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$529M DOE Loan Spawns $97K Made-in-Finland Cars
theodp writes "With PR successes like the Fisker Karma, does the Department of Energy need to worry about PR failures like Solyndra? ABC News and others are reporting that electric car company Fisker, which received a $529M federal loan guarantee with the approval of the Obama administration, is assembling its first line of $96,985 base-priced hybrid cars in Finland, saying it could not find a facility in the United States capable of doing the work. According to Green Car Reports, Fisker said the EPA had rated the Karma at 54 MPGe (MPG-equivalent) when running on electricity from its battery pack, and that the EPA-rated electric range would be 32 miles. Omitted from the press release was the 20-mpg rating for a Karma running on power from its range-extending gasoline engine."
Considering the high price of labour in Finland (where even illiterate cleaners make $13/hour), could this be a rare instance of a company telling the truth when it says it had to outsource because it couldn't get the work done in America? It's hard to believe that this work is being relocated just to cut costs.
You never know what you didn't buy that you're paying for anyway!
The company name is "Fisker"? It's nice to see the American taxpayer getting exactly what he's paying for these days.
American Third Position
Finally, a real choice!
They couldn't find a facility? Wasn't the whole point of these programs to build new facilities?
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
So, not only are middle class tax dollars used to bail out and ensure the bonuses of those capable of affording a $90,000 "green" sports car, but they're also used to subsidize the production of said sports cars in another fucking country.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
Finland is known for their great education system, so it is no small wonder that they are more capable.
The DOE loan is for the Nina, it'll be built in An shutdown Saturn plant in Delaware. Not the Karma.
The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
Now a GM exec just has to buy a Fisker Karma so he can ride his tax-funded car to his tax-funded job where all tbe profits are private. What are those oil industry regulator women doing nowadays? Maybe he can get a tax-funded blowjob under his desk.
Meanwhile, right-wingers call the OWS movement a bunch of entitled hippies.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Maybe pushing work back to the home region?
Not sure of the Fiska car is a sports car...it'd better be for $100K. But if you're interested in comparing the MPG between the two, the Tesla Roadster Wikipedia entry has an interesting breakdown of how it's calculated for electric cars. Short answer is it's about 123 MPG, but it's more complicated than that.
And a handy tidbit: apparently the replacement battery for the Tesla (7 years or 70,000 miles) is $12,000. And a funny story: getting off the ferry back home, a Tesla Roadster was parked on the curb with an attendant (probably the guy driving it onto the boat for the owner). Some young adults were unlocking their bike right next to it and they tipped over and missed it by about an inch. What happens when you accidentally scratch a $100,000 car? I'm assuming the owner just deals with it -- I mean, if you can toss $12,000 at a battery replacement, you likely can afford the insurance premium for a buff and paint job.
... are written in Finnish?
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
So for $89K you get an electric vehicle that doesn't go as far as the Chevy Volt (which costs $40K)? As a hybrid, it gets the equivalent of 20MPG? I thought the goal of the electric car was to do better than the gasoline powered vehicles. Tesla at least is all electric and has that wow factor. What was the business model that allowed the US Government to invest $500+M??
"Software is the difference between hardware and reality"
proponent of the power of state, and believes that more of it, the better. He is a proponent of command economy, as evidenced by his goverment allocating economic resources according to ideology, rather than market realities.
How else to explain giving government money to these firms?
As we all know, if at first you don't succeed, never -- under any circumstances! -- try anything ever again!! Whenever the DJI goes down by even a single point, I take out all my money, stuff it in a mattress, and curse myself for ever being so foolish as to invest in something that wasn't 100% guaranteed to pan out.
Also, it's just a flat out lie to make the title "$529M DOE Loan". It's a loan guarantee, not a loan. The taxpayers are in no way on the hook for anywhere close to $529M.
I also find it suspicious that the summary doesn't mention that this is a sports car. The price and fuel efficiency suddenly look a lot better when you compare it to a Corvette instead of a Civic. It may in fact be very successful in that market. But this point gets no mention... it's almost as if the submitter is a right-wing troll.
Even if it does work out great (something that had yet to be seen) it's still a broken window fallacy. It's only a good move if the money is better used here than it would have been if left in the private sector (and with the CBO estimating 20-60% waste on every dollar so spent, it has to be significantly better).
Being a "fabless automaker" doesn't work all that well. You can get exotics made that way, but it's too expensive for a production product.
