Fedora 18 To Feature the GNOME2 Fork MATE

dsinc writes "It's not just Mint: Fedora will also feature MATE in their upcoming release (Fedora 18). According to Fedora's Dan Mashal, 'many users have expressed interest in this feature since Fedora 15 in which Fedora was switched from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3.'" This follows shortly after news that MATE 1.4 has been released. New features includes file sharing over bluetooth, updated backends for mate-keyring and libmatekeyring, new themes for the notification daemon, and improvements to the Caja file manager. MATE is being included in Sabayon as well.

Comments

Way to go.

[Anonymous Coward]

Too many people have problems with GNOME 3. Good to have a choice.

Re:Way to go.

[dcbrianw]

Too many people have problems with GNOME 3. Good to have a choice.

Dear Slashdot, please score this as a 5!

Re:Way to go.

[Anne Thwacks]

But choice == fragmentation! Panic now, before its too late!

Re:Way to go.

[erroneus]

Fragmentation is only bad when we have something everyone already likes and the fragmentation breaks it. Say, for example, a whole project kind of splits up and each goes in a separate direction which are both different from the original direction. Usually everyone loses in that case.

But when a single choice is made to change which most people simply hate, it's bad too. It's not fragmentation but it's still bad for the users and bad for the project.

In the end, it's the interests of the users which make or break a project. People treat projects and children similarly and it's a damned shame. "My child!" "My Project!" "I can do with it what I want!" Wrong. You can't and you shouldn't. It's a community thing and the community has an interest in the results of your work.

Re:Way to go.

[Orcris]

But choice == fragmentation! Panic now, before its too late!

No it isn't. Fragmentation is bad when programs only work in certain situations. For example, Android fragmentation. Chrome only works in ICS and Jelly Bean, leaving Honeycomb and Gingerbread users out, even though most phones run Gingerbread and most tablets run Honeycomb. GNOME Shell/MATE/Unity/Cinnamon fragmentation is not bad because programs made for GNOME Shell will work fine in Unity and Cinnamon since they are just different shells. MATE is still based on GTK2, but it will be ported to GTK3 eventually, and even with it using GTK2, GTK3 apps still work. The real fragmentation in Linux is GNOME/KDE fragmentation. Usually, GTK apps work fine in KDE and vice versa, but the problem is theming. KDE supports GNOME themes for GTK apps, but KDE apps look ugly in GNOME.

Re:Way to go.

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate that...

lets hope ubuntu fallows

[lister king of smeg]

. i have been running mate on ubuntu through a ppa but mainline support or even a full spin like xfce and kde have would be nice. hmm Mubuntu?

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[GameboyRMH]

Maybe Cinnabuntu with Cinnamon desktop? Sounds tasty!

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[Anonymous Coward]

hmm Mubuntu?

Mubutu ate my father.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[kramulous]

Cinnamon Challenge?

In all seriousness, I've grown to quite like gnome3. Sure, it has its quirks, but so do they all. You should try Windows 7. First time in 12 years I've had to work with it, and talk about poorly designed, bad user experience and total lack of reconfigurability. Gnome3 is to Windows as single malt scotch is to lolly water.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[Billly Gates]

Funny

Gnome 3 caused me to move to Windows 7 and it was a paradise in comparison. At least I can do the very advanced task of unmaximizing a freaking Window.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[jc79]

You mean you never worked out how to unmaximise a window in Gnome 3? It's the opposite of maximising - drag the title bar to the top of the screen and the window will snap to maximised, drag the window away from the top and it will snap back to its previous size. It's really simple and actually discoverable, unlike some other things in Gnome 3.

https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/CheatSheet
"Window maximizing and tiling: You can maximize a window by dragging it to the top edge of the screen. Alternatively, you can double-click the window title. To unmaximize, pull it down again. By dragging windows to the left and right edges of the screen you can tile them side by side. "

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[Billly Gates]

Wow

If I have to look up a cheat sheet to do such a basic task it is a failure. You can't expect an average Joe to figure this out and learn a new way one the other one works just fine. Same reason they usually prefer XP over win 7 still just because it is familiar more than the fact it is 10 years old.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[SpzToid]

I must agree. My Asus netbook needed upgrading from Ubuntu Netbook Remix, and after trying everything I settled on Gnome 3 because of how efficient and elegant the window display and task switching is.

I considered this such a success I setup one of my main dev boxes with Gnome 3 (and big double monitors). It took a *little* getting used to, moving from 'traditional' window GUIs, but having taken a small investment in getting used to things, I appreciate again the efficient window display and task management. I strongly suggest all Gnome 3 adopters spend about 5 minutes viewing these training videos, to fast-track smoothness: https://www.youtube.com/user/GNOMEDesktop

My next door neighbor likes it too, and thanks me for turning her on to it; she gave up XP on her netbook, thank goodness.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[arth1]

https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/CheatSheet
"Window maximizing and tiling: You can maximize a window by dragging it to the top edge of the screen. Alternatively, you can double-click the window title. To unmaximize, pull it down again. By dragging windows to the left and right edges of the screen you can tile them side by side. "

That's based on a fully erroneous beliefs that people have only one monitor, don't want to place any window near the edges, and like full screen and tiling (i.e no z order) like on a mobile phone.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[gbjbaanb]

You're gonna love Windows 8 then :)

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[gbjbaanb]

Cinnabuntu sounds quite good... better than cubuntu (be very careful with that spelling now!)

However, putting a different front end on top of Ubuntu seems to be self-defeating, the whole point of Ubuntu is that is an all-in-one supported-with-default options thing. If you want configurability, there are plenty of alternatives. Ubuntu is a kind of 'Windows for the linux world' and tries to ape the things that made Windows popular.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[jc79]

I have two monitors (of differing resolutions). I like to place windows near the edge sometimes. The tiling and maximising features only activate if the pointer goes within about 20 pixels of the screen edge, which is easily avoided if your intention is to push a window to the edge rather than tile it. You can also send windows to the back by middle-clicking on the titlebar, which I find useful with focus-follows-mouse and no click-to-raise. Both Alt-Tab/button-above-tab or the expose view work for switching windows quickly as well.

If you like having maximise/minimise buttons on the titlebar, they are easy to restore with gnome-tweak-tool. I don't actually find them necessary.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[jc79]

There's no need to actually consult the cheat sheet. It's actually signposted in the UI: when dragging, if the pointer approaches a window edge, blue shading appears indicating the shape the window will snap to - I'm fairly sure this is the way Windows does it as well.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[regularstranger]

I'm wondering if you have ever used a cheat sheet, or had somebody show you basic tricks when using Windows, of if all basic functionality of using Windows was immediately apparent to you upon initial inspection of the desktop. If you have ever used a cheatsheet (or somebody has shown you something useful, which is pretty much the same thing) to learn how to do something basic in Windows, then it is also a failure - per your definition. I'm not a fan of Gnome 3, but I suspect that you're being a little unfair.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[rubycodez]

what are you babbling about, there is Xubuntu and Kubuntu already

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[rubycodez]

we could call it Linux Mint 13 (Maya) with Cinnamon.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[Anonymous Coward]

Except windows ALSO HAS A BUTTON.'
That is the issue. The idiots managing GNOME3 have removed the primary way to maximize/unmaximize a window and replaced it with a secondary gesture.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[slashrio]

Ever tried to move the 'save page as' window in firefox in order to read elements on the web page which you want to use in the file name?
The whole firefox window will demaximise and move with it. What a mess!
Did anybody dare to call this 'added functionality'?
For me newer versions of the same program should obey my '1st law of upgrade': "Only add functionality, do not remove!"

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[lister king of smeg]

What? you switched of linux because one among may dozens of DE's fubared their desktop when a better one was a few clicks away? i mean sudo apt-get install kde-plasma-desktop OR xfce4 OR any-of-a-bajilion-other-DE's.

It makes since switching from windows over gui problems because there are no other easy/reasonable options not so much once you are already on linux. on linux gui fixs are no big deal unless you have to manually monkey with X-config

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[justforgetme]

All high productivity window managers have instructions, which rock do you live under again?
What? You thought people running xmonad know how to use it without configuring it?

That said a mouse operated window manager certainly does not need you to look up a cheat sheet
but with the complexity that is inherent to all current desktop paradigms it is a boost in efficiency if
one is readily available to the newbies. Ubuntu cleverly mapped theirs to the super key and I fail to
understand what is taking the gnome folks so long to do the same thing.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[Anonymous Coward]

.. furthermore.. it (maximizing) works exactly the same in Win 7.
Apart from that .. Win 7 sent me running to Linux Mint 12. Win 7 was just as annoying as Gnome 3.
I'm now really happy on Linux Mint..

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[gbjbaanb]

I know there is, I'm saying its probably a bad idea, especially as kubuntu is not supported by Canonical.

