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Do Companies Punish Workers Who Take Vacations?
Hugh Pickens writes "Chad Brooks reports that a steady stream of research over the past year reveals that Americans aren't taking vacations and it's because they are afraid to take time off from work for fear of appearing less than dedicated to their employer with one survey showing that 70 percent of employees said they weren't using all their earned vacation days in 2011. 'You have this kind of fear of not wanting to be seen as a slacker,' says John de Graaf, executive director of Take Back Your Time, an organization focused on challenging the epidemic of overwork, over-scheduling and time famine facing society. De Graaf adds that while some companies are good about encouraging employees to use earned time off, there also are some that aren't worried about the potential repercussions that may come from that nose-to-the-grindstone approach. 'They think, "If I burn someone out, I can always find someone else,"' says de Graaf. 'They think [employees] are expendable.' Even when they do take vacation, research shows many employees aren't leaving their work behind. In one study, 66 percent of surveyed employees said they would check and respond to email during their time off, and 29 percent expect to attend meetings virtually while on vacation. De Graaf is not optimistic anything will ever get done to free employees of their fear of taking time off. 'This is the only wealthy country in the world that does not guarantee any paid vacation time,' says de Graaf. 'Every other country understands that this makes people healthier and creates a better workforce.'"
It's very important to me to be able to fuck off from my job. I skip out early, I take days off, I ignore phone calls after hours. As long as I get the job done during the day, I don't care what people think. I am a slacker, and I enjoy it. Life's too short to fret over the grindstone. Don't take life too seriously!
having worked for a company that did punish employees who took vacations I can say the answer to this is yes..
Everyone was excited about how the economy is screaming and moving forward with 3x more postings than last year! ... the jobs were all insurance selling door to door, hotel maids, cocktail waitressing, etc. This was a professional job fair too and only one of the 40 employers had anything over 30k a year!
In that environment would you want to risk your job? Hell no! If I were making 50k a year I would feel fucking rich and be greatful to work 12 hours a day. In that environment where these poor saps would do anything to take your job to feed your kids you have to suck it up. This isn't 1999 anymore.
I remember 12 years ago when I was young, that many people called in sick once a month or took a vacation Friday etc. These folks got laid off in 2001 as soon as the shit hit hte fan. Until the economy improves and there are more jobs than applicants this will continue. In addition with Europe at risk of going into a full great depression if the banking system collapses I would say there is considerable risk right now. Even if the US economy is adding more low wage jobs now than before this will sharply reverse if citigroup, chase, and BOA all go out of business once every bank in Europe also collapses too. It is very serious until governments learn to live within their means.
http://saveie6.com/
Oh FFS - can we please stop diluting the important words in our language? It kind of skews people's perspective of actual famine. #getoffmylawn
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
'Every other country understands that this makes people healthier and creates a better workforce.'"
No, every other country isn't ruled by supersized multinational corporations who can co-opt every government process, override any legal review, and sidestep any political controversy, if they pay enough. America's government can be properly classified now as "Dollar." That, right there, is what is causing the problem -- it's not that the government doesn't understand, it's that the government doesn't care.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Different cultures have different attitudes about work/life balance. I get the shakes if I'm away from work for more than a couple days.
It's not that I feel like I can't take vacation, but with only 2 weeks/year, I feel like I need to save it for something special. If I had 4 weeks (or more), I'd be more likely to take more little trips here and there or even use vacation as a personal day to stay home, but as it is, I try to save up my vacation for a big trip.
I'd rather that my company moved to a paid time off pool for both sick and vacation days since I so rarely use sick days.
Remember the office sitcom '9 to 5' ? yes, 9.00 in the morning to 05.00 in the evening. it depicted an office and the funny situations that happened in between the workers in the office. a privately owned office. it was a popular sitcom, due to depicting a lot of people's daily lives.
the catch here, is in the name of the sitcom - '9 to 5'. you see, back 20-25 years ago, the situation in america was so that you worked in private corporations in between those hours in general. actually not only in america - it was so in many other parts of the world (maybe except japan).
but look at it now - 7 in the evening is the normal time when work stops in almost entire private sector. in the last 25 years, somewhere in between, the hour we got out of work has gone from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. and this did not happen only in america - almost any part of the world. wages ? they did not increase in proportion to inflation.
so we are working more, (25% more on average at least), but getting paid less. and everything is ship shape, as far as the current economic system and corporations are concerned.
would you expect paid vacations to be something that corporations would smile at, in such an environment ?
Read radical news here
Almost all american workers are "At will" not contract. At will means they can be and often are fired at anytime for no reason with no prior warning.
Tell me about it.
The harddrive holocaust last year threw us into a great data-storage depression; Can't even get a 1TB drive for under $100.
It's unhealthy to work non-stop and it can't be good for your work. I always come back feeling recharged. Occasionally a colleague has had significant holiday remaining at the year-end and our bosses certainly weren't applauding, they told them to take it ASAP.
Employees not taking holidays is also a known fraud risk. Employees committing fraud commonly do not take holidays because they need to keep covering their tracks. The story can be similar for incompetent employees. If they're not at work for a week complaints are more likely to make it to someone who might start asking questions.
