet fuel.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Not too much it seems.
1: Get your pilot's license: ~$6000
2: Build an airplane: ~$40000 and up, the sky's the limit here! You can go cheaper but it'll be slower...
3: Get a group together to afford #2 or rent your plane.
I'm not rich but I now enjoy flying again and have all the advantages of owning part of an airplane. Plus no TSA to deal with.
OK Let's compare. Leuven Belgium where I live to Husum, Germany where my sister lives. The flight will be Brussels to Hamburg. 09:35-10:50 or 1h20.
9:35 means I have to leave at 7:15 to get the 7:27 train. Later and I miss my flight. Then at Hamburg, an hour checkout. so that is 10:50. Then a train again at 12:13 and arriving at my sister at 15:15
So that is 8 hours travel time.
By train it is an hour more.
By car it is one hour less. And this is more then an hour flight, so yes, I would take the car.
When I would want to go to Amsterdam. the train would be a way better option, just like London or Paris.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
actually, there have been three people who tried to sneak bombs on with malicious intent, who were all successful and stopped by actions of people on the plane. There have been many other successful attempts by people testing the system and the workers who have also been successful. To be fair, those tests do not have complete disclosure, and most likely the only ones to get any publicity are the ones that failed to get caught. We also cant know if there have been any attempts that have been thwarted on the ground, but for the level of inconvenience, I dont really accept anything less than 100%.
They do this because the TSA is so good at capturing terrorists with their fancy equipment. Just last week, keeping the average caught per week, they successfully captured 0 more terrorists! With specs like that, how can you possibly think of reducing their effectiveness by decreasing their technological advantages. Remember how proudly they displayed the Rifle they confiscated from the GI Joe doll! Three whole inches of plastic mayhem! This new technology might DOUBLE their effectiveness!
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
If you have a Cessna or Twin Otter why would you go to a commercial field? I avoid them like the plague. Just hop in and fly to your destination, screw the commercial airlines.
It depends. I attended a few technical seminars for work about 7 hours north of me. I drove because it was up a part of Pacific Coast Highway I have never seen, it was an overnight trip anyway, and I felt like it.
Unless you're only flying from tiny little airports, I'm surprised by that. Even a medium-sized airport is crazy.
Depending on how big your city is, getting to the airport is likely a 30 minute or so affair. They suggest you arrive at the airport at least 90 minutes before your flight ... that's two hours right there. then your 30 minute flight. Figure 20 minutes easily to get your bags, and then assume another 30 minutes to your destination.
I figure that's 3.5 hrs right there, give or take.
Hell, when I fly a longer haul flight ... the trip time to the airport, the recommended arrival time, and the time on the back end don't change. My usual flight is about 4h15 minutes ... and the trip takes me about 7.5 hrs door to door.
In all but the most tiny of regional airports, I can't see how you are getting away with only 2 hours including flight time. In my experience, there's pretty much 2 hrs minimum on the front end of the flight, and 1 hr on the backend ... regardless of the actual flight time.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
There *are* armed police on every plane. They're called Air Marshals.
And the cockpit doors are closed and locked, and fortified. Pilots don't need to be armed. It's a good system for preventing hijackings: witness the fact that there hasn't been a hijacking since they started fortifying the cockpit doors.
That said, armed police on every plane and fortified cockpits do nothing against a small bomb in your carry on... one that's just big enough to cause an explosive decompression, or placed just over the fuel tank?
Personally, I think they should use explosive-sniffing dogs instead of super expensive technology that's prone to failure, but TFA is talking about an improvement over the current gate rape situation, and frankly, it's one I wouldn't really object to. I am also surprised that TFA didn't include a screencap from the movie Total Recall.
I always loved the dark, oppressive feel of totalitarian regimes and oppressive in books/movies/video games, now I get to live^H^H^H^H pretend to live in one every time I fly!
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
just what train did you find that only takes 2 days?
The secret Stonecutter train through the Earth's crust.
Except, instead of a bolt piston at the end of the line we get an energy directed explosion.
The reason for the tunnels last time i read about it was to protect passengers from exploding bombs, and the visualisation i saw was long arched plexiglass corridors.
Depending of course how long these tunnels will be, a bomb will be much more deadly then exploding in an open air enviroment.
but ...IANABM
My -1 Troll is actually a +1 funny. And my -1 flame is actually a +1 insightfull.
my only question is if you travel that route that much - why don't you just move?
by plane or by air or by anything to spend that much time just to move around seems a horrid waste of time/energy/money..
