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MATE Desktop 1.2 Released
An anonymous reader writes "For those of you who still feel GNOME 2 is the best desktop environment, but don't want stick to old distros, MATE is a fork of GNOME 2, with all the names changed to avoid clashes with GNOME 3. Version 1.2 brings fixes, but also new features such as undo/redo in the file manager."
This release features better freedesktop standards integration, adds a few missing utilities, and merges new features into the file manager. The project has a new wiki; the roadmap has a few details on future goals, including porting things to Gtk 3 and using bits and pieces of modern GNOME 3 infrastructure where appropriate.
How is this fragmentation? It's just more choice. Gnome2 is dead as far as gnome.org is concerned. Don't like it? Don't use it.
Shut up.
Without MATE, Linux Mint 12 wouldn't even be an option for me (I'd stick with 11).
sig: sauer
This approach is doomed to failure. The better approach is Mint's Cinnamon project. There they maintain a gnome2 like desktop environment, but it rests on gnome3. There are ppa's (https://launchpad.net/~merlwiz79/+archive/cinnamon-ppa) that let you install it into official Ubuntu distros, so no need to install a full-on mint distro. It would be even better if canonical moved these packages into universe or something.
Fragmentation is not a bad thing. Think of it as natural selection in the open source software world. This is the mutation that may result in a new or different product.
One man's "more choice" is another man's "fragmentation".
This is what I love about open source: Don't like it ? Change it!
is this fragmentation or diversity? we talk about how having diversity is a good thing in meatspace why is it supposedly bad in computing?
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
Not choices! I hate when I have the ability to replace something I hate with something I love. I'd be much happier with Linux if I was forced to use ${your favorite desktop environment}.
"Version 1.2 brings fixes, but also new features such as undo/redo in the file manager."
Wow, welcome to the 1980s.
Why not improve the gnome classic desktop from gnome 3 instead? This zombie-gnome2 effort seems like a waste of time to me.
I went to the Citroen garage to pick up my roof rack the other day, and do you know what? They had *five* different models of van. Five! Talk about fragmenting the market! Obviously everyone should all just use a Relay dually, because fragmentation is bad.
It gets worse though, because on the way out of there shocked by the fragmentation of five different models, I drove past the Peugeot garage - and *they* had five different models too! Then I drove past the Ford Commercials garage and my Transit-identifying neurons melted.
Fragmentation! Aaaaaargh!
Are you forgetting about Cinnamon? It's basically the same thing but starting from gnome3 and working back to gnome2's appearance. As opposed to mate's starting with gnome2's code base, and working towards gnome3's while keeping the apperance the same.
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/01/25/1459225/cinnamon-gnome-shell-fork-releases-version-12
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Nothing wrong here. If a Mac user doesn't like the way Mac OS X is going, they're choices are to use old and unsupported software or bitch and complain. If a Linux user doesn't like the way things are going they can fork.
I don't run X you insensitive clod!
Not quote.
Windows reigns supreme over Linux because it was deeply entrenched by the time Linus even started. Windows "reigns supreme" because it is effectively this years version of MS-DOS.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
As long as all of the actual applications are using the same underlying libraries, there really is no "fragmentation". These idiots whining about fragmentation are just clueless and superficial. What shell you happen to use is not the sorts of problems that "fragmentation" are supposed to represent.
Besides, if anything is going to cause "fragmentation" it's the new stuff that no one really wants rather than the old stuff that most people are content to keep on using (including Windows users).
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
It's already ported! It's cleaned up code, GObject introspected (hint: you can write extentions for it with same ease as for GNOME Shell), GTK+3/GNOME 3 technologies ready.
But no, should do your own port, because using native GNOME 3 (just without GNOME Shell) is blasphemy.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
because it is effectively this years version of MS-DOS.
Do you mean that as a sort of metaphor, or do you think Windows 7 (and 8, shortly) actually is MS-DOS based?
100% this. Anyone that has to manage the 9-5 machines understands this.
