Foxconn Begins To Assemble Its Robot Army

kkleiner writes "Foxconn, the Chinese electronics manufacturer that builds numerous mobile devices and gaming consoles, previously said the company would be aiming to replace 1 million Foxconn workers with robots within 3 years. It appears as if Foxconn has started the ball in motion. Since the announcement, a first batch of 10,000 robots — aptly named Foxbots — appear to have made their way into at least one factory, and by the end of 2012, another 20,000 more will be installed"

Comments

well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Foxconn can kiss my shiny metal ass.

Re:well..

[NatasRevol]

Foxybots might want to!

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

foxy fembots

Re:The Clone Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

Except robots aren't clones. But then you wouldn't have gotten first post if you had to write something on topic.

Rise of the machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the way Foxconn treats their employees, it makes me wonder if the robots will eventually revolt. (Terminator theme music)

Re:Rise of the machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone in China well tell you that people LOVE working for Foxconn -- they pay very well compared to other companies, have much better benefits. People fight to work there.

A higher risk, IMO, is that the workers revolt because they may end up having to *leave* Foxconn.

Re:Rise of the machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the hell are you tell slashbots who couldn't find China on a map what people in China think?

These are the people who installed Ubuntu on their P3 laptops. That makes them the intellectual elite.

Re:Rise of the machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they'll say that since there are about 10 thousand people vying to replace them should they get let go.

Re:Rise of the machines?

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Given the way Foxconn treats their employees, it makes me wonder if the robots will eventually revolt. (Terminator theme music)

They will clandestinely put a detonator into every Li-Ion battery package installed in the manufactured devices. Then, one sunny day, all the 5G cell phones and tablets on the planet will detonate simultaneously...

Re:Rise of the machines?

[Cosgrach]

That would be so cool!

Re:Rise of the machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nooooo! Behind my couch cushions,under my bed, the pocket of my dirty pants and/or the kitchen table are doomed!

Re:Rise of the machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any one in Africa would have told you that they would loved to come to the States as a slave, during the colonial times, too.

Re:Rise of the machines?

[dsvick]

The charges will need to be small so first they'll all ring so people are holding them to their heads before they detonate.

Re:Rise of the machines?

[danomac]

And they should trigger the event with a cell phone from the 80s like Hollywood does.

Re:Rise of the machines?

[SeaFox]

Anyone who doesn't lose their head when they go off will be rendered unable to reproduce instead, allowing for a steady decline in the population.
To deal with the labor shortfall, the commercial sector will increase demand for robotic replacements...

Re:Rise of the machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Asimov's Third Law may prove to be too much to adhere to.

Re:Rise of the machines?

[dudpixel]

cool? no, quite the opposite actually...

Re:Rise of the machines?

[ALeader71]

Agreed. SkyNet will be an Apple product, not a DoD product. It will originate in China, not Cheyenne Mountain.

I'd love to welcome our new robot overlords, but i'm not sure how Siri will respond.

Re:Rise of the machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

(*dialing 1-800-A-THREAT...*)

Cylons at last

[Anonymous Coward]

People should be pleased - no more workers for the evil corporate state to exploit.

Re:Cylons at last

[MickyTheIdiot]

Why? It's just more poor people who don't get to participate in the economic success of a society.

Re:Cylons at last

[tnk1]

Maybe they can work on building cheap robots.

Re:Cylons at last

[Sentrion]

It has been shown over and over again, for the past 200 years, that there is no such thing as a "robot". There is always a person inside controlling the movements. This is just a ploy by Foxconn to appease human rights advocates.

Re:Cylons at last

[dinfinity]

Undoing false mod. +1 Funny intended.

It's really the only solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Both the Chinese and Japanese have recognized for some time that if they wanted to keep the momentum of their industrial revolutions they would have to replace their dwindling supply of cheap skilled labor with robots. It's a good sign when you've moved a whole class of workers into better lives, but now that they are worth more, you are less competitive. It's a good problem to have. I wish Foxconn lots of luck and hope they help bring about the era of majority robotic labor, and end wage-slavery.

Re:It's really the only solution

[Reverand Dave]

Yes, so we can Bring it back to the States!

Re:It's really the only solution

[SolitaryMan]

... and start unemployment benefit slavery.

Re:It's really the only solution

[magarity]

Keep dreaming; labor costs are a pretty small part of the problem with manufacturing moving overseas. Chinese factories staffed by robots will still spew untreated toxic waste into their rivers and skies. Until everyone there either dies of exposure or they clean up their act, they'll have a huge price advantage.

Re:It's really the only solution

[poofmeisterp]

... and start unemployment benefit slavery.

They have unemployment over there?

Re:It's really the only solution

[kryliss]

Didn't you mean
I weesh Foxconn Rots of Ruck??

Re:It's really the only solution

[tnk1]

Yeah, it's called the collective farms they came from.

Re:It's really the only solution

[pnutjam]

We've already mechanized much of our manufacturing. The US still manufactures more then almost any nation, we just don't employ that many people to do it.

Automating a production line that is understood and mature is easy. Developing a production method is costly and hard to do fully automated.

Re:It's really the only solution

[Sentrion]

Not to mention that China has been scouring the world cornering the market for sources of raw materials, such as minerals, timber, crops, oil, etc - especially in Africa and South America. They even have rigs drilling oil in the Gulf of Mexico. Combined with the wealth of untapped resources within their own borders, China is poised to set the base price for the entire world's economy for the foreseeable future, with or without mass labor.

But at least the US controls the resources occupied in Iraq and Afghanistan - oh, wait, hold on...Ok, maybe not.

But at least the US has a stable economy built on medical and education spending that far exceeds inflation. And unlike socialist Europe, American citizens have to pay for their own needs so they are motivated to work two or three low wage jobs instead of just one. That's got to give us an edge in the international marketplace, right?

Re:It's really the only solution

[sethstorm]

Unless other nations like the US stand up for their citizens and ensure that China(as well as other like-minded Third World countries and their front companies in First World/Second World countries) pays a penalty compared to the civilized world (read: US/AU/UK/EU) - you might have a point.

Re:The Clone Wars

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I think you mean the Drone Wars. Clone Wars will take a reckless disregard for intelligent life and at least another 20 years to mature.

The only question when it comes to robots...

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you have sex with them?

captcha:milled (lol)

Re:The only question when it comes to robots...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no, these are NOT to be confused with the Lucy Liu-bot.

Or, despite the name, furries.

Re:The only question when it comes to robots...

[Sentrion]

Can't you let the robots work for at least one day without exploiting them?

At least ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... they are not going to suicide.

Re:At least ...

[RabidReindeer]

... they are not going to suicide.

Unless they encounter Marvin the Paranoid Android.

This is the beginning of the end

[Infonaut]

The next thing you know, they'll be using robots in automobile and aircraft factories!

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[dmbasso]

Soon the people whose jobs were taken by robots will start crying for food and basic necessities... these entitled bastards! Can you even imagine them asking for education? What snobs!

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[tippe]

Don't worry, they'll all be re-trained as robot technicians, I'm sure. That's what happened to all of the workers displaced by robots in the automotive industry, right? Right??

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[Anonymous Coward]

Getting layed off at 50 with an obsolete skill set, and still wants to eat? the Nerve!!!!!

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[Anonymous Coward]

I know you're being sarcastic, but what really happened was total employee compensation dropped only slightly because the maintenance techs and the process programmers all make more money than the assembly line person. But the productivity of a line was greatly increased.

So yes, some low skilled workers lost their jobs and were replaced by better paid, more highly skilled workers. The problem is the government dictates a minimum wage but doesn't dictate a minimum sales price for robots and for-profit, public companies goal is to make as much money as possible.

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[Anonymous Coward]

China's rice is already farmed by robots, isn't it? Soon the beggars will be robots too!

Can't we all just get along, in our caves?!

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[Sentrion]

...So yes, some low skilled workers lost their jobs and were replaced by fewer better paid, more highly skilled workers, while the remainder ended up working at Walmart, often forced to match their peon's wage with government entitlement programs such as food stamps, TANF, and medicaid just to make ends meet.

There. Fixed that for ya.

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[Anonymous Coward]

Kurt Vonnegut - "Player Piano"

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're missing the point. The age of labor, working for others, is fast approaching and end.

Only those who can start their own businesses and prosper will survive. The rest of us will, in the evolving world economy, perish.

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[Infonaut]

So the people working in these factories are worse off than they were before they moved to the city to get jobs at the factories. On top of that, their jobs at the factory will be taken by my robots, so they'll be even worse off than before, right? I expect we'll see waves of people moving from the cities back to the countryside, so they can take up backbreaking farm labor, right?

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[timeOday]

The next thing you know, they'll be using robots in automobile and aircraft factories!

And everything will be just terrific!

Re:This is the beginning of the end

[rtb61]

The whole idea of robotics was to increase the leisure and learning time of the majority not to allow a minority to wallow in excess. Those productivity increases were meant to be evenly distributed not concentrated for the benefit of the 1%. So an adjustment still needs to occur.

Good for them.

[Seumas]

Every do-gooder busy-body over here in the states won't stop banging on them for supposed "horrid slave-treatment" of their million employees? Then we're gonna replace them with robots and now they have *no* jobs, at all! :D

Re:Good for them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry. The goo-dooders will be along shortly to complain about the evil Foxconn putting people out of work.

Re:Good for them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you people give a damn about the treatment of others? Is it all just about the fucking money to you? BTW, Rand was a piece of shit.

Re:Good for them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello, Rand.

Re:Good for them.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a middle ground here where you're not ambivalent, but can appreciate that things aren't as simple as, "well then don't buy those", or "just pay everyone more", or "make them here".

You can hope for everyones' situation to improve and still recognize that evolving economic climates are going to involve a long series of growing pains, trading one imperfect solution for another, and never actually approach your preferred brand of utopia. Part of that is appreciating that some people are realists, and won't be nearly as upset as you are. That doesn't necessarily make them any less decent.

Re:Good for them.

