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Designers Criticize Apple's User Interface For OS X and iOS

Hugh Pickens writes "Austin Carr notes that a number of user interface designers have become increasingly critical of Apple's approach to software user interface design. Much of their censure is directed against a trend called skeuomorphism, a term for when objects retain ornamental elements of the past that are no longer necessary to the current objects' functions, such as calendars with faux leather-stitching, bookshelves with wood veneers, fake glass and paper and brushed chrome. A former senior UI designer at Apple who worked closely with Steve Jobs said, 'It's like the designers are flexing their muscles to show you how good of a visual rendering they can do of a physical object. Who cares?' The issue is two-fold: first, that traditional visual metaphors no longer translate to modern users; and second, that excessive digital imitation of real-world objects creates confusion among users. 'I'm old enough, sure, but some of the guys in my office have never seen a Rolodex in real life,' says Designer Gadi Amit. 'Our culture has changed. We don't need translation of the digital medium in mechanical real-life terms. It's an old-fashioned paradigm.' One beneficiary could be Microsoft, where the design of Windows 8 distances itself from skeuomorphism by emphasizing a flat user interface that's minimalist to the core: no bevel, no 3-D flourishes, no glossiness and no drop shadow."

484 comments

  1. "a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's funny, because even though I don't much like Apple, I think that the "number of user interface designers" at Apple seem to have done fucking well at recognising what is easy to use.

    Is this like the way people in the GNOME project arbitrarily assign themselves the role of "user interface designers" and fuck things up three ways to Nevada?

    1. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Tx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, I was with the summary right up until it proposed Windows 8's mixed-up hash of an attempt to bolt a tablet UI and a desktop UI together as a superior alternative.

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    2. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No shit. They even invented the term "skeumorphism". I get the feeling that these are the same people who get into the extended pedantic edit wars on Wikipedia (like British English vs. US English spelling or whether Jesus' birthday should be noted in AD or CE). These people need to go something useful, preferably in a place that doesn't bother the rest of us. I'm sure they have some arbitration committee meeting that they need to attend about Spock's lineage.

    3. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by firex726 · · Score: 0

      I'd have to agree, Apple is pretty good about making their products easy to use to the unfamiliar user.
      It's enough like Windows that some basic logic can be carried over, but when doing new things can be intuitive and figured out.

    4. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Which version of Windows were you using? 'cause Windows 7 has the Control Panel button right there in the Start Menu. 2 Clicks.
      And you can put anything on your quick start/task bar for 1-click access in any version of Windows that came out in the last decade and a half.
      Your issues with Windows seem to be unfounded.

    5. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by crypticedge · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even under the most retarded configurations the control panel in windows is at most 2 clicks away. If you can't click twice to get to something the average user shouldn't be messing with (and if you've seen the average user, mac or windows, you'll agree to that point) then you shouldn't be in it anyway. I find whenever I'm on a mac I can't find shit, spending 20 minutes trying to find it, and usually end up having to open up terminal to make a change because I know linux/unix systems significantly better. That is not a criticism of the UI, any lack of ability to find something in the most efficient way is always 100% the user not knowing the system.

      A mac is no more intuitive, it's all about what you're used to.

    6. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Yet command-shift-4 space is a intuitive way to take a screenshot of a window?

      OSX has its own pain points. Especially if you are coming from a X11 DE type background.
      I installed vlc for instance, and yet vlc from the command line gets me nothing. Just an example that is easy to fix, but I should not have too.

    7. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Press the Windows key and type the first few letters of what you're looking for. Press Enter. There, now that wasn't so hard was it?

    8. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ericloewe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As you said, not knowing the OS is the problem. However, some things are clearly intended to distance OS X from Windows, while providing no usability improvement.
      Just the other day, I spent some 45 seconds trying to delete a file the Windows way. First I realized there was no Delete key, which is annoying even if it's not strictly the OS' fault. So I tried backspace, seems like a logical alternative when you want to delete stuff. Nope, so I tried right-clicking and all sorts of weird click+button combinations I could remember.

      Only then did I remember that you must absolutely drag files to the trash.

    9. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have they? I've always found that Apple's UIs are often fun to use because of the smoothness of them and fancy animation, but I've never found them to be well designed in terms of actual cold hard usability and productivity.

      Their Windows applications fail at the most basic things, like adhering to common interface principles so that Windows users can use them without trouble - instead they try to force the alien Mac interface on Windows users which adds an extra level of annoyance.

      It's been a while since I've used a Mac, but the traffic light style buttons in the top are meaningless to me, what does "Green" do? "Yellow"? "Red"? Window's minimise/maximise icons may be tricky for a new user, but the big fuck off red cross has always been pretty self explanatory at least.

      iTunes often just makes no sense whatsoever, having any clue as to whether it's sync'd tunes with my iPod was always one hell of a battle, sometimes it'd just deleted music either from my computer or my iPod. I'm sure there was a good reason for that, I was told by an Apple fanboy it was mine and my girlfriend's fault for both using different iPods on the same login with iTunes though, so whatever the real reason was non-obvious.

      Just yesterday I had an iPad app that needed to be restarted, pressing the single main button on the front of the device just seemed to put it into the background such that if I clicked it's icon, it came back in the same broken manner. I was told I needed to kill it completely (I thought you never needed to do that) and either pratting around for ages trying to find my way through Apple's "easy to use, just works" interface to find out how to do this I was told I just needed to press the round button with the square on it (what the fuck does that even symbolise?) on the front twice as if I was double clicking to bring up some taskbar from where I could kill it.

      I'm not new to computers, I have decades of experience, my experience might possibly have been moulded to Windows/Linux but seriously, if someone like me who gets deep computing concepts can't figure out how to do sometimes simple tasks on Apple's interfaces then the beginner has no hope.

      Honestly, usability is not something Apple does well, its the wow factor they pull off well and it's that that sells their interfaces. Apple's problem is that it focus too much on the visual, and stimulative human response to interfaces - i.e. keeping everything following a standardised type style guide, and producing fancy animations, but very little on actual cold hard usability and productivity.

    10. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1, Troll

      Except it rearranges them based on usage - very bad idea - and you can't expand the start menu the way you could in XP or even just drag it out so you can actually read the titles of programs...

      You can stop trolling.

    11. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by SquarePixel · · Score: 2, Informative

      As you said, not knowing the OS is the problem. However, some things are clearly intended to distance OS X from Windows, while providing no usability improvement.
      Just the other day, I spent some 45 seconds trying to delete a file the Windows way. First I realized there was no Delete key, which is annoying even if it's not strictly the OS' fault. So I tried backspace, seems like a logical alternative when you want to delete stuff. Nope, so I tried right-clicking and all sorts of weird click+button combinations I could remember.

      Only then did I remember that you must absolutely drag files to the trash.

      No you don't. Cmd+Backspace deletes them just fine.

    12. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think command-delete is what you wanted.

      It is just easier to open a terminal and use rm though.

      At least that still works like it should.

    13. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ClicklyMan · · Score: 1

      command-shift-4 takes screenshot of an area you choose. It doesn't need to be a window.

    14. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ClicklyMan · · Score: 2

      If you use keyboards with delete key then you can use it. Otherwise you can use command-backspace.

    15. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jittles · · Score: 1

      Are you trollin'? Cause I can't think of a single version of Windows since 98 (maybe even 95, I can't remember that far back) where you didn't just do Start->Settings->Control Panel. And in Windows Vista and 7 its not even in a second menu, it literally is right in front of your face the second you hit start. Oh and in Windows 7 you can pin stuff to your start menu or your task bar and its just as easy to access as the Mac's dock.

      And... if you had read the summary they are really talking about things like the Address book on the iPad and what not. They really weren't doing a Desktop OS to Desktop OS comparison, but more of a mobile OS to mobile OS. Really a lot of people have been complaining about the skeuomorphism that Apple loves. In fact, I am working on an iOS app for a Fortune 500 company and our UX guy tried to skin it just like the iPad's calendar app and the board of directors (guys used to the old school stuff) bashed it to pieces because they thought it was too cheesy. So it's not just a bunch of young guys who don't know about Rolodexes and Franklins that are complaining about what's going on there.

    16. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      hit start button -> type control panel. It appears in the list. done. Who wants to go back to winxp?

    17. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Clsid · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You just need to learn to use the system. If you complain about stuff like that on a Mac, I cannot imagine how you would be trashing Linux for all its quirkiness. Systems are different. The most productive system is the one where you learn all the keyboard shortcuts and the easiest is the one with the pretty GUIs and less clutter. Choose your poison and stop whining.

    18. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jittles · · Score: 1

      That's not true. If your Mac has a FN key (and it looks like they all do. On bluetooth/Macbook its in the lower left and its by home/delete on the fullsize), you can just hit FN-Del and it will delete the files you have highlighted. Or maybe it is FN-Backspace. Can't remember. Anyway, I do that sometimes out of instinct on the laptop.

    19. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by crypticedge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why must the user click two keyboard keys for the same function that every other os (Yes, every other one.) only requires a single key press, and a single press is a logical expected command for it? How is that exactly the "superior" UI that keeps getting touted? That's intentionally making it more difficult on the user there, and is a very valid UI criticism, and there are obviously more that can be given.

      Terminal rm is significantly easier to remember for those of us who are used to systems that work the way 94% of the world uses them (has mac os hit 7% market share world wide yet?)

    20. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      Open the System configuration pane, and enter a search keyword into the search field. The potential usefull applets get highlited then.
      Or do as noobs do: google :) even I have to do that sometimes when I comfigure something ... after all I have several differen Mac OS X versions running and they slightly differ all

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    21. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Which is why I said ""command-shift-4 space" when you press the space the pointer turns in to a little camera and takes a screenshot of a window.

    22. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by crypticedge · · Score: 1

      Reading comprehension not your strong suit I take it? That post wasn't a whine, it was a commentary on the previous posters whine. I at no point in that post complained about a mac and was very clear that my being unable to use it efficiently was due to not knowing the system. I can do stuff quickly, efficiently, and productively on windows or linux, because that's what I deal with mostly.

    23. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As others have pointed out as long as there is a "Del" key in your keyboard then it is a matter of one click press.

      This is not a UI flop. This is a hardware flop because if you do the keypresses for the Del function (Fn+Backspace) if you get - surprise - the file deleted.

      AC because I'm a C.

    24. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Real Macs have a delete key, only laptops lack it. You can use "alt/option-backspace" to get a delete key. However the correct way is: command - backspace (fan/applekey), or look a bit closer at the context menu: delete is not called delete but "move to trash" no need to drag and drop it.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    25. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you bothered to open the "File" menu, the shortcut is clearly documented next to the menu choice "Move item to trash"....

      And incidentally, there is a very rational reason why Apple chose Command-Backspace over just plain backspace: it prevents you from deleting files by mistake when you're trying to edit file names. Perhaps you are more nimble than I am, but I have accidentally moved files to the recycle bin in Windows more than once due to this "feature" in Explorer. On a Mac, the only way to get Finder to do a potentially traumatizing act from the keyboard is to keep the Command key pressed down, making accidents much more difficult. Not everything Apple does is perfect, but in this case they made the better choice.

    26. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Command + Delete
      or, top menu File > Move to Trash
      or, right click context menu, Move to Trash

    27. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by crypticedge · · Score: 1

      My mac exposure is about 2x a year, so by the time I get to one again I'll forget the system config -> search function :)

      All my customers use windows, and I use linux for some higher end projects, phone systems and routers. There is exactly 2 mac's at customer sites, and we just recently pawned the mac service off to a guy that deals with them specifically (and sends us all his windows work)

      I do end up googling a lot when I'm in front of one, but that's a much less efficient way than knowing the system of course.

    28. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure rm doesn't work in Windows either.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    29. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Right-clicking and "Move to Trash" isn't the normal way you delete things? In Windows it's right-click and "Delete"

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    30. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I tried using a windows computer after being a Mac guy for the last 7 years, and I couldn't find a damn thing. "

      That says more about your mental capabilities more then the UI design.

    31. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Shoten · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In other news...actual users criticize design of the majority of systems they use, wondering why they can't be more like IOS or the experience of using a Mac...

      --

      For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
    32. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      It works fine on windows. Install cygwin and try it out.

    33. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, yeah, that's it. Fix a broken GUI with the command line. Fucking Slashdot idiots.

    34. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you're just a dumb shit who can't be bothered to use a single menu properly?

    35. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Just the other day, I spent some 45 seconds trying to delete a file the Windows way. First I realized there was no Delete key

      Huh??? I've never seen a computer keyboard without a delete key, not a Sinclair TS-1000, not a mainframe terminal, not an IBM-PC, not a Compaq or any other keyboard. Maybe you were on an electric typewriter? Typewriters didn't have delete keys.

      In Windows, highlight what you want to delete and hit the delete key, it's right there next to the numeric keypad below "insert" and next to "end".

      Right clicking gives you "delete" as one of the choices. I've never dragged a... oh wait, you were on a Mac? Sorry, I can't help you there. However, I'm sure Windows is just as bad if not worse, I can never find anything easily in Windows.

      That goddamned "ribbon" really confused me at work. Why in the FUCK did they replace the file menu with a cryptic button with no mouseover text? Simply a retarded clusterfuck of a UI disaster. Why in the FUCK did they rename "edit" to "home"? Just to fuck with us? Fucking retarded if you ask me. I don't have a Mac, but I use XP at work, W7 and kubuntu at home, and simply can't see how iOS could possibly be more user-hostile than Windows.

    36. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's not Windows. That's a separate program.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    37. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this like the way people in the GNOME project arbitrarily assign themselves the role of "user interface designers" and fuck things up three ways to Nevada?

      Hey don't insult Nevada by putting it in the same sentence with GNOME. GNOME makes ripened turds look like banana split sundaes, and GNOMES UI developers give the mentally handicapped and genetically disabled bad names.

    38. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think right click > Move to trash might have done it. Very close to the Windows equivalent IIRC.

    39. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Bongo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed. Besides it is just textures. Architects went nuts in the 20s ripping out all texture and decoration to create a clean pure look. But in the end people found it cold and inhuman, and cold concrete and metal gets boring. So it just helps to have a bit of variety and decoration. Not everyone wants to live in MUJI world or a Rietveld Schröder House. Besides the textures offset the clean simple hardware. And when looking at a screen all day, a bit of variety helps. Of course one might not like the particular textures, that's a different matter.

    40. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      rm is not OSX either, it's either a shell builtin, or a separate program. It hitched a ride to OSX with BSD.

    41. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      Even under the most retarded configurations the control panel in windows is at most 2 clicks away.

      The Control Panel, yes... but not all the things you would expect to find there. For instance, I bought a notebook that had a very annoying "feature" where you can tap the touch pad to click. One would expect it to be under control panel-->mouse. It wasn't. I finally found it in an icon hidden to the right of the status bar at the bottom of the screen, and it took at least twenty clicks to disable the awful, terrible clusterfuck of a "feature".

      The biggest problem with Windows is as soon as you get comfortable with the OS or a program, they "upgrade" it and it seems the only changes are that they completely redesigned the interface so you have to learn it all over (Gnome is bad at that too, I hear. I use kubuntu mostly, kde has been pretty much the same for ten years. Its only upgrades improve performance or add features without making you relearn a completely new interface).

    42. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Horatio_Hellpop · · Score: 2

      ////Huh??? I've never seen a computer keyboard without a delete key,/////

      You don't get out much:

      http://www.brianmicklethwait.com/images/uploads/KeyboardAppleMac.jpg

      --
      Frammin' on the jim-jam, frippin' at the krotz!
    43. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Gideon+Wells · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This anti-skeuo fad is basically an artistic/aesthtic movement. Like or hate it, I don't think they were looking at Win 8 from a functionality standpoint. It is the visual design equivalent of a group of people going around saying "You know, full service gas stations barely exist any more. We should go on a crusade against people using the term 'fill 'er up'."

      Or more geek/nerd realted "Why the heck is a 3.25 floppy the symbol for saving still? We should invent some entirely new symbol or just use the word 'save'. Why are folders looking like folders on computers? That's lazy thinking. In fact, we should consider calling them something other than folders too...".

      --
      by Anonymous Coward: I, for one, welcome the shift from car analogies to pizza analogies. um.. overlords?
    44. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I understand your point. I have to google often myself. I'm on a german Mac. But my mind thinks in english terms and the german translations are often not 'correct'. I mean they are correct for a lay man but not fors computer scientist. So if I can not find how to share a specific folder I google for it in english and switch the UI if needed to english for a while to fix it.
      The main reason I don't use Linux is basically the same. I started to use unix in 1987 ... I know what a cron tab is or what most other configuration files are for. But changing one, seeing it works (after restarting a demon or what ever) and realising after the next reboot everything is gone because you are supposed to use super duper configuration tool XYZ which overwrites the config files on startup gave me to many gray hairs :)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    45. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by NatasRevol · · Score: 0

      If I had to install that shell, I'd agree with you, but OS X is based on BSD so it's part of the package that is OS X.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    46. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you bothered to open the "File" menu, the shortcut is clearly documented next to the menu choice "Move item to trash"....

      And incidentally, there is a very rational reason why Apple chose Command-Backspace over just plain backspace: it prevents you from deleting files by mistake when you're trying to edit file names. Perhaps you are more nimble than I am, but I have accidentally moved files to the recycle bin in Windows more than once due to this "feature" in Explorer. On a Mac, the only way to get Finder to do a potentially traumatizing act from the keyboard is to keep the Command key pressed down, making accidents much more difficult. Not everything Apple does is perfect, but in this case they made the better choice.

      I'll admit I am not a UI expert, but accidental deletion is the exception and not the rule. Therefore, it would make sense that the exception has extra steps to recover. In this case, any place where you can delete files in Windows you also have an Undo that puts things right back. This is as opposed to requiring additional keypresses to make the default action possible, instead of cat-proofing the keyboard.

      The further exceptional case is that a delete is issued for a file so large it cannot be undone, in which case it prompts you for that extra step to confirm.

      My biggest annoyance with OSX versus Windows is that copying a folder with the same name where one exists does not merge the contents, it replaces the old folder with the new one, after a confirmation. Windows has a confirmation, too, to confirm the merge action. Both do their thing when you click YES/OK, but one leaves me with disappeared files and the other leaves me with slightly more disorganized files.

    47. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Mac Mini Wireless keyboard doesnt have a delete button, are you saying your laptop is a 'more real' Mac? Also, the latter part of your post is silly, if its being moved to the recycle bin, its not a delete.

      --
      Good-bye
    48. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by theurge14 · · Score: 1

      Right click > Move to Trash

    49. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by agentgonzo · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Why do designers put pretty effects like wood, brushed chrome and glass in? Because they make it look pretty, and people like pretty things. Sure, it doesn't really add any functionality and you could do it entirely with a single block of colour like Google's new 'clean' interfaces or Windows 8 (formerly-known-as) Metro. But given the choice between two interfaces that do the same thing, one pretty and one bland, I'll choose the pretty one every time.

    50. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by agentgonzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In fact, we should consider calling them something other than folders too....

      In the linux world (and pre-Windows-95 world), we call them 'directories'

    51. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by djdanlib · · Score: 2

      As one designer I follow thinks, we need to get rid of the idea of "Save" altogether, and just have some sort of "Undo everything I did in this whole entire session" button. Saving is not a concept that people without computers are familiar with, so it's an idea that was invented FOR computers, and it's becoming increasingly unnecessary. It's not as scary as you think after you get used to it. Objects IRL like a whiteboard/todo list/grocery list on your fridge don't need to be saved. Construction workers don't "save" a building while they're working. Your changes are effective as soon as you make them. Look at GDocs, you don't save there, it just makes changes right away. And how many times have people lost work because the program crashed and they didn't save? Did you know people are still turning off Autosave because of some voodoo mythology that it might crash the program?

    52. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've found that indexed metadata searching has improved everything on all systems. I don't have to remember commands or where files or specific applications are located, but if I do, bully for me and I can still do things the old way. Now, that being said, I hate not having access to the file system on iOS, but there was never really another way to do things, so search works just fine.

    53. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, if you know how to get where the file lives. Knowing the particular idiosyncrasies of the OS is still important.

    54. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anarchduke · · Score: 1
      --
      who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
    55. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try PowerShell then, it also has "rm" and some other typical unix commands.

    56. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe not, but Powershell sure is, and rm works just fine, thankyouverymuch.

    57. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by MrEdofCourse · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem with the one key DEL as opposed to the two-key Command+DEL, is that with the one key, it would be very easy to accidentally delete files. No big deal, right? You could just recover them from the trash... but that's only if you know you did that. Two-keys prevents that.

      I'm also not sure why a single key would be expected anyway, when every other "command" is preceded by the Command key.

      Command+s = save
      Command+q = quit
      Command+o = open
      Command+p = print ...
      Command+DEL = delete

      How, after 45 seconds, did you not get this, especially when the shortcut is listed right there in the file menu?

    58. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anarchduke · · Score: 2

      my typewrite had a delete key...

      --
      who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
    59. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's funny, you don't provide actual counter arguments. Sad, pathetic fanboy. Get a life.

    60. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 1

      Even under the most retarded configurations the control panel in windows is at most 2 clicks away.

      And then? After you hit the control panel the click-pahts can be pretty daunting, or they could be prior to Windows 7, I haven't taken a long hard look at Win 7. A friend of mine worked on a tech support line for a telecom as a student. Her assessment was that with Windows XP/Vista when talking a user through some sort of network/hardware configuration procedure, the click paths were sometimes so long and confusing you lost track of what the customer was doing and had to tell him/her to shut all open windows and start again. With the Mac this was much less of an issue. Linux users, as usual, were up a creek without a paddle unless the random tech guy they happened to allocated by the switchboard happened to be a Linux geek or a CS student.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    61. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Except it rearranges them based on usage - very bad idea - and you can't expand the start menu the way you could in XP or even just drag it out so you can actually read the titles of programs...
      On top of that
      You can stop trolling.

      Huh? Items pinned to the start menu or task bar do NOT get rearranged based on usage. They stay in the order you added them (and you can rearrange them as you please). It is only the auto-generated list in the bottom left that is rearranged, and you can actually size that however you want including setting the size to zero to remove it completely. So set it to zero and all you have are pinned items which do not rearrange.

      Who's trolling now?

    62. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by hackula · · Score: 1

      Aunt Tilly can use what she wants. I personally love the Start>Search feature in Win7 and the spotlight in OSX.

    63. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you complain about stuff like that on a Mac, I cannot imagine how you would be trashing Linux for all its quirkiness.

      Quirkiness? How? You realize, I hope, that there is no one Linux, there are many different distros of Linux. Gnome? I hate it. KDE? In what way is it quirky? It follows every convention I can think of, and if you're used to Mac or Windows (any flavor of either) you'll find it very easy to use; much easier than any version of Windows. Windows is a useability nightmare (I understand iOS is pretty useable, maybe even better than kde; I haven't used it).

    64. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by mlong · · Score: 1

      And who defines pretty? I think the fake wood look of the Kindle Fire interface is hideous...but that is just me

      --
      //m
    65. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      You didn't try all sorts of weird click+button combinations, nor did you try right click because both right click and ctrl-click open a context menu with "Move to Trash" in it amongst other things.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    66. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah because "Control Panel" is so intuitive for Aunt Tilly to just type the fuck out. Moron.

      Hey moron. Aunt Tilly can just click the link titled "Control Panel" which appears around the middle on the right side of the start menu. If Aunt Tilly can't read, then yeah, I guess XP was a little better since it had an icon next to it. But if Aunt Tilly can't read, I think accessing the Control Panel is going to be the least of her problems on the computer.

    67. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why in the FUCK did they replace the file menu with a cryptic button with no mouseover text?

      What exactly would you put in the mouseover text?

    68. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows 7 start menu doesn't rearrange things based on usage. It's alphabetical. The control panel button is always in the same place in the quick access section of the start menu.

    69. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      Typing "cont" into the search was enough to bring it to the top of the list for me.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    70. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by flimflammer · · Score: 1

      Wow, total comprehension fail. That was his entire point.

    71. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      On top of that, whatever items you "pin" to the top portion of the Start Menu remain static and in the order you specify.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    72. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      A wireless keyboard is the same as a laptop one more or less, so what is your point?
      On windows 'delete' also only moves into the 'bin'.
      To delte it directly you have to hit shift on windows and alt on Macs ... what exactly is your point?
      Your point is when window right mouse menu says 'delete' it is moved into the bin instead of being deleted? And on Mac if you chose right mouse menu "move into trash" it is not deleted either, well you are insightfull!

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    73. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right about familarity with the OS being the most significant factor. I support a number of local folks that are basically computer illerterate and the change from XP to Win7 threw many of them for a loop. Thankfully, I was aware of the differences having run the Beta/Preview for 18 months before pushing the actual upgrade to the rest of the home network.

      What I had to do was place the icons they were used to on the desktop, in the place they were used to them being for them to be able to use Win7. The biggest advantage for me though, was the ability to configure them as standard user, thus they have to call me when UAC pops up asking for permission to install/change settings. It's saved me lots of agravation since they no longer pickup every damn toolbar or other from FB/Yahoo or those damn card sites.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    74. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

      Because "delete files" should be a two-click operation so users don't do it by accident. Kind of like the flip cover on the self-destruct button in my secret volcano base.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    75. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Tangential · · Score: 1

      It is just easier to open a terminal and use rm though.

