Notch Won't Certify Minecraft For Windows 8

MojoKid writes "The backlash against Windows 8 from various developers continues, but this time a game's creator isn't just expressing discontent. Notch, the developer behind smash hit Minecraft, has declared that he won't be working with Microsoft to certify Minecraft for Windows 8. Note that this doesn't mean Minecraft won't run on Windows 8. The certification process in question is Microsoft's mandatory rules for submitting content to the Windows game store. In order to be listed there, an application must be Metro-compatible and conform to a laundry list of other conditions. The real problem with Windows 8 is that it locks ARM users into a second class experience. If you buy an x86 tablet, you can download programs from SourceForge, GitHub, or any file mirror. If you're an ARM user, you can download programs from the Microsoft store and that's it. The bifurcated permission structure is the problem, and it makes WinRT tablets categorically impossible to recommend for anyone who values the ability to install whatever software they please."

Comments

Well...

[p0p0]

Windows being Windows, I don't forsee any real future issues with getting your own apps on the ARM version. Just the nature of Windows will probably make it much easier to work around, and if the userbase grows enough it will move along that much faster. Microsoft is trying the walled garden technique the Apple has going, but I don't foresee it being as effective or foolproof as Apple's.

Sometimes I feel like Microsoft si kind of flopping around like a fish on land when it comes to tablets. Even though they technically had a headstart, they've only just started their move to tablets and it feels rushed. The current release cycle of good > bad > good > bad will most likely continue and Windows 8 will flop. At least I hope it does and it will force them to rethink their stupid Start menu removal, amongst other things.

Re:Well...

[ravenknight]

At least I hope it does and it will force them to rethink their stupid Start menu removal, amongst other things.

Yes, I agree that It's a bit pissy of microsoft to drop the friggin start menu after all these years without any kind of transition period -- or with anything that has an ounce of useability in it.

There is a 3rd party program that adds the start menu back to the taskbar, http://www.stardock.com/products/start8/

Just a happy user (note: it's a tad buggy when it comes to opening files from jump lists, but I hear that might be fixed internally).

Re:Well...

[wonkey_monkey]

I would recommend Launchy for a different experience. I don't have to go near "All Programs," and only rarely need to open the Start Menu at all these days. Most beautifully, it rapidly learns your shortcuts so even if you install something that's a better match for what you've typed, you still get the program you expected.

Re:Well...

[arisvega]

Microsoft is trying the walled garden technique the Apple has going, but I don't foresee it being as effective or foolproof as Apple's.

That. I like it when I read a story's description, go to the comments, and the first post is almost exactly what I had in mind: that's the insightful Slashdot I enjoy.

So this is what I believe this news is about: Microsoft wanting in on some of that Apple-flavoured enchantment of which the necessary ingredient is simultaneous control (or at least influence during the making of) on both software and hardware. I believe Notch is merely a catalyst here (albeit a potent one), since Minecraft's enormous success with essentially zero advertizing through mainstream channels, the innovative way Mojang is run and his 33 years of age has made him one of the most closely monitored players in the field.

Re:Well...

[JanneM]

"I don't forsee any real future issues with getting your own apps on the ARM version. "

Why would a developer bother with an ARM version, though? With all the restrictions and the high likelihood that most users will be on X86, it doesn't look like a good way to spend your resources.

Re:Well...

[Threni]

> since Minecraft's enormous success with essentially zero advertizing through mainstream channels, the
> innovative way Mojang is run and his 33 years of age has made him one of the most closely monitored players
> in the field.

No, it's just the success of the game that matters. If it had been as successful bu thad advertising, was run differently and the guy was older/younger and there'd be no difference. If the game had bombed then all that other stuff wouldn't have made it any more interesting.

Re:Well...

[MacGyver2210]

Yep, clearly Apple is doing everything right and Microsoft has no idea. That's why the market share is so in favor of Apple over Microsoft.

http://www.bgr.com/2012/09/03/windows-os-x-market-share-august-2012/

Congratulations, they passed the one version of Windows even Microsoft can't recommend to anyone.

Re:Well...

[Shining Celebi]

I'm not totally clear in how that's different from Windows 7/Windows 8. You can press the start button and begin typing the name of your program or document and it looks like it does the exact same thing - although Windows 8 does annoyingly cover your entire screen to do so.

For example, to open Firefox, I don't have to do anything but Win + F + Enter. Almost everything I use is no more than five key presses away.

Re:Well...

[Chewbacon]

Hell, the reason I still use Windows/Linux is because there are no walls. So when is the next guy with the know-how gonna get fed up and write a new OS?

Re:Well...

[wonkey_monkey]

I can't type "shop" into the Windows 7 Start Menu and have it open Photoshop, although it does manage to offer me "Microsoft Visual C++ Express 2010" when I type "vi" in the hope of running Virtualdub. Having selected Virtualdub, it still puts VC++ at the top of the list next time I type "vi". Launchy, on the other hand, has already learned that "VC" means Visual C++, "V" means Vuze, and "vi" or "dub" means Virtualdub.

I personally don't use Launchy to open Firefox - "f" shows me Filezilla. I have to type "fir" before Firefox even shows in Launchy's list, but once I've done that once, it then shows up in the list when I type "fi". If I then launch that, it will show up in the list when I type just "f", and after that it becomes the first choice for "f". But I don't want that, so I just type "f", select Filezilla before pressing enter, and I'm back to how I like it.

Launchy's also a lot quicker than the Start Menu - on my machine anyway - because it's not trying to search through my Messenger conversations or stuff like that (or, potentially embarrassingly as I have just discovered, my recently opened files!)

Launchy is also, thanks to its plugin support, a very convenient calculator.

Re:Well...

[UnknowingFool]

There might be far more consumers with the ARM version as it is cheaper. Businesses may get the x86 version for compatibility but some apps like games are bought by more consumers.

Re:Well...

[Bing Tsher E]

The cheap ARM tablets are aimed at killing either the Android or the iPad platform, though. If the Microsoft Surface platform suceeds and becomes either the first or second place tablet platform, there will be hundreds of millions of less than $300 Windows8/ARM devices out there quite rapidly.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

it does manage to offer me "Microsoft Visual C++ Express 2010" when I type "vi" in the hope of running Virtualdub.

Try ln -s /usr/bin/emacs /usr/tbin/vi.

Re:Well...

[lilfields]

Actually for x86 (non-metro apps) there is no "walled garden," Microsoft just has a centralized marketplace...but in no way does that bar you from having your downloads elsewhere, it just means you're listed in the app marketplace, which makes you more visible. This is actually a plus for MOST app developers that are just hoping you'll see their link on CNET. Notch is just being an idiot.

Re:Well...

[erroneus]

Microsoft being Microsoft, they can't write to anything other than x86. They tried with Windows NT supporting other architectures and it just didn't work out for them. They failed miserably with Windows XP 64 bit too. So here they go again with their half-assed attempt at supporting anohter architecture and it's underwhelming the marketplace which has grown to love and expect the ARM. Microsoft will not get off their Win32 asses and make serious changes. Their myopic style will eventually put them in the same league with RIM. For a while, Microsoft will be "business only/primary" and then they'll fade away.

They WILL NOT CHANGE. At first, it made sense not to change... not wanting to offend developers. Now they are offending developers anyway and look what's about to happen?

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

win + f + enter.

I totally see windows 8 working on tablets. sure.

Re:Well...

[hairyfeet]

While I agree Windows without the ability to run Windows programs is fucking POINTLESS what's sad is everybody getting their panties in a wad about "ZOMFG WinRT won't be able to download anywhere but the appstore....just like Apple, which everybody camps out around the block to buy ZOMFG!" oh the irony is thick and juicy when it comes to everyone having a fit over THAT.

What I wanna ask this guy is "Where the FUCK were you man when Apple was pulling the very same shit? I was pointing out it was a walled garden and sucked ass and wouldn't have their products for free because of it, where are YOUR complaints and pledges not to buy Apple Notch?"

Double standards are double standards and this is NO different than what Apple does, and considering that pretty much the entire Ballmer tenure as head of MSFT has been to see what Apple does and then copy it poorly (Zune,Kin,Sidekick) is this REALLY surprising that they would ape the living shit out of Apple? After all Apple is the biggest company in the world, people just throw money at them and their appstore, why shouldn't MSFT ape somebody that makes money?

If you don't like the MSFT appstore please, join with me in not buying anything WinRT. But at least have the honor and decency of not being a hypocrite and boycott all Apple products that likewise use a locked down appstore as well. I hereby pledge that I Hairyfeet will NEVER own a WinPhone, WinTab,iPhone, or iPad. Not if you were to give it to me , not if I can buy one and get one free, I will not take them on a boat, I will not take them with a goat, I will not take appstores in a can, I will NOT take them Sam I am!

Re:Well...

[Waccoon]

Just because you can hack around a policy doesn't mean that policy should be widely accepted. I don't want my support status, or even legal status, reduced to blind luck.

You can crack a game to get it to run properly and hardly anyone will know, but if a business starts getting in involved with hacks and tricks just to get their damn software to function, they could be staring into a potential lawsuit... provided they're unlucky enough to get caught.

I get really pissed when people say walled gardens aren't a big deal because it's wicked easy to get around them. Of course they're a big deal... to certain types of people. Some people are unlucky enough to get slapped with million dollar lawsuits because they got caught downloading a file. If 99.9% of people don't get caught, does that mean it's not a big deal if that small percentage practically have their lives destroyed by chance? Will the majority still stick up for the rights of the minority, or is it every person for himself?

How to get around the policy is not the problem. The policy is the problem, and people certainly should be more vocal about it.

Re:Well...

[shutdown -p now]

I think GP rather meant, why would the developer go to all the hassle of making his app to run on ARM but outside of the Store and its sandbox. Even assuming the existence of some kind of jailbreak for Windows RT, there won't be a large target market there, since most consumers wouldn't know of it or care much for it, and would stick to the Store. On the other hand, most people who would know about it, would just get an x86 device in the first place because it can do more and they don't have to hack it.

Re:Well...

[shutdown -p now]

Those apps won't even run on ARM devices, however.

Re:Well...

[shutdown -p now]

Microsoft will not get off their Win32 asses and make serious changes.

Have you actually seen the difference between Win32, and the new APIs that you have to use to have your app run on ARM? It's a completely different thing.

Re:Well...

[MBraynard]

Nice to see Stardock still pumping out handy Windows utilities as well as the occasional time-sucking 4X game.

To this day, I still use Multiplicity on several machines to access computers right next to each other without using a KVM or multiple mice/keyboards.

Re:Well...

[JanneM]

I meant what the other answer said; why create an ARM version at all unless you put it on their store.

But you raise an interesting point: If high-profile apps such as Minecraft are available for x86 but not ARM, what are the chances of the ARM platform ever taking off? Anybody who plays Minecraft will now effectively no longer consider Windows 8 and ARM. If more important apps go missing there may never be enough customers to make an ARM specific Windows ecosystem viable.

Re:Well...

[Guy Harris]

Yep, clearly Apple is doing everything right and Microsoft has no idea. That's why the market share is so in favor of Apple over Microsoft.

http://www.bgr.com/2012/09/03/windows-os-x-market-share-august-2012/

Congratulations, they passed the one version of Windows even Microsoft can't recommend to anyone.

No, you didn't disprove him. The posting to which you were replying said "Microsoft is trying the walled garden technique the Apple has going, but I don't foresee it being as effective or foolproof as Apple's." and "Sometimes I feel like Microsoft si kind of flopping around like a fish on land when it comes to tablets.", neither of which are referring to desktop/laptop machines (where neither Windows nor OS X offer a complete walled garden - no, Mountain Lion and Lion 10.7.5 aren't walled gardens unless you crank up the Gatekeeper level to "App Store only" and never left-click to override it) and "The current release cycle of good > bad > good > bad will most likely continue and Windows 8 will flop. At least I hope it does and it will force them to rethink their stupid Start menu removal, amongst other things.", which I suspect is thinking of W8 going like Vista where most users with W7 sticking with W7 rather than upgrading, and perhaps hardware vendors offering W7 as well as W8, not thinking that OS X will have a bigger market share than Windows.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

give the hackers 3 months.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah bloody, hell he will sell it with apple ios but not Microsoft windows 8, and his reason is because of a walled garden.

Re:Well...

[hairyfeet]

Exactly I didn't hear Notch say a fucking peep, not a single peep, about Minecraft on iOS, even though it is EXACTLY THE SAME as what MSFT is doing with WinRT.

I may hate appstores and walled gardens but 1 thing I hate 1000 times worse is a damned hypocrite and that is EXACTLY what Notch is. He doesn't have the balls to say boo to Apple for fear of losing his iChecks yet he'll scream about the WinRT appstore. Notch you are a hypocrite and an asshole, please go fuck off now.

Re:Well...

[eWarz]

www.stardock.com -- grab start8 and never look at metro again.

Re:Well...

[toddestan]

The hackers will make ARM run code compiled for x86?

Re:Well...

[lowlymarine]

But you raise an interesting point: If high-profile apps such as Minecraft are available for x86 but not ARM, what are the chances of the ARM platform ever taking off?

I've always assumed that was kind of the point. Windows RT strikes me as the "embrace" phase of the Wintel Master Plan To Deal With ARM®.

Re:Well...

[bUSHwEEd]

I'm also using Windows 8 as my primary desktop OS, and without anything installed, when I want to launch Visual Studio, i just hit the Windows Key and start typing "stu", press enter, and Bam, VS opens. Windows 8 also indexes control panel items, files, and i can launch apps that integrate search directly and resume the search. For example, i want to email a friend, i type the beginning of their name, select people, and instantly their contact card is brought up. The new "Start screen" is considerably better and faster than Windows 7's start menu.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Rename your "Photoshop" shortcut to "Photo shop" and it will work when you type 'shop'. Windows' search only matches from the start of each word.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Notch is your typical trendster, if you think about and look at him. Of course he isn't going to attack Apple and jump on the Microshafting, he would be putting himself at risk of not being, "cool" anymore. Just ask Apple people why they use apples, very rarely do you get intelligent answers. Every time I am forced to use one of those pieces of shit, I just wonder how people deal with it. The desktop set-up in apple is so fucking jumbled and ugly, shit is so hard to find, and right click, really? Just had to be different, I suppose.

Notch wouldn't go and throw himself under the bus like that. Especially a bus filled with plaid laden, converse shoe attached, black-rimmed glasses wearing hipsters ready to attack anything non-apple.

Re:Well...

[ifrag]

The hackers will make ARM run code compiled for x86?

Well, it's perhaps not that bad. All you need is a Java VM that runs on ARM with OpenGL working. Although if these devices only have OpenGL ES that might be a problem.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't speak for everyone, but this is why I have never and will never buy an Apple product. It really SUCKS that MS is trying to do the same walled garden shit.

