Nokia Unveils Its First Windows 7 Phone

mikejuk writes with an excerpt from an I Programmer article: "Nokia has just launched the Lumia 800, its first Windows 7 phone, and it is basically a modified N9. CEO Stephen Elop said: 'It's a new dawn for Nokia.' He also called it 'the first real Windows Phone,' and said, 'We believe it is the first ever instantiation of the Windows Phone platform that properly embodies, complements and amplifies the design sensibilities of Windows Phone' ... It is being launched in Europe now but the US wont see one until early 2012." By "modified N9" they mean the N9 but running WP7 bundled with Nokia's navigation application and a streaming music service.

Comments

Why ignore US?

[sunr2007]

I dont understand why dont nokia launch in US also? The biggest smartphone market is in US with probably largest no of users. With Europe in deep crisis ,i think it will be hard to gain traction in it . Is nokia strategy flawed in ignoring US Holiday season?

Re:Why ignore US?

[Nick Fel]

Isn't Europe traditionally a stronger market for Nokia? Or perhaps they're hoping to sell a few more N9s before replacing it.

Re:Why ignore US?

[WolfgangPG]

Nokia apparently isn't well known in the US and is very well liked in Europe. It makes sense to me they launch in Europe first and then come to the USA.

Also none of there currently announced phones have a Front Facing Camera (FFC). FFC is a new hot marketing bullet point in the US and they probably want to release phones with FFC in America (HTCs and Samsungs new WP7 phones have FFC). There was rumored to a 4.3 inch Nokia phone with FFC that will launch in the US in Q1 2012.

Overall -- solid phones, nice Nokia software IMHO, but just another quality phone, nothing amazing. Might have the best camera on the cellphone market though.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Dunbal]

The biggest smartphone market is in US with probably largest no of users.

[citation needed] The US is no longer biggest in many things. That's what happens when other countries with huge populations start getting their own "middle class". 300,000,000 people is just a teenie tiny fraction of 7 billion. I dare you to visit Latin America, Africa or Asia and see exactly how many "smart phone" users there are in those markets.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Rob Y.]

Why on earth did they release the N9 at all? Wasn't that just released last week? Unless they're hedging their bets on keeping Meego alive, why would they want to confuse the market that way?

Re:Why ignore US?

[captainpanic]

Europe has a higher population than the US... and even higher than all of North America. And almost all Europeans can afford a smart phone.

And our crisis doesn't hit the customers so much... It's a lot of noise from the banks and governments... and the Greeks seem to be on strike permanently now. But that's just 1 country out of many. I thought that it was the US, rather than Europe, where customers couldn't pay their own bills anymore, and where houses went up for sale becaus the mortgage was too much? That doesn't happen much over here.

Re:Why ignore US?

[ryzvonusef]

They aren't but to penetrate the US means working with Carriers, that's why Nokia hasn't said anything.

However, According to the blog "ThisIsMyNext" Elop said they will be coming to the US "early 2012"[1], along with LTE and CDMA support. Also they spotted a Verizon employee[2], so the might give a clue.

[1]: http://thisismynext.com/2011/10/26/nokias-windows-phones-coming-early-2012/
[2]: http://thisismynext.com/2011/10/26/verizon-staff-spotted-nokia-world/

Re:Why ignore US?

[zach_the_lizard]

The US accounts for ~100 million smartphone sales, about the same as Western Europe IIRC. I'd say that at least putting it on AT&T is better than nothing; at least in that case they wouldn't need to add a CDMA radio.

Re:Why ignore US?

[icebraining]

And almost all Europeans can afford a smart phone.

Yes, for sufficiently low values of all. Here in Southern Europe salaries are low (and dropping) and unemployment is rampant. Everyone has a cellphone, but a smartphone? Not really.

Re:Why ignore US?

[poofmeisterp]

I dont understand why dont nokia launch in US also? The biggest smartphone market is in US with probably largest no of users. With Europe in deep crisis ,i think it will be hard to gain traction in it . Is nokia strategy flawed in ignoring US Holiday season?

There are so many patent and copyright issues that have to be analyzed with the finest tooth comb ever.

It may miss the holiday shelves here.

Re:Why ignore US?

[vlm]

The US accounts for ~100 million smartphone sales, about the same as Western Europe IIRC

The problem is only about one percent of those sales are in the windows 7 ecosystem according to figures I've read.

Its like trying to release a new flavor of Nutella... Its mostly going to sell to current customers... so do you do that in Italy or Wyoming... I'm thinking... not the US.

Re:Why ignore US?

[phishtahko]

They probably had a contract with Intel that they had to release at least one product featuring Meego.

Re:Why ignore US?

[UnknowingFool]

I would say US may have the largest market of potential new buyers as many have dumb phones. In Europe and Asia, there is a lot of current smartphone users but they may or may not be willing to switch so easily. It appears that the strategy Nokia has employed is going after these new buyers. As for Latin America, Africa, I'm not sure of the data network coverage.

Re:Why ignore US?

[wvmarle]

US is in a worse crisis than Europe. Just look at the EUR/USD rates: even though there's a very serious financial crisis looming in Europe, the Euro is still very strong. That indicates very clearly in how bad a shape the US economy is at the moment. Oh and besides Europe is way bigger than the US when it comes to population.

Re:Why ignore US?

[zach_the_lizard]

Europe has a higher population than the US... and even higher than all of North America. And almost all Europeans can afford a smart phone.

Even those in Eastern Europe? Perhaps conditions have improved since the fall of communism quite a bit more than I've thought....

Re:Why ignore US?

[kelemvor4]

Nokia was a big player in the US about 10 years ago, but they didn't advance like their competitors so they have pretty much been forgotten. They tried to advance with meego to advance I guess, but I don't think I've ever even seen an actual meego phone outside of internet videos.

I've got my doubts about them placing their eggs in the WinMO basket. I've had a number of wince/windows mobile phones. The MS phone OS was fine back in the CE days when they were pretty much the best you could get for smartphones, but these days Winmo is behind the curve and carries with it a name that doesn't instill feelings of trust in most people's minds (Microsoft).

I'm no industry expert, but imho this product can't be as successful as Nokia needs it to be.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Nursie]

Uh... I had a front facing camera about 5 years ago on an N70. The N9 also has a front facing camera, so it's pretty likely that the Lumia has one.

Just 'cos the iPhone waited until version 4 last year to add a front camera, doesn't mean the rest of the world went without.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Nursie]

No wait, I rolled out the snark early, they have removed it for the Lumia. Which is retarded.

They really are on the path to self destruction.

Re:Why ignore US?

[zach_the_lizard]

The problem is only about one percent of those sales are in the windows 7 ecosystem according to figures I've read.

Its like trying to release a new flavor of Nutella... Its mostly going to sell to current customers... so do you do that in Italy or Wyoming... I'm thinking... not the US.

I was under the impression WP7 sales were just as terrible in Europe as in the US. Am I mistaken?

Re:Why ignore US?

[wvmarle]

What is that with "putting it on AT&T" or "available on Verizon" all the time? Why not just putting it for sale in the shops, like in the rest of the world? With those stupid contract lock-ins you never get a vibrant market. Like in Hong Kong where on average people have a new phone every six months. That means they can sell four times as many phones per number of population than the US where you're stuck for two years each time.

This may also be a reason for Nokia to ignore the US market for now. Only people at the end of their contract may buy their new WP7 phone. Other markets without that lock-in all users are potential customers.

Re:Why ignore US?

[CRCulver]

Exchange rates aren't always a good indicator of strength. For example, the Latvian lat is stronger than the euro, but Latvia's economy is in the doldrums.

Re:Why ignore US?

[zach_the_lizard]

One reason it's "only on AT&T" is that AT&T is GSM while Verizon is CDMA. The two technologies are incompatible, and unless you want each phone to also have a CDMA radio (which is pretty much only used in the US and in another form Japan, IIRC), it's AT&T /T-Mobile only.

What really sucks is that even an unlocked phone will not reduce your monthly, unlike most other places. I would love for that model to be here.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even those in Eastern Europe? Perhaps conditions have improved since the fall of communism quite a bit more than I've thought....

Yes, they did.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Anonymous Coward]

The fall of communism was 22 years ago. Time to wake up, buddy.

Re:Why ignore US?

[oakgrove]

Yes, you are mistaken. They are even worse.

Re:Why ignore US?

[cbope]

Yes, even Eastern Europe. Growth there is substantial compared to the rest of Europe, but that's mainly because they started from basically zero.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Dunbal]

As for Latin America, Africa, I'm not sure of the data network coverage.

It sucks in the countryside, but it's adequate near population centers. Guess where most of the customers are? Population centers (shocker!). I live in latin America and my maid, who earns $20 a day, has a smart phone.

Re:Why ignore US?

[cbope]

The data network coverage is probably better than in many rural parts of the US. I travel to Brazil regularly and I've never been without good coverage even outside smaller cities and towns.

While the US telecoms companies sit on their asses and overcharge consumers, the rest of the world is building out wireless networks. In most of the developing countries, they are not buying computers or laptops, they are buying smartphones. This is how they get on the net and read email.

Re:Why ignore US?

[0123456]

Exchange rates aren't always a good indicator of strength. For example, the Latvian lat is stronger than the euro, but Latvia's economy is in the doldrums.

Most Eurozone countries wish their economy was only in the doldrums.

Re:Why ignore US?

[cavreader]

Technically speaking China would probably have the highest number of users or potential users based on population. However, I don't think people making $2 an hour have obtaining a smart phone at the top of their got to have list.

Re:Why ignore US?

[0123456]

What's the point of a 'debt ceiling' if you just raise it every time you reach it?

Don't you think that a 'debt ceiling' is supposed to, you know, stop the government from going further into debt?

Re:Why ignore US?

[dreemernj]

The whole debacle about raising the US debt ceiling was a completely manufactured "crisis" caused entirely by the Republicans and the Tea Party, and their idiotic brinksmanship (and complete ignorance about what the debt ceiling even represents... hint, it has nothing to do with authorizing NEW spending) was the entire justification for the recent US Downgrade.

That was ridiculous, entirely political, and had very little to do with our actual economy or its state. It was more about our politics, and how disfunctional they are (with one party purposely making them as disfunctional as possible, and the other party not organized enough or assertive enough to actually fight back effectively).

Don't you wish the debt ceiling was the real crisis? Because the real deep crisis you describe is much much worse.

Re:Why ignore US?

[91degrees]

There's probably not a lot in it either way. Both regions have a comparable population in the best demographic for purchasing the device.