      At least that still works like it should.

      My experience is that most important actions are easier to do in terminal than through finder (or in a command window than in explorer.)

      --
      Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain
    76. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by nizmogtr · · Score: 1

      On OS X, System Preference (Mac version of control panel) is "one-click" away, just click once on the Apple icon on the upper right hand corner of your screen and there is there you have the System Preference. Or if you are like me, you keep it in your dock, and its right in your face and again "one-click" away.

    77. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Windows: Start -> control panel (works in XP, Vista, 7)
      Apple: Applications -> Control Panel.

      hmm... not noticing a huge difference there. They work about the same. I can make links to both on the desktop in both operating systems too...

      OK... Apple has the doc and as of Vista MS killed the quicklaunch bar, so I have to download RocketDock for the same effect :-(

      But, just because you can't figure it out, being an experience Mac user, and a novice Windows user, doesn't make it unintuitive, it just means one isn't a clone of the other. But using that as a basis of comparison for ease of use and intuitiveness... I retarded.

      I could just as easily say "I've been using windows for 17 years, and I find everything confusing and counterintuitive when I use a Mac (at least, I did when I first started using them), therefore Macs aren't user friendly." While the premise is true, that conclusion would be equally idiotic.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    78. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Except it isn't a broken GUI. It's arranged differently, but that's not broken.

      Oh I see..

      GUI isn't like Apple -> it is broken
      GUI is like Apple -> it is stolen/cloned, and they should stop making it and/or pay Apple!

      hmm....

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    79. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by flimflammer · · Score: 2

      Depending on the usage, having an "unending undo" could be prohibitively expensive. I can't imagine the requirements of such a system while in a large photoshop document for instance. Just having 20 history slots in such a document can get unwieldy. I think if we erased saving altogether and went with unlimited undo/instant commit, we'd start seeing some sort of "snapshot" type system in the undo stack which essentially just reinvents saving in a traditional sense. Sometimes we want to start form a specific point and if it doesn't work out, go back to the beginning. Having to pinpoint the exact moment you started something in a gigantic list of user steps doesn't sound very great from a usability standpoint.

    80. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah because Aunt Tilly will have a great time figuring that out too. *nerds not getting it*

    81. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey dummy, nobody gives a fuck about your nerd shit. Trying selling your command line to the legion of newbs in the world. Idiots on parade today.

    82. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing what is intuitive, is nipple from what everyone feeds when they born. Everything else after that is learn.

      There is no intuitive user interface, everything is just familiar.

      No one should use word "Intuitive" when talking about user interfaces, especially graphical ones. As they are not intuitive at all, only familiar after learning them.
      Example, a basic light switch on these days on wall, isn't intuitive. No one can not walk in the room first time in their life and right away understand that pressing that switch causes light on the ceiling to be turn on.

      A door knob, it isn't intuitive, no one would know first time seeing a door front of the door way, that they need to go and twist/turn that thing to get it unlocked and then pull/push door to get it open.
      Those are not intuitive actions, they are familiar ones what everyone has seen when they were kids.

      Same thing is with graphical user interfaces in computer screens etc. To unlock a Windows 8 lockscreen, user needs to either drag picture up with a mouse (totally own kind story to learn how to use a mouse or touchpad etc) or then press a key in keyboard to get it to login screen.

      Again, what is a login screen? What is a account? What is username and password? Those are learned things, not intuitive at all.

      When first time meeting a Windows 8 launcher, it is informative, that user can just watch and see different kind information being changed, updated and hold there. But it isn't intuitive at all that user needs to click those tiles to get to content itself.
      Scrolling horizontally is not intuitive, hot corners are not intuitive, heck, even the re-ordering of tiles positions is totalla un-intuitive. Everything is need to be learn again.

      Difference is, those who are not familiar with anything, has easier way to learn new stuff because familiar habits are not burtain to them.

      Having a familiar graphical interface elements, like clock, calender book etc, just makes it easier and faster to recognize what it is about. Yeah, young kids haven't probably seen a calender/phone book ever, but what does a old landline phone silhouette tell them? Nothing! Or why is moms/dads brother picture in three different tiles among other unfamiliar people? Not intuitive at all.

      Heck, handing a Windows Phone what someone has used 12 months finds other phone hard to use and too complex to find anything. Because Metro design isn't intuitive or correctly information.

      There is information overload where everyone see blinking, flashing and transforming shapes, text, pictures etc all the time. You need to focus and quess a lot to get something out of it.

      Having a static icons what are familiar among all, is much better because you have something what to rely on when time comes and when icons stays still next to each other without transforming to something else or being some other position on display, user can memorize better their locations and meaning and find them. Thats why iOS and Android grid formation is much better because person just needs to remember "It was page 2 and top left corner". When in Windows Phone or Windows 8, there is a demand for search and continually scan the display when scrolling it trough.

    83. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yikes. Gotta say, "PrtSc" is better.

    84. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      In windows, accidental deletion is the fucking norm. That's why they created the recycle bin, because people would hit the damn delete key by mistake and "Poof" File Gone completely. Keep in mind this goes back to WFW 3.11 as it was in Win4.0a (95) that MS introduced the recycle bin.

      When Using linux, I don't use a recycle bin unless the WM offers it because file deletion is a two key requirement or as stated filename -rm to do so (still a two key combo). I think it's a failure of the UI that requires any kind of recycle bin as it indicates the designers didn't think it through and follow the "KISS" principle.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    85. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by azav · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Nope. Since 10.6.8, the interface has become significantly more irritating to use.

      I spend more time turning irritating animations off and restoring graphics to a useful state (damn damn desaturated buttons in Lion) that these new updates cost me more money than if I had just stayed with Snow Leopard.

      Sadly, Apple dropped making fixes for Xcode with Snow Leopard and that leaves things in a shitty state, basically forcing me to upgrade, even though there is no other useful reason to do so besides Xcode.

      --
      - Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
    86. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Well, a mandatory two-key sequence would also protect me from accidental spacebar presses. And don't get me started on the shift key.

      Actually, the shift key actually HAS been a problem recently, in the Android version of Firefox (and probably translates over to a lot of other Android apps). It's really easy when fumbling around on the touchscreen to enter symbols to end up back in alphanumeric mode with caps-lock on.

    87. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I finally found it in an icon hidden to the right of the status bar at the bottom of the screen, and it took at least twenty clicks to disable the awful, terrible clusterfuck of a "feature".

      That's because tap-to-click (which I truly adore, along with two-finger-tap to right-click) is not a feature of windows but rather a feature of your trackpad, and so the controls for it are in the trackpad drivers/application support not in windows proper.

      How well the controls are integrated into windows is up to the 3rd party; most good ones at least tie in enough that you can launch their driver applet from the logical control point -- nvidia and amd both let you get to their driver applets via the display control panel. Most sound cards do as well. But anything else is a crap shoot.

      I don't disagree with you that there is no way an average user could know this. And I do agree its a PITA.

      But Mac's really aren't any better with 3rd party hardware. Plug in a razer gaming mouse in a mac, and all the advanced button configuration programming has to be done via the razer application suite, not via the mouse control panel.

    88. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Folders > Directories.

      It is easier to the layman to say. It is functionally the same thing, but folders are an ideological skeuomorphism, which is fine and allows for greater ease of understanding for new customers.

      Folders will be around until paper or offline information is not needed, but the floppy disk is outdated and people being born will not see one outside of a museum. That is the problem, and the word, "Save" is too long unless it is desired to associate shortenings such as "Sa" or "Save" or possibly "S" as to will get associated with saving information down the road, it is a not so great start.

      Disks seem to be around for some time and will be for many reasons, but the disk such as a CD is associated with music and not saving, so that would be a possible change while not a great one. A better option would be to have a sort of "dynamic" design and instead of a stationary object, have an arrow or something to show action. Personally I'd find an arrow start off the side and then following the spin of a disk reaching back on itself would provide a good enough difference and last for generations. That is until disks are completely phased out. 15-20 years (?) until networks will supersede the "need" for physical transportation.

    89. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      The new Windows 8 UI is also fugly. It's fugly. This seems to be an elephant in the room nobody wants to mention because we're all supposed to be adoring the supposedly forward-thinking and trendy "minimalism". Reality check, it's a piece of ugly ass I don't want to be looking at every day.

      That said, Apple also needs to be blasted for some of its UI design problems, but not for "skeuomorphism" - but for, what the fuck Apple, it took you until 2012 to have visual feedback for a window resize sash? Seriously? Another elephant in the room, while we're all also worshipping Apple, is that some aspects of their US design has been stuck in the 1980's.

    90. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seconded. We need everything redesigned because "designers" are bored.

    91. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      No, using ls and rm is more important.

      Because that works across a whole host of OS.

    92. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by PeanutButterBreath · · Score: 2

      Coming up after the break, Apple partisan oblivious to non-Apple perspective.

      Click the red gem to "close" this application without quitting for some reason. Press enter to rename this application for some reason.

    93. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by BeanThere · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe we should go further, and get rid of the concept of computers - after all, computers are not a concept people without computers are familiar with.

      There are many things people do in real life that are purposely throw-away, including builders. It is a terrible and retarded idea to think that everything must be saved instantly. All people have a mental concept like "scratch space" or "throwaway work". Even builders will try certain new things, e.g. techniques in a test 'throwaway' or practice environment before doing them on a real project. If it were true that everything should be saved instantly, why do we even bother having a pre-submit stage while entering forum comments? Hey, let's just show our forum comments live, continually even as we are typing them. This 'continually save instantly' meme is terrible - what is worse is that now we will have an environment where some software users get used to not saving their work, and then lose work in other software. But then maybe that's the idea - that users will subtly get angry at other non-Apple software for 'losing their work' - a sly psychological manipulation.

    94. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Are you retarded?

      Yes I read it... I ignored the command line because it is a SEARCH BOX, not a COMMAND LINE. It has less command line like features than the google home page search box.

      So, yes, I ignored the parent's incorrect information in my reply, rather than flaming the hell out of them. Sorry.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    95. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jon_doh2.0 · · Score: 1

      No, Allan, you cont.

    96. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meh. Change for changes sake. If it works and 95% of the computer using population know what the symbol on the button does, why change it.
      Another example of a bunch of bloggers thinking they represent the general population.

    97. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jrroche · · Score: 1

      My go-to example of Macs not being intuitive is how you install/uninstall programs. After years on a PC I decided to try a Mac. For weeks I ran programs by running the installer and checking the box to open when finished because I couldn't figure out how to keep them installed. Then a long-time Mac-user friend told me, "do what you would do if you were the dumbest person alive." So I just dragged the icon in the installer into the Applications folder and voila, it was installed and I could run it from there from then on. And to uninstall, you just drag it to the trash! It sounds intuitive, except anyone used to doing it differently would never think of doing it that way.

    98. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      it is a SEARCH BOX, not a COMMAND LINE

      You idiot. You type shit into it, press Enter and shit happens. The very defining characteristic of a cli interface. You are literally the dumbest motherfucker on Slashdot today. Dice should hand you an award.

    99. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by vallette · · Score: 1

      I know you said you tried right clicking but you obviously didn't. If you actually had you would've seen the "Move to trash" option.

    100. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by cellocgw · · Score: 2

      And you can put anything on your quick start/task bar for 1-click access in any version of Windows that came out in the last decade and a half.
      Untrue. Win7 does not allow anything other than applications (exe) to be pinned to the taskbar. There are workarounds, but they are painful and tedious.
      There are lots of other stupid un-features of Win7's task bar and start menu, but they've been discussed often enough in the past.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    101. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PowerShell ships with an "rm" alias to Remove-Item, so if you open it up and run "rm myfile", myfile is deleted.

    102. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by tofubeer · · Score: 1

      Odd... I am posting this on my MacBook Pro (a Mac laptop), and it has a delete button on it...

    103. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are folders looking like folders on computers? That's lazy thinking. In fact, we should consider calling them something other than folders too...

      These have been called "directories" since... forever.

    104. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by tooyoung · · Score: 5, Funny

      I love their idea that we should update the application icons to be represented with more modern tools. Here are some icon suggestions for different apps that people might use based on the tool that they now use for that functionality:
      Phone - cell phone
      Calculator - cell phone
      Note taker - cell phone
      Music player - cell phone
      Camera - cell phone
      Web browser - cell phone
      Photo viewer - cell phone
      Facebook - cell phone
      Calendar - cell phone
      Alarm clock - cell phone
      Contacts - cell phone

    105. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by afgam28 · · Score: 1

      Why are you bringing GNOME into this? The "number of user interface designers" in the article is largely made up of ex-Apple designers. These are the ones who made Mac OS X look like it does today.

    106. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by denmarkw00t · · Score: 1

      But then maybe that's the idea - that users will subtly get angry at other non-Apple software for 'losing their work' - a sly psychological manipulation

      Makes perfect sense! Why, when I'm using Word in Windows and I just close out a document before saving and it's all "Hey! This isn't saved would you like to " blah blah blah I just immediately go to the Task Manager and force it to exit because I'm used to not saving in OSX DERP~

      Auto-saving has been happening since before it was a "neat trick" for Lion, and particularly in your word processors - if even they still prompted you, if your computer went poop suddenly and you rebooted and reopened Word, you'd get a nice "Oh, yeah, um, something happened. But don't worry! I was auto-saving"

      tl;dr can't tell if troll...

    107. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And there in lies the problem, unfamiliarity.

      I right click, and move to trash is an option in the menu.

    108. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      The search feature is not the same thing as a command line.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    109. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by denmarkw00t · · Score: 1

      No, the Windows CLI is just slightly different - del works fine

    110. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      As one designer I follow thinks, we need to get rid of the idea of "Save" altogether, and just have some sort of "Undo everything I did in this whole entire session" button.

      Apple IS trying that. Starting with Lion, they've been experimenting with such things - questioning why do we have "save" buttons, or even "quit". Granted it puts people off kilter, which is why they had to call it "Save As" in Mountain Lion, but the basic concept was the OS manages saving for you in the background. If you hit Save, it creates a checkpoint as it normally would. If you want to revert, you can browse the complete history of your document (and even copy/paste parts from much earlier revisions but deleted later). And it's not lost after you quit or reboot.

      Downside is, it only works for some applications because it requires application support.

      It's an extension of the Time Machine concept for individual applications - where instead of browsing your machine at certain points in time, you browse the state of your document. (Of course, you can always do a "save as" (or "save current copy" on lion) to generate a completely clean, no history attached copy.

      The problem is, computer users are pretty nervous about stuff like that - oddly they expect their phones and such to save their document when they switch to another app, but get worried when their PC tries to do the same for them.

    111. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by denmarkw00t · · Score: 2

      Consider that a large portion of the world are using Windows, which lacks rm (although del serves the same purpose). Take even further that a majority of day-to-day Windows users have never come in contact with the CLI - they wouldn't know a del from a grep from an ifconfig from an ipconfig. I'm betting that Command+Del on Macs is more of a legacy thing - it's how it always worked in Finder, don't change it. Rather have the new users coming to OSX learn it the Apple Way then suddenly change it up on your existing user base.

      If you aren't familiar with an OS, it's always possible to Google some keyboard shortcuts and "crash course" material to get up to speed on the basics:

      Windows: Ctrl+W Mac: Cmd+W
      Windows: Alt+F4 Mac: Cmd+Q
      (with file selected) Windows: Backspace Mac: Cmd+Backspace

      And, fwiw, I prefer the Mac way - suddenly people aren't hitting backspace by mistake and going "Now where the heck did that file go??" Would be super-useful when doing family tech support with my parents, on Windows, where they click and hit keys all the time and wonder how they lost a file or got the start menu on the top of the screen and 50% of the height - "The blue bar! It's on top and I can't see anything!"

    112. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      What this debates says to me. We do not have the skills to make our programs look like that, So we will come up with reasons on why it is bad.

      Me I actually prefer Windows 8 UI, it actually is simple but nice at the same time. However Apple does seem to be able to keep skeuomorphism at the correct level for the most part. When you try to copy Apples design you will tend to fail because there is so much skill and attention to detail that you will undoubtedly while close still just get it not quite right.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    113. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Sheik+Yerbouti · · Score: 1

      Don't forget throwing in the Zune and Xbox 360 UIs in for good measure. Complete with mystery meat navigation wait I have to hover off to the right to get bar to pop up to do stuff. How intuitive is that you can't even see it.

    114. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can also use a two-button mouse (first thing I get for a new Mac), right-click, and 'Move to Trash'.

      Same as right-click 'Delete' on Windows. Same thing, diff terminology.

      I use Linux/Windows/Mac/BSD pretty interchangeably. Anyone with a good grounding in computers shouldn't have any trouble with *any* of them. Anyone who does have too much trouble is too tied to one or two OSes.

    115. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by quacking+duck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Accidental spacebar presses do not invoke a "destructive" command in the file browser.

      On a modern Mac OS file browser (Finder) the spacebar invokes QuickLook, on Windows (Explorer) it selects a bordered file (or does nothing). Assuming you're not in filename edit context, of course.

      The other issue with just using delete on files on the Mac is, you can't count on there being a "forward delete" key since even desktop Macs ship with the smaller, non-extended keyboard.

      For the same reason, there is no filesystem "Cut" command on a Mac, via menu or shortcut keys. On Windows this is of course just the first part of a file-move sequence. It's inherently non-destructive so here, at least, Apple doesn't have good reason for excluding it.

      What's your issue with accidental shift key presses?

    116. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      Objects IRL like a whiteboard/todo list/grocery list on your fridge don't need to be saved.

      There's been a long stream of technologies for saving whiteboards. I'm sitting in a building that has at least two generations of them in different conference rooms-- one is a whiteboard that has a flexible writing surface that can be drawn past a scanner and printed (and presumably saved, but I've never seen that done). There's another that has special pens that measure their location in realtime to reproduce what's drawn. There have been many others. If you work in an environment where whiteboards are common, and people work on them dynamically, you very frequently want to "save" them. I usually just take a picture or two.

      And back in the day, there was even a standard way to "save" a blackboard. You wrote "SAVE" in really big letters up in the corner and the after hours blackboard cleaner would leave it up until you erased where it said "save".

    117. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Third+Position · · Score: 1

      What icon does Slashdot use for articles about music? An Edison cylinder phonograph, a technology that hasn't been in common use for nearly a century, and is rarely if ever actually seen outside of a museum.

      The point is that whether or not an icon representing a function reflects a technology currently in common use has nothing to do with weather people will associate it with a particular function. People who have grown up familiar with "folders" as a metaphor for "directory" or "phonograph" as a metaphor for "music" will associate the icon with the function regardless of whether or not they were ever familiar with the original technology the metaphor was based on.

      --
      American Third Position
      Finally, a real choice!
    118. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jmerlin · · Score: 1

      I find this is because there's a significantly different design principle at play here. OSX is built around simplicity and presenting less information so as to make it easier to use for "normal" people (ie: people who aren't going to be re-configuring the OS, etc). Windows is built around providing you basically every feature you could want to change in a UI, that's pretty trivial to access if you know how (a few remain command-line only, and most things can be changed from command line but not all).

      The problem with the former is that it severely inhibits what experienced/skilled users can do with your software. When an interface is intentionally made simpler so people don't have a hard time learning how to use it, it necessarily means feature restriction. As you say, I've found that I spend more time in a terminal on OSX than I do in its pretty looking interfaces, because they're just useless. There's a hard ceiling on how productive you can be on OSX at certain tasks, and more so on an iDevice. And yes, this is highly application-specific, so things like Sublime Text don't suffer from this even on OSX while looking pretty (because it has a metric fuckton of shortcuts, and they're lovely), but most of the stock OSX things do, and everyone trying to design software in the "OSX-way" are running into the same issue. It's the same problem I still have with the new GMail interface. It may be simpler to understand for fresh users (and honestly, fresh users : experienced users has to be somewhere around 1:500), but I feel half as productive with it.

      The problem with the latter is that because the goal is to expose all functionality in UI, there's a lot of UI, and UI is hard to get right. It also results in tons of menus and option panes to expose that feature set, and those tend to be really ugly and clunky to navigate. Compare editing Sublime Text's settings to configuring VS2010's settings. I can ctrl+f on a settings file. I can replace in a settings file. And I have a user-override file that I can clear to instantly restore my settings to the default, and I don't have to go hunting down some never-documented ini/cfg/whatever file that houses some of the configuration (project files) or *gulp* editing registry settings. In VS it's windows upon windows upon windows with option pane upon option pane upon multi-billion row drop-down upon ugly wizard upon .. fuck me. But for a lot of use-cases, I find I'm more productive in Windows because the thought process is different than OSX: more functionality. Sometimes this makes it harder for a person to use software initially, but productivity isn't as impacted by it.

      So the real solution here should be obvious from my complaints. A hybrid between the two. OSX-style minimalism is fine, so long as you provide a user the ability to enable more features so you aren't handicapping their productivity. Windows-style feature richness is fine, so long as you aren't exposing it to a user in a horribly inefficient manner (ugly, hacked-together UI). Prefer config files over hundreds of screens of option pages. They are painful to use, and I've NEVER seen one done right, not even skeublearghs. Allow users to open and edit config files within your application, or launch a text editor. Anything that obeys normal editing shortcuts and has an undo history and is searchable is sufficient, you don't have to re-implement Textmate, Sublime Text, vim, or Emacs.

      This is why I both like and hate Linuxes like Ubuntu. A lot of things are trivially configurable via /etc/, even if some aren't consistent with others, and more in ~/. directories or config files, but some things are even more insidiously hidden than that. The changes in interface could work, but they hide way too much functionality in inconsistent command line invocation, and it's not immediately clear what executable a window represents, nor whether it is a process forked by a parent. Even if you know how to do that via command line, you shouldn

    119. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by djdanlib · · Score: 1

      Well the point was more like this... You don't need to 'save' it explicitly, because it stays in the same state until you do something different to it. You can't go back in time with it, though, which is why a Revert function gives a computer an advantage.

      Those scanner-whiteboards are pretty cool. I've seen them in another office where I work. I've had the privilege of using Smartboards as well. It was definitely a step forward for technology to be able to sync whiteboards across the country during a conference call, for sure.

    120. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty sure is troll... Number of logical fallacies + calling parent's idea retarded (is this the 1980s?) + Apple getting involved somehow

    121. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes I've read that and frankly I thought the guy was an idiot (for the very reasons flimflammer and BeanThere explain). Computers are NOT the 'real world'. They are infinitely more flexible. Not overwriting something until the user says "yeah, this is what I really want" is an improvement over the physical world.

    122. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by djdanlib · · Score: 1

      It's true. I use Photoshop occasionally and I know how large uncompressed image data can be. I'm thinking that the "Undo everything I did in this whole entire session" button (as I mentioned) is a different idea than unlimited Undo steps though. It's more like the Revert command you see in some apps. Checkpointing when you start your session is probably useful for many applications.

      The idea isn't necessarily a one-size-fits-all. In Photoshop your work can be so complex and subjective that you need a ton of checkpoints (aka saving the document) to rewind your work a few minutes/hours back during an all-day session. But now we're talking about version control which is kind of a different subject and could also be handled differently than it is currently.

    123. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ericloewe · · Score: 3, Informative

      Macs don't have delete keys.

      Yeah, it's freaking stupid.

    124. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What the heck is a 3.25" floppy?

      I remember when Apple][ programs ran from a 5.25" floppy, and I used lots of 3.5" floppies with my old DOS machine. I've even seen a larger-than-5.25" floppy (7-inch?) that was used as a hall pass in my high-school computer class.

      I've never seen a 3.25" floppy.

      Also, to answer your question, iconography is hard. That's why the icons invented back in the 80's are still in use today. Go look up some interviews with Susan Kare and you'll find out how much effort was put into those original MacOS (mid-80's) and Windows 95 (mid-90's) icons. The "Clarus the DogCow" icon has a very interesting reason for its existence, and it performed its duty admirably until better and more generic alternatives could exist (once the users understood why Clarus was there in the first place).

    125. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      In my defense, I'm never sure I got the right click right on macbook touchpads (don't use them nearly enough to get used to it). I could swear I tried control, but maybe I remembered to just drag it before getting to control+click

    126. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      That would seriously defeat the purpose of it being a laptop, but thanks for the command+backspace tip!

    127. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      At that point, it's faster to drag the damned icon to the trash, instead of digging for the terminal window.

    128. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On a full-sized keyboard, use the Delete key. Mac people call this the "Forward Delete" key. It will delete a file. (NOTE: This can also be performed on a laptop keyboard with the use of the "Fn" (function) hardware modifier key, or by setting auto-Fn in the keyboard settings of Mac OS X.)

      On a compact keyboard (laptop-style), use the Apple-Backspace key combination. The backspace (or Backward Delete) key is not the Delete key, and thus is not used for the same command. It is perfectly logical to require a modifier for this to work.

      Using a mouse, drag the item to the trash. You're disposing of that file. Use a proper receptacle. It's logical, especially for those who learn by seeing rather than by rote.

      Using first a mouse, then any keyboard, with both hands on it or with a lot of time spent hunting and pecking, you can also use rm [switches] {filename}. You must first use a mouse to start Terminal.app, then place your hands (plural!) on the keyboard and type all of that out. Which is equal to 3 + (number of characters in switches) + (length of filename and possibly path) characters to type.

      And you're bitching about Apple-Backspace? Seriously? And it's not like the single-key version doesn't work. It just isn't available on a shitty laptop keyboard without a modifier.

      And before you cry "bias!", take note. I'm a Windows guy, personally. I used to like the Mac, but it just feels like it's coated in foam rubber and mostly useless now.

    129. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Ossifer · · Score: 1

      Arrows, eh? So you actually use bows and arrows for hunting?

    130. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are many things people do in real life that are purposely throw-away, including builders. It is a terrible and retarded idea to think that everything must be saved instantly. All people have a mental concept like "scratch space" or "throwaway work". Even builders will try certain new things, e.g. techniques in a test 'throwaway' or practice environment before doing them on a real project.

      Which is one of the things which having a "save" function deals really badly with.

      If I am just trying something out, and I don't know whether or not I will want to keep it, or how it will fit in with the big picture, I don't want to have to press save and then carefully file it away in a suitable location with a suitable name just so I can turn the computer off or suspend to RAM without worrying that it might not be there next time I look.

      There is a clear need to be able to store work for later purely in the user interface context in which it was created, without forcing the user to perform arbitrary tasks in order to keep it.

    131. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Changing a static ip on Windows is 2 clicks away?

    132. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      I can tell you the 13" MacBook Pro, as well as the Airs most certainly lack a delete key.

    133. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      This: Leaves. There are "directory" trees, so the "folders" should simply be called leaves. Because everybody knows what a tree ... oh, wait.

    134. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      As one designer I follow thinks, we need to get rid of the idea of "Save" altogether, and just have some sort of "Undo everything I did in this whole entire session" button.

      And that is why I firmly believe that anyone hiring UI designers is an idiot. They take everything that works perfectly fine, and they turn it into unusable crap based on a belief that it would increase effectiveness, but backed by absolutely no evidence.

      Construction workers don't "save" a building while they're working. Your changes are effective as soon as you make them.

      Mechanical typewriters don't "save" documents. The changes are effective as soon as you type them. You can backspace using the eraser tape. And it still sucks. Computers have made typing documents better. The concept of saving something was introduced with computers, and it made things better.

      Yes, you should be automatically saving everything in the background. On a file to be recovered in case your computer shuts down on you. It shouldn't save the file you are working on.

    135. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Requiring a second button press doesn't prevent accidents at all. Even requiring confirmation - as Windows (and probably every other OS) does, and which is much more secure - still isn't a 100% guarantee.

    136. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by painandgreed · · Score: 2

      Macs don't have delete keys.

      Wrong. Macs don't have Backspace keys.

    137. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish I had mod points, even if you are already +5, I actually laughed out loud.

    138. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Look at your picture again. Notice the key in the upper left under the power button?

    139. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      What? I can't say I've typed anything beyond short sentences on a MacBook, but I'm sure the backspace key is there and in fact works as a backspace key.

    140. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Sorry should have been upper right, typo.

    141. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jbolden · · Score: 1

      open -a vlc.app

      worked fine for me.

    142. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right click, add new Toolbar.

      http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-7/add-the-quick-launch-bar-to-the-taskbar-in-windows-7/

      This tutorial seems to be hard up on using the IE Quicklaunch folder for some reason, but you don't have to. Any folder will do, and anything in said folder will appear as an icon, provided. I throw mine in My Documents/QuickLaunch, just for easy access.

      This is pretty much the same for XP and Vista.

    143. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I use OSX the idea is to move towards a situation where application state can be completely controlled by the OS. From the end user's perspective all their applications are always running and preserving what they were doing. There is no difference from a naive perspective between closing and hiding an application which means the OS can make that choice safely.

      It already is pretty amazing.

    144. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Horatio_Hellpop · · Score: 1

      Yah. It's a backspace key. Above that is "eject" .... there's no "delete" key.

      --
      Frammin' on the jim-jam, frippin' at the krotz!
    145. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're basically comparing an old pc running XP to the latest OSX and then you conclude that Windows sucks. Gotcha.

    146. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      right up until it proposed Windows 8's mixed-up hash of an attempt to bolt a tablet UI and a desktop UI together as a superior alternative.

      They weren't talking about Win8 two-faced nature. They were rather specifically talking about Metro and Metro only. Classic Windows deskop is obviously not "anti-skeuomorphic".

    147. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by narcc · · Score: 1

      actual users criticize design of the majority of systems they use, wondering why they can't be more like IOS or the experience of using a Mac

      No, they're not.

      Despite the meme, it's pretty obvious to everyone with a clue that Apple fails at usability.

    148. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got the sh*ts when gmail took the lines off the sides of the rubbish bin icon for deleting emails. Its very similar to whatever the hell icon is next to it (move?), and requires me to actually peer at them to decide which one to click. When it had the lines up the sides to make it look more like a rubbish bin, i could see instantly. I mean if they want to change it then change it to something better, not make it less. I think cleaning up icons (so they all look alike!) is bloody stupid. Its like the designers never learned what the PURPOSE of an icon is, which is to make things easier. Microsoft's win8 boringfest puts me off already. If i want squares with nothing i can draw some myself. I'd prefer something immediately understandable and if possible, aesthetically breathtaking.

    149. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ReWoP · · Score: 0

      exactely.... who the fuck cares what Hugh Pickens has to say about anything,,who the fuck is he anyways? probably some tard who had fuck all else to do today .....

    150. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And would that icon be an 80's brick cell phone, or an iPhone -- which looks like a rounded rectangle?

    151. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by fatphil · · Score: 1

      I too think this article's a bit fake. I don't believe that there are more boobs being made in Mac software UI design than at any point in the past 15 years.
      e.g. This review first appeared in the UI hall of shame in 1999:
      http://web.archive.org/web/20020601171751/http://www.iarchitect.com/qtime.htm
      It describes exactly the problem that this story seems to be focussing on, namely attempting to look like something you are not, but which users are familiar with in the real world.

      This isn' supposed to be a blanket anti-Mac rant. I happily admit that back further still, when everything in the world was a bit clunky, then Mac stood out as being significantly better in many respects. That's in part correlated with there still being some elements of Jef Raskin in their designs, not that he was always right about everything by any means.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    152. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Goat+of+Death · · Score: 1

      (damn damn desaturated buttons in Lion)

      This! I fucking abhor those buttons. What a useless backwards change that makes it harder to distinguish the things you care about. I've gotten mostly used to it. But it doesn't change the fact it was a very poor change on their part.

    153. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Don't forget throwing in the Zune and Xbox 360 UIs in for good measure. Complete with mystery meat navigation wait I have to hover off to the right to get bar to pop up to do stuff. How intuitive is that you can't even see it.

      Safari does that too on inactive tabs, you have to hover over it to find the 'close' button.

    154. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How simple does it need to be? If you're looking for control panel then start typing 'control panel', but retards like you just wanna futz around looking for shit even. What's your solution?

    155. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure rm doesn't work in Windows either.

      Of course it does, open up Powershell.

    156. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      You are mixing up the DEL key with the BACKSPACE key, Mac Laptops only have BACKSPACE (you get DEL via alt-BACKSPACE)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    157. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jbolden · · Score: 2

      That's what its called on Mac. There is no PC style delete which deletes in front of the cursor:

      http://www.technobuffalo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Keyboard.jpg

    158. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone that can call Apple hardware 'clean simple' obviously has no idea how Apple hardware or operating systems work.

      ACPI, UEFI, SMC, plist XML ... these are not clean or simple.

    159. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by exomondo · · Score: 1

      On OS X, System Preference (Mac version of control panel) is "one-click" away, just click once on the Apple icon on the upper right hand corner of your screen and there is there you have the System Preference.

      Well then that's the same as Windows, click the Start Menu and there it is, Control Panel. To open System Preferences on OSX or Control Panel on Windows is 2 clicks.

    160. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by garaged · · Score: 1

      Man, I am a linux guy for more than a decade and I cannot find a damn thing in gnome! They did a great job making dificult to do the most basic tasks, as changing desktops or finding a particular opened terminal between desktops

      --
      I'm positive, don't belive me look at my karma
    161. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should I have to take my hand off my mouse in order to launch a configuration tool that which is nothing by check boxes, radio buttons and drop lists?

    162. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by fatphil · · Score: 1

      > Objects IRL like a whiteboard/todo list/grocery list on your fridge don't need to be saved.

      Objects IRL like whiteboard/todo list/grocery lists on your fridge don't have the concept of simply immediately undoing the changes since you were last happy with what you had. Humans are impoerfect and fickle, and will begin on something they think it's good, and then just want to scrap what they've done. Computers should there to support humans in what they do, no impose rules over how they can do things. Why do you, or your designer friend, want to limit the computer to the pitifully feeble constraints that tangible objects IRL are limited by?

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    163. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by fatphil · · Score: 1

      """
      The main reason I don't use Linux is basically the same. I started to use unix in 1987 ... I know what a cron tab is or what most other configuration files are for. But changing one, seeing it works (after restarting a demon or what ever) and realising after the next reboot everything is gone because you are supposed to use super duper configuration tool XYZ which overwrites the config files on startup gave me to many gray hairs :)
      """

      But what you've described there is OSX. There may be some wanky Linux distros that try to emulate that behaviour, but there are plenty that don't. Everything I want to tweak in Debian I do by editing a text file (which gives me the ability to do very easy version control, for example). If you want to avoid grey hairs, avoid things trying to be like OSX.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    164. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Compaqt · · Score: 2

      For me, having a calendar icon is not "skeuomorphic".

      Skeuomorphic is if you've got (a representation of) vinyl records on a shelf, and you're supposed to pick them out with a mouse, and place them on an RCA record player, and then pick up and place the needle on the record. Which is basically nuts.

      On the other hand, there's no problem at all having old-style icons. I mean, as you so wonderfully parodied, what are they supposed to be? An iPhone?

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    165. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      How about "file"? Or better yet, label the god damned thing directly. It was a really, really stupid design and should be changed.

    166. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      Getting Apple involved "somehow"? You're f'king kidding me, right, or did you just miss that this whole entire recent debate about 'doing away with save' and saving continually is driven entirely by recent changes to OS X? I didn't bring Apple into it, the previous poster effectively did. And your post has three logical fallacies packed into it.

    167. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      Here, this is if you want to catch up to the debate:

      http://macperformanceguide.com/MountainLion-SaveAs-data-destruction.html

    168. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by anerki · · Score: 2

      The small keyboard on the Mac doesn't. Though it has a backspace which turns into delete if you press the 'fn' key (bottom left corner)

      The extended (only real proper) keyboards have a del key nps there.

      You're getting your info from your pre-2000 Mac keyboard?

      --
      Life is great! (as told by Lady Susan)
    169. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      On OSX you can do both, just edit the config file, but also use the build in UI tools. But likely that is not true for everything (I'm mainkly a user, more than setting up a small network behind a nat I never needed to do).

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    170. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Dalar_ca · · Score: 1

      Yes, they do, it's where the Backspace key is on a PC. To get the same function as a 'delete' key, if you've got a "short" Mac keyboard, hold Fn+Delete, same thing. The "long" (PC style) Mac keyboards have the PC-style delete key.

    171. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by travisbean · · Score: 1

      Well, thats the odd part... Johny Ive is making the Miesan/MUJI equivalent of a device (steel, glass) and then you've got Forestall making the Hutton Wilkinson or Restoration Hardware equivalent of a UI... no matter what your take on skeuomorphism is it's not "offset" in incongruous. The industrial design is all about the honesty of materials and the UI is about facade.

    172. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by overmod · · Score: 1

      I used to joke "it's skeuo to you" for those situations where 'paradigm-shifting' elements... remember when the Apple 'desktop' paradigm was new... become the stock 'familiar' items and icons that 'bold new theory' designs feel they have to break away from.

      I left the Gnome project precisely because of the then-emphasis on kewl mystery-meat navigation over clear and sensible defaults.

      A proper UI will allow you to customize anything to your liking, and automatically adjust the help system and manpages to tell you how your 'customized' system works. Want everything to appear only when you click the little Moon accelerator pedal, or the little Praetorian pi in the corner of the screen? Fine -- JUST DON'T GO CALLING IT THE DEFAULT.

      Apple spent all that money back in the '80s figuring out how 'normal' people actually found a graphical UI convenient. They understood the idea -- groundbreaking at the time -- that 15 minutes of nerdy stuff would empower you to run ANY software that would be written on that system in the future. (I should also remind, gently, that DWIM was something actually instantiated by DEC around 1970, and it STILL seems to be missing, at least in effective or truly useful application, in most contemporary stuff... and yes, I include an awful lot of Siri activity in that comment...)

      Now the UI seems to be following the lead of old word-processing programs, with more from the firehose being better and better, or less being... well, if you're not in the know, you're not kewl enough to be at the cutting edge anyway. Pity.

    173. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by retchdog · · Score: 1

      it took me embarrassingly long to find this command, but i love it now. it just makes so much sense to have an opening command with its own features.

      you can do "open -f" to open the stdin in the system default editor (e.g. ps aux | open -f); you can do "open -R foo" to open (in the gui) the closest directory containing foo (foo of course can be "."), you can use "-g" to run something in the background, and perhaps most importantly you can use "-n" to get around mac os's silly "only one instance of an app allowed at a time"-rule.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    174. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Backspace in Windows goes up a level in the filesystem tree.

      Delete deletes a file.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    175. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole "copy/paste" of files is a pet peeve of mine.

      Text? Sure, but files? It's like saying I should be able to copy-paste a car. If you want to move a file, drag it between the relevant windows or use a command.

      But more annoying is the way that Excel treats copy/paste differently from every other application on the planet. If you copy a cell and then his escape, or do anything else that puts it out of its "copy mode", then the clipboard is suddenly empty, and subsequent "paste" commands won't work. This doesn't even happen in other Microsoft applications, much less 3rd party apps and other operating systems.

    176. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Agreed it is very good. I didn't know about some of those switches but I just "man open" and got a ton of new ones. The OSX command line has gotten very good. When I first started with OSX (10.1) there wasn't good support for lots of HFS features so you had to careful with even basic things like copying.

    177. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Yes, your intuition does tend to get damaged when the only way to your data is to climb in and out of windows.

    178. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Microsoft lovers blame the user, lol.

    179. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To make it more difficult to accidentally delete something.

      Or, if you're more linguistically inclined, because the connotations of the word "Backspace" are more text oriented, while delete is more generic. So, if you press Command+Backspace, you are obviously trying to command the computer to do something, and that is the logical thing to do at that point if a file (or whatever) is selected.

    180. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think what he really wants is some sort of periodic background auto save with force save on quit plus an automatic versioning system like automatic git or the old vms versioning system.

      I'd like these ui articles better if they'd re-skin some apps with a before and after instead of randomly whining .

      Metro is a horrible ui.

    181. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      What? I can't say I've typed anything beyond short sentences on a MacBook, but I'm sure the backspace key is there and in fact works as a backspace key.

      Read what is printed on that backspace key, it will mostly likely say the same thing that it says on my MacBook and all my Mac keyboards: "delete".

      Ran into that one while working on phone tech support. They gave me a Mac and I was doing support for an application problem on a PC. Giving them exact instructions, I said to hit the "delete" key, which is a totally different key and purpose than a PC keyboard which is labeled "backspace". Luckily, it was during training that I ran across that. The delete key being named "Del" on an extended Apple keyboard. (However, looking at images, it looked like some of the newer metal keyboards drop the "delete" for an arrow on the backspace key.)

    182. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      I'm relatively sure the backspace key is labeled similarly to an IBM PC keyboard (for lack of a better definition) in the 2010 13" MacBook Pro and the late 2011 13" MacBook Air

    183. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Clsid · · Score: 1

      If clutter is in your book fine. I was expecting you would say something like XFCE. KDE is just a lot of clutter thrown to your face. It is not easier to use than Windows but you have my sympathies for standing up for free software.

    184. Re:"a number of user interface designers" by Clsid · · Score: 1

      "I find whenever I'm on a mac I can't find shit, spending 20 minutes trying to find it, and usually end up having to open up terminal to make a change because I know linux/unix systems significantly better."

      It's not my problem you don't remember what you write.

  2. Skeu by CheShACat · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://skeu.it/ has some cracking examples and a good bit of snark to boot.

    1. Re:Skeu by SquarePixel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, I found some of the webpages in the pics very well done. Let's take for example the burger menu webpage. It's simple, elegant and probably the best done choose what items you want on a burger, just because it's so simple.

    2. Re:Skeu by somersault · · Score: 1

      Some of them are okay, but the one with the clipboard sewn into a hardwood floor is pretty hilarious :)

      --
      which is totally what she said
    3. Re:Skeu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except there's no real intuition or reason for the clip board design. It seems in the effort to make the thing, the designers made it overly complicated as page makes my CPU spike as it loads. The design is incoherent as well, as it uses a custom back button on a piece of paper peeking out from the clip board. The clip board changes sizes depending on the content contained therein. Finally there is no logical connection I personally have with a clipboard and ordering a hamburger. Skeumorphism is supposed to enhance the interface by allowing connections to real-world objects. Tho me any probably many other people, this is just needless eye candy, and that's the problem with skeumorphism.

    4. Re:Skeu by sandy007 · · Score: 1

      yes!

      --
      Although again sweet candy, also has a bitter day.,Zapatillas Nike Air Max.
    5. Re:Skeu by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      Actually, I found some of the webpages in the pics very well done. Let's take for example the burger menu webpage. It's simple, elegant and probably the best done choose what items you want on a burger, just because it's so simple.

      I always liked the new online order system for Dominos Pizza. They have a picture of a pizza in the middle, and pictures of the toppings on the sides (meats on the left, veggies on the right, crust and sauce options below IIRC) and as you select toppings it shows them being added to the pizza. That would be pretty cool to see with a burger...although the system shown here was probably quicker to develop.

    6. Re:Skeu by flimflammer · · Score: 1

      Some of those examples appear fine. He seems to have a personal seething hatred for anything that dares use a leather texture in any way, no matter how small or mundane it may be used for (i.e. background for a website toolbar: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5o6xzVsVT1royiqyo1_500.png) I might not personally enjoy leather but this harmless example just puzzles my mind.

      Perhaps he would prefer a blue gradient here instead with some shine?

    7. Re:Skeu by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that burger one is excellent. This anti-skeuo "movement" is just a childish and cultish form of elitism. I'd love to see that burger one done in a Win8 Metro style - garish green background with a few large squares - it would be ugly as hell.

    8. Re:Skeu by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      http://skeu.it/ has some cracking examples and a good bit of snark to boot.

      Thank you. That site made my day. This one is a true gem - "who cares whether it's hard to read the labels on the "buttons", or if the objects on which the labels were put have fuck all to do with the function of the button, it's so cool and pretty to make the "Everyone" button a water bottle and the "Debuts" button a pair of sneakers and..." There's also "This only makes sense if the app ACTUALLY CONTROLS THE WEATHER".

    9. Re:Skeu by polymeris · · Score: 1

      Some good stuff there. The worst offenders, though, still are VST plugin developers.

  3. Apple patented bad design too by gelfling · · Score: 4, Funny

    Silence, citizen or Apple will send its flying monkeys to sue you.,

    1. Re:Apple patented bad design too by Zimluura · · Score: 3, Insightful

      with all the patent litigation, slashdot should really get a rotten apple picture for these stories.

    2. Re:Apple patented bad design too by Type44Q · · Score: 3, Funny

      Silence, citizen or Apple will send its flying monkeys to sue you

      My eyes are still a little fuzzy from sleep and that looked like it said ..."Apple will send its flying monkeys to use you..."

    3. Re:Apple patented bad design too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you do not defend your patents in court, they become invalid

      That's trademarks.

    4. Re:Apple patented bad design too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Things like this are why the US needs a blasphemy law

    5. Re:Apple patented bad design too by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      After all, if you do not defend your patents in court, they become invalid

      No. No they don't. You're confusing patents with trademarks.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    6. Re:Apple patented bad design too by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I reject your suggestion as pointless skeuomorphism. Some readers have never seen a real-life apple rotting (you insensitive clod).

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    7. Re:Apple patented bad design too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the Apple God died a while back. Now that the veil is lifting, His disciples are no longer cowed into proclaiming His judgement as great.

    8. Re:Apple patented bad design too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silence, citizen or Apple will send its flying monkeys to sue you

      My eyes are still a little fuzzy from sleep and that looked like it said ..."Apple will send its flying monkeys to use you..."

      Same thing.

  4. Metro? by Kagetsuki · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I agree with the point that using faux object representations is cheap, wastes space, and can be lost on people for sure. But to go for Metro as an example of good design? Sorry, I'd take cheap wood and leather graphics with gradient overlays and shadow underlays any day of the week over that.

    1. Re:Metro? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree, it's like there's only fucking extremes, in everthing from UI design to the political arena. Damn you dirty apes, the Universe is full of moderate compromises -- Existence is a middle-ground! You can't just bounce back and forth between stop and full throttle -- No one will ever give you a warp drive at this rate!

    2. Re:Metro? by Xest · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I've not really played with Windows 8 much yet but I installed Visual Studio the other day and my first question was, why the flying fuck are the menus shouting at me in capital letters? Who ever thought that was a good idea and looked good or somehow improved the user experience?

      The icons etc. look awful, the solution explorer which previously had nice familiar icons that you could often pick out from the hints of colour on them are now bold black lined pieces of fairly nonsensical shit.

      It's like such a step back, it's like an interface from the 80s. It's fucking horrible, if Windows 8 makes the whole damn OS look like this, then no fucking thank you.

    3. Re:Metro? by jittles · · Score: 1

      The skeuomorphism is mostly on in the iOS environment. I haven't seen any examples of it in Lion, perhaps there are some in Mountain Lion, I don't know. But either way, I think it is valid to compare Metro on a mobile device to iOS. I would certainly not want it on a computer, but I have played around with Windows 7+ phones and I think their tiles are quite handy for some things. Not to mention the fact that we're already to iOS 6 and we don't have widgets. I really love widgets. I had to jailbreak my phone and iPad for work so that I could get widgets. Sad world.

    4. Re:Metro? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      I think these are opinions in taste more than anything else. A calendar has leather cover. So what? It it was bland and gray, is there a huge problem in how the user interacts with it?

      Yes, Metro is more minimalistic, but I think that MS went too far in that functionality is missing. For example, there are few visual clues in Win 8 at times to let the user know what they should do. On the desktop it's worse as Win 8 was designed more for touch. Like the login screen. You have to pull it down after Win 8 loads. How is a comsumer supposed to know this?

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    5. Re:Metro? by Kagetsuki · · Score: 1

      You have a point about the tiling on mobiles for sure. The thing is I would not say Metro does this well by restricting everything. Besides, why bother with windows phone just for the interface when you can change your home shell on Android? Even just a theme will replicate it, but in a more attractive format if you ask me: http://www.androidng.com/windows-phone-7-android-theme

    6. Re:Metro? by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      The skeuomorphism is mostly on in the iOS environment. I haven't seen any examples of it in Lion,

      You've never used Address Book in Lion? That's what I, at least, consider the worst skeuomorphism in OS X - by trying to make it look like a book, not only does it glop up the aesthetics of the app, it screws up the functionality of the app, by not allowing the 3-pane view earlier versions had (with a pane of all the groups of items you set up, a pane of the contents of the currently selected group, and a pane of the currently selected item), presumably because, well, an actual book can only show you two pages at a time and by, rather than letting you "swipe to turn pages" to switch between "pane of the groups and pane of the contents of the group" and "pane of the contents of the group and pane of the currently selected item", goes arguably un-skeuomorphic by having you switch between them by clicking on a bookmark ribbon the end of which appears at the top of the page, which is truly spectacularly stoopid.

      iCal didn't directly mess up the functionality with its skeuomorphisms, although having the title bar be black on light-brown-leather color it reduced the contrast making it a bit less readable - then again, "let's make the UI less readable by reducing contrast" was a bit of a common theme of Lion....

      perhaps there are some in Mountain Lion, I don't know.

      Mountain Lion undoes the "no 3-pane view" in Address Book (and changes the name to Contacts, raising the question of why it still looks like a book...), but as the first two panes are on the "left-hand page" and the third pane is on the "right-hand page", the third pane is forced to be the same width as the sum of the widths of the first and second pane, even if that makes it wider than it needs to be. It makes no change to the skeuomorphisms of iCal (now named Calendar).

      Rule Number 1 of skeuomorphism - do NOT impose on the object in question the limitations of the imitated object merely to preserve the illusion. Anybody who does that should be banned from doing any further UI design without adult supervision until they demonstrate that they've managed to acquire a clue.

    7. Re:Metro? by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      I think these are opinions in taste more than anything else. A calendar has leather cover. So what? It it was bland and gray,

      No, it was black-on-light gray for the buttons in the title bar, which had a bit more contrast than gray-on-leather-brown, so the buttons were a bit more readable.

      is there a huge problem in how the user interacts with it?

      No, but it is a minor problem (and might be a more major problem for those with eyes even older than mine).

    8. Re:Metro? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Skeumorphs may hamper readability. That is a legitimate complaint. Well no one knows what a Rolodex looks like isn't really one to me.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    9. Re:Metro? by jittles · · Score: 1

      Honestly, no I haven't used the calendar or address book apps on Lion. And why should I? I always have my phone and usually a tablet. I almost always schedule appointments when I am away from home, and I can quickly see what my calendar looks like on my mobile devices. I also find that I pay attention to notifications on my phone more easily than pop-ups by iCal on the computer. Apple doesn't really do notifications well, without Growl, and even if there was a growl notification it would disappear in a moment if I didn't lock it on the screen.