I'm not sure how your comment is +5 Insightful, since you make the mistake of assuming that everyone is quietly buying Apple walled-gardens and bashing MS's walled gardens.

You would think

[wbr1]

That Ballmer would understand that a large portion of windows past success was due in part to the fact that software for the system was available anywhere. Now upon porting to a new platform, he wants to emulate apples walled garden, which only worked because of vendor lock in and the desirbility of the device. It won't work. Android is proving that an open market gains more market share. With at least 3 other options (iOS, Android, and regular windows), users will likely stick with those platforms unless tricked or forced, and MS doesnt have the power in the mobile market to force.
So now there are at least 2 aspects of Win8 that should fail, the interface, and the locked down ARM version
Disclaimer: Sent from android phone.

Re:You would think

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an indie game developer. I'll compile and test on Win XP, Vista, Win7 (besides Mac, Linux & Android -- hell, I've got an experimental BSD branch), but I am boycotting Windows 8, including the x86 version expressly because of the ARM version.

I'd rather only release on Android and other Linux boxen (and go back to construction laborer part time) than encourage anyone, especially MS, that a locked down operating system is OK. (Note: iOS isn't up there -- It's dead to me)

Re:You would think

[wisnoskij]

This, 100 times this.
Regardles of what gui you perfer or if you think Linux is a pile of crap or amazing, the main reason to use windows is because it has all the software and an OS is primarilly just a tool to run software.

Re:You would think

[home-electro.com]

My thoughts precisely. They see app store as a new revenue stream, and they want to use it.

Re:You would think

[Charliemopps]

Yes, Microsoft seems to forget that they absolutely destroyed Apple in the 90s... and that's because of the features Windows shared with Linux, not the features it shared with Apple. They are going in the exact wrong direction and will lose out big time. It's funny that it seems like the entire world knows what Microsoft should do, and yet Microsoft seems hell bent on not doing it.

Re:You would think

[MightyYar]

That Ballmer would understand that a large portion of windows past success was due in part to the fact that software for the system was available anywhere.

Agreed. I think there is room for someone to make money on the low-end (Walmart) as well as on the high-end (Tiffany). Just because Walmart's gross margins are low doesn't make them a bad investment.

Android is proving that an open market gains more market share

Android is a huge impediment for MS. MS can't charge for an OS and remain competitive with Android, which is free. This screws up their Windows model. I think they are fishing around for another model. Apple, at this point, still makes bucketloads of money on actual hardware - the walled garden money was almost an accident. MS looks like they are trying both approaches... trying to out-Apple Apple. They did this successfully in the 90s and they have good revenue and cash, so I won't dismiss them out of hand... but the conditions are very different now.

In the 80s and 90s, PC manufacturers were actually paying money for an OS or spending a ton on in-house R&D of their own OS. There was no competitive free option. Now you can pick up an Android tablet for under $100 - there is quite literally no room for licensing fees, and the open source nature of Android lets companies who want some control (e.g. Amazon, B&N) cost-effectively modify it rather than pay MS to modify Windows.

I'm glad I'm not in charge :) If I were I'd probably create a tablet/phone spinoff that re-uses Windows technology, similar to the way Apple re-used OSX for the iPhone. But the application environment would be completely different, and no attempt would be made at merging the two. The spinoff wouldn't try to emulate Apple's model, but instead I would team up with B&N, Walmart, K-Mart, Sears or some other giant retailer where I could piggyback on their retail presence and try to make money on content sales and ads. The margins wouldn't even approach Windows desktop, but that's why I'd spin it off to protect the margins on MSFT proper, and it would compete seriously with Android. It would also be important to separate the low-margin business culture from the swimming-in-cash mentality at the rest of the company.

Re:You would think

[Anonymous Coward]

Great less competition!

As an indie developer, Windows 8's app store is a boon.

Re:You would think

[westlake]

I'm an indie game developer. I am boycotting Windows 8, including the x86 version expressly because of the ARM version.

iOS isn't up there -- It's dead to me.

I'll be blunt here and say that this isn't how the professional developer --- the for-profit enterprise --- looks at their potential markets.

The Linux developer who touts the convenience and safety of his distro's repository isn't in a position to complain when other operating systems move in the same direction.

The trusted OS-branded app store has become the norm in mobile.

The geek may side-load from other sources, but you are not going to pay the light bill and the rent serving that crowd. The numbers just aren't there.

Re:You would think

[sglewis100]

I don't think they forgot that they won big in the 90's. They realize, however, that things are different in the portable market. Apple won big against Microsoft with music players, phones and tablets. And their notebooks are doing extremely well compared to historic marketshare. It is wise not to treat ARM tablets like Intel desktops and 2012 like 1992.

Re:You would think

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be blunt here and say that this isn't how the professional developer --- the for-profit enterprise --- looks at their potential markets.

No, that is how they motivate their decisions, for the way they actually look at it.. well.. Dilbert isn't that far off the mark.

Re:You would think

[MattJD]

The Linux developer who touts the convenience and safety of his distro's repository isn't in a position to complain when other operating systems move in the same direction.

I have absolutely no problem with app stores having a curated listing of items. Its when that stores is the only method I can get software I have an issue. That's why I don't mind Google's Play Store (for apps), while its the default on my phone I can easily enable side-loading of apps on to it.

And that's exactly how my Linux distro's work as well ...

Re:You would think

[Microlith]

The Linux developer who touts the convenience and safety of his distro's repository isn't in a position to complain when other operating systems move in the same direction.

This sentiment is incorrect, and I'll let you figure out why.

The geek may side-load from other sources, but you are not going to pay the light bill and the rent serving that crowd.

You may not, but what do you get from attacking them like Apple and Microsoft do?

Re:You would think

[Luke727]

If that's your stance that's fine, but Windows ARM is just as locked down as iOS; if you're going to boycott Windows x86 due to Windows ARM why would you not also boycott OS X due to iOS?

Re:You would think

[ColdWetDog]

The biggest difference between now and then is the individual consumer. Windows was never a big money maker in the home market and, objectively, was never very successful. Viruses, malware, borked installations, the constant jokes about the technically declined. What Apple has managed to pull off is the gizmo-as-appliance. Don't know what a file is? No problem. Can't handle control sequences? No problem.

The walled-garden approach is brilliant for these people. They NEED the curated experience. They don't want to mess with the stupid things and don't want to put a lot of effort into understanding the gizmo.

Microsoft took over the Enterprise space (and makes tons of money doing so) by being flexible and working well enough while giving developers a more-or-less standard application platform. We tend to bitch and whine about it but when you go into your local bank branch you don't see Linux and you don't see OS X.

So the whole world is a bit different. Consumers are buying gizmos at an unprecedented pace and it's not the gizmo that Microsoft has been selling. They'd love to get that space back. As usual, they are going about it in their confusing and uncoordinated dazed-rhinocerous fashion. Perhaps when the ketamine wears off ....

Re:You would think

[myrdos2]

Of course, when your favorite software doesn't appear in the repository, you can compile it from source... I wonder if compiling from source will be the next big thing on Windows ARM machines, or if they'll somehow lock that down as well.

Re:You would think

[penix1]

The Linux developer who touts the convenience and safety of his distro's repository isn't in a position to complain when other operating systems move in the same direction.

The differences are HUGE. for one, distros with repositories don't limit you to only their repository then charge you every time you use it. Microsoft locking it down has nothing to do with convenience or safety and everything to do with control of who develops for the platform. Sure, you can develop for it but if you don't use their store, probably at a cost, your program never sees the light of day.

Re:You would think

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be blunt here and say that this isn't how the professional developer --- the for-profit enterprise --- looks at their potential markets.

We know exactly how those "professional" developers look at their market.

http://games.slashdot.org/story/12/09/28/2144257/ea-makes-minor-tweaks-to-fifa-12-for-the-wii-releases-it-as-fifa-13

They, and anyone who tries to emulate them, can get fucked.

Re:You would think

[Bing Tsher E]

Will the Microsoft toolchain be availabe in the App Store? Probably not. Will Microsoft allow a free toolchain, i.e. the Gnu one? Likely not. Will GPL'd software even be possible?

Re:You would think

[sjames]

The Linux developer who touts the convenience and safety of his distro's repository isn't in a position to complain when other operating systems move in the same direction.

Sure he is, if his repo can be bypassed by the user and the other guy's can't be. The Debian repo is great. It is full of useful apps and has security auditing and updates. If the Debian community lost it's mind and somehow made Debian refuse to install apps from other sources, I'd switch in an instant.

The trusted OS-branded app store has become the norm in mobile.

So has side loading. Meanwhile, there are significantly different rules for placing an app into the various app-stores. Some are fairly easy and some are a pain. Some are just one big risk waiting to happen.

Re:You would think

[Microlith]

I can also install an arbitrary package, or add a repo I approve of.

I wonder if compiling from source will be the next big thing on Windows ARM machines, or if they'll somehow lock that down as well.

If it's like Apple, they'll charge you $99 for the ability to load a development package for 120 days. I suspect it'll be a little more relaxed, but you still won't be able to give installable packages to people.

Re:You would think

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the funny thing. If you don't know what a file is, then how are you saving documents or photos? You MUST know what it is, especially since you've necessarily installed software on it.

Mobile phones have been doing curated stores for years, mostly through the mobile browser (how many phones come with a "get more games" under the games menu? Practically all of mine did).

They don't NEED the curated experience. Moreover, they don't NEED a locked in experience. If you don't know what a file manager is, why are you installing it on your device? If one application is intuitive to you, why not just remove it and install another? These are basic things anyone should know how to do.

You're right, consumers are buying gizmos at an unprecedented pace: Mostly Windows desktops (70+% desktop marketshare) and Android devices (60%+) (worldwide numbers).

Re:You would think

[MightyYar]

Windows was never a big money maker in the home market and, objectively, was never very successful.

Yikes, I have to disagree with you there. They got a piece of nearly every PC sold over 20 years. Every single PC. The home PC market is large enough that this has been a stunning amount of money. It's been successful enough that I can say "Every home in the US has a Windows machine" and only be off by single-digit percentage numbers. The only reason they aren't still lighting cigars with hundred dollar bills is simply that the PC market stopped growing.

I mostly agree with the rest of your post.

Re:You would think

[toriver]

MS can't charge for an OS and remain competitive with Android, which is free.

Why not, they have remained competitive with Linux for years.

Re:You would think

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone standing up for what they believe in makes you not professional? There is more to life than the quest for profit.

Re:You would think

[Charliemopps]

Microsoft didn't enter the portable market until the Zune. And it was just stupid on their part to get involved.

Re:You would think

[MightyYar]

Because Android is already the established OS "reseller". When they took over the world with Windows, DOS was the established OS reseller. They were able to kill that by simply bundling it with Windows. Linux didn't enter the fray until DOS and then Windows were already well established, and by then MS was abusing their monopoly such that even IBM couldn't muscle in to the market, despite having nearly 100% compatibility with the Windows apps of the day.

Re:You would think

[dbIII]

Microsoft will still be fine if their ARM platform doesn't sell. They can afford the risk. It sucks when they no longer have to care about making a good product.

Re:You would think

[dbIII]

Microsoft took over the Enterprise space

Not really, they just encouraged the rise of the SAN and NAS because MS Windows file servers suck so badly. Also until virtualisation an MS Windows server meant a dedicated machine for every single task - even right down to services that use trivial resources like DNS. The exception is MS Exchange where one server is not enough to reliably do the job even if you only have users in the hundreds. They made money out of the "enterprise" space but never put enough effort in to be able to take it over.

Re:You would think

[shutdown -p now]

There are actually ways to sideload apps on Win8, they're just not as straightforward and prominent as "Allow other app sources" checkbox on Android.

See, Win8 is somewhat different from iOS/Android in that to write apps for it, you have to run your developer tools on it - at least for the time being. Which in turn means that there has to be a way to deploy and run a freshly compiled app when you're developing one. And sure it is - the OS will let you do just that when you have a developer license activated on that machine.

The good part is that Win8 developer licenses are free (there is also license to publish to the Store which isn't free, but it's separate). Furthermore, you don't need any developer tools to obtain one - the command line tool that does it ships with the OS.

The bad part is that it's an online activation scheme, so it phones home when you ask for it. The worse part is that it expires after a while (seems to be a month for most people), at which point you have to renew it to re-enable the ability to run all those apps. It's still free, but it's certainly not very convenient.

Re:You would think

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on your field. In astronomy, and probably most fields of physics, the Linux version comes first, followed by the Mac version, with Windows a distant third.

Re:You would think

[Richy_T]

Too true. Get in bed with Microsoft. What could possibly go wrong?

Re:You would think

[westlake]

And that's exactly how my Linux distro's work as well ...

If a program isn't packaged for your distribution, how easy will be for anyone but the true blue Linux geek to install it --- or even to discover that it exists?

Ubuntu developers set as a goal:

"...there should be one obvious mechanism for installing, removing, and updating software in Ubuntu, with a self-evident name and an interface anyone can use. There should be a coordinated system for developers and enthusiasts to improve the usefulness of descriptions and other metadata for software packages. The software updates interface should be honed to maximize the voluntary installation of updates across the millions of computers on which Ubuntu is installed. And projects and vendors whose software is packaged for Ubuntu should be encouraged to provide links to their software's presence in the Software Store, instead of command-line installation instructions.

Ubuntu Software Center

This reads equally well as a mission statement for the the Kindle, Android smartphone, Win 8 tablet, and the iOS mobile device.

It is only a half-step away from an admission that the "obvious" mechanism --- the increasingly familiar, easy to use and trusted app store --- is about to become the most significant --- perhaps the only significant --- distribution channel for computer software and services.

Re:You would think

[MattJD]

And that's exactly how my Linux distro's work as well ...

If a program isn't packaged for your distribution, how easy will be for anyone but the true blue Linux geek to install it --- or even to discover that it exists?

Well discoverability and installation of software outside the more approved channels is a challenge, its only that way because no standard has been created. Its not that its made intentionally bad, its that the old method (download source code, compile, install, run) is showing its age for people "who just want it to work"(tm). If you have an easy solution to this problem, there are many people who would be interested (myself included). There are lots of solutions out there trying to solve the problem, but they all have their individual issue.

Ubuntu developers set as a goal:

"...there should be one obvious mechanism for installing, removing, and updating software in Ubuntu, with a self-evident name and an interface anyone can use. There should be a coordinated system for developers and enthusiasts to improve the usefulness of descriptions and other metadata for software packages. The software updates interface should be honed to maximize the voluntary installation of updates across the millions of computers on which Ubuntu is installed. And projects and vendors whose software is packaged for Ubuntu should be encouraged to provide links to their software's presence in the Software Store, instead of command-line installation instructions.