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
Will they still not allow my modded PSP because it's see-through and the sight of electronics scares the shit out of them?
Does this go with a story? Would love to hear it.
It's good to know that if someone does steal my identity, all I'll have to do to reset my password is have a cornea transplant.
I drive a Mustang, which gets 16-17 mpg. Gas isn't $4 anymore, at least as far as I've seen. It averages $4.50 in my experience, and in Canada, where I work but not live, is actually closer to $6/gallon.
675 miles @ 17mpg = 39.5 Gallons @ $4.5/gal = $180 * 2 (round trip) = $360.
I can get a flight for that length at about $300, and that's best-case scenario regarding price of gas and fuel efficiency, and it's not even factoring in the full day vacation I save (worth about $300 per day).
That having been said, if you're traveling with at least one more person it cuts costs significantly. But as I said, most travelers are business and therefore traveling solo.
True. I fly in/out of a smaller airport here in California. It literally takes 10 minutes or less from the curb to sitting in the terminal. They actually push the stairs up to the side of the plane which I like for some reason.
One caveat: I have learned to not check a bag and use a carry on only. Checked baggage can miss your flight and come on the next one if you get to the airport 15-20 minutes before a flight. I can stuff a week's clothing in mine, and for multiweek trips I make them put me up someplace that has a laundry room.
It helps to be a key design engineer because I can tell management they can bloody well send someone else if they try and force LAX on me. Every added security measure just makes it that much easier for me, actually, so you go Homeland Security! You go girl!
But a scarlet "T"
Statistically, nobody is a terrorist.
All you need to bypass such level of "security" is to find a willing participant with skin color which is not critical.
And you probably only need to do it once. Get all skin colors up to "critical level" and voila - everyone is a potential terrorist once more.
Or no one is, depending on your perspective.
Prioritizing according to clearly visible and easily circumventable markers is a poor security technique.
Might as well look only for people holding a stick of dynamite in one hand and a lit lighter in the other.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Sounds like you need to move.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I live about 15 minutes from an International airport, including traffic. For a 30 minute flight I would arrive about an hour before the flight, get to the gate easily within 30 minutes (normally takes me 10 to get from outside the airport to my gate), and I don't check any luggage, I use carry-on only. Even if I did, I'm normally the first or second bag to get off the plane. And with Hertz, my rental car is waiting for me. 15 minutes to the airport, an hour wait, 30 minute flight and 15 minutes to get my bag if I have to. 2 hours.
For me the big culprit was Pittsburgh International. It's about 30 minutes out from downtown Pittsburgh, which means either take the bus, which will take an hour, or take a cab, which will cost a fortune.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Because:
A - I just bought a house and it would be very stupid to try and sell it in this market and
B - because my projects only last anywhere from 3 months to 3 years, then I go somewhere else in the world.
I live in Washington State and work near Toronto, Canada. I have potential projects in Canada, England, Scotland, Japan, China, and Puerto Rico. It wouldn't be smart for me to settle anywhere my projects take me because I would be moving every other year or more. That's not fair to my family, so I travel.
Er, because there is no organized group of crazy dumbasses specifically targeting schools for destruction?
If the miseryshits suddenly shifted their focus from planes to American schools, you'd see a massive, hysterical rise in security in the schools.
My neighbors suck.
Your move. :-)
I've never been on a commuter train (just a historical one in Utah). That actually sounds like a really pleasant way to travel. Better even than driving yourself.
I've taken cane swords on planes recently and a heavy-duty multitool that I had no idea I had around the world for the last 20 years. In one case in 2007, I forgot I was using a balisong [butterfly switchblade, in some circles] as a keychain and was in the security line when I removed it, briefly entertained the idea of leaving the line to send it back home when I noticed the guard beckon me to a station. Tossed it into my laptop bag and went through security with no problems.
LOL. Well I didn't actually look at any trains. I was speaking from experience, which is lacking. From Washington to California takes me 24 hours, I assumed from Washington to New York would be 2 to 3. So needless to say, I was obviously wrong. But it only emphasizes my point more.
As a former regional Security Officer with counter-terrorism and explosives experience, I can tell you that all this security will do pretty much nothing to stop real terrorist attacks by organized groups.
But, hey, live in Fear. That's what the terrorists want you to do.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Well, see ya in the brown people line!