      Just for the sake of curiosity I did load up the address book and you're right it is rather annoying. The right hand page is almost completely wasted. I don't know what they were smoking, but I do believe that the iOS instances are far worse. Especially if you've looked at the way the maps look on iOS6. They remind me of old paper maps from yesteryear. Ugly.

    10. Re:Metro? by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Skeumorphs may hamper readability. That is a legitimate complaint. Well no one knows what a Rolodex looks like isn't really one to me.

      Emulating something with which most of the user base is unfamiliar isn't bad, but it does make the "skeuomorphisms are good because they make people comfortable with the new device" argument rather weak for that particular skeuomorphism. Time and energy spent making a contacts app look like a Rolodex is time and energy not spent adding useful functionality to the app or fixing bugs in the app, so the skeuomorphisms may have to justify their existence with more than "because we can".

    11. Re:Metro? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      VS 2012 is not a Metro app. It's a desktop app that tries to look like Office 2013, and doesn't even do that quite right. None of the things that you're complaining about is Metro-related, anyway.

      Some kind people *ahem* have snucked in a registry key to let you turn all caps in menu off. But please also vote here.

      You can get VS 2012 colors back (or roll your own theme) with this extension.

      Unfortunately, there's no workaround for icons.

    12. Re:Metro? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      gradient overlays and shadow underlays

      I may be misunderstanding what you're referring to, but where did you find any gradient overlays (or, for that matter, gradients in general) or shadow underlays in Metro?

    13. Re:Metro? by Kagetsuki · · Score: 1

      The gradient overlays and shadow underlays are in OSX/iOS interfaces, gradient overlays usually over fake wood or leather to make it look raised and the underlays to make it look like one UI element is sitting over another. Other than the fake wood/leather I actually like this style of UI, it's unobtrusive but gives an artificial 3Desque depth as well as softening some of the edges.

    14. Re:Metro? by Xest · · Score: 1

      Cheers, yeah I understand it's not a metro app specifically but was concerned that this is the new "style" that Metro era stuff is expected to bring. My fault for misusing terminology I guess! Glad to hear this isn't what Metro in general will be like at least!

      I'm amazed VS2012 was released looking like this. Was there really enough positive feedback to justify it? was there a lack of negative feedback?

      People of course always hate change, but this is one of those few times where I think distaste is justified. Simply changing all the commonly understood and recognised icons for a set that all use thick black lines just seems nonsensical.

      Maybe given time I'll get a bit more used to it, but I always figured good user interface design means that I shouldn't have to - it should just feel right from the outset!

      Is the capital letters thing part of Office 2013 too, or is it just VS that's like this? Who thought this was ever going to be a good idea, and why would it need changing after what, 20, going on maybe even 30 years now for this sort of menu?

      Is there any possibility we can have a poll on whether the person behind this vandalisation of the interface can be taken out the back of your offices and shot too?

    15. Re:Metro? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I'm amazed VS2012 was released looking like this. Was there really enough positive feedback to justify it? was there a lack of negative feedback?

      There were loads of negative feedback once the beta with the new theme was out. E.g. this is still the highest-upvoted user feedback item on UserVoice for VS, and you can also go read the comments to the blog post that announced the changes. What you see in RTM is actually better than what was originally there.

      I can assure you that there is also a lot of negative feedback internally, myself included. Several developers have actually posted links to those UV items on their personal blogs to drive votes.

      Is the capital letters thing part of Office 2013 too, or is it just VS that's like this?

      It's there in the public beta of Office 2013. Whether it sticks for release or not is not for me to say. I would hope they'd learn something from our experience.

      It should be noted though that other aspects of their theme are much better, IMO. They also went all in for the flat look, but they didn't convert icons to nearly monochrome - they're flat, but they still use colors, and in more or less the same way they've always been used (e.g. folders are yellow, and save floppy is dark blue). So overall it looks better. Also, for them, the ALL CAPS are used for Ribbon titles, which is not quite the same as main menu - as Ribbon is normally always expanded, and rather heavyweight, those caps don't look overly heavy and imbalancing.

      Is there any possibility we can have a poll on whether the person behind this vandalisation of the interface can be taken out the back of your offices and shot too?

      The closest you can get to that is voting for those two tickets (colors and caps) on UserVoice. I can tell you that a lot of people are watching those closely and getting regular updates on their status.

    16. Re:Metro? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Oh, by the way, apparently someone has made a patch to get the icons back as well - at least some of them.

  5. And designers are never wrong by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We all know that self-described UI designers are never wrong when it comes to making things intuitive and easy to use.

    *cough* *gnome* *cough*

    1. Re:And designers are never wrong by mothlos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, like those awesome sorted grids of icons which make finding that one thing you want dead simple.

      Or those application docks which make it obvious to users how to open a second instance of an open application or switch between multiple open instances.

      Perhaps you were referring to media library organizers which use a completely different set of metaphors and visual cues from the file system and are essentially incompatible making it less difficult when users want to interact with their file browser... somehow.

  6. Easy to prove or disprove by martijnd · · Score: 1, Troll

    The minimalist verses skeuomorphism assertion has been made a few times already. Its quite easy to prove right or wrong.

    Simply design a calender or contact app that follows your new "modern" design methodology.

    If it beats the crap out of Apple's existing app because its so much better that people download it in droves to use it you have won, and you are rich(er).

    1. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      The minimalist verses skeuomorphism assertion has been made a few times already. Its quite easy to prove right or wrong.

      Simply design a calender or contact app that follows your new "modern" design methodology.

      If it beats the crap out of Apple's existing app because its so much better that people download it in droves to use it you have won, and you are rich(er).

      It is an interesting thought experiment but doesn't take the target market into account. The people who prefer good functionality before shiny but useless design isn't likely to use Apple in the first place. It also doesn't factor in that while a modern functional design could have a higher value the difference in value might be less that the time it takes to test a new app.
      All in all i think that the RDF-factor will skew the result of such a test too much to make it meaningful.

    2. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by tmosley · · Score: 1, Troll

      The people who prefer good functionality before shiny but useless design isn't likely to use Apple in the first place.

      Ha. Haha. Hahahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

      Mod parent HILARIOUS.

    3. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by Xest · · Score: 3, Interesting

      One might argue that both Microsoft (Outlook) and Google's calendar and contacts apps do exactly that, and are both much more widely used than Apple's.

    4. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One might argue that not many people *choose* to use Outlook.

    5. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by Xest · · Score: 2

      I was one of those people until I was forced to use Lotus Notes when I changed job and then corporate GMail when I changed jobs again.

      Outlook is shit, until you're forced to use the alternatives.

    6. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by Urza9814 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yea, as a Linux user I never thought I'd be supporting a Microsoft app, but...well, I just started a new job recently that uses Outlook. And I never had much of an opinion on it until reading this...because it's never made me think about it. It's never gotten in my way. Gives me my email and my calendar available in a single glance, everything just works...I've got no complaints.

      Well -- actually I do have one complaint: There's no 'minimize to tray' type function (at least not that I've found) so it's always taking up space on my taskbar...but otherwise, no complaints.

    7. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by flimflammer · · Score: 1

      No kidding! Lotus Notes made me want to beat kittens. I am so glad I'm away from that crap.

    8. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by nmb3000 · · Score: 1

      Well -- actually I do have one complaint: There's no 'minimize to tray' type function (at least not that I've found) so it's always taking up space on my taskbar...but otherwise, no complaints.

      If it's a newer version of Outlook, try right-clicking the tray icon that appears when Outlook is running and select "Hide when minimized". That will minimize it to the tray (though YMMV depending on your Windows 7 taskbar settings).

      If it's an older version, there's a registry setting that controls the behavior instead.

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
    9. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      That is fantastic. Thanks :)

    10. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use Outlook 2010, and it somehow minimizes to tray. I am not sure of what setting will do this.

    11. Re:Easy to prove or disprove by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here. I am a Debian user and have always used Thunderbird. I am using Outlook 2010 at work and I really like it. The only advantage of Thunderbird to Outlook as far as a user goes is if you use GPG; there is no GPG support in Outlook 2010.

  7. So many things to criticize... by TrekkieGod · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So many things to criticize about Apple's UI direction (the tabletization of OS X, for example), and they criticize the thing Apple is doing right.

    People like old fashioned aesthetics. Nobody had a need to use a sundial these days, but many people still decorate their yards with them. Seeing a wood bookshelf with real books stacked looks pretty and people see it as part of Apple's software polish.

    --

    Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

    1. Re:So many things to criticize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This story has been posted before. Regardless, I doubt many users are upset about the appearance of a couple of minor applications. This isn't some widespread problem typical of Apple UI design.

    2. Re:So many things to criticize... by Clsid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I was kind of opposed to the "tabletization" of OS X in the beginning, but now that I have used Mountain Lion for several weeks I have to say that it is a great idea. I enjoy Launchpad and the Notification Center a lot. Notes and Mail that behave exactly like my iPhone is a big plus, especially since Notes are like Evernote but much much faster. I really should mention Mail since I really thought that e-mail clients kind of hit a ceiling and that program proved me wrong. Reminders are ok but nothing spectacular. The deep App Store integration is also a good thing considering that OS X Lion and Mountain Lion breaks a lot of old software, Photoshop included, so when you get something from there you never have to wonder "will it run on my Mac?".

      I think what Apple is doing wrong is breaking application support. I was very annoyed at not being able to use most of my games and a lot of software with the latest releases. I think when Apple was using Rosetta to run PowerPC programs they were doing fine. Once they took that attitude of "update your apps or else", it really made me appreciate all the hard work that Microsoft has done in that sense. I can still run a lot of old stuff in the latest Windows, and even the DOS applications can be run with a bunch of free emulators like DOSBox. There is no way to run an emulated OSX 10.2 or similar that I know of in a Mac.

    3. Re:So many things to criticize... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      people see it as part of Apple's software polish.

      Especially on a touch interface, where you have to make the controls really big anyhow. How the heck are you "wasting space" with all the decorations? I personally prefer a clean look, but then I also buy cars without leather seats - so I don't think my sense of aesthetic lines up with society at-large.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:So many things to criticize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. By their argument, eBooks also shouldn't have covers included because they just take up extra space and aren't needed whereas most people would probably agree that they add to the experience and are much better than plain text showing the title/author.

    5. Re:So many things to criticize... by nine-times · · Score: 1

      So many things to criticize about Apple's UI direction (the tabletization of OS X, for example)

      There's nothing really wrong with the tabletization of OSX. I'm sure the reason they're introducing tablet UI design is they're opening the door to one day having a tablet running a full version of OSX. And it's not like they're forcing you to use Launchpad. If they start doing to OSX what Microsoft is doing in Windows 8, then I'm really going to be annoyed.

    6. Re:So many things to criticize... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I think what Apple is doing wrong is breaking application support. I was very annoyed at not being able to use most of my games and a lot of software with the latest releases.

      Yes. This is what convinced me to move off of OSX, back to Linux.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:So many things to criticize... by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      So many things to criticize about Apple's UI direction (the tabletization of OS X, for example), and they criticize the thing Apple is doing right.

      People like old fashioned aesthetics.

      Some people might like old-fashioned aesthetics in some situations.

      Nobody had a need to use a sundial these days, but many people still decorate their yards with them.

      Yeah, but do they tell time with them?

    8. Re:So many things to criticize... by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      I was kind of opposed to the "tabletization" of OS X in the beginning, but now that I have used Mountain Lion for several weeks I have to say that it is a great idea. I enjoy Launchpad and the Notification Center a lot. Notes and Mail that behave exactly like my iPhone is a big plus,

      ...as is the ability for those of us for whom the Boring Old Layout works better to continue to use the "classic" layout for Mail.

      Notes as a separate app rather than a part of Mail makes sense; it wasn't clear to me why it was part of Mail in the first place.

      I really should mention Mail since I really thought that e-mail clients kind of hit a ceiling and that program proved me wrong.

      For me, it's a bit of a "meh". .Mail looks as if it might be interesting, though.

      There is no way to run an emulated OSX 10.2 or similar that I know of in a Mac.

      You can run Leopard or Snow Leopard Server inside VMware Fusion, but that's a bit costly.

    9. Re:So many things to criticize... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Once they took that attitude of "update your apps or else", it really made me appreciate all the hard work that Microsoft has done in that sense. I can still run a lot of old stuff in the latest Windows, and even the DOS applications can be run with a bunch of free emulators like DOSBox.

      Yes, MS worked mightily to preserve backwards compatibility... too bad they failed so badly. Upgraded from DOS 6.2 to W95, no sound in most of my games (I was into games back then). W95 to XP? FoxPro (MS's own damned program) would no longer work. XP to W7? Fuck it, I didn't even try to make old programs work.

      Now, Linux otoh, I've only been running that for 10 years, but everything that worked in Mandrake still works in kubuntu. And it will run the DOS programs better than Windows with dosbox!

    10. Re:So many things to criticize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some notes:

      >I was kind of opposed to the "tabletization" of OS X in the beginning, but now that I have used Mountain Lion for several weeks I have to say that it is a great idea.

      I was and still am, depending on how you look at it. Bringing new useful features from iOS is welcome. Dumbing down OS X apps to match their tablet brethren is not.

      > I enjoy Launchpad and the Notification Center a lot.

      I haven't used launchpad even once. Neither had my girlfriend, who also has a Mac.

      >Notes and Mail that behave exactly like my iPhone is a big plus, especially since Notes are like Evernote but much much faster.

      Notes I haven't really used on iOS or Mac OS X much to be honest. (I use StickyNotes on OS X).
      Mail in full screen mode has a lot of problems. You can't read a message in one window while writing one in another window (sometimes needed for copy-paste, etc.). When there are errors in sending emails, etc., sometimes the message appears... somewhere where you will never see it (underneath the app?), and a message you think you sent silently never arrives. I could go on... Suffice to say, it feels more limiting than using GMail when in full screen more.

      iPhoto has similar problems, but their dumbing-down stays the same in full-screen mode or not. Right-click on a photo, and half the options are gone now! Luckily, most of them are still in the pull-down menu at the top of the screen.

      >I really should mention Mail since I really thought that e-mail clients kind of hit a ceiling and that program proved me wrong.

      In what way? It's just a mail program. The UI is clean, but it doesn't really let you do anything that other mail programs don't. It has issues, as well. (f.e. I put in a registered my email password for one account, and then later the program asks for it again when it has connection problems. That would be great, except that I might not have that password with me at all times, and the Mail app shouldn't clear it just because it failed to log in once - iOS doesn't).

      >Reminders are ok but nothing spectacular. The deep App Store integration is also a good thing considering that OS X Lion and Mountain Lion breaks a lot of old software, Photoshop included, so when you get something from there you never have to wonder "will it run on my Mac?".

      I'm not sure how "deep" the integration is. Having a real update system and unified billing for commercial apps is nice, but hardly the same as a real package management system.

      As for breaking old software, the main thing I have issues with is XCode. Every single damned time, they REQUIRE a new version of XCode, which, half the time, nukes the old stuff. And any other development apps tend to depend on the XCode installed command-line tools. It's also frustrating to have to install a 5GB package just to get a damned C compiler.

      >I think what Apple is doing wrong is breaking application support. I was very annoyed at not being able to use most of my games and a lot of software with the latest releases. I think when Apple was using Rosetta to run PowerPC programs they were doing fine. Once they took that attitude of "update your apps or else", it really made me appreciate all the hard work that Microsoft has done in that sense.

      Microsoft, on the other hand, doesn't even fix bugs. They maintain quirks in the API because old programs depended on them, etc.

      >I can still run a lot of old stuff in the latest Windows, and even the DOS applications can be run with a bunch of free emulators like DOSBox.

      DOSBox has nothing to do with how Microsoft maintains Windows, though. Modern Windows is based on NT, and does a shitty job of emulating low-level DOS stuff. Even IBM did a much better job with OS/2. In fact, OS/2 Warp could run Windows 3.1 apps better than Windows 95 could. (Because it used the Windows 3.11 DLLs...)

      >There is no way to run an emulated OSX 10.2 or similar that I know of in a Mac.

      Uhm, VMware? PearPC?

    11. Re:So many things to criticize... by Clsid · · Score: 1

      Dude you just made my day with PearPC. Going to try to install it right away. Now where were those Mac recovery CDs?

    12. Re:So many things to criticize... by Clsid · · Score: 1

      I should have said Microsoft starting with Windows 95 or Win32 API. I just finished playing Dark Reign on a Windows 7 64-bit machine, a game which still has the message Return to Windows 95 on the Exit screen. I know not all applications work, but I have had to endure a cold turkey kind of change too often with the Mac. First from PowerPC to Intel, and now just the 64-bit OS breaking a lot of old stuff. At least with Microsoft the major shift was from DOS to Win95.

  8. Too minimalist by jones_supa · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Windows 8 UI is too minimalist. The flat squares look dull and amateurish. The Aero interface has just the right amount of little extra spice here and there.

    1. Re:Too minimalist by Quakeulf · · Score: 1

      Too minimalist? I bet the majority on Slashdot navigate purely by CMI. I know I like my CMI. You don't like CMI? Fine. Have it your way.

    2. Re:Too minimalist by Quakeulf · · Score: 1

      Oooh, massive typo there, I meant CLI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command-line_interface Sorry. :3

    3. Re:Too minimalist by Barefoot+Monkey · · Score: 5, Funny

      Naturally, the trick to doing minimalism right is to use as little of it as possible.

    4. Re:Too minimalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a typo if you say it three times. It's an indication that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

    5. Re:Too minimalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still can't get my head round Microsoft spending so much time and money convincing us that Aero is so amazing that we should go out and buy more powerfull hardware to experience it, then with a wave of the hand give us something that would have looked clunky on Windows 1.0.

    6. Re:Too minimalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you meant CMI: Command Mime Interface. It's the Kinect version.

    7. Re:Too minimalist by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      It's not just for beauty's sake. When thing's look that flat, it becomes harder to distinguish one window from another, or the outline of a given window.

      In the example below, everything looks washed out and bleached (like a broken monitor). The white drag bar section of the window matches the white background of the directory listing, which would make it less easy to quickly drag a window. Likewise the location or search box is also white, providing little contrast to the elements:
      http://winsource.com/2012/05/21/aero-glass-dropped-for-windows-8/

      Contrast and bevels are always a good thing, and Aero, though not perfect, is a heck of a lot better. Personally, I think a light grey (or even mid-grey) background is a very under-used component of UI design. It almost reminds me of the loudness wars, where everyone is trying to get as bright/loud as possible at the expense of distortion/clipping (even the text in many websites is becoming whiter, soon we'll be at #f0f0f0 colour font on an #ffffff backdrop - it's ridiculous).

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    8. Re:Too minimalist by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      Perhaps if you made better use of your GMI, I mean GUI...

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    9. Re:Too minimalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, it reminds me of AOL 1.0.

    10. Re:Too minimalist by MadKeithV · · Score: 1

      I've been using that for years. I give Windows the finger daily.

    11. Re:Too minimalist by alfredo · · Score: 1

      My first thought was IceWM.

      --
      photosMy Photostream
    12. Re:Too minimalist by recoiledsnake · · Score: 1

      I love Slashdot posts and the moderation. When Aero was new, Slashdot was railing against Aero. And now Metro. Same with hating on XP and 7 when they were new, but then later actually talking about stocking up more copies of XP and 7 when the next versions came out just to make sure. If it wasn't so predictable every time, it would not be so boring and trite.

      --
      This space for rent.
    13. Re:Too minimalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Bevels, drop shadows, and gradients have practical purposes and are not simply skeuomorphic.

  9. What the fuck is it with the fluff? by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Really? There's so much to criticize about Apple's design, like OSX's big and cluttered dock versus a tradicional taskbar, and they go straight for the superfluous fluff? Who cares about the icons? They are just fucking icons, replace them if you want to! What the hell happened to functionality in this world? It's like no one cares anymore, and "design" only means "making shit look fancy".

    1. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by Lumpy · · Score: 1, Troll

      You think the dock is cluttered but the Windows task-bar is the epitome of awesome? what drugs are you taking? The Windows and all linux variants of the taskbar is a cluster turd of clutter. Yes the Dock is cluttered a bit, but no where near as cluttered as the mess that windows and Linux has going on.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 2

      Not the point I was trying to argue, but ok: first of all, the dock isn't just a Mac issue. Since Windows 7 the taskbar has been "dockified", with pinned, textless icons (though it's easy to revert it to a more classic mode) and Linux has had all sorts of docks and taskbars for quite some time, now. My opinion isn't about OSs, it's mainly about docks. It just happens that OSX has not a lot of options other than its main dock, which leads me to explain my point of view: the taskbar is more useful because it conveys more information (like what document is open in a particular instance of a program), text is easier to read than icons, it takes less vertical space while still being visible and accessible, can comfortably host menus and widgets... I could go on with my particular point of view, but my point was, and still is, that such sort of difference is much more important than if the book icon features leather bindings or not.

    3. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by tmosley · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the dock is customizable by click and drag, right? It isn't exactly rocket science.

    4. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      but no where near as cluttered as the mess that ... Linux has going on.

      Linux has everything from "cluttered mess" to ratpoison which is about the most minimalist "desktop" you could have.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 2

      Really? There's so much to criticize about Apple's design, like OSX's big and cluttered dock versus a tradicional taskbar,

      You mean the traditional dock from NeXTSTEP versus the imitation from Windows?

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    6. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by Brian+Feldman · · Score: 1

      Every single one of them is exactly as cluttered as the programs/shortcuts you put/leave on there. If you consider the stuff you have left on your taskbar other than running programs clutter, then remove or hide them. Remove taskbar applets you don't want. Hide notification icons. Taskbars are all configurable and pretty equivalent these days.

      --
      Brian Fundakowski Feldman
    7. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      If you don't like the Mac Os X dock, download a different one.
      There are plenty. I'm a bit tired of this "you are helpless walled in" mentality. Most stuff on the Mac can be hacked, illconfigured, changed, upgraded or replaced by alternatives just like on any other *nix system. If you know how to google you find replacements or plugins for everything. And very often for free or minimal fees.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    8. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Until I can put my (Applications/Program Files) on any task bar and get to apps (not just ones with special extra shortcut in 'Programs') with one click like you can on OS X, all task bars are shit.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    9. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by beanpoppa · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I did that. Silly me, thinking I was dragging a shortcut. Pissed off our Mac admin when it turned out that by dragging the icons to groups, I was actually dragging the .app, so other users logging into the same Mac had a lot of "?" icons because they could no longer find the .app

    10. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by Rhipf · · Score: 1

      Not sure if I'm understanding what your saying but in Windows you can pin any program to the taskbar/start menu. Just find the exe file, right click and select "Pin to ..."

    11. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's not it.

      In OS X, I can put the Applications folder on the dock, and navigate through ALL of the apps/sub-folders. One click.
      Same for Documents folder. Once click access to EVERY document in there, in any folder.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    12. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like the NextStep dock. That's why on OS X I put the dock on the left or right rather than the bottom. Vertical space is at a premium. NextStep had it right, default OS X, not so much (but it does look more glitzy). At least the default can be changed.

      I just wish I had the NextStep menus back :-(

    13. Re:What the fuck is it with the fluff? by tmosley · · Score: 1

      That's not how the dock works, troll boy.

  10. The debate is moot. by imagined.by · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously, as a designer myself I can only shake my head when I read stuff like this.

    It may be true that "traditional visual metaphors no longer translate to modern users", but what about older users? Should we just dismiss their needs? Are interfaces really encumbered because they feature a wood-textured background?

    Also, I challenge you to come up with a symbol for saving files without using a diskette or something like that. These symbols have transpired from metaphors of real objects to metaphors of actions, and people who have never even seen a diskette learn their purpose by context. Granted, this creates a certain standard by convention, and you could argue that any symbol could be used for that. But again, that would dismiss the users who grew up with that symbol. Currently, everybody is happy, why challenge this?

    Imho, articles like this and blogs like skeu.it are just cleverly-disguised marketing by Microsoft. Ask any designer, and they'll tell you that well-used skeuomorphisms are not problematic, but even necessary to reach most of your target audience.

    1. Re:The debate is moot. by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 2

      Should we just dismiss their needs?

      'Need' is quite an interesting term to use when discussing faux leather stitching on a calendar app.

      Of course, I disagree with this UI designer as I think it is important to provide visual clues in an icon that denotes its purpose/function. If it helps people realize that the icon with a Month and the number 31 is a calendar, well, then it does serve a purpose.

      I'm not knocking you, I just thought the concept of considering older person's needs when referring to this topic was just an amusing phrase.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    2. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Clever design by Microsoft? I would rather attribute it to hipsters who have discovered a new word.

      "NetHack - now bringing you procedurally generated levels!"

    3. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      challenge accepted: a downward pointing arrow which is already a common enough metaphor for "download" and to todays users there's not a lot of difference between downloading something and saving it.

      It might not work for your users, and it might not work for apple users - but it would seem it does work for some people already, and probably makes a lot more sense than those black (sometimes blue) square which no one under the age of 30 has seen, much less used. To argue the diskettes relevance as a metaphor for 'save' makes a much sense as using a tape-reel icon for backups!