Fragmentation is not a bad thing. Think of it as natural selection in the open source software world. This is the mutation that may result in a new or different product.
Or it will disappear because it can't adapt to his ecosystem....
I remember one of the reasons the GNOME team said they were dropping GNOME 2 in favour of version 3 was because the old code base was too much of a mess to maintain. Now here is a small group of developers who have come along and shown they can not only maintain the code, but improve it. Makes me wonder if the GNOME folks were just looking for an excuse to throw out their own design and start new.
This is EXACTLY why Windows reigns supreme over all the 2^42 versions of Linux. You know exactly what you are getting into.
Yes. You can choose:
XP Home
XP Pro
XP 64
Couple of other varieties of XP
Various server versions of Windows
Six or so varieties of Vista
A dozen or so varieties of Windows 7, 32-bit or 64-bit
And soon, Windows for Tablets on the Desktop
People complaining about Linux 'fragementation' and then using that as an argument for running Windows are highly amusing. I can't even remember all the different versions of Windows you can run with different features and radically different UIs.
True.. and *generally* speaking, flexibility is inversely proportional to simplicity; it's just a matter of which choice one personally values more.
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
So what? If this one dies, that one will hopefully survive.
That was his point, I think.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
One man's "more choice" is an anti-choice idiot's "fragmentation".
FTFY.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Nothing wrong here. If a Mac user doesn't like the way Mac OS X is going, they're choices are to use old and unsupported software or bitch and complain. If a Linux user doesn't like the way things are going they can fork.
Fork off!!
Yeah I'm leaning towards running Cinammon over MATE as my new DE when I upgrade my laptop to 12.04, it seems to have more new features including the super-useful Win7-ish searchable menu.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Yeah, I'm a Linux user and I fork my girlfriend all the time!
Gnome is like a nirvana of choice compared even to Windows, don't paint them with the same brush as the Appletards because they like the keep things simpler than the KDE crowd.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Are you forgetting about Cinnamon? It's basically the same thing but starting from gnome3 and working back to gnome2's appearance.
It's not the appearance that's an issue, but the functionality.
Like working support for multiple buttoned mice, multiple displays and display orders, overlapping windows with focus-follows-mouse and user controlled Z order, multiple sessions of the same programs whether or not the apps themselves provide an "open new instance" functionality, remote X logins, adjustable DPI (for wysiwyg DTP this is a must)...
Most people seem to complain about panel apps, but to me, that's a minor thing compared to how basic functionality has been sacrificed. The fallback mode is nothing like Gnome 2, and changing the looks to get it more like Gnome 2 will accomplish diddley squat.
The first Gnome 3 dev who has guts enough to say "dudes, we fscked up this one, bad" will get my respect.
It isn't bad in computing, those who complain about "fragmentation" are implicitly promoting the One True Way, and therefore, promote curated (walled-garden) computing, whether they realize it or not.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Whaddaya mean I can have a desktop that doesn't look like a mobile phone????
YankDownUnder Veni, Vidi, volo in domum redire
And because Windows just "works well enough" to the average user. If you want to be the market leader, you need to be better than the current leader in all aspects.
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Bullocks, everyone pirates only the latest and greatest version!
One man's "more choice" is an anti-choice idiot's "fragmentation".
FTFY.
People who value trivial choices are the idiots. I'm reminded of Steve Jobs, and his decision to fill his wardrobe with identical blue jeans and black turtlenecks as a way to eliminate such from his head space.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
I've just been fooling around with KDE because I had some problems with my graphics card, and the builtin graphics don't do 3D. That means no compiz, and no window placement.
That means I was being driven nuts manually bringing down browser windows to the bottom half of my screen where I like them.
So I tried KDE. Turns out I like it. And you can basically set it up the way I had Gnome set up:
-Focus follows mouse with delayed raise
-Choice of keyboard shortcuts for keyboard layout change
-You can set desktop switching to have the same shortcut as in Gnome (Ctrl+Alt+arrow)
-You can use the Documents, Music, Pictures, etc. folders in KDE. You just have to set up the shortcuts/bookmarks once.
