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One Week: No Mouse, Just Keyboard
jfruhlinger writes "Anyone in tech has heard from grousing old-timers who believe the GUI was the beginning of the end of civilization and that EMacs keyboard shortcuts are all the interface anyone should need. But can someone use a modern consumer OS without laying hands on a mouse? Kevin Purdy gave it a week-long try."
You should have bolded Windows, but with no mouse I guess you couldn't find the really dark B...
An important change for education.
Yeah, sort of..."
Around 13 years ago, I've tried using the keyboard to move the mouse pointer. I was still a student then so I couldn't afford buying a replacement for my broken mouse. You'll get by with keyboard shortcuts. The only time I found it necessary to move the mouse pointer was when I played Command & Conquer.
Yes. I have never used a mouse on iOS and it works just fine.
I had an adviser who was blind, the only was he could access his computer was a combination screen reader + keyboard. I cannot imagine the number of things he is cut-off from due to a lack of support for keyboards.
One of our students is blind and he doesn't use a mouse on his computer as it really wouldn't be so useful. He's got a keyboard, a braille output device, and screen reading software. He moves about the system (Windows XP) using only the keyboard. It works, it is just slower than using a mouse.
I've operated Windows systems without mice occasionally because there was some problem, and again, works just fine. Even though I do it rarely, I can still do it just fine.
If you aren't on friendly terms with your mouse I would recommend the conkeror web browser. This has saved me quite some hazzle in situations where I either don't have a mouse (my TV computer) or when the mouse is awkward to use (my laptop with a substandard trackpad).
For those who don't know, conkeror is a web browser based on xulrunner which is designed to be used in an effective manner without a mouse. If you happen to like emacs, you'll probably feel right at home since the keybindings (by default) are inspired by emacs. If you are not familiar with emacs you will probably need some more time to get used to conkeror. However, since conkeror allows you to use a mouse as well if you want to you can adapt to the browser without feeling too handicapped.
If this seems interesting you can find more information about conkeror at http://conkeror.org/.
Windows is FAR better than Linux in the run-the-GUI-with-keyboard-only department. Sure, Linux has a better console environment, but these keyboard jockeys utterly failed at keyboard jockeying their graphical programs.
I liked the Amiga's solution: Holding down one of the Amiga keyboard buttons turned the cursor keys into a virtual mouse, with Enter or Space or something representing the mouse buttons. A very simple solution when some program didn't have a keyboard shortcut and it wasn't worth grabbing the rodent.
On Win7, how the F*** do you log off, shutdown, or restart without a mouse?
On XP, it was {CTRL+ESC|WinKey}, U, {L|R|S}
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Windows is actually mostly OK w/o mouse. Most MSFT applications are quite keyboard friendly. Ditto Mac OS X. The OSs give impression that they were at least somehow tested for the occasional mouse failure. (Safari with keyboard only is very functional.)
Can't say the same for the modern Linuxes, Ubuntu 11.04 in particular (IIRC previous versions, based on GNOME 2.x are not better). Recently my trackball dyed and I had to get around with only keyboard. It was abysmal. Essentially, it went like Alt-F2, xterm, sync, etc, shutdown -h how. From GUI, trying to eject the USB drive properly without the mouse to me proved to be impossible.
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
Exactly my thought and most webpages can use some work on that.
Maybe even browsers.
New things are always on the horizon
I don't grep any obvious mention in there about his web-browser, but I should mention that, Opera has, among other tools*, a way to roughly navigate the 2D page via arrow keys while holding down shift. Much easier than hitting tab N times.
* For example, you can use text-searches to simply type the link you want and then hit enter (I often use this in forums) or Control-J to show all links in a page.
While interesting, the whole premise is rather silly. Trying to use an object while rejecting the intended control scheme and asking "will it work as well?" is the silly part. What's next, examining the effect of trying to drive a car with no steering wheel, just the column to grab onto? It's built to use the wheel, and is a daft comparison to make. For the best user experience, a modern OS is built to use the mouse (or a touchscreen for a mobile).
A worse case: on n900, a device with a keyboard, Nokia in their infinite wisdom decided that to set an alarm you need to swipe a number of times to scroll to the hour and minute you want.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
I believe this has been moved into the Accessibility features for most modern OS'.
I would have loved to click the link in the article, but I couldn't as I too have given up my mouse...
Specialist Mac support for creative pros, Melbourne
Don't you have a Wal-Mart SuperCenter nearby? Even though the chain sucks ass and is questionable when it comes to business practices, every one of them nearby is open all night, every night. You're only screwed if you want to buy beer, due to Ohio's state alcohol laws (boo, anti-drug laws). Or what about Walgreens? Both of those are open practically 24/7 (with Christmas being one of, if not their only times closed AFAIK). Not sure if all Walgreens are open all the time, but it seems like at least all the local Wal-Marts are...
