Slashdot Mirror
The Ugly, Profitable Details About Xbox Live Advertising
An anonymous reader writes "In an editorial at Penny Arcade, Ben Kuchera writes about how Microsoft's subscription-based Xbox Live platform has become an advertising cash cow — to the detriment of users who already pay for the service. Quoting: 'People who don't play video games would be forgiven if they turned on an Xbox 360 and didn't realize it was a device used to primarily play games. The first screen you see on the Xbox 360 Dashboard is often a mixture of ads for all sorts of goods and services, and many times games are in the minority of ad slots. The latest redesign increased the ad space that can be sold to advertisers, and that in turn increased this problem. Let's be clear, it is a problem. Game discovery is terrible in the current design of Xbox Live, and the usability of a system that used to be about games is suffering in order for Microsoft to make money on ads. Sadly, this issue isn't going away: Ad sales simply bring in too much money to ignore, and revenue is growing. ... I contacted Microsoft and asked how much advertising revenue impacted the profitability of the Xbox 360. "We don't share this information publicly but we can tell you that, since 2010, the advertising business has grown 142%," I was told.'"
With Xbox Live you pay to receive ads. With PSN, you don't pay a dime and still get online gaming.
While I'm acting smug as a PS3 owner, who doesn't have to put up with Microsoft's bullshit, I have to wonder just how much longer Sony's offering will last.
I was really annoyed with this when they first updated the console so the home screen was overrun with ads. I simply blocked their ad sub domain on my router. Problem solved.
So what is exactly is suffering for gaming? Has the hardware been gimped? Can you not just pop a game in and play it? The XBox is being slotted as a media platform, not just a gaming platform and it seems to be doing that rather well, just look at the sales. Just because it's not the uber-hardcore gaming machine you're expecting does not make it bad. If you really want that go build a PC. But as long as it plays games and you still have access to game content, all while providing additional entertainment and media options, I fail to see the issue.
To be honest, I use mine mainly for Netflix and other media related options. Occasionally I do play a game, so it fits perfectly for me. It's no longer just a "gaming console".
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"And may your days be long upon the earth."
Here's a method you can use to block some of those ads:
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/n5831/how_to_block_xbox_dashboard_ads/
It doesn't block all of them, but it does block most of the animated, generic ads that aren't related to gaming.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
The XBox Live interface has gotten worse with each revision. Usability is terrible, with the features that the user is really interested in buried under a ton of ads. The PS3 interface is enormously superior, and at least all of the ads are segregated out of the way.
But both of their online stores are really lousy even in terms of selling things--far inferior to Apple's iTunes (which is no great shakes itself).
Xbox Live is in the unique situation of being able to sell ads to the end-user, sell the ability to access end-users (via Marketplace) to publishers/developers, and take a cut of those purchases between publisher and end-user.
The article discusses this as a problem, but as far as Microsoft is concerned, it's everything as it should be. Customers aren't pissed enough to leave because they still see value in the service they're paying for and the ads are pretty unobtrusive. Until end-users or publishers get annoyed enough at the status quo to make a significant enough dent in their profits, Microsoft is not going to care. As it stands, we'll pretty much have to wait for one of the big name publishers to get annoyed enough that their games aren't getting the exposure they want, because the current minority voice of end-users annoyed at ads just isn't loud enough, and I don't think it ever will be. Publishers and their triple-A titles on the other hand have a ton of sway.
Of course, it will be interesting to see if the increasing dependence on Microsoft continues. If so, it might get to the point where the publishers don't have much sway as far as negotiations are concerned. Given that the gaming industry (excepting a few smart companies and indie devs) are basically abandoning the PC market in favor of locked-in console gamers, we're near the point where the console manufacturers and their signing keys are going to be the barrier between publishers and their continued success (or eventual failure).
I didn't own an original XBox, so I don't have a frame of reference but I've noticed that since I bought my 360 in 2008 most updates to the Dashboard have been working hard at making it more difficult to find my games or my home media.
In fact, with the latest batches of updates (Metro-like?) I've found it very difficult to get to games I want to play in my library, to the point now that I forego the GUI and go straight to the "quick play" option (which is basically just an alphabetically sorted list). And browsing my home network has been completely removed in lieu of streaming (yuck, no thanks).
