Nissan LEAF Leaks Speed & Location To RSS Feed

thecarchik writes "An intrepid tinkerer has discovered yet another security issue with the Nissan Leaf: it could be revealing your location and speed to websites around the globe. The issue stems from CARWINGS, the telematics system that Nissan devised for the Leaf. '... when Leaf owners use Nissan's RSS reader to access sites like CNN, the New York Times, or this one, CARWINGS supplies ... the exact location of the vehicle — latitude and longitude — and even the speed at which the vehicle is traveling at the time of the request.'"

Comments

look at the bright side

[Anonymous Coward]

At least tow trucks will have your precise location when the battery runs out.

Law enforcement will love that

[Anonymous Coward]

"xxxxxxxx is going 95mph while reading CNN. He is at xxxxx,xxxxx. Wonderful!

Re:Law enforcement will love that

[Jim_Maryland]

I can see where it could be abused, but maybe the original intent was to interact with traffic services so people could build better traffic reports (i.e. traffic on route X moving at 15 MPH, recommend alternative route Y moving at 45 MPH).

Re:Law enforcement will love that

[Culture20]

Original intent be damned! Since anyone can see how it can be easily abused, it needs revision or needs never exist.

Re:Law enforcement will love that

[Midnight Thunder]

But was it the driver or the passenger.

Re:Law enforcement will love that

[michelcolman]

Yes, maybe the driver was only doing 55 mph.

Re:Law enforcement will love that

[Jim_Maryland]

I agree that it needs revised or removed. I just doubt that the first thought of the Nissan engineers was "how can we invade the privacy of our customers".

So ...

[WrongSizeGlass]

So Nissan's LEAF is just a driveable iOS device? ;-)

Re:So ...

[jo_ham]

Well, it precisely tracks the *actual* device location rather than random sources of EM around it, so no ;-)

It also sends that data out, unlike iOS, so maybe it's more like Android - can you opt out on the Leaf?

(note non-seriousness and winky smiley, just to be 100% crystal clear to any hot button mods).

Re:So ...

[Anonymous Coward]

NO! You're holding it wrong!

Re:So ...

[AmiMoJo]

I think Safari on iOS at least asks if you want to share your location with a web site. The Android browser certainly does. It seems like they just enabled it by default, a bit like when Microsoft enabled ActiveX in IE by default. It's shocking that they were capable of making an in-car computer system but not clued up enough to avoid making mistakes that were embarrassing in the 90s.

Re:So ...

[GameboyRMH]

The Nissan GTR is actually a much better example of a driveable iOS device. You can't mod it or drive it fast outside of a Nissan-approved track.

What if I'm reading a porn RSS feed?

[bigjocker]

Porn site RSS log:

speed: 60 mph
speed: 40 mph
speed: 60 mph
speed: 40 mph
speed: 60 mph
speed: 40 mph
speed: 60 mph
speed: 40 mph
speed: 60 mph
speed: 100 mph
speed: 0 mph
connection lost

Re:What if I'm reading a porn RSS feed?

[jdastrup]

100 mph in a LEAF? You are funny.

Re:What if I'm reading a porn RSS feed?

[chill]

No, that 100 MPH to 0 MPH wasn't a car crash, it was draining the battery in 10 seconds and coasting to a stop.

Re:What if I'm reading a porn RSS feed?

[_Sprocket_]

100 mph in a LEAF? You are funny.

I suspect that's where he lost control and went over the guardrail.

Re:What if I'm reading a porn RSS feed?

[adolf]

100 mph in a LEAF? You are funny.

I suspect that's where he lost control and went over the guardrail.

You mean...like this?

(Humor and taste are sometimes mutually exclusive, and sometimes, neither of them works very well.)

Re:What if I'm reading a porn RSS feed?

[_Sprocket_]

No - less "this car is out of control" and more "this car is accelerating beyond normal capable speed with the help of gravity." Of course, explaining the joke kind ruins the fun but your way is good too.

Re:What if I'm reading a porn RSS feed?

[MichaelSmith]

You can go very fast in a short time by pointing things downwards...

Re:What if I'm reading a porn RSS feed?

[Anonymous Coward]

And you think what you posted was funny? Your pathetic.

Nisaan Leaf violates the laws of physics

[CajunArson]

the exact location of the vehicle â" latitude and longitude â" and even the speed at which the vehicle is traveling at the time of the request.

Heisenberg says NEIN!

Re:Nisaan Leaf violates the laws of physics

[Konsalik]

Wish I had points to mod up. Just made my day!

Re:Nisaan Leaf violates the laws of physics

[Anonymous Coward]

The Leaf has Heisenberg compensators.

Re:Nisaan Leaf violates the laws of physics

[blair1q]

I'd have to mod you both down. You forget that it's position and momentum, not position and speed. You have to divide hbar by the mass in eV to find the minimum uncertainty. An electron's mass is about 500 KeV. A Leaf's mass....

Re:Nisaan Leaf violates the laws of physics

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you see? This is what we've been missing! Instead of trying to observe the particles... we get the particles to observe us, leaking their exact speed and position in the process.
Now we just need to find out what kind of web site electrons subscribe to.
They would probably avoid Slashdot, as the comments tend to be negative.
I suggest, however, that we check out the logs of New York Times, as they've recently started charging.
It might be less than straightforward to map the electrons to their correct IP, too... They might be tunneling.

