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Zimmerman Charged With 2nd-Degree Murder
George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot Trayvon Martin, was charged with second-degree murder. He faces up to life in prison if convicted in the shooting. From the article: "Special prosecutor Angela Corey announced the charges but would not discuss how she arrived at them or disclose other details of her investigation, saying: 'That's why we try cases in court.'
Second-degree murder is typically brought in cases when there is a fight or other confrontation that results in death and but does [not] involve a premeditated plan to kill.
Corey would not disclose Zimmerman's whereabouts for his safety but said that he will be in court within 24 hours."
MSNBC has already been saying for 44 days that the only 'justice' is a conviction. I kind of hope George is murdered in the court room or barring that if he's found not guilty somehow that there's a Rodney King style 3 day race riot that leaves 30 dead.
Not news for nerds.
Too much politics here creeping on this site.
Goodbye Slashdot. It's been nice knowing you.
I don't understand how this is news for nerds. Maybe it is stuff that matters if overblown, racially charged issues matter to you. However, there are bigger news items that don't make it to /.
Is this really slashdot worthy?
Is there any reason this story should be posted on slashdot? It has no bearing or relevance to tech, or any conceivable issue related to nerd news.
This is not your blog, editors. There is a purpose to this site, and you should stick with it.
Watch as this comment goes to -1, while any comments that say it is slashdot-worthy get modded up.
Is this what passes as news for nerds nowadays?
And this is news that I care about? Get back to fusion, code, tech, etc. I can read about this on CNN.
And why do we care?
Why can't we use 'Stand Your Ground' against abusive cops who bust your door down in a botched bust? Or is there no such thing as self defense against a cop?
Being indicted in the media. Fantastic.
He acted in self defense, this has no business even being in court. He shot a drug abusing teenage kid who was there only because he was suspended from school.
There are no witnesses except Zimmerman.
What if Trayvon had killed Zimmerman instead? It's alright for blacks to kill whites, mexicans, asians, and all other races, but not the other way around.
Good luck in finding an objective jury.
Shouldn't that be but does not involve?
Wow, crack Slashdot-style editing there.
Is it already racism to make the charge only second - degree murder? What are the options?
http://stephan.sugarmotor.org
This entire case is a crock of bullshit. When two black teens set a white kid on fire, a clear hate crime, it hardly gets a column in the local news. But when a hispanic guy kills a black teen it garnishes national media attention?
Fuck Sharpton and Jackson, where were they then? Did Obama come out and say "If I had a son, he'd look like Coon"?
Source: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station
Recent photos of Trayvon: http://i39.tinypic.com/1yvg5h.jpg
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
geez louise, this site is sucking monkey balls!
"and but does". Yeah.
He was not a neighborhood watch volunteer. He had no affiliation with any organization, no training and this whole tragedy stemmed from his disregard for standard neighborhood watch procedure.
He was an armed vigilante.
Sorry, this isn't Slashdot worthy. There are some things that affect lots of people that are sometimes slashdot worthy, but this isn't one of them. This story is about media baiting the gullible public (and how they are) into following a story. This is just another OJ.
TFS isn't tied up well because it's missing a "not".
"Second-degree murder is typically brought in cases when there is a fight or other confrontation that results in death and but does not involve a premeditated plan to kill."
(T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
....human beings get killed every day. this trevor martin kid was no different
While interviewing various people (PBS Nightly News last week I think), one of the interviewees (sp?) said what happens frequently is a drug dealer will shoot at another, the other drug dealer returns fire but bullets hit innocent bystander. The drug dealer returning fire will say to police he was defending himself so no charges are placed, which illustrated problems with "stand your ground" law.
mfwright@batnet.com
Zimmerman? Is that some US guy?
Can someone please fire the moronic US-centered slashdot-editors that has no geeky credentials whatsoever? Like samzenpus? Please?
The entire zimmerman-case has NOTHING to do with geeky news.
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
I don't know how you can both pursue someone against the advice of a 911 operator and claim self-defense.
This is a local matter. Keep the damn politics off of slashdot... unless it involves technology.
Someone put six bullet holes, last night they shot up, a parked police car that was left near the scene of the shooting. The message being that violence against the police is coming if they don't arrest Zimmerman and charge him with murder. They shot up a cop car. As if that neighborhood didn't need a reason for a neighborhood watch now they have guys firing live rounds into police cars? That's a safe neighborhood?
The amount of media coverage. International press. 24/7 news cycle. The constant lies. "Zimmerman is white". Showing images of Trayvon Martin when he was only 12 and not 17 (and 6'3"). Editing the 911 call from Zimmerman to make him seem racist. The media wants a circus. A race riot. They want another OJ trial, or Rodney King riot, or Casey Anthony or Amanda Knox level ratings. Who cares if the guy is innocent or guilty or whatever. What's most important is getting ratings and possibly causing a race riot.
And now we have the political pressure. Elections. Press. Appealing to the base. Even Obama had to give his opinion. "If I had a son he'd look like Trayon". Please Mr. President throw more gasoline on the fire. This is before Obama knew of the facts of the case. Just like when Obama blurted out an opinion about the cop who arrested the Harvard professor and then ended up having to have beer at the White House with the both of them. Will Obama have a beer with George Zimmerman?
This event is exposing the worst of this country. A perfect storm of all that is wrong with where we are today. The media being anything but objective. The politics doing nothing but making everything racial and partisan. And the overwhelming majority of citizens ignoring the facts and rushing to judgement.
I am really curious to know what evidence they have to justify a second degree murder charge.
I come here to get away from this kind of stuff. Can we Please get back to the geek stuff? Or maybe it's time I just found somewhere else to lurk.
Well, they both had a cell phone. Maybe this was the first casualty in the Android - iPhone war.
Shit just got real.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
There should be a way to moderate asshats who insist on posting !news for nerds articles.
This does not belong on Slashdot. Please take it off.
- Nerd
This is not a slashdot worth story. I'd be really sad if I had to stop reading this site due to irrelevant articles.