In high-risk jobs it's not unusual for week-long holiday breaks to be absolutely mandatory (one of the findings from the Bearings Bank collapse).
I think I found your problem...
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I dunno if you knew this, but the United States is not a household.
Hi. I'm an employer. I have 85 employees. I *want* them to take their time off. We converted from Sick/Vacation to "Paid time off" to give healthy employees even more vacation days than they would otherwise get. At the end of the year, some of that PTO expires, and for several of my employees -- some of it always does. So it might not be a big-bad-corporation-problem, but more of a employee-work-ethic-problem. Should I *force* my over-dedicated employees to go home at 5 or to take vacations without bringing the iPhone?
I worked for the Australian branch of a multinational, when we got put under the management of the US branches.
Now this was done because we were putting our releases on time, on budget, while the US branches were constantly missing deadlines and getting hit by penalty payments. So we were basically moved to make their departments figures look better.
The US managers kept coming out, looking at what we were doing and how hard we were working, and immediately deciding that if they could take our 4 weeks annual leave off us, we'd be even more productive! They could not get their heads around the idea that we were able to put in that much effort because we knew that when crunch finished we'd be able to take a couple of weeks to rest and recover before the next sprint. If you don't get time off, then you've got to pace yourself.
We never got it through their heads, and eventually we were written off as culturally lazy, and sold off. Even though we were the ones hitting deadlines, and they were always running late.
If you don't enjoy your job, then that sucks.
How many people do you think really enjoy their jobs ?! The only reason many people work is simply for the paycheck.
At my company, we did away with vacations. You get no vacation time. At. All.
But that was just for starters, we also did away with sick time. None.
Personal days? Don't make me laugh.
I am proud to say that was my initiative.
One might think this could have some impact on moral. But when asked during on camera interviews, how much would people have to pay you to leave? Some said at least double, and most said they couldn't even think of a number.
If you want to know how that's possible, then Google ROWE. Results Only Work Environment. And you'll understand why.
I give talks about our transition to ROWE, and it's been nothing but phenomenal.
David
David Whatley
I used my vacation time this year. First time in 13 years I've actually taken a full vacation. Two weeks later I was let go. Luckily I have a new job already but this is a very real problem.
As for the reason I was let go? It was trumped up BS. I was a model employee, multiple promotions, commendations etc. Never had I been under any disciplinary action.
I've been with the company and (its successors in interest -- yes it's been bought three times) long enough that I supposedly get 5 weeks of vacation per year. However, there is a clear expectation that I will check email while on vacation (or holiday). I also have been called in for insignificant issues while I was on vacation -- told I had to come back in. If I go out of town, I'm expected to take a laptop with me so I can remote in to handle issues that come up. Vacation... I wish.
In the U.S. you are also punished for taking time off for being sick. I actually had a co-worker told that she had to keep her accrued vacation time above 20 hours (vacation time and sick time are the same pool) because the company felt that she was taking too much time off even though she was only taking what she had accrued. So if she was hovering around 20 hours accrued and got the Flu, tough...better come to work and infect your co-workers. It's stupid. Corporate policy is based around what makes for the best quarterly report. Never mind that those decisions will cost the company in the long run as long as the numbers have been maximized for the quarterly report. The hubris of the corporate overlords is bolstered by the support of the state which says that we are "at will" employees that can be let go at any time without prior notice or reason. This is the result of runaway capitalism. We are returning to the robber barons of the turn of the last century.
There are those who are afraid, and there are those who think their job is just short term. I've found that by giving a 90 day notice of an upcoming vacation tends to make the more nervous bosses less so. I follow up every 30 days stating in my email, that on such and such a date I'll be taking some time off.
I even reminded the Management that they'd need to assign someone to cover for me early enough for me to bring my stand-in up to speed. No action.
As we got down to the last few weeks before I was scheduled to leave, my immediate manager started dropping hints that this wasn't a good time to be out of the office. I replied that that was why it was important to have someone cover for me.
About a week before I'm scheduled for time off, I get called into a meeting with every suit above me right up to the senior VP. They go on at great length about how important the work I'm doing is, how critical etc. to the Company, and what a poor time it will be for me to be gone. I make understanding noises. Finally they ask me if I'm going to reschedule my time off. I tell them that we have travel booked, hotels, all that.
They then dial up the "we really, really, really need you here" stuff. So I fold: "Well, if that's how it is we'll just have to tell the wedding guests they're on their own and call off the wedding." Silence.
I'm reliably informed that the partying at the reception went on nearly till dawn. We weren't there.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
They exchanged it for a program where you "ask your manager for time off". Fine if you are a confident employee with a good manager and a good relationship with them. Not fine if you are timid or have a bad manager and bad relationship with them. Fine for the company because they win either way.
The capable boss is the key factor. Because we don't see middle management as a real job, most middle managers are not skilled in the trade. One of the big problems I have seen is middle managers that cannot tell the difference between productivity and attendance. Thus, if you take time off, and the place doesn't fall apart, they think that your job is unnecessary.