Tesla's great achievement was that they finally made a usable, fun to drive electric car. It's overpriced, but it does work. I see them on the road all the time in Silicon Valley. I hope Tesla can actually get their sedan product to profitability. Tesla was lucky to pick up the NUMMI plant cheaply; they got a modern small car auto assembly plant in good condition, although it's far bigger than they need and they're only using part of it.
There are plenty of defunct auto plants for sale in the US. Of course, those are the ones auto companies decided they didn't want to keep. Most of them are huge plants full of very specialized but obsolete machinery for making engines, transmissions, or body stampings in huge quantity. GM also dumped two assembly plants, both of which are for making pickups, SUVs, and Suburban/Hummer sized vehicles. Nobody wants those.
Are you really surprised by any of these payouts to completely uneconomic green (as in money) projects by BHO? Do you notice the pattern of $500 million loans? There seem to be BHO Big Bundlers involved in each of them. A Big Bundler is someone who gathered together at least $500,000 for the Obama campaign. Pretty good ROI here: Invest $500,000 and get back $500,000,000.00. We are being robbed by these Progressives on a grand scale never before seen in this country -- and there are still people who just can't wait to vote for this clown again!
And to add insult, their first Fisker $97K car only gets the equivalent of 19MPG -- the same as the average SUV. Damn, I'm mad.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
The war's over!!!
Green is new the buzzword for hiding payments to political allies.
http://dev.publicintegrity.org/2011/10/20/7152/energys-risky-1-billion-bet-two-politically-connected-electric-car-builders
As in, Fisker is connect to an Al Gore group and Tesla is connected to Google leaders who are major fund raisers for ......
So just like Solyndra, none of this was about viability, this was all about who is connected to whom, follow the money. It is nothing more than politics as usual
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I see:
- limited range
- low fuel economy
- high price
- See http://mindset.ch/de/?page_id=75 for an alternative
I can't really tell from the wording... was "PR Success" meant as irony?
These specs seem to be really poor -- $100K price tag, only slightly less than the high-end Tesla sports car, 32 mile electric range, which the Roberts Electric Car built in 1896 beats by 20%, and 20 MPG on gasoline, which my F150 truck beats by 13% on the freeway. Do the people of Finland really have such low standards?
All this for $592M in US tax money for a product that doesn't create a single US job. This is a success that makes up for the failure of Solyndra?
And now we're calling the Solyndra bankruptcy, with it's loss of more than a half billion dollars of taxpayer money, a PR failure??
Seriously?
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
You can run over someone's Dogma with your Karma.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Funny how all this Pork makes it on the news as "Government Waste" when it's not a cause the benefits conservative constituents. Lets start talking about farm subsidies for flyover states and we'll see how these "green" wastes of money amount to a rounding error compared to the graft that goes in red states.
Investing in companies that are in new efficient technologies is not a bad idea. Of course they won't all be winners, but most new ventures aren't anyway.
Wages are high but the cost of electricity is relatively low. I have no idea how big expense that is compared to wages but I'd guess that it amounts to something?
In any case... Let me be the first Finnish person here to say: Thank you. Fiskers is hiring also software developers over here and I've considered applying. If I will and if I'll get the job, I'll try to remember where my paycheck is coming from. :)
Damn Socialists, how dare the compete with out capitalism!
Of course we're going to pour billions into companies, having no venture capital experience, and even without a proper vetting process that will be adhered to.
(Dis)credit to Bush for signing this into existence, but Obama's corrupt administration of course had to make it worse. His own people told him Solyndra was a bad investment, but he and Chu were chummy with the owners and it was a big political "green" score. It went through anyway even before legally mandated evaluations were finished. Any VC firm operating like this would be out of money fast.
I'm sure Solyndra was only the first. We'll be seeing more.
Electric car investment is clearly necessary. Without the investment, no electric cars. Private industry has had the opportunity for years, but blew it off in favor of gas guzzling SUVs and other trucks with suspended emissions regulations that it could sell to a market greased with fakeout balloon credit. That bizmodel crashed the car industry, while helping to drive up gas prices to $4+ and oil prices to $120+ - and made the Greenhouse even worse faster. Only when the public bailed out the US car industry (to save the rest of the US economy and industrial base) did it start to turn to serious electric product development.