Charley Manson was denied parole... I know...equally irrelevant to you pasty white nerds, but what the hell...
Zim was an asshole, but baring any new evidence of direct discrimination, he will probably walk. There are just not enough details on the confrontation for a conviction. We don't know who said what to who or who attacked first.
I hope they can at least get a civil suit against him. Those have a lower burden of evidence.
You can tell from the 911 recording he wanted to be Clint Eastwood and was itching for showdown, and he got one. Kick him in the wallet.
Table-ized A.I.
This bullshit submission has zero merit for being on this site.
A more relevant article would be a video of the submitter receiving 20 lashes from the Cat-5-O-Nine-tails!!
Yes, we get general news online and there is no reason to put it here.
Who the fuck would miss this item if it were NOT on Slashdot?
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
If someone is shot and killed an investigation is necessary for the justice of the dead. Even if the dead kid was guilty of vicious assault and the shooter is found to be completely and unquestionably justified in his use of a firearm for self defense the lack of an investigation; the lack of an investigation is an injustice to the dead.
It's clear that a combination of the PD's layzness, defacto/latent racism, and this "Stand your ground" law have lead to this complete circus. People are justifiably outraged because there was no investigation when there clearly should have been one. A proper investigation may have been able to clear Zimmerman's name.
This is why "Stand your ground" laws are bad. Someone who uses a firearm in self defense may think they are being served, but in reality justice is being denied. Both for them, and for whoever takes the bullet. This case is proof.
MOD PARENT UP for truthiness!
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
He's an asshole because he ignored the 911 operator's instructions to wait for the cops, and got out of his car with a gun to confront somebody.
(Didn't he think it out? What did he intend to do after he confronted Martin? It had to turn out bad.)
It seems harsh to send somebody to jail for a big part of his life because he's an asshole. I feel sorry for him.
But somebody is dead because he's an asshole. I feel even more sorry for Martin, and Martin's friends and family.
In America we do give people long prison sentences for killing somebody in a street fight.
A lot of black people in Florida go to jail for less.
What else can you do with Zimmerman?
Yes, you do go to jail for being stupid.
Give me a break, guys. I just opened the main page. Before the page refreshes to show more stories on /., there were 14 stories, and 12 of them are entirely devoted to some form of nerdity. A couple sneak in, either political or a more "fun" angle, and everyone starts throwing toys of of their prams. I knew why this article had almost one hundred comments before stepping in, because everyone simply HAD to come in and get all Mr. and Mrs. McBabypants. I suppose I myself am catering to that mindset in complaining as well, but this happens in the science/astronomy/technology/etc. based stories all the time. "This isn't news", "Boring!", "Such-n-such is better than shitty-thingamabob, /. sucks!"... wtf do you want, people?
I expect to be modded down for this, but whatever.
You want to know how to help your kids? LEAVE THEM THE F*&K ALONE. --George Carlin
This story, although on everyone's mind, is not a Slashdot type of story.
BTW - They are only bringing charges, so he can be cleared of guilt in a formal process.
Essentially the posters are saying that nerds aren't black so this is irrelevant to nerds.
What did stormfront just blow in here?
These "Stand Your Ground" Laws that we have thanks to ALEC and the NRA are meant only to protect white people who shoot blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, etc.
Have a look at how "Stand Your Ground" is applied when it's the other way around.
Funny, I didn't hear anything from the NRA and the right-wing media in that Georgia case. But I did hear a right-wing talker today talking about how the increasing American sense that race relations are deteriorating is Barack Obama's fault.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Pretty soon police will be confined to being able to do nothing more than asking criminals to stop committing crimes. Ask too harshly and it will be a hate crime.
Cue the folks who don't want the outside world intruding into their mothers' basements shrieking "This isn't news for nerds!"
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
There was no arrest that night because 1. The only (living) witness was Zimmerman. Evidence on the scene confirmed his testimony/statements. Unless he was caught in a lie while talking to the officers, the story looked like self-defense. 2. Without evidence people walk. It is better to let a guilty man free that to lock up an innocent man... every time. Remember Jules (arrested for the Atlanta Olympic bombings) he was arrested on FBI profiling and a proximity to the crime scene (tried in the public court) and then released without prejudice. However it ruined his life.... I think that prosecutor will have a hard time piecing enough evidence together to make the charges stick if the defendant pleads the 5th. I hope everyone lets due process happen and the evidence will speak for itself. Peace out
Bread and circuses. Don't discuss anything important, especially if it's complex. Go after something visceral like this case or Kim Kardishiam's bra / toenail / latest sex change operation.
Oh, we just invaded another country? Look! Over there! A breast!
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Too bad I live in a different county. I'm more than willing to vote not guilty unless there's some serious BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT evidence. Stand your ground exists because police are not private security. The police didn't protect George Zimmerman and they sure as hell didn't protect Treyvon Martin. Police arrive AFTER a crime is committed. They investigate, turn over evidence to the state attorney, and hope for a conviction.
There are some police who don't like citizens defending themselves at all. Not only could it endanger the police officer, it makes people less reliant on their "services".
Finally, the citizens give the police a badge and a gun (and a bunch of other equipment). If certain officers are too afraid of getting shot to do their job, they need to quit. We'll either find someone else or do without.
In Canada, the first thing the courts would do would call for a media black out until the judgement is rendered, and then likely another black out until sentencing. The idea is to prevent bias in the potential jury pool.
Unfortunately, due to incompetence and delays in deciding to file charges and make an arrest, they're going to have one hell of a time finding a "jury of peers" that isn't tainted by public opinion and forced to recuse themselves from participating.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
"Meant only to protect white people"? What an inflammatory and completely unsupported thing to say. Like so many other people, when you can't actually find evidence for racism, you just fabricate claims of racism.
In the case you cite, the shooter, a black male, was not arrested and was not charged for an entire year. Eventually, under public pressure, the DA did charge the shooter and he was found guilty by a jury.