I've seen cases where the employer thinks it is work ethic, employees are truly just terrified and afraid. No one wants to be the first one to look like they are slacking off.
Upper management has to take the steps themselves, telling people "I only will respond to a fire or equivalent call after hours", leaving on time and not coming in extra early. That sends a message more thoroughly than anything you could say.
Even if you decide to quietly check your email after hours, never send one after hours.
Make your actions speak for you, it's the only way to truly convince others.
"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend unto the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
Hear Hear!!
I mean, it isn't black or white...I enjoy my job enough...I'm not unhappy. I wouldn't do it if there wasn't some pleasure in it, HOWEVER, if I won the powerball tomorrow, I doubt I'd even go back in to collect the few personal things I keep at my desk.
I, like I think most would do...would never work again a day in my life!!
I'd be way too busy travelling, chasing women and generally having fun. Would part of my fun be playing with computers? Sure....but only for fun or interesting projects.
I've heard that some people are almost 'defined' by their jobs. I personally can't understand that. I am SO much more than that...
I ONLY work, in order to support the lifestyle I enjoy (which of course takes money) that I enjoy outside the office. And...I do need time out of the office to enjoy MY life and doing things I enjoy....and play with the toys I buy. If I didn't have to worry about a paycheck, you can bet your sweet ass I'd never work again at a 'job'. Why would anyone?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
A few people have stated that they work for free because if they don't they might lose their job. It is this sort of short sighted, cowardly thinking that got you into this mess. If everyone refused to work for free then this abuse would stop. I was in an hourly job that paid overtime. I was "promoted" to a salaried position. If I worked normal hours it was a raise in pay. As I was no longer being paid for overtime I stopped working overtime except for the occasional emergency. I was not fired. Management asked me once why I would not do overtime and I told them I don't work for free, but would be happy to discuss over time pay. They never brought it up again.
In the USA there seems to be this myth that it is best for everyone to make their own way in the world without any help. The government should get out of the way and let people succeed. The reality is that USA citizens let big companies walk all over them and the reward this behaviour by voting in governments friendly to big business and the rich.
You might want to consider unions, and voting for a government or party that is for regular citizens not the mega wealthy. A party in favour of civilized labour law that includes no firing without cause after a probation period, paid annual vacation, paid overtime, and other laws that are simply fair and levelling the playing field between employee and employer.
Anarchists never rule
I LOVE my job. I'm passionate about it. I'm good at it. I'm proud of my work. And I do it 8 hours a day.
Your implication that if a person loves doing something they should do it continuously, or the contrapositive, if they do not do it continuously they do not love doing it, is pure horseshit.
If you really enjoy doing something so much that you'll work 18 hour days doing it, that's great -- work for yourself and become rich from your efforts. Go forth and live the dream many of us share. But doing that for somebody else who takes the lion's share of profit from your 18 hour commitment? That makes you a tool.
and every time I tried to take a day off I got the hairy eye-ball from the boss.
Every year they raised my pay a few % and in the last maybe 6-8 years of work, when things were booming and companies couldn't hire engineers fast enough, and were paying ridiculous "signing bonuses", I suggested to HR that they offer a little more time off instead of jacking up pay every year. I always got a blank stare as if I was speaking some sort of alien language.
While working for HP they used to march all of us into big presentations every year at annual raise time. They would proceed to tell us with pride how their HR people sat down with the HR people from every other large engineering employer in the bay area and came up with standardized job descriptions and salary/benefits. They never said it directly, but to anyone with a brain they were saying "don't bother to look for work somewhere else because you won't get a better deal".
Of course you can't take your lousy week or two of vacation time. Start doing that and you mark yourself as ready to be kicked to the curb when the stock price drops $2/share and the $20M/year CEO's brilliant answer is to lay off a bunch of engineers. No wonder the economy sucks. Between the fuckwit politicians and the fuckwit CEOs it's a wonder we are ALL living in cardboard boxes under an overpass somewhere.
I'm definitely NOT steering my son toward a career in engineering and would never recommend anyone else living in the US to do so.
There is an old saying: "Work sucks." I like my job most of the time, but it is nothing like working for myself. Shedding politics, politics, and....peoples' shitty attitudes (a result of politics) is priceless. I feel sorry for the people who are stuck in jobs. I enjoy the ability to at least move around and enjoy the new job until I learn about the political dynamic. Then it is time to go again. When you are new it is great, but after you settle in it seemsto go down hill quick. Three years is about the most time bearable in a job. I did have one job once that was not at all stressful--working for the Red Cross. They didn't pay very much, but the environment was very laid back. Non-profits don't contain all the ladder climbers of the corporate world, and none of the bureaucrats found in government work--a win win except for the low pay.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
I'd be way too busy travelling, chasing women and generally having fun.
In Powerball Lottery Winner, women chase you!
Maybe you need to look into getting a different job. I assure you that I won powerball I would find the use for the money but I would not leave my job. Don't you have colleagues you like? Friends of yours who would hang out with you on their free time but work during the day like you?
