Leak Hints Windows 8 Tablets May Be Dearer Than Makes Sense

MrSeb writes "If, like me, you thought Microsoft would price Windows RT competitively, you were wrong: A leaked slide from Asus says that its Vivo Tab RT, due to be released alongside Windows RT at the end of October, will start at $600. Unbelievably, this is $100 more than the iPad 3, and a full $200 more than the iPad 2 or Galaxy Tab 2 10.1. For $600, you would expect some sensational hardware specs — but alas, that's sadly not the case. The Vivo Tab RT has a low-res 10.1-inch 1366×768 IPS display, quad-core Tegra 3 SoC, 2GB of RAM, NFC, 8-megapixel camera and that's about it. Like its Androidesque cousin, the Transformer, the Vivo Tab RT can be plugged into a keyboard/battery dock — but it'll cost you another $200 for the pleasure. (Curiously, the Transformer's docking station only costs $150 — go figure.)"

Comments

Windows RT + Office

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows RT will come in Office 2013 Preview which would also be up-gradable to the final version when it launches.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Joce640k]

"Dearer"? You mean more expensive?

Re:Windows RT + Office

[AwesomeMcgee]

Yeah.. dearer? What?

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Anonymous Coward]

British English! Dearer = more expensive.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Joce640k]

Maybe it meant that in the 1950s...

I think MrSeb is showing his age as well as his location.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Windows RT will come in Office 2013 Preview which would also be up-gradable to the final version when it launches.

Inconveniently, though, Office 2013 matters somewhat less to home users and Windows RT(since it can't be bound to a domain or controlled by standard group policy for any price) is of somewhat less interest to business users...

I'm not saying that they won't sell any; but by gimping AD in favor of some goofy 'Yeah, sure, go ahead and pretend its a smartphone or something, I hate you.' management 'app', they've substantially spoiled the appeal for the IT-heavy we-cannot-use-any-software-not-feature-identical-to-Office-and-ideally-compatible-with-IE6-so-we-can-still-get-to-our-cutting-edge-'intranet portal' segment, and at $600 for mediocre specs(2 GB of RAM is high by tablet standards; but cheap shit by Windows-machine standards) they'll need a pretty compelling argument that I need 100% Office, rather than the Office-compatibleish offerings on iDevices or Android things, since the same $600 will get me a shiny new 32GB iPad or a Transformer prime infinity from Asus' android side...

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Aeros]

Ah those funky English people. They speak English funny

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Gilmoure]

'dearer' = 'more expensive' in real Engrish as well.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[0123456]

I'm totally looking forward to creating Excel spreadsheets on a touch screen.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Exitar]

In Italian, both "expensive" and "dear" are translated with the same word, "caro".
So, "more expensive" -> "piu' caro" -> "dearer".

I had no idea that /. titles were written by Italians anyway.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Joce640k]

Did you look at the pretty picture in the article?

Re:Windows RT + Office

[0123456]

Did you look at the pretty picture in the article?

Yes. Was there a point to your comment?

Hint: if you mean the docking keyboard, who's going to pay yet another $200 on top of the enormous tablet cost in order to turn it into a crappy laptop?

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Anonymous Coward]

I find the whole thing 'gay'. Of course words never change in meaning or drop out of usage.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Belial6]

While I would define it more as 'valuable', or 'having a high value', it certainly means that in modern American English. It isn't that the word has changed meaning. It is that people mimic words that others have said without understanding the meaning. (Another good example is the word "Sorry".) When you start a letter "Dear Nancy", a wedding starts with "Dearly Beloved", or you just call your wife "Dear", the word means person "of great value".

As soon as I saw the word Dear in the title, I knew that people would come out of the woodwork complaining about it because they didn't know the definition of a word they have used most of their lives. The real question is... What do THEY think the word "Dear" means?

Re:Windows RT + Office

[blind biker]

"Dearer"? You mean more expensive?

In NZ and Oz, "dear" is more commonly used than "expensive".

Re:Windows RT + Office

[cayenne8]

'dearer' = 'more expensive' in real Engrish as well.

Not in the US, I've never heard it used to mean more expensive before...

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Mitchell314]

Dear usually implies great *qualitative* value, or value that is hard to put a lower bound on. Hence why your strawmen are confused by its usage in this case.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Anonymous Coward]

You'll pay dearly for that comment. Okay, not a real threat, but you understand what the word means here. What's wrong with the title?

Re:Windows RT + Office

[superzerg]

I guess it is a poor traduction from french where dear and expensive are the same world : "cher"

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Paul Rose]

Webster (a US dictionary) shows the 4th definition of the adjective dear:

high or exorbitant in price : expensive "eggs are very dear just now"

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Not in the US, I've never heard it used to mean more expensive before...

So what? I guess you presume to be an expert on American English?

I have heard it in the US before to mean more expensive. It is a common secondary meaning, even if little used.

I don't really understand your point. It appears you are only bragging about your ignorance and trying to claim it as true.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Missing.Matter]

and at $600 for mediocre specs(2 GB of RAM is high by tablet standards; but cheap shit by Windows-machine standards)

Windows RT should be judged by tablet standards, as it is optimized for such hardware. 2GB of RAM on Windows RT should be plenty enough.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[hairyfeet]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha...You think MS OFFICE, on a CONSUMER device, will get those consumers to pay MORE than a status having iPad, with shitty specs to boot? Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

I am doing the dance of eternal happiness right now, as I actually thought for once in his miserable excuse of a career Steve Ballmer was gonna actually pull something off and force metrosexual on the world by selling this great pad below cost, thus actually giving MSFT an actual competitor to iPad and saving his ass...Bwa ha ha ha ha...damn I was fooling myself, Steve Ballmer can't do anything that smart!

Thus instead we have yet another chapter in the case that is "Steve Ballmer: I think my shit doesn't stink and have no understanding of the market so watch me foul it all up" saga. this is actually a great relief for me, as i figured one more Vista style megaflop might actually get MSFT's version of the Apple Pepsi guy the boot, but winRT with Ballmer shitting another billion down the toilet by trying the razor and blades model might have actually showed him to the board not to be incompetent....whew! Steve's massive ego pulled defeat from the jaws of victory yet again!

For those that would like some GREAT NEWS it is twofold: 1.-Steve Ballmer is gonna have another mega disaster by pricing himself right out of the market and may finally be FIRED like he should have been half a damned decade ago and more importantly 2.-Remember how you couldn't get one of those firesale Touchpads? Well thanks to Steve's massive ego and delusions of competence you'll be able to pick these up on Woot! in 6 months for $99 or less. Sure you can't put Android on it, but $99 for a quad tablet will be nice.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[jedidiah]

...because copying is not stealing. The concept of theft implies deprivation and really doesn't make any sense for something with no actual physical existence.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[DuckDodgers]

Windows RT on ARM devices will only run their new applications of the type-formerly-known-as-Metro. It also won't support traditional browser plugins, though I understand IE on it will run a builtin Flash plugin for a few curated websites. The formerly-known-as-Metro applications are designed to be tablet and smartphone friendly. So the 2GB of RAM is probably plenty.

But that price is nuts. No thanks.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[west]

Which is why the phrase "he stole my idea" and "he stole my sale" don't exist in the English language. Oh wait...

Now, if you think about it, I *am* wrong. In each case, there *was* deprivation.

And if you think *really* think about it, you'll understand there's deprivation in the case of piracy - the deprivation of the right to commercially exploit one's work.

Such a right may not be worth a huge amount for each customer, but a theft of pennies adds up when thousands or millions are engaged in the practice.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[todrules]

Now, if you think about it, I *am* wrong.

Oh, dear.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[todrules]

Now when I call my girlfriend, "Dear," I know in my head which definition I really mean.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[UnknownSoldier]

Because most /.'ers are smart enough to know that Copying a number (which ALL software, digital music, digital video, etc. are) is not the same as Stealing it; you seem to be unable to tell the difference.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

It's a typo -- the Microsoft one's price is more "deerer", as in you caught in the headlights.

Also, they left out that MS will still be hemorrhaging cash even at these prices. It's the X-Box all over again, where market share must be purchased at all costs.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[samion.blanc]

Webster (a US dictionary) shows the 4th definition of the adjective dear: high or exorbitant in price : expensive "eggs are very dear just now"

Oh dear! eggs are very dear right now dear.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[wooferhound]

The most common slang that I have heard is proud.
"Those guys are really Proud of that 42 inch TV."

Re:Windows RT + Office

[mjwx]

Webster (a US dictionary) shows the 4th definition of the adjective dear:

high or exorbitant in price : expensive "eggs are very dear just now"

Yes, but it just sounds better when it is said in an English accent.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[mjwx]

"Dearer"? You mean more expensive?

In NZ and Oz, "dear" is more commonly used than "expensive".

For example,

I don't mind venison, my only problem with venison is that it's a bit deer.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[njahnke]

learn something new every day!

Re:Windows RT + Office

[hairyfeet]

Oh please! What is the ONLY other mass product you see people standing in line and paying above retail to get their hands on yearly? Why that would be...drumroll for effect...Air Jordans.

Look I have NO problem against fashion I've been known to indulge in fashionable purchases from time to time myself. If the product makes you happy? Who cares if it is fashion!

But at least have the BALLS to admit that its all fashion and personal preference, instead of jumping through insane logic hoops trying to "prove" that Apple's 45%+ markup on products makes them a "good value" because its bullshit.

I personally like Pepsi, ford trucks, Asus notebooks, Samsung hard drives and Asrock motherboards. Do you see me coming up with logic hoops to "prove" they are "better" and the other products "worse" because of my choice? Nope its a personal preference.

Personally I think the reason Appleites can't give up the logic hoops is there is a doubt there. there is a little niggling doubt sitting on their shoulder whispering "Its not worth this much" and rather than just accept that you don't care you have to make logic hoops to jump through to justify that purchase. Want to see a comic that NAILS the iPad mindset? Here you go, enjoy. Funny that even the cartoonist knows its fashion but you still don't.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[ByOhTek]

Yes. Dear and expensive seem to be synonymous in many language, including (non-American) English

Although the article seems a bit skewed, and makes it (the Windows tablet) out to be worse than it is...

Perhaps, but this is a really skewed article.

50% more than the galaxy 2 10.1"
- Similar resolution screen (1366x768 vs. 1280x800) or iPad2 (1024x768). Still creamed by the iPad 3 (2048x1536)
- Processor that is almost ~45%-80% more powerful than the Galaxy 2
- 3D performance is over 2x the Galaxy 2 with the except one benchmark, which is only 90% better.
- Twice as much memory as any of the other 3 (all 1GB)
- Cant compare storage

most info from ipad/samsuck take from here. I'm assuming the Tegra3 used has a similarly clocked CPU to the Transformer in the review. The Tegra 3 used in the TF300T (in the review) is the slowest Tegra 3 chip of any of this line (1.2Ghz), I think I've seen as slow as 1.0Ghz, but I've definitely seen 1.3Ghz and 1.6Ghz.

