British Govt Debates Swapping Printers For iPads

Ex news of the world journalists ..... by Chrisq · 2011-09-20 02:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

Ex news of the world journalists ..... prime your friendly hacker, you could be getting the story of the century.

Re:Ex news of the world journalists ..... by Lusa · 2011-09-20 06:42 · Score: 1

My thoughts too, this is not off topic. Like any other computer given to an individual they will be filled with junk very quickly, oh and perhaps some business content. I'm assuming they aren't factoring in the cost of writing secure software so all that tracking information that the device sends back and who knows what from the apps will be very useful to someone. Better yet, how long before one of these is left in a taxi, on a train? Unlike paper these will slowly fill up with all manner of information that is likely not meant to be released.

Politicians Choice by Toe,+The · 2011-09-20 02:22 · Score: 1, Interesting

"with politicians already starting to choose to use tablets rather than bundles of papers in debates."

Research shows that when "debating" a political opponent, hitting them up side the head with an iPad is 55% more effective than hitting them up side the head with a bundle of paper.

Re:Politicians Choice by Adriax · 2011-09-20 02:46 · Score: 1

I question the methodology of that research. Was it just pure number crunching, or did they actually do physical tests? If they did do physical tests, did they use a stack of paper as thick as the ipad, or as thick as the amount of notes the ipad would replace in an average political debate?
With a blunt weapons of equal contact area, it all comes down to the mass of your weapon. Against an equal thickness stack of paper, the ipad would win due to density. But against the ream of paper notes a ipad can easily replace in a debate, paper wins out.
And I bet your research completely left out the papercut factor...

--
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
Re:Politicians Choice by RattFink · 2011-09-20 03:09 · Score: 1

Was it just pure number crunching, or did they actually do physical tests? If they did do physical tests, did they use a stack of paper as thick as the ipad, or as thick as the amount of notes the ipad would replace in an average political debate?
More importantly where can I find videos of the tests?

--
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I say." - Marshall McLuhan
Re:Politicians Choice by discord5 · 2011-09-20 03:10 · Score: 1

If they did do physical tests, did they use a stack of paper as thick as the ipad, or as thick as the amount of notes the ipad would replace in an average political debate? [snip] And I bet your research completely left out the papercut factor...
I propose we use an old fashioned cannon. Load one up with ipads, and another one with paper. It would probably result in far worse cuts than papercuts. However, to complete the process we will need to yell sarcastic and cynical remarks at the test subject. It's all in the name of science, mind you, not some personal grudge.
We'll need a large enough pool of test-subjects, so I suggest we start immediately at the European level and skip the British parliament for now. On second thought, let's just gather all the politicians of the world together and just build a cannon large enough to launch them in orbit.
And yes, it has to be a cannon. Anything less is unacceptable. It IS for science after all.
Re:Politicians Choice by Amouth · 2011-09-20 03:27 · Score: 1

the paper cut factor would be substituted with the glass shatter/cut factor.. sure it doesn't happen as often - but when it happens it does, it makes up for it to keep the average.

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'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
Re:Politicians Choice by AshtangiMan · 2011-09-20 04:24 · Score: 1

There is a balance between mass, and the velocity with which one can swing it. Take golf clubs as an example, the older clubs traditionally used from the tees were made of wood (commonly persimmon) and were fairly heavy. The swing speed with these clubs as compared to the next generation of "metal woods" was much slower, resulting in less energy imparted to the ball. If I was wielding the yellow pages as a weapon, and you had a box of paper (with the standard 20 reams or so) I would have a decided advantage unless you were proportionally stronger such that you could wield the box as easily as I could wield the book. The same analogy exists with baseball bats (wood vs aluminum), but I cannot find a car analogy that works.
Re:Politicians Choice by Toe,+The · 2011-09-20 09:09 · Score: 1

Perhaps all politicians should be "put to the test."
Re:Politicians Choice by corbettw · 2011-09-20 09:24 · Score: 1

Was it just pure number crunching, or did they actually do physical tests?

My understanding is that they outsourced the testing to the Taiwanese Parliament, so I'm sure it was very thorough.

--
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.

another try at the paperless office by khallow · 2011-09-20 02:23 · Score: 2

As I see it, there are two serious problems with this effort. First, sooner or later someone is going to want a hard copy of a document, if only because a software copy can be altered and is impermanent. Second, once you get away from paper, you lose one of the current fundamental obstacles to increasing the extent and power of bureaucracy, namely, that someone has to keep track of all the paperwork and some place has to be found to store it.

I dread to think of the makework that they'll have all those freed government employees doing in order to keep government rolls at current levels of employment and how much extra work it'll mean for anyone having to interact with that bureaucracy.

Re:another try at the paperless office by timeOday · 2011-09-20 02:28 · Score: 2

I think you raised a good but solvable point, which is there needs to be a trusted notary who can digitally sign and date any given document. There are commercial solutions for this, but the govt. would need to select one and oversee it.
Re:another try at the paperless office by Scutter · 2011-09-20 02:28 · Score: 1

I dread to think of the makework that they'll have all those freed government employees doing in order to keep government rolls at current levels of employment and how much extra work it'll mean for anyone having to interact with that bureaucracy.
Someone's going to have to constantly train and re-train the users on how to turn the device on, where their documents are located, how to save, how to tie their shoes...

--

"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
Re:another try at the paperless office by GNious · 2011-09-20 02:36 · Score: 2

once you get away from paper, you lose one of the current fundamental obstacles to increasing the extent and power of bureaucracy, namely, that someone has to keep track of all the paperwork and some place has to be found to store it.
You don't work in government, I think - the stories I hear from the EU, what with them being mostly paperless, are of excessive workloads handling non-paper-based documents.
Re:another try at the paperless office by icebraining · 2011-09-20 02:37 · Score: 1

First, sooner or later someone is going to want a hard copy of a document, if only because a software copy can be altered and is impermanent.

Can you give me an example that can't be trivially solved by digitally signing the document?

--
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Re:another try at the paperless office by Ja'Achan · 2011-09-20 02:47 · Score: 1

People's trust in computers in general after what happened to Sony and DigiNotar?
Re:another try at the paperless office by stranger_to_himself · 2011-09-20 02:48 · Score: 1

I dread to think of the makework that they'll have all those freed government employees doing in order to keep government rolls at current levels of employment and how much extra work it'll mean for anyone having to interact with that bureaucracy.
Someone's going to have to constantly train and re-train the users on how to turn the device on, where their documents are located, how to save, how to tie their shoes...
Yep - and then train them not to play Angry Birds (or check their email etc) when they are supposed to be running the country.
Re:another try at the paperless office by delinear · 2011-09-20 02:53 · Score: 2

The attitudes of the generation that tend to be in power, for one. They won't understand digital signing, many of them come from a legal background, they understand signatures on bits of dead tree, what they know about digital copies they've probably learned from Hollywood, so they think it's all being cracked and streamed directly to Wikileaks as they type. That's a tough mentality to break (hell, I work in a "trendy" digital agency and even here where everyone has tablets or smartphones stuff still gets printed out and scribbled on and passed around on paper).
Sooner or later someone will demand paper copies and then everyone will want paper copies. At that point all you've done is bought everyone an expensive paperweight. I also wonder if they've factored in the cost of replacing lost/stolen/broken equipment, buying peripherals (charge cables, keyboards, cases) and keeping all these things charged at all times (that's one benefit of a big stack of paper, once you've printed it it's no longer consuming power, the iPad does so not only every time you look at the document but even when you're not looking at it). Not to mention the lost man hours now everyone will have all the distractions of the internet with them whenever they go.
Re:another try at the paperless office by chrb · 2011-09-20 02:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

Exactly - they have ignored the TCO of iPads and compared only the initial purchase cost with the assumption that every civil servant with an iPad will never use a printer again! What about support, administration, setup of wifi networks or 3g costs, software and security updates, replacement of broken hardware etc.? That will be outsourced to some big corporation like Accenture, which will easily triple the initial purchase cost; the civil service apparently pays upto 10 times the commercial rate for IT systems.
This is the same civil service that has consistently refused to upgrade from IE6, and which their own MPs report said "The lack of IT skills in government and over-reliance on contracting out is a fundamental problem which has been described as a 'recipe for rip-offs'". Maybe they should fix the existing problems before they embark on a whole new IT rollout? And why iPads or Android tablets? What can a civil servant do with an tablet that they can't do with a cheaper laptop or netbook? And why dismiss the obvious solution to expensive printing costs - buy cheaper paper and ink? Or charge the users for each page printed? I have seen a per-page charge for printer use instigated at an institution and the change in user behaviour was fast and cut costs more than any large IT project every would. When printing is free it will get abused - people were printing out non-work-related manuals, books, home photos, stuff for their friends etc. Charging for printing stopped that overnight.
Re:another try at the paperless office by hedwards · 2011-09-20 02:54 · Score: 1