Re:Nisaan Leaf violates the laws of physics

[Anonymous Coward]

And I would mod you down for implying you have to use a pre-set unit system to perform the calculation. The physical constant hbar can be expressed in many systems, not just eV...

Re:Nisaan Leaf violates the laws of physics

[Chrisq]

Nisaan Leaf violates the laws of physics

The Leaf has Heisenberg compensators.

You cannot break the laws of physics. The dilithiam crystals 'll never take it captain.

Re:Nisaan Leaf violates the laws of physics

[michelcolman]

That reminds me of the Ferrari model shown on Top Gear some time ago, where the display behind the steering wheel could either display the speedometer or the GPS map, but not both. So you could see where you were but not how fast you were going, or the other way around. Now that's a car that got its physics right!

Re:Nisaan Leaf violates the laws of physics

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not certain about that.

MPG?

[cpu6502]

This is a random question, but I can't find the answer so I figured someone here might know:

What is the Leaf's gasoline MPG? Not the combined MPG, but the MPG if the battery was completely dead and you ran the car on gasoline power?

I own a Honda Insight (70MPG) and have driven the Civic Hybrid (51mpg), which are basically pure gasoline cars (no EV mode), so I'm curious how the leaf compares.

Re:MPG?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

What is the Leaf's gasoline MPG? Not the combined MPG, but the MPG if the battery was completely dead and you ran the car on gasoline power?

Zero. You may be thinking of the Chevy Volt.

The Leaf is pure electric, range of 100 miles per charge, or if you drive like I do, more like 50 miles per charge.

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

0. It doesn't run on gasoline.

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is NaN (0 miles / 0 gallons). The leaf has no gasoline engine.

Re:MPG?

[danhuby]

It's 100% electric. You can't run it on petrol.

Re:MPG?

[cpu6502]

Never mind!

Stupid me - I thought the Leaf was a hybrid car like the Chevy Volt (40 mpg). Ooops.

Re:MPG?

[UdoKeir]

There is no gasoline engine. It's all-electric. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

Re:MPG?

[0100010001010011]

0. It doesn't have a gasoline engine. It's not a hybrid.

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

actually according to Honda Insight gets just 43MPG on highway. what is the secret to get your Insight to 70MPG?
http://automobiles.honda.com/insight-hybrid/

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't have/use a gasoline engine - it's all electric.

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

ZERO
    There is nowhere to put gasoline (except maybe in a hand held gas can in your trunk).
There is no engine that could make use of that gasoline. the LEAF is an ALL electric vehicle.

Re:MPG?

[spitzak]

No it is zero. The leaf would travel zero miles even if provided with 1 gallon of gas. 0/1 is zero.

Re:MPG?

[Ossifer]

+Inf. 100 miles / 0 gallons.

Re:MPG?

[Ossifer]

He's got an original Insight, the weird looking ones with the narrower rear axle, and the original MPG rating, before the EPA changed how Hybrids' ratings were calculated.

Re:MPG?

[ShavedOrangutan]

actually according to Honda Insight gets just 43MPG on highway. what is the secret to get your Insight to 70MPG?

Part of the fun of owning a Hybrid is inflating the actual mileage numbers. And clogging commuter lanes.

Top Gear UK figured out that a BMW M3 gets better mileage than a Prius (on a racetrack).

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

hot damn... my Insight (2010) even with eco mode on only gets about 46MPG and the honda dealer service guy said I was getting more than most he's seen... What is the secret to getting 70?

Re:MPG?

[Cramer]

Prius: 17, M3: 19.

The prius was being driven "all out" the whole time, while the bmw was basically at idle the whole time. If you stand on the M3, it'll get ~5, but it's a hell of a lot more fun. :-)

Re:MPG?

[RoFLKOPTr]

range of 100 miles per charge

THAT'S IT? For a car that costs over $30,000? I would not be able to drive to work and back on that. No wonder the lady at work that just got a Leaf needed to install a charging station there.

Re:MPG?

[Cramer]

Tying it to the back of a truck???

One has to drive rather slow and break gently, well ahead of traffic, to do well. Regen breaking can reclaim a great deal of energy, but it'll take for ever to actually slow down. Coasting over hills will also help a ton, but it's impossible to do with other traffic around -- you're forced to slow down going down hills, and run off the road going up the hills. My Lexus HS can do very well when I can glide, but with other traffic around it pisses people off :-)

(For the record, it's done 39.7mpg over one full tank. The next tank was ~32... but that was 300+ miles at over 70mph.)

Re:MPG?

[YrWrstNtmr]

THAT'S IT? For a car that costs over $30,000? I would not be able to drive to work and back on that.

You are not the target audience. I live close enough to mostly make it work.
But I have no garage to install the charger thingy, just a carport. A 110v extension cord does not cut it.
So apparently I am not in the target zone either. I wonder how many people actually are?

Re:MPG?

[DamnStupidElf]

So, how's that ~4 gallon commute working out for you? Economically and environmentally sustainable, is it?

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

off-topic but holy shit dude, you live 50mi+ from your work? Why?!

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet Starbucks can provide the demographics of pretentious eco-snobs that live within 25 miles.

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't know anything about them or their situation and that makes you an ass.