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Last time I went through security at an airport, I brought a camera, a laptop, and a bag full of tools and didn't get scanned, or even have the bag opened. This is because I was entering the secure-side utility tunnel from the non-secure side of the basement and had a security ID card that opened the door when I swiped it and entered my PIN. There was a security guard there, but she just waved us on.
Of course, in order to get the card, I had to be fingerprinted and sign a form indicating that I hadn't been convicted of murder, arson, drug possession, hijacking, and other felony crimes in the last 10 years . So I guess if I had been convicted 11 years ago, I could theoretically still get a security badge.
It's only pleasant if time really isn't a factor. It's great if you just want to treat the journey as part of the trip, rather than just the destination. One of the downsides is freight traffic seems to get some sort of priority. On one trip, excessive freight traffic added 4 hours to the journey. I was fine with it since I was in the observation car with 3G and a power outlet, but I can see how other people could find that frustrating.
Last I knew, there are not air marshals on every flight. They are only on a small minority of flights as a random deterrent that they might be there. Also, that doesn't do anything about someone wanting to simply blow a plane up, it just stops hijackings which really would work anymore anyway.
AJ Henderson
If I moved to where my project is, I'd be moving every other year or more. That's not very fair to my family, so I don't.
It really depends on flight times in some mid size cities... I know I would never try to skimp Chicago O'Hare or Atlanta because every time I've flown out of them it's been packed to the hilt waiting for TSA. Columbus, OH has times when you can get to the airport 30min before your flight and be at your gate to fly in plenty of time. I wouldn't try it during their peak time though. Last time I flew out of CMH later in the day (~8pm) there was five people in front of me in the TSA line.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
That's a good point, but the train system in the US blows. If you take the train, you will arrive late. And I live a 15 minute drive away from an airport.
You still make a good point, it just so happens that in my situation, the airport is hands down the best option for me.
...Al Quaeda today unveiled their concept of the Terrorist of the Future.
The Terrorist of the Future will travel often to various trade shows to build up a clean record of frequent travel and will have no criminal background. Ideally he'll be a white Midwestern man with a military background, but in any case he'll be 100% American - at least a 3rd generation immigrant, speaking good "English" with a US regional accent, sipping a Starbucks in one hand and fiddling with an iPhone in the other, wearing current trendy clothes and a stylish haircut with little or no beard, shooting the shit with anyone nearby about the latest trash on TV (he'll be very friendly). His religion will be listed as atheist or Christian on any official government surveys.
After going through the Low Threat security line he'll sit down on his window seat on the plane, and once at cruising altitude, press a few buttons on his phone, and say "Hahaha, that's totally awesome Jeff, but you know what's really cool? ALLAHU AKBAR!!!!" at the same moment that he taps a button on his iPhone that sets off the C4 packets implanted in his body.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Do you know where Singapore is?
We are discussing security in this thread.
I've done a lot of extended trips via Amtrak. It's quite pleasant so long as you just don't worry so much about the "gotta get there" feeling and just enjoy the view, the conversation, and the generally relaxed atmosphere.
As far as the freight problem, it varies a lot depending on which area of the rail network you're in. Northeast Corridor - no problem, that's track dedicated to passenger rail, so there's not much delay there. Going through the Rockies and Great Plains is again very little problem because there's not that much freight traffic out there. But where you will definitely run into trouble is between Chicago (Amtrak's largest hub) and the east coast. This is somewhat mitigated by a rules change that was put in place about 5 years ago to allow Amtrak to sue freight companies when they delay passengers too much.
I am officially gone from
But where you will definitely run into trouble is between Chicago (Amtrak's largest hub) and the east coast.
This is exactly where I had my troubles, going from Pittsburgh to Chicago. That makes a lot of sense now.
feeling and just enjoy the view, the conversation
You just reminded me of my favorite part of train travel: the people. I've met so many interesting people on the train, in the observation car or the dining car. People seem a little more laid back exactly because they don't have the "gotta get there" mentality, so they're more open to just talking. On a plane you might talk to your seat mate, but on the train you have more freedom and time to talk to other people as well. Also if you take the same route often you get to know the conductor and crew. After only my 3rd trip they started recognizing me by sight and today we're on a first name basis.
I drive a Mustang
See above re "full of themselves".
Another job. One that doesn't involve pretending it matters if you're there in an hour or a day, because you just have to beat that other droid to the sale.