If you had nothing to do all day, you'd get bored soon enough. Also, don't get me started on what kind of women you would find yourself chasing (as an non-working and bored millionaire). Could be fun, but not in the long run.
it doesn't mean the laws of economics don't apply
It does mean that those stupid "household" analogies don't apply, though. The laws of economics are vastly different for governments than they are for households.
There have been countless stories on the subject and they all point to the same thing -- insane work hours primarily to present an image of someone who works hard. The cost to their health and their humanity all be damned. The government officially encourages a return to sane work habits and schedules, but the government workers aren't setting a great example. An ex-girlfriend I know works for the Japanese government, works insane hours despite her current bad health and says her boss works until 3am and comes in to work at 10am.
Why is there a decline in birth rates? Why are there more old people than young people? What is the long term cost and prognosis of this? Yeah... just look to the Japanese to see what we're in for if this keeps going on.
As my law teacher always said "I always read in the papers "looking for job". Ladies and gentlemen, that's a lie. Nobody's looking for a job. Everyone's just looking for money".
It was funny when I was 18. It had become truer and truer with every day I live.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
California law treats vacation as accrued wages. If you don't take your vacation days, the employer must pay you for them at the end of employment.
Still, many employers prefer to pay than let their employees take time off.
They pay for more in absolute dollars but they pay a far lower tax rate.
When you add in fixed taxes and license fees, the difference is even more dramatic.
Top 400 familes pay about 17.5% total tax load.
The top 2.67% pay about 23% total tax load
The folks at 60% to 80% pay about 40% total tax load.
The folks at 20% (poverty) pay about 25% total tax load.
To the wealthy, $3.70 in gasoline taxes for a tank of gasoline is basically a 0% rate. To the poor, $3.70 in gasoline taxes is about 5% of their weekly income.
Same for cigarette, phone taxes, booze, sales tax, etc.
Property tax appears in your rent or in your mortgage. It runs from about 5% for the poor (but lower as they share housing) to about 3% for the middle class to about 2% for the wealthy.
I.e.
A $1000/year property tax bill embedded in their rent for a poor person is a huge chunk of their income.
A $30,000 tax bill for the top 2.67% is about 2%.
The poor spend most of their income on taxable purchases. The wealthy do not. So an 8% sales tax load hits the poor for 8% of their income while it hits the wealthy for under 1%.
Google "who pays state taxes" and also look here http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html#table3
The media owned by the wealthy has really been pushing the propaganda that the lower 50% of income earners pay no taxes.
But the more accurate statement is the bottom 50% pay low or no federal income taxes ( tho that changes big time this year now that hte earned income tax credit has been removed) while the wealthy pay a much lower percentage of their income as taxes.
It is accurate to say they pay more taxes in absolute dollars. But did you realize if the tax bill for running the country was divided evenly, it works out to over $11,000 per citizen? More like $33,000 per working person. And that's ignoring social security taxes.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I enjoy my job. I have excellent co-workers that I enjoy spending time with.
I love spending time with my family and friends while camping, visiting museums, travelling, etc. more.
To each his own, but I only work so I can support my enjoying life with friends and family habit.
If you had nothing to do all day, you'd get bored soon enough.
There are other things to do with your time than work. Why not go see the world? It's a huge fascinating place that few these days get to see. If you had the time and finances to do it.. GO. Or, if you still feel locked into a life of servitude, why not volunteer your time? Go help out at a homeless shelter, plant some trees, spend time with the lonely elderly. If you no longer have to worry about you, go help out somebody else who isn't as fortunate, and be a decent human being.
I'd be way too busy traveling, chasing women
You are doing it wrong. If you win the powerball, you don't have to chase women, they chase you.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Oh, I enjoy my job. I'm one of the few happy people who actually do what they like to do. Yet even I would quit instantly if I didn't have to earn money. Here's why.
I am in IT-Security. Not trying to go into detail, but my work is mostly to tell people why their ideas are insecure, how they could make them more secure while all the time not carrying any measurable risk myself. I get to float above the problems and sprinkle my wisdom down on the hapless managers who have to listen to me and carry the risk that I dump on their shoulders. Sounds lovely, eh? Hey, it's nice. But I'd rather go and actually do something meaningful. Like, give them a hand in their attempt to actually create something really secure. Which is something nobody actually wants, to be blunt. Security costs money but doesn't generate money. So everyone just wants the bare minimum necessary to make the risk acceptable. Nobody wants best practice, optimal performance, whatever other buzzword, if they want any crappy buzzword cocktail, they want cheapest possible. And this, folks, is decidedly NOT fun. It's the anathema of security. And I don't do it for the money. Don't think it's THAT well paid to tell managers why they're dorks. It's the job perk that keeps the salary down, it seems...
The reason I went into this business, and here's the catch, IMO for most people, is a different one than why I'm in the industry now. How many people came into game development due to their love of games, only to do now what they don't REALLY love because they have to work on games they don't enjoy? How many people went into hardware design and MCs to craft some great robotic gadgets only to do boring car logics now? And I bet I'm not the only one in itsec who has the zeal to create secure systems only to find out that there's not really a "market" for that (and sadly, we neither have a space program nor a secret service worth the name) and that they spend their time now creating a few metric tons of paper (aka cover-your-ass-paper, and about as useful as TP) instead of actually increasing security a notch.