Ubuntu Software Center

This reads equally well as a mission statement for the the Kindle, Android smartphone, Win 8 tablet, and the iOS mobile device.

It is only a half-step away from an admission that the "obvious" mechanism --- the increasingly familiar, easy to use and trusted app store --- is about to become the most significant --- perhaps the only significant --- distribution channel for computer software and services.

Um ... And that's a problem because? I never once stated that an app store is bad. Having an official distribution channel, that's built to high standards is good IMO. Its when a company (or group of people) decide it will be the only channel allowed that I have an issue.

I haven't investigated the Ubuntu Software Center (not an Ubuntu user), so I don't know how it works. That being said as long as I can get its software for whatever distro I choose, and I run whatever software I choose on Ubuntu, its fine by me. And the same goes for Kindles, Androids, Win 8, and IOS.

Re:You would think

[Keen Anthony]

So using say, Visual Studio 2010+, I will be able to target a WP8 device (Surface, Novia 920), produce an executable for it, and install it to any device without first getting a license, or do you mean only the devices I have present to work on? I

Re:You would think

[shutdown -p now]

I was talking about Win8, not WP8 - two entirely different things. I don't know anything about how WP8 developer licensing works.

To target Win8 (e.g. Surface), you need VS 2012 - 2012 won't do - itself running on Win8. This is sufficient to let you build an unsigned appx package. You can then copy that package to another device, but to install an unsigned package there you need to have the (free, but requiring online activation) developer license active on that device. So you'd basically have to acquire, and regularly renew, a developer license on any device on which you "sideload" apps like that.

And, yes, theoretically the person who produces the package, and the person who deploys it, can be two different people - as there's no way to tell with an unsigned package.

Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[Anonymous Coward]

So, the Transformer Infinity (Quad core, 1920x1200 screen, dock with keyboard, SD card reader, USB ports etc.) has Android and is an open general purpose computer with access to a million apps.
And Windows RT, can't run squat, has a smaller screen, bigger price, AND ISN'T EVEN OPEN?

Seriously, at some point you just gotta sack Ballmer. I know he'll point to his success in raising prices on stuff he didn't create, but bo-bo the monkey manager could do that. Ballmer's an idiot! If the Windows 8 tablet isn't good enough, then they should focus on making that better, why introduce a Window RT to fuzzy the picture and split development effort. Nobodies going to write for that tablet because it won't sell.
It'll drag Windows 8 tablets down with it.

Re:Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what looks even better? Anything other than a fucking tablet.

Re:Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep Ballmer. He makes software news funny.

Re:Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[ZosX]

I have the Transformer Tablet with keyboard and, while yes it is very, very useful it really still isn't a general purpose computing device. You can run linux on it in a chroot, but that only gives you X over VNC. Its possible to evetually dual boot it since it boots linux already anyways. People have been doing this one the prime. In that context it is actually fairly impressive and had 3d acceleration...though I don't think sound works yet. From the videos I've seen it performs much like a netbook running linux. Like a 2nd generation netbook. Most of the apps for android are optimized for phones, so that is a downside. There aren't a huge number of productivity apps for android on tablets. There are some nice apps though. Honestly I use this more than my notebook now. The screen has the same resolution roughly and is smaller so it looks better. For internet communication and web browsing this thing is pretty awesome. Also I am photographer and I can just plug in an external usb powered mini drive and dump my sd cards straight to the drive pretty quickly. Ghost commander works well as a file manager too. I have the bootloader unlocked and I'm running the hydro jellybean rom atm. Its still a little buggy and the i/o is awful right now, but its still a very fast and usable tablet. Some of the games rock too.

Re:Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[amiga3D]

I love my tablet but it doesn't replace my computer, it augments it.

Re:Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[Type44Q]

Ballmer's an idiot!

*dons tinfoil hat* It'd be great for the future of Linux (and possibly even the future of the human race) in things are as simple as they appear to be on the surface. My concern is that this business of Microsoft - and, to a lesser degree, Intel - seeming to shoot themselves in the foot with this nonsense is that it runs a lot deeper and has a lot more to do with making inroads against general-purpose computing than most of us suspect.

Re:Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[fast turtle]

Blanket Fail statememt. I have a desktop but am looking at getting a tablet to replace a notebook due to changes in usage. Simply put, I'm spending more and more time in god damn waiting rooms w/o tables or desks and the laptop just isn't as useful anymore while a tablet offers enough functionality to be useable while being smaller. In fact, based on the damn changes in usage, I may even be able to use the tablet to replace most of my desktop functionality while converting it to a home server. It's still useful but...

Re:Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[Decker-Mage]

Blanket Fail statememt. I have a desktop but am looking at getting a tablet to replace a notebook due to changes in usage. Simply put, I'm spending more and more time in god damn waiting rooms w/o tables or desks and the laptop just isn't as useful anymore while a tablet offers enough functionality to be useable while being smaller. In fact, based on the damn changes in usage, I may even be able to use the tablet to replace most of my desktop functionality while converting it to a home server. It's still useful but...

That's the direction I'm going here. Seriously overpowered workstation to server with virtual machines (coin-flip which server OS/hyper-visor combo) and my Nexus 7 as my goes-everywhere machine. Now it becomes a question of tapping into all the data-streams coming into this place ;-)

Re:Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[shutdown -p now]

You know what looks even better when it's out?

The Transformer Book. Core i5, 1920x1200, dock with keyboard (with all the same ports), and it runs Windows 8. On x86, so you have the Windows Store for touch apps, and then you have the full-fledged OS that's free to install whatever the hell you want on it.

Oh, and you can kill Secure Boot and dual-boot Linux. Or just replace Windows with Linux if you really want to.

Re:Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[shutdown -p now]

I'm actually surprised that no-one has got a point yet and made an Android convertible device that'd run Android and Linux proper side by side (with chroot etc), out of the box, "it just works" style. All it takes is getting a decent X server implementation for Android, and there's a guy who's already working on it - just hire him and give him money.

What does it give you? Well, the ability to run LibreOffice, for one. And, generally, the secondary UI that's more useful for getting things done in laptop mode.

It's exactly what Win8 offers (especially on x86, where you can run arbitrary apps in desktop mode and not just Office). It's a shame that Linux/Android could do the same exact thing for over a year now (I've had Ubuntu running in chroot on my Transformer since last year), but it was relegated to hacks and never properly supported by any company. Especially given that Asus itself is now releasing Transformer-style Win8 convertibles (Transformer Book, VivoTab etc).

Re:Transformer Infinity looks better and better

[chrismcb]

A tablet is great as a consumer device, horrible as a creator device.

Shut up Notch

[MogNuts]

Shut up Notch. Seriously. Just shut up.

Notch is simply very skilled at being able troll the internet and being an attention whore. You all think he is the fabled developer of Minecraft. No, he's just the world's best indie PR person.

He needs to desperately draw attention to himself via the game press who eats it up to maintain relevant so he can milk more out of the one game he's ever made, if at all (didn't someone else do all the main stuff of the game?).

I just laugh, because remember that tweet he made about not being as open because people will mis-read. So it's ok if it generates more press towards your $30 *indie* game, but not good if it negatively affects your name and brand.

So I re-iterate, just shut up notch.

Re:Shut up Notch

[MogNuts]

Forgot to mention to that it's probably all about greed. I suspect this is really about not wanting to lose a cut of his profits. Remember all those B.S. excuses about not wanting to deliver his game to Steam users? The service which is basically the anti-MS?

Yea. Profit.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

you're a troll telling people to shut up, YOU SHUT UP tumbleweed.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Notch developed most of the game by himself in the beginning. Then when he started hiring people Jeb eventually took over development and Notch doesn't do any code for minecraft anymore. So yes, he did develop the main base game by himself, but anything that's happened in the past year(?) has been all Jeb and the other developers.

Also I'd say it's more the press taking his tweets and blowing them up rather than him being some kind of PR supergod, almost every single one of his tweets ends up on some news site somewhere, even the inane ones. What's he supposed to do about that, stop tweeting altogether?

Not to mention he's just saying what we're all thinking. ;)

Re:Shut up Notch

[ClaraBow]

Regardless of the fact that he may be whoring for attention, he does make a valid point. How are you going to explain to consumers that Windows RT and Windows x86 aren't' the same when they are being marketed under the same brand? It's going to be very confusing.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Notch didn't invent Minecraft -- He stole most of it from Infiniminer. The guy is a grade A asshole.

All those "minecraft clones" are really infiniminer clones, because that's what Minecraft is.

Re:Shut up Notch

[csumpi]

The same way you explain the difference between iOS and OSX.

And, you will have 30 days to return your tablet if you don't like it.

And, if winRT starts selling, there will be a Minecraft port on it within 72 hours (remember it's on every game console, iOS device, which have the same requirements). So the OP is actually making a good point here.

Re:Shut up Notch

[obarthelemy]

steam is far from being the anti MS. they both, like apple, want to lock their users into never really owning content, having to go though them to do anything with what they bought... Apple is wildly successful at it, Steam quite successfful, and MS not yet in the consumer space.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

So yes, he did develop the main base game by himself

INFINIMINER EXISTED
Just thought you should know that... Educate yourself. That's all I have to say to you.

Re:Shut up Notch

[obarthelemy]

you explain to them that RT != x86. It's in the name, so the bran dis not "the same"(sic).

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Why did you feel the need to put *indie*?
You do realise the game is indie, right? Stop being a moron who thinks Indie is a genre.

But yes, I agree with everything else.
The game only became popular because of rumor and speculation. Before that, it was limited to a few no-name people on Youtube, 4chan and a few other small communities.
It was only until Jeb and the others took over that things actually started to get anywhere.
It stagnated like hell before between the periods when it wasn't really known until they came on board. (aka, the "greedy jew" thing that a lot of communities mention when attacking Notch)
There is no doubt the game did lag behind considerably when that moment happened, but a lot of work was getting an actual business up and running as well as hiring people, finding an office, legal, etc.
Was he lazy with Minecraft? Probably for a little bit, but not much since he was giving development over to Jeb. He probably spent a bit of time tidying things up and making sure there wasn't stuff only the Mind Of Notch understood. (like why he was returning 1 for a random function...)

In particular the whole Unlimited Detail hilarity got me. Funny how he never replied again after they uploaded the engine show-off with HardOCP and a couple others. (and had to latch on to Carmacks words by twisting them in to something they weren't)
Ever since he got success he thinks he is some sort of diva of a coder.
But to call him a troll is rather incorrect. He actually does have a product. Most trolls actually don't have anything behind them.

Re:Shut up Notch

[jones_supa]

You could have been just a notch friendlier, you know.

Re:Shut up Notch

[_xeno_]

That and I highly doubt this has anything to do with problems with the Windows 8 platform and much more to do with the fact that Minecraft is written in Java, and therefore would have to be ported to "something else" in order to meet the game store requirements.

Of course, astute Minecraft fans would know that the game already has been ported to "something else" multiple times in order to make the Xbox 360 and iOS releases. So presumably, if Notch didn't want to be an ass, he could just make the Xbox 360 version the "official" version and port that back to Windows and - presto, he'd have a Windows 8 game store capable version, right there.

But that would involve not being a drama whore. And would probably improve the game experience by not requiring his users to install a giant security hole just to play the game.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Purity Of Essence]

Notch has made at least 17 games in addition to Minecraft.

Funny Farm, Luxor, Carnival Shootout, MEG4kMAN, Left 4k Dead, t4kns, Miners4k, Hunters4k, Dungeon4k, Sonic Racer 4k, Dachon4k, l4krits, Blast Passage, Bunny Press, Breaking the Tower, Infinite Mario Bros, Minicraft.

Re:Shut up Notch

[arkhan_jg]

Not to mention that he quite happily did minecraft pocket edition for the ipad, an ARM ecosystem that is just as restrictive as the Microsoft app store on windows RT.

No hypocrisy there, no siree.

Consumers went 'ohhh, walled garden, totally restricted to one vendor, apple decides what apps I'm allowed to install, awesome' and bought the things by the utter truckload.

The most common complaint about android is that Google doesn't exercise ENOUGH control over the OEMs to prevent fragmentation

Is it any surprise that Microsoft went 'seriously? A walled garden where we get to cream a big slice of profit on every bit of software is what customers want? Alrighty then!'

Re:Shut up Notch

[epiphani]

Seriously? He made two comments on twitter, of which he's an active user, and the media picked it up. I don't quite see how that's trolling for attention.

You, on the other hand, seem to be doing quite well at it.

Re:Shut up Notch

[ClaraBow]

iOS and OSX look very different and run on different devices, whereas, Windows RT and Windows x86 look exactly the same and will run on identical hardware. Also, there isn't an OSX tablet to compete with an iOS tablet.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

So if you give a little you have to give up the whole lot no matter how bad it seems to be getting?

Re:Shut up Notch

[rubycodez]

what's your point? no secret that the failed game Infiniminer (discontinued commercially after one month in marketplace) inspired Notch to write MINECRAFT. So Notch made the winning sandbox game, and you bring up a loser. so what?

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. You literally just claimed both that Notch did not create Minecraft, and that Windows RT on ARM will not be locked down to the Microsoft store!

Care to prove either of those claims? Even just a teeny bit?

And whoever modded your lies as insightful should be ashamed.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Insightful? Really? Who exactly is the greedy one here? It seems to me that forcing people to go through the MS Store would be a bit more greedy than a developer wanting to sell his program on his own terms and not have to pay someone else for what exactly? And who cares if it even is the first game he's ever made... it's still a very popular game. I didn't realize one of the requirements for being a relevant game developer is that you have to develop lots of games.

Re:Shut up Notch

[dissy]

Please do not encourage the troll by calling his lies "facts" ;}

He claims Notch did not create Minecraft, yet Notch has live updated Minecraft while coding on it with a crowd of thousands around him at a convention held in his games name...

He continues with a claim that someone else wrote most of the code, when in fact Notch wrote most of the code and only recently handed it off for updates to another person, very very recently.

While technically speaking, lies are indeed facts, at least call it "false facts" as they are supposed to be called :P

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

The code for Minecraft is not based on the code for Infiniminer. They are two different code bases. Notch wrote Minecraft from scratch. He was influenced by ideas from Infinimner and other games. Infiniminer has different gameplay than Minecraft. Minecraft is not an Infinminer clone anymore than Galaga is a Space Invaders clone.

Re:Shut up Notch

[bluescrn]

If you were earning millions and millions, would you want to give 30%+ away to MS or Valve, for very little beyond a billing system and content hosting?

Not really greed, just good business sense, IMHO.

Re:Shut up Notch

[F.Ultra]

So members of the Apple lawyers team has found there way here.

Re:Shut up Notch

[bluescrn]

This.