You don't need a CA, you can do it yourself. Which is fine for situations like this where it's being used internally. Otherwise, it's not really that different than in the US where most people never get to see the original bills that are being debated, just the electronic copy.
Re:another try at the paperless office by BrokenHalo · 2011-09-20 02:57 · Score: 2

Yep - and then train them not to play Angry Birds (or check their email etc) when they are supposed to be running the country.
They don't run the country. Civil servants do that. Politicians just make lots of loud braying noises at each other across a large room with lots of comfy chairs designed for the purpose of catching a nice daytime snooze.
Re:another try at the paperless office by nine-times · 2011-09-20 02:58 · Score: 1

First, sooner or later someone is going to want a hard copy of a document, if only because a software copy can be altered and is impermanent.
This is a slightly silly reason. You're saying that if I print out a document, then it's more safe from being altered, since I can just change the digital copy. But if I print change the digital copy, I can just print out another altered version of the document.
You can keep a local copy of a document. You can even write-protect it and create a digital signature showing that it hasn't been altered. You can do document versioning to allow a document to be altered while preserving previous states.
Re:another try at the paperless office by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-20 03:06 · Score: 1

I'm more curious as to "Why the iPad?"
Is it because they want an excuse to play Angry Birds during work? Why wouldn't another far less expensive eReader w/ Web Browser + pluggin support do the same job if not better?
Why give them a Porsche when a Civic will do the job just as well?
Re:another try at the paperless office by Bert64 · 2011-09-20 03:06 · Score: 2

Hard copy is useful sometimes, but there are MANY occasions when its simply not necessary... Not just in politics, but during daily working most people encounter printed documents that they read *once* and then discard.
I'm sitting in an office right now and can see notepads all over the place full of non-searchable handwritten notes, piles of paperwork that's not moved for months, post-it notes everywhere etc. Paper goes missing, gets damages, blows around in the wind, gets liquid spilled on it etc...
If you have one tablet instead of 200 pieces of paper your far less likely to lose it.
Not to mention the other inefficiencies...
Inefficient storage, all that space wasted...
Difficult to back up - photocopy every page? you probably should, what if your storage place burns down?
The sooner we move to the true paperless office the better.

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Re:another try at the paperless office by i.r.id10t · 2011-09-20 03:09 · Score: 1

Not sure on the Brit side, but I'm pretty sure the Senate and House here in the US would do less damage if all they did was play angry birds...

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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Re:another try at the paperless office by Neil_Brown · 2011-09-20 03:11 · Score: 1

They won't understand digital signing, many of them come from a legal background, they understand signatures on bits of dead tree, what they know about digital copies they've probably learned from Hollywood
I was about to say that that's a bit harsh, but, on the whole, it's - sadly - probably true.
Re:another try at the paperless office by Bert64 · 2011-09-20 03:12 · Score: 1

Charging for printing is fine, so long as you provide a system whereby employees can recover those costs for legitimate work related printing.
This is actually another benefit of home working, people can use their own printer to print things, and then reclaim the expenses for any work related printing they did.
Things to avoid tho...
1, make sure that everything printed is logged... this also makes it harder to steal data via printing it
2, make sure users cant connect direct to the printer, a lot of network printers also have usb ports and users might connect their laptops to these.. also most printers dont implement logging or accounting themselves, so you need to print via a server that does only this system falls apart if users can connect direct to the printer itself.

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Re:another try at the paperless office by Bert64 · 2011-09-20 03:15 · Score: 1

You can scan, edit and reprint a paper copy... You can bleach out the ink and reprint parts of it, you could just transcribe it and make a new modified copy...
A signature on paper is also totally worthless, its trivially easy to copy.
The trouble is, people have trust in paper and no trust in electronic devices, largely thanks to the likes of microsoft creating an impression among the general public that computers are always insecure and unreliable.

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Re:another try at the paperless office by sycodon · 2011-09-20 03:28 · Score: 1

Cheerleader Toss is much more fun.

--
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Re:another try at the paperless office by Compaqt · 2011-09-20 03:29 · Score: 1

Comfy chairs?
The benches in the House of Commons don't look too comfy (though YMMV, as I've never sat on them).

--
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
Re:another try at the paperless office by robthebloke · 2011-09-20 04:20 · Score: 1

but the govt. would need to select one and oversee it.
But that's the entire problem though isn't it?
Re:another try at the paperless office by Captain+Splendid · 2011-09-20 04:22 · Score: 2

but the govt. would need to select one and oversee it.

No no no. Governments are evil, haven't you heard? I can't see why a private company couldn't do this instead.

--
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
Re:another try at the paperless office by Mindcontrolled · 2011-09-20 04:44 · Score: 1

We do work with both at the moment in my office - all data is digitized, but we still keep hard copy of everything (as necessitated by law around here). While the digital archive is nice to quickly call up a document I need, I could only go paperless if I get a screen that can display 5-10 pages side by side, as I do need to compare a lot of technical documentation, especially technical drawings, and nothing beats just filling up your desktop with the printouts, take a step back and stare at it until you get the overview you need.

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Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Re:another try at the paperless office by timeOday · 2011-09-20 06:56 · Score: 1

Well, no, complex IT projects of the sort prone to failure do not simply consist of selecting a provider for a relatively simple service and overseeing it. Complex projects normally consist of integrating many different systems that are initially incompatible, which is what makes them so complex and prone to failure. (Government is by no means unique in struggling with them, either).
Re:another try at the paperless office by orange47 · 2011-09-20 08:11 · Score: 1

I think the biggest issue here is that its much harder to read from eink (let alone LCD) than from paper. That's probably bad for eyes in long run.
Re:another try at the paperless office by RightwingNutjob · 2011-09-20 14:00 · Score: 1

I can lock my paper copy in my safe or stash it in pumpkin patch and come back many years later to read it with more confidence that it is unaltered than if I md5/SHA/whatever a digital file, store it in the cloud, and store the checksum/signature/whatever in a digital form either elsewhere in the cloud or on a usb stick or optical disc with an unknown shelf life and an unknown period of continued compatibility with deployed hardware/software.
Re:another try at the paperless office by chrismcb · 2011-09-20 14:42 · Score: 1

What about support, administration, setup of wifi networks or 3g costs, software and security updates, replacement of broken hardware etc.?

A lot of these problems already exist. Printers break, they need a network, etc.

What can a civil servant do with an tablet that they can't do with a cheaper laptop or netbook?
Carry it around. A tablet is more convenient than a laptop or netbook

And why dismiss the obvious solution to expensive printing costs - buy cheaper paper and ink?
How do you know they haven't already done this?

Or charge the users for each page printed?
While this might reduce printing, it doesn't solve the problem. It just moves the accounting around.
Yes there are problems, and I'm not sure that the iPad (or any other tablet) is the answer (primarily because of notetaking) but it isn't far off. Sure there will still be a need for printers. But if you could reduce that by 75 or 90%...

Why Ipad? by Maquis196 · 2011-09-20 02:25 · Score: 2

Not that I'm suggesting my very poor government tries to build it's own device but surely a tablet sized kindle would be better? Some of those documents must be pretty bug, surely e-ink is the way forward in that regard?

Am I just being naive?

Re:Why Ipad? by dzfoo · 2011-09-20 02:32 · Score: 2

>> Some of those documents must be pretty bug,
Some would say that pretty bugs are the currency of the iPad.
-dZ.

--
Carol vs. Ghost
...Can you save Christmas?
Re:Why Ipad? by Chrisq · 2011-09-20 02:33 · Score: 2

Not that I'm suggesting my very poor government tries to build it's own device but surely a tablet sized kindle would be better? Some of those documents must be pretty bug, surely e-ink is the way forward in that regard?
Am I just being naive?
I'm sure you're right - but the cynic in me says that this is more about "what freebee can I get paid for by the taxpayer" than "what will be useful in doing my job". These iPads will get more use in playing "fart apps" in the house of commons bar and viewing porn in hotels than they ever do in the debating chamber.
Re:Why Ipad? by Maquis196 · 2011-09-20 02:38 · Score: 1

I agree... but aren't the government looking for a paperless office? If you need something that can do more then a kindle-esque device then either have an ipad or maybe just get a laptop?
Re:Why Ipad? by GameboyRMH · 2011-09-20 02:38 · Score: 1

I agree with you. Something like a big Kindle would be best, although maybe with an OLED rather than e-ink screen (color's kinda important). Most of the stuff the iPad has is not needed for this. It's like buying an Accord to get around inside a big warehouse when a bicycle or golf cart would do the job better.

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"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Re:Why Ipad? by itsdapead · 2011-09-20 02:50 · Score: 1

Not that I'm suggesting my very poor government tries to build it's own device but surely a tablet sized kindle would be better?
E-ink still takes too long to refresh (with that bizzare negative after-image effect) to support an iOS/Android style touch interface, without which panning and zooming around large PDFs, following hyperlinks, rapid skimming, annotating PDFs etc. is just too cumbersome.
E-ink rules for bedtime reading (long chunks of plain text in sequence) but for reference use with technical documents and hypertext - especially where it hasn't bee knidle-ized to render as re-flowable text, the slick UI beats the low-eyestrain display.
Plus, you can't use a Kindle to watch the cricket on iPlayer. All the Kindle has is an easter-egg "minesweeper" game (which would certainly lead to "Minister plays sick bombing game in Cabinet meeting - we ask mother of legless war hero what she thinks" headlines in the wonderful British tabloid press).