-Best of all, you can set automatic window placement without compiz (i.e., no need for 3D for something which manifestly doesn't require it)
Still missing:
-The neat world clock/weather applet (anybody know of a good one for KDE?)
-Also keyboard shortcuts seem to double send (i.e., do Ctrl+Tab in Chrome, and it goes two tabs over sometimes, not just one)
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
I'll stick with my enlightenment dr16 desktop, thanks very much.
All of that can be done with XFCE, but without the bugs and sluggishness the gnome developers never cared to fix.
Artix
Your Linux, your init.
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This is a good time to mention another 'Gnome 2' type distro for the interested.
Lubuntu is a Canonical-supported LXDE-based distribution. What do you get? You get the classic 'Gnome 2' aka 'W95' toolbar GUI on the familiar Ubuntu packages.
Lu tends to be overlooked from pigeon-holing as yet another "lightweight" distro for older machines. It does that just fine, but it's a little different from the usual lightweights in that you never get stuck with CLI for configurations, or searching online to figure out the key-click combos to unearth a setting you want. It's /familiar/ for Ubuntu users, and is fully-equipped with dialog boxes. It's probably the least effort for people who don't like Unity/G3, and don't want to learn a new desktop manager. Really, more people need to check this out. The search to replace your old Ubuntu is over once you do.
FYI, if you don't like the default PCMan file manager, just install Nautilus. The sole detail is change the launcher command to "nautilus --no-desktop", so Nautilus doesn't try to be the desktop manager. Then you'll have the familiar Nautilus that still doesn't have Undo in 2012 (facepalm). I recommend Dolphin instead. You probably should have tried that years ago.
How do you fork that... which does not exist?
As of update 4 which is currently the Release Candidate.
http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1967
Perhaps this is true... in a DICTATORSHIP.
Look. The fact is, the whole point is free as in freedom (as well as free as in beer). The public has cried long and loud about the direction GNOME3 has taken. People respond with "don't like it? don't use it!" Well, when someone actually takes them up on it, someone else calls it "fragmentation." Can't win?
Fact is, GNOME is not listening to its users. It's a problem. We know what happened when XFree86 didn't listen... we've gone to X.org and flourished because of it. Now we have people bringing life back to the Gnome2 DE and I expect a lot of user interest will follow... my own as well. (As soon as I find out how easy it is to install and run it under the latest Fedora... right now, I am on CentOS 6.x because Fedora has failed me...) Maybe I can go back with MATE 1.2... CentOS is good but takes a lot of effort to tweak it the way I want it... moreso than Fedora of whatever version CentOS most resembles.
Nothing wrong here. If a Mac user doesn't like the way Mac OS X is going, they're choices are to use old and unsupported software or bitch and complain. If a Linux user doesn't like the way things are going they can fork.
I think you are confusing users with developers and that is part of the problem with linux in general. An end "user" cannot fork a damn thing because they don't know how to program.
If a developer on OS X does not like something, they can write their own extensions/plugins or applications that publish a "service" that can be used in other programs via the services menu in any cocoa application. You can replace the "finder" with a third party replacement like Pathfinder or write one yourself and license it however you wish. Xcode is available as a free download.
The problem with linux is that there is no strong underlying framework for UI and window management other than X which is rather primitive by modern standard so you end up with multiple competing window managers with their own frameworks, APIs and controls.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Yeah, I'm a Linux user and I fork my girlfriend all the time!
Your hand does not count as a girlfriend.
Now we have MATE from GNOME v2 as a form of dissatisfaction of v3.
We already had Trinity forked from KDE v3.5.
Then there's Razor-Qt as "something almost completely new".
And the pletora of "alternative" desktops we all love: XFCE, LXDE, etc.etc.
Is it actually a problem of fragmentation, or is it that some projects after a few years (and some amounts of donated money) just go into technology decline?
I personally tend towards the second option.