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

4 Gallons @ $4.00 a gallon. That's $16 to go to and from work. That means I pay for my mileage in the first 8 minutes of an average 8-9 hour day. Hell, my high school educated plumber pays for that in the first 12 minutes of a service call. Seems to make great economic sense. I'm also pretty sure the $4000 spent on fuel cost is more than made up for in reduced cost of living. The environmental impact of burning fossil fuels should be offset by the taxes on the fuel used for environmental remediation (if it isn't the taxes are set wrong, and the fuel is fundamentally mispriced and needs to be adjusted). This doesn't take into account the 2 hours of his life that the commute sucks up each day. Losing a full month of waking time a year is the real cost of the commute.

Re:MPG?

[RoFLKOPTr]

So, how's that ~4 gallon commute working out for you? Economically and environmentally sustainable, is it?

Absolutely, or I wouldn't be doing it.

Re:MPG?

[dudpixel]

Consider it a (working) proof-of-concept for now, and once the charging stations start popping up everywhere, expect a lot of development in this area.

Although if they start using technology to track location and speed, expect it to die very quickly.

Re:MPG?

[AK Marc]

8 minutes for $16? That's $2 per minute. At 2080 work hours a year, that's about $250,000 per year. I don't think you are anywhere near average, and would be somewhere in the top 5% of wage earners (and not the bottom of that top 5%).

Re:MPG?

[nazanne]

I've got a LEAF with the charger installed in a carport. It works very well. It is well protected in my carport, but the unit is waterproof so exposure to weather isn't a problem.

Re:MPG?

[JasterBobaMereel]

Sorry If you live more than 50 miles from work then why are you travelling by car at all ...?

Unless you are out in the sticks any other means of transport has to be cheaper, even moving closer to work would save you a fortune ?

Re:MPG?

[Chrisq]

off-topic but holy shit dude, you live 50mi+ from your work? Why?!

Seriously it happens. We have a guy in our office who commutes 60 miles each way, taking nearly two hours twice a day. He was made redundant in his previous job. It took him six months to find this position, during which he worked on a couple of contracts 250 miles from home (away every week) He has kids who will be going through their final school exams in the next two years - moving schools would be very disruptive at this point. It is unlikely that he will get another job near his home - in a largely rural area with a now closed government research facility. He is resigned to commuting for two years, stopping overnight when there is snow and then moving when his kids are in uni.

Re:MPG?

[drinkypoo]

He has kids who will be going through their final school exams in the next two years - moving schools would be very disruptive at this point.

So is driving a hundred miles every day.

I don't have any easy answers for people with kids, but they made their bed and now we should have to lie in it? It's easy for me to talk because I don't have kids, but that was a choice. I don't get a say in whether you are burning up a bunch of fuel to get to a job that the world would probably be better off without anyway, statistically. Especially if it's a government job.

Re:MPG?

[MichaelSmith]

Whats it like to drive?

Re:MPG?

[MichaelSmith]

To answer the question you could charge it from a petrol powered generator.

Re:MPG?

[RoFLKOPTr]

Sorry If you live more than 50 miles from work then why are you travelling by car at all ...?

Unless you are out in the sticks any other means of transport has to be cheaper, even moving closer to work would save you a fortune ?

Unfortunately, not around here. I work in San Francisco and live in the North Bay. The bus would cost over $20/day and I would have to leave an hour and a half earlier than by car. There is no train up here. The ferry wouldn't get me where I need to go. And if you want to move, the closer you get to San Francisco the more ridiculously expensive it is to live.

Re:MPG?

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

Since the Leaf has a highway speeds range of closer to 50 miles, and a propely tuned turbo diesel can get that in 1 gallon of gas, it is supremely possible that previous poster could be running biodiesel and actually be more environmentally sustainable then you and your smug ass. And if it isn't economically sustainable, unless the previous poster is a bank or a local govt, they'll change their behavior. But you will probably still be a douche.

Re:MPG?

[danhuby]

Assuming that your post wasn't a joke - a generator is not supplied with the LEAF. The efficiency of the chosen generator would affect the results.

A better answer would be "The question was not valid as MPG does not have meaning for Electric Vehicles".

Re:MPG?

[tautog]

Don't be a presumptuous shit. I live 40 miles from work because:

1) I couldn't unload my house even if tried to give it away (no jobs, depressed job market)
2) If I moved closer to work, I'd be compelled to send my kids to private schools because the public system is crap (big bucks).
3) The difference in taxes between my rural home an a more urban/suburban house nearly pays for my annual increase in gas (my car gets 37+mpg).
4) I have a side business that requires more acreage than the typical urban slice of hell (additional income).
5) Moving closer to work would mean higher population density, which means an increased risk of living next to a hipster shit like you.

Telecommuting, while being discussed, isn't necessarily a viable solution for my situation (Even in the "sticks", I have a slow DSL connection).

Personally, I enjoy urban living and would gladly live closer to work as an individual. But, in the near term, I'm making personal (and negligible environmental) sacrifices to keep my family in a more peaceable and positive environment (not spoken as a homeschooler religious wackjob, either).

Re:MPG?

[GameboyRMH]

Wow, you live pretty far from work. I could nearly drive a Leaf around for a week on a single charge.