--
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Re:Why Ipad? by Maquis196 · 2011-09-20 02:55 · Score: 1

You do make some good points. I'm thinking more of a cost and very pure paper to e-ink swap (where you don't really have much in the way of new features, which means the devices are treated like paper rather then fancy moving laptops running powerpoint slides).
I'd see it as a, get a bunch of big kindle devices (which don't exist so it makes my arguement a bit thin) but I imagine the cost would be far less then the ipad. Then you see how that goes. Once everyone is used to having e-paper, then you can think about having advanced e-paper that can do what you suggest.
If youre only replacing paper, you cant really beat e-ink. It would be pretty good as a straight swap.
Re:Why Ipad? by hedwards · 2011-09-20 02:58 · Score: 1

No, but Nook Color can do all the things that reasonably are necessary for work. At about half the cost of an iPad. And I'm sure that when the color version of Kindle is released that it too will be cheaper than an iPad.
Personally, I don't really care one way or the other as I don't own stock in any of the companies and don't pay the taxes that the pay for these devices, but it does strike me as a waste of tax payer dollars when a cheaper option is available.
Re:Why Ipad? by MrMickS · 2011-09-20 02:59 · Score: 1

I agree with you. Something like a big Kindle would be best, although maybe with an OLED rather than e-ink screen (color's kinda important). Most of the stuff the iPad has is not needed for this. It's like buying an Accord to get around inside a big warehouse when a bicycle or golf cart would do the job better.
As the other tablet manufacturers have shown, its not possible to put in the sort of features that you mention and beat the iPad on price. I did think of the Kindle as a better alternative to start with but after looking at the requirements it's pretty clear that there's nothing else on the market that will reliably do the job. Oh, don't ask for the government to build its own tablet, that's just a recipe for disaster, large cost overruns, and them buying an iPad in the end anyway.

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You may think me a tired, old, cynic. I'd have to disagree about the tired bit.
Re:Why Ipad? by BrokenHalo · 2011-09-20 03:11 · Score: 1

Can the Kindle do everything the iPad can? No.
Indeed. It can, however, do everything that a ream of processed cellulose from dead trees can. If I were a politician (perish the thought), I would much prefer to carry around an e-reader than the loads of paper that get shuffled around those offices.

For that matter, I would have appreciated such a device when I was doing my undergrad degree. All of my textbooks (biochemistry, molecular biology and microbiology) tended to be real monsters that were more usable when left at home. However, although time has moved on since then, the technology hasn't (much), and current offerings just don't cut it with publications including many coloured, detailed diagrams.
Re:Why Ipad? by Bert64 · 2011-09-20 03:17 · Score: 1

Initially its a case of "ipads are new and cool, we want them"...
Then you have to find a way to justify the purchase, but the demand comes long before the justification.

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Re:Why Ipad? by Bert64 · 2011-09-20 03:19 · Score: 1

You can get an HP Touchpad for $100US...
Other tablets can be had for not a lot more...
Even a brand new ipad2 is just $400US, 33% more than your thinkpad but its a new device actively supported by its manufacturer including a warranty. Government won't buy used devices. Not sure what the first gen ipad is selling for these days, but i believe apple are still selling them and at a lower price than the 2.

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Re:Why Ipad? by Molt · 2011-09-20 03:20 · Score: 1

When you've been asked an unexpected question and are quickly flicking through a document trying to find the relevant section you really do need a faster update than current generation e-ink will offer, something either the iPad or a bundle of printed notes manages.
I'm not saying e-ink won't reach the point where it'd be suitable, I'm sure it will, but it's not there yet and trying to adapt a technology before it's usable for a given situation is a good way to guarantee that it'll quickly be scrapped and unlikely to be reconsidered in future.

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404 Not Found: No such file or resource as '.sig'
Re:Why Ipad? by delinear · 2011-09-20 03:21 · Score: 1

It also runs counter to their promise to work with more open technologies, to buy everyone one of the more locked down devices. A more traditional OS tablet device would be a better option since it could also replace some of the functions of a traditional computer more easily, so at least they might get some benefit in reducing their desktop footprint.
Re:Why Ipad? by tyger_purr · 2011-09-20 04:32 · Score: 1

Why not a laptop? I bet they have laptops. Ask them why they don't carry them. My guess is size/weight, L-shape needing a table, cant be unplugged for more than a couple of hours and boot time.
Re:Why Ipad? by vlm · 2011-09-20 04:38 · Score: 1

Exactly. Why can't they just use cheap laptops?
Extreme latency, on the order of 10x to 100x, for short tasks. I can unlock my ipod touch, mash the mail app, check for mail, and lock it back up in less than 1/10th the time it takes a big ole laptop to wake up from sleep and probably a 1/100th the time it takes a corporate issued laptop dripping with scripts and scanners to boot.
Same thing for checking calendar, to do list, even very light web browsing (click on radar, look at radar to see how close rain is, all done).
If your time is worth money, you can't afford to use a laptop, even if an ipad cost 10 times as much.
For "sit at the CAD drafting station for 8 continuous hours" sessions, then start and stop latency don't matter. For the rest of the world, there's the ipad, ipod touch, etc.

--
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Re:Why Ipad? by Gilmoure · 2011-09-20 05:07 · Score: 1

don't ask for the government to build its own tablet...
First, they'd have to figure out how to make it leak oil.

--
I drank what? -- Socrates
Re:Why Ipad? by dan828 · 2011-09-20 07:36 · Score: 1

Doesn't exist? Never heard of the Kindle DX?
Re:Why Ipad? by Kittenman · 2011-09-20 09:20 · Score: 1

Give them an Etch-a-sketch each (with apologies to Scott Adams...)

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"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
Re:Why Ipad? by corbettw · 2011-09-20 09:27 · Score: 1

These iPads will get more use in playing "fart apps" in the house of commons bar and viewing porn in hotels than they ever do in the debating chamber.
Give the MPs and their staff some credit. I'm sure they'll play with fart apps and porn while in the debating chamber, too.

--
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Re:Why Ipad? by semi-extrinsic · 2011-09-20 11:03 · Score: 1

No, the answer is more general: Not Windows. My netbook With ArchLinux has me reading mail in 25 seconds from cold boot. Not quite as fast as an ipad, but I catch up if your reply mail is longer than one sentence.

--
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Justifying shinies by Dunbal · 2011-09-20 02:26 · Score: 3, Interesting

And it just HAS to be an iPad. No cheaper, faster, better tablet will do. I am loving all these justifications we're seeing from different people as to why the iPad is the golden ticket they have been waiting for. Problem is no one is going to steal hard copy. People are going to steal iPads. No one will take hard copy home with them unless they absolutely have to (eugh who wants to do government work at home? I work from 9 to 5 only!). People will take iPads home with them, and they will be used by the wife and kids and family friends. Hard copy stays at the office, probably in a file somewhere. iPads will be traveling and vulnerable to being accessed by anyone - they seem to have a tendency to get left at bars.

And the government suddenly realized that it could do all this with $800 iPads but absolutely could NOT do it with $500 laptops. Just, wow. Tell me why we need government again?

--
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.

Re:Justifying shinies by SolemnLord · 2011-09-20 02:42 · Score: 1, Informative

No cheaper, faster, better tablet will do.
Name me one cheaper, faster, better tablet.
Heck, name me that has two of those qualities.
Re:Justifying shinies by fafaforza · 2011-09-20 02:59 · Score: 1

Which ones specifically that you've seen that aren't able to open PDFs?
Re:Justifying shinies by fafaforza · 2011-09-20 03:00 · Score: 1

So the government's first priority is their comfort, and not spending their tax payers' money effectively? Then they'll cry they need to tax the rich.
Re:Justifying shinies by hedwards · 2011-09-20 03:01 · Score: 1

They're looking for a way of replacing a stack of documents with electronic copies. The iPad is way more powerful than is needed and probably would increase the likelihood of people wasting time playing angry birds. Nook Color would fill that need without too much trouble at about half the price of the iPad. And I'm sure there are other options that are less expensive, yet serve the purpose, as well.
Re:Justifying shinies by hedwards · 2011-09-20 03:02 · Score: 1

Yes, they're $500 and you can get a Thinkpad for $500 or two Nooks if that's you're thing.
Re:Justifying shinies by b0bby · 2011-09-20 03:09 · Score: 5, Informative

Despite the summary being ipad only, the actual IT guy looking into this in the article is very clear that it's tablets in general.
Re:Justifying shinies by Jmc23 · 2011-09-20 03:11 · Score: 1

and can you hold any of those like paper? Does nobody read around here anymore? Have you ever worked in a government office? Do you have any clue how much paper, toner, printers, maintenance, shredders, shredding services, disposal services, physical space, all of that costs?