I don't see how the cases are analogous either. Zimmerman claims to have been attacked by Martin from behind, while walking back to his car, and that's consistent with physical evidence. McNeil seems to have provoked a confrontation. Even if McNeil should have been found innocent, how does one injustice justify another one? Would racially based injustice against black men mean that we need to dismantle our legal system altogether, just to justify the mob?
At this point, the only way to settle this is for it to go to trial. The facts need to be laid out in court, experts need to testify, and a jury needs to decide.
I think there's a good chance that a jury will find Zimmerman "not guilty". The DA's original assessment was that there wasn't even enough evidence to win a conviction, and that's consistent with the evidence that has come out since.
http://www.wheresgeorge.com/
Oh, this Beta, it is not so good.
The 911 operator told him that he didn't "need to" follow Martin and Zimmerman said "OK" and was going to wait by his car for police. Zimmerman testified that he was returning to his car and it was Martin who confronted him and then punched him. Witnesses saw Zimmerman on the ground, with Martin on top, and Zimmerman's injuries and dirty clothing support that.
I don't know of any actual evidence that support the idea that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's suggestion and followed and attacked Martin. Maybe you can share what evidence you think there is?
There is no evidence that Zimmerman confronted Martin.
I don't know whether that's true or not, but if racism causes the justice system to be unreasonably harsh towards black people, then we need to fix that, instead of destroying our justice system for everybody.
There is so much misinformation about such laws, and the media is perfectly happy to repeat it without checking facts. Or they just make it up.
Par for the course when it comes to gun-related topics.
This is on slashdot because.....?????
They're talking about a bloody race war, they're talking about a price on Zimmerman's head, making the "cracker" pay. They're pissed the blacks in that area of Florida are supposedly too scared of the police to rise up and start killing people. This is all in a recorded phone call.
Remember, "Kill a cracker for Trayvon." No kidding, that's a quote.
Crickets from Obama's Department of Justice of course, not going to do anything against Holder's "people."
I'm not sure what from the article would even hint that McNeil provoked the confrontation. Epp was in McNeil's son's backyard, ran towards McNeil, and had a knife in his pocket after threatening McNeil's son with the knife.
He went into hiding, probably depressed. Didn't stay in touch with his lawyers.
Then, worst mistake, he called the DA and talked to them without a lawyer present.
He's screwed.
duke energy has dropped its plans for a new power plant in Atlanta citing the rotational velocity of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Junior has decreased exponentially as of recent.
Good people go to bed earlier.
the charges but would not discuss how she arrived at them
Guess they don't want a riot on their hands.
is this here? seriously, how is this tech news at all?
These "Stand Your Ground" Laws that we have thanks to ALEC and the NRA are meant only to protect white people who shoot blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, etc.
Look, I understand that you want white people to be murdered before they're allowed to defend themselves against blacks, but you do realize that Zimmerman is half Hispanic, don't you?
I guess that pretty much blows your entire narrative up in your face, doesn't it?
In any other juristiction in the civilized world, he would have been arrested about 12 hours after the incident, and at least where I live, would have seen a judge at least once (even if its just a pre-trial hearing). He might have also had a psychological assessment. If he wasn't able to afford a lawyer, he would have had a court appointed lawyer and perhaps some other legal services. But that's where I live. Florida is a long way from where I live.
If you're not interested, old timer, why are you in this discussion? /. has changed over the years. The whole internet has. Live with it. If you're not interested in an article, don't read it and then bitch because you don't like the topic. /. Today's /. is not your grandfather's /. - Oh, wait! Looking at your number you ARE the grouchy old grandfather. You want us to get off of your lawn, perhaps?
First we have the over-the-top slashvertisement with the Plan****tronix thing last week, and now this not-news-for-nerds news story. I go to other news sources when I want straight-up national, international, or pop-culture news, and I like it that way. Don't get peas in my carrots!
Is slashdot getting this desperate for ad clicks?
How is this news for nerds?
So some people have made reference to Trayvon assaulting Zimmerman, then Zimmerman "stood his ground" justifying the act under Florida law.
Yet I've seen no one say that Trayvon was standing HIS ground under that same law when Zimmerman shot him.
After all, Zimmerman stalked Trayvon. Whether Trayvon took a swing at him first is not relevant if he felt threatened, at least by the above reasoning.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/the-monitors-view/2012/0411/A-tsunami-warning-system-makes-waves
I'd have expected to see something in slashdot about the huge earthquakes near Indonesia and their results. Why do undersea earthquakes sometimes cause catastrophe and sometimes do not?
The Zimmerman arrest poses no such nerdish question.
They have to prove that he did not shoot in self defense. So unless he get's a complete tool for a lawyer they will not convict him.
Please cue all the "ZOMG RACIST!" comments directed toward me for daring to suggest that he actually fired in self defense and did not hunt and gun down the black kid in a hoodie because he was on a racial murder hunt like the radicalized minority groups want everyone to believe.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
My brain read "Zimmerman" as "Zuckerberg". How alarming.
They are MEANT to protect anyone who stands their ground. They are horribly mis-used to racist ends far too often, but that is not what was meant.
Not. I don't come here to read about shit posted everywhere else.
But I did hear a right-wing talker today talking about how the increasing American sense that race relations are deteriorating is Barack Obama's fault.
It would be hard to believe Obama isn't partially at fault anyway. I don't hear him trying to bring the two together. I hear him sympathize about Trevar, and if he had a son, etc. I have also seen him do a lot (I mean a lot) of finger pointing during his presidency.
For a man who is supposed to be such a uniting force, there is little substance behind it. I'm not sure the last time pointing fingers, and creating such a misleading marketing campaign has ever brought people together. If ever there was a divider of people in this country, it's our president.
I voted for the man, thinking his words somehow meant something. Turns out, he turned me off of an entire party, possibly for life.
Are you 100% sure this isn't first degree murder?
1) wanted to kill someone
lets say yes to this and see where it goes
2) The number one problem if you want to kill someone, anyone is that you generally get arrested locked up and depending on where optionally executed. how do you avoid these consequences?
How about what Zimmerman actually did?