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in an urban area with on-street parking, meaning the leaf would not work for me. I live within 4 miles of where I work. However, I have an even better transportation solution... I use public transportation. The trains are all electric, and take from a station 2 blocks from my house to a station 2 blocks from my office. The leaf is a non-starter for me because of power, but I still have a much cleaner commute than most leaf drivers.

Re:MPG?

[evilgraham]

Man, I live about 430 miles from the office, but you know what? We have this technology shit which means that you can (nature of job depending obviously) work from just about anywhere. And in my experience over the last 8 years, it works just fine. I have a 30-second commute to work, and you know, it beats the living crap out of the alternatives. Yes, there are exceptions, but I imagine that these can be dealt with be simply being sensible. I think that in 40 years time, in the IT game at least, that anyone who looks back at employers who insisted that you work in an office will realise that they were working for paranoid idiots who thought that they and their employees bleeding time, money and diminishing resources was a smart business plan.

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, shut up. You think anyone *likes* having a commute that long? Mine is worse than his but I haven't been able to get ANYTHING closer - even the minimum wage-type places don't want to bother taking/training someone with a college degree when they're going to leave first chance they get.

Seriously, don't be such a jerk about it.

Re:MPG?

[nazanne]

It is very nice to drive. It seems like a normal economy car. If you put it in "eco mode" to squeeze more miles out of your batteries it becomes a real dog, but that makes logical sense. It is really nice to drive around without any engine noise.

Re:MPG?

[justsayin]

Strap a Honda generator to your Nissan Leaf. Then you will get some serious mileage. Wait, can you even charge the Leaf while driving it?

I remember seeing some documentation a long time ago from Nissan at the dealer. You had to agree to provide a 110 V outlet or a 220 Volt outlet in the US. Does this new final release version of the Leaf only have the 220 volt recharge option?

They did not put solar panels on it. I know solar panels are not that great but come on, it would eventually charge the batteries right?

It would give you some energy if left sitting out in the Texas sun for 8-9 hours while you work a normal day. Actually, a normal day might be more like 11-12 hours for some of us.

Re:MPG?

[SBrach]

The prius was being driven "all out" the whole time, while the bmw matched the speed of the prius. FTFY

Re:MPG?

[GameboyRMH]

I'd imagine it's boring and a bit slow, but comfortable, like any other modern car.

Re:MPG?

[GameboyRMH]

He gets his plumbing done by Joe the Plumber :D

Re:MPG?

[mattack2]

BTW, I am against subsidies, but there are federal and (some) state subsidies that greatly lower the cost to the consumer.

(Yes.. at the cost to the rest of the taxpayers, that's why I'm against subsidies.. but would take advantage of them while they're in place.)

Re:MPG?

[RoFLKOPTr]

The construction industry does that to you. You have to go where there's work. It doesn't come to you, unfortunately.

Re:MPG?

[mattack2]

Since you say "taking nearly two hours twice a day", it sounds like you mean he runs into a lot of traffic.

So if he had a car charger at work, he could use a LEAF too, since it easily will get him *to* work. My traffic comment means that the car isn't just wasting energy (idling with gas) while stuck in traffic.

Re:MPG?

[mattack2]

However, even all electric vehicles display MPGE, so that one can make a reasonable comparison between energy efficiency in different vehicles.

Re:MPG?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's working out wonderfully. I'm feeding the trees and can travel over 400 miles on one gas tank with my car! Gotta love having range.

Re:MPG?

[JasterBobaMereel]

Ah the joys of a sprawling city with poor public transport ...

WTF?

[boristdog]

Why is a car reading RSS feeds?

Re:WTF?

[SerpentMage]

THat is what I was thinking! I thought we were supposed to avoid driver distraction.

Re:WTF?

[camperdave]

Why shouldn't it? How is the car supposed to find out about road closures, traffic conditions, etc?

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's bored...?

Re:WTF?

[treeves]

It gets bored while waiting at red lights?
Automatically updating its drivers? Ba-dum ching!

Re:WTF?

[blair1q]

Broadcast power.

Re:WTF?

[R3d M3rcury]

On the Internet, no one knows you're a car.

Re:WTF?

[Thing 1]

"You can't make an RSS reader out of a car."
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very crashy car."

Re:WTF?

[Sczi]

Zawinski's Law in action

Re:WTF?

[harmonise]

Why is a car reading RSS feeds?

The radio has an RSS reader with text-to-speech. You can tune into an RSS feed just as you would a radio station and it will read the stories to you one by one. A friend of mine owns a Leaf. I rode in it last month and he was showing off this feature. It was pretty cool to cruise down the highway listening to LWN.net stories.

Re:WTF?

[cbiltcliffe]

They do when you tell them you're on a highway doing 60 mph....

Leak?

[amicusNYCL]

Where's the leak? According to the data I see in the article this feature looks like it's specifically designed in. It's not "leaking" anything, it's specifically disseminating that information.

Re:Leak?

[NFN_NLN]

Where's the leak? According to the data I see in the article this feature looks like it's specifically designed in. It's not "leaking" anything, it's specifically disseminating that information.

It's not a leak, that's just the way it was designed. Similar to a condom with a hole in it.

Wait, that's inseminating not disseminating, never mind.

Re:Leak?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like iOS was storing all of your location data, but somebody forgot to tell the customers that key fact....

RSS Reader?

[SerpentMage]

Ok here is my question, why on earth does a car have an RSS reader? I thought the idea was to avoid crashes and avoid driver distraction?