People, at least if they have a job that doesn't include the phrase "want fries with that", usually work in a field they like or even love. It is, though, rarely exactly just what they love. In my spare time I aid friends in their attempts to create secure web pages. No paperwork, no "gotta cover your ass or get blamed", it's actually fun to do that. It just doesn't really have the volume that I could make a living off that. Companies that could pay my hourly rates are usually also the ones that are more interested in a few metric tons of paper to prove they follow some (useless, I might add) certification process than actually reaching a sensible level of security and safety.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Most comments seem to origin in the US. Some contributors may be interested in the situation in Europe. Here the data for the three biggest European economies.
-------------------
Paid Leave
European Union requires all its member states to guarantee by law minimally four weeks of paid leave for all employees.
Average paid holiday days per year for full-time employees in 2008:
- Germany 30 days, plus 10.5 days public holidays
- France 25 days, plus 11 days public holidays
- United Kingdom 24.7 days, plus 8 days public holidays
-------
Working hours
Actual average weekly work hours for full-time employees in Europe
- United Kingdom 40,9 hours (2008)
- Germany 38.8 hours (2010)
- France 38,4 hours (2008)
-------------------
And no, my experience in four European countries (UK, Germany, Switzerland, Czech Republic) suggests that workers are not punished in any way if they take their vacations.
Don't want to out my buddy...
I knew a winner of a lottery (not a powerball, but we are talking a bit south of 50M). He said almost the same thing because he liked his job, and the people he worked with, and just generally thought he wanted to do something that really filled up his time.
Fast forward a year or so, and he quit. He basically said that, sure he liked the people he worked with, but all that crap about having something to do with your time, and liking your job? total bs in the end. It became very difficult to take any sort of grief at his job, and having limited/restrictions on his movements and freedom became too much of an issue, especially with his family.
He basically said that people who SAY that they would still work at their job are people that HAVEN'T won the lottery. You can always find things to take up your time, and you can always hang out with those coworkers you liked outside of work.
Now? He travels 5 months of the year, owns a few businesses that he has other people to run, and does hockey bar-leagues to keep in shape, while spending all the rest of his time with his family, and watching his 3 kids grow up.
He would see them moved to the States, which already have employee protection laws.
"His name was James Damore."
I don't understand you can say that...why would you guess I'd have 'nothing to do all day'?
I was between gigs for 7 months a few years ago...I live in New Orleans. My typical day..get up, walk the dog around the neighborhood...eat breakfast, jump on my motorcycle, hit the gym for a couple hours...home...do some job searching, research, reading..etc...then when weather was nice, I'd hop on my bike and go all around the city. I saw things new every day...being a tourist in my city...all the art museums, hit some bars to listen to bands and run around the Quarter all day. When it got to about 3pm or so, I'd call and plan to meet some friends of mine getting off of work to have some beers....and ride a bit more around the city, and then home...cook dinner, then watch tv or play with my home toys (computers, tv, audio, etc).
I frankly almost hated that I landed another gig (and unfortuantely this time had to go W2)...I have a good job. I make a ton of money....but I sure would rather be doing what I was doing.
There is SO much to do in my city...and when I want a break, if I was powerball winner...I'd take vacations!! Travel...how can you get tired of that? Meeting new people, seeing new places, trying new foods....getting plowed on a new beach..?
I guess there are just a lot of people out of there that don't have enough imagination to figure out all the fun things to do in the world. I could easily spend the rest of my life doing just that if I didn't have to worry about money.
Hell...likely as not, after I'd settled down from the initial fun with all that money...is drop my dog off at my parents'....and jump on my motorcycle...and ride across and around the USA. So much of it I've not seen yet....
Seriously...if you didn't have to work...you don't think you could keep yourself occupied?
I don't like to work. Period...there is NO job out there that I'd like to do if I didn't have to earn a living..nothing. I easily fill my limited time away from work having an adventure in life....if I had the money, I could easily fill each and every day doing something fun and really having an adventure.
I honestly have no comprehension on how anyone else could think differently.....I guess it comes to that other concept I can't grasp...someone being defined by their work that I hear about. I guess that's why some peope really LOSE it...when they lose a job (not considering just loss of income)...but from what I understand...they actually get depressed because somehow...their job is THEM.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Amen to that. My job has been good to me, so if I won the lottery I'd probably stay on for a few months and help them find my replacement, and maybe put in some time getting the guy trained, but beyond that I'm gone.
I enjoy my job. There are things I enjoy more, but nobody is willing to pay me to do them. Take the money out of the equation and I'm going for what I like the most.
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
Yes, I was being hyperbolic to make a point and get attention.... :D
We did away with formal vacation time, sick time, etc.
You have unlimited amounts of it.
ROWE is a system where an employeer treats their employees like competent adults who know how to manage their time.