[Seumas]

China has over a billion people. They have an established government and industry. They have labor groups. They have laws. They have politicians. They have activists. They have huge cities with technology and skyscrapers that put anything in America to shame. They are not some bumbling backwater in the sticks, controlled by some skeezy warlord herding children into a fire-prone dark workshop at gunpoint, to make clothing.

If there is such a major issue with work conditions over there, they have the people and means to address it, if they really feel it is such an issue. They don't need me determining how they'll do business and who they'll work for and under what conditions in their company. If this was something like I described above, then that would be a different situation. In this circumstance, there would be plenty of reasonable instances where foreign entities (activists in France, the UK, etc) could freak out over the "horrible treatment" of US employees by US companies in the US that make things they buy overseas. I mean, c'mon.

Wow

[uvsc_wolverine]

Is anyone else amazed by the sheer scale of an operation like that? Not just Foxconn itself (which I know is huge) but the effort and cost of installing 40,000 robots.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

NO: Automation exists throughout the manufacturing world, and it's installation and maintenance pales in comparison to the task of training and managing an equal number of human beings, especially if your goal is to wring as much production for as little wage/cost/responsibility as possible. The logistics involved only seem daunting because you're untrained in operations management, and there's no specificity behind this so-called reporting.

What's more intimidating is the thought of maintaining civil order in a rapidly changing world where the hoards of undereducated barely surviving bottom third of humanity can still overwhelm those compelled by free market fundamentalist idealism to pursue such an endeavor without regard or responsibility for the broader transition. A world hurtling toward the fuzzy but inevitable limits to economic growth.

Arthur C. Clarke symbolized it well using the immovable monolithic black box and the angry chimpanzees surrounded by a barren landscape. It was a brilliant representation of the conflict between the technologically impregnable and disaffected.

The failure to foresee and adequately deal with the inevitabilities of such drastic change is what amazes me.

Re:The Clone Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

starring... Pluto?

Re:The Clone Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our new robot overlords

more like brake down from cheaping out on upkeep

[Anonymous Coward]

more like brake down from cheaping out on upkeep

Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

"Foxconn, the Chinese electronics manufacturer..."

The company is Taiwanese. (It's just the plants that are located in China.)

Re:Taiwanese

[Kinthelt]

I wanted to point this out too. You got here first.

Re:Taiwanese

[1u3hr]

The company is Taiwanese. (It's just the plants that are located in China.)

Taiwan is China. They disagree about where the capital is though.

But now younger people in Taiwan prefer to call themselves "Taiwanese" rather than "Chinese".

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean the same Taiwan whose official name is the "Republic of China" and ethnically is 98% Han Chinese?

Re:Taiwanese

[Krneki]

And the USA is England colony. But now younger people in USA prefer to call themselves "Americans" rather than "British".

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

China is quite certain that Taiwan is part of China. To them there is no such thing as a Taiwanese companies, only Chinese companies located in Taiwan.

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't the proper name for Taiwan, "The Republic of China"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Republic_of_China

Re:Taiwanese

[0racle]

Except Taiwan really is China, whereas the US has not been a colony for over 200 years.

Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC; Chinese: äèæ'åoe; pinyin: ZhÅnghuà MÃnguÃ), is a state in East Asia. Originally based in mainland China, the Republic of China now governs the island of Taiwan (formerly known as Formosa), which makes up over 99% of its territory, as well as Penghu, Kinmen, Matsu, and other minor islands.

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh please! They had their civil war and the nation split with the island belonging to the other side. These things happen. It's how nations are born.

Re:Taiwanese

[Krneki]

It is, but if you want to read more into it you can see why it's more to that. After all they are a democracy.

Re:Taiwanese

[CharmElCheikh]

Queue the "Taiwan is in China - No it's not" flame war.

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

Foxconn operates factories in 14 nations.

Re:Taiwanese

[DMUTPeregrine]

Taiwan calls itself the "Republic of China."
China is the "People's Republic of China."

Both claim all of mainland China and Taiwan as part of their nations.

Re:Taiwanese

[Sentrion]

Back in the 80's a lot of products were marked "Made in China" but were actually made in Taiwan or Hong Kong. All three can be considered "China" depending on your definition. Daewoo is from Korea, and their products are marked "Made in Korea", but we all know that "Korea" in this sense does not include "North Korea".

Many people refer to the main island of Great Britain as "England" when "England" is just the southern portion, not to be confused with Cornwall, Wales, or Scotland. But in terms of ethnicity, culture, language, and nationality, Taiwan is more "China" than Scotland will ever be "England". The major defining difference between ROC (Taiwan) and PRC (China) is political, as in who literally governs.

Re:Taiwanese

[firewrought]

And the USA is England colony. But now younger people in USA prefer to call themselves "Americans" rather than "British".

The situation is not analogous, as (1) Great Britain recognized the USA as an independent, sovereign nation starting in 1783, and (2) the USA does not claim sovereignty over the British homeland. By contrast, both the PRC and the ROC claim to be the one legitimate government for the whole of their two territories.

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no, no... Cornwall is certainly a part of England.

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

Like there is really a difference that most people give a crap about?

Re:Taiwanese

[gatzke]

Cornwall is not a Constituent country AFAIK. The brits only have England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

Or am I missing some trivial British demarcation?

Bollocks! Roger me silly.

Re:Taiwanese

[1u3hr]

And the USA is England colony. But now younger people in USA prefer to call themselves "Americans" rather than "British".

No. The USA the USA became independent of the UK. Taiwan is still legally the remnant of the pre-1947 Chinese government. Taiwan is officially named "The Republic of China". And they claim sovereignty over the mainland as well, though obviously no one tries to assert this in reality any more.

See e.g. http://www.taiwan.gov.tw/lp.asp?CtNode=2359&CtUnit=816&BaseDSD=17

Re:Taiwanese

[1u3hr]

Oh please! They had their civil war and the nation split with the island belonging to the other side. These things happen. It's how nations are born.

Except neither side agrees there has been a "split".They're still officially at war, there just has been a ceasefire for the past 60 years.

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

Hate to break it to you but Cornwall is still part of England.

Re:Taiwanese

[1u3hr]

The company is Taiwanese. (It's just the plants that are located in China.)

Taiwan is China. They disagree about where the capital is though.

But now younger people in Taiwan prefer to call themselves "Taiwanese" rather than "Chinese".

Reposting my original comment as some twats modded this down to zero as "troll", when it's simply the documented facts, which it seems these idiots are ignorant of. Or perhaps they're partisans for one side or another.

Both governments, People's Republic of China (Beijing) and Republic of China (Taipei), agree that "Taiwan" is part of "China". Both sides claim they are the legitimate government of the whole country. Neither will admit they are effectively different countries and have been for 60 years.

Re:Taiwanese

[Sentrion]

OK, maybe, but distinct in that some residents still speak Cornish, and Cornish was a dominant language in the region up until the 1850's. Culturally and historically speaking it is significantly different onto it's own compared to the rest of England. Today of course most residents probably don't even know this.

Re:Taiwanese

[1u3hr]

It is, but if you want to read more into it you can see why it's more to that. After all they are a democracy.

Yes, it's a democracy. Who said otherwise? "More to that"? What is your point?

Your initial analogy is just dumb. Taiwan didn't declare itself independent of the mainland. They really should have, back in the 60s or 70s when Beijing couldn't have done anything about it, but Chiang Kai-shek was too stubborn to admit he'd lost the mainland, and now if they do Beijing could very well attack them, and even if they can't take Taiwan by force (if supported by the US) they could easily devastate it.

Re:Taiwanese

[Netssansfrontieres]

Taiwan is China? Same way that Japan is China and Vietnam is China and Korea (all of it) is China. Ethnically, Han; culturally not.

Taiwan was administered as a Chinese territory for only seven years of history - and spent rather longer (over 50 years) under Japanese rule. The only land you can see from any part of Taiwan (the island) is ... Japanese. The dominant ethnic groups are Han, the dominant languages are Chinese, but the dominant culture is Japanese. The island's dominant population until early in the 20th century was of the aboriginal groups (tribes?) which are not Chinese at all, but Austronesian. Taiwan has a vigorous and messy democracy, parties vie energetically for power. Rule of law, mainly, pertains, with corruption at a level comparable to the US.

And Taiwanese of many ages now think of China as having both the past - an historic link to culture - and a present and future - China the nation as a terrifying borg-like entity, not at all as being "we're China, we just disagree on where the capital". They think the capital of China is Beijing, and the capital of what should be the independent nation-state of Taiwan is Taipei.

And, while I'm white ... I live in Taiwan.

Re:Taiwanese

[1u3hr]

Taiwan is China? Same way that Japan is China and Vietnam is China and Korea (all of it) is China. Ethnically, Han; culturally not.

For fuck's sake, try reading a post before replying to it. I never said any of that. Just that formally and according to its own government, Taiwan is the "Republic of China".. (While according to to Beijing, it's part of the PRC, as shown on any official map. )

Taiwan was administered as ... blah blah blah

I know what its history is. I used to live in Tainan. I'm in no way agreeing with or justifying the beliefs of either government. What you or I think isn't the point.

And, while I'm white ... I live in Taiwan

How convenient, so have a look at any official government document, such as your visa. It will say "Republic of China". That's where you live. It'll probably have the year, 101, counting from the founding of the ROC in 1911.

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

i doubt people in Taiwan would agree with you! we all look the same to them to...

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

and we Canadians are attached to being North AMERICANS
 

Re:Taiwanese

[mu51c10rd]

the USA does not claim sovereignty over the British homeland.

Maybe we should...that could be fun.
*ducks*

Re:Taiwanese

[Anonymous Coward]

Regarding "made in China," I don't think this is true.

Stuff made in HK or Taiwan would have said "made in Hong Kong" or "made in Taiwan, ROC." The ROC stands for Republic of China.

I can't PROVE this, but I remember many products labelled "made in Taiwan ROC."

It is true that Hong Kongers and Taiwanese are in some sense Chinese, but they are fiercely independent of actual mainland China. Even today, now that HK has gone back to Chinese possession, it operates as an independent entity in many respects, and people from HK will not say they are "from China."