Note, again, this assumes the T3 used is similar to that of the Transformer TF300T, which could actually vary, but is still likely to beat the Galaxy 2. The TFS is calling this 'not great', and giving primary comparisons that are not better (except, possibly, the iPad3, I wasn't able to find any good performance metrics on that). The only competitive product mentioned (the Transformer) seemed almost as an afterthought with mention of the dock. These range from $380 to $580 on newegg (new, not refurb or open box).

From a pure hardware perspective, is it worth more than a Galaxy 2? Yes. $200 more? By the benchmarks, a bottom of the line Transformer easily is worth 50% more, so, depending on the Tegra3 setup used, it is possible (and probable). Will it be worth more than the Transformer? Probably not, unless the OS is really well done.

I found some reviews of the iPad3 vs the Transformer (top of the line model, so we'll say "best possible case" for the Windows tablet), they seem to suggest that the two are comparible by performance...

So, roughly speaking:
Screen: Galaxy II ~= MS Tranformer (1080P IIRC) iPad3
Speed: Galaxy II Transformer (low end) = MS = Trasformer (high end) iPad3
Price: Galaxy II (bast in this case) Transformer (low end) iPad3 Transformer (high end) MS (worst in this case)

Overall... I'd take anything on the list over that Galaxy II. In part due to the fact that every Samsung Android device I've had has been a buggy crashzilla (worse than the non-samsung androids, worse than iOS, worse than an HTC WP7), and it just doesn't have the price-performance benefit.

The iPad 3 probably has the best/price performance ratio on the chart, if you can stand iOS.
If like me, you can't, go with the Transformer, with the Windows tab in second place.
If you don't hate iOS, then you probably want the iPad3 more than the Transformer, more than the Windows tab...

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Dalar_ca]

Not necessarily. Was common in Canada in the 40s/50s too, granted my father was older than most fathers of people around my age (early 30s now) but "dear" was a word he used very frequently when referring to things that are too highly priced.

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Sigg3.net]

Dear means expensive. Dear-bought means bought at steep price. Also in "a victory bought at great cost".

I am Norwegian, and AFAIK our "dyr" is the forerunner for dear. The pronunciation is still pretty close.

When you say "Dear Mary" you exactly point out how valuable she is to you.

Of great value, in context of purchasing in a transaction, would be expensive.

Expensive sounds Latin. What does it mean?

Re:Windows RT + Office

[Phoghat]

>>Not in the US, I've never heard it used to mean more expensive before..

Maybe he's never read a book printed in English either

Leaked?

[Wovel]

Wasn't this an announcement from the manufacturer?

Re:Leaked?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Can't wait?"
"For your Win8?"
"Get ready then."
"To meet your.. destiny"

Burma fuckin' shave!

Margins

[pubwvj]

Perhaps Microsoft has decided they need to make money instead of doing loss leaders.

Re:Margins

[roc97007]

Perhaps Microsoft has decided they need to make money instead of doing loss leaders.

To make money, you have to sell product.

Re:Margins

[morcego]

Microsoft have been selling expensive products for years now. They were never a price oriented company.

Re:Margins

[Anonymous Coward]

I would assume a price sheet from ASUS would contain prices decided on by ASUS. Why are people blaming MS when it's the vendor's choice to go with these price points?

Re:Margins

[roc97007]

Ok, I'll give you that. But now they're competing in a commodity market. Microsoft doesn't really understand competitive, commodity markets.

Re:Margins

[Joce640k]

Perhaps Microsoft has decided they need to make money instead of doing loss leaders.

Have you seen the price of a full retail copy of Windows? It's almost as much an iPad...

Re:Margins

[Tridus]

Because Microsoft is charging Asus a lot of money for Windows RT, and that's why the tablet is so expensive? Should Asus maybe sell these things at a loss so that Microsoft can compete against Android?

Re:Margins

[morcego]

They will be pushing Microsoft Office and other "solutions" as a reason to buy their more expensive tablets, as well as integration with Exchange and whatever other crappy product they can think of.

We all seen it before. How many people continue using IIS ?

Re:Margins

[king neckbeard]

How can it be a loss leader, though? It's software, and ASUS probably does the actual copying of images onto those machines. The cost to MS is limited to the paltry sum they pay for codec patent licenses and such.

Re:Margins

[Captain Hook]

Microsoft have been selling expensive products for years now. They were never a price oriented company.

MS never had to be price oriented, they held a monopoly on consumer and enterprise desktops, and had a pretty good market share of servers. To the point where competitors effectively had to be free to compete, not because of technical superiority but because of how the market was stacked against them.

The trouble for MS is it doesn't have that lead in the mobile space. Its now forced, whether it acknowledges it or not to compete on:

• Cost
• UI
• Technical Merit

Cost and UI matter to regular consumers, Cost and Technical Merit (maybe including a bit of UI as it relates to funcationality rather than prettiness/bragging rights) matter to techies.

MS's problem is the first group aren't going to be impressed with Notro compared to Apple or Android, especially if the devices are going to cost significantly more. The second group remember enough about MS's business practices from the 90's and 00's as to be warey of accepting them.

There is another possibility, maybe it's not the MS license knocking up the price, ASUS might not be expecting big sales from these devices and so are hoping to cover R&D costs with a smaller number of sales by bumping up the unit price?

Re:Margins

[Anonymous Coward]

IIS is about 13% of the web server market.

Re:Margins

[Nethemas the Great]

This may simply be evidence that the Win 8 tablet platform is intended for the business audience.

Re:Margins

[Nethemas the Great]

You have to recoup R & D, maintenance, sales and marketing, etc.

Re:Margins

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I would assume a price sheet from ASUS would contain prices decided on by ASUS. Why are people blaming MS when it's the vendor's choice to go with these price points?

Probably because Microsoft is the sole provider of one of the more expensive items on the BoM, and the one over which there was the greatest price uncertainty and the greatest room for a decision between lower prices or higher margins. A few of the hardware bits are probably more expensive in absolute terms(a good IPS panel with a capacitive sensor isn't cheap, not that 1366x768 is 'good'); but the component vendors have comparatively little margin and less room to move on pricing.

Re:Margins

[king neckbeard]

Yes, but whether or not that leads to a per-unit loss is a function of the number of sales times the profit per sale. It can't be a true loss leader because it's not a loss at a high enough volume, and it doesn't really lead to sales of another product that is more profitable for MS.

Re:Margins

[mcgrew]

I don't know, I paid $40 for DOS 6 when games were $50, I'd say that's cheap, especially since it came with DoubleSpace. Most people aren't Microsoft's customers, they're Asus and Dell and HP customers. I doubt that more than $10 went to MS when you bought a computer. Enterprise customers are their customers, not you. Now, Office seems expensive unless you put it next to Photoshop are worse, SAS.

You're confusing them with Apple. Apple computers are way more expensive than Windows computers, but Apples are percieved to be higher quality. I just don't see how MS can sell a tablet at a higher price than an iPad and expect anyone to buy them. Folks buy Apple to be kewl and show off how much money they have, you can't say that about MS.

Look how the Zune flopped, and it wasn't as expensive as an iPod. There's no way anyone is going to be willing to pay more for a Windows computer than an Apple computer.

Meanwhile, when I get a tablet it will be a cheap Android. Apples cost too much and Windows has too few features compared to kubuntu.

Re:Margins

[UnknowingFool]

How so if even MS says Win 8 is a consumer OS?

Re:Margins

[leandrod]

They were never a price oriented company.

This is not true at all. Nearly all markets Microsoft entered they underpriced, usually a lot. Operating systems, server
software, office suites, you name it — MS products were always cheaper than the then incumbent. What MS always
did was to establish a proprietary lock-in by embracing, extending and extinguishing existing standards, so that they
could avoid lowering prices — software having fat margins, former incumbents would underprice MS once they lost in the
market, so avoiding a price war was of essence.

As far as I know this is the first time Microsoft enters a new market — actually, reenters a redefined market, as they failed to
develop the market for tablets with their MS Windows for Pen Computing OS version and are now playing in a renewed by Apple
and Google market — overpricing it. Netbook history, where Asus created the market with GNU/Linux and forced MS to lower the
price on MS Windows XP, seems to indicate where will MS Windows RT prices will go after a few months. Downhill.

Re:Margins

[gstoddart]

They will be pushing Microsoft Office and other "solutions" as a reason to buy their more expensive tablets, as well as integration with Exchange and whatever other crappy product they can think of.

I don't disagree as that seems to be how Microsoft has marketed their products over the last bunch of years ... I'm just not sure they fully get that people are looking for devices which do things other than Office documents and Exchange.

I think RIM is demonstrating quite nicely that what consumers want is stuff that isn't what businesses want. And the consumer market is actually quite a bit bigger than the corporate one.

Unfortunately, Microsoft often still sees the world as about being able to access Office and Exchange. And I'm betting far more people don't need that than do in this market -- for me personally, I have no use for that, but I've no doubt that for some people the ability to get their company email or access the TPS report from home is absolutely critical.

I think when Microsoft comes to terms with the fact that a shocking amount of people don't need Office and Exchange, they might figure out what features they should be putting into tablets.

Re:Margins

[93 Escort Wagon]

Having administered both .Net/IIS and PHP/Apache...

Since you refer to "PHP/Apache", I'm pretty sure when you say "administered" you mean "ran on my home server", not "was paid money to do this as part of my job".

That's fine for purposes of getting your hands wet; but your opinion on which one is "better" is going to be taken with a big grain of salt - you're not dealing with the same situations, or trying to solve the same problems, as I am.

Re:Margins

[Nethemas the Great]

A citation would be helpful for I've never seen, nor heard of such a comment. In fact actually the opposite. We're also talking directly about the tablet not necessarily the PC/Laptop form factors anyway and Win 8 is well suited for the mobile space. Getting Microsoft into a mobile form factor capable of doing not just the traditional ancillary office work but the "meat and potatoes" as well, especially with out need for purpose written mobile apps will answer the headaches of nearly every CTO/CIO when it comes to delivering "acceptable" mobile solutions to office staff.

Re:Margins

[X0563511]

PHP isn't tied to Apache, you know...

Re:Margins

[cayenne8]

Folks buy Apple to be kewl and show off how much money they have, you can't say that about MS.

Do you honestly believe that the majority of people that buy Apple products...do so as a status symbol?? I know that is the often quoted opinion on /. , but do people really believe that deep down?

I mean, I own a few apple products. I have an old iphone 3gs, and am likely to going to get the new iPhone 5. but I dunno what a status symbol that is. I mean, it spends most of the time in my pocket, and honestly, when you whip one out...well, it is no big deal as that so many other people out there have them...it is kind of a commodity phone. I'd dare say any smart phone these days is pretty much a commodity object, and seems most people out there have one.

As for a mac computer....well, I do have a macbook pro I bought myself last xmas...but that stays largely at home..I bought it for some stills and video production I wanted to do with my gift I gave myself this year...a Canon 5D3.

Sure, these are both $$$ things...but, I got them because they were perceived to me as being the best I could get for my money I could afford...for some things I wanted to do. Best tool for the job and all.