Just...wow...
What's the problem if meets its stated goals of speeding up security without compromising it? Obviously that's a massive assumption which should be backed up by empirical study. It certainly isn't hard to see what a pain in the ass the current system is for passengers and staff. People don't like bullshit random patdowns or bag searches and I bet staff don't like doing it either when the security risk for certain passengers is minimal and their attentions should be focused elsewhere.
I'm full of myself because I drive a cheap car? You'll have to explain this to me...
Who would take an 8 hour drive instead of a 1 hour flight?
Uh, me, if it avoids being treated like a base criminal. And don't worry, my clients will be paying for any additional cost in time and fuel. I assure you I'm not the only person doing this, BTW. I wonder how much draconian (and meaningless) "security" measures like this have hurt the economy? Oh, right - probably directly proportional to the amount paid out to the various draconian (and meaningless) government agencies and contractors and oversee/implement them.
Deja Moo: The distinct feeling that you've heard this bull before.
But of course.. It would be rude of me not to share..
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
Cheapest round trip flight I can find from Philadelphia to Seattle on Orbitz is $624. Cheapest round trip for Amtrak is $857. So $233 more for a train, or about 40% more. If you get a sleeper it is more, but then again you get all your meals free.
Seattle to Philadelphia!? That's an 80 hour Amtrak trip. There are times and places for trains. Cross country is not one of them. :) I used to do Seattle -> Nebraska every year and that was fun with family but more as a trip in of itself.
If you opt out, they might still give you the special service with happy ending.
aka consulting projects - i work for a similar type of company - luckily i'm not one of the ones that has to fly
i only posed it because of the way you phrased it.. it didn't (to me) come off as project/short term work
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
need to implant a chip in the person
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Hate to say it, but I think the only thing that'll curb the drive for absolute security is if terrorist attacks are frequent enough for the public to come to some level of acceptance of the risk. I wonder if that's why we've seen so few attacks?
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
but ...IANABM
Don't feel bad, I'm not a Black Mage either.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
Why not just build planes that cannot be hijacked and buildings that can withstand a plane hitting them, and forget all this non-sense?
Lock the cockpit door. See the the Empire State building July 28, 1945 for how to build a proper building in New York.
Has to be cheaper to higher some security guard to sit on ever plane, he can slap anyone around who is looking like they want to cause problems.
No more security theater.
Your car takes 2.5 times as much gasoline as a Prius, and has a comparable MSRP. How is that cheap?
Because I paid $2k for it.
You can pay that for a Prius, too. And save 60% on gassing it up. And stop making the rest of us pay to scrape your creosote off the wilderness.
I couldn't find a reliable Prius, they were all high-mileage and in disrepair. This car was well taken care of, and the same price. And I'm not making anybody but myself pay to scrape up creosote. Those costs come out of taxes on gas, which I use more of, ergo I'm paying for it.
.. they are looking for liquids and scanning shoes.
And I've been standing in line so long that now my shoes are full of liquid.
Have gnu, will travel.
And how exactly, will they differentiate people? Nation? Date of birth?
If the government doesn't trust people, want to know everything about them, and actually sees people in general as a risk, then why don't they just kill everybody tha.. oh wait. never mind saying that.
Privacy is terrorism.
That's my only question here; Is this plan to perfect Identity scanning STUPID or is it EVIL?
Doesn't it occur to anyone, that someone who is going to BLOW THEMSELVES UP, doesn't really need to worry about their own identity AFTER?
A terrorist can also grab some good family man, tell him his wife and kids will die a horrible, painful death, and load him up with C4 -- or tell him they need to smuggle something -- whatever.
>> The ONLY purpose that tracking someone's identity will serve, is controlling the population. Which, I fear, is more the goal with this security apparatus. I'm much more afraid of a Perfect ID system than I am of terrorists -- because with Perfect ID, the Corporate-controlled government can abuse anyone with impunity, and the only people who ever get arrested are those who challenge the system.
You know, because the only rich bastards who molest ladies are socialists or whistle-blowers.
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
From the movie "Un ticket pour l'espace". Yes, always the french... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PwEO_iYkdw
Because we know from experience that they won't hire good statisticians to really figure it out and, even if they do, their advice will be overridden by people who trust their "gut instinct".
So,... Futuristic eye scanners will make this all better how exactly???