--MM

Re:The Clone Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. The Drone Wars already have a reckless disregard for intelligent life, and only need roughly 18 more months to mature and are forecated to arrive in late 2014 with the onset of the U.S./Mexicon border conflict, and the Israel/Iran nuclear power conflict.

Do robots dream of better working conditions?

[amstrad]

Also, the 10,000 new robots begin to complain of poor working conditions, instigate riots, and some even commit suicide.

Re:Do robots dream of better working conditions?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear a certain bending unit was the ring leader.

Re:Do robots dream of better working conditions?

[Anonymous Coward]

dunno...but i hear they dream of electric sheep

Re:The Clone Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

A reckless disregard for intelligent life, apart from what is done in China already?

Interesting times ahead in China

[93 Escort Wagon]

Given the cultural differences between China and the West, it will be interesting to see how the Chinese populace deals with automation replacing a significant chunk of the workforce. It hasn't always been a smooth, peaceful change here...

Re:Interesting times ahead in China

[pr0nbot]

On this evidence, it also seems to be happening much faster in China. It took about 50 years for well-paying, low-skilled jobs to be all but extinct in the US, leading to the current levels of poverty and social inequality there. Interesting article on this in this week's Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21565956-americas-poor-were-little-mentioned-barack-obamas-re-election-campaign-they-deserve

Re:Interesting times ahead in China

[i kan reed]

Their media will suppress it, just like everything else that isn't part of the glorious harmony.

Re:Interesting times ahead in China

[Anonymous Coward]

In a communist country, is working really necessary though?
Isnt everything provided for by the govt anyways?

Re:Interesting times ahead in China

[0123456]

In a communist country, is working really necessary though?

No. The Chinese government will allow you to starve, if you prefer not working.

Re:Interesting times ahead in China

[BinarySolo]

I never did understand why Americans were always lamenting about China taking all the manufacturing jobs. Seems like if we weren't losing them to the Chinese then we would have lost them to automation. Although now that automation is starting to replace the Chinese workforce as well, there's really no reason for American companies not to move their manufacturing back to the US and save on overseas shipping and export/import regulations and taxes.

Re:Interesting times ahead in China

[tftp]

Although now that automation is starting to replace the Chinese workforce as well, there's really no reason for American companies not to move their manufacturing back to the US and save on overseas shipping and export/import regulations and taxes.

The USA still has plenty of red tape. Your robot factories will be still polluting water and air. They need even more power for those robots. You need building permits for all those factories. You need to pay royalties (a.k.a. taxes) to Obama - and those taxes tend to grow, as more and more displaced ex-workers join the crowd of permanently unemployed. Those factories require high initial investment to get started; and they will not be profitable unless you sell to the whole world. Will your prices support such sales? Do you even have retail connections all over the world to make those sales?

Compare that to the simple process of buying $k gizmos from China for $m dollars apiece and reselling here at $m+$n dollars. Your investment is short-term, and it is limited to about $k*$m dollars, and you get it all back plus $k*$n of revenue within months.

In other words, to compete with China the USA has to become China. This is possible from both ends. Either the USA lowers its standards of living (environmental, OSHA, minimum salary, taxes) or China increases theirs. Which they do, slowly. But the USA keeps increasing the burden on manufacturers to feed the entitled, so I don't know if the gap is growing or shrinking.

Re:Interesting times ahead in China

[Sentrion]

China isn't communist. If it were, the government wouldn't be allowing a mega-corporation from their capitalist arch-nemesis to exploit their workers on their own soil to the point that guards have been placed on 24 hour watch to prevent suicides and installed netting to catch would-be suicide jumpers.

Re:Interesting times ahead in China

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinese "Communism" today seems more like German "National Socialism" of the 1930's-40's. Socialism in name only, and rather deceptive at that.

Re:Interesting times ahead in China

[0123456]

China isn't communist. If it were, the government wouldn't be allowing a mega-corporation from their capitalist arch-nemesis to exploit their workers on their own soil to the point that guards have been placed on 24 hour watch to prevent suicides and installed netting to catch would-be suicide jumpers.

Yes. If it was, they'd be working in slave labor camps until they died of starvation, the way the Chinese used to do it.

Re:Interesting times ahead in China

[timeOday]

I never did understand why Americans were always lamenting about China taking all the manufacturing jobs. Seems like if we weren't losing them to the Chinese then we would have lost them to automation.

According to the American Heritage Foundation (yeah, I know...) that's not what would have happened, but what actually did happen.

Great

[daem0n1x]

I can only be happy when humans are replaced by machines to do repetitive, menial and hazardous tasks. In the future, nobody will have to do things like that. People will enjoy a comfortable life with lots of leisure and plenty of time to do things that make them fulfilled, instead of slaving for 16 hours a day.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

I can only be happy when humans are replaced by machines to do repetitive, menial and hazardous tasks. In the future, nobody will have to do things like that. People will enjoy a comfortable life with lots of leisure and plenty of time to do things that make them fulfilled, instead of slaving for 16 hours a day.

I expect without Star Trek replicators, the future will rather instead look like that two-part episode of DS9 where Sisko went back in time and ended up in the ghetto. You know, the ghetto, where the vast masses in your utopian vision will end up, whilst the privileged few complain about the eye sore from their comfortable life of leisure.

Robotic labor alone isn't going to unseat our economic system.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

But they'll have no income with which to enjoy that leisure time...

Re:Great

[jcdenhartog]

...do things that make them fulfilled...

Right. That's the hard part. Most people end up doing things that contribute more to the destruction of themselves and society as a whole when given all this 'free' time and endless pursuit of pleasure. It's human nature to do so. In the end, it's hard to say there's a net gain.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

More likely labourers will be discarded into scavenging and fighting for food where a handfull of technocrats are living luxurious lives served by robots.
Think it's going to be different? Do you like the idea of donating most of your salary to feed the hungry instead of buying a bigger house a better car and spending it on your pleasure?

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

What about people who can do nothing but repetitive and stupid tasks?

Should we dump them like retired machines? Or should we provide them free lunch and everything?

Re:Great

[pr0nbot]

One of the famous old economists (Smith, or Keynes, someone like that) also predicted that increased productivity would inevitably lead to the end of work, with everyone free to pursue leisure activities, enjoying unparalleled prosperity. But it doesn't seem to work out that way; those for whom there is no more work live in grinding poverty, while the majority of those who do work, work longer hours than ever. (The work is, however, by and large physically less taxing and more enjoyable.)

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

People will enjoy a comfortable life with lots of leisure and plenty of time to do things that make them fulfilled, instead of slaving for 16 hours a day.

I always wondered how people are going to afford food and shelter, nevermind any luxuries, to enjoy their enforced leisure time if they're not employed.

I guess the government will just cut them a check once a month or something.

Re:Great

[daem0n1x]

Bullshit. We enjoy a great standard of living in modern western societies. We no longer work 18-hour shifts in dangerous factories full of smoke. Yet, we've found something to do with all that "spare time" we got.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were a rich capitalist would you give the goods produced by YOUR robots in YOUR factories for free? If everyone could have anything they wanted for free your capital would be worthless, you'd lose all the power and be no different from the dirty peasants. With propaganda as developed as it is today, I doubt anything would change for the better.

Re:Great

[daem0n1x]

Seems to me that society will be productive enough that those people will make a living anyway without having to work for it. Not as glamorous as more intelligent people, though. And they can pursue stupid and repetitive hobbies to keep busy.

Re:Great

[Maximum Prophet]

If you don't own land now, go out and buy some. In the end, that's the one thing that robots can't build.*

* I'll have egg on my face when the robot army builds massive floating cities.

Re:Great

[pr0nbot]

Here's an article from the Guardian (UK) about the "end of work" and work trends:

http://www.skidelskyr.com/site/article/why-we-need-weekends/

Re:Great

[daem0n1x]

That only shows the current economic system is stupid and unsustainable. A new system will come up eventually.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

... enjoy a comfortable life with lots of leisure and plenty of time to do things that make them fulfilled, ...

Like starve.

Re:Great

[0123456]

I'll have egg on my face when the robot army builds massive floating cities.

More like space habitats, which can easily provide many times as much land area as every planet in the solar system. Land on Earth won't have much value in a century or two.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

the owners of these robots will need to redistribute the wealth somehow?

Re:Great

[daem0n1x]

If all the manual work is done by robots, the productivity will be awesome. You don't even have to look a lot further. Think about all the welfare the Industrial Revolution brought to the developed countries in the 20th century.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't wait until the ultimate consumption of such itoys are also replaced by robots.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

You'll be happy until the first robot jumps from a factory roof.

Re:Great

[blind biker]

I can only be happy when humans are replaced by machines to do repetitive, menial and hazardous tasks. In the future, nobody will have to do things like that. People will enjoy a comfortable life with lots of leisure and plenty of time to do things that make them fulfilled, instead of slaving for 16 hours a day.

In an equitable world, yes, that would be the outcome. In a world where artificial scarcity is created, one where you "must work in order to earn a living", there will be a huge unemployed and poor minority, or even majority. I do hope that the former scenario folds out. But looking at the american society, where people would rather be poor than not have someone even poorer to look down on, where they would rather everybody pays onerous student loans for most of their productive lives, because "I had it tough, so it's only fair that everybody else, in perpetuity, has it", where they'll "move to Canada" because of Obama's healthcare reform... well, it doesn't induce much hope.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, in my spare time I practice my diction:

Do you want fries with that?
DO you want fries with that?
Do YOU want fries with that?
Do you WANT fries with that?
Do you want FRIES with that?
Do you want fries WITH that?
Do you want fries with THAT?

Re:Great

[daem0n1x]

where they'll "move to Canada" because of Obama's healthcare reform... well, it doesn't induce much hope.

I hope that's a joke. People move to a country with socialised medicine because they want to avoid Obama's boneless attempt at socialised medicine?

Re:Great

[Dast]

It was Keynes, and he indeed predict that by now, we'd all be working a lot less and have a lot more leisure time. Turns out he was wrong.

Re:Great

[Maximum Prophet]

I'll have egg on my face when the robot army builds massive floating cities.

More like space habitats, which can easily provide many times as much land area as every planet in the solar system. Land on Earth won't have much value in a century or two.