His victim was largely irrelevant as long as they matched the profile of somebody who could be "lawfully" killed. little old lady walking her dog wouldn't do obviously.
provoke an assault and then
3) carry out the plan.
Yes that bit was done too, he had a window between informing the 911 dispatcher of a "situation" and the Police arriving in which to kill his victim.
so yes murder 1 , but proving murder1 is going to be difficult without witnesses. Maybe he researched the relevant case law online or something.
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
A grown ass man shoots a kid. What a piece of shit.
Trayvon got what he deserved. At least he won't be a menace to decent people anymore. Rot in hell, Trayvon.
http://reason.com/archives/2012/04/04/shooting-in-the-dark
This gives an interesting perspective... and it's not MSNBC, FOX, or the Black Panthers....
It's time to stop and think before this all goes to hell.
What made this case national news is NOT because a light-skinned guy killed a black guy, or that he was 17 years old, or that he was only holding candy. What made this story news is that the local police dropped the investigation like a hot potato (possibly because of Zimmerman's parents job titles), held onto the body without informing the parents when they had ID and his phone (which family and friends called BTW), then announced that there wouldn't be charges based on spurious coverage under their stand-your-ground law.
All of the false equivalence citations to coverage of other cases where a black guy killed a white guy, how black kids dress, or how Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are "uppity troublemakers" is totally IRRELEVANT!
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Trayvon Martin got all the justice he deserved, at a high velocity.
Wow, this is completely disturbing and downright scary that a citizen's natural right to self preservation is casually being tossed aside as a result of social ignorance, reverse discrimination not to mention pure hatred.
Where the hell is the public outcry for the Baltimore hate beating victim?????
WTF is wrong with this country?????
My first thought on seeing the article title was that we have another Hans Reiser. After all on a News for Nerds site, what other zimmerman whould they be talking about.
"Personally I'm convinced his status as 'Judges son' has everything to do with how his case was handled."
I've seen this said before. Do you have any reputable -- hell semi-reputable reference that his father was a judge? Meaning no comments on web sites, Huffington Post, Daily Kos etc. What court did he serve on?
Everything I've googled can't find a reference to his being a judge. I would suspect that his name would be someplace on the courts website, even if he is retired.
I think you're picking at the detail with your own bias.
It was Zimmerman's gun, Zimmerman followed Martin, which means Zimmerman didn't fear Martin and had a negative view of him.
Was the negative view racially motivated? IT DOES NOT MATTER. Murder is murder, it makes no difference if Zimmerman followed a black man or white man then shot him.
At the end of the day, it could be *you* whose dead in the gutter due to Zimmerman, would you want him convicted of murder then?
Just to remind you, once more, it was Zimmerman who shot Martin with Zimmerman's own gun, after following him despite being told not to by the police.
It's for the courts to try him for 2nd degree murder which is the correct charge for this case, and it's for the jury to decide based on the evidence.
As I read the case, McNeil admitted to taking out his weapon and choosing not to retreat. Am I not reading that correctly? Zimmerman, in contrast, claims to have been attacked by Martin, pinned to the ground and beaten, and that it was Martin who was reaching for his weapon.
I'm not stating an opinion about McNeil's guilt or innocence, simply that the two cases are quite different from one another. Furthermore, keep in mind that McNeil was not charged until a year after the incident, calling into question claims that Zimmerman would have been arrested immediately if he had been black.
I haven't seen this mentioned yet but in the US, the standard for conviction on criminal charges of any kind is "beyond a reasonable doubt" as established by a jury of your peers.
Does ANYONE honestly believe there is no reasonable doubt here? Of course there is. And that is why I think he will be found not guilty.
I don't have a dog in the hunt so I don't have to pick a side. I just call it like I see it and by any measure, it's going to be hard to prove murder 2nd degree "beyond a reasonable doubt".
seriously? KelTec's are butt ugly but they are not unreliable. huge numbers of people carry the P3AT or other small light pistols from KelTec.
Where else are the basement dwellers going to express their outrage?
Seriously, who cares? I'm glad he's dead. One down, 42 million to go. I'd rather read an article about research into race specific bio-weapons or some sort of UAV system which can finally solve this issue.
Guilty: Bunch of people bitching about a lynching
Not Guilty: This is where you get your flames, literally, during the murderous riot that will ensue.
Kind of like how the left-wing media played blame Bush (and still does so occasionally, even now that he has been out of office for 3 years)?
Face it, if you buy in to most anything that mainstream media reports, you are going to get some form of bias with that story. Even stories without noticeable bias are reported on while others go without mention; that is another form of bias. Anything that you believe needs to be checked and cross referenced by several sources. Most of the crap that comes out is slanted in some way or another to get ratings or to piss of group X on this day, and group Y the next day. It is what gets viewers hooked. That is why I do not watch mainstream news, if I had to do that, I would feel obligated to try to find facts about details that are left out of the stories so that I can develop an unbiased as possible opinion.
Another reason I like this site... but stories like this get posted on a tech site. That is another point though. I guess what I am saying is, wake up and stop being a sheep to what you see on Fox, CNN, NBC, etc.
They'll kill you first, and never be charged.
He was told ( from the 911 tape ): "You don't have to do that." That is a far cry from being told to stop.
previously all white country
I think you're very, very confused.
Conspiracy much?
I normally hesitate to respond in such a way.. but... are you smoking crack?
Your point one presumption is a bloody huge presumption with exactly no evidence to back it up. As to your second point, are you really trying to say that Zimmerman intentionally set out to kill someone and then just hope that he could stand behind the non-existent shield of "Hold your ground"? That is a mind numbing huge gamble, wouldn't you say? Contrary to what some people of limited knowledge and intelligence on the subject say, you can't just shoot a person and then throw up your hands and yell "He was coming right at me!" Nor could you provoke a minor assault and "carry out the plan". No one is going to buy that you were in serious danger of death or grievous injury absent non-trivial wounds to yourself or at the least arms on the part of the other person.
This also fails Occam's Razor.
Which is more likely and simpler?