You actually use a wysiwyg editor for posting comments, and not <b>bold</b> tags? I don't use a Mac, so clearly my keyboard shortcuts are faster.
I taught myself to not use the mouse after my laptop came without a mouse. It was hard for about 10 minutes, but there's this space under the spacebar that seems to work pretty well.
There isn't just one Linux GUI. Sure, some are designed to mainly use the mouse, but then there are others designed to only need a keyboard.
For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmonad
why the hell did they change it? Here you have keyboard commands that millions of people have memorized, and they throw them out just for the hell of it. It's almost as if Microsoft doesn't give a damn about their customers. Crazy, I know.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
that's an Ubuntu problem, not a "Linux" problem. There are Linux distros that are accessibility-friendly. Pure, raw, actual Linux doesn't really have a gui anyway.
For many folks it's a more than an entertaining jaunt into the wild west of accessibility, it's a way of life.
In soviet linux the keyboard is the mouse:
http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/movecursor.html
I'm surprised nothing was said about spatial navigation (particularly because Opera touts this as a big feature). It looks like Chrome is getting this too, though.
... I'm doing it all day long. Using a tiling window manager like dwn, wmii, awesome, ratpoison, (etc.) you can arrange your windows with the keyboard. Most applications I use on a daily basis are console-based anyway: vim, mutt, irssi, ... Even firefox is keyboard-friendly if you install the vimperator plugin.
Most of the time, I feel like I'm much faster using just the keyboard, especially when programming. However, there are of course certain applications where a mouse is needed (like image manipulation (GIMP), CAD, ..).
If you are using Firefox, try the Pentadactyl nightly or Vimperator.
I liked the Amiga's solution: Holding down one of the Amiga keyboard buttons turned the cursor keys into a virtual mouse.
In Linux you can press SHIFT + NUMLOCK.
This toggles numpad-keys-as-virtual-mouse behaviour.
If I clone myself, can I call it a thread?
If a girl winks to us, can I call it a race condition?
Designed for just keyboard use.
http://xmonad.org/
A WM isn't the whole story. You could end up still fighting the GUI toolkit all the way down if the application isn't built with foresight. Even something as simple as bad tab order between fields.
Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
OSX ?
How does one access the menu items without a mouse in OSX? Genuinely asking... on windows you press alt, and then you can navigate the menu system with the arrows. I'm pretty sure that doesn't work on the mac.
And I know I've hit thousands of OSX dialog boxes that won't let you tab between the buttons or controls. (especially radio buttons and checkboxes...) My mac's not in arms reach or I'd fool around and find some examples...
I did this from time to time (lets just say in the lab i find it enough if every oscilloscope or auxiliary control computer has a keyboard flying around without a mandatory mouse.
The gnome desktop was hard to navigate, Windows for sure possible and more consistent across applications.
The mouse is useful to select windows, do edge-scroll between virtual desktops and select text regions. (fvwm2, obviously)
Other than that, I use it for gaming and that is it.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Some Wal-Marts, such as the inside-the-Perimeter ones in Atlanta, do close at night.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
...or a 7-11?
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Are you kidding me? Things like, oh for example the Ribbon interface in Office 2010 make using just a keyboard even EASIER. EVERYTHING is accessible by keyboard, with key combinations that could be memorized, as opposed to having to navigate menus with the keyboard for anything where there wasn't an assigned keyboard shortcut.
HMM? almost every linux program has extensive keybindings, and there are a few "use keys to move the mouse pointer" programs around.
All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
try pmount for umounting next time
All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
I dont think I have even seen a router with a mouse plugged in.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
... one week NO MONITOR juta sdf agah!!!
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
the Finger-Nose
It's also possible to use a computer soully with a refreshable braille display device, though it gets aggrivating, and there's no way in hell I'd do it for a week.
On the Linux side of things, the accessibility is far worse than in Windows, but Gnome provides a lot of the same types of keyboard navigation mechanisms as Windows (Orca doesn't work on KDE, sadly).
Yeah, individual apps might be keyboard friendly, but OSX itself is far from it. I would say it's worse than linux in that regard.
But I thought Ubuntu was supposed to be the most accessible of the Linux distributions!
(Note for the humor-impaired: Yes, it's a pun.)
(Note for the those that have a well-developed sense of humor: No, it's not a very good pun.)
(And a note from me, the pedant: Pure, raw, actual Linux doesn't have any sort of user interface at all!, except for perhaps the Magic SysRq key.)
Kid-proof tablet..