But it's not enough. And because a lot of strategic progress hides behind multiple risky options, private industry (and finance) doesn't invest in it. Because those normal investors don't know how to invest in anything - which is why the entire investment industry had to get bailed out by the public. So the electric car investments have to come from the public, too.
Now, those investments are risky, as I said. Not too risky to do any of them, but too risky for each one to pay off. And when the government invests, it's far more efficient for it to invest in larger single investments, because managing a lot of little ones is beyond the ability to centrally plan and organize, especially given the volume and complexity of reporting and oversight that comes with any government contract. And then some of these investments will fail. Big ones will lose a lot of money.
Which is why private investment is better. Except private investment isn't doing it. Even before the Credit Bubble crashed, across many different bubbles (and even sustained growth), private investment wasn't doing it. Yet if we don't do it, either our resources and pollution crises will damage us more than the cost of the investment, or a foreign government will do it in ways that hurt us to help them, or most likely both.
So the government will have some Solyndras. It will have some Fiskers. Just as private investment would have had, though probably overall less wasted investment because there is so much more transparency (even if not enough) than when private investors make their deals - and fail. Plus government investment tends to take other policies, like US labor growth, into account that private investment ignores or worse. Not all the time, as is perhaps the case here with Fisker, but more than when private investment does it. Which, again, it is not doing here. And government investments, even when the commercial venture fails, tend to produce more usable lessons learned (and tech spun off) than private failures that usually keep the intellectual value suppressed in some new owner, or just left to rot entirely without a new use.
--
make install -not war
One loan at a time!
After Solyndra there will be more failed green energy companies backed by socialist spending. One of my client's, a silicon crystal grower, is busy buying up equipment from green energy companies as they liquidate and pay back the original investors using taxpayer money.
Unpopular as it may be with the Slashdot crowd, the government is not smart enough to pick winners. The government should not be in this business. Taking tax money to invest in initiatives like this is at best foolish and at worst theft.
This was $529 million dollars taken from Americans and given to Obama's cronies. Where did that money come from?
Top 10% of earners: ~$365 million dollars
Top 50% of earners: ~$520 million dollars
If that money had not been taxed and wasted it would have been wasted mostly by those in the upper middle class and the rich. It would have gone to support private schools, yoga teachers, golf courses, 5 star restaurants, designer stores, etc. Each of those business provides jobs and incomes for the service industry: the bottom 50% of earners.
If you want to create more jobs in America then stop taxing Americans.
Tesla sued Fisker in 2008, for a car design: http://green.autoblog.com/2008/04/15/breaking-tesla-sues-fisker-over-electric-car-design/
Tesla sued TopGear in 2011, for a car review: http://www.iol.co.za/motoring/industry-news/tesla-losing-top-gear-court-challenge-1.1162112 "Tesla losing Top Gear court challenge"
See the spectacular Jeremy Clarkson review the Tesla in 2008 and compare it with its car design origin (Lotus Elise) http://www.spike.com/video-clips/c3neux/top-gear-reviews-the-tesla-roadster
Tesla sues who next?
If Henrik Fisker isn't "in the business of failing", why did he pursue a U.S. government loan that wouldn't be utilized within the U.S.? By doing so, he's already failed.
First, DOE provides loan guarantees, not loans. Yes, the American taxpayer is taking some risk, for (second) an _American_ company that is apparently incorporated in California (http://www.manta.com/c/mtmkvtq/fisker-automotive-inc). So, the government is supporting a small American business that outsources manufacturing--small business, free trade, the right should be thrilled! But mis-sell the story as a loan to a company with a Finnish(ish) name for a risky greenie-weenie alt-energy project, and you can make Obama look like a Commie giving away our gold!
As usual, the actions taken were rational by all parties; when filtered through second-rate media and third-rate bloggers, everyone's out to get us. Faaa.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
A government should not be investing in commercializing technologies, that's what businesses are for. Gov't should only fund research to develop technologies to the point that they appear to be viable for commercialization, then let private investors take the risks of actually producing and commercializing the product. We're investing in the wrong things. In some cases, a gov't may invest it or subsidize the development of infrastructure (e.g. roads, communication lines, power lines, railroads, water supply and sewer systems), but never in production facilities that will not be owned and operated by the gov't (e.g. a city water district may build a water and sewage treatment facility that they will operate).
make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
They could take a lesson from IKEA and ship the parts to build the car to the U.S. It would be one hell of a big box, though.
Planning to be moderated ± 1: Bad Pun.