Executives tend to prefer the domestic market. They understand it a little better, and overseas markets will leave them one more step removed from the actual decisions.

Re:Why ignore US?

[swb]

Yeah, S&P cut the Treasury's bond rating and what happened? Price went up and the yield dropped due to increased demand. Yawn.

Europe? Still fretting on how to bail out Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain without destroying the Euro, losing their entire banking sector, etc.

Merkel trying to decide if they will hang her from the Reichstag or merely vote her out of office if she makes Germans pay for Greek, Portuguese and Italian corruption and profligacy and poor French banking.

Sarkozy trying desperately to keep France relevant by getting Societe General, Credit Agricole and BNP Paribas bailed out with maybe only a 25% haircut -- and on Merkel's dime. He's also desperate to get re-elected, despite framing DSK right out of the election and forcing the Socialists to nominate a jerkwater bureaucrat as a replacement, he's worried that he might get shown up by Marine LePen.

So, right, tell me about the current European success story.

Re:Why ignore US?

[1s44c]

I dont understand why dont nokia launch in US also? The biggest smartphone market is in US with probably largest no of users. With Europe in deep crisis ,i think it will be hard to gain traction in it . Is nokia strategy flawed in ignoring US Holiday season?

Maybe they want to test the beta version on Europe and only set a release date for the US once they have some idea how long it will take them and Microsoft to get the kinks out of this thing.

Personally I once owned a windows phone, I'm not falling for the 'it's better this time' BS. If Nokia go windows only I'm not buying from Nokia.

Re:Why ignore US?

[NeutronCowboy]

Sure. But the point to stop increasing the debt ceiling is before you allocate the money, not after. If you vote for a budget, and then block the people in charge of paying for the money from doing so, you're nothing but a third-grade political hack who is selling his country down the shitter so that he can get a few more votes from equally moronic voters.

Re:Why ignore US?

[h4rr4r]

Considering how much an iPhone goes for in China I would guess you are wrong about how much they make and what they want to spend it on. China is a huge market for smartphones and will only grow in the next few years.

Re:Why ignore US?

[1s44c]

What's the point of a 'debt ceiling' if you just raise it every time you reach it?

Don't you think that a 'debt ceiling' is supposed to, you know, stop the government from going further into debt?

The idea is at some point the government will pay back the debt. As that isn't actually going to happen they should scrap the debt ceiling.

Re:Why ignore US?

[h4rr4r]

I would imagine the USA. Assuming people are selling their old devices. Affording a cellular data plan is a whole other beast.

Re:Why ignore US?

[h4rr4r]

The idea is that you plan with the ceiling in mind.

The downrating was because they almost did not pay their bills. That would be a breach of the constitution but these traitors were willing to go that far for a little media time.

Re:Why ignore US?

[larry bagina]

In the beginning, when Congress passed laws involving deficit spending, part of the bill included authorization for the selling of bonds necessary to fund it.

Later, Congress abrogated their rights and responsibilities and handed that job over to the treasury department, retaining a debt ceiling. As a result, buying shit and actually paying for shit are entirely divorced from each other.

A recent study showed that people impulse buy more junk food when they use a credit card than when they use cash. Congress is no different (s/junk food/pork/). Same with student loans or home loans.

Re:Why ignore US?

[RavenManiac]

The best thing for Nokia to do now is to release their phones with a choice of several OS's. When you get your new phone, you pick one--MeeGo, Symbian, Windows, Android--and lock it in. When you get bored or annoyed with your choice, you can switch. Or have dual-boot, or boot from SD card, like I do with my tablet [or computer] so I can have multiply systems.

US isn't the biggest market for smart phones, it's the biggest market for shiny things that don't always work well. I'll keep my N8, thank you.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Bert64]

That wouldn't suit their goals of promoting windows phone, since the majority of users would probably choose android.

Re:Why ignore US?

[nedlohs]

No it isn't. The Latvian Lat is weaker against the euro in the last couple of years. Sure it is up a little this month (due to the euro having some issues), but that's off of multi-year lows.

You seriously the LVL is the "stronger" item in: http://www.google.com//finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1319647789518&chddm=1845016&cmpto=CURRENCY:AUDEUR&cmptdms=0&q=CURRENCY:LVLEUR&

Re:Why ignore US?

[toadlife]

There is no point to the debt ceiling. It's completely redundant. The debt ceiling is set every time congress approves a budget. It's a grandstanding tool.

Re:Why ignore US?

[caius112]

Just what is your idea of Eastern Europe? Czechs and Poles living in mud huts, having trouble finding drinking water? Please educate yourself next time before making an incredibly ignorant comment.

Re:Why ignore US?

[RavenManiac]

Nokia phones are nearly indestructible [unless you submerge them when turned on], and they have far better reception than almost any other phone.

US network companies don't want a phone that won't break, and work too well. Customers won't pay for new phones so often. My husband is still using my 2004 Nokia phone--it's rubber. OTOH my son gave me his 2 yr old [permanently locked] iPhone to use as an iPod when the screen and back both cracked.

My 6 year old Nokia phone has multitasking and a camera. My N79 [2008] has a front facing camera, and 5 mpx back camera. N8 same with touch screen, 12 mpx camera. FFC is a standard and doesn't have to be even mentioned. iPhone was one of the last to get one, and last to use FFC for calls instead of just WiFi. Sony Ericcson had a phone for video calls [not just chat] 8 years ago. Phones with FFC have been very popular in Japan since 2005, Europe since 2007, but are the latest new shiny objects in the US.

Re:Why ignore US?

[RavenManiac]

iPhone in China? VERY popular. Only they call it the HiPhone, and it's much cheaper.

Re:Why ignore US?

[s73v3r]

Well, speculation was that Microsoft got Nokia on board due to their strength in the European markets, where WP7 was doing particularly bad. It might be an effort on their part to try and shore up those markets first, before trying again in the US.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Teun]

And that's why Nokia is not selling the N9 in their primary EU markets like DE, GB and NL.

I have nothing against them trying to sell a Windows based phone but as an investor I'm really pissed off with them destroying, as the N900, N950 and ultimately the N9 proves, a great investment just to scratch the urge of an ex-MS boss.

We'll have to wait and see how the user experience pans out.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Bill Dimm]

And almost all Europeans can afford a smart phone...I thought that it was the US, rather than Europe, where customers couldn't pay their own bills anymore...

Irrelevant. Americans will buy smart phones even if they can't afford them.

Re:Why ignore US?

[janimal]

My parents live just outside of Redmond, WA. Their house does not have cellular coverage at all - never mind data.

Re:Why ignore US?

[kimvette]

Nokia apparently isn't well known in the US

10-12 years ago they were the phone to get because they just worked - they did their job well, and no one expected more than a few features from their phones (basic calendar, contacts, and maybe paging/texting). Once feature phones and smartphones (smartphones existed then but were somewhat rare and quite expensive, and mostly WinCE based) gained traction and Nokia didn't wholeheartedly embrace that trend to retain their market share, others took their place. They have had a few decent offerings in recent years but without an app market base to match the competition and very little promotion of their smartphones, it was too little, too late.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Baavgai]

Simple, to get coverage in the US you have to play politics with the big telecos. If you don't need that headache, why not avoid it?

In most European countries you just buy the phone and the SIM and off you go. Some of the practices of American service providers are actually illegal in other countries.

Sorry to break it to you, since apparently hadn't noticed before, but when it comes to mobile devices, Americans are used to paying more for less.

Re:Why ignore US?

[daem0n1x]

The 2 million Portuguese poor and the 800.000 unemployed would like to thank you for your kind words. It's nice to be called corrupt and profligate when we've been sharply losing our income and social benefits while the 1% richer added 17% to their already bloated fortunes in 2010.

As to that Merkel cunt and bastard Sarkozy, they never complained when our corrupt rulers were destroying our industry and agriculture to buy from France and Germany, allowing them to expand their economies because we can't devalue our currency to keep competitive.

As to the European banking sector, I couldn't care less about them. All the banks should be nationalised and the bankers fired. They're treated like sacred cows for doing a job my grandmother could do better. Why should we working people be paying for their extravagances?

Re:Why ignore US?

[ColdWetDog]

Technically speaking China would probably have the highest number of users or potential users based on population. However, I don't think people making $2 an hour have obtaining a smart phone at the top of their got to have list.

Oopsie (tl;dr China is Apple's second largest market, and climbing fast). Take a look at China, Inc. It's a very, very big place. It is much more complex than you seem to think.

Re:Why ignore US?

[NeutronCowboy]

As to that Merkel cunt and bastard Sarkozy, they never complained when our corrupt rulers were destroying our industry and agriculture to buy from France and Germany, allowing them to expand their economies because we can't devalue our currency to keep competitive.

Couple of points: you voted those corrupt rulers into place. Not only that, but you clearly didn't haul them into court for corruption. So the people are in power because you put them there, and because you kept them there. Start blaming yourself for that situation. Furthermore, the reason you can't devalue your currency is also the reason your country has access to cheap credit. I didn't hear anyone complain about that, either.

So to all the PIIGS countries: start looking in the mirror before blaming others for the sorry state of your economies. 90% of your problems can only be fixed by yourself.

Re:Why ignore US?

[John Jamieson]

I'm not sure who is ignorant here.

Europe goes east of Poland, and there are some poor countries there.
The poorest is very poor by our standards, "Moldova remains the poorest country in Europe in terms of earnings per capita which currently stands at $1,808.729"

Re:Why ignore US?

[Zorpheus]

Strange thing is that Nokia has a very long tradition in building smartphones. But they did not sell them in the US, I also don't know why.
And they never really started selling them. When the iPhone came out it was too late, since it was slightly better than what they had.

Re:Why ignore US?

[NeutronCowboy]

Yeah, that's what I thought: all sound and fury, no actual action. Ready to blame everyone but themselves for a budget deficit that was 100% the making of the national countries.

Re:Why ignore US?

[daem0n1x]

At least get your data straight, you ignorant.

Re:Why ignore US?

[cavreader]

I've visited China 3 times in the past 5 years and if you get outside of the major cities most of the people you see have not prospered as much as those in the big cities. I enjoyed all my visits to China but I still wonder how an elite class of millionaires and billionaires get created in a system publicly advertised as adhering to communist principles and focused at providing equality across the board for the average worker.

Re:Why ignore US?

[GigaplexNZ]

US network companies don't want a phone that won't break, and work too well. Customers won't pay for new phones so often.