I liked the Amiga's solution: Holding down one of the Amiga keyboard buttons turned the cursor keys into a virtual mouse
You can do the same in X, with shift-numlock. Recent versions will require an xorg.conf option to enable it however.
BTW, what's with X.org shipping broken by default these days? You have to add options to enable basic functionality like mousekeys or ctrl-alt-backspace. Lame.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
control-f2, at least when running VoiceOver. Not sure how to do it if you have working eyeballs and no need for a screen reader.
If you're in classic view (i.e. no unity), press control-alt-d to get to the desktop. Navigate to the drive icon, then press the "Applications Key" (usually to the right of the right alt key), then down arrow to "eject drive" or "safely eject drive."
System Preferences .... > Keyboard > Keyboard shortcuts.
You can choose to move focus to the menu bar, dock, cycle through window focus, focus on the tool bar, next window in the application, status menu (the right part of the menu bar). Also lets you change tab settings at the bottom. If it's a menu option in an app, you can assign a key to it.
Should look like this
Also in dialog boxes: A "Command-$$" will select the dialog entry starting with $$ letter.
Say the save dialog box shows up:
"Save" "Don't Save" "Cancel". Save is highlighted. So hitting enter will save it.
Command-D will "Don't Save" it"
Command-C will "Cancel"
Command-S will "Save"
You must not have full keyboard navigation turned on.
Control-F7, or turn it on in the System Preferences pane.
Then you can keyboard navigate virtually everything.
Someone else mentioned the default key for keyboard navigating the menubar, but I have mine customized (also in the Keyboard pref)... since I have the control key where it belongs ("Apple Keyboard" with an ADBUSB converter), it makes things easier to type. ^1 goes to the menubar, ^2 goes to the Dock, ^4 goes to the window toolbar.. I have a few more set up, but mostly the menubar & dock are the ones I use frequently.
... fail.
Supposedly, the operating system that "we" made was supposed to have full keyboard support, so we won't have to leave our beloved home row, right?
Wrong. I had a mouse go bad one time, and found out just how wrong.
For starters, just to log off or turn the computer off, you have to click a button in the top panel (in Ubuntu/Gnome), but, although there's a shortcut for the top menu (Alt+F1), you can't get to the panel buttons from there.
Plenty of other annoyances as well, including being not able (or hardly able) to switch among different sections of a program (such as file browser or web browser) with the keyboard.
Protip: I think Gnome's supposed to have support for MouseKeys. I used to use it all the time in Windows, but haven't in Ubunutu. In Windows, there's a handy keyboard combo for turning it on and off. Without that, you've disabled your numpad.
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
Specifically, for either the Menubar or the Dock, you hit the hotkey, then use arrows or type-selection to navigate to specific items, and space to 'hit' the currently selected item.
It appears that Ctrl-Alt-D was the shortcut I was missing. In Windows 7 I too do not know how to get to the desktop with keyboard shortcuts (in Win XP IIRC it was Win, Esc, Tab; hm something similar works in W7 too), but raw window of Explorer is sufficient (where from you can navigate e.g. to computer management).
Otherwise, Linux, or X Window System, is probably the most keyboard unfriendly environment I have ever encountered. KDE 3.x in my past experience was OK (they mimic Windows a lot, also in keyboard shortcut aspects; no experience with KDE4), but GNOME based systems not once have failed me in keyboard department in past (my departure from GNOME (1.4) was largely due to removal of keyboard shortcuts altogether in GNOME 2.0; IceWM FTW!).
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
The blind and some print disabled use computers all the time without a mouse. On MacOS X and the iOS there is a built in screen reader called VoiceOver (started with a command-F5 on a standard keyboard function-command-F5 on portables. With VoiceOver running you can work the OS with no mouse, or for that matter even a screen attached. It also support a wide range of braille displays.
There is similar products for Windows but they are not built into the OS and some, JAWS and WindowEyes for example, can cost more than the computer they run on.
On on the whole this is a rather silly question which if the authors had asked the question "How do the blind use a computer?" would have been answered.
Gregory Kearney
Manager - Accessible Media
Association for the Blind of Western Australia
61 Kitchener Avenue, PO Box 101
Victoria Park 6979, WA Australia
Telephone: +61 (08) 9311 8246
Telephone: +1 (307) 224 4022 (North America)
Fax: +61 (08) 9361 8696
Toll free: 1800 658 388 (Australia only)
Email: gkearney@gmail.com
Who still wants a keyboard with a numpad?
Me. I don't know about you, but when typing numbers (especially several in a row), NOTHING beats the number pad. The only devices I find it acceptable to go without a numpad is when using devices that omit it for space reasons. Which would be... netbooks. I wouldn't want to use a calculator program without it... which effectively makes netbooks lousy as portable calculators.