Does everyone know how to do that? No. And those people fail to get good results under ROWE and get fired.
Is measuring results hard? It's as easy or as hard as you want to make it. You can do 360 Reviews and all that BS if you want. Or you can keep it more informal, like we do.
ROWE increases productivity and employee's become amazingly loyal.
The biggest difficulty with it is for the boss(es) who feel like they are somehow losing control. Who fear that the day after they start ROWE no one will come into the office anymore. Know what really happens? People come into the office, they get work done, and they feel far, far less stress.
It is amazing. Its simple. It works. And of all the BS systems that have come and gone, this is the one that just flat out does what it says.
We'd never consider going back. Ever.
David Whatley
I enjoy my job. I work 18 hours a day, because if I don't, the others will screw up any tasks I let them do. I spend 16 hours a day fixing their mistakes so the customers don't find them. I took a vacation. 3 days in the hospital with high blood pressure and a TIA. Within 5 minutes of walking out of the hospital, my phone was ringing off the hook. Everything was falling apart, no one could figure out how to fix it. Simple instructions were answered with blank stares (well, the telephonic equivalent). Within 10 minutes of getting out of the hospital, I was on my laptop trying to fix the problem, and fielding back to back phone calls.
If I take 2 weeks off, that means I finally got someone else who could manage my job for 2 weeks. Then I am redundant. Even if it takes 2 people with less than half my skill, at 30% of my pay each, most companies would jump at the opportunity, and brag about the "savings". Well, savings, until things fall apart for them.
Modern businesses have absolutely no dedication to their employees. When there's money to be saved, they will be very happy to throw you to the curb, and hire someone who can talk shit for half your pay. I was out of any real work for 3 years because of exactly that. I'm not willing to take another 3 year vacation, wondering where I'll sleep or how I'll eat every day until I find another job.
That's the sad truth of modern business.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
I think Japan is worse. You are expected to take NO vacation (even though the company legally HAS to give you 10 working days off). So, other than national holidays that everyone else has off, you are expected to be at work. And for extra fun, you are expected to be at the office until your boss leaves. And most Japanese bosses are 50 year old men who are estranged from their wives and hence work til 8pm at night every night to avoid having to go home.
The only exceptions to this seem to be for getting married. Then you are typically expected to take 1-2 weeks off.
This is my understanding after working with different companies in Japan over the past 15+ years, although I haven't worked in Japan myself. Maybe someone in Japan can give their input.
How is S. Korea worse?
"There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur
I do not expect to get laid off with zero notice. I do not expect my company to fuck me over.
Don't go to work in the IT field, or you will be in for a nasty surprise!
Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
Wow. Your company sounds like a catastrophe and a joke. I'm not sure what sort of mental gymnastics you must go through to convince yourself you "enjoy" doing what you just described, but I'm impressed.
Why not go see the world?
Better yet, why not fake secret agent? Ladies and limos, sports cars and silencers for your paintball-but-looks-like-real gun.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Sounds like you make decent money.
A hint ... if you are in the hospital with high blood pressure and a possible heart attack then QUIT. So what if they find cost savings. Is it worth your health and to your family if you fall over dead?
Become a consultant and work on better terms that are yours and chill. It doesn't matter how much money you make if you are alone in a big house with no wife or if you fall over dead and never spend a cent of your hard earned cash. I am just saying.
http://saveie6.com/
If you're in the hospital with high blood pressure, working 18 hour days, you don't have a 'real job'. You are a slave, and the next vacation you take will be underground. You could start your own business with less stress and more control over your life. That constant threat hanging over your head is also bad for your well-being. Even if you have a family, you would do them no favours by losing your health or dropping dead.
A lot of people like to talk about how you should find a way to get paid for doing what you love, but for the vast majority of people, that's impossible. The world needs ditch diggers and customer service agents and so forth, and always will. You're not gonna find someone who really enjoys cleaning bird shit off the sidewalk, who would do it even if they didn't need the money. The vast majority of people work for the paycheck, and that will always be the case. The fact that a fellow bird shit cleaner is a good guy doesn't matter, you could always hang out with him after work (although realistically, suddenly acquiring that sort of money will quickly ruin most casual friendships).
Yeah, you'd get bored doing nothing, but there's a whole range of options between "doing nothing" and "working 40 hours a week". You could join clubs, do volunteer work, start your own little project that may or may not ever make money, etc.
Do you work in a heroin factory or something?
I know people that get varying degrees of satisfaction from what they do, but I've never even heard of that sort of behaviour before.
>Yes, I was being hyperbolic to make a point and get attention.... :D
And furthermore, if you like ROWE so much, why don't you go fill in the ROWE article on Wikipedia with some actual facts or state some actual facts here instead of shouting complete utter nonsense?
1. How does it keep managers from being abusive?
2. How does "no paid time off" not translate into no time off?
3. How is management expected to come up with metrics to measure productivity when every way of measuring productivity I've seen come down the pike consist of 1 part actual measurement and 99 parts BS?
4. If informal metrics (like you say you use) are used, how are YOY comparisons made? How does that combat favoritism and backstabbing?