You can't complain about Apple or MS whilst being a Valve fanboy. Yes, the Steam user experience is great. The developer experience isn't so good (Loads of developers aren't allowed in. Greenlight was a bit of a clusterfuck. And if you get in, it'll cost you a large chunk of your revenue)

I really wish Valve would split up into two companies... the awesome company that makes amazing games, and the evil company that's just about managed to turn the PC into a closed platform when it comes to gaming. But their stroke of genius was keeping the 'awesome' attached to the 'evil', so no gamer could ever really dislike them!

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, the cantankerous bitching old loser who never managed to succeed in anything, including moving out of his mum and dad's basement, and his suck-puppet brigade. Why don't you just shove those accounts up your ass and follow your own advice, you piece of failure?

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Infiniminer is the winer in my book. No amount of money changes the fact that Minecraft is not open source. Infiniminer is. Know why Infiniminer was discontinued? It's sources were leaked and then it was open sourced. Minecraft came to be VERY quickly (merely a few weeks) after infiniminer sources were leaked... Believe what you will, there were open source Java clients for Infiniminer right around the time Minecraft sprang up. Sure the proprietary Minecraft occupies a lot of mindshare comparatively, but I don't give a fuck, I use GNU/Linux not MS/Windows -- Guess which OS I think "wins"?

Re:Shut up Notch

[Lunix Nutcase]

iOS and OSX look very different and run on different devices, whereas, Windows RT and Windows x86 look exactly the same and will run on identical hardware.

Since when is ARM and x86 "identical hardware"? Since, you know, WinRT is only for ARM tablets.

Re:Shut up Notch

[F.Ultra]

Have you actually read what Notch wrote:

Got an email from microsoft, wanting to help "certify" minecraft for win 8. I told them to stop trying to ruin the pc as an open platform.

Re:Shut up Notch

[gallondr00nk]

Not to mention that he quite happily did minecraft pocket edition for the ipad, an ARM ecosystem that is just as restrictive as the Microsoft app store on windows RT.

No hypocrisy there, no siree.

That's because of money. No such thing as hypocrisy as long as money is involved!

Its cheap grandstanding and nothing more. MC will work fine on x86 Win8 without certification, and lets be honest, RT is probably going to bomb badly.

Quite the example of an empty gesture.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool story. Cooler editing.

Re:Shut up Notch

[csumpi]

I've recently upgraded to mountain lion, and was surprised how much OSX is starting to look like iOS. From the launcher, to mouse wheel scroll direction, scrollbars, mail or the fact that by default you are not allowed to install programs that don't come from the app store (I know, you can change much of this, I've spent a day customizing myself).

But all that aside, MS wants Windows on ARM.It's not possible to run executables compiled for x86 or x64 on ARM. So there has to be a separation, with Apple you also have the mac and ios app stores.

WinRT and Win8 will probably satisfy needs of different user groups. But the fact that they look and work the same might be a benefit. And what could have MS done to make a better distinction? Come up with a whole new name? Like Windows 8 vs Doors 8?

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

The summary also incorrectly states that your app has to be Metro in order to be listed in the store. This is just BS and wrong. Now, you have to be Metro in order to be purchased from the store. You can LIST Win32 apps just fine - but you can't sell them directly in the store. You basically get a link from the store back to your own site. But you can still be listed.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

...and if you're Joe Q. Public who doesn't know what that means when they're looking at the price tag at Best Buy?

YOU know, and I know, but there's a good chance that even otherwise well-informed nerds won't know or recall when they're shopping around. It happens.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Minecraft requires Java. So bonus, this silliness keeps Win8 more security ...

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

The XBox version does not support any of the existing mods that people use. It would be a vastly inferior game at that point and everyone would hate Notch for dumping Java.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, astute Minecraft fans would know that the game already has been ported to "something else" multiple times in order to make the Xbox 360 and iOS releases. So presumably, if Notch didn't want to be an ass, he could just make the Xbox 360 version the "official" version and port that back to Windows and - presto, he'd have a Windows 8 game store capable version, right there.

4J Studios developed the Xbox port, not Mojang. I would assume, like for many ports, that 4J Studios retains control over their code they've written. It is even possible that Mojang does not have access to it.

Re:Shut up Notch

[flimflammer]

Infiniminer was never commercial; he just didn't release the source code initially until someone decompiled it and people started forking it. Jesus if you're going to stick your nose into discussions with such a negative attitude, you could at least get your facts straight, least you look like a flippant Minecraft fanboy.

Re:Shut up Notch

[csumpi]

See above: 30 day return policy.

Besides, even WinRT will have a browser, email, and angry birds. That right there satisfies 99% of users (I actually just made that number up, but it's probably pretty accurate).

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Infiniminer was available for $5.99 shortly before the source leak.

But troll all you want.

Re:Shut up Notch

[arth1]

It would be a vastly inferior game at that point and everyone would hate Notch for dumping Java.

No one ever gets hated for dumping Java.

Many of the problems this game has are directly related to java bloat and limitations, something the developer even admits.
If you're a die hard java enthusiast, ask yourself why so few games are written in the language, and especially open world games.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Nemyst]

You do realize the Surface and Surface Pro are rather similar from the outside? Plus, I have to say the name doesn't make me think "those are two entirely different products running on two entirely different platforms" like, say, iPad and MacBook do.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Microlith]

Oh sweet, so yet another game could be ruined by becoming a console to PC port?

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the problems related to Java are due to bad programming and are actually resolved by mods (e.g. Optifine) but could be fixed even better with a rewrite. I'm sorry but you just don't have a clue.

Re:Shut up Notch

[romiz]

Valve does not prevent a developer from distributing games through any other mean, and there is no lack of concurrence in the Digital Game Delivery market. Self-publication is very cheap, and platforms like Steam are intended for developers that are ready to invest money to respect Valve's conditions, in exchange for an improved revenue through a better exposition to gamers that are used to buy their games.

This is quite different from the current Microsoft and Apple tactics of using their power as an OS provider to extract a "gatekeeper tax" on all programs sold for their platform.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Go see a shrink, ASAP. Please.

Re:Shut up Notch

[tepples]

Two questions for you:

First, what did Infiniminer clone? As far as I can tell, it's a 3D version of Motherload, and Motherload is heavily inspired by Boulder Dash.

Second, should Linus Torvalds and the Free Software Foundation be looked down on for cloning UNIX?

Re:Shut up Notch

[Zimluura]

Infiniminer?? You haven't heard of Dwarf Fortress??

Re:Shut up Notch

[Guru80]

So what's the point you are trying to make? He has never hid the inspiration behind the game. I don't play minecraft much anymore but my kids do. I was around back when there were a thousand sales, not millions. He was the sole developer behind the game "Minecraft" for a long time and talked openly about where he got his ideas from. We all know Infiniminer existed. Even if you don't know what it is, if you followed the Minecraft development you would have heard about it from Notch and various others many times. Your point, if you are trying to make one, is puzzling.

Re:Shut up Notch

[toriver]

current ... all programs

Why do you lie? Neither Apple nor Microsoft do this if we are talking the Windows and OS X side. Gatekeeper is an option on OS X Mountain Lion, and does not exist on Windows, where any app stores are optional.

Re:Shut up Notch

[toriver]

If someone else than the original author decompiles a commercial program and release the source, then it is not open source, it is a copyright violation. Forcing open other people's software for some religious RMS-worshipping reason is fanaticism.

Re:Shut up Notch

[jeremyp]

by default you are not allowed to install programs that don't come from the app store

This is completely false.

By default, programs that are downloaded from the Internet that haven't been signed won't run unless you right click the icon and override the protection.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

Steam does so much more than host content and provide a billing system. If that's all you think it's doing then you're clearly ignorant.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

If you increase your distribution 10 fold, 30% is easy money.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Guy Harris]

by default you are not allowed to install programs that don't come from the app store

This is completely false.

By default, programs that are downloaded from the Internet that haven't been signed won't run unless you right click the icon and override the protection.

...and if they have been signed by an identified developer, you don't even have to do that, you can just run them (or, if they have an installer package, start the installer with the package).

(And you can download them with something that doesn't set the quarantine extended attribute, or build them yourself if you have source, and run them just fine, but that's a bit more geeky.)

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

And amazing profits during summer and winter sales.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Anonymous Coward]

And what have you done lately, MogNuts?

Re:Shut up Notch

[csumpi]

You of course read the whole sentence, and got to the part where I said you can change this behavior, right?

Re:Shut up Notch

[Volguus Zildrohar]

Did you read your post, where you claimed you couldn't run anything that didn't come from the app store? Just in case you forgot:

by default you are not allowed to install programs that don't come from the app store

You don't need to change any behaviour to run/install signed apps that DON'T come from the app store. If you download something from the app store, it is signed. The reverse is not necessarily true. This is what the previous poster was trying to point out.

Re:Shut up Notch

[rubycodez]

it was commercial, but Zachtronics dumped it one month after release, so short you missed it

Re:Shut up Notch

[rubycodez]

, Infiniminer was written in C# .NET, for NOT running on open source OS

Re:Shut up Notch

[csumpi]

I said install. I didn't say run. I said you can change it. Read it.

Re:Shut up Notch

[backwardsposter]

Actually, from steam you also get marketing. And it's only 30% of what you sell on there, not all venues, so it opens up a new market to you I'd say that's worth it. I'm willing to bet there are companies out there spending at least 30% on marketing. And it's pretty great marketing if that's your target audience. Just saying, I wouldn't count that as "little value beyond a billing system and content hosting".

On Steam you'd know if there were a Sequel or DLC coming out for a game that popular. And it's not 30% of all their sales, just sales made on steam, which still gets the word out to your buddies that may not have used steam to buy the game in the first place.

Re:Shut up Notch

[Volguus Zildrohar]

I also said install. I read what you said. You're wrong (or lying, though I don't see what you'd have to gain by it).

Re:Shut up Notch

[csumpi]

"""Did you read your post, where you claimed you couldn't run anything that didn't come from the app store?"""

But you are somewhat right, as I didn't say you can install programs that are signed with an apple certificate.

So my complete statement should've been that you cannot install any program that's not downloaded from the app store or not signed by an apple certificate unless you change the security settings.

But apple is counting on most users not being able to figure that out, so they just go and buy from the app store, so they profit 30%. And they are probably right, as I had to help a mac user today who deleted her iphoto, couldn't reinstall it, nor did she know that you can right click (secondary click) on a macbook pro. You think she could've figured out how to change the security settings?

One way or another, what apple is doing is plain evil and they are chipping away at users' freedom in order to make more $$$.

Re:Shut up Notch

[romiz]

Why do YOU lie ? On iOS, Apple is already the gatekeeper and you can't avoid it.

And from their current moves, it clearly looks like both Apple and Microsoft would do it on their desktop environments if they could get away with it. They cannot right now, and the warnings from Notch, Gabe Newell, etc. are clearly there to raise awareness on this issue, and try to foil the OS makers' strategy.

certification = protection racket

[Anonymous Coward]

nice software you have, shame if something was to happen to it (like scary warning dialogs)

how anti-trust regulators are not all over this is a mystery

Re:certification = protection racket

[DoofusOfDeath]

IANAL, but I think antitrust requires that you both (a) have a monopoly, and (b) use tying to extend your monopoly into new areas.

My guess is that because MS doesn't have a monopoly on the tablet market in general, extending their control over the OS into control over app distribution, on their platform only, isn't antitrust.

Re:certification = protection racket

[Anonymous Coward]

How the fuck does shit like this get modded up? I guess you put "anti-trust" in a post about MS on Slashdot and it's an auto up mod? Huh?

The anti-trust regulators aren't going to force MS to do something to run a poorly written indie game. That's why they're not all over this. Get your head out of your ass.

Re:certification = protection racket

[Nerdfest]

Microsoft are locking anything under their 'Metro' interface to their software store for *all* platforms, as I understand it. It is absolutely abusing their monopoly. Apple has made it acceptable enough that it won't be questioned for a while.

Re:certification = protection racket

[ColdWetDog]

Perhaps the reason that anti trust lawyers aren't beating up Microsoft this time is because this isn't a violation of the Sherman Act.

Maybe they know more than you do.

Re:certification = protection racket

[spire3661]

Clearly you dont understand what a monopoly is. Apple holds NO MONOPOLIES AT ALL, full stop. Believe me, if Apple had a monopoly, I would be the first one pointing it out. Microsoft was the last true monopoly we will see in tech for a looooong time. It would be impossible for Apple to achieve the market-share MS once had. There are just too many viable competitors now.

Re:certification = protection racket

[Nerdfest]

I'm saying that Apple has made lock-in palatable ... nothing about them having a monopoly.

Re:certification = protection racket

[sjames]

Or perhaps after the last time where they painstakingly proved beyond reasonable doubt that MS was guilty and it all went away after a round of golf with Bush, they just aren't than anxious to waste their time on a lost cause.

Re:certification = protection racket

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple holds a monopoly on devices that work with the 30 pin Apple connector (or the new 9 pin Lightning connector). Given that most clock radios, personal speaker systems, car audio systems all support the 30 pin Apple connector (and will support the 9 pin connector eventually), this imposes a HUGE burden on anybody attempting to enter the portable music player business - they simply can't make devices which plug into the existing infrastructure.

Re:certification = protection racket

[toriver]

Sorry, but Nintendo, Sony, SEGA, Atari* etc. made lock-in devices called "games consoles" years and years before Apple did.

*) Well, the 2600 was a far simpler device so it was easier to make "unofficial" games for it, like the ex-Atari employees in Activision did.

How is this different than any other tablet?

[gravyface]

Apple has a walled garden. That's it. Android does too. Microsoft has a walled garden, but if you have an x86 tablet, you can plant petunias and begonias if you want in there. That seems like an improvement to me. And it's likely a technical reason too: all those Windows-native calls/hooks that your typical Windows-compatible applications require likely do not exist on the ARM version of Windows 8 (I'm not a Windows programmer/guru, so I'm speculating here, but seems likely no?).

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Wattos]

Please explain how Android has a walled garden? Last time I checked I can install applications without using google play/market

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[LordLucless]

Apple has a walled garden.

Yes.

Android does too.

No

Microsoft has a walled garden, but if you have an x86 tablet, you can plant petunias and begonias

WTF?

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[gravyface]

Slashdot needs an edit feature. You're right. My bad. Had a different train of thought originally.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually a lot of them do exist, you're just not allowed to use them. They ported the Windows Desktop over because Office still needs it.

Everybody else has to abide by the Metro only restriction, but Microsoft is special.

Really though, Notch isn't alone on this. Nobody will be making anything resembling serious games for the ARM version.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[obarthelemy]

If you keep the little box "install from other sources" unchecked, then Android has a walled garden. You get the choice of a walled garden or not, which is fine, most people shouldn't be allowed to DL random stuff. Too bad the walls are not that good, BTW ^^

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Anonymous Coward]

hey, last time i checked you can "sideload" in win8

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"Apple has a walled garden.