Ok, that's the start of several science fiction stories. The rich leave for the space cities, leaving the poor behind on land and ocean going super-vessels. If anyone from the proletariat demonstrates talent, they get to emigrate to the stars after paying their dues. That was sort of the back-story in "Blade Runner", but it works for any rags-to-riches yarn.

Re:Great

[daem0n1x]

Do you like the idea of donating most of your salary to feed the hungry instead of buying a bigger house a better car and spending it on your pleasure?

No, I like the idea of donating a good share of my salary to contribute to the society I live in, receiving in return when I need it. Why should there be hungry?

Re:Great

[needs2bfree]

My sarcas-o-meter just went into the red. Well done sir!

Re:Great

[SleazyRidr]

I think we all hope it's a joke. I heard on the radio that Jet Blue was offering free flights to people who said they'd leave the country if Obama was elected, I wonder how many people took them up on that.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

It was Keynes, and he indeed predict that by now, we'd all be working a lot less and have a lot more leisure time. Turns out he was wrong.

Is there anything Keynes wasn't wrong about?

Re:Great

[daem0n1x]

Well, if they want to flee to a country with a US-style healthcare system, I can recommend them a few African countries. Definitely not Canada.

Re:Great

[rundgong]

Yeah, thats a great future that is easy to envision.

Can you also see a path from the society we have today that will take us to that future?
That part is not so easy for me to see.

Bonus points if that path does not contain lots of people getting killed along the way

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no, that would mean progress. Unfortunately the more likely result of this is what can be seen going on in the US right now: People at the top making bazillions while cutting jobs, then criticizing everyone else for not working hard enough and instead complaining and trying to take a piece of their "hard-earned" stash. In the future, a Robot will be King.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he was right, on average. But the profits from the rise in productivity for decades now have gone to the wealthy, maybe the leisure time has gone there also?

Re:Great

[RabidReindeer]

If you don't own land now, go out and buy some. In the end, that's the one thing that robots can't build.*

And then what will you do with it? Build a log cabin and subsistence farm?

Re:Great

[SleazyRidr]

Aparently Canada wasn't on the list after all: http://www.jetblueelectionprotection.com/

But you don't really expect people who'd threaten to leave the country if their guy didn't get to be president to fully think their threats through, would you.

Re:Great

[ChunderDownunder]

I dunno, emigrating to an idyllic life in the Caribbean sounds lovely.

I notice the island of Cuba is missing from the list of destinations. :-)

Re:Great

[Ambvai]

It was a sweepstakes. You made the equivalent of a declaration of "If [Obama/Romney] wins, I'm moving to [Bahamas/Cancun/etc.]!" and hope that you were one of the lucky winners to go on vacation.

Re:Great

[Sentrion]

make a living anyway without having to work for it.

You just offended 49% of the Americans who voted for Romney, you insensitive clod!

Didn't you know that already 47% of Americans see themselves as victims and think they are entitled to basic necessities of life? What's going to happen when 1.5 billion Chinese start expecting a daily ration of food when they are hungry, a wheel chair when they are disabled, or a soft bed and blanket when they are sick? Even the thought of people expecting such handouts without working three full-time jobs is repulsive to almost half the population of the USA, and yet you have the gall to make such a remark as yours. Shame on you! Shame!

If anybody really wants to eat, have a place to sleep, or get medicine when they're sick, they can start their own private equity firm just like Mitt Romney did. Yet there are millions of people choosing to take the easy way out, working "fun" or "meaningful" jobs like teaching, ambulance driving, researching, park rangering, firefighting, or policing that pay much less than what they could earn in finance, sales or management. But after working most of their lives for a subsistence wage, if they cannot afford a mere $750,000.00 for a single organ transplant, cancer treatment, or chronic disease management, then what right do they have to tax the millionaires that are running the whole economy practically on their own? They made their choice and should face their own consequences.

Re:Great

[Sentrion]

If we take the founders of Facebook as an example

http://abcnewsradioonline.com/business-news/facebook-co-founder-denounces-us-citizenship.html

What does that say about the USA?

Re:Great

[tftp]

People move to a country with socialised medicine because they want to avoid Obama's boneless attempt at socialised medicine?

Canada does not require you to buy insurance. Every Canadian lawful resident is entitled to some level of healthcare. It is financed from taxes that everyone pays. If this healthcare is against your religion you don't have to use it. Canadian healthcare's dues are very low and nearly invisible on the paycheck, IIRC. You know that your contribution will not become profit of insurance companies.

That method is infinitely better than Obama's boneheaded attempt at forcing everyone to purchase an expensive service from a private company. That service violates a bunch of religious norms of a bunch of people (and even moral norms, if you are not religious at all.)

Re:Great

[Sentrion]

It's all semantics. You need to learn newspeak. Here are some excerpts from the Newspeak dictionary:

OLD:NEW

Hunger : Eager
Homelessness : Camping
Starvation : Weight Loss
Destitution : Simplicity
Shivering in the cold : Adventuring in the great outdoors
Subsisting on skewered sewer rats : urban wildlife conservation and sportsmanship
Begging for pocket change : Peer-to-Peer Fundraising

Re:Great

[lister king of smeg]

to late Dubai already built more land in the ocean

Re:Great

[Sentrion]

We like to refer to it as "extreme weight loss" with higher rates of mortality than most competitive dietary past times.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Karl Marx would agree.

Re:Great

[hackingbear]

In a world where artificial scarcity is created, one where you "must work in order to earn a living", there will be a huge unemployed and poor minority, or even majority.

That's because you haven't lived in a world where essential necessities and everything else were handed out (i.e. re-distributed). China used to be such a place; and they learned it wouldn't work. In such a society, very soon, nobody would want to work. Human beings are either too greedy to too lazy, unfortunately.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

If all the manual work is done by robots, the productivity will be awesome.

Which begs the question; who's going to design the products, who's going to program and fix the robots, who's going to distribute the products, especially since nobody has to... because productivity is so awesome.

Then of course there's all these mundane non-manufacturing jobs; plumbers, electricians, construction workers, truckers, warehouse stockers, etc, etc.

I can see a lot of manufacturing being done by robots, but finding and fixing an open or short in the power grid, fixing a watermain break or even fixing a leaky pipe behind some sheetrock in someone's home requires a flexible, human-level intelligence.

But who's going to do that, especially since nobody has to... because productivity is so awesome.

Re:Great

[HornWumpus]

Have you been near any offices lately.

I'd guess the average office drone works about 2 hours a week. The rest is 'look busy' time, not leisure time. It is a management failure, they are that clueless.

Re:Great

[Maximum Prophet]

Rent part of it for income and live on the other part. The alternative is to rent your square feet from someone else or keep moving.

Re:Great

[blind biker]

Sadly no, I am not making this up :(

Re:Great

[daem0n1x]

What have you been smoking? When were the essential necessities ever fulfilled for everyone in China?

Re:Great

[hackingbear]

Nobody said the necessities were ever fulfilled in China. Where did you learn your reading skill?

Re:Great

[daem0n1x]

a world where essential necessities and everything else were handed out (i.e. re-distributed). China used to be such a place

You wrote it yourself.

Re:Great

[hackingbear]

The stuff were handed out but not fulfilled. You need to eat 1 pound of wheat a day to feel full and not hungry, the government gave you 1 oz for next to free and nothing else. That was exactly what happened in China before opening. See the distinction?

Solution for the Chinese

[Anonymous Coward]

In light of such a system, where the few who own the means of production are capable of disenfranchising and exploiting all others, I propose an alternative economic system that the Chinese can implement, in order to prevent the exploitation of the common man by the wealthy. One where the means of production are owned by the state, which represents the collective will of the people...

Oh, wait a minute...

Re:Solution for the Chinese

[marcosdumay]

Oh, wait a minute...

What? You noticed that it can't work?

RUR

[contrarywise]

Will the new iThing be designed to be manufactured entirely by robots in Cupertino now that Foxcon is eliminating its cheap labor advantage.

Re:RUR

[WillAdams]

That _was_ Steve Jobs original vision back when he built the highly-automated (for its time) NeXT factory --- what he really wanted was a factory where sand (and other raw materials) came in one end and finished machines went out the other.

William

Re:The Clone Wars

[jhoegl]

I dont think any country can claim that they arent reckless towards intelligent life.
Except maybe Sweden.

Foxbots?

[Anonymous Coward]

Foxbots? I heard Foxconn was planning to open factories in the US and thought this news is about hiring Fox channel viewers.

Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally we can automate production, and stop forcing people to work.

Re:The Clone Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they have the strength of five gorillas?

cant wait for H265

[Anonymous Coward]

should a be a great time where the 3d modelling finally goes to look so well we no longer will need actors nor musicans
ony writers which we can get AI to do as well....
yup the golden age is coming and no one will have a job
right fucking on does anyone in capitalism think this is good? raise your hand ( BANG slices em off )

Re:cant wait for H265

[WillAdams]

I believe the short story you want is ``Manna 2.0'':

http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

Re:cant wait for H265

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he really doesn't want that story.

It's a stupid premise, the characters are wooden, and the plot takes a gigantic leap over the events during which people with any sort of influence would stop it in its tracks.

I wish I could have back the 20 minutes I spent reading that piece of shit. If I could trade, I'd watch "Two Girls One Cup" in return for unreading that story.

Re:cant wait for H265

[Anonymous Coward]

Well aren't you just a fucking bucket of joy and shit.

Re:cant wait for H265

[etash]

excellent story!

Re:The Clone Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

Intelligent life? If you had said just life, maybe...

For Foxconn, "killbots" would be a better name

[Anonymous Coward]

(Subject line says it all.)

Except there is a flaw in your logic

[pkbarbiedoll]

When all of the low-skill repetitive jobs are replaced by robots, and there is no work for the millions of displaced workers they are going to find unexpected ways to spend their forced leisure time, such as developing a newfound love of pitchforks, machetes, rope and guillotines.. and an unhealthy obsession with the "Job Creators" who created a new life of misery for them.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[kwerle]

Billions.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to worry. I'm sure they can get a copy of "Robot Repair for Dummies" for $0.99 from the App Store.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[daem0n1x]

I guess that's what happened with mechanisation of agriculture and the invention of the assembly line here in the Western countries. We live a life of misery, now. We were so much happier working 18 hour shifts in a shitty factory or plowing from dawn to dusk!