Hence my point, if you want to use Ubuntu, stick with the 'official' flavour only. If you want a non-Unity flavour, go with a different distro. Ubuntu wants to be a pre-packaged Linux, let it be.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[rubycodez]

That "support" is totally irrelevant, there are fixes and patches for all the variants. The forums hold all the answers most normal users will ever need. I've never needed that other Canonical support, nor has anyone else I know that uses K or X or U Ubuntu (including some kids). For the average user, Xubuntu and Kubuntu are fine choices,

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[gbjbaanb]

For the average user, all the Linux distros are fine choices.

For a corporate who (lets face it, no-one else buys support) needs that support checkmark, it matters. This is why I think Ubuntu should stay with its 1 option, its not as if there aren't many other distros available for the rest of us who want a different UI.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[jc79]

Modal dialogs in Gnome 3 are fixed to the parent window by default. If it bugs you, change it:

gsettings set org.gnome.shell.overrides attach-modal-dialogs false

or use dconf-editor to do the same thing

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[slashrio]

Ok, fixed that, thanks a lot for the hint.
Any hint on how to prevent other application's windows to pop up (steal focus) while typing in one window?
I already did:
$ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/focus_new_windows --type string strict
$ gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/no_focus_windows --type string "(not true)"
but that doesn't seem to help.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[rubycodez]

nonsense, for the average use SuSE Enterprise or Red Hat Enterprise would be piss poor choices. the repositories miss imporant end user things, the device driver collections aren't geared for end user needs.

Gentoo is not for average user. neither is Arch (a little too much sysadmin skills needed to get it installed)

Ubuntu doesn't have 1 option, they know tooo many people hate their far inferior first choice that they are trying to cram down everyone's throat.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[jc79]

These might help - I think they override the setttings in gconf:

gsettings set org.gnome.metacity new-windows-always-on-top false
gsettings set org.gnome.metacity no-focus-windows

The whole gconf/dconf thing is a mess right now, but it seems more and more applications are switching to dconf only. dconf-editor isn't quite as useful as gconf-editor though - there's no "Find" function yet, for example. I'd still rather see all these options exposed in a decent UI somewhere - gnome-tweak-tool would be a good place for the Gnome devs to put all this, but it needs to be part of the standard collection, and visible in System Settings rather than being undiscoverable.

Re:lets hope ubuntu fallows

[slashrio]

Thanks again!

gsettings set org.gnome.metacity no-focus-windows

Only this one gives an error (value missing). I guessed the value should be 'true'.

Splendid decision

[blind biker]

I was disheartened with the shipwreck that Gnome 3 decided to become, so MATE was a very positive development. And while I'm not a Fedora user (just not my cup of tea), it's a very popular distro, and seeing them adopt MATE added a huge momentum to the project (a bit like when IBM adopted Java - it boosted it enormously).

Re:Splendid decision

[GoingDown]

I Like Gnome 3 quite a lot. I just fits my work habits really well:

* Alt+Tab (and Alt+Key-above) works just as I really want them to work. Perfect
* Dynamic virtual desktops concept is perfect for me
* Minimalistic look. I really hate when toolbars are full of icons, and every place is full of things.
* Desktop overview is good & easy (or whatever it is called, where you can manage your windows, and launch new programs etc.)
* Extensions!

I have only few problems with Gnome 3 - one being that gnome-tweak-tool should really be included by default.

My second favorite is Awesome window manager. I've also tested Xmonad and Kde quite extensively for several weeks, but Kde is way too "stuffed" and confusing for my tastes, and Awesome seems to be better fit than Xmonad for some reason.

Re:Splendid decision

[Anonymous Coward]

For people who like their desktop to have familiar features rather than being dumbed down for touch screens?

Re:Splendid decision

[kubusja]

You are just spreading FUD - like hardcore Windows users... I took me a few days but I love GNOME 3 now. I am switched completely. I was able to convert a few from Unity/other to GNOME 3. They all stayed with GNOME 3. And I am Fedora user.

Re:Splendid decision

[Tarlus]

(just not my cup of tea)

I see what you did there.

(The namesake of MATE)

Re:Splendid decision

[Anonymous Coward]

I really hate gnome 3. I completely fails to support my work habits and annoyingly cannot by changed.

1) I have a mouse since I interact with image processing constantly. Hotkeys just don't cut it.
2) Having several static workspaces each dedicated to a particular task, application or project which now vary randomly.
3) I really hate having a 30" xterm spread across my monitor if I move it too far up.
4) I use to have a workspace manager that showed me what was in all my workspaces and I didn't even have to do anything.
5) Customization through discovery and not having to write code to fix things. I am perturbed that I have to visit a website to fix fundamental failings in the design
          with unsupported extensions that could go away at any second.
6) In an effort to be user friendly, many critical error messages no longer give enough information that I can troubleshoot it with google. Just happened today
          when I made a selinux goof. Being told that there is an unrecoverable error while being locked out of my desktop with my only option "log out" is idiotic.

I have many problems with Gnome 3 and after reporting them was told that I need to change my habits instead. Also, this talk about GnomeOS. Really? Can't you get the desktop right before you go on and try to change everything to one big button that says "OK" for every message.

Re:Splendid decision

[KiloByte]

Have you actually tied the "Gnome Classic" mode? It is made of regressions. The first few things I tried: putting most used menu items on the panel (right-click on it in the menu). Oops, can't do anything with menu items anymore. Oh, and the panel itself is gone, too.

The next thing I tried, was finding out why RhythmBox doesn't show up in the tray like it was configured to. The answer? No more tray, it has been removed "because programs abused it" -- even though the only case of abuse I remember was Remmina (a Gnome component) sticking an icon there even though it's a regular foreground tool. And what has been placed instead of the tray? An icon that shows you that your network cable is plugged in, an unremovable instant messenger status (who uses instant messengers these days?), and a reminder what my name is (I kind of can remember that myself, thanks).

Third issue I immediately fell into, was an "envelope" icon popping up, with oh-so-important messages that a song ended. In Gnome 2, XFCE and any sane desktop environment, this message pops up in a corner, lingers for around a second then slides back off. Yet in Gnome 3, it somehow needs to persist until dealt with.

Let's say I didn't keep trying for long. Gnome Shell at least has a novel (if ludicrous and IMO unergonomic) interface, but Gnome Classic seems to be strictly worse than Gnome 2.

Re:Splendid decision

[jedidiah]

Whether or not GNOME3 is or isn't any good is really pretty irrelevant.

The only meaningful thing here is how you can't just take a legacy system upgraded to the latest version of GNOME and just run the old apps as they were. The old stuff should not have been messed with. They should be able to run unmodified. They can't. That's the real nonsense here.

GNOME2 had to be forked to deal with that nonsense and it really wasn't necessary. A lot of effort has gone into getting MATE rolling that shouldn't have been needed to begin with.

Re:Splendid decision

[blind biker]

I was able to convert a few from Unity

Must have been hard...

Re:Splendid decision

[kelemvor4]

who uses instant messengers these days

I do.

Re:Splendid decision

[erroneus]

No. It's not. You may be fine with moving your mouse to opposite ends of the screen frequently, but I'm not. My first experiences with it involved installing it on a laptop and I forgot to bring a mouse. Try that with a touchpad for a few hours and you'll realize that "hey, maybe this isn't good for EVERYONE."

Gnome shell forgot some things and forgot that it's not all about tablets and touch screens... and definitely not all about mousing with lots of desktop spaces.

Re:Splendid decision

[jc79]

You could always press the Super/"windows" key or whatever itls labelled on your keyboard. Gets you to the overview without needing to lift your hands off the keyboard - pretty much everything in gnome-shell can be done with keyboard shortcuts, often the same shortcuts that worked in Gnome 2 (ctrl-alt-up/down arrow to switch workspaces for example).

To launch an application, I press Super, type the first few letters of the program name (or what it does, like "mail", which gets me Thunderbird), hit Enter and go. Much quicker than the Gnome 2/Windows way of clicking Applications, mousing down to the correct submenu, and selecting from there.

Re:Splendid decision

[techno-vampire]

I really hate gnome 3. I completely fails to support my work habits and annoyingly cannot by changed.

When Gnome 3 was first announced, I read the description of how it was going to work and knew, right then, that it wasn't for me. It wouldn't do things the way I like, it was expected to insist on doing things I didn't want and was almost completely unconfigurable without (potentially) unreliable third-party extensions. If I'd have known more about MATE then, I probably would have migrated to it. As it is, I ended up with Xfce and am very happy with it. Still, it's nice to have more than one option to point people to if they find Gnome 3 or Unity not to their taste.

Re:Splendid decision

[Anonymous Coward]

If the gnome-shell freezes, then you can press ctrl-alt-f1 to open a console. Log in and type

gnome-shell --replace

This should restart shell, but it doesn't restart X, and all your programs stay open.

Re:Splendid decision

[__Paul__]

In Gnome Classic, the panel is still there. You have to hold down Alt when dragging menu items onto it. Dumb decision, but it does still work.

The tray is gone, but it has been replaced with the "Indicator Applet". Add one of those to your panel, and Rhythmbox will show up under the audio menu.