Apple and Microsoft are not in competition, since Microsoft doesn't make computers. That being said, people bought the land knowing there was a wall around the garden, and in many cases because it has a wall around it. They trust the realtor.

"Android does too."

No, it doesn't. It has a gate with an option to keep the gate locked, or to open it.

Microsoft has a walled garden

What computer does Microsoft make, again? Why do they get to lock my hardware down, when they don't even make the hardware I bought? Also, nobody in their right mind trusts Microsoft. Furthermore, they are doing classic bait and switch. The ignorant user gets a new PC and likes Windows 8 (again, they are ignorant) so he shells out money for a tablet that M$ doesn't make and expects a similar experience. Ah ... ignorant user ... thanks for the cash, but you've been screwed again.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Blymie]

OK, that's it.

If you people want to win the PR war, stop using the enemy's PR terms!

It isn't a walled garden. NO WAY.

That implies something wonderful and pleasant and beautiful and...

Walled garden? Nope, it is a JAIL. Designed so you CAN NOT escape, and your free will is negated.

Stop using their PR terms!

(note: Wattos.. you just happened to be the dude I replied to. Nothing personal, everyone seems to be using the enemy's PR terms)

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[blind biker]

Apple has a walled garden. That's it. Android does too.

Yeah, except for the little detail that Android doesn't.

Feel free to spout more lies.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[interval1066]

You get the choice of a walled garden or not...

Walled Garden... heh heh heh. Giving Fido the man-slaughtering hell hound the abilty to doff his collar doesn't mean he's safely secured up either. A walled garden is not an "opt-in" feature. Install from other sources is just that, freedom.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please explain how Windows 8 is a walled garden?

Last time I checked I can install desktop apps without going through Windows Store just like I always could with Windows 7, Vista, XP, 2000, NT 4...

You might have a point for Windows RT, but if Clover Trail delivers then who's going to use Windows 8 on ARM anyway?

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[mpe]

Please explain how Android has a walled garden? Last time I checked I can install applications without using google play/market.

IIRC you can even divorce an Android device entirely from Google (something which can be especially desirable in the "Enterprise" market) far more easily than you can divorce an iOS device from Apple.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're talking about "sideloading" Metro apps, you can only do that in the Enterprise version.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[jd2112]

Android has a walled garden but unlike Apple's there is a door labeled "Allow installation of non-market applications".

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Anonymous Coward]

What computer does Microsoft make, again?

http://www.microsoft.com/surface

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Android has not walled garden. It has a fencened in one you can feel free to step out of at any point.
Just because those calls do not exist on windows ARM does not mean they cannot allow sideloading of applicatons the same way android does.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Zero__Kelvin]

Phew. For a minute there I thought I wrote what imaginary overpriced tablet that nobody is going to buy will they possibly someday make, but I just went back and checked to be sure, and sure enough, that's not what I asked.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[tgkokk]

hey, last time i checked you can "sideload" in win8

Last time I checked, you could do it only in Enterprise.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Blimey! Never thought of that!

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't recognize the logical form? It's called "modus non-sequitor." It is a rule of inference where you have a conjunction of a true statement and a false statement, and you are allowed to infer an unrelated irrelevant fact.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[toriver]

Apple PR used the term walled garden? When?

It's more like going to a mall compared to braving the dark streets of the downtown shops.

Not sure what "freedoms" Android users crave that aren't satisfied by the selection in the Apple app store. You cannot run any more on a device that has been written for it, and iOS has the most developers.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[shutdown -p now]

You can do it (in a different way) in any version, but there are hoops to jump through.

Re:How is this different than any other tablet?

[Anonymous Coward]

What computer does Microsoft make, again?

The surface. The slate too, right? I forget if that ever got to fruition.

At the end of the day...

[gravyface]

Microsoft Windows native/legacy applications -- a massive massive software ecosystem unparalleled by any other OS/platform (besides the Web perhaps?) -- is the reason why they can never turn their backs on it. Its the key to their power, but with power comes a great responsibilit^H^H^H burden.

They will try, but at the end of the day, the Microsoft walled garden will always have the gate left open.

WinRT is dead in the water

[KiloByte]

I'd say Microsoft shot itself in the foot here, not by enacting the walled garden (which is bad), but by not releasing a compat layer to run WinRT executables on earlier versions of i386/amd64 Windows.

No one is really going to port stuff just for porting sake, and the API is quite different, with no obvious upsides. As for users, there are three groups:
* Windows Phone 8: laughed at, and without software it's a chicken-and-egg problem
* Windows 8 for business: no sane business is going to migrate for 5 or so years
* Windows 8 for home users: they don't upgrade for the (non-existing) coolness factor but by getting Windows with replacement hardware

Thus, the only real way to get actual users for WinRT software in the short term would be making it possible to run it on Windows 7 (and if they really cared, even XP). With no users, there will be no serious developers.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[obarthelemy]

"the API is quite different, with no obvious upsides". Or not:

obvious upsides to dropping some backward compatibility:
- less OS bloat
- faster OS
- more battery life
- fewer security holes
- no significant loss of features aside from backward compatibility itself

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[KiloByte]

I mean upsides for the developer. A less bloated OS is easier to maintain and might be milder on the battery, but doesn't make writing software for it any easier.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Anonymous Coward]

And WHY in the name of $ANYTHING would anyone chose by their own will to use a version of Windows that doesn't look like, act like or, above all, does not run the same applications as the old versions?

Why would anyone throw themselves into the arms of a company with multiple convictions for market abuse when there's neither the need nor any benefits in doing it? BTW, no, "Microsoft" being printed on the packaging doesn't count as any of that.

The preposition is ridiculous. None of the items you listed are unobtainable with any other of the alternatives in the market, nor are they even proven to exist even in Windows RT in the first place...

The only thing Microsoft has going for it is inertia, and they know it. WinRT is a sideshow, an attempt at looking like they're doing "something", but reality it's just a hobbled half-measure. It'll never account for anything.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[bertok]

no significant loss of features aside from backward compatibility itself

That's a common misconception perpetuated by clever marketing, but it's flat out wrong.

Metro/WinRT is not Win32 modernized, instead it is Silverlight 6 Tablet Edition.

It's severely sandboxed, even more in some ways than Silverlight 5 was, which means that really important things that a lot of common applications require just Don't Work At All, and can't be made to work unless Microsoft relents and releases Windows 9 with a newer, more permissive API.

To give you an idea of just how restricted Metro/WinRT apps are, they're prevented from communicating with Desktop apps and traditional local services. That means that there's no shared memory, no named pipes, no Windows event passing, not even "localhost" sockets! Really major things can't be done, like runtime code generation (JIT), which directly impacts applications like Firefox and Chrome. Statically compiling Java code may work for some apps, but not if dynamic class loading is required.

Put yourself in the shoes of an Enterprise developer: Message Queues? Missing. LDAP? Nope. Background services? Blocked. Oracle client? Hah! Local database? Can't connect. Group Policy? Unavailable. PowerShell Integration? Desktop only.

Try this from a games developer's perspective: OpenCL? No JIT. PhysX? Can't talk to the driver. OpenGL? Over Ballmer's dead body.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[tepples]

Try this from a games developer's perspective: OpenCL? No JIT. PhysX? Can't talk to the driver. OpenGL? Over Ballmer's dead body.

But how is the situation on Windows RT devices worse than that on the Xbox 360?

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Anonymous Coward]

So it would be alright in your book, if developing for the world's largest personal computing ecosystem eventually became as restricted as on a gaming console? I'm told OpenGL has a ton of long-standing problems, but apparently, devs still enjoy being flexible in their choice of platfom.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean upsides for the developer. A less bloated OS is easier to maintain and might be milder on the battery, but doesn't make writing software for it any easier.

It is interesting, but for quite a while one of the most common criticism of Microsoft and Windows here on Slashdot was that they didn't do something like this. That Windows was too much burdened with backwards compatibility. That they should make bolder move in cutting old cruft and designing a new modern OS. When they do, people want the old cruft back.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Lennie]

Not only the enterprice developer, but also the sysadmins. The advantage of WinRT could have been intergration with Windows Domain/AD for administration, but they choose to make WinRT not useful for the enterprise. So if you want a Windows tablet for the enterprise, Windows 8 x86 it is.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Anonymous Coward]

Try this from a games developer's perspective: OpenCL? No JIT. PhysX? Can't talk to the driver. OpenGL? Over Ballmer's dead body.

But how is the situation on Windows RT devices worse than that on the Xbox 360?

Xbox 360 developers have direct access to hardware. How is what you're asking even a question?

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[obarthelemy]

thanks, I wasn't aware of all that.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Anonymous Coward]

My favorite restriction is one of the entries from this chart:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464945.aspx

Under "multimon" for multiple monitors, their "alternative" for Metro apps: single monitor.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: I am ex-Microsoft.

- less OS bloat

Guess what? The work they did for this happened in Windows 7. The ARM builds are now taking advantage of this work. They could have very well easily exposed it to the public in a way that the old-style apps could have opted in and taken advantage too, while still having access to a majority of the useful APIs in Windows. They did not go that route mostly because they are dumb, and secondarily because they do not trust developers.

- faster OS

A lot of the work to speed up Windows 8's boot times and memory footprint happened entirely independently of WinRT. The fact that the x86/amd64 versions also run faster with a full desktop environment shows this.

- more battery life

People confuse this one a lot. What some of Sinofsky's stooges (as well as Apple stooges) will tell you is that programs are "always running" under the old model. Actually, they're only on the CPU if they've got a thread that isn't blocked on some kernel event. A well-behaved application will not wake up if there isn't work to do. The focus should be on getting devs to do the polite thing, not punishing everyone because a few people don't know this.

- fewer security holes

Oh yeah, I'm sure there aren't privilege escalation bugs in WinRT...

- no significant loss of features aside from backward compatibility itself

I like how this is "no significant loss, except this big huge thing which everybody expects to work".

Not to mention the problems which aren't compatibility. If you happen to want to do something the morons coming up with this crap haven't envisioned and already done for you, tough shit. You're at the mercy of some not very smart people (yes, I know some of them personally, they are generally dumb as bricks) who decide what makes a good API set.

It took decades to get Windows development where it is today. These guys think they can replace it in a 3 year development cycle, when it's clear that the decision-makers lack a real appreciation of what makes a successful development platform. Good luck with that.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Decker-Mage]

Which is why I reserve judgement. Until some of us, no longer under NDA, get our (sweaty) paws on one and see what the performance is like on comparable apps, who knows? If it is nicer to develop for, without all the prior API bloat, it might actually be a pleasure to write for it.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[shutdown -p now]

With respect to battery life, a lot of the work really necessitates a completely different API model. In particular, you have to be able to completely suspend apps, such that they save their state to persistent medium, and then resume them from the same point completely transparently to the end user. This sort of thing is very hard to shoehorn on the established Win32 app model, but you need it to enable deep sleep. Look and iOS and Android, which require similar things from apps already.

Also - and not directly related to battery life - there is the issue of UI performance. Or rather "smoothiness", i.e. the lack of stutter and lag. Win8 APIs try to combat that by being inherently asynchronous - you have to do stuff by firing off tasks and registering callbacks, which means that you don't get to block the UI thread by doing something silly like a blocking read on it.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Anonymous Coward]

Woosh.

You are either really dumb or not thinking hard enough if you think that's hard to "shoehorn" on the established app model. Or you listened to what other people told you when they said it was hard and can't be done. This is very different from it not being possible or elegant.

In fact in the "established Win32 app model" an app spends most of its time blocked in GetMessage, WaitForMultipleObjects etc. and there is not even anything to suspend or resume! If there is an ill-behaved app not being polite that could be a bug on their part, so you can (1) reject that app from the store or (2) lower the process's priority when it's not in the foreground or other tricks with scheduling. But don't punish normal apps doing useful work on the user's behalf just because someone down the hall in building 86 said "it would be bad" to let them get their work done, because, like, Apple totally restricts this too.

Please learn something about how an operating system works under normal conditions. Or even look more into how Android does things, instead of listening to other people when they tell you, then citing that third-hand "knowledge". Lazy thinkers like you are the reason WinRT sucks.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[shutdown -p now]

In fact in the "established Win32 app model" an app spends most of its time blocked in GetMessage, WaitForMultipleObjects etc. and there is not even anything to suspend or resume!

Sure, it's being blocked - on its main thread. But even if there are no other threads running (and what if there are?), it still has its global state. How are you going to save and later restore it if you need to unload it, or just going to deep sleep? Don't forget to account for things like open files on external devices, network sockets etc - it's not as easy as taking a heap dump and then restoring that in-place.

I do know enough about Android app development to know that its model is much similar to what WinRT does, from developer's point of view, than it is to Win32. I also know that there's no mobile device on the market today that lets apps do what Win32 does, and the battery life for which doesn't suck. That tells me something.

Anyway, it's a silly point to be picking on. The problem with WinRT is not that it breaks existing things. Win32 is a three-decades old mess that sucks hard no matter how you look at it, and virtually anything is better than that - and I don't see any problem with the new model requiring apps to be cooperative to make it easier for the OS to juggle threads to conserve battery or whatever. It's not much to ask, and it's not hard to implement.

Nah, it's the various sandboxing restrictions that you've mentioned - the ban on VirtualProtect and other means of runtime codegen, IPC restrictions, CPU and memory quotas etc - which are far more annoying, because they actually preclude one from writing some useful categories of apps, even from scratch. I've looked at writing an IRC client, and there are so many limitations on what an app can do with a socket it's not even funny, especially if you want to keep the connection alive in background... you'd have to write a three-page readme explaining to the user what exactly he needs to do (pin to lockscreen etc) to make it all work.

I'm also annoyed that the framework itself is dumbed down. After WPF and its flexibility (multibindings, custom markup extensions) etc, Silverlight was already meh, and now we get something that's even more basic than that. Well, at least it still has clean model/view separation...

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, it's being blocked - on its main thread. But even if there are no other threads running (and what if there are?)

I think you missed my point here. My answer is to let them run. If the developer has done their job they will block if they don't have work to do. If they have work to do you should trust that it's on the behalf of the user. If these conditions are not met and it's still burning CPU, maybe you shouldn't accept the app.

How are you going to save and later restore it if you need to unload it

Why unload it? Or, how about a radical idea, if you need RAM you should start evicting inactive pages, if only there were some kind of algorithms and hardware mechanisms to detect that, with some kind of decades-long track record...

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[shutdown -p now]

I think you missed my point here. My answer is to let them run. If the developer has done their job they will block if they don't have work to do. If they have work to do you should trust that it's on the behalf of the user. If these conditions are not met and it's still burning CPU, maybe you shouldn't accept the app.