They'll make a difference because they authenticate that the person holding the passport is the person on the passport. Schipol airport has been running a eye scan fast track for years now. It requires a person to register and pay a fee for the service which people are happy to do when it means not standing in a queue for 20 minutes every time.
If you don't want to use the scheme you join the normal queue like everyone else. Of course you still benefit since participants aren't standing in the same queue as you are.
As for your other concerns, well it appears you're objecting about what happens at the moment, therefore I would have thought you would welcome anything that speeds your passage through the system and minimizes the need for patdowns or other measures which are often mandatory and supplemented by random extra measures at present. You think the TSA likes patting down kids and old ladies or forcing mothers to drink breast milk? I bet every airport security manager wishes they had greater flexibility and could focus more on the potentially high risk passengers and less on the low risk ones. If technology assists with that (a fact that would have to be demonstrated) then it will benefit everyone.
The fastest way to get from LA to DC via train is via Chicago. Most of the major western and Midwest stops run their traffic from DC through Boston via Chicago. From LA to DC, it's the Southwest Chief into Chicago (43 hours) and then the Capitol Limited (17.5 hours) with a few hours in between, for a total of 63 hours of travel. LA to New York is actually worse, with the second leg, the Lake Shore Limited, taking 20 hours. Basically, it's three days of travel in each direction.
An alternate is to go from LA to DC via the Sunset Limited into New Orleans and then the Crescent into DC via Atlanta, but that takes 83 hours and involves an overnight stay, which for comfort's sake probably means a hotel room.
Ticket prices for that are expensive, too. Looking at leaving on Tuesday, 31 Sept 2011, for LA-DC via Chicago, a basic coach seat is $203 each way if you buy well enough ahead of time, plus meals. One could bring one's own food and drink, but that may get bulky and/or bland. Changing it to a Superliner Roomette (3.5 feet by 6.5 feet) boosts the price to $701, though that includes dining. The Roomette has a second bunk for someone else to join (must add the $203 base ticket for a total of $904). A family of four can go in a 5'2"x9'5" Family Bedroom for $2522 (4 tickets at $203 plus SWC room at $1184 and CapLtd room at $526); two of the bunks are under five feet in length and intended for children. All of the listed options use shared showers and toilets. An option for private shower/toilet is available with the Superliner Bedroom. This sleeps two (three if two are willing to share the bottom bunk), is 6.5 feet by 7.5 feet, has a recliner and the bottom bed is converted from a sofa. This costs $2253 for two people or $2456 for three people.
Summary:
- $203 per person for coach (plus food, which ranges from $6 to $23 depending on which meal, not including beverage, based on the Capitol Limited menu)
- $452 per person for Superliner Roomette
- $631 per person for Family Bedroom
- $819 to $1127 per person for Superliner Bedroom
This is for each direction of travel, and is the lowest price I could find (the prices can be different on other days). This is, based on 2.5 days of travel, about $100 per day at coach (presuming $30 per day in food) to $180 per day with the Roomette to $252 per day with the Family Bedroom to up to $450 per day with the Superliner bedroom. Coach makes economic sense, but I don't know how comfortable those seats are going to be for overnight sleeping. The rooms start making little sense, as I can get a room for five days with a friend in DC plus airfare for a lot less than the $900 round-trip cost, even factoring in some nice food. As things move up from there, it makes even less sense.
Sure, there's something romantic about taking a train across the country. I'd probably even like to do it one day. But there's just nothing there that makes economic sense for regular travel.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
our jobs are such that we visit our clients across the country
That's that sense of self-importance thing, again. Grinding yourself in the gears of the machine for a few more shekels is a psychological issue.
Can you please stop texting and make me my latte already, kid?
You should be paying mine, too, then.
...they can simply close the end seals and turn on the gas.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
On your point A - Surely you'd be buying another house, so you're selling and buying in the same market.
Insanity: voting in the same two parties over and over again and expecting different results
I don't believe driving, or even taking a train is possible between Tokyo and London you insensitive clod! Now I could take a boat but then we are talking about well over a week instead of 12hours. And yes, I do need to travel between those two cities.
They have you if you drive too - your face, OCR, car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F90wnuWo6jk
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
They'll make a difference because they authenticate that the person holding the passport
What's the point of that? How many times does it have to be pointed out that the 911 hijackers used clean, apparently legit, passports. Suicide bombers tend not to have criminal records. They can board the planes under their own names.
