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Wozniak On the Samsung Patent Verdict
dgharmon writes "'I hate it,' Wozniak told Bloomberg in Shanghai today, referring to the patent battle. He thinks the ruling will be overruled. Samsung will of course appeal, and this case will go back and forth for months still, but Wozniak just wishes everyone could get along. 'I don’t think the decision of California will hold. And I don’t agree with it — very small things I don’t really call that innovative. I wish everybody would just agree to exchange all the patents and everybody can build the best forms they want to use everybody’s technologies,' he said."
That would be amazing.
Apple STARTED this patent war. If they hadn't started aggressively going after the other major Smartphone makers, everyone would still be rolling along quietly.
"...and, you know, world peace would be great. Somebody should do that."
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
I suspect that nearly everyone except the lawyers and leadership wish we could get along. When the patent system was envisioned a long time ago, progress didn't happen nearly as quickly, consumerism wasn't so rampant (you didn't buy a new ANYTHING every two years except maybe a toothbrush), and the manufacturing cycle was MUCH longer than it is today.
I consider the lawyers of these tech companies (Apple, Samsung, Oracle, etc) to be exploiting 'bugs' in the patent system, and I suspect that most others do as well. The patent system needs a hotfix, and there's no political pressure to do so.
Apple STARTED this patent war.
Samsung started it with blatant copying of Apple products,
I agree with Woz, I wish it did not happen, but we should be clear that there are no clean companies in this war. Samsung clearly did copy substantially from Apple, and that triggered Apple to sue.
In an ideal world neither would have happened.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Er, its not the "decision of California".
First, because its not "of California", as it is in a U.S. federal court that happens to be located in California.
But mostly because its not even (yet, and quite possibly ever) even a decision in that court. Its the jury verdict which is still the subject of several post-verdict motions before the court finally (not considering appeals) decides on a judgement in the case.
"For anything non-trivial, it is simply illegal to develop software." Companies are getting away with patenting things that are trivial and obvious, for almost any piece of software, you're tripping over dozens of patents. If we were to enforce the letter of the law, developing software is illegal.
God spoke to me
It is truly sad that a voice of reason like Woz is so rare in "business" anymore.
Some men just want to watch the world burn...
mod me up. This is a design patent. There is no patent to exchange. This has nothing to do with the patent system, and wozniak mis-spoke.
Oh, but slashdot want's to complain about patents. o well. Mod me down (or nothing since I haz none anyway)
I knew Woz about 25-30 years ago when I worked as a systems engineering consultant in the Silicon Valley. He always impressed me as an engineer who was more focused on creating wild and new stuff, vs. Jobs who wanted to rule the world... :-) Well, Jobs ruled the world for awhile, but the Woz is still kicking ass and taking names!
One Steve made a name for himself by opening up computers. His idea that a desktop computer should be a big open platform that anybody can plug into dominates computer design to this very day, and had a lot to do with the explosive growth of computing.
The other Steve wanted to close up smartphones. Come to think of it, he took a control-freak attitude toward every product he ever launched. Ironic, really.
Agreed. We are well into the era of preemptive patents, where people claim as many possible permutations of function, form and use as they can without inventing anything. Which of course halts any sort of progress completely.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
... was the Apple ][e. Everything after that was utter crap.
Having the big companies exchanging patents just means the big players divide up the monopoly between them whilst suing the start ups out of existence.
While there are clearly other "iPhone-like" phones released before the iPhone, the Samsung F700 wasn't it. All that Wikipedia notes is that Samsung was ISSUED a design patent for the phone before Steve Jobs made his iPhone product announcement.
The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_SGH-F700) cites a Businessweek article (http://www.businessweek.com/printer/articles/16106-apple-s-war-on-android) that points to a convergence in the evolution of cellphone designs.
"Several Asian manufacturers were noodling around with similar-looking rectangular smartphones before the iPhone came to market. Tipping its hat to a fellow Korean manufacturer, Samsung notes that in 2006, nearly a year before the iPhone appeared, LG Electronics announced the round-cornered LG Chocolate, with 'virtually all of the [design] features Apple claims' to have patented. In December 2006, before Apple released images of the iPhone, Samsung itself filed a design patent in Korea for a similar rectangular phone called the F700. Smartphone and tablet-computer design was 'naturally evolving' in the direction Apple claims it has exclusive rights to use, according to Samsung. If true, that matters because basic patent law states that if an idea is 'obvious' to an 'ordinary observer' at the time of its invention, it doesn't deserve patent protection. By attacking Samsung, Apple has inadvertently put its own patents into play."