You know it doesn't really work that day. You're essentially asking the app developers to do a good job. For an example of how well that works, see DPI-awareness in Vista/7. They've changed it to require the app to explicitly say that it's going to behave, and then assuming that it'll do so once it makes the claim. It took, what, less than a year for first apps to appear that dutifully reported that they're nice guys, and then proceeded to fuck it all up?

This works fine for the existing model in a sense that it's user's responsibility to police his apps, and if he's running something that doesn't seem to play well, it's because he wants it that way. It works fine for you and me, but not the type of people who are all crazy about "there's an app for that" on their iPad. They want a sanitized environment to play in.

And it's not the kind of thing that you can premoderate on. If your APIs allow that kind of thing, you have to assume that any app is capable of doing it in some conditions - you would effectively have to do a complete test matrix for it to ensure that it never happens. Needless to say this isn't feasible for the kind of review process that an app store requires - heck, even with the current, mostly automated arrangement, they still manage to spend up to a week on every review cycle, if you read people's complaints on MSDN forums.

The right way to do this, IMO, is the way it's done on Android. Design your API in such a way that it allows various "unsafe" or potentially undesired stuff, but only with a clear indication to the user. For example, any Android app that wants to be running in background all the time can do so, but it has to put up a notification. So the user always see what apps, exactly, are doing something behind his back, and can avoid them if desired.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I don't know, if the approach is so bad how come my WM6 device got better battery life than WP7? I did run lots of third-party code on that old thing, where were all those undisciplined app developers to screw it up?

I think first of all Apple had some really bad ideas in this area. But Apple succeeded wildly based on some of their other, better ideas, and now Microsoft in freakout mode takes a sort of cargo-cult approach, I'm talking knee-jerk copying of Apple, taking many of the wrong lessons along the way with the good ones and mis-attributing that success. WM6 didn't suck because of its multitasking, it sucked because of that flat Win3.1-ish UI. Now they've replaced the old flat white rectangles with flat black and bright-colored rectangles, made the whole thing more animated and touch-friendly, but they're also betting the company on some of the worst ideas from Apple.

I also strongly dislike this mistrust of people, usually from Microsoft it comes as undertones but you're starting to say it pretty openly. The new Microsoft thinks it knows better than everybody. It's also losing. Because you can't ship this "dumbed-down" stuff you're talking about. Turns out app developers need a real framework to do anything useful. This is why WP7 has no decent apps and it's why WinRT will lack them as well.

All of this was not the Microsoft I joined, I'll mention. That's why I left.

Re:WinRT is dead in the water

[shutdown -p now]

WP7 doesn't have any decent apps partly because its API is too limited (I mean, it doesn't have any provision for running in background unsuspended at all). And also - and perhaps more so - because it's managed only. C# or VB is all that you get, which means zero portability for iOS or Android. Which is not excusable for a runner-up platform.

Now, personally I would certainly prefer something more like WM6 (which today pretty much is Android) over something like WP7 - or, for that matter, WP8 or WinRT. But I understand that my needs are not the same as those of a typical user, and I've seen plenty Android apps that will crap all over your phone - and I'm not at all sure that I can teach my mom to avoid them (God knows it took some time before she grokked that when you get a message popup online telling you to send an SMS, you don't do what it says). So for her, I want a real walled garden, Apple-style.

Ideally, it would be one with a carefully concealed escape hatch for the likes of me. Which WinRT doesn't offer, and I find it unfortunate. On the other hand, with x86 devices, we are not going to be stuck with WinRT, and Intel did a good job there matching ARM on battery life, size and weight, so personally I'm just going to stick to Win8 on Clover Field.

Nice troll.

[Anonymous Coward]

OH MS IS SOOO EVVVIL. Give it a rest. Seriously.

Apple mobile devices need special attention to give the elite users the ability to do what they want with it.
Android devices need special attention to give elite users the ability to do what they want with it.

MS is going the route of "If you're the type of person that shouldn't run with scissors then buy our locked down tablet" then great. I'm sure the ARM device will be shattered or whatever the people that create the exploit call it just like the others.

MS is just trying to be Apple.

Why is there an official Minecraft for iOS?

[Richard_at_work]

If he isn't just trolling about Windows, and instead does want to make a point about the "value of being able to install your own software", why is there an official Minecraft client for iOS?

Did he suddenly grow a pair because it's Microsoft?

Or is he just more likely to take a stand using a platform which isn't likely to lose him any money if he stays away from it because of his views?

I'm going to go with the last one...

Re:Why is there an official Minecraft for iOS?

[_xeno_]

If he isn't just trolling about Windows, and instead does want to make a point about the "value of being able to install your own software", why is there an official Minecraft client for iOS?

Hell, there's also a version for Xbox 360.

Clearly, Notch has no problems releasing Minecraft on a Microsoft platform that restricts your ability to freely release software.

Re:Why is there an official Minecraft for iOS?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about picking your battles. There's no way he'd contribute anything towards making Android or iOS more open, so why not make a (very small, comparatively) contribution towards trying to hurt Microsoft for their decision to follow suit -- while they still don't have as hug an amount vested in the idea as Google/Apple-- and hopefully convince them to let people own their tablets (better for everyone in the long run, esp. in the best case scenario where Microsoft do wind up opening up _and_ sell more as a result).

Re:Why is there an official Minecraft for iOS?

[SilenceBE]

The only way to distribute Metro apps (x86 or ARM) is via the Windows store. "Side loading" (with is just a funky name for installing Metro apps outside the windows store) is only available for Windows enterprise and server editions. See http://richfrombechtle.wordpress.com/tag/windows-8-sideloading/ or google for "sideloading windows 8"

I don't know you guys that are talking about tablets got the memo that Windows 8 also (unfortunately) runs on the desktop.

This is a path that goes a lot further then Apple as I'm still able to install software freely on my Apple desktop. With Windows also, but not the new Metro apps they are trying to push or I should run the enterprise version.

Re:Why is there an official Minecraft for iOS?

[robmv]

Both iOS and XBox are locked down from their inception. Notch is "boycotting" Windows 8 certification (Metro apps or whatever is called now and store") because it wasn't a locked down platform and is becoming one, don't know but Windows probably is his main platform and he don't want it to become like iOS

Re:Why is there an official Minecraft for iOS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would anyone run Metro apps on a desktop?
Are you one of those people who run Android on a desktop?

Re:Why is there an official Minecraft for iOS?

[am 2k]

That's a very picky philosophy. That's like boycotting Wallmart for their work ethics, but only on Tuesdays.

Re:Why is there an official Minecraft for iOS?

[shutdown -p now]

"Side loading" (with is just a funky name for installing Metro apps outside the windows store) is only available for Windows enterprise and server editions.

For future reference, there are ways around it.

Re:Why is there an official Minecraft for iOS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, why not take a stand when it costs you almost nothing to do so? If more people did that, the world would be a better place.

Re:Why is there an official Minecraft for iOS?

[krenaud]

You can freely install desktop apps in Windows 8 just as you can install desktop apps on OSX. If you want new features such as Metro or iCloud-support then you must enter the walled garden which includes application sandboxing limiting what the applications can do.

Indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

Forgot to mention to that it's probably all about greed.

That is a given. It's always about "greed"; whether it's for money, recognition, and anytime you "want". Everyone is greedy somehow. Even Buddhist monks who give up everything because they are greedy for enlightenment or Christian monks who are greedy for Jesus.

Anyway, whenever one uses "it's about greed", they sound like an eight year old on a playground.

Unheard of

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine if Apple only allows you to install software from their store on the iPad !

Re:Unheard of

[toriver]

Your sarcasm would be appropriate if, at some point in time, Apple allowed you to install software from any source on the iPad. As Microsoft does with the current Windows.

The guy is a rock star now !

[obarthelemy]

And like all rock stars, it's "issue of the day" bandwagon for him. Where was he when MCraft got certified for Apple's AppStore ?

Patent Infringement

[amiga3D]

Hey, I thought Apple held the patent on locking users into an app store? They should sue MicroSoft for patent infringement.

Probably not (XNA vs RT)

[Anonymous Coward]

Most devs use XNA for xbox development, but XNA is not supported on the RT variant. Now you know.

Well, there you go.

[Type44Q]

The bifurcated permission structure is the problem, and it makes WinRT tablets categorically impossible to recommend for anyone who values the ability to install whatever software they please."

Hence the reason for the very existence of this smoldering pile of dung known as an "operating system." Active-denial system would be more like it...

jealous?

[rubycodez]

Jealous of success? Notch did originally write Minecraft, yes it was inspired by at least two other similar games that didn't take off commercially. Notch's company Mojang pulls in $80M USD a year in revenue. Of course he's good at development, marketing, selling, PR.

Minecraft is executed by Java's JVM

[Anonymous Coward]

So shouldn't it be the JVM that is certified for the platform? Minecraft doesn't make any platform dependant system calls directly as far as I'm aware. The part that is LWJGL may be an exception, but Mojang didn't write that.

Re:Minecraft is executed by Java's JVM

[gl4ss]

So shouldn't it be the JVM that is certified for the platform? Minecraft doesn't make any platform dependant system calls directly as far as I'm aware. The part that is LWJGL may be an exception, but Mojang didn't write that.

he's got a version for the xbox360 live service too, I thought about the problem being really that too, but since he has that version he could quite easily have the winRT version up and running(it might not be as good as the x86 tho..).

He's griping about Windows 8

[gravyface]

... and the impending death of Windows/PC as an open, general-computing platform by the hands of Microsoft. He didn't mention tablets once in his tweets.

Re:He's griping about Windows 8

[Nerdfest]

Also, having a carefully curated software does not mean that needs to be your only source of software. Google needs to exercise more control over their store, but not do like Apple, and now Microsoft are doing, and use it as an excuse to lock your users out of their own device. These OS suppliers should enforce whatever rules they want on their own software repositories, be let people choose and install software from wherever they like.

Another open platform will evolve then.

[fireballrus]

Another reason why this is a good news for ReactOS.

Why does Win8 get WinRT's hate?

[poisonborz]

As far as I understand, Win8 has no less freedom for apps/games than Android. You either ship your standalone pack (installer/.apk), or use Market/GPlay (and thereby accept a list of rules). I rarely see articles like this that state that censorship/certification issues are only affecting WinRT (and even in that case, everything is parallel to iOS - so what's new, really?). Aside from phones/tablets, why do developers carve so hard for the built-in AppStore? There is Steam, and possible future solutions, like - who knows - maybe a Cydia-like free store platform for Win8.

Re:Why does Win8 get WinRT's hate?

[blowdart]

Metro apps need to come from a store. Desktop apps do not. Win 8 on x86 has a desktop anyone can use. WinRT does not (it has a desktop, but it's only available to Office). So WinRT is restricted to store delivered applications.

So what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft now have two platforms, i386 that is free to tinker with and ARM that is tightly controlled, just like iOS is. What's the problem? It makes perfect sense given the limitations of mobile hardware when compared to dektop hardware. You can't reasonably expect to run the Symantec Security suite on WinRT, do you? Get used to it or choose i386 and be happy.

Probably some of that

[Sycraft-fu]

It is easy to be a "fighter" where little is on the line. I find it rather unlikely Windows 8 tablets will succeed so there's no harm in him snubbing them. That aside, if they do, he can always just release Minecraft for them. It isn't like MS is going to ban him, they don't give a shit.

I also think it is just generally jumping on the "Hate MS" cause of the day. Hating on MS for the Windows Store is real popular right now with geek types. So he's just jumping on that, probably without doing much research on it.

I do find it funny all the hate on it since it really is no different than many other stores out there. I'd be worried about it (and hating on it) if it were the only way to get programs in Windows 8 but given that they still not only install as normal, but the Windows Store isn't even used for non-metro programs (which would be like every Windows program out there right now) I just don't care. I can't imagine I'll ever buy anything from it, it just won't affect how I do things.

So my guess is it is party greed (as another poster noted Minecraft is on the 360 which is totally locked down too) and partly just joining the hate train.

Re:Probably some of that

[Anonymous Coward]

How is it greed at all?

Do two tweets define a straight line?

[itsdapead]

If he isn't just trolling about Windows, and instead does want to make a point about the "value of being able to install your own software", why is there an official Minecraft client for iOS?

That did occur to me - but bear in mind that TFA consists of two tweets from Notch followed by an awful lot of extrapolation by HotHardware.com. His tweets don't mention ARM at all, just not wanting Microsoft to 'ruin the PC as an open platform'.

I think the problem occures if you see devices like tablets, phones and consoles as 'media consumption' appliances rather than general purpose computers. It's no big deal if they are closed systems (consoles have been that way for years).

The forthcoming ARM-based Windows machines may well be marketed as general purpose laptops and SFF computers.

Re:Do two tweets define a straight line?

[Microlith]

I think the problem occures if you see devices like tablets, phones and consoles as 'media consumption' appliances rather than general purpose computers

That's their point. They have removed the ability for the end user to do as they wish with the intention of turning them into a portal by which you dump your wallet into the greedy hands of the entertainment industries. It's their dream come true: heavy DRM, no uncertified softare, and the users are controlled tightly.

It's no big deal if they are closed systems (consoles have been that way for years).

It is a big deal. These devices are displacing regular, unrestricted computers from homes. Eventually we will start having kids grow up where the only "computer" is a crippled tablet whose primary purpose is extracting money from its owner and passive consumption.

The forthcoming ARM-based Windows machines may well be marketed as general purpose laptops and SFF computers.

Only if you agree to call iOS devices the same, which is ridiculous given the restrictions.

Re:Do two tweets define a straight line?

[itsdapead]

These devices are displacing regular, unrestricted computers from homes. Eventually we will start having kids grow up where the only "computer" is a crippled tablet whose primary purpose is extracting money from its owner and passive consumption.

Hate to burst your bubble, but that's pretty much how the vast majority of people see and use computers today. If you replace your PC with a tablet and are happy, that's a pretty good sign that you didn't really need a PC in the first place. Those of us who actually want 'proper' PCs buy tablets 'as well as' PCs rather than 'instead of'.

Only if you agree to call iOS devices the same, which is ridiculous given the restrictions.

The problem is that MS's best gambit for breaking into the tablet market is to trade on the fact that it has Windows like a 'real PC' and proper versions of MS Office. They've already moved to unify the tablet and desktop UI in Windows 8 to a far greater extent than Apple has done.

Re:Do two tweets define a straight line?

[Microlith]

Hate to burst your bubble, but that's pretty much how the vast majority of people see and use computers today. If you replace your PC with a tablet and are happy, that's a pretty good sign that you didn't really need a PC in the first place. Those of us who actually want 'proper' PCs buy tablets 'as well as' PCs rather than 'instead of'.