I'm pretty sure the carriers would be just fine if you didn't keep replacing your phone subsidised out of their pockets. They make a profit on the service, not the handset.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Anthony Mouse]

The majority of users will choose Android one way or another. But if Nokia gives them the choice, they might choose Android-on-Nokia rather than Android-on-[Samsung | HTC | Motorola | whatever].

Re:Why ignore US?

[mjwx]

I dont understand why dont nokia launch in US also?

1. You're not as big as you think you are. Asia and Europe are larger markets, especially for Nokia.
2. Your telco system is, well lets not sugar coat it, fucked up. You have two different mobile communications standards (CDMA and GSM) and even when the standard is the same, the frequency is not. This means they need to release at least 2 if not more versions of the same handset. This is an expensive task.
3. Your telco system is fucked up. I know I mentioned this before but it;s that big of an issue it needs to be said twice.
4. Nokia needs to court telco's, modifying software to allow them to shove crap on there and ensuring that end users cant accidentally access premium services like tethering.
5. Your patent system is fucked up.
6. Your patent system is fucked up.
7. Your patent system is fucked up. This needs to be mentioned 3 times because it's that much of a problem, Nokia needs to modify the OS and hardware to avoid the lawsuit minefield of the US.
8 Anti-European sentiment in the US. Asian manufacturers such as HTC and Samsung do not have the same sentiment applied to them.

Put simply, it's cheaper to release in Europe and the same version will also work in Asia and the Middle East. Concentrating on the US market will cut out a lot of other countries.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Alex Belits]

There are still people in Moldova?

Re:Why ignore US?

[SomeStupidNickName12]

You are an example of what is wrong with the western/European world - stop complaining and do something about it! Your leaders were elected by you and your fellow country men, they screwed up your country not Merkel or Sarkozy. When some people are receiving 5 different state pensions and retiring at 45, of course the country is going to collapse

Why is it that Germany is still in such a strong position with half of Europe failing into a hole? Because the country was run properly.

Best course of action now would be for Germany and France to just invade and annex the rest of Europe. At least their governments know how to run a country.

Re:Why ignore US?

[justforgetme]

The best thing for Nokia to do now is to release their phones with a choice of several OS's

Or drop dead?

Re:Why ignore US?

[sourcerror]

My point was that only PIIGS is in trouble, and that there are quite a few countries in EU that actually do better than the US (Scandinavia,Germany). So on the average the difference isn't that big. Also, there are quite a few smartphones in Eastern Europe as well, even though this is supposed to be the poorer part.

Re:Why ignore US?

[lars_stefan_axelsson]

Europe goes east of Poland, and there are some poor countries there. The poorest is very poor by our standards, "Moldova remains the poorest country in Europe in terms of earnings per capita which currently stands at $1,808.729"

No it doesn't. Poland is an EU-member state. The countries to the east of it are not. Never have been, and probably never will. When the wall came down it was pretty clear which of the eastern european countries that belonged in the EU right of the bat and which didn't. The states you refer to have never been considered part of "Europe" in any sense other than a narrow geographic one. (The one that says that "Europe" runs to the Ural mountains; and even that is in contention). To call Moldova part of Europe would get you laughed out of the room. That would be like me going to the US and say "Yes, I know several of your countrymen, Americans from Mexico and Canada..."

Re:Why ignore US?

[Alioth]

Actually, Italy haven't been profligate for years, they have been taking more tax revenue than they spend, and paying down their old loans.

The problem for Italy now is that the ratings agencies are downgrading them, and thus causing the interest they have to pay to increase, such that they will no longer have a balanced budget, causing them to be more likely to default, causing their rating to be downgraded again, increasing interest payment still further, making the budget deficit increase, causing their rating... and so on. Basically, in the case of Italy the ratings agencies are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they had never had downgraded Italy, Italy would still today be taking more tax revenues than they were spending, and would still be paying back their loans.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Custard Horse]

Speaking from the UK I can safely say that we saw the Germans off the last couple of times. They would be unwise to try to annex us in a hurry. They can have Belgium though, you know, as a consolation prize.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Custard Horse]

I think you may have spotted the fundamental problem with communism. You need a manual workforce who knows no better and someone to lead that workforce.

The problem with capitalism is that education leads to a top heavy management structure - we all want to be managers and noone wants to be the workers.

We're doomed.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Custard Horse]

Even gangsters have time to play Angry Birds.

Re:Why ignore US?

[Custard Horse]

I skimmed over your post came out the other end thinking I could get a smartphone with the Nutella OS. It made sense (in my mind) for around a second...

Re:Why ignore US?

[cavreader]

Capitalism seems to perpetuate competition that both the citizens and companies participate in. The premise being the more successful you are the higher standard of living you will obtain. In a strictly enforced communist or extreme socialist based system the incentive to better yourself is reduced because those who chose not to educate themselves or dedicate themselves to hard work receive the same benefits as those who chose the exact opposite. The equal distribution of rewards (ie money) across an entire population only ensures that everyone is equally poor except of course for the people at the top who are implementing and enforcing the system. The people marching for more economic equality have valid concerns but any real changes will probably effect their grand children more than it would help them. The extremists who support bringing the current system crashing down in total are taking the very real chance that the resulting chaos and anarchy will eclipse the level of suffering people are experiencing today by a long shot.

Re:Why ignore US?

[SomeStupidNickName12]

Was thinking they needed to start with Greece, nobody really likes them anyways

Re:Why ignore US?

[John Jamieson]

Yes, Canadians and Mexicans are not our countrymen, but they are Americans. The misuse of the term "American" is one of my pet peeves.

I never said ANYTHING about the EU. And how the heck is the geographical definition narrow? Next time cite an authoritative source for your continental boundary dispute.

Just because you think little of them, does not exclude them from your continent. You remind me of when I was in Italy, everywhere I went the people considered themselves the real Italians, not like those south of them. lol

"The states you refer to have never been considered part of "Europe"" -- funny that, why do all the economic studies on Europe and even Wikipedia include them???

Enough said, I probably should not have replied to a trolling post.

Re:Why ignore US?

[lars_stefan_axelsson]

And how the heck is the geographical definition narrow?

Because it concerns just geography. Not history, language, trade, etc. There are clear delineations that e.g. don't include the russians (many, most of which are "Europeans" by your definition).

Enough said, I probably should not have replied to a trolling post.

Not trolling. Just pointing out that you've made the usual american mistake of trying to understand Europe based on your knowledge of the US. Europe as a concept is very much different from "US with countries instead of states".

And the Italians are a rather interesting case in point. They are rather divisive even as a country, let alone the larger grouping. Don't try to understand pretty much anywhere in terms of what you learned in Italy...

Re:Why ignore US?

[John Jamieson]

You wrote "Just pointing out that you've made the usual american mistake of trying to understand Europe based on your knowledge of the US. Europe as a concept is very much different from "US with countries instead of states"."

I appreciate that many in the US might see it that way, but most other americans won't. Canadians are especially well traveled with a much more developed world view (on average).

We could go on all day about where the boundries were historically, which people derived from each other, whether Finlanders are really Scandinavian etc.
The original poster talked about eastern Europe, not western Europe, not the EU and not even ancient Europe. As a result my reply was based on eastern Europe as it is commonly defined Today, whether anyone likes the boundries (or other peoples) or not.

John

P.S. Yes, I picked Italy out of all the divided countries to point out that it is common for people to distance themselves from others that are grouped with them.

ha en god dag

Re:Why ignore US?

[lars_stefan_axelsson]

whether Finlanders are really Scandinavian

Take it from a Swede, the Finns may be many things, and called many things, but "Scandinavian" isn't usually something we accuse them of being. :-)

I think you mean "nordic", as that usually is how "norden" is translated. As for explaining our relationship I like the old soc.culture.nordic statement: "We're like one big family. Not one big *happy* family mind you, no more like any old family." :-)

As for "Eastern europe" we'll just have to agree to disagree. After all, quoting wikipedia "Eastern Europe is the eastern part of Europe. The term is highly context-dependent and even volatile, as there are "almost as many definitions of Eastern Europe as there are scholars of the region"[1]."

Re:Why ignore US?

[badkarmadayaccount]

Dual mode phones have been presented. Frequency is even less of an issue. It's mostly DSP code and an extra capacitor or two. Otherwise, I agree.

Re:Why ignore US?

[mjwx]

Dual mode phones have been presented. Frequency is even less of an issue. It's mostly DSP code and an extra capacitor or two. Otherwise, I agree.

I probably wasn't specific enough.

Yep, you can get dual mode phones, it may only be a few $ per unit difference, but when we're talking a million units... It's a lot of money. The overwhelming majority of telco's in the world use GSM/HSPA so it does not make economic sense to produce dual mode phones for a worldwide market. Rather they wait for a demand from (or offer to) CDMA carriers for a modified version which is sold at a higher cost then the main version. Plus the cost of passing various regulatory agencies, the EU, Japan, Australia and others all have their own version of the FCC, dual mode phones are a bit more expensive so why produce them for regions that have no CDMA carriers.

When I mentioned this, I was thinking from the economic angle rather then the technology angle. Also, quad band GSM chips (850/900/1900/2100) have become cheap and ubiquitous, but this is a very recent development.

Re:Why ignore US?

[badkarmadayaccount]

Frequencies are overlapping. And 3G and up standards implement CDMA processing anyway. Unless you are making single band dumb phones with voice+SMS only, there is no price difference, assuming the engineers know what they are doing.

Why Windows?

[Demoknight]

Anyone have any insight into why Nokia went with WP7 instead of riding the Android bandwagon? Wouldn't Moto be it's only "classic" competitor in the Android phone market?

Hmmph.

Re:Why Windows?

[marcello_dl]

It's a long term strategy. Basically Nokia wants to sell itself to MS or some other group at bargain prices.

Or, at least, this is what the current schizophrenic tactics of its management suggest.

Re:Why Windows?

[morcego]

Who cares ? At this point in time, after so many bad decisions on top of each other, Nokia is the new Caldera.
Expect to see it start suing other companies left and right to try and keep afloat. It won't happen rightaway, cause they still make alot of money on non-smart phones, specially in 3rd world countries, but it will happen sometimes in the next 3 years or so.

Re:Why Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

They most likely went with WP7 because Elop was a Microsoft executive. So he already had connections with MS and knew how it would be to work with the company.

Re:Why Windows?

[gstrickler]

Two major factors:
1. Nokia's CEO Stephen Elop was a senior exec for M$ prior being hired as Nokia's CEO
2. M$ offered ~ $1B in incentives to Nokia.