A) That Zimmerman hatched a complicated plan to allow himself to "legally" kill someone at great risk of serious physical injury and/or jail time.
or
B) Under what could likely be called questionable judgement he decided to follow Martin around the neighborhood, and then for currently unknown/uncertain reasons got out of his car and followed an undetermined distance on foot. At which point either Martin or Zimmerman (facts in dispute) started a physical altercation, of which Zimmerman was getting the worse of. Fearing for his life Zimmerman shot Martin.
At no point am I addressing whether following Martin around was a good idea, what his motivations were beyond being suspicious of him or any of the rest. The fact is, we don't know any of that so anything any of us say is speculation at best. Either way, your scenario is silly and braindead and even if point B isn't the way it went down it damned sure wasn't point A.
Murder Two at best/worst and even that only if it can be proven that Zimmerman attacked Martin and was in no serious danger himself.
I was raised on the command line, bitch
"Nemo me impune lacesset"
It's kind of sick that you would wish for him being murdered in court or that there is a race riot, but i think you will probably get your wish. I expect that he will get off and that there will be riots so enjoy. I don't expect the riots to follow the same progression as those from the Rodney King. It will be a lot more violent and a lot more rioters will be shot.
Zimmerman was never told to stop. He was told " You don't have to do that." Zimmerman wasn't even stalking him. He stayed in the vehicle until martin went around the "conservatory"(???) then he went up to the conservatory to see what he was doing. When he got there Martin ran away. Zimmerman then started to go his vehicle to meet police at "the mailboxes". This is all from the 911 tape.
At that point it is hard to see how Zimmerman "engaged" Martin. It almost had to be Matin "engaging" ZImmerman after contact was broken.
Technically magistrate judges are real judges, but AFAIK they don't hear cases. What they basically do is rule on routine motions in cases to take the load off District Court Judges. They basically rule on routine motions like discovery motions, addmisability motions etc.
Of no grand jury indictment. Why not? Getting a grand jury indictment is not hard, the standard for it is pretty low and the grand jury knows the prosecutor. However they are there for a reason: To try and keep the real bullshit cases out of court. So it worries me that they didn't get an indictment. They really should in this case, the 5th amendment stars out with "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury." This would seem to qualify to me.
The concern I really have is if they don't think they could even get an indictment then the trial will be nothing but a show trial, one that will further drag shit out. If they could have gotten one, they should have, as I imagine they do in most felony cases.
Yes, exactly. All the pro-Zimmerman posts (stretching from the top of the page all the way down) and now the anti-McNeil post make me wonder if Khipu is a member of Zimmerman's family.
- elgo
I disagree - Santorum was of international interest to those interested in science and technology due to his stand against science. I'm not even in the USA and care little about Republican (or Democrat) blind tribalism but found him of interest.
There were articles like that and this one way back in the first year of Slashdot anyway.
I used to take comfort in the fact that I could come to Slashdot and find sanctuary from the whatever media feeding frenzy was currently grabbing headlines... Now Slashdot doesnt even provide that service.
So on top of Slashvertising, dupes, terrible and often inaccurate summaries.. What makes Slashdot any different than the mainstream press websites? I think its time to take a hiatus from here and reintroduce myself to Arstechnica
I could have been Phil, that would have been a news for hackers/nerds/geeks
Zimmerman is black!? are you colour blind or perhaps just ignorant!?
That's the point, genius. The law is supposed to protect a guy who is defending himself. It didn't defend the black guy who was clearly defending himself.
You are fucking-A right it means that. If this system is based on "equal protection under the law" but it has not worked out that way, then it's time to get out pencils and paper, know what I mean?
You are welcome on my lawn.
You are welcome on my lawn.
He just killed a nigger that attacked him. He should be getting an award, not a murder charge.
And how do you know what was MEANT when ALEC and the NRA cocked up these laws? Since this is the same outfit that is pushing minority voter suppression laws, and school privatization laws, and anti-minimum wage laws, I think you've got the burden of proof for what they MEANT to do with this law.
The fact that so many "Stand Your Ground" laws appear in Southern states, is further reason to doubt what the law MEANT.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Who F@#king cares. It serves no purpose on this website
Are you on crack?
An armed man goes looking for trouble in his neighbourhood streets, what was going to happen once he found it?
If he had no intent on killing someone then why carry the gun in the first place?
He was armed and dangerous and looking for trouble, the facts speak for themselves he killed the boy!
Even if he had been found holding the boy at gunpoint would the Police have said good job Zimmerman thats one more scumbag off the streets or arrested Zimmerman?
When it comes to determining premeditated murder you need hard evidence to convict but as the evidence largely exists in the head of Zimmerman it is unlikely he will admit to it so murder 2 is likely to be the maximum he can reasonably be convicted of. Just because the evidence available is insufficient to gain a conviction doesn't mean the motivation and planning wasn't there.
25 to life is a pretty hefty sentence , murder 1 would only add eventual state sponsored euthanasia assuming you can get the death penalty in florida.
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
Everyone who defends the NRA attacks Martin. EVERY. SINGLE. COMMENT.
The racism isn't fabricated.
[ Similarly, the statement "we don't need you to do that" is a friendly way of saying "don't do it." ]
911 dispatchers are trained to give orders. They are trained to deal with people in various excited emotional states, and their job is to convey instructions as clearly and loudly as is necessary. "Sir, STOP DOING THAT. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? STOP FOLLOWING THE SUSPECT AND WAIT FOR THE ARRIVAL OF THE POLICE".
See how much more effective that is? If you listen to various recordings of 911 calls, you will know that's the language they know how to use and are trained for. This "you don't need to do that" does not convey a directive.
P.S. I'm responding to your comment, not the entire case, by the way.
you liberals get enough airplay here as it is
"Liberals" have a monopoly when it comes to being concerned about an unarmed man being gunned down in the street? Really?!
Mod parent up. There is no way this doesn't come out hung jury.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This.