Windows is actually mostly OK w/o mouse. Most MSFT applications are quite keyboard friendly.
Yes, and thank goodness for the keyboard shortcuts. When MSFT made all of their applications with the "Windows 7" look, they managed to add an extra mouse click to everything you want to do, and also managed to hide most of the common features that you might use in Word or Excel. Fortunately, the keyboard shortcuts are still the same.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Again, unfortunately the only GUI environments that are accessible in Linux are Gnome and LXDE, and maybe parts of XFCE (I'm not that brave though).
But in Linux, of course. I use Arch Linux with the ratpoison tiling window manager. For web browsing I use firefox with the pentadactyl addon. pentadactyl (a fork of vimperator) gives firefox a modal interface like vim, along with the vim keybindings of course. I almost switched to chrome before I found that addon. apart from firefox, the only gui apps that I use are a few lightweight ones for dealing with pdf/media, such as apvlv (a pdf viewer with vi keybindings) and sxiv (an image viewer, also with some vi keybindings). for nearly everything else, I use the command line. MPD + MPC for music, mplayer for movies, mutt for email, vim of course, etc. the only time I ever use a mouse is for a few web apps (mainly google maps).
I wouldn't even bother if I wasn't using linux though. Windows and OS X are built with the mouse in mind, and they just aren't as configurable. I would still use pentadactyl, but that's about it. I do commend the author for trying such a feat though. I'd hate to have to deal with windows without a mouse.
also, anyone else out there use the dvorak layout? I switched in december and am up to about 80 WPM now. I actually use a variant called programmer dvorak (and with the caps lock and left control key switched). It really is great, I love the keyboard.
Anybody want a peanut?
I found the command key plus number better than alt tab, and alt f then arrows fine on the rate occasion I needed access the system part of the menu in 11.04. Command plus typing was decent too (making me but need alt f2).
The only place windows wind in window management is command plus arrows for window management in windows 7
As for ejecting, you have a point.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
Essentially, it went like Alt-F2, xterm, sync, etc, shutdown -h how.
Um, how do you shut down? :)
Seriously, though, Microsoft seems to be losing it lately; I have two examples.
First, the scroll wheel often doesn't work in some of the Management Console applets. That's a huge usability fail. (Even though I prefer not to use the mouse.)
The second is that in recent OS and Office, there are more than one accelerator with the same key, requiring the user to hit <key>, then Enter, in order to complete an action that previously required just <key>. This cuts user productivity in half! (For that function.)
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
F5 will refreshes everything.... except Notes. F9? WTF? It's the keyboarding equivalent of being the only airplane where yanking back on the yoke makes a nose dive.
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
"Windows is FAR better than Linux in the run-the-GUI-with-keyboard-only department."
That MAY have been true early on but it simply isn't any more. I frankly don't see much of a difference feature-wise between Windows, MacOS, or Linux. Gnome and KDE have all the KB features Windows does. Also given the fact that you can re-map the entire keyboard in all three OS's the differences aren't really all that different. It simply isn't significant to point out the differences between the 3 platforms anymore.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Many may already know this, but I thought I would post anyways... if you want to make greater use of gestures while browsing, and use Firefox, see the article here...
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=737074
There are assignable gestures hidden in about:config, and browsing is so much better once you find some customized combinations that you like. Here are the ones that I have altered and find helpful:
Swipe down: new tab
Swipe up: go home
Pinch in: close tab
Pinch out: toggle between full screen/not full screen
Rotate right: reload
Rotate left: undo close tab (for those times you accidentally pinch in)
Name: Mr. Anon E Mouse; SSN: 555-55-5555
Have you seen the 'Awesome' window manager? If you look at its home page at http://awesome.naquadah.org/ you will notice one of its features is 'No mouse needed: everything can be performed with keyboard;'.
Don't get me wrong, I also liked the fact the Amiga let me move the pointer via the keyboard, hell it saved my ass when I killed my rodent once but to say Linux sucks with running a GUI with only a keyboard when solutions such as Awesome exist is a bit of an over simplification.
I use CrunchBang, a modified Debian Squeeze distro that is almost entirely controlled by keyboard shortcuts. Sure, you use the mouse as normal for browsing and all that, but the interface is keyboard-based.
I'm not sure if Windows can be customized like that, but it almost certainly takes a lot more work.
The most annoying thing to me are web forms or applications with bizarre tab orders. (Even the "helpful" ones that move your focus after you fill the field are annoying since you might type your area code, hit tab for the next field, but end up at the field for last 4 digits.)
I won't even delve into the horror that is non-standard gui/keyboard implementations in flash interfaces.
It's fantastic, even the keyboard is useless.