I'm not sure but perhaps Apple's only real innovation is in being the first (?) to eliminate the hardware keyboard completely. If I'm not mistaken all the previous "iPhone-like" designs had some sort of hidden/slide-out keyboard. Who knows, maybe Apples does have a patent for crippling hardware to make it look and feel "cool".
Please go and read the USPTO design patent D504889 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=D504,889.PN.&OS=PN/D504,889&RS=PN/D504,889) and then come back to us. That particular patent is **exactly** a rectangle with rounded corners.
There may have been other patents in play, but that one is essentially what people complain about when the discuss this issue.
I, for one, despise design patents. The whole point of patents were to be novel (ie, new), non-obvious (to those versed in the art), and **useful** - that's the three-prong test for a valid invention. Design patents are only allowed on non-functional (hence non-useful) stuff and have therefore mangled the entire inventive process.
"Good artists copy, great artists steal" - PICASSO
See, you can't even attribute the quote right.
And that's why you don't understand what it means. It doesn't mean LITERALLY steal. It means you find something you love, and understand it totally... then you re-make it into something that is like it was but is wholly yours.
It's a hard concept to explain without more understanding of art and creativity... this book will help.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Boycott Apple and Google, they only care about their wallets, and this nonsense proves it. These guys are evil mega-corps!
Get a blackberry instead, or whatever other company that specializes in phones/tablets and not 10,000 different things
Woz always seems to be sensible, realistic and honest. Make you wonder how S. Wozniak got mixed up with the likes of S. Jobs in the first place.
-Lod
"I wish everybody would just agree to exchange all the patents" This is a clear indication that Woz is a godless communist and should never be allowed anywhere near Cupertino ever again. :)
I love Steve Woz. He is a really cool guy and is really the original brains behind Apple. Apple may have skyrocketed into fame because of Steve Jobs' marketing but its Woz that made Apple who they are today. The man is a old fashioned hacker, which is something that is missing from today's computer hardware and software companies. The computer enthusiasts have been replaced by the greedy business men in the computer world and its really sad.
Woz is so cool. If only he were Apple's CEO, we wouldn't be having all these lawsuits, and we'd probably have some REAL innovation from Apple (not catching up to making a 4" screen and including LTE). C'mon, smartphone makers, where's that long-lasting battery power (perhaps with a solar panel on the back to boot)? Where's that built-in holographic projector (a la R2-D2)? Think how useful that would be in the corporate world! (Not to mention gaming!)
Apple and their fan base are the biggest bunch of crybabies I've ever witnessed.
Woz, on the other hand, continues to gain respect. A good man.
So, what's the purpose of all the FusionIO patents being filed where Woz is the Chief Scientist? Don't think for a moment that FusionIO would allow anyone to copy their technology without facing a lawsuit.
He does not have a clue about how to run a business. You don't get ahead by sharing everything you make and helping out the competition. Business is "war" and the nice guys finish last.
Apple lost the last desktop war because they were too nice and gave MSFT access to early prototypes of the Lisa and Macintosh.
Do you all think that Bill Gates and MSFT got to where they are by being "nice"?
I think the Woz needs to permanently retire and enjoy the rest of his life. Because he has been out of the game, I don't consider his opinions to be worth more than the average joe on the street. I'm sorry but that is reality. As much as I might admire his contributions to the early days of personal computers, he has not done much in the past decade.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Wow woz..
Woz says:
I wish everybody would just agree to exchange all the patents and everybody can build the best forms they want to use everybody’s technologies
Then what why would we need patents, except for preventing newcomers to enter the market? Again, this is something that hinder innovation. Once you realize patent prevent innovation in a given field, why not stand against them
"... - very small things I don’t really call that innovative"
Maybe you don't think these things are innovative but I'm sure the engineers in your employ that work tirelessly to invent these things would strongly disagree. Patents are a vital part of our economy and, indeed, there are large companies who specialize in creating and protecting such inventions, a business that simply couldn't exist without our patent laws.
There are bound to be cases of people filing for patents which aren't really up to the standards intended by the original creators of the law but the patent office has strict guidelines which ensure that the majority of patents granted are of high quality and reflect the significant resources that a company has invested in inventing something new for the benefit of mankind, such as:
1) One-click purchasing.
2) Rounded rectangles.