Re:Why Windows?

[_|()|\|]

Anyone have any insight into why Nokia went with WP7 instead of riding the Android bandwagon?

Nokia Has a Billion Reasons To Love WP7.

Re:Why Windows?

[phishtahko]

No insight needed. Elop said Google didn't want to give them any input/advance info into Android and they had no way to differentiate properly with it. MS gave them input into WP and they feel they have a bigger chance of differentiating with it.

Re:Why Windows?

[Eponymous Coward]

It's the other way around. Nokia wanted insider access to Microsoft and so they hired Elop.

Re:Why Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because other OEMs are giving their all on android, fierce competition. Nokia will be the only one doing so on Windows Phone.

Re:Why Windows?

[DrXym]

Anyone have any insight into why Nokia went with WP7 instead of riding the Android bandwagon? Wouldn't Moto be it's only "classic" competitor in the Android phone market?

I expect Nokia rigourously weighed up all the technical merits of every competing smart phone operating system and then chose Windows Phone when Microsoft waved a big wad of money under their nose. It makes little sense for any other reason.

Nokia has gone from providing the entire user experience, software and hardware to being just another pretty phone that runs Microsoft's operating system.

Re:Why Windows?

[Luckyo]

Take a look at the nice horse on the top.

Re:Why Windows?

[Luckyo]

No offense, but Elops says a lot of things. Most of them are utterly stupid, like bitching about symbian that has carried a company through last year, and is still growing in spite of CEO telling everyone who bothered to listen to him how much it sucked.

Want a recent example? Nokia unveils it's new phones. Stock jumps up.

Elop steps on stage and starts talking. Stock plummets.

I'm not kidding. It's hilarious just how bad of a speaker he is.

Re:Why Windows?

[0123456]

Because other OEMs are giving their all on android, fierce competition. Nokia will be the only one doing so on Windows Phone.

Probably because no-one in their right mind wants to run Windows on their phone.

Re:Why Windows?

[91degrees]

Amongst other reasons, product differentiation.

WP7 has an interface that may or may not be better than the other two major OSs but is clearly different. Some people may prefer it.

If they make an Android phone, they're latecomers to an already crowded market. Why should someone buy a Nokia device when HTC have a range of products, so do Motorola, so do Samsung, so do LG. What can Nokia do to persuade people to buy their phone instead?

Betting on WP7 is a gamble, but it does have the chance of a big payoff, and Microsoft's backing isn't something to be sneezed at.

Re:Why Windows?

[theVarangian]

Two major factors:
1. Nokia's CEO Stephen Elop was a senior exec for M$ prior being hired as Nokia's CEO
2. M$ offered ~ $1B in incentives to Nokia.

Nevertheless, they seem to be hedging their bets and they'd be dumb if they didn't. Apparently Nokia just confirmed that the N9 MeeGo phone will be 'fully supported'

Re:Why Windows?

[Steve Max]

That's exactly why I started with "Elop says".

Re:Why Windows?

[Tsingi]

Because android is a race to the bottom where the phones become commodities and any no name manufacturer in china can duplicate your r&d for next to nothing. There is no money to be made in android.

True enough, meaning that smart phones in general are now a commodity.

In other words, Android phones will become very inexpensive killing off all non-fanboi competition until someone comes up with a device that is enough of an advancement in function or design to command a premium.

iPhones will have to either drop to a competitive price or sales will plummet, but Apple has a loyal customer base, so they will survive.

Windows phones don't have market share, once again Ballmer is late to the party. They will have to be very very good or very very inexpensive to compete. Neither is likely.

It will be interesting to see what Apple does next, sans Steve.

Re:Why Windows?

[Flambergius]

This has been covered widely in the business media, best article probably being from Bloomberg
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_24/b4232056703101.htm

Why not Android:
[Elop] tried to negotiate a deal with Google to run Android, but Google refused to give the world's biggest phonemaker any advantages over its smaller partners, meaning Nokia's corps of 11,600 engineers would have next to no ability to add their own innovations to Google's software. "It just didn't feel right," Elop says to the crowd. "We'd be just another company distributing Android. That's not Nokia! We need to fight!"

Why Windows Phone:
Elop says his software deal with Microsoft was misconstrued as a Hail Mary to the receiver with the worst hands in the business. Microsoft had just 4 percent of the overall market prior to the Nokia deal. What Nokia didn't gain in market share, however, it hopes to gain in flexibility. The contract grants Nokia the right to stuff almost any innovation it can muster into its Windows Phones

Re:Why Windows?

[gstrickler]

Actually, it's far less relevant today than nine years ago. Gates actually had some focus on the products. Ballmer is focused on the money. M$ is much more applicable today than at any time in their history.

Re:Why Windows?

[s73v3r]

meaning Nokia's corps of 11,600 engineers would have next to no ability to add their own innovations to Google's software.

That line is complete horseshit. Not having "special access" hasn't stopped Samsung or HTC or Motorola from coming out with unique phones with their own innovations.

Re:Why Windows?

[Patch86]

If they make an Android phone, they're latecomers to an already crowded market. Why should someone buy a Nokia device when HTC have a range of products, so do Motorola, so do Samsung, so do LG. What can Nokia do to persuade people to buy their phone instead?

Nokia is a big brand in their own right, with a surprisingly loyal user base. Many people would buy a Nokia Android phone over a HTC one just for the brand name. However "Android or WP7" would probably trump "Samsung or Nokia" as the deciding issue for most people.

I call rubbish on the interface comment too. Android's interface is highly customizeable by the vendor (most of the vendors have their own distinct style), whereas with WP7 there will be a much bigger element of "it comes the way it comes".

Re:Why Windows?

[Flambergius]

Unique phones, but unique because of their own features or because of design and branding? I'll admit that I'm no expert on Android, so others will have to decide what shade of grey we're dealing with there. More to the point, that's "why Windows", is that it seems fairly clear that Nokia felt that Microsoft was willing to give them a special access while Google wasn't. Later in the article Elop is quoted saying basically that Google acted like they had already won. I can imagine that being a hard issue to negotiate around.

Re:Why Windows?

[RightSaidFred99]

I would think it's fairly obvious - the world doesn't need Yet Another Android Maker. They took a big gamble on WP7, either it'll pay off or they're screwed. Going Android wouldn't be a gamble but would have very little upside. And regardless of the neckbeard tittering around here, WP7 has a lot of potential and Nokia could be the premier WP7 phone maker.

Re:Why Windows?

[RightSaidFred99]

Bullshit. All of those phones are basically the same, with lesser or better hardware being the main differentiation.

Re:Why Windows?

[leaen]

SImple $1000000000 gift from microsoft .

Re:Why Windows?

[nightfell]

Only the names and uniforms have changed.

Re:Why Windows?

[yorugua]

AS an owner of two Nokia Smartphones, I won't be buying MS phones, no matter what. And I would have a Nokia Android phone by now, if there was one.

Re:Why Windows?

[91degrees]

Fair enough. I'm mainly going by my own opinions. I did like my Nokia 3510i all those years ago. I don't think I'd be much interested in a Nokia Android phone than one from any of the other major companies. WP7 is at least intriguing and Nokia seem to be the best brand supporting that.

Nokia are clearly hoping there are more people with my views than with yours. We'll have to wait and see to find out if there are.

Re:Why Windows?

[djlowe]

whats M$?

It's a string variable in very old versions of BASIC :)

Re:Why Windows?

[Tom]

Betting on WP7 is a gamble, but it does have the chance of a big payoff, and Microsoft's backing isn't something to be sneezed at.

Contrary to Apple and Google, however, Nokia isn't better some department that may or may not grow big. They're betting the farm.

If I had Nokia stocks, I'd be selling them as fast as I can. But maybe that's just because I'm not a gambler and don't particularily enjoy the thrill of maybe losing everything.

Re:Why Windows?

[mjwx]

If they make an Android phone, they're latecomers to an already crowded market. Why should someone buy a Nokia device when HTC have a range of products, so do Motorola, so do Samsung, so do LG. What can Nokia do to persuade people to buy their phone instead?

Besides the Nokia brand?

The biggest problem with getting into the Android market is hardware. Nokia have this problem licked. They can release new Ice Cream Sandwich handsets and compete directly with HTC and Samsung. The dont have to build up a brand, they dont have to do an extensive hardware R&D cycle. They can use some of their existing designs, which makes developing a new phone cheaper. Nokia has some very nice HW but has always failed in the OS area. Android could have fixed this.

Re:Why Windows?

[asdf7890]

Focussing on the figurehead gives you the impression that the company overall has changed more than I think it has.

Gates started as the man who made the company, but by 2000-and-somthing his was more a figure head than a driving force (unlike Jobs, who managed to be both until handing over the reigns some months before his death, as a counter example). Ballmer is also not a single-man driving force, but he is lacking something that in Bill made that ignorable. He is a company man rather than a man that builds companies, as you point out.

You are not seeing the man with Ballmer: you are seeing the company under him. And I don't think that has changed nearly as much in the last ten years as the difference between Gales and Ballmer.

Re:Why Windows?

[91degrees]

Besides the Nokia brand?

The others I mention have developed a good brand image. Nokia could release a new handset running Ice Cream Sandwich. So could Samsung, HTC, Motorola and LG. Anything Nokia does, they can also do, but the people who already have Android phones will most likely stick with the brand they have when they upgrade (which will not be Nokia), so Nokia just gets 20% of new users. Maybe slightly more from people switching from Symbian. There's nothing Nokia can offer that the others can.

OTOH, they get a huge quantity of the people switching to WP7. I guess the other established smartphone companies could push as hard as Nokia in those markets as well, but the point is, they're not doing so. That would mean splitting their efforts between the established Android brand where they already have a good market share and the high risk Windows brand.

Re:Why Windows?

[SomeStupidNickName12]

Don't write off WM7 - its actually pretty decent and makes a lot of sense for business users part of the MS ecosystem. Nokia/WM7 could easily become the defacto standard for mobile business solutions

With Apple's strategy for dealing with large corporates being at best non-existent and at worst retarded this wouldn't be that hard.

Re:Why Windows?

[s73v3r]

More to the point, that's "why Windows", is that it seems fairly clear that Nokia felt that Microsoft was willing to give them a special access while Google wasn't.

The point is, they don't need "special access". Samsung, HTC, and Motorola have been able to come up with unique phones with their own features despite not having "special access". Again, there's nothing stopping Nokia from doing whatever they want to Android.