That's not true at all! You still get SysRq!
Thanks for the information.
I wonder why on earth is that not on by default?
Who's the leader of the band that made for you and me? M-I-C-K-EY M-O-U-S-E! Mickey Mouse. KEYBOARDS SUCK! Mickey Mouse. WTF?! Forever we will point until we die. HI HI HI! HEY there! HI there! HO there you're as welcome as can be. M-I-C-K-EY M-O-U-S-E!
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
Oh, now that I read the rest of his comment, adolph beat me to the punch. Oh well.
When Microsoft started Windows, that was also true. There were rules for how to
do GUI stuff and if you implemented that "GUI stuff" you also had to implement
the keyboard version of the navigations.
Are you kidding me? Things like, oh for example the Ribbon interface in Office 2010 make using just a keyboard even EASIER. EVERYTHING is accessible by keyboard, with key combinations that could be memorized, as opposed to having to navigate menus with the keyboard for anything where there wasn't an assigned keyboard shortcut.
Except you didn't read the above comment, and responded as if you thought it said the exact opposite of what it actually says... Originally, *everything* had an ALT+Key combination... The magic ribbon didn't actually change anything, it just utilized the previously arranged instruction set. In other words, there was no "navigating menus" once you understood the keyboard combinations. The magic ribbon just changed the "look and feel" of the interface, and alienated anyone who had gotten used to the old way of doing things.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.
Who still wants a keyboard with a numpad?
Every scientist, engineer, businessperson, or individual who thinks quantitatively and likes to do math in real life.
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
Hey man, thanks for tossing out the Model-M I bought for $5 at a junk store (and thanks to the proprietor who didn't know what he had and just stacked it with the rest of the $5 keyboards).
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Perhaps using OSX without a mouse is considered "doing it the wrong way"?
Well, that excuse worked last time ...
Enlightenment was designed to deal with that as were several other window managers in the decade+ since. The clue is to actually look at a list of keyboard shortcuts in your environment of choice and if they even have mouse movements in there you know it has been dealt with. I never said easy or ideal, just that you can get away without a mouse even when running a program that is designed to be operated only by mouse.
Who cares.
No keyboard, just mouse.
I eat only the real part of complex carbohydrates.
Why did you buy a keyboard with a "Windows" key on it, then? Are you just looking for some reason to bitch? I'm typing on a keyboard with no "Windows" or "Start" key on it right now.
I don't respond to AC's.
Learn how to use a computer, and your Windows key can be used for whatever you want.
But I forget, things were better when there was a giant fucking empty space between ctrl and alt! I MEAN LOL U CULD PUT A FAKE 'PANIC' KEY THERE HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
Kevin is a wimp. Next week I go 1 week with just a keyboard and mouse. No monitor or computer.
Well allocating the whole alphabet would be dumb I think. A good keyboard interface would not do "Windows+letter" combos, they'd have different combos, some longer keystrokes for more options, a key vastly easier to hit than Windows or Command, etc.
The "Windows+letter" combo is only used for menu shortcuts from all I've seen. And that's where the design fails. They start with the GUI menu _first_ and then map hotkeys to that so that the result is something clumsy.
Seriously, you only found one shortcut for the Windows key? I find that surprising. There are quite a few more: Win+Arrow Keys can be used for window management (only in 7, to my knowledge), Win+R opens a run dialog, Win+D takes you to the desktop, Win+F opens a search window for the system, Win+E opens an Explorer window, Win+Break opens System Properties, Win+Spacebar peaks at the desktop (only in 7, to my knowledge), and Win+L locks the currently logged in account (useful if you live in a dorm or other environment where people like to mess with your system when you step away for a moment). There are many others, but these are the ones I find most useful. YMMV. I'm not sure what other simple key combinations could be used for the same functionality. And if you're using Mac OS or Linux with that Windows keyboard, it works as the command key or super key. So yeah, I'd say it can be quite useful.
What's EMACS?
I thought you meant vi....
Self Defense - A Human Right www.a-human-right.com
My new laptop has no NUMLOCK key, you insensitive clod!
Yes, seriously. Weird, eh?
I think because some people are "confused" by the focus ring.
Windows is FAR better than Linux
WARNING: Trigger phrase detected. Ninja assassins dispatched.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Macbooks don't have them or their bluetooth wireless keyboard. I find it quite annoying.
It turns out that the blind who use both Windows and Linux extensively don't use the mouse at all. Linux has an awesome screen reader, Orca, which currently only works with Gnome (sorry KDE - but maybe soon?). It works, but basic crap like the GTK calendar control and icons in tables are not accessible at all, not due to Orca, but due to lack of caring about accessibility across the Gnome groups, especially the GTK+ team. Windows wins (sorry Linux). This is because that great evil man Bill Gates actually does have a heart, and made sure Windows was accessible far before Linux or Mac. If you want to know how to use a computer without a mouse, just ask a blind computer geek. It's Windows, man, which totally sucks.
