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Is It Time To End Our Love Affair With the QWERTY Keyboard?

Master Moose writes "Brisbane-based entrepreneur John Lambie currently has in beta an alternative to what he calls the 'dysfunctional' QWERTY keyboard. Given the way the world is abandoning their keyboards for smartphones he sees now as the perfect time to introduce a new layout. He calls his new keyboard Dextr and believes it is the natural progression from using a number pad to enter text — This is especially so in developing countries where users have not grown up with QWERTYs on thier phones. While he is not the first to ever propose an alternate or alphabetical keyboard — Are we locked into QWERTY for familiarity's sake, or as we shift to smaller, more mobile and new devices, is Mr. Lambie's project coming at the right time?"

557 comments

  1. No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No. That is all.

    1. Re:No by Slashbots · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And don't get me even started with countries that have other character sets like Russia, Germany or Thailand. Come on Slashdot, how hard it is to know anything outside US?

    2. Re:No by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's a compelling argument. I would add to it but TFA seems to be blatant slashvertizing. Dextr is some shitty app they are trying to promote.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No. That is all.

      How the hell did this get insightful?

      the problem with texting on smartphones isn't the keyboard layout, it's that big fat thumbs sometimes hit the button next to the intended one. While qwerty is no better than any other layout on a smartphone, it IS a great layout on pc keyboards which is where I do most of my typing, so why should I learn two layouts when the one I use most often is at worst equally bad as any other?

    4. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've been using a custom keyboard layout for years, and I do find it better than QWERTY's default.

      For the curious, top left to bottom right:
      `12345@67890#
      jwertqkylp[]
      asdfghuio-'
      \zxcvbnm,./

      Familiar enough to be able to swap between the two, but much more comfortable to type on.

    5. Re:No by Pieroxy · · Score: 1

      That's a compelling argument

      The fact is that nobody gives a damn about their keyboard layout. Once you're used to yours it works and that's all there is to know about it.

      Are there people out there that really think they can invent a new layout and popularize it by posting it to slashdot? Some dudes are just living in their very own universe...

    6. Re:No by DeathToBill · · Score: 3, Informative

      Betteridge's law in action.

      --
      Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
    7. Re:No by Auroch · · Score: 1

      You and me, fat fingered folk ... need to push for chorded keyboards.

      --
      Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
    8. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Come on Slashdot, how hard it is to know anything outside US?

      Pretty hard, apparently.

      Even now, in the 21st Century, with our flying cars and Mr. Fusions, /. still doesn't allow the full Latin-1 character set. I can't type a Euro Sign, or a cent or an AE ligature.

      WTF /. Get with the times.

    9. Re:No by eggstasy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Is it time to stop ending titles with question marks?

    10. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. That is all.

      How the hell did this get insightful?

      Raw natural talent. Some of us are just born with insight.

    11. Re:No by gl4ss · · Score: 2

      dextr should be called the abc layout.

      it looks like it uses more of the screen too, so there's that.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    12. Re:No by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      Hm ... you could cut off your thumbs and replace them with something smaller?

    13. Re:No by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      well you just said the same thing a bit longer.

      you want to know what sucks about dextr? o and u are next to each other.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    14. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, and the problem with keyboard layouts is that optimizing them results in dependency of the language. Which makes it annoying for people typing in multiple languages. Even QWERTY has modifications for Spanish and French, which makes bothersome sometimes to find the ñ or the Ã, and even the backslash or the pipe.

    15. Re:No by mjwx · · Score: 5, Informative

      How the hell did this get insightful?

      Because it references Betteridge's Law of Headlines which states any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no. The rest was just filler to get passed the lameness filter.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    16. Re:No by agallagh42 · · Score: 5, Informative

      ...QWERTY is a HORRIBLE layout and was designed to BE horrible, to slow down typists writing on mechanical typewriters.

      From Wikipedia:
      "A popular myth is that QWERTY was designed to "slow down" typists though this is incorrect – it was designed to prevent jams while typing at speed, allowing typists to type faster."

      --
      Carpe Cerevisi - Seize the Beer
    17. Re:No by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I'm still lucky if I can get a pound symbol in many places.

    18. Re:No by tenco · · Score: 0

      If you want to live in your own bubble, google your news for nerds.

    19. Re:No by God+Of+Atheism · · Score: 1

      Qwerty is worse, there you have i o u next to another.

    20. Re:No by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      Germans seems pretty happy with their qwerty keyboards. If you look at national keyboards, they are minor variations of qwerty. (e.g. the Hungarian one switches y and z and adds í).

    21. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, I don't. I like your folklore.

    22. Re:No by Jesus_666 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't want to defend /.'s weird character set but the Euro sign isn't part of Latin-1. You're thinking of Latin-15 (aka "Latin 1 with the Euro sign instead of generic currency sign").

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    23. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't Germans use QWERTZ?

    24. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's with the 3.

      #

      See?

      (disclaimer: I know what he actually means.)

    25. Re:No by xaxa · · Score: 3, Informative

      Euro: €
      Cent:
      AE: Æ æ

      Incidentally, the "Compose" key functionality in Linux (which you will have to enable, in the GUI or with setxkbmap -option compose:menu (to make the "Menu" key the compose key) is really useful. I typed € with Compose, C, =. AE/Æ was Compose, A, E. Lots of other characters are a couple of keypresses away.)

    26. Re:No by todrules · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's just Shift-3 > #. There ya go.

    27. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It got modded insightful because its fucking correct.

    28. Re:No by schroedingers_hat · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Thinking about things logically and taking autocorrect into account, it seems the ideal layout for a phone would place its letters based on (minimizing) the probabiliy that adjacent letters would appear in a word.

    29. Re:No by schroedingers_hat · · Score: 1

      Oblig slightly modified xkcd reference:
      Hey baby, if I could rearrange the keyboard I'd put u and i in different places because seriously, two vowels together?

    30. Re:No by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

      And don't get me even started with countries that have other character sets like Russia, Germany or Thailand. Come on Slashdot, how hard it is to know anything outside US?

      I believe the critical part of the Slashdot slogan that applies here is "stuff that matters."

    31. Re:No by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 1

      It's a reaction to the current /. trend of headlining articles with a question to which the answer is clearly "no". "Is Linux Dead?", "Have Microsoft Beaten Viruses?", "Is Product X The Greatest Thing Ever?", that kind of nonsense.

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    32. Re:No by Brama · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Having bigger keys is a big improvement. And since the current generation touchscreens are so sensitive, one button can easily be used for multiple letters with a single action (tap or swipe). That's why I fell in love with messagease. There's a learning curve involved, but with the supplied game you pick it up quite fast.

      What I like about this keyboard is that the buttons are big, yet they offer multiple letters on each. Plus, you don't have to switch modes to type capital letters or most of the punctuation or other special characters. Or even numbers for the more advanced users. I can write properly formatted text with capitals and punctuation marks quite rapidly now, and it doesn't involve any type of auto-correction of suggestion at all!

      Also, the dev behind this thing responds very rapidly to suggestions and bug fixes. Vim-users (who are already used to learning curves ;) should definitely give this thing a spin.

    33. Re:No by ratbag · · Score: 1

      When I'm in the data-centre at Frankfurt, the Y and the Z key suggest that you're wrong about Germans using QWERTY.

    34. Re:No by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      Thanks. Now I know which key all my breadcrumbs hide under.

    35. Re:No by broggyr · · Score: 2

      No.

      --
      Irony? Yea, it's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made of iron!
    36. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, that's called the "hash sign".

      This is a pound symbol: £

      Fucking yanks.

    37. Re:No by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

      Of course not!

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    38. Re:No by w3dg · · Score: 2

      To be fair, everybody in every country likes to live in their own little bubble.

    39. Re:No by ratbag · · Score: 3, Informative

      Replying to my own post because I can.

      Here's a pretty picture of a German keyboard showing some of the other differences that my anglo-centric non-umlaut-needing mind had blanked out.

    40. Re:No by V-similitude · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fact that QWERTY was designed for a typewriter, ie with the most-used keys farthest apart, probably is a benefit for virtual keyboards (and I'm saying this as someone who exclusively uses dvorak for regular typing). If you have the vowels all in the same place (like this, or like dvorak), you're going to get a lot more typos that the OS can't fix for you (eg "in" vs "on", since they're both valid choices). Of course, "in" vs "on" is still an issue on qwerty, so we could definitely do better, but it's an entirely different optimization decision than with a physical 10-finger keyboard.

      Of course, it doesn't seem like any typing optimizations at all went into this arbitrarily-touted keyboard, so no comment there.

    41. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hm ... you could cut off your thumbs and replace them with something smaller?

      Don't bother cutting off your thumbs, just graft on a slim thumb as the sixth finger on each hand.

    42. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.

    43. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as it can plug into a USB port and sends the same key stokes why should we care what keyboard a person chooses to use?

    44. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in before the whoosh comments begin!

    45. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to. You yourself point out its aka "Latin-1 with Euro sign" In Unicode it's all just Latin.

      £×é퀩Æ

      Interesting, /. finally did get with times. Whadayaknow.

      I still can't get a superscript 1 though. I can edit it, but it's not in the preview window or the final text.

    46. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But some wag will point out the the Euro sign is actually in the Unicode currency section, not the Latin section. meh

    47. Re:No by uigrad_2000 · · Score: 2

      Or, it could be called the "5x5 abc layout", since other abc layouts have existed longer than even qwerty.

      Or, it could be called the "layout that no one asked for, but got anyway".

      --
      Free unix account: freeshell.org
    48. Re:No by Wandering+Voice · · Score: 1

      Be careful not to make the same mistake as QWERTY, in placing the Y before U and I.

    49. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The side effect of the QWERTY design is that it slowed down the faster typists but, yes, the main design goal was to prevent jams by making it harder to type fast (Wait a minute ...).

    50. Re:No by bandy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Pounds Sterling. Fucking limey.

      --
      "You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
    51. Re:No by Kergan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No?

    52. Re:No by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

      OK, wise guy, where can I get a Yoruba keyboard?

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    53. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, let's all switch to on screen keyboards, because, like, you know, who needs to actually type anything other than "k" and smileys anymore.

    54. Re:No by Bigby · · Score: 1

      No, is it time to stop answering questioning titles with 'No'?

    55. Re:No by anagama · · Score: 1

      Thanks for pointing this out. I fairly frequently write confusing messages because "I" and "U" are right next to each other and can really change the intended meaning: "I need to lose weight" v. "U need to lose weight" (I never use "U" for "you" but nobody really knows that).

      Anyway, I'll try messagease for a few days to see if it turns out to be less error prone than qwerty -- qwerty has a familiarity advantage of course. One thing I liked right off the bat about messagease is that it needs no special permissions of any kind. It's rare to see android apps that don't want to know your contact list even if all they're doing is converting weights and measures or such.

      As for dextr, it doesn't look like any thought was put into arranging the keyboard based on the letter content of words. Alphabetical order is just as random in that sense as qwerty, and lacks qwerty's familiarity.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    56. Re:No by Larryish · · Score: 1

      Whooooosh!!!

    57. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      QWERTY isn't "horrible, it just isn't "great". If it was horrible, people wouldn't be able to type faster than they can talk.

    58. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an urban legend. Touch typing wasn't invented at the beginnings of QWERTY, it came later so jamming wasn't an issue. See The Truth of QWERTY. In short, slowing down typists or preventing jams were never intended.

      Anyway, this Dextr keyboard will fail. This layout was tried at the beginnings of the French Minitel, for the same reasons. Given the feedback they quickly reverted to AZERTY (the QWERTY variant used in France). And this happened in the first half of the 80s, before everyone had a computer.

    59. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with entering text on smartphones is fingers. You almost never have them free, and at best only 5. Almost all of us who use computers regularly have learned to type with all ten fingers in rapid succession, and even then, at a very large # of wpm, I don't feel like it is keeping up.

      Before I want to hear about new layouts, I want to hear about new input devices.

    60. Re:No by MadKeithV · · Score: 1

      Yes, they do. Which leads to the hilarious situation here at the office when picking up any random keyboard: it could be qwerty, it could be azerty, it could be one of the few qwertz, and if you're really unlucky it's a ukrainian keyboard which is sort of like "everything at once".

    61. Re:No by Ol+Biscuitbarrel · · Score: 1

      A better layout would cut down on teh proliferation of spelling errors.

    62. Re:No by tsa · · Score: 1

      The end of qwerty is like Linux on the desktop.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    63. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Everytime you see 'latin-1' or 'iso-8859-1' think 'windows-1252'.

      Forcing the real, pure 8859-1 will only break things for 0 benefit. Even the HTML5 committee got this.

    64. Re:No by SomePoorSchmuck · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Thinking about things logically and taking autocorrect into account, it seems the ideal layout for a phone would place its letters based on (minimizing) the probabiliy that adjacent letters would appear in a word.

      I completely disagree. For example, if "a" and "n" were adjacent, thumb-typing "banana" would be a breeze. Your text keyboard covers made a one to two square inch area in most cases; moving your finger five milimeters in any given direction is easy and actually minimizes mistakes because once oriented to the first correct letter you can more easily make a small adjustment to the next letter than you can lift your thumb and move it an inch to drop down correctly on a far-away letter.. And adjcency is already built into autocorrect functions, so if the letters get slightly jumbled from typing to fast the correct word will still pop up most of the time. Unlike a large mechanical keyboard which covers a full octave of physical space for each hand, the major difficulty in texting isn't moving the fingers to cover the space, it's ensuring the fingers are tapping the correct characters and that the software can easily recognize what should have been the correct characters

      Instead, I would say that the ideal layout for a phone would place letters based on a large matrix minimizing the probability that any two adjacent letters could fill in the same location in a word that is otherwise the same. In English, this is a dominant feature of vowels and a huge frustration with UIO in the current layout -- put pot pit, shut shot shit, un on in, lick luck lock, etc. There are consonants which are equally problematic; you definitely don't want "k" and "h" next to each other -- back Bach, muck much, lock Loch, stacked stached,

      --

      Hollywood, Television, has become the dream machine. We need to take that back; each of us is a Dream Machine
    65. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TOO fast dammit! I hate when I doo that.

    66. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, is it time to stop answering questioning titles with 'No'?

      No, not when the answer is 'No'. Only if the answer were "Yes" and the poster answered 'No' than we can talk.

    67. Re:No by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      And if you type too fast on smarthphones you run the risk of causing a software lockup, and thus a poor customer experience. Thus being forced to hunt and peck slows things down enough that software has enough time to run important background jobs, like downloading advertisements, draining battery, transmitting your location to FBI, etc.

    68. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interestingly enough OS X actually ported back the virtual keyboard into the normal OS. So now if I miss type on my computer, it does the same error correction. It is actually pretty handy, even if you miss type less on an actual keyboard vs a virtual one.

      Luckily it doesn't do predictive typing on a normal computer, I am not sure if I am ready for that yet.

    69. Re:No by he-sk · · Score: 1

      a-umlaut: ä
      o-umlaut: ö
      u-umlaut: ü

      Still broken? Preview shows them, but what about when the comment is posted...?

      --
      Free Manning, jail Obama.
    70. Re:No by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      No, that's called the "hash sign".

      This is a pound symbol: £

      Oh, that's an easy one too: Option-3 > £. There ya go.

      Unless you're working on some kind of backwards dinosaur computer that still requires funky numeric sequences to access its extended character set...

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    71. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the main design goal was to prevent jams by making it harder to type fast (Wait a minute ...).

      No, the main design goal was to prevent jams by separating the elements of common letter pairs by as much as possible. For example, the only point where the levers for the common "AN" pair get close enough to jam is at the printhead itself, while the levers for the uncommon "OP" pair can jam throughout most of their travel. If you measure typing speed strictly from a time-and-motion perspective, QWERTY slows things down, but once you factor in time lost to clearing jams, it speeds things up.

    72. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. That is all.

      As parent says NO simple as

    73. Re:No by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      Not until the questioning titles stop being questioning.

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    74. Re:No by galanom · · Score: 1

      No, it's Slashdot filtering out certain chars, not that we can't type them.
      For example I didn't see the "cent" sign.

    75. Re:No by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      AllChars is a windows program to add compose-like functionality.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    76. Re:No by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      I use Colemak for both touch typing and on-screen typing.
      It's a bit more optimized than Dvorak, keeps the common shortcut qwazxcv keys in the same locations, and is easy to install for Windows/Mac/Linux/Android. It is also pretty good for typing accented characters.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    77. Re:No by ZarelTgr · · Score: 1

      On a shitty host too... already returning 509 (/.ed hard!) ... well done.

    78. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it does not.

    79. Re:No by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Cool. A keyboard where the keys are arranged alphabetical..

      I wonder if they got a patent for the idea ..

    80. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What, just because its better? Are you kidding! We Americans are so conservative we can't even adopt the metric system of measures. Let's leave more efficient typing to the Australians.

    81. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am Brazilian, we have different characters like ç for example. That never stoped me from typing this in the US-intl keyboard I am using right now. The brazilian layout altough is something AWFUL where they misplaced even the ENTER key to add this stupid character cut backspace to half size and almost removed the left shift.

      If you want to type , learn to use US int.

    82. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Octothorp. Bell end, oops I mean invented by guys at bell labs.

    83. Re:No by 3dr · · Score: 1

      One thing I have enjoyed about Macs since starting to use them in the late 80's was the ease with which you could enter the "decorated" characters. The Option key is like the compose key on other keybds. Opt-: u gives a umlaut-u, Opt-* gives a bullet, Opt-' gives accents, etc.

      On DOS/Windows one had to use Alt plus the num keys, and enter the actual character code. Alt-2,4,7 would give character #247. Pathetic.

  2. Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For the love of all that is holy, stop wasting time trying to 'fix' something that is not broken!

    1. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Tmann72 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They Qwerty keyboard layout was specifically designed to prevent jamming in typewriters while at full typing speed.It optimized the usage of the levers to prevent those jams. This functionality is useless in the modern world, and there are in fact better alternatives. It may not be broken, but it's not necessarily the best tool for the job.

    2. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      However, the problem was as people learned how to use QWERTY keyboards, their typing speed increased to a point where it doesn't matter how the keys are located. Typing speed remains nearly unaffected, just as long as people know where the keys are.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      there are in fact better alternatives

      Sure, but alphabetical order isn't one of them.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by gatkinso · · Score: 2

      Change the keyboard layout and it sure as hell WILL be broken.

      --
      I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    5. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For ten-fingered input, the maximum gains in typing performance brought on by a new keyboard layout are minimal; one or two percent at best. As long as your hands can reach the whole keyboard, the difference in time it takes for any given keystroke is negligible. The real benefit that comes from, for example, Dvorak vs. QWERTY, is a reduction in stress on the hands, and hence RSI. Saying that QWERTY "optimized" typewriter jamming would be overly generous; the improvement over the traditional alphabetical key ordering was only performed to a modest extent, and the typists of the day were not proficient touch-typists as we are now.

      In the case of thumb-typing, however, great improvement is possible. The Metropolis keyboard, for example, was generated stochastically by optimising an energy function based on letter pair frequency, and provides a 40% typing speed increase over QWERTY.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    6. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

      Indeed, I would very much expect an alphabetically ordered layout to be technically slightly superior to QWERTY.

    7. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet outside of a few nerds, no one cares. Plenty of people are proficient at QWERTY and will see nothing but a step back from changing it on them.

    8. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Riceballsan · · Score: 1

      I for one disagree, honestly the QWERTY layout, is a relic of the past. We have dvorak and colemak that are drastically better for the job of typing faster with fewer typos. They aren't adopted because for people already familiar with QWERTY it is hard to learn something new, and we don't insist on having our teachers teach the next generation what is best. Honestly if we started teaching dvorak at the age we start teaching typing, we would have a huge improvement in typing efficiancy for the next generation of kids. Just like we would have drastically easier time in math and sciences, if we started teaching with the metric system. Now as far as the actual topic, I don't see how comparing QWERTY or any keyboard to a system for typing on a celphone has any merit whatsoever. Keyboards aren't going to go away. No matter how efficiant or well designed a system designed for compactness instead of raw speed and ease of use is, it will never compare to a keyboard, and thus never be the ideal choice for anything involving dealing with more than a paragraph at a time. Well that is until we master reading of brain waves and can just think our words onto a screen, but that is probably at least a decade off.

    9. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by l3v1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "They Qwerty keyboard layout was specifically designed to prevent jamming in typewriters while at full typing speed.It optimized the usage of the levers to prevent those jams. This functionality is useless in the modern world [...]" and as with a lot of things in computing, it reached a point where it is totally pointless to compare the current situation to the origins (e.g. think about the endless debates about changing de facto standard icons like floppy disk for save and so on and so forth). It doesn't matter now why it was done so. But it matters that the current majority of computer users are accustomed to it to a point where changing it wouldn't be worth the hassle. Now, providing options for other layouts, that's a different story, there's nothing wrong with that. But this dextr (or what) thing should stay on the touchscreens and be done with it, in the big family of gazillion+1 versions of touchscreen keyboard variants. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. Too much fuss again about some piece of crap.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    10. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I for one disagree, honestly the QWERTY layout, is a relic of the past.

      And how many keyboard users even care? .01%? .1%? There are plenty of "relics of the past" that we still use today because, get this, there is nothing wrong with them. Changing things to change them is not a valid reason.

    11. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      For the love of all that is holy, stop wasting time trying to 'fix' something that is not broken!

      I for one support our new non qwerty overlords :)

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    12. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Bayoudegradeable · · Score: 1

      Even Kormack is dismayed... I guess he has to post AC for obvious reasons....

      --
      Sig Registration Form 34c_766(a) submitted to Ministry of Signature Management. Approval pending.
    13. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by guttentag · · Score: 3, Funny

      Saying that QWERTY "optimized" typewriter jamming would be overly generous...

      [sarcasm] Apparently it's not just for typewriters. Microsoft said the reason my computer crashed so much was because I was using Dvorak, resulting in crossed bits that would become bound together and were too big to fit through my computer's 16-bit processor. They said this would happen less if I reverted to QWERTY because they keys were optimized to limit crossed bits. I became skeptical of this answer after it continued to happen with 32-bit Windows, given that the processor could now handle more bits than there were letters in the alphabet. [/sarcasm]

    14. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't. A good keyboard layout typically has one type one letter from one hand, then the next letter from the other hand, then back to the first hand alternating as much as possible. A simply alphabetical keyboard doesn't achieve this goal very well due to a tendency for the common letters to be grouped together.

    15. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Auto rotate the keyboard layout between QWERTY, Dvorak, Alphabetical and random daily in an entire company as a move "to find the optimal keyboard layout". Claim the test should not be interrupted for 2 years in order to get the dataset complete.
      Then hell will be beyond broken.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    16. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by MrHanky · · Score: 2

      Not for mobile phones (this thing is for Android), since you typically want to hold it in one hand while typing with the index finger of the other. Or if you're lucky enough to have an old T9 device, typing with the thumb of the hand you're holding the phone in (which is still possible with touch screens, but sucks big hairy goat balls). If I wanted to bother with reinventing the keyboard layout, I'd look at how to get something like Swype or SlideIT to work more efficiently and less error-prone using the thumb only.

    17. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by gr8_phk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed, I would very much expect an alphabetically ordered layout to be technically slightly superior to QWERTY.

      I wouldn't. Alphabetical order is only good for people who need to search for the keys. Anyone who has even moderate typing ability does not need to look at the keys. So placing the keys in a way that takes into account letter frequency and doublet frequency and human dexterity would seem to be the way to go - that's a complicated problem which I would bet does not have alphabetical order as an optimal solution.

      As I type this looking at the screen and not the keyboard, I realize that my biggest problem is getting my hands misaligned when returning to the home position - this is due to my tendency to not use my pinkie fingers which mean I need to move side-to-side more. I either need a keyboard that helps me get back home, or I need to learn to use all my fingers when they are supposed to - hey, I used a pinky for an "a" - go me!

    18. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not for mobile phones (this thing is for Android), since you typically want to hold it in one hand while typing with the index finger of the other.

      Maybe you do. Maybe all your friends do.

      I and everyone I know gets the damn phone in landscape and starts pounding with two thumbs whenever there's a significant amount of typing -- but unlike both you and GP, I'm not prepared to treat that anecdotal evidence as as proof that everyone does it my way... Ain't it great, though, that you can develop a one-digit input method, we can develop a two-thumb input method, and everyone can install whichever works best for them!

    19. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Basically we know that as long as people are familiar with the key locations, they can type fast - i.e. the limitation is almost certainly the human ability to coordinate our fingers.

      So it's really questionable how much benefit you get from changing the keyboard layout to try and optimize it, since is it really the limiting factor in productivity?

      The main use case I can think of for wanting a different keyboard layout would be in programming, where we depend more on the outer-keyboard shapes and symbols like braces, $ @ etc.

      But that's not what's being proposed here.

    20. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by uigrad_2000 · · Score: 1

      And how many keyboard users even care? .01%? .1%?

      Probably a lot more than that. I switched to Dvorak 13 years ago, and have never switched back. I've met a lot of other dvorak users, although I often have worked with someone for several months before we find out that we both use dvorak. It just doesn't come up in conversation very often.

      Dvorak/Colemak are probably disproportionately common in CS, but I'm pretty sure that the market dominance is well above .01% and .1%. My guess would be around 0.5% - 1%.