Which is why I expect a corresponding plummet in the average computer skills of people from regions dominated by such consumption-geared devices. Nothing quite like having capability withheld from you for the sake of someone's bottom line.

AND?

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time I installed minecraft, I went to minecraft.net and installed it. I'm just going to continue doing so? Where's the news? Some random guy doesn't want to use a new feature, aaaaaand?

The real problem?

[kelemvor4]

The real problem with Windows 8 is that it locks ARM users into a second class experience. If you buy an x86 tablet, you can download programs from SourceForge, GitHub, or any file mirror. If you're an ARM user, you can download programs from the Microsoft store and that's it.

If that's the real problem with windows 8 then it's really not a problem at all, is it? Competing operating systems on mobile (android, ios) are also locked down to a single source out of the box unless you make changes to the OS.

There are a LOT of problems with win8, but this isn't a biggie.

Re:The real problem?

[Microlith]

Competing operating systems on mobile (android, ios) are also locked down to a single source out of the box unless you make changes to the OS.

Given that Android will allow you to do as you wish with a checkbox, then really it is a problem. The other platforms treat you with the same utter hostility that you would some anonymous attacker over the internet.

There are a LOT of problems with win8, but this isn't a biggie.

It is, but people seem happy to dismiss it because Apple somehow makes it OK.

No

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he won't certify it for the metro store, big deal. It's coded in java(horribly), so it'll run just fine on anything that has a JVM, which win 8 does. So just install like normal?

like others....

[SuperDre]

[quote]The bifurcated permission structure is the problem, and it makes WinRT tablets categorically impossible to recommend for anyone who values the ability to install whatever software they please.[/quote] So Apple is allowed to block any manual installation, but MS isn't? Windows 8 = MacOSX, WindowsRT = iOS..

Doesn't mean I agree with being locked down, but I also hate that part of Apple.. Also let's not forget, also on Windows 8 metrostyle applications can only be installed through the windows store..

Slashdot/Notch misunderstanding?

[Anonymous Coward]

So Rafael Rivera made a blog post about this, claiming that Notch might have misunderstood why Microsoft contacted him. According to him all they asked Notch to do was to certify Minecraft so that it could be listed in the Windows Store. Listed, as in only displaying a link to www.minecraft.net. Nothing more, no app hosted by Microsoft or anything. Not converting Minecraft to a "metroapp". Just a link.

I guess we don't know until Notch clears this up, but if it is true then this news article is wrong and most comments are wrong as well.

http://www.withinwindows.com/2012/09/28/notch-doesnt-hate-windows-8-hes-just-confused/

Notch/Slashdot misunderstanding?

[strejf]

So Rafael Rivera made a blog post about this, claiming that Notch might have misunderstood why Microsoft contacted him. According to him all they asked Notch to do was to certify Minecraft so that it could be listed in the Windows 8 Store. Listed as in only displaying a link to www.minecraft.net. Nothing more, no app hosted by Microsoft or anything. Not converting Minecraft to an Metroapp. Just a link. I guess we don't know until Notch clears this up, but if it is true then this news article is wrong and most comments are wrong as well. http://www.withinwindows.com/2012/09/28/notch-doesnt-hate-windows-8-hes-just-confused/

Re:Notch/Slashdot misunderstanding?

[UnknownSoldier]

Please mod parent up.

Link has actual information on specifically why Minecraft currently doesn't pass cert., and what can be done about it.

Re:Notch/Slashdot misunderstanding?

[Anonymous Coward]

From the link:

Details: Minecraft.exe fails this test (with a warning). It isn’t digitally code signed. (Now, there’s no requirement that Mojang AB actually “check” this signature, so modders fear not.)

Yeah, but doesn't Windows check the signatures? I don't know about Windows 8, but I've definitely run into "this isn't digitally signed" warnings on other versions of Windows.

In general though, it looks like this 'certification' boils down to "pay us money, and we advertise you", which is a common business practice, but this one is combined with an implied "...or we'll lock you out of these markets" bit of FUD.

ARM locks ARM users into 2nd rate experience!

[Aphrika]

Seriously, whether the desktop was available or not on Win RT ARM tablets, the experience would always be inferior. Saying that ARM users are getting a second rate experience is stupid. Have them install something that runs badly on their hardware, that's a second rate experience.

What the Metro and MS store is allow developers to write across both architectures with ease. While a Metro app may appear that taxes an ARM tablet, that same app isn't going to break a sweat on a multicore x86 box.

You may as well say iPhone users get a second rate experience because the iPad screen is bigger...

That said though, MS wording as to what Windows 8 certification actually is seems confused. It should really be Certified for Metro, and they should do more to differentiate between cosmetically identical, but technically different products in Windows 8 and Windows RT devices.

Hypocrisy?

[flimflammer]

He doesn't seem to have an issue with the walled garden on iOS but he suddenly takes an intentionally public stand against Windows 8? Is it hitting a bit too close to home this time, Notch?

Notch is always looking to be the center of attention. It works well for him, but through the years I've always thought him to be a bit of a dick, really. I don't hate the man, I just think the way he does things and reacts to things is off.

Ummm, what?

[Sycraft-fu]

Windows 8 runs all x86/x64 apps just fine. No really, I've tested it (I do Windows support at work). Programs I have tried that run fine include, but are not limited to, Firefox, Chrome, Outlook, Sonar, Vegas, HFSS, Matlab, Textpad, Putty, and Visual Studio. To install them I use the tried and true method of "run the installer". Works just like it did in the past.

Yes, the new Metro crap requires the use of the Windows Store, but then the new Metro crap is just that. It is new stuff that until now did not exist. It is the ability to get tablet crap on your desktop, if you really want. It does not stop you from using regular programs.

Really, all the FUD surrounding this is getting silly. People are trying to pretend like Windows 8 doesn't run Windows software as normal. Ya, it does. It also has this stupid tablet shit. Whatever. However getting all up in arms about the tablet stuff being locked to their store is silly unless you are also going to get up on the iOS store.

It's not

[Sycraft-fu]

It is just anti-MS FUD, which is something Slashdot likes a lot.

Windows 8 isn't a great desktop OS because it tries to force a tablet interface on you to replace the start menu (and the UI is ugly compared to 7), but ultimately it doesn't matter. You can replace that if you like (Start8 is my recommendation) and it still runs all Windows x86/x64 software just like past versions of Windows. It just also has the ability to run new Metro aka MS tablet, software which the previous Windows versions didn't. That might be a useful addition except there isn't any at this point and I don't see the market going anywhere.

So it is a stupid feature IMO, but it doesn't screw up your use in any way. Windows works as it always has with standard programs. You can run any code you like, from any source you like, make any changes to the system you like, etc.

Their tablet version, WinRT, will only run Metro programs, in part because the tablets can be ARM and standard Windows code won't run on that. So there, you are locked in same as with iOS, unless you do some kind of jailbreak which I imagine someone will develop if the market gets large enough for anyone to give a shit. However on the desktop, you can run standard Windows software as always.

Re:It's not

[Microlith]

It's "FUD" because people are hurt that Microsoft is getting negative attention over this, and think that Apple somehow gets a pass.

It just also has the ability to run new Metro aka MS tablet, software which the previous Windows versions didn't.

Most importantly, Windows 8 introduces what I'm guessing is version 1.0 of the WinRT API, which is heavily restricted and enforces the walled garden for Microsoft. I'm sure that it will be the only API getting updates in the future and eventually they'll move DirectX into its purview.

You can run any code you like, from any source you like, make any changes to the system you like, etc.

Except for stuff that uses WinRT. You can do what you want with the obsolete Win32 API.

So there, you are locked in same as with iOS

Which makes it all OK!

unless you do some kind of jailbreak which I imagine someone will develop

Ah yes, because Jailbreaking makes such hostile platforms acceptable.

Not gonna bother

[Guru80]

Windows 7 is going to be the new Windows XP, it's gonna be on my systems for years after 8 is released.

Re:Not gonna bother

[Anonymous Coward]

How brave of you! And interesting too.

indie developers are such crybabies

[Anonymous Coward]

I swear to god the only news I hear about these pricks is when they're whining and crying about something. John Carmack or Richard Garriot were never little bitches like today's game developers. Indie devs have such an inflated ego and sense of entitlement if everything doesn't go their way they start crying. Give me a fucking break.

Re:indie developers are such crybabies

[toriver]

Hey, an AC jumped on the train of people who blow shit out of proportion in order to make themselves look better. Shut up and eat your Doritos, zit-face, while you Google for John Carmacks rant about OpenGL versus DirectX.

and microsoft charges for certification

[Dan667]

so win8 certification is also just a money making scheme.

The Windows Store does not have a monopoly

[tepples]

The Windows Store does not have a monopoly on tablets because iPad and Android tablets are not available. The Windows Store does not have a monopoly on desktop because non-Metro apps are available.

Xbox and Xbox 360

[tepples]

Microsoft doesn't make computers

Xbox and Xbox 360 are computers, except explicitly locked down so as not to be general-purpose.

Also, nobody in their right mind trusts Microsoft.

How are Sony and Nintendo more trustable?

Re:Xbox and Xbox 360

[Zero__Kelvin]

Yeah. And my microwave is too. Either that, or your an idiot. I recently told you already to stop stalking me, but I now accept that you aren't actually stalking me, since I went back and discovered that you make idiotic posts to all the people here, but do me a favor and when you see the post is from me, just move along. Thanks.

Re:Xbox and Xbox 360

[tepples]

If the way I phrased it before sounds like the way an idiot would phrase something, then let me try to express it more precisely: The I/O of a game console is far more similar to the I/O of a personal computer than either is to the I/O of a home microwave oven. The general tendency that I've noticed is for lockdown to increase as I/O capability decreases.

Re:Xbox and Xbox 360

[Zero__Kelvin]

Nope. You still sound like an idiot who doesn't know the difference between a personal computer and an embedded systems that can't follow simple directions.

Locked down from inception

[tepples]

Both iOS and XBox are locked down from their inception.

As is Windows RT. Is the main problem with Windows RT the fact that it's called Windows, unlike the Xbox operating system which isn't called Windows XB?

Re:Locked down from inception

[robmv]

and Windows 8 x86 too, you can not install "Metro" applications unless from the "certified" store or custom enterprise signed applications (that only work with your Windows Enterprise license key), so the lock down of Windows x86 has started too

Atari 7800

[tepples]

Hey, I thought Apple held the patent on locking users into an app store?

That patent belonged to Atari (signature verification in the NTSC Atari 7800), and it expired before the iPhone 1 was first sold.

Re:Atari 7800

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, I thought Apple held the patent on locking users into an app store?

That patent belonged to Atari (signature verification in the NTSC Atari 7800), and it expired before the iPhone 1 was first sold.

Ah, but was it signature verification on a mobile device??? No? QUICK, GET THE iLAWYERS ON THE LINE WE'LL TAKE THOSE IDEA-STEALING FUCKERS DOWN!!!

Re:Atari 7800

[tepples]

Ah, but was it signature verification on a mobile device???

Yes. Both BREW and Nintendo DS had it before iOS.

Do these waiting rooms have public Wi-Fi?

[tepples]

I'm spending more and more time in god damn waiting rooms w/o tables or desks

But do these waiting rooms have public Wi-Fi so that you can actually do something on a tablet, or is it locked and the key available to employees only? I have more than enough on my 10" laptop to survive a wait of at least a couple hours with no Internet.

In fact, based on the damn changes in usage, I may even be able to use the tablet to replace most of my desktop functionality while converting it to a home server.

So would you get onto the home server whenever you need to do a lot of typing or play games in genres not suited for touch input?

Re:Do these waiting rooms have public Wi-Fi?

[spire3661]

Fuck you and your assertion that a tablet REQUIRES network to be useful. Also, do you not know that quite a few tablets support KB and mouse? You are the kind of idiot that sees you cant play Halo 4 on PS3 and says consoles are junk. Even your sig is useless and outdated.

Re:Do these waiting rooms have public Wi-Fi?

[tepples]

Fuck you and your assertion that a tablet REQUIRES network to be useful.

There are several things that Apple won't let users do on an iPad and Microsoft won't let users do on a Windows RT tablet except through SSH, VNC, or other methods of remote connection to a general-purpose computer elsewhere on the internet.

Also, do you not know that quite a few tablets support KB and mouse?

If you know that you're going to be carrying a Bluetooth keyboard and Bluetooth mouse with you, why not carry a 10" laptop instead of a tablet and have those built in?

Why is it called a touch screen if you can't touch type?

Even your sig is useless and outdated.

Could you please explain further?

Re:Do these waiting rooms have public Wi-Fi?

[toriver]

What do you mean "do something"? They have something that is called "local storage" for something called "apps". You can have files on them that the apps read and write. I mean, what were you going to use a laptop for without wi-fi? Plus it's easier to get a tablet with a cellular connection than a laptop (at least built-in).

Re:Do these waiting rooms have public Wi-Fi?

[tepples]

They have something that is called "local storage" for something called "apps".

Provided that you're on an Android tablet or that Apple or Microsoft approves the app. Otherwise, you have to run the app on a remote computer and display it through SSH, VNC, or HTTPS.

I mean, what were you going to use a laptop for without wi-fi?

The same thing I usually do on my bus commute to and from work: read web pages saved with Pocket and write code for hobby projects. The first can be done on any major tablet; the second cannot on an iPad or RT tablet. Yes, I understand that the second is out of the ordinary, so let me give an example of something more common: A lot of people write articles, and it's a lot easier to type large amounts of text on a physical keyboard than on a touch screen. Sure, you could carry a Bluetooth keyboard, but by that point, you might as well carry a 10" laptop.

cellular

How many tablet owners actually 1. pay extra for a tablet supporting cellular and 2. pay per month for a cellular data subscription for the tablet?

Re:Do these waiting rooms have public Wi-Fi?

[Decker-Mage]

But do these waiting rooms have public Wi-Fi so that you can actually do something on a tablet, or is it locked and the key available to employees only? I have more than enough on my 10" laptop to survive a wait of at least a couple hours with no Internet.

You do know that tablets can have 3G (4G)? How about tethering? Even better, in my case since I loathe cellphones, a mobile hot-spot. Just from a security standpoint, I wouldn't use public Wi-Fi anyway, especially if I'm connecting into and operating my network!

So would you get onto the home server whenever you need to do a lot of typing or play games in genres not suited for touch input?