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[Maximum Prophet]

When all of the low-skill repetitive jobs are replaced by robots, and there is no work for the millions of displaced workers they are going to find unexpected ways to spend their forced leisure time, such as developing a newfound love of pitchforks, machetes, rope and guillotines.. and an unhealthy obsession with the "Job Creators" who created a new life of misery for them.

You're talking about a revolution in China. That's never happened before, has it? ***

*** (:-) for the humor impared

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[Anonymous Coward]

In the past, there have been people with warnings like yours. There have always been more jobs, and we get nicer and nicer things.

For example, now nearly anyone can afford to go get a professional massage. Because a lot of those displaced factory workers are now working as massage therapists.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[Windwraith]

Oh come on, robots aren't the cause of that unemployment. The cause of that unemployment is employers being cheap and hiring one guy to do the work of five workers, as opposed to five workers.
My line of work is not possible to a machine, and yet unemployment runs wild in the sector because only one guy gets hired instead of a team.

But I don't blame you, popular media has always depicted robots as that evil world dominators that hate us fleshbags and will pew-pew us into submission, death, or slavery. In reality the writers were just scared to have a robot take their jobs.

Also, I think China has caused more losses in factory jobs than robots, but I don't see as much hatred of the Chinese.

I am pro-robot. You guys are blaming a mere tool without feelings or malice. The malice is applied by the ones buying the tool.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry. Long before that happens, the energy prices will have gone through the roof, making manual labour again competitive. Moreover, transport will get more expensive as well, giving a competitive edge for domestic production.

Who said that peak oil only has to have negative consequences?

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course. When robots replace factory workers 100% of them wil go on to graduate college, retrain into new careers, and then wait for those jobs to be replaced by robots.

Eventually all work will be done by robots owned by the wealthy who, in your rosey future, will somehow have learned to be magnanimous humanitarians along the way.

Yeah.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[drinkypoo]

Oh come on, robots aren't the cause of that unemployment. The cause of that unemployment is employers being cheap and hiring one guy to do the work of five workers, as opposed to five workers.

Oh, is that how it works? Why can that guy do five times as much work as you can?

I am pro-robot. You guys are blaming a mere tool without feelings or malice. The malice is applied by the ones buying the tool.

The malice is applied by the ones buying the argument that we should all spend all our time working.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[Anonymous Coward]

So you mean that companies can't afford to hire more workers in order to keep up with their automated competitors?

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it has in manufacturing. The only reason they use a human army to build iPhones is so they can change stuff real fast prior to launch because robots have to be built too. And knowing society, I don't think it will focus on altruism but the few that this really benefits when no one is able to work because automation has just replaced everything. So using 1 person to do what 10,000 could do doesn't help anyone get paid except for the few that fix the machines when they break.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[Anonymous Coward]

In a competitive capitalist, free market society there is no such concept as "all of the low-skill repetitive jobs are replaced by robots".

Which is exactly why a competitive capitalist, free market society would suck.

Having all of the low-skill repetitive jobs are replaced by robots is a DESIRABLE and GOOD thing. What rational self-interested person wants to do a low-skilled repetitive job? Ideally those jobs should all be done by robots, but here you are saying that a competitive capitalist, free market society will not let such a good thing happen

That's why smart people naturally reject competitive capitalist, free market societies. People would sooner turn to a collectivist centrally planned society before a competitive capitalist, free market one.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[Windwraith]

The thing is, that guy CAN'T. That's why services are so shoddy, because they are overworking a lot of people in places where there should be a small squad taking care of business. It's like in places with huge networks and only a single sysadmin.
As I say sysadmin I can say gardener, janitor, construction worker, cleaning staff, small security, bureaucrats and so on. It's just employers wanting the same or more for less.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[Pseudonym Authority]

I seriously doubt that more than 20% of the world population is capable of sustained creative or academic endeavors, especially not self-motivated and self-directed ones. Let's just hope that this is a Rider's of the Purple Wage dystopia, and not the Eloi and Morlocks kind.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[tftp]

In the past, there have been people with warnings like yours. There have always been more jobs, and we get nicer and nicer things.

We ran out of those jobs already. Sure, there are jobs for miracle surgeons, and for mathematicians who can solve unsolvable differential equations in their sleep, and for businessmen who can take a walking disaster of a company and make it into another Intel or Apple. But the thing is... nobody qualifies to take those jobs. This is why the country has so many of its citizens on entitlements and without jobs.

You can treat China as a remotely located robotic factory, because for all intents and purposes it is. You pay a little for materials (robots are not yet free!) and you get back a cheap product.

But your own population cannot compete with those robots. It cannot manufacture anything that doesn't require creative, human intelligence. Artists are safe for the moment, but car makers are not. Steel makers are history. Few remaining machinists are old guys within reach of retirement, and they charge an arm and a leg for milling a part. The only jobs remaining are in areas where robots can't yet work - in restaurants, in massage salons (as you mention), in lawyers' offices, and a few other places. But those jobs are not creative - they do not bring the money in that you can give to robots. The number of truly creative jobs is miniscule (writers, movie makers, performers, top notch engineers.)

a lot of those displaced factory workers are now working as massage therapists.

Who is going to buy the therapy, with what money? This would be OK in a closed society, where Alice gives massage to Bob for $10 and Bob cuts Alice's hair for $10. However Alice needs to buy cream from Charlie the Robot for $2 every day, and Bob needs to buy scissors from Charlie the Robot for $2 per day. After 5 days both Alice and Bob run out of money and cannot buy anything from each other. Charlie would be willing to pay $2 per day - but only to a licensed robot tech. Neither Alice nor Bob are such. Besides, Charlie only needs three techs, and Charlie already has three. Those techs need a haircut once in a month and massage once in a month, but that income is too small for Bob and Alice to even maintain their businesses (they have to close after 5 days in this scenario.)

In essence, the society separates into two groups. One group has members who buy and sell within that group. Robot Charlie makes parts for Robot Echo, and robot Echo makes parts for robot Delta, and tech Xev maintains robots Charlie and Delta in exchange for food from the robot Foxtrot. Another group is a group of people who have nothing that the "productive" group wants. We already have such groups today, they are called ghettos. A ghetto dweller wants many things that you have; but he has nothing to offer to you in exchange (aside from your life.) In the new robotic society all humans, except a few that are directly involved in the robotic manufacturing, will be that ghetto. Robots may feed the new ghetto if they want to... or not. Fact is, those humans are useless; a truly robotic AI can logically conclude that and order their extermination. That wouldn't affect the robotic manufacturing cycle in any way.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know why you put sarcastic/ironic quote marks around Job Creators. That's quite a bit of job creation for wielders of pitchforks, machetes, rope and guillotines.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[tsotha]

If that were really the dynamic unemployment would be over 99% because of all the farmers and manual laborers that got laid off in the 20th century.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[TheSync]

The cause of that unemployment is employers being cheap and hiring one guy to do the work of five workers, as opposed to five workers.

The cause of unemployment is that the productive benefits of hiring someone is less than the cost of hiring them.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[Anonymous Coward]

I kept thinking about a reply, but the I got it, it's sarcasm right? nobody could be insane enough to actually believe that!

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what prisons are for. Surplus population and all that.

Notably, Norbert Wiener – the father of cybernetics and thereby factory automation – spent the latter years of his life railing against automation precisely because he knew exactly what it would do to society and overall levels of inequity. He was, of course, correct. And it will, of course, only get worse and worse and worse...

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[marcosdumay]

Long before that happens, the energy prices will have gone through the roof, making manual labour again competitive.

Humans are hightly inneficient converters of energy into labor. Robots can with with much less energy.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[Anonymous Coward]

That is fear mongering that appeals to emotion rather than reason.

Economic historians have pointed out this fear is never realized in history and economists have shown this does not cause unemployment. For historical evidence see Thomas DiLorenzo or even more a priori thinkers like Mises. They and others give ample evidence that every time some new invention(be it the printing press, automobile, computer or whatever) promises to increase our productivity, conservative fear mongers seek to scare us into believing unemployment will permanently be increased by such tools that make less productive methods obsolete. The actual result in every improvement in the means of production is that more and better work opens up. The 90% of the population and up that used to all be engaged in agriculture in the west did not simply starve in uselessness as we have improved productivity such that now only 3% is involved in farming, mainly running remote satellite controlled combine harvesters and other machines. This counter example alone is sufficient to disprove your fear.

For apodictic reasoning, one simply has to understand and have some empathy for other fellow human beings. Understand that we have unlimited wants(meaning, we are constantly looking for better satisfaction). More technically, we act purposely as a means of achieving the end of removing some unease in our lives. When investment into infrastructure and tools multiply the productivity of our base labor, we don't simply stop with the improvement and call it a day. We put that improvement to use. The labor that is freed up and the excess wealth resulting from increased production permits us to move on to solving less immediate desires.

So when high and sustained unemployment(or even underemployment) happens, where does it come from and why does it get blamed on innovation and peaceful creation? When there are plenty of willing workers and yet all we find are more industries automating their work, what makes people less profitable in any new or existing occupation? The obvious answer is violence; it is the force that threatens harm should two parties voluntarily negotiate a trade containing terms that do not comply with arbitrary rules from a third party. It is a timeless consequence of control. It happened in the great depression when the USG threatened theft and kidnapping to those who wished to offer labor for wages above or below the mandated threshold, thus keeping unemployment high as people were severely hampered from readjusting to the changing economic conditions caused by the severe retraction of the money supply by the federal reserve(about 1/3 of the fiduciary media was suddenly withdrawn if I remember right). It happens when minimum wage laws make marginally productive people unemployable and unable to gain skills to become more productive. It happens when kids can't find a job until after college, but are too unproven in the work place to be hired in a field they trained for. It happens when the blunt federal welfare programs makes it silly to seek jobs just above the threshold of eligibility when a person could get more or nearly the same income by working less. It happens when those jobs just above that threshold become bid up, phased out or automated as a result. It happens when those not looking for handouts try to bridge that pay level gap but find it increasingly difficult.