      A lot of people use keyboards 8 hours a day at work, and then go home and spend another 1-2 hours at home at a keyboard. It certainly seems to be worth the time it takes to switch.

      --
      Free unix account: freeshell.org
    21. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Bigby · · Score: 1

      Not completely true. If one finger were dedicated to the E, A, S, T, N, and I keys, then the maximum speed will be limited by the speed of that finger. Each finger is a "thread" of typing. One finger can type immediately after another finger, but if one finger has to type twice in a row, it slows you down. QWERTY utilizes this idea, because keys in the same column are least likely to be used back-to-back. This keeps the hammers from being used back-to-back (jams) and your finger from typing back-to-back keys.

    22. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Incidentally, a lot of keyboards can't handle a large number of simultaneous keys being pressed due to what's called "ghosting". Try typing "THE QUICK RED FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG" with both shift keys held down. You'll be disappointed. (This is one of the reasons gaming keyboards cost so much.)

      ...also, I meant optimized against typewriter jamming, I guess. Still, there are lots of bad adjacent key pairs, like GH and ED, that should still cause typewriter jamming. The process used was not exactly perfect.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    23. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alphabetic keyboards cause your fingers to jam up as certain keys are used A LOT more than others, and they tend to be grouped together. QWERTY spreads them out.

    24. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I either need a keyboard that helps me get back home

      Get a better keyboard. All of the keyboards I've used in the last ten years have had some sort of tactile feedback on the F and J keys (index fingers) so that you could feel your way to them in the event that your hands become misplaced.

    25. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by WrecklessSandwich · · Score: 1

      Not true at all. The real important metric is typing effort. Sure you can go for a speed record with QWERTY, but it's going to cause serious injury to your wrists long-term. Read up on the research done by the Carpalx project. Long story short, not all key locations are created equal. Choice of finger matters. Row positioning matters. Rolls matter. Same-finger bigrams matter. Hand alternation matters, albeit not as much as Dvorak thought it did.

    26. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I for one disagree, honestly the QWERTY layout, is a relic of the past.

      And how many keyboard users even care? .01%? .1%? There are plenty of "relics of the past" that we still use today because, get this, there is nothing wrong with them. Changing things to change them is not a valid reason.

      Tell that to Obama and fans.

    27. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 1

      Not for mobile phones (this thing is for Android), since you typically want to hold it in one hand while typing with the index finger of the other.

      Generally on smartphones when people want to type quickly they hold the phone in both hands and type using both thumbs. So they do benefit from a layout like where key presses tend to alternate between left and right hands.

    28. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Vyse+of+Arcadia · · Score: 1

      I thought that was an urban legend. Didn't someone or other debunk the whole "qwerty was invented to slow typists down" thing?

    29. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by WuphonsReach · · Score: 2

      Emphasis on "get a better keyboard". Properly designed keyboards offer some sort of different texture / bump / ridge on the F and J keys to help you get back to the home row.

      The pointer nubby on a Thinkpad laptop is also useful, although I have yet to find a keyboard that replicates the feel properly. On the laptop, I never have to take my hands off the home row in order to move the mouse slightly in order to hit a dialog button. (The Unicomp Model M has a nubby, but feels too much like a joystick.)

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    30. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not that this will help matters much but...

      Have you looked closely at most keyboards? on the F and J keys (the home for the index fingers) you will see small raised bumps ( or bars ). If you are aware of this, it is possible to feel for the home keys. Just looking is probably faster because the bumps on those keys are quite subtle. I don't know if many people use them.

    31. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, for all that Steve Jobs was, he made a great living fixing things that many people didn't realize were broken.....

    32. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any gain in typing performance from a new keyboard layout would be dwarfed by the typing performance loss you would see in the transition phase.. over the whole keyboard using population.. over the whole world. Same old problem.. it's not broken enough to justify the retraining costs.

    33. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Nethead · · Score: 1

      I don't use my pinkies much either. I think that is from learning on an old Underwood #5 at a very young age where I didn't have the hand-heft to imprint a good 'a' or 'q', and so shifted my hand one finger over to do that. I also never use the right shift key because it was sticky on that specific Underwood. You would have thought that after 40+ years I would have retrained myself.

      I wonder how a young typist (keyboarder) that never had to deal with a non-electric mechanical typewriter would fair on that old Underwood. Not only were you not able to just backspace to correct an error, to get a clean page you had maintain a constant impact force on key letter.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    34. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Tmann72 · · Score: 1

      Those keys frustrate me daily!

    35. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fixing things that aren't broken is a major part of the economy.

      Without it, most web developers wouldn't have jobs. We never would have torn up the streetcars and built automobile suburbs. There wouldn't be any DRM'd Star Wars DVDs with totally wrong crap inserted.

    36. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until Atari put bumps on the F, J, and 5 (numpad) keys (MegaSTe, I think), a small dab of nail polish worked well; since then, all but one of the keyboards I've had came with bumps or a small ridge.

    37. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      Well, here's the comic book edition of the whole story, reasonably well-sourced.

    38. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      That limitation isn't normally you key bottle neck in typing. Well yes it is technically, but you are assuming that we type a maximum speed all the time.

      However we are more limited in our ability to process the thought. The Double letters doesn't really reduce our speed down too much, and if we do type too fast where that is an issue. We actually get the Computer version of jamming hammers, of jsut wriittng to fsat and yoru letters jstu dotn coem out in order.
      We actually tend to space ourselves a bit about the same length as doing a double letter just so all our letters come out in order.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    39. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I agree with the levers argument, but was there not also a lot of ergonomics work done with the QWERTY design in which the frequency of letters determined their position? Of course it was not called "ergonomics" back then, it was more practicality.

      The same engineering used to facilitate lever flow means that the hands and fingers tend to work with each other pretty well. Most words require two hands to type and the most common characters tend to be placed at the strongest fingers.

      I used to work with a guy that used, and swore by, the ergonomics of the Dvorak keyboard (I may have spelled it incorrectly). I grew up with QWERTY everything so when I saw the keyboard I was interested. I tried it, but found I could not use it. I don't look at keys when I type, which makes learning something new much harder. I know, showing my age here.. but in school we used the manual IBM typewriters and had to be able to copy 60WPM to pass the class. If you hunted and pecked keys, you flunked. From after that class, all reports had to be typed out on typewriter so the teaching stuck. Used to be they allowed no more than 2 corrections per page even, so 3 spots of white out could cost you a letter in grade.

      I'm sure that the wheel could have been re-invented and better. But how much better could it be? I type on average about 80 words a minute, have no problems with special keys when programming, etc.. Would the new lay out gain me 1-2 words a minute and take me months to get the layout memorized so I'm not constantly making mistakes? That in my opinion is not worth making a change for.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    40. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, for all that Steve Jobs was, he made a great living fixing things that many people didn't realize were broken.....

      And he never "fixed" the qwerty layout why? because it works for something like 99% of the people who use it. Are there better layouts out there? Sure but the time the average user is willing to spend researching and learning a new layout is more hassle than it is worth. If you want a better layout you make the conscious decision to switch, knowing that there is going to be some sort of learning curve.

    41. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Another fail idea is "no one uses X anymore so why aren't people using Y?" Those things show up on slashdot at least once a week.

    42. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      The need for the specific qwerty layout may be obsolete, however it is the standard. You can't just change standards by snapping fingers. People have been formally trained in it, it's what you buy in the stores, you can sit at someone else's keyboard and not be forced to hunt and peck, etc.

      Look at it this way, alphabetical order is itself stupid and obsolete. Why does A come before B? The ordering history goes back thousands of years, and even with roman letters the ordering varies between countries. There's no particular logic to it, vowels are all mixed up, soft and hard consonants intermixed, etc. But we all use standard collating order, we assume everyone after kindergarten knows it, and "the ABCs" is a popular phrase. We can't just pick up and decide that E should come first as the most popular letter (in US/UK anyway) because we'd have to retrain the entire population, reprint millions of reference books, etc.

      So qwerty is in the same boat in many ways.

    43. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Why is alphabetical considered better? The assumption I think is that it helps people who already know alphabetical order. But so what? People already know qwerty also. So the solution of using alphabetical order seems to orient to a section of population that knows the arbitrary and random alphabetical order but who does not know the less abitrary and less random qwerty order. Why not have an entirely random order if the goal is to reduce everyone to the same level of incomprehension?

    44. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am not sure if it is useless in the modern world.

      1. The prevent jamming optimization, probably also helps with your fingers not getting in each other way.
      2. Since when writing words the keys will be all over the keyboard, by that same design. The spelling checker in the OS can use keyboard hints for figuring out what you actually meant much better. if they keys would be much closer together, then it would be more difficult to guess.

    45. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Tenzen01 · · Score: 1

      I switched to Dvorak 10 years ago and haven't looked back. I switched primarily to ease the discomfort on my wrists rather than the purported typing speed increase. It is much less stress on my wrists even with all the special characters I am constantly typing as a programmer. I used to wear wrist guards to help keep my wrists at a flat angle and take some of the stress off typing and after switching my need for the wrist guards dropped off gradually until I didn't need them at all. I haven't seen any studies done on reduction in carpal tunnel or RSI but I can say that for me it definitely helped.

      As an aside, learning Dvorak was much harder back in the Windows 95/NT era where there was very little software support and it was all too common for one of the computers I used regularly not to support it. Nowadays all the OS's have support, even iOS (though only for external keyboards). However the thing that drives me insane is Windows. All the other OS's have a global keyboard setting. Windows is a PER-APPLICATION setting, and it has it done it this way since Windowns 95. If a user comes along that wants to switch the keyboard layout, they have to do that for every application they use. What sense does that make? What idiot designed this?

    46. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I cherish my model SK-8835 (L) Thinkpad branded USB keyboard which is a full size keyboard with numeric key pad and largish palm rests with the trackpoint and key layout almost identical to my old T41 and X200 and pretty close to my T410s. The key action is slightly deeper and stiffer than the laptops but otherwise feels almost the same even after four years of constant use on my Dell workstation.

      There was a smaller "mobile" version without the numeric keypad, and while it feels almost the same, I found that the narrow width and lower weight on the desk made it less comfortable for typing. It moves around too easily and just feels less stable. I left that tucked away with my media PC at home instead...

    47. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by WrecklessSandwich · · Score: 1

      I thought Windows was only per-application too when I first switched. You have to also set the default input language to what your normal layout and that problem goes away. It's the pulldown menu right above the list of installed services that can be reordered like it's supposed to be a priority list (it's not).

    48. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      [citation needed]

      Noyes, Jan (August 1988). "The QWERTY keyboard: a review". International Journal of Man-Machine Studies 18 (3): 265-281. DOI:10.1016/S0020-7373(83)80010-8

      I would very much expect an alphabetically ordered layout to be technically slightly superior to QWERTY.

      They invented the Dvorak for shits and giggles, then?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    49. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Basically we know that as long as people are familiar with the key locations, they can type fast - i.e. the limitation is almost certainly the human ability to coordinate our fingers.

      So it's really questionable how much benefit you get from changing the keyboard layout to try and optimize it, since is it really the limiting factor in productivity?

      I would tend to agree that the speed is not drastically changed by changing the keyboard, but I would disagree about there being no benefits at all. I find the key combinations in QWERTY that come up often to be rather annoying. Things like 'ed', and 'es'. There are others also where the fingering feel awkward. After I switched to DVORAK I find it feel more relaxed and fluent. The fingers can flow and find a rhythm where many common (in English) letter combinations are placed on alternating hands. And who ever uses the ';' key enough for it to be on the home row?! That's just a waste of a finger there. In dvorak all the vowels are right on the home row.

      Just try this comparison if you want to see some of the differences. The sentence 'how does this sentence compare when typed in the two layouts.' has 74.5% of the letters on the home row for dvorak compared to 25.49% on qwerty. That is a huge difference. That leads to finger distance traveled being 0.619m on dvorak and 1.659m on qwerty. It was after trying out a few sentences in a comparator like this that made me decide to try out dvorak for a while. Once I learned it, I have stuck with it because of how comfortable it feels. I can still switch to qwerty when using other people's computers, although admittedly my speed on that has dropped from what it was before. My speed on dvorak has reached what I was when I used to use qwerty though, so no problems there.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    50. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by guttentag · · Score: 1

      Incidentally, a lot of keyboards can't handle a large number of simultaneous keys being pressed due to what's called "ghosting". Try typing "THE QUICK RED FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG" with both shift keys held down. You'll be disappointed. (This is one of the reasons gaming keyboards cost so much.)

      This sounded familiar, and I was intrigued, so I attempted it on the built-in keyboard on my MacBook Pro. I was disappointed, but not in the keyboard, which performed as expected. I was disappointed in my inability to touch type while holding down both shift keys: THE QUICK RED FOD JUMOS IVER THE LSZY DOG. Same results on the built-in keyboard on a 2008 MacBook, only I hit different wrong keys. Then I tried again on the Apple bluetooth keyboard and saw what you were talking about. Apple's wired USB keyboard failed as well. Interesting...

    51. Re:Leave my keyboard alone! by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      I stole the idea from a post on 4chan's /g/, actually. I don't remember it exactly, but I think there are some newer MacBook Pros that are worse at it than older ones. PC keyboards, naturally, come in a range from $6 junk-heaps to $150 miracle machines—and sometimes the really cheap ones do better than some of the highly-priced ones!

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  3. Amazing how he has the only solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's not like there already are better keyboard options out there. Dvorak, I weep for your absence in everyday life.

    1. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would recommend Colemak. It is easier to learn for those that know qwerty already, about as efficient as dvorak with respect to hand movement and it is not as annoying with the placement of the L and the S key, which is sort of fundamental when you work with UNIX-like systems.

    2. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 5, Informative

      http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/221/was-the-qwerty-keyboard-purposely-designed-to-slow-typists
      "Baloney, say the authors of the article you enclose, S.J. Liebowitz and Stephen Margolis. They point out that (1) the research demonstrating the superiority of the Dvorak keyboard is sparse and methodologically suspect; (2) a sizable body of work suggests that in fact the Dvorak offers little practical advantage over the QWERTY; (3) at least one study indicates that placing commonly used keys far apart, as with the QWERTY, actually speeds typing, since you frequently alternate hands; and (4) the QWERTY keyboard did not become a standard overnight but beat out several competing keyboards over a period of years. Thus it may be fairly said to represent the considered choice of the marketplace. It saddens me to know I helped to perpetuate the myth of Dvorak superiority, but I will sleep better at night knowing I have rectified matters at last."

      Totally agree on spreading the keys apart. Easier on the fingers.
      Kinda like in gaming where if you repeatedly press keys in almost the same location, repeatedly, you start getting RSI.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    3. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      Have you a broken pinkie? 'ls' is really easy to enter so I'm not sure what you mean by 'annoying'.

    4. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good point. While Dvorak is really quite comfortable for typing English, it is less than perfect for other things such as foreign languages, UNIX commands, QWERTY-inspired shortcuts (Ctrl+V, Ctrl+C is one thing but wasd or ijkl direction keys are quite another) and of course programming (too many important pieces of syntax are stuck in the upper-right corner). However, in most cases these are not showstoppers and overall I find Dvorak is an upgrade from QWERTY if you have the patience to learn a new layout and you are almost always using your own computer.

    5. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be honest, I would prefer to learn something that's completely different than something that's treacherously similar to what I already know.

    6. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dropped Dvorak (in favor of Colemak) mainly because of ls -l. And also the fact that Ctrl+ZXCV are all over the keyboard.

    7. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Alternate hands is much, much, much more common on Dvorak than QWERTY. I know this because it was one of my major frustrations with the Dvorak layout--all sorts of things I used to be able to type one-handed, I no longer could. I've used Dvorak every day for almost 10 years now, and I still don't have any one-handed combos unless you count "ls", which I don't, because I never need to type that one-handed, and it uses the mouse hand anyway.

      Try it out--just take random words, and see if they're typable one-handed on each layout. Tally the results, stop when you're satisfied.

      Actually, screw it, here:

      # Words typable with left hand only, Dvorak:
      # aspell dump master | grep -E '^[pyaoeuiqjkx]+$' | wc -l
      144

      # Words typable with right hand only, Dvorak:
      aspell dump master | grep -E '^[fgcrldhtnsbmwvz]+$' | wc -l
      95

      # Words typable with left hand only, QWERTY:
      aspell dump master | grep -E '^[qwertasdfgzxcvb]+$' | wc -l
      2192

      # Words typable with right hand only, QWERTY:
      aspell dump master | grep -E '^[yuiophjklnm]+$' | wc -l
      292

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    8. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by xaxa · · Score: 1

      If you really don't like it:
      alias h=ls
      alias hh=ls -l

      And then just type 'h'. I've done this, but I don't have a problem typing things with Ls and Ss in them, like balls, bells, bills, boils and bulls, or ails, eels, isles... ills, oils and ... urinals.

    9. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The main point being exactly that in dvorak, ls is typed with only the right pinkie. This means that you move the hand to hit L with your pinkie on the upper row and then move it back to hit S. Independent on how your pinkies are formed, the pinkie is your weakest finger and the combination is just awkward if you need to type it often.

      Besides this, while not broken, my pinkies are bent (genetically) meaning that the problem is amplified on dvorak. I cannot hit the backspace key without moving my entire hand on a normal keyboard (solved with a TypeMatrix and a Kinesis) :)

    10. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 2

      Oh yeah:

      # Words typable with home row only, Dvorak:
      # aspell dump master | grep -E '^[aoeuidhtns]+$' | wc -l
      1787

      # Words typable with home row only, QWERTY:
      # aspell dump master | grep -E '^[asdfghjkl]+$' | wc -l
      129

      I don't care what keyboard layout you use, I really don't care which layout "wins" (Dvorak has already lost), and I really, really don't care about the irrelevant and probably bullshit "origin stories" of either one, but saying that QWERTY promotes using alternating hands is just factually incorrect, and that I do care about.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    11. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by hankwang · · Score: 1

      As a Dvorak user since 16 years I'd like to mentinon can add an anecdote: my typing speed did not go up by much (back then I could do about 400 characters per minute on Qwerty, nowadays it's 480 on Dvorak). But the strain on my fingers decreased tremendously. Dvorak is not particularily pleasant for C and LaTeX with locations of the \{} keys, though.

      ... placing commonly used keys far apart, as with the QWERTY, actually speeds typing, since you frequently alternate hand

      That's correct in a way, but not really an argument in favor of Qwerty above Dvorak, since Dvorak is actually much better in that respect than Qwerty.

    12. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      But wouldn't you want to hit the most frequent keys with the strongest fingers? And wouldn't you want to reduce large, stretching movements? That's the advantage of dvorak to me. My hands stay in the home row. They move very little, so the stress is smaller. My pinkies are used very little for important letters, which is good, because they're comparatively weak. My index and ring fingers are used the most, which is good because they're strong.

      I've paired that with a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard so the backspace and enter keys are actuated with my thumbs--again, using the strongest finger to do the most work.

      I've never been any faster with dvorak; if I wanted to be fast, I'd buy a chording keyboard. But my hands ARE less tired. Given that I'm a professional programmer, longevity is significantly more important than speed.

    13. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Have you a broken pinkie? 'ls' is really easy to enter so I'm not sure what you mean by 'annoying'.

      I looked at the layout of the Dvorak keyboard, and yeah, I'd call it annoying. The pinkie finger is the weakest of the five and you have to use it to hit two keys. Sure, it's doable, but, the Qwerty layout of simply using the ring fingers of each hand is much simpler. Unfortunately, neither keyboard was designed for typing computer commands. They were both designed for typewriters, which were used exclusively for word processing tasks.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    14. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 2

      aspell master list is not exactly a good way to count alternate hand use. You'd be better off using a word frequency table.
      In a pinch, comparing letter frequency (etoainshrdlu) by actual percentage against the layouts.
      btw, I always used the right hand for b because the index finger is closest to it. Removing that from your list drops the number to 1770 on my system.

      Personally though I wasn't thinking too much of alternating hands, but rather which fingers I'm using and whether they move up or down to type. Dvorak advocates recommend dvorak due to more stuff on the home row. For RSI I'd consider that a bad thing actually.
      BTW, to avoid RSI I also taught myself to use alternate hands for my mouse. At work I use my left hand, at home, my right.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    15. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Completely anecdotal, but in the past 6 months of using Dvorak, I have had no wrist pain whatsoever. And that is a more important outcome to me than the possibility of any slight speed gain.

    16. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      Personally I find the key to RSI is *repetitive*.
      When you move your fingers around more on the keyboard, the movements are more varied, and you get less repetitive movement.
      That prevents less injury overall.
      The only times I've ever had RSI twinges was when pushing the same keys (or keys that are very close to each other) over and over.
      Usually while gaming.

      Also, when using the mouse, and clicking the left mouse button over and over, or making the same small mouse movements. I avoided that by alternating mouse hands (right in the office, left at home).

      My typing speed w/ qwerty is 86wpm on http://www.typingtest.com/ Astronaut text (which is kind of a hard text)
      Actually, I got 67wpm on the Italian text, and that was after deduction for characters I couldn't type on my keyboard without using a Compose key :)

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    17. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by uigrad_2000 · · Score: 1

      alias l='ls -l'
      alias ll='ls -al'

      I rarely use ls without the -l option, so I haven't made an alias for it.

      If I had known of Colemak when I switched away from qwerty, I would have used it, but I don't regret my choice to learn dvorak at all.

      I am very glad, however, that I didn't learn vi until after I'd already made my keyboard layout change. I can still type qwerty when I need to, but if I have to use qwerty for command mode in vi, then I'm screwed.

      --
      Free unix account: freeshell.org
    18. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      As I said to Dixie_Flatline, one of the big arguments for Dvorak is keeping frequent letters on the home row.
      I find RSI is more about repeatedly making very similar hand movements. I've not had RSI symptoms typing on a Qwerty keyboard. Even for hours at a time. I *have* had RSI problems w/ video games where I repeatedly press keys that are very close to each other. I've also had it when repeatedly left clicking with the mouse or making the same small wrist motions, which is why I alternate mouse hands these days.

      I'm inclined to think that Dvorak would be mean more RSI precisely for the reason they advocate it - keeping common keys on the same row, preventing your fingers from moving about much.

      My typing speed is 86wpm on the Astronaut text on typingtest.com so I'm not inclined to try learning Dvorak since 1) It would slow me down on other people's keyboards 2) I fear potential RSI 3) My speed is fast enough for my purposes w/ Qwerty

      As for alternating hands more in Dvorak... Difficult to say. The analysis using aspell by the other commenter seems flawed to me since it treats b as a left hand key which seems unlikely for most people, and ignores letter frequency.
      out of etoain in etoainshrdlu, 3 are left hand, 3 are right hand in Qwerty.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    19. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      It depends on your injury. Some are caused by excessive friction of the tendon in its sheath, in which case minimizing the amount of movement will minimize the additional injury. Others are caused by excessive strain in a poor position or excessive time in that position, but if your point is that getting off the home row keys gets your hands out of an injurious position, I think it would be more effective to improve the positioning of your hands so that they're never in a position that causes harm in the first place.

      As for aspell not being a good list, look at the difference. It's a factor of 10. Aspell would have to be an horrifically bad list for my point to be invalidated. If you think you have a list that inverts the results, feel free to post it, I'd be interested to see its contents.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    20. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Hatta · · Score: 2

      That's just as likely to be due to you changing layouts than any inherent benefit of the layout. If you had grown up with Dvorak, gotten RSI, and switched to Qwerty, you might feel similar relief.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    21. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      So, I did a quick frequency chart perl script.
      For dvorak the right hand uses 57.7% of the letters
      For qwerty the left hand uses 57.6% of the letters
      So, I'd really call it a wash on alternating hands. However I'd still call moving the fingers around, beneficial.

      freq.pl ~/Docs/Books/Extra.Pop.Del.Mad.Crowds.txt
      e has a frequency of 12.9551424148774%
      t has a frequency of 9.22547295053484%
      a has a frequency of 7.74681148934826%
      o has a frequency of 7.49038997182291%
      i has a frequency of 6.90704642939971%
      n has a frequency of 6.86274283187054%
      s has a frequency of 6.44721361191435%
      h has a frequency of 6.28471572115085%
      r has a frequency of 6.22253658514034%
      d has a frequency of 4.41179076682208%
      l has a frequency of 3.7210398940412%
      c has a frequency of 2.87010262254182%
      u has a frequency of 2.83273350114766%
      f has a frequency of 2.59981215274648%
      m has a frequency of 2.57839232646281%
      p has a frequency of 1.97825194184594%
      w has a frequency of 1.97386010696044%
      g has a frequency of 1.78000297411976%
      y has a frequency of 1.65741684599992%
      b has a frequency of 1.44899731327575%
      v has a frequency of 0.986390705336388%
      k has a frequency of 0.507295454142695%
      x has a frequency of 0.216124506207512%
      j has a frequency of 0.147781391410341%
      q has a frequency of 0.103785992820506%
      z has a frequency of 0.0461527911651692%

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    22. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      Alternating hands means that two consecutive letters must be typed with two different hands. The letter frequency is basically meaningless for determining that, although to be fair my method of looking at how many words could be typed with a single hand is a rough approximation at best. My experience, the sheer factor of difference in the rough approximation, and "common" knowledge all support my claim that Dvorak has far more alternation in hand usage, so I haven't tried to make any sort of accurate count. If you really want to do that, generating a list of letter pairs for each layout that require two hands to type and then doing a frequency count on those pairs would give you a much more accurate result.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    23. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      So, I ran an adapted version of the script from my other post on a few texts...
      $ freq2.pl ~/Docs/bwulf10.txt
      QWERTY left hand set of qwertasdfgzxcv uses 58.2541631304434% of letters, by frequency
      Dvorak right hand set of fgcrldhtnsxbmwvz uses 59.8493774873726% of letters, by frequency

      $ freq2.pl ~/Docs/Books/Extra.Pop.Del.Mad.Crowds.txt
      QWERTY left hand set of qwertasdfgzxcv uses 57.5390468793702% of letters, by frequency
      Dvorak right hand set of fgcrldhtnsxbmwvz uses 57.6753478602903% of letters, by frequency

      $ freq2.pl ~/Docs/Books/Twain/wilson.txt
      QWERTY left hand set of qwertasdfgzxcv uses 56.3481896628414% of letters, by frequency
      Dvorak right hand set of fgcrldhtnsxbmwvz uses 57.6603505026243% of letters, by frequency

      So, overall, Dvorak uses right hand slightly more than Qwerty uses the left hand.
      However, I do feel moving the fingers off the home row is important for stretching them and avoiding RSI, so that should be considered as well. I'll do a version that considers how much each layout stays on the home row in a moment.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    24. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      $ freq3.pl ~/Docs/Books/Twain/wilson.txt
      QWERTY home row set of asdfghjkl uses 56.3481896628414% of letters, by frequency
      Dvorak home row set of aoeuidhtkns uses 57.6603505026243% of letters, by frequency

      $ freq3.pl ~/Docs/Books/Extra.Pop.Del.Mad.Crowds.txt
      QWERTY home row set of asdfghjkl uses 57.5390468793702% of letters, by frequency
      Dvorak home row set of aoeuidhtkns uses 57.6753478602903% of letters, by frequency

      $ freq3.pl ~/Docs/bwulf10.txt
      QWERTY home row set of asdfghjkl uses 58.2541631304434% of letters, by frequency
      Dvorak home row set of aoeuidhtkns uses 59.8493774873726% of letters, by frequency

      Again not a huge difference, but Dvorak stays on the home row a bit more. The difference isn't huge though.