    4. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, I challenge you to come up with a symbol for saving files without using a diskette or something like that. These symbols have transpired from metaphors of real objects to metaphors of actions, and people who have never even seen a diskette learn their purpose by context. Granted, this creates a certain standard by convention, and you could argue that any symbol could be used for that. But again, that would dismiss the users who grew up with that symbol. Currently, everybody is happy, why challenge this?

      I'm not sure if I should admit this publicly, so I'm posting anonymously.

      The ubiquitous "floppy disk" graphic for Open and "folder" graphic for Save is something I only grokked consciously early this year.

      I've been using computers in one form or another since the early 1980s, and I got used to seeing a seemingly random spray of icons in toolbars that I filtered them out for decades, and instead learned keyboard shortcuts for load/save. What's wrong with the text "OPEN" and "SAVE"?. This is one of the reasons I could never use a Mac, I'd get too frustrated with a screen full of dozens of icons I'd have to reinterpret the meaning of.

      Apple really have something to answer for, and whichever of their employees first picked two randomly filesystem related icons to mean only sideways related specific tasks should be shot.

    5. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Also, I challenge you to come up with a symbol for saving files without using a diskette or something like that.

      an icon with two red parallel upright rectangles slightly spaced apart from each other, a.k.a. the record icon

    6. Re:The debate is moot. by imagined.by · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Fair point, the use of the word need seems misplaced. English is not my native tongue ;) What I wanted to express is the following.

      I handed my 83yr old , technical-illiterate grandma an iPad and she was able to use most of the apps because they resembled physical devices she knew.

      Of course she doesn't "need" to use a digital calendar, or even an iPad. But that device and ample use of skeuomorphisms are enabling her to participate in a lot of places which were inaccessible for her before. It makes a lot of people feel familiar with usually (for them) almost frightening devices.

      This is empowerment, and as long as nobody else is hindered I think the debate is quite pointless.

    7. Re:The debate is moot. by imagined.by · · Score: 2

      Using a symbol which is widely accepted for another mechanism doesn't work: It introduces ambiguity which is very undesirable.

      For me personally, I don't even want symbols. I'm perfectly fine with text. However, that's not how most people work, unfortunately.

    8. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, I challenge you to come up with a symbol for saving files without using a diskette or something like that.

      My game's level editor uses an arrow shaped stream of 1's and 0's flowing from miniature editing grid and entering a block of frozen 1's and 0's for save map. A larger 1's and 0's block is also the icon for data files. A small level wireframe on the block denotes it's a map data object. Loading has the arrow / stream of 1's and 0's flowing the opposite direction. For models there's a (re)materializing humanoid figure instead of the map grids. For saving / loading text files there's a text cursor and mock document with some bold in a few places -- For game code / scripts there's curly brackets and the mock document has syntax highlighted words. For the spreadsheet data, there's a damn mini table. If you can't think of a proper graphical representation of the action, you should fucking hire a real designer.

      What about the "Old Users", eh? What the fuck is that about? They've been through some MIGHTY changes in their lifetimes, from radios with knobs and TVs with dials to light switches with dimmer sliders and push button seek for radio tuning. They've adjusted fine. Grandma's not up at the screen trying to figure out where the fucking tuning dial is -- She hits the channel up and down or punches in the numbers like everyone else. Fucking twits like you ought to try getting old for a change. I bet you your social security you're already more retarded than the imaginary folks you're pandering too.

    9. Re:The debate is moot. by imagined.by · · Score: 1

      Some people work better with symbols, which is why they were introduced. They're language-agnostic devices which enable more people to use your hard- or software.

      Oh and btw, maybe you mixed it up, but the floppy disk translates to saving and the folder to opening ;)

    10. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Less than 50, mostly pro-Apple, and we're supposed to take you more seriously? Puh-leeze.

    11. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      challenge accepted: a downward pointing arrow which is already a common enough metaphor for "download" and to todays users there's not a lot of difference between downloading something and saving it.

      It might not work for your users, and it might not work for apple users - but it would seem it does work for some people already, and probably makes a lot more sense than those black (sometimes blue) square which no one under the age of 30 has seen, much less used. To argue the diskettes relevance as a metaphor for 'save' makes a much sense as using a tape-reel icon for backups!

      What if you're saving your document to the cloud? I don't think a downward facing arrow would make much sense in that case. Maybe a diskette icon isn't any better in that case either, but I think its not as simple as you might think.

    12. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, I challenge you to come up with a symbol for saving files without using a diskette or something like that.

      an icon with two red parallel upright rectangles slightly spaced apart from each other, a.k.a. the record icon

      I thought record was a red circle? Isn't two parallel rectangles the pause icon? Although I seriously love the idea that saving your work is metaphorically equivalent to pausing your VCR or tivo or whatever. I'm not being sarcastic, I think its a brilliant idea in terms of alternate metaphors for common things.

    13. Re:The debate is moot. by Hamsterdan · · Score: 1

      Hint: that's the 'pause' icon...

      --
      I've got better things to do tonight than die.
    14. Re:The debate is moot. by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      challenge accepted: a downward pointing arrow which is already a common enough metaphor for "download" and to todays users there's not a lot of difference between downloading something and saving it.

      Sure and saving to "the cloud" should be denoted by...?

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    15. Re:The debate is moot. by fostware · · Score: 1

      Also, I challenge you to come up with a symbol for saving files without using a diskette or something like that. These symbols have transpired from metaphors of real objects to metaphors of actions, and people who have never even seen a diskette learn their purpose by context. Granted, this creates a certain standard by convention, and you could argue that any symbol could be used for that. But again, that would dismiss the users who grew up with that symbol. Currently, everybody is happy, why challenge this?

      Tell that to Apple's lawyers re Samsung's phone dock :P

      --
      "We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over." - Aneurin Bevan
    16. Re:The debate is moot. by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if I should admit this publicly, so I'm posting anonymously.

      The ubiquitous "floppy disk" graphic for Open and "folder" graphic for Save is something I only grokked consciously early this year.

      I've been using computers in one form or another since the early 1980s, and I got used to seeing a seemingly random spray of icons in toolbars that I filtered them out for decades, and instead learned keyboard shortcuts for load/save. What's wrong with the text "OPEN" and "SAVE"?.

      Errm, so you have never actually seen a Macintosh even from afar, have you.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    17. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but regular users are not saving "to the cloud" or "to the harddrive" - they are saving to "My documents" (or more frequently in my experience - Desktop) and that location is already abstracted away at the OS level

    18. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      While I agree symbols shouldn't be made ambiguous by inconsistent use, I don't agree that most users realise/care that they are in fact seeing different mechanisms in action. Regardless as per the rest of your post you yourself consider the diskette a mere symbol which implies that it doesn't have any inherent meaning even in your eyes, and as such it's only an arbitrary symbol with a socially constructed understanding. And as soon as you're back to teaching your users what symbols mean any positive effects you gained by using symbols in the first place are void.

      I guess what I want to say here is that 1) In my opinion we are seeing a generation shift which makes previous assumptions of how symbolic representation of everyday artefacts can be integrated into GUI's irrelevant. 2) Text only is the most stable representation as language drifts considerably slower than the artefacts we surround us with.

    19. Re:The debate is moot. by Logic+and+Reason · · Score: 1

      ...what about older users? Should we just dismiss their needs?

      If their "needs" are to have every app look and behave exactly like some obsolete physical object, then frankly yes. Old people are not incapable of learning or adapting, and they've already had to do just that for many years now.

      Are interfaces really encumbered because they feature a wood-textured background?

      Bit of a strawman, there. When Apple revamped the Address Book app for Lion, they made it into a "book". Gee, sure looks nice! But suddenly you couldn't use the old three-pane view (which showed more information and was just better at navigating many contacts) because it didn't fit into the "book" metaphor. Not only that, but being a "book" implies lots of things that you couldn't actually do with Address Book. As John Siracusa wrote in his Lion review:

      Address Book goes so far in the direction of imitating a physical analog that it starts to impair the identification of standard controls. The window widgets, for example, are so integrated into the design that they're easy to overlook. And as in iCal, the amazing detail of the appearance implies functionality that doesn't exist. Pages can't be turned by dragging, and even if they could, the number of pages on either side of the spine never changes. The window can't be closed like a book, either. That red bookmark can't be pulled up or down or removed. (Clicking it actually turns the page backwards to reveal the list of groups. Did you guess that?) The three-pane view (groups > people > detail) is gone, presumably because a book can't show three pages at once. Within each paper "page" sits, essentially, an excerpt from the user interface of the previous version of Address Book. It's a mixed metaphor that sends mixed signals.

      The three-pane view is kinda back in Mountain Lion, but you still can't adjust the relative sizes of the panes (presumably because the two sides of a real book are always the same size). This restriction makes no sense for a digital contact app and makes the app less useful, but it's dictated by the designer's slavish devotion to the book metaphor. A minor thing perhaps, but as a designer, you should know that these little things can quickly add up to make a product utterly (and needlessly) frustrating to use.

    20. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Should we just dismiss their needs?"

      Yes

    21. Re:The debate is moot. by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Interesting thought. Perhaps Steve Jobs was pushing skeuomorhpism for things HE grew up around.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    22. Re:The debate is moot. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      I second that. And fully understand your point. As a sidenote, no idea where that was a SF story or a computergame. Imagine you are the captain of a space war ship, something like the equivalent of a 17th 18th century frigate. With a crue of about 50 or more, perhaps thousands if you want to compare it witha modern carrier or WWII battleship.
      How would the officers mess or the captains quarters look like?
      A space ship like that would be on patrol or under way for years, perhaps travel, times would be years alone.
      So would a captain on such a ship rather live in a plastics and steel and glass environment or would he have a carpet, a rich carpet, extraordinare pictures, the walls in wood, a heavy desk in wood and ivory, perhaps with a slate plate, courner to sit with leather couches etc?
      The point is a UI can be crafted like a story. Some computer games do/did that. It is no problem for me if the first UI of a new product 'just works' (that means it is good and intuitive, but simple) ... however in the end it is the synthesis of newness, establishedness, usefullness and coolness that defines a super UI. Look e.g. at modern sound processing applications for music production. Many tools more or less exactly look like the original hardware. You place them on a board and interconnect them with virtual cables. When you turn the real looking knob for a setting the new digital indicator moves, or the old indicator needle is dancing, or both.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    23. Re:The debate is moot. by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      I agree with much of your post, but saying it's marketing by Microsoft etc. is paranoid conspiracy theory territory I'm afraid. There are definitely good reasons to hate something like a giant metal clip taking half of the screen real-estate, and it's not impossible that someone could make a blog about that kind of thing.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    24. Re:The debate is moot. by Hizonner · · Score: 1

      Also, I challenge you to come up with a symbol for saving files without using a diskette or something like that.

      Letter "S", followed by "A", "V", and "E".

      Alphabetic writing replaced hieroglyphics because it was superior. Icons were acceptable when you had to know 4 or 5 of them. Dozens of incomprehensible pictograms are a sign that the whole paradigm has gone off the rails.

      It may be true that "traditional visual metaphors no longer translate to modern users", but what about older users? Should we just dismiss their needs?

      Older users aren't idiots. And most of them learned to read when they were younger.

    25. Re:The debate is moot. by MadKeithV · · Score: 1

      Also, I challenge you to come up with a symbol for saving files without using a diskette or something like that.

      A crucifix ;-) (No, I'm not serious).

    26. Re:The debate is moot. by agentgonzo · · Score: 1

      Seriously, as a designer myself I can only shake my head when I read stuff like this.

      It may be true that "traditional visual metaphors no longer translate to modern users", but what about older users?

      Visual metaphores are just easier than text as you can get the information from a quick glance. Who cares if they don't really represent what they are anymore. People seeing the following road-sign know instantly that they are approaching a speed camera but no-one's really used a camera that looked like this with the concertina-front in about 100 years. Just because modern cameras don't look like this anymore doesn't mean we should go out and replace all our road-signs with more accurate ones. That's why the phone icon, the camera icon and the floppy-disk-to-save icon will not go away. Because everyone knows what they mean.

    27. Re:The debate is moot. by flimflammer · · Score: 1

      Glyphs occupy less screen space. That is a fundamental reason for their existence. You can put more functionality in front of the user without hiding it by using glyphs. People can also recognize symbols quicker than they can recognize strings of text. These glyphs were chosen at a time when they were actually relevant, so while they may seem irrelevant by todays standards (floppy disk icon), they have taken on a meaning of their own. Changing it for the sake of modernizing it makes no sense to me.

    28. Re:The debate is moot. by flimflammer · · Score: 1

      So...Pause?

    29. Re:The debate is moot. by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      That's pause. Record is a filled circle.

    30. Re:The debate is moot. by thestuckmud · · Score: 1

      I challenge you to come up with a symbol for saving files without using a diskette or something like that..

      Shouldn't we first ask whether an icon is helpful at all here? I just spent 5 minutes looking for a save icon in the applications included in OS X 10.6.8 and can't find a single one.

    31. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As for saving: I have seen arrow icons pointing down, or haddisk icons. Although I dont know if they make any more sense for your average user.

    32. Re:The debate is moot. by imagined.by · · Score: 1

      You can't even save in Mountain Lion anymore ;) You can just "duplicate".

    33. Re:The debate is moot. by Pecisk · · Score: 1

      I have heard this claim over and over again - and same time, people give their parents to use Ubuntu and they get same results.

      Maybe your stereotypes about what old people do or do not like are maybe...I don't know... a little off or just biased? Of course people will like tablets more - they don't have annoying keyboards where there is hundred of keys you can accidentally press and something will go wrong. No such problem with reasonably designed tablet.

      However back to topic - I'm not fully rejecting skeuomorphism. It has right time and place and it indeed can help common users to work with applications. However, I have seen only few scenarios when it's really have done well. None on OS X. However I have seen very good modern designs when OS X was in his peak - 10.3 - 10.4. It went seriously downhill after that.

      --
      user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
    34. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every time anyone uses the word "empower" in the context of UI design, or software design in general, I want to punch them in the face. Please stop using that marketspeak bullshit.

    35. Re:The debate is moot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I totally agree, i find it very easy to use a UI that gives me pictures of real things, beautifully rendered, and in fact even if i happened to spend the same amount of time trying to figure out how to use it, it is far more friendly and enjoyable an experience than looking at a flat square that seems to be the default win8 UI element.

  11. Dupe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't this story a dupe from a long while ago? I believe so.

  12. I want them to review Microsofts UI.... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Just to be sure there is not bias.

    Plus do they have any examples to show to the class that backs up their claims?

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  13. Just for the record by Oligonicella · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wood veneer IS wood. It's a more efficient use of the wood. FAKE veneer is printed paper. That I don't care for, mostly because it peels. Modern people aren't unused to seeing wood.

    And please, brushed chrome? It's timeless - and it's metal. One hundred percent of the people I know are used to seeing chrome.

    "One beneficiary could be Microsoft, where the design of Windows 8 distances itself from skeuomorphism by emphasizing a flat user interface that's minimalist to the core: no bevel, no 3-D flourishes, no glossiness and no drop shadow."

    I hate minimalism, it's nothing new, it's nothing attractive, it requires no thought and it's ugly as hell.

    All of the above is, of course, my taste. HEY! An idea... allow the user to choose. Oh, yeah... skins. Maybe he hasn't heard of them.

    1. Re:Just for the record by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You know that the pertinent discussion isn't really about the choice of materials to represent? Right? You got that much, right?

      Because the issue under discussion aside from quips about style is one of usability & human factors & UI vs. UX as a design aesthetic. It's much deeper than skins though your response is clearly skins-deep.

    2. Re:Just for the record by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The iPhone has skins? Other than the ones that go on the outside?

  14. iOS Maps by cormandy · · Score: 5, Informative

    The icon that fucks me off the most is the one for the iOS Maps application. The US interstate route sign in the icon (ie route 280) makes absolutely no sense to anyone young or old outside of the United States. A globe or something similar would make more sense....

    1. Re:iOS Maps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      it is a bit silly, but it's almost an easter egg because it's their headquarters... took me a while until I realised

      but again... to me until then, it was just a map of some roads

    2. Re:iOS Maps by Brian+Feldman · · Score: 1

      Different states have different shapes/colors/sizes/fonts/etc. for their state highways signs and yet they are all clearly recognizable as highway signs. You know it's a highway sign. Every country has enumerated highways if it has highways, and it has signs of some kind on those highways. Anyone would know it's a highway sign.

      --
      Brian Fundakowski Feldman
    3. Re:iOS Maps by beanpoppa · · Score: 1

      I live right off 280, so when I first saw that, I thought it was pretty cool that the desktop was dynamic and gave me icons specific to my location.

    4. Re:iOS Maps by Golden_Rider · · Score: 1

      Different states have different shapes/colors/sizes/fonts/etc. for their state highways signs and yet they are all clearly recognizable as highway signs. You know it's a highway sign. Every country has enumerated highways if it has highways, and it has signs of some kind on those highways. Anyone would know it's a highway sign.

      Actually I did not know it was supposed to be a highway sign. I have never seen a sign like that in my life, being from Europe. Since I know that the whole icon is for "maps" (because of the obvious street lines and the map pin), I knew that it probably stood for some map feature, but not for which one (point of interest? gas station?)

    5. Re:iOS Maps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume it's a highway sign because it's superimposed on a map, but it looks nothing like any road sign in the UK. 280 looks nothing like any road name in the UK either (all the numeric ones here are preceded by A, B or M).

      In fact, if you presented that symbol without putting it on top of a map and printing "Maps" under it, most people in the UK wouldn't have a fucking clue what it was supposed to be, so how is it supposed to help?

    6. Re:iOS Maps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's still less intuitive than the letter M. If your interface is worse than just a letter then you are doing things wrong.

    7. Re:iOS Maps by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      I think they should totally meta it and for the UK version show a man opening an umbrella.

      (Explanation for non-Brits: http://www.proshieldsafetysigns.co.uk/signs/7555_Road_traffic_signs_Men_at_work_symbol.html)

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    8. Re:iOS Maps by squiggleslash · · Score: 2

      If you're on a road, then every road sign looks like a road sign. Off a road, however, an unfamiliar shape that looks like a shield is going to look like a shield. The only question is why "280" would be the heraldry.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    9. Re:iOS Maps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're mistaken. I guess it's clearly recognizable to you because you're used to a certain style of highway signs. I googled to see what the icon looks like and I can assure you that if you would have shown me that without telling me what it is or that it belongs to a maps application I woudn't have had a clue.

    10. Re:iOS Maps by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Every country has enumerated highways if it has highways,

      Presumably by "enumerated" you mean "labeled with an alphanumeric label", given that if you mean "given a pure number" you are mistaken (and, yes, the letters are used on the signs).

      Anyone would know it's a highway sign.

      As a followup to your post noted, that is a false statement, unless "would" is subjunctive in that claim and you failed to indicate what needs to change in order to make it true.

    11. Re:iOS Maps by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I can assure you that very few people I've shown that in Russia, for example, realized that this is a highway number sign. And yes, we do have highways with numbers. We just don't have any special kind of sign for them.

    12. Re:iOS Maps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's apple HQ

    13. Re:iOS Maps by Riktov · · Score: 1

      The Calendar and Newsstand apps icons are dynamic, they ought to make Maps like that too.

  15. They're right for the wrong reasons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I can't stand Apple interfaces, and it has very little to do with skeuomorphism. At least skeuomorphic symbols mean vaguely something. No.. my complaint comes from icons/symbols which mean absolutely nothing, like the three coloured circles you see at the top of Windows on OSX. What the fuck are those supposed to mean?

    1. Re:They're right for the wrong reasons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't stand Apple interfaces, and it has very little to do with skeuomorphism. At least skeuomorphic symbols mean vaguely something. No.. my complaint comes from icons/symbols which mean absolutely nothing, like the three coloured circles you see at the top of Windows on OSX. What the fuck are those supposed to mean?

      point taken on this one, when showing a completely new user OS X it is slightly confusing at first, but the x + - symbols do make sense... like any UI it takes some initial getting used to

    2. Re:They're right for the wrong reasons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      red=stop, yellow=slow, green=go....the circular buttons at the top of OSX windows are good. The visual indicator you get when you've got unsaved changes is also good. What's not good is the way non-document-based apps quit when the last main window is closed while document-based apps (are supposed to) stay open even if there are no visible windows. A good example of an offender is iTunes; it's not document-based, but it stays running even when the main window is closed......just thinking about it hurts my braintub. Another indicator would be nice...maybe a diamond...I'm thinking if it's 'hard' to quit your app, a diamond in the main window's close button would make sense.

    3. Re:They're right for the wrong reasons. by EGSonikku · · Score: 1

      The stop light analogy makes about as much sense as _ [ ] X on Windows.

      --
      - "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"
    4. Re:They're right for the wrong reasons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How on earth do "go", "stop", and "be ready to stop" relate, even remotely, to operations with open windows?

      The MS icons might not be the best, but resembling something related to the function they actually perform is infinitely easier to understand than meaningless colors.. not to mention that there are colorblind people out there. Would you like it if your old music player just had buttons marked 1, 2, and 3 rather than the standard play, record, pause buttons? Oh, but you say, it's obvious what they do! I'm sorry that not everyone has a psychic link with computers like you seem to.

  16. But what about the next generation? by Dahlgil · · Score: 3, Funny

    Of course once you've gone completely flat and removed all the ornamentation, it makes one wonder where the next generation will go. Perhaps someone will suddenly realize, wow, we can make those tiles look just like a 3D image of a smartphone (and, of course, be promptly sued for rendering them with curved corners).

    1. Re:But what about the next generation? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well, if you take it to the extrem, every application is just an extract of words and terms and functinality from a hughe dictionary of terms ... we just could use an interface of floating words to do everything we need to do, or not?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  17. I would like to take a moment here by Magada · · Score: 0

    to thank the greedy motherfuckers who bought slashdot for this opportunity to participate in such a wonderful interactive advertising event.

    Two plugs for Win8 in one day? Why, that's just generous.

    --
    Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
  18. Disney & Apple Vs Nickelodeon & ??? by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If OS X and iOS are bad then iTunes is a crime against humanity. And I think that's because the original program came from outside Apple.

    I feel like Apple's UI can be compared to Disney's take over of animation stylings. Before Disney, you could find a whole variety of animation styles. But the vision of Disney was to make everything round and smooth and beautiful. Every animation cel was to look like a masterpiece portrait -- because that was the general populace's desired art at the time. And that's what Disney was trying to make, animated art. You might have found a sharp edge on a villain like Jafar in Aladdin but the main character would be round and warm. Others tried to mimic the stylings and it became a de facto standard mostly because it sold.

    Similarly, Apple has done their UIs to be as beautiful as possible. And they've done it really well and it's expensive (I'd imagine both computationally and price). And both Steve Jobs and Walt Disney appeared to be this monolithic men pushing this new way (in reality it's probably a bunch of artists in a cohesive team) but they've both come and gone. And Apple clings to that vision but the vision never changes.

    What happened to Disney was another production house, Nickelodeon, slowly discovered that square and rigid corners were not only acceptable but Spongebob Squarepants became an icon. Gross humor could be applied to shows like Ren & Stimpy and some people enjoyed this more than the safe beauty of Disney. Disney has no grit because Walt Disney wouldn't allow it. Disney got into disagreements with Pixar about Toy Story 2 and I think it is best if they left Pixar separate from Disney despite the acquisition. Similarly in the future Apple will be usurped by someone who is willing to experiment and deviate. Jobs is dead so Apple is committed to his vision ... probably until they go under. They'll acquire new ideas along the way with their massive piles of cash but what happens when those visions are at odds with The Great Master who has transcended to Nirvana? That's still a long way off but these rumblings of criticism just show you can make another interface that is completely the opposite of Apple and actually do well.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Disney & Apple Vs Nickelodeon & ??? by WankersRevenge · · Score: 2

      I've worked at Disney's home entertainment department and I've had close friends work at Nick (close as in the real sense, not the Hollywood sense).

      I think your entire post sums it up nicely in the second paragraph:

      I feel like Apple's UI can be compared to Disney's take over of animation stylings.

      Yes ... you feel because the rest of ranting has no basis in reality. Not one bit. This is a post that would make Jon Katz proud.

      I could go through your post and break it down piece by piece, but every time I start, this comic comes to mind. Let's just say, you need to cite your sources.

    2. Re:Disney & Apple Vs Nickelodeon & ??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes the "you're so wrong I can't even start" argument. Wins every time!

    3. Re:Disney & Apple Vs Nickelodeon & ??? by WankersRevenge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Before Disney, you could find a whole variety of animation styles.

      Disney was established in 1923. Animation was in its infancy. Filmmaking was in its infancy. Such a statement needs clarification.

      But the vision of Disney was to make everything round and smooth and beautiful. Every animation cel was to look like a masterpiece portrait -- because that was the general populace's desired art at the time.

      Citation needed. Disney has almost ninety years of animation history with a range of divergent styles. I can't say what 1920's American looked for in its art, but I can certainly say that animation was a novelty at its time.

      And that's what Disney was trying to make, animated art.

      Again, citation needed. And also clarification ... Disney the company? Disney the man? Disney the man started making shorts such as Steamboat Willie. 1928. The point of this short wasn't to make art, but to entertain. Disney the company has been making a range of animated films for years of many different styles. All can be described as "art". Even Steamboat Willie.

      You might have found a sharp edge on a villain like Jafar in Aladdin but the main character would be round and warm.

      Now we are in the Eisner era. This needed to be noted at the start of the argument.

      Others tried to mimic the stylings and it became a de facto standard mostly because it sold.

      What others? And seriously ... do you think Disney was the first to use lines, curves and edges as a way to depict stylistically character? That's a ludicrous statement which needs a citation.

      That's just the first paragraph. It may make great banter for cocktail parties, but it means nothing.

    4. Re:Disney & Apple Vs Nickelodeon & ??? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      If OS X and iOS are bad then iTunes is a crime against humanity. And I think that's because the original program came from outside Apple [wikipedia.org].

      I don't think that's the problem. I'm not sure what your qualms are with iTunes, but in my opinion the problem is that they've just crammed too much into it over the years.

      It started as iTunes-- iTunes-- because it was a pretty simple music player. It organized your library and played music, and you could use it to sync your iPod. That was about it. Over the years, they've added other media types, including TV shows, movies, books, podcasts, and educational material. They've also added a store to buy all that stuff, and a social network to talk about it. And since iTunes plays all of this media, it also has features to share and stream the media to other devices.

      But then, because it was used to put content on your iPod, it also became the way that you managed the iPod and applied updates. That lead to them including applications for iPods, iPhones, and iPads to the store. That also means that iTunes is responsible for managing those applications and installing them.

      Frankly, at this point, it doesn't make a lot of sense that it's called iTunes anymore. If they'd known that iTunes was going to end up doing all of this, I'd expect they'd call it something closer to "iMedia", except that I think if they knew it was going to end up doing all of this, they wouldn't have built it this way. Jobs seemed to favor having applications limited to doing a single thing, and not trying to slam everything into one application, like how OSX has a separate mail, calendar, and address book instead of putting it all together Outlook-style. I think iTunes only bypassed that because it happened piecemeal, where Apple would add just one more feature, and then just one more, and suddenly you find it includes the kitchen sink. When they released iTunes, nobody thought you'd have the massive media store delivering content to iPhones.

    5. Re:Disney & Apple Vs Nickelodeon & ??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disney has almost ninety years of animation history with a range of divergent styles.

      Hahahahah what? When you work at disney do they put blinders on the sides of your head?

    6. Re:Disney & Apple Vs Nickelodeon & ??? by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      Who just copy / pasted the discussion for a wikipedia article to slashdot??

      --
      Better known as 318230.
  19. People just want something that looks interesting. by MacTO · · Score: 2

    Even though I don't think that skeuomorphism is the way to go about it, people just want something that looks interesting. They are also willing to pay for the cosmetic changes from version to version, so it makes business sense too. Pretty much everything goes through these stylistic trends. Clothes, cars, and other home electronics come to mind.

    A second even though: even though I'm not big into fashion or appearances, I also want the computer screen to look interesting. The standard OS X and Windows 8 interface is a bit boring in my mind, simply because I am staring at it for hours a day and for days on end.

  20. MS can claim Prior "Art" by jigawatt · · Score: 2

    Remember Microsoft Bob?

  21. Windows 8? no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The extreme bad reception of visual studio 2012's new win8-like user interface paves the way for its failure.

  22. So its back to Motif then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple better start stealing/patenting the UI. Strange that they got it right first time, 20 odd years ago!

  23. Right by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    Give me the command line any day

    1. Re:Right by TimHunter · · Score: 2

      And get off my lawn!

    2. Re:Right by DrVxD · · Score: 1

      Frippery! A control panel full of toggle switches and lamps is the way to go

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
  24. It has its uses by mr_lizard13 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think there's such a thing a 'over-skeumorphing', but I do find it serves a purpose. Those shelves might not be real shelves, but it emphasises that those icons are books, not apps or games or anything else. And by using the same stitched leather across the iPhone, iPad and Mac version of the calendar app, it emphasises that the data you put in is shared between these apps. Same for the Reminders app. And the Notes app.

    I also think that having a strong visual identity for an app can make it more fun to look at and use, if that's your thing.

    I admire the slickness of Windows Phone, but it just feels a bit too depressing, bland and clinical for my liking. I don't feel like I'm supposed to have fun when I'm using a Windows Phone.

    --
    "We live in a global world" - Harvey Pitt, former Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman
    1. Re:It has its uses by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      And by using the same stitched leather across the iPhone, iPad and Mac version of the calendar app,

      So does the Calendar app in iOS > 3 use stitched leather on the iPhone? It sure doesn't do so on iOS 3.

      it emphasises that the data you put in is shared between these apps.

      You could also do that by omitting the stitched leather across all three versions of the app. I'd vote for that solution instead.

      I also think that having a strong visual identity for an app can make it more fun to look at and use, if that's your thing.

      I think adopting a visual identity that reduces contrast can make an app less fun to use.

    2. Re:It has its uses by mr_lizard13 · · Score: 1

      So does the Calendar app in iOS > 3 use stitched leather on the iPhone? It sure doesn't do so on iOS 3.

      You're right, it doesn't do so on the iPhone, it's just the iPad and Mac versions, which is interesting. My mistake. It looks like it's just the Reminders and Notes apps that share a similar design across platforms.

      You could also do that by omitting the stitched leather across all three versions of the app. I'd vote for that solution instead.

      You could, but the point I was making is that by sharing a design theme, it becomes more obvious that data is shared between the apps. It's essentially making the point "this is the same app". Sure you could do that without using stitched leather, but you'd need some other way of visually tying the apps together. It just happens that Apple went with stitched leather.

      I think adopting a visual identity that reduces contrast can make an app less fun to use.

      We disagree ;^)

      --
      "We live in a global world" - Harvey Pitt, former Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman
    3. Re:It has its uses by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      You could, but the point I was making is that by sharing a design theme, it becomes more obvious that data is shared between the apps. It's essentially making the point "this is the same app". Sure you could do that without using stitched leather, but you'd need some other way of visually tying the apps together. It just happens that Apple went with stitched leather.

      How about "by showing a choice of a month-at-a-glance, week-at-a-glance, or day-at-a-glance view, and calling it "Calendar" on all the platforms"?

      I think adopting a visual identity that reduces contrast can make an app less fun to use.

      We disagree ;^)

      I'm glad for you that your eyes are young and fresh enough that you don't miss the extra contrast of black-on-light-gray relative to black-on-brown. That may, or may not, continue to be true in the future.

  25. it's news! by blackfrancis75 · · Score: 1

    you're doing pretty well if, the day that designers criticize your UI, it makes headline news in the geek world.

    1. Re:it's news! by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      Wish I hadn't already posted so I could give you a +1 insightful...

  26. OSX is simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe windows metro style looks less decorated than OSX, but when you try to configure the wireless you will live hell on earth. OSX comes from a ZEN style, adding small decorations and shadows that users are able to understand in a natural way. Do you remember windows overlaps on WIN3.1? Yes, this is why skeuomorphism won the war with shadows. Despite 'slashdot' and 'gizmodo' trying to fight against Apple designs. Of course abusing of skeuomorphism is not a good idea, but in general windows errors are worst and more complicated than OSX ones.

    1. Re:OSX is simple by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Maybe windows metro style looks less decorated than OSX, but when you try to configure the wireless you will live hell on earth.

      And the skeuomorphism in the OS X "Network" System Preference item is? Does the "Create a computer-to-computer network" dialog (at least on Mountain Lion, select "Create network..." from the drop-down menu for the Wi-Fi icon) have a radio dial or radio push-buttons to set the 802.11 channel, or does it have a Boring Old Option Menu? (Hint: the answers are "nowhere" and "Boring Old Option Menu".)

      Of course abusing of skeuomorphism is not a good idea

      Which is exactly the point of The Fine Article; it's not saying "everything Apple have ever done is bad, and everything about Metro is better", it's saying "Apple's recent increase on skeuomorphism is over the top, and, at least from a pure visual design standpoint, Metro might be better".

  27. Yea! What Does Apple Know? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yea. Apple needs to do something about this. I've had just about all I can take of their extraordinarily successful and liked desktop metaphors.

    Apple needs to just change shit! So what if it is working fine. Old people need to FOAD. Apple needs to reinvent the desktop. Apple needs to follow Microsoft's lead in cutting edge desktop design technology.

    1. Re:Yea! What Does Apple Know? by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Apple needs to just change shit! So what if it is working fine. Old people need to FOAD.

      Are you referring to the old people for whom contrast is a good thing, so that black-on-light-gray works better than black-on-fake-brown-leather? (Oh, and Gramps's old desktop calendar didn't have a "+" button to let them write something in one of the month boxes, or arrow buttons to turn the pages; I'm rather skeptical that a little bit of fake-leather-and-torn-paper frippery is going to magically make the difference between "Gramps doesn't get it" and "Gramps gets it" there.)

  28. Tenuous at best by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I find this whole skeuomorphism thing to be tenuous at best. I'm 26 and have never used a rolodex nor a leather calendar book--and my phone hasn't looked like a corded handset since I was seven. But so what? I love the way all that stuff looks. There is a reason people go in for retro styles in the first place. We like that connection to the past. And to say that we are confused, simply because we're young is preposterous. We grew up on television. We've seen it all. Sure, we may laugh every time Jack McCoy picks up his tethered phone and flips through his rolodex to find another lawyer, but we aren't idiots. We know how this stuff works, and frankly I prefer the organic look of real objects to the sterile hospital environment of Google's design team. Just because the thing is digital does not mean it should look like it was designed for a Star Trek shoot.

    1. Re:Tenuous at best by Urza9814 · · Score: 1

      I'm 22 and I had to Google 'rolodex' to be sure I knew what everyone was talking about. Even my spell check doesn't know what the heck I'm talking about ;)

      Corded handsets are very much alive though...check any cubicle. And for a leather calendar book, just head to a college campus. You'll have to look for the super organized people, but you'll find a couple floating around.

  29. Jargon by michaelmalak · · Score: 2

    "Skeuomorphism" irritates me as much as "cloud" and "mash-up" before it. The simple term is "metaphor", the pre-2012 standard term for this approach to UI. Are the anti-skeuomorphismists proposing that every GUI OS now give up the folder metaphor? You know, underneath they're "directories".

    I'm guessing the objection is to photo-realism of the metaphor rather than the metaphor approach itself. Showing a 24-bit image is like having the joke explained to you. It also adds frustration and cognitive dissonance when the metaphor, which is an anology after all, breaks down -- when it doesn't operate exactly like what is being portrayed in 24-bits. Then, it's not just having the joke explained, it's also a bad pun.

    When desktop UI metaphors are rendered in 1-bit, they take on a suggestive and less specific meaning, and the user understands them as hints and the users do not rise up in rebellion with endless trade articles about "skeuomorphisms".

    1. Re:Jargon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      First off, there are many types of metaphors, so from a purely taxonomical point-of-view, there's nothing wrong with the introduction of a word that describes a particular type of metaphor. Secondly, it's not necessarily about metaphor. Skeuomorphism refers to the practice of carrying over unnecessary elements from one version of a product to another (in most cases, talking about going from an analog or physical object to a digital replacement). For example, the click that you hear when your phone's camera takes a picture is a skeuomorphism. It's added because people are used to the sound that old cameras physically made.

      While the main purpose of skeuomorphism is to create digital metaphors, the term refers to the action of carrying over the elements; the purpose may or may not be to create a metaphor, although that's what happens in most cases. It may seem pedantic to some, but the term does have a valid meaning.

    2. Re:Jargon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're confusing things. It's jargon, and in that jargon metaphors are not same as skeuomorphism.

    3. Re:Jargon by EGSonikku · · Score: 1

      Whenever I even see the word "Skeuomorphism" all I can picture is something like this:

      http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4087/5045492048_423f953751.jpg

      --
      - "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"
  30. Ask yourself this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look at the "phone" icon on your smart-phone. Now ask yourself what it should be if not a handset silhouette.

    1. Re:Ask yourself this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two tin cans connected by a piece of string?

  31. Great for sales by sunking2 · · Score: 1

    Nothing makes you think you did a great $500+ tablet purchase than looking at a minimalistic interface. And is it such a bad thing for your child to ask why an icon looks the way it does. Nothing wrong with silly 'Back in the day books were actual tangible objects and bound in leather. In fact your crappy plastic car interior is emulating it!'.

  32. What I find amusing... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The thing that I find very strange about Apple's UI peoples' obsession with ultra-tacky stitched leather borders, disgustingly twee fake paper calendars, little 'wooden' shelves for ebooks, and similar rot, is how sharply it differs from their hardware guys...

    On the hardware side, Apple's aesthetic is one of a practically brutalist honesty to their materials, and a fairly relentless drive to unify surface and structural elements(ie. aluminum unibodies, rather than ABS-clad magnesium or steel skeleton designs, that sort of thing). It is really quite jarring. Their hardware guys appear to be iterating toward the monolith from 2001, and then you turn the device on and *BAM* punched in the face by '90s shareware UI...

  33. A great time for criticism! by GeekWithAKnife · · Score: 1

    Apples has never been more successful, surely they are doing something right. It may be the case that the next "criticism" waved at apple will be maniacally laughed off.

    --
    A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
  34. Everyone is missing the point including the poster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When designing an experience for a user, you need to make it solid, fast, easy to use, and purposeful. In removing nostalgic crap, you make your OS/app/whatever more efficient.
    Someone said something about 'why should we ignore the old peoples needs'. First, it's not a need, and second, no matter what the "visual" that's clock cycles on the cpu and gpu. So in effect, you ARE addressing the older generations needs, you're "making their computer faster".
    Bottom line.

    I really did enjoy the way the Aero interface looked, but at the same time, I've been using 8 and really don't notice that it's gone. I mean, if I look at it sure, but when I'm using my pc it doesn't matter. What matters is that it is CONSTANTLY a faster gui.
    Sometimes even on the web, I wish companies and people would realize, the more crap you do, put on the page, bells and whistles, the slower you app is, or makes the computer running it. Not everyone can afford an uber pc like I have, so let's do it for the human race.

  35. I Agree! by clonehappy · · Score: 5, Funny

    Touching objects on a screen that look visually like what the physical representations of the function being peformed used to look like before we had PDAs and smartphones is ludicrous!

    I'd much prefer a CLI so I can type "cd /usr/bin" then "./phoneapp dial -domestic +13125551212" whenever I want to make a phone call and "./phoneapp hangup -log /var/log/calls.today" when I hang up and want to add the details to a log file. That's much easier for me to understand, and should be self-explanatory to anyone if they just read the command. :)

    If that's just too hard for some people, I guess we can have a GUI with red and green icons with antiquated pictures of analog handsets on them, for now. But those should eventually be deprecated in favor of some newer, more modern representation of what a phone looks like.

    1. Re:I Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Duh. You're doing it wrong. You should make sure you phoneapp is in $path.
      and don't you know how to use redirection?
      $ phoneapp hangup > /var/log/calls.today 2> /var/log/errorcalls.today

    2. Re:I Agree! by gtall · · Score: 1

      It is isn't that it is too hard for some people, it is just that some people like myself cannot be bothered learning some arcane bits of syntax time after time since we'll have forgotten from using it last 6 months ago; we have our real jobs to do that do not involve talking to a cli only a computer scientist's mother could love.

    3. Re:I Agree! by narcc · · Score: 1

      I'd much prefer a CLI so I can type "cd /usr/bin" then "./phoneapp dial -domestic +13125551212"

      Joke all you want. The rest of us have probably typed something like echo atdt 13125551212 > com1: at some point...

  36. is this backlash just hipster angst? by Speare · · Score: 3

    I'm a visual person. I like a bit of skeuomorphism. I can agree that many apps take it too far, but there are some kinds of apps where it can benefit, and where it can make things more fun to use.

    A few top ways skeuomorph apps can do things wrong:

    • take too much real estate for artistic masturbation (faux screwmounting, wide bezels, oversized labelling, gears, spiral bookbinding, fancy logo plates
    • rely on an ancient methodology people won't be familiar with (the Rolodex example is a good one)
    • break the metaphor (infinitely long three-ring-binder pages)
    • forcing the metaphor by withholding obvious shortcuts (requiring a separate pencil eraser tool to be selected, when Undo or backspace would suffice)

    Non-skeuomorph apps have the same kinds of problems in many cases. Fat margins, "iced" or unstretchable dialog box layouts, inability to copy pretty much any visible text to the clipboard, flat coloring that lets different entities to merge.

    I haven't found my ideal window manager yet. It seems like 99% of the mouthbreathing userbase likes fully sovereign/maximized applications. This breaks down on massive displays. It seems like a lot of people like magnetic window edges that "help" align things neatly and nicely at all times. I'm the opposite, I like windows to be scattered and different sizes, and if there are just a little too many, to be overlapping such that no borders line up. This is almost a skeuomorph of a desktop where different papers overlap generally but never exactly.

    People seem to go on about making flatter colors and simpler framing, but I like the visual cues of shading and shadow, of increasing or decreasing contrast to draw attention. The Metro stuff looks like a wall of sample paint chips you see in Home Depot, or the funny hospital triage menu interface in Idiocracy. No, I don't want to run "Afternoon Eggshell Delight" nor do I want to have to hunt the wall for it.

    Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. That includes examples of skeuomorphism. However, that's not the reason to throw it out.

    --
    [ .sig file not found ]
  37. Soulskill's crusade against skeuomorphism by mothlos · · Score: 2

    http://ask.slashdot.org/story/12/08/29/0138234/ask-slashdot-is-the-rise-of-skeuomorphic-user-interfaces-a-problem

    This is just a pet peeve of an editor and not of general interest. Skeuomorphic design isn't inherently evil for users, it's just that a lot of UI designers get annoyed when people ask for it and they can't try their less constrained designs. I sympathize with backlash against the plebian scum of the business world, but they are also their customers. This is an attempt to convince people that these designs are more objectively bad in order to have more firepower to resist them when they are requested.

    1. Re:Soulskill's crusade against skeuomorphism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps someone is "requesting" a skeuomorphic interface for Slashdot and Soulskill is looking for more firepower to resist them? God I hope not!!!

  38. Occurs in language too by jimmy_dean · · Score: 1

    I'd have to say I don't think it's such a bad thing, nor does it set a new precedent by any means. This type of things happens in languages (human) all of the time. In English, we still use words and phrases such as "he is in the lime light." How many people actually know that that refers to what they used to light stages with back in the early 20th century? Should we replace this phrase because it refers to something most of us have never physically observed? Of course not. Yet, some things in language evolve, morph and turn into something completely new. I don't mind the evolutionary/hybrid approach to language, and I don't mind it for UIs either.

    --
    -> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.
  39. couldn't understand the article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Can someone please to explain? Inline text callouts and images? Vertical words on a long page? I'm sorry, I couldn't even understand the article because it was laid out according to practices and standards that, while perhaps useful in easing the transition to the web from the print publishing industry of the early 1990's, is just scary and confusing to me, since I have never actually seen a "page".

  40. Why is Apple at $700/share? by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    Why? Because MOST of the users (and potential) out there understand these things. You can make an interface bare and functional, eschewing all references to physical or mechanical analogs, and you will make the computer literate crowd swoon. Compare that 2-4% market share with the "rest" of the population, and you can see why people are buying this "poorly designed" Apple hardware. It's familiar and comfortable - and it's (mostly) well-done and visually pleasing from a graphic design standpoint. Never, ever underestimate the power of good graphic design work.

    Look at high powered businessmen, CEOs, lawywer - they wears suits that cost what I make in a month to enhance their credentials without any indication of ability, and people believe them to be smart. Real geniuses (no Val Kilmer reference intended) can walk around in T-shirts and jeans because they really are awesome and don't need that kind of window dressing. Thing is, there are very, very few real geniuses out there, and if you dress up a "pretty smart" person, people will happily pay genius rates.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Why is Apple at $700/share? by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Why?

      Because their mobile phone, which doesn't, as far as I know, have stitched fucking leather in its calendar app and doesn't make its contacts list look like a fucking book, is a big success? At least according to this chart, almost half of the revenue still comes from a machine too small for twee skeuomorphisms - and, except in 2012, the "Portables" and "Desktops" lines didn't have them, either.

  41. OS X Regressions by mattsday · · Score: 1

    For those not familiar with this paradigm shift in OS X, John Siracusa nails it in his Mac OS X 10.7 Lion Review.

    I don't think either implementation makes the applications easier to use. They seem to have been done for no other reason than "we can".

    Mountain Lion's implementations aren't as awful, adding back most of the 10.6 functionality to iCal and making Address Book usable without constantly clicking between screens. However, they've gone this far, it would be trivial to remove the stitching and faux leather leaving them with standard apps that follow colouring conventions.

    Certainly from a HUI perspective and imho the changes aren't positive.

    --
    Now there's one hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is!
  42. There are other issues as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At the top:

    Apple's one-menu-to-serve-them-all approach is decidedly unfriendly when you have more than one monitor, as more and more of their machines come out of the box ready to operate with (and a machine like a Mac Pro can trivially be configured to run quite a few monitors.) But even a Mac Mini or a laptop will run two. What happens is that you're off on one monitor, you need a menu operation for the app you're working with, and the menu is 1,2 or perhaps six monitors of mouse-travel away. Menus on application windows make a great deal more sense.

    Typists -- by which I mean people who really type a fair bit, like writers or serious programmers -- are not served well by Apple's low profile "chiclet" keyboards. Apple gets the shivers by making their devices thin; but this means that keystroke throw is short, and what we end up with is a mushy keystroke.

    In the middle:

    Apple's one-app-at-a-time system UI messaging approach means that you can only send keystroke events to the active application. So, for instance, were you to attempt to write program B to automate program A, and the user happens to be using program C, any attempt to control program B from program A will require you to shift the user's focus from program C to program B, which is decidedly unfriendly. Applescript's mechanism for automation requires activation of this app, then that app, which means that the user can't be trying to use the machine when the Applescript is running. Which is kind of a serious faux pas for what is nominally marketed as a multitasking machine.

    There's no inter-program messaging paradigm other than the network. No named ports, etc. This also has severe implications for automation.

    At the bottom:

    UDP messaging is used to send network events in a broadcast manner. Apple's implementation of UDP only allows one program on a machine to bind to a UDP port, meaning that only one program on that machine can catch a broadcast -- which in turn means that if your implementation really needed a broadcast mechanism, you can't use UDP for it.

    ---

    That's just a sampling of UI issues with the OS. Against these rather immediate problems, I find the whole issue of make-it-look-like-[object] to be silly.

    Don't know what the [object] is? It's a one-time learning trip down memory (or history) lane, and you're up and running. Operation is easy, even if, lawd forbid, you had to learn something.

    On the other hand, when you need to get at a menu across a bunch of monitors, you're kind of hammered. It's time to go hunt for a third-party fix. If you need to really type, it's time to go buy a keyboard from a third party. If you need broadcast, I hope someone warned you the UDP stuff is broken so you don't waste your time trying to use it. If you're trying to implement IPC, well... [hollow laughter] I bet you'll wish you were working under Amiga OS before you even get seriously started. And no, Applescript won't get you even close because of the above-mentioned application focus issues.

    1. Re:There are other issues as well by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      The keyboard comment is not fair as there are 0 computers sold with decent keyboards as far as I can tell.

      Switch and spring based keyboards have all been replaced with mushy membrane based keyboards as standard on all PCs it seems.

    2. Re:There are other issues as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's fair: It's Apple's product, and it's Apple's keyboard, and they could fix it if they cared about your experience. Saying Apple has a UI problem isn't the same as saying ONLY Apple has a UI problem. I was just talking about OS X.

      Also, FWIW, if anyone is unhappy with their Mac keyboard, I finally found happiness with the Matias Tactile Pro 3. YMMV, but I doubt it. :)

    3. Re:There are other issues as well by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      We are seeing the return of mechanical keyboards, but they are marketed to gamers.

      --
      Good-bye
    4. Re:There are other issues as well by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not only to gamers, to geeks in general. There are something like two dozen different mechanical keyboards on the market today, and less than half of them are gamer-oriented.

    5. Re:There are other issues as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      UDP messaging is used to send network events in a broadcast manner. Apple's implementation of UDP only allows one program on a machine to bind to a UDP port, meaning that only one program on that machine can catch a broadcast -- which in turn means that if your implementation really needed a broadcast mechanism, you can't use UDP for it.

      UDP works exactly this way on Linux too, I don't have a BSD or Solaris system handy, but I bet it works the same way there.

      What platform allows multiple UDP listeners on one port? I have never seen it.

    6. Re:There are other issues as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just a few (honest) questions about your post:

      Apple's one-menu-to-serve-them-all approach is decidedly unfriendly when you have more than one monitor ... What happens is that you're off on one monitor, you need a menu operation for the app you're working with, and the menu is 1,2 or perhaps six monitors of mouse-travel away.

      Agreed. That's why I personally don't use more than two monitors, if I use multimonitor at all. Similar issues manifest on other OSes - minimize your window and it might be on a completely different monitor!

      Typists ... are not served well by Apple's low profile "chiclet" keyboards.

      I personally prefer the chiclet keyboard. My good friend has a Model M. That's a matter of personal preference, I think. As you said in your last paragraph, it's pretty easy to buy a different keyboard.

      Apple's one-app-at-a-time system UI messaging approach means that you can only send keystroke events to the active application.