Celebrate failure, and then learn from it - Nolan Bushnell
I will not own another wireless keyboard or mouse again. Ever.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
I can't do any real work with a trackpad. Compared to a mouse, I find the trackpad inferior for text editing, it's useless with photoshop, 3d modeling application and games (not that games constitute work, unless one's making them). For most stuff (other than web browsing) even on my laptop I use a mouse.
On a side note, of all the laptops in the house (new macbook air, sony, toshiba, acer netbook) I actually find the apple trackpad the hardest to use because of the virtual buttons.
Unless by "work" you mean browsing the internet, I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something?
> Every scientist, engineer, businessperson, or individual who thinks quantitatively and likes to do math in real life.
I am not sure if by inference this would include network administrators... but in any case, managing routing rules without a numpad would be insane (and possibly unhealthy)
lucm, indeed.
Well said! And if we are at keys we need - I'll never buy a keyboard without the INS/Delete HOME/END PageUp/PageDown keys.
Probably I'm too fucking old - but I love my Ctrl/Shift+Insert and can't stand ctrl+x/c/v.
iOS has really excellent support for the disabled, built in screen reading and everything. You might think the blind could not use a touchscreen well but the devices are small enough it's easy to get position right.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I would assume it is because it adds a bunch of complexity to the user interface together with what is basically a feature the vast majority of users simply won't use.
So you can turn it on but it defaults to being turned off. A reasonable compromise.
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
I traded in a desktop cga xt with a 14.4 modem for a mono vga 386 nec laptop with broken screen hinges and no mouse. 2 years later fuck it! windows is braindead for the keyboard enabled
ctrl alt windows bullshit, nothing special
as am I and I do not miss it a bit
course I dont use windows on a regular basis so I really dont care about win+R for a run command, or find, or show desktop, or instant file browser ... etc that no one in their right mind could ever possibly find useful according to the op that cant read a whole page of html nor install anything but windows ...
Windows is one of the easiest operating systems to navigate without a mouse. Just try to do that with an X interface you self important fucktard.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
hold shift, press left or right arrow to highlight. press context key, or use bold hotkey.
You people are morons.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
Except they tend to suck ass because they're designed by people with no concept of usability.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
command-shift-/ then press left/right/up/down arrows. Enter to select.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
Bah! I've got two degrees in "math" as you call it. You can do /arithmetic/ on a keypad, but you can't solve a 17-variable PDE or prove the Contraction Mapping Theorem.
I use to own a XP. and Is easy to shutdown it using only the keyboard. Even with the monitor off. I have done it daily. Something like "ctrl+esc up enter right enter"
Now I "upgraded" to Windows 7, and the same key combo don't seems to work. Any suggestion? What combinations of keys will result on W7 to shutdown?
-Woof woof woof!
Where'd you buy it? I'm curious. As much as I'd like one of those awesome IBM keyboards, my laptop came with a Windows[tm] key and there was no model that didn't.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
When I read the title and summary I immediately imagined browsing the web to be tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, tab, shift-tab, shift-tab, enter, repeat. This method makes a bit more sense.
Jokes come in all shapes and sizes. Some are even ugly and dumb.
An important change for education.
I would like to see a window environment that offers command mode like vim. For example, all controls in currently focused window should have a line number faintly visible (one number per line for text boxes with multiple lines). You can highlight change focus to a particular control like changing to a line in vim: `:12` Tightly packed stuff such as buttons on a tool bar might only one number, with decimal values for the things inside it (or a number each, whatever). You would only need to show the number every 8 buttons or something, people can count the sequence between. ctrl+w, hjlk for window selection... etc And while we're at it, repurpose that useless scroll-lock key to toggle to vim mode, so power users can quickly turn it on when they sit down at any computer.
... but still use my favourite analog pointing device, thanks to ThinkPads and the awesome trackpoint-enabled ThinkPad USB keyboard.
God, root, what is difference ?
No, most of us cannot be bothered learning a buttload of inane key bindings. Maybe for some repetitive things, but in general, I have more important things to keep in my head.
I think you misspelled "fap, fap, fap, ..., fap" there...
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Well, yeah. He used a mainstream OS instead of an obscure 1% market share OS. What so strange in that?
The numpad is the only way I can play Nethack. I could never get to grips with those VIM keys.
There are 2 types of people in this world. Those who understand ternary and those who don't.
Every scientist, engineer, businessperson, or individual who thinks quantitatively and likes to do math in real life, who is not lefthanded.