If you run notify-osd, all alerts go to that - they appear on my screen in a black bubble that appears in the top-right and then disappears after a few seconds. I may be running a patched version, however, I can't remember anymore.

The differences in Gnome Classic take a little while to get used to, but I'm over the hump now, and it's working every bit as well as Gnome 2 used to.

Re:Splendid decision

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope they don't take away any other random computing paradigms I'm used to.

I'll be polite! I really will oh overlord masters you.

Re:Splendid decision

[Lennie]

Actually the one in Debian/Ubuntu is usable, it's closer to Gnome 2 than XFCE is.

Re:Splendid decision

[Anonymous Coward]

You could always press the Super/"windows" key or whatever itls labelled on your keyboard. Gets you to the overview without needing to lift your hands off the keyboard - pretty much everything in gnome-shell can be done with keyboard shortcuts, often the same shortcuts that worked in Gnome 2 (ctrl-alt-up/down arrow to switch workspaces for example).

To launch an application, I press Super, type the first few letters of the program name (or what it does, like "mail", which gets me Thunderbird), hit Enter and go. Much quicker than the Gnome 2/Windows way of clicking Applications, mousing down to the correct submenu, and selecting from there.

You could always hand code another window manager too. Having to work around something by applying more effort/learning isn't sensible. By the way keyboard shortcuts existed for Gnome 2 and Windows. Get a clue!

Re:Splendid decision

[Anonymous Coward]

who uses instant messengers these days?

as opposed to? 'moran'ic sms messages? facebook chat (which is just an instant messenger)

Re:Splendid decision

[ChunderDownunder]

Yes, MATE is stuck with an obsolete version of GTK+. Similarly the KDE fork, Trinity, is stick with an obsolete version of Qt.

That's the trade-off of progress over backwards compatibility.
 

Re:Splendid decision

[CaptnMArk]

For me, Alt+Tab is completely unusable!. The rest I could live with (except for unity's global menu bar).

Re:Splendid decision

[lister king of smeg]

You could always press the Super/"windows" key or whatever itls labelled on your keyboard. Gets you to the overview without needing to lift your hands off the keyboard - pretty much everything in gnome-shell can be done with keyboard shortcuts, often the same shortcuts that worked in Gnome 2 (ctrl-alt-up/down arrow to switch workspaces for example).

To launch an application, I press Super, type the first few letters of the program name (or what it does, like "mail", which gets me Thunderbird), hit Enter and go. Much quicker than the Gnome 2/Windows way of clicking Applications, mousing down to the correct sub-menu, and selecting from there.

thats the problem. Gnome 3 is built for touch screens but you need a keyboard shortcut for everything does that not mean that said touchscreen useless? and if you are telling all of the linux users to use a keyboard shortcut for everything why not use a terminal instead or a window manager like awesome where it is all keyboard driven anyway? desktops are primarily controlled by mice with the data entered by keyboard. not the other way around.

Re:Splendid decision

[lister king of smeg]

except mate plans to eventually move on to the gtk3 framework.

Re:Splendid decision

[bluefoxlucid]

What do you mean, move your mouse to opposite ends of the screen?

Ctrl+Alt+[up|down] - swap virtual desktops. Because it's faster than tap top left, hit page down... or top left, roll mouse wheel over desktops on the right.. or, really, I tap top left and use Ctrl+Alt+[up|down] to move between desktops.

Tap top-left, start typing - search. Yes there's a search box... you don't have to use it.

And why are you whining about touch pads? I'm using a 24 inch wide screen monitor here and a mouse can go top left to bottom right in a short motion. Touch pads never gave me trouble: use two fingers. Index in the top left, ring on the bottom right, lift index, repeat. A few quick taps and the mouse races to the bottom right in a quarter second flat (two thirds of a second if you're new). This probably doesn't work on multi-touch, but afaik that's just for touch screens.

Re:Splendid decision

[Kwpolska]

obsolete? 99% of apps are still using GTK2. firefox, chrome/ium, xfce, lxde, gimp (don't forget that gtk = Gimp ToolKit!) to name a few. Sure, the version number makes it obsolete, but NOBODY CARES.

Re:Splendid decision

[jc79]

Gnome 3 is built for touch screens but you need a keyboard shortcut for everything does that not mean that said touchscreen useless?

So, touch the button that does the same thing as the key shortcut. You're not forced to use the shortcut - it's there if you find it more convenient (ie you don't want to spin the mouse across two monitors to hit the hot corner, you press Super instead. It doesn't mean you can't use the mouse/touch interface if you prefer that. Key shortcuts are just that- shortcuts, not replacements. It's not like if you press Ctrl-S to save a document, you can never use the File->Save menu again.

and if you are telling all of the linux users to use a keyboard shortcut for everything why not use a terminal instead or a window manager like awesome where it is all keyboard driven anyway? desktops are primarily controlled by mice with the data entered by keyboard. not the other way around.

One hand for mouse, one hand for keyboard. Mouse does most of the work, keyboard hand occasionally stops picking nose and presses a few keys to save mouse hand some work.

Re:Splendid decision

[lsatenstein]

You could always press the Super/"windows" key or whatever itls labelled on your keyboard. Gets you to the overview without needing to lift your hands off the keyboard - pretty much everything in gnome-shell can be done with keyboard shortcuts, often the same shortcuts that worked in Gnome 2 (ctrl-alt-up/down arrow to switch workspaces for example).

To launch an application, I press Super, type the first few letters of the program name (or what it does, like "mail", which gets me Thunderbird), hit Enter and go. Much quicker than the Gnome 2/Windows way of clicking Applications, mousing down to the correct submenu, and selecting from there.

With Gnome2 the panel was my favorites bar. I pasted thunderbird, firefox, Qt and some other frequently used applications to the panel. I achieved in one mouse click, what I needed, And with the desktop switching. I used compiz (love the wiggly windows) and the cube. With compiz, I agree, the keyboard was great desktop switcher, and very functional. I think G2 with many compiz features is the way to go. (I use this config with Centos6.3)

Re:Splendid decision

[lsatenstein]

What do you mean, move your mouse to opposite ends of the screen?

Ctrl+Alt+[up|down] - swap virtual desktops. Because it's faster than tap top left, hit page down... or top left, roll mouse wheel over desktops on the right.. or, really, I tap top left and use Ctrl+Alt+[up|down] to move between desktops.

Tap top-left, start typing - search. Yes there's a search box... you don't have to use it.

And why are you whining about touch pads? I'm using a 24 inch wide screen monitor here and a mouse can go top left to bottom right in a short motion. Touch pads never gave me trouble: use two fingers. Index in the top left, ring on the bottom right, lift index, repeat. A few quick taps and the mouse races to the bottom right in a quarter second flat (two thirds of a second if you're new). This probably doesn't work on multi-touch, but afaik that's just for touch screens.

I touch type, and by touch typing I rest my wrists on the front of the keys. Unfortunately it often grazes the touch pad, and whoops, I just submitted an incomplete email or blog post. I tried as much as I could to desensitize the touchpad, but in the end elected to use an external mouse. I much prefer the joystick that Lenova provides. No touch pad for me please.

Re:Splendid decision

[bluefoxlucid]

resting your wrists is bad form because it creates a bend in the wrist. Wrists are supposed to be elevated such that the wrist is straight, completely, from all directions (notably in this case, the back of the hand should be of the same horizontal plane as the back of the forearm). This can be tiring, but it keeps the tendons in the wrist from dragging along the tubes they're in, which cause nerve inflammation. Guitarists try to keep the left wrist straight for the same reason (that and the reduced amount of friction reduces the energy needed to move the fingers, increasing control and smoothness of action, letting them shred faster).

But wait...

[wordsnyc]

Seadog 19 will feature Matey, the DE that comes with a talking parrot (but doesn't support 3D).

Re:But wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

...you're high, aren't you?

Re:But wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

yep...oh wait, you're not talking to me, nevermind.

Re:But wait...

[GameboyRMH]

No he's probably an experienced FOSS developer. And the package name for the parrot will be Polly, and the library for it will be Crackers.

Re:But wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

libcrackers
libcrackers-devel
libcrackers-ng
libcrackers-ng-devel

Oh, but that's too close to libcrack now, isn't it.

libbiscuits
libbiscuits-devel
libbiscuits-ng
libbiscuits-ng-devel
libbiscuits2
libbiscuits2-compat

Re:But wait...

[epyT-R]

One of the (Few) things I hate about OSS is the naming.. the name of the program shouldn't be so obscure that even most nerds would have to look it up.. it should be a simple and intuitive title that describes the software's purpose.

Re:But wait...

[ChrisMaple]

Obscure naming is not limited to OSS software or minor players. Or perhaps "Dracula" and "Diva" are inherently related to integrated circuit design.

Re:But wait...

[epyT-R]

yeah, but those are niche applications, right? I'm talking about clicking start on a linux desktop and not having a clue what an 'ekiga' is.

Re:But wait...

[BanHammor]

It turns out pop-up explainations or icons aren't for you.

Re:But wait...

[mister_playboy]

Many users manage to make use of Windows Explorer despite the fact that few of them seem to know the actual program name.

Even more interesting when they don't see the obvious analogy with the naming of Internet Explorer vs WIndows Explorer.

Re:But wait...

[vandamme]

Cinnamon explains it all for you.

Include != Feature

[Anonymous Coward]

"Feature" kind of implies MATE will be the default. If I'm reading TFA correctly, MATE will be available but new installs will still default to Shell. Just like how Ubuntu defaults to Unity but Shell can be installed from the repos.

Re:Include != Feature

[techno-vampire]

Only if you install from a LiveCD, and there are already KDE and Xfce spins if you prefer. Assuming that there's not a MATE spin (and that's a pretty big assumption) all you need to do is install from the DVD and select whatever DE you prefer.

Perhaps supporting R100/R200 was a good idea...

[sethstorm]

Given how many decent, albeit old, chips covered by the Gnome 3 blacklist - this shouldn't be a surprise.

In addition, not much was ever said about the blacklist other than "R100/R200/$chip just can't handle it" without specifying how something that worked in Gnome 3.0 didn't work in later versions. The excuse generally has been along the lines of "STFU and enjoy the fallback, since your chip is too old" without a reasonable explanation of why it even happened. Never mind that Gnome 3 goes out of its way to make sure a blacklisted chipset stays in fallback to the best of its ability - without any opportunity to override.

And a round of slow clapping began....

[Picass0]

Thank you for the outbreak of common sense from the Fedora team. I've been using KDE since Gnome 3 arrived.

Re:And a round of slow clapping began....

[Anonymous Coward]

And you went to an equal train wreck? Amazing... No accounting for taste, I suppose... >:-D

Re:And a round of slow clapping began....

[DarkWicked]

I've been a Fedora user since Fedora Core 3. It's my only OS, and most of my time is spent in front of it (for work and leisure). I was shocked when I discovered Gnome 3 and all the things it "broke" for me and the way I interact with my computer. I felt like my computer had suddenly lost a lot of its value and functionality.

I tried to get used to it, I tried add-ons, I tried Cinnamon, Xfce, Lxde... But nothing felt right. Until I tried KDE. I was shocked to find that it was -or could be made to look and feel- exactly like Gnome 2, but more modern and with a ton of options and cool features Gnome2 didn't have. I'm not going back to Gnome 2.

Re:And a round of slow clapping began....

[badkarmadayaccount]

Welcome to the KDE clan, brother, try Amarok, it has multipane playlist editing that beats even VLC.

wow

[Anonymous Coward]

what a fail

Gnome 3 is DEAD; long live Gnome

[Mister Liberty]

2 that is.

It just works

[Anonymous Coward]

Used Fiesty heavily and loved it but my Linux usage slipped more with each Ubuntu "upgrade".
Thankfully the 12.04 upgrade trashed my main Ubuntu install and I loaded Linux Mint Maya MATE.

I love it! I'm back up to 90% Linux/10% Windows.

Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[slackware 3.6]

Fedora was the first to jump on Gnome 3. They should work on getting the kinks out instead of trying to go back in time or trying to be a crappy Mint wannabe with no codecs. My boxes have been geting switched over to Mageia (from F 16 & 17) because fewer updates and more stable with Gnome 3.
If you take away Gnome 3 and Unity you will lose alot of new linux users. New users want something cool and flashy not something that looks like a clone of Windows from years past.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[Anonymous Coward]

Says you. You must be some part-time home-hobby geek or something.

The rest of us who actually work every day with linux on our desktops just want to get our work done and want to be able to do things without 17 mouse movements all over the desktop trying to make a mouse emulate a touch-screen.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[Anonymous Coward]

Work on getting teh kinks out? Gnome has made it perfectly clear they don't give a fuck about user feedback. The fact that you're using Gnome 3 and/or Unity tells me you're exactly the kind of user no one wants to deal with. Gnome 2 + compiz still has more flash than OSX or Win7 and actually worked, unlike the pile of shit that is Gnome 3.
>Unity.
Get out.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[Ignacio]

They should work on getting the kinks out instead of trying to go back in time or trying to be a crappy Mint wannabe with no codecs.

GNOME 3 doesn't have "kinks", it has major usability regressions. They can't be "gotten out", they must be destroyed.

New users want something cool and flashy not something that looks like a clone of Windows from years past.

Only if you want all your new users to be teenage kids.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[rrohbeck]

Remember that Fedora is the testing grounds for RHEL.
Without Mate RHEL would have to go to Gnome3 in the next major release. The user base would not accept the usability issues.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[ADRA]

I always assumed people wanted a piece of software that worked, and did what you want from it. If a desktop operating system can't do simple tasks that a normal user is assustomed to, then it is a failure.

From a personal value judgement, if you have to sacrafice functionality (regarless of if its the way YOU work) for a design philosophy, you'ew probably going to alienate a ton of people who will abandon your endeavors. There are many many reasons for 'new' Linux users that have nothing to do with crazy odd-ball UI changes that make the OS look flashy. A rock solid simple desktop OS that doesn't 'get in my way' is awsome in itself.

Thirdly, Fedora is and has been the testbed for RHEL releases that follow. If they're considering MATE as another (possibly main) desktop environment, then there's a really good chance thay they're getting push back from their customers (you know, the people who actually pay money for their choice in software). Of course, this may just be yet another alternative to appease the masses who are generally diss-satisfied with G3. It all depends on what the default deployment options for F18, F19 will be to see how much people are for/against the DE.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[jc79]

Eh? No one's removing Gnome 3 from Fedora. MATE is being added as an extra desktop environment. Gnome 3 will still be the default. This is an additional feature, not a replacement.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[gbjbaanb]

f**k me, you're saying the software is there for the benefit of its users and no the other way round?!!?!?!!

no way! As if! inconceivable!

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[epyT-R]

it's possible to have aesthetics without compromising functionality, but that's not what these new interfaces do (gnome 3/unity/metro/windows phone/ios'd osx etc). they sacrifice functionality (lots of it) for the sake of looks and a flat learning curve.. the problem is that flat learning curves come with flat power curves. it doesn't need to be either extreme, just a sane default in the middle somewhere, with extensibility/configurability to get it where the user needs it.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[arth1]

Eh? No one's removing Gnome 3 from Fedora. MATE is being added as an extra desktop environment. Gnome 3 will still be the default.

Not for long if they can't get it to work reliably and identically across different platforms and hardware.

Remember who foots the bill - me and thousands of other Red Hat Enterprise Linux customers who each put thousands of dollars into Red Hat every year. We expect RHEL 7 and 8 to be based on stable versions of Fedora that actually work, consistently and identically for all our machines, whether they be workstations with super graphics cards and quad monitors or servers with low-end graphics serving remote X or VMs.

If Fedora refuses to play ball and be a viable basis for the next RHEL, what's its value for Red Hat and its customers?

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[slackware 3.6]

Keyboard shortcuts help alot and so does a trackball. If I have anthing important Slackware or Debian to the rescue. But face it most computers are for games or internet access. My 3 year old can log in to the computer (3 letter pasword on kids account) and play SuperTux better than me his needs and his babysitters needs are not my needs. And Firefox looks just as good from Gnome 3 as it does from any other DE.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[slackware 3.6]

I don't use Unity or any of the buntus or derivatives. Also see above post. My 3 year old kid doesn't like Openbox.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[slackware 3.6]

Would you rather all the teenage kids use Win 8 or OSX? Maybe a few will think its cool and look a little further under the hood. People don't really use Ubuntu on any machine other than what amounts to toys do they. I'd freak if I found out my banks computer systems ran off Mint for example.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[lister king of smeg]

why mint is a stable debian derivative. it is more secure than windows and free so they aren't paying for a license with your money?

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[Ignacio]

Would you rather all the teenage kids use Win 8 or OSX?

That's the sound of my argument sailing clear over your head. Kids will use whatever's there. We need to convince adults that they want to have Linux around, and you won't do that with a completely foreign interface on a classic PC. Hell, there's still installations of Windows 98 floating around that people are (mostly) happy with.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[Anonymous Coward]

One keyboard button and one mouse click to open my browser. You are doing it wrong.

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[Anonymous Coward]

"People don't really use Ubuntu on any machine other than what amounts to toys do they." ?

Incorrect - they do.

"I'd freak if I found out my banks computer systems ran off Mint for example."

Why?

Some banks I've worked with have used some fairly esoteric Linux distributions.
  I'd be more afraid if I found out that a bank use Wintendo for core services,

Re:Kind of sems like a step backwards.

[jc79]

Gnome 3's been the default in Fedora for three releases now. I don't see that changing, regardless of what downstream distributions may choose for themselves..