Meh

[DrgnDancer]

it doesn't stand out. There's nothing in the announcement that isn't something already available on Android and iPhone. Apple and the Android vendors can afford to play games where they leapfrog each other than catch up, then leapfrog again... They're established names in the market and people want an iPhone, a Droid, or A Galaxy as much because they like the brands as because they do something the other guy doesn't. To jump into the market this late in the game Nokia/Microsoft need something new, something to pull people away from their established preferences.

Re:Meh

[Anonymous Coward]

"MS services connections" is not likely to get me to draw my wallet....

Re:Meh

[UnknowingFool]

I think the original plan was for Nokia to design and release something special. But then they realized that would take 18 months and they would get further behind. So instead they are doing a quick release to get something into the market while working on larger ambitions.

Re:Meh

[obarthelemy]

It doesn't really have to:
- Nokia is very well connected with carriers, so they should get shelf space and deals with no problem
- most Nokia users are quite happy with the quality, if not features, of their phone. Nokia should have easy sales there
- Hero phones and oddballs don't really sell that much. The latest commodity smartphone (not Apple then ^^) to have a huge success is the Galaxy S 2. It really doesn't have outstanding specs, except maybe for its camera. It's its a well done, light, solid phone, that's it. I'll be getting a Galaxy Note soon, but everyone thinks I'm crazy.

Re:Meh

[Anonymous Coward]

To be honest, Windows Phone 7 actually looks kinda good... the UI is slick, it seems pretty fast and win 7 looks to be a decent competitor to iPhone and Android... I am not a huge MS fan, but give credit where credit is due - they actually did something pretty slick here.

Re:Meh

[Tsingi]

... To jump into the market this late in the game Nokia/Microsoft need something new, something to pull people away from their established preferences.

15 years ago the only phone I would buy was a Nokia. The phones worked well and the interface was intuitive. Now they don't even hit my radar.

I think we are about to witness the death of a giant.

Re:Meh

[janimal]

Uh. Awesome navigation?
I'm also expecting the UI to be among the smoothest out there.

Re:Meh

[s73v3r]

That stuff has already been out for at least a year, if not more, on other WP7 handsets. They aren't selling.

Re:Meh

[WolfgangPG]

A pretty good video comparing How WP7.5 does things vs how iOS 5 does things: http://zollotech.com/2011/10/21/ios5-vs-wp7-mango-thorough-overview/

Re:Meh

[Imbrondir]

Sounds like Nokias unsuccessful plan for the last 5 years.

Re:Meh

[thetoadwarrior]

I think it tries far too hard to be cool. I don't want interfaces that don't fit on the screen

Re:Meh

[Just Some Guy]

I kinda presumed they just did.

Re:Meh

[Trogre]

I think they just did.

Re:Meh

[__aazsst3756]

What has to stand out is the OS and the ecosystem, with solid hardware. Right now if you do not like iOS, your choice is Android.

Android has many issues from fragmentation, to very inconsistent user interfaces that vary by brand, to an app store with regular malware culling, to battery life issues, to out of date builds with no updates. To say there is not room for another solid competitor is simply wrong. While Android is growing like crazy, survey data is suggesting people are buying on price or dislike for iOS, and are not that in love with the actual OS (the dreaded "would you buy again" question).

WP7 brings a lot to the table. Perhaps the best OS of the three? The answer will depend on personal taste of how you expect your OS to function, but certainly has a very well thought out and original interface.

Microsoft is building an ecosystem that ties into their Xbox platform, and entertainment platform that Android lacks. (Outside of Amazon's and similar, which is why they will succeed).

It uses windows development tools that are very solid, and have an army of windows developers. iOS and Android developers will not have terrible difficulty porting their apps. Microsoft has the resources to develop apps equal to or better than Googles (except search *cough*).

Many of the Advantages of Android over iOS will likely not exist with the WP7 ecosystem. For example a wide range of hardware and multiple price points. Most likely companies will build one device, and sell models with both OS's.

They are just now shipping competitive hardware, and the OS is really just now starting to mature. Sales will take off soon.

Just a quick non researched reply, but obviously WP7 has enough compelling reasons for it to exist. While I likely will not buy one, I wish them well, competition is good.

 

Re:Meh

[AmiMoJo]

most Nokia users are quite happy with the quality, if not features, of their phone. Nokia should have easy sales there

Nokia has been flapping about with half-baked smart phones for years, and even after Android and the iPhone appeared they couldn't get it right. They seem to have a love of stupid form factors and crappy controls (like the little joysticks they used to love).

Even Nokia's basic phones are naff. My mum has one and the interface is terrible. A low end Android phone is much easier to use.

To stave off the obvious...

[ryzvonusef]

Here is a comparison:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/26/nokia-lumia-800-vs-nokia-n9-the-tale-of-the-tape/

Also, 4 S40 cellphones (The Asha series) and another Budget WP7 (Lumia 710) cellphone were also announced, and discreetly, a white version of the N9 was also displayed.

The way the N9 was displayed. it was almost like Nokia was embarrassed or something, most sites didn't even notice it was there.

Re:To stave off the obvious...

[impaledsunset]

Or because Microsoft was embarrassed that Nokia was still selling it?

Re:To stave off the obvious...

[Sez Zero]

So the "new" Lumina weighs more, has a smaller screen, no front-facing camera, less RAM, a less capable radio AND runs Windows.

Sure sounds like a winner to me!

Re:To stave off the obvious...

[LucidBeast]

I need to get myself one of those white N9 phones... Having an Apple or Microsoft phone ruins my geek karma

Re:To stave off the obvious...

[Xacid]

Video calling. And yes.

Re:To stave off the obvious...

[thetoadwarrior]

It's because the N9 is better than the Windows Phones.

Re:To stave off the obvious...

[thetoadwarrior]

Double the memory vs a couple extra hours of battery life. For every plus the Windows phone has it's minimal at best.

The N9 (16gb the low end model which compares to the WP7) is 480 euros which is £418. Cnet says the 800 will cost £450 from carphone warehouse so it's not cheaper. Sounds like they'll be close and it will depend on who you go with. Though most people will go with a contract. If the N9 expected to be less popular then I'd expect it to have better deals. Unless you're in the US of course where they fuck you up the butt on mobile phones no matter what.

Re:To stave off the obvious...

[scoobertron]

I do, been using skype on my n900 for the last year or so.

Re:To stave off the obvious...

[Xacid]

It takes one false result to negate a tautology. I use it.

Reason it never caught on is because the tech isn't there for it in a big reliable way yet. My daughter and wife go up to Canada for a couple months at a time to see family and I use the piss out of skype at home. I'd love to have the same capabilities on my phone. I use what I can but it's usually the network gets too choppy and the quality isnt as good as if I was on a laptop.

Re:To stave off the obvious...

[the linux geek]

Ignoring VAT... nice.

Re:To stave off the obvious...

[Joe Jay Bee]

Tru dat.

Back when 3G first came about in the UK, video calling was going to be the new big thing. The first 3G network, Three, was pushing video calling in its ads, all of its phones had front-facing cameras (I had a Motorola C975, which was a budget phone and even that had a front facing camera) and it was touted as one of the biggest features on the network, with dedicated buttons and everything on their launch phones.

And now...? Fuck all. It didn't interest anyone. There are very few scenarios in which video calling is a good idea compared to voice calling or text messaging, and even they don't justify the ridiculous cost (51p per minute, right now. Not at launch, now. I just looked up the prices now.). That was when it even worked, which it rarely did, and when it did it had appalling picture quality. They don't even mention it on their website now.

Apple have made some inroads into the market with FaceTime, and it's a valiant effort, but that's WiFi only and frankly I don't hear about people FaceTiming each other all that often.

Video calling makes sense when you're in front of a computer or another terminal. That's why Skype, Windows Live Messenger and to a certain extent iChat have been very well used. When you're out and about, not so much. Three learned this the hard (and very expensive) way.

2002 called and they want their...

[samjam]

So... Stephen Elop calls it 'the first real Windows Phone'

I thought this was the first windows phone: http://www.dcviews.com/press/Orange_SPV.htm

Orange was a Microsoft Gold Partner, and I wrote the Orange custom home screen software complete with easter-egg while working for Orange in Leeds.

Now I learn it was all just a dream... it wasn't a REAL windows phone at all... or maybe Elop is too young and inexperienced to remember recent history... ah well..

Re:2002 called and they want their...

[Daetrin]

Life is always so hard when you suffer from a compulsion to take marketing hyperbole literally. I suggest you avoid the TV and radio. If you hear commercials for two different products in close succession both claiming to be the best at the same thing your brain might explode. I can only hope you've already taken the safety precaution of blocking all ads on in your browser.

Re:2002 called and they want their...

[samjam]

I absolutely block all ads.

I even blocked your post, so I'm replying blind, and I hope the context fits!

On a serious note, you have just made the same point I was making; it's nice that we agree.

Re:2002 called and they want their...

[Anonymous Coward]

Orange.. Wasn't that the company that Microsoft screwed over with dishonest contract practices and withed funding?

Microsoft: Orange, we want you to develop CE in to a phone platform
Orange: Ok, we'll need funds to develop.
Micrsoft: Sure thing!
(Some time later)
Orange: Here's your phone platform. It's mostly done and we worked really hard on it to make this piece of shit OS stable enough to be useable as a phone. Sort of. Oh, remember that money you promised us?
Microsoft: Yeah.. We'll get right on that.
Orange: Shit. We're tits up because we ran out of money developing this phone platform.
Microsft: Sorry about that. Oh, by the way, there is a stipulation in the contract that gives us all the crap you worked on if you go bankrupt. Thanks for the free phone platform, cocksuckers.

The rest is history.

Re:2002 called and they want their...

[Jerry]

That was in 2002, when Microsoft's smartphone market share was around 14%. It's now around 2%, which explains what the consumers thought about Microsoft's smartphone software.

Re:2002 called and they want their...

[kelemvor4]

I had a similar dream, except in mine I was just a user of said device.

Re:2002 called and they want their...

[INeededALogin]

Orange: Shit. We're tits up because we ran out of money developing this phone platform.

Orange is one of the largest Cell Companies in the world. They definitely are not bankrupt or even close. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(telecommunications)

Re:2002 called and they want their...

[bill_mcgonigle]

Now I learn it was all just a dream... it wasn't a REAL windows phone at all... or maybe Elop is too young and inexperienced to remember recent history... ah well..

You see, for the most part WinCE-based phones have been a market failure.

Why?