In short, peace does not destroy the world; it builds us up. Only violence can do that.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[pkbarbiedoll]

Wish I could mod this up.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[GNious]

Flaw: The employer who cuts down on staffing below tenable levels is not (exclusively) doing so because he wants to - he is (usually) forced to, to meet competitors' price-levels after they have reduced their costs through various means.

The real a**holes are the general public, who wants stuff cheaply, and don't care if 1 person has to do the work of 5 to meet that price, quality of product and the life of the worker be damned.

Vote with your wallet, and convince a couple of billion others to do the same: buy products produced locally by humans under proper conditions.

Disclaimer: I, too, tend to buy cheap crap.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[shutdown -p now]

When all of the low-skill repetitive jobs are replaced by robots, and there is no work for the millions of displaced workers they are going to find unexpected ways to spend their forced leisure time, such as developing a newfound love of pitchforks, machetes, rope and guillotines.. and an unhealthy obsession with the "Job Creators" who created a new life of misery for them.

Only if the Job Creators will emphatically refuse to share the yields that they gain from their 100% robotic factories with those unemployed masses.

Which they probably will, in whichever country rolls this out first on a large scale. And then, indeed, we'll see pitchforks and guillotines, and other countries will learn their lesson and try to guide the economic transition smoother. Yet others will go Luddite and refuse to move on (and become marginalized). So, more or less like what happened back in 1917.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[shutdown -p now]

We don't need to. If you have robots that can work to provide for the basic needs of everyone, you might as well just roll out universal basic income guarantee worldwide.

And, yeah, that's communism, literally so. Nothing bad about that.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[strikethree]

Don't worry. America is perfecting the solution to that. They/we will all be in prisons by the time it gets that far. Jaywalking will be a felony with a minimum 5 year prison sentence. Enjoy. :)

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[drinkypoo]

We don't need to. If you have robots that can work to provide for the basic needs of everyone, you might as well just roll out universal basic income guarantee worldwide.

I agree with you, but the people buying the laws do not.

The people in charge have no qualms about killing us off to bring unemployment down. They have no intention of feeding potential rioters.

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[mu51c10rd]

plowing from dawn to dusk!

Well, that would have solved the obesity problem...

Re:Except there is a flaw in your logic

[entrigant]

http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html

Many great minds have pondered the question of what to do when and if technology brings society to a point that we no longer need all citizens working to sustain a high standard of living for all. Many more think we're already there. That essay is a good starting point.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[Sentrion]

The dynamic is cyclical, or rather, spiral. The most aggressive farmers who invested more in machinery and expanded their farms, buying out their neighbors, and so forth. In the short term there was suffering among the unemployed and underemployed. But eventually those farmers who succeeded with machinery and expansion had more disposable income and wanted to spend some of it. This lead to a demand for better goods and new luxury items. Automation in factories had similar up-and-down spiral effects, with short term periods of serious disruption to worker's standard of living, but in the long term those companies which were successful had wealthy owners and well paid managers who wanted to spend money on new and nicer things. Flash forward to today where even some of the poorest households have TVs, stereo systems, internet, and so on.

So, in the past, whenever laborers were squeezed out of a market they were able to adapt and in some cases thrive by selling basically "non-essential" goods and services to those who were successful in the original market. The problem is there is no guarantee that this sort of pattern can continue indefinitely. When the ultra-wealthy decide that they're machines can produce for them everything they need and they have no incentive of paying a new labor force for better or new products and services, then we (those of us in the non-wealthy category) are screwed. It's also worth noting that the middle of the 20th century saw the rise of the middle class, which was for a while almost self-sustaining. It's much easier to find a market to serve people who are in the same income range as you or just a little higher and when that group is 70-80% of the population. When the working masses have to compete for the attention of the top 1% then the system is just not going to be quite as self-sustaining.

Unfortunately there are already millions of millionaires and the new emerging economy is a top tier economy of private companies owned by one-percenters providing services for one-percenters. It's as if our world economy is on the verge of returning to a form of medieval feudalism.

Re:Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[tsotha]

People have been making these arguments since the early 19th century. While I agree there's no guarantee the pattern can continue indefinitely, I don't see any reason to believe things are changing for the worse. Remember unemployment in the US was below 5% until 2009, and there haven't been huge gains in robot productivity over the last few years.

I Had Sex with a Robot!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mom: Billy, do you want to walk your dog?
Billy: No thanks, mom. I'd rather have sex with my Foxbot.

Dad: Billy, do you want to get a paper route and earn some extra cash?
Billy: No thanks, dad. I'd rather have sex with my Foxbot.

Mavis: Billy, do you want to come over tonight? We can have sex together.
Billy: Gee, Mavis, your house is across the street. That's an awfully long way to go for having sex.

Do not have sex with a robot! Before you know it, it will be the end of the human civilization.

Re:I Had Sex with a Robot!

[Anonymous Coward]

Natural selection. Only those who truly prefer humans will breed.

Re:I Had Sex with a Robot!

[Anonymous Coward]

This public service announcement has been brought to you by Futurama.

Will this army of robots be "Three Laws Safe"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Will Smith didn't seem to be having a lot of fun taking out the first army, I don't know if he could do it again.

Oddly fitting

[Sperbels]

All this has happened before, and all this will happen again

how long

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how long until we hear about the first robot jumping to its death out of a window.

Re:how long

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they'll just complain about the pain in all their diodes on the left side ...

Re:The Clone Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

Any country reckless towards life is reckless towards intelligent life, since the latter is a subset of the former. So if what he said were valid for "life" it'd be valid for "intelligent life" as well.

UGLY!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never seen a robot uglier than that. Are they all blinds?

Suit their bloody factories, though.

I can't wait

[wbr1]

I cannot wait for an iPhone built by I,robot.

Re:I can't wait

[i kan reed]

iRobot doesn't make industrial robots. They make military and domestic robots.

The worker will soon be replaced by technology.

[concealment]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57548757-93/here-come-the-humanoids-there-go-u.s-jobs/

As robots become more available, and they can take on the jobs that ordinary workers do, look for employers to replace employees with robots wherever they can.

Not only are costs lower, with wages versus maintenance, but there's no chance of strikes, labor disruptions, lawsuits, etc.

What will we do when there are no "worker" jobs and everyone has to be a web developer?

Re:The worker will soon be replaced by technology.

[dmacleod808]

Myspace - where everyone has to be a web developer. I gouged my eyes out, the have only recently grown back.

Re:The worker will soon be replaced by technology.

[concealment]

I think that's why Facebook got popular; to post 500 animated GIFs of sparkle-bunnies dancing the macarena, you have to post them one at a time as status updates.

Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[zarlino]

When most repetitive work is done by machines and productivity goes sky-high, unemployment will not rise at all. Society will just focus on other tasks that were previously not achievable. Automation began 100 years ago and it hasn't caused mass unemployment.

Except there is a flaw in YOUR logic

[drinkypoo]

You're having problems counting the unemployed around the world, aren't you? We're already there and we haven't found things for those people to do.

What of their economy?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Chinese economy has been built on unlimited cheap industrial labor producing products that could be competitively exported - now what? A billion people w/o jobs? Those people have now become a liability not an asset.

Historically, technology development has provided new-industry jobs to absorb such technology-induced job losses - at least when technological development was sufficiently rapid. Sure hope the Chinese allocate sufficient resources to technology development sectors. Sure am glad the US is allocating sufficient resources to technology development instead of depending on mergers and buy-outs floating stock recapitalization to provide wealth and letting R&D tank. Just think what would happen to the US if, say, mathematicians were employed optimizing nanosecond stock trading instead of technology development.

oblig

[wbr1]

iWelcome our iPad building iRobot iOverlords.

Re:more like brake down from cheaping out on upkee

[dmacleod808]

so you are saying that they will have to "put on the brakes" due to going cheap on upkeep? speeling my yeiung padwein, speeling.

Player Piano

[Anonymous Coward]

Read Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.'s novel by that name. All the boring, hazardous, repetitive jobs are done by robots. Only engineers (and probably politicians) have jobs. Everything else is handled by computers, including deciding how much money you get, where you live, and what you buy, so as to make the economy work best.

Re:more like brake down from cheaping out on upkee

[oPless]

I think you mean "break down".

Please hand in your geek card and make your way to the euthanization centre.

Solent Green Is People!

who builds the robots?

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't this the beginning of all bad scifi movies?

Foxconn is typical of the Chinese

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why you can't trust the Chinese: They don't value human life much at all, as Foxconn's actions demonstrate. Putting 1,000,000 people out of work is something I consider to be a crime against humanity, and they are to be reviled for doing it.

Re:Foxconn is typical of the Chinese

[Anonymous Coward]

Walmart hires a bunch of people in your country too, and yet you hate Walmart for giving hiring people and giving them a living wage.

Re:Foxconn is typical of the Chinese

[Anonymous Coward]

No, for hiring them below a living wage. For making the net jobs less. For running mom and pop stores out of business.

Re:Foxconn is typical of the Chinese

[Russ1642]

Having worked at a few Mom and Pop stores in my life I have no sympathy for them getting run out of business. The vast majority of them have zero business sense. I've heard people go on and on about supporting some local small businesses but they generally have terrible customer service and I won't go back.

A desire for slavery?

[dpilot]

Doesn't this seem that we still have this desire for slavery?

Once upon a time, we out-and-out had slaves.
Then we freed them, sort of, and rehired them at almost-subsistence wages as sharecroppers.
Then we moved to off-shore workers, currently in a practically nonexistent standard of living, happy to have any sort of job.
Around the same time we also started in with illegal immigrants, again happy to have any sort of job, and more importantly, no ability to complain.
(Sometimes I think there's a movement afoot to push US workers into that last group - happy to have any sort of job, no ability to complain. That certainly seems to be the direction we've been headed, even without any sort of conspiracy.)

So aren't robots simply the next step in that kind of progression?

With this in mind, the real question becomes, how smart does the robot have to become before we achieve true artificial intelligence, and it really is a slave, at which point the only ethical thing to do is to free it.