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
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you are talking out of your ass. in the windows world, you need help you get Habib in south asia reading to you from a script. you get apps that won't run in win 7 enterprise but are fine in other version of windows 7. you get apps that can't run on 64 bit. you get apps that security patches break. and yes you still get the blue screen of death.
Still, they have binary compatibility.
I love mInt for desktop and I love Debian for servers, but I've found that since mint team uses unstable for basing their Mint-Debian it's too hard to keep up with broken things and updates that break things.
The first Gnome 3 dev who has guts enough to say "dudes, we fscked up this one, bad" will get my respect.
He would be a hero. A voice of reason. A voice of intelligence. A voice of sanity.
The sad thing is, he would be shunned and likely ejected. The Gnome usability experts have all, already told the Gnome 3 developers they are fucking up very badly. The gnome 3 developers told them they didn't have the intelligence to understand their visionary thinking. In other words, according to the gnome 3 developers, if you disagree with the gnome 3 developers, you are an idiot. This is not hyperbole. This is straight from the mailing list. Its disgusting.
At this point in time, either you've drank the koolaid and have long since turned off your brain, growing like a mushroom, or left gnome 3 development. Otherwise, according to the gnome 3 developers, you're an idiot and not likely unqualified to contribute to the project.
It isn't going to happy because it already happen, in mass, and the gnome 3 developers labeled them idiots.
Full disclosure: I manage the project I am about to propose your use of. CentOS and its upstream RHEL6 is great on the desktop and I too feel that going from Fedora to RHEL there are just way too many things I miss. I also hated everything Gnome was doing with gnome-shell and gtk3. So I made a fork of RHEL6 that had everything I needed (an OpenVZ compatible kernel), dahdi packages via rpm, proprietary Nvidia packages and something that offered the functionality of EPEL/RPMForge/ELRepo/rpmfusion without them breaking each other through dependencies. We use it as the foundation of our cloud voip platform on our servers but also use it on our workstations so we can easily build and deploy virtual containers. It's called CCT Enterprise Linux (http://www.classiccitytelco.com/?page_id=488) and has most packages from EPEL, gstreamer*ugly functionality, and nvidia drivers for CUDA developers or those that just want functional OpenGL support. It sounds like we ran into the same problems, so hopefully the solution I spent some time on putting together might help you out. If you install it and wonder where all the extra packages are, remember to enable cct-extras and cct-nonfree. That's where all of the non-RHEL packages live. Hope that helps you out, but if you prefer Fedora and Mate, I completely understand.
I concur. Gnome 3 project should just give up.
For me, it IS a matter of appearance!
1) If I wanted a fscking smartphone UI, I'd have bought a fscking smartphone.
2) Gnome3 (or whatever those pedantic sh!ts want to call it) now requires a 3D graphics adapter with a speed that my machines don't have, and I'm not willing to spend extra money to get. Even in basic mode, G3 won't install.
3) Even if my graphics could take the hit, the enviornment now requires that my machines have at least 768M-1GB of RAM, which many of them are incapable of handling, due to the fact they can only see 512MB max.
So, all of these issues have everything to do with appearance, as G2 and many other DEs don't require these things. It used to be that Linux was the go-to for older machines, but thanks to developers like Gnome and KDE fscking their user base, I'm seriously thinking of switching back to Win98SE.
Kudos to MATE and Cinnamon!
Clarification: Cinnamon isn't "the fallback mode," by which I think you mean the thing variously referred to as "GNOME Fallback" or "Gnome Classic"
(I can't keep the terminology straight either, maybe this will help: http://askubuntu.com/questions/83351/which-is-correct-gnome-classic-or-gnome-fallback ).
Cinnamon is like the fallback mode in that it builds on Gnome 3 while attempting to feel familiar to Gnome 2 users. But it's a different codebase worked on by different people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon_%28user_interface%29)
You are correct that both Cinnamon and "fallback" still lack quite a bit of Gnome 2's functionality. I'm keeping a hopeful eye on Cinnamon, but still running Gnome 2 indefinitely.