I think Microsoft could learn a thing or two from Valve, Steam is pretty easy to use but is also a ad delivery system, I can find everything rather easily in Steam and I find it a lot less annoying than the 360 Dashboard, also Steam has sales for games that don't suck, and that makes me want to spend money but hey, that's just my opinion...
crazy dynamite monkey
It's is interesting to think they would raise their prices for Xbox live membership cards at the same time they decided to redo the Xbox dashboard. The new dashboard, although staying true to their new style seen in the windows 8 beta and their mobile phone software it is proving vastly more useful in their own advertising Campaign. Honestly as an avid Xbox 360 gamer and user of windows I enjoy the product but am disappointed that a service I pay 60 dollars a year to maintain is still trying to squeeze money out of my pockets. Even PSN limits their advertising to minimum and that is a free service, I would like to see the next update fix some of my own personal concerns and allow gamers to focus on the sole purpose for the console, gaming.
I'm annoyed by the idea of ads, but in reality I don't think the ads get in the way at all.
If you start your system with a game in it, press the "a" button and the game goes. To browse the game library, press down and hit "a."
It's not like you have to sit through a commercial, it doesn't even take up screen space that would be better used elsewhere. It's basically a non-factor.
XBLA games that get popular get popular through positive reviews, word-of-mouth, and advertising. Not because people are randomly browsing through streamlined XBox menus and decide to take a chance.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
I didn't know the XBox did this; now I wonder if it also does all that when you got a paid subscription ?
It's even in the summary: yes, paying subscribers see ads.
I don't really care about the ads per se, but that in an effort to cram more ads on the screen the stuff I actually use is buried. Most of the time it doesn't matter, I guess, since I throw a game DVD in the drive and wait for it to load.
They do have Bluetooth remotes that can link to a computer with the right software by the way.
Not to point out the rotting dead fish in the middle of the room, but this is exactly what happened with cable TV, and yet there is no real outrage on that front any more. I'm not saying it's the right thing...or even "acceptable" but customers seem to never balk at ads, and content streamers never turn down a revenue stream. It feels almost inevitable.
I have to say that the 360 has been one disappointment after another when it comes to the console itself. The games are fine, as is the media selection, but after coming from a PS3 and Wii, the 360 doesn't even feel like it's designed for people interested in gaming or media consumption at all, which came as an utter shock to me, since everyone I know seems to enjoy theirs for those activities (and Sony isn't exactly known for quality products these days either). There's so much cruft and unnecessary nonsense between you and whatever you want to do on the 360 that it's extremely exasperating to do trivial tasks that are incredibly simple on the PS3. For instance, the only way I'm aware of to simply watch a video that's been downloaded to the local hard drive is to:
1) Navigate to the Videos tab
2) Select the option to view my video apps
3) Launch one of the video apps, then wait for it to load
4) Once it loads, navigate to my local videos
5) Find the one I want then play it
(I'm eager to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable, since I would love to know an easier way to do something so simple)
And several of those steps involve navigating past tabs filled with image and video ads mixed in with actual content in a Metro-ish UI style. In contrast, on the PS3:
1) Go to the Videos tab
2) Find the one I want then play it
And the only ad that you can't disable is some text scrolling in the top right corner (and it's oftentimes actually useful information related to sales or game launches in the PSN Store).
At least Microsoft had the good sense to not have the audio enabled automatically on the video ads that are constantly showing in the dashboard. Even so, it's rather jarring when you accidentally scroll over one of them and suddenly get blaring sound as they respond to the controller's focus on them. I don't know what the numbers are, but, at least to me, it feels like the majority of the UI elements in the dashboard are actually ads of some form, without only a few useful things present. Unfortunately, since they've mixed them all together, it's rather difficult to discern at a glance sometimes.
And don't get me started on the fact that even though I can watch Netflix on my iPad, iPhone, Apple TV, Mac, Windows box, PS3, and Wii without having to pay anything extra, I have to be a Microsoft LIVE Gold subscriber if I want to watch it on my 360.
What's the PS3's counterpart to Xbox Live Indie Games (not Xbox Live Arcade)?
Since the change I've hardly used my Xbox, and have moved pretty much to the PC. I'm sensitive to this kind crap.
This is my biggest worry is that they're going to pull the same trick with Metro. It's the advertiser's dream, and the one way they'll beat Google. They control the platform, they control the ads.
My PS3 simply shows a nice static menu with a bar 'wave' moving up and down a little. No menu's at all. And I'm not even paying for Net access.
I recall that ad ticker first appearing in the 3.00 firmware... it still bothers me. That was also the point at which the "PLAYSTATION 3" startup became PS3, which looks a bit out of place if you don't have a slim.