5. Like other people have asked, how does this not mean unrealistic expectations over time? You can only pile on geometric rates of improvement for so long.
But I suspect that you will answer none of these.
--
BMO
if I won the powerball tomorrow, I doubt I'd even go back in to collect the few personal things I keep at my desk.
Maybe you need to look into getting a different job. I assure you that I won powerball I would find the use for the money but I would not leave my job. Don't you have colleagues you like? Friends of yours who would hang out with you on their free time but work during the day like you?
If you had nothing to do all day, you'd get bored soon enough. Also, don't get me started on what kind of women you would find yourself chasing (as an non-working and bored millionaire). Could be fun, but not in the long run.
Sure, I like them fine, and I'd like seeing them more like 5 hours a week, instead of 40.
I'd actually continue with the project I'm involved in at work, but it would shift down from taking 80% of my productive time to maybe 30%, I'd be involved with it on my terms, and I'd certainly find time to do other things that I want to to.
The difference between "work" and "self-determined endeavor" goes something like this for me:
"Work" - means that you diligently apply best effort 40 hours a week to most efficiently achieve the stated goals. I will code a module, make it good enough for the task at hand, integrate it, test it, document it so other people (and I) can work with it in the future, and then f'ing forget about it while I move on to the next task. Nothing is particularly artful, beautiful or polished because that's not what the company needs - even if I might enjoy doing fewer things to a higher level of completion.
"Self-Determined Endeavor" goes something like this - over the holiday I opted to do some work on my car, instead of choosing the "efficient" route and having a professional do the work, I took the time to do it myself. I started by clearing some shelf space in the garage, then sweeping out the floor - there were a bunch of leaves in the driveway so I got out the leafblower and cleaned those up, and cleared off the sidewalk and some cobwebs on the front of the house while I was at it. Some things needed to shift into the shed, so it got a bit of cleaning and straightening too. Not exactly the way I'd go about "paid work," but still an efficient application of my time and effort. While I was working on the car, I discovered I needed additional parts that took a few days to arrive, since the garage was cleared out and clean, I used the space to build a couple of tables that I had been wanting to make. By the time the car was done, a whole lot more grease and dirt had been removed from the engine than if a professional had done the job, more loose nuts and bolts were found and fixed, and some rusty intake pipes were sanded and repainted.
I know, tl/dr, if I were a professional writer, I'd come to the point in a more direct and engaging fashion, but, see, that's the difference, you're not paying me to write this post, I'm doing it because _I_ want to.
I'll just stop you there.
No they aren't. Americans suffer from 'presenteeism', people coming to work for more hours than is necessary and achieving no more than folks working half the time in other countries. It's a sickness. It puts appearance over output and it does nobody any real good.
As an example - I work for a huge multinational. A couple of years back several thousand Americans were laid off, while the workforce was held static in Europe and Australia, despite the generally higher costs in these places.
But the sub $100,000 from a million would be insufficient. I'd need something supplementing it.
Keep in mind that you'd pay long-term capital gains of only 15% rather than 28%, basically boosting your ($100k) income by $13k/year (and for $200k/year at 33%, add another $5k/$100k/year savings to that).
And I don't know about you, but I could certainly get by on a take-home income of $85k/year - Hell, I make somewhat less than that gross, and live pretty damned well for my area.
If what you're saying is true (and if it is, I'm not even quite sure how you found time to read this article on Slashdot and post a reply?) ... you *really* need to sit back, think about what you just wrote, and ask yourself if that's REALLY how you want your life to be from here forward!
First of all, I would assume and hope you're getting paid pretty well for working all those 18 hour days and having so much responsibility. That means, you're simply not doing something right if you haven't been able to put aside some of that money in savings, in case you DO need to switch jobs and don't have a check for a while. (So that situation you're so afraid of, of being out of work for 3 years and not knowing how you were going to sleep or eat shouldn't have to happen again.)
Second, yep, fewer and fewer businesses have any loyalty to employees, but that should be a 2-way street! If they view you as that "expendable", then why work so hard for them?! Do the basics outlined in your job description, and not anything more unless you actually WANT to do it. If, like you say, they "throw you to the curb" thinking they can get someone a lot cheaper to do the same or better, LET THEM. Either they're right and you were simply getting paid too much for the value you actually brought to their table, or (much more likely) they'll fail a few times in a row and start adjusting their expectations and/or pay scale as they learn how wrong they were.
And third? Maybe you need to spend less time worrying about customers running into these mistakes you're concerned about, and more time documenting procedures so OTHERS can do some of these tasks properly? It sounds like right now, a lot of people are getting paid to screw things up that you're putting in all these insane hours correcting. You've got to break that cycle, even IF it means a temporary drop in customer satisfaction ....
Go to France. Labor laws in there are incredible. It actually makes you feel like you landed in a different planet.
It's not uncommon for people to show up 30-45 minutes early and a lot of times we forget to leave until the cleaning crew comes in to remind us.
Anyone in your office have a spouse? Kids? Close friends, even? (And if they do have kids my question is "why?")