      I'm going to do another one where I break it down by letters typed by each finger.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    25. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      I don't have a book in text form to frequency count, but here's some combos in handy paste-to-regex/parse-as-you-wish form:

      # Dvorak one-handed pairs:
      aa|ae|ai|aj|ak|ao|ap|aq|au|ax|ay|bb|bc|bd|bf|bg|bh|bl|bm|bn|br|bs|bt|bv|bw|bz|cb|cc|cd|cf|cg|ch|cl|cm|cn|cr|cs|ct|cv|cw|cz|db|dc|dd|df|dg|dh|dl|dm|dn|dr|ds|dt|dv|dw|dz|ea|ee|ei|ej|ek|eo|ep|eq|eu|ex|ey|fb|fc|fd|ff|fg|fh|fl|fm|fn|fr|fs|ft|fv|fw|fz|gb|gc|gd|gf|gg|gh|gl|gm|gn|gr|gs|gt|gv|gw|gz|hb|hc|hd|hf|hg|hh|hl|hm|hn|hr|hs|ht|hv|hw|hz|ia|ie|ii|ij|ik|io|ip|iq|iu|ix|iy|ja|je|ji|jj|jk|jo|jp|jq|ju|jx|jy|ka|ke|ki|kj|kk|ko|kp|kq|ku|kx|ky|lb|lc|ld|lf|lg|lh|ll|lm|ln|lr|ls|lt|lv|lw|lz|mb|mc|md|mf|mg|mh|ml|mm|mn|mr|ms|mt|mv|mw|mz|nb|nc|nd|nf|ng|nh|nl|nm|nn|nr|ns|nt|nv|nw|nz|oa|oe|oi|oj|ok|oo|op|oq|ou|ox|oy|pa|pe|pi|pj|pk|po|pp|pq|pu|px|py|qa|qe|qi|qj|qk|qo|qp|qq|qu|qx|qy|rb|rc|rd|rf|rg|rh|rl|rm|rn|rr|rs|rt|rv|rw|rz|sb|sc|sd|sf|sg|sh|sl|sm|sn|sr|ss|st|sv|sw|sz|tb|tc|td|tf|tg|th|tl|tm|tn|tr|ts|tt|tv|tw|tz|ua|ue|ui|uj|uk|uo|up|uq|uu|ux|uy|vb|vc|vd|vf|vg|vh|vl|vm|vn|vr|vs|vt|vv|vw|vz|wb|wc|wd|wf|wg|wh|wl|wm|wn|wr|ws|wt|wv|ww|wz|xa|xe|xi|xj|xk|xo|xp|xq|xu|xx|xy|ya|ye|yi|yj|yk|yo|yp|yq|yu|yx|yy|zb|zc|zd|zf|zg|zh|zl|zm|zn|zr|zs|zt|zv|zw|zz

      # Dvorak two-handed pairs:
      ab|ac|ad|af|ag|ah|al|am|an|ar|as|at|av|aw|az|eb|ec|ed|ef|eg|eh|el|em|en|er|es|et|ev|ew|ez|ib|ic|id|if|ig|ih|il|im|in|ir|is|it|iv|iw|iz|jb|jc|jd|jf|jg|jh|jl|jm|jn|jr|js|jt|jv|jw|jz|kb|kc|kd|kf|kg|kh|kl|km|kn|kr|ks|kt|kv|kw|kz|ob|oc|od|of|og|oh|ol|om|on|or|os|ot|ov|ow|oz|pb|pc|pd|pf|pg|ph|pl|pm|pn|pr|ps|pt|pv|pw|pz|qb|qc|qd|qf|qg|qh|ql|qm|qn|qr|qs|qt|qv|qw|qz|ub|uc|ud|uf|ug|uh|ul|um|un|ur|us|ut|uv|uw|uz|xb|xc|xd|xf|xg|xh|xl|xm|xn|xr|xs|xt|xv|xw|xz|yb|yc|yd|yf|yg|yh|yl|ym|yn|yr|ys|yt|yv|yw|yz

      # QWERTY one-hand pairs:
      aa|ab|ac|ad|ae|af|ag|aq|ar|as|at|av|aw|ax|az|ba|bb|bc|bd|be|bf|bg|bq|br|bs|bt|bv|bw|bx|bz|ca|cb|cc|cd|ce|cf|cg|cq|cr|cs|ct|cv|cw|cx|cz|da|db|dc|dd|de|df|dg|dq|dr|ds|dt|dv|dw|dx|dz|ea|eb|ec|ed|ee|ef|eg|eq|er|es|et|ev|ew|ex|ez|fa|fb|fc|fd|fe|ff|fg|fq|fr|fs|ft|fv|fw|fx|fz|hh|hi|hj|hk|hl|hm|hn|ho|hp|hu|hy|ih|ii|ij|ik|il|im|in|io|ip|iu|iy|jh|ji|jj|jk|jl|jm|jn|jo|jp|ju|jy|kh|ki|kj|kk|kl|km|kn|ko|kp|ku|ky|lh|li|lj|lk|ll|lm|ln|lo|lp|lu|ly|mh|mi|mj|mk|ml|mm|mn|mo|mp|mu|my|nh|ni|nj|nk|nl|nm|nn|no|np|nu|ny|oh|oi|oj|ok|ol|om|on|oo|op|ou|oy|ph|pi|pj|pk|pl|pm|pn|po|pp|pu|py|qa|qb|qc|qd|qe|qf|qg|qq|qr|qs|qt|qv|qw|qx|qz|ra|rb|rc|rd|re|rf|rg|rq|rr|rs|rt|rv|rw|rx|rz|sa|sb|sc|sd|se|sf|sg|sq|sr|ss|st|sv|sw|sx|sz|ta|tb|tc|td|te|tf|tg|tq|tr|ts|tt|tv|tw|tx|tz|uh|ui|uj|uk|ul|um|un|uo|up|uu|uy|va|vb|vc|vd|ve|vf|vg|vq|vr|vs|vt|vv|vw|vx|vz|wa|wb|wc|wd|we|wf|wg|wq|wr|ws|wt|wv|ww|wx|wz|xa|xb|xc|xd|xe|xf|xg|xq|xr|xs|xt|xv|xw|xx|xz|yh|yi|yj|yk|yl|ym|yn|yo|yp|yu|yy|za|zb|zc|zd|ze|zf|zg|zq|zr|zs|zt|zv|zw|zx|zz

      # QWERTY two-hand pairs:
      ah|ai|aj|ak|al|am|an|ao|ap|au|ay|bh|bi|bj|bk|bl|bm|bn|bo|bp|bu|by|ch|ci|cj|ck|cl|cm|cn|co|cp|cu|cy|dh|di|dj|dk|dl|dm|dn|do|dp|du|dy|eh|ei|ej|ek|el|em|en|eo|ep|eu|ey|fh|fi|fj|fk|fl|fm|fn|fo|fp|fu|fy|gh|gi|gj|gk|gl|gm|gn|go|gp|gu|gy|qh|qi|qj|qk|ql|qm|qn|qo|qp|qu|qy|rh|ri|rj|rk|rl|rm|rn|ro|rp|ru|ry|sh|si|sj|sk|sl|sm|sn|so|sp|su|sy|th|ti|tj|tk|tl|tm|tn|to|tp|tu|ty|vh|vi|vj|vk|vl|vm|vn|vo|vp|vu|vy|wh|wi|wj|wk|wl|wm|wn|wo|wp|wu|wy|xh|xi|xj|xk|xl|xm|xn|xo|xp|xu|xy|zh|zi|zj|zk|zl|zm|zn|zo|zp|zu|zy

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    26. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      I don't know that a reductionist argument works perfectly here, but ideally, what you want is to not move your fingers at all. No stress, no repetition.

      After that, I would expect (though I'm NOT a physiologist) that the smaller the movement, the better. That means you want to move the muscle as little as possible and use the least amount of force. I would expect a repetitive motion of stretching a finger to apply a force to be worse than to not stretch the finger and apply a force. Obviously, I can't help but move my fingers a bit and stretch them to type full words, and so I'm not carrying out precisely the same motion every single time, but every time I do move my fingers, it's very little.

      Part of that is down to the keyboard I use. It's scooped, so when I lift my fingers, the stretching is minimised.

      I used to have forearm pain after typing when I was in university and using qwerty. Dvorak helped a bit, and the keyboard helped more.

      Most importantly, people have really different configurations. I happen to have long, skinny fingers, and big palms. Someone with shorter, stockier fingers will have a different experience and a different optimal setup.

      To bring it back to texting, I think that the experience is more uniform just because there are fewer variables to consider in the length and strength of thumbs versus that of each finger and the whole hand. Dvorak wouldn't make for a good texting experience for the same reason it IS a good typing experience.

    27. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by camperdave · · Score: 1

      You've hit a nail on the head, even though it wasn't your intention. If we're going to revise keyboard layouts, we need one where you can keep one hand on the mouse and use the other for typing; a single handed keyboard in other words.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    28. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      The point is that for any significant body of text (i.e. typing over a period of a few paragraphs or even hours of typing)
      that the overall work done by each hand will average out. At that point you need to consider letter distribution.
      It hardly matters that you typed 2 or 3 letters with one hand in a few split seconds if you then type 2 or 3 letters with the other hand.
      Over the course of hours, letter frequency is the key parameter.

      It is pretty meaningless to consider letter pairs, when you spend only a fraction of a second on any given letter.
      Given I can type 86 words per minute on complex bodies of text (and much faster on text like this) I can type an average of 7 letters in a single second. Requiring alternating every other letter is just silly...

      Ok, as promised, the last analysis. Stress per finger, each layout. Keep in mind this is the keys I reflexively push, per finger. Other people might vary. For example, I always use my index finger for c. Others might use their middle, but I find reaching down with the middle finger, tiring on the keyboard...

      Now, you might look at this distribution and say that it shows a move even distribution for Dvorak.
      But I see it pretty differently. Pinkies are the fingers I get the most tired with. Dvorak makes me use my pinkies almost 19% of the time.
      Ring fingers are the ones that have the most strength for me, and the ones I'm the most comfortable typing with. Qwerty uses them almost 45% of the time versus 34% for Dvorak. Now, you might find that an advantage personally, but I'm going to avoid it. Not to mention of course the fact that with almost all the keyboards in the world using Qwerty, there's already a cost to switching.

      QWERTY 1 left pinkie finger types 7.78408575925117% of the time
      QWERTY 2 left ring finger types 9.32409383419988% of the time
      QWERTY 3 left middle finger types 18.0112554897292% of the time
      QWERTY 4 left index finger types 23.176750739517% of the time
      QWERTY 5 right index finger types 21.4538203571105% of the time
      QWERTY 6 right middle finger types 6.67336832477773% of the time
      QWERTY 7 right ring finger types 12.4659080609411% of the time
      QWERTY 8 right pinkie finger types 1.13214076777931% of the time
      Dvorak 1 left pinkie finger types 7.67120127221641% of the time
      Dvorak 2 left ring finger types 7.82610845150499% of the time
      Dvorak 3 left middle finger types 12.9916037012928% of the time
      Dvorak 4 left index finger types 11.6831324209191% of the time
      Dvorak 5 right index finger types 22.1410149716141% of the time
      Dvorak 6 right middle finger types 10.1439483203283% of the time
      Dvorak 7 right ring finger types 13.6441913927639% of the time
      Dvorak 8 right pinkie finger types 11.0552639601856% of the time

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    29. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1661

      All the books you like (use plain text format).

      See my other more extensive post as to why considering pairs is pretty flawed.
      If you feel it has some validity for your tping speed, feel free to consider it. In the other post I examine the distribution by finger and why Dvorak makes no sense for me personally, with my typing style and speed.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    30. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      Doesn't really work like that in my experience.
      Repetitive Stress Injury has as the key variable, repetitive.
      If I'm playing a first person shooter and my use of the keyboard is basically limited to pressing two or 3 keys over and over, the exact same motion, I'm twitching the exact same muscles, moving my tendons the exact same distance, keeping my wrist in the exact same position.
      It is murder on my hands, and I notice.

      I had RSI in the past and changing my habits (cutting back on gaming, changing the mouse thing) made a huge difference. Ten years ago I was afraid I wouldn't be able to continue my job. These days, I'll type for hours at a stretch without even a twinge.

      Another issue w/ Dvorak I noticed in the frequency analysis I was doing on the other thread is it makes me use my weaker fingers more.
      http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2970657&cid=40615879

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    31. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by avandesande · · Score: 1

      I don't like to sit in one position all day, I like to get up walk around and change my position in the chair frequently. In fact, sitting in one position too long can increase your risk stroke.

      I can't think of any case physiologically where no movement is preferable unless you are injured.

       

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    32. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by hankwang · · Score: 1

      I'm inclined to think that Dvorak would be mean more RSI

      And I decided to switch to Dvorak because I had severe RSI (pain in the forearms and hands, couldn't use a keyboard for more than one minute at a time for several weeks and needed half a year to recover fully) and never had such serious problems again. That said, I also changed my posture, adjusted the armrests, and moved the Ctrl to the caps-lock position. Nowadays, if I have to operate a computer for as little as an hour on a desk that is 5 cm too high, my shoulders hurt like crazy. With dvorak I do get problems with my pinky finger after long sessions involving a lot of \{} characters.

      Well, anecdote versus anecdote.

      86wpm on the Astronaut text

      86 wpm here too, and 93 for Aesop. Both Dvorak. Astronauts on Qwerty is 55 wpm (lots of time wasted correcting typos), but I rarely use Qwerty these days (mostly on my phone).

    33. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      Another reason you might have problems w/ your pinkies in Dvorak is:
      http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2970657&cid=40615879

      I'm inclined to think the other things you changed were the majority of it. Not to mention slowing down to learn a new layout.

      Nonetheless, I'm relieved you got things fixed. RSI was pretty scary for me. I hadn't thought about just how helpless I'd be, and unable to do my job.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    34. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by hankwang · · Score: 1
      Better use a real corpus rather than an arbitrary text from your Books directory, e.g. http://www.wordfrequency.info/files/entriesWithoutCollocates.txt . I ran some perl scripts over them, with the following results (all weighted by word frequency), single-handed words and words with alternating 4-letter sequences:

      dvorak-LRLR 16.3%
      dvorak-RLRL 27.9%
      dvorak-left 7.2%
      dvorak-right 0.0%
      qwerty-LRLR 13.6%
      qwerty-RLRL 8.3%
      qwerty-left 5.0%
      qwerty-right 7.8%

      Note: the dvorak-"X" and the qwerty-"B" keys are assigned to the left hand. Clearly, with Dvorak you get about 40% fewer single-hand words and twice as many words with alternating sequences.

      You would really want to define some merit function that takes into account the cost of moving fingers from the home row and jumping (top row to bottom row), repeated letters, strength of the fingers, and so on. I'm sure someone else has done that already, though. And here in this discussion we won't be able to agree on the merit function anyway.

    35. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      BTW, I don't know if you have an Android phone or not, but there are alternate keyboard layouts, there is probably a dvorak one.
      The Hacker's Keyboard is a nice qwerty keyboard that is great on tablets or whatever, if you are connecting to like a tmux session from your android device.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    36. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1
      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    37. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is, every single test that has been posted in this thread either leans overwhelmingly toward Dvorak, or is a complete wash. Which is what you'd expect--as far as I know, neither minimizing travel distance nor maximizing hand alternation was a design goal for QWERTY, whereas both were for Dvorak. I really don't understand why there's even a debate on the subject of which requires less movement.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    38. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      Well, I got two answers to this post: yours, and avandesande. They make the good point that complete immobility is probably not what we're looking for; that's usually bad for body parts. Fair enough.

      And while I agree that the 'repetitive' part of the stress injury pertinent, it's not really as simple as that. Walking is repetitive, but we're built to walk. There's a certain range of motion that's really good for us. We don't walk enough as a culture anymore, and while you'll eventually wear down the moving parts, it's generally better for you to walk than not to walk.

      I think similarly with typing, there's a range of motion that's probably not that bad for you. I use a trackball, and click with my thumb. I've done a lot of clicking, and I've never had an issue. But there are a lot of factors at play: the angle that I have to hold my finger at, the force, how much rest the finger gets when it's not clicking, etc. That's going to be true of all your fingers. You want to move them, but you want the range of motion to work with your particular configuration. With long arms and big hands, my ideal range of motion is going to be different than yours.

      Also keep in mind that while playing a game like an FPS, you're doing things a bit differently than if you're typing a paper. I wager there's a difference in how hard you're pressing keys down. You're probably also holding keys down for longer; typing words is about pressing and releasing, FPS gaming is about pressing and holding. It could very well be the HOLD that's causing stress, not the PRESS.

      Maybe we can agree that there aren't enough options (or that people aren't good about taking the wide range of options that are available) to reduce stress on themselves. To a certain extent, I'm sure that my improvement has a psychological aspect (which shouldn't be ignored, actually; that placebo effect might be very powerful) and the relative stress between qwerty and dvorak on our hands is within a few percent one way or another. I've probably done more to make my life better by just paying attention to the keyboard layout that I have, switching keyboards and stopping with the mouse (which was a HUGE stress on my arm; to this day, I can only use a mouse about 15 minutes without wrist pain).

    39. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's fair. My best friend is a nurse, and she says the single best thing for a person to do--if they can--is get up and walk. Even when she was working in the cardiac ward with people just out of heart surgery, they tried to get them to be up and walking within a week. It's just good to make the blood flow.

    40. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by hankwang · · Score: 1

      Android phone or not, but there are alternate keyboard layouts, there is probably a dvorak one.

      Yes, Android (htc flavor), but I don't see the advantage of Dvorak when I type using only my right index finger. I tried it once, but with that implementation, I lost word prediction and letters with diacritical marks got much harder or even impossible to enter.

    41. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/single-hand-keyboards.html

    42. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meh. I do more typing of commands, i.e. not words, than anything anyway... ls -lah, grep -i, cd /whatever/and/then/some....
      Besides, there are still people who don't know how to type very well so they have to hunt and peck no matter what. And kids today may never even really need to use a keyboard.. they'll all be killed in a texting-while-driving accident before they're 20 anyway.

    43. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      Eh. I had the same problem with rapid-key press games (button mashers).

      And walking involves a large range of motion. Pressing the exact same, or close to it, key with your pinky (which dvorak worsens with its greater pinky use), is a subtle small motion that we aren't really evolved to do for 8 hours a day.

      As for the mouse. That sucks. Perhaps you should try what I do and use the other hand. Of course, I switched to alternating before the damage got too bad. You might no longer be able to do it.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    44. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 1

      Ah. I do 8 finger typing (6 fingers, both thumbs) in landscape mode on a Galaxy Note (might be easier in the next one which is supposed to be a tiny bit larger). Qwerty of course.

      On a 7" tablet I can do slightly cramped 10 finger, and of course normal typing on a full tablet.

      Anything smaller than the Note though, yeah, forget it.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
    45. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      I swapped from Qwerty to Dvorak to Colemak. I find Colemak to be a bit less stressful than Dvorak for long typing sessions, and much better than Qwerty. The QWerty-like placement of the wqazxcv keys also helps a lot for using a modern computer.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    46. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      QWERTY is clearly better with those stats! 2192 words typable with your left hand whilst your right is busy. If you used a Dvorak layout you would need both hands on the keyboard pretty much all the time totally ruining your ability to masturbate at the computer.

    47. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      I thought screen-widening tricks were all trapped and ignored by Slashdot. Obviously they missed one.

      Not that you deliberately did that, but that's the effect.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    48. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 1

      <ecode> is a relatively new tag. To their credit, it doesn't even widen the rest of my post, and I'd rather code be allowed to scroll anyway. Now if we could only get them to allow unicode so we can Zalgo up the place.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    49. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by dexotaku · · Score: 1

      I've been using the Dvorak-RH [right hand] layout since the mid-1990s. I go back and forth between it on my own computer and QWERTY everywhere else, and to be honest, I don't note a huge difference in speed, even typing with only one hand 100% of the time.

      What I do notice is that the one-hand layout VASTLY reduces finger/tendon strain. Not having to constantly spread my fingers great distances across the keyboard saves a great deal of pain. Typing on QWERTY for any real length of time hurts a lot.

    50. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by dexotaku · · Score: 1

      Replying to self to note:

      Nerve damage to my left arm makes using it for either mouse or keyboard basically impossible. I can use a trackball with it, but have very little pointer precision and can't click the buttons. Point being: there are valid reasons for not wanting to alternate between keyboard/mouse frequently [which makes using e.g. Apple computers where they tend to force you to use mouse clicks by simply not having keyboard shortcuts for a lot of things a real PITA].

    51. Re:Amazing how he has the only solution! by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      you can have the same strain-relieving benefits by using a properly ergonomic QWERTY

  4. First post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Thanks Dextr!

    1. Re:First post by 228e2 · · Score: 1

      Yea, you may want to revert to the QWERTY :p

      --
      Since when does being a Socialist mean 'someone who has a different opinion than me'?
  5. Betteridge's Law of Headlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No.

    1. Re:Betteridge's Law of Headlines by HyperQuantum · · Score: 1

      Come on, people! Can't we stop overusing this new meme? It's not funny anymore.

      (to any cleverheads wanting to reply with "No": this post is not a headline, so your precious Law does not apply here)

      --
      I am not really here right now.
    2. Re:Betteridge's Law of Headlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come on, people! Can't we stop overusing this new meme? It's not funny anymore.

      (to any cleverheads wanting to reply with "No": this post is not a headline, so your precious Law does not apply here)

      No.

      The law may not apply, but the answer still does. WTF do you think a meme is?

      Oh, and please don't use words like "cleverheads".

  6. cold dead hands! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You can have my query when you take it from my cold dead hands!

    1. Re:cold dead hands! by jbeaupre · · Score: 3, Funny

      You can have my query when you take it from my cold dead hands!

      But how do you feel about your keyboard?

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    2. Re:cold dead hands! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dammit....

  7. Inertia by zrbyte · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It didn't change at the transition to the PC from typewriters and it's not going to change now (in any significant way).

    1. Re:Inertia by JWSmythe · · Score: 5, Informative

          It may change in time, but just because someone invents a better keyboard layout, or a more innovative way to type, doesn't mean it will meet common acceptance.

          It would have made sense if people adopted the abcdef keyboard (alphabetical), but as most devices are qwerty (or whatever your region uses), they'll remain. People aren't going to flock to buying new keyboards, for home and work, and swap out their cell phones with keypads for newer ones.

          Even the shift from regular keyboards to ergonomic never happened, because it was difficult for people to switch back and forth quickly. I got used to it, switching when I'd get on a client's computer. A lot of people had problems trying. If they really stuck with it, they'd buy new keyboards for their home and office, usually out of pocket for the employer.