This story reminds me, however, that what Sony has done on this matter is a whole lot less intrusive than MS's choices.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Just because it's not the uber-hardcore gaming machine you're expecting does not make it bad. If you really want that go build a PC.
I thought the whole draw of a console over a PC was living-room games. Not enough people have a PC in the living room to convince major publishers to fund living-room games for PC. Sure, a lot of Slashdot's base does, but the living room PC market is a rounding error compared to the console market.
But as long as it plays games
That's the entire point of the article: a console doesn't "play games" if it makes it too hard for the user to find games.
why would I pay 15 dollars a month, when I can just build a media center PC on the cheap?
Because not enough other people are willing to "just build a media center PC on the cheap". Without a significant user base owning media center PCs, major video game developers aren't going to target media center PCs. Hence why fighting games (apart from SFIV and MUGEN) and Mario Party-style games almost never get ported to the PC.
Microsoft has made it pretty damn clear that their hopes and dreams for XBox is a streaming media center more than just a game console.
FTFY. When it comes to watching your own video files trying anything but vanilla MP4s* or WMV-HD is an exercise in futility and may seriously harm one's sanity. There's also no subtitle support (hard-coded ones excepted) which, to me, is unforgivable. I'm sure if I tried something like netflix I'd be impressed - iPlayer certainly hasn't wowed me - but I'd rather be able to watch the things I already own without needing to re-encode them first.
*You're limited to H.264 + 2 channel AAC. Unless you've got a NAS box or something to format HFS+ volumes (honestly, NTFS on USB disks isn't supported, but HFS+ inexplicably is) you're also stuck with a 4GB limit on files.
If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
Same reason why I will never have cable, and would cancel netflix in an instant if they ever showed a single advertisement on streaming.
Add The Wizard (1989) to your queue. Watch it. Realized you just watched a 90 minute infomercial for Virtual Console on Wii. Cancel Netflix.
This is why I stay offline on the 360. I never saw a reason to pay if they're displaying ads. The only time I connect is for title updates and for XBLA games I can't find on PSN. And yes, I'm waiting a year+ for FEZ because of this crap.
On a side note, the fact that the UI keeps changing on the 360 just makes me turn on the "boot to game disc" option. I really can't stand navigating the "dashboard." I feel like I'm going back to a supermarket that constantly rearranges their displays and products. I wouldn't stand for this on my PC's OS, nor within an application, and it's incredibly annoying to have to put up with it on a console's. I'm glad the PS3 and Wii's have stayed the same during their lifetime.
To me, a console is just a game machine and that's what I want it for. It can do other things, but let me customize the UI so I can ignore that stuff, otherwise I just won't buy it and I'll stick to the competition. I'm sure at least the Wii U won't be doing this kind of BS, and if that's the last console I own, so be it.
Twinstiq, game news
Is there anything on Live these days that is really that unique of an experience?
Yes. The other consoles have nothing like Xbox Live Indie Games.
"We don't share this information publicly but we can tell you that, since 2010, the advertising business has grown 142%"
If their was dollar value worth bragging about, even with vague allusions, you could be sure that they'd be doing it. The fact that they would instead resort such an obvious attempt to impress you without providing any basis for arriving at an impressive conclusion yourself, suggests that they are blowing smoke.
Which is actually more aggravating. They will continue to try to squeeze money out of this rock, to the detriment of their core customer base, just because some piddly revenue that isn't even worth mentioning is nonetheless being pursued by some bean counter.
Other OS is dead since 3.21, and anybody who releases using the "just gave everyone their private signing keys" route to market will likely meet the same fate as George Hotz.
$15 a month? You must not be in America then. Here it's $10 a month and pre-2010 it was $8
This article claims that it's too hard for a startup to become licensed to develop Minis. It's not like the iOS App Store, where anyone with $300 a year ($600 per 3 years for a Mac and $100 per year for a certificate) can release software.
I have blocked the ads on the dashboard by having my router block the following sites:
msnvideoweb.vo.msecnd.net
rad.msn.com
Unfortunately, it retains the ads provided by Microsoft themselves, which are, I think provided by the same domain as the actual Xbox Live services (i.e. unblockable if you want to continue using your Xbox online). Also, you still have the god awful presence of Bing Search in your dashboard, whether you like it or not. I cannot find a way to remove Bing like it is possible to remove other crapware that Microsoft installed along with the latest update (like the 'Zune' app - why the HELL would I ever want that?).