I can't speak for anyone else since cervical bone-spurs are doing a number on my typing, or anything else requiring a lot of motor-control so scratch most non-strategy games right off the bat. For almost everything, I use voice and the Nexus 7 does voice recognition very nicely indeed. Next GUI and yes even on my servers. If a keyboard is required for commands, or my master password, well as I said, typing ain't that good now. A dozen or so weird characters are fine, else use handlers. Frankly, aside from CLI wienies, typing is overrated, especially in the face of handhelds with superior voice-recognition. Do recall that the Unix syntax style was created for TeleTypes, the real deal. As in TTY's! I've used them and I can't see why anyone, save someone who considers cryptic interfaces a "good" thing to keep the unwashed (unanointed) masses away from their altar (OS), would like them. [Aside: The ONLY thing I have good to say about PowerShell is that voice works well there if you keep a finger over the hyphen key.]

I forgot to address your point about keyboards/mice/portability issue, well all told, my 7" tablet, bluetooth keyboard (in the same case), bluetooth mouse, and even bluetooth headset wrap into a small bundle that goes in one cargo pocket, although I usually toss it into my small backpack. I wouldn't want to use anything smaller than 7", but that's due to equally old eyes, and I have no use for 10" here which is pure Goldilock's here.

In the future I can eventually see that we'll go to something like a wrist-bracelet, glasses, headset rig with a roll-out display, all equally comfortable with Swype-type on-screen keyboards, Kinect-style user interaction, voice-recognition, etc. (multi-modal in-depth), as part of a personal network that ties in, and imports our environment, wherever we are and whatever we are doing (and that's context sensitive as well). We are still only in the fourth generation of these devices, at best, or more like second-generation by my count, so change will happen fast. Still, multi-modal, distributed, multi-networked devices seem to be the trend. [Until the Next Big Thing comes along, DNI. Direct-Nueral Interface, probably brought to you by Sony who is doing a lot of work in this area.]

Tablets have the potential to become a disabled (I don't mince words) individuals best friend, especially as Google and Android developers have been approaching things of late. 24/7 access to my medical team, anywhere, the 'net's millions of books, and my own personal (legal) collection of literally (pun intended) thousands more, and all through a device with enough compute power to be voice operated even without a 3G/4G connection. Under $500 even with all the widgets above. Wow! Being bed-ridden was my future before. What's next? [Or as MS used to put it, where do you want to go today?]

I have no idea of how the Microsoft tablet market will turn out and frankly, I don't think anyone really does either. What I do know is the potential is there, despite the crap said in these threads. Talk about FUD! Whatever. We need hands-on by the developer community not blarney. Once the NDA's clear, of course.

DOSBox

[tepples]

It's not possible to run executables compiled for x86 or x64 on ARM.

Impossible? I disagree. DOSBox is ported.

And what could have MS done to make a better distinction? Come up with a whole new name? Like Windows 8 vs Doors 8?

Based on how I understand other comments to this story, a different name is exactly what they want.

Re:DOSBox

[csumpi]

Sure, you can emulate stuff. But what performance will you get? I don't think running dos games compares to for example running photoshop in an emulator.

The name is different. Windows RT vs Windows 8. Just like iOS vs OSX.

Not true

[voss]

You can switch steam to offline mode and play all your offline games without contacting steam ever again if thats how you really want it.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555
"Offline Mode allows you to play games through Steam without reconnecting to the Steam Network every time you wish to play - this is particularly useful if you do not plan on playing over the internet and would prefer not to download new updates for your single-player games."

Re:Not true

[Truekaiser]

Which will work for all about a few weeks to months. Till it bitches at you to reconnect.
For updates of course, not because they may think your pirating stuff. Or at least that's what they state..

Read as "Notch Won't Put Minecraft on Metro Store"

[Dunge]

Minecraft still works great on Win8, as with every other games. The Metro store is a fail but Notch just go over the edge with this.

Multiplayer methods

[tepples]

How can a PC game support multiple players without either A. being turn-based, B. requiring a separate license for each household member like Minecraft does, or C. feeling like "a console to PC port"?

Re:Multiplayer methods

[Microlith]

I'm sorry, what you just wrote makes no sense whatsoever. I don't see how it is at all relevant to the comments preceding yours.

Re:Multiplayer methods

[tepples]

What I'm trying to say is that looking like a console to PC port isn't always a bad thing.

Re:Multiplayer methods

[Decker-Mage]

What I'm trying to say is that looking like a console to PC port isn't always a bad thing.

One of the early Android apps (7+ at the very least) seem to be virtualization hosts for console games. Naw, nobody wants to run console games on their tablet, do they?

WinRT != largest personal computing ecosystem

[tepples]

So it would be alright in your book, if developing for the world's largest personal computing ecosystem eventually became as restricted as on a gaming console?

Windows RT is not exactly "the world's largest personal computing ecosystem", and Windows for x86 still runs OpenGL.

My theory..

[Junta]

I see two possibliities:
MS is sufficiently deluded that they genuinely think doubling down on Silverlight based technology while forcing tighter lockin to MS store and services is going to work and lead to rapid obsolecence of their existing software ecosystem without anything of significance lost. This seems to fly against all evidence and reason, but I wouldn't put it past them.

The other possibility is that WindowsRT isn't *that* serious an endeavor. Enough invested to make it *real* and maybe even take off in the unlikely scenario described above. Not enough to actually enable the large third-party application base that remains MS' sole meaningful advantage nowadays. The hope may be to scare AMD and Intel to worry more and work harder to provide compelling x86 compatible solutions amenable to the same physical form factors that are being popularized in iOS and Android devices. The strongest evidence of this that I can see is how both AMD and Intel have pretty much explicitly come out and said their next big thing in the mobile space is very much designed exclusively for Windows usage. Linux (notably Android) have been de-emphasized by both Intel and AMD for those chips as they go out of their way to endorse Windows 8. This could either be due to pressure/threats from MS but it also might be explained by Intel's relative failure to attract real partnerships in the Android space despite an earnest effort to do so, which would drive both AMD and Intel to realize that they really need microsoft to retain competitive advantage over non-x86 architectures.

High-level emulation

[tepples]

Sure, you can emulate stuff. But what performance will you get?

An emulator that has been properly integrated into the operating system uses a technique called "high-level emulation", in which syscalls run as native code. This was true of the 68LC040 emulator in Mac OS 7.5 through 9, it was true of an early Nintendo 64 (MIPS R4k) emulator called UltraHLE, and it was true of the PowerPC emulator in Mac OS X Leopard and Snow Leopard. So for applications that spend most of their time in WaitForEvent() or other syscalls, such as anything that isn't a recent 3D game, performance will likely be acceptable.

Can't install "Metro" applications on Windows 7

[tepples]

and Windows 8 x86 too, you can not install "Metro" applications

So what? You can't install "Metro" applications on Windows 7 either. What is being lost?

Why is this big issue? iOS does it too

[ninjacut]

The biggest advantage for Windows was becoming it biggest problem, no way to find out which application is safe and which is not. On OS front they made considerable progress after XP SP6, but the weak area was still applications the end user will download and screw up the machine. All blames came to OS. Now they have learnt, thanks to Apple, that a controlled experience is better especially for tablets and phones with limited resources. iOS, Android all started the same way and its still beneficial to non-technical user community. Everybody blamed the OS when performance was bad, not to all those gazillion applications consuming CPU, network, IO cycles. So restricting this for ARM based computers is the right way, on the traditional x86 you can still code and all applications work the same way.

XNA

[tepples]

Xbox 360 developers have direct access to hardware.

Developers accepted through the more selective process do, but XNA developers don't. Everything in a game that uses XNA must be written in a language that compiles to CIL, and the only hardware access is through the XNA API, which resembles a managed version of DirectX.

Open Platforms

[catchblue22]

Given the moves towards walled gardens by both MS and Apple, I am making my own moves towards open or more open platforms. Debian laptop. XBMC set-top box with linux. Android phone. Possibly a linux tablet. And I am encouraging the same from those around me. Open computing is too important to lose.

Re:Open Platforms

[Anonymous Coward]

"Android phone." Oh yeah because breaking out of a walled garden is so much harder than keeping your data private from a company that uses you as a product.

Everybody's Doing It

[FyberOptic]

There's so much whining about the ARM version of Windows 8. Android and iOS already lock the user down to one app store. Microsoft is doing the exact same thing. If you want to install non-app store software, you'll just have to "root" your device (or rather, the equivalent of bypassing such normal operation, just in this case for such a non-Unix-based OS), which you know as well as I do will be possible in no time. And are we really complaining about the restrictions on getting an app published by Microsoft after all of the debacles we've seen with Apple's service thus far?

Seriously, all of this is a non issue. Technically it will probably end up actually benefiting Windows desktop users, because you'll finally have a cross-platform application format. It won't be great for everything, of course, but for popular mobile games and certain apps it'll be handy.

Re:Everybody's Doing It

[Ash-Fox]

Android and iOS already lock the user down to one app store. Microsoft is doing the exact same thing. If you want to install non-app store software, you'll just have to "root" your device

You're being misleading, stock Android does not lock you down to one app store, the only thing you have to do with stock Android is to enable 'installation of software from unknown sources' if you want to install things without the app store, which can be done in a few seconds. No hacking/rooting or whatever.

Re:Everybody's Doing It

[FyberOptic]

I wasn't being misleading, I was pointing out that these devices all have a standard app store which the majority of all owners will only ever use, mostly because the average consumer is too dumb to use anything different. Therefore, what Microsoft is doing here is exactly the same.

As for installing applications from elsewhere in Windows RT, look into side-loading. And Microsoft has never really been much for locking users down in terms of applications they can run, so I don't really see them pulling an Apple here on a platform they're trying this hard to promote. I can, however, see Apple eventually turning OSX into a glorified iOS.

Re:Everybody's Doing It

[Ash-Fox]

I was pointing out that these devices all have a standard app store which the majority of all owners will only ever use, mostly because the average consumer is too dumb to use anything different.

No, you were talking about

If you want to install non-app store software, you'll just have to "root" your device

which is not the case on stock Android. Comparing a platform you have to root to another you don't and saying it's the same thing is rather ludicrous in my opinion.

And Microsoft has never really been much for locking users down in terms of applications they can run

I thought http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2012/01/25/windows-phone-8-specifications-rumor-windows-8-kernel-and-more/ was fairly interesting and did not seem that unlikely of a situation.

You make a good case for the Nexus 7

[tepples]

You do know that tablets can have 3G (4G) [or] a mobile hot-spot

I'm aware that they can, but how many actually do? Please see my reply to toriver.

How about tethering?

To switch from my current phone plan to one allowing tethering would cost an additional $45 per month: $30/mo to switch from a flip phone on a $5/mo payLo plan to an Android phone on a $35/mo Beyond Talk plan, plus $15/mo for the tethering rider. (source)

I can't speak for anyone else since cervical bone-spurs are doing a number on my typing

If you have a typing impairment, and you have found the Nexus 7's speech recognition to work well for dictation, then I guess the Nexus 7 is the right choice for you. I too have a Nexus 7; I ought to try dictation on mine to see if it can "wreck a nice beach" as well as you claim it does, especially with someone else in the household playing the TV or radio at such a volume to be heard in another room. We'll have to wait and see whether dictation on the Surface is any good.

Given Notch's track record

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say he probably just doesn't want to actually do the work required to get it certified. The guy hates working, especially now that he's a multimillionaire and should be on easy street.

Who cares...

[Anonymous Coward]

If he's got a copy on the Apple app store for iDevices, he's just being hypocritical here.

I don't get it

[bUSHwEEd]

Sure the Windows store is closed, but you can run unsigned apps more easily on Windows 8 than on the latest Mac OS. The Windows store itself is no more closed than Steam or iOS, and MUCH more open than XBLA ( not indie games ). And there's no lock down forcing you to use Windows Store apps, so Steam and all of it's games seem to work just fine. I was playing Limbo recently on my work Windows 8 machine, and a colleague of mine has been consistently playing Guild Wars, StarCraft 2 and Just Cause. Maybe they won't work on ARM, but then do many desktop apps work on ARM devices? Because i'm developing for it, I've been running Windows 8 at work since first developer preview, and have just installed RTM on my home laptop. I just don't understand all the hate it's getting, since i feel it's a step up from Windows 7. I still hit the Windows button and type the name of an app that I want, a function that works a lot better on Windows 8 than in Windows 7's slow-to-search start menu. I can even add external ( non-installed ) apps like Eclipse to the new Start page directly from Explorer without creating stupid shortcuts in some hidden start menu folder. And all the fud about MS giving up on desktop is nonsense. There have been subtle, but good improvements to the desktop experience, ranging from improved copy dialogs ( which can finally pause and stack - something I loved in KDE ) to a decent ribbon interface for Explorer windows. My only gripe is the right side settings charm on a multi-monitor setup. To be honest, i think the touch experience is not nearly as good as the desktop experience. I think there's a lot of people opening their mouths without having tested Windows 8 for prolonged periods.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonymous Coward]

Lack of RTFA is common, but you apparently failed to even RTFS. DIe in a fire.

Re:I don't get it

[Ash-Fox]

Sure the Windows store is closed, but you can run unsigned apps more easily on Windows 8 than on the latest Mac OS.

Okay, can you explain how I do it on an Arm system running Windows 8?

Re:I don't get it

[bUSHwEEd]

The software has to be built with an ARM compiler. In the same way an iPad app doesn't work out of the box on OSX, a Windows exe from x86 architecture will never work on Windows ARM.

From what I've seen, Windows 8 ARM comes with a full desktop and the ability to run exe files built for ARM. So if someone bothers to actually try and build their app with an ARM compiler, it'll probably just work.
Sideloading Metro apps should also be possible, as it is on the desktop. I might be wrong, but as far as i know there's nothing stopping you from opening up a powershell and running add-appxpackage. You just need an ARM build of the Metro app.
Aside from that, iOS devices don't allow sideloading unless you crack them, and this is a platform Notch has released on.

Re:I don't get it

[Ash-Fox]

The software has to be built with an ARM compiler.

So, would you say the following information is incorrect?

Native "Metro" applications don't and won't need to be built with an Arm compiler, nor can they can be ran on a Windows 8 Arm system without certification (Microsoft requires certification, no opt out on Arm). Native Arm executables cannot be ran on the system because Microsoft are not giving out certifications for native Arm binaries, due to their certification requirements being that "Metro" applications are not native code.

i know there's nothing stopping you from opening up a powershell and running add-appxpackage.

Would you also say this information is incorrect?

It still won't let you run the applications as they won't be signed.

Re:I don't get it

[bUSHwEEd]

Metro applications are native code, and the ARM versions need to be built with the Visual Studio ARM compiler.
And it may very well have no issues with running unsigned applications once you change the execution policy, but i'm not sure. It's very possible that Microsoft will block unsigned party metro apps, much like iOS and Android do - altho with Android it's just a toggle. ARM devices are not intended to be a desktop replacement, if you want that you need to go for the x86 tablets running Windows 8. But again, i don't see them blocking ARM desktop apps, as you can run exe files built for ARM.

Windows 8 is a joke...

[Anonymous Coward]

and not a very funny one either!