It was interesting, back when we had that sharp spike in the price of gasoline (2007?), that there was sort of an uptick in the number of people commuting on bikes around here (Boston area). The let-the-market-work way to encourage this sort of investment is to boost the price of gasoline somewhat, and then let consumers make their choices. Maybe it would be more bicycles (they're really cheap compared even to cheap cars), maybe it would be more carpooling (there's startups already attempting to sell services to match people up for carpooling), maybe people would just move closer to their jobs.
You know how an infinite amount of monkeys can write Shakespear?
Well, you can get a slashdot editor with just 1 monkey. One that has donated its brain to science... and then died.
And don't forget that oh so reliable source and who owns it.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
If their legally required pay exceeds their value they will not be hired.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
One of the reason why Valmet and similar finnish companies can work the way they do is because everyone and their grandmother at least understands decent english around here.
The decision to build the cars to Finland was made in 2008.
Fisker got the loan in 2009.
With the loan Fisker bought a car factory in the USA. The purpose is to make family sedan models there.
This is internal politics of the USA and an attempt by ABC and the Republican party to try to make Obama look bad.
Finland was chosen because no company in the USA was capable of making that car according to the specifications. Why? Because the US industry base has been outsourced to India and China, and is now reaping those fruits. Enjoy the Mickey Mouse immaterial products economy!
Either the drivetrain motor has the efficiency of a drunk guy falling over or they're using the 2-strokiest lawnmower engine available & saying it's a turbocharged 4-cylinder 4-stroke.
The guy was well known that he was going to keep the work in Europe. Yet, DOE loaned that idiot money? DOE's iodicy is making them look like it is ran by a bunch of neo-cons. Horribly inept.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Its because Finland gives access to European Market without the soon to be imposed* tarrifs, also next to Russia, probably its largest market. Finland, I'm guessing is a low tax state and most importantly the US will be extremely limited in power to investigate and collect repayments.
*as soon as the great global depression becomes official
The company in Finland, Valmet Automotive, currently builds the Boxster and the Cayman for Porsche. If you want to build a sports car, but don't have a factory to build it with, Valmet is probably a good option.
Buying an antiquated former "Big Three" factory is a giant waste of money. Example: the former Chrysler Engine Plant in Kenosha, WI is going to cost $13 MIL in environmental clean-up. At least that's what they're estimating right now. Who's going to pay for that? The State of WI and the federal government.
The 54MPGe estimate takes no account of inefficiencies in electricity generation and transmission.
The true look-though fossil-fuel consumption is closer to 19MPG.
"Global Warming" is nothing more than a millenial statistic used to force companies out of competition, forcing them into regulations that have nothing to do with cleaning the environment. People alone are responsible for how clean their environment is, and China is a fine example of litterbugs who work at factories where the same workers dump toxic material everywhere. No law can clean that up: it's a product of their bad culture, like their Foetus Soup and eating raw live octopods that die a miserable death writhing in agony of stomach acid. You don't want these people as your friends, because if they sense any kind of correction to them from foreign countries like the United States then they woulf flock here to vote as a family that ruines the United States for standing-up to Great 5k Year Chinese Heritage.
The DOE investment is to build the Nina in Delaware. Period. And Fisker is making that happen. Maybe a bit behind schedule but they're launching their new models faster (3 years from drawing board to production) than any major car company can accomplish.
Does anyone really expect the government to prohibit a company from quickly manufacturing luxury product in another country, to establish the brand while they prepare to build higher volumes in the US? It's just a smart business plan. But obviously no one at ADC news has ever had to come up with a smart business plan...
Finally, how many of you drive more than 32 miles regularly on the way to work, and wouldn't be able to use the electric capacity? If you do you're gonna be in serious pain as soon as gasoline doubles again!
wow....money meant for US jobs, and stimulus now in finland. Fisker needs to be called on the carpet, and the loan revoked.
Actually most people in Finland can read and speak English, as well as Swedish, Russian, and German.
Does Brazil have a minimum wage as high as ours? Do they have to comply with EPA regulations? Do any countries we claim to have "free trade" have the same burdens? I'm not saying those regulations are bad, just pointing out that it's not really free trade because of them. This is part of the reason the jobs are leaving the US.
Don't they make scissors? Pretty high quality scissors, actually. Oh wait, different company.
Valmet is a contract automobile manufacturer. In the early years, almost all Porsche Boxsters went through final assembly at Valmet. The engines were produced in Stuttgart.
"The only US bids received stated that they assumed we had made an error in the RFQ, and actually required quantities in the tens of thousands. These suppliers relied on a manufacturing process which required that scale and would result in prohibitively expensive unit costs for a production run of mere hundreds."
The downside of "economies of scale". You're right, I'm sure. Sometimes, in order to make lots of stuff cheaply, you have to give up the ability to make small amounts of stuff cheaply.
It's not uncommon for /. editors to add a story update when significant new information comes to light, or there was a major f-up in the original. This is one of those times, Soulskill. I know a lot of stuff rotates through your in-box, and you got suckered by @theodp. You need post the correction:
- Fisker Karma, made in Finland, no DOE loan.
- Fisker Nina, to be made in Delaware, with DOE loan.
Luke, help me take this mask off
Give it back.
Sue them.
Take it from them by force.
That money was taken by me by force.
I'm not sure that the first four companies listed would be willing to help build a competitor's car in one of their facilities without a more extensive partnership, that they're set up for such limited production runs, etc...
As for local motors - are they set up to build whole cars by the thousand? Do they have the excess capability available? Do they have the tools/equipment to transition to constructing electric hybrids without extensive reworking?
I don't read AC A human right
Tax dollars go overseas to fund another country's economy to produce a luxury item that only the rich minority can use.
Fuck the US.
It's just so... meh. 54mpg? I'd expect that out of a modern diesel engine, no hybridisation required. And 20mpg on the "range extender" is just shocking. The 4 litre straight 6 in a TVR Tuscan can do better than that - and even the last one off the production line (2006) isn't exactly a modern car any more.
Since when did slashdot became a cesspool of uninformed idiots?
The loan is for the Nina platform that is to be built in USA.
WSJ is own by that idiot Murdoch that enjoys attacking any president that is a democrat.
This post should be deleted for misleading idiots.
Who funded the creation of the internet? The government. I don't see anything wrong with the government encouraging new sectors and technologies.
Why is my tax money being used to create jobs in a foreign country?
I agree with Keynesian economics, but it only works when we spend tax money locally. What a waste.
WHY? Electric cars are toys. Can't perform. Low range. Too expensive. Too heavy. Terribly inefficient. And their materials are poisonous to people and to the environment. Electricity is the dirtiest least efficient fuel conceivable. Where do you think it comes from? From dirty coal is where. And converting the energy THREE TIMES (coal to steam; steam to electricity; electricity to rotation) is the most inefficient wasteful process ever invented by mankind.
LET’S HOPE THESE IDIOTS GO BANKRUPT SOON. We and the environment are in deep trouble is electric cars were to succeed. The people who thought this up are committing crimes against humanity and crimes against the Earth.
OF COURSE THEY ARE. They are modern Democrats and they claim to love the Environment. Sure they do; like Hitler loved the Jews. It’s just another communist conspiracy (what else do you call those promoting state despotism in the name of socialistic ideals?).
Obama pays another donor? All this political payback is getting really expensive.
Killing the Executive Branch and Department of Energy is authorized.
Performance poorer than decades-old standards, prices up in the F22 range... This almost sounds like a government project. Oh, wait...
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
1992 Finland bought 64 F17 Hornets from McDonnell Douglas which was merged to Boeing worth $3.45 billion and have paid them up to last cent. After that there have been few MLUs (Mid Life Update) worth few tens millions more. Finland is not member of NATO and did not get -60-80% discount like NATO members.
The contract involved requirement for U.S to buy back 100% worth goods from Finland. None of those purchased back have not been materialized regardless almost 20 years have passed.
I have proposal. Let's move that Fisker assembly to U.S. but U.S then complies with that 1992 agreement. That sounds fair to both sides.
ac
My bet is that a goodly percentage of Slashdot posters and skulkers voted for the saintly Obama.
And this is what you get - an administration spending your (or more likely your parents) tax dollars on stupid projects. Peopled by academics and other fools who have never even organized a lemonade stand.
Next time you go into the corner store and see the fellow fresh from the Punjab behind the counter. Reflect on the fact that he (or his sari wearing wife) has more business experience than Obama had when he entered the White House.
Hey! I am Finnish stock. Thx US gov! Finland can use the handout!
Cost effective REVA is setting up plant in New York, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVA
It's also quite nice electrical vehicle