Lubuntu is where I'm headed.
Kudos to MATE and Cinnamon!
Mate, yes. Cinnamon, no - that's a Gnome 2 user-experience-compatibility layer on top of Gnome 3, which won't make it any more CPU/GPU/memory friendly - rather the opposite.
Mate, on the other hand, is Gnome 2.
"It's the same reason why big software re-writes never work the old software is old and convoluted because it's had to solve problems you'd never think of the first time around."
Gnome 2 is successful and pleasantly usable thanks to years of input and refinement as a GUI.
A huge effort was put into it to understand what its intended use was and how to make something people wanted.
They should not have replaced Gnome 2 with Gnome 3, it should have been a whole new project. Gnome 3 has nothing to do with the original objective that was Gnome 2.
Steve Jobs probably liked blue jeans and black turtlenecks, and made that choice out of thousands of options. He did not go out to make it the only option for everyone. See that essential difference? In fact, it's pretty much similar to those who want to stick with MATE instead of choosing between following Gnome's antics or switching to another desktop.
So yeah, using MATE fragments Linux like black turtlenecks fragment fashion, and it takes away annoying and trivial choices like wearing the same takes away choices. What were you trying to say again?
I'm not a developer either. But I'm glad that those who have coding skills can fork software. If a piece of software no longer does what I want it to, I just drop it and go on to the next piece of software.
Steve Jobs probably liked blue jeans and black turtlenecks, and made that choice out of thousands of options. He did not go out to make it the only option for everyone. See that essential difference? In fact, it's pretty much similar to those who want to stick with MATE instead of choosing between following Gnome's antics or switching to another desktop.
So yeah, using MATE fragments Linux like black turtlenecks fragment fashion, and it takes away annoying and trivial choices like wearing the same takes away choices. What were you trying to say again?
To you, it's an essential difference. To Steve, whos head was full of larger concerns for world domination, it probably wasn't. If he had a wardrobe full of black work pants and blue zip up sweaters, it probably wouldn't have made much difference to him. It would have been beneath him to dwell on such trivialities.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Steve would have walked through a fire to get jeans. I doubt it.
I do know it's beneath me to dwell on such things. Being confronted with trivial choices stresses me out and makes me UNHAPPY. One of the things I miss about having a woman around the house is letting her amuse herself with that crap so I don't have to.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Maybe I'm some sort of edge case who just happens to have the same preferences as the developers, but I like Gnome Shell. It's minimalistic, it's fast, it does things exactly like I want them. With the theming plugin it even looks less gauche; personally I prefer a uniform dark grey on black as far as UI widgets go. I've used most every window manager and desktop environment under the sun, so it's not like I'm talking out of my ass here.
Protip: you can set a "spawn terminal" keyboard shortcut under the keyboard menu, along with shortcuts for navigating the workspaces.
Emotions! In your brain!
"Simplicity" is just a matter of someone with a big marketing budget making a good selection of software and distributing it.
Flexibility only inteferes because it gives more chances for getting good software at the cost of more labor selecting it.
Rethinking email
Maybe someone linked to this already, didn't check all the posts: the official extension repository
The extensions are implemented in JavaScript. You can get a debug console by typing "lg" in the alt+f2 run prompt. The extensions already in the repo includes ones that revert the UI to be more like Gnome 2, as well as at least one system monitor plugin of the type people seem to be pining for. I haven't tried hacking around with this and I don't know how good the API documentation is but people do seem to get stuff done with it.
Emotions! In your brain!
All the various Windows versions are just tweaks of the same base system. In other words, the same exact system except with some defaults preferences changed.
On Linux it would be the about the equivalent of changing desktop themes.
Actually they use "testing" not "unstable"
Let me explain the entrenchment metaphor as I understand it: Prior to Windows 9x, MS-DOS was "the operating system you get with a name brand PC" and "the operating system with which all applications and peripherals are expected to be compatible". Windows has since taken that role.