Because Microsoft doesn't know what it's doing? Because their products are crap?

No, because there hasn't been a 'real' phone until now. So, all of that past failure can be forgiven, finally, right now, it's the new beginning.

And if this phone fails, it will be because it turned out it wasn't actually a 'real' Windows Phone. But the next launch will be.

Re:2002 called and they want their...

[UnknowingFool]

You mean Sendo

Re:2002 called and they want their...

[terjeber]

OK; so what you are saying is that Orange was a bunch of gullible idiots who didn't even know the phone number of a good lawyer. Why should anyone have sympathy for a company committing harakiri?

This is the stupidest headline ever

[Haxagon]

What the hell is a Windows 7 phone? The competitor the the Android google, and Phonei?

Re:This is the stupidest headline ever

[Pentavirate]

No you're not.

Re:This is the stupidest headline ever

[dreemernj]

The problem is that "Windows Phone 7 phone" sounds so stupid that they'd rather say the name of the OS wrong than put that in the headline. Given the way they named the OS, the phones that run it should probably put the name after the phone name when referring to it. The first line of the story probably should have said "Nokia has just launched its first phone running Windows Phone 7."

As a fan of WP7, things like this hurt me. I think the OS itself is quite beautiful and I would love to try it out for a period of time to see if I like it better than Android. But, chances are, before I get a chance to try it, bad marketing decisions will bury it.

Re:This is the stupidest headline ever

[Atzanteol]

Beautiful? Every time I see a WP7 video all I can think of is "what's with the Win 3.1 icon themes?" I realize this is probably something that can be changed but what moron at MS thought 2-tone fugly icons were the way to go?

That and the screens make me claustrophobic. I understand the concept of having things "trail" off screen to let you know there is more to be seen - but it makes me feel like I'm looking at a poster though a tube of toilet paper. I keep wanting to scroll out to see more...

Not trying to persuade, just my $0.02.

Why do they pulish their first nail?

[G3ckoG33k]

Why do they pulish their first nail, in the the infamous non-Appple/non-Android mobile phone market coffin?

However fine the N9 was, however fine this new one end up beinf, I guess it is too late. The market share for the software is not there The hardware perspective is not really there any longer.

It is all about the software, or, as it is perceived today, the "apps".

Whoever wins the apps, wins the market.

So, sorry Nokia, too late. Again!!!

Re:Why do they pulish their first nail?

[icebraining]

Yeah, except Meego can run Android apps. The problem is that Nokia is obviously uninterested in any OS besides WP7, which is a shame.

Re:Why do they pulish their first nail?

[muon-catalyzed]

Even Carmack said he will NOT develop for WP7 due to MS imposing some weird and seamingly stupid restrictions on programming the device. Seeing this other devs stay away and stick with trusty platforms like iPhone and Android. Meego was actually very good, it is a real shame Nokia is abandoning it.

Re:Why do they pulish their first nail?

[dudpixel]

If only nokia advertised that, but they had already sold their soul to the devil by then...

And silence....

[LWATCDR]

Flagship Phone but
Single Core.
Small screen same size as the iPhone but much lower pixel density. AKA resolution.
Not available in the US before Christmas.
Pros:
It is pretty.
Could have an outstanding camera.
The display is good but is it better then the iPhone4 display? I don't know.
In other words compared with the iPhone 4s and the Samsung Galaxy SII family that are already shipping it is lagging. WP7 Mango isn't terrible but it too is already start to "continuing to" lag behind IOS and Android.
So this flagship device is roughly as good as the $99 iPhone4 or a $99 Android handset but without the app catalog.
Really just not thrilling to anyone that isn't a Nokia or WP7 fanboi.
In other words it is a base hit but the other team has a 20 point lead and it is the top of the 7th inning.

Re:And silence....

[alexandre_ganso]

examples would be welcome.

Re:And silence....

[wvmarle]

So this flagship device is roughly as good as the $99 iPhone4 or a $99 Android handset but without the app catalog.

Where you get those phones so cheap? Last time I checked my fairly low-end LG P-500 model, one year old now, is currently selling at about USD 150 each. Haven't seen much cheaper Android handsets so far. I paid about double for it, when it was just released. The iPhone 4 is retailing here for more like USD 500 each.

Re:And silence....

[UnknowingFool]

I think that the AC is referring to WP7 integration with some services like FB. It's a mixed blessing. Yes you don't need a separate app like FB to do simple things like post a picture on FB; however, you can't do anything more complex or different than the scenarios outlined so you need to get the FB app. That defeats the purpose of the integration if you get the app. Same thing with twitter.

Re:And silence....

[LWATCDR]

I am using US carrier plus contract pricing.
If you want I restate it to "a new flag ship phone that is roughly the same as last years IOS and Android phones".
 

Re:And silence....

[ceoyoyo]

How is their single core, lower resolution screen phone as good as a dual core, high res iPhone 4? Maybe you meant the 3GS.

It sounds like they're two generations behind now.

Re:And silence....

[ceoyoyo]

He's giving subsidized prices. Everyone imagines that phones cost anywhere from free to a few hundred dollars - i.e. the deposit on a phone from a carrier. Just like houses only cost 5% of their listing price.

Re:And silence....

[LWATCDR]

Like? I don't see any real benefit to not having to us an app. After all apps are one of the main benefits of a smart phone.

Re:And silence....

[16K Ram Pack]

And really, that's just not a BFD. If Android saw that the world desperately used it and were moving to WP7 because of it, they'd soon get a release out that integrated it.

The whole thing with WP7 is two desperate companies getting together. Microsoft are basically throwing money at getting market share, and think that they're entitled to a large chunk of the market. But what kept Windows and Office in place (getting the lion's share of the market first, formats) just doesn't apply here. And while WP7 might do a few things better, the bulk of people are on Android.

What's funny to me is that MS are chasing Apple and Android when their natural home is stuff for corporates. They should be building a phone that's designed around all their business services, push email, Exchange and asp.net/winforms. Instead they've built a locked phone that's geared around silverlight, so for corporates, it's hopeless.

Re:And silence....

[LWATCDR]

Well because
The iPhone4 is a single core A4 Cortex8 cpu. which is probably slower than the single core Snapdragon in the Nokia phone. Here the Nokia is probably better but the the iPhone4s GPU is really good so it may make the difference. So it could go Nokia or Apple.
The iPhone4 only has a very good 5MP camera while it sounds like the Nokia has a very good 8MP camera with really good optics. Apple has a very good camera Nokia often has great cameras. The new Nokia may actually be better than not just the 4 but the 4s in the camera department.
Screen same size as the iPhone but no where near the resolution. Nokia's LCDs are very good but this is a big win for the iPhone 4.
OS. Some people really like WP7 but IOS is very solid and over all it's much larger users base is very happy with it. I give the win to IOS for now.
Apps. I don't care what people say. IOS has not just a huge App catalog but a huge number of the best apps. Win for the iPhone.
I think you where confusing the 4 with the 4s.
So Nokia may have a better CPU but that is only a maybe and you need to test the GPU as well.
Nokia has a better camera most likely.
The iPhone4 has a better display, larger app catalog, and a rock solid an mature OS with a huge number of apps, a lot of high quality apps, and a huge developer base.
I would say about equal and yes I am putting a large amount of value on the display because that is how you interact with these devices. The Nokia may actually be a bit better than say the 4 or Evo but those are old phones. It is not in the same category as the 4s or Samsung Galaxy II.

Re:And silence....

[fiddley]

Single Core - True, the iPhone 4s computationally flies, but I don't think this will hold the Nokia back. Gaming may be the exception here, but as long as the developers know the platform they're aiming for they're good at compromising (360 vs the more powerful PS3 for eg - there are differences in the games but you have to be eagle eyed to spot them) for day to day phone/email/music/internet etc, well, I've got a slower Win phone than that, with Mango, and I'm trying to think of a time where I wished it would hurry up, but can't. Need for Speed is probably the biggest CPU killer I've got on there and I've noticed very occasional slowdowns, but hey, it's not like it's a COD deathmatch or anything :-)

Pixel Density is not that great, but Super AMOLED whoops backlit LED out of the park - the colours saturation and contrast are simply amazing. Seeing the two side by side and the iPhone looks like one of those ancient LCD color efforts - despite the extra pixels. I think Android potentially has the edge here, with it's many platforms able to regularly push the envelope on what's possible, although I don't think there's been an AMOLED with the density of the iPhone - now *that* would be awesome.

No US launch before Christmas - yep, that's a massive air swing, but with Nokia circling the toilet, this launch is damage control, the next one will be the biggie.

Pro's

I don't know about the camera either - Nokia are usually pretty solid in that space though.

The N9-alike (what's it called again??) is a nice bit of kit, feels really solid and nice in your hand. It's a smidge smaller than my Omnia 7, which sharpens up the display a bit. The only thing that's weird - NO USER SERVICABLE BATTERY! How much flack do Apple get for that??

I'm not sure WP is actually lagging iOS - the core functions are there, it's solid. Massively in it's favor are things like the way it consolidates all your different data sources (LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Outlook, Gmail, Hotmail etc etc) is unmatched anywhere. For me I like, for example, the way facebook events and My exchange calendar are now one - the number of times I've turned up bleary eyed for a meeting I've scheduled because I forgot it's so and so's birthday the night before... and they're right in your face on the lock screen. It's like MS have just gone, f*ck this, let's go over the top and be the number one aggregator. FB, twitter et al do all the underlying hard work and Microsft gives you this single window where everything comes together. It's fricken awesome! Also you don't have to plug in to all these services if you don't want to, but as far as I can see that's the biggest benefit of the platform. iOS is nice and all, but feels so last century compared to WP. Android usability is a bag of nails in comparison. (I know, I know, Android comes in to its own when you like to tinker, but on my phone, I don't, nor do lots of people, as evidenced by iPhone. YMMV)

The phone is comparable in price to a iPhone 4s, Build quality is similar, although the iPhone still has the edge on style I guess. Comparable featuresets which I think is better in some key areas.

The Windows Phone app store is lacking in absolute numbers right now but they've got one of every sort of app as far as I can tell. The problem is network effect, where all your mates are playing an iPhone version of scrabble or whatever, but you can't join in even though you've got a good scrabble game yourself. However, it's still nice when random people on the tube are interested in your phone because they've never seen one before (I've STILL not seen a single other Windows phone user in the wild!) still that's only a bonus if you've got no life I guess :)

You'll probably guess that I'm a bit of a fanboi, but I earn my living implementing MS tech, and wanted WP7 because Apple is the new Burberry, and Android is like making clothes yourself. It's fun putting together a Microsft platform at home that, like the fruit compa

Re:And silence....

