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LG To Pay Licensing Fees To Microsoft For Using Android
PerlJedi writes "InformationWeek reports that LG is the latest in a string of companies who have been bullied into paying 'license fees' to Microsoft for the use of Android on their products. 'Microsoft said the deal with LG means that 70% of Android-based smartphones sold in the U.S. are now covered by its licensing program. ... Microsoft does not disclose how much revenue it's obtaining from Android, Chrome, and Linux licenses, but some analysts believe it may be substantial, to the point where the company is making significant profits from the mobile revolution even though its own offering, Windows Phone, commands a market share of less than 2%, according to Gartner.'"
In what way is this different to any other form of extorting money with menaces?
"Nice mobile phone business you've got here. Would be a shame if anything were to... happen to it."
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
Professional bullying...
Shame if it would burn down. Really. All these apps. Be a real shame. Just sayin'. ya looked at that contract yet?
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
leveraging their patents? Surely Google has snapped up enough patents now to start extorting some license fees of their own? No one seems to think Google is actually not doing evil anymore, so why keep up the image, I say
Apple won't even license it's "rectangular touchscreen" patents for Android phones.
At this point I hate Apple alot more than I hate Microsoft.
So, Microsoft is getting paid for every Android device sold in the US ...
And people think the patent system isn't broken.
I wish we had a clear list of the patents Microsoft is asserting are being infringed, because from TFA:
That's just sad, really ... you can't build anything without paying Microsoft for the privilege of not getting sued. I'm betting a good deal of those patents are likely stupid things that had been in other operating systems before MS copied and patented them.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
"OMG MICROSOFT IS MAKING MONEY"
Actually, some of the more reasonable /. readers would probably find this a lot less objectionable if it was a case of Microsoft making money by selling Microsoft products.
Gravitation is a theory, not a fact.
This puts me beyond hate of MS. It's another form of MS tax.
If it is indeed for the file system, then it's understandable.
Yeah, but both of those guys are at work right now, so it wouldn't really matter.
Ok, let me see if I got this right: they're extorting patent royalties from third party mobile vendors. They're almost certainly making them sign a contract with a time commitment on it. Then later this year they expect these same mobile vendors to ditch Android development and use Windows Mobile instead? All the while they need to continue paying the extortion.
Yeah... that's gonna work well. It virtually guarantees Windows 8 on a mobile device is DOA.
----- obSig
One of the patents that Microsoft uses in these type cases is “loading status in a hypermedia browser having a limited available display area” Seems to me this is way too vague to be a valid patent.
Here is a link to the actual patent http://www.patents4software.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/6339780.pdf
" Microsoft owns the patents based on years of R&D (Microsoft Research is the largest R&D center on the industry) and they legally ask for companies to pay to use their patented technology."
How do you know they own the patent? Because LG paid? That is not an argument.
"Microsoft owns the patents based on years of R&D (Microsoft Research is the largest R&D center on the industry) and they legally ask for companies to pay to use their patented technology."
If they disclose it would be easier to cope with. Maybe one can remove any offending code, but one is not given the chance to do that...
This is why their tactics are bad.
Maybe someone came up with the idea, without consulting their R&D's ideas. Regardless of how many billions Microsoft poured into it.
That is only one reason why Microsoft sucks and why it approaches extortion.
If it's FAT, why not use a free filesystem (ext2 would do) and provide a driver for Windows users? This could slowly convert the market away from that horrible filesystem for which MS is still collecting patent fees (which in itself is ridiculous, I mean look at that "filesystem"!!!). Even if I want I can currently not use any other filesystem for the SD card on my HTC Android device. That's where the madness is.
Isn't this just that hoary old SCO troll? Microsoft's just dropped the pretense of using a sockpuppet to do it's shakedowns. And should be treated the same.
DON'T FORGET TO PAY YOUR $699 LICENSING FEE YOU COCKSMOKING TEABAGGERS!!!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
They don't give a damn if companies use WM...they don't need them to. WM exists so that they have a platform on which to use their patented technologies so as to avoid appearing to be a blatant troll. The real money is in doing nothing and getting paid for it via ridiculous patent law.
Sure, if you take it as a given that Google is lying and Microsoft is telling the truth, your post becomes reasonable.
1. Google does not believe that Android infringes any Microsoft patents.
2. Neither this nor any of the other licensing agreements reveal what MS patents are used in Android.
3. When Barnes and Noble was approached by Microsoft to make such a deal, MS refused to even tell B&N what patents were involved, and how they were being infringed. It was "trust us, your product infringes big-time, so pay up".
4. B&N told MS they wouldn't agree to anything without specifics. MS showed them the allegedly infringed patents, B&N laughed their asses off and revealed to the world, and told mighty MS "go ahead and sue us and see where it gets you". MS is now suing B&N, and B&N has filed antitrust complaints against MS.
5. Even if you take the most pro-MS view possible, the MS patents revealed by B&N cover a tiny subset of Android's capabilities. Yet MS demanded higher licensing fees for use of these patents than what they charge to use all of Windows Phone 7.
Put it this way - do you honestly believe that Microsoft Research laid the groundwork for Android? Do you believe Android developers paid any attention to any "patented inventions" from Microsoft?
I can't tell whether you are a) a shill b) hopelessly naive or c) sarcastic. I certainly hope it's c).
7. They weren't smart enough to pull and Apple and base their products on BSD instead of Linux.
BSD-style licensing means they could have kept the entire source closed, making it MUCH harder for any outsider to demand royalties (not to mention the whole "you don't see people suing over BSD any more" angle).
How many companies would be suing Microsoft if all their code was open to inspection?
yep, i think the reason is more like"You currently have a microsoft licence - want to keep it???"
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Once they hit the end of it, their neck ought to snap like a dry twig.
Extortion, monopolistic activities.. It will be nice when MS gets handed a 30 billion dollar fine (per manufacturer they bullied) and are forced out of the mobile market forever.
It is not only LG but also HTC and Samsung. A few months ago I read in ars technica that Microsoft might be collecting royalties from around 50% of all android devices: http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2011/10/microsoft-collects-license-fees-on-50-of-android-devices-tells-google-to-wake-up.ars
+1
this doesn't really seem worth noting, since many companies have many licensing agreements. it's just a way for business people to do some risk mitigation, since the patent system is so broken as to make actually producing a product a game of russian roulette. this kind of licensing is just a way to trade a little money for the guarantee that there are fewer bullets in the revolver. sure, it's extortion, but so is most risk mitigation.
unfortunately, the idiotic MBA-driven approach that gives rise to this is amoral, so such companies face the moral hazard of having engaged in risk mitigation. not only is it not their money, but can be spun to the public as good stewardship. when in reality, it's just cowardice and unwillingness to stand up and make IP reform happen NOW.
Your comment confuses me.
I'm posting from work, the only place boring enough for me to find slashdot entertaining.
Are you saying that there are members of slashdot who not only do not look at slashdot while working, but they instead spend their precious off time to look at slashdot?
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
For this is extortion now, basically. They are increasing the cost that reflects on the customer by patent threats that may or may not be valid.
Read radical news here
someone who is not aware that microsoft is NOT disclosing any of the 'infringements' or patents and extorting money on THREATS alone, should not talk in this discussion.
microsoft's act is no different from someone coming to your restaurant and demanding money by saying that you damaged his business by using his ideas.
Read radical news here
I think this is a big reason why the Nokia deal is so important to Microsoft. In pretty much every aspect, it appears that Microsoft is ultimately trying to push Nokia+WinPhone as a product in and of itself, with little thought given to the OEMs. In my humble opinion, this is the right strategy. Microsoft can't (and doesn't want) to compete with Android directly, since they'd be going up against an entrenched and inexpensive foe with whom the carriers and OEMs already have a strong relationship. And after Windows's dominance in the 90s, they know exactly how futile competing against that can be.
But by betting heavily on Nokia, Microsoft has guaranteed themselves a partner who will build hardware specifically tailored to their OS (and vice versa) and who will never have to choose between putting marketing dollars behind Windows Phone or Android.
Warning: Contents May Be Flammable. Keep Out Of Reach Of Children.
I can't understand why all the companies that Microsoft is blackmailing, especially Google, don't form a cohesive group to fight back. At least to finally oblige Microsoft to reveal the actual details of whatever their supposed Linux/Android copyrighht claim is.
That is basically what it came down to. Microsoft is basically making everyone pay to them regardless of what they do - even if you use linux, you have to pay them. and they are doing these on THREATS of litigation and do not even feel the need to actually show their patents. they are not suing anyone either - they are threatening to.
this is extortion. period. there is no other explanation or definition for it.
so, basically we are going to end up having paid to microsoft, EVEN if i do NOT use microsoft products, because microsoft was successful in threatening the producers to pay them out of fear.
i dont approve that. i choose a product, when i choose a product. if i was going to choose a microsoft product, i would do so. when i have not chosen a microsoft product, that means i have NOT chosen to PAY them.
if they take my money through ANY means out of my own choices, then it means they are robbing me. period.
i dont see any other option but to pirate, to get my money back, which was taken away from me through these illegal means.
the problem is, most of microsoft's products are crap, and i evade them as much as possible. so, what am i going to do now, since i am being cashed by microsoft even when i do NOT use their product ? pirate the other software which was supposed to be NOT microsoft ? this is a pinch.
Read radical news here
Microsoft alleges that their patents are violated. they do NOT show, or say, or even let you peek at what patents were violated. they may basically be bluffing, and there is no way to know that. you cant sue them for their own patents either. they dont sue anyone, ending up having to show their patents either. they are just THREATENING to sue, and extorting money over their alleged patents. we do not even know whether they have patents or not.
Read radical news here
The worst part of this was revealed by Barnes & Nobel when they said that part of the demanded secret licensing agreement was that it gave Microsoft design approval over future devices. That should never have been agreed to, or allowed. Giving Microsoft that power allows them to control the entire future progress of the Android hardware ecosystem, meaning that they could cripple future Android hardware because their Windows phone is not competitive. It would be like AMD not being allowed to release new processors without Intel approval. If that had ever happened do you think that AMD64 would have ever seen the light of day?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
If a company makes significant profits from licensing patents to other companies, and suing them if they don't license. And the company's own product barely makes a dent in the market... Can the company be seen as a Patent Troll?
The patents.
The missing matter seems to be from between your ears.
The patents are public knowledge. That's how they ARE.
We don't want to know what the deal WAS, we want to know what the patents ARE. So we can, for example, avoid using them.
Dipshit.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Given how ludicrous this situation appears to be - especially since the low quality of the patents in question have come to light in the B&N case - I'd suggest here's more to it than MS simply blackmailing competitors.
It seem plausible to me that MS is making some kind of deal with LG (and Samsung, and the rest of them) related to developing WP7 devices(possibly), a minor part of which also includes them getting licenses for MS's patents. Its seems more likely that MS is going to LG saying "Here, have a truckload of cash, please make Windows phones - oh and we'll throw in some patent licenses". MS is then spinning that - purely for FUD reasons - to make it look like LG is licensing the patents because they think they need to.
Yes, LG now has licenses for the patents, but that may not be while the deal took place. From MS's point of view, they get a hardware partner, and spread more FUD about android.
Speculation of course - but i think there's got to be more to it than straight-up bullying. I mean, Samsung capitulated pretty quickly - and by all accounts, they *love* lawsuits.
Either way, MS's behaviour is just pathetic and embarrassing.
LG bullied by Microsoft?
LG Electronics plays an active role in world markets with its assertive global business policy. As a result, LG Electronics controls 114 local subsidiaries worldwide, with roughly 82,000 executives and employees.
http://www.lg.com/us/about-lg/corporate-information/overview/global-operations.jsp
I think not.
all that what you posted shows, is that microsoft is trying to extort people without showing them any patents. this was the point.
Read radical news here
Apparently, of all the Android gadget manufacturers, only B&N had the balls to tell MS to fuck off.
Strange that *all the others* have folded like a cheap hooker. Really strange.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
It would be nice to have one of these suits actually go to a court where the judge actually understands the 'value' of these patents. Even if they're valid, they're worth about 1 millionth of the cost of the phone. Have some judge set damages of a penny and let's be done with this crap.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
What I find hilarious, is how many you understand ZERO about business and patents.
Each of these corporations have done business analysis, using high paid patent lawyers, and determined it's worth the money. And a bunch of weekend python hackers think they know more about it and declare the actions wrong.
Please, I am anxious for you guys to go into a competing business with me. Does the phrase 'shooting fish in a barrel' ring any bells?
slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
The article mentions that 70% of Android phones sold in the US pay for MS "license". That leaves 30% that don't? It would be nice to know which brands of phones are those, so people could vote with their dollars. So, if HTC, Samsung, Acer and now LG pay, who is left?
Google may be waiting until Microsoft bullies every manufacturer out there to pay the ransom, then Google destroys them in court, leaving Microsoft open to endless, massive lawsuits, not only from the companies they threatened, but every institutional investor holding rapidly devaluing Microsoft stock.
Does anyone know what phone manufacturers haven't caved to Microsoft? I went with LG about a year ago because from what I could tell they didn't pay money to Microsoft. Now I feel like tossing my G2X in the garbage, and I want to vote with my wallet for companies with balls. If Barnes and Noble made a phone I'd buy one from them.
... there will be a monopoly. Oh, sure, it'll be comprised of multiple corporations, but there will be a circle of companies that share the set of technologies required to build any software, and if you aren't part of the circle now, you'll never be. That cartel will treat each individual as a division of a corporation while keeping up the appearance of multiple corporations; there will be what will amount to interdepartmental disagreements, but for all intents and purposes, it'll be one big family that no one else will be able to join.
Check your premises.
Our product is shit so will will use our lawyers to extract insurance from our competition or you will get a visit from Fat Tony.
luckum l=f
Ok, so "70% of Android-based smartphones sold in the U.S. are now covered by its licensing program." With the same "just sign here, and let us handle the PR" tactic... For patents that are so awesomely awesome, fundamentaly fundamental and ground-breakingly ground-breaking that *as a surprising suprise* they are not publicly listed. And when they do get listed, the sheer stupidity of those prolly makes Darwin roll over in his grave...
(Any of you finding this circus legitimate, please tell me you're: 1. trolling "4 teh lulz", or 2. an MS employee... Please...)
Repeat after me: SEVEN-EFFIN'-TY PERCENT.
How is that kind of F[censored] S[censored] even allowed to go on?
Though obviously, complaining about it in online fora each time apparently doesn't help. What's the next best alternative, NOW?
Android allegedly infringes on Microsoft patents and Apple patents (among others). Microsoft decides to license its technology. What does Apple do? Sue the crap out of everyone. Sounds to me like MS is taking the smarter approach here -- partnering with manufacturers, creating a steady income stream, and not looking looking like an iDouche.
thats bullshit and you know it. microsoft could sell all of its assets to feed starving children in africa and the average moron armchair quarterback slashdot user would find something to bitch about.
I mean seriously, you people dont recognize that you're being basically trolled by the people who run this site? they want hits, and they know nothing gets slashdot hits like a microsoft story.
the real lol is that you lampoon the shit out of anyone that won't fall in line with the slashdot agenda, label them as shills, and you're all hive-minding the same kind of shit, just from an opposing viewpoint.
only register (l)users who are fighting an ideological batter against a fucking phantom evil. cracking the psychology of this site should be a phd thesis.
Bug Google doesn't currently have an Android product on the market.
Until the Motorola purchase goes throught.
Remember, Android is an open source project... it's Linux. Google doesn't "own" it and is also not liable for it. They contribute to it and own some apps and the "official" Android market. It's an interesting play.
Didn't Microsoft buy the company that created it?
Not even that.. they licensed the technology. PrimseSense is currently showing products at CES. ASUS showed a Primsense offering as well.. the WAVI Xtion at last year's CES.
I think the Microsoft Marketing department had more to do with Kinect hardware development ( putting the logo on the reference design ) than Microsoft Research. I wonder if MS even did the XBox driver for Kinect.
Here's the Microsoft press release
Oh well, now that both LG and Samsung have signed this deal with the devil * I won't be buying one of their products. I guess I'll go pickup a knockoff from Dealextreme. No problem.
* Anyone who continues to give Microsoft any money, knowing what they have done, is either pathalogically thoughtless or has shares in the company.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Android predates Apple's plans for either the iPhone or iPad. Linksys/Cisco had trademarked the name iPhone before Apple brazenly used it anyway. Microsoft had patented the wheel interface, and Apple had to pay them. The OSX operating system is BSD Unix in a Darwin wrapper. Rectangular tablet PC's existed long before Apple's. The original Macintosh ideas came from Xerox PARC along with their programmers.
I could go on, but the point is...no innovation has occurred at Apple since Woz left.
If they refuse to sign the NDA, then Microsoft could sue for one patent at a time, couldn't they? Win one, then win another, and another. If they refused to sign, I wouldn't take away their rights to use windows, that would be stupid because they would just lose even more money. No, I would nickle and dime them to bankruptcy. The NDA forces full disclosure + secrecy. Microsoft must have at least ONE patent worth a damn, otherwise why would LG fall for it? Does LG even make computers? They sure don't make significant profit off Win Phone 7. LG really has nothing to lose if Microsoft wanted to cancel all other deals, so there has to something behind all of this. Just wait, someone will violate the NDA again and we will know more. Maybe LG will be the ones to do it... what else do they have to lose but a few million dollars in a courtroom. That's chump change. By the time the case is over, Google will know what to engineer around and produce a non-infringing version of Android, assuming it's possible. Unless, of course, Microsoft uses my original idea of suing one patent at a time.
This 'arrangement' is TEMPORARY. When it comes crashing down - quite soon I expect, certainly before April - the carnage is going to be an extra large popcorn event.
Removing offending code doesn't un-exploit a patented technology. That's like profiting from copying while using that time to replace the copied parts, except that "like" means "is" in this case. You're only allowed to do that when it's SCO code (it's a special rule in the tech world)
Bullshit. Your concept of "fairness" has been raped into you by bullies like Microsoft. It's bad enough that we still tolerate the obscenity of a greedy few lording it over the majority (once justified in terms of divine will, then aristocratic blood, now nonsense like "earning it fair and square", as though the fat pampered Microsoft programmer wasn't born into any more privilege than the impoverished child whose access to information is restricted due to the local school's having to pay the fat programmer his tax), but to apply this disgusting capitalist survival-of-the-greediest ethic to knowledge is about as low as the human race can sink. If it weren't for Microsoft's deliberate and aggressive efforts to cripple the progress of knowledge for its own profit, schools throughout the world would already be using freely available and collaboratively produced software on all their computers, saving them billions that they could spend on improving our children's education. Don't slurp up Microsoft's excrement about patent violations hampering progress: do you seriously believe that the progress of knowledge is enhanced by using violence to prevent people from sharing it? Wake up: Microsoft's R&D department would happily let a million third world children die if it would slightly improve the quality of the coffee in their staff cafeteria. They'd claim otherwise, but their actions demonstrate that their own self-interest is immeasurably more valuable to them than the social effects of what they do. To get all horny about the crumbs they drop society from their table is just pathetic.
If any of those patent licenses cover Linux kernel or any other GPL code, the vendor LOSES THE RIGHT TO DEPLOY THE SOFTWARE UNDER THE TERMS OF THE GPL.
The GPL mandates that you fight patents that affect the GPL code you're using. If you don't have the patent, the GPL license is automatically REVOKED. This was done to ensure community support in fighting patent trolls, and to prevent anyone from being able to just "pay off" a troll.
I don't know what's in the patent portfolios Microsoft is licensing. But that's why such deals should not be allowed to be done behind closed doors -- the patents involved affect important licensing terms, and by keeping the information hidden, Microsoft invites the speculation that they're trying to do an end-run to monetize GPL'd code.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
So they say "showing a busy indicator in the corner of the screen of a mobile browser on a limited sized screen" is patentable and the basic claim to uniqueness is that this cursor isn't shown permanently, only when it's busy.
Which is what the Mozilla busy bar did (bottom right corner busy bar) BEFORE MS patented this.
So what MS is trying there, is to patent Mozilla if it was running on a 'small screen' device, as if the small screen device adds some inventive element to showing the busy cursor.
This is why I think filing patents you know are not inventions should be fraud. MS knew is was patenting Mozilla browser here, they know this is only possible because the USPTO has become a rubber stamping machine for patents. If companies can gain so much from fraudulent patents like this, then it should be fraud to make false claims.
Some one should break the NDA & post the patents for the rest of the world to see, because NDA itself will not hold water in court due to being unfair trade practice
Microsoft has signed yet another deal with an Android player, this time its LG. There seems to be more to it than it appears on the surface. It this deal just about Android? I think not. I wonder why no one is signing Windows Phone deals with Microsoft? Why is Microsoft talking only about the Android deals and not about Windows Phone deals? Why is no hardware player signing or renewing any deals with Microsoft to put its Windows Phone on their devices? Only Windows deal that we heard of was Microsoft-Nokia deal where the Finnish maker committed to using only Microsoft OS. Why we never heard of Samsung, LG, HTC signing any Windows phone deals with Microsoft? I have a theory. The possibility is these 'Android' deals are in fact Windows Phone deals. http://slashdot.org/submission/1908860/is-android-part-of-microsoft-windows-phone-licens
"The real question here is, how is Android profiting from Microsoft's R&D? Maybe it would help if Microsoft ever actually said which patents were being violated, and how. Have they?
The answer to that being NOT AT ALL, which is why Microsoft won't sue Google directly. Instead engages in a campaigh of EXTORTION against its customer base.
The US patent system is totally broken.
link
link
This reminds me of the SCO stunt where they claimed they owned parts of linux but would not say which parts. As I remember it slash dot readers did a good job trying to crack that issue, aiming to prove that SCO did not own linux.
How can Microsoft charge a company for using a Linux & Java - based OS made by a yet another company? It beats me.
Given that the DOJ and EU actions against Microsoft are now a complete and utter failure, have governments just rolled over and surrendered to Microsoft? At one point the Judge ordered them broken apart into the OS and applications, perhaps it's time to revisit that plan.