Re:RSS Reader?

[Anonymous Coward]

Presumably it reads the text aloud, making it like a customizable radio station.

Re:RSS Reader?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Ok here is my question, why on earth does a car have an RSS reader? I thought the idea was to avoid crashes and avoid driver distraction?

Its surely for behind-the-scenes stuff like traffic and weather updates for the GPS, firmware patches, etc. RSS is functional enough for automated "push" distribution.

Re:RSS Reader?

[Anonymous Coward]

The car's a one-seater and nobody else in the car not driving could want to read anything?

Re:RSS Reader?

[blair1q]

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/ENVIRONMENT/SOCIAL/CARWINGS/

the car uses realtime traffic data to do GPS route creation

there's also some weird stuff about comparing fuel economy with other car owners. something hypermilers have to do manually. of course, there's the question of why an all-electric car gives a fuck about fuel economy...

Re:RSS Reader?

[Thing 1]

"My driver's foot is heavier. I'll activate the ejector seat so I can compete with you."

Re:RSS Reader?

[NewWorldDan]

of course, there's the question of why an all-electric car gives a fuck about fuel economy...

The battery economy of an electric car is highly variable depending on driving conditions. From an engineering perspective, there is just no substitue for massive amounts of data from actual field use. Also, hypermilers are OCD douchebags who really like to feel smug about their driving habits.

Re:RSS Reader?

[harmonise]

The radio has an RSS reader with text-to-speech and will read stories aloud while you drive.

Not a problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing US Robotics is out of business.

Another good use for a GPS jammer

[Kernel Kurtz]

to protect against the increasingly likely future that your car will routinely spy on you, either through simple complacency, or outright legislation.

Re:Another good use for a GPS jammer

[Anonymous Coward]

Have onstar? Or something like it?

Hint the cell companies and the companies that make those systems know too. How? The tower you are talking to, simple triangulation and radio strength. Yes it is fairly easy.

Re:Another good use for a GPS jammer

[EmagGeek]

It is illegal to use a GPS jammer in the US. The fines are steep.

Enables route-specific feeds

[danhuby]

Probably to allow RSS feeds specific to your journey - for example 'travel issues affecting my journey', or 'coffee shops en route'.

The oversight is that it isn't asking before sending that information.

What if you take the SIM card out?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

The LEAF has a SIM card to do its stuff wirelessly. What happens if you take the SIM out? Will it just queue up all the tracking info and upload it as soon as it gets reconnected, or is it a shoot-and-forget thing where the local copy gets binned regardless of if the transmission was successful or not?

I've been looking at the LEAF (and Tesla's line-up, yes I know the prices are vastly different, that's not an issue for me) and the whole "phone home" thing is a deal-breaker. I won't buy a car with OnStar or the equivalent unless I can be 100% sure that it is disabled. I don't need that level of hand-holding and I won't spend my money in support of such a product unless it has a 100% provable "off switch."

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just get a VW GOLF TDI clean diesel.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[timeOday]

I think we need a law to compel full disclosure on what is transmitted, and what is collected/stored in the car. The free market can't work without information.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I was looking into buying a Leaf, now I'm not sure.
Also, I think they are trying to do some Facebook-type marketing, and missing me by a wide margin.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[idontgno]

The free market can't work without information.

Well, first things first. Let's get that "free market" thingie working, and then we'll worry about information.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[guruevi]

Usually those things are pretty easy to disable. OnStar's system sits in a module in known locations which you can simply unplug the power or antenna to (a screwdriver, ratchet and a bit of manhandling may be required). I don't know about the LEAF system but I know Saab had a SIM-card based system which you could remove with a bent paperclip and when you took it out it just didn't do anything, queuing up any of that data would be useless. You could also reset the system before ever activating it again.

At this point, those systems are not made to spy on you just yet. It will probably be ordained by the government to do this (see OBD-3) but there probably will be ways around it just like you can reset your Check Engine light before going to the inspection.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Anonymous Coward]

The free market can't work without information.

Well, first things first. Let's get that "free market" thingie working, and then we'll worry about information.

And just how do you propose to get it working without something that is necessary for it to work?

You might as well have said that we shouldn't worry about putting gas in an empty tank until we can drive the car to a gas station.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[catmistake]

the prices are vastly different, that's not an issue for me

Ah... then what you want is to not worry so much about efficiency and hurting the climate (or offset it somehow... maybe create green legislation/regulation for giant container ships) and get yourself a classic that you really like... fix it up... and settle into the maintenance cycle. Pretty much anything built before 1978 is computer-less... and even the ones in cars built in the 1980's won't have an internet connection. And considering nearly every new car is a stylistic catastrophe, your risk of being laughed at will diminish considerably.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Black Gold Alchemist]

It might be time for a classic electric RAV4. They do everything a LEAF does and can be had for prices similar to a LEAF (now a bit lower) with out the spy stuff. They have virtually indestructible batteries. Sadly, I can't afford one.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[blair1q]

You used to be able to disable OnStar just by not paying the exhorbitant fee for it.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

No, I want something that makes uses of the massive over-capacity of solar-panels I installed on my roof. My intent was to use the excess to power my car rather than sell it back to the electric co at wholesale rates.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The LEAF has a SIM card to do its stuff wirelessly. What happens if you take the SIM out?"

a large group of Nissan employees show up in a micro van and pummel you for 2 hours with Domo-kun dolls or until you submit and put the card back in.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Lumpy]

You've been looking at the leaf. Do you know about the $5000+ special charger that their electrician MUST install at a premium rate? There are others you can buy but Nissan tries like hell to invalidate your warranty if you don't use their blessed charger installed by their holy electrician.