I'm not sure whether to be horrified or amused by the idea that :
passengers would be categorized based on the results of a government risk assessment that is put into a chip in a passenger's passport or other identification. An eye scan would then match the passenger to the passport. Low-risk passengers would walk through a tunnel with their carry-on luggage in just a few minutes -- much quicker than the current average security screening of 35 minutes, IATA said. High-risk passengers would be directed to walk through the tunnel that performs a full body scan while searching for items like explosives.
Just security theatre. Has a "high risk" passenger ever actually been found to be carrying a bomb or whatever/ It's basically ethnic profiling. Whites and Chinese will go through the quick low-risk lane, brown people will go through the more invasive high risk lane. Makes people FEEL safer, achieves nothing as far as security is concerned. Is it not completely obvious that the terrorists observe this and will use people who are "low risk"? You can't predict who they are. You can either 1) treat EVERYONE as a high risk or 2) choose people at random (not just all the men whose first name is "Mohammed") and check them. Any method that allows people to duck security will be used to subvert it.
So what is it? Is it a mock-up or is it a prototype? Kind of a major difference to see wether it's vaporware or close to being implemented, no?
What a depressingly stupid machine.
Nothing more interesting than that it had to be checked in as "special luggage" I'm afraid. It traveled in a small cardboard box which came back to me on the luggage line along with my bag.
What's the point of that? How many times does it have to be pointed out that the 911 hijackers used clean, apparently legit, passports. Suicide bombers tend not to have criminal records. They can board the planes under their own names.
A fast track doesn't mean "no security" so your point is invalid. They would still pass through security checks and still be subject to random checks but some of the process could be automated. Chances are that non nationals would not be eligible as participants.
Just security theatre. Has a "high risk" passenger ever actually been found to be carrying a bomb or whatever/ It's basically ethnic profiling. Whites and Chinese will go through the quick low-risk lane, brown people will go through the more invasive high risk lane. Makes people FEEL safer, achieves nothing as far as security is concerned
If it hadn't escaped your notice, radical muslims tend on the whole to be from certain countries and have certain ethnic backgrounds. I see no issue with taking that into account when screening however disagreeable it may to be to the vast majority who are not radicals or terrorists. Not that the screening would necessarily work that way at least overtly but I would not be surprised if it did covertly scoring passengers on age / nationality / sex / manner of ticket purchase / travel history / watchlist names and other factors.
.. I want a club of RADIOLOGISTS to measure the dose, and I want a formal liability statement for any cancer I may develop before I'll walk through it. The last time a "solution" was engineered it emerged to irradiate people a lot more than claimed.
I love the idea of sticking a risk assessment on a chip that the PASSENGER carries. That's about as safe as the RFID chip in your passport which you can actually read (and thus change) from about 70 meters distance. I cannot imagine it taking long before such a chip gets altered..
But hey, at least someone is for once thinking of making a traveler's life EASIER. I am not surprised that isn't the TSA..
Insert
Why does it attempt to detect "explosives and liquids" ?
I thought the supposed problem with liquids was that they might be explosive, thus if you where able to successfully detect explosives, there'd be no reason whatsoever for denying liquids ?
Explosives come in all phases: solids, gels, liquids, gas. And solids are generally the most practical form. Never got the point of the liquid-ban, why ban liquids when all actual plane-bombs that I've ever heard of have been composed of solids, and solid explosives are readily available anyway ?
Here's an idea ! Let's ban gases, liquids and solids on planes !
Dumb shit.
covertly scoring passengers on age / nationality / sex / manner of ticket purchase / travel history / watchlist names and other factors.
Yes, and you think al Qaeda et al wouldn't expect that and use people who did not fall in this "high risk" group? You'd be spending most of your effort vetting the exact passengers who would never be chosen for a real attack and wavign through those who were in the real risk group. Any kind of ethnic profiling creates a corresponding loophole.
He factored car traffic in. Considering most airports are on outskirts of the city (vs train terminals which tend to be near the center of the city), and the roads to them tend to be jammed most of the time, a 1h drive to the airport and 1h drive from the airport is a very probable estimate.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
My wife and I flew out of Tampa International Airport on Christmas Eve 2009 and got there 1 hour before the flight left and were still sitting there for over 20 minutes after security. I know it's no O'Hare, but that's still a fairly peak travel day.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
Yes, and you think al Qaeda et al wouldn't expect that and use people who did not fall in this "high risk" group? You'd be spending most of your effort vetting the exact passengers who would never be chosen for a real attack and wavign through those who were in the real risk group. Any kind of ethnic profiling creates a corresponding loophole
Sure they would, if they could find such people. Chances are they'd soon get on the radar for other reasons. Even if they didn't it still wouldn't mean they'd waltz through security since other measures metal detectors, bag xrays, secondary random screening, behavioural analysis etc are unlikely to be waived.