I hate when I have the ability to replace something I hate with something I love.
I see your sarcasm. The problem comes when the new hotness draws resources away from keeping one's favorite desktop environment patched with security updates and compatibility with new applications and hardware support frameworks.
Fragmentation is not a bad thing. Think of it as natural selection in the open source software world. This is the mutation that may result in a new or different product.
My first reaction to the parent post was identical: diversity must be good. However, thinking about your evolution analogy I realized: if you really want to wait for (tens of) thousands of years for a piece of software to evolve from "ape" to "human", than simply waiting for the the natural selection to happen is the right thing to and eventually it will bring us brilliant software. However, this approach also fragments the community and diverts efforts from forward-thinking innovation to saving some dying technologies. There is nothing wrong with supporting projects that choose to stick to the good old ways -- by the end only the fittest will survive anyway (and that's called conservativism). But let's be honest, by building on Gnome 2, MATE is investing effort in taking steps backwards. Now I'm not saying that what they do is worthless (in fact I hate the guts of Gnome 3 and Unity), but I would still argue that just because a considerable part of the community doesn't like the new direction, development effort should not be invested into paving a road that is a dead end.
That's why on a second thought, I think it might be better for the community that the effort goes into e.g. Cinnamon, or why not a Unity fork.
One more thing: the GNU Linux ecosystem's great diversity is often mentioned as a great advantage. What leads to this diversity is the very thing we are talking about, fragmentation. A high level of fragmentation results in a bazillion choices and greater choice is for the greater good, most would think. However, psychology research suggests that choice overload can in fact be highly detrimental:
"The more options there are, the easier it is to regret anything at all that is disappointing about the option that you chose." (Barry Schwartz)
If you fancy taking a dive into this topic check out Schwartz's TED talk (http://www.ted.com/speakers/barry_schwartz.html) or his book "The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less".
All the mess with Gnome3 is in some sense good, because I still use Fedora 14 (Gnome2) and have no plans to upgrade. I remember, all these years since RedHat1 until Fedora14 there were frequent (2 times/yr) upgrades, while each version seemed better than previous. Now, finally, versions after 14 are crap and those extra-hours which I spended for upgrading in past are available for cultural activities.
The reality is that Windows does not work well enough for the average user. The average user does not even realize they have a choice so they stick with Windows and get shafted continuously on performance, productivity, and cost. Perhaps just because they are too lazy to learn or try anything new.
If you think more choice is always better than less, then you've obviously never looked at it from the perspective of a developer. Fragmentation is exactly the reason I hope I never have to develop desktop software for Linux. Why would you wish such hell on developers for your platform?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
http://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=9
Sorry, reality says something else. Only unawareness of alternatives can not explain it.
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
so the average user is dumber and less discerning than a sack of shit. thank you for the stats.
Really? There are a few frameworks that work across pretty much all desktops...
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
It's not the appearance that's an issue, but the functionality.
Say what you will about these folks, but putting Undo/Redo in a file manager is so frakkin clever.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
The real question seems simple enough to me: Qt or GTK+?
If you want to develop something more KDE-like, the answer is simple: choose Qt. If you want to develop something that will work well in GNOME, Xfce and others, choose GTK+. Really, it's not rocket science. You can run Qt programs in GNOME and Xfce, and you can just as easily run GTK+ programs in KDE.
Of course, if you have special needs, like you want to develop something with as little bloat as possible (ie. for running in lightweight window managers instead of more complex desktop environments and with less RAM), then you could always choose something else.
The Undo/Redo file manager functionality was backported from GNOME 3. Good for them for merging new features from GNOME 3, but it's not like they developed the feature.
correct, but the problems are the same.
You can run Qt programs in GNOME and Xfce, and you can just as easily run GTK+ programs in KDE.
I was recently surprised how well this actually works. The widgets are quite nicely adjusted to match the look of the DE in use.
This is pretty much 2 extremes - either offer only 1 choice, of offer a gazillion. I like the idea about freedom and all that, but let's look at what we have in the choices category:
Now, multiply some of the above numbers, and the configurations one will get will be breathtaking. And I was just considering Linux here - didn't even touch the BSDs.
In Windows, I think the most sensible approach - hope that ReactOS does this - would be to have something called a Desktop theme, or something along those lines, which would allow any user of any version of Windows to adapt as his/her UI anything from Windows 98, Windows 2k, XP, Vista/7 or Metro. That way, every user gets what he wants. But in the unixes - be it Linux, BSD or later Minix and Hurd, it should be kept to 3 very flexible DEs - KDE, a GNUSTEP based DE, and GNOME. Within them, they should offer similar themes - KDE could, like it does in its Kontrol Panel, offer the choice of Trinity or KDE4.8 or even earlier versions. GNOME could offer themes like 3, Mate, Cinnamon, XFCE, LXDE and so on. The GNUSTEP DE could offer WindowMaker, AfterStep, LinuxStep or even an Aqua like interface as in OS-X.
In short, choices are good, but if we're going to be flooded w/ them, maintaining it will be a nightmare.
Indeed, I'm a big KDE fan but also a big fan of certain GTK applications that are better than anything QT-based - Firefox, GIMP etc.
If you don't like the way GTK apps look in KDE just go to KDE System Settings->Application Appearance->GTK+ Appearance and choose another widget-style. oxygen-gtk or qtcurve (Ubuntu package kde-style-qtcurve) are particularly good.
Pre-canned Evolution Links for all those Slashdot holy wars.
The Undo/Redo file manager functionality was backported from GNOME 3. Good for them for merging new features from GNOME 3, but it's not like they developed the feature.
I believe you are mistaken. The undo/redo is from a patch to 2.x made long before Gnome 3:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167501
Ah, so updates almost as frequent as Unstable, but without any guarantee of timely patches to security flaws?
There is no good reason to run Testing on a computer that is used for anything other than, you know, testing Debian. There's a hint in the name. It's not called "almost-stable" or "reasonably-stable".
Nop, most of then simply need to be able to run Windows programs (WINE helps, but not much), play games (hit and miss, more miss) and see films (only now my Linux box can play MKVs, and without hardware assist). I know you can do this in Linux, but only with hacks or adjustments that are beyond the knowledge of the average user.
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
What does GTK3 bring to the platform?
Steve Jobs probably liked blue jeans and black turtlenecks, and made that choice out of thousands of options. He did not go out to make it the only option for everyone.
Actually, his "personal uniform" grew out of a failed idea to have employees wear uniforms:
http://9to5mac.com/2011/10/11/steve-jobs-book-excerpt-why-he-wore-the-black-mock-turtleneck-uniform/
"I came back with some samples and told everyone it would great if we would all wear these vests. Oh man, did I get booed off the stage. Everybody hated the idea. [..] He also came to like the idea of having a uniform for himself, both because of its daily convenience (the rationale he claimed) and its ability to convey a signature style."
But,
Base Distros all mostly work to one standard
Desktop Environments are actually similar from the users point of view (as is evidenced by KDE themes for Gnome and vice versa)
Window Managers there are quite a few but most are actually quite similar
Desktop Environments include a Window Manager (so several of these are repeats)
Package managers all work in much the same way now
Browsers are mostly available for Windows as well and are again mostly very similar to each other
Windows: Changes the window Manager, Desktop Environment, Browser, Package manager (what there is of one), etc every new version that comes out ...But calls it the same name, and yes people do complain and are ignored ...
DE's are nice but some people do not use them at all, you don't need one, In Widows it is all or nothing...
Puteulanus fenestra mortis
Well, when someone actually takes them up on it, someone else calls it "fragmentation." Can't win?
It's both fragmentation and choice. Which word you use to describe it depends on what aspects you want to highlight. As is often the case, it's about tradeoffs, and not a black and white issue.
I'm running mate on 2 debian boxes, my desktop and my netbook. the only thing I got really annoyed at was that they renamed everything, gnome-panel is mate-panel, that's understandable, but why rename nautilus caja? other than that my experience is that mate is really a good fork of gnome2.
I'll agree Windows is good for games. I've been playing .mkv files for years though in Linux, yup with proprietary graphics driver
I am running Arch Linux with DWM as the WM.
Wow. I feel left out.
Some apps are WYSIWYG. Some others are WYSIWTF.
We're speaking of Linux - not apple. If you don't value choice, use apple or microsoft. I do value choice - whether it's trivial or not.
I just love it when idiots call other people idiots, especially when referring to an opposing point of view.
BTW: I don't care about my karma either.
I say things which affects my Karma negatively. (and I don't care) For instance; All religion is false.
Yes, you're wrong. Stephe Jobs obsessed over style, and the turtlenecks were of course a conscious choice; part of his 'concerns for world domination', if you will. And even if he didn't care, the difference of making a choice and having other making the choice for you is still an essential difference. So you failed to address my point while covering yourself in bullshit as a defence. The GGP is right: you're an idiot.
With GTK3, a bunch of libraries got removed or added to the core libraries.
GTK/GNOME have a history of keeping stuff similar enough to make porting between revisions practical, but not of source compatibility. Even within GTK2 there are things that were deprecated from one revision to the next.
Which is why you should not rely on GTK (or Qt, for that matter) if you want to maintain something longterm.
MATE sucks. Sorry, wish it didn't. I've tried to genuinely use all of this shit recently and it all sucks. As a developer I simply can't have any bullshit, my time is too valuable and I will not try another distro until I hear of a system that "just works." LAMP servers, yeah, desktop, fucking stick it!
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Ubuntu 10.04 was tight, but 64bit has bugs I cannot live with.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
I am a compiz afficianodo with or under Gnome3. With G3, I wish I could have the ability to put a folder link as a on the favorite bar. I would put 4 different folders onto the favorite bar and then, the new G3 may have great merit.
Click on the favorite link, and that folder should pop open with virtually no delay.
But until that comes, G3 is not going to be a developer's favorite.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
In your above list, yeah, package managers do work the same way, but if you go to a site that distributes Linux software, more often than not, you'll either get something in a .deb or .rpm package, or you'll get tarballs. You're very unlikely to get Pacman, PET, Entropy packages from there. So why not standardize on this? Deb works best, so make it the default. The only other package that deserves a serious look is PC-BSD's PBI, although I've seen OpenBSD claim that Ports is the only secure way of distributing software, under their model.
Okay, go to Wayland
For the rebels that stick to GNOME 2, resisting the Unity and GNOME 3 onslaught, usability is the most precious good. With Ajo Paul's help (http://www.ajopaul.com/), we avoided the trouble thanks to "Ubuntu 11.04 : Uninstall Gnome3 and revert to Gnome 2.x" (http://www.ajopaul.com/2011/04/26/ubuntu-11-04-uninstall-gnome3-and-revert-to-gnome-2-x). But GNOME 2 is unsupported, so we need new winds to propel us without depriving us from our usability. Slashdot reports the release of Cinnamon 1.2 (January 2012) and MATE 1.2 (April 2012), so it's the right moment to check again the available options. That's the origin for "Searching for usability: Seven window managers for Ubuntu" (http://grafotema.com/agullo/articulos/ubuntu/ubuntu.html).
Linux doesn't fragment. Windoze does.
Oh, the beautiful gloss of greality!
Oblig:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/02/02
Desktop environments like Unity & Gnome 3 Shell were designed by misguided lunatics with no concept of what makes a good graphical user interface. They have basically given power users the big finger and are now treating all users like brain dead simpletons. It's bad enough that such moronic interfaces are being offerred by default but now core functionality is being ripped out of Linux distros in a lame effort to make them simpler ? I fail to see the logic here - it seems to me this is all about taking control away from the user and restricting what they can do. Well I for one say F**k off and let me choose my own desktop which works the way I want. Which is why I run Debian.