I looked at it until I realized that it's HORRIBLY overpriced for what it is. its a $50,000 (after you buy everything it needs) subcompact car that has 3/4 the range it claims it has if you drive it normally, and 1/2 the range if you touch a highway at 70mph. One of the overpaid sales guys at work has one. He stroked his green-ness for 2 months with it... now he bitches about it and stopped driving it as it stranded him on the highway with a dead battery.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[sdguero]

If you wanna feel good about saving the environment and don't care what it costs, donate 500 catalytic converters to Mexico City. Then drive something cool. You will do a hell of a lot more for the planet than cruising around in an overpriced battery and you won't look like a smug douchebag.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Anonymous Coward]

yup its a bad car because you know an idiot overpaid for one. what a classically awesome argument. fyi, a friend recently bought one for 31k without the 4500 tax credit on his 2011 state income tax. keep up your ridiculous anecdotes please.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[catmistake]

I have difficulting believing a car lover could be satisfied with anything less than internal combustion. Make sure that's what you want to do... I can think of neater things to do with power, like making the entire home wireless.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I have difficulting believing a car lover ...

What gave you that idea?

I can think of neater things to do with power, like making the entire home wireless.

Uh I don't really give a damn about how its transmitted around my house, I care about how it is consumed.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Chrisq]

There are others you can buy but Nissan tries like hell to invalidate your warranty if you don't use their blessed charger installed by their holy electrician.

Ah the one that worked on the pope-mobile

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[leenks]

They aren't clean though. I live in the UK with a VW using the same engine, and here it is considered a luxury higher performance engine. If you care more about "clean" you go for the blue motion - that isn't clean either though.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[EmagGeek]

If you remove the SIM card from the vehicle, it will not "start," in that the vehicle will not shift from Park unless the SIM card is installed.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, information is the first step to getting a free market.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Cro Magnon]

Is it disabled? I assumed that they still tracked you. They just wouldn't unlock your car or tell you where you were when you got lost.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the FUCK was this thread moderated... all the way down? FFS some mods are entirely brainless.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

If you remove the SIM card from the vehicle, it will not "start," in that the vehicle will not shift from Park unless the SIM card is installed.

Wow. That is some suck. Will it run with a dummy card in place?

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[GameboyRMH]

If I had the money I'd buy a Tesla Roadster, it's a very good sports car, and imagine the look on Corvette owners' faces when you pull away from them in a straight line! :D If you need the seats their new sedan is good too. The Leaf's a decent grocery-getter, but that's all it is. A boring commuter. Not even good looking, mildly sporty or luxurious, like Tesla's sedan.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[GameboyRMH]

I have difficulting believing a car lover could be satisfied with anything less than internal combustion.

It's mostly old-school and muscle-car guys who have that mindset. Yeah you'll miss the noise, but the convenience, low maintenance and crushing acceleration on sporty models make up for it.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry dumbass you cant count the obama discount.

Lumpy is SPOT ON. yet all you tree hugging faggots are against the fact that the LEAF is a piece of shit and does not match up to it's claims at all.
And you are lying about the price he paid, there is a 6 month waiting list because they are not making very many. no way in hell he got a deep discount on one.

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[EmagGeek]

Maybe the Corvette driver will even come back to pick you up when your Tesla dies 100 miles short of Vegas. :)

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[cbiltcliffe]

a large group of Nissan employees show up in a micro van and pummel you for 2 hours with Domo-kun dolls or until you submit and put the card back in.

But how do they know where to find you to beat you up, if you've pulled the SIM card from the car? Unless you're a dumbass, and pull the card while your car is sitting in your driveway at home.

If the card can be accessed while driving, even by a passenger, then pull it while you're one the freeway with your foot to the floor. That way you can avoid the ninja sqaud, and with any luck, they'll also think the car blew up....
If it's under the hood, or somewhere like that, pull over on the freeway after driving with your foot to the floor, pull the card, and take off. Maybe they'll still think the car blew up....

(Yeah, yeah....I know....whoosh.)

Re:What if you take the SIM card out?

[Steven_Lunn]

Agree about the price............Not sure if you can buy these in the US but interesting nontheless, provding you can get the discounts.......... - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/columnists/mike-rutherford/8343431/Mr-Money-The-price-is-right-or-maybe-it-isnt.html.

Government asked for this

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, this has nothing to do with all the government funds Nissan has received in the last few years. About 2 years ago they got a big infusion.

It's just a backhanded way to track you and Nissan can just say "oopsie, didn't mean to do that." Just wait till all that data gets mined. I imagine the bigwigs are jizzing their pants (which will provide great lube for when they jam it up your ass).

No security risk

[arisvega]

It is a feature.

Re:No security risk

[Anonymous Coward]

A feature that is also a security risk!

Think through it:
- spearphishing email
- individualized RSS url added to your car
- car downloads stuff you're interested in, and meanwhile tells the hostile server exactly where you are (and aren't)

What if I just want a car?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nissan should seriously consider a package without the GSM radio, carwings..etc... some people who would otherwise purchase a leaf may be disinclined to do so due to all the creepy unecessary features.