[21mhz]

Flagship Phone but
Single Core.

What's that in terms of user enjoyment and functional capabilities?
Any performance results on real use cases you want to share?

Re:And silence....

[WolfgangPG]

The operating system. 1 Year old Samsung Focus vs iPhone 4S: http://zollotech.com/2011/10/21/ios5-vs-wp7-mango-thorough-overview/

Re:And silence....

[LWATCDR]

Since I do not have one of course not. I can tell you that the GPU slower than the one on Samsung Galaxy SII and iPhone4s. of course that might not be an issue with the small screen and low resolution.
WP7 currently doesn't support multi-core cpus and few apps on the platform support multi-tasking so it maybe good enough for WP7 today.

Re:And silence....

[21mhz]

N9 does not have a multi-core CPU either, and it does not hurt much. So I'm questioning how big of a real disadvantage it is to not have a dual-core CPU. Probably shaves something off the bill of materials, too.

Re:And silence....

[LWATCDR]

What about a year from now? This is supposed to be a flagship device and it is going to go head to head with the best Android and the iPhone 4s which it just can not do.

Re:And silence....

[wvmarle]

I currently pay the equivalent of USD 13 per month for a total of four mobile phone numbers (three Hong Kong numbers, one China number, three SIM cards). That includes 500-800 minutes of air time in each plan. That USD 13 is the total amount.

I've three numbers on my phone now (2x HK, 1x China), diverting to one another. That's some USD 10 per month. My phone at USD 290 plus two years of fees costs about USD 530 all together. How much is your subsidised phone including plan costing you in two years? I bet it's costing you much more thanks to the mark-up on the plan: in the end the subsidy comes out of your own pocket.

Re:And silence....

[dudpixel]

A year from now the current android and iphone models will be a bit so-so too...

Nokia's battle isn't all in the hardware. They had to get everything right...and getting it right means not just matching whats out there, but exceeding it...and they failed to even match it.

Nokia will fail because they have not been able to prove they are still relevant. To most of us Nokia = the past. They've already lost IMO.

Re:And silence....

[LWATCDR]

Exactly. It had to be a grand slam home run. Their one hope is really Europe. If enough European customers buy just because they do not want Nokia to go belly up they might just hold one.
I could see Europeans deciding that they will live with Microsoft to keep Nokia alive for a while. If they do not it means the end of European cell phone makers and surrendering that industry to the US, China, Japan, Korea, and maybe Canada. But I doubt that most will care. Now if they had kept the N9 as a flagship then it could have been a big maybe. You would have had what would be seen as an all EU stack from the phone to software. Again that would have been a big maybe.

Re:And silence....

[21mhz]

What exactly do you need that it "can not do"?

Not quite "the same"

[Microlith]

The Lumina 800 is not merely "the N9 running WP7" but an entirely different device. Don't forget that Microsoft still dictates the internals of these devices, making them all identical internally with small external gimmicks and case the only differentiation vendors are allowed.

I'd still rather buy an N9.

Re:Not quite "the same"

[oakgrove]

I thought it had something to do with the fact that Maemo actually multi-tasks while wp7 multi-"services".

Re:Not quite "the same"

[Microlith]

A "proper" OS or simply a more functionally limited one? Don't forget that your OS has to share RAM with any applications you load.

Re:Not quite "the same"

[Luckyo]

Funny part: I mistyped the above comment, was supposed to say "N9 has proper multitasking in addition to less overhead".

48 hours of working with no sleep in the end project crunch does that to you.

DejaVu

[Anonymous Coward]

I just had a Zune DejaVu.

Modified N9?

[Mr_Silver]

By "modified N9" they mean the N9 but running WP7 bundled with Nokia's navigation application and a streaming music service.

By "modified N9" they also mean the different chipset (Qualcomm MSM vs TI OMAP), the different screen size (3.7 inch vs 3.9 inch), different bands (quad band vs pentaband), different WiFi channels (b/g/n vs a/b/g/n), different NFC capability (none vs something), different RAM (512MB vs 1GB) and different storage (16GB vs option of 16GB or 64GB).

But yeah, apart from all that, they are the same device!

Re:Modified N9?

[king neckbeard]

But they have the same shape. If you've been paying attention to lawsuits, you'd know that shape is pretty much the only real factor in phones.

Re:Modified N9?

[cbope]

Yeah, lucky for Nokia it's not a rounded-corner rectangle, which is apparently a design wholly owned by Apple.

Re:Modified N9?

[Mr_Silver]

But they have the same shape. If you've been paying attention to lawsuits, you'd know that shape is pretty much the only real factor in phones.

If you're talking about the Apple vs Samsung spat then it's more than just about shape. It's about hardware design, interface icons and package design.

Plenty of other manufacturers manage to not slavishly copy Apple. Hell, Samsung even managed to use an iPhone screenshot on their own website.

Re:Modified N9?

[dudpixel]

pretend apple is justified all you like but by those definitions, my shoe looks like an iphone and I have kids books that match the ipad.

Sorry but just putting ticks next to vague things that appear similar doesn't make them similar. I mean, they're suggesting the messaging icons are similar when the only similarity is that they are both square with rounded corners.
What if you could show that the icons used in the iphone and ipad were mostly universally recognizable images that people already associated with the things they represented. ie. a green phone icon (most previous phones already had a green button for dial and a red button for hang up), an icon with gears on it for settings.

The phones are similar but in no way identical.

So samsung went to great lengths to create devices that were identifyable as iphone alternatives, with an interface that would be easy for iphone users to adapt to, and suddenly they are "slavishly" copying? Where is the line between making something compatible and making an identical copy? The phone looked clearly different, it wasn't the same size, it worked differently, it did have different icons, and it definitely didn't fool people into thinking they had bought an iphone.

Same thing with the tablets - different size, different look completely, different usage. I'm not saying they weren't similar, just that it doesn't look like an exact copy.

The courts didn't necessarily think they copied either, they just honoured a patent that should never have been granted in the first place...but it was too late then.

Re:Can it be re-flashed?

[alexandre_ganso]

why would you want it? the hardware is actually inferior to that of the n9 in several aspects.

Re:alphabet

[Spy Handler]

Why Nokia is the pinnacle of human achievement, while the iPhone is a piece of shit

Name says everything

[Anonymous Coward]

Lumia means prostitute in spanish: http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=lumia [spanish language dictionary]

Re:Name says everything

[SadButTrue]

fitting really

Re:Name says everything

[Anonymous Coward]

well it also means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumia, which is most probably what Nokia meant

Re:Name says everything

[Saija]

i speak spanish and never heard this homonym before

Microsoft dictates minimum hardware

[Quila]

To make sure you don't get things like the earlier ultra-sluggish Android phones which makes for a very poor user experience.

But any modern mid-range phone hardware meets the minimum specs.

Re:Microsoft dictates minimum hardware

[SadButTrue]

Only if it is using a Qualcom SoC

Re:Microsoft dictates minimum hardware

[Microlith]

No, Microsoft dictates all of the hardware. They basically hand them a reference design and have them build around it. This is why every WP7 device uses a single core Qualcomm SoC.

"Lumia" is spanish for ...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Lumia" is spanish for "whore" or "prostitute", great sense of humour, Nokia :)

Re:"Lumia" is spanish for ...

[Luckyo]

Not the first or the last time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Pajero

Re:"Lumia" is spanish for ...

[paugq]

From the Dictionary of the Royal Academy:

http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=lumia

lumia.

(De or. inc.).

1. f. p. us. prostituta.

From the Maria Moliner dictionary, the other great reference for Spanish language:

http://www.diclib.com/lumia/show/en/moliner/L/2306/2160/36/37/49938

lumia f. Prostituta.

Re:"Lumia" is spanish for ...

[paugq]

The "intelligent, vivacious woman" meaning is not in any dictionary. Not even in the Spanish Language Thesaurus!

Lumia = Whore in Spanish :)

[Suomi-Poika]

http://www.wordmagicsoft.com/dictionary/es-en/lumia.php Hahahah! :) Now where is my Mitsubishi Pajero?

Re:Lumia = Whore in Spanish :)

[Alioth]

One Japanese car company even called a car Laputa.

same style but not an n9

[Sir_Sri]

The lumina 800 isn't even the same size and an n9 let alone the same phone

http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/26/nokia-lumia-800-vs-nokia-n9-the-tale-of-the-tape/

They are: Different sizes, use different processors (one clocked 40% faster than the other), different internal storage (factor of 4), different radio antennae (one is penta band, one quad), one has 1 gig of ram, the other 512.

I'm guessing, since they're the same thickness that there's some parts overlap, but it looks like on the important stuff they are completely different.

Re:Jobs and Ballmer In One

[UnknowingFool]

Feck. Yes you have to get people excited about your products but unlike Steve Jobs, if you don't have an RDF, it looks lame. Jobs actually believed what he was pedaling. When Jobs was excited, he genuinely was even if everyone else thought whatever he was excited about was mundane.

That's good new for Android fans.

[phonewebcam]

If these are so easy to flash then they'll be useful in a few months when the mountains of unsold ones start to appear on eBay.

Argh

[bhcompy]

Give me a hardware keyboard, please. Quantum is nice, but the screen is too small.

Nokia Whore 800

[paugq]

In Spanish, "Lumia" means "whore"

"Here we are, talking about the Nokia Whore 800 and the Nokia Whore 710, the two newest smartphones by Nokia..."

Nokia Global Marketing fail 101.

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[h4rr4r]

In what form of Spanish?
No online dictionary seems to agree with you.

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[phonewebcam]

In Finnish, Elop means "Trojan".

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[Nerdfest]

This was probably forced by 'truth in advertising' laws. Haven't you been paying attention to Nokia and Microsoft's relationship lately?

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[TeknoHog]

In Finnish, Elop means "Trojan".

No, it doesn't. Yes, I know, I'm a blast at parties.

However, we are used to calling the company "Mokia" meaning screw-ups, whenever they do something stupid. Little did we know where the initial M would actually come from.

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[spasm]

Oh wow, you're right:

http://www.wikilang.com/English/Spanish/streetwalker/lumia/1320206

That's hilarious..

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[CannonballHead]

http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/26/8491410-nokias-lumia-translates-as-prostitute-in-spanish

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[suy]

In which spanish-speaking region means that? Never ever heard it myself. Acording to DRAE is rarely used.