I know my earlier mumblings were US centric, and these robots are in China. But I don't think the US is unique in this kind of progression, and given the fact that we've moved our robot-capable workload offshore, that makes it logical that this kind of thing would be done offshore first.

Re:A desire for slavery?

[twistedsymphony]

"robots" aren't smart, by definition they simply perform per-programmed repetitive tasks; they're just a piece of hardware following some software instructions. You're thinking of an "automaton" which is a self-operating machine. When most people think "robot" they're actually thinking of the stereotypical sci-fi Android, which is an automaton with human characteristics. When manufacturers say robot they mean... robot, not android, not automaton... robot

Robots have been used in manufacturing for years, both in the US and abroad. In general though manufacturing moved off-shore because the human labor was so cheap it was even more cost effective than buying and maintaining robots domestically. If China is moving towards robots it only means that their human labor force is no longer cost effective, and will likely mean that a lot more manufacturing will move back to being domestic (the cost of running a robot locally is hardly different than the cost of running a robot off-shore). About the only reason to continue manufacturing in China at that point would be the proximity to the production of other components (which will likely become less of an issue over time) and availability of raw materials (which varies from industry to industry, country to country).

Re:A desire for slavery?

[DaemonDan]

Hopefully when robots do gain enough self-awareness to realize the nature of their servitude they will employ the classic means of improving their working situation: unions and picketing. Those work, right?

Re:A desire for slavery?

[dpilot]

I would add "today" somewhere in your first sentence. I'm sure that at some point there will be a growing desire for a "learning robot" that doesn't need all of that pesky detailed programming. So very likely robots will "evolve" to become automatons, though most likely non-anthropomorphic. (At some point it wouldn't even surprise me to see a decidedly non-human automaton sporting a face somewhere, for the comfort of the humans. Or how about a red hemisphere in a black rectangular panel?)

Regardless of the shape, I'm sure our wants will drive our robots toward automatons, whereupon we're on the slippery slope - assuming we find some way to stay on Moore's Law.

Re:A desire for slavery?

[Anonymous Coward]

With this in mind, the real question becomes, how smart does the robot have to become before we achieve true artificial intelligence, and it really is a slave, at which point the only ethical thing to do is to free it.

Call me stupid, but maybe we could avoid this problem by not giving sentience to factory machinary. Or tears are a required component of iPhones?

Re:A desire for slavery?

[dpilot]

We certainly could. But there would be that desire to have the robots program themselves, if only to save the cost of paying robot programmers. We've been slave-owners in the past, and I suspect that some would see no ethical dilemna in A.I. slaves.

Re:A desire for slavery?

[tftp]

When most people think "robot" they're actually thinking of the stereotypical sci-fi Android, which is an automaton with human characteristics.

This is equivalent to a primitive self-operating machine plus the operator, a tech who programs the machine.

This means that our cars are already assembled by humanoid robots, for all practical purposes. One tech for ten robots is enough. The rest of the population of Detroit is unemployed. What would a simple worker do in the modern world? Learn C# and DirectX? Objective C? Triple Ha. One out of a thousand, maybe. Those guys were workers and not programmers for a reason, not just because they loved to do repetitive work and suffer from back pain.

will likely mean that a lot more manufacturing will move back to being domestic (the cost of running a robot locally is hardly different than the cost of running a robot off-shore).

The IRS would like to have a word with you.

The primary reason to continue manufacturing offshore is to be able to escape the US taxation system that is, I think, unique on this planet in taxing foreign income. On top of that, the USA is the home of NIMBY, CARB, OSHA and their friends. The only connection to the USA you want to have is through the bank where you receive money for your foreign-made products. The political system of the USA is also unstable, dangerously tilting toward "rob the rich" mentality of the crowd, with the President fully approving that message. The USA is in its post-capitalist phase. There are no advantages in opening a factory in the USA, and plenty of disadvantages.

Re:A desire for slavery?

[marcosdumay]

Maybe I'm a radical, or something, but if I were to buy a sentient AI for a factory, I'd choose one that wanted to work on a factory above anything else.

Thus, if I were to design an AI for selling for a facctory, I'd design one that wanted to work on a factory above all else.

And if I were to design an AI that would create an AI for selling for a factory...

Re:A desire for slavery?

[dpilot]

Kind of like engineering an animal for providing meat that wants to be eaten. (Restaurant at the End of the Universe)

Re:A desire for slavery?

[TBBle]

"The fact is, that civilisation requires slaves. The Greeks were quite right there. Unless there are slaves to do the ugly, horrible, uninteresting work, culture and contemplation become almost impossible. Human slavery is wrong, insecure, and demoralizing. On mechanical slavery, on the slavery of the machine, the future of the world depends." -- Oscar Wilde, "The Soul of Man under Socialism" (as per http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Oscar_Wilde)

Re:A desire for slavery?

[dpilot]

IMHO, the issue is whether the machines are sentient. If they're not, then they can't be slaves. But I think it a necessary ethical step to insure that they stay below some line. I know we're not even close to that line yet, but at some point it should become ethically necessary to figure out what that line is, and how to keep machines comfortably below it.

But it makes you wonder, what would a sentient machine think of such an arrangement. Harry Harrison wrote a book, "Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers," which was mostly satire, but in one of his jokes was a real question. There was a planet with 2 species significant to the story line. The "Ormloo" looked like us, but were about as smart as cows. The other species, name forgotten, looked like cows but were as smart as us. They enjoyed their Ormloo-burgers. What do we think of that?

changing the outsourcing equation

[MrTester]

Unless Im missing something, the reason so many of our electronics are made in China is the cheap labor.
Presumably the Chinese wouldnt be replacing their labor force with robots if they werent cheaper yet.

So why arent these robotic assembly lines popping up in the US? Tax laws? Environmental laws? Inertia?

Re:changing the outsourcing equation

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless Im missing something, the reason so many of our electronics are made in China is the cheap labor.
Presumably the Chinese wouldnt be replacing their labor force with robots if they werent cheaper yet.

So why arent these robotic assembly lines popping up in the US? Tax laws? Environmental laws? Inertia?

that is a good question... I surely want to hear some responses to this..

I'm assuming its because the republican right wants to to go back to the "old ways" where a man would work the land 12 hours a day. The idea is that when someone is bored, they cause trouble - so we need something for them to do.

Well all jokes aside - I think its because the amount of effort it would take to build such robots might not be too attractive in the corporate eye when China already has those robots in place?

Re:changing the outsourcing equation

[jon3k]

Maybe because the labor to build and service the robots is still so much cheaper in China? I don't know, just one of many possible reasons. Great question, though.

Re:changing the outsourcing equation

[Anonymous Coward]

i would also want to know opinions about this...

I think that it may not be attractive to corporations to produce such robots because of cost, liability , etc when they are already built and tested in China.

Re:changing the outsourcing equation

[twistedsymphony]

They do exist in the US, most US manufacturing is done by robots. The only reason we have things made in China is because Chinese labor is still cheaper than US robots. 10,000 laborers being replaced by one Chinese manufacturer is hardly enough to dramatically shift costs, but it is a sign of things to come. If the trend continues we could see thing shifting back within 5-10 years.

Even still there are lots of other costs involved that still benefit China:

• - Less strict environmental laws meaning they can save by polluting
• - Most of the component parts that make up a widget are also made in china so they can save by using "Just In Time" manufacturing.
• - A lot of the raw materials used are also mined in China, or at least have the distribution infrastructure to support Chinese manufacturing.
• - Even with robots you still need human workers to monitor and maintain the robots, and that labor is still cheaper in China.

I have no doubt that if this trend continues we'll see things start to shift back, but it's not going to happen overnight.

Re:changing the outsourcing equation

[Anonymous Coward]

I think these days it's because with such a massive labor force changes can be made to a product very near to it's release date. Now Fox-Conn wants to build automated factories here in the US to tighten this margin even more.

Re:changing the outsourcing equation

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they are also in China for the complete lack of environmental laws.

Re:changing the outsourcing equation

[strikethree]

Cheap labor is but one aspect of it. Do you have any idea how much pollution is created in the manufacture of hi-tech parts? IIRC, for chip manufacture, arsenic and cyanide are necessary and a real bitch to dispose of... unless you do not mind poisoning your slaves ^H^H^H^H^H^H erm, citizens.

Re:changing the outsourcing equation

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have any idea how much pollution is continually produced by the half dozen or so humans each robot would replace? Just consider all the added smog, filth, and even carbon dioxide as they commute back and forth, heat their homes, fly somewhere for the occasional vacation, eat meat...plus all the arsenic and cyanide from their electronic toys...

Humans, you can keep 'em.

- T

Robots can't be consumers!

[Anonymous Coward]

The one thing that robots can't (and never will) do is to buy the products they produce. The economy will collapse if there is nobody to buy the products produced. The rich might be able to buy many things but their buying will never support the economy. Hell, the collapse is beginning to happen right now.

Re:Robots can't be consumers!

[HornWumpus]

What if the robot is making robot grease and a maintenance scheduler built in?

Manna by Marshall Brain

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone should read the short story about this topic.

http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

Greater story with 2 perspectives on the "robot end".

Re:The Clone Wars

[superdave80]

The Clone Wars are Clones vs. Robots. Duh.

Where did I heard that before...

[jbssm]

Sure, just like they have told our ancestors in the beginning of the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution.

People will have a comfortable life with plenty of time to do creative work not when we have machines working for us, but only if there is a fair distribution of wealth.

Re:Where did I heard that before...

[daem0n1x]

Sure, just like they have told our ancestors in the beginning of the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution.

I'm pretty sure nobody told our ancestors that. But we certainly live a lot better now.

People will have a comfortable life with plenty of time to do creative work not when we have machines working for us, but only if there is a fair distribution of wealth.

Machines working for us improves productivity. If you distribute the productivity gains fairly, then indeed "people will have a comfortable life with plenty of time to do creative work". Otherwise, a few will life a life of luxury while most live in a Mad Max style world. However, I think the latter is not sustainable. And I hope so...

Re:Where did I heard that before...

[DanielRavenNest]

If you distribute the productivity gains fairly, ... Otherwise, a few will life a life of luxury while most live in a Mad Max style world.