At the end of the day it's a huge exercise in game theory. If you can score passengers by risk and sort them into groups such (for example) that group A would only contain 1 in 100 terrorists, group B would only contain 10 in 100 terrorists and group C would contain 89 out of 100 terrorists, would you miss more terrorists by screening all groups equally or screening groups B and C more rigorously than A. Sure some people might still slip through if you're looking at group C more than group A, but would it catch more than not sorting by group in the first place. That's the big question.
I think it's more that you could have bought like, say, an Elantra that gets at least 30 miles to the gallon, and probably pay less. Or a Vibe, or I could name lots of cars under $15000 that get good gas mileage. If you bought it used, then maybe you were buying what you could get, but you still probably could have found a more efficient car.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
Exactly this. We have too many sales people in this country. And none of them have the customer's actual needs in mind. If they did I wouldn't mind it so much. I would love to buy anything in an electronics store and not be asked if I want to pay 50% of the cost to be able to get it replaced once over the next 3 years. Or how I need to get this add-on that will only help if I'm mentally retarded and have an ape for a best friend.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
If you can score passengers by risk
That the big assumption. The "risk groups" are always based on the LAST attack. And we can be sure that if there is another, they won't use 19 Saudi nationals. But those are the ones the TSA will be looking at hardest.
hat group A would only contain 1 in 100 terrorists, group B would only contain 10 in 100 terrorists and group C would contain 89 out of 100 terrorists
But it's nothing like that. It's more like one in a million. Making any statistical targeting a complete crapshoot, and simply justifying probing all the Abduls and Omars who are almost certainly (999,999 out of a million) completely innocent. Statistically, you're better to be completely random, even if that means occasionally searching Jewish grandmothers. They can't game that. .
Nice to say in theory, but not so easy in practice.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
Well, they tell you two hours, and I have had occasion where it took almost that entire amount of time. The last flight I took, I got there about an hour and change ahead of my flight, and nearly missed it. I also fly out of a regional airport. Security was packed, and probably would have taken about 30 minutes, but they were letting people in front of us who were about to miss their plane because they only got there 45 minutes ahead of their flight, so as a consequence, I almost missed mine.
I've also had the front counter delay me about 45 minutes because of a screwup on their side and I asked them to let the gate know I was coming. They did not. I was severely chastised by the gate personnel because they had to reopen the jetway door. I told them the problem was the counter people and that they were supposed to call and tell them I was coming. To add insult to injury, I also had been given a special ticket by the front counter that automatically made me have to go through extra security. I had to add that airline to the list of airlines that I won't fly on. There are no longer any airlines at my airport that are on my list of acceptable airlines to fly on.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Cheap car? What are you smoking. Corolla (18k new 40ish mpg) is cheap car, Camry (22k new 33ish mpg) is a decent car, Mustang (28k new) is a sports car. The Camry comes out as being more comfortable inside with more trunk space too.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Yes, cheap car. Obviously I'm not smoking whatever you're smoking. Mustangs are $22k new. Learn to troll better.
Like I've already said, I paid $2k for a reliable car, unlike Carollas, Camrys etc which are the same used price but tend to wear out sooner. Honda's are reliable and I preferred one of those, but all the Hondas in my area were not very well maintained, almost all of them having some sort of body damage. The Mustang I bought, however, was well maintained and for the last 7 years has only broken down once. So once again, my car was cheap.
The equivalency of the buying and selling conditions depends on the locations of both houses, since the topic indicates the need for air travel, the distance between the houses is probably quite significant.
Even though the housing market overall is down, there are particular locations which haven't fallen as much, and are enjoying a much faster recovery, while others are recovering slower, or even continuing to lose value.
"check for liquids "and" explosives"
If the liquids in question are not explosives then why would you need to have them as a banned item to scan for?
Three hours now. Which means that my next trip to work will be taking 9 hours, plus flying time. Then the boat.
Which of course assumes that civil war doesn't break out in the transfer country. Again. This quarter.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"