          The biggest migration of keyboard style I can think of is from the old mechanical typewriters, which didn't have the zero or one keys (redundant for "o" and "l") That was an obvious one, since the newer mechanical typewriters did have the full set of numbers, and distinguishing marks on the numerals.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    2. Re:Inertia by fearofcarpet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I learned to type on a typewriter. Now I use this keyboard at work (I do a lot of writing for my job). Since there are no labels on the keys, I can see the wear patterns and they are concentrated around the home row (and space bar) exactly as intended. I suppose the home row makes no sense on virtual keyboards, but then again virtual keyboards make no sense, which is why there are a zillion "swipe" and "predictive" keyboards on the Android market... so, yah, as you say, interta; I already have to deal with f***ing French keyboards, why would I want to complicate my life even more by adding another non-QWERTY keyboard to the mix?

      --
      Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
    3. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I generally have way more wear on the top row (particularly the left site with E, R, and T) than on most of the home row.

      I mean, it's not that big a deal; like the old joke goes, when your programmers are saying "hey, I'm almost up to my old typing speed in Dvorak!" it means they don't have enough work to do. But you've got a weird letter distribution if you're getting more wear on F and J than on E.

    4. Re:Inertia by Dogtanian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It would have made sense if people adopted the abcdef keyboard (alphabetical)

      Why? Just because it's the most obvious layout, doesn't mean it's the optimal one for typing. At most it's going to make it slightly easier for complete beginners to find keys before they've learned where they are.

      I'm not claiming that QWERTY is the best layout for typing- in fact, it's generally accepted that it almost certainly isn't.

      But as you say, there have been countless attempts to do alternate layouts, and few have gained much traction. If we're talking about mobile devices (where, after all, people learned to "type" on a non-QWERTY 12-digit keyboard (*)) perhaps sticking with a full keyboard- albeit with different layout- isn't thinking far enough (**), and we should be considering something like Microwriter- which first appeared 30 years ago!

      (*) And showed no inclination do use that on a computer
      (**) I was going to say "not thinking far enough outside the box" but I really loathe that stupid cliche even though I can't think of anything better. Always found it ironic that "thinking outside the box" is such a cliched, unoriginal, unimaginative, corporate, stuck inside the damn box phrase(!!)

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    5. Re:Inertia by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      If you want the Microwriter, I think there is something called CyKey that is pretty much the same thing, I looked on their site and although the site hadn't been updated for a few years it appears you still can order a CyKey with a USB connection for around $100.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    6. Re:Inertia by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No kidding. Dextr is just alphabetic with the vowels in a column. It's stupid. A Qwerty style keyboard in a Dvorak layout (slide-out wide keyboard) would actually work great on a phone--because your thumbs would alternate, just like you alternate hands on Dvorak. Of course that's biased to English, but the principle stands: give me a reason to use a different layout, don't just throw something stupid but pretty in front of me and claim the old thing is outdated and the new hotness is new. We know it's new. Getting herpes would also be a refreshing change, but I think I'm better off with the mundane life of being STD free.

    7. Re:Inertia by yahwotqa · · Score: 2

      Maybe he's writing more about beautiful things like fjords, and less about stroking his e-peen.

    8. Re:Inertia by jawtheshark · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I already have to deal with f***ing French keyboards

      You think that's bad? I cope on a daily basis with Belgian, French, German, Swiss, US and UK keyboards. Sure some of those are only slight variations, but believe me, it ain't fun.

      My opinion: everone migrates to US-International and we're done with it.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    9. Re:Inertia by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Getting herpes would also be a refreshing change, but I think I'm better off with the mundane life of being STD free.

      Personally, I don't think I'd describe contracting an STD as refreshing. It would be a change, but not a refreshing one in my opinion.

    10. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Get my country to change measurements from feet and inches to meters, change from Fahrenheit to Celsius, etc. then we can talk about changing keyboards...

    11. Re:Inertia by rbrausse · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It would have made sense if people adopted the abcdef keyboard (alphabetical)

      Douglas Adams answered this one many years ago:

      The principle behind the decision to have an alphabetical keyboard is based on a misunderstanding. I believe that the idea is this: not everybody knows qwerty (it's an odd feeling actually typing qwerty as a word. Try it and you'll see what I mean) but everybody knows the alphabet. This true but irrelevant. People know the alphabet as a one dimensional string, not as a two-dimensional array, so you're going to have to hunt and peck anyway.

    12. Re:Inertia by jampola · · Score: 1

      Totally off-topic but I recently "acquired" a Das Keyboard and it it absolutely rules! Mind you I got the "clicky" one and my wife hates me!

      On-topic, time to buy up qwerty keyboards just in-case the general populations is stupider than I though! (you think I'm kidding, right??)

    13. Re:Inertia by Lord+Lode · · Score: 1

      Thanks for quoting the relevant part of the article here, because I was absolutely unable to read the article. First it's about sloths, then about leaning against a wall, then again about leaning against a wall, then about a macbook? I was unable to follow what this guy was saying and could not make sense out of it, so gave up after a few paragraphs. Has the internet really lowered my attention span that much? I used to be a good reader :(

    14. Re:Inertia by Lord+Lode · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a Belgian, I abandoned azerty. Qwerty is indeed better for programming. And azerty is for the French language. The Dutch language, spoken by most Belgians, has absolutely no need for a q in the center row. I really don't understand how azerty ever ended up being used in Flanders.

    15. Re:Inertia by findoutmoretoday · · Score: 2

      The swiss keyboard is a nice compromise, it allows to write german and french.

    16. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think that's a fair assessment.

      For one, I would happily switch from QWERTY to something better. But as I live in the U.S, it's going to have to be a better value proposition than the conversion from Imperial to Metric units, which still isn't good enuf.

    17. Re:Inertia by rbrausse · · Score: 1

      Has the internet really lowered my attention span that much? I used to be a good reader :(

      could be related to the medium: I don't like to read longer texts (say, more than one screen) on a monitor. Electronic documents are great for skimming/searching (like documentation or handbooks) but for short stories like this one paper wins*. [though I don't own a pad or specialised ebook reader, those may be game-changers]

      *) and everything else I read for fun

    18. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And that's exactly what I have done.
      I'm using english, lithuanian and russian layouts on a daily basis.
      The only way to cope with all of them is to use the same layout everywhere.
      English is an US winkeys layout with slight modifications for the € sing on AltGr+E

      Lithuanian is the same US winkeys layout with the same € mapped to AltGr+E. The lithuanian letters are in the right place and the numbers are accessible thru AltGr+number. ( In lithuanian layout, the top most number bar is used for extra letters )

      Russian is a phonetic variant of US winkeys with slight modification for some extra letters in the russian alphabet (spells out like [ yazherty ] ) and the same € mapped to AltGr+E

      In that manner I get a QWERTY layout in every language I type.

      PS: In linux it's easy to add extra layouts or roll out your own, just look around in /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols ( the location depends on your distro). On Mac there's ukelele http://scripts.sil.org/ukelele

    19. Re:Inertia by somersault · · Score: 4, Funny

      Thankyou for your valuable insights.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    20. Re:Inertia by Kergan · · Score: 2

          It may change in time, but just because someone invents a better keyboard layout, or a more innovative way to type, doesn't mean it will meet common acceptance.

      Like text to speech, aka no typing at all.

      (Now, imagine yourself dictating your code to your computer...)

    21. Re:Inertia by bandy · · Score: 1

      Just tell your computer it's a US keyboard and touch-type. You can touch-type, can't you?

      --
      "You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
    22. Re:Inertia by sentientbeing · · Score: 4, Funny

      Stupid sexy Flanders

      --

      ------
      beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his mind he dreams himself your master
    23. Re:Inertia by Phisbut · · Score: 3, Informative

      As a Belgian, I abandoned azerty. Qwerty is indeed better for programming. And azerty is for the French language. The Dutch language, spoken by most Belgians, has absolutely no need for a q in the center row. I really don't understand how azerty ever ended up being used in Flanders.

      As a French Canadian, I use a QWERTY keyboard since that's the north-american standard. It's probably because of the habit, but the few times I've had to use AZERTY, even to type French text, I absolutely hated it and I can't understand its logic. I can't imagine what it would be like to program with that.

      --
      After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
      - The Tao of Programming
    24. Re:Inertia by gstrickler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And putting the vowels in a column will make it difficult to adapt something like Swype to the layout, because it makes a problem Swype has even worse. Suppose you want to type "pit". Using Swype on a qwerty layout, you have to be careful with stopping on the i, because o and u are right next to it, and pot and put are also valid words. With all the vowels in a column, if you're a bit too high, you get "pet", too low = "pot", significantly too high = "pat" and significantly too low = "put". Five valid words distinguished solely by the vertical position of the vowel. There are thousands of other examples. Swype with qwerty has that issue with u, i, & o, (& y) this layout extends the problem to all 5 vowels.

      Another problem, an extra two rows of keys on many mobile devices presents a space problem. Even on touchscreen devices, the 4 row layout (3 qwerty + space, shift, etc.) used by Android and iOS takes up a lot of screen space already, adding two more rows means you either make the rows shorter (aggravating the problem above), use up too much screen height, or move the space, shift, enter, etc to the sides of the layout. Either way, you compromise usability even more.

      Alphabetic ordered keyboards may initially be faster for those unfamiliar with qwerty, but they're not faster for for anyone experienced with qwerty, even for two-finger typists. My in-dash GPS/nav system uses an alphabetic layout, and it's definitely slower for me than qwerty would be. Of course, as slow as that nav system is to respond, qwerty wouldn't actually be faster, bit it would require less searching and therefore be less distracting and frustrating. The alphabet is useful for ordering/filing, but it bears no relationship to letter frequency or digraph/trigraph patterns, so it doesn't help with typing words.

      Since dvorak, colemak, and other optimized layouts haven't really caught on, I'm afraid we'll be living with qwerty and it's international variants for a long time.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
    25. Re:Inertia by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      No, I can't touch type[*], but that's not the problem. The problem is that /others/ use these layouts and whenever I need to use their computer, I get it wrong. I can switch between all these layouts: I just need approximately 20 minutes of time to adapt, during which I make typo after typo.

      [*] I can type without looking at the keyboard, but I don't do proper touch-typing as a secretary would have learned. Do note that those who did learn touch typing on a certain layout, have the hardest time to switch. My sister can't use anything except the Swiss variant, because she does touch-type and it's the layout she learned. If she needs to switch, she's slower than me while typing.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    26. Re:Inertia by camperdave · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe the method by which one contracts an STD is the refreshing change, not the disease itself.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    27. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't type with my thumbs. After about 2 minutes of it it just hurts too much. I use MobileWrite for handwriting recognition on my phone. It even emulates Graffiti versions 1 and 2 for former Palm users.

    28. Re:Inertia by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 1

      My pet hate has always been that you can't make OSX use a british keyboard layout. You can change it to 'UK keyboard' but it isn't actually a UK layout so if you use a non-apple keyboard keys are in the wrong place.

    29. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes! This so much, also pressing shift to get to numbers and 'alt gr' for [] and {} is beyond stupid.

      T.

    30. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You've obviously never read a Douglas Adams book, right?

    31. Re:Inertia by camperdave · · Score: 2

      No kidding. Dextr is just alphabetic with the vowels in a column. It's stupid.

      Actually, it's worse than stupid because the Z key is shoved between the H and the I keys, instead of being at the bottom right corner where you'd expect it to be.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    32. Re:Inertia by jawtheshark · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Hey, I used to be a Belgian... I was born in Antwerp. My native language is Flemish. However, isn't saying "The Dutch language, spoken by most Belgians" is quite a bit misleading? Now, there may be more Flemish people than Walloon people, but saying "most Belgians" is really an exaggeration.

      Furthermore, to answer your question why "azerty" is the Belgian keyboard, you have to simply look at your own history. When keyboards got in widespread use, Flanders wasn't the economic powerhouse of Belgium. Back then, it was Wallony with it's coal mines. French was the most important language and was used in business as well as by the bourgeoisie. Sure, now Wallony is the poorer part and Flanders the richer part, but that wasn't always so.

      Funnily enough, this is exactly on topic because it's pure history and inertia that makes "azerty" the Belgian layout.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    33. Re:Inertia by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      It indeed is. I admit, it's the one I use myself most of the time for exactly that reason. Alas, due to the size of my country, both the German and Belgian/French variants are very very common and working for a multinational company, the US and UK versions pop up often enough. From what I gather, the government has opted to go for Swiss, while private companies usually go Belgian.

      Getting a new PC here online is next to impossible because we have to either go over the German, Belgian or French channels. If we do so, we never get the choice of the Swiss variant (which is indeed the best locally seen). You can't order in Switserland because the shipping is insane and the currency doesn't match. Getting the Swiss keyboard from Apple was hell (Basically, I ordered with US keyboard, and bought a second one with CH layout because they couldn't give me a customized iMac with a keyboard of my choice. Yeah you read that right: customize your Mac or your keyboard, not both). Same thing with my latest Dell laptop (Actually, I got three identical models.). Got it with Azerty, had to call over 10 times to get a replacement laptop keyboards, even though I did specify it at order time, repeatedly... I even heard stuff like "That model doesn't exist with CH keyboard" and then I duly pointed them to Dell.ch.

      Basically, it's a nightmare and it isn't solvable...

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    34. Re:Inertia by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      I already have to deal with f***ing French keyboards
      Ouch, you just reminded me of when I had to go to France for a client, and the keyboard I had to use over there was French AND most of the letters were worn off of the keyboard.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    35. Re:Inertia by rossdee · · Score: 2

      "change from Fahrenheit to Celsius"

      Why not go all the way and change to Kelvin

    36. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, just try to type this with a qwerty keyboard:
      "L'hétérogénéité des graphèmes est le miel de l'écriture et bénis soient nos ancêtres à qui il plût d'orner nos caractères d'étranges diacritiques élancées qui confèrent à nos lettres cet aspect râcé et grâcieux là où d'autres langues se résignent à une fâdeur bien morne à mon goût."

      Shall we discuss Asian languages now?

    37. Re:Inertia by MadKeithV · · Score: 2

      Now, there may be more Flemish people than Walloon people, but saying "most Belgians" is really an exaggeration.

      Why in the name of all that's logical would "most belgians" be an exaggeration? 60% of Belgium speaks dutch.. That's "most Belgians", mathematically.

    38. Re:Inertia by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      Seriously? 40% is peanuts? Because that's exactly what the original statement implies. Pick 10 Belgians at random over the territory and odds are four won't understand you when you talk Flemish to them. I find that quite a significant minority. That's one of the reasons I'm glad I'm not Belgian any more. This whole language issue... It's fucked up and nobody wants to relax their position. Forced bilingualism for everyone, and be done with it.

      Also note the blatant ignorance of their own history.... It's an endemic sign of how rotten Belgium is. Heck, I think the Flemish know their history and simply want payback from the Walloons. (Oh, and yes, I used to be Flemish... I still think that way.)

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    39. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. Ergonomic keyboards were supposed to have taken over as the standard by now. In my real world experience it is more like 1 in 10,000.

    40. Re:Inertia by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      I can, and I have... Look up how the US-International keyboard works.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    41. Re:Inertia by Xyverz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've been using Dvorak on the PC for over 10 years now. Until I got my Android phone, all my texting has been done in QWERTY. On my new phone, I decided to try out Dvorak for a bit and I found something horrifying: dvorak on the phone is not as easy as using qwerty.

    42. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that /others/ use these layouts and whenever I need to use their computer, I get it wrong.

      It's trivial (2 or 3 clicks or some command like setxkbmap) to change the keyboard layout on any operating system / gui.

      Adapting to whatever layout is present is a waste of time: even the difference between the UK and US keyboards (both qwerty) may get on your nerves with its swapped 'at' and 'quote' keys and the misplaced backslash/pipe and tilde.

      Better learn touch-typing: I don't think the best hunt-n-pecker can match an average touch-typist.

      (just think: who will have an easier time learning guitar: an accordion player or a burger-flipper?).

    43. Re:Inertia by StuckInSyrup · · Score: 1

      It would be refreshing in the meaning that to contract a STD you usually have to have sex. That would probably be the refreshing part. The STD less so.

      --
      Ni.
    44. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1 on hating the French keyboard.

      You show me the French using more semicolons than commas and I'll explain to you how their choices make any goddamn sense.

    45. Re:Inertia by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Funny

      it's an odd feeling actually typing qwerty as a word. Try it and you'll see what I mean

      The worst is when you actually type it out as 'querty' :/

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    46. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who owns the das keyboard, I'm quite surprised your coworkers haven't murdered you yet.

    47. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, I'm impressed. How did you post using a typewriter? :D

    48. Re:Inertia by MickLinux · · Score: 1
      Sveikas!

      Kas as noriu, yra rasyti su viena koja... oh wait, let me switch back into English. Having lived in Silute, I like to speak and even think, sometimes, in Lithuanian.

      What I want, is something a little different. Imagine mapping a numeric keypad onto a graphical touchscreen (like a smart phone). Now, up the left side is a scroll bar with a number of different options: Letters, alternate language letters, programming, Alt, shift, ctrl, Num, Alpha, Caps, symbol, math, etc... are all there. Single click to use, Double click to lock, triple-click to reset.

      Now, the 20 keypad keys each have a predictive function for "tap", but a specific fixed value for tap-and-slide. You can tap-and-slide up, down, up and to side, down-and-to-side.

      Now, when typing, your keyboard shows you superimposed over any other imagery, the fixed keys to the edge of each key location, and the predictive key in the middle. The predictive function, meanwhile, tries to keep your most common keystroke pattern in the form of left-mid-right-mid-left-mid-right-mid, and so on.

      Like any other keyboard, it is pre-trained on text. That way, the predictive functions don't change much. If you have a new function key, you simply have to come up with a training text, add the function key, and train it.

      --
      Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
    49. Re:Inertia by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Your opinion has been noted and logged. Thanks for sharing.

      --
      No sig today...
    50. Re:Inertia by Interfacer · · Score: 1

      Well, nothing much has changed since you left, whenever that was. Each group is still convinced they are the real Belgians, and that the other ones are inferior. I don't know how up to date you are on Belgian politics, but in case you aren't: the previous government formation lasted well over a year before there was a coalition.

      Anything involving language is not likely to change any time soon.

    51. Re:Inertia by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Sure some of those are only slight variations, but believe me, it ain't fun.

      The slight variations are worse than the big ones.

      --
      No sig today...
    52. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because Kelvin is targeted at scientific purposes rather than every-day concerns. The idea behind a temperature scale is to make certain important values meaningful. Kelvin makes 0 equal the minimum possible temperature. Celsius makes it the freezing point for water. Only one of these is useful for knowing whether you need to slow down on your drive to work.

    53. Re:Inertia by Solandri · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Since dvorak, colemak, and other optimized layouts haven't really caught on, I'm afraid we'll be living with qwerty and it's international variants for a long time.

      I wouldn't be so sure.

      1. Replace keycap letters with e-ink.
      2. Allow users to remap keys to their liking.
      3. Use whatever layout you want, qwerty, dvorak, abcdef, or whatever this new one is.

      The thing that's been keeping qwerty alive is everyone having to learn it. Even if you use dvorak, you still have to learn qwerty because you'll frequently sit down at a physical qwerty keyboard. With the move to virtual keyboards and the development of technology which would allow easy reconfiguration of a physical keyboard (including the letter markings), a lot of that inertia disappears.

      It's like I say about GUIs - rather than trying to force everyone into a menu model or a ribbon model, include both. The people who like menus can use the menus, the people who like the ribbon can use the ribbon, and if a menu-user sits at a ribbon-user's computer (or vice versa), a single configuration option should let you switch between the two. We should be adapting computers to match the way we (as individuals) like to work, not expecting individuals to adapt how they work to match one monolithic way all computers work.

    54. Re:Inertia by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Why not go all the way and change to Kelvin

      With Kelvin most "normal human" temperatures would need three digits instead of two. That might annoy the airconditioner/heater manufacturers.

      --
    55. Re:Inertia by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      I tried that once. It was interesting. Well, interesting, and a miserable failure. :)

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    56. Re:Inertia by nschubach · · Score: 1

      I think it does. The Internet and hyper-linking is changing the way we consume information in just about every field. I recently ran across this video (ironically playing right into what he's stating) that describes the same phenomenon with scientific publication: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHuC5yZeHYQ

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    57. Re:Inertia by billstewart · · Score: 1

      Actually, the odds are that 10 of them won't understand me if I talk Flemish to them, because I'm an American :-) (To me, Flemish is roughly Dutch, which is badly spelled German, and the fact that I spell German badly doesn't mean that my LOLdeutsch is comprehensible to anybody, even if it were possible for non-Dutch-speakers to get the vowels right.) And my French is worse, once you get past questions about where the train station is.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    58. Re:Inertia by houghi · · Score: 1

      I live in Belgium and I am not interested what the majority speaks and would not let a technical discussion be influenced by politics. I leave that for the Mericans.

      That said, the reason I went to qwerty was because when you program, it makes much more sense. Try typing a backtick on azerty. Or slashes. Or many other things you need in program writing or scripting. You even need to know the difference between the left and the right ALT key.

      ? is for searching up, / is for searching down. Unless you use a qwerty and you see they are on the same key, you would have no idea why. ZZ to close vi is not logical if you do not realise it is next to the shift key that you need to type Z and not z.

      So for me the layout of the non-letters is more important then it is to easily type azerty or qwerty.

      ZZ

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    59. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not needed anymore.
      "Siri, get me a blowjob no more than 3 miles from here."

    60. Re:Inertia by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      It would have made sense if people adopted the abcdef keyboard (alphabetical)

      Douglas Adams answered this one many years ago:

      The principle behind the decision to have an alphabetical keyboard is based on a misunderstanding. I believe that the idea is this: not everybody knows qwerty (it's an odd feeling actually typing qwerty as a word. Try it and you'll see what I mean) but everybody knows the alphabet. This true but irrelevant. People know the alphabet as a one dimensional string, not as a two-dimensional array, so you're going to have to hunt and peck anyway.

      Typing qwerty is quite natural... on a qwerty keyboard.

      I can type by heart on a qwerty keyboard, but if someone asks me out of the blue "What is the letter to the right of the y on a qwerty keybaord?", I am going to need to look at a keyboard to find out.

      Or just hit the key without looking...

      uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

      Yep thats it. What is even stranger is I typed u in that sentence without even knowing that it was right next to the y.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    61. Re:Inertia by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      And this technique (slashdotted already) does not seem to be a better keyboard layout. It appears to be intended for small devices with the keys not laid out like a typewriter but in a small squarer shape, such as easier to type with thumbs or touch screen. It would be highly impractical for a normal keyboard. Now maybe his idea is great in the sense that if you're on a small smartphone then why use a qwerty layout that is not very space efficient.

      As for why qwerty is used, it is because people know it. In hindsight it may not be the best but that is irrelevant because it is the standard that everyone knows and is trained on. Abcdef keyboards are not logical except for those who do not touch type and have to always hunt and peck. Dvorak is better for being more optimized than qwerty but still relatively uncommon.

      Also many "ergonomic" typewriters were really bad and would put keys on the wrong half for trained touch typists. I think this was more an experimental phase and since then we have keyboards with much easier to press keys.

    62. Re:Inertia by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I found switching to German or Swedish temporarily not that hard for typing words. However it really slowed me down with code or command lines. Ie, the keys you'd need to use all the type would be on different keys or even need AltGr to type, such as /, \, |, {, }, etc. I found AltGr a pain to use also because it's not in an easy to push location usually unlike shift. (I also find it annoying to use other people's keyboards since I always remap ctrl to be in the divinely ordained position to the left of 'a', and having capslock there is a heresy)

    63. Re:Inertia by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 2

      There actually is a keyboard layout optimized for swiping. It takes a bit of getting used to, but it really is faster once you learn it.

      --
      "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
    64. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because Kelvin is the exact same scale as Celcius, but with being infinitely less useful in modern day usage since it doesn't conveniently zero out on an extraordinarily common daily occurance in everyday life. The absolute single only thing it does is negate the need for a negative symbol. I'm pretty sure most people however understand what a minus sign means.

    65. Re:Inertia by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      My opinion: everone migrates to US-International and we're done with it.

      Hell no. I HATE that thin enter key. You can take my UK layout keyboard from my cold dead hands. :-)

    66. Re:Inertia by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Je n'ai pas de problÃme avec cette texte, car j'utilise la disposition du clavier "UK Extended Enhanced" qui est le mien. Cependent, j'ai plus de difficulté avec le franÃais. ;-)

    67. Re:Inertia by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      I use Celsius for scientific work, but if I want to know what it's like outside, I'd rather see the temperature in Fahrenheit. Fahrenheit is nicely human-sized, with 2 digits sufficient to determine how comfortable you will be over the most commonly encountered range of temperatures. Celsius is a bit too coarse-grained, so you really need 3 digits to get a good idea of what it "feels like."

    68. Re:Inertia by gstrickler · · Score: 1

      Most users aren't willing to pay for a quality keyboard, as evidenced by the fact that most manufacturers include crappy ones, but people keep buying machines with a crappy keyboard, trackpad/mouse, and/or screen. Even for desktops, people generally go with a $10-$15 keyboard. So, until you have e-ink keyboards approaching that price range, with widespread OS support for for displaying the new layout, it's not going to happen.

      Even if Apple, HP, or Dell starts including such a keyboard standard, that doesn't mean the rest of the industry will follow. And that's ignoring the differences in physical key placement among keyboards once you get outside the qwerty letters and numbers. Enter/return, backspace, some punctuation, capslock/control, insert, delete, home, end, etc. often differ from one manufacturer to another, which makes alternative logical layouts even more challenging. It's going to require more standardization is physical switch layout to be practical and mass market.