With all the news coming out apologizing for lying about what happened, editing the 911 call to make Zimmerman look racist, publishing photos of Trayvon when he was 12 rather than the 6'1 17-yr-old he was, fact that Zimmerman was injured that night and the police believed it was self-defense, witnesses saying Trayvon was beating Zimmerman, I really don't think they'll be able to find 12 people to agree Zimmerman's guilty, someone is always going to believe Zimmerman was defending himself.
Unless they have a clear video showing Zimmerman executing Trayvon while he was eating skittles, it's pretty clear they're doing this just to satisfy public outcry.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
You can't just go around having brawls then wimp out and shoot somebody. Even clear self defense should require mandatory charges so a proper complete investigation is performed. Maybe an "innocent" person spends some money, suffers a little, or ends up in jail a few years. That is a small price to pay for one's whole life... assuming the threat was actually real.
Just about everybody would trade a trial and some possible jail time against death. Nobody should be able to leave a murder scene, go home, clean up, add some bruises, leave the country, etc.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Are you on crack?
An armed man goes looking for trouble in his neighbourhood streets, what was going to happen once he found it?
If he had no intent on killing someone then why carry the gun in the first place?
This is yet another huge presumption on your part. I carry a gun every day. I'm damned sure not "looking for trouble". On what basis do you say he was automatically "looking for trouble"? Was it his job to patrol the neighborhood? Probably not. Was it wrong of him to do so? Also, probably not. Looking out for your neighbors isn't inherently evil or bad nor is it "looking for trouble". We don't have any evidence saying he was intending to do anything else. Do you have evidence that says otherwise?
He was armed and dangerous and looking for trouble, the facts speak for themselves he killed the boy!
This is the same presumption as above. Do you have any evidence that he was dangerous as opposed to merely armed? The facts we know are these:
Those are the known facts. Practically everything else is presumption or assumption on our parts. You seem intent on presuming evil intent where there is little to no evidence to support that at the moment. Why is that?
Even if he had been found holding the boy at gunpoint would the Police have said good job Zimmerman thats one more scumbag off the streets or arrested Zimmerman?
Presuming there really was a reason to hold Martin at gun point that would have been vastly preferred by everyone. If it turned out there was no reason to do so, Zimmerman would have been arrested for assault with a deadly weapon.
When it comes to determining premeditated murder you need hard evidence to convict but as the evidence largely exists in the head of Zimmerman it is unlikely he will admit to it so murder 2 is likely to be the maximum he can reasonably be convicted of. Just because the evidence available is insufficient to gain a conviction doesn't mean the motivation and planning wasn't there.
25 to life is a pretty hefty sentence , murder 1 would only add eventual state sponsored euthanasia assuming you can get the death penalty in florida.
Yeah, just because there is no evidence of motivation and planning lets just assume that's what happened and "convict" based on that. Who needs little things like evidence and logic before forming opinions and deciding guilt, right?
I was raised on the command line, bitch
"Nemo me impune lacesset"
News
Nerds
Tech
If the story has 2 out of the 3, I think it is appropriate to post here.
This only has one, and by god I heard this news last night on the radio, on the television, AND on the big media websites I peruse.
I fie upon you, slashdot mods. FIE!!!
....mob rule and public outcry supersede the rule of law. Furthermore this is proof that the public at large is too stupid to manage themselves. This will be a media-circus witch-hunt. I really don't want to live on this planet anymore.
There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
You're the one accusing them of a hate crime. That puts the burden of proof on you.
The laws as written certainly are not racist unless unevenly applied in a racist way.
....though mostly focused on pre-parenting activities. A sprinkle of real life is necessary to remind us we are human. I truly struggle having to debug people's statements and always asking for specifics, details. It annoys me that i annoy normal ppl coz of my binary disposition. anyway.... back to discussing how cumulative dung-beetle activity saved earth
Exactly my point. These laws are proved to have been applied unevenly in a racist way, so they are certainly racist. I'm not sure where we disagree.
You are welcome on my lawn.
That's your opinion; a jury thought differently. And it is your opinion too that the jury verdict would have been different if the defendant had been white.
That's your opinion, not fact. There is little evidence for actual racism in the justice system. It probably does occur to some degree, but it pales in comparison to the much higher actual crime rates among black males. Until the actual crime rate among black males comes down to average levels, it's nearly impossible statistically to even identify racism in the justice system.
But even if you are right and McNeil was convicted unjustly, what bearing does that have on Zimmerman? If black males suffer false convictions and harsh sentences due to racism, the solution would be to address that problem, not to subject more people to the same injustices.
After just being there in that crowd, I'd say that if Zimmerman isn't convicted, there's going to be some kind major race riot. Probably one to put the King riots to shame. I imagine that the black community is already boiling over. You know theyve been the hardest hit with economic problems and now this. I think it could get pretty ugly. Especially in cities with larger black populations....probably not Seattle. I think Zimmerman is in big trouble either way. If he does get off, I wouldn't want to go around without armed guards. Ironic...he was trying to protect himself and the neighborhood, but in doing so, he probably made himself and his neighborhood a hundred times less safe. He's got a lot in common with Bush. Itchy trigger finger and no brain for judgment.
These "Stand Your Ground" Laws that we have thanks to ALEC and the NRA are meant only to protect white people who shoot blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, etc.
Have a look at how "Stand Your Ground" is applied when it's the other way around.
Funny, I didn't hear anything from the NRA and the right-wing media in that Georgia case. But I did hear a right-wing talker today talking about how the increasing American sense that race relations are deteriorating is Barack Obama's fault.
If race relations have any relation to Obama it is only from the perspective of false hope, which is what Obama is all about. When blacks thought one of their own was being elected, they forgot to actually find out how the world works. Obama is not in their social class. It has little to do with the color of their skin. It has everything to do with their pocketbooks. They didn't elect one of their own, they elected another millionaire, who's looking out for the members of his own class and the people who finance his election. Obama isn't racist or anti black or pro white or anything to do with race. He's rich and he's a corporatist. Period. So the false hope that an elected black man might make things better for them is just an ignorant thought and probably a huge disappointment.