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Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Re:Justifying shinies by m50d · 2011-09-20 03:15 · Score: 1

Eee pad transformer. Better is subjective (it's better for me, but someone else might like iOS more, or think thinner and lighter is the most important thing), but cheaper and faster are objectively true.

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I am trolling
Re:Justifying shinies by ZankerH · 2011-09-20 03:17 · Score: 1

I've seen cheaper slabs that are useless, more expensive slabs that are also useless, and the Samsung Galaxy Pad which is the same price and about the same in terms of performance.
Samaung's tablet lines are called Tab, as in Samsung Galaxy Tab.
Re:Justifying shinies by drinkypoo · 2011-09-20 03:18 · Score: 1

You also have to be able to flip pages about as quick as you can flip a real one, and oh, actually flip enough pages to get work done. Sure, there's a raft of sub-$100 tablets out there, but none of them do either of these things.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Justifying shinies by LateArthurDent · 2011-09-20 03:21 · Score: 1

and can you hold any of those like paper? Does nobody read around here anymore?
Apparently not, since he said, 'or two Nooks' if that's you're [sic] thing.'
Well, either you don't read or you don't know what a nook is. If that's the case, you should have looked it up before pouncing on him, though.
Not to mention the whole android tablet option...
Re:Justifying shinies by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-20 03:24 · Score: 1

Asus eeePad transformer.
Only $400 (cheaper)
More RAM (faster). The iPad does have a better GPU but it is of no use to government employees unless you want them gaming during work hours.
Has an optional keyboard dock, a micro SD card slot, and a larger screen resolution, can side-load apps, doesn't need iTunes to connect to PC (better)
Samsung Galaxy Tab 8.9
$469 (a bit cheaper)
More RAM (faster).
Thinner, lighter, larger screen resolution, can side-load apps, doesn't need iTunes to connect to PC (better)
Now you might not agree with all this (one can still argue that the iPad is better), but by assuming that no other tablet exists or even deserve to be considered you are just being an iDiot.
Re:Justifying shinies by Bert64 · 2011-09-20 03:28 · Score: 1

HP touchpad is cheaper, and technically faster (1.2ghz dual core vs 1ghz dual core, and twice the ram).
Motorola Xoom is cheaper, has a 1ghz dualcore like the ipad2 but has a higher resolution screen, more ram and more storage.
"better" is totally subjective depending on your requirements, for geeks wanting to hack with linux these tablets are better, for other users perhaps not.

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Re:Justifying shinies by Dunbal · 2011-09-20 03:38 · Score: 1

xoom oh wait no it has to be apple

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Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Re:Justifying shinies by Jmc23 · 2011-09-20 03:39 · Score: 1

Nah, just getting lazy. ereaders still suck for pdf's or fast display, no way i'd want to look up legislation or court decisions on one of those.
As for android sure, not like I like programming in Objective C anyways. I just hink everybody here is smart enough to replace ipad with any tablet. Maybe they don't know about government tender processes? The reason ipads are getting picked is because nobody else is offering to supply, simple as that. Let's face it Apple knows how to push their product and no android manufacturer has really shown any ability or know-how in that department. I'm almost 100% sure the idea never even occured to the android camp. Just like it never occurs to most linux distributors. I remember berating my supervisors as to why we're spending millions on microsoft licences when we could just go opensource, the answer, nobody but in a bid to supply support except for microsoft.

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Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Re:Justifying shinies by Sirusjr · 2011-09-20 03:43 · Score: 1

Yes, but the problem with e-readers like Kindle and Nook is that they have smaller screens that can't easily display PDFs or retain the formatting of word documents. Try reading a PDF on the regular kindle and you'll see how terribly clunky it is. Try sending any document with special formatting to a regular size kindle and watch as the formatting is all completely lost in the conversion.
The better solution would be to hand out Kindle DXs to everyone because of the larger size and ability to display the full page of a PDF or any other document. It would also be more business oriented because it doesn't also double as a full computer with games and other applications.
Re:Justifying shinies by LateArthurDent · 2011-09-20 03:59 · Score: 1

I remember berating my supervisors as to why we're spending millions on microsoft licences when we could just go opensource, the answer, nobody but in a bid to supply support except for microsoft.
Surprising to say the least, since that's Red Hat's and other distros entire business model. That said, I don't doubt Microsoft and Apple are just better at it. Fair enough points.
Re:Justifying shinies by Overzeetop · 2011-09-20 04:26 · Score: 1

Now, if only they weren't discontinued. Oh, right - then they'd be the same price as an iPad.

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Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Re:Justifying shinies by fafaforza · 2011-09-20 04:46 · Score: 1

Hmm, never knew Kool Aid frothed. Might be because I don't drink it.
Re:Justifying shinies by Solandri · 2011-09-20 05:24 · Score: 1

For this purpose, just about anything would be better than the iPad. Apple doesn't let you side-load apps; you have to go through their App Store. So if the government wants to make some custom app for viewing/filling out a form, they can't do it themselves. They have to send it through the App Store. That's the drawback of Apple's walled garden approach - you don't really own the device, and you're not free to do whatever you want with it.
Re:Justifying shinies by quacking+duck · 2011-09-20 05:25 · Score: 1

Blackberry Playbook. Seriously.
We evaluated one a month after its release. Fully updated system, but the built-in Adobe reader was unable to open and reliably render or scroll two basic, Acrobat-generated PDFs (less than 500kB, text with some images, no fancy stuff). No background apps were running to slow things down.
My 2-year old underpowered iPhone opened them just fine.
Re:Justifying shinies by gauauu · 2011-09-20 05:49 · Score: 2

For this purpose, just about anything would be better than the iPad. Apple doesn't let you side-load apps; you have to go through their App Store. So if the government wants to make some custom app for viewing/filling out a form, they can't do it themselves. They have to send it through the App Store. That's the drawback of Apple's walled garden approach - you don't really own the device, and you're not free to do whatever you want with it.
No, Apple has an enterprise developer program where (for a hefty fee and a big formal agreement) you can develop whatever you want and deploy it directly to your enterprise-owned devices. No need to go through the app store. (I'm not saying that makes up for the fact that can't generally side-load apps, which is the main reason I avoid iOS devices, but in this case, your argument is wrong).
Re:Justifying shinies by sbjornda · 2011-09-20 06:27 · Score: 1

Blackberry Playbook. Seriously. We evaluated one a month after its release. Fully updated system, but the built-in Adobe reader was unable to open and reliably render or scroll two basic, Acrobat-generated PDFs (less than 500kB, text with some images, no fancy stuff). No background apps were running to slow things down.

It's working OK now.
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.nosig
Re:Justifying shinies by hedwards · 2011-09-20 07:03 · Score: 1

LOL, you do realize that the Nook color is basically just an Android tablet, right? And that one can root it and get rid of pretty much all the B&N stuff. In fact they make it easy to do.
As for PDFs, they work just fine on ebooks, assuming that they've been properly created. You're not going to find scanned documents in PDF form typically that deal well with changes of resolution or that will reflow the text to deal with it.
Re:Justifying shinies by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-20 07:08 · Score: 1

1. iPads start at $500, not $800.
2. Tablets have almost the same form factor as paper, while laptops do not.
3. Where are these "faster, cheaper" tablets you speak of?
HP Touchpad, before going on clearance, was $499
Motorola XOOM: $499
RIM Playbook: $499 (& only a 7" screen)
Galaxy Tab 10.1: $499
Re:Justifying shinies by quacking+duck · 2011-09-20 07:13 · Score: 1

It might be, but as we returned the evaluation unit after the 1-week rental expired, I can't verify that with the PDFs we used.
First impressions were key, and if the thing can't even open simple PDFs a month after the system's release, their "amateur hour is over" ad slogan really bit them in the ass.
Not to mention lack of basic mail, calendar and contacts apps for users without Blackberries, told us they didn't want any business from small companies without existing Blackberries. We obliged.
Re:Justifying shinies by Jmc23 · 2011-09-20 07:37 · Score: 1

perhaps i should have finished the whole sentence for those who couldn't see it coming. Justwaiting for a nook colour comment where the poster points out that the nook color isn't eInk and euns android and can be hacked. Of course the person who who would post that would also miss the fact that governments aren't going to hack a device to do that.
How's it feel coming to school naked?

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Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Re:Justifying shinies by stephanruby · 2011-09-20 09:45 · Score: 1

This is just what we need, more politicians/civil servants browsing web sites, doing email, or playing games during meetings.
Re:Justifying shinies by hedwards · 2011-09-20 11:10 · Score: 1

Which goes to show how little you know. It's a Nook, you don't hack it, B&N let's you load alternate firmware from a MicroSD card. And at any rate for the purposes of what the government is talking about, you wouldn't even have to do that in order to just replace documents. Also, you can install apps to it, without any modifications of the hardware.
So, how's it feel being one upped by somebody that actually knows something about the topic?
Re:Justifying shinies by Jmc23 · 2011-09-20 11:22 · Score: 1

@that's a hack. Gov'ts pay for supported systems.