      It's not impossible, but it is unlikely.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
    69. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe you severely underestimate the apathy of the typical end-user. Few people care enough about the issue to go through the trouble of remapping a keyboard, even if the task were made as easy as possible. And I suspect that many of those who might do so will lack the dedication to stick to it in the face of having to go back to qwerty whenever they use other devices (e.g. at work where remapping likely won't be tolerated for most of the employees), or worse, having to use someone else's custom remapping on every other device.

      I think it will take something fundamentally jarring to displace qwerty.

      - T

    70. Re:Inertia by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 1

      I use this keyboard at work and at home (I bought the second one for work after I tested it out at home). The Maxim has individual mechanical switches too - and better yet allows me to use in ergo mode - and then close up the clam shell whenever the desktop support guy happens to need to monkey with my machine at work.

      As for the QWERTY issue - I just shrug my shoulders. I learned to touch type at 18, so like you I have many years of muscle memory that would have to be retrained out of me. Could I do it? Sure. Would it be painful? Absolutely.

      --

      Lodragan Draoidh
      The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
    71. Re:Inertia by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      By the way, I did type that text correctly, but as we all know, Slashdot fucks up non-ASCII characters. :-)

    72. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "change from Fahrenheit to Celsius"

      Why not go all the way and change to Kelvin

      Same scale different zero

    73. Re:Inertia by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      Eh wouldn't you get wear on the home row simply due to your fingers resting there? Maybe not more than the most frequently pressed keys though.

    74. Re:Inertia by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      At first glance, it seems like it'll have a pain of a time telling the difference between similar words. Char or Chair? Harm or Ham?

      And it seems to be fairly vulnerable to imprecision going over the vowel almost-cross as well.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    75. Re:Inertia by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 1

      I don't find that to be much of a problem with it, but YMMV. Note that the keys are larger and more evenly spaced than with most keyboards, which helps.

      --
      "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
    76. Re:Inertia by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      Are you secretly one of the writers for Monty Python?

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    77. Re:Inertia by galanom · · Score: 1

      It may change in time, but just because someone invents a better keyboard layout, or a more innovative way to type, doesn't mean it will meet common acceptance

      "abcdef" a better keyboard layout? No, not at all.
      If any change is to be made ever, it would be an international collaboration and research, that would give something that would be widely agreed that is significantly better, with international use, not just US or even EU.

      My opinion? Not gonna happen.

    78. Re:Inertia by galanom · · Score: 1

      My opinion: If QWERTY has a slight provision for common accents (grave, acute, circumflex, cedille, ulaut), a fucking COMPOSE key mandatory (aside from AltGr), that would actually be a great idea.

      As for weird alphabets (like Greek I use) there are different layouts activated temporarily with Alt-Shift. So it's fine even with this.

      I only can't find a proper solution for CJK guys.

    79. Re:Inertia by swalve · · Score: 1

      That's just the sort of thing Apple would screw up. Attention to detail!

    80. Re:Inertia by galanom · · Score: 1

      Quebec is 100% french speaking yet they use QWERTY...

    81. Re:Inertia by Teancum · · Score: 1

      For myself, I usually do go for a nice keyboard, particularly with a desktop computer. I almost never buy that keyboard from the same place where I purchase the computer, where a cheap POS keyboard is usually included that I may hang onto as a back-up in case the nice keyboard fails (where I painfully use it for a couple of days).

      Laptop keyboards are another story, but even there I've plugged in alternate keyboards into those laptops simply because either they are broken (but the laptop is otherwise in good shape). On laptops, the quality of the keyboard, at least in terms of how it feels, is one thing that makes a definite different in what I purchase though.

      My reasoning for buying a quality keyboard has to do with how much I use it. If I'm expected to perform a full-time job on that computer, I had better damn well have an I/O interface that is worthy of my time on that machine. Farmers now have air conditioning, built-in CD players, and and enclosed cab with their tractors, I expect similar kinds of perks if you are going to seriously treat me as a professional. A quality keyboard is one of those things I expect from an employer.

      On the other hand, I expect POS keyboards in public places like schools and universities in computer labs unless you have a system admin that cares about that sort of thing.

    82. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows Phone partly solves the extra keys issue. Press &123 to get numbers and symbols. Hold certain symbols to access other symbols. But, it's not perfect, no access to the plus sign, for example. The flaw is the whole smiley section could have been more useful keys.

    83. Re:Inertia by gstrickler · · Score: 1

      I'm a keyboard snob. Refuse to use crappy keyboards, mice, trackpads, or screens. Those are the primary devices I use to interact with the computer, and I'm not willing to abuse myself with crappy devices. If a laptop has a bad keyboard, trackpad, or screen, I won't buy it. Desktop machines are easier because I buy (or already have) those devices separately.

      However, we're clearly in the minority, most people simply don't care enough to demand better. And as long as that remains true, I see no change in the use of qwerty or crappy input devices.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
    84. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Qwerty is indeed better for programming.

      Sacre bleu! What's wrong with hitting the Alt-Gr and "_" key to get a backslash? If you were really meant to type numbers, then the keyboard
      wouldn't make you hold down a shift key to get to them. You just need to pick a language that fits in well with the Azerty keyboard.

      Stupid anglophile. Merde...

    85. Re:Inertia by jedwidz · · Score: 1

      I'd say the case for Dvorak on a thumbboard is (even) stronger than on a regular computer keyboard, on account of that tendency to alternate hands.

      On a regular keyboard this isn't ideal. It's faster to type two keys per hand than one key per hand.

      This isn't really flaw in Dvorak - on the mechanical typewriters that it was designed for, one key per hand is best.

      There are keyboard layouts designed around this observation. I've dabbled in it myself. My best effort spelled out a profanity on the home row, which is great because it's very easy to learn.

    86. Re:Inertia by sahonen · · Score: 1

      It's even worse than that... People don't know what a good keyboard is. People *seek out* Apple's craptacular desktop keyboard (which is basically just a laptop keyboard, mushy feel, flat keytops and all).

      --
      Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
    87. Re:Inertia by Cinder6 · · Score: 1

      I always assumed the ergonomic keyboards didn't catch on because people didn't feel like they were worth the cost. I don't understand why they would be hard to switch between (then again, I switch between Dvorak and QWERTY constantly [two systems next to each other, one with QWERTY and the other with dvorak; also, my phone is QWERTY] without a drop in speed, so maybe I'm unusual).

      Changing keyboard layouts is trivial--you don't need to buy a new keyboard. All you need to do is change something in your OS's settings. I think the whole layout issue is simply due to momentum. People talk about vendor lock-in with Android an iOS, but people still make the change. And yet I have (personally) known only one person besides myself who decided to set out and learn an alternate keyboard layout. Other people look at me like I'm absolutely insane for using Dvorak. They see no problem with QWERTY, and therefore, no need to change. Put another way, no keyboard layout is compelling enough for the 99% of users to go through the difficulty of becoming proficient at it.

      --
      If you can't convince them, convict them.
    88. Re:Inertia by Cinder6 · · Score: 1

      Just bought my first mechanical keyboard since my old Model M. Can't wait for it to arrive!

      --
      If you can't convince them, convict them.
    89. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My kingdom for mod points. Oh I'm an AC... Meh.

    90. Re:Inertia by MadKeithV · · Score: 1

      Seriously? 40% is peanuts? Because that's exactly what the original statement implies.

      No, that's not what the original statement implies. The definition of the word "most" ) is "the majority". If 60% of Belgians speak Dutch as their first language, that means the majority, that means "most Belgians speak Dutch". It implies absolutely nothing beyond "there are more Belgians that speak Dutch as their first language than Belgians that speak another language as their first language".
      The fact that so many people, like you, read politico-lingual issues into that factual statement is a testament to how rotten the situation in Belgium is. I do not disagree with you on that point and I see no way out. But it's still just a very simple, neutral fact that more Belgians speak Dutch as their first language than any other language.

    91. Re:Inertia by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Finger training versus mental expectation. The Dvorak keyboard is not the image you expect, so your visual hunt and peck with your thumbs isn't going to work so well. There's no tactile orientation. In other words, your brain is using the image of a keyboard to do cell phone typing--and that's a QWERTY image. If Dvorak was the familiar and Qwerty was strange, your brain would visually orient based on Dvorak, and it'd be easier.

    92. Re:Inertia by orasio · · Score: 1

      It's like I say about GUIs - rather than trying to force everyone into a menu model or a ribbon model, include both. The people who like menus can use the menus, the people who like the ribbon can use the ribbon, and if a menu-user sits at a ribbon-user's computer (or vice versa), a single configuration option should let you switch between the two. We should be adapting computers to match the way we (as individuals) like to work, not expecting individuals to adapt how they work to match one monolithic way all computers work.

      Interesting, but wrong. One way is better than the other. Choose the better way and stick with it.
      If the transition from the worse election to the better one is too hard, stick with the old. If there is a new, better way to do things, it needs to come in a new package, a new product. that's not a problem, we change devices very often.
      Configurability works for less than 5% of people. Regular people like to use whatever is the default, all efforts should be focused on good defaults.

    93. Re:Inertia by gstrickler · · Score: 1

      You should spend some time with Apple's aluminum keyboard, there is a reason people seek it out. I'm typing on one now and have one on the Dell PC next to me.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
    94. Re:Inertia by nobaloney · · Score: 1

      I'm not claiming that QWERTY is the best layout for typing- in fact, it's generally accepted that it almost certainly isn't.

      Actually QWERTY is the worst. It was designed specifically so typists couldn't type faster than the mechanical techniques of the day would allow. Look up the history of typewriters; the first didn't use separate letters on separate levers; they used a carrier that moved up and down and turned on it's axis (long before the Selectric), and even the earliest electrics used an electric motor to wind up a spring which would pull back the 'hammer' to be released after the keypress caused the carrier to move into position.

      See the Vari-Typer: http://site.xavier.edu/polt/typewriters/varityper.html

      When I was eight years old my aunt gave me one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AmericasBestComics2650.jpg

      When I was thirteen she got me one of these: http://machinesoflovinggrace.com/large/Royal%20Heritage.jpg

      It was probably a good investment; by 1960 in typing class in high school I was typeing 65 cwpm on one of these: http://blog.ohinternet.com/5394/manufacturing-of-typewriters-finally-ends/1951_ibm_electric_typewriter_adx/

      A few years letter I was a typographer, and got into computers as typography did.

      QWERTY has survived because of all the people who've been taught it, and even the efficient Dvorak keyboard (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard) couldn't couldn't replace it.

    95. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >"We should be adapting computers to match the way we (as individuals) like to work, not expecting individuals to adapt how >they work to match one monolithic way all computers work."

      I really don't agree. The way computers work, are determined by people who've usually already seen how a *lot* of OTHER things work, and how a lot of other *people* work. And their way of working is likely to be a lot more streamlined and sophisticated than J. Random Luser.

      Adapting to some random fool's way of wanting to work or wanting to think, is not the way. Rather adapt the FOOL's way of working, and improve that fool. If the fool doesn't take his opportunity, then that's the end of it anyway.

    96. Re:Inertia by billstewart · · Score: 1

      My hovercraft is, in fact, full of eels...

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    97. Re:Inertia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's OK. French people can't deal with French Canadians either. But that's basically because France can't deal with anything or anyone and it's actually worse when the thing they can't deal with speaks their language. THAT freaks them out.

    98. Re:Inertia by sahonen · · Score: 1

      You mean this thing? It feels like shit to type on, like a laptop keyboard.

      --
      Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
    99. Re:Inertia by danlock4 · · Score: 1

      Why not go all the way and change to Kelvin

      Because then the freezing and boiling point of water wouldn't be 0 and 100 degrees, respectively. They'd be 273.15 and 373.15 degrees, respectively.

      Maybe if we had 10.15 fingers (that includes thumbs, natürlich) and 10.15 toes and 2.15 arms and 2.15 legs that would make perfect sense to us. However, that's not the case for most of the people I know. :)

      --
      To .sig or not to .sig, that is the question.
    100. Re:Inertia by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      It would have made sense if people adopted the abcdef keyboard (alphabetical)

      Why? Just because it's the most obvious layout, doesn't mean it's the optimal one for typing. At most it's going to make it slightly easier for complete beginners to find keys before they've learned where they are.

      I'm not claiming that QWERTY is the best layout for typing- in fact, it's generally accepted that it almost certainly isn't.

      But as you say, there have been countless attempts to do alternate layouts, and few have gained much traction. If we're talking about mobile devices (where, after all, people learned to "type" on a non-QWERTY 12-digit keyboard (*)) perhaps sticking with a full keyboard- albeit with different layout- isn't thinking far enough (**), and we should be considering something like Microwriter- which first appeared 30 years ago!

      (*) And showed no inclination do use that on a computer

      (**) I was going to say "not thinking far enough outside the box" but I really loathe that stupid cliche even though I can't think of anything better. Always found it ironic that "thinking outside the box" is such a cliched, unoriginal, unimaginative, corporate, stuck inside the damn box phrase(!!)

      I write in English, French and Spanish. I use qwerty, azerty and latim keylayouts. I believe that qwerty / azerty are the best because, in typing, there is a need to also rest the finger muscles to prevent repetitive strain. the two layouts I indicated, do that. In fact latim layout is qwerty with the extra Spanish keys.

      If you doubt the repetitive strain, check your mouse click finger. Is it not sore by end-of-day?

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    101. Re:Inertia by gstrickler · · Score: 1

      It feels like Apple's laptop keyboards. It doesn't feel like any other laptop keyboards. It's solid, has great tactile/haptic feedback, and very light audible feedback (but much quieter than the old IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp buckling spring keyswitch). The only thing that take a little getting used to is the short travel, and that only takes a day or so.

      I switched from my buckling spring keyboard because I needed something quiet since I'm a "night owl" but my roommates weren't. I was skeptical at first, but I decided to try it out, and within the first week, I decided I wasn't going back to the noisemaker I had been so fond of for 20+ years. 30 minutes in a store isn't going to be enough time to adjust to it, you need to buy one, use it for a few days, then, if you don't like it, return it. But, I doubt you'll return it.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
  8. For soft keyboards? Why not? by msobkow · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to "plug in" any text input widget you choose with a decently designed device. It would make supporting languages other than English a hell of a lot easier, and it would let people opt for things like stylus/printing interfaces instead of virtual keyboards.

    Frankly I'd be shocked if the Qwerty soft keyboards were hard coded -- companies would be locking themselves out of non-English markets, and that's not good global thinking or marketing.

    Myself, I hate virtual keyboards of all kinds. I'd much rather use a stylus with handwriting recognition.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  9. What's the deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I switched between QWERTY US International, QWERTY UK, QWERTZ (German) and AZERTY Belgian several times. Every time it will take me like 2 to 5 days to get used to it, it takes about the same time to get used to the layout of your phone. So, who cares about the next big new keyboard layout?

    1. Re:What's the deal? by Skylinux · · Score: 2

      I am currently switching from QWERTY to QWERTZ and can't stand QWERTZ for programming.
      Stuff like {} and [] needs ALTGR + 7,8,9 or 0 and a SHIFT + , for a line endings (;). It is an unnecessary strain on my poor fingers and it shows that QWERTZ was intended to write letters, nothing more.

      It took me an hour to get used to the changed position of some of the letters but I am still cursing the keyboard when I write code. Unfortunately I could only get my new laptop with QWERTZ so I am forced to adapt now.

      --
      Everyone who buys Wild Hunt will receive 16 specially prepared DLCs absolutely for free, regardless of platform.
    2. Re:What's the deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been programming for 15 years on QWERTZ, this is what I do when I launch the IDE: ALT+SHIFT. Works perfectly.

    3. Re:What's the deal? by swilver · · Score: 2

      just use whatever layout, and don't look at the keys (or just overwrite them with a marker). I would never adapt a new layout just because the keyboard tells me too :)

  10. Have you ever tried programming on an iPhone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just because qwerty may not be the best fit for a phone, does not automatically imply it's terrible for all tasks.

  11. Change for changes' sake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Make sure the unity/gnomeshell devs don't hear about this or were all doomed.

  12. OCD. by craznar · · Score: 1

    Looks like an exercise in OCD, not in design.

    Getting the vowels to line up has little use in written language, but it might make an OCD a touch less stressed.

    --
    EMail: 0110001101100010010000000110001101110010 0110000101111010011011100110000101110010 0010111001100011011011110110
    1. Re:OCD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really, putting them in a row on one side means that with thumb-typing you alter between thumbs. It's Dvorak-inspired.

    2. Re:OCD. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that only requires having them all on one side, not having them vertically aligned. Seriously, WTF would you move the Z over there? just shift the top two rows over if it's so damn important to line them up, or just leave the vowels stairstepped - they'd still all be on the left thumb.

  13. Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Android has been a literal playground for new keyboard designs. QWERTY is winning so far, but there's no reason to push one standard over another because we aren't tied to a physical keyboard anymore. I have 8 keyboards installed on my phone. Most QWERTY, but some, like 8pen, are radically different and focus on actual typing speed.

    The keyboard in the article is

    1) not made for speed
    2) fucking ugly
    3) takes up a crazy amount of screen real-estate

    1. Re:Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I posted a similar comment which instantly disappeared..

    2. Re:Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by AuMatar · · Score: 3

      I worked on one of those keyboards you probably used for about 2 years (Swype). To quote my CEO when asked about some new competitor who bought some talk in the Android press- "non-qwerty non-starty". Nobody is even going to try a non-qwerty keyboard. Even most techies won't.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    3. Re:Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give me a Dvoak swype keyboard and I'll prove you wrong.

    4. Re:Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by ezakimak · · Score: 1

      I use 8pen--it's great. I can use it with one hand w/o even looking. Try that with *any* layout-based or tap-style input method. With two hands I can go very fast--much faster than with swype. The only real competition to 8pen for speed and usability might be some variant of slide keyboard.

    5. Re:Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Thanks for mentioning 8pen. I was trying to remember its name, but it wasn't coming to me.

      Since a touchscreen is indeed a fundamentally different device that oftentimes cannot accommodate all of our fingers, it does make sense to optimize around the motions that are most feasible, and 8pen seems to have done that well. I just wish it had caught on more and that I would have had a good excuse to learn to use it. It seems to me like it really could be a great thing after the initial learning curve.

    6. Re:Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      It would work horribly. The algorithms don't work well on straight lines-hence the put pot pit out problems. Dvorak would have way too many straight lines for good recognition.

      But it really isn't that there wouldn't be a few who tried it. It's that the number would be negligible, and none of them would want to pay for it. Not enough to base a business off of.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    7. Re:Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      I use MessagEase on my android phone. It uses a combination of taps and swipes on a 3x3 grid. The nine most common letters are single taps. The next eight most common are swipes from the outside in, and the next eight from the inside out. As a new cell phone user, I found that my typing speed was about the same between hunt and pecking on the MessagEase, and the multi-key, curse-delete-retype method of the teeny-tiny QWERTY keyboard. MessagEase works really well in a shaky environment like a bus or subway because the gestures are typically big and bold as opposed to the ultra precise gestures you need on a QWERTY.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    8. Re:Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter. You'd never get even 1% of the user base to try it. If it isn't qwerty, it's going to be a toy used by a few dozen people.

      Nor do I think I'd want to explain to my mom that she needs to memorize different combinations of swipes to get different letters. I barely got her to figure out Swype and I had the advantage of her wanting to play with software I helped write. you can piggy back a new method of input on top of a traditional QWERTY interface, but if it doesn't have that QWERTY tapping backup it won't get any traction.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    9. Re:Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by ranpel · · Score: 1

      "It seems to me like it really could be a great thing after the initial learning curve"

      It is and it's fun and it's efficient - especially if you'd prefer to handle a hand-held device with one hand.

      --
      \r
    10. Re:Why do we need an advertisment for Dextr? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I too use MessagEase.
      It's effing brilliant. There is also a training app (game), that score you based on words per minute. I managed to get 35-40 wpm. Something I wouldn't be close to with any other keyboard.

      If you really want a fast easy to use keyboard this is it, might be disorienting at first, but your texting and phone use will improve!

  14. probably less relevant by awollabe · · Score: 2

    as more robust, built-in voice-to-text is disseminating so rapidly now on phones and tablets, and Dextr appears to target those devices. For those of us who already type quickly, I can't see why we'd want to learn a new format. For those just learning to type, I could see wanting to do something better than QWERTY (Dvorak).

  15. Re:For soft keyboards? Why not? by Mr.+Shiny+And+New · · Score: 1

    I don't know about iPhone, but on Android it's trivial to install a new input method and there are lots available, many which don't resemble keyboards at all.

  16. He will follow in the footsteps of by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He will follow in the footsteps of Dvorak, colemak (oh how I wish this was used everywhere), and the the many other layouts into either oblivion or a small number of dedicated users who cannot understand why everyone else doesn't want to switch to their layout.

    1. Re:He will follow in the footsteps of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      or a small number of dedicated users who cannot understand why everyone else doesn't want to switch to their layout.

      You just accidentally described the Linux UI war.

    2. Re:He will follow in the footsteps of by robot_love · · Score: 1

      All hail Colemak!

      Moved through Dvorak to Colemak a few years ago, and don't know how I lived before it. The CAPS_LOCK == Backspace is the icing on the cake.

      --
      .there is enough of everything for everyone.
    3. Re:He will follow in the footsteps of by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      Indeed, Colemak is a very nice layout.And pretty easy to switch to from Qwerty.

      --
      Not a sentence!
  17. Re:just an advertisment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't this just an advertisment?

    Yes.

    Am I missing the point of this post.

    No. It's just a slashvertisement.

  18. How about a real "benefit"... by Auroch · · Score: 1

    This sort of keyboard is change for the sake of change. Any improvements in keyboard technology ... for me, anyways ... must improve, not merely change.

    chorded keyboard that allow sight-free touchscreen typing? That's an improvement. Changing the keyboard layout to something better? That's called Dvorak.

    --
    Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
  19. whad"s thi fuss? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I, fir one, don"f cee whad thi fuss es apout.

    I'n abendonned QWERTY wonks ago amd I'n doung jist fane.

    1. Re:whad"s thi fuss? by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1
      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  20. What's the point? by na1led · · Score: 1

    Even if you do find a better way to type on a keyboard, do you think 99.999999% of the people in the world are going to follow you? Any job that requires typing skill is not going to ask if you know how to use a Dvork or Dextr keyboard. The keyboard will change when we no longer need them, after A.I. provides us a better means of communicating with computers.

    --
    -- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
    1. Re:What's the point? by mla_anderson · · Score: 1

      The keyboard will change when we no longer need them, after A.I. provides us a better means of communicating with computers.

      AI is going to have to do a good job of reading minds then. I can type faster than I can talk, and much faster than I can talk intelligently to a computer.

      --
      Sig is on vacation
    2. Re:What's the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can type faster than I can talk,

      Unlikely. I can talk at around 250 wpm without much effort (e.g. it took me 8s to read your post aloud (excluding the quote) and it has 33 words in it).
      However, even an expert typist would only peak at around 200wpm flat out.

      and much faster than I can talk intelligently to a computer.

      Fair enough.

    3. Re:What's the point? by na1led · · Score: 1

      It will be like talking to a Psychologist. You speak what’s on your mind, and the computer intelligently logs it all for you.

      --
      -- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
  21. Re:For soft keyboards? Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    iPhone does not allow you to replace the system keyboard, which was one of the neat features that impressed me when I moved to Android.

  22. Wrong.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wrong wrong... usual argument, layout is for type writers, blah blah. That someone yet again has come out with a new keyboard layout, qwerty is dead.. blah blah.

    Why do smart phones have qwerty layout? There is still no real proof that other keyboard layouts are better.

    Bored, move along.

  23. AZERTY by chthon · · Score: 1

    There are also people using AZERTY!

  24. this is like all this "the PC is dead" crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not everyone uses their computers to watch Youtube videos and dick about with friends.

    Those who actually work - a surprising if dwindling proportion of the population - and those take one of many modern hobbies seriously need a full-size screen and keyboard. And a powerful local machine for processing, and possibly storage.

    So, people who never really had a use for a computer in the first place can enjoy their iConsumables. That's fine and cool, and I'm not going to be a dick and say Apple are lame just because their shit doesn't suit me. But AOL failed to AOLify the Internet (indeed, as people got more Internet-savvy, AOL lost its edge), so why the hell do we think it would be a good idea for Apple to Applify the computer?

  25. swype and slideit by Auroch · · Score: 2

    ... wow. This new keyboard is so much faster than typing with swype. NOT.

    --
    Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
  26. Need to change the software not the keyboard by vlm · · Score: 2

    Don't worry about changing the $5 disposable mush-board hardware. Worry about changing software. I would imagine cursor movement in VI or nethack is pretty agonizing on dvorak layout.

    I've been hearing this stuff since I saw ads for dvorak replacement keyboards in 1982. Probably has been around longer. Nothing WRT this argument has really changed since then. Unimpressed.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Need to change the software not the keyboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure there's a learning curve in adapting to Vi commands from Dvorak (you use Vi and you want to complain about learning curve?). But it takes a surprisingly short amount of time to get it. And it's well worth the ergonomic benefits of Dvorak.

    2. Re:Need to change the software not the keyboard by vlm · · Score: 1

      A learning curve? That sounds like a brick wall. The concept of HJKL doesn't translate well at all. Do dvorak VI users remap to HTNS, which has other side effects such as needing to remap them too?