I don't know what Red Hat's plans for the default DE in RHEL7 are, but it's not like they're bound to choose the same defaults as Fedora. If MATE works reliably in F18 then RH may well choose it for RHEL, but that doesn't affect Fedora's choice of default, given that part of Fedora's remit is to get bleeding edge software onto a large number of machines precisely to iron out these kinds of issues.

Besides, if you're deploying RHEL across hundreds of machines, you're probably not going with the defaults anyway. You're free to choose whatever DE you like as long as it's supported - LXDE, KDE, XFCE, MATE, Gnome 3 should all be available.

Mint

[Faisal Rehman]

It IS customized mint desktop.

clone of Windows

[Mister Liberty]

Famous last words. Whatever happened to trying to be your own original self. Like in what made FOSS great?

Fixed API breakage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have the MATE folks fixed the broken API/namespace issues that their crazy-mad s/GNOME/MATE/ caused? Things like https://github.com/mate-desktop/mate-settings-daemon/issues/7 for example?

I do love the concept of the MATE project, but the reality is that this kind of breakage just breaks the cohesion of the desktop and makes it difficult to use. It can't take me 14 clicks to pause/mute the music before I can answer the phone.

At least, thankfully, supposedly they have fixed the broken keyring stuff. Might be worth giving another try if that's indeed fixed.

Re:Fixed API breakage?

[Ignacio]

Now that they have someone big on their side, they stand a good chance of getting these issues cleared up.

Re:Fixed API breakage?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that they renamed everything.

We're all missing the point

[supersloshy]

This is being blown way out of proportion. We're all acting like this means that Fedora is dropping GNOME 3 for MATE or something crazy like that. From what I can tell they're simply just porting the packages to Fedora, nothing more. Maybe they'll offer a version with MATE as the default configuration, but this doesn't show any signs of replacing GNOME 3 in the future. Lets be realistic and read the articles, folks.

Also, unrelated, but I feel like the GNOME 3 hate is really blown out of proportion. Sure, some users were driven away, but the exact same thing happened with GNOME 2 and people called it trash and crap and whatever else. By the time that GNOME 3 is mature and more stable, it will have a large userbase again. I can guarantee it. I, personally, really love it as it is, especially how easily extensible it is. I don't know another desktop that allows so many customization options through extensions like that. You can really change near everything with a little tweak and you can write one yourself in minutes.

Re:We're all missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Gnome 3 isn't stabilizing.
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/07/is-the-new-nautilus-a-step-in-the-direction-poll
A lot of things are changing frequently, with every release I have to get used some new UI.

Re:We're all missing the point

[blind biker]

Also, unrelated, but I feel like the GNOME 3 hate is really blown out of proportion. Sure, some users were driven away, but the exact same thing happened with GNOME 2 and people called it trash and crap and whatever else. By the time that GNOME 3 is mature and more stable, it will have a large userbase again. I can guarantee it. I, personally, really love it as it is, especially how easily extensible it is. I don't know another desktop that allows so many customization options through extensions like that. You can really change near everything with a little tweak and you can write one yourself in minutes.

That's bullshit - I was there when Gnome 2 was born. There were some critics, but nowhere near the backlash that accompanies Gnome 3.

Your post reminds me exactly of the Windows Vista apologists: they would say things like "When Windows XP came out, there were just as many people who hated it. like the ones who hate Vista. In the end, it will be a success like XP." Turns out, all those apologists were full of shit, and Vista really is the turd that everybody thought it was.

Re:We're all missing the point

[Anne Thwacks]

By the time that GNOME 3 is mature and more stable, it will have a large userbase again.And Gnome 4 will replace it with new, improved bugs and an incomprehensible UI

FTFY

Re:We're all missing the point

[TheNinjaroach]

By the time that GNOME 3 is mature and more stable, it will have a large userbase again.

Man, that's a terribly bad way to manage a large software project.

I, for one, wish my Linux desktop environment had less "throw it all out and start over" regressions

I'd like to see more carefully planned upgrades that have less breakage while still moving forward in smaller increments.

Re:We're all missing the point

[Yenya]

Also, unrelated, but I feel like the GNOME 3 hate is really blown out of proportion. Sure, some users were driven away, but the exact same thing happened with GNOME 2 and people called it trash and crap and whatever else.

And they were right.

I have been using GNOME since GNOME 1 times, and I think for former GNOME users the GNOME 3 fiasco is not something unexpected, it is a logical outcome of the overall trend in GNOME development.

I remember Sawmill/Sawfish being replaced by Metacity, which even in the latest GNOME 2 releases was not able to do things which were supported in Sawfish since day 1 and still are.

I remember Galeon being pushed out of GNOME and replaced by Epiphany (seriously, did anybody used Epiphany?), and again, Galeon was more capable than Firefox (and of course than Epiphany, but no surprise here), until it bit-rotted enough to be removed from Fedora about year and half ago.

I remember GDM being rewritten for GNOME 2.20, omitting XDMCP support altogether (a display manager without XDMCP, would you believe that?) and removing the config file, in which the user previously could set his own X server options, allowing, for example, correct multi-seat support. Those features were promised to be added later, but they never were, with the notable exception of the XDMCP support. And guess what? GDM in GNOME 3 is said to support multi-seat, but it generates its own hard-coded xorg.conf for secondary seats somewhere under /run, and again there is no way to configure the xorg.conf for secondary seats.

So no, GNOME 3 has not been a surprise, at least for me. GNOME 3 has been a logical outcome of the general trend, which has been visible in the GNOME development for several years. That said, GNOME 2 was bearable for me for general use (with Galeon, xdm, and Sawfish). When GNOME 3 was released, I have finally switched to XFCE.

Re:We're all missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't matter Fedora is not dumping GNOME 3. I'd never want that because there are use cases where GNOME 3 makes sense (tablets? unfortunately nobody is deploying it there).

I just want choice. Thanks for the MATE team for this (and Fedora for having common sense).

Re:We're all missing the point

[supersloshy]

Vista wasn't crap, though. For me it was perfectly usable. It had a few quirks here and there but doesn't every OS? Not only that but what's so bad about liking GNOME 3?

Oh, and could you please use more profanity? You're coming off as too mature for me to handle.

Re:We're all missing the point

[jones_supa]

This. Pretty much all desktop environments in Linux world are released way too early in mainline distro releases, while their quality is still something that would be counted as alpha or beta level if they were commercial software!

Re:We're all missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

if you're butthurt about profanity, just get off the net and hide in your basement.. butthurt pc types like you are the enemy of free expression.

Re:We're all missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh... Under the hood, it was crap. 40% degredation in framerates for DX9 and previous titles- and the DX10 stuff...well, it was embarassing for both AMD and NVidia during the first parts of Vista's initial availability. There were no improvements, really, for the guts and the UI "improvements" were hasty rip-offs from the Linux crowd's eye-candy. There was nothing compelling about Vista to anyone except Microsoft which put in all sorts of DRM never before in an OS.

If you found it not to be crap...heh...no accounting for taste.

Re:We're all missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets be realistic and read the articles, folks.

You must be new here.

Re:We're all missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

> but I feel like the GNOME 3 hate is really blown out of proportion.

Gnome3 was only hated because at the same time Gnome2 was deliberately killed and all distros immediately dropped it from their repositories in order to force-boost Gnome3 adoption.

Had people been able to just keep using Gnome2, the desktop they've got used to and heavily invested into over the previous 10 years, Gnome3 would just have been a "meh".

The sensible approach would have been to merely offer Gnome3 and keep maintaining Gnome2 for the next 5+ years. But Gnome3 devs _knew_ what turd they are producing there, and they _knew_ that without force nobody will take the adoption hurdle, so in an unbelieveably selfish move, they deliberately decided to apply that force by simply killing off the premier Linux desktop, basically telling their own users "sucks to be you, heh, now you have no other choice but to adopt Gnome3, hehehe."

This ruthless and selfish killing off of Gnome2 was what enraged everybody, not Gnome3's mere existence.

Re:We're all missing the point

[RabidReindeer]

Also, unrelated, but I feel like the GNOME 3 hate is really blown out of proportion. Sure, some users were driven away, but the exact same thing happened with GNOME 2 and people called it trash and crap and whatever else. By the time that GNOME 3 is mature and more stable, it will have a large userbase again. I can guarantee it. I, personally, really love it as it is, especially how easily extensible it is. I don't know another desktop that allows so many customization options through extensions like that. You can really change near everything with a little tweak and you can write one yourself in minutes.

I didn't even notice when Gnome 2 took over.

Unlike Gnome 3, it didn't remove about 4 major desktop features that I use all day long each and every day with no way to restore them.

Re:We're all missing the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only was there less backlash against Gnome 2, but the shortcomings ended up getting fixed. Remember spatial browsing? No, neither do I!

Sensationalist: it's just packaging

[diegocg]

Fedora is going to continue to be a Gnome 3 distro. They are not doing anything special with Mate, they are just going to package it for people that wants to install it.

Since when packaging something is newsworthy?