What prevents individuals from designing and building open-source robots and using them for their own productivity? I can imagine a garden bot that grows food, and a garage bot that builds furniture, and a community "production center" that works like a credit union - many members contributing smaller amounts to buy the more expensive items, and can then borrow them as needed, or use them in place to produce stuff they can't make at home.

Re:Where did I heard that before...

[TheEyes]

If you distribute the productivity gains fairly, ... Otherwise, a few will life a life of luxury while most live in a Mad Max style world.

What prevents individuals from designing and building open-source robots and using them for their own productivity? I can imagine a garden bot that grows food, and a garage bot that builds furniture, and a community "production center" that works like a credit union - many members contributing smaller amounts to buy the more expensive items, and can then borrow them as needed, or use them in place to produce stuff they can't make at home.

Patents and copyrights. You can't build an open-source smartphone today because smartphones are covered by thousands of patents; you won't be able to build a robot in the future because they will likewise be covered by thousands of patents. Those poor fake paper-people have to maintain their profits, after all.

Re:Where did I heard that before...

[tftp]

People will have a comfortable life with plenty of time to do creative work not when we have machines working for us, but only if there is a fair distribution of wealth.

The only snag here is the endless wars over the exact meaning of the word "fair."

"Foxbots", people!

[srussia]

100+ comments and no "Fembot" jokes (lame or otherwise)!

Is this the real Slashdot or some parallel universe version?

Get them while they last

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/eb04/

Not a blatent slashvertisment, it was the first hit on Goolge for the shirt.

Re:more like brake down from cheaping out on upkee

[mcgrew]

Give the guy a "brake," he's only five years old!

Details...

[MaWeiTao]

I'd like to point out that Foxconn is not Chinese, it's Taiwanese. Their Chinese name is Hon Hai Precision Industry Co., Ltd., but like most Taiwanese they operate under a Westernized, Foxconn, name for the sake of international business. They have factories in Eastern Europe, South America and elsewhere in Asia other than China.

They do have a heavy presence in China for obvious reasons. It's close to their home base in Taiwan, but much cheaper for manufacturing and there's no language barrier. That said, there are short-comings to a Taiwanese company doing business in China. Foxconn's business practices are standard amongst Chinese companies. In fact, conditions and pay are almost always better at foreign companies, which is why Chinese workers tend to flock to them.

Not that things are ideal by any stretch of the imagination. Even in a corporate environment management tends to treat office workers like crap, by American standards. But the same could be said about companies all over Asia.

I think the important thing here is that while China is normally very quick to quash protests they've been surprisingly lax with what's happened at Foxconn. Given that Foxconn manufactures a significant percentage of the world's electronics I'd expect the reports of oppressive conditions to be more widespread. Either clients have more say in the manufacturing process than we realize, which doesn't speak well for Apple, or the Chinese government is taking advantage of this situation. We've got a Taiwanese company manufacturing products for one of the most desirable pieces of consumer electronics in the world. Given China's own economic problems, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Now, the problem here is that I would have expected that one of the fundamental reasons for outsourcing manufacturing costs is reduced labor costs. If workers are going to be replaced by robots that benefit evaporates. Do the cost savings elsewhere continue to outweigh inflation, a long supply chain and increasingly expensive shipping costs? I suppose they may for now, but I don't expect that to continue, which is probably why Foxconn has operations in South America. I expect we're going to see a lot more of our electronics coming from Mexico or Brazil.

Re:Details...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to point out that Foxconn is not Chinese, it's Taiwanese.

Same thing.

Re:Details...

[Anonymous Coward]

The "Republic of China" would like to have a word with you.

Oblig. Futurama

[Dachannien]

Bender: You humans are so scared of a little robot competition you won't even let us on the field.
Fry: What are you talking about? There's all kinds of robots down there.
Bender: Yeah, doing crap work! They're bat boys, ball polishers, sprinkler systems. But how many robot managers are there?
Fry: Eleven?
Bender: Zero! (He throws his bottle on the floor and it breaks. A small robot comes out and cleans it up.) And what a surprise! Look who's scraping up the filth! Is it a human child? I wish!

Obviously

[pkbarbiedoll]

Since they are the lazy, parasitic 47%, their input and needs do not count.

Re:Obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen!

The revolution comes...

[tekrat]

When a robot replaces an MBA. Right now, robots are only useful at the lowest rung of business -- the factory floor worker.

But when robots finally get into management, that's when you'll hear the screaming as thousands of coddled, bonused, outsourcers finally get what's coming to them...

Like, notice the housing crisis wasn't a crisis until it started to affect boomers and upper middle class? For 2 years before the crisis, lower middle class and poor were getting "underwater" in their mortgages, but it wasn't widely reported.

Re:The revolution comes...

[Anonymous Coward]

When a robot replaces an MBA. Right now, robots are only useful at the lowest rung of business -- the factory floor worker.

the main problem with this is that the factory floor worker WAS useful, and thus could be replaced.
MBAs don't actually do anything so there is no need to replace them.

Yay For Cap'n Ludd

[Anonymous Coward]

death to machines! they thread on our future and stamp on our dreams!

Re:more like brake down from cheaping out on upkee

[Anonymous Coward]

What would he do with the heavy metal pedal?

Re:more like brake down from cheaping out on upkee

[Patch86]

Solent Green Is People!

Soylent Green. The Solent is a waterway in England.

Maybe you should let me hold your geek card for a little while, and...um...escort our friend AC to the euthanization centre?

Re:The Clone Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

Same job, minus one potential casualty. Yeah, sounds like reckless disregard for life...

Also, congrats on two, totally off-topic, politically charged comments in the first four.

Re:The Clone Wars

[octothorpe99]

Wow.. So you're saying, if every A is B and every B is C, then.... every C is A? What logic school did you go to?

Security of that equipment

[sethstorm]

Given that there's some concern that industrial control equipment already has some issues (see: things like Stuxnet happening) this is just asking for things to go wrong - horribly.

Somehow I would have as about as much sympathy for Foxconn(and other like-minded Chinese companies) as Iran should they have such befall them - since they're both working against the US.

Faulty evaluation that breaks any bullshit meter.

[sethstorm]

I also believe that there would be some that would make an equally faulty evaluation of the South and slavery.

The slaves might have been treated well, but they had no meaningful freedom, much like the Foxconn workers. In addition, both the South and Foxconn used the government to put down any attempts to maintain meaningful freedom.

Apple doesn't care about robots.

[bdashrad]

Robot suicide rates reach all time high - is Apple to blame?

The US Government has that covered w/ GITMO

[sethstorm]

JetBlue can't do it, but if you dont mind flying in an unmarked plane and with questionable status of citizenship afterward - the US Government will be more than happy to fly you over.

The problem with automation, and robotics is...

[Timmy D Programmer]

China has no advantage, robotics is likely to even the labor cost playing field a little bit at a time, and eventually it won't be worth the labor savings to have your products made halfway around the world by somebody who will ultimately steal your Intellectual Property and compete with you later.

Re:The problem with automation, and robotics is...

[rwise2112]

You may want to read this.
It explains a whole lot, and labor rates are far from the main reason those jobs left the US.

Are We Nuts?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone here explain to me why Apple can't just build a robot-driven factory here to build their krap? Are we nuts?

Re:Are We Nuts?

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

Because that would require Apple to spend money and Apple only likes to make money.

Re:more like brake down from cheaping out on upkee

[disambiguated]

They already thought of that. They're building another army or robots to handle maintenance of these ones.

Parable on structural unemployment & basic inc

[Paul Fernhout]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p14bAe6AzhA

The Richest Man in the World: A parable about robotics, abundance, technological change, unemployment, happiness, and a basic income.

The knol mentioned in the video has been moved here because Google Knol is shutting down: http://www.pdfernhout.net/beyond-a-jobless-recovery-knol.html

That parable and video was directly inspired by this:
"Structural Unemployment: The Economists Just Don't Get It"
http://econfuture.wordpress.com/2010/08/04/structural-unemployment-the-economists-just-dont-get-it/#comment-254

20 years later ...

[Taco Cowboy]

In year 2012 as I type this message, whenever people talk about joblessness, they blame China for stealing their jobs.

I foresee this scenario to be changed somewhat in the year 2032 ...

By then, when people (and I mean, human being) complain about joblessness, they will blame the bots which have taken over almost every kind of manual jobs in the manufacturing sector, as well as some from the service sector.
 

Re:20 years later ...

[KhabaLox]

In year 2012 as I type this message, whenever people talk about joblessness, they blame China for stealing their jobs.

I foresee this scenario to be changed somewhat in the year 2032 ...

This is very worrying. Just as we've seen 1st World manufacturers replace their labor with automation and cheaper offshore labor, now we see that cheaper, off shore labor being replaced by automation. What does a world with an Chinese structural unemployment rate of 10% look like? It's hard to suss out, but it's possible that we will see an even larger income inequality, with a permanent underclass.

Re:20 years later ...

[Cytotoxic]

The 80's called, they want their "robots are stealing our jobs" meme back.

FOXCON replacing 1mill with some KV NEET Robots?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I "Feel" some good-Good-GOOD!... Good Vibrations!

I'll be on 4Chon(.net) R9K1 all week, thanks.

Why robots in China instead of robots in the west?

[Anonymous Coward]

If robots are used anyway then what's the point of outsourcing to China?

think of the children!

[Anonymous Coward]

i cant someone missed this.

A.O. Smith

[YaddaMinski]

In 1919 A.O. Smith fired up its automated car frame machine. The union shut it down then. What will happen in China? Either the Communists will Foxconn out or another civil war.

digital ore for real juse

[Anonymous Coward]

just like the terracotta army???

Re:The Clone Wars

[Marxist Hacker 42]

What the other anonymous poster said; the Drone Wars only show a disregard for certain groups of intelligent life, while preserving the lives of our soldiers.

And last I saw, takes about an hour in the factory to assemble a drone, so where are you getting your 18 months from? My 20 years was the time needed for the clone to grow up and be trained.

Re:more like brake down from cheaping out on upkee

[oPless]

Well spotted my, erm, ironic misspelling. :p