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:Need to change the software not the keyboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would imagine cursor movement in VI or nethack is pretty agonizing on dvorak layout.

      Your imagination is correct. I used dvorak for a couple years in college, and I did have to quit nethack during that time, because it was't worth it to me to relearn the muscle memory.

  27. Nice going by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you had the perfect oppurtonity to put all the vowels on the leftmost column but nooooooooo typing speed is irrelevant when you can use an indoctrinated sequence. Also, it won't scale well on horizontal layouts.

  28. Chorded Keyboards by LordLucless · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If there's one thing that deserves to make a comeback in this mobile world, it's chorded keyboards. QWERTY sucks on mobile devices because it takes up too much space, especially a physical board. On the other hand, you could probably put enough keys (say, three for each hand) on the back of a mobile device to make them practical physical keyboards without taking up valuable real estate that could be used for the screen.

    --
    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    1. Re:Chorded Keyboards by chilvence · · Score: 2

      But the chorded keyboard is not self explanatory. It is reasons like that that cause things to flop, it is why nobody ever likes predictive text unless you do like it, in which case you like it very much! I remember someone talking about a 'revolutionary' typing corrector for a smartphone keyboard, when it was just doing the same thing as predictive text and guessing what letter you wanted from where your fingers were mashing the screen.

      People's biggest hurdle learning to type is that qwerty jumbles up the established order of the alphabet. Here is a more pragmatic solution: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDjeoMz1YFw&feature=related

  29. Fingertip sized? by jklovanc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who's fingertip? a four year old girl's fingers or a my sausage sized fingers? Finger tip size varies a lot.

  30. Change the Order of the Alphabet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If the problem is the QWERTY keyboard isn't in alphabetical order, why not just change the order of the alphabet? Its purely arbitrary to begin with. He is right, there are currently two keyboards in general usage. I don't think we need a third one.

    1. Re:Change the Order of the Alphabet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because changing the alphabet to reflect the keyboard would be more costly than changing the keyboard to reflect the alphabet.

  31. Can we instead end.. by Harald+Paulsen · · Score: 1

    ..imperial units in the US
    ..left sided driving in the UK

    And what about the germans and their QWERTZ?
    (That was a problem for me while visiting a german friend, as my password at the time had an Y in it)

    --
    Harald
    1. Re:Can we instead end.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      imperial units - a real problem

      left-sided driving? no logical reason it is worse than right other than it's the minority, and costs a minimal extra in development and manufacturing costs and other moaning things you'll say. But it's nowhere near as bad as imperial units which are horrific

    2. Re:Can we instead end.. by JazzHarper · · Score: 1

      ...imperial units in the US

      Easily done. The US never adopted imperial units.

    3. Re:Can we instead end.. by chilvence · · Score: 1

      Left handed driving - purely arbitrary. If you want any chance of changing it, first you have to make ambidextrous cars the standard. I suggest using a tiller instead of a wheel.

    4. Re:Can we instead end.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no logical reason it is worse than right

      It makes you shift with your left hand, and most people are right handed.

    5. Re:Can we instead end.. by xaxa · · Score: 1

      ..left sided driving in the UK

      About 1/3 of the world drives on the left, which is a different scale of problem than America all alone with feet and pounds.

      I was doing some maintenance on my bicycle yesterday, and wondered if I should get a torque wrench. Most English-language websites waffle on about inch-pounds, foot-pounds, and, for some reason, kilogram-force-centimetre, before mentioning Newton-metres (Nm), and all the conversion factors between them. The British websites only mention Nm, but the online shops here seem to stock tools with either measure.

    6. Re:Can we instead end.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the UK, and Thailand, and (most importantly, given that Toyota is the world's biggest car maker now) Japan, and various other countries? Not a hope.

      Also, let me point out to you why driving on the RIGHT is actually retarded.
      What are 90% of people? Right-handed.
      Where's the steering wheel in the countries above? On the right.
      So which hand do you take off the wheel to futz with the gears*, the stereo, the aircon, the satnav, etc? Your LEFT, or (for 90% of people) less dominant hand.

      Where's the steering wheel in LHD countries? On the left.
      So which hand do you take off the wheel to futz with the gears*, the stereo, the aircon, the satnav, etc? Your RIGHT, or (for 90% of people) more dominant hand.

      It is statistically measurable (google it up if you like, I can't be arsed) that it's safer for countries to drive on the left, purely because of this.

      Also, the reason France drives on the right is "because we hate the English and want to be different from them", and the reason the rest of Europe, and the US, drive on the right is "let's copy France".

      * unless you're a retarded Yank driving a slushbox because you don't know how to change gear, that is

  32. Starting my own religion... by FilmedInNoir · · Score: 1

    Who wants to join the First United Church of the Fonz?
    And so it is with new keyboard layouts. Fonzie be Praised.

    --
    Sig. Sig. Sputnik
  33. The question is wrong by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

    We don't "love" qwerty. It's what we use. Little more than that. The learning curve is horrible, but once you got it, learning anything after that would be more painful than it would be worth.

    1. Re:The question is wrong by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      Weird, that's what I always say about Emacs, and then some vi user dunks me on the head for it ?!

  34. There is nothing to see here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did anyone actually go look at the keyboard? Some idiot just took the alphabet. Put it in a grid, gave it a cute name and reaped profits. Swype is innovative. This is not.

  35. Did you say metric? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I look at it the same way as american standard measurements. american should convert to metric, but we have a system that 'works'... so getting people to change from what they are used to will be tough.

  36. We could also learn Esperanto by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto

    The English language has all sorts of grammar, spelling, and pronunciation problems. It's a nasty difficult to learn mix of germanic and romance language pronounciation and word derivations. Take the word "Sure". Where is the "H" in "sure"? Speaking of "where", why is it not "ware"? And what the bleep is up with "cough", "dough", and "plough"? Ridiculous nonsense, horrible language with too many idiosyncratic oddities to learn.

    And yet it remains an international standard for business. Why? History, that's why.

    And that history locks the language in this role is the deciding factor, regardless of how much more intelligently designed, more easily learned, more easily understood, that Esperanto is.

    And same applies to the QWERTY keyboard. I am certain there are more intelligent designs out there, like the dvorak:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard

    And so why hasn't the dvorak caught on? And why won't this new keyboard catch on? Historical lock in, that's why.

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by konaya · · Score: 1

      English is self-contradictory so you get the chance to look down your nose on people who fail to keep track of it all. Since everyone cocks up sometimes, everybody gets a shot at it. That's why we love English :)

    2. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by xaxa · · Score: 1

      For language, you need to convince a lot of people to change to make it worthwhile.

      I type with a Dvorak keyboard 99% of the time, but that doesn't prevent my emails from being understood by my friends and colleagues.

    3. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      And then there's our crazy spelling. But there's a plan:

      For example, in Year 1 that useless letter c would be dropped to be replased either by k or s, and likewise x would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which c would be retained would be the ch formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform w spelling, so that which and one would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish y replasing it with i and Iear 4 might fiks the g/j anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez c, y and x — bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez — tu riplais ch, sh, and th rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    4. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take the word bunch of weirdness with English omitted...

      Accents thats why. Take a canadian that lives near say Toronto. Take the word 'sorry'. They pronounce it sooruy. Yet less than 100 miles south it is sahry, go another 2-400 miles and it is sarie. Now do this across the whole of the English language. Yet all 3 of those groups has decided that the spelling is 'sorry'. Then take words that are yanked out of context and re-used for something else...

      English is a very malleable language. Good for if you want to speak it. Painful if you want to write it down. As the way you speak is not the way you write with it.

    5. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Interesting

      the grammar nazi's kid sister: the analogy literalist

      i swear, every time someone posts an analogy on slashdot, somebody has to get pedantic with the analogy

      there IS such a thing as bad analogies, but why esperanto isn't spoken is a good analogy as to why the dvorak or any other nonQWERTY keyboard won't take off: historical lock in

      THAT'S the analogy. get it? historical lock in

      but you go and take a literalist approach to the analogy, and think it means something to point out an analogy is not the same equivalency. no: your point means nothing. really. it just means you are being pedantic

      we understand an analogy has its limits. ok? everyone can see this. it is an easy, and pointless, exercise to point out where two examples are not the same. the point is: where are they the same? and does that say something useful?

      slashdot, please listen:

      pointing out where two examples are not analogous, UNLESS that difference counteracts the parts that are analogous, is USELESS

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    6. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      while it's true that English is a bitch to write, it's actually one of the more forgiving spoken languages, which, imo, is why it's the world's prefered language.

      I'm a native English speaker living in London. I've been brought up listening to all manners of using and abusing the language (verbally) and everyone get's along just fine.

      I lived in Amsterdam for a while as well. I learnt Dutch (enough to get by) and had huge difficulty being understood. namely because whilst my vocabulary was fine my word order was not always correct and that was something natives just couldn't seem to deal with.

      exmaple:

      where is the car?
      the car is where?

      in English, both are perfectly understandable but it's not true, afaik, of most languages.

      that said, when i returned to England it did take me 3 months before i could read again. "would" would just cause my brain to hiccup with "wowld"

    7. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by tgeller · · Score: 1

      I'm typing this on a Dvorak keyboard and actually speak Esperanto -- I even worked in the world organization's central office. Both of those skills have benefitted me.

      But I have no illusions about their cost/benefit ratio for the public at large. And this? It's just fucking stupid.

      --
      Tom Geller
    8. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever tried another language? English is so popular because it is easy compared to other languages.

      Take Spanish with their 7 different tenses (and altogether different uses in different countries). Or German with almost every verb being an irregular verb.

      I agree with you on the pronunciation issues, but it is "still" easier than most others.

      (AC because of moderation)

    9. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by xaxa · · Score: 1

      You explained the analogy over several paragraphs, why bother if it's not very good?

      Perhaps you don't know all the history of why Esperanto isn't spoken. It was especially promoted in Eastern Europe, particularly in the countries around Hungary -- the Austro-Hungarian Empire included many speakers of quite different languages: Hungarian, German, Czech/Slavic, Russian. Esperanto seemed a great way to communicate.
      However, in the early 20th century, with the rise of nationalism, promoting a universal language was frowned upon, and Esperanto quickly became politically subversive. This continued (in Eastern Europe, where most of the speakers were) through communism, while the rise of the USA promoted English as a common tongue in the West.

      Or perhaps you don't know any other languages. English is easy. Most of our tenses are formed by adding an extra word to the present tense ("I jump", "I will jump" "I may jump", shall/would/can etc) or to the simple past tense ("I jumped" "I have jumped" "I had jumped") or a couple ("I should have jumped" "I will have jumped"). Word order is pretty flexible, we don't have any complicated grammar, we don't have noun/adjective genders, the only change for grammatical case is possessive (which is just apostrophe-S), etc. French has lots of different verb endings for each tense. German has three word genders and noun changes depending on case (My red bike is fast, I ride my bike, my bike's frame is muddy, I gave my bike a wash, I washed the mud from my bike, etc -- the "my" in German is different in most of those, and the "red" would need to match the gender of "bike", but not the "muddy", urgh...).

    10. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by xaxa · · Score: 1

      German has three word genders and noun changes depending on case (My red bike is fast, I ride my bike, my bike's frame is muddy, I gave my bike a wash, I washed the mud from my bike, etc -- the "my" in German is different in most of those, and the "red" would need to match the gender of "bike", but not the "muddy", urgh...).

      (My sentence is very probably a bit crap, it doesn't include many cases. As a native English speaker I find it hard to work out the grammar, since the words don't change much. My native-German-speaking housemate has no problem doing this, as her language makes it clear what part each word is playing in every sentence.)

    11. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "When we came to your planet, we taught ourselves all of your languages. Well, except for Esperanto, of course; you could tell _that_ one was going nowhere."

    12. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by KramberryKoncerto · · Score: 1

      It's a valid point to raise, and it is up to you to argue against it. Drawing an analogy contains an argument, and he disputes the validity of the argument. In this whole post you made no further justification on how his opinion doesn't trump your hypothesis of "historical lock-in", and you probably never stopped for half a second to reflect. Even if GP was pedantic, his post is harmless compared to your attitude.

      All the babbling aside, the point is, for example, you can let a bunch of kids learn the dvorak keyboard, and once one of them start to touch-type, there is little reason to switch to qwerty - they can type on a standard qwerty keyboard whenever the key-mapping is supported. On the other hand, if you learn Esperanto, you can only talk to others who learn Esperanto, and you still need English.

      I don't think qwerty will ever be "replaced" by dvorak. That is indeed mostly due to inertia. However, the most valuable thing about of analogies come when you think beyond them. GP mentioned dvorak, but you should put in some more imagination - when there is a problem with the analogy, that's often because a counter-example lies beyond your preconceptions.

      Chinese input methods basically use schemes that convert keystroke sequences on typical (English) keyboards to Chinese characters. Many, many different input methods coexist to the day, and there are some main players that couldn't kill each other just yet. They even have different keyboard layouts. Phonetic-based methods are the most prevalent, but non-phonetic based methods usually have their own merits, some have large user-bases, and people will keep teaching it and clinging on it forever.

      At least leave some room that different keyboard layouts could prevail in different contexts; for one thing, dumb phones don't use qwerty. It is possible that most iPad users find some non-qwerty layout better for typing, as inertia don't work for them - they already stare and poke their index fingers at their PC keyboards. Even we have to keep an eye on the iPad keyboard because our fingers somehow become fatter than usual. Moreover, unlike the traditional keyboard that comes as hardware, a software keyboard is easy to replace or switch. I think we shouldn't be too stubborn on this topic.

    13. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      English is -the- language. It can render sounds and syllables from almost any culture. It's designed to train the users to consider new things as useful. Most languages that have undergone reforms have immediately stopped growing, or grown by borrowing English words.

      People who believe in evolution in biology will invariably reject evolution in almost any other area of life.

    14. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take the words tough, though, through and thought. None of those groups pronounce these words in a way logically related to the spelling "ough". Yet all 3 of those groups have decided that the spelling contains "ough". Genius.

    15. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      English is not forgiving at all when you grow up using a language that has only 5 or 7 vowels and then you have to learn the twenty-something vowels of English. Giving the right combination of foreign×native speakers, it can be very hard to distinguish between "start" and "stop"!

    16. Re:We could also learn Esperanto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why esperanto isn't spoken

      Except that it IS spoken. It is not in the top 10 most spoken languages, but Esperanto certainly is in the top 100 (in a world of about 6000 languages).

  37. Dvorak! by mshenrick · · Score: 1

    Dvorak has been around for years!

  38. What's with the Z? by TheGinger · · Score: 1

    It goes A-Y except Z is randomly popped in the middle? why?????

    1. Re:What's with the Z? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It lines the five vowels up vertically -- I don't know how we lived so long without this stunningly practical feature!

    2. Re:What's with the Z? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's to get the vowels all lined up on the same column. It doesn't make sense at first, but if you stick the 'z' in after 'y' and push the letters back, you mess up the vowels' alignment. This is because the vowels aren't evenly spaced in the alphabet. You start with 'a', go 4 letters and reach 'e'. Go another '4' letters and reach 'i'. Then all of a sudden, you're jumping 6 letters to get to 'o'. Another 6 and you're at 'u'.

  39. The Dexter Keyboard by SteelKidney · · Score: 4, Funny

    Small bug in the software. If you mis-key something, you're immediately killed in a plastic-coated room lined with pictures of your misspelled words.

    1. Re:The Dexter Keyboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Your typo's will be read to you ceaselessly, in shifts, throughout eternity. The list will never end."

    2. Re:The Dexter Keyboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not a bug. It is a feature!

    3. Re:The Dexter Keyboard by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      The Dexter Keyboard

      Small bug in the software. If you mis-key something, you're immediately killed in a plastic-coated room lined with pictures of your misspelled words.

      You have just miskeyed the word "Dextr". Please kindly wait for the arrival of our forensic specialist. You will experience a tingling sensation and then death. Remain calm while your life is extracted.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  40. They by mattydont · · Score: 1

    Will Get my QWERTY keyboard when they pry it from my cold dead Carpal Tunnel'ed hands.

  41. No one needs QWERTY by Teun · · Score: 0

    No one needs QWERTY, outside of the US a lot of people regularly change their keyboard layout depending which language they like to use.
    That's one reason every desktop environment has some sort of Keyboard Layout switching utility, often right there in the task bar.
    The proposed layout is for tiny devices probably better than the present systems but on a full size appliance there are much better options like the Dvorak and Colemak.

    It'll be very hard to make large players in the marked switch over, just read the outcries about Win8 going to lose the Start button.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    1. Re:No one needs QWERTY by HarrySquatter · · Score: 1

      It'll be very hard to make large players in the marked switch over, just read the outcries about Win8 going to lose the Start button.

      And for good reason. If your changes don't end up actually providing the user enough benefit to recoup all the time they spend relearning then they are obviously going to be unhappy. Just because a UI/HIG "designer" needs to justify their employment by breaking things they think is "old" is not a valid reason to disrupt the normal workflow of users.

  42. Layout for one hand by sleepypsycho · · Score: 2

    Personally I would like to a see a good layout for one hand. Hold the device in one hand and type with the other. No more typing with thumbs. One thing this layout has going for it is more rows so each key is not squeezed together so tightly. I don't thing this app has any chance of growing to a standard. However if apple were to push a more natural layout for phones then I could see it overtaking qwerty. I could even see it make its way back to the PC where one hand could do the typing and the other could stay on the mouse. Such a change seems possible to me, although not necessarily likely.

    1. Re:Layout for one hand by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Personally I would like to a see a good layout for one hand. Hold the device in one hand and type with the other.

      Look into MessagEase. It uses a combination of taps and swipes. The most common letters are laid out on a 3x3 grid, and are accessed with a single tap. The next most common eight are a swipe from the periphery in towards the center, and the following eight are a swipe from the center outwards. Being a righty, I hold the phone in my left hand, and type with my right.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  43. Fix keyboards first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem is not so much QWERTY but the small inconveniences of existing keyboards as well as there overall horrible quality in comparison to the past. Start by swaping Ctrl and CapsLock, making the Shift keys and Enter large enough, and giving the keys a physical pressure point again as buckling spring and Cherry switches have.

    Oh, and telephones ... use them to make telephone calls and you'll be fine!

  44. wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who in the hell is interupting me for bs like this? seriously...

  45. Sign language might be a better option by ocratato · · Score: 1

    If I had to bet on the replacement for the keyboard it would be something like the Leap Motion paired with sign language - perhaps a one handed version.

    1. Re:Sign language might be a better option by airpor41 · · Score: 1

      I agree entirely that something like Leap Motion would be great. I have used QWERTY since 1964 and find tablets to be virtually read-only devices due to on-screen keyboards. Volume / position sensing of all fingers / hands / more (like Leap Motion) would seem to provide the opportunity to replace all on-screen keyboards and be so much more efficient (with the right ideas) that they should make substantial inroads into physical keyboards. I'm not certain actual sign language would be best but something like that has so many more degrees of freedom that the speed and accuracy should be amazing.

  46. Base 10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it time to end our love affair with the base 10 number system? I mean, there's LOTS of other numbers out there. Who says we have to use 10? In fact, given the way the world is abandoning their keyboards for smartphones, I propose it is time to implement base 0, which aligns perfectly with the number of physical keys on the majority of smartphones.

  47. Uh, looks pretty standard? by Theoden · · Score: 1

    This Dextr keyboard looks like basically the abc layout with the Z over on the left.
    I'm no human interface professional - but I can't imagine it being any more usable than an actual number pad, and maybe even less usable.
    Certainly not revolutionary.

  48. Dvorak type layout? by synapse7 · · Score: 1

    Why not put the most used letters near each other similar to the Dvorak keyboard layout. Most used letters could be placed in the center of the keypad with lesser used letters moving outward, maybe even in a circular pattern? Okay my mind is running and I'm probably not one to be suggesting a layout, but placing the most used letters near each other seems like a good idea.

  49. Followup question by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

    Is It Time To End Our Love Affair With the QWERTY Keyboard?

    Is it a slow news week?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Followup question by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Does Betteridge's Law of Headlines work?

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  50. "thier phones" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see what you did their...

  51. Re:For soft keyboards? Why not? by SignOfZeta · · Score: 1

    You can't change the keyboard layout (e.g., from QWERTY to Dvorak), but you can switch between several languages and language-specific keyboards (e.g., US English QWERTY to French Canadian QWERTY).

  52. Maybe for thumb keyboards by kiehlster · · Score: 1

    This might work for smart phones and devices where your thumbs or one hand tend to be the mode of entry, but not for two-handed typing. Take your frequently used articles, pronouns and conjunctions and try typing them with two hands. I think you'd find that much of the effort remains on one hand. Just like our body is coordinated to march with our left and right legs, it's naturally faster to type in a marching order with our left and right hands taking turns pressing keys. And this Dextr layout fails at that. When I read "alphabetical order" I knew it was doomed. Then I read even further to discover other failed logic like designing it to assist those with cerebral palsy, an unfortunate disability that I don't have, and that qwerty was designed to slow you down, when in reality it was designed to speed up typewriters. Dvorak made a good effort in taking some kind of efficiency into consideration. There's no efficiency with alphabetical order. Ease of use is a layman's term. Anything is easy once you're used to it, so it's more important to consider speed and comfort. If you want to make a keyboard for cerebral palsy victims, great! But don't expect me to find it useful.

  53. Alphabet? by trold · · Score: 1

    "We have put the keys in alphabetical order"

    Yes, we all remember the good old alphabet: "...ghZij..." WTF?

  54. Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If anything, his brilliantly named design is worse than QUERTY. The sole but imaginary problem it attempts to address is learning where the keys are -- it leverages the schoolchild's memorization of the sequence of English letters. It gives no consideration to human anatomy or letter frequency. What a joke.

    1. Re:Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you realize it is "qwerty" and considering it is by far the most popular layout in the world, you likely had to try pretty hard to get it wrong seeing as it is the first 6 letters on the top row of the keyboard.

  55. Reading Comp. by Bayoudegradeable · · Score: 2

    Hello Mr/Ms/Dr/Rev AC, I think you miscomprehended the statement. The title of this article/page is "Is it Time to End Our Love Affair with the QWERTY Keyboard." The answer, "No. That is all" means NO, IT IS NOT TIME TO END OUR LOVE AFFAIR. It was modded insightful because many people can read and understand the sentiment that it is not time to end the QWERTY keyboard. You yourself seem to defend the QWERTY, too. Which means, in theory, you should agree with "No. That is all." Instead you question how it became insightful. Well, you can lead a Slashdotter to water...

    --
    Sig Registration Form 34c_766(a) submitted to Ministry of Signature Management. Approval pending.
  56. Swype by jaminJay · · Score: 1

    I was only thinking on Dvorak-like remapping of the keyboard to improve Swype speeds and reduce incorrect word suggestions (i, o and u are next to each other, for example). Funny how the world works...

    --
    Leela: "Is all the work done by children?" Alien: "No, not the whipping."
  57. Not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The idea of an alphabetic keyboard split over five rows is NOT NEW! The Symbol handheld barcode scanners we use at work have had them for 15 years or more. The whole idea of a QWERTY (or DVORAK) keyboard is optimization for two-handed typing speed, when you are typing with two fingers on a cell phone (or one finger on a hand scanner) then optimization doesn't matter that much. Since no one is going to be doing office transcription full time on their cell phones (at least for a while yet) I think that it's premature to say QWERTY is obsolete, at least for English speakers.

  58. Speed gains by bradley13 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For what it's worth, I once spent a good deal of time testing this hypothesis. I spent a lot of time researching optimized layouts, picked one, and used it for a solid year - parallel to the QWERTY layout that I was still using at work. After a year, I was equally proficient with both (I could touch-type either at will, same error-rate, etc.), and I ran a number of tests.

    The results were quite consistent: about a 10% speed increase (from 60wpm to 66 wpm), no significant difference in the error rates. For what it's worth, at that point I decided for QWERTY. That's what most keyboards in the West are based on, and for a 10% gain in speed, you have the irritation of switching back-and-forth all the time. If you don't type a lot on both layouts, your speed-gain on one quickly becomes a massive speed-penalty on the other.

    Note: there is a nice little open-source application out there that will let you take your personal keyboard layout with you whereever you go. Unfortunately, it currently only supports Windows.

    For smart phones, the situation is obviously different. If you want to be able to type quickly, you pretty much need a predictive keyboard (something like SwiftKey, for example). Beyond that, it's simply a matter of being able to find the "keys" quickly. For anyone who also uses a normal keyboard, that means QWERTY.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Speed gains by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

      The results were quite consistent: about a 10% speed increase (from 60wpm to 66 wpm), no significant difference in the error rates.

      Interesting. Judging by an article I just read, you could have gotten at least that much improvement by switching to a mechanical-switch keyboard from a normal dome-type, and improved your error rate. Without the time invested in relearning how to type. (I'm not sure what that says about touch-screen keyboards... I guess that the quality of the touch-screen (how precise it is), and the quality of the software (detecting mis-hits, predictive text), is more important than layout.)

      http://shawnblanc.net/2012/04/clicky-keyboards/ if you're interested.

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    2. Re:Speed gains by bradley13 · · Score: 1

      Well, this was in the days of being young, single and having lots of spare time. I plead insanity.