There, fixed that for you.
Doesn't work in Firefox 7 either.
Ahh, the benefits of running dailybuilds. :-)
New things are always on the horizon
Try Fn+7/8/9/u/o/j/k/l (and Fn-i to click), that works on my (Ubuntu 10.04) laptop. I think it's being converted to numlock-based or at least keypad-based codes behind the scenes. (You have to turn "Pointer can be controlled using the keypad" on in Assistive Technologies | Keyboard Preferences first, but that can be done entirely using keyboard shortcuts; the "System" menu can be opened via Alt-F1, Right, Right.)
(1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
Except they tend to suck ass because they're designed by people with no concept of usability.
And that's the perennial problem with open source. Usability is often an afterthought and as a result open source apps suffer by comparison to their commercial counterparts. One of the best things to have happened in the last few years is that usability has become a lot more prominent in projects like GNOME, Firefox, Ubuntu and the results are there to see. Other apps like Open/LibreOffice, GIMP, Eclipse would all benefit from their own usability makeover.
Assuming the app developer properly set up tabbing in the fields....
I've messed with some .NET apps where I can tell what order the developer added fields and rearranged them because he like the ordering better based on how the cursor jumped around the fields.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
While I use keyboard shortcuts for a whole lot of things in my day-to-day computing, it would not be possible for me to do my work without a mouse. Why? I do a fair bit of CAD, using software like Pro/E and Solidworks. Quite simply, there is no way to create or manipulate those 3D objects without a mouse. You could get far with the keyboard for viewing objects, and both of those CAD applications make extensive use of (heavily customizable) shortcuts for creating and executing features, but a lot of core operations (sketching, selecting, etc.) can only be done with a mouse.
I was about to mention Nethack as well. I can't stand vi-key movement controls in it...and I even use vim as my editor. That's right...I use my cursor keys in vim.
The entire point of a GUI is to facilitate input devices like mice, keyboards, trackpads, those pen-thingies, trackballs, etc. For example, I use a mouse and a trackpad (running Lion dev 4) because of the various gestures available with those two device. In addition, I use a keyboard, because it's the best way to input text (duh).
People who complain about GUIs and lament the diminishing use of the command line are doing so because of a poorly designed GUIs or personal baggage they bring to the plate. Of course people are going to prefer the way they know, even if it isn't as good as the new way.
Of course command line is better for some things for some people, but the overwhelming majority of things average users do with a computer are better achieved via a GUI. There's no shame in using a GUI and there's no extra nerd cred for going command line, because being a geek stopped being new about 15 years ago.
There are Linux distros that are accessibility-friendly.
For example?
I have yet to see a single GUI-based distro boasting that it is keyboard friendly out of box.
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
The real problem with the Windows key is it doesn't make it easy to figure out the keystrokes, because if you press it without pressing another key, it opens the stupid start menu. This causes new users to think that's the only thing that key is used for.
And there's nothing in the file menus to tell you the win + key shortcuts.
But I thought Ubuntu was supposed to be the most accessible of the Linux distributions!
Actually, I think those are bad genes, inherited from X Window System. In past I have tried to use bare X + WM without mouse. Pretty soon I have found that it is not possible at all: X requires mouse, most X applications simply do not have any keyboard shortcuts (e.g. editres or xedit). So I found a spare one. Only to find 15 minutes later that X requires 3-button mouse. And I had only spare 2-button mice.
The thing is that most distros, Ubuntu included, target the group of users to whom it is actually keyboard which is optional. Windows historically targeted gov'ts and thus had to provide the full (keyboard) accessibility out of box: yes, there are people who have disruption of motor skills and can't use mice.
Anyway, I mostly work in shell anyway, I'm over the toying with Ubuntu, and back in the Aptosid.
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
My new laptop has no NUMLOCK key, you insensitive clod!
Yes, seriously. Weird, eh?
But does it have a separate numeric keypad?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Huh, crazy. You learn something new every day. I assume this is specific to Gnome but I could be wrong. In any case, this message was entered with no mouse interaction at all from Ubuntu 11.04.
(BTW, plus seems to be "click".)
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
They also added the desktop to the alt-tab list.
"Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
Yep, that's you.
Used to be, back in the NT4 days, you could get around with just a keyboard quite easily. You can still do it today, but the amount of time you save by using a mouse has increased dramatically. Just think about the web experience today vs 10 years ago. Now some websites have dynamic menus that you have to hover over to select your choices - can't do that with a keyboard. Also, there are many sites that have hundreds of links, would you really want to tab through those when you could just use a mouse to click? And what about tabbed browsing? Now you have to first select the tab you want, before it used to be as simple as Alt - Tab to switch to the browser window that had the site you wanted. Not saying tabbed browsing is a bad thing by any means, but it does make operating with a keyboard a bit more difficult.
Macs really don't work well with a keyboard. You can't even navigate drop-down lists in OS X on a keyboard without changing an obscure system preference. There are a lot of programs written with no way to access some controls by keyboard.
Just type update-rc.d gdm remove (i think its remove don't quote me) and use the shell! I have been using a linux box as my main machine for months without a GUI. Elinks baby! in windows... with choice software and a good memory perhaps
I find that vista/7 broke a whole bunch of keyboard shortcuts. In the past the OS components used by most win32 apps had a standard set of hotkeys. Now, it seems the new guys doing UI work at MS don't even know what the hotkeys should be so they don't implement them when they choose to rewrite the UI interfaces. Plus the whole alt/vs ctrl argument barely works anymore. In the past, a key to operate globally would be alt and key, the local application equivalent would be ctrl and key. So Alt-f4 was close application windows, where ctrl-f4 was close MDI child/dialog box. Ctrl-tab, change tab/mdi child, alt-tab change application. Before MS decided "hiding" the keyboard shortcuts for menu items was a good default, most applications made it a priority to make sure every menu item had a keyboard shortcuts. Now its not unusual to find applications that just fail to provide any at all.
I have my window manager configured so that all window manager functions are mapped to key combinations that contain the "Windows" key. I think about the picture of window on it as standing for "window manager".
AccountKiller
No, most of us cannot be bothered learning a buttload of inane key bindings. Maybe for some repetitive things, but in general, I have more important things to keep in my head.
That's why the mouse should be enabled and working by default.
That doesn't explain why keyboard navigation is turned off. Having it on doesn't require you to learn or remember anything.
But it allows power users used to being able to use arcane keyshort cuts like "tab" and "arrow key" to move between fields on a form or dialog box to discover that they work.
If its off they can't discover it. Except years later as a random tangent on slashdot.
I generally set my theme to "Classic" to avoid that "feature."
shutdown.exe -s -t 00 I just createated a shortcut to this that is alt/ctrl/caps lock. cause,WHO USES CAPS LOCK ANYWAY! ;)
data entry people.
Some regulations in some industries demand sentence in all caps.
and so on.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
That's why you an customize them.. They're not "inane" if you set them up to be whatever key equivalent makes sense for you.. (But of course, they default to something consistent.)
It's one of those awesome IBM keyboards. Found it at a thrift store for $1. But, a company called "Unicomp" bought the patent and still makes them. You can get knockoffs here: http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/
I don't respond to AC's.
When I used to use windows, (I switched to linux shortly before XP came out, and then to mac right after Apple switched to Intel chips,) I used to seldom use the mouse preferring keyboard shortcuts for navigating. With linux I never really got there because each application could implement it's interface so differently. Plus, I was in console the majority of time anyway. With Mac it's a whole different experience. I use the touchpad a lot more then I did in either windows or linux. I also use keyboard shortcuts more then I did in either. People used to say they didn't like only having on button, but I looked it as having one pointer and a whole panel full buttons.
Indeed - I'm just less direct with my points ;) That said, 99.9999% of the Linux installs I've ever done, didn't even come with XWindows. And 99% of the work I do for my job doesn't involve XWindows; so long as I can count an XTerm as not really...err...XWindows. My desktop has a gui, yes, but just because I like to use graphical web browsers sometimes.
I don't think Apple has ever been big on the numpad as arrows concept. While their older keyboards have num lock, the legends for keys on the numpad only have the numbers printed on them, so it's not obvious what's going to happen when you use them with numlock off, unless you're familiar with PC keyboards. It's not surprising to me that they would totally drop num lock at some point.
No it does not. Dell Latitude E6420. The E6520 has its own numeric keyboard.
What I've since noticed is that using Fn+number keys (the alternate numbers, not the primary top row) does not work on my laptop for typing the numbers (though your mouse trick does work).
However, in Office 2010, pretty much everything you can see is keyboard accessible, directly.
And hence, I was not responding to
but rather
because I hardly think that providing keyboard shortcuts for absolutely everything, not to mention some of the other added features, like the advanced paste options that are quickly accessible, actually demonstrates losing interest in the efficiency of the individual. Rather, I think it demonstrates that they care a lot about that, and the reaction against it had very little to do with efficiency, and much more to do with "new is bad".
My MacBook Pro has Num Lock on F6, I can't speak to later models as mine is 4 years old and my wife's, which also has a Num Lock, is 3 years old. I have to keep my function keys enabled for using Win XP under Parallels for work so I have to use the fn key to activate it.
When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.