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Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Re:Justifying shinies by jo_ham · 2011-09-20 15:18 · Score: 1

A cheaper, faster, better tablet (than the iPad 2) would be great. Can you point one out to me?
Re:Justifying shinies by jo_ham · 2011-09-20 15:23 · Score: 1

Wow, didn't we go through this when the whole "NFL thinking of replacing paper with iPads for playbooks" story came up?
As an enterprise client you can deploy whatever you like to the iPads under your umbrella (ie, all of your employees), as well as using the App Store.
This is well known information, but this tired, factually incorrect argument always comes up. "They'll have to use the app store! They're not free!" Perhaps a little research might help to stop you looking silly with easily debunked information.

Stupid, again by gweihir · 2011-09-20 02:27 · Score: 2

You need both, online access _and_ paper copies. As soon as you want to mark and highlight, paper beats all other options by a large margin. iPads should be regarded as low-reliability, high-maintenance, read-only and possible insecure alternative for document access.

This is the stupid idea of somebody that did not even try to understand the issue. The paperless office is a myth.

--
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Re:Stupid, again by Anrego · 2011-09-20 02:36 · Score: 1

These are the issues I hit up against when trying to envision a paperless office.
I agree, there are some things that paper just plain does better. Marking up a document, taking quick notes at a meeting (I've yet to see something that beats a simple notepad for free-form note taking), objective evidence (digital files can be tampered and altered.. and while I suspect there are solutions, paper with someones signature on it still means a lot).
I think if we are ever going to get to a paperless office, it won't only be by making technology do the things we can do so well with paper, but it will be by re-thinking how we do things such that we no longer need the functionality paper provided.
How we actually do this is anyones guess.
Re:Stupid, again by Neil_Brown · 2011-09-20 03:09 · Score: 1

Posted again, after logging in...

As soon as you want to mark and highlight, paper beats all other options by a large margin.
I'd be less certain - I mark up and highlight a considerable volume of documents on a weekly basis (personal study/interest, as well as for my job), and have switched to using an iPad running iAnnotate PDF. This was my use case for buying the iPad, along with reading books - for me, it has considerable advantage overall over paper, in that I can carry a lot of information with me without lugging box files around, that the information is backed up, and the information (including annotations and the like) are searchable both on the iPad, and when I'm using my laptop.
Previously, I'd had the advantage of digital over boxes of paper through a Sony eReader, but, whilst this was great for reading a novel, once one got used to the delayed page turn, it was not good for anything which required an annotation. Perhaps a Kindle would suit my needs, but I find the touchscreen of the iPad very easy to use. The two main problems are (a) it was expensive (although now a historic problem, since I bought it), and (b) a backlit screen is not ideal - I could read for longer from my eReader than I can through the iPad.
Overall, though, I find it a great tool for marking up and annotating - half way through studying my masters on my spare time, wherever I might be, without relying on paper...
Re:Stupid, again by BrokenHalo · 2011-09-20 03:20 · Score: 1

I agree, there are some things that paper just plain does better.
However, most paper is still wasted. Back in the '70s and '80s I worked at a number of so-called "paperless" sites where the ops generated several ton[ne]s of paper output every working day. Almost none of this was ever even read, let alone kept, so why produce it?
Re:Stupid, again by Bert64 · 2011-09-20 03:36 · Score: 1

Marking up is cumbersome on a computer with mouse/keyboard, but a tablet can make this a lot more paper-like, especially if you use a stylus (using a finger feels odd)...
Paper can be tampered with just as easily as digital copies, and a hand written signature is an utterly ridiculous thing to use as a judge of authenticity... On the other hand digital files can be digitally signed, which is MUCH harder to tamper with.
But on the subject of digital signatures you do have a point, people need to rethink things and realise that a digital signature is a far more secure method of determining the legitimacy of a document than a random mark that anyone can make with a pen.

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Re:Stupid, again by camperdave · 2011-09-20 04:06 · Score: 1

Excuse my ignorance, but can't you just grab a stylus and write on an ipad the same way you would write on a piece of paper? Don't tablets all have a free-form note taking app?

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When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Re:Stupid, again by Anrego · 2011-09-20 04:20 · Score: 1

Sounds great in theory, but I've never seen it actually work out. I think it's the tactile feedback you get with pencil and paper .. but I've never been able to quickly make "normal sized" notes on any kind of tablet. Maybe it's a skill thing more than a technology thing. I see kids thumb-typing faster than I can type on a keyboard.. maybe with practice the current generation will be able to make a stylus and tablet do what I can do with paper through sheer practice.
Re:Stupid, again by Ihmhi · 2011-09-20 05:34 · Score: 2

I agree, there are some things that paper just plain does better. Marking up a document, taking quick notes at a meeting (I've yet to see something that beats a simple notepad for free-form note taking), objective evidence (digital files can be tampered and altered.. and while I suspect there are solutions, paper with someones signature on it still means a lot).
I fixed a friend's convertible Toshiba tablet 4 or so years ago. (Toshibas are garbage IMO.) The tablet had a stylus, and while the handwriting recognition was iffy it was about as close to paper as you could get while writing. One of the options was a "Highlight" mode that let you highlight text on the screen (or on a document) just like - get this - a highlighter.
This was all on Windows XP Tablet edition, which was pretty half-assed as far as tablet software goes and yet they got this right. How is it impossible in this day and age to have a tablet that can handle touch + stylus that doesn't cost a boatload of money?

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Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Re:Stupid, again by Ihmhi · 2011-09-22 12:40 · Score: 1

Sadly a lot of the convertible tablets were very short on RAM. The aforementioned Toshiba shipped with 512 megs. Keep in mind that the rule of thumb is that XP needs 2 gigs to run comfortably, and the tablet stuff should ideally have another gig or so of RAM. One of the issues, RAM and processor-wise, was that Microsoft Journal (or whatever their tablet-y program was called) appeared to use vector graphics and as such was very processor and RAM intensive. Processor intensive + RAM intensive + not enough RAM = overheating.

--
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)

Nice by Anrego · 2011-09-20 02:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

if he got rid of all of a major government department's printers.

That's the only way to get to the "paperless office" ... remove the ability to use paper.

Keep any around, and it won't work. Lots of people with kick and scream and need to be drug into this. There are lots of things tablets and the like suck at that paper is good at. To move forward we have to find alternatives to those things that do work well in a paperless environment, but there are lots of people (I used to be one of them) who will decry that "your tablet sucks at " and use it as a reason to use paper.

Re:Nice by Anrego · 2011-09-20 02:39 · Score: 1

Readers choice.
Pick whichever makes you feel happier inside, and go with it.
Have a great life!
Re:Nice by syousef · 2011-09-20 02:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

if he got rid of all of a major government department's printers.
That's the only way to get to the "paperless office" ... remove the ability to use paper.
Keep any around, and it won't work. Lots of people with kick and scream and need to be drug into this. There are lots of things tablets and the like suck at that paper is good at. To move forward we have to find alternatives to those things that do work well in a paperless environment, but there are lots of people (I used to be one of them) who will decry that "your tablet sucks at " and use it as a reason to use paper.
It's a valid concern. Tablets and PCs are still horrible and inefficient to use. Even simple applications like reading a PDF book. Why the FUCK is it that in 2011 we still don't have user bookmarks as a standard feature in Adobe reader? That's just one simple example. The way to fix things is to actually address these issues BEFORE going paperless. That starts with software that isn't BRAINDEAD, buggy and cumbersome to use. If you take away the paper and force people to use the existing substandard apps that do not meet their needs their efficiency will just tank. People are right to keep hold of paper at the moment.

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These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Re:Nice by nine-times · 2011-09-20 03:04 · Score: 1

The single biggest problem with going paperless: It's way to easy and convenient to scribble on paper. Yes, many e-readers have some kind of ability to take notes, where you can select some text and add a carefully typed comment. Still, nothing beats a pen and paper for free-form note taking. I haven't seen a tablet that can handle crossing stuff out, scribbling notes in the margins, and drawing little diagrams in as simple and intuitive way as good ol' pen and paper.
Re:Nice by BrokenHalo · 2011-09-20 03:27 · Score: 1

That's the only way to get to the "paperless office" ... remove the ability to use paper.
Or better still, get people to use it properly. Like, for instance anything that needs to be on paper should be written by hand. A purist might insist on the use of a quill pen, but a fountain-pen will do. That should be enough to sort out what actually needs to be committed to such a method of storage.
Re:Nice by BrokenHalo · 2011-09-20 03:30 · Score: 1

Why the FUCK is it that in 2011 we still don't have user bookmarks as a standard feature in Adobe reader?
Because, of course, they want you to buy their non-free version to do that.
Re:Nice by Anrego · 2011-09-20 03:34 · Score: 1

Totally agree (even said it in some other post) .. for quick free-form note taking, especially when say someone drops by your desk and starts spouting information at you, nothing has even approached paper in utility or speed.
On the topic of note taking, real-estate is another big issue. When I am working on a complex design, I like to spread papers out over a huge table surface ... even with 3 monitors nothing beats having a huge surface to spread your work (and thoughts) out over.
Re:Nice by Bert64 · 2011-09-20 03:43 · Score: 1

Why are you using adobe reader?
PDF is an open standard, there are lots of PDF readers out there... I find it utterly ridiculous how many people seem to stick with the worst software available for this particular task.
The way to fix it is to simply abandon software that doesn't do what you need, and find a replacement that does. Open standards make this easy.

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Re:Nice by nine-times · 2011-09-20 03:55 · Score: 1

I like to spread papers out over a huge table surface
Also how trivial it is to resort pages arbitrarily. But yes, the simple ability to set pages side-by-side is something that a tablet can't easily match.
Re:Nice by Anrego · 2011-09-20 04:01 · Score: 1

I find when working on a complex design project, being able to see more information at once is important. I'll often have hand-drawn diagrams which span over multiple sheets .. and while once it's finished I can plug it into the computer and it's plenty usable, I find scrolling around rapidly trying to see the big picture just doesn't work for me.
At the very least, as you said, the ability to compare two sheets is useful.
Re:Nice by syousef · 2011-09-20 11:42 · Score: 1

Why are you using adobe reader?
PDF is an open standard, there are lots of PDF readers out there... I find it utterly ridiculous how many people seem to stick with the worst software available for this particular task.
The way to fix it is to simply abandon software that doesn't do what you need, and find a replacement that does. Open standards make this easy.
Why? Because Adobe is still the standard and still the only one that hasn't given me formating issues and can open every PDF. I've got Sumatra, PDFXChanger and Foxit installed and I rarely if ever use them because each has it's own quirks and compatibility issues. Also bear in mind that I'm very fortunate to be able to choose what software I run at work. Increasingly people don't get those choices as employers try to lock down security. That is imminent where I work. Sure I could find a different job and put my family's income at risk, but there's no guarantee whereever I move that it would be different.

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These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Re:Nice by syousef · 2011-09-20 14:22 · Score: 1

Why the FUCK is it that in 2011 we still don't have user bookmarks as a standard feature in Adobe reader?
Because, of course, they want you to buy their non-free version to do that.
NOBODY uses Adobe Acrobat as a viewer just sot hey can add bookmarks. That is the height of insanity. I don't want to modify the PDF. I want a bookmark file stored externally that allows me to go back to a particular page when I reopen without writing it down or putting it in a text file and I want multiple of these bookmarks to jump between if I want to refer back.. (There is a remember last location option somewhere I believe, but it isn't as convenient as multiple bookmarks).
This is basic functionality, not an optional extra, if you want to go paperless.

--
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Re:Nice by BrokenHalo · 2011-09-21 03:29 · Score: 1

NOBODY uses Adobe Acrobat as a viewer just sot hey can add bookmarks.
I don't disagree. However, I'm sure Adobe are happy enough to trade on this.

Incidentally, I have come across an absurd number of (l)users who have allowed themselves to be persuaded that Acrobat is a better tool for editing a document than the word processing package they originally used to produce it. I have lost track of the amount of time I have spent trying to make the point that Acrobat is (debatably) an excellent tool for rendering finished documents, but their chosen office package is a much more appropriate means of editing the content. I usually get the argument that "I was told Acrobat is what I needed, and I finally managed to persuade my boss...". It doesn't usually go down very well to tell them that they've sold their boss a crock of shit.

Free? by johnny+cashed · 2011-09-20 02:29 · Score: 2

The British government is examining whether it could save money by getting rid of its printers and giving civil servants free iPads instead.

You keep using that word, I don't think you understand what it means. The sentence would have worked fine without it.

I fail to see where a government issued iPad is free. The article didn't use that word.

.replace("iPad","tablet device"); by Smigh · 2011-09-20 02:31 · Score: 2

Maybe they should decide on the form factor before deciding on the manufacturer. It's like saying, "Hey, our staff could use some Toyota Yaris! It would cut down the time they spend using the bus!"

Re:.replace("iPad","tablet device"); by nine-times · 2011-09-20 03:14 · Score: 2

Yes, but honestly, they're going to go for iPads. Unless they have a need that requires something else, it's almost silly not to. They cost for the feature set (including "thin" and "lightweight" as features) is unbeaten, and they have, according to some estimates, over 70% of the market. iOS devices are dominant, and there isn't a better tablet with more widespread support available.
Getting an Android tablet right now is kind of like getting a Macintosh in 2001. Either you're doing it because you have a niche need, or you're not doing it for practical concerns.
Re:.replace("iPad","tablet device"); by drinkypoo · 2011-09-20 03:22 · Score: 1

There are numerous practical concerns with the iOS "software ecosystem" (ugh) that are addressed with going to Android. I shouldn't even have to make a list any more, because we've argued it into oblivion here already.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:.replace("iPad","tablet device"); by jo_ham · 2011-09-20 15:31 · Score: 1

Maybe you should RTFA before commenting. That is exactly what is said. The article specifies "tablets - including Android, iPad and Windows 8 tablets" not just iPads, from the person making the suggestion.
Re:.replace("iPad","tablet device"); by jo_ham · 2011-09-20 15:47 · Score: 1

Like what?
As an enterprise client the "walled garden" does not apply - they can deploy whatever they like to their iPads, as well as get the benefit of all the software in the App Store.

Re:Then by joaommp · 2011-09-20 02:32 · Score: 1

in portuguese courts, they would pay themselves in 2 months.

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Onda Technology Institute

side by side by justleavealonemmmkay · 2011-09-20 02:37 · Score: 1

You'll need to give them at least two tables, so that they can put at least two documents side by side.

Re:side by side by Anrego · 2011-09-20 02:45 · Score: 1

This is probably one of the main reasons I still use paper/print stuff under certain circumstances.
Even with 3 monitors, nothing beats a huge table to shuffle papers around on and mark up when trying to design something complicated.

Rubbish idea by L4t3r4lu5 · 2011-09-20 02:38 · Score: 1

The first guy to chuck his iPad at the opposition when he would usually have been waving his papers, going "RARRaarararrrrarararararar", will demonstrate the idiocy of the idea.

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eBay ahoy! by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-20 02:39 · Score: 4, Funny

Awesome :-) I look forward to a steady stream of cheap iPads appearing on eBay, ideally loaded with sensitive documents ...

Re:iPad? by jonbryce · 2011-09-20 02:43 · Score: 3, Funny

Which one?

Samsung - Same price
Blackberry Playbook - Same price and it doesn't do email
LG - More expensive
Some crappy Chinese thing with a resistive screen

As a former Civil Servant in the DWP... by Nick+Ives · 2011-09-20 02:43 · Score: 1, Informative

I find it doubtful that the cost of printers is £400 (the price of a basic 16GB WiFi model) over 18 months per member of staff.

Also, handing out tablets poses a massive information security risk, They're already quite picky about who they give a laptop to, and for good reason!

Then again, the article does seem to be talking about DCLG. That's a comparatively small department; most people would consider a "major government department" to be something like DWP, HMRC or the Home Office. DCLG only has a few offices. Compare that to DWP where you've got hundreds of offices with a hundred thousand employees and it's easy to see how handing out iPads is less of a challenge for them.

This seems more like that prick Pickles trying to grab another headline.

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Nick

Re:As a former Civil Servant in the DWP... by TemporalBeing · 2011-09-20 05:46 · Score: 1

Why it is just 22 per month? Welcome to the world of contracted out office equipment. They probably dont *own* the printers but lease them. Those leases probably are dependent on the number of users using them. 22 per month is probably way high. But that is how they crunch the numbers...
Plus we are not talking your cheapo home printer. Talking heavy duty ones that cost 1-3k plus, EACH, plus any accessories (double sided printing, non standard print sizes, etc), and carts to print on them.
Sounds more like someone wanting to justify getting an iPad but 'hey if I can somehow get work to get me one'... Sounds more like a cheap guy who wants one but just doesnt want to pay for it himself.
You forgot one other aspect - they are likely laser printers, and there are probably a lot of color laser printers in the mix. All-in-all, they are renting the printer itself, plus filling it with cartridges and paper. And don't forget how much paper gov't uses - a lot.

So they may break even on the rentals (because they'll probably rent the iPads too, just like they probably do for their laptops and desktops), but save on the ink/toner cartridges and paper.

--
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
Re:As a former Civil Servant in the DWP... by Nick+Ives · 2011-09-20 10:22 · Score: 1

In all my time in the department I never heard of anyone having their own colour laser printer. The few occasions I needed colour prints I emailed our bulk reprographics section with the documents and job specification.

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Nick
Re:As a former Civil Servant in the DWP... by jo_ham · 2011-09-20 15:49 · Score: 1

So once you buy a printer, the toner and paper are free for 18 months?
Re:As a former Civil Servant in the DWP... by Bert64 · 2011-09-20 21:38 · Score: 1

How does a tablet pose really more risk than paper?
Assuming you have to give the content to people in one form or another, they will have the same content either on an ipad, on a laptop or printed on paper in their briefcase...
The laptop might be encrypted...
The tablet might be encrypted...
The paper almost certainly wont be.
The laptop or tablet, even if not encrypted requires some level of technical knowledge to extract the data (bypass passwords etc)...
The paper requires someone who isn't blind to read it.
If stolen, a laptop or tablet has monetary value as an electronic device, and is likely to get wiped and resold.
Paper has no monetary value other than the data on it.
What are you more likely to lose (or notice if it goes missing):
Your one and only ipad?
A small number of papers from a stack of thousands?

--
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Re:As a former Civil Servant in the DWP... by Nick+Ives · 2011-09-21 10:34 · Score: 1

The tablet will have access to DOI. If you can gain access to the DOI network then it should be fairly easy for someone with malicious intent to gain access to something important like CIS.
A simple piece of paper generally can't be used to gain access to the entire social security database. That's why the department is generally quite paranoid about who it issues laptops to.

--
Nick

Job loss. by LWATCDR · 2011-09-20 02:44 · Score: 2

Think of the jobs.
First you have the people that make the paper. Then you have the people that sell and fix the printers, then you have the people that make and sell the ink, then you have the people that do the print runs, then you have the people that deliver the printout, then you have the people that collect the print outs, and then you have the paper recycling.
It will never fly. They will just add iPads as an option and still do all the printing.
If you don't believe me let me just put this in as proof.
Nimrod AEW, Nimrod MRA4, and A400m
Sir Humphrey: You see minister if we provide iPads and the printed records we shall have all the advantages of portability and the accountability of a paper audit.
PM: Do we want accountability?
Sir Humphrey: We like to say so.
PM: So we get all the advantages of increased efficiency with no job loss?
Sir Humphrey: Precisely Minister and paper is cheap just a few pennies a sheet and you can not put a price on accountability.
PM: Well that sound prefect.
Sir Humphrey: Yes Prime Minister.
Bernard: Sir Humphrey we spend three hundred million Euros a year on printing, supplies, paper, and personal. That does to be lot more than mere pennies.
Sir Humphrey: I never said how many pennies where in a mere.

--
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.

Re:Job loss. by discord5 · 2011-09-20 03:14 · Score: 1

Think of the jobs.
And thus a new generation of "Apple Genius" salesmen was born.
Re:Job loss. by LWATCDR · 2011-09-20 03:44 · Score: 1

They do and they don't sort how they use metric.

--
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.

Why an iPad? by 91degrees · 2011-09-20 02:45 · Score: 1

Because they're cooler?

Wouldn't a Kindle do the same job, cost less, and have better battery life?

Nicely introduced inflamatory bias there by nedlohs · 2011-09-20 02:46 · Score: 1

The British government is examining whether it could save money by getting rid of its printers and giving civil servants free iPads instead

And yet you didn't say they where "given" "free" printers, or "given" "free" paper, or "given" "free" ink/toner. Or chairs, or desks, or heating.

Now sure you can argue that choosing the iPad might be just picking the most trendy option rather than the best (in terms of costs and benefits). But instead you decided to inject the word "free" to try and bias the reader from the start. I assume you are paying the share of the building rent that your desk space/office space/whatever uses and your portion of the electricity bill too, rather then being "given" it for "free".

Seems an actual worthwhile use of tablets to me. It's almost all viewing, with almost no editing. The form factor is similar to paper so the existing setup won't need changing. It also makes for much better practical jokes by updating people's documents on the fly.

Re:Nicely introduced inflamatory bias there by jo_ham · 2011-09-20 15:54 · Score: 1

It's worse than that - the guy in charge of putting forth these ideas doesn't limit to the iPad, he specifically mentions Android, iPad and Windows 8 tablets and that all avenues are being examined to work out the costs.
Of course "UK government wants to give civil servants free iPads!" is a much more sensational headline.

Supporting iPads will be costly by brainzach · 2011-09-20 02:52 · Score: 1

A task as simple as getting a signature or writing notes on a document and giving it to a colleague becomes a complicated endeavor. Then you have to coordinate with other paper offices somehow to make your business operations smooth.

Someone has to support all these complicated tasks and it will costs a lot more money than the initial $400 purchase.

Politicians using them? by Jmc23 · 2011-09-20 02:54 · Score: 1

Well of course! Instead of mindlessly shuffling papers to look like their busy they can flick at the screen to appear as if shuffling papers while secretly playing angry birds!

Btw, I think it's a good idea. When I worked for the government I would have loved to have gotten rid of the bookcase of legislation, precedence, meeting minutes, errata, training documents, etc... that took up not only most of my workspace but for every single person working there as well. Having to pay for less office space and always having the latest legislation as well as operating procedures on hand would easily pay for itself regardless of the printers. As long as it's easily searchable and annotable it'd be fine.

--
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.

Anything but iPads - no closed systems by Shivetya · 2011-09-20 02:56 · Score: 1

I do not think its a great idea for any government to buy into any closed system when alternatives exist. Yes the Android tablets are in their infancy but they can get better, especially when a need gives them purpose.

--
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.

Savings in 18 months by DrXym · 2011-09-20 02:58 · Score: 1

By that logic, he should be decking out staff with tablets costing half the price and he'll achieve the savings in 9 months. And the savings rack up since they're cheaper to replace when they're invariably stolen, broken, lost, worn out.

Of course iPads are The Thing to get and I'm sure MPs or civil servants want to be seen dead with a functionally equivalent, cheaper, more open tablet running a rival OS.

iPad life span by C_Kode · 2011-09-20 02:58 · Score: 1

18 months? What is an iPad's average life span? I would think the *average* wouldn't be much more than 2 years.

Our printers usually last 4+. Also to note, there are a lot less printers to have fixed, then iPads in that case.

You can also write on things you print. Not exactly the case with iPad documents.

I find this an extremely flawed argument.

Re:iPad life span by mehrotra.akash · 2011-09-20 03:26 · Score: 1

Never used an iPad, but in my college, Cheap Thinkpads last 5+ years.
(My own one is 3+ years old)
Note that this is in a college environment.
iPads being a premium product and being used in an office environment should last longer I would guess

It could work... by __aagmrb7289 · 2011-09-20 03:01 · Score: 1

But it depends on how the guy is calculating costs. Is he saying that if zero paper printouts were created, the investment would pay off in less than 18 months? If so, then he is not doing this correctly. If he is saying that it will reduce paper printouts by something like 50% (and he'd need a solid basis for the figure), then perhaps this is a good idea. A lot of people here on Slashdot are annoyed that they are looking at iPads - and I agree - what a waste of money, etc. On the other hand, the article isn't clear if that is their only consideration - must it be an iPad? It seems like they actually mean to be saying "tablet computer" (from the article) - but iPad now means "tablet computer" for a lot of people, unfortunately. Anyway, as long as they are calculating their return realistically, I think this would be pretty great.

Re:Then by Garridan · 2011-09-20 03:04 · Score: 1

Turns out, the iPad owners don't want to trade 'em in for printers. Strange, that.

Touch-screen e-ink in our futures? by erth64net · 2011-09-20 03:07 · Score: 1

If this idea takes hold, can we please see a decent touch-screen e-ink reader out there too? Something akin to the iPad's functionality, but with an e-ink screen...

Re:Touch-screen e-ink in our futures? by TrancePhreak · 2011-09-20 04:22 · Score: 1

Sony has a touch screen reader.

--

-]Phreak Out[-
Re:Touch-screen e-ink in our futures? by erth64net · 2011-09-20 05:04 · Score: 1

You mean their discontinued models, or their only current-model WiFi only gadget? With a screen size that's 1/4th of a letter-sized page...does it come with a magnifying lens too? Sorry, I'm not looking for some overpriced Sony branded gadget that can't even manage to include a cellular modem.
The Skiff would have been a nice start, but then NewsCorp killed that...

This is just someones excuse to get free gadgets. by Going_Digital · 2011-09-20 03:11 · Score: 1

This is just someones excuse to get free gadgets. How will the politicians send letters to their constituents without a printer ? oh wait thy will still have a printer to run and maintain and as soon as they realise that reading on an iPad screen is uncomfortable they will start printing their documents again and the iPad will just get used to play Angry Birds on the tax payers dime.

Without a good EDMS this is wasted effort by kb1 · 2011-09-20 03:12 · Score: 1

Sure, it's fine to refactor paper into bits and tout the benefits in terms of reduced capital expenditures, improved environmental impact etc., but without an electronic document management infrastructure that is widely adopted and intuitive for users it's not going to fly. Carrying my entire filecabinet with me sure beats having to pop back to my desk and rummage around for that all important bit of information, but what happens when I want to share it with you - how do I do that without breeding persistent duplicates (" just email me a copy") or forked versions ("email me your notes") all without having to be tech savvy? Perhaps this is a wonderful opportunity for an open source project like Alfresco or Knowledge Tree to step up to the plate and create an 'electronic print job' management engine. Some sort of central repository that uncouples the records management aspects from the traditional paper process metaphors, all delivered through an os-agnostic interface... True 'cloud printing', if you will.

Or stop them from fucking the country by Quiet_Desperation · 2011-09-20 03:29 · Score: 1

Here in the US I'd want to load the iPad with as many distractions as possible. Install ALL the Angry Birds!

Re:Then by sycodon · 2011-09-20 03:30 · Score: 1

Violence in the world would go down by half just by eliminating the need for printer drivers. A technology which for some reason never made it out of the70's

--
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.

What do US Kindergartens and British Gov't have... by roman_mir · 2011-09-20 03:36 · Score: 1

First kindergartens, now government.

I can see it:

-Johnson.
-Yes sir.
-I need that top-secret report on my desk now, Johnson.
-Yes sir, right away sir.

Brings an iPad.

-Johnson. Reduct these, these and these words out of it and send it to the newspapers.
-Yes sir.

Later in Rupert Murdoch controlled News of the World latest reincarnation:

-I just received this in the mail. It's an entire iPad. I don't know why they have white out all over the screen, but let me wash that right off.

--
You can't handle the truth.

Two requirements: cross platform data, secure data by markdowling · 2011-09-20 03:44 · Score: 1

Any tablet approved for public servant use should only use open standards for data and meet a government security standard similar to those done by NIST, with two factor authentication.

No to the iOS walled garden - no to a manufacturer who will issue devices which will tell Exchange it's an encrypted device when it isn't.

Environmental Footprint by cb95amc · 2011-09-20 03:47 · Score: 1

Seriously.......How much environmental impact does the entire manufacturing process of building tablets create? At least the paper industry is good at replacing the trees it uses.

Re:If you need to fill in a form, what then? by icebraining · 2011-09-20 03:48 · Score: 1

Do you sign it?

Sure. I use my government issued smart-card which includes my private keypair. What's your point?

Does the diffs get signed and added to the end?

I'm sure there are plenty of existing solutions for dealing with such problems. But you probably create a new version which supersedes the old one.

--
Dilbert RSS feed

Kindles would be better. by AJWM · 2011-09-20 03:54 · Score: 1

Or Nooks, or some other e-reader.

Do you really want to give them the distractions of Angry Birds and a zillion other apps? Do you really need color, for that matter? If iPads would pay for themselves in 18 months, Kindles (or equivalent) would pay for themselves in what, about 4 months?

But I guess sexy or shiny beats functional almost every time.

--
-- Alastair

Re:Kindles would be better. by Overzeetop · 2011-09-20 04:31 · Score: 1

You would need the DX version of a Kindle, so more like a 12-14 month payback - but your point, as with the others here, is well taken that as a paper substitute you may as well get a Kindle. It doesn't have a touchscreen interface, but the current iPads have such poor precision in note taking that it is nearly useless*. Of course, if they want it for other things, or require color, then it's reasonable to expect the more general tablet.
*I have an ipad, and I would use it for markup, but the PDF interface is very, very limited (that's an iOS failing, btw) when it works, and you may as well be drawing with a crayon or wide sharpie.

--
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?

Re:Then by robthebloke · 2011-09-20 04:13 · Score: 2

I've seen nonsense idea's like this rolled out before. Looks great on paper, until an inevitable stream of people start chanting "I've lost my iPad again!". For some reason, it seems to be much harder to lose the office printer. Can't think why?

Re:Then by Overzeetop · 2011-09-20 04:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

Have you ever tried getting files onto the iPad in a useful, orderly way. I have thousands of documents which are synced with a land and cloud server. Often, it's faster to walk to my desk, navigate to the file, and print it out than it is to find it on the iPad.

Also, until they get a real stylus interface (and not the ones with the 5mm tip; 0.5mm would be more appropriate) you will never be able to make decent notes in the margins.

--
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?

Re:Then by Mindcontrolled · 2011-09-20 04:39 · Score: 2

As we say in my office - we won't get paperless data processing soon, but we rock at dataless paper processing right now!

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Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

iPad will replace printing? by hawguy · 2011-09-20 04:43 · Score: 1

We have a pilot deployment of about a dozen iPads in my office (in addition to the user's traditional desktop/laptop) - I pulled up the printing history for those dozen users and aside from a small spike upwards just after they received their iPads (printing iPad manuals/guides?), printing use has remained flat, and costs around $10/month per user (including paper, ink + maintenance, but not including the printer lease, the lease fee might add $5 to the cost, but I can't imagine we'd get rid of the copier/scanner/printer even if people dramatically reduced their printing use). Even if they stop all printing, we'll never recoup the cost of the iPad.

And so far, the iPads get the most use as a netbook - most of the users have bought a keyboard and standup case that makes it look like netbook - I rarely seen one in use without a keyboard except when playing Angry Birds.

Let's Hope... by FurtiveGlancer · 2011-09-20 04:45 · Score: 1

That none of the MPs like to pound the table with their papers, er, iPads!

--
Invenio via vel creo

laptops for kids by Oakey · 2011-09-20 04:58 · Score: 1

oh this will go well. Anyone remember Labour's free laptops to poor kids? That was the scheme where they gave crappy ass £300 laptops to poor children at an expense of about £800 each to the government.

--
"Dre don't get as high as me.... I'm Cheech and Chong" - Snoop Dogg

clipgate protection by sgt+scrub · 2011-09-20 04:59 · Score: 1

This will keep them safe from using "chintzy paper clips" on important legislation.

--
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.

US Congress by ISoldat53 · 2011-09-20 05:02 · Score: 1

I think the US Congress should be dragged kicking and screaming in the 21st century.

Re:US Congress by ISoldat53 · 2011-09-20 05:12 · Score: 1

I meant INTO the 21st century.

Re:Then by Skuld-Chan · 2011-09-20 05:21 · Score: 1

Why Android tablets haven't taken off is beyond me. I got one the other day for $380 (Asus Transformer) and in 15 minutes after opening the box it was synced with all my Google docs/email/calendaring - even wifi hotspot setups (which apparently are synced to Google from my phone?). No - my docs aren't on the device - they are stored on cloud servers and instantly available. I can download them to the device for offline use as well pretty easily as well.

I got my GF an Ipad 2 and spent most of the afternoon setting up accounts by hand - and now she can read her Google docs via the web browser, but it certainly wasn't as easy to setup - and your right - it seems outside of itunes putting files on it is painful.

Finally! by ThatsNotPudding · 2011-09-20 05:21 · Score: 1

I'm sooo tired of old, busted paper running out of battery life, or the shattered mess it makes when dropped on the floor.

a fix by gtall · 2011-09-20 05:31 · Score: 1

Just take 5 pounds Sterling out of every person's paycheck for every new document the generate. This will stop both the need for iPads and the need for paper.

Netherlands did that. by Barryke · 2011-09-20 06:03 · Score: 1

The "Eerste Kamer" (senate) in the Netherlands already is transitioning to paperless, using iPads. They say it'll be cost-covering in one year.

--
Hivemind harvest in progress..

Re:iPad? by sbjornda · 2011-09-20 06:31 · Score: 1

Blackberry Playbook - Same price and it doesn't do email

Mine does email just fine, tethered to my corporate BB Bold via BlackBerry Bridge. And at long last there's a Citrix client for it, too.

--
.nosig

Outrage by Wovel · 2011-09-20 06:37 · Score: 1

Paper weight and clip manufacturers are outraged.

Re:Then by dan828 · 2011-09-20 07:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

The reason why is that tablet are not being used (for the most part) as productivity devices. The vast bulk of tablet use is for light, non-business email and web surfing, music and video playing, and light gaming. Apple definitely has a much larger mind share among the general population than Android does.

Re:really? by jo_ham · 2011-09-20 16:05 · Score: 1

RTFA.

Oh, this is slashdot, silly me.

Re:Then by CapuchinSeven · 2011-09-20 21:16 · Score: 1

I bet you're awesome to be with at parties.

Kindle DX? by itsdapead · 2011-09-22 00:10 · Score: 1

The DX is not really being pushed by Amazon here in the UK, although you can get one for about £300 - getting into half-decent tablet territory. The regular kindle is £110-£150 which is just cheap enough to justify buying it as a single-purpose device for reading novels & similar.

Also, in the UK/EU we have this utterly stupid tax regime that really hobbles e-readers: printed books are exempt from sales tax, but e-books are subject to (typically 20%) tax. I get the impression that (printed) text books here are rather cheaper than in the US - but not by the time you've added 20%.

--
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.

Slashdot Mirror

British Govt Debates Swapping Printers For iPads

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