Re:Sensationalist: it's just packaging

[gagol]

Since slashdot! And it will probably resurface as news in 3-4 months...

Re:Sensationalist: it's just packaging

[Billly Gates]

It is special. It means it is supported and compiled with the same settings as the rest of the distro. This means less problems and integration as all the other apps use the same flags like --gtk.

I left Linux because of gnome3. No sense sticking with gnome2 if it is not supported and will not even compile anymore as the apis and libraries move on. Mate on the other hand means it is still being updated and I am relieved. Now if it starts using gtk 3 and other things that would be welcome too and may give me the urge to at least try it again.

Re:Sensationalist: it's just packaging

[rrohbeck]

Mate will be the default in one of the next Fedora releases, in preparation for RHEL7.
Mark my words.

Re:Sensationalist: it's just packaging

[jones_supa]

Since when packaging something is newsworthy?

Since couple of weeks ago... :)

Car analogy

[gagol]

The vehicle driving interface have not changed much in the last 80 years or so. This has not stopped us to innovate vehicles. Imagine that every 10 years or so, car manufacturers decided that a steering wheel and pedals are out of fashion and should be replaced by something fundamentally different.

The mess we have today in many fields is related to our priorities as a specie. We placed eyecandy before efficiency and this means we place a tremendous amount of energy in entertainment, games and trendy gadgets that sole goals are to steer attention away from real problems by having an entertainment industry so huge.

\

Re:Car analogy

[tuffy]

Modern GUIs still have windows and scrollbars and buttons, just as a modern car has a steering wheel and pedals. That hasn't stopped some car makers from screwing up the shifters and radio knobs from one model to the next, just as OS makers do.

One would hope these mistakes will lead us to better interfaces than before, but there's bound to be some setbacks along the way.

Re:Car analogy

[hobarrera]

Let's be honest: steering wheels, pedals and levers should have been replaced by now.

Re:Car analogy

[gagol]

Of course all car analogies have flaws! The basic point is the trend is to add chrome to the car... will use more resources in both cases and do not serve any real purpose aside from the young users feeling "cool" with their computing devices... I REALLY hate trends for the sake of trends, but its just me ;-)

Re:Car analogy

[Desler]

Why other than stupid reasons like 'they are old'? They are perfectly functional and even idiots can use them.

Re:Car analogy

[Anne Thwacks]

even idiots can use them.

I think you just answered your own question

Re:Car analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

Therein lies the problem. Sometimes, an interface needs a minimum standard of intelligence for the good of the species.

Re:Car analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, wire up a playstation controller to your car and let us know how that works out for you.

Re:Car analogy

[FitForTheSun]

Good job focusing on two interface elements and ignoring all the others. Since the introduction of the steering wheel and foot pedals, we have

* electric start instead of cranking the engine
* the introduction of the ignition key
* shifters moving from steering column to floorboard
* turn signals instead of hand signals
* cruise control instead of pressing down the accelerator
* a bunch of buttons on the wheel for cruise control
* a bunch of buttons on the wheel for radio
* the loss of the clutch pedal in most vehicles
* the introduction of windshield wipers and mirrors and headlights

None of these are "trends for trend sake". All you've got on your list is

* steering wheels are still round
* the gas pedal is still to the right of the brake pedal

And by the way, steering wheels don't work exactly the way they used to, and neither do gas pedals

* steering wheels are smaller now, and when you turn them a machine turns the wheels instead of you turning them directly
* floor pedals sometimes move themselves, as with cruise control or emergency braking

All that said, I still don't like Gnome 3. Some change is good, some is bad. You're allowed to have an opinion on Gnome, even if your car analogy is a bad analogy.

Re:Car analogy

[gagol]

+1 Funny, who modded parent down dont get sarcasm... I believe it would be simpler to simply remove all warnings labels...

Re:Car analogy

[arth1]

* the introduction of windshield wipers and mirrors and headlights

Headlights were invented long before the automobile.

You're allowed to have an opinion on Gnome, even if your car analogy is a bad analogy.

Indeed it is. Gnome shell is like having a car with the steering wheel is in the glove box, and you can look out either a window or a mirror, but not both at the same time.
The dashboard is much prettier though, without all the instruments and that pesky steering wheel.

Re:Car analogy

[epyT-R]

should implies a better alternative.. what is that?

Re:Car analogy

[Sigg3.net]

The dashboard analogy is an example of good design. You must access a lot of information without taking your focus from driving.

Maybe Gnome devas should hold that as an ideal, and not Unity, that's a television OS.

Re:Car analogy

[ChrisMaple]

Specie means coin. "Species" is both singular and plural, referring to groups or categories of living things.

Re:Car analogy

[hobarrera]

They're unconfortable, require all limbs (meaning "they're not easily usable by people with ONE broken/missing limb").
They're not intuitive for people that are learning how to drive.
Using one's feet to control a machine isn't what people are used to. I can adapt to lots of different stuff, but applying different amounts of pressure with my foot is something I could never really get used to.

Re:Car analogy

[hobarrera]

It takes me about 2 minutes to learn how use new gamepads, or joysticks on racing video games.
It took a full hour of explanation how to start and use a car (excluding everything that includes rules of transit, etc).

There's someting clearly non-intuitive about how cars are driven, and, as I said before, applying differente levels of pressure with a foot isn't something humans are used to nowadays.

Thank GOD!

[ndtechnologies]

Someone needs to put a bullet in the head of GNOME 3. What an abomination it's become...and it sucks too.

Re:Thank GOD!

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the distros just have to make it so that GNOME 3 is NOT the default desktop.
Use XFCE or KDE for that. For the class of deluded users GNOME is chasing they can "add" their shitty experience afterwards. But at least 90% of linux users will have a sane desktop from the start.

Yikes

[Kevin Fishburne]

Oooo, ouch and damn. Poor GNOME team. How many eighths have they lost now?

Re:Yikes

[fluffythedestroyer]

They took a chance to change the design, they failed. The question now will they admit it, look at their situation and take a step backwards and finally listen to their community and their fans... that's an interesting question.

the best community

[fluffythedestroyer]

This proves that linux is the best community. They base most (if not all) of their decisions on their community rather than cash, corporatism or capitalism. I'm not saying the other community are bad but next to linux...it's hard to beat. Look at fedora, they fed team noticed a trend towards another desktop manage, they viewed it, they listened and they changed direction which I must say it pretty rare these days. I know some dev team work with themselves only and formed a closed group and base their decision based on the dev only and not the community unless the demand is getting excessive.

And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure?

[halfdan the black]

A thousand developers all going a thousand different directions.

? One of Gnome3 biggest failures is they provide very little documentation on how to customize / modify it. Gnome3 is a actually a dammed good design and provides for immense customizability. Want it to behave like Gnome2, all you have to do is write a bit of JavaScript and glue the bits together is a Gnome2 style, thats it. I truly have no idea why the Gnome3 developers want to hide all the great work they have done. Its so easy to write themes / extension, but why do we have to install these fucking 3rd party tools like Gnome Tweak Tool, WTF is it not built into Gnome3???

There is no fucking need to waste everyones time extending Gnome2.

If these MATE clowns would have just taken a look at Gnome3, they could have made it work exactly like Gnome2 without introducing all this insane complexity of maintaining another dammed desktop.

I'm sorry, but these MATE clowns really piss me off, they could have worked with the Gnome3 developers to fix the problems with Gnome3, but instead, they go off their own way, and create duplicate dead effort.

So, how many God dammed desktops does Linux have now? do we really need so many? The look / feel of just about any of these desktops can be achieved with a custom shell built on Gnome3, much like Mint. So what does this MATE shit do for developers like me, now they expect me to support GTK3 and GTK2?? Why can't these desktop developers learn to get along or at least take a look at Gnome3 and see what you can build on it.

Sorry for this rant, but this complete and total inability to get along, work with, or at least look at what other developers are doing is so fucking ridiculous. We don't need another desktop, we just need to fix the ones we have.

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure?

[Desler]

Except the GNOME people don't want to work with outsiders or take criticism. All they want is some echo chamber circle jerk. This is why people have gotten frustrated.

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure?

[nullchar]

A thousand developers all going a thousand different directions.

And after a thousand compilations each day and after a thousand days, we will end up with the most beautiful Desktop Environment ever!

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except the GNOME people don't want to work with outsiders or take criticism. All they want is some echo chamber circle jerk. This is why people have gotten frustrated.

Then the biggest weapon we have is to ignore them. Make the distros ignore them also.
After a while no one will care what those jerks do or do not.

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure?

[epyT-R]

1. they dont' want input from users. they don't want users tweaking its innards. users are expected to update their workflows and expectations to the 'one true path.'
2. sure there is. if gnome 3 is going the flat-learning-curve/flat-power-curve route...
3. no they couldn't, well, not as easily. gnome2 is say 90% of what modern users want. it's easier to add the 10% and get it working well, than rewriting half of gnome3 and resyncing their changes with every gnome release.
4. talk to the gnome3 devs.. their demagoguery is the problem. their slavish apple chasing attitude is another.