      Interesting. I have only once had to write an Appescript to do something like what you are talking about, but the nature of that (copying text from one app to another in the context of a Flash-based chatroom where I was attempting to "text-mode teach") meant that I had no need to use a third application. I can't think of any other time where I personally would have needed to do app-to-app interaction and not been able to do something on the command line, but obviously your use case is different than mine.

      There's no inter-program messaging paradigm other than the network. No named ports, etc. This also has severe implications for automation.

      OS X has a /etc/services like every other operating system. Is that not what you need?

      UDP messaging is used to send network events in a broadcast manner. Apple's implementation of UDP only allows one program on a machine to bind to a UDP port, meaning that only one program on that machine can catch a broadcast -- which in turn means that if your implementation really needed a broadcast mechanism, you can't use UDP for it.

      A quick Google search and it seems that that's the specification for binding to UDP. Another cursory Google suggested UDP multicast and setsockopt(SO_REUSEPORT), or using a messaging interface (0MQ was suggested). Are there some huge differences between OS X and others that I'm not aware of here?

    7. Re:There are other issues as well by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      UDP works exactly this way on Linux too, I don't have a BSD or Solaris system handy, but I bet it works the same way there.

      What platform allows multiple UDP listeners on one port? I have never seen it.

      This one was run up the flagpole on Stack Exchange, with demo code, and the fellows on Linux had no problem at all binding multiple times. It only failed under OSX. A finger was pointed at BSD in general, too.

      Here are the Stack Exchange particulars: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11074895/sharing-udp-broadcast-reception-python-example

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    8. Re:There are other issues as well by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      OS X has a /etc/services like every other operating system. Is that not what you need?

      No. As far as I know, all etc/services does is provides what amounts to DNS for named TCP ports. What I'm talking about is a direct, program-to-program communications mechanism that transfers data between named ports without all the overhead of networking. As far as I know, in order to do this under OSX, TCP is the only option, and that is a *very* heavyweight mechanism to be invoking -- compare it to the Amiga's named ports and ARexx (Rexx scripting implementation) combo and you'll see what I mean. A fast IPC mechanism promotes all manner of good things, scripting for one, but that's really just the tip of the iceberg.

      Are there some huge differences between OS X and others that I'm not aware of here?

      My understanding ATM is the answer is yes. I refer you to the record of my adventures on the matter:

      At Stack Exchange: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11074895/sharing-udp-broadcast-reception-python-example

      To sum it up, multiple listeners works under linux, but not OSX.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  43. Nice in Theory but missing one bit of logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, their basic premise is valid - however, specifically the rolodex example, a rolodex style icon, despite it's antiquated-ness has become synonymous with "contact info" for digital natives - despite their never having used the 'real thing'. But even that is moderately inaccurate because what was a rolodex? A simple, organized, searchable collection of contact information, which is exactly what a contacts app is.

    This debate sounds like artistic navel gazing

  44. Yah Windows 3.11.... by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    God if really want minimal go back to DOS.....

  45. Apple's a hardware company first. by TheSkepticalOptimist · · Score: 1

    I think it is clear that Apple is a hardware company FIRST, then a software company. If Apple applied some of their hardware design principles to their UI design, we would be seeing some highly evolved and hopefully massively well received UI design. I think people want to use Apple's hardware and simply have to put up with their software, and of course assume the software must be on par with the quality of the hardware.

    Considering how much evolution has been seen in Apple's hardware over the last 10 years, and how little their OS'es have evolved, I think speaks to my point completely. For instance Mountain Lion is nothing more then Lion with a few more apps built into it.

    Apple's UI is not perfect, far from it. The assumption of "don't break what works" does not apply. Apple will see eventual erosion of their iDevice market as Microsoft and Google innovate in UI design while Apple persists with the same UI year after year. Eventually there will be some feature of Windows or Android that will make them more attractive then iOS or OS X. An product that remains static cannot compete indefinitely with consistently evolving product.

    --
    I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
  46. Windows 3.1 Forever by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    Judging by that article, the newly warmed over Windows 3.1 UI, is the one and only way. Just wait till MS brings back Microsoft Bob and Clippy.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    1. Re:Windows 3.1 Forever by narcc · · Score: 1

      The new Windows UI doesn't look or function like Windows 3.1 at all. Not even a little bit.

  47. save icons w/o disks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Also, I challenge you to come up with a symbol for saving files without using a diskette or something like that.

    Ok, I'll bite.

    Word processor: image of a stack of text pages with an arrow pointing into the pages = load document; arrow pointing out of the pages = save document.

    Paint program: Image of painting, same arrows.

    Basically you graphically describe a motion, make the graphic recognizable as a type of motion, and you can do save, load, copy, paste, etc.

    Make each type of motion arrows a particular visual style, and you've got system-wide conventions that are easy to recognize and that doesn't depend on the type of device you're saving to, only depends on the type of document you're dealing with.

  48. Confusion??? What A Dumb Argument by EXTomar · · Score: 2

    I've come across no UI design that is perfect but these guys pick something that Apple actually does "correctly" and as well as trying to cite Windows 8 Metro as the better way to do it which is extraordinarily dubious stance to take???

    I am not a professional UI designer but from the things I've learned about skeuomorphism is that skeuomorphisms are powerful when used correctly. For instance: Present a group of people a large cornflower blue square and ask them "What is this used for?" and you will get a lot of different answers (an output area, a blank picture, an empty container, no idea). Present the same group of people a square with a wood grain texture and ask them "What is this used for?" and many will immediately gravitate to "this looks like a flat wooden surface" and often calls up "an area I can put other things on". Even though functionally both the blue square and the wood texture square can be coded to the same thing, the texture adds a skeuomorphism that gives a big hint on the function.

    Now look what was just pointed out here with Metro and the various gadgets found on Mac OSX. I think it is dubious when people are looking a colored square with text as "better" than a something that looks like a notepad with a check list on Mac. There are drawbacks to doing that way on the Mac but it sure as hell isn't "confusion"!

  49. who cares... by SuperDre · · Score: 1

    Who cares what designers think, they don't even know themselves what's good.. It just all depends on what's hip at the moment, and has nothing to do with good UI design as good UI design is in the eye of the beholder, what works for one, doesn't work for another, also what platform you're working on makes also a big difference, and Windows 8 is a perfect example of how to fubar UI, yes it's absolutely great for tablets, but it sux beyond believe for desktop (the 'metro' part that is, that is MY opinion after using it for a while, and NO it's not only the startscreen).
    I've seen designers come up with cool stuf, but I also have seen more than enough UI design that really stink but was according to the designer completely 'by the book'..
    So, nobody actually knows perfectly how a UI must be designed as it all depends on the platform/application and user.. anybody saying it's not is just a moron who thinks his/her way is the best..

  50. Nonsense by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    Either the article or the summary is nonsense.
    The fact that iPad apps especially and also to a lesser degree Mac apps have fancy gui adornments is the point having an iPad.
    Why should e.g. the Widgets in the Address Book App fill the whole screen, while a name or a city is only so long? I rather have a nice and pleasent layout and the surrounding are filled with leather imitate.
    And don't fortet: if you work at dawn or dawkness it is nice for the eyes if not the whole screen is glowing in white.
    If you want examples how "not to do it" look at the older ICQ windows.
    And frankly the most beautifull Mac OS UI was system 10.3 when everything was brushed metal, it just looked awesome on a alu laptop.
    And really if you have to have a toolbar with only 5 buttons, who really cares wheather the unused area is metal or wood or leather? After all it is far easyer to recognize a scaled down window in exposure when the framing and edging is unique and not like every other window.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  51. New Aesthetic! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope that debates like this become more and more common. If we were rebuilding the world from scratch using the technology that we have today, it would look very different. And all the old world visual metaphors that exist in the digital world would be gone in such a world. I say toss out all the old metaphors and let the new digital era go forward. As for the old people who can't deal with that, fuck 'em. Progress marches on.

  52. I disagree by baalzebub · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Quite the contrary, I think Apple's design do look more modern. Especially if you compare them to Metro. Metro can be more functional (especially on mobile devices) but to casual users (as in, most of the computer/gadget users) it's not as comfortable. Also, Metro do look cold. It's a colorful interface, but it has no personality. You just do whatever you need to do and be done with it, but you still don't feel that process was natural. You need to learn how to do the things you want to do and after awhile the whole process becomes boring. You don't feel anything while you're using your device. That's not what Apple is aiming at. Apple's design is the way it is because Apple wants users to engage with the device they're using. They don't want you to just do your job and get on with it. They want you to feel something while you're using it, they want you to enjoy it. Metro doesn't achieve that, and frankly, it doesn't seem like Microsoft was trying to achieve something like that either. Plus, because of all this skeuomorphism thing, this "high-tech" devices doesn't seem scary to casual gadget/computer users. I know a lot of people who don't use a particular device because they're afraid they can mess things up or they think can't use it. Devices intimidates them. Apple's devices are not like that. Even if you haven't touched a single Apple device nor seen one, once you get one in your hands, you have this feeling of similarity. You feel like you've been using the device you're holding for a long time, and whatever you want to do, you just do it naturally and the device reacts. You almost never need to learn anything. That's something unique to Apple and is one of the many reasons why they're so successful.

  53. Right-click? On a Mac laptop? lol by sgtrock · · Score: 2

    Every time I have to do some admin task on my stepdaughters' OS/X laptops, I am reminded forcibly yet again that Apple still thinks that mice should only have one button.

  54. Designers criticizing other designers?! by fitterhappier · · Score: 1

    Jesus, what's next? Writers criticizing writers?

  55. Remember Apple's slogan? by jemenake · · Score: 2

    Keep in mind that Apple's early slogan (for the Mac, anyway) was "The computer for the rest of us". That "rest of us" bit referred to the folks who weren't computer geeks who loved the command prompt. In order to make the Mac welcoming, they tried to use plenty of metaphors which were already ingrained into the minds of potential users. Heck, even the very idea of a desktop is like that, where you pick stuff up, set it down somewhere else, windows overlaying like sheets of paper. The point is, Apple seemed to try (more than their competitors, at least) to create as many "Oh, this is just like what I do in the physical world, already!" moments as possible, so that, from first use, the user found the Mac to be familiar and welcoming.

    Now... it sounds like the argument being made is "Yeah, yeah... but those days of the never-bought-a-computer consumers are over. Now that we've got them on-board, let's start cutting those ties to meatspace". However, to do so makes me immediately think of Photoshop. If you started with Photoshop when it was version 1.0, and if you grew up with the gradual addition of features as they appeared in the many versions, then you're fine. Frankly, I weep for anybody who has to learn today's Photoshop from no previous experience with it. About a decade ago, Adobe, itself, realized that they had this problem and they came out with Photoshop Elements (and you can make the same argument with Premiere and Premiere Elements) as an intermediate step to get users acclimated to Photoshop paradigms without just throwing them into the deep end of the pool. (For those about to argue that Photoshop Elements was, instead, an attempt to tap into a "pro-sumer" and amateur market which was priced out of Photoshop... yes, it was that, too... but it wasn't all that, or else Elements would have just been Photoshop with a bunch of the powerful features taken out. Instead, Elements had a bunch of UI changes which made it easier to use; there was now a red-eye removal button, instead of having to lasso or magic-wand and then use a spot-healing tool or whatever. It introduced the user to being able to successfully manipulate pixels, without the learning curve being way too steep.).

    So, that's what I think of when I see the calls for Apple to abandon skeu... that the ship is full of passengers and it's time to shove off, take those passengers to further shores, and leave the rest of the folk on the docks. And I think that's a departure from what Apple has always tried to be.

    Lastly, I gotta say... I grew up with MS-DOS... did 8086 and 6502 assembly... nuts-and-bolts stuff. I hated Apple with a passion for years as being "foofy". Nowadays, however, when I play with my iPhone or iPad, I find all of the real-world metaphors in the UI to be very heartwarming. The stitching on the leather in the Notes app... I look at that and it's a little like sipping hot cocoa.

    Now.... GET THE HELL OFF MY LAWN!

    1. Re:Remember Apple's slogan? by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      Now... it sounds like the argument being made is "Yeah, yeah... but those days of the never-bought-a-computer consumers are over. Now that we've got them on-board, let's start cutting those ties to meatspace".

      Actually, at least for OS X, the argument is "why are you introducing ties to meatspace that weren't there before?" Prior to Lion, iCal didn't have fake leather and fake page tears and Address Book didn't try to pretend it was a real book. And the same might apply to iOS as well - the iPhone versions of apps don't have much in the way of skeuomorphisms, so maybe they were introduced in the iPad. The latter sounds a bit like a case of "because we can" rather than "because we should".

      Nowadays, however, when I play with my iPhone or iPad, I find all of the real-world metaphors in the UI to be very heartwarming. The stitching on the leather in the Notes app...

      When I use Notes on my iPhone, I don't see any stitching. Was that introduced after iOS 3, or is it another iPad-only skeuomorphism?

  56. Re:Right-click? On a Mac laptop? lol by mla_anderson · · Score: 2

    On a track pad: Ctrl+Click or Two-Finger Click. On most Apple mice, or any other mouse, right click works just fine.

    --
    Sig is on vacation
  57. Studio applications by jones_supa · · Score: 1

    One area that definitely deserves to be mentioned is all the virtual studio gear such as VST plugins, audio players and such. They often try to mimic real-life counterparts. I don't know if it's good or bad, but it at least it creates a bit mismatched overall look.

  58. Just sour grapes from crappy designers by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

    From the article: "During my reporting for Fast Company's feature on design at Microsoft, which was part of our October design issue, I spoke with a number of designers, Apple veterans, and industry insiders hostile towards Apple's approach to software design."

    As long as consumers like it, why should anyone care what "designers, Apple veterans, and industry insiders" think?

    From the article: "It's also why many industry leaders are excited for Windows 8. For the design of its new operating system, Microsoft took a surprisingly refreshing approach, distancing itself from skeuomorphism while emphasizing a flat user interface that's minimalist to the core. Sure, real-life visual metaphors still exist in the UI--an envelope to represent the mail app, a camera to denote the photo app--but the icons are without embellishments: no bevel, no 3-D flourishes, no glossiness and no drop shadow. It's Microsoft's stripped-down UI that many find appealing--a welcome alternative to Apple's approach to software design."

    And yet in the real world, virtually everyone loves iOS, while Windows 8 is shaping up to be an epic flop. If these "insiders" are so out of touch with reality, maybe they need to be replaced. Were these, by any chance, people who got fired by Apple for not getting it? If that's the kind of people Microsoft is hiring now, I guess Windows 8 starts to become at least understandable, if not forgivable.

    In this article, linked from the original article posted, we finally get the real answer as to why some UI designers don't like "skeuomorphism":

    "But aside from aesthetic reaons, it is hard to see how these designs will ever evolve beyond derivative representations. Will they just change color and increase their visual fidelity?"

    And there you have it: designers don't like it because it makes them redundant. It's really that simple. The idea that there might actually be an optimal UI, and that once you get there you might not need to pull the rug out from under users every year, is anathema to the "UI designer" crowd.

  59. What's the problem? by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

    In the scheme of things to complain about, skeuomorphism is near the bottom. Once you get started down this path, you could start criticizing any aspect of design; beveled buttons, drop shadows, etc. However, all these things enhance clarity. In the purest sense Windows Phone goes in the opposite direction, taking a more minimalist, graphic approach. And they do it well, but if you take that path you have to commit to it.

    At times I do like skeuomorphism. There's no reason whatsoever why an interface shouldn't have some visual flair. I've always been a fan of synthesizer software design specifically because they replicate physical controls creatively. It really depends on the context and the skill of the illustrator involved. The Address Book reminds me of a cowboy's chaps and the Library looks like something from shop class. But the fact that they went for a more physical look doesn't bother me.

    It's not fundamentally different than web design. The best designs maintain interface consistency, but provide distinct visual cues to show you've navigated elsewhere. A unique theme doesn't inhibit that. The thing is, if Apple's design had instead been a grey monolithic sameness the hipsters would be complaining about the lack of variety.

  60. Spot on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Funny, i never liked apples design and couldn't understand at all why people seem to like it. I find it pretty ugly actually.

    I'm no frind of windows most of the time, but i also think that the new design of windows is very nice. And by that i don't mean the windows 8 ui start menu, but the general look and feel. The article does address that too. I don't now why people in here immediately need to go crazy about the new start menu.

  61. Re:Right-click? On a Mac laptop? lol by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    I think it's amazing that you found a Mac where the user hasn't replaced the defective mouse that it came with.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  62. Re:Right-click? On a Mac laptop? lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, that is a common tick if you're not used to the interface. Once I got used to it, I found that it actually saves time and is more convenient.

  63. There's only one thing that can stop this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The designer will screw up while riding his fixie to work, go over the handlebars, and smash his skull because he's wearing one of those 1910-newsboy style caps instead of a helmet. Either that, or he'll get lung cancer from the smokes.

    I just hope he didn't find time to date the girl who put curtains on Yahoo and procreate. Disaster for the human race if that happens.

  64. you see this in written languages all the time by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Why bother remembering the letter A represented an ox in some long ago middle eastern language or H was a doorway? They have knew meanings now even though their shapes faintly resemble their original meanings.
    Ditto ideographic languages like Chinese and Egyptian. Many ideograms are now fully or partially "sounds like" rebuses.

  65. Designers criticize [noun]. by Tarlus · · Score: 1

    News at 11.

    --
    /* No Comment */
  66. He's the truth about the modern skeumorphism by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

    It's a fad. It's graphic designer one-upsmanship. It serves no non-ornamental purpose. It is pure wankery.

    The "it helps old people" line is a rationalization. It doesn't. The same sort of people admiring this emperor's new clothes were ridiculing Microsoft Bob fifteen years ago, only now it's cool because Apple does it.

    In five years, clean lines will be the fashion, and they'll be ridiculing wood grain and stitched leather textures as if they had been all along.

  67. You can't hyperlink on a rolodex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So Apple skeuomorphs don't let you hyperlink on their calendar app.

    Reel-toReel tapes don't allow skipping direct, so the skeuomorphs don't let you skip.

    Far far too many UIs ape the "real world" item so closely they throw out the benefits of not having to build the damn thing out of real materials.

    1. Re:You can't hyperlink on a rolodex by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      So Apple skeuomorphs don't let you hyperlink on their calendar app.

      Fortunately, Apple didn't fuck up the calendar app that badly.

      Reel-toReel tapes don't allow skipping direct, so the skeuomorphs don't let you skip.

      Far far too many UIs ape the "real world" item so closely they throw out the benefits of not having to build the damn thing out of real materials.

      That is the unforgivable sin in skeuomorphism; if you impose upon the object the limitations of the imitated object, when the imitating object's object doesn't inherently have the same limitation, you've fucked up massively. Address Book in Lion and Contacts in Mountain Lion both commit that sin.

  68. Then it was proven by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By your test, it appears that Microsoft designed a better everything (better/faster/more_stable OS, better calendar UI, more-standards-compliant browser than Safari, prettier window controls, etc).

    McDonalds has the best hamburgers, too. I can prove it.

  69. Not old to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love traditional visual metaphors. I still use calendars with faux leather-stitching and rolodexs. That is all

  70. Sorry but these designers like Metro? by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

    So they think that people are better able to relate to a ripoff of http://www.benetton.com/ and swiss highway road signs? Sorry but I don't see how Metro is easier to relate. In fact, I would argue that our aging population will find it extremely confusing. Perhaps MSFT needs to stop trying so hard to be "cool" by appealing to hipsters instead of the general populace.

    Metro is garbage and unimaginative. Skeuomorphism has a long history in both Mac OS and NeXT which are the ancestors of OS X and most people find the OS X interface to be more intuitive because of that attribute in the interface.

    My advice would be to never hire these so-called designers for anything important. Let them continue to create hard to navigate "avant-garde" and hard to navigate websites slavishly copying the swiss industrial design school style. Keep your uncomfortable plastic chairs to yourself.

    Two perfect examples of failed products by MSFT which were designed to appeal to hipsters are the KIN and the Zune. The latter's UI is the precursor to the Metro design language and people seemed to hate it.

    MSFT needs to stop trying to be "cool" and concentrate on fixing their products like Sharepoint server, Office, SQL server and Windows server. Perhaps they could even release the .NET runtime on OS X and linux to compete with Mono and possibly offer Visual Studio on other platforms as well.

    --
    Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
  71. Yes, I'm pining for the old days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like visually simple interfaces. It's why on Windows I turn off Aero and adopt a simpler theme. On the Mac I don't have as much flexibility, but I still do things like put the dock on the side rather than the bottom (it's simpler that way, and vertical display space is at a premium on widescreen displays), turn off the animation, etc. On Linux I prefer visually simple window managers.

    I pine for the days when user interfaces were hand-crafted as simple boxes and outlines by programmers rather than artists intent on emulating the real world (badly) for no functional purpose. I thought that lesson was learned a long time ago during the time of Microsoft Bob.

  72. My Choice by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

    I'm not speaking to everyone when I explain what I want in a user interface.

    Personally clutter is one thing I can't stand, that is something I personally find Apple doesn't understand. Everything about Apples interface I see as an attempt to cram something else onto a bar or in a folder or as an icon and it drives me nuts. I don't care about 3D effects, I don't care about glass effects or anything useless that doesn't contribute to me getting work done.

    In an ideal world every computer would come with a terminal and a window manager and that is it. Your don't need anything else to get the job done, your need some place to throw a window and you need a way to execute programs well being able to "quiz" the user space / kernel space. You don't needs bars, you don't need control panels and you 100% don't need desktop surfaces.

    After all why should I have my computer wasting rendering time and power on something that doesn't assist me or help me relax? My rendering power should go to games or power hungry applications such as PCB layout / Autocad.

    I know I don't speak for everyone, I can accept that people want all the extras and the kitchen sink in an interface but that's not what I want . This is one of the reasons I use Linux, Linux users understand interface design, slim, sleek and without the crap. After all shouldn't a computer be more about running application and not the desktop?

  73. Re:Right-click? On a Mac laptop? lol by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    Use 2 fingers or a two-button mouse. It's been Apple's SOP since 2006 or so on Mac laptops. Actually I found multi-finger gestures far easier to use on a Mac. For example scrolling is dragging with two-fingers. Newer Windows laptops do this but it doesn't always work for every window.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  74. Ignore this article -- marketing piece for Win8 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you read the article and click through to the Windows 8 article, it's quickly apparent that this is just a backhanded marketing piece for Windows 8. This article started showing up in my social streams, LinkedIn, and social news outlets almost immediately after it went up.

    The author is cited this way:

    "*********Austin Carr writes about social media********* and technology for Fast Company."

    All of this screams to me that it was written to be passed along social networking for marketing purposes. It's getting traction, which is sad enough, but even sadder for me is that it found its way onto /.

  75. And this leaves the Dock still useless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So in what way is "use a different dock" going to stop the Mac OS X dock from sucking?

  76. WHY flat is BAD UI design by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Agreed. The problem is most people don't understand the reason WHY Metro is a horrible UI -- hint: it has to do with context.

    When you have a "flat" UI you have no *secondary* _visual_ cues to tell you what you can interact with or not. You see this effect in many iPhone apps where they will have this absolutely beautiful graphics (and backgrounds) and you have no clue what the hell is an actual UI "widget" that you can push, slide, etc.

    OSX Mountain Lion is starting to fall for this trap by hiding scroll bars. When I need to scroll, such as dragging the slider up/down, I can't even tell where it unless I first do a dummy scroll. This is retarded.

    With a more "traditional" approach with *some* 3D elements such as drop shadows, beveled corners, these widgets "stand out" so we have a more natural intuitive sense to make the *critical* distinction between 2 UI elements:

      * what is purely static which conveys information
      * what can I interactive with.

    UI is *supposed* to be about making it EASIER for users by *helping* them think less and act more by streamlining their judgement process. 3D Buttons are a perfect example of this: Users internally are thinking "Ah, here is a button I can push -- OK, what does it do? Does it do what I think it does? Does it do what I need it to do?"

    ALSO note that TOO many 3D elements is a hinderance. 3D Studio, Blender, etc, are HORRIBLE UI's simply because they *overload* the user with too *many* widgets. It is an design art-form to maximize minimalism and minimize functionality. Sadly, too many UIX don't have a freaking clue about the fundamentals.

    Without recognizing this deep contradistinction UI designers are completely screwing users over making them play the what-can-I-interact-with-game. This is 5 steps backwards. *sigh* Somebody everyone will realize we need to change the computer to fit US, instead of trying to change humans to fit the computer.

    1. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "When you have a "flat" UI you have no *secondary* _visual_ cues to tell you what you can interact with or not."

      But isn't that self-evident with a tile-based interface? A tile interface is barely different than a permanent cntrl-alt-tab, which doesn't have any 3d anything. A tile interface to me is obvious. There's a tile there for Office (or whatever). I want to run it so I tap it. Not really sure how that would be confusing to people. I don't see people mistaking a tile for some other design element like a slider or something.

      Here's another perspective though. In the old paradigm, you have icons and programs. Most icons today don't show a whole lot about what's happening with the program. Live tiles, or even live icons are a step up because at-a-glance info can be shown right on the tile. To me that's pretty handy actually.

      -S

    2. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by petsounds · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When you have a "flat" UI you have no *secondary* _visual_ cues to tell you what you can interact with or not. You see this effect in many iPhone apps where they will have this absolutely beautiful graphics (and backgrounds) and you have no clue what the hell is an actual UI "widget" that you can push, slide, etc.