Ditto
Someone told me that is unconfortable to work from home because kids keep talking to you, wife would fight for attention , etc.
Bullshit, office people tend to try to attract attention too, and they are not my familiy, do i prefer not seeing a lot of people by staying with my family most of the time?
Hell yeah, any day
I'm positive, don't belive me look at my karma
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I was once told by my manager that I could take vacation when, and only when, the project I was working on was finished. It was a two-year project that was dreamed up by my non-technical manager (the CIO, believe it or not) without my input (or the technical input from any other technology people in the company) and was doomed to failure because it would never work. My manager was looking for a scapegoat to assign blame to, as he finally realized his pet project was the fiasco I told him it would be.
Meanwhile, I am getting emails from Human Resources telling me that I have to take my vacation time or lose it.
It is a no win situation for technical people.
Netflix has the right solution on this topic......
My company makes it clear they don't like granting vacation. New hires get a few days off, if they survive the probation period -and the company is fast to fire and drag in fresh meat.
A fair number of us, however, were employees acquired through the purchase of another company. Even though we are grandfathered in, we lose because we've been with the acquisition for a decade or more in many cases, and the company maxes out vacations for people at this level.
We get a max of about 28 days. If you take it, you are liable to find they've hired somebody to replace you while you were gone, or that the position was eliminated. Or find that projects got assigned while you are away and deliberately set to violate the due date before you got back. It is very common for other teams to find out someone is out and dump projects on them hours or minutes before the SLA timer runs out, so the SLA failure violation goes to the unaware recipient and not the person who actually dragged feet. They come in later and pull the projects back but the "failure" stays with the person who had the project at the time it went past due. This is a shitty system and is sanctioned by management. Survival of the fittest is how it was described to me. They have 3000 resumes on file. If somebody gets fired, they can hire several immigrant workers (they only hire such) to replace that person and even if two thirds of the new hires flop, they still get out ahead and probably for less money.
In light of these games, few dare take the time off. On the other hand, if you don't take it, the days to not rollover to the following year so you lose them. This is because you cannot have more than the 28 base days in a year and extras would be more than that, so you lose them automatically.
There is no option to bank vacation days, sell them to other employees, cash them out, or anything. You just lose them.
In the old days, before we were bought out, the relationship between management and workers was completely different. The company urged everyone to take time, pestered them to do so, protected their backs while they were out, and if something went wrong and you had to come in or work on a holiday, you'd get paid double time for the day and granted a flex day to use later. I miss that, but heck I would settle for an employer who just didn't begrudge the hell out of the workers and what they promise to give to the workers.
And every day I pass a bridge with dozens of homeless sleeping underneath and am reminded how lucky I am to just have a job at all. Shrug.
Sig for hire.
You're welcome to try your luck in Sweden. As long as you have a job here, you can get a work visa indefinitely, and after five to ten yours, you become naturalised (meaning, you can choose to change your citizenship).
Just be aware that there are ups and downs to every country. I've never been to the USA, but I suspect the political correctness is much worse here. You're expected to fit in, be polite and avoid open conflicts, and that includes the workplace.
Swedish leadership culture may take some time to get used to; often, the boss and the staff sits around and talks until they find a solution everyone is reasonably happy with. For an outsider, it may seem like nothing has been decided at all, because the group slowly converges to the decision during the discussion.
Great post. I look at my dad who worked at the same company for 38 years. It wasn't his first job but it was his last, he was "forced" to retire a few years back. He will tell anyone that he loved what he did and would work there for free if he could, he even went back as a consultant for a few small projects after he retired. (the company is now closed)
I started the engineering career game in 97, and from all the changes in the world, the economy, and unsatisfying jobs or corporate BS I just haven't found that right job or company, or maybe it's just life. I've yet found a company where I could even imagine myself there for 38 years. In a way I wish I could.
Flappinbooger isn't my real name
Seriously, if the picture in the US is as bad as some of you are painting, move. Seriously. I mean to another country. The rest of the western world is just no where near as fucked up. At the very least, drop any delusions that this is something we are all suffering under. No, it's just you. We don't know why you put up with it, but you really don't have to.
I'm an Australian engineer. My boss is always kind and courteous to me (and would be in trouble if he wasn't). He isn't out to screw me, he is part of the team. We are encouraged to take the 4 weeks of leave we accrue annually (it rolls over if you don't take it and there are thresholds where they start whinging at you to take it). We get paid overtime, and any doctoring of timesheets to work past the overtime caps is strictly discouraged. Actually, in truth, getting overtime as an engineer is fairly rare, but there is usually a TOIL system or equivalent such that you are only working the hours you are paid for on average. There are constant campaigns reminding people about work-life balance. There is even one day of the week where overtime is basically not approved and you get in trouble if you stay back to work on a project (meant so that even in busy times, you see your family occasionally). Work on weekends, while not totally prohibited, is extremely rare (i've never done it in 3 years). It requires special approval and they have to pay 1.5x your hourly rate.
I'm not trying to boast here, just trying to counter the hopeless view some of you have that it is the same everywhere and you should just cop it.