"See, capitalism is not fundamentally racist -- it can exploit racism for its purposes, but racism isn't built into it. Capitalism basically wants people to be interchangable cogs, and differences among them, such as on the basis of race, usually are not functional. I mean, they may be functional for a period, like if you want a super exploited workforce or something, but those situations are kind of anomalous. Over the long term, you can expect capitalism to be anti-racist -- just because its anti-human. And race is in fact a human characterstic -- there's no reason why it should be a negative characteristic, but it is a human characteristic. So therefore identifications based on race interfere with the basic ideal that people should be available just as consumers and producers, interchangable cogs who will purchase all the junk that's produced -- that's their ultimate function, and any other properties they might have are kind of irrelevent, and usually a nuisance."
You believe the intent of the law was that it be applied in a racist way. I see no evidence for that. I maintain that the law has been abused in a racist way.
The difference is in how far up the chain the racism goes. It also suggests a different corrective action.
Specifically, according to my theory, the racists are in the DAs office and the police dept, and must be weeded out there. Rescind stand your ground and they'll just abuse some other law (possibly including wrongfully prosecuting a minority who dares to defend himself against a racist attacker).
Usually, someone doesn't post something that insanely false until they've had time to be around here more than a couple of days.
Our justice system is so racist, that the biggest variable in the length of jail time a defendant gets is the color of his skin, followed only by the color of his victim's skin.
Next to South Africa, I'm not sure there is any developed country with a justice system as racist as the US. In fact, I would not be surprised to learn that South Africa is measurably less racist when it comes to its justice system than the US.
The US was born as a slave state, and the stain will be with us, if not forever, than for a lot longer than it should. I doubt very much that anyone reading this will live to see the US have anything like equality when it comes to race. And considering by all recent studies, the racial divides in the US are getting worse, not better, I'm not sure any of our kids will live to see it either.
Now, I understand that you joined Slashdot to express your sympathy and approval for George Zimmerman. Such astroturf trolling is not unknown. But if you're going to engage in such activities, you might want to learn some comments section manners, like at least pretending to be part of a community before you start beating a drum for your agenda.
You will find that Slashdot users are a pretty tolerant bunch. There are opinions expressed here that are sometimes pretty outside the mainstream, and sometimes expressed in less than civil terms. But political astroturf trolling, especially done as in-artfully as you've done it, is about as welcome as a fart in church.
You are welcome on my lawn.
That is a blatant misuse of statistics. Just because race is "the biggest variable" doesn't mean that there is racism. Race is simply correlated with a large number of other factors (family structure, income, education, higher rates of recidivism, etc.). Once you take all those other factors into account, most of the differences go away.
The US inherited slavery from European colonial powers. The same powers exterminated the American Indians. The founding of the US was part of the solution. European powers still went on enslaving and committing genocide for centuries, and even today, European nations remain racially and religiously intolerant. The "stain" you speak about is a European stain, not an American stain.
Are you joking? I've been a Slashdot user since long before the Zimmerman case.
Political astroturf trolling? You seriously want to assert that anybody is paying me for taking such a politically unpopular position? Here are some other positions I take: I don't think we should take action on global warming, I don't particularly like Obama's health care plan, and I do believe in a strict separation of church and state. I'm a libertarian. You're obviously some kind of progressive. And like progressives everywhere, since the rational and scientific basis of your ideology falls apart under scrutiny, you exhaust yourself in ad hominems and innuendo.
Trouble is that your irrational and ideologically driven policies end up hurting people. You can accuse the US and its justice system of "racism" as much as you want, it's not going to help African Americans because that's not their problem. Furthermore, if you seriously think that Europe does any better in any of these areas, I suggest you live there for a while as a minority; I have, and I can tell you first hand, whatever may be wrong in the US, it is much worse in Europe.
The evidence that you seem to ignore that he is dangerous is the dead boy. He didn't just carry a gun he used it. Or are you claiming that is in dispute.
"The Orange County Clerk of Courts website shows a man named George Zimmerman, 28, was charged in July 2005 with resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer. The charges appear to have been dropped." I guess that wasn't enough to refuse Zimmerman a gun permit.
Zimmerman could have held the boy at gun point, If someone was pointing a gun at you and you were unarmed, would you resist. I doubt it since you appear to be aware of the damage a bullet can do.
Zimmerman isn't convicted yet however the decision on what to charge him with has been made and presumable that decision is based on supporting Evidence not on a whim.
I started out this conversation by pointing out that it could be the case Zimmerman did want to kill someone and escape the consequences of the law. Where your claiming i am presuming guilt you are presuming innocence. neither conclusion can be reached without examination of the actual evidence.
The 3 statements you made regarding the requirements for murder1 could be met in this case however largely it is a thought crime, without a witness to the killing it is pretty much impossible to prove. Only Zimmerman could say if it was the case or not and he isn't likely to confess.
Zimmerman seems to have seen himself as some kind of vigilante maybe he thought he was Batman or just an arrogant racist with a chip on his shoulder or a wanna be cop. The incident in 2005 realistically would have closed the door to his entry into law enforcement.
Zimmerman had called Police many times before this incident to report incidents of this and that seems to me that you would have to be actively seeking criminal acts in an affluent area to be calling the police so often, How many of these calls actually led to arrests of his suspects we don't know but looking for trouble seems to have been his hobby.
I am sure we can both agree there is a case to answer, and his guilt or innocence will be determined in a court of law.
I am curious
Why do you carry a gun everyday? Are you paid to do so as part of your job? what are you afraid might happen if you didn't carry a gun? Is it an unusual thing to be carrying in your area.
I do know someone who was shot during a robbery over in africa last summer. One of the local gangs thought he was rich and during the robbery he was hit with a hammer and shot. If he had a gun maybe he would have been able to defend himself or perhaps he would have been killed he was out numbered anyway. The bullet wound wasn't as bad as the state of his arm which took the damage that was intended for his head.
I accept that there are area's of the world which are so lawless that a weapon is a necessity is the usa really that bad?
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
You are welcome on my lawn.