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure?

[halfdan the black]

1. they dont' want input from users. they don't want users tweaking its innards. users are expected to update their workflows and expectations to the 'one true path.'

you know this because?

2. sure there is. if gnome 3 is going the flat-learning-curve/flat-power-curve route...

I agree, Gnome 3 with the defaults sucks, WTF could they not have made tweak tool part of the control panel??? or at least default install. But just grab tweak tool and some extensions and Gnome3 is nice.

3. no they couldn't, well, not as easily. gnome2 is say 90% of what modern users want. it's easier to add the 10% and get it working well, than rewriting half of gnome3 and resyncing their changes with every gnome release.

No need to 're-write' it, just use the components, and tie them together differently, basic simple javascript.

4. talk to the gnome3 devs.. their demagoguery is the problem. their slavish apple chasing attitude is another.

Again, you know this because?

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure?

[halfdan the black]

Have you actually spoken with them, or just parroting what someone allegedly said? I've submitted some patches just fine.

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure?

[lister king of smeg]

You just made everyones point for them. They should not have to install gnome tweak to bring back basic functionality. We should not have to install extension to make a desktop usable. As for those extension, how do you build them when the api is a moving undocumented target as you yourself admitted? You said your a developer and now have a mess because mate uses gtk2 and gnome uses gtk3, well those are just libraries pick one, you can have both on the same system. that won't even be an issue long because (iirc) mate plans to port all of their apps to gtk3 eventually.

Re:And you wonder why desktop Linux is a failure?

[epyT-R]

because I've used it. it's obvious the thing was meant to be used as is, with very little tweaking.. I've already tried to explain why they don't include the tweak tool. it's for the same reasons microsoft doesn't want you messing with that 'command bar' in windows 7 or the full screen start menu in windows 8 (apple does similar things with osx, to the point of threatening lawsuits against 3rd party skins/hacks). the attitude is 'it's just better, get used to it' rather than 'here's what we think is a sane default, but you can customize it as much as you like.'

it might be possible to fix these with a hack, but one shouldn't need hacks for basic functionality. if that's what's needed, the software's broken. it's better to replace the whole thing (hence MATE). writing javascript patches for things isn't exactly user friendly, which is what the gnome people were supposedly going for..friendly as in mouthbreathing moron friendly. these people will never write javascript in their lives. hell, most programmers are too lazy to write code for functionality that should only require a single click-drag. if we're back to writing code for everything, why have a GUI at all? desktop environments are supposed to provide flexibility for the user to define his own workflow by providing reasonable building blocks with intuitive hints, and a sane set of default layouts to start with. it really is a case of 'undevelopment' as these capabilities have been around for the last 15 years or more. why remove them? reading the mailing list suggests they're so far up the ivory tower, they're breathing vacuum, and honestly, it shows. they want to find 'the one true workflow' and force everyone to use it. this is ass-backwards.

Other distros

[phorm]

Perhaps this will serve as a wake-up-call to other distros (*cough* ubuntu *cough*).
New shinies are nice. Choice is better.

Re:Other distros

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux Mint is binary compatible with Ubuntu.

Just sayin'.

So in OSS

[future assassin]

its good to fork once in a while to keep the projects momentum going and bring in new blood?

I Use Gentoo Linux...

[JohnnyMindcrime]

....so looking forward to using MATE when it's finished compiling some time in 2014. :-)

Re:I Use Gentoo Linux...

[Anomalyst]

....so looking forward to using MATE when it's finished compiling some time in 2014. :-)

That is just 1.5 Grateful Dead songs away!

Speaking for the gnome shell users

[Anonymous Coward]

because they're all so happy getting on with work with their fast efficient UIs rather than reading slashdot

may need to look at it again

[Tora]

I may actually go back to Fedora. Once it switched to GNOME3, I dropped it in lieu of CentOS6.

I am insanely curious to know what kindof hit they had on users after GNOME3 was integrated. There has to be a drop.

Re:may need to look at it again

[Ignacio]

A bit, yes. But most that didn't like GNOME 3 switched over to XFCE or KDE, and some then went on to MATE once Fedora packages became available.

no, Vista actually became better

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post reminds me exactly of the Windows Vista apologists: they would say things like "When Windows XP came out, there were just as many people who hated it. like the ones who hate Vista. In the end, it will be a success like XP." Turns out, all those apologists were full of shit, and Vista really is the turd that everybody thought it was.

I am typing this from my laptop running Windows Vista. It is an insult to Windows Vista to compare it to Gnome 3, or KDE 4.Windows Vista just needed a year or two of bug fixes, and updated drivers. Security was improved. More improvements were made, which became Windows 7. Yes, Vista uses more memory than XP, just like Gnome and KDE have grown in footprint. Doing things, like using bluetooth, webcams, scanners, or changing monitor resolution are easy, and mostly problem free in Vista, but troublesome in Gnome 3 and KDE 4. I switched back to Windows, when I stopped programming, because Gnome 3 and KDE 4 are so troublesome.

Debian?

[rrohbeck]

Where is Debian? I still don't see Mate in the standard repos, let alone as an installation option (or, preferably, the default.)
I've been running XFCE4 for a while but, frankly, the longer I use it the more issues I find. Like VNC and NX interoperability, or the infamous xfce4-terminal hang that just caused me to lose some work last night.

Re:Debian?

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like debian developers object to maintaining all the libraries used mate, but the mate project maintains a debian repository.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/02/msg00257.html
http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/download#debian

I personally doubt that Mate will survive in the long run, but at least it will be interesting to see what happens.

Re:Debian?

[rrohbeck]

If RedHat bets on it (and I think they will for RHEL) then it will not just survive.

Re:Debian?

[Anonymous Coward]

Once the RHEL customers start complaning about lacking features, then Redhat will have to stop removing functionality to gnome. They will be forced to choose between existing enterprise customers and imaginary tablet customers.

Re:Debian?

[petermgreen]

Someone brought up the possibility of mate in debian but debian doesn't like code duplication (it's not exactly forbidden but it's strongly discouraged). It could still happen of course but if and when it does it will be controversial.

For debian i386 and amd64 users the mate guys offer packages but users of other debian architectures are less lucky.

Re:Debian?

[rrohbeck]

RedHat is not a tablet OS and they've had Gnome2 for years. Switching to Gnome3 would alienate most users. Unless the Gnome project gets its act together and delivers a usable GUI (one that supports server hardware, i.e. primitive unaccelerated graphics) it will never make it into RHEL.

Re:Debian?

[Anonymous Coward]

Feel free to "vote" by clicking "affects me too" on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/876675

missing the point all right

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know another desktop that allows so many customization options through extensions like that. You can really change near everything with a little tweak and you can write one yourself in minutes.

Missing the point all right, but not in the way you think. We need to lose the mentality illustrated above - "go ahead and write some code" if you don't like something - if we ever plan to have Linux adopted by other people than coders. I don't want to write anything for my desktop to work, I have another job and I want the desktop to "just work" and be productive without arcane tweaks and insulting attitudes.

As an aside, Fedora is still the only OS I've tried that ties bug reporting to creating an account on a bug-tracking site (in this case bugzilla). For an OS that wants to be user-friendly, that's as annoying as it gets. Some program crashed. If you want to know about it, let it send the report and be done with it. Like Windows or MacOS or whatever. Most users don't care to follow up and you'd get a lot more information that way, in particular about the patterns and numbers of crashes. Even if I do care, I am not about to stop whatever I'm doing for creating an account with bugzilla and writing a little expose about what I was doing and what went wrong.

NOT for touch screens

[pscottdv]

For people who like their desktop to have familiar features rather than being dumbed down for touch screens?

There is no way Gnome 3 is designed for touch screens. Or at least, not for touchscreen-only computers. I use Fedora 17 on a pen-based computer (fujitsu stylistic) and I can tell you that if it were not for the fingerprint reader on it, Fedora would be *UNUSABLE*. Whenever Gnome 3 needs a password to connect to WiFi or to unlock the screen or unlock following suspend, THERE IS NO WAY TO ENTER THE PASSWORD! The password windows captures all mouse input so it is NOT possible to bring up an onscreen keyboard.

So lets stop pretending Gnome 3 shell is for tablet-type computers. It CANNOT BE USED ON A COMPUTER WITHOUT A KEYBOARD.

Oh, and when one IS able to use the on-screen keyboard, it has is no tilda (~) character. Not that you would ever need to type a tilda on a unix-like operating system.

I've filed bugs on all these complaints, but there has been no action.

Are you listening Gnome team?

Re:NOT for touch screens

[Desler]

There is no way Gnome 3 is designed for touch screens.

So then why do they make changes where the commit log talks about the change was for touch screen users?

Re:NOT for touch screens

[pscottdv]

I suppose they THINK they are developing for touch screen devices. But they are fooling themselves. I ran into the problems I described within the first 2 minutes of using Gnome 3 on a touch-screen-only device.

That tells me that not one gnome shell developer runs Gnome 3 on a touch-screen-only device. Not one. Seriously. Because if there was such a developer, he or she would have run across the same problem within the first two minutes of use. Connect to encrypted WiFi? Can't be done without a keyboard. Resume from suspend? Again, can't be done without a keyboard. Type a tilda? Can't do it without a keyboard or a third-party on-screen keyboard program.

These aren't subtle little use-cases hiding in the corners. These are major problems that ANYONE attempting to use Gnome 3 on a touch-screen device will run into within the first couple of MINUTES of use. These are problems that the Gnome developers know about (because I have reported them) and that they have refused to address. They don't even comment on the bugs. They just let them sit. For years.

Re:NOT for touch screens

[Kwpolska]

And now, replace "GNOME 3" with "Windows 8" and "touch screen device" with "non-touch device".

Re:NOT for touch screens

[pscottdv]

I just got a picture in my mind of a cube-farm full of win8 devs feverishly trying to write an OS on tablets with no keyboard or mouse!

Re:NOT for touch screens

[lsatenstein]

For people who like their desktop to have familiar features rather than being dumbed down for touch screens?

There is no way Gnome 3 is designed for touch screens. Or at least, not for touchscreen-only computers. I use Fedora 17 on a pen-based computer (fujitsu stylistic) and I can tell you that if it were not for the fingerprint reader on it, Fedora would be *UNUSABLE*. Whenever Gnome 3 needs a password to connect to WiFi or to unlock the screen or unlock following suspend, THERE IS NO WAY TO ENTER THE PASSWORD! The password windows captures all mouse input so it is NOT possible to bring up an onscreen keyboard.

So lets stop pretending Gnome 3 shell is for tablet-type computers. It CANNOT BE USED ON A COMPUTER WITHOUT A KEYBOARD.

Oh, and when one IS able to use the on-screen keyboard, it has is no tilda (~) character. Not that you would ever need to type a tilda on a unix-like operating system.

I've filed bugs on all these complaints, but there has been no action.

Are you listening Gnome team?

Gee, "What am I to do without a Ñ or a ñ?" How will I do a ls ~ or the accented characters such as
ôï or é or É or even â

Good news

[jfp51]

I left Fedora after using it for many years because of the Gnome 3 crap-fest. Been using MATE on Mint since then and have been very satisified. Understand that Fedora is cutting edge and used to test and develop new stuff for RHEL but Gnome 3 was unusable (for me, hate it when others make all the UI decisions for me, no minimize because it is against their philosophy, please...) Going to take out F18 for a spin for sure, always nice to have options. And once again, not bashing Gnome 3, to each their own, it only failed from my point of view!

Supporting older computers

[Michael Meissner]

Given how many decent, albeit old, chips covered by the Gnome 3 blacklist - this shouldn't be a surprise.

Yes, I'm in Fedora update hell right now. My Dell D620 laptop is running Fedora 14, and I was trying to update to Fedora 17, had it hang after downloading all of the stuff I used on F14. The reason I'm trying to upgrade now, is I want to switch to Arduino 1.0 instead of 0.22, and the newer avrdude will not work on the old system.

Re:Supporting older computers

[ChrisMaple]

If you're literally doing update/upgrade, you're taking the riskier approach. The way with the best chance of actually working is to do a complete new install, adjust settings to your liking (you kept records of what you did last time, right?), and then struggle with porting over stuff from F14 not available under F17. If you have the room, setting up for dual boot of F14/F17 gives the best chance of having everything work.

Re:Supporting older computers

[Michael Meissner]

If you're literally doing update/upgrade, you're taking the riskier approach. The way with the best chance of actually working is to do a complete new install, adjust settings to your liking (you kept records of what you did last time, right?), and then struggle with porting over stuff from F14 not available under F17. If you have the room, setting up for dual boot of F14/F17 gives the best chance of having everything work.

I never do an update as is. For the last 20-30 years, on most every UNIX and Linux system I've worked on, I have at least two root partitions, and a data partition. I always install a new version in a new partition, twiddle until I like it, and then change the default. At the moment, I did a minimal install, and it sort of worked, and then did yum install's for all of the various things I use, and switch over to using the home partition. For things like gnome, etc. I have an OS abstraction directory (/meissner) and my home files have symlinks to the abstraction directory. This means when I try out say Fedora 17, I clone the directory from the existing systeam, and any changes won't affect my settings for Fedora 14. The switch from grub to grub2 is an annoyance, just like when I switched from lilo to grub. But for me, the big thing is the Intel 945GM chip that my laptop uses is no longer supported for the default usage, and I have to figure out how to whack gnome3 not to use it.

Re:New features includes file sharing over bluetoo

[Gaygirlie]

Huh? I've been sharing files over bluetooth for a couple of years, in both KDE and Windows.

You have been able to use Bluetooth file-sharing in GNOME2 for years now, but that functionality was never actually a part of GNOME2, it was provided by an outside package. This announcement just basically says the Mate - team has now made that functionality a part of the actual Mate desktop environment.

bluetooth is faster than Samba over wifi!

Bluetooth v1.1 has a maximum available bandwidth of 0.7 Mbit/s, v2.1 has a maximum available bandwidth of 2.1 Mbit/s and Bluetooth 3.0+HS and Bluetooth 4.0 have a theoretical bandwidth of 24Mbit/s, though that bandwidth is actually provided by Wifi, not the Bluetooth - chipset itself. If you really are getting higher speeds with Bluetooth than with Wifi then your wireless settings are screwed up or you're having some serious interference.

Of course, the Windows machine needs a third-party app to run the bluetooth dongle (kubuntu does not).

You must have some strange off-standard dongle. I have several ones and none of them have ever required installation of anything under Windows or Linux.

What about Trinity for KDE v3.5.10 users?

[antdude]

Trinity. Not everyone likes KDE v4. :P

correction to original post

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, the last name is spelled Mashal and I am honored to be a part of this.

I guess some things never change

[Just Brew It!]

Desktop environments and toolkits have been horribly fragmented on *NIX systems since the beginning of X. I guess the Linux community is just carrying on that grand tradition.

I've been a GNOME (on Ubuntu) user for about 4 years, and was more or less planning to migrate to KDE when I finally upgrade to 12.04 as I really detest Unity and GNOME 3 just feels incomplete. I've also considered XFCE... I guess I really ought to give MATE a closer look too.

Who cares, XFCE works

[xiando]

> 2012
> Not having switched to XFCE4 long ago due to GNOME being a complete failure
come on, guys. Really?

MATE is awesome

[Anonymous Coward]

I installed Linux Mint with MATE the other day and I dare say I've never been happier with a combination of distro and DE. For now! Linux Mint + MATE = win.
Gnome 3 can go suck a horse's dick. :-D

Haters gonna hate

[Anonymous Coward]

This is only newsworthy if you think this is some kind of admission by the Fedora team that Gnome 3 sucks. It isn't, and it doesn't.
FWIW I am probably MORE productive now on my F17 Gnome 3 desktop than I ever was on Gnome 2. Or any one of the other dozen DE / window managers I have used in 20 years of *nix. My home setup, laptop + external monitor - rockin. My dual-monitor work desktop typically 4 workspaces, half-a-dozen terminals, Eclipse, a browser or two, email client, VirtualBox and other goodies on the go. Yes, I do real work in this environment. But please, do post and tell me how you're a power user and you're really sore that you lost your animated cpu thermal monitor in the panel (which you could recreate if you wanted, anyhow). But my real contempt I save for you cretins above complaining about Fedora 'changing stuff' - if you don't want to actively expose yourself to new things,why the heck are you using this distro, one of whose objectives is 'to be on the leading edge of free and open source technology'? Like it or don't, but don't be surprised when they try new things for chrissakes.

Re:New features includes file sharing over bluetoo

[mcgrew]

You have been able to use Bluetooth file-sharing in GNOME2 for years now, but that functionality was never actually a part of GNOME2, it was provided by an outside package.

Ah, like Windows then.

If you really are getting higher speeds with Bluetooth than with Wifi then your wireless settings are screwed up or you're having some serious interference.

Well, video streams are fine so it isn't the wifi. My guess is still roadblocks MS put in the OS to require W7pro that Samba hasn't quite gotten past.

You must have some strange off-standard dongle.

That's possible, but it's also possible that it would have worked in Windows without the installation programs.

Re:New features includes file sharing over bluetoo

[mcgrew]

Huh? I've been sharing files over bluetooth for a couple of years, in both KDE and Windows. In fact, because of MS's wanting you to not be able to connect to a network without a copy of Win 7 Pro on the network, bluetooth is faster than Samba over wifi! Of course, the Windows machine needs a third-party app to run the bluetooth dongle (kubuntu does not).

I guess I won't be trying this distro out...

Would someone please explain to me why they think that comment is a troll? 100% on-topic, 100% factual, didn't bash anyone. The two of you who downmodded that should never EVER have mod points.