Re:What if I just want a car?

[0123456]

Nissan should seriously consider a package without the GSM radio, carwings..etc... some people who would otherwise purchase a leaf may be disinclined to do so due to all the creepy unecessary features.

But they probably make at least a 50% profit margin on those 'creepy unnecessary features'.

Re:What if I just want a car?

[blair1q]

Like putting a swimming pool in your backyard, adding a feature that attracts one customer but drives away another gives you net zero increase in resale price.

I own one of these...

[Anonymous Coward]

And the vehicle NAV screen displays an annoying message EVERY SINGLE TIME you start the car, explaining that it will be transmitting your location data and requires you to press a button on the screen to "agree" or "disagree." I assume if you disagree it won't send anything.

Re:I own one of these...

[n2rjt]

And the vehicle NAV screen displays an annoying message EVERY SINGLE TIME you start the car, explaining that it will be transmitting your location data and requires you to press a button on the screen to "agree" or "disagree." I assume if you disagree it won't send anything.

Mod parent up.
The LEAF has an RSS reader that reads (text to speech) the selected feed. I don't have any idea why they provide the location data to RSS feeds, but it is an opt-in system.

Re:I own one of these...

[SleazyRidr]

They don't follow the usual EULA approach and just not start the car if you don't agree? I find that quite impressive.

As cars get more tech...

[SuperCharlie]

I appreciate my 72 Ford F100 more every day. Thank God I work from home and only need it to haul things every once ina while. Yes, the mileage is hideous, but being able to wrench around on it without a batcave of scopes an electronics as well as the lack of tracking/gps/logs etc is priceless.

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Ossifer]

And people who like to breathe will never tailgate you!

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

Comments like that should be reserved for something like a 1982 Mercedes diesel sedan!! :)

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

if the socialists would stop placing tracking electronics in modern more efficient cars people would have one less reason to avoid them.

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

There is nothing wrong with a properly tuned motor, even old ones.

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, yeah, I love my gas guzzling Dodge with its 5.7 litre V8 Hemi. A battery just cannot compete with that....

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

I see you have no clue what a socialist is... That must be because you feed off of right-wing propaganda (95% of the media).

Re:As cars get more tech...

[grepya]

if the socialists would stop placing tracking electronics in modern more efficient cars people would have one less reason to avoid them.

Wait.... "socialists" ? As in these guys ??

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

ROFLOL! "Socialist" this and "socialist" that. What utter stupidity! It's corporations that install crap like that for their own profiteering desires. That's right, it's died i the wool capitalists! Sorry to break it to you.

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's right, it's not those evil corporations doing the dirty on us at all...it's that dirty horrible nasty socialist government we, uh, don't have at all. Nor have we ever had one.

Hang on, did you have a point at all?

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

I retrofitted my 5.9 to run on flex fuel. Up to 85% hippie tears. Easy to get, tell them the truth about The Dead.

Leaving the 383 out of the discussion.

Or the Caddie roadster.

Or the 850 fiat. Needs bigger bug motor + turbo.

I might buy an electric car some day. I will put a bug motor in it.

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Inda]

I appreciate my Honda Jazz. Eight years old and only a single gearbox sensor has gone wrong. You have to love modern cars that don't need reparing throughout their normal lifespan.

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

If no tracking capability was inserted into more effecient cars you still would not drive them. You have labeled all effecient cars as socialist, a negative context. People don't often spend loads of money on expensive things that they have negative feelings about when there are other options. So quit fooling yourselves and drive your inefficient car and be prowd to pay at the pump as a way to stick it to the socialist man!

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

And people who like to breathe will never tailgate you!

You're a fag

Re:As cars get more tech...

[drinkypoo]

I have a 1982 Mercedes Diesel sedan with over 200k on it and it barely smokes. I had a 1981 before it that smoked like a mad bastard (the guy who sold it to me is a lying sack of shit. he's my ex's uncle. his family owns a marina and a supermarket in town. this seems to be a theme in my life. the owner of hahn automotive sold me a travel trailer and made false claims, I guess I shoulda got 'em on paper.) This one actually smoked a lot too until I deleted the nonfunctional EGR, now it runs better and smokes less. Hooray for crappy smog equipment tacked on as an afterthought.

I also have a 1992 F250 with 7.3 IDI and ATS 088 turbo kit, and it also runs very clean. And with smooth tires on it, it will get 20 mpg freeway. Not bad for a truck that weighs 6800 lb wet and ready and has approximately the frontal cross-section of a brick wall. I have big knobblies on it right now because it's been winter and I've been in and out of the mud to do work, but I'm hoping to pick up a set of stock wheels and some skinny tires for summer.

The worst diesels I've been behind have been poorly-maintained commercial ones. I've called in two to the gross polluter hotline so far. In both cases it was literally difficult to breathe. The absolute worst is jackholes driving superpolluting vehicles like that (unburned hydrocarbons are bad mmkay) who won't let you pass. They are killing you. It makes me want to hurt them. Sometimes road rage is based on reality.

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you like mileage, get a Karmann Ghia.
It only gets 40-ish and has a bit more style than a beetle.

How it did it - a golf-cart sized 47 hp motor.