The idea that the US revolution was caused by a desire to replace slave trade with Europe is completely untenable. Europe never had any significant slave trade with Africa (otherwise, there would be lots of African blood in Europe today, yet most of Europe is totally white). Europe also didn't need African slaves, since it had its own native system of hereditary human bondage. In fact, many immigrants came to the US fleeing a life of bondage or destitution in Europe.
The reasons and causes of the American revolution are documented in numerous contemporaneous writings, and slavery wasn't a big part of it. Slavery was economically important, and people realized that they couldn't get states together for a revolution and abolish slavery at the same time. But even at the time of the American revolution, a lot of people realized that slavery was morally wrong and that it would eventually have to be abolished.
Oh, sure, they had "abolished slavery" in Europe, but that was a meaningless gesture. Britain and France were enslaving entire nations as "colonies" well into the 20th century. Germany was killing Jews by the millions. Japan was mass murdering Chinese and viciously xenophobic. Debt bondage still existed in many European nations through much of the 19th century. And European nations maintained systems of hereditary nobility and even indentured servitude well into the 19th century. That is what the nations you call "civilized" were doing.
If you look at the statistics, the primary problems of the African American community are broken families (two thirds of black kids grow up in single parent homes), high crime rates (several times as high as among whites and other minorities), poverty, and low levels of education. None of those are caused by contemporary racism (although some are remnants of past discrimination), and the only people able to address these issues at this point are African Americans themselves. Yes, there is still some racism in employment and housing, but not enough to hold anybody back. I guarantee you: if you are an African American and get a college degree in a STEM field, you will do well.
Then you were blind to what was going on around you. European minorities like Turks and Arabs are subject to high levels of job and housing discrimination, high rates of hate crimes, and limits on social mobility. Many racist policies that are illegal in the US are routine in Europe. European nations have explicitly rejected multiculturalism and demand that all minorities fully and completely assimilate into the mainstream culture. And even if you completely assimilate, you will still be subject to racial profiling and prejudice if you look different. And to top it all off, many European nations even refuse to quantify these problems, thinking that it's better to just pretend these problems don't exist.
African Americans tend to have positive experiences in Europe because they aren't a European minority, they are a curiosity and treated as exotic guests. African Americans are particularly welcome by European intellectuals as subjects to demonstrate their moral superiority to the US. That's not a new phenomenon: Nazis and various socialists states basically interacted with African Americans in the same way, while being highly intoleran
The evidence that you seem to ignore that he is dangerous is the dead boy. He didn't just carry a gun he used it. Or are you claiming that is in dispute.
No, I'm not ignoring it. I dispute it is evidence that he is dangerous. There is a difference between a person who is dangerous, a more or less constant quality of the person, and what may be a dangerous act. One doesn't prove the other and as such isn't evidence. Side note, at 17 you're within days of being legally a man and am very far away from being a boy. Words mean something. Constantly calling Martin a boy is only logical if you're attempting to paint a particular picture. A more accurate term would be young man, or teenager (at best).
"The Orange County Clerk of Courts website shows a man named George Zimmerman, 28, was charged in July 2005 with resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer. The charges appear to have been dropped." I guess that wasn't enough to refuse Zimmerman a gun permit.
It is possible you don't follow these types of things closely. As such, you may not realize just how ridiculously easy it is to get charged with that in the US these days. A cop approaches me, doesn't like what I'm doing for whatever reason, attempts to arrest me and I shove him. Bam, resisting arrest with violence and battery. Happens all the time to protestors. That he wasn't convicted and charges were dropped both says a lot and answers your question as to his carry (not a gun permit, we don't have those in the US) permit. Some what unrelated, I get the feeling you're not from the US. Is that the case?
Zimmerman could have held the boy at gun point, If someone was pointing a gun at you and you were unarmed, would you resist. I doubt it since you appear to be aware of the damage a bullet can do.
Well, that depends on what is going on. If a person wasn't doing anything wrong and someone else pulled a gun on them, I would absolutely expect them to resist in some manner or other. As to what Zimmerman should have or could have done, we don't really know as we don't really know the circumstances around the time of the shooting. As I've noted before, we are only speculating. The available facts are pretty thin at this point.
Zimmerman isn't convicted yet however the decision on what to charge him with has been made and presumable that decision is based on supporting Evidence not on a whim.
One would hope. That said, it is entirely possible they charged him whether or not they thought they could get a conviction. Right or wrong, absent clear evidence that a conviction was impossible I don't think they had a practical choice the minute this became a (inter)national news story.
I started out this conversation by pointing out that it could be the case Zimmerman did want to kill someone and escape the consequences of the law. Where your claiming i am presuming guilt you are presuming innocence. neither conclusion can be reached without examination of the actual evidence.
Quite right. However, it is more accurate to say that I'm presuming innocence until proven guilty combined with the fact that I have a hard time believing someone would come up with such a convoluted plan to commit such a grievous act. Of course, there's a first time for anything, no?
The 3 statements you made regarding the requirements for murder1 could be met in this case however largely it is a thought crime, without a witness to the killing it is pretty much impossible to prove. Only Zimmerman could say if it was the case or not and he isn't likely to confess.
It could only be met if we presume your original supposition is correct. Either way, you're right in that it cannot be proven either way without a witness or a very unlikely confession. Thus, all we can do is theorize.
Zimmerman seems to have seen himself as some kind o
I was raised on the command line, bitch
"Nemo me impune lacesset"
Why is this even national news?
This is a local community issue.
We have many more things to be worried about than who Zimmerman is, what he is or who he is or what he is doing.
On a national scope this is not appropriate consdering we are on the verge of WWIII, our currency is being destroyed by our fascist/corporatized government and millions of people are on food stamps.
This has to be misdirection to keep our minds on fighting each other rather than worrying about the billions of dollars this fascist government and its minions like Corzine are stealing from the American citizenry on a daily basis.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
Yeah, /. can be good for discussing tech angles of general stories
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
Here, 1st Amendment (particularly speech/press) would be a problem with that - I understand other countries (such as Canada) have reasonable exemptions like this.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.