One thing's for certain, I'm going to stick with PC gaming (or more specifically, Linux gaming) from now on. Consoles are steadily going from being a platform for games, with pretty graphics you might otherwise not be able to get on a PC, to a direct line into your living room for the big media companies to sell you more shit. I block ads on websites, and the text-based ones that get through are never clicked. If a website's 'sign up' process gets in the way of the information I want, I either don't use it or I give them a temporary email address. I use price comparison websites to find the best price, then go to the seller directly rather than clicking through. I hate companies that make money without performing any real innovation online, and I try hard to avoid letting them make any money from my online presence. Microsoft first and foremost.
See when you don't pirate, pay lots of money for games and hardware, do everything you are told like a good little boy. You get rewarded with beautiful ads. Isn't it so much better when you follow the rules?
There are ads that load in when you connect to PSN. However, most of those ads are for games/videos you can download from PSN.
Same thing goes for Xbox Live. I'm an XBL user and I didn't really notice the change that much, because it's no different than what Google is doing with Android Market and what Apple does with its iOS and Mac App Stores.
It's completely different.
Apple and Google relegate their advertising to their app stores - you know, a special place specifically designed for you to go and buy stuff? It would be the same thing, if every time you turned on your Android or iDevice, you were smacked upside the head with ad after ad, but that's not the case.
Also worth noting, Apple and Google don't charge you for the privilege.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I bought an XBOX 360 even though my friends had the PS3. I figured that by paying for XBOX Live I was paying for a quality service. I play Call of Duty online and the service was fine. Most of the time I was the "game host" thanks to my FIOS internet connection from Verizon. Everything was fine until Call of Duty Black Ops. There were constant issues with online play. It was so bad I called XBOX Live and they created a trouble ticket. After two weeks of no improvement I called XBOX Live to check the status of my ticket. The person on the phone told me that they didn't have a ticket for me and that if I had a problem playing the game online I should call Activision.
There was no was in hell I was calling Activision; I told the representative they would either fix the problem or I would buy a PS3. The XBOX Live representative told me to buy a PS3. That night I purchased a PS3 and Call of Duty Black Ops for PS3. I haven't turned on the XBOX since and my only regret was ever buying an XBOX in the first place.
Microsoft is crafting an interesting strategy with XBOX Live and I can only expect it will alienate their customers. Increasing advertising, poor quality; why the hell would anyone want to pay for that crap?
how easy it would be to kill Redbox by allowing me to rent movies I can't find on Netflix at a competitive price
Microsoft is not the company to blame for that. Try blaming Disney, Fox, Paramount, Sony, Universal, and Warner Bros.
Why not use an htpc/gaming pc? You can get most of the xobx games for windows
The kind of game that works best on a console is the kind of game that works best in the living room, and that tends toward fighting games and party games. Are Mortal Kombat (2011) and the other Xbox 360 fighting games ported, or is the fighting section of the PC aisle just Street Fighter IV and more Street Fighter IV?
no subscriptions for basic multiplayer access, the games on windows tend to come out a few $ cheaper
You're right about single-player games. But for two players, you're far more likely to need two machines and two copies of the game on a PC than on a console because major developers assume that nobody owns an HTPC. Compare $60 for one copy of a $60 console game to $80 for two copies of a $40 PC game. It gets even more expensive if your kids are gamers too, or if your family expects you to host the entertainment at annual reunions.
They would need to make the system hide anything Linuxy.
Android already hides anything Linuxy. Get more games supporting Bluetooth gamepads and add gamepad support to Android's UI, and ASUS might have the chance to make a version of its Transformer/Nexus 7 product line with an EeeBox case as a low-end console filling a niche similar to that of the Wii.
The thing is, the default setting if you have a disc (XBL gold or not) is for that disc to play. If that disc has multiplayer and you're logged into XBL, multiplayer just works -- you're not force fed advertisements at any time. Messages are primarily sent through the little Xbox-button menu which is usable both in and out of game. Achievements can be browsed this way as well, and friends can also be searched this way. No ads there either.
The point I'm trying to make is the Xbox Live landing page is typically for users who are looking for something else. It's not all that different than Google Play (I used the outdated name earlier) or App Store if you really think about user behavior. You pretend to spend $200-300 on a phone (in reality it's thousands over two years) and when you're looking for content, you're first shown featured content -- not a bland search screen or category listing. The console's core purpose of being a gaming device is no more compromised by the Xbox landing page than smartphones are by their respective market pages. I mean, it sucks that you can't go and put your Arcade games/indie games/netflix/whatever on the landing page, but I don't remember ever being able to.
If Silver members see the ads/featuring then it's really not all that bad. You can buy $1000 worth of content on the App Store and the featured content isn't going to change.
Not that anyone's claimed this, but I'm not a M$ employee, just an amateur devil's advocate.
Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.
Microsoft has never been known to be a company that cares about consumers more than profit. Profit is their driving factor in everything they do from product lock-in, to implementing "Standards" in a way that is not conducive to said "Standards", to intentionally breaking competing products to increase sales of their own products, to forcing products on consumers to kill off competition.
I am honestly surprised that anyone shows surprise when things like this happen or get brought out in to the spotlight. You know what they are, or could easily find out. If a person continually believes a pathological liar does that not make them a co-dependent?
I have personally boycotted Microsoft for over a decade. No Zune, no Xbox, and Windows Desktop only when forced (Employer and Public Schools often require it's use). My kid has been very happy to back my decision, he loves his Play Stations, PSP, iPod, etc...
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
The problem with your idea is that Microsoft promotes buying games via the internet directly from them, and to launch them, you have to visit the dashboard, at which point you will see ads, and not just ads for games. Sometimes as a silver user you see ads for game demos, which is annoying because you're only allowed to download most of them if you have gold. The whole experience is frustrating and annoying.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Bullshit. The first (and last) ad I saw before I pulled the network cable wasn't for any game, it was for some "University of Phoenix" type diploma mill.
The thing is, the default setting if you have a disc (XBL gold or not) is for that disc to play.
I have a disc in my 360 now and I never changed the default settings for game discs.
Lets see what happens when I turn it on.
Xbox 360 logo... Choose a profile screen... signing into Xbox Live...
OK, I was deposited at the Main Menu's "home" tab with 7 boxes. They are:
1. Upper-left corner: Small box, Alan Wake (the disc currently in the console)
2. Lower-left corner: Small box, Quickplay (for accessing my XBLA games)
3. Left-center: Large box the switches ads every 2 seconds between "Comic Con is On", "Crackle's The Unknown" (tv series?), "Call of Duty: Black Ops II", "Quantum Conundrum", and "Xbox Live Good, Better, Gold"
4. Right-center-upper: Small box, ad for MLB & More
5. Right-center-lower: Small box, ad for Arcade Sale
6. Upper-right corner: Small box, ad for Kinect
7. Lower-right corner: Small box, ad for Netflix
My empirical evidence says you're wrong.
Oh, and if you're referring to what happens when you put a disc in, the main menu has likely already loaded and you've already seen the ads.
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
I want more! I admit that the game discovery could be improved on the 360. But I don't want to just play games anymore. What I really want is apps! I want useful apps, fun apps (games), media apps, social apps and educational apps. Most of all I want apps that can interact with each other like the charms feature in Windows 8. I want to be able to take a snapshot in a game, send that over to my image editing app then make it my backdrop or send it to a friend.
Microsoft has made it pretty damn clear that their hopes and dreams for XBox is a media center more than just a game console. The games are still there though, and if it bothers you that much, just go to one of the dozen or so other gaming platforms available to you. Is there anything on Live these days that is really that unique of an experience?
hmm, my media center doesn't cost me a monthly fee, nor does it show me advertisement, so I wonder, who's media center are they trying to compete with.
For the record, I haven't updated my xbox 360 ever since i got it 3 or so years ago.
Be seeing you...
If that disc has multiplayer and you're logged into XBL, multiplayer just works -- you're not force fed advertisements at any time.
Indeed, works every time, those three little red lights aren't trying to sell you anything (ZING!)
Xbox Live is in the unique situation of being able to sell ads to the end-user, sell the ability to access end-users (via Marketplace) to publishers/developers, and take a cut of those purchases between publisher and end-user.
Yep, that's a unique situation, similar to the one Apple has with iOS, no?
I'm reminded of the newspaper envelopes around actual newspapers that are made up to look like genuine journal reporting, but they're actually four full-page adverts attached to the outside of the newspaper you paid for.
Hrm, it's different for me. I got my Xbox 360 in 2008, and back then it loaded the game on startup. I did change the setting a couple years ago because I use it for Netflix.
:)
My empirical evidence is: Hazy but accurate.
Even if I'm wrong, you can just go into System Settings --> Startup and Shutdown --> Startup --> Disc to make it play from disc. I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for saying this, but seeing an ad once isn't going to give you AlzAIDScer. (though I just played D&D Daggerdale for PC all afternoon -- now that's something to nerdrage about...)
Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.