3) Color text in e-mails. (IBM FTW)
Please think again on the topic of patents. You do yourself and your company a disservice with your careless statements.
SEAL Team 6 en route.
Makes you think what he would have thought if back in the day a Korean company released a near-copy of Apple II in a nearly identical case and with nearly identical UI.
A true man of reason that I hope both these companies listen to.
He is about as down to earth and realistic of a man in person as any average tech savvy geek and even though many of us dislike Apple, this man should have all our respect.
It doesn't matter. The Jury's ruling will be found invalid for misconduct.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Once upon a time there was a man, James Beard, who was so good at making bread that many said even God could not make better bread than he. After a time God became interested in a competition with him, and so it went.
They gathered their ingredients, but before the contest started God said: "unh, unh, uh. Prior art." pointing at James' stack of flour, yeast, water and egg.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
I could hug Woz. He's everything Jobs was not, and everything the face of Apple is not. Everything the SYSTEM is not. People like Woz are the reason for what little faith I have in humanity.
Woz is a geek! Like most of the rest of us, he's borderline fanatical about openness and how it promotes technology better than locking things down with patents.
a divided up monopoly is called a polopoly .
We're not naive, you know. But has it occurred to you that those businesses, *any* organisation. *any* society, can only function because a significant number of people are cooperative? If people were only competitive we would be solitary creatures who'd only get together to reproduce. But we're social creatures, we do things together, cooperation is part of human nature as much as competition is. The competitive people fight the wars you mention, cooperative people actually get things done within those wars. And many of them would rather get things done without wasting energy on the war. It sounds like Steve Wozniak is one of them.
If you LOOK at what is "patented" here, it's ALL OBVIOUS to ANYONE.
Touch computing has been in our culture since BEFORE IT EXISTED. We have ALL seen the computers in "Star Trek" and "Minority Report". We know ALL about making gestures to talk to a computer. We have ALL seen portable computers with rounded corners, BEFORE ANY OF THESE PATENTS WERE EVEN IMAGINED.
You HAVE to LOOK these things and say "is this the obvious way to do this?" You HAVE to do it IN OUR CURRENT CULTURE where we have ALL been exposed to these ideas FOR YEARS. If the answer is YES then THERE IS NO BASIS FOR A PATENT.
The only thing that's NOVEL here is the CONCEPT that you can IGNORE the PRIOR ART.
Samsung wanted to submit evidence they had ripped off Sony instead who had done the shape before. For that matter, the XDA (MS Phone years ago) seemed to me to be the grand daddy device that looked very much the same.
Oh well, doubt the appeal court will have such an obviously Apple fangirl for a judge. So Apple will loose and all will be well again. But it would be nice if the asian tech giants told apple for its next device. Nope, sorry, we don't have any items in stock at the moment. Go shop somewhere else. Oh there isn't? Well, go complain to the US tech companies that outsources all tech then.
Would be nice. Won't happen but it would be nice.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Rumor has it this is a personal vendetta by the late Steve Jobs. He totally hated Eric Schmidt for competing with his iPhone thingy. He allegedly said âoeI will spend my last dying breath if I need to, and I will spend every penny of Appleâ(TM)s $40 billion in the bank, to right this wrong. Iâ(TM)m going to destroy Android, because itâ(TM)s a stolen product. Iâ(TM)m willing to go thermonuclear war on this.
That's what Apple is nowadays, nothing more than a vehicle for Jobs' post-mortem hatred. And without Jobs around it probably cannot be stopped; he cannot withdraw the order to attack anymore. He kept his promise and spent his last dying breath in an attempt to destroy Android and made sure his battle would continue long after his death.
0x or or snor perron?!
Funny. A couple days ago I was telling my BF I like /. better because there seem to be fewer fanboys than on Reddit. Can we not turn /. into Reddit, please?
Steve Wozniak has a good enough reputation to really make people in power change their opinions about this whole mess. He needs to become more aggressive and vocal about it. "I'm Wozniak, co inventor of the Mac, I know what innovation is, and patents hurt it. Just stop. Thanks."
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
no wonder the Woz is not with apple anymore, way to open minded.
Isn't this the company who had to fly in the Englishman they stole the iPod design from to curtail an infringement verdict from Sony a few years ago?
Tried searching but even -samsung netted too much flotsam to find a reference. Anyone?
Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
I LOVE YOU WOZ!!!!!