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[paugq]

> Wrong, punta is whore in spanish.

You meant "puta", not "punta". Like in English (bitch, whore, etc), there are many words in Spanish for that.

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[paugq]

Your Spanish is funny, lumia doesn't exist as a spanish word nor slang in Spain.

Have you even looked in a dictionary? No, of course you have not!

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[jones_supa]

I also like the one nickname of Elop which is "Floppipappa", flop grandpa.

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[UnknowingFool]

I'm sure in Spanish that there is more than word for "whore". Thanks for trolling.

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[flabordec]

Except for, you know, the Real Academia one: http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=lumia

But as a Spanish speaker I was just as surprised to find out as you are so I guess this is used in a different country than either of us live in.

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering Nokia's recent history with Microsoft, I'd say that product name is spot on.

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[Alioth]

http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=lumia

It's in the DRAE. Might not be used much, but it's a perfectly cromulent word.

Re:Nokia Whore 800

[Kashgarinn]

No no, not fail.. they're just marketing it _exactly_ as it should be... the offspring of prostitution and cash.

Re:Long Game, that could be a spike not a nail

[oakgrove]

Whatever drugs you are on...please share.

Meh

[PPH]

Call me when they announce their last Windows phone.

What's wrong with N9? Not just Windows.

[RavenManiac]

No micro SD card slot.

Taking the cues from Apple. No removable battery. Can't open easily. Bummer.

Re:What's wrong with N9? Not just Windows.

[Urkki]

"Can't open easily" also means "no parts flying around when dropped to the floor"...

But what would you do with the SD card slot, which isn't better done with USB or WLAN?

And there was much rejoicing

[inglorion_on_the_net]

Strange... here we were expecting the 'net to be abuzz with excitement, and users rushing to the store ... but all we can hear is ... crickets?

Re:Long Game, that could be a spike not a nail

[SuperKendall]

I'm not saying Android will die. Only that WP7 will come around as a viable third OS.

Microsoft has not started pushing WP7 yet to any great degree. Yes I also saw the ads you saw, but what you miss is that they spent a pittance on those and now they have the platform at some point of equality with the others, they are ready to push big time.

Laugh all you like, in a year from now the picture will be very different. Thinking anything else is simply ignoring the market as a whole, and the history of Microsoft...

in the corporate world it might stand out!

[pszilard]

Considering how strongly the corporate world is tied to the M$ ecosystem - OS, office/productivity suite, (web) application development platform, database etc. - I wouldn't be so sure that the Nokia WP 7.x-s have to stand out very much in terms of features & innovation in order to grab the attention and maybe even the $-s of the corporate world. I wouldn't be surprised if the unarguably good reputation of Nokia combined with a strong integration into the M$ ecosystem would suddenly make these phones serious competitors in the business segment.

I'm not familiar how well does the WP7.5 integrates into the M$ ecosystem, but if it's not as good as it gets, it will soon be.

Re:in the corporate world it might stand out!

[UnknowingFool]

Um no. The focus with WP7 is not business. It lacks many things that enterprises want like encryption which even iPhone and Android have. MS tries to compensate by offering Office apps but that is not much of a comfort. Yes you can open a Word document but no, you can't securely connect to Exchange to get it from an email.

Re:Long Game, that could be a spike not a nail

[s73v3r]

If every device maker has to may Microsoft to make smartphones anyway, why NOT move to supporting WP7?

Because even with the Microsoft tax, Android phones are selling quite well. WP7 phones are not.

Re:Displays in the old days..

[Anonymous Coward]

That is why they have bundled Alley Cat instead of Angry Birds with the phone.

"the design sensibilities of Windows Phone"

[dpbsmith]

"Complements and amplifies the design sensibilities of Windows Phone." Sort of like saying Itchy and Scratchy complement and amplify the design sensibilities of Tom and Jerry.

Well if shape is the case...

[SuperKendall]

But they have the same shape. If you've been paying attention to lawsuits, you'd know that shape is pretty much the only real factor in phones.

If you disagree tell that to the Apple Haters that seem to think the iPhone 4s is no upgrade at all simply because you can continue to use the same case.

Thank you for pointing this out to a bunch of very confused people.

Re:Long Game, that could be a spike not a nail

[SuperKendall]

Because even with the Microsoft tax, Android phones are selling quite well. WP7 phones are not.

That is something Microsoft can turn around with a large marketing push (which they have not done to date, not on the order they have planned for next year) and really good hardware (which Nokia has now started to provide them).

Microsoft has one other problem, that the sales staff in phone stores push Android devices. If you don't think Microsoft can bribe there way out of that, you have not been paying attention the last 30 years!

Most people know only one thing about smart phones - is it an iPhone or not. Most people have no idea about Android. So if Microsoft can just get in the middle of the recommendation channels then they can easily start latching into Android sales, possibly some iPhone sales too.

Isn't it a "Windows Phone 7 phone"?

[3.1415926535]

The name of the OS is "Windows Phone 7", so this is a "Windows Phone 7 phone", not a "Windows 7 phone". This is is the sort of dumb naming that leads to things like, "Plug your monitor into the DisplayPort port," or "point your web browser at http://slashdot.org/".

Re:Long Game, that could be a spike not a nail

[oakgrove]

Most people know only one thing about smart phones - is it an iPhone or not. Most people have no idea about Android.

You people keep trotting this out but I have yet to see any corroborating evidence for it whatsoever. I hear people that don't know shit about smartphones say they "want an Android". I was talking to my friend's roommate last night and she was asking me what laptop she should get. To cut to the chase, we got around to tablets. I mentioned the iPad and Android tablets. What did she say? "Oh yeah, Android That's on tablets too? I'm thinking about getting 'an Android' on my next phone." People know what Android is. But keep believing your own bullshit, guy.

Re:Displays in the old days..

[Urkki]

The tiles are largely animated, which makes its "live" look quite different from what it's in images.

Also, with modern touch phones, it's all about "feel" when actually used, so passing judgement based on pictures or even videos is like passing judgement on what it would be actually like to make love to somebody just by looking at them in a photo or a movie clip... Better to just go and try 'em all. With phones it's legal and free, just march into a electronics store.

Re:alphabet

[greenzrx]

Shame Maddox (the author of the above page) now has an iPhone: http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af11

Re:Long Game, that could be a spike not a nail

[UnknowingFool]

I don't consider $500 M a pittance. I would say they didn't get the result they wanted but it wasn't because they didn't spend.

A pox on the Nokia E70

[AliasMarlowe]

I had a Nokia E70. I hated it at the start, and my hatred for it grew even more over time.

It stank, even in the depths of a Finnish winter. The battery lasted about two or three days from a full charge, provided you did not use the phone; if it was used for half an hour of calls per day, then you got barely a day between charges. The user interface was an utter mess, where it was a challenge to find the setting to control any particular aspect of the phone. It had a web access which was utterly worthless. Even with a fairly fast connection, the miserable screen resolution meant nothing was readably visible without ridiculous amounts of scrolling.

The keyboard sucked rocks - the keys were raised above the phone surface, and the two function keys (call and answer) were raised even more. This meant that the keyboard unlock combination was almost guaranteed to be hit while the phone was in your pocket, leading to stupid failed calls to impossible numbers, and further depletion of its battery. The fold-out keyboard was nice, but finally gave me the reason to upgrade to a newer phone by having three of the keys progressively dying permanently. And don't get me started on the pathetic "joystick" which worked in an unpredictable way, if you were lucky.

I'm not the only one who hated the E70. In our company, that sentiment was more or less universal. The several hundred we got were returned for replacement at a fierce rate. I endured mine longer than most - more than a year. Previous and subsequent phones have lasted longer, due to them having a lower index of obnoxiousness.

My replacement company phone is a Nokia E72, which is incomparably better than the E70, but still fairly pathetic. It's nowhere near as good as last year's Android phones such as the HTC Desire Z or a Samsung Galaxy. Quite a few people opted to replace the E70 with their own Android devices, where the company just supplied the SIM card.

Re:A pox on the Nokia E70

[farnham]

But this one runs Windows!

Shouldn't It Be

[sexconker]

The first real Windows Phone 7 phone?
If there was a phone that could run Windows 7 (with decent performance and battery life), I'd buy 10.

Re:Long Game, that could be a spike not a nail

[SuperKendall]

And I don't consider analyst estimates to be worth anything. That whole article was speculation on how much money Microsoft might spend... they were right on the amount probably, just not when Microsoft is going to spend it (early next year).

Re:alphabet

[V!NCENT]

On a stick?

Commodore Amiga marketing?

Don't buy Nokia.

[paladinsama]

Don't buy Nokia. Worst Customer support. They don't care to provide any service.

Re:Don't buy Nokia.

[perryizgr8]

after being in possession of various nokia phones for 7-8 years, i don't know how good or bad their customer service is!! becuase i've never had a single hardware problem with any of nokia's devices, not even a broken button or anything.

"first ever instantiation"????

[dbIII]

Buzzwords gone beserk! Either shoot him now before he bites somebody or tie him down and give him rabies shots.
Nokia is doomed.

A stupid and obvious lie is not good marketing eit

[dbIII]

A stupid and obvious lie is not good marketing either. People feel insulted and turn away.

Re:Long Game, that could be a spike not a nail

[mjwx]

You people keep trotting this out but I have yet to see any corroborating evidence for it whatsoever. I hear people that don't know shit about smartphones say they "want an Android".

This.

Telco's and manufacturers in Australia are keen to advertise Android. It's become a household name now. Everyone poster for a HTC or Samsung phone that runs Android has an Android logo displaued on it. The specifications advertised specifies Android OS if not the specific version of Android.

Two years ago, no-one knew about Android. Today, you have to have your head buried in deep in the sand not to know about Android.

Re:Long Game, that could be a spike not a nail

[UnknowingFool]

I don't know about next year. I've seen enough Windows Phone 7 ads during prime time tv coverage to say they must have spent a good chunk already.

Re:alphabet

[perryizgr8]

april fool!

Re:Why it will fail

[simpz]

"Mac users love macs. Android users love android. Linux users love Linux. Windows users? They only love the promise of the cold comfort of the grave and the release from their hellish lives it will bring."

Love this.....

Re:Long Game, that could be a spike not a nail

[s73v3r]

I'm sorry, but I don't think anything you've said has anything to do with reality. I honestly don't think that Microsoft is going to be able to come close to the explosive growth that Android has had, and they can't come anywhere near the steady push that the iPhone has had. They're going to be another also-ran, with RIM and WebOS.