      --
      Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    3. Re:Speed gains by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

      I wasn't making fun of your efforts. (On the contrary, I've seen people learn Dvorak, see the same 10% gain, and use that to insist on Dvorak from then on, damning to hell anyone who won't spend a year or two relearning to type. Your "meh" is wisdom itself.) Just saw the contrast between your experience and Blanc's and realised that the fine quality of the tool is probably more important than the gross design of the tool. Thus all our nerd-obsessing over keyboard layouts matters less than keyboard quality.

      [Noting for irony that I still use the $40 Microsoft-branded dome-type qwerty that came with my 8 year old computer.]

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    4. Re:Speed gains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but if you are a programmer and you don't want the following:

      - somebody typing on your keyboard
      - somebody trying to guess passwords using your keypboard

      then use Dvorak. I had a co-worker that used Dvorak, and I could never log into his machine!

  59. Yes and no by blamelager · · Score: 1

    QWERTY is rubbish for one-handed typing, so I can see the advantage of a layout like Dextr (and for one-thumbed-typing, the 3-letters-per-key with predictive is perfect).

    However, it *is* annoying as hell when a layout you know is messed around with (ever tried foreign keyboards..?) No compelling reason for QWERTY to be dropped from workstations and laptops.

    What's wrong with knowing both? Different tools for different jobs.

  60. Dextr is not that fast after all!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Missed the first post, don't worry time to go back to QWERTY, its the best for racing to the first post!!

  61. Re:DVORAK QWERTY is a myth by Hoffy97 · · Score: 0

    Subject should say DVORAK > QWERTY... stupid HTML...

  62. Remember Alphagrip by John3 · · Score: 1

    Alphagrip was also going to replace keyboards. I use the controller on occasion, it does function nicely as a game controller/keyboard but just like most people I am sticking with my QWERTY keyboard.

    --
    "We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
  63. New keyboards aren't for us by whois · · Score: 2

    The next or next-next generation is who is going to determine what new keyboard wins out. As an old-school mouse fps player I first derided and now am simply amazed people can play fps with any accuracy on joystick, but it makes sense that with enough precision and enough training it would work for people.

    The same with texting, I never got the number pad type "type with both thumbs" style, but kids caught on and learned all the key combinations and it got big, then they had contests to see how fast people could text on them. Then they rolled out smartphones and everyone went back to qwerty soft keyboards but still the idea was there that there was a new means of input.

    I don't think there will be an invented "better input method' though. Usually this stuff catches on by accident, or by repeated incremental refinements until it's naturally integrated into peoples lives. Using the joystick example, imagine someone trying to play an FPS with an atari or NES controller. While the phone layout hasn't changed for ages, I can't really see people texting on the old analog cellphones from the 80's and 90's, the buttons were made not for tactile feedback but to be reliable and keep the dirt out, you would quickly get tired and be frustrated at how hard the button had to be pressed and the accuracy.

    1. Re:New keyboards aren't for us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just make sure you are comparing to an FPS that doesn't provide AUTOAIM assistance on those joystick controls. (which they almost all do)

  64. Reinventing the wheel by twoears · · Score: 1

    The day this becomes popular will be the day the US goes metric. Nuff sed.

  65. 8pen @ Android by ranpel · · Score: 1

    Personally, I think that QWERTY is not broken.

    Now, having said that I found myself incredibly annoyed when I shifted off of Palm and onto an Android device. With fat fingers I tried every single keyboard I could find and they all suck with regard to accuracy.

    I discovered the 8pen typing app. At first look I quickly brushed it off but after trying yet another half-dozen available variants I gave it a try. Make no mistake - this is for small devices and is somewhat difficult to warm up to. It comes with a game. I played it until I got annoyed and then switched the device's input to it. It makes typing on this device fun. It has a quick 'out' in the form of a qwerty for panic situations but is otherwise the absolute very best option I've found.

    It's not a "keyboard" by any measure and more closely resembles the act of writing in cursive with your eyes closed.

    --
    \r
  66. No. by bmo · · Score: 1

    Can we stab editors that put headlines in the form of questions?

    Are we locked into QWERTY for familiarity's sake?

    Wrong question. The question also assumes that qwerty is only there because of familiarity and nothing else.

    We are "locked into" QWERTY because it does a pretty good job of dividing the labour of typing between both hands. There's this urban myth that QWERTY was designed to slow down typists. Nothing could be further from the truth, because in the old days, there used to be typing contests among different vendors of typewriters. QWERTY typists outdid other typists. It's that simple.

    Through Darwinian selection and market forces, we have one now that is pretty darn good. Some may say DVORAK may be better or another layout may be better and that the division of labour may be better, but the only advantage that DVORAK and others seem to have is speeding up learning for those who have never touched a keyboard, c.f., the Navy study on DVORAK. That's not much of a victory over a keyboard that is ubiquitous that you can use immediately anywhere once you've learned it. Yes QWERTY is familiar, but QWERTY became common because of other reasons than familiarity.

    The Dextr keyboard is in alphabetical order

    Oh god no. Kill it with fire then nuke it from orbit.

    I have used keyboards like this, and I have to say from personal experience that alphabetical keyboards SUCK all around. Alphabetical keyboards are only good for calculators using a portrait oriented keyboard and at that point, you're using the letters for variable storage and hexadecimal.

    --
    BMO

    1. Re:No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're not only too retarded to be able to not write your username at the bottom of every post you make WHEN IT'S ALREADY CLEARLY SHOWN ABOVE THE POST, but you're too retarded to even turn Bold off?

    2. Re:No. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      DVORAK may be better or another layout may be better

      DVORAK may be up to 5% faster and COLEMAK may be up to 10% faster. Neither are sufficient to overturn a worldwide inventory and trained population.

      One of the things I have on the back burner is to understand how steno works. That's supposedly 120% faster.

      The Dextr keyboard is in alphabetical order

      Oh god no. Kill it with fire then nuke it from orbit.

      ^this

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    3. Re:No. by bmo · · Score: 1

      Because of your post, I'm going to start bolding my name at the end.

      Have a nice day.

      --
      BMO

    4. Re:No. by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 1

      I switched from Qwerty to Colemak about 2 years ago (tried Dvorak for an hour and gave up). While there is a noticeable improvement in my typing speed (after the 2 month "transition" phase), the BIGGEST difference by far is that I can now type for 12 hours straight (done a few time when programming "in the zone") with absolutely NO finger or hand discomfort. I used to have to take breaks every hour when I used Qwerty or my fingers would start to ache. This by far is the absolute #1 reason why I will never switch back to Qwerty.

    5. Re:No. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      NO finger or hand discomfort

      Good to know, thanks. I hadn't considered that.

      Do you happen to hold your wrists differently when you're typing on a Colemak keyboard? I've attributed my 'immunity' to RSI on piano training, and keeping my wrists straight so the tendons don't have to bend. I've seen many people with RSI problems who bend their wrists, but I never considered whether the keyboard layout encourages this.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    6. Re:No. by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 1

      Not really, you just don't have to move your wrists nearly as much as around 70% of your typing (compared to about 30% on Qwerty) is done by simply pushing one of your fingers straight down. Check out http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak for some interesting statistics comparing Qwerty, Dvorak and Colemak.

  67. terms of use are unacceptable by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

    It snoops the data on your device including contacts and unspecified other data and transmits it to whomever will pay for it. Basically it's spyware. I don't care whether it works or not if that's the price.

  68. here are the real numbers by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    A while ago someone discovered the "ideal" layout for a keyboard and it was 4% faster. Wow, 4%. I can type 98WPM. What application is that not good enough for again? Courtroom transcriptionist? Closed captioning? Yeah, I work in IT so he can take his keyboard and shove it up his ass. Change for the sake of change is a very annoying, expensive pain in the ass and we have universal standards for a reason...like for example preventing something exactly like this.

  69. Little experiment by Coward+Anonymous · · Score: 2

    On your handheld of choice add a regional keyboard you are not familiar with. Say if you are American, use a French or German keyboard. If European vice versa.
    Type an e-mail or note. Note how you have no problem finding the keys unlike on a full size keyboard where you keep having to searching for the right keys.

    Apparently at the touch screen handheld size, the keyboard is small enough to fit in your entire field of vision so that the actual placement of the keys is not critical.

    It is possible that a physical keyboard layout at that size is important but for touch screens it seems to be irrelevant.

    1. Re:Little experiment by Inda · · Score: 1

      Interesting, and logical.

      I type very little on my phone - there's just no need.

      Google has pretty much cracked the voice recognition thing. Give it another 12 months and I expect it to be faultless, maybe even better than my own ears and brain... Once it can understand Taffy mumbling (hi colleague who shoulder surfs too much), that's perfection.

      Quills to pens to keyboards to voice recognition. It's inevitable.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    2. Re:Little experiment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not a touch-typer, are you? Take away QWERTY and I will be slower, period. Then again, I've reached the stage (after my first typing class 31 years ago,) where I do not think about looking for letters or where my fingers are going, I just type. I do the same with virtual keyboards - my stylus or thumbs are hitting buttons or screen before I've even thought about where it's going.
      Screw with my layout, all that goes away.

      (Besides, if it could have been done away with easily, Dvorak would now be ruling the keyboard world.)

  70. The Dextr keyboard comes wrapped in plastc [sic] by afeeney · · Score: 1

    Lots and lots of plastic wrap. Plus all of the coders are named Harry.

  71. Crocodile Tears! by Baby+Duck · · Score: 1

    They need to combine this with the Crocodile Keyboard to minimize mistaps. The patent might get in the way, though.

    --

    "Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins

  72. Re:For soft keyboards? Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    On Android the keyboard is just an app that extends InputMethodService and you can create an entirely new keyboard app as a replacement, and when the user sets it as their default keyboard it just becomes the keyboard for every input box everywhere. There's even example code in the SDK. Swype and Swiftkey are two popular third-party keyboard apps.

  73. Let me ask you this question... by ebinrock · · Score: 1

    ...Did we ever convert to the metric system? I rest my case.

  74. Re:For soft keyboards? Why not? by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    This is the right view. For hardware keyboard there is one main option (on i.e. phones with keypad ), but for software ones should be the ones you want, including, why not, this one. The only requisites is to find easily the key you want, to be able to be handled with just the thumb, one finger, or one hand, or 2, depends on the device (phone/tablet, touchscreen or hw keyboard), so should not be full, exclusive "winner", but to give options to people to choose with which ones be more comfortable. I don't think that will be the end of QWERTY keyboard,

  75. I'll add to it by gr8_phk · · Score: 2

    Even if we were to change layouts, it would NOT be to this one. They put all the vowels in a column highlighted with a different color. WTF? While they are common letters, so are a lot of others. In fact while txtng ppl tend 2 not use m. Disrupting the otherwise alphabetical order just for this seems like a poor choice. The other major problem I see is there are no numbers on this thing so it's not alpha-numeric, just alpha. I see no compelling features of this layout, but there are some stupid things about it.

    1. Re:I'll add to it by residieu · · Score: 1

      The other major problem I see is there are no numbers on this thing so it's not alpha-numeric, just alpha.

      That's standard for mobile keyboards for some reason. Even ones that claim to be "full-qwerty" keyboards leave off the number row and make you use the symbol modifier to access numbers.

    2. Re:I'll add to it by Unkl_Shvelven · · Score: 1

      Oh, how I miss my old G1's 5-row keyboard...

      Numbers, three rows of QWERTY, then another row for space, alt, &c... I wish I could have that keyboard on a modern android phone.

      --
      regular man whom love computer (Also, fuck beta).
  76. Already been done: dvorak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This has already been done. Dvorak is an optimized keyboard layout (for English).

  77. The ABCD layout isn't new by NoSleepDemon · · Score: 1

    The QWERTY layout was chosen because typists could type so fast with the standard ABCD layout that typewriters would jam, hence QWERTY was introduced to slow them down. What these guys have done is taken the old layout and re-introduced it. Top google link:

    http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question458.htm

  78. And while we're at it, by ElmoGonzo · · Score: 1

    Let's make all the Aussies to move their steering wheels to the correct side of the car and drive on the correct side of the road.

  79. Qwertibetical by epine · · Score: 1

    People's biggest hurdle learning to type is that qwerty jumbles up the established order of the alphabet.

    When the going gets tough, the tough change the order of the alphabet. I've got 50,000 hours invested in the Qwerty layout (minus 50 hours when I strayed into Dvorak in the last 1970s in a text processor I wrote myself). All I've got invested in alphabetical order is a couple of weeks when I was four years old, and scattered painful minutes with printed dictionaries and phonebooks I'd really like to forget.

    But no, I jest. It really would suck going to my favorite DVD rental outlet (with 10,000 titles in the back catalog) if they scrambled the drama shelves into Qwertical order. Us old farts just can't be pleased. Hell, why don't be just blow it all up and instigate ETAOIN SHRDLU? (I've been carrying around half of a different Romanji collation since Winograd without hardly knowing it.) This would have the added benefit of making any young person who ever walked into a physical DVD rental outlet familiar with power law distributions, and that can't be overrated as a cognitive boon.

    etaoin shrdlu gvymp bjfxck qwz

    There, I think I can remember that after a half hour. I was going to sort the back half into Qwghlmian order, not wanting to invent something arbitrary, but I can't find the full 16 on the internet. It's a sad day for geekhood.

  80. Re:For soft keyboards? Why not? by MozeeToby · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's not just the layout that can be replaced on android, you can use wildly different text input choices. Swiftkey has insanely good error correction and word prediction by a combination of an analysis of what you've written into your phone before and a heat map that invisibly adjusts the key position to be more consistent with where you actually hit it (if you always hit the area between 'e' and 'r' when you mean to hit 'e' it will begin register that area as 'e'). Swipe works by dragging from one letter to the next. Various voice recognition apps (including Google's) works through the same interface. And those are just the relatively obvious keyboard styles, there are other text input choices that are really trying new things. This is wildly out of date but still provide a glimpse of the kinds of things you can try out on Android.

  81. No, please, anything but this! by funkboy · · Score: 1

    This "dextr" thing looks horrible. We have a vertical-layout "abcdefg" keyboard on a couple of labelmakers here that looks just like this app, & I want to throw the damn things across the room each time I have to use one (so much so that we replaced them with qwerty units, not that I actually smashed one to get that to happen or anything...).

    It takes me twice as long to bang out a label on one. If the letters were all in a line then it would be easy to find the one you're looking for, as humans are accustomed to alphabetical order. But this is a grid of letters that happens to start with A & end with Z that is not indexed with anything people are familiar with, and it has more than three rows so it's even harder to find the letter you're looking for than on a qwerty, even for someone unfamiliar with qwerty. Hell, I bet I could create a message by selecting individual letters with the iPod's "album" scroll wheel interface faster than with this damn thing.

    Intelligent virtual keyboard solutions like Swype are the answer to the occasionally-needed keyboard on a touchscreen device. This is certainly not.

  82. The ideal layout by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The ideal smartphone layout would move letters that have similar placements in words as far apart from one another as possible.

    Bat
    Bet
    Bit
    Bot
    But

    That's a pretty trivial example, but it takes no effort to come up with examples where letters get confused for one another and a predictive text system has no way of knowing whether you meant to do that or not. I type 'of' or 'if' each in place of the other about a dozen times a day. It makes me nuts.

    The whole keyboard is trivially reachable, so I don't think that it's worth worrying about letter frequency and how fast you can move your fingers to type. We should be trying to make the keyboard properly enhance and support predictive text systems. The faster you can type out--without errors--the first recognisable part of a word, the faster the autocorrect system can make a guess for you. Don't fight it, USE it.

    Autocorrect is only makes ridiculous mistakes right now because of the way that we've got our letters grouped together. We end up sending it confusing cues, so of course it picks strange words.

    This 'dextr' layout looks terrible. Not only is it huge, it doesn't actually solve the problem. The vowels are cleverly stacked on top of one another, which is probably going to lead to just as many accidental vowel replacements as before, just different kinds. Letters that can often replace one another in words are still right next to each other.

    I believe there could be a better texting keyboard than qwerty, but this sure isn't it.

    1. Re:The ideal layout by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop using prediction and type your damn words. The best way to convey meaning is to say what you mean, not what your phone thought you meant!

    2. Re:The ideal layout by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moving the I key on a QWERTY keyboard (swap it with N, perhaps?) would do wonders to deal with this problem, since it would break up the block of three vowels in a row.

    3. Re:The ideal layout by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

      "I type 'of' or 'if' each in place of the other about a dozen times a day. It makes me nuts."

      Agreed, this is why I don't really like swype. (I like the idea, and it seems much faster until I hit three or four of those words in a row... of/if, out/it/or, to/top, you/toy...)

      Hmmm, we're not going to replace qwerty, but I wonder if you could simply resize the keys in the qwerty layout, enlarge the areas of predictive-text's greatest confusion (such as TYUIOP), and reduce the size of groups it only needs a approximate hit (DFG/CVB)?

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    4. Re:The ideal layout by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Autocorrect is only makes ridiculous mistakes right now because of the way that we've got our letters grouped together. We end up sending it confusing cues, so of course it picks strange words.

      This 'dextr' layout looks terrible. Not only is it huge, it doesn't actually solve the problem. The vowels are cleverly stacked on top of one another, which is probably going to lead to just as many accidental vowel replacements as before, just different kinds. Letters that can often replace one another in words are still right next to each other.

      I believe there could be a better texting keyboard than qwerty, but this sure isn't it.

      Anyone who has seen the site damnyouautocorrect.com would realize that it isn't just the placement of the keys that makes autocorrect do stupid things. Plus, I want to be able to write things that are not in the dictionary, like people or street names etc. I find 8pen to be a nice input method for a touch screen. Why do we even need a keyboard on a touch interface. I used the palm pilot and wrote their hand writing related letters then. Now I write lots of O's and 8's to draw my letters on the screen with no autocorrect messing things up for me! :-)

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    5. Re:The ideal layout by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Autocorrect is only makes ridiculous mistakes right now because of the way that we've got our letters grouped together. We end up sending it confusing cues, so of course it picks strange words.

      This 'dextr' layout looks terrible. Not only is it huge, it doesn't actually solve the problem. The vowels are cleverly stacked on top of one another, which is probably going to lead to just as many accidental vowel replacements as before, just different kinds. Letters that can often replace one another in words are still right next to each other.

      I believe there could be a better texting keyboard than qwerty, but this sure isn't it.

      Anyone who has seen the site damnyouautocorrect.com would realize that it isn't just the placement of the keys that causes autocorrect to make stupid mistakes. I like to be able to write people or street names without my keyboard changing things on me. I find it the most irritating thing to have to keep correcting what autocorrect changes on me. Why should we even use a keyboard at all when writing on a touch screen? Do we use one for paper? I used to use the Palm Pilot hand writing related letters for that device and now I use 8pen for my Android. So all my writing is done with O's and 8's and I can write whatever I want without some stupid dictionary trying to guess what I meant and change it for me.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
  83. Re:For soft keyboards? Why not? by MachDelta · · Score: 1

    I'm hooked on Swype myself, but if you're looking for alternate layouts try the Hacker's Keyboard. You can switch between a whole list of layouts (mostly for different languages) but QWERTY and DVORAK are among the options. It's great for working a CLI too, since most Android keyboards don't have easily accessible escape, tab, ctrl keys.

  84. Please oh please no. by kiriath · · Score: 1

    This makes me sick inside.

  85. Odin protect us from better mousetraps. by msmith13 · · Score: 1

    It's a wonder that people with genuinely useful innovations ever prevail, considering the background noise of useless tweakery they have to contend with. Infomercial fortunes are built on ideas like these.

  86. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  87. to late by Pirulo · · Score: 1

    qwerty is to keyboard what windows almost to the desktop

  88. Yay, another weird keyboard layout. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The others all failed, but I bet this one is just so awesome that everyone will migrate to it. It is THE QWERTY KILLER.

    I propose a new rule that in order to be taken seriously when proposing a newly invented layout, the inventor first has to be familiar with every single layout invented in the past century and provide evidence in which ways the new one is superior.

  89. Don't expect big changes by glebovitz · · Score: 1

    I had a business in 2000 that connected to T9 enabled phones to Exchange. IT Managers were excited about the idea because it was much lower cost than two way Blackberrys. I found T9 easy to use because the predictive text feature worked 99% of the time. The professionals hated it. Not because it didn't work, but because there was a learning curve.

    5 years later, teenagers and college students were expert at T9 for texting. My 30 year old niece tells me that she was just as fast at using T9 as the touch QWERY keyboard on her iPad.

    I think this is an interesting idea that will be obsolete before it catches on.

  90. No. by JustAnotherIdiot · · Score: 1

    The only change in keyboard I will accept is a transition from keyboard to devices simply reading your mid.

    --
    What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
  91. Dovorak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nobody mentioned this abortion yet?

  92. Who cares by Hyperhaplo · · Score: 1

    For smart phones you can just install another keyboard and use it, and switch keyboards easily. If this entrepreneurial jacky wants to put his hand in then by all means. The market will decide..

    Good luck taking on Swype though..

    --
    You have a sick, twisted mind. Please subscribe me to your newsletter.
  93. DVORAK & Emacs Pinky by unixisc · · Score: 1

    One thing I wonder - if one was an Emacs user, would a DVORAK keyboard help get over the Emacs Pinky problem, where people use their pinky fingers @ times to hit the control or alt keys?

    1. Re:DVORAK & Emacs Pinky by uigrad_2000 · · Score: 1

      Control and Alt do not change for the Dvorak layouts. The symbol keys that are different are ;',.[]/= and their shifted counterparts.

      Dvorak does make many unix commands easier, but there is one big exception: ls. I always alias it because it is just so hard to type on dvorak.

      --
      Free unix account: freeshell.org
    2. Re:DVORAK & Emacs Pinky by WrecklessSandwich · · Score: 2

      There's a much bigger problem with Dvorak on a nix system: the entire ls -l command is on the right pinky. It's seriously physically painful. If you want to try a different layout, go for Colemak instead. It's slightly better than QWERTY while only moving 17 QWERTY keys (compared to 33 for Dvorak), which makes it much easier to learn as well as switch back and forth with QWERTY on the fly.

    3. Re:DVORAK & Emacs Pinky by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 2

      Actually, the best solution to that problem is the Kinesis ergonomic keyboards. Ctrl, Alt and Win/Command are thumb actuated keys, as are return and backspace. I'm a long-time emacs user, and it solved a lot of those pinky issues for me.

      Not cheap, though. Still, worth it if you want to preserve your hands.

    4. Re:DVORAK & Emacs Pinky by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      Only on their HURD operating system.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
  94. I prefer a keyboard with different NUMPAD by Provocateur · · Score: 1

    They are all stuck with 789 at the top row. I would prefer a phone-style keypad, not just with 123 as top row, but also have the abc-def etc.

    --
    WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
  95. Portly by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    His layout is dumb -- here's why: QWERTY is a designed layout, with common keys in the middle, rare keys on the edges, and each vowel has its own finger. Dvorak layout is supposedly even more efficient.

    This layour is just alphabetical. Someone should produce an optimized layout. Yes, you'll have to train but you're gonna have to train to the new layout of his anyway. It's silly to trade off long-term speed for a few days of marginally easier typing before you learn the positions automatically anyway.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  96. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  97. New keyboard-free laptop is going to be popular by Shompol · · Score: 1
  98. Better Keyboard = Microphone by rbrightwell · · Score: 1

    The keyboard of the future is the microphone. A new layout is too little too late.

    1. Re:Better Keyboard = Microphone by Trip6 · · Score: 1

      Absolutely.

      --
      I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
  99. I used to think Dextr was the best by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to think Dextr was the best, but for the past year I've switched to BrknBad and wouldn't go back. I've never even seen Qwerty, sounds Swedish to me.

  100. Typing is dead, long live keyboarding by Rambo+Tribble · · Score: 1

    That amazingly adaptable, (and quirky), organ, the brain, will map our fingers to the letters, no matter their arrangement. That takes care of familiarity, which leaves standardization as the crux question.

    The QWERTY layout became a standard because of dictation. The highest speeds for typing are generally achieved in transcription. Typing while composing just takes longer. QWERTY popularity became a standard in large part because it allowed professional typists to move between work environments and still have familiar tools.

    With the flexibility of modern key-mapping, we can all have our own, personalized keyboards, but what purpose would it serve? The circular argument, "QWERTY is a standard because QWERTY is a standard," is inescapable in its logic. It is arbitrary, but success dictates standards and it is generally beneficial to embrace successful standards. Most of the world drives on the right side of the road, those who don't pay a premium for the difference.

  101. No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just like every other retarded rhetorical question just like this about any topic.

  102. Visitor to your desk, in a row? shifty is bad by pentalive · · Score: 1

    Helpdesk/desktop support: I -could- go to another keyboard, but then when I had to visit a different desk what then? Oh, and dextr, alphabetically sorted? really? (actually mostly alphabetically sorted so the vowels line up..) The part I hate about my iPod keyboard is that I have to switch to get to numbers or special chars. passwords become extra painful.

  103. Typewriter by Rainbowdash · · Score: 0

    If the layout changed I couldn't type typewriter with only the top row of my keyboard.

    And if I couldn't do that there would be no reason whatsoever to use a computer, I'd start living in the woods hunting bear for food.