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about that.

I've seen some very old vehicles that do not (what I call) gas out (puts noxious fumes that smell nearly like unburnt gasoline mixed with a bad hard candy sick acrid burnt oil smell). There's certainly a good number of old pickups that are just freaking horrid, but what confuses me is that some of them run REALLY well. Better than that high compression smell that some newer vehicles put out. In fact, I was behind a Prius yesterday that was actually pretty bad smelling, and strangely, that wasn't the first Prius I've encountered that seemed to have exhaust issues. On the older pickups that don't smell, I'm obviously not sure if they did some work on those, but somehow I think most of the output of the bad vehicles has more to do with them still running the original equipment like the original cat.

I live near a busy intersection that's in an area that quickly goes rural to suburban to city, so I smell all sorts of crap outside. Diesels are really bad, esp. the stupid "hauler" crowd that thinks their black spewing diesel is cool when it releases a massive cloud and travels 15 feet. For some reason, lot of farm kids seem to be doing this, and the younger crowd thinks low compression diesel is cool or something. I don't get it. The tuner crowd isn't good at all; nearly all do not know what they are doing, although when you encounter a tuner that doesn't smell, it's also one of the more immaculately well-done versions. If you see an old hatchback approach, time to get inside, most burn oil badly.

As some anecdotal examples, yesterday I see this old pickup, looks well kept, and it gassed out the entire block, lasted for about 5 minutes, because it traveled upwind. Really, really bad. Didn't sound bad, ran smoothly, but holy hell. Wish this was illegal. Anyways, I went to the supermarket, and I'm walking out, and another similar make and design starts up as I'm walking by, and I'm thinking back an hour before and thinking "oh fucking hell" and hold my breath, only to realize I had been thinking and not breathing (I do that a lot), and had to breath. Smelled next to nothing, maybe like old newspapers in a room.

If he's kept the vehicle well, and takes note of what it smells like (and it really shouldn't smell bad), he may be okay.

Re:As cars get more tech...

[Ossifer]

While there are some individual cases of older cars (not trucks) having pretty good emissions, anything older than 10 years will not have anything close to the emissions standards new cars have. The '72 Ford F-150 most certainly has a diesel or leaded gasoline, probably the latter. This truck is 40 years old. This means a carburetor that needs frequent tuning (possible) and no catalytic converter at all.

It's not solely the exhaust you see and/or smell, but also the exhaust you don't.

The plain fact that the "mileage is hideous" means it's going to have some serious exhaust issues.

Duh......

[Anonymous Coward]

"as far as we can tell, there's no way to turn the feature off"

How about reaching under the fscking dashboard and unplugging the whole thing?

1. I don't want news feeds. Doesn't it come with a freakin radio?
2. I don't want to "compare my mileage against that of other Leaf owners". What is this, the 8th grade locker room?
3. No idea what information about the speed of your vehicle could be used for? No comment.

I *want* a Leaf, but I will disable that whole console the first chance I get.

Re:Duh......

[CohibaVancouver]

I don't want to "compare my mileage against that of other Leaf owners". What is this, the 8th grade locker room? No idea what information about the speed of your vehicle could be used for?

My sister is considering a Leaf, so I've been reading up on it. In a nutshell, all this 'telematics' is about crowdsourcing performance data on the car, so Nissan (and others) can get an accurate sense of battery life and other performance factors under a variety of conditions over the lifespan of the vehicles. So someone in Quebec can know that "At -5C with a 68% charge on batteries that have cycled 376 times the Leaf will go for 65 kilometers at 110 kph." (Sorry I'm too lazy to convert those to imperial units. Virtually no one uses Imperial any more anyway.)

They will learn who is charging with 110V, who is on 240, how often charges happen... on and on.

Over time, with more and more owners participating, Nissan gets a pool of data that can help improve the car, tweak the computer software etc.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

was this done purposely?

Cyanogen(mod) is looking into it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, just root the damn thing!

With a little shell script

[craighansen]

One could spoof Carwings as a Nissan Leaf doing laps around all police stations at Mach 0.99. Sweet. And that'll play hell with the platinum ratings, especially as the battery condition will be charging instead of discharging.

It Was Meant To Help Emergency Services

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure if this is mentioned elsewhere, but the Telematics system is designed to continually publish your vehicles location and speed so that if the airbag goes off, the emergency services know exactly where it happened and can respond more quickly and accurately.

Without looking into this more deeply, it sounds like Nissan is using this existing data connection to get RSS feeds (probably for traffic updates), but really the Telematics system should be isolated from that.

Who are these "socialists" of which you speak?

[Anonymous Coward]

All this data theft is carried out by corporations wanting every last detail of your life so they can charge you more for it. And by fascist dictatorships who want to stop you doing things you want to do. Anyhow, Steve Jobs is a socialist by your definition. Are you SURE you really meant to say that here?

Hmmmmmm????

listen in on cars too, just like in China?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, it can be used to listen in on cars too, just like in China?

Lo-Jack

[auximage77]

Sounds like a sales person add on to me. "Built in Lo-Jack technology!"

Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

Great info, thank you http://exercisesto-reducetummy.com/articles/flatten-stomach/

Google Analytics

[michelcultivo]

So I can insert an Google Analytics script and track where my card is heading? Good! Maybe I can make a conversion when I goes to a cool place.