But really...I don't think that many people even notice if you pull out an Apple product....to most people I think...it is just another "phone", or "laptop" or "tablet".....I don't perceive any social stigma related to them by anyone that pulls them out these days. Does anyone else really see it that way?

I mean, I don't give anyone a sideways glance really if they pull out a computer, smartphone or tablet....today those are all just commodity type gear IMHO....

Re:Margins

[cbhacking]

Nor is .NET tied to IIS, or GNU to Linux for that matter. The other direction also applies. PHP/Apache seems like a reasonable enough way to express the poster's obvious meaning.

Now, whether you agree with the rest of the post or not is a completely different issue, but if you want to do that, go ahead.

Re:Margins

[X0563511]

Well, I don't actually get what he's saying, since he wanted to make some kind of snooty joke about it.

I fall on both the PHP and Apache sides of the fence though. Supreme distaste for .NET, and I wouldn't wish IIS on a child molesting animal abuser.

Re:Margins

[HapSlappy_2222]

Do you honestly believe that the majority of people that buy Apple products...do so as a status symbol?? I know that is the often quoted opinion on /. , but do people really believe that deep down?

Yes.

I'm not knocking the hardware or those that purchase it, but status is absolutely a part of the decision to go with Apple devices. It's much the same as having a nice car versus an old yet reliable Ford Pinto. People want features, reliability, and the "look". Apple offers all 3, and I know it was a factor in *my* purchase. I can be honest with myself, too.

Re:Margins

[semi-extrinsic]

(a good IPS panel with a capacitive sensor isn't cheap, not that 1366x768 is 'good')

This is what pisses me off these days: on a 10" device made for looking at kittens on the internet, a 1366x768 IPS screen is considered "bad". But on my 12" notebook, where I actually need a good display for e.g. Photoshop or Lightroom while on the go, a 1366x768 IPS screen would be an *upgrade*. The display situation on laptops is seriously FUBAR...

Re:Margins

[Truedat]

Perhaps Microsoft has decided they need to make money instead of doing loss leaders.

Hmm you could be on to something. Perhaps they could price them at $800 and, you know, make even more money.

Re:Margins

[cayenne8]

I'm not knocking the hardware or those that purchase it, but status is absolutely a part of the decision to go with Apple devices. It's much the same as having a nice car versus an old yet reliable Ford Pinto. People want features, reliability, and the "look". Apple offers all 3, and I know it was a factor in *my* purchase. I can be honest with myself, too.

Interesting...thanks for the honesty.

I like nice things....but I buy them purely for my pleasure or needs...I never think about that other people would think about them. I have lots of computers, a small part of them are apples....but I have linux and even a windows machine or two in there somewhere.

I've had nice cars in the past...C5 Corvette, a nice older black on black 911 Porsche turbo....but I bought those cars because I liked their performance, and they way they looked. But I never gave it much thought about them being any sort of 'status' symbol. Hell, I was driving around and a friend in the car with me (I think it was the vette) was saying "Dude...did you see how those chicks were checking you out in the car"...and I honestly was 100% oblivious to this.

Hell, I was too busy keeping my eye on the road and traffic around me...since I was likely speeding as I do most everywhere I drive....

I like nice things...but I've never given any thought to other people seeing anything I have and having any sort of envy or whatever....?

Re:Margins

[jedidiah]

> Do you honestly believe that the majority of people that buy Apple products...

The status aspect is one of the first things Fanboys bring up when confronted with the fact that Apple has minority market share.

Fanboys love to pretend that an overpriced bit of generic electronics is a surrogate for an actual BMW.

Re:Margins

[jedidiah]

> I like nice things....but I buy them purely for my pleasure or needs...

Yes. that's why you're bragging about it all right now.

You've just proven the original point.

Re:Margins

[cayenne8]

Yes. that's why you're bragging about it all right now.

You've just proven the original point.

Where is the bragging? It isn't like anyone here is gonna be impressed by things I've owned. No one is gonna see me carrying these things around in meatspace....wouldn't that be necessary to complete the bragging/showing off act as you seem to think it is? Who the fuck would I possibly be trying to impress here?

And, how could I give examples with my points...unless I listed some things I've had that others might consider 'nice'....but I don't really think about myself.

So, these days...merely listing a nice thing or two, is bragging?

Sheesh.....

Re:Margins

[roc97007]

I'd counter with, all major appliances these days are compatible with Exchange (it's pretty much a requirement these days) and manipulate Office documents just fine. So.... next argument please.

The next argument is usually "you want the exact same interface on all of your devices". Which in Microsoft world used to mean a "start" button on a phone, and when that didn't sell well, was changed to a phone interface on a PC. Which no other manufacturer has been.... um um um... searching for the word... inspired enough to do. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Re:Margins

[rsborg]

This may simply be evidence that the Win 8 tablet platform is intended for the business audience.

Perhaps. However, one would assume that a business audience would like a deeper Exchange and Active Directory integration, and apparently these devices do not offer that (at least from the beta).

I would be amazed if Microsoft could achieve an Apple-level of secrecy on such an important and desired feature... especially consider their business audience prefer to plan for purchases.

Re:Margins

[X0563511]

Go edit a "server" in the Web IIS module and tell me how that is acceptable.

Give me a damn configuration file (if there is one and I'm just not in the Tell Them Where Important Things Are club, please do let me know where they are!). Apache's good about that. No registry, no gigantic properties dialog - just some nice text files with "include" support.

Re:Margins

[kaatochacha]

you know, a lot of people buy things to impress others without realizing they're doing it.
In other words, they're not saying to themselves "oh, i want to impress other people", but subconsciously they're doing it.
I think this might happen a lot more than people realize or wish.
Of course, I could be completely mistaken...

Re:Margins

[exomondo]

Because Microsoft is charging Asus a lot of money for Windows RT

It's $85, and unlike Android they don't have costs associated with customizing the software (because they can't). Aside from the larger (but lower resolution) screen the hardware is much the same as the Nexus 7, so the license cost doesn't explain the disparity.

Re:Margins

[exomondo]

Do you really think anyone thinks anyone else is impressed by an iPhone? The kids working at McDonalds have iPhones, millions of people pre-ordered the thing, you're more likely to run into someone that has an iphone (4S i think is the most common in the world?) than any other smartphone out there, it's hardly something you expect anyone to be impressed with.

Re:Margins

[HapSlappy_2222]

It's not always about impressing other people. "Status" doesn't necessarily mean you're trying to fit in with the richies, or impress some fool. I don't have nice things because I want the neighbors to be jealous; I have nice things because I like having nice things. It's a "self-status", so to speak, and I think it factors into any major purchase we make. In other words, I buy sleek, shiny, fun things, and while I do like to show them off, I just like lookin at em sometimes, and I also like seeing my friends' toys too. It's still status, even if it's just for personal satisfaction or to see who has the neatest gadgets; without the intention of saying "look how better than you I am now!".

Otherwise, we'd all be living well under our means with the bare minimum we need, and our economy would pretty much shit the bed.

Hell, this even translates to something as simple as the food we eat; we could live just fine on protein shakes and a legume once in a while. But that's not the way our society works: we like nice food, fancy clothes, fast cars, shiny boats, well-kept lawns, etc. All those things are for status (self or acquaintance related) and overall satisfaction, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Anyway, the point is this: nobody *needs* an iPhone, but lots of people like an iPhone, and purchase based on their desire for a neat, sleek, fancy phone that does lots of cool things reliably. Other phones meet some of those needs, or all of them, but they don't have an Apple logo, and I'd say a TON of people allow that logo to tip the scales when making a decision.

Re:Margins

[HapSlappy_2222]

I don't think you were "bragging" in a bad sense of the word. But those things you listed had other, cheaper, non-Apple options, too. It's not just Apple, either, high end Droid phones get bandied about quite often, as well, as does anything that hits the advertising airwaves.

I do think that this factor goes into any moderate to large purchasing decision, and the wise man is aware of these tendencies, allowing him to properly evaluate what "status" (also read as "fancy" or "cool") is worth to him. It's just the nature of the human beast.

Re:Margins

[HapSlappy_2222]

When you get to this level of "status" you're not talking about being impressed; you're talking about a minimum qualification to be considered "cool". Young folks are never about "stuff makes me cool" they are about "not having stuff makes me uncool". Quite a difference.

When you get to be a young grownup, some demographics are actually cooler by what they DON'T have (TV, nice jeans, contact lenses, mustache-free fingers, etc). Yeah, I'm lookin right at you, hipsters.

When you approach middle-aged, you're not "successful" unless you have at least the ability to buy nice things, and most people will splurge once in a while to prove they CAN buy those nice things. It's less about impressing friends or keeping up with the Joneses (though it happens) and more about proving to yourself that you have "earned" nice things.

I don't think any of these are bad, so long as you don't make dumb financial decisions getting there. In fact, I've fit all three of these categories at some point in my life. We'll see what I do when I get old, other than forget I own half the things I'm buying now.

Re:Margins

[Redmancometh]

I bet this is going to sell really well because of the high price despite all logic. People (excluding the poor/very poor) are more attracted to high priced items than low-priced items. The sales are going to be through the roof.

Re:Margins

[mjwx]

• Cost
• UI
• Technical Merit

You misspelled "function".

Users don't give a crap about UI's, they've been happily using bad UI's for years because the software does what they want it to. A classic example is considered one of the best RTS's of all time, Total Annihilation which remains to this day, an incredibly fun game despite it's eye clawingly bad UI. Point of sale software, yet to see one with a good UI actually suceed where crappy UI's like Pronto are going ganbusters (Pronto's UI is from 1992 and that's modern, a lot of POS systems use text menus). People put up with crappy UI because getting the software to do what they want is more important. Users will buy a product with a bad UI that does what they want but they wont buy a product with a good UI that doesn't do what they want.

So if we replace UI with function, your post makes sense.

Re:Margins

[mjwx]

Folks buy Apple to be kewl and show off how much money they have, you can't say that about MS.

Do you honestly believe that the majority of people that buy Apple products...do so as a status symbol?? I know that is the often quoted opinion on /. , but do people really believe that deep down?

Yes, I beleive that.

A lot of Apple users buy Apple products because they think of them as status symbols.

Now do I believe that Iphones are status symbols. No, no I don't.

Iphones have become the Toyota Camry of the phone world. For those unfamiliar with the Camry, it's a very popular 4 door commuter sedan. It's not a performance car by any metric, lets be honest here, the Camry corners like a whale, accelerates like a slug and is generally not a fun drive. It's a true A to B car, but it's a car that Just Works(TM), it's mechanically reliable and parts are plentiful. They are so ubiquitous even people on the dole own one.

But yes, there are also people who drive Camrys who consider them to be luxury Automobiles. The rest of us know Camrys, even Camry Aurions are common as muck. The same is true for Iphones

Re:Margins

[X0563511]

Thanks! This is good to know. I'm not going to switch my favorite, but it will make managing an IIS install that much nicer.

Re:Margins

[teg]

You have to recoup R & D, maintenance, sales and marketing, etc.

True, but the marginal cost of software is low - in this case, close to zero as I'm sure support will be handled by the ISVs. And in that case, you want to maximize units sold times price per unit.

Of course, this market has an entrenched player with an upscale, premium reputation - something Microsoft doesn't have. So selling Windows tablets for more than iPads might be an uphill battle that isn't going to last very long.

Re:Margins

[fferreres]

My 3 years old prefers the iPad as well. He doesn't know about marketing. My wife never really cared about phones, the simplest Nokia was the best. I gave her an iPhone 4 and she said ...meh. Now she never leaves without it. People that want to save a buck where it makes no sense avoid Apple mobile products but end up paying more. Just the resell value of an Apple product makes it a better deal. You can use it for 3 years and get 40% back at the end. The iPhone 4 sells used for about $250 or more and is well beyond 2 years old. What's the resell value of the equivalent Andoid device?

Re:Margins

[mcgrew]

I dunno what a status symbol that is. I mean, it spends most of the time in my pocket, and honestly, when you whip one out...well, it is no big deal as that so many other people out there have them...it is kind of a commodity phone.

There was a thing on ABC News last night about theives stealing iPhones, one clip had a new BMW crashing through a store window and its occupants scooping up iPhones. Another clip had crooks snatching them from people using them. Hardly a "commodity phone".

Most smartphone owners I know use Androids. The ones I know who have iPhones drive BMWs and Escalades, and face it -- people who drive cars like that drive them only to impress other people with how much money they have.

But really...I don't think that many people even notice if you pull out an Apple product....to most people I think...it is just another "phone", or "laptop" or "tablet"

What I've seen is at Felbers. There's one family that goes there often, and every time Apple releases a new product, they're there the next day showing it off. (Most people at that bar try to impress with their fancy paint job on their Harleys. Oddly, the richest ones drive old vehicles and have dumb phones!)

Re:Margins

[HapSlappy_2222]

I would say that if your 3 year old prefers the iPad, he's probably getting that tendency from you, making it a moot point. Otherwise, I take no issue with what you said; it's all true. It also contributes to why the iPad is "nicer", "cooler"... or just plain "better".

Those are all good reasons to make a purchase, certainly. It doesn't take away the fact that if it was an ugly brick that smelled like burned plastic, nobody would buy it, and that is my point. There are devices out there that generally do what the iPad does for cheaper, but it's just plain a better looking device.

I don't know why people are arguing that "look" or, yes, "status" don't factor into the purchase, because it absolutely does. And there's not a thing wrong with that.

Re:Margins

[lsatenstein]

At some point, the free ride with open source will taper off in North America and Europe, and we will have to visit websites in India and other impoverished countries to download FOSS software. That is not to say that their software will be inferior, but the American Mindset is to monetize everything that is possible, irrespective of benefit to society.

Re:Margins

[flabordec]

Well, at this point, even with your phone in your pocket and your laptop at home we all know you bough Apple and you even made it a point to note that it was expensive so, yes, I would say that it is important for Apple customers to be seen as people who have money to spend on expensive electronics.

Re:Margins

[semi-extrinsic]

The point was mainly the IPS vs TN panel, which makes a world of difference as far as color reproduction is concerned. On the topic of resolution, I find it fascinating that 1920x1080 is the best there is on a 50" screen, but on a 12" screen 1366x768 is crap. It tells me that the majority of discussions on resolution is heavily koolaid-influenced.

Re:Margins

[Stuarticus]

Why else would they insist on buying the latest one as soon as it comes out? Not everyone is this obsessive/shallow, but it's a great market if you can get it.

Winning

[binarylarry]

I like this plan.

Bye Bye, Microsoft.

Re:Winning

[rasmusbr]

Don't start bolting your chairs to the floor just yet. It's probably just an early tantalizer that they release while they work out the kinks. I would be surprised if you couldn't get a 7" Windows 8 tablet in Q4 2013. The real question is whether they'll be able to release a tablet that can compete with the iPad in the $500-$600 range.

Re:Winning

[Joce640k]

I would be surprised if you couldn't get a 7" Windows 8 tablet in Q4 2013.

By then it will be up against an iPad3 mini. It would have to be seriously cheap to win that battle.

Re:Winning

[Mister Whirly]

Bye Bye, Microsoft.

Now there is a prediction never made on Slashdot before. Why don't you go all the way out on the limb and declare next year to be "The Year Of Linux on Desktops"?

Re:Winning

[rasmusbr]

Yeah, they'll probably have to ship Windows for free on the low-end 7" tablets.

I wonder if Microsoft has failed to realize that in terms of profit the OS is essentially a front-end for the app store and plans to make money on both the OS and on app sales, analogous to a mall owner charging entrance.

Re:Winning

[binarylarry]

No, you have it all wrong.

Now it will be annoying Microsoft fanbois talking about how 2013 will be "The Year of The Windows Mobile Device."

Which we know will never happen, Apple and Android/Linux own that market.

Re:Winning

[0123456]

I wonder if Microsoft has failed to realize that in terms of profit the OS is essentially a front-end for the app store and plans to make money on both the OS and on app sales, analogous to a mall owner charging entrance.

They'd need apps in order to make money from app sales.

Re:Winning

[UnknowingFool]

It's more about style:

Costs more than iPad 2. No Retina display. Lame

Re:Winning

[mystikkman]

Microsoft fanboys? Anyone not rabidly hating Microsoft and loving has already left the site in the past few years in disgust over the posts and moderation here, haven't you noticed?

Every MS related story from the past few years has the same 100 people declaring MS'/(and recently Intel/AMD's) imminent deaths and gloating over Linux' and Android's ascendance in a circlejerking echo chamber, eventually those too will get bored and are leaving.

Re:Winning

[Belial6]

Too be fair to the "YODL" (Year Of Desktop Linux) crowd, as tablets gain more traction, capabilities, and more people become aware that it is trivial to add a keyboard to them, it isn't inconceivable that we will see a YODL in the not too distant future. It may just arrive via the distribution known as Android and it may be a very portable Desktop.

Of course there will be much quibbling over what exactly constitutes "Desktop".

Re:Winning

[narcc]

Which we know will never happen, Apple and Android/Linux own that market.

Yes, because the current market leaders in the mobile space will surely never fall like all previous leaders...

Re:Winning

[binarylarry]

You sound like you're only a few posts away from talking about how 2013 will be "The Year of The Windows Mobile Device."

Re:Winning

[Mister Whirly]

Netcraft just confirmed it.

Re:Winning

[tlhIngan]

I wonder if Microsoft has failed to realize that in terms of profit the OS is essentially a front-end for the app store and plans to make money on both the OS and on app sales, analogous to a mall owner charging entrance.

Except they're going to have to charge a lot more money then. Even though Apple gets around $1.2B out of iTunes (for all iTunes sales - apps, music, movies, books), a lot of that is plowed back into servers and into credit card transaction payments (developers are paid out before, but expensives from iTunes haven't been taken out of revenue).

Apple can do it because they offer content to sell hardware. Amazon does it to by offering hardware to sell content. Google does it to increase Android sales overall. Where Microsoft fits in, neither making hardware like Apple (so the App Store can't be used to generate sales), nor offering much in the way of content to drive Windows 8 adoption, is unknown.

Perhaps they can use the App Store to drive Windows license adoption? But at $600 for Windows RT, I'm not sure. The consumer would see the iPad as cheaper and go for that, or see the Androids as cheaper still.

Re:Winning

[marcosdumay]

They'll fail when somebody comes with something different, just like all previous leaders.

Are you really claimming that MS will be the next one to revolutionize this market?

Re:Winning

[rsborg]

Bye Bye, Microsoft.

Now there is a prediction never made on Slashdot before. Why don't you go all the way out on the limb and declare next year to be "The Year Of Linux on Desktops"?

No, but has been the "decade of unix (now predominantly linux) based mobile devices" so far. Microsoft has been losing on this front, since, well, forever, but the success of the iPhone and Android cemented that fate.

Re:Winning

[Grayhand]

Bye Bye, Microsoft.

Now there is a prediction never made on Slashdot before. Why don't you go all the way out on the limb and declare next year to be "The Year Of Linux on Desktops"?

I wouldn't laugh too loud. In the last 12 years Microsoft's stock has fallen off a cliff and has been left in the dust by Apple. I'm not making a point about Apple I'm saying Microsoft is looking vulnerable. They suck at hardware rollouts and still largely cling to Office and the Windows OS as their cash cows. Economically they'd probably be better off to halt development to save money and cut their losses. The problem is they are really exposed with only two real cash cows to their name. There are more and more options to Office so it's more the fact it's too expensive for most to switch than love of product keeping Office alive and now that Linux is no longer looking like a threat to Windows. Apple is their main competition but Apple won't bottom feed so cheap computers are almost exclusively Windows. They have a nitche but it's under threat again. The death of desktops is greatly exaggerated but everyone in the family needing their own desktop is no longer the case. Most teens web surf and play media on their computers which tablets are perfectly suited for. Microsoft could see sales drop by 75% for Windows and new businesses would be a fool to not to consider options other than Office so it may fall into a "your parents application" territory. I'd say Microsoft's prospects are bleak at best. Android has already filled the market place that a portable windows OS would have and like I said Microsoft has a miserable hardware track record. Rolling out a tablet that is more expensive than a cheap laptop is a dangerous move. To use most windows applications productively you need a keyboard. Well then why am I paying a $100 more than a cheap laptop and I don't get a keyboard? Data entry sucks on a tablet as does typing. If you want a media player there's superior tablets for less money and do a fine job for web surfing. They would need to do a daring move to make it viable like bundling it with a portable version of Office so every tablet comes with Office preinstalled with free upgrades. Unfortunately that would be shooting themselves in the foot since they have no other revenue streams than the tablet itself and a handful of applications. Apple could sell iPads at cost and clean up through the content they sell. Microsoft can't do that so they are severely limited with the profits on a tablet. The math doesn't work and as I said Microsoft's future looks bleak. The sad joke is if it wasn't for the antitrust laws Apple could buy Microsoft. They nearly have enough cash in their loose change drawer and any bank on the planet would finance the buy. Now that's a dramatic reversal of fortune.

Re:Winning

[Mister Whirly]

How hard would you have laughed at someone if 12 years ago they would have told you Apple would be a bigger corporation than Microsoft, and a leader in the mobile phone and music markets today?

Re:Winning

[narcc]

Why not? New products from RIM and MS are dramatically different from both iOS and Android, in good ways. Both products also have a fantastic suite of development tools that I've yet to see anyone criticize -- leagues above what's available for Android -- even RIM is gaining developers and apps at an alarming rate.

Let's also not downplay Microsoft's position in the enterprise. With a solid product, they can easily take over the business tablet market.

Re:Winning

[AshtangiMan]

12 years ago I was telling people that apple was the next big stock. I was a believer. 6 years ago I advised selling. Oh well.

Re:Winning

[tobiasly]

a circlejerking echo chamber

Sounds messy.

Re:Winning

[GoogleShill]

I hereby predict that 2013 will be the Year of the Android Desktop!!!

Re:Winning

[Rockoon]

I wouldn't laugh too loud. In the last 12 years Microsoft's stock has fallen off a cliff

MSFT $23.73 - Sep 20th, 2002.
MSFT $31.17 - Sep 18th, 2012.

I didn't read the rest of your post because you began with complete bullshit proving that you are completely willing to make up whatever the fuck you want while pretending to be a fucking authority.

I have this awesome idea.. what you don't know what you are talking about, simply don't open your fucking mouth pretending that you do. Its such a simple thing.. even easier than checking the historic price of MSFT .. and that was fucking VERY easy.

Re:Winning

[LordLucless]

The year of linux on the desktop has already come. I look around, and I see plenty of Android phones lying around on peoples' desks.

Re:Winning

[hovelander]

Damn, I just used my last mod point before I saw your bit of insight here. Mod this one up, peeps. Nail on the head right up above.

I'll be snapping one up on the inevitable fire sale of this first crop, though. For all the quips against Metro, it does look like a step froward away from the blizzard of icon alikes.

Jesus those screen specs will have to get better, however, even if Apple has a lock on all the good stock. The iPad 2 I think was crap as far as screen and camera. But even an Apple hater like me jumped on the iPad 3, as a huge fan of the Sir Ive. Revolutionary products can't be denied, no matter the bias.

Re:Winning

[PapayaSF]

It's mind-blowing to those of us who have been around for a while, but Apple now makes more revenue from iPhones than all of Microsoft put together. Probably more profit as well.

Re:Winning

[marcosdumay]

Heh, not 12 years ago, but some 8 years ago I was expecting MS to fail. Seems like I still am. Some day I'll be right.

12 years ago is just shortly before Jobs came back to Apple, isn't it? I didn't doubt they could get back (and expected them to do so after Jobs came back), but yeah, I wouldn't expect them to become the biggest IT company.

Re:Winning

[Blue23]

Bye Bye, Microsoft.

Now there is a prediction never made on Slashdot before. Why don't you go all the way out on the limb and declare next year to be "The Year Of Linux on Desktops"?

I think it would be more in keeping in line with the article to declare next year to be "The Year of Linux on Tablets".

What, they're already doing that. And it's got a big lead over microsoft?

Woo, good job.

Re:Winning

[ztifbob]

MSFT stock historic price data from Yahoo: Dec 29, 1999 / open 116.94 / high 118.37 / low 116.81 / close 117.94 / volume 17,449,200 / Adj Close* 45.10 * Close price adjusted for dividends and splits. That $45.10 number (the meaningful adjusted one) & the date Dec 29, 1999 say it's now almost 13 years later & the stock still need upwards of a 50% gain to put in a new all time high. Yeah for a blue chip stock (DOW 30) that's 'pert near, "fallin' off a cliff" in most stock analysts books, course i extended the original 12 year range by one year to get the MSFT peak price since it's IPO, (to better compare to Apple's new record stock price peaks that happen routinely of late) whereas as you shortened the range by 2 years, (from 12 to 10)...to swear at the guy i guess.

Re:Winning

[Rockoon]

course i extended the original 12 year range by one year to get the MSFT peak price since it's IPO

Yes, you extended it to right before the tech bubble burst, a bubble which climaxed on March 10th, 2000.

There was a good reason that I went back 10 years, not 12, or 13... because going back farther meant to be honest I would have to go back to before the tech bubble, to 1995, when MSFT was $4.00 per share.

Re:Winning

[Rockoon]

I hate MS myself, but truthfully, wasn't there a split in that time frame too?

These prices account for splits. The split you are talking about was 2 for 1 in February 2003.

There is no evidence here that Microsoft had strong growth in the 2000's. The growth it has is mainly just from the now slowly growing desktop and workstation industry as a whole, which is mostly mature and may be (some say) doomed to be replaced by tablets and phones.

I'm not saying that you should be buying MSFT, and I'm not saying that you should be selling MSFT. However, if Microsofts x86 Surface device (not to be confused with the ARM variant, or OEM WinRT offerings) flops then its probably time to get out and diversify in Android companies, because mobile IS where the growth is.

The perfect blend

[cynop]

So you get software no one likes in hardware no one would pay for. That sounds like a recipe for success.

Re:The perfect blend

[kelemvor4]

So you get software no one likes in hardware no one would pay for. That sounds like a recipe for success.

The hardware isn't THAT bad. It's just not particularly great. People would probably pay for the hardware if it had a more reasonable price point.. I'm thinking around $300. You can't fix windows RT without replacing it, though.

I'm not sure how MS expects to compete here. Every competitor in this field charges $0 for the OS. MS is selling ONLY an OS. I guess they expect hardware manufacturers to eat the cost? It would be a little intriguing if RT and Windows 8 were binary level compatible, but they're not - they just look similar.

Re:The perfect blend

[TheRaven64]

Every competitor in this field charges $0 for the OS

Well, kinda. Most Android manufacturers are already paying MS $15/device for a promise not to sue. Paying $15/device to actually get an OS might be worth it. And, sure, you can get the Android software after release for free, but to have access to the under-development versions you need to pay Google. You also need to pay Google if you want to ship their apps. Plus you need to pay your developers to get Android ported to your device, and to keep drivers up to date as kernel interfaces change if you want to allow users to upgrade. Customisation also costs money if you want to differentiate your product at all.

Re:The perfect blend

[westlake]

So you get software no one likes in hardware no one would pay for. That sounds like a recipe for success.

MS Office outsells any other retail software product you can name.

It is the tail that wags the dog. Currently holding 11 out of the top 25 slots at Amazon.com alone. Home and Student for the PC will typically rank 1 or 2 anywhere you look.

Re:The perfect blend

[interkin3tic]

No one likes office or no one likes windows 8?

I'm aware windows 8 is widely predicted to be a disaster on the desktop, but on the tablet I thought it was supposed to actually make sense.

Office, meanwhile... I hate office. Because I'm used to it now and can't get away. Fucking one note, keeping me tied to windows. There's nothing like it on linux, so I can't completely switch over.

I probably just need to detox and make a clean break. I'm never touching a windows tablet with office installed, that's for sure. Not even once.

Re:The perfect blend

[marcosdumay]

People would probably pay for the hardware if it had a more reasonable price point.. I'm thinking around $300.

Make it $200. A Galaxy Tab sells for $300.

Re:The perfect blend

[Microlith]

Plus you need to pay your developers to get Android ported to your device, and to keep drivers up to date as kernel interfaces change if you want to allow users to upgrade.

See, if Google had a sane kernel policy (i.e. they didn't try stuffing everything into the kernel) and device vendors pushed their drivers upstream, when the interfaces changed the drivers would have been updated by whoever was pushing the change.

Instead it's all being done badly and kernel updates are more difficult than they should be.

Re:The perfect blend

[jedidiah]

People buy office because they think they have to. Little trolls like you feed the fear. People don't buy it because they actually like it.

It's still "software no one likes".

Re:The perfect blend

[TemporalBeing]

I'm not sure how MS expects to compete here. Every competitor in this field charges $0 for the OS. MS is selling ONLY an OS. I guess they expect hardware manufacturers to eat the cost? It would be a little intriguing if RT and Windows 8 were binary level compatible, but they're not - they just look similar.

...except for Android, which requires you to be a member of the Open Handset Alliance in order to use Android in advertising and any Google-branded apps or GooglePlay app store. Oh, and Google just threatened to boot Acer out of the alliance if Acer continues plans on making a dual-boot device with Aliyun OS.

Google is threatening Acer that way for violating Acer's agreement with Open Handset Alliance.

Re:The perfect blend

[cynop]

From the reviews i've read (ars technica has one but i can't be bother to find the link, sorry), it seems that win 8 is a good touch based UI, but still lacking in lot's of areas, even in tablets. Especially the parts of the os that are not touch-optimised (like certain parts of Office unfortunately) can be a huge bother. Working with a touch screen, and a keyboard and a mouse is the only way to be always happy, but then again that doesn't seem like an improvement.

Re:The perfect blend

[gdy]

I like MS Office and bough it a few years ago. Probably it's you who isn't liked by anyone

Nothing wrong here

[Grishnakh]

If you really want to use Windows, you need to pay up for the privilege. I think it's too cheap; they should start these Windows tablets at $2000. I'm sure millions of people will be lining up to buy these things.

(Hopefully Steve is reading this.)

Re:Nothing wrong here

[roc97007]

(Mod up...)

Re:Nothing wrong here

[Alter_3d]

(Hopefully Steve is reading this.)

Nope, he is dead.

Oh, you meant the other Steve.

Nope, he is a zombie.

Re:Nothing wrong here

[Lucky75]

This isn't Apple

Re:Nothing wrong here

[Nethemas the Great]

If you really want to use Windows, you need to pay up for the privilege.

Even though you meant it in jest, there's actually something to that. There's something that Microsoft brings to the table that no one else can really say. They have an overwhelming majority presence in the business end-user arena. End-user business software runs on Microsoft, period. To be able to seamlessly untether them from the heavier form factors is a value that neither Apple nor Google can offer.

Right now if I want to deliver mobile solutions to the end-user I have to compromise with HTML5/JavaScript. This incurs penalties not only in functionality but also higher development costs. These costs come from the greater expense to develop (as opposed to native) as well as the need to produce redundant code bases. With the ability to simply target .NET I can reuse existing components from our PC based software. I don't need to bother with an HTML5/JavaScript stack because I no longer need to worry about WORA. I can just write-once run Microsoft without the restrictions imposed by using the lowest common denominator among the menagerie of platforms. End-users can enjoy being able to install our software on ALL of the form factors they desire with little concern for compatibility: PC, laptop, tablet, even smart phone.

Re:Nothing wrong here

[leromarinvit]

(Hopefully Steve is reading this.)

Why? Do you need a new chair?

Re:Nothing wrong here

[Belial6]

Businesses taking that route are shooting themselves in the foot. 99% of all end user business software that isn't Office is forms and workflow. Forms based software works excellent in HTML, and the workflow separates out to run on the server in a natural dividing line. The cost of doing your workflow on the server and the forms on the client is not going to be more expensive than trying to do everything in .NET on the client.

If not having to worry about compatibility is your goal, locking yourself down to a single vendors OS on a platform on which the vendor is notorious for breaking compatibility is a terrible way to attempt it. Particularly when there are cross vendor, standards based solutions that will still let you use your current developer resources on the server side of the applications.

Re:Nothing wrong here

[Nethemas the Great]

You do not understand the issues at hand.

HTML5/JavaScript is more expensive to develop for than .NET/WPF. In some cases I might even suggest an order of magnitude more expensive. Try to justify the expense when you don't have to.

The only thing MS is notorious for breaking compatibility with is IE. For example much of the software written for Window 2000 by and large still works just fine on Win 7, especially if the developers followed MS developer recommendations.

Business does not go out and spin new "meat and potatoes" software at the drop of a hat. This is especially true when it's to be built on top of new and largely unproven platform. Legacy software exists, and no one is going to replace it without a compelling reason. Incremental change is cheap to develop, cheap to train. Being able to run with minimal if any modification on a mobile device is an argument in the opposite direction.

Security wise, you would have a very challenging time convincing the decision makers that an HTML5/JavaScript based solution is anything close to as secure as an installed application. You would face a near impossible obstacle convincing them that you can do it for the same or less money.

Re:Nothing wrong here

[Farmer Tim]

No he isn't. Zombies go around looking for brains.

wait until it's officially announced..

[DaWhilly]

Otherwise, I might have an iPad Mini you might be interested in....

Dearer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who uses dearer in that context? Just say "may be more expensive" or "may be costlier." Much easier to understand.

Re:Dearer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Excuse me, but you're blocking my shopping trolley and I shan't be late to tea and crumpets with the Queen.

Re:Dearer?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll tell you who...

PLEASE DO THE NEEDFUL.

Posted anonymously, so I am not fired for being "racist".

Re:Dearer?

[Hatta]

This must be a tech support thing. I wonder if it's on their scripts. I work with a large number of Indian immigrants in academia and have never heard this phrase.

Re:Dearer?

[TheRaven64]

I just checked two US English dictionaries and they both listed that use. I don't think we can blame the original poster for your poor command of the language...

Re:Dearer?

[WeatherServo9]

I've heard this phrase a lot, but from one of our guys in Amsterdam. Never heard any of our India guys use it though.

Re:Dearer?

[Belial6]

The real question is... What do the people complaining about the word think the word means?

Re:Dearer?

[TheRaven64]

Yes, it says that I'm not American. I learned this usage as a very small child in England, but it may have only been present in English, not in the unofficial fork spoken on the other side of the pond.

Re:Dearer?

[Belial6]

The only problem with the headline is that the editor didn't realise that most people don't know what the words they use means. In essesnce the editor used a $5 word where a $2 dollar word would work. He likely assumed that because people use the word "dear" all of the time, that they would know what the word means, or at least know that it means SOMETHING.

The bigger question is... What do all of the people complaining about the word, who have used the word most of their lives, think it means?

Re:Dearer?

[mabhatter654]

Can you put that analogy in Words with Friends terms please.

Re:Dearer?

[slashrio]

Wrong use of the adverb 'dear'.
She/He must have meant: "... May Cost Dearer Than ...", as according to Webster(.com):
dear adverb
Definition of DEAR
1 : dearly 3 the effort cost them dear

Re:Dearer?

[mcgrew]

It's a literate thing. The AC you responded to obviously hasn't read very many books, if any at all.

Re:Dearer?

[slashrio]

And that's because your 'guys in Amsterdam' don't know how to speak English and erroneously translate the dutch word 'duur' into the english 'dear'.
Just because it sounds more familiar to them, not intentionally.

MS vs OEMs

[bkaul01]

Perhaps this approach by OEMs is why Microsoft felt the need to produce its own Surface line. It'll be interesting to see how the pricing compares once they announce it.

Pre-loaded Office 2013

[gtirloni]

I think that explains it.

Re:Pre-loaded Office 2013

[asmkm22]

Interestingly, the cheapest of the three models is the only one that comes with Office 2013 preloaded. The middle one has a trial, and the expensive one doesn't even mention that.

What is this? I don't even...

[sinij]

Well, hopefully, the premium comes from not having completely locked-down system. Oh wait, it runs Win8, never mind...

MS Still doesn't get it...

[HaeMaker]

The price difference is probably in the MS software license. IIRC, the OEM license cost for Windows CE in the late 90s was $50. I imagine Windows RT is around $100.

Compare that with Google who pays YOU to run Android.

Re:MS Still doesn't get it...

[wvmarle]

Google makes money indirectly out of Android, as it promotes their services (and sells their ads).

MS can't make money off WinRT other than by selling it to hardware makers.

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[HaeMaker]

Do see how the article compares this tablet to another tablet from the same manufacturer with the same specs but running Android instead of Windows RT? How else do you explain the price difference?

In some universe, this makes sense

[roc97007]

This all pencils out. Everyone wants Microsoft Windows on a tablet. They're already lining up for it. It's Windows -- the same interface, the same applications, compatibility with all the Microsoft back end processes, and all documents of any type made by Microsoft products will open on it. Regular security releases and bug fixes will keep it in great shape, and Internet Explorer is a joy to use. For all that, of course people will be willing to pay a premium price for the product. This isn't arrogance, it's due recognition of our own excellence. We've owned the desktop for decades; this obviously means we have a superior product.

Additionally, charging a higher price creates a mindset of a premium product. Charging a price competitive with those made-in-China boxes running not-Windows will make us seem as useless as them. People are willing to pay for excellence.

(Please mod this funny so I don't lose all faith in humanity...)

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[TheSwift]

We've owned the desktop for decades

Yes, but no one turns on a tablet and expects to see a windows desktop. Microsoft is too late in the game to keep their OS a major player in the new field of hardware.

The next generation will laugh at our cursors, "my computers" and "recycling bins". We have apple to thank for that.

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[roc97007]

We have lots of different sources to thank for that. We perhaps have Apple to thank for the marketing, although that has its upsides and downsides.

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[Sarten-X]

Sadly, I think you're perfectly right about some of that. Windows 8's UI is built for a tablet, so it can look and function the same everywhere (ideally). There are still sites that only work on IE, and they mostly show up in the corporate world, where IE still reigns supreme. Anything non-Microsoft is a loose cannon, that you can't just expect to connect with all the existing legacy software from the 90s.

All together, corporate managers will say that the extra cost for the Windows tablets (and Windows desktops, and Windows servers) is worth it, just so everything works smoothly (from their perspective), with no understanding of how much more hassle it makes for the IT folks.

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[Sarten-X]

Yes, but no one turns on a tablet and expects to see a windows desktop.

With Windows 8, users will turn on a desktop and see a Windows tablet! That's just as good!

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[fwarren]

Everyone wants Microsoft Windows on a tablet. They're already lining up for it. It's Windows -- the same interface, the same applications, compatibility with all the Microsoft back end processes, and all documents of any type made by Microsoft products will open on

That is Windows 8. It runs on tables that start at about $800. That is also without a keyboard. Lets add $100 to that for a keyboard. Let's even say that someone else beats this price. $750 and up to get Windows 8 on a tablet. A decent laptop goes for less than this. A netbook with a touchscreen would go for less than this.

If you are talkin WinRT, that is $200 cheaper and only runs Windows 8 Appstore apps (think "Super Gigantic Smart Phone").

People are willing to pay for excellence.

That leads them to an iPAD. Which also happens to be cheaper

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[roc97007]

> Sadly, I think you're perfectly right about some of that. Windows 8's UI is built for a tablet, so it can look and function the same everywhere (ideally).

....except, Microsoft has been trying since at least 2000 to create a viable touch interface, and has thus far failed spectacularly. So, now they've suddenly got it right?

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[roc97007]

> That is Windows 8. It runs on tables that start at about $800.

Or stated differently, "This is Windows. From Microsoft. It won't run worth a stale crap on affordable hardware. You should know better."

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[Farmer Tim]

Then they should release "Windows Live Xbox Office"...I'd buy that out of morbid curiosity.

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[Sarten-X]

I don't think they did get it right (I abandoned my Windows 8 trial after 15 minutes of pain), but it will be consistent. Once businesses are eventually forced to move to Windows 8 (or later), Microsoft will be able to market their tablets as not requiring any time to learn. Managers will love that.

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[sootman]

> Everyone wants Microsoft Windows on a tablet. They're already
> lining up for it. It's Windows -- the same interface, the same
> applications, compatibility with all the Microsoft back end processes...

Ooh, sorry, you thought Windows 8 on ARM could join a domain? Nope.

Re:In some universe, this makes sense

[Sarten-X]

A console XBox device with a simple interface that shows Office documents, manages smooth Live video conferencing, and is locked down enough that any extra applications can't be installed on it, regardless of the demands of even the most whiny manager. Instead, they could be installed into a sandboxed subsystem (and visible only upon request) in case a presenter wants to show off a Windows application.

I'd buy that out of desire to have a presentation system that "just works".

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[alphax45]

RT is what Microsoft is calling the ARM version of the OS. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT. Windows Runtime ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime ) is the Run Time. Confused yet? :)

Target market?

[ilsaloving]

I'm wondering about the target market. Compared to other tablets, the prices are ridiculous. But if this is being aimed at windows-specialized businesses who want to issue tablets to employees, then they can get away with that price because such targets typically prefer 'reassuringly expensive' devices.

Re:Target market?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Unless they've backed down on Active Directory on Windows RT, Team corporate IT is going to avoid these things like the plague unless specifically forced by user demand...

Re:Target market?

[ilsaloving]

Windows RT doesn't support Active Directory? O_o Why even bother then? The only advantage of using a Windows tablet would be the ability to integrate into Windows infrastructure.

Re:Target market?

[cbhacking]

It uses ActiveSync, so there's some central admin you can do, but it doesn't support domain joining for some reason.

Re:Target market?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I can only assume that somebody lost an epic power struggle in the bowels of Redmond HQ; but at present it does not. There isn't even(as currently announced) any "Professional" version you can buy, software-assurance-customer-only option you can obtain, CAL you can purchase, to turn it on.

I don't think that anybody was surprised that the consumer-facing SKUs wouldn't be able to; but that capability simply isn't for sale, period. x86 tablet? Sure. ARM tablet? No.

Re:Target market?

[bloodhawk]

The RT Devices are consumer oriented locked down Ipad equivalents, The Win 8 Pro tablets are announced but won't be available till some weeks/months after oct 26 release. The Win 8 Pro tablets are based on x86 architecture and will be manageable.

Re:Target market?

[Robert Zenz]

...unless specifically forced by user demand...

You mean boss/manager demand?

Looked good on an MBAs spreadsheet

[EmperorOfCanada]

Some MBA did up a presentation where they could make an absurd profit on each unit and then success will happen at only 10% of iPad sales.

In order to switch from an iPad to a Windows unit it would have to be so much better, so way much better, way way better. So unless it unfolds into a private jet that then flies me to my private island that comes with it I will predict that they will jig the stats on sales (force people to warehouse them and then prebook the sales) and in the end it will be Zune 2.

Right now there are two ways to sell a tablet to consumers, sell them an iPad or sell them something that looks exactly like an iPad for way less. The only possible third way would be something way better; thus MS will have had to vastly improve upon technologies that are near the leading edge of what is possible. So better than retina? Better battery life without making it an inch thick? Thinner/lighter electronics? Vastly better GUI? Vastly better Processor? Better Apps?

If MS were really lucky and had the best engineers on the planet and could get their first effort perfect I could see slight improvements on all of the above but not enough to touch Apple's marketing or enough to justify a monster price.

My prediction is that MS is going to make this all enterprisey. It will tie into office and other MS crap in a horribly incestuous way. They will provide white papers to the CTO types saying how this can improve data security and fine grain control over the user experience. What they are forgetting here is that one of the reasons for Apple's ability to break into the Enterprise market is that they don't cater to the enterprise market's OCD about ruining the user experience. I am sure that this is what killed the BlackBerry; those phones are actually pretty good. But RIM gave the telcos and sys admins too much say over what could be turned off on the phones. Many a corporate user had a complete dud of a phone after all the good bits were turned off in the name of security and productivity. Apple looks at this and just asks "Why would we allow you to ruin our phones?" Over the last few years the better companies have had a policy of BYOD that is a real winner among the employees who are the reason the company exists and a real pain among old school admins.

So basically crappy companies are going to buy a handful of these new tablets and their employees are going to put them into the microwave hoping that if they ruin enough of them they will get an iPad; or at least not have to suffer the Metro UI.

Re:Looked good on an MBAs spreadsheet

[swb]

I figure any company with a concern for managed tablet access to Windows will just buy iPads and leverage their virtualization for VDI.

Re:Looked good on an MBAs spreadsheet

[EGSonikku]

Considering Apple's tablet market share was 62% last year, and 68% this year how well can those Kindle's be doing?

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[WolfgangPG]

Windows RT is the name Microsoft gave Windows 8 when it is running on ARM chips. WinRT is the name of the new Metro framework.

Well, I guess the "Idiot Tax"

[__aarrbx5927]

applies to more than just Apple......

Re:Well, I guess the "Idiot Tax"

[AwesomeMcgee]

Yep, there's also the lottery and cigarette sales

Capacity?

[Missing.Matter]

If you can't list the full specs, you can't talk about any prices and compare across devices. iPad *starts* at $500 for 16GB, but it gets as expensive as $830. But this still neglects the facts that many manufacturers will be making Windows 8 tablets. If you don't like the specs or price of one manufacturer's tablets, then there's a market void that *will* be filled by a different manufacturer.

Re:Capacity?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Well, here's the thing: Nobody I know buys anything but the cheapest iPad. So for the majority of those customers would compare any tablet against that price and fearure set.

Re:Capacity?

[Missing.Matter]

It's probably true that the 16 gb sells more than the 32 gb, but the 32 gb still sells, and sells well.

So let's go out on a limb and say the $600 Asus tablet is 32 gb. So that leaves a void for a $500 tablet that again, *someone* in the market will produce. This is the joy of not relying on a single hardware vendor.

Re:Capacity?

[Dahamma]

The TF600T does have 32GB flash. And two cameras, 8MP & 2MP (vs 5MP and 0.3MP on iPad). And 2GB RAM (though who knows if the extra RAM is just to make up for Win8 bloat). And is 10% thinner and 20% lighter. TF600T definitely loses on the screen resolution (though driving that high res screen apparently takes almost 1/2 of the A5x's CPU power in many benchmarks, making it fairly equivalent to the Tegra 3 in real word use).

So basically, comparable features at comparable cost. But as you say, the TF600T isn't even out yet, so comparing them on incomplete specs and benchmarks is fairly pointless.

Re:Capacity?

[Missing.Matter]

So, I found the almost full specs.

Vivo Tab RT | iPad
Resolution: 1366×768 | 2048 × 1536
Screen Size: 10.1" | 9.7"
CPU: 1.4 GHz quad-core ARM Cortex-A9 | 1.0 GHz dual-core
GPU: 12-core ULP GeForce | quad-core PowerVR SGX543MP4
RAM: 2 GB | 1 GB
Rear Camera: 8 MP LED Flash | 5 MP no Flash
Front Camera: 2 MP | 0.3 MP
Sensors: Mag, Accel, Gyro, Light | Mag, Accel, Gyro, Light
Wireless: 802.11 a/b/g/n, Bluetooth 4.0 | 802.11 a/b/g/n, Bluetooth 4.0
Expansion: USB port | Apple 30 pin + $30 dongles Office: Office RT (Word, Excel, Powerpoint, OneNote) | None Storage: 32GB | 32GB
Price: $599 | $599

So the iPad wins on the screen and that's about it. Now, the iPad is about 6 months old, so it's a bit of an unfair comparison, but this is the comparison people will make until the iPad 4 is released. This particular tablet has more horsepower, better cameras, equivalent sensors and storage, included Office, native USB port.... What's left to know is size/weight/battery, but those should be comparable as well. All for the same price as the iPad.

Re:Capacity?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

That's pretty much what I'm saying, I'd guestimate a full 2/3's of the ipad's target audience will not even consider *this* tablet at *this* price point. Asus just missed the largest target audience by including 16 gb more flash. Great jorb!

Re:Capacity?

[WilliamBaughman]

Thanks for posting the specs, but I think that the base 16 GB version of the iPad with iWork (Office replacement) at $530 is a comparison that people are more likely to make. iPad may also win on battery, 4G comms, and definitely wins on ecosystem. It will probably win a comparison of productivity apps, the videos I've seen of people using Excel on Windows tablets do not look encouraging, whereas Apple has had more than two years to refine their iWork suite. The iPad also has cheaper keyboard options available, if that what's people are looking for.

Apple Haters Will Still Buy It...

[TheSwift]

A statement against mainstream will be worth $200 to some people. I'll just wait until this tech lets me do word processing as fast as a keyboard without making me pay as much as a good gaming laptop is worth.

Still hoping for a $199 Surface

[elabs]

I'm still holding out hope that Microsoft will set the example by pricing the Surface RT (not the Pro) at $200.

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[not already in use]

"Windows Runtime, or WinRT, is a cross-platform application architecture on the Windows 8 operating system. WinRT supports development in C++/CX (Component Extensions, a language based on C++) and the managed languages C# and VB.NET, as well as JavaScript. WinRT applications natively support both the x86 and ARM architectures, and also run inside a sandboxed environment to allow for greater security and stability."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime

I've never met a group of people so boastful with their ignorance. No wonder Rob Malda jumped ship, I'd be ashamed too.

Announced pricing = MSRP, however...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple pricing is never marked down. Everyone else's MSRP is.

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[Anon-Admin]

Real Trash?
Reused Technology?
Redundant technology?
Ring Token?
Rubbish Tin?
Rubber Tit?
Rectal Thermometer?

16:9 10.1" screen is useless for any serious work

[dell623]

A 15.6" 1080p 16:9 screen is nice. 14" is pushing it. 13.3 gets annoying. 10.1 is fucking ridiculous, aren't Windows 8 tablets meant to be productivity devices? Why the hell do they all (including the MS surface) have stretched out 16:9 screens that are awful for doing any real work in landscape mode with a keyboard attached?

Apple are the only ones who understand this, which is why all Apple laptops except the 11.6" Macbook Air (I guess it needed to be wide enough for the keyboard to fit, and even 11.6" 16:9 is nowhere as ridiculous as 10.1" 16:9) come with 16:10 screens, the ONLY manufacturer that I know of who still sell 16:10 laptops.

Take these prices with a grain of salt though, OEMs have a habit of pricing products rather hopefully before cutting prices to the point where stuff sells. I guess a Windows license costs a bit more than Google apps/Google Play license + Microsoft tax on Android devices (ALL major Android tablet and phone makers except Motorola and Sony pay Microsoft for every Android device they sell). But Android tablets with similar specs from Lenovo etc. are selling for $300 and even less with cash backs etc. A mid range Win RT tablet should be available for $400-450 in the market.

The update is free.

[westlake]

Trialware is great and all, but I'd hardly call it a feature if you have to pay for the 'upgrade'

From the MS "Office Next" blog:

Getting Office Home & Student 2013 RT

Office Home & Student 2013 RT is only available on Windows RT devices and is not sold standalone. The Windows RT devices available at Windows RT General Availability will include preview editions of Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote. After the final edition of Office Home & Student 2013 RT is released in a customer's language, their Windows RT device will be automatically updated with the final edition for free via Windows Update (Wi-Fi connection required). Customers can expect to get these updates starting in early November through January depending on their language. We'll publish the specific update schedule on October 26 on the Office blog.

Office Next

Re:The update is free.

[NatasRevol]

Outlook: $$$ or unavailable on WinRT?

Re:The update is free.

[mabhatter654]

Win Rt can't join domains... What are you doing to DO with Outlook?

Hint: you have to buy the full Win 8 tablet.

Re:The update is free.

[marcosdumay]

Does "full Win8" implies x86?

Re:The update is free.

[RoverDaddy]

Exactly. Windows RT = Windows on ARM. Windows 8 = Windows on x86. Microsoft announced this nomenclature a few months ago. In fact the Asus information includes a Windows 8 tablet running on an Intel Atom processor (starting at $799).

Re:The update is free.

[Samantha Wright]

Wait, what? So what excuse do they have for killing the Courier?

Re:The update is free.

[NatasRevol]

Uh, outlook supports IMAP, POP, webcal, etc.

No need for a domain.

Re:The update is free.

[Godin21]

I don't need to be on a domain to make full use of Outlook. Outlook Anywhere and an internet connection means that whatever device i can install Outlook 2003 or newer on, I can log into my Exchange server and check my mail, calendar, tasks, etc.

Re:The update is free.

[Mabhatter]

Courier was an iPad "me too" response. Trying to steal some Apple/Android thunder.... That failed miserably. Its classic Microsoft that they have brilliant people that put it together... But it was TOO dangerous to MICROSOFT (OS? Gaming? Smartphone? Office?) so the baby got killed in committee.

Re:The update is free.

[marcosdumay]

So, your tablet can only join domains if it has one of those processors that the manufacturers already anounced that can't stand to compete with ARM.

Is The Onion writting MS's strategy?

Re:The update is free.

[Samantha Wright]

But here's the irony—the lead argument constantly given was that it didn't integrate well with a corporate workflow (despite the irrelevance thereof to the purported target market.) If WinRT can't do something as essential as join domains, it's not much better.

Re:The update is free.

[bloodhawk]

One is a consumer focused device the other is an enterprise/business focused device, it isn't really about the processor so much as the target market and most likely I would expect the RT version to be much more locked down, similar to an Ipad. No different to the current situation with home editions of windows really when it comes to home/business versions.

Re:The update is free.

[Eraesr]

The requirement to join a domain (or more specifically: connect to a corporate Exchange server) is highly relevant if you're using it in a corporate, Windows driven environment. And yeah, you don't need Outlook if all you're going to do is fetch e-mail off of an IMAP or POP3 server.

Re:The update is free.

[NatasRevol]

However, many people are used to Outlook and want to use it for any email.

But they can't on WinRT.

Re:The update is free.

[Stuarticus]

You can't kill something that never existed...

Re:The update is free.

[Samantha Wright]

Actually, they had prototypes of the hardware and software that were converging. J Allard estimated that they could've had a product shipped before the iPad came out.

Re:The update is free.

[nobodie]

WTF are you talking about? the courier was developed while SJ was still with NEXT. MS just didn't release it because the market didn't exist and they didn't know how to create it.

Re:MS OFfice

[binarylarry]

Microsoft Office is _terrible_ on the new Windows mobile devices.

They really just slapped it up.

Dear Microsoft.

[gestalt_n_pepper]

I've used Windows 8. It's not that great. Nobody will pay extra for it despite what the consultants told you. Your "surface" will be a loss leader designed to gain market share or it will simply fail. Thank you for your attention.

Cheers!
Mr. ColdWaterOfRealityMan

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[0123456]

How else do you explain the price difference?

Everyone knows people are happy to pay $200 more for hardware with a Microsoft logo on the front.

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[binarylarry]

Actually, RT stands for Retarded Troll.

Pull your head out

[Zex_Suik]

of your a$$. This is Asus' pricing, not Microsoft. If you RTFA you would see that the linked source is also incorrectly stating this is Microsoft's pricing. ASUS =/= Microsoft. damn fan boys

Re:Pull your head out

[cbhacking]

Copy-pasting a retarded statement doesn't make it less retarded, it makes you look more retarded. Why does an extra $100 cost translate into a $200 price increase? That implies you're tacking on an extra $100 profit just so you can try to make a point (hint: it's not working, unless your point is that you have no understanding of even basic economics).

Incidentally, you've got the cost wrong. There's a license cost for Android if you want to use Google's stuff, plus most Android-using OEMs pay patent licensing costs on top of that. Android, as used in mainstream devices (other than Kindles and the like, which don't use any Google features), is definitely not free. Additionally, Windows RT is less than $100. The total price difference might be as much as $50, but I doubt it.

Re:Pull your head out

[exomondo]

In addition to that you get OEMs customizing Android so that comes with a cost also (Sense, MotoBlur, etc...) and you have the additional features that they add (S-Voice for example) that are costing the OEMs money to develop.

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[Ashbory]

Rejected tablet

Asus not MS...

[Brawlking]

Remember that these are Asus device, MS doesn't set the price on an Asus product. Hopefully someone will come out with a reasonably priced alternative, because I could buy a couple laptops for the price of the best Asus tablet.

Re:Asus not MS...

[0123456]

Remember that these are Asus device, MS doesn't set the price on an Asus product.

Again, Windows is likely to be one of the biggest single costs in these tablets. If they charge $100 for Windows, the retail price is going to end up about $200 more than the same hardware with Android.

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[UnknowingFool]

Um. It's not the editors. MS calls then ARM version of Win 8 RT. Second, the $200 version is at best a rumor/speculation since final pricing hasn't been announced. This article is another rumor/possible leak that the Asus price is $600.

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[J3947]

No, I don't see that comparison at all. Are you reading the same article as I am? Did Slashdot change its links to point somewhere else? After reading the article and not finding that, then going through and searching for "Android" on the article, the only reference I could even find to Android is: "Like its Androidesque cousin, the Transformer, the Vivo Tab RT can be plugged into a keyboard/battery dock — but it’ll cost you another $200 for the pleasure. (Curiously, the Transformer’s docking station only costs $150 — go figure.)"

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[zjbs14]

Wait, so it won't run on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_6150_RT? Now I am confused.

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[ngc3242]

I like how you left off the "Not to be confused with Windows RT." from immediately before the text you quoted from the article.

Here's another wiki for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT

"Windows RT (formerly known as Windows on ARM) will be a version of the Windows 8 operating system for ARM devices such as tablets. It will officially only run software available through the Windows Store or included in Windows RT. Among the applications included with Windows RT"

The OEM price of Windows RT is probably 85$

[kroyd]

Since it hasn't been mentioned: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Windows-RT-OEM-ARM-85-Nvidia,15992.html

It is not too strange that you end up with an end-user price of 600$ - the 85$ should be added to the component cost, which is what, 150$ for a tablet of this class? Basically Microsoft adds at least 50% to the base cost of the device, all other costs comes on top of that.

Google gives away Android for free, so you end up with 49.99$ tablets on Alibaba. (I should get one of those in the mail this week - looking forward to taking it apart). Apple probably does something similar, but then they're not really aiming for the cost-conscious part of the market.

Re:Its Asus Vivo Pricing not Surface RT Pring

[0123456]

Yes they have some bombs but all and all they have been extremely successful selling hardware. If nothing else they have learned a great deal with the xbox - where by the way they came from absolutely nowhere with no experience in the console business to be the dominate player in the marked.

It's easy to 'become the dominant player' if you're willing to lose billions of dollars to do so.

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[Your.Master]

WinRT is the name of the runtime, but that's not the term we were using. Windows RT is the name for Windows on the ARM platform.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT

It's confusing as hell (for developers, anwyay; not so much for consumers). Nobody knows what RT stands for in the latter context, if anything. Wouldn't be the first time a sequence of meaningless letters was used for a brand name.

Dearer Than Makes Sense

[Culture20]

Is "Dearer Than Makes Sense" a British colloquialism? I've never heard it before, and it does not make sense to my American brain. Or I'm suffering from a stroke.

Re:Dearer Than Makes Sense

[erroneus]

Indeed! When did over-priced become "dear", "dearer" or "dearest"?

Oh dear... I'm afraid Bill Gates is a dear friend to us all!

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[shutdown -p now]

To be specific...

The runtime is called "Windows Runtime" (duh). WinRT is a common but unofficial shorter version of the same.

"Windows RT" is the OS.

Re:16:9 10.1" screen is useless for any serious wo

[shutdown -p now]

Asus has actually also annouced a line-up of Win8 hybrid tablets that will have 1080p screens going up to 14" - Transformer Book. It sounds like that would be too large to use it as a tablet proper, though.

Re:16:9 10.1" screen is useless for any serious wo

[dell623]

Once the price becomes something absurd like $1200, I don't think it matters any more. I would rather have both an iPad (or a cheap 10.1" Android tablet) and a laptop at that price rather than a device that will have inevitable compromises.

Re:MS OFfice

[EGSonikku]

How much a too, are you? If you really think "MS Office" is gonna sell Windows RT to anyone but executives you live in imagination land. As far as installing apps? MS will have a store, the same as GooglePlay on Android or App Store on the iOS.

Dear Slashdot

[brit74]

This article is horrible. It lists prices for the ASUS tablet and then concludes that Windows RT (the Operating System) is overpriced. The only relevant piece of information in this article is the fact that manufacturers have said that "in June multiple OEMs said that Microsoft was charging between $80 and $95 for a Windows RT license". Using the overall price of the tablet and then concluding that the cost of Windows RT is the reason is horrible, horrible logic. Go to the primary source and figure out how the price of Windows RT ($80-$95) differs from the price of Android.

Second, you may have noticed that "Sebatian Anthony" is the author of the article (he probably gets paid by ExtremeTech according to the number of pageviews he gets). You may have also noticed that the submitter for this article is "MrSeb" and if you follow the link it leads back to Sebastian Anthony. Yup, the article's author is the same person who submitted it to Slashdot so that he could make money. This wouldn't be so bad if the article wasn't so horribly written. Just take a look at the comments in the article (mostly negative about Sebastian's leaps of logic) and compare them to the comments on Slashdot (mostly positive, probably because Slashdot loves bad press about Microsoft). Stop getting this shitty article-writer paid.

On a side note, I happen to remember seeing Sebastian Anthony on the old (now gone) "Download Squad". He was a huge advocate of piracy and used all kinds of crappy logic to justify piracy. I'm glad to see his lack of intelligent reasoning extends to his other articles as well.

Re:Dear Slashdot

[Barlo_Mung_42]

I thought MS got $5 or so for each from the patents they license. So either way MS makes more on the OS than Google.

Breakdown

[slapout]

Hardware: $200
Windows License: $400
Total: $600

Makes sense to me.

It IS completely locked down

[slashrio]

UEFI 'Secure' Boot can NOT be disabled on ARM devices.

Re:My god, slashdot editors are retarded

[gl4ss]

nice story bro but windows rt = the artist formerly known as windows on arm, did you read the wikipedia page even? the first link on the page that goes to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT ?

win8 rt is what's already commonly used in the industry to refer to it too.
despite the dearer wording, it was quite understandable that it was talking about windows 8 rt arm device pricing. and that's friggin far from the 200 bucks. that's actually the thing that made the article interesting, because there seems to be a ban on manufacturers publishing exact device pricing until the launch - and yes microsoft isn't retailing the surface RT for any price yet.

I get modded to zero and you contradicting your own linked wikipedia page get informative? though we could probably both agree that microsoft isn't the best company in branding it's products. Windows Arm and Windows x86 would have made too much sense.

Re:Shit article and inaccurate

[Anonymous Coward]

So, a 10.1" tablet has better resolution than 4" phone? Does that really seem like a fair comparison to you? I suspect the accurate comparison would be the iPad 3, with a 10." screen at 2048x1536.

Go, Asus!

[Type44Q]

Leak Hints Windows 8 Tablets May Be Dearer Than Makes Sense

Poison the well for this steaming, stinking bullshit while we've still got a chance! :)

Mod parent up

[fiannaFailMan]

"Flamebait" my ass.

Re: Trust me, editors

[slashrio]

Why would any editor trust an anonymous coward?

Re: guys in Amsterdam

[slashrio]

Which leads me to the suggestion that maybe the OP isn't English at all, but simply from Amsterdam...

Re: "my computers" and "recycling bins"

[slashrio]

If you don't like those, then try GNOME 3 for a change :)

Re: much more hassle it makes for the IT folks

[slashrio]

Don't corporate managers include those 'hassles' in the 'extra cost" for the Windows tablets?

Re:This is actually disturbingly close to the mind

[slashrio]

Why is that 'disturbing' you?
I wouldn't mind Balmer hitting the self-destruct button on this one.

Re:to think differently

[slashrio]

... includes the possibility of ditching the Windows PC Desktop altogether.

Re:Strangely high

[slashrio]

Or they will start selling it with a 'discount' to make it attractive to be an early adopter.

Re:Its Asus Vivo Pricing not Surface RT Pring

[slashrio]

I'm sure 0123456 hinted at the costs of the console, not at the overall company's performance.

Re: much more hassle it makes for the IT folks

[Sarten-X]

Of course not. The "hassle" cost is pushed to the IT department's payroll, rather than the purchasing budget. The manager looks good ("This tablet works great! And to think those IT nerds wanted to spend $10000 to migrate off of Antique Word Processor!") and the hidden cost stays hidden until later ("Look at how much overtime IT put in. Why can't those nerds ever seem to get stuff done faster?")

Re:16:9 10.1" screen is useless for any serious wo

[wvmarle]

A tablet at least you can hold vertical; those super-wide monitors are so irritating. For word processing I want height more than width. Same for web browsing and other reading tasks. Wide is only good for watching movies. And some fringe tasks like software development that 99% of the population doesn't do anyway.

And by the way good luck carrying around a 15" tablet. Bulky and heavy.

Nah. Nah. Naj. I can't hear you. ...

[westlake]

People buy office because they think they have to. Little trolls like you feed the fear. People don't buy it because they actually like it.

The geek plays this card whenever the numbers are against him.

It is so much easier then trying to really understand the success of the "walled garden" of the iOS. The failure of Linux on the desktop.

MS Office is defined by the needs and values of the 9-to-5 clerical worker --- who seem more than willing to shell out their own hard-earned money for the product.