Slashdot Mirror
Diesel-Like Engine Could Boost Fuel Economy By 50%
bonch writes "Autoparts manufacturer Delphi has developed a diesel-like ignition engine running on gasoline, providing a potential 50 percent efficiency improvement over existing gas-powered engines. Engineers have long sought to run diesel-like engines on gasoline for its higher efficiency and low emissions. Delphi's engine, using a technique called gasoline-direct-injection compression ignition, could rival the performance of hybrid automobiles at a cheaper cost."
WOOHOOO!!!
I don't really care about the karma here, but there's been so much bad news lately this is rather refreshing.
I'll let the critics speak and explain why this is not as good as it sounds, but FTS it's inspiring.
None of us know everything. Therefore we're all naïve.
Seems a bit redundant really, I mean everything is moving over the next two decades to electric anyway.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
From what I understand, the major challenge of combustion without a spark plug for gasoline is preignition. High pressure direct injection allows normal spark-plug motors to run at higher compression ratios with lower chance of knock (preignition), so that was part of it, but I wonder what other fabulous tech was used to get this to be feasibly production ready. Very cool.
People will just drive more to make up for the greater efficiency, and still whine about gas prices...
What keeps diesel engines from becoming a standard in the US? I know regulations nearly disappeared them from the market, but that was for environmental reasons, which are the very reasons why diesel cars are attractive. While in Europe it is not outside the norm, here it seems like you are committing a crime if you run a diesel engine.
Also - since diesel engines are so efficient and all - what stops them from making a hybrid car that benefits from the even greater efficiency of diesel? or this new type of diesel like gas engine for that matter?
Why is this news? Mazda is currently selling this as their "Skyactiv" technology. It is already here, and yes the gas mileage is 'close' to diesel like.
It's the same concept as Mazda's high compression ratio "SkyActiv" gasoline engines. 14:1 outside the us and 12:1 inside the US because they're more like diesels.
Where exactly do the efficiency increases from tradition -> diesel -> Delphi engine come from? The article mentions the ignition process but I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what about this drives a 40-50% improvement. What's so great about diesel, and what makes this engine so much better?
It is cheaper, or the cost is lower. You can not have a cheaper cost! Nor can you have cold temperatures for that matter.
OK, yes, this makes a gasoline engine more efficient by emulating a diesel. Why not just go with diesel, then?
Is there more energy density in gasoline? Is it cheaper to produce? Or is this just about gasoline being more widely available and consumers being more comfortable with it?
I'm asking. Someone here knows, I bet.
Let's face it, economic social justice requires us to enable the billion+ people around the world today who do not have access to personal transportation (like we do) to gain that access. Anything else is unjust. Breakthroughs like this one are a step in that direction.
Seems a bit redundant really, I mean everything is moving over the next two decades to electric anyway.
Until we see new power plants being built I am not so sure we will have a large scale transition to electrically powered vehicles. Various parts of our electrical grid are already pretty stressed out and seeing periodic brown outs and black outs. This could put a damper on large scale adoption of electric vehicles.
At least they won't rival the hybrid version of this engine.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Don't forget that, when considering the extra mining and transportation of rare earth metals required to build a hybrid car, its overall environmental impact might not be any better than a conventional gasoline engine. My choice would be to buy a gasoline powered car with 50% improved efficiency over hybrid--at least until battery technology (and China's environmental policies!) improve.
Sounds somewhat like skyactiv but I think Mazda still uses spark.
The only problem I see with this delphi engine is that it might require high octane gasoline or the lower octane gasoline might ignite too soon and not be so controllable with a lower octane.
I seem to remember hearing about a type of engine from the 1930's that was designed to run this way. The name escapes me, but basically, fuel was sucked in, and then the engine (once at operating temperature) would run off of pre-ignition, which allowed it to run using much more fuel. The problem with the engine back then was that the pre-ignition was somewhat unpredictable which made the engines extremely unreliable at best. Pre-ignition is something that can kill modern engines fairly quickly. It means the fuel is combusting at the "wrong" point in the cycle, which can cause parts to bend or break, and gaskets to be blown out. I'm assuming that they've figured that out with this engine.
Does anyone know the name of the engine that I'm talking about? I'd like to go back and read about it.
hey!
One word - biodiesel
Reminds me of the variable combustion chamber geometry engines that were a fad back in the early '90s. With electronic control it is possible to run a gasoline engine mostly on single event pre-detonation (which used to be called "pinking") which allowing things to get completely out of control and creating the damaging pre-detonation commonly called "knocking".
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
How is this different from homogeneous charge compression ignition ”HCCI"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_charge_compression_ignition
Compression ignition of gasoline is not, in an of itself, a new technology.
that's bullshit.
diesel in canada is MUCH cheaper than gas is.
even when the price per litre is higher, it's still cheaper! hey, you can't do math, please go back to school.
look, a tank of gas gets me 300km, but a tank of diesel gets me $1200 km, that's a 4x increase,
for the SAME AMOUNT OF FUEL.
ok, so diesel costs me $0.05 per litre or even $0.10 more, whoopee shit
for 50 litres that's only $5 more a tank, but I'm still going FOUR TIMES FARTHER than your gas guzzler at your best!
holy shit batman, learn some basic math
Gasoline. Because we still have glaciers.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Hybrid will use this as well.
It's good thing, hope it pans out.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Imagine a hybrid diesel-like OPOC engine!
(T>t && O(n)--) == sqrt(666)
It's still burns gasoline.
The advantage of electric is that you have the option of generating your electricity using the cheapest, best, most efficient means possible.
Of course, the disadvantage of electric is that we haven't been making electric cars for 100 years, we've been making gas ones. So the gas ones will be simpler, cheaper, and likely more reliable.
A compression-ignition (aka "diesel") piston engine makes nasty emissions. The "cleaner" the fuel you burn in it, the easier to meet emissions regulations. Gasoline will burn cleaner in such an engine, but will require different materials and engineering design to withstand the much more sharply spiking, and higher cylinder pressures that gasoline makes when it detonates inside a piston engine's cylinder. A normal gasoline engine that detonates, will self-destroy its internal parts very rapidly, so such an engine must be built a lot tougher than a normal diesel engine that runs on diesel oil fuel.
There have been at least a dozen articles posted about new revolutionary engines in the last five years promising 40, 50 or better miles per gallon of gas. Has a single one gone into production, I think the answer is no. So either they're vapor or those conspiracy theorists are right and big oil is in one way or making sure they never get to market.
There was a news article about five or six years ago about some guy who invented a new revolutionary car transmission that was promised improved gas mileage but I haven't read anything about it since so what happened to it?
require a new factory? I don't foresee it going into mass production unless existing factories can easily retool back and forth between these engines and standard engines.
No, I didn't RTFA yet.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
Didn't someone release a direct injected gasser like 20 years ago??? And for the love of god, why are we still using gasoline and not Diesel like the rest of the world for our commuter cars?
Yet another improvement on an outdated concept. The owners of cars with this type of engine will still be stuck in a the cycle of ever increasing gas prices. These days the only cars that impress me are the ones that offer an affordable escape out of this trap, even if the range is somewhat limited.
I've seen people use the term "This." just as you used it here.
I am not sure what "this" means.
Is this some kind of new shortcut phrasing? What does it mean?
I am a native English speaker (but an old person now and trying to keep up to date).
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
This is nothing new really. They had similar technology back in the 70's but it was never pursued much because people preferred driving BIG GAS HOGS. 1975 Honda Civic had a similar type of technology - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CVCC. I owned one of these cars. It was small, an automatic without the D (drive), just speeds 1 and 2. Wish I still had the car today.
-- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
It means "I approve of the above message which neatly encapsulates most of my feelings on the matter".
I've seen people use the term "This." just as you used it here.
I am not sure what "this" means.
Is this some kind of new shortcut phrasing? What does it mean?
I am a native English speaker (but an old person now and trying to keep up to date).
This. You kids stop with your weird and no-doubt-sexually-charged slang, and GTFO my lawn!
It means "I agree with this" or "this is true", or some variation on that theme. Referring specifically to the parent post.
The more you know.
it means you agree with the original poster. On a related note, you're a retard.
Or we could just go back to using alcohol as a fuel and stop relying on foreign oil altogether. And don't even give me that "It costs more to produce ethanol and it'll ruin our food supply" garbage.
Better late than never, I suppose. Of course, it's probably been on the design boards, and possible, for 105 of those years.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
every selfish ****** ****** who buys a diesel car should be shot.
Diesel exhaust contains the most carcinogenic compounds known to man and despite supposed soot traps the particulate pollution they produce is appalling.
Yes they produce less carbon dioxide per mile but I'd much rather live and deal with that, which is in no way directly toxic (handy given that it's a product of respiration), than the crap that comes out of a diesel engine.
As for the LeMans endurance racing argument for the performance of diesel engines; the rules are entirely weighted in their favour - they are allowed larger engine capacities and larger fuel tanks, and if petrol engines use turbo chargers their compression ratio is severely restricted.
But for these constraints the performance advantage enjoyed by petrol engines would be ridiculous.
Give me petrol, electric, LPG, hydrogen, methanol, anything but diesel.
Uhm.. Diesel and low emission? don't know in what world you are living, but diesel is much MUCH filthier as regular gasoline is. There is a reason why it has a seperate carbonfilter these days (well at least in my country, as it's required by law now for newer cars).. But this is good news, hopefully it finds it's way into cars soon otherwise it's useless as we're switching to electric soon anyway (which is more necessary as switching to more efficient gasoline engines as oil is becoming more expensive and we're running out of it, and oil is also needed for other products other than petrol)..
Direct-injection gasoline engines have been around for a while. From TFA, it sounds like the key to this one is the timing and number of injections used to combat detonation with the high compression ratio.
Still it is somewhat puzzling. Gasoline engines meter air intake so that air:fuel ratio stays roughly constant to control emissions. Diesel engines basically draw in the maximum amount of air all the time because it is needed to create the heat for compression ignition. I`m not sure which way the engine in TFA works. If it is like a normal gasoline engine then won`t it need a spark plug to ignite the fuel at low loads (and possibly to start burning early enough to run at higher engine speeds)? Or if it is like a Diesel then won`t it be pumping out a bunch of NOx from the lean air:fuel mixture?
it were banana peels and stale beer.
I'll ask the obvious question "Wouldn't it be simpler to just use diesel engines powered by diesel fuel instead of trying to make diesel engines powered by gasoline?"
Basically it indicates agreement. Something like "This (is the correct understanding)."
Direct injection gasoline will be news when you can go to a dealership and buy one. I may wait in line for that, unless of course they come out with Mr. Fusion first or a 500 mile range plugin. On an aside. I recently learned that while it is commonly thought that diesels have better efficiency due to some thermodynamic property, it has more to do with the lack of a throttle, ie anything but wide open throttle causes big losses. Diesels regulate engine speed with amount of fuel injected, no throttle related losses.
Word.
<xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
Oh, I don't know. That's not what it means in JavaScript.
http://www.rexresearch.com/vaux/vaux.htm
This engine uses a scotch yoke mechanism to take capture the energy of gasoline in an engine that is intentionally detonating. I toured Denner's lab back in the 90's.
Organization: alphabetical, sometimes numerical or messy
Actually Diesel is denser than gasoline so a gallon of Diesel contains more hydrocarbon molecules and more available energy than a gallon of gasoline. I think that you will find that the tax is almost exactly the same per joule of energy.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
One major advantage of the gasoline engine is that the compression ratio can be reduced for starting so that less power is used by the stop start cycle. You can't do that with Diesels, so a much heavier starter motor is needed. The Prius uses the electric drive motor to start the gasoline engine, too, so that it does not need a conventional starter motor at all (unlike a stop/start Diesel).
It's clever optimisation rather than revolutionary technology.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
The detonation is bad because of the rate of pressure rise, which causes shock loading which temporarily destroys oil films, causing rapid wear. The object is to design an engine with a controlled burn by careful design of the swirl, fuel stratification, and combustion chamber shape. I've had this argument on Slashdot before and someone always cites some Wikipedia article which says the spark plug causes an explosion but it should not; it should cause a controlled burn with a moderate rate of flame propagation so that the bulk of the pressure rise occurs as the combustion space starts to expand. Doing this well results in a long lived, quiet engine.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Hybrids are going to have an advantage in stop-and-go traffic, due to the regenerative braking and lower speeds.
The TDI is going to have an advantage in long distance driving, even with the same engine, as it doesn't have the weight of two power systems.
So, if you're going to be doing 90% of your traffic as highway traffic, and you time your trips to avoid congestion, the hybrid will *never* be as efficient as a lighter small engine car.
(I don't own a hybrid, but I was on the GW Solar Car Team, when it placed first in the 1996 World Solar-Car Rallye ... and yes, we were in the 'junior' class, but came out ahead of all vehicles in the higher classes)
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
.....in a Beowulf cluster...
Errr..... They have won it in previous years with a Diesel powered car.
that produces more than 130BHP and had the possibility of 200BHP.
Very low emissions and great fuel economy.
Designed by Ford in the UK.
Some technologies are in hybrid cars are not exclusive to them. they were just implemented there more widely. These include continuous transmission, turning engine off during idle, electricity from braking, etc.
I realize submitters often can't resist editorializing, but come on, this isn't a replacement for hybrid technology. Indeed, this engine could be part of a hybrid system just as easily as any other. Yes, early hybrids present a mixed record of success and failure and there are plenty of detractors. Nevertheless, battery technology will improve and cost to manufacture will continue to come down. The technology is still in its infancy and a just battery breakthrough alone changes the picture in a big way. At the very least, hybrid technology is a great bridge to all-electric vehicles and the added range compared to an all-electric will long be of interest.
Hyundai already ships what this article touts.
"The new fuel delivery system has allowed the engineering team to bump the compression ratio from 10.5:1 up to 11.3:1."
Look at the Sonata specs. Non-turbo 200HP with 2.4L engine and 35MPG.
Delphi is way behind the international competition.
I agree.
These engines will have high pressures (diesel-like) so they must be build strong to withstand that. They will have more steel at critical points, and the moving parts will be more stress-tolerant ($$). So they will be heavier. And, like a diesel, you can expect half-a-million miles, unlike a gas engine, because of the robust construction. That will cause lower sales in the long run.
...just wake me up when I can actually buy one
No. WV is the US state of West Virginia. Although I hadn't heard they were dabbling in government-owned automotive companies.
WV still has an auto industry even if it isn't government-owned like GM. Toyota makes motors there.
In pavement management systems, the first four classifications (below) are ignored as insignificant.
from: http://www.eng.mu.edu/crovettj/courses/ceen4660/PMS-Notebook.pdf
module-page: 7-10
The HPMS includes thirteen vehicle classifications defined as follows:
1. Motorcycles (not required).
2. Passenger Cars (not required).
3. Other Two-Axle, Four-Tire Single-Unit Vehicles.
4. Buses.
5. Two-Axle, Six-Tire, Single-Unit Trucks.
6. Three-Axle Single-Unit Trucks.
7. Four or More Axle Single-Unit Trucks.
8. Four or Less Axle Single-Trailer Trucks.
9. Five-Axle Single-Trailer Trucks.
10. Six or More Axle Single-Trailer Trucks.
11. Five or Less Axle Multi-Trailer Trucks.
12. Six-Axle Multi-Trailer Trucks.
13. Seven or More Axle Multi-Trailer Trucks.
For the estimation of ESAL loadings, vehicle classifications 1 through 4 are generally
ignored because their contribution is very small in comparison to that of classes 5
through 13.