      Agreed. Or they don't follow their own gestural patterns they've instilled in people, such as the Calendar app in which you can't swipe through the months, but instead have to click on tiny arrows at the bottom of the screen.

      Another motivation Apple designers have had recently is, "Let's get the clutter out of the way so users can focus on the content". In theory this sounds good, but in practice on Mountain Lion they have reduced the UI widgets in size drastically -- ML window buttons (the "traffic lights") or the thin scroll bars. They're also doing things like hiding UI elements, which we see this in the system scroll bars and in the chrome for QuickTime Player. This creates extra cognitive work for users, and IMO creates more of a net distraction than just having a tried-and-true fullscreen button. And I would imagine people with shaky hands or bad eyesight would have real trouble clicking on Mountain Lion's tiny interface elements. For me, I certainly have to concentrate more to make sure I click on the buttons.

      Either the changes in these basic UI elements is the embracement of a disastrous design philosophy by Apple UI designers, or Apple is slowly trying to phase out the mouse completely.

      It's been reported that internally there has been in-fighting over skeumorphism. I think the software UI design team at Apple is off the rails. They don't have a leader that understands the fundamentals, and Apple no longer has a leader like Jobs to tell them what works and doesn't. [To be fair, Jobs is the one who first pushed skeumorphism when he changed iTunes to the brushed metal look.] I think Jony Ive should take over leadership of the hardware and software design teams. When OS X was first released, its Aqua UI tastefully matched the hardware cues of the Macs available then. Now, it's a complete divorce. You have these sleek, intuitive forms that Sir Ive designs, and tacky, unintuitive software running on them.

    3. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2

      >> "When you have a "flat" UI you have no *secondary* _visual_ cues to tell you what you can interact with or not."
      >But isn't that self-evident with a tile-based interface?
      It depends, but usually the answer is no. What are the visual indicators that some tiles can be pushed, flipped, moved, or rotated?
      Using a different lighting on widgets you can interact with helps the user at the subliminal level that they can interact with them, and they don't need to spend too much time thinking about how to interact with them.

      > Live tiles, or even live icons are a step up because at-a-glance info can be shown right on the tile.
      Agreed. Dynamic icons (if the visuals are kept to a minimal) are awesome!

      i.e.
      The calendar app icon on the iPhone is a perfect example. It shows me the day of the week, Wednesday, and the numeric day in the month, 19.

      The best option would be to give users control over what they want to be dynamic.
      i.e. Do you want the clock icon to be accurate, and/or the compass to be updated in real-time, or do you want to save battery life and show static icons.

    4. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by ludditetechnologies · · Score: 1

      OSX Mountain Lion is starting to fall for this trap by hiding scroll bars. When I need to scroll, such as dragging the slider up/down, I can't even tell where it unless I first do a dummy scroll. This is retarded..

      Just on that I use the touchpad with two fingers on my Macbook with no regard or awareness of what is now to me a redundant control, I don't need to know where the scroll bar is at, I just push two fingers in the direction I want to go. The absolutely effortless, intuitive and completely position agnostic (of my two fingers) behaviour of the touchpad is a marvel to use and one of the reasons I could not consider other meritorious hardware / software computing solutions... and the recent (Lion I think) flipping of the page scroll action direction was another good idea too... guts and design sense, and free koolaid. Sip... mmmmmm :)

    5. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      Oh, OSX has skinny scrollbars? I guess that's the reason the Mac wannabe designers of the latest Ubuntu made the scrollbar one px thick.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    6. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is so true and part of the reason Android is not as easy to use as Ipad. Flat UI, difficult to find what to do. Android is unintuitive, and i used to think it was cos they had to make sure everything was different to IOS, so things worked the opposite way, like, but now i'm thinking maybe its the design asthetic of Android?

    7. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Yeah it does.

      It is a problem for 2 reasons:

      It demonstrates the Apple designers are completely failing to understand Fitt's law. As I get older I don't want to waste time trying to "hit" a skinny UI element because the darn thing is too small. The size of a target is THE primary metric used to determine how efficient they can be with it.

      It completely misses the whole point of UI. *IF* users could customize the width to *their* personal liking, THEN custom width scroll bars would be a good thing.

    8. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > Just on that I use the touchpad with two fingers on my Macbook

      Yes, IF you are using a trackpad (or tablet) then the design is OK.

      However, if you are using a mouse, the design is absolutely stupid and ignores everything we learnt about UI design, starting with Fitt's Law.

    9. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "OSX Mountain Lion is starting to fall for this trap by hiding scroll bars. When I need to scroll, such as dragging the slider up/down, I can't even tell where it unless I first do a dummy scroll. This is retarded."

      No. Mountain Lion eliminated the need to dummy scroll. The scroll bars appear when you simply rest your fingers on the trackpad.

    10. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      I concur with you assessment.

      Apple has always had its "flavor of the month" philosophy. I just wish they would fix their previous UI mistakes instead of tossing them out and making even more new ones!

      Tog wrote this back in 2004:
      "Finally, Exposé needs to add a tiny delay before opening when the mouse is thrown into a corner. The corners are such pointer-magnets that users often arrive there by accident. Users, under OS 10.3, are now learning to slow up their mouse activities in general to avoid accidentally triggering Exposé. A delay of between 1/20th of a second and 1/10th of a second should be sufficient and will result in a significant speed increase in other nearby activities, such as accessing the Apple menu."

      Even in 2012, 8 years, this issue is constantly ignored. ;-(

      The fact that Apple can't natively to do WindowShadeX tells me they are not interested in adding _useful_ functionality.

      References:
      http://www.asktog.com/columns/044top10docksucks.html
      http://kevinyank.com/blog/archives/workaround-mac-os-x-leopard-docked-folder-icon-madness

      Why are UIs stuck in the 1990's ???

    11. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by ludditetechnologies · · Score: 1

      I dunno, thinking of interacting without having to move ones attention to a control element to make something happen is a good thing, and that is how it works with a scroll wheel too right? Given there may be fine point adjustments that could benefit from tiny incremental movements but I cant say I have come up against that in my current daily task use... which is general sysadmin work.

    12. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > and that is how it works with a scroll wheel too right?
      Correct.

      Notice how we have "worked around" the UI problem - by having a (standard) hardware we can simply the UI :-)

      That's why dedicated calculators are examples of great design -- you have dedicated buttons that enable / empower the user to focus on the task-orientated processes without thinking about how to do it.

    13. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by petsounds · · Score: 1

      The size of a target is THE primary metric used to determine how efficient they can be with it.

      Ironically, their Human Interface Guidelines for iOS and their developer sessions for iOS are emphatic that UI elements be big enough to touch (min. 44x44 points). Surely Apple eats their own dog food, so I'm not sure how they can consider the scroll bars and tiny close/min/max window buttons acceptable for an average user. ESPECIALLY considering the laudable amount of engineering resources Apple brings to bear in advancing accessibility features.

    14. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this.

      When Ubuntu copies Mac with a global menu (great on laptops, stupid on huge monitors), everybody's always talking about Fitt's so-called "Law".

      But where all that blathering about targets go when talking about the scroll bars? In Precise (Ubuntu 12.04), you're supposed to hover in a narrow area on the right, wait for the scrollbar handle to appear, and then grab and drag that with your mouse.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    15. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) The scroll bar gives a good visual representation of the size of the document and where I am in it. Perhaps people are just so accustomed to web sites that split articles into 30 pages to so they can load new banner ads on each page
      2) Sometimes it's faster to pull the scroll bar to a position in a long document than it is to scroll through with a gesture or scroll wheel.

    16. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You see this effect in many iPhone apps where they will have this absolutely beautiful graphics (and backgrounds) and you have no clue what the hell is an actual UI "widget" that you can push, slide, etc.

      We used to call this "maybe the cheese plant then..." Lots of management games came out where the main screen was a picture of your office, and you could click on the filing cabinet or the phone or whatever to access different functions. Of course it was never entirely obvious what was clickable so inevitably you ended up clicking on the cheese plant in the corner just in case it contained some non-obvious function.

      --
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    17. Re:WHY flat is BAD UI design by cavebison · · Score: 1

      3D Studio, Blender, etc, are HORRIBLE UI's simply because they *overload* the user with too *many* widgets.

      No, there you are falling into your own trap. There is no one UI paradigm to rule them all. For example, MS Office users were used to their toolbar, "cluttered" as it was with an entire row of 3d buttons. Heck, many users dared to even *add* buttons to the toolbar. But the UI choice was to *give people the choice* of what they wanted on the toolbar. MS had the right idea with toolbars - let people customise. Some wanted simple, others wanted complex.

      Now, of course, Office has this homogenised toolbar, which tries to be what a *designer* thought *everyone* should be happy with. And nary a single power user was happy with it. It was an example of people seeing Apple's iPhone and suddenly thinking, OMG we need to update out UI because, like, it's not "intuitive" enough, because Apple's is somehow "intuitive".

      Yes, Apple's is intuitive for a smartphone. But I ask you - how do define "intuitive" for complex software like MS Office, Photoshop, 3DS, SAP, etc? The answer is you CAN'T. The best you can do is let people *customise*. Why? Because it's not a friggin phone with little apps with simple workflows. People use productivity software DIFFERENTLY and will have different workflows, and the best UIs let them customise to their workflow.

      I agree with you about the "flat" approach, I think it's a fad and will eventually die. It's a weird time we're in - everyone's suddenly experimenting with UI, thanks to Apple seemingly scaring everyone into thinking their product isn't hip enough, with the result that UI is being dumbed down (as opposed to redesigned intelligently). It's all a bit silly and reactionary and I'll wait for the correction which will be Windows 9.

  77. They should use iOS metaphors by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

    Tell us, Apple: what does the ideal bookshelf or phone or calendar look like, so that I can most quickly recognize it? What's the physical real-world object that my brain should immediately recognize? What's the best metaphor?

    Prior to the sale, you say the answer to that question was your product! When I want to read a book, my eyes should be searching the room for an iPad.

    But once you get my money, you say it's something else, and I shouldn't think of an iPad when I want to read a book. I'm so confused.

    ;-)

    If you take this argument to its conclusion then all the icons on Apple products, should be pictures of Apple products. Click on the picture of an iPad to read a book. OTOH, click on the picture of an iPhone, to initiate interactive voice communication with another person. Click on the picture of an iPod, to listen to music. Click on the picture of faces within the frame of a Macintosh screen to launch a Finder window.

    That would actually be quite a hilarious prank. If anyone wants to steal this idea for their malware, you have my consent.

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  78. You can hyperlink in Calendar by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    So Apple skeuomorphs don't let you hyperlink on their calendar app.

    What are you talking about? I have hyperlinks in most of my calendar entries, and can use them quite easily on the iPad.

    The Skeuomorphism there is mostly about turning pages, not about some sort of inflexible ink-only entries.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  79. YES YES YES by azav · · Score: 1

    This completely hits home with me.

    Whenever a new version of the Mac OS comes out (that I pay money for), I spend time (that costs money) finding out how to turn shit OFF and set things back to what worked before. Useless startling animations, restoring removed functionality, it just pisses me off since it seems like change for change's sake, not to improve what already works.

    I DO NOT WANT little things unexpectedly flying across my screen. I do want soft reminders that fade in and fade out. Watching part of my screen animate 'til it finishes decreases my momentum and it's for NO beneficial purpose. It's animation for animation's sake, not to help me get my job done faster. The interface is nice enough as it is. DO NOT animate the expansion of a hierarchical view. Just display it.

    When too many things in the interface start moving as a result of my action, the interface becomes distracting rather than helpful.

    Apple's pushing of the bouncing elastic scrollbars from iOS (a touch driven device) to a mouse and keyboard driven device - and NOT giving us a public switch to turn it off - tells me that something is really broken in Apple's design and product department.

    Why the HELL, in Xcode are the side panels animated in an out? Why the HELL, does the disclosure triangle in your Xcode project files folders animate and slide down the drawing of all the files within that folder?

    DON'T ENTERTAIN THE DEVELOPERS. And most of all, if you insist on doing this, GIVE US PUBLIC SWITCHES TO TURN THIS CRAP OFF. It's a damn shame that Apple devotes manpower and money into putting these counterproductive animations into the GUI when people could be fixing bugs.

    --
    - Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
    1. Re:YES YES YES by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 1

      "Waste cycles by drawing trending 3D junk." Eudora, not entirely gone, and not entirely forgotten.

    2. Re:YES YES YES by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      You obviously didn't read the article. What his complaints are apply to all operating systems but Apple was picked out to draw attention to his stupid blog. But don't let me stop the circle jerk.

  80. As always Star Trek is ahead. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So basically what they want is for designs to move to something like LCARS from Star Trek? Minimalistic, efficient, very purpose oriented.

  81. People complaining about the wrong problem by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 1

    One reason engineers are enginerds is that they demand a logical consistency to their own idiolectic understanding of the map between presentation and reality. Which means they complain about things like faux-leather look, and not about things like random zoom that can't be easily undone, ribbon clutter and other actual usability problems which are now endemic in iOS and MacOS. About 2007 was the best user interface, and the slide to touch tablet, done badly, reminds me that we are in a period like the early days of the web where people are too focused on metaphor, and not enough on user flow.

  82. Re:Right-click? On a Mac laptop? lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... Really? I rarely see someone that bought a 2 button mouse for their Mac. In fact, I can only think of 2 people I know, both of whom are programmers, versus the about 20 people I know with Macs that use the mouse it came with. Maybe our experience with Mac users is very different from each other... except the exact same case follows to PC users I know, too, in that they tend not to replace what it came with (the exception is those in the fields of IT work, programming, and the like; another exception is the graphics designers I know, who tend to have more wacom tablets and the like, and the more devoted gamers, who tend to have gaming-centric mice) ...

  83. Re:Right-click? On a Mac laptop? lol by cellocgw · · Score: 1

    Ya got some pretty old laptops there, pardner. Better install SideTrack.

    --
    https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
  84. Obsolete icons by Animats · · Score: 1

    At the top of Slashdot pages is an icon with a TV screen with rounded corners and a "rabbit ears" antenna.

    The "floppy disk" icon for "Save" hasn't made sense in 20 years. Even then, it makes little sense; it ought to mean "copy to removable medium", not "save to local file".

    The use of binoculars for "search" never made much sense. For some time, I thought that icon meant "zoom". "Movie camera" icons still appear in some programs, with camera outlines not seen since the 1930s. But they sometimes mean "play" rather than "record". Images of cassette tapes still appear in some audio-related programs.

    Abstract icons hold up better. The circular arrow for "refresh" is fine. Symbols from international road signs are well recognized.

    Facebook seems to avoid this. The most dated icon on Facebook's main page is a tear-off calendar. Photoshop is at the other extreme, with a collection of icons meaningful only to people who did photographic film darkroom work.

    Too many people are trying to emulate Susan Kare's work of 30 years ago. Badly. Kare herself has moved on.

  85. Rob Pike wrote a screenplay for this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's the screenplay: http://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2011/09/we-open-in-well-lit-corporate.html

  86. Accidental deletion? by RoverDaddy · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure where this accidental deletion thing is coming from in all these comments. On my Windows computers, if I select a file and hit Del, I get a confirmation dialog asking whether I want to move the file to the Recycle Bin. I do not recall ever changing a setting to get this behavior. As far as I know it is the default.

    --
    RETURN without GOSUB in line 1050
  87. Re:Confusion??? What A Dumb Argument by afgam28 · · Score: 1

    Skeuomorphism is a good way to communicate what an application does at a high level (e.g. "this application is an ebook reader"), but it fails to communicate the details of how to use the application (e.g. "how to turn a page" or "how to close the book").

    Take iBooks for example. How do I turn a page? Do I swipe the paper or do I use the little scroll thing on the bottom? How do I close the book? With a real book, I'd grab the back cover and physically close it, but that doesn't translate to a tablet interface. The correct way to "close" the book is to tap the "Library" button on the top-left of the page. How does that make sense??

    A good user interface would make it clear which physical metaphors translate to the user interface, and which ones don't. But skeuomorphic interfaces send mixed signals about the affordance of an interface. That's why Windows 8's flat UI has (some) benefits - you can't manipulate a flat surface and it is obvious that any ornamentation is there to either 1) provide information or 2) provide a way to manipulate the UI in some way. If a UI element is not doing one of these two things, then it's an unnecessary distraction.

    Also IMO it just looks tacky. It reminds me of Microsoft Bob or Creative Writer. Yuck.

  88. Losers by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

    These people complain about things like how save icons look like floppies but offer no good solution. They just want people to think they should have to design something completely new for every little change because, funnily enough, that means work for them.

    And I also wouldn't take advice from someone whose site isn't exactly nice to look at.

  89. Re:Right-click? On a Mac laptop? lol by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

    Well, it would, if it didn't interpret half my right-clicks as left-clicks in a bizarre attempt to avoid admitting the merit of a second button.

    --
    Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  90. How dare they mess with my mouse pointer! by Ossifer · · Score: 1

    Seems that sometimes when the computing thing is running it's computations, my normal mouse pointer changes from an arrow to an hourglass!

    As I have never shot an arrow or kept time with an hourglass, HOW DARE THEY USE THESE ARCANE ANCIENT SKEWY METAPHORS!!!

  91. Autosave has caused me to lose data by tepples · · Score: 1

    The problem is, computer users are pretty nervous about stuff like that - oddly they expect their phones and such to save their document when they switch to another app, but get worried when their PC tries to do the same for them.

    The changes made to a document on a phone during one session are generally small enough that they can be undone by hand. Changes made to a document on a PC are often much greater and more sweeping, and people turn off auto-save for fear of losing the ability to revert to a last known good state. I've lost documents on a tablet computer that used an auto-save paradigm because it had no revert button.

  92. My three beefs with iOS design: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) Too much effort is wasted to protect me from myself.
    2) Concept of "file" is completely missing. There are no files! Only pictures, movies, songs.
    3) Those three extra buttons (Options, Back, Search) - should have been introduced _before_ Android.

  93. Just get the UI out of my way. by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

    It should look nice enough that it isn't jarringly ugly, handle transitions between tasks gracefully enough that it doesn't feel abrupt or like it's taking forever, and everything *I* want to do regularly (not what the designers think I'll want to do regularly) should be immediately accessible and in a position that I find most comfortable.

    Difficulty: I don't want to have to screw around configuring everything - I want my "smart" devices to be smart enough to figure out how I work and get better over time, but also not seem to randomly rearrange things without my realizing it.

    What I would love would be some kind of calibration application that I can use to do examples of very common tasks (write a letter, compose a text, create a spreadsheet, create an email + attachment, add/remove contacts from a distribution list, etc. and so on) and that will gauge how I do them in some fashion (maybe have me do them in 3-5 different ways), compare each step of that process for speed & efficiency on my part, and then create a generic profile that has every kind of basic UI function in it and that can be exported to any kind of application that would use some sort of standard skinning library so that I can have literally ANY piece of software I use work exactly the same way, so that ANY device I get in the future can automatically configure itself to a way I feel most comfortable working, without my having to bother setting it up appropriately. Kind of like how speech recognition software learns from you over time and gets trained.

    Let me create a profile for any given category of object or software. Video games should be able to import a specific control scheme, productivity apps should import a specific scheme for saving/loading/re-doing/undoing, and so on.

    That's probably a really difficult task, but that's what I want from my devices and software. I want things to do what I want, how I want in a way that feels best for *me*, even if some designer somewhere insists that their way might be better.

    And it isn't that I'm unwilling to learn new ways to do things, it's really more that I just want to not spend the time it takes to customize a new thing that's basically the same as an old thing unless there's some REALLY good reason that the old ways won't work anymore.

    --
    Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
  94. Skew-o-morphism by Compaqt · · Score: 1

    Forgive me for this, but I think the RDF plays a role here, too.

    Up until Apple "invented" skeuomorphism, it was viewed as hokey and stupid. Witness the reactions to MS Clippy and MS Bob.

    If Apple makes hokey real-world analogues in their UI, it's called skeuomorphic. If anybody else does it, it's called skew-o-morphic. When M$ did it, the reaction was: "Do they think we're stupid?" When Apple does it, it's "Oh, isn't it great, they really care about us as human beings and not just lusers."

    This is basically because the press eats up anything that Apple dishes out.

    Mark my words: Apple will "invent" (and patent) MS Bob, and be lauded for its genius for doing so.

    --
    I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
  95. Mountain Lion shrunk widgets by MmmmAqua · · Score: 1

    I believe the reason Apple has moved to things like the disappearing scroll bars, etc. has less to do with eye candy tricks than it does with an attempt to push users to a different form of interaction. iOS demonstrated that touch UIs with physical-like behaviors (bounce back, inertial scrolling, and so on) are effective and easy to learn. As an anecdotal example, since my 93-year old grandmother began using an iPad as her primary computer, my phone support burden has decreased to zero.

    Apple seems to be trying to extend this to OS X by pushing touch pads as primary interface devices. Apple sell more laptops and iOS devices by far than they do keyboard/mouse desktops, so they can assume the majority of their user base will be using touch devices. Hence the disappearing scroll bars - if you're two-finger inertial scrolling with a touch pad you don't really need scroll bars. They push desktop users to this interface by including a touch-based mouse with iMacs and Mac Pros and pushing the Magic Trackpad whenever you put an iMac or Mac Mini or Mac Pro in your cart at the online store.

    Basically, they've figured out how to make touch an effective interface across all their devices. On the computers, they can assume that your hands will be close to the keyboard and touch pad at all times, so they are tailoring the OS to those devices. Because you rarely need to click buttons anymore, anyway, Fitts' law can go hang as far as they are concerned. Keyboard shortcuts and gestures for all!

    Note that I am *not* commenting on the suitability or wisdom of this approach. I am simply proposing a motivation for it.

    --
    Arr! The laws of physics be a harsh mistress!
  96. Lame lame lame - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lame article - lame lame lame
    And on Android, due to poor screens when placed on low brightness - fur can be seen around the edges.
    The same icons have been around now for such a long time, and I can't complain about a single one (yet)
    Move on...the designers that Apple chose however, are making a nice tidy sum - so who cares....iPhone 5 sold
    out in records number, just as the next iPad mini will, the iMac X, and so on.....

  97. Windows 8 is Revolutionary! Really! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, because they have a new shell that most users will disable the first chance they get.

    Mac OS X used to have "Front Row" too. It doesn't mean it is the same as iOS.

    Full screen applications only make sense in certain areas, and the core of the OS itself it not changing as drastically as people would have you believe. It's still Windows NT.

  98. Lack of Alt- Sequences by adobelis · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My biggest problem with OSX has always been the lack of Alt- sequences -- key-stroke sequences that allow you to access menu items without touching the mouse. As a power-user of at least two productivity applications (Word and Excel), I have forever avoided *unnecessary* mouse usage by memorizing my favorite sequences like Alt-e-s-t (Paste->Special->Formats). My use of these applications is, frankly, bewilderingly fast (pat, pat), in the eyes of users who use drop-down menus to access these same functions. If you have never seen someone use Excel without ever touching the mouse, you should: you will learn something about user experience and interface efficiency.
    In *some* previous versions of OSX you could turn on alt-sequences. Others, not -- I bought a used MacBook Pro in 2005 and couldn't figure out how to get these to work after ~10 hours of research, so I resold it a month later. I frankly don't use Macs enough to know whether it's easy to do this now, but from casual use I know that it isn't available as a default, which is silly, whereas it is on Windows. And thus Windows encourages developers to include these sequences, which is a real boon for every app where they work.
    Mice are great, but they are slow! Why would you ever want to aim three clicks when you could type four letters? Imagine if you had to type text in Word, Excel, VS or Eclipse by clicking an on-screen keyboard with your mouse... you'd probably just give up and write with pen and paper (or a manual typewriter), and hire some low-wage laborers to do all that slow, boring clicking. That's how I feel when I use Excel on a Mac.

  99. The fox always say that the grapes are sour! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The title is just a pour translation of some popular words of wisdom from my country. The meaning is that being too short to reach the grapes the fox say that they are sour just to feed her ego.
    Now if those famous designers just observed now this "issue" is just enough to show their proffesionalism. Apple is doing this for reaaly long time. Actually beside the fact that indeed the Appple computers and OS are far better than same PC in all aspects from pure design to performance is really hard to argue. You can argue that are expensive or that you don't like their design and it's OK. But this?
    Sorry. I'm in computers since the time of Z80 computers passing through early pre-pc to pc from x86 era and so on. Since begining windows was trying ( unsuccesfully) to copy or imitate their look and feel. I don't know how many still rememberthe hacks and add-ons to make the Windows at least looking a bit as Macs. Linux also had along of their history attempts to emulate this look and feel More succesful than windows anyhow.
    Turning back to the subject what is wrong in this? If the icons or other elements really look nice and they are part of a whole good looking design concept and users like this where is the problem?
    And if the comparison is going so far to the new Metro interface style of Windows 8 I must say that those guys probably are blind or they feel that the grapes are really sour. I use both Windows (from windows 3.0) and Macs (recently) and I must say that I feel more confortable with the last ones. Everything seems on place, awsome functionality despite the simplicity and everything in really nice and beautiful style. I like windows 7 but 8 is, at least for my taste, awful. It looks as Steve Balmer and this in my hierarchy is somwhere very low somwhere near to Apotheker.