  104. Straw man much? by charlesbakerharris · · Score: 2

    Nobody has a "love affair" with the QWERTY keyboard. It's just the de facto standard since it's been used for ages. Dumb headline.

  105. FITALY by Insightfill · · Score: 2

    I always liked the FITALY keyboard on the old Palm Pilots for single finger/stylus entry. Letters were arranged the common letters in the middle (e, n) and they get progressively less common as you move out. It minimizes the amount of travel of the input device.

    1. Re:FITALY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where is the punctuation? If you're not using punctuation or letter, morse might be faster.

    2. Re:FITALY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that design could be improved by having two "common zones" so thumbs don't collide.

  106. Alphabetetical is not best for Typing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every few years this comes up, people assuming that Alphabetical Order is somehow better for typing. The order of the alphabet is largely arbitrary, while QWERTY was carefully planned to balanced out the keys that are used, to ensure you alternate between left and right hand on most strokes, maximizing typing speed and minimizing errors.

    That said, that seems like a good idea for phones, but is certainly in no way going to replace QWERTY. At this stage in the game, for something to actually replace QWERTY would have to be mindblowingly better to justify the trillions of collective hours it will take to retrain everyone.

  107. "Does Betteridge's Law Apply to This Headline?". by pentalive · · Score: 1

    Help me!, Norman Coordinate! Beep beeeb beep beeeeeeeeee....

  108. Open mike by paiute · · Score: 1

    My design has only one key. You press it while yelling the letter you want it to type."H!"..."E!"..."L!"..."L!"..."O!"

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  109. No by ravenswood1000 · · Score: 1

    No

  110. Bettridge this headline... by pentalive · · Score: 1

    "Is Microsoft (er Apple? Google?) Evil?" ooh look, I made a new verb.

  111. Stupid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "What people don't realise is there is already a second keyboard out there that is already way more popular than QWERTY that requires no lessons, that people pick up straight away, and it's the same keyboard that kick started the mobile revolution.

    Do you know what keyboard I am talking about? The one you have on your phone, the number pad."

    Too bad the smartphone world has already jumped to QWERTY. My phone's flip-out keyboard is QWERTY. My Android device's touch-keyboard is QWERTY. He's trying to fill a niche that doesn't exist.

  112. I want a typing ball keyboard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As we now have digital displays, so the downside of not seeing your writing is no longer present.

  113. dude, you missed a good joke by circletimessquare · · Score: 2

    you should have just said:

    "i'm an esperanto speaking dvorak keyboard user, you insensitive clod!"

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  114. Yeah ok. by Georules · · Score: 1

    The goal with qwerty was to spread the typewriter arms so they don't jam while maintaining typing speed. You can't just claim it was to slow typists down. I'd like to see a study comparing alphabetical keyboards to querty, if one was possible, as exposure bias would be massive. There is no reason why alphabetical order is the best, except for finding the order in a way it was first taught (which could be changed as well).

  115. the OBSCENE elephant in the GUI circus tent by epine · · Score: 1

    I had fun writing that, but you know what's so pathetic about the mere existence of this discussion thread it makes me puke? The fucking elephant in the GUI circus tent? It's that I don't carry around some digital fob declaring my PERSONAL investments in digital skills which I've acquired through hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of hours of diligence and rote. Not my favorite fucking colour or background wallpaper. The fact that before the IBM PC arrived I had mastered the CTRL key positioned beside the A key as god intended. What's the Caps Lock key for, huh? To express anger (if you're an idiot) or TO BECOME ANGRY if you're not an idiot and you strike it by accident. No Caps Lock key was depressed in the previous sentence. It hardly slowed me down AT FUCKING ALL. The buggering of the CTRL key was my first experience with a level of outrage surpassed in intensity only by the despair and agony of the hard landing that followed my first hopelessly naive love affair. Both of these were major life lessons in learned helplessness. In my relationships with women, after much work, I managed to restore balance to the force. In my relationship with technology the situation is as bleak as ever. I'm composing this abortion from the void on Ubuntu fucking 10.10, the fat multimonitor GUI of which has absorbed some minor chunk of thousands (thankfully not yet tens of thousands) of hours of my life and energy. I've thrown away more, so many times I've lost count. Yet still something inside me protests. I've not yet met my personal Room 101. I still dare to dream. Dare to dream that I will someday sit down in front of a system that queries first MY FUCKING INVESTMENTS before flaunting Steve's superior personal aesthetic.

    What else do I convey with my GUI fob? That arrays are ZERO ORIGIN as god intended (fucking up the integers is the work of man). Any computer language I sit down to use which supports ZERO ORIGIN had better switch it on, automatically, if the option exists. How many times do I need to repeat myself with every goddam console I approach?

    And how about hidden file extensions in file browsers? Inside my fob of personal decree, written in blood letters of eternal wrath, DON'T YOU EVER DO THAT AGAIN if you value your digital signals.

    This is why after a hard day on the keyboard we sit around watching the Sopranos. People don't mess with Tony (or his counterparts in New York) without counting their gunships. Pretty much every human being in a David Chase universe is a loathsome creature, but we have such a hideous subjugated lust for something to take us seriously that we sit around and lap it up.

    My electrogadgets have uniformly trained me to be too terrified to care. I take what I need, form no attachments by choice, and end up regretting any attachment I can't help though baseline Pavlovian reflex. Thank you, Canonical, for driving the final stake through my heart. I can die now, leaving nothing behind.

  116. Read the EULA by ErichTheWebGuy · · Score: 1

    Section (3) (a) reads in part: "Users acknowledge that certain details may be provided to third parties ... provision of such information is necessary for IP owner to operate its business" and (3) (b) reads in part: " Users acknowledge that information about them may be transmitted between countries to other entities that IP owner has commercial contracts with" Sounds legit - what could possibly go wrong?

    --
    bash: rtfm: command not found
  117. Additional feature by hardie · · Score: 1

    Does Dextr come in metric?
    --
    still fond of feet, inches and fortnights

  118. Not even for mobile phones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Regarding a mobile phone keyboard (touchscreen based) there are some points to take in mind:
    1. You don't touch type using a mobile phone, you always type looking at the keyboard.
    2. There is no tactil feel so you have to see or hear the key pressed.
    Using an ABC...Z layout can make sence for somebody who have never used a keyboard before, but is really annoying after some time.
    There are many layouts out there for mobile phones and since there is no hardware keyboard you can use a program like android's alternate keyboard to create your own layout, fixed problem.
    I use the colemak layout, i found it very pleasent to type on a mechanical keyboard but when it comes to a touchscreen phone, i see no diference, probably because colemak is mostly designed to alternate fingers on the same hand as opposed to dvorak which is designed to alternate between hands, so in colemak usually the most common silabes have the letter nears each other so i think dvorak could be a better choise, or something like the carplax research with some rules applied to define a new layout to a smartphone will be the best way to type in such keyboard. to a smartphone http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/ .
    And for those who are interested in a new computer keyboard i am working on a libre design keyboard, the keyboard is known as the 'key64' our motto is: 'No more keys than you can type on' and the website is located at http://www.key64.org/ the key64 is a Libre * Design, Minimalist, Ergonomic, Splittable, Symmetric, Compact 64 Keys, Eco-Friendly, Durable, Native Colemak Keyboard, Embedded Mouse and Firmware Programmable USB Keyboard, right now i have the all the schematics and pcb ready to built the pcb and i hope to finish the first prototype by the end of this month, there is also some forks of the project that you want to check out, all of then are listed on the website.

  119. There are already 2 optimal keyboard layouts... by mengel · · Score: 1

    There's Dvorak (for two-handed typing) and Fitaly for stylus/one-finger operation.

    Both are designed for minimum finger travel (in English, anyhow). I doubt seriously that this "new" layout improves upon them in any signifigant fashion, and (from the Wikipidia Dvorak article):

    In 1956, a General Services Administration study by Earle Strong, which included an experiment involving ten experienced government typists, concluded that Dvorak training would never be able to amortize its costs.

    So if you wanted to switch in any major fashion, you always have to get poeple ewho already type on some other layout to switch, and it's not generally cost effective.

    --
    - "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men" -- Blue Oyster Cult, 'Godzilla'
  120. drifting nomads of cool by epine · · Score: 1

    I don't let that out often (it's unbecoming), so let's finish the scene.

    Suppose Steve Supremo sits down with Tony Soprano and starts to impose Steve's aesthetic imperative on the fat clown with Steve's characteristic insistence and charm? Well, the bite out of the Apple logo would quickly come to represent the nut sack of his former masculinity mumping his jowls.

    Those of us who generate, rather than borrow, our force of being all feel that way about the ways and customs of the Old Country. There's an investment in where you've been and who you are that digital technology just can't wait to castrate, casting us adrift as the nomads of cool.

    1. Re:drifting nomads of cool by chilvence · · Score: 1

      Go out side. They have sunshine and trees there.

  121. Wgats wtong witj thw cuttent latout/ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wurls for me kust finw.

  122. Someone describe it please by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    Link is being slashdotted. Is this like those old Blackberry keyboards that had 2 letters on each key? DO NOT WANT!

    It'll take a big improvement to be worth losing the familiarity of QWERTY, and if it puts multiple letters on one key then screw that.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  123. Nothing special about Now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Given the way the world is abandoning their keyboards for smartphones

    QWERTY is a local optimum that we can't easily escape for as long as we're typing. I think I get the strategy: everyone's going to stop typing (for a while? forever?) so now it's time to escape.

    The problem with that, is the premise is totally wrong. Nobody's stopped typing. We haven't abandoned our keyboards for smartphones and there's no reason to think we have, unless you simply count the fact that a lot of people are using smartphones. And that's a bullshit argument: nobody is using those for significant text entry. Smartphones are either additive (the person already has another machine with keyboard, and that person is still trapped in QWERTY) or they're for people who didn't need a PC or keyboard anyway, so those people weren't QWERTY prisoners to begin with. You might shift that second group.. except why would they take up your new design? They don't care about typing anyway.

    Nothing has actually changed. The conditions that have kept us in the local optimum, are still here.

    One of the things I see people constantly getting wrong about PCs, is that they see the growth rate falling, so they take that as a sign PCs are going away. Excuse me, but one doesn't imply the other. Where's your evidence that the number of deployed PCs is shrinking? Oh, that's right: you you don't have any.

    Escaping QWERTY is going to be hard. Maybe (?) you can do it, but there isn't anything special happening right now, which makes it easier.

  124. Revolutionize the Market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not until Apple ships a computer/device with a different layout will it happen.

    The //c had Dvorak toggle. I have Dvorak on my iPhone and it's very good.

  125. Why? by NiallGriff · · Score: 1

    I don't see any compelling reason to switch keyboard layouts. I've been typing on QWERTY my whole life, switching to something else would require me to retrain years of muscle memory, for no real benefit.

  126. Is it time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to herd an entire planet's worth of cats?

  127. Timing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damn. Just when I finally learned how to type at a reasonable speed...

  128. Re:For soft keyboards? Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are plenty of different keyboards with different layouts you can download, I'm looking at a Dvorak keyboard in the Play Store right now. I don't think GP was saying you could just change an option on the standard Android Keyboard, just that there are other keyboards you can download and install.

  129. Bad answer to a bad question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Qwerty is certainly not perfect, but most of the tools I use daily as a programmer were designed based on that layout. Would we use ctrl-C ctrl-V to copy paste if those letters were on the other side of the keyboard? Do you know anyone who would rather use an azerty layout than use a qwerty one to code in C (or C++, C#, Java, JavaScript, ...) ? Has anyone in his sane mind tried to use a mac azerty keyboard with emacs / ssh (need a pipe for a shell command? alt+shift+L, ni a ~? alt+shift+N... and it is not written on the damn keyboard...)?

    In my opinion if anything should change about keyboards, it is that they should be easily remappable. So the good question would be: when the hell will we find affordable optimus keyboard clones? If I could code using a US qwerty layout and write emails using a french azerty layout without switching physical keyboards then I would be happy. Adding another layout without any use for it is just plain stupidity...

  130. Worse than one-dimensional, one-directional by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's actually even worse, at least for me. I don't conceive of the alphabet as a one-dimensional string. If I did, I would have absolutely no problem reciting it backwards since I could just read it off.

    So not only is it one-dimensional, it's strongly (but not entirely) one-directional.

  131. Inefficiency is good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, studies have shown that QWERTY is an inefficient keyboard for the English language. However, you have to take into account that, except for maybe 1-2 bln. people, the other part and the big majority has to deal regularly with international layouts. Since different languages would require completely different layouts to optimize typing, it would create a complete mess whenever you have to switch keyboards.

    That is why QWERTY is there to stay. QWERTY is standard and inefficient but it is so for everyone at the same time!

  132. We need less keys by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    On screen keyboards are small and cramped. We don't need to rearrange the keys we need to rethink the whole thing.

    WPM people have been able to get with this thing is amazing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype

    The great thing about software overlays for input is they are reconfigurable allowing experimentation and user choice with little cost. All manners of corded schemes are now possible thanks to multi-touch.

  133. I key Dvorak as my handle indicates. by aoeu · · Score: 1

    The change I most want to see adopted is getting rid of the slant and getting the columns aligned vertically. This is a legacy of manual typewriters and should have been corrected when offices went to electrics.

    --
    All your database are belong to U.S.
  134. NO. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You'll get my QWERTY keyboard when you pry it out of my cold, dead hands.

    I learned QWERTY over 25 years ago and I'm not going to be bothered to re-learn how to type.
    Similarly, any keyboard I buy for myself will have "= \ Backspace" in the top right corner, with a big reverse-L-shaped ENTER key above it. I can't stand having the single-row ENTER key or the backslash anywhere else. The same goes for screwing around with the keys above the arrow keys, or removing any of them or shoving them down to add "power" buttons (that don't work).

  135. Telling the OS what keyboard you have by billstewart · · Score: 1

    It's not a manual typewriter. It's an input device for an operating system that can support a wide range of keyboards. So if you know how to touch-type for an AZERTY or Swiss-German keyboard, tell the OS that that's what you're using, don't look at the keys, and just touch-type. (And remember to set it back to the original when you're done :-)

    My mother's manual typewriter didn't have 1 or 0 on it, but it was a QWERTY which also had accent marks and a couple of extra characters such as ç and ñ, for writing French and Spanish. I don't remember if it had any of the Scandinavian accents and weird letters.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  136. It's worse than that by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

    Nearly all the tasks were speed was limited by typing did go away with the advent of computer networks. Nowadays typing speed is botlenecked by cognitive speed. People (with a minimal amount of practice) simply type faster than they think, there is no reason go improve further.

  137. Nope, not even a contender by TheSkepticalOptimist · · Score: 1

    Epic fail.

    Time and time again its been proven that sequential listing of the alphabet is NOT the optimal arrangement of keys. Certain characters are used more often then others, so placement of those character keys in easier to access locations is preferred over "logical" order.

    Also, having 5 rows of characters versus 3 wastes more screen space.

    I will agree that QWERTY is not the best arrangement for on screen keyboards, but this is not an acceptable replacement either.

    --
    I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
  138. No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No.

    It is not time. It never will be time.

  139. And golly G wiz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While we're at it what up with those outdated and obsolete pointing devices? And display screens!?! Yeah they need to go too..

  140. QWERTY myth is a myth by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

    No. Sholes arranged the keys so the arms wouldn't jam in order to allow typists to type faster. Typewriter salesmen would show this feature off for managers by having a speed contest with groups of typists on rival brands with different layouts, and QWERTY would always win. Even if you could physically hit the keys faster on another layout, you'd have to slow down to keep it from jamming. It's why QWERTY became popular, then standard, it was faster. Faster layouts only became possible once the arm mechanism improved to eliminate jamming, but by then the QWERTY patent had ended and QWERTY was already standard. [No company was going to shut down their entire typing pool to wait six months for them to retrain on Dvorak, on the chance that maybe it was 10% faster.]

    http://home.earthlink.net/~dcrehr/whyqwert.html

    --
    Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    1. Re:QWERTY myth is a myth by NoSleepDemon · · Score: 1

      That's what I said.

    2. Re:QWERTY myth is a myth by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

      No, it's the opposite of what you said:

      "QWERTY was introduced to slow them down."

      Sholes was not trying to slow typists down to the speed of the mechanism, he spread the mechanism out so it can keep up with the speed of the typist.

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    3. Re:QWERTY myth is a myth by NoSleepDemon · · Score: 1

      Yep I see my logic bomb there now, must be one of those days.

  141. Ooh! Ooh! I know! by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    In order to maximize mental flexibility, the keyboard should be remapped with each login. The keycaps should all be blank (cutting production cost), forcing the user to discover and memorize each new layout by experiment.

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  142. *caugh* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And here I was thinking it was cookie crumbs and dried hand lotion. Now someone tells me it's built in to the design..

  143. Fuck off our carriages, Napoleon. by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

    Experiments have shown that steering with your dominant hand is safer, reducing accidents. Since most people are right handed, the proper English RHD makes for safer drivers than the hateful French LHD that you use.

    --
    Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
  144. Accidental success... by tlambert · · Score: 1

    The typo issue is only part of the QWERTY benefit.

    It also places the keys you are most likely to type next, at least in English, on different hands, which if you can do different things with your hands, also makes for faster typing (some people can't; tends to make them bad piano players).

    It additionally has the benefit of allowing matrix keyboards take less expensive electronics by reducing the ghost key suppression to unlikely intersections of keys (three keys have to have one pair share a row and one pair a column and all three be down at the same time to trigger ghosting). The alternative would be frequency keying or split row matrices or diodes on each key to allow row/column major scanning and detection.

  145. Lame by pubwvj · · Score: 1

    People have been trying to to replace the QWERTY keyboard for about 100 years. Lots of "better" keyboards have been proposed. None have caught on.

    The fact of the matter is once you learn it you can go very, very fast on the QWERTY. I touch type at about 135 wpm sustained. I knew someone who was even faster. Most people I know can do 35 to 55 wpm easily. Sure, I could go faster with a more efficient keyboard but they're not standardized and standards matter, a lot.

    What is awful is these new on-screen keyboards with all their weird layouts and no feedback.

  146. Of Course It Is! by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

    Now, let's have a nice long troll about Dvorak keyboard layouts, etc.

    Maybe someone can chime in with some rambling about their 'special' IBM Model M keyboard. My personal favorite is the IBM 84 key PC-AT keyboard. The function keys on the side are nice,

  147. Right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It will happen right after the US adopts the metric system and the French adopt English as their national language.

  148. Meanwhile, in the UK... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... traffic researchers have determined that driving on the left side of the road is more efficient than driving on the "dysfunctional" right side of the road. Is now the time to convert the rest of the world to driving on the left?

  149. QWERTY is fine; columns are not by FitForTheSun · · Score: 1

    I came here to say that QWERTY as a layout isn't the problem. The problem is the staggered keys. I used to own a Fingerworks keyboard, which was awesome, and now I own a Truly Ergonomic keyboard, which is awesome. With keys laid out in columns, my wrists don't constantly twitch back and forth while typing. With some of the special keys moved to the center of the keyboard, I can hit them with my strong index fingers instead of my weak pinkies. I got used to the Truly Ergonomic in about a day and a half. The other reason I like the TE is that it did away with the useless numberpad, which just sits there like a goiter on the side of most keyboards, forcing me to reach four times farther to find my mouse with my right hand.

    If I were the king of keyboards, this is the change I would make as a gift to the world. People can cleave to their beloved layout (including me, I think qwerty is fine), and we can slightly evolve the keyboard in a way that will improve health and typing speed. All keyboards should have columnar layouts.

  150. Adapt computers to individuals by quixote9 · · Score: 1

    Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Vote parent +20.

    Why are monolithic methods even discussed any more when we're talking about configurable computers? Well? Why?

  151. ãfããfãfãï¼ï by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's see:

    æ--¥æoeäããããã(TM)ï¼åfããfãfããfãã(TM)ï¼Zåäåï¼Y
    ï½ï½ï½OEï½OEãï½--ï½ï½ï½"ï½ãï½ï½OEï½ï½ï½ï½Zï½ï½ï½...ï½'ï½ï½fï¼
    Î'Ðnwоrd ÐvÐÑÑ-оn tÐÑ...t tÐÑt.
    ÑáááOEáOE áááÑ-ÑááOEÑ ÑáÑÑ.
    ÏαÉÉÏÊ ÏÏââ® âÏ©âá(TM)á(TM) Êâ®ÏÊ

    Nope, unicode is still not here.

  152. Re:For soft keyboards? Why not? by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

    AnySoftKeyboard is an easy app to change the layout.

    --
    Not a sentence!
  153. no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's not... qwerty keyboards aren't going anywhere

  154. I am also using Colemak by Burz · · Score: 1

    Its much more comfortable to type with than qwerty (a lot less finger movement), and as of 10.7 Lion it comes built-into Mac OS X so there is nothing extra to install.

  155. QWERTY Is Superior by sudonim2 · · Score: 1

    History lesson: the QWERTY keyboard was adobted as the English-language standard keyboard on typwriters. This was because, with most words, including most common words, you alternate which side of the keyboad your stroke lands. This helps reduce the amount of times the hammers in mechanical typewritters will jam. This sped up typing time considerably. DVORAK isn't a faster keyboard layout. It's simply more ergonomic, which carries more weight once you get rid of hammers in typewritters. Fast-forward to today: QWERTY keyboards are standard on almost all smartphones. But, as smartphones lack hammers, what are they most pressing criteria for a mobile keyboard? What are the greatest limitation to using mobile keyboards? The size of the keys are a major obstacle, but QWERTY is actually a rather efficient layout to use with auto-correct. The other major limitation is the fact that you only have two digits available for input, the two thumbs. Thus the most optimal keyboard is one where you alternate the sides of the keyboard between strokes as often as possible. So what's the most efficient layout for smartphones? One that's easy to use auto-correct with. One that alternates the side of keyboard used as frequently as possible. In other words the one we just happened to already use. So, upon consideration, QWERTY should be standard on all smartphones.

  156. QWERTY Keyboard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really don't think that QWERTY keyboard was designed to make typing easier or any other such crap.

    How many of you guys realize that the first row of the QWERTY keyboard, contains all alphabets of word "TYPEWRITER"

    That's no coincidence an it was designed that way to carry over that legacy of typewrite,r to future typing devices like PC and Phones. .

  157. Screen rotation, QWERTY. by Dragoniel · · Score: 1

    Pretty much every touchscreen smartphone can operate sideways. QWERTY keyboard is very comfortable when typing with 2 thumbs. There is no way in Hell I would switch to something different from PC standard. It makes no sense.

  158. this is innovative? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, but there seems to be very little thought put into this keyboard. It seems like the obvious alpha phase of the project. Inevitably in the beta phase, the keys will get rearranged. Wait a minute, these guys are using scrum, so the keys will be "refactored" - and it will be a paired process. As the project is about to enter production, the testers will have been screaming for DVORAK or FITALY based on experimental evidence as to its improved efficiency, but that ideal will get prioritized into the product backlog and then disappear.

  159. Not a panacea by kmoser · · Score: 1

    The video implies with this new layout you won't generate typos and you won't experience autocorrect failure. Problem is, with ANY small virtual keyboard (meaning without feedback or tactile differentiation between individual keys) you'll press the wrong key fairly often. That means typos. And with typos (or even without) come autocorrect suggestions, and with autocorrect suggestions come autocorrect failure. Until computers have a direct link to your brain to interpret what you typed into what you meant to type, this will always be the case.

  160. Why isn't it qwer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't type the 'ty' efficiently. People would still know what you meant.

    Are they *trying* to show the shortcomings of the layout?

    Unless perhaps you use a pianist fingering onto the 3rd finger of the left hand for the 't'.

    Hmm. It might be interesting to layout a keyboard like a keyboard.

    Hmm.

  161. FITALY for one-finger typing by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Dextr's kind of cute, though most studies have found that for two-handed typing, there isn't actually much performance difference between layouts, once people have time to adjust to them. And while Dvorak may have been a bit better designed, "alternating hands" was pretty much the goal of QWERTY as well, because that kept keys from jamming.

    FITALY is a keypad design intended for one-finger (or one-stylus) usage. The design paid attention not only to what letters are used most often, but also what letters are often used near each other, and seems to be fairly efficient. Unfortunately, due to the magic of Software Patents, you may never get to use it, but there are a few implementations out there. (It was patented in 1996, back in Palm Pilot days, but could probably be easily adapted for modern touchscreen smartphones, if the patent holder is still actively developing it.)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  162. Model M by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You wore out your Model M?! Or did it break? They can be repaired, you know.

    I'll wait until the keytops on my Model M have faded to illegiblility. It might be some time.

    And, yes, I do have a spare.
    --
    Tomorrow's lesson is called "Not everybody is like me."

  163. DOES it MATTER? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    considering the number of key-remapping applications that exist for all platforms, does it really matter WHAT your keyboard looks like?

    they'll NEVER change the ASCII and UNICODE tables (without the planet collapsing) so you can go map any d@mned key to any d@mned position on the d@mned keyboard that you WANT and have the d@mned computer load it on startup. d@mned.

    if you're working on someone ELSE's machine, bring your OWN keyboard - they're small (or flexible) enough - and have the machine recognize it.

  164. How can it be better? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, Nothing will be as efficient or faster than good old qwerty keyboard, the only thing would be better would be brainwave interfaces in the future. if you want to go backwards go with the lame texting style just because its cool go ahead.