Cue the expensive HPFP replacements. Unless someone can/will produce/sell them cheap? I personally don't want another GDI motor.
Homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) gas engines have been discussed, designed, and tested for a long time. Direct injection HCCI is not a new idea either.
It is great that there's more progress being made, but let's not pretend Delphi invented the idea.
I am not sure what "this" means.
For centuries people would have written "thus" for the same purpose, which now survives only to point out errors, rather than agreement [sic]. More recent fashion was "just so". Current fashion is "this", though it's a bit soon to see it that will last.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
... the last person to invent the diesel engine got to play with the fishes on a dark and lonely night at sea.
For us carnivores, "Sucking the marrow out of life" isn't a transcendentalist philosophy but a practical instruction.
... If electric cars were really widespread enough to cause a problem, there would also be enough of them to help do some load-levelling on the grid, if you have the infrastructure ...
That's the key, sadly it is unrealistic to expect that infrastructure. Grid connections at each parking space will reduce parking capacity. Capacity was already a problem at the last couple of places that I worked. Plus these electrical devices will need ongoing inspection and maintenance (exposed to weather, bumped by cars, etc). Not to mention ripping apart parking lots and parking structures to retrofit. With the possible exception of a few of subsidized/greenwashing/vanity spots next to the building there will be no place to plug in your car.
This.
Diesel engines are more expensive than gas. It pays off in the end, but most people are short-sighted and don't want to pay the upfront costs.
This engine uses direct injection--that is, it has a very high pressure fuel injection system that injects fuel into the cylinder right when the compression is highest. That CVCC engine uses a standard carb.
Gasoline is not priced by supply and demand, it is priced by what the market will bear.
What would you consider to be the difference between those two? Demand is currently basically equal to supply, so the price is set as high as it can be without people screaming bloody murder and switching to alternatives.
Please stop with the FUD. Most people will charge their EV's overnight, when electricity demand is lowest (and so are the spot prices for electricity). That's hardly going to "stress" the grid. Also, as more people put solar panels on their roofs the load on the grid falls. See this article for the impact existing solar photovoltaic capacity has had on wholesale electricity prices in Germany to get an idea for what the solar panels mean to stress points (aka peak demand) on the grid.
There's another factor to consider as well, the growing efficiency of powered devices and of transmission technology. If you have been following the advances with graphene and carbon nanotubes at all you'd know we're on the threshold of a quantum leap on that score.
Will there be challenges with this conversion in our energy & transportation economies? Sure. But they pale next to the problems that fossil fuels are creating for us. So stop mindlessly (or purposely) spreading FUD about EV's.
If not us, who? If not now, when?
We've had semiconductor-microprocessor engine control technology for 105 years?
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
The current car I drive has a 3.8 liter engine and makes 415 hp - that's about 3x the amount (I think it has the highest output per liter of any naturally aspirated car made so far). I bet you might get better gas mileage than me though...
I used to drive a VW turbo diesel about 20 years ago - worst mileage I ever got was 43 - best about 60. I think it took about 12 seconds to get to 60, and I think I sustained permanent hearing loss from it.
If this enables vehicles to go 33% farther on a tank of fuel, Gasoline tax base will have to change to make up for the loses. Catch 22 for the State or more pot holes.
He's saying "This" as shorthand for "I agree with this" or "you can say that (this) again". It's pretty stupid and annoying, if you ask me.
Delphi's engine, using a technique called gasoline-direct-injection compression ignition, could rival the performance of hybrid automobiles at a cheaper cost.
I don't think so. The person who wrote this didn't foresee that the combustion part of the hybrid will be using the exact same technique.
...Boost Fuel Economy By 50%
Yes, if you read that gasoline engines have an efficiency of 30% and diesels of 40-45%, then 50% improvement for the gasoline means 50% of 30%, or 15% absolute, which brings it exact on the maximum diesel efficiency of 45%.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
Anti-hybrid articles full of crocodile tears over the pollution from batteries and rare earth are just hand-waving drivel. Most transportation lifecycle analyses just take the weight of a car; the Prius weighs the same 1.5 tons as other midsize cars. So cue fact-free diatribes about dirty rare earth and nickel mining, complete with pictures of Sudbury from 40 years ago.
But here's where you need to apply common sense. The 100 pounds of recyclable NiMH batteries (including about 20 pounds of nickel) and ?? pounds of rare earth for magnets and electronics in a hybrid probably *do* involve more pollution pound-for-pound than all the other crap that goes into making a conventional car. But over 120,000 miles they result in 3 tons less gasoline getting burned compared with the 35 mpg TDI for which diesel fanbois have such a hard-on (here's the math). Every one of those 6,000 pounds of gasoline saved would have been dirty and polluting to produce, spill, and refine, and they all wound up in the atmosphere.
=S
The hybrid is there to solve the problem of stop-start traffic in crowded cities. In that situation it was a clear winner years ago.
Not everyone does nothing but high speed highway driving (which is where hybrids still suck in comparison).
Dual mass flywheels, high pressure / common-rail injection, variable geometry turbochargers, all have had a catastrophic effect on diesel reliability. I have driven several old-school diesels to very high mileages but when it was time to change car most recently I bought a petrol car to convert to gas.. as I no longer trust modern diesel technology
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
let's go forward, not backward. call it delphi, call it gm, it's the kiss of death. remember the gm diesel?
GM has been working on this for years, with Delphi and others (Bosch comes to mind). It is a dual mode combustion system concept without a throttle plate on the intake side. At low loads, it runs a butt-load of cooled EGR as an inert gas in the cylinder fill and a small amount of combustion air and fuel. Because emission controls (cats) require stoichiometric fuel/air ratio, the use of EGR in the cylinder fill volume and a small amount of fresh air and fuel serves to keep compression pressures high enough for compression ignition but with a relatively low power output. At low loads, the small amount of fuel each cycle and the lack of pumping losses over a throttle plate are the main contributors to improved fuel consumption. At high power levels, it operates with much less EGR like a traditional GDI engine with typical power densities and emission levels. The trick has been to make smooth transitions from low to high power without stumbles.
Wake up and go with NATURAL GAS. Dirt cheap and lots of it!
In my arrogant opinion, avoiding oil the key. Oil comes from very oppressive and aggressive places - Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran. By buying oil we fund a future Jewish genocide. We engage Israel's enemies militarily (thus increasing the already excessive US military, and feeding anti-Americanism) with our right hand and throw bags of money at them with our left hand. This is *extremely* counter-productive; it would be very funny if it wasn't so tragic. The government should overtax gas-guzzlers (including SUVs!), subsidise economic cars and lift the barriers on Brazilian ethanol.
Wake me when this thing is more than a one-lunger test mule.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
The www.mpgleader.com fuel system is the silver bullet!
Investor Alert re: www.mpgleader.com fuel system!!
It means "I'm an idiot".
to add a turbo to that thing? I mean going all out at 3 PSI, maybe a BOV too? I bet that extra 5-10 HP would feel monstrous!
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Great post. Something by me on a related theme:
"Why luxury safer electric cars should be free-to-the-user"
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/09eb7f4c973349f2
"This essay explain why luxury safer electric (or plug-in hybrid) cars should be free-to-the-user at the point of sale in the USA, and why this will reduce US taxes overall. Essentially, unsafe gasoline-powered automobiles in the USA pose a high cost on society (accidents, injuries, pollution, defense), and the costs of making better cars would pay for themselves and then some. This essay is an example of using post-scarcity ideology to understand the scarcity-oriented ideological assumptions in our society and how those outdated scarcity assumptions are costing our society in terms of creating and maintaining artificial scarcity."
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.