They are more like trademarks--they are for thinks like patenting the shape of the Coca-Cola bottle; they are specifically aesthetic.
But then, you already knew that.
Awesome, I'm going to go write some code for my Wii now.
Apple doesn't make hardly any money at all off of advertising; they make the vast overwhelming majority of their money by selling actual hardware products that people want to buy. In no way are you "the product" when you buy from Apple--that's just idiotic.
I swear to God if someone posted that "at least Google doesn't make coats out of puppies like Apple does" it would get modded up to +5 Insightful.
His point is that there should be no intellectual property or money and that everyone should just pay for new technology with rainbows and hugs.
The patent problem is a very difficult one, specifically because getting rid of patents isn't a viable option--that would destroy any incentive for companies to invest in R&D.
Its hard to understand this being in the tech world. Tech world is about ideas and ideologies, but fails to see the real world for what it is (until it bites you in the a$$), which is all about property rights. I was (and still am) a die hard geek, but out of curiosity I wanted to learn about real estate after we bought our house. I thought there are so many inefficiencies that this will be something I can look to find better ways of doing that. I really wanted to do that before we bought the house, but didn't work out that way. I think every one should learn about about how real estate works before buying a house. Its an eye opener. Every war ever fought, every treaty that has been signed, and even the Habendum clause ("to have and to hold") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habendum_clause in the marriage wows comes down to property rights. Yes, a wife was considered property, and property rights were granted along with such property! As far patents are concerned, like everything else with property rights, its all about YOUR cow crossed into my yard and ate MY grass. Now I want to be compensated.
I know that I am currently experiencing my seventh living reincarnation. I also recall a few centuries back scribbling some things down on a piece of paper; one figure looked like "1", and another figure looked like "0". There was no Patent Office back then, so I just let it slide. In retrospect, I believe those figures have become critical to ALL things digital, and most things analogue. Who do I see about suing the shit out of everyone.....
So the entire world does not agree with you...
Artix
Your Linux, your init.
We can have software patents and have them be reasonable with one simple little rule.
Look at the CODE. We have design patents for a reason. If the code is significantly different (e.g. written in ASM vs C or Java) it is a unique implementation. If it's written in the same language, see how much it differs to achieve the same effect. A given language may only have one way to do things, so that part can't be given as part of the patent. Just like one can patent different designs of things like LED lights (even if they use the same components and number of each component, positioning for effect/etc is patentable as a design patent) and other items.
the courts are totally forgetting about design patents here. They could be ruling in a way that works both ways, and it is within their power; they are just too stupid to realize this and do so for the benefit of the country and competition.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Apple probably thinks of Steve Wozniak as their Ron Paul.
"Good artists copy, great artists steal" Pablo Picasso ...
They are tools for the rich to keep new players from entering the field, and ones that are brave enough to do it anyway are easily crushed. Those sorts of patents are not tools FOR the people. They are tools AGAINST the people and in favor of the tyrannical wealthy elite whose corporations run our government.
The patent system is broken and has already collapsed upon itself. Time to simply burn it or pretend it no longer exists. I find it humorous to think I can be sued for auto-updating in my apps.
They are not tools to give folks a few year edge anymore to bring stuff to market. They are tools to wage war, crush competitors, suck them dry of money and attempt to destroy their employees' livelihoods (at least the enlisted scum that don't own shares).
...but you don't seem to understand the difference between design patents and utility patents.
You also don't seem to understand the point of utility patents. Here's a hint--there would be almost no new technology without them. Does that sound like fun to you?
"Good artists copy, great artists steal" - Steve Jobs 1994
This quote should be in the opening remarks in any like litigation
involving Apple.
It goes to the core values and executive charter that management
gave to the development team. Further it sets the value stage
where one way or another Apple is willing to steal.
I think that Samsung stepped in it because of language based cultural
differences. i.e. many Asian languages are iconic in nature.
This is important because in many languages yama is always
drawn the same way and has the same meaning. I clearly
do not want to make a mountain out of a mole-hill here but
the iconic language bias and the iconic interface is clearly
an important topic for discussion and litigation.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
The glass industry has a phrase I had never heard
of. It is: Dubbed Corners or corner dubbing or radius corners.
Yep rounded corners.....
In so many ways.
And Samsung did EXACTLY WHAT YOU DESCRIBED.
Wrong, Samsung instead did literal copies of many iPhone elements.
You want to see how to copy while making it unique? Look at every other Android handset maker.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley