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Young Students Hiding Academic Talent To Avoid Bullying

jones_supa writes "The recent anti-bullying survey conducted by ABA brings up some interesting findings. According to it, more than 90% of the 1,000 11-16 year-olds surveyed said they had been bullied or seen someone bullied for being too intelligent or talented. Almost half of children and young people (49.5%) have played down a talent for fear of being bullied, rising to 53% among girls. One in 10 (12%) said they had played down their ability in science and almost one in five girls (18.8%) and more than one in 10 boys (11.4%) are deliberately underachieving in maths – to evade bullying. Worryingly, this means our children and young people are shying away from academic achievement for fear of victimization."

684 comments

  1. So Sad by fsck1nhippies · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That people feel they need to hide their abilities because they would do better than others.

    1. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Some people don't mind a high bar and enjoy the competition. Some people may not like the competition but are civilized enough to realize that's life. Then there's people like you.

    2. Re:So Sad by Pathogen+David · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So since people can't accept that there are people smarter than them, the smart people should be punished? That is extremely stupid, the school system in America is already holding back kids who excel as it is.

    3. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the further consequence is that someone who is both smart and strong will beat the shit out of the dumbasses who think violence makes them smarter.

    4. Re:So Sad by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The reason they have to hide their abilities is that they set the bar too high and make everyone else look like dumbasses. Of course you are going to beat the shit out of them. They are making life more difficult for us normal people. There are consequences for that.

      In that case, authorities ought to do the usual thing - make it an aggravating circumstance, just like with racially motivated crimes.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    5. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These number are pretty specific. Sounds to me like a few statisticians are begging fora wedgie.

    6. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oooo...look, another anti-social running around, claiming "You and I are a lot alike!"

    7. Re:So Sad by pelirojatica · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sad, true.

      As a shy person I might have gone this route, but no amount of bullying would have been worse than my parents' reactions to a low grade.

      As my father once said "what the hell is this B doing on your report card?!"

    8. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If YOU care about the well-being of YOUR smart kid, don't rely on the authorities. Take them out of public school and put them in environments where their talents will be rewarded and encouraged. Socialize them by different means than public school.

      It isn't cheap or convienent, but the alternative (public school) is guaranteed to fail on this front.

    9. Re:So Sad by rockout · · Score: 0

      I would've thought the comment you were responding to was an obvious troll - actually, it was so obvious that it almost bypasses troll and nearly qualifies as satire. C'mon, wake up.

      --
      I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
    10. Re:So Sad by dmbasso · · Score: 1

      Sure, because of this highly praised competitive society. If instead of competing to see who's best they would collaborate to achieve something, people who's able to contribute more would probably be seen in a more positive way.

      --
      `echo $[0x853204FA81]|tr 0-9 ionbsdeaml`@gmail.com
    11. Re:So Sad by fsck1nhippies · · Score: 1

      I definitely think they have a responsibility to help others, but I would not go so far as to say that It should be done to prevent being looked down on. Why doesn't the football star go play catch with the geek who spent all day reading about geometry? I agree with you, but I think it needs to be done in all aspects of life that is what will advance us all.

    12. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Just exactly how many professional adults have to hide their abilities and intelligence? I bet it's the same percentage cited in the article. Bullying just doesn't happen to the intelligent in grade school, but throughout their life and in the workplace.

    13. Re:So Sad by YodasEvilTwin · · Score: 1

      Poe's Law.

    14. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry.. half of them probably weren't talented in the first place:

      Illusory Superiority

    15. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disregard the argument with myself in this thread, I suck cocks.

    16. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You nailed it. The schools actually support this behaviour. Now you think I'm nuts, right?

      Consider if the child being bullied defends himself. Both children are suspended. This is
      real policy. My personal take is that school administrators are too lazy to sort things out,
      but that's what a zero-tolerance BS policy does.

    17. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      This!

      I was never bullied by other kids because I was smart. I was bullied because I was awkward, poorly socialized, and I was bad at sports. I was bullied because I was bad at certain skills.
      I was in the gifted and AP classes, and I always scored in the high 90% in any standardized tests I took. The other kids were more apt to ask me if they could cheat off me, then make fun of me for being smarter then them.

      I learned in high school that it made my life easier if I let them cheat off me. I was invited to parties, the snide comments and laughs stopped, and I was actually able to learn how to socialize some. 10th grade on was cake compared to the early years.

      Hell, even after I got in the military the same situation presented itself. I was praised and looked up to because I was good at certain things like working the radio and other computer equipment. I was "bullied" for not being as fast as others during the runs. (Note: Bullied isn't the right term here, but we are going to run with it for simplicity's sake.)

      Hell, I don't even remember the other kids being bullied for being smart. There were a large number of gifted students that fell squarely into the prep/jock category as well.

    18. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I see what I did there.

    19. Re:So Sad by alannon · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that will go over really well: Punish people HARDER for picking on someone who's already advantaged compared to the perpetrator, as opposed to picking on someone who's disadvantaged. How about additional punishments for picking on the rich. Or those good at sports. Sorry, but we aren't QUITE yet living in the world of Idiocracy, so no, being smart doesn't make you a vulnerable class.

    20. Re:So Sad by CrazyDuke · · Score: 2

      Sadly, in reality, the same bullies end up exploiting this system as well by basically employing parasitic behavior. What they can do, for instance, is pretend to be on top of it by taking credit for group's brainstorming and while volunteering everyone else to do the work to someone important, park their asses on the project and make the other people pay them to get out of the way enough for the work to be done, hijack the project in the last 5 minutes and turn it in for their own benefit, trash it, and dump it back into the laps of the rest of the team, because they obviously need to fix their problem.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
    21. Re:So Sad by ash11888 · · Score: 1

      And that's how you get adults who are anti-social and awkward around other adults once they get into the "real world". The WORST thing you can do is take them out of a situation(s) where they cannot handle what's going on. If you want to ensure that your child can handle these situations, let them experience it and then sit down with them and talk about it and how they could handle it better. And I don't mean by going to an authoritative figure or just running from a situation. Coming from a smart girl who was picked on in elementary school, I learn to better cope with those situations because my own mother sat me down, let me explain what happened, told me to get tough and what I could do to make the situation better for me next time. I was never in a physical fight. I used my brain and developed the wit to get back at my bullies. By the time I was in middle school, I wasn't really bothered, and when I was I had myself and others to back me up. Yes, I sometimes was called a goodie-good but I was sociable with others while making straight A's. Some parents are the problem by hindering a child from developing in all aspects. Helicopter parents, IMO, are the worst out there.

      --
      "If confusion is the first step to knowledge, I must be a genius." ~Larry Leissner
    22. Re:So Sad by ash11888 · · Score: 1

      I will also state this: I'm in my early 20's. I think I associate closer to these statistics then others may. Some may have experience from the 60s, 70s and 80s, but mine is from the 90's up to mid 00s. Times have changed and I do think children are meaner than what they use to.

      --
      "If confusion is the first step to knowledge, I must be a genius." ~Larry Leissner
    23. Re:So Sad by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      I thought "everyone wins!" these days in elementary school. Has that finally changed again?

    24. Re:So Sad by tbird81 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I usually have quite high karma in Slashdot, but I've started playing my comments down to avoid bullies. (At least that's what I tell people, am actually really pretty stupid and lazy, but I like the bullying excuse more.)

    25. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You deserved it. My parents were always on my case when I brought home an A because it wan't an A+.

    26. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought the bastards who tormented me in school grew up to be cops, or Republican presidential candidates.

    27. Re:So Sad by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      I was bullied, whether it was for being smart (top student in my year) or being poorly socialised, I don't know.

      I would routinely be not chosen for teams in sport (even though I regularly participated in house athletics and swimming and was part of the school gymnastics squad). In year 12 my locker would be turned upside down and faced into the wall - I got quite skilled at flipping it back the other way. I even had a tub of red paint thrown over me at one point like Carrie at the prom.

      I was the only girl in the Maths/Science stream in senior year. Even a couple of my teachers gave me grief about why wasn't I taking accounting or typing like the other girls (what was I doing in the physics and extended maths class).

      It was isolating and even now, over 20 years later, I generally feel like I'm always outside of the general flock.

      University was a wake up call, when I went from frequently being the smartest person in the room to not even close. Not that I was in the bottom segment, but I was certainly no longer in the top.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    28. Re:So Sad by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Funnily enough all the jocks just loved me, because it was a "football school" and instead of actually going to class for my 4 years of HS (which I just got in trouble when I was sent to class in JHS because I was bored, even got to a point a teacher accused me of cheating because I was better at math in my head than he could do with pen and paper) so instead of going to class i was given my own classroom and when the jocks had study hall they were sent to me so I could teach them enough to pass the minimums required to play.

      I'll never forget how it happened, my first day of HS and the first class was gym, which I couldn't stand anyway, and damned if the coach doesn't say the first thing "Any of you that aren't ready to give me 10 laps can just leave right now" and while the other sheep just sat there I started heading for the door. When others saw me get up about a third joined me and when the coach asked what I was doing I simply said "following your instructions!" LOL, needless to say that got me sent to the study hall as the principal told the coach "You NEVER tell them they can leave, what are you thinking?"

      So there I am in study hall, which is run by the football coach, and he sees me reading "best sci/fi writers of the 70s" and he demands I come up there and bring the book, thinking I'm hiding comics or a dirty mag like some 80s sitcom. When he looks at the book and asks if I can actually understand all this "sci/fi babble" I begin explaining the nature of the grandfather paradox being used in the story I'm reading and not a minute in he just gets this glazed look and says "Enough! You come with me, and bring your class list" and he takes it from me and goes from class to class and says "See this kid? He gets an A and is marked present no matter what"..of course being a smartass I ask "Why not an A+?" and get told not to be a wiseass. Next thing I know I've got my own classroom, filled with jocks that have played the feetsball all their lives and I swear their spelling was "flour" and "stuud" for flower and stood. When I told my parents what was going on and why I wouldn't have homework...well ever, they said "Why are we not surprised? just keep working with your computers and reading books, you'll be better off anyway" which was true, from what I saw their math classes were so dumbed down it was barely above balancing a checkbook and their history classes were just spewing dates with zero context or discussion about the events.

      So I feel for ya, its just a shame you didn't go to a football school so you could have just bypassed the bullshit. a couple of years later I was sitting in on a programming class at the local college and when the teacher asked about our backgrounds and I told the story he was like "No way, you telling me you NEVER had to go to class, take ANY tests, and got a perfect score and a diploma?" and sure enough a little gal in the backed popped up and said "OMG you too? That was what I did at my school too!" and I said "Go Lions!" and she laughed and said "Go Panthers! We beat your team twice and you beat us twice, it was pretty evenly matched those years" and the teacher just stood there with a fish out of water expression, but when you were smart and went to a football school that was just how things worked. I moved back to town a few years ago and really wasn't surprised to see the school itself was average but the gym and field were state of the art, that is what you get at football schools.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    29. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh, yeah, mine forbade me from socializing with anyone for 6 to 10 months at a shot for getting the occasional C+ from late childhood through my adolescent years, in addition to the beatings. Take a guess why the grades where "low." Basic socialization was for losers and criminals. I went to maybe 3 heavily supervised parties before I turned 18 and hauled ass out of Dodge. Now my parents can't figure our why I find socialization awkward and don't date much, much less have kids and a spouse.

      That 10 year or so head start has made catching up a bitch.

    30. Re:So Sad by hackula · · Score: 1

      Its a new twist on the Dunning-Kreuger effect.

    31. Re:So Sad by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The dumb are held to a high standard. If you are a bad enough student, maybe one day, you too could grow up to be the next GW Bush. Clinton and Gore were both attacked by the conservative media as too undumbishness. But James Danforth Quayle rose to be Vice President and Bush to President. If you are smart, you make others feel as dumb as they are, so they hurt you for it. It's not about fear of success (though there has been some of that hinted in the media), but the fear of getting the shit kicked out of you that forces conformity.

    32. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question I have is why do people bully people with intellectual or artistic talent and not those with a basketball or other athletic talent?

    33. Re:So Sad by russotto · · Score: 1

      And that's how you get adults who are anti-social and awkward around other adults once they get into the "real world". The WORST thing you can do is take them out of a situation(s) where they cannot handle what's going on.

      You think? How about throwing them back into it day after day for years, telling them any issues they have are their own fault and their own problem to solve, punishing them for trying to do so, and if they don't, punishing them for being bullied. That's the standard way of handling it, and it doesn't seem to have such a great outcome.

    34. Re:So Sad by fatp · · Score: 1

      That people feel they had hidden their abilities...
      I am pretty sure they actually produce similar output when they try their best

    35. Re:So Sad by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      I was on the wrong end of an ass kicking a time or two, because of small minds who resented my intellect. Know what happened? I hit a growth spurt and began to give ass kickings back. The funny thing is that I was then regarded as a behavioral problem.

      After kicking a few asses, I didn't have to fight much any more.

      The moral of this story is that the nerd to whom you're being an asshole is smart enough to figure out how to cripple you with a sweat sock full of loose change.

      Now, I'm a reasonably well paid professional and the others are cooking my french fries.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    36. Re:So Sad by tqk · · Score: 2

      I'm in my early 20's. ... Times have changed and I do think children are meaner than what they use to.

      I think it may always appear that way. Children have always been uncivilized brutes needing direction not to be. They're dependent upon their parents to give them that direction. That's what's really lacking, especially nowadays.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    37. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I envy your experience. Myself I'm from a "hockey town". I wasn't bad at sports but I was still "the smart kid" and after a couple of the "star athletes" of our school decided that was reason enough to both cross-check* me during a game I wound up getting into snowboarding and weight lifting instead. Turns out dumb athletic kids don't like it when the smart kid doesn't suck at sports.

      Sadly one of those kids actually made it far enough in the hockey world to make a living off it (not in the NHL but still a decent-enough pro career).

      * For those who don't know anything about ice hockey, cross-checking generally means "hit the other guy with your stick while holding it with both hands" and among adults it's unlikely to happen between the members of the same team. In my case it was two of my teammates who attacked me just to put me in my place...

    38. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been through the lack of socialization imposed mostly by my mother from junior high school to senior high school. It effectively was worse than the few times I was the target of bullies.

    39. Re:So Sad by tqk · · Score: 1

      make everyone else look like dumbasses. Of course you are going to beat the shit out of them.

      Spoken like the true homophobic dipsh*t you are! I just posted a comment re. that even hacker communities are infested with bullying a.k.a. "homophobia," Slashdot being no exception.

      You put too much into a username. Yeah, "Hetero Good" is pretty silly, but going from that doofus's rant/username to "Slashdot is homophobic", and hacker communities are infested with bullying, and bullying == homophobia?

      I've been bullied. I'm not gay. Step back, and look at what you're claiming.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    40. Re:So Sad by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 0

      Honestly, what abilities do they have? The ability to memorize useless information and then spew it back on a test? If they want to avoid bullying, perhaps they should get with the picture and realize that academic success in public schools really isn't that impressive at this point.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    41. Re:So Sad by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      the school system in America is already holding back kids who excel as it is.

      It's probably holding everyone back, actually. Teaching to the test, useless busywork, making mathematics and other subjects seem like memorization games...

      I fear we're teaching people that intelligence is the same thing as having a good memory.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    42. Re:So Sad by purpledinoz · · Score: 2

      Have you guys seen the movie "Idiocracy"? It's a hilarious movie, which is probably the most accurate depiction of the future... This process has now started.

    43. Re:So Sad by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      And that's how you get adults who are anti-social and awkward around other adults once they get into the "real world".

      I've seen plenty of products of the public education system that are exactly as you describe. But since when is being locked up in a building with others your own age while playing memorization games similar to the "real world"? Since when is that the only way to socialize?

      The WORST thing you can do is take them out of a situation(s) where they cannot handle what's going on.

      In my opinion, the best thing you can do is take them out of situations where they're not getting an education; that is, the public education system.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    44. Re:So Sad by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 2

      As my father once said "what the hell is this B doing on your report card?!"

      Sounds as if he was quite concerned about the fact that you didn't complete enough pointless busywork or memorize enough useless information for a test. Grades are all-important, clearly.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    45. Re:So Sad by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I was in the gifted and AP classes, and I always scored in the high 90% in any standardized tests I took.

      And they thought you were intelligent because of that? If they put some effort into it, I'm sure they'd be capable of memorizing information without understanding it and then regurgitating it back on a poorly-designed standardized test, too.

      Well, at least, that's what all the standardized tests I've seen rely on: memorization.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    46. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you mean someone who had a university degree in CS plus college diplomas in Electronics Engineering, working for a boss who had a diploma in computers and nothing else? And the boss is an illiterate tool with no numeracy skills, no logical deduction skills, and an over-inflated ego? That would describe two years I will never get back, and I will never work for that ass-hole outfit ever again.

    47. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What happened to the, people should be humble dammit, and it matters more how they accommodate and interact with their peers
      club that was here the last week or two.

    48. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the moral of your story is the biggest bully was your dad?

    49. Re:So Sad by pewterbot9 · · Score: 0

      "Hetero Good" is a typo...I meant "Hetero Goof". Yes, I quite understand bullying as a wicked strategy against more than gay folks. Nonetheless, gays suffer the brunt of it, by far. My own personal experience as a gay "nerd" is plenty of homophobia to go around, in the hacker circles. Perhaps because nerds themselves are afraid of being labeled "faggot", so they behave homophobically, too, in order to deflect bullies. Your statement "I've been bullied. I'm not gay" in no way disproves my point (about anti-gay bigotry among hackers). You can see for yourself, by visiting many hacker forums. "Fagg*t" is a common expletive, including /.. Sorry to pop your naive bubble.

    50. Re:So Sad by Krneki · · Score: 1

      This is bull-crap. Being good at school has nothing to do with bulling. It's not about how good you are at math or something else, but it's about social skills.

      I have been bullied and I bullied others, when you are in a ring you fight, you won't win every fight, but you have to punch back, this is the only way, like it or not.

      The target of bullies are not smart people, but those who won't fight back.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    51. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "That people feel they need to hide their abilities..."

      American schoolkids are apparently _very_ good at this.

    52. Re:So Sad by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      The reason they set the bar so impossibly high for some is because some school systems do not separate fast and slow learners. There are differences in abilities. Here in the Netherlands we have different levels in education, starting at the age of about 12. Slow learners get classes suited to them, with early practical approaches (like mecahnics class) and internships. Math and language is reduced to the bare necessities because most of these students will not need it and they do not want it while the useful stuff they find interesting (like how to fix a car, how to mill from a drawing) is a large part of their curriculum. This separation gives both extremes (slow learning brutes, fast learning geeks, to generalize) some security in their group and a suiting curriculum. The slow learners do not feel they should keep up with the fast learners.
      It does not eliminate all bullying (nothing short of killing all human life would probably be able to do that) but it seems to help in reducing it.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    53. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably because people with athletic talent are more difficult to beat up and are usually more popular. They're typically useless, but they're popular and strong.

    54. Re:So Sad by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I have been bullied and I bullied others, when you are in a ring you fight, you won't win every fight, but you have to punch back, this is the only way, like it or not.

      School is not a ring, students are not pricefighters, and a bully trying to excuse his inexcusible behaviour by pretending they are is no reason to change this.

      The whole issue of bullying is based on the ridiculous premise that we shouldn't simply force a few pint-sized sociopaths to behave.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    55. Re:So Sad by azalin · · Score: 1

      When "everybody wins" everybody looses.

    56. Re:So Sad by loufoque · · Score: 1

      Smart people do not need to work at all to achieve A or better in high school.

    57. Re:So Sad by Krneki · · Score: 1

      Don't troll.

      The fact that school is a fight place doesn't mean I approve it. And it's not much better in a work place, it just gets more refined.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    58. Re:So Sad by loufoque · · Score: 1

      Too bad I've already commented on this story and can't mod this up.

    59. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it seems to be because it actually helps to prevent revenge. If one kid gets punished and the other does not, the situation will repeat, or repeat sooner.

      The comment about the 99% also was pretty accurate. Normal people are doing this, usually not with violence, but social exclusion is just as effective.

    60. Re:So Sad by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      I think that is because actually teaching someone a subject like mathematics only works if you love the subject yourself, and vastly exceed the ability of your students, at least at the start of the year. That's just not true for most teachers.

    61. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As my father once said "what the hell is this B doing on your report card?!"

      Sounds as if he was quite concerned about the fact that you didn't complete enough pointless busywork or memorize enough useless information for a test. Grades are all-important, clearly.

      Looks like you have some serious issues to "prove" how smart you are. I can just picture you - "grades do not matter at all. intelligence and grades are mutually exclusive. etc."

      you are a fruity doodle. pointless busywork could expand to anything, couldn't it? clearly.

    62. Re:So Sad by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I was referring to true understanding of the material.

      Looks like you have some serious issues to "prove" how smart you are.

      Only so much as anyone posting here. Of course, the same could be said about you for replying to me.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    63. Re:So Sad by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Are you sure about that? Someone could be intelligent but have a rather poor memory or have something like test anxiety. Another possibility is that the monotony of public schooling burned them out and now they no longer even have the energy try; in such a case, their potential is being wasted.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    64. Re:So Sad by tibit · · Score: 1

      That Panthers girl story made my day. Thanks, hairyfeet!

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    65. Re:So Sad by loufoque · · Score: 1

      Are you sure about that?

      I had a perfect math score at the french final high school examinations (if I remember correctly, the British equivalent is A-levels) without doing any work at all.
      This actually proved to be a problem when later in my studies I had to work to achieve things.

    66. Re:So Sad by erp_consultant · · Score: 1

      Maybe there should be some sort of "instigator" penalty. In my experience fights are almost always started by bullies. Punishing the victim for defending themselves hardly seems fair to me. Back when I was in school two kids went toe to toe in the schoolyard and that was it. Now you've got kids carrying knives and guns so it's not a simple schoolyard brawl anymore. With a zero tolerance policy bullies will simply resort to more devious tactics such as the spreading of rumors (so and so is "gay", etc.).

    67. Re:So Sad by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      I had a perfect math score at the french final high school examinations (if I remember correctly, the British equivalent is A-levels) without doing any work at all.

      That might have been the case for you, but I highly suspect it's not always the case. Of course, I was referring to the currently broken public school system that emphasizes memorization over true understanding of the material.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    68. Re:So Sad by BVis · · Score: 1

      They hold back the kids that excel because they're too underfunded to do anything other than hope to educate the lowest common denominator. As long as we see public education as a burden and a money sink, and not the asset that it is, this will be the case. Think about it: You're a teacher with 50 kids in your class due to budget cuts (demanded by senior citizens who would be perfectly happy if there were no schools at all, so long as their palatial senior centers are maintained) and 45 of them are typical dumb-as-bricks Americans. If you teach to the level of the 5 students who are genuinely talented, everyone else fails because they don't have the ability that the smart kids have. If 45 of your students fail the course you're teaching, you get labeled as a "bad teacher" and everyone who thinks the solution to the education problem is to fire more teachers will be screaming for your head. So, you dumb the class down to the point where only a few students fail, and even then, you get static from the parents who expect you to do their job for them.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    69. Re:So Sad by BVis · · Score: 1

      The solution is not to take your kid out of the public education system, the solution is to fix the goddamn system.

      If your kid isn't getting an education, that's your fault. You get out of an education what you put into it.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    70. Re:So Sad by BVis · · Score: 1

      That costs money and therefore will not see the light of day in an American public education system, not in the current environment.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    71. Re:So Sad by loufoque · · Score: 1

      The point of high school is to test if you're able to perform as asked, not to make you understand things.
      The only thing you need to do is follow the right methodology for each exercise type as instructed. Attending classes is enough in order to achieve this.

      Trying to actually think about the meaning or point of something will get you penalized. Your performance is evaluated according to what the teacher expects you to answer, not according to how correct your answer is.
      Not understanding this is probably the reason why many people fail at secondary school.

    72. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent funny... so he does not receive extra unwanted karma.

    73. Re:So Sad by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Except that change takes time and support. What do you do in the mean time while you're trying to change the system? What if you're well aware of the deficiencies of the public education system, but not enough people step up to help you change it? Do you just put your child through it anyway while you're trying to change it?

      That's the problem: change isn't easy and it takes time. I believe that you definitely should try to change it, but at the same time, you should try to ensure your child gets a quality education using whatever means you have available.

      If your kid isn't getting an education, that's your fault.

      And the fault of the teachers, government, administrators, etc. It's not solely the fault of parents that the education system is so terrible; they're just part of the problem.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    74. Re:So Sad by tqk · · Score: 1

      I usually have quite high karma in Slashdot, but I've started playing my comments down to avoid bullies.

      I cannot understand that attitude. I'd take it as a challenge. Give them enough rope to hang themselves, publicly! Backing down gets you nowhere. You're just making it easier for the next kid to be bullied!

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    75. Re:So Sad by parkinglot777 · · Score: 1

      Just exactly how many professional adults have to hide their abilities and intelligence? I bet it's the same percentage cited in the article.

      I don't agree because it depends on the level and skill of the job you are talking about. For jobs that don't require skill or very little, such as labor work, the bully may be in played more. There could be some colleagues/supervisors/bosses that don't like themselves to look bad from their supervisors/bosses, so they would bully others who look weaker. However, a solution is to fire or lay them off if the company wants to grow or even operate smoothly. Even though there may be legal issues, it is still much easier to handle compared to getting rid of a student who bullies others from a school.

      For jobs that require skills, especially in engineering, I don't see it that much at all. The only organization I may see this happen would be government type of job. In private sector, if you are being bullied and you really are intelligence and have abilities, you would likely to move on -- get another job. If you have to suppress your intelligence and abilities to keep that job, it is likely that you do NOT have that high intelligence and/or abilities. Yes, there may be certain conditions you may need to stay, such as legal status, experience, resume filling, personal issues, etc, but the percentage shouldn't be that high.

      The real question is, where is the line between intelligence, average, and dumb?

    76. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smart people do not need to work at all to achieve A or better in high school.

      I was tempted to mod you flamebait, but I think maybe you really are ignorant enough to believe what you said. Smart people have all sorts of problems at school. Maybe genius level people fail out. It's possible for a smart person to have perfect scores with no trouble in one topic and be unable to easily lean another. So, unless you define smart as getting easy A's in high school, you statement is pretty stupid. High school is a horrible place to tell smart people apart. It's more babysitting and vocational training. Being good at memorizing trivial will get you very good grades and memorizing trivial isn't what makes people smart.

      Then, there are high schools for smart people. You problem went to one for dumb people if you believe what you do. Where I currently live kids can opt to go to harder schools is they want to learn more. I've watched brilliant kids work crazy hard at these schools. They come out not just ready for college, but ready to be the best at college. College is where the rote learners find out they aren't really smart at all.

    77. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I went to college nearly for free due to having good grades in high school. Now look at all these young people coming out of college saddled with enormous amounts of student debt. You can be damn sure my kids won't be getting B's on their report cards.

    78. Re:So Sad by pelirojatica · · Score: 1

      Yes, my father could be a jerk, and worse. But, he wasn't a jerk for the sake of being mean, he had a goal for our family. He went from penniless immigrant to American retiree with four college-educated children in about 35 years.

      The job of a parent is to prepare their children for self-sufficiency, not protect every widdle feewing. The world is not fair, and I'm better off by far, than my childhood friends who were never pushed to excel, never subject to the stresses of high expectations.

      The moral of the story is that you can't let petty little assholes get in your way. The goal of a happy and fulfilled life is more important than who was mean to you in school. The point is that bullying didn't derail me, because I had the advantage of my parents' perspective on life and education.

      "Don't let the bastards get you down."

    79. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have a bit of a bee in your bonnet over that question, don't you?

    80. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen you post this story before and you seem to be happy about it. It seems sad to me. What could you have accomplished if you had your intellect nurtured?

    81. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Civ taught me this was the biggest risk. You have to keep pushing yourself because you might be the biggest bad ass on the continent, but there's usually a bigger bad-ass across the ocean who will show up and destroy you.

      Too many people are content to climb to the top of their small heap of people when they could be soaring in the clouds.

    82. Re:So Sad by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      someone who's already advantaged compared to the perpetrator

      Advantaged how? They're held to the same educational standard as anyone else.

      How about additional punishments for picking on the rich. Or those good at sports.

      Does that happen often and is it motivated by them being rich or good at sports? Do the rich people good at sports feel pressured to take a back seat because of it? If that's the case, then hell, yes, by all means! Not developing your talents to the fullest is borderline criminal. (Well, at least Asian parents seem to feel that way.)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    83. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe not "all-important", but important - Anything that closes doors and limits options is important.

    84. Re:So Sad by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      You're welcome, when I talked to the Panthers girl after class it turned out both she and I had been on opposite sides of the field for those games, since we helped the jocks we got great seats front and center for the games so at all those games I was directly across the field from her, we just never met.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    85. Re:So Sad by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      I would have spent 4 years in detention, because i already knew how to balance a checkbook and spewing dates with zero discussion of the events would have bored me to tears? hell in JHS I was so damned bored I reprogrammed their BASIC computers to insult those that got wrong answers, when the teachers were panicking over a "master hacker" attacking their class the one teacher that actually knew me just rolled their eyes and said "just go drag his butt in here and make him fix it, he probably rigged it to just insult you too if you try to undo it" which was true, if you didn't know the master password it would just call you an idiot.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    86. Re:So Sad by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I was called "Doogie Howser" for most of high school, as one of the nicest things I was called. If that's not being singled out for "being smart" what is?

    87. Re:So Sad by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I went from being the smartest person in my 2nd grade class (smarter than the teacher - don't ask). To going to one of the largest universities on the planet and being the smartest person in the first honors physics class (not including the professor). I wasn't always the smartest in the room, but usually, I was a peer with the teacher/professor, and didn't do well with the students. As a high school senior, I taught a semester of senior physics. I took the "smart" students and the regular teacher took the others. When we merged the classes for he second half of the year, my half was ahead. I could have been more ahead, but I held back the class to keep on the unified syllabus.

      And yes, I got my ass kicked by bullies from 2nd grade through 6th, when I learned a little better to hide, and in both private and public schools.

    88. Re:So Sad by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      their history classes were just spewing dates with zero context or discussion about the events.

      I found that when I taught history narrative, they remembered the dates better. When you remember that Lincoln freed the slaves after the civil war started and before he was killed, and a president serves 4-year terms, and Lincoln was killed at the beginning of the second term (and terms are in leap years), then you can deduce when the war started, give or take 4 years, when the emancipation proclamation was, give or take a few years, and when Lincoln was shot, give or take a few months. All you need to do is remember one,and you can figure out the rest very quickly. But the events are taught in isolation, without any link to related events or the interesting facts like Russia freed all the slaves (serfs) about 2 months before the US Civil War started. Linking such things helps understanding of local factors, and eases the remembering of all of them.

      But no, it's "memorize the date that XXX happened." and nothing else. Because that's what's tested for on the standard exams.

    89. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "my father"

      What is your point? That your father gave a shit? Not everyone is so fortunate.

    90. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since the media only covered the story grudgingly, you speak from excusable ignorance of the fact that Bush's grades at Yale were actually better than Kerry's. I'll also bet that you are enthralled with Obama's intellectual achievements in academia, which is all "Hope and Guess". If he would simply allow access to his transcripts like former Presidents, we could determine for ourselves if we think he was and academic super star or a less than mediocre pass along with a record full of "INCOMPLETE" stamps.

    91. Re:So Sad by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Part of the issue with Bush was that his grades before Yale were worse than many people turned away. Ho only got in because of who his daddy is. He got special treatment because of his genetics, yet is against it when others get benefit based on who their father is. President "Nuke-you-lur" wouldn't be taken as a scholar if he had been a Rhodes scholar. Nor his daddy's running mate, "Mr. Potato(e) Head".

    92. Re:So Sad by cffrost · · Score: 1

      Smart people do not need to work at all to achieve A or better in high school.

      Not doing any work is unlikely to yield A-grades, regardless of intelligence. Further, this survey suggests that achieving A-grades is likely to burden some students with extracurricular work—i.e., immersive bully-resistance training—courtesy of less-intelligent students.

      --
      Thank you, Edward Snowden.

      "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
    93. Re:So Sad by cffrost · · Score: 1

      If [Obama] would simply allow access to his transcripts like former Presidents, we could determine for ourselves if we think he was and academic super star or a less than mediocre pass along with a record full of "INCOMPLETE" stamps.

      It seems unlikely to me that Harvard Law Review would select a student with "less than mediocre" academic performance for editorship, then go on to elect that student to president. Quoth Wikipedia:

      Membership in the Harvard Law Review is offered to select Harvard law students based on first-year grades and performance in a writing competition held at the end of the first year. The writing competition includes two components: an edit of an unpublished article and an analysis of a recent United States Supreme Court or Court of Appeals case. The writing competition submissions are graded blindly to assure anonymity. Fourteen editors (two from each 1L section) are selected based on a combination of their first-year grades and their competition scores. Twenty editors are selected based solely on their competition scores. The remaining editors are selected on a discretionary basis. The president of the Harvard Law Review is elected by the other editors.

      --
      Thank you, Edward Snowden.

      "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
    94. Re:So Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As my father once said "what the hell is this B doing on your report card?!"

      Sounds as if he was quite concerned about the fact that you didn't complete enough pointless busywork or memorize enough useless information for a test. Grades are all-important, clearly.

      Those are all really simple and easy to accomplish tasks. If you were unable to do simple busywork and memorize a few factoids then grades are the least of your problems.

    95. Re:So Sad by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Those are all really simple and easy to accomplish tasks.

      And not at all useful. Consider the effects that such repetitive tasks could have on an individual's willingness to learn. Such tasks could make someone so bored and uninterested in learning that they stop trying altogether. It is not a case of being being unable to memorize information; just about anyone can do that. The problem is that it's boring, useless, and does not teach people understanding.

      In my opinion, it's not a good thing to be a mindless follower.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    96. Re:So Sad by muchObliged · · Score: 1

      nothing to do with the "So Sad" post, I have always wanted to visit Alaska and your site may have just convinced me to finally commit :-) (I suppose I should stay a little bit on topic. As for the bullying, it doesn't make sense and there isn't much to say about the issue. I was picked on and found myself having less friends for being "the geek who likes all those weird science fiction books". I chose my friends on quality, not quantity, and that will remain my friend mantra)

    97. Re:So Sad by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Disclaimer:
      That is not my site, and I'm just a friend of the owner of that site, pointing traffic his way, though it's probably a waste now, as he took off the google ads that got him $10 every 6 months or so. Though I was on his site for a while for there was a period of about 2 years when every trip he took, I was there as well. But then, he had a breakdown and I moved away (unrelated), and I haven't been back to Alaska since, and the stories about the trips I went on eventually worked their way off the site.

    98. Re:So Sad by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      Well Gore was a pretty classic example of a nerd not understanding the importance of soft skills. He thought that being correct was the most important thing. But it's not. *Convincing* people you are correct is the most important thing in politics. He lost to GW Bush in large part because he came off as a pompous ass in the debates.

      When you need the stupid people to help you, you have to be gracious towards the stupid people. Not condescending.

  2. This is news? by 14erCleaner · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It was like this when I was in school back in the 60's and 70's. I realize the study is from the UK, but anti-intellectualism is a long tradition here in the good ol' USA - witness the support for creationism and denial of climate change, etc, etc.

    --
    Have you read my blog lately?
    1. Re:This is news? by qortra · · Score: 5, Insightful

      witness the support for creationism and denial of climate change

      This doesn't have anything to do with the article. The article is about bullying, not your favorite religious/political issue.

    2. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Whoa there, you just linked two different things. Don't get me wrong I believe in global warming and evolution, but that's not really the same issue. The issue here is people are made fun of for being smart (or they think they will be.) People don't disbelieve global warming or evolution because they think they'll look smart and be made fun of otherwise. That's just a completely different issue and pretending that they're linked will just cause people to disagree with you on this issue when in reality they don't, they just disagree on those for the most part unrelated issues.

    3. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but this is unrelated. Most of the "assualt" you claim to see isn't some "bring down the top" scheme. It's people addressing inequality problems. I'm an enemy of inequality, but not an enemy of those who take advantage of it.

    4. Re:This is news? by qortra · · Score: 1

      And the assault on people that do well financially.

      This also doesn't have anything to do with the article. The article is about bullying, not the "assault" on fiscal conservatism.
      Would anybody else care to attempt an on-topic post?

    5. Re:This is news? by future+assassin · · Score: 1

      They rehash shit like this every 10 years or so. OMFG the poor young people... same shit has been happening since the begging of modern time. Someone has to make their position look good on paper.

      --
      by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    6. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      assault*

    7. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might wish to believe they're two different things, but it is a very connected and has been since the first scientist ran afoul of religious dogma.

      People do disbelieve global warming and evolution because it's part of conformity to an existing group, and pretending that they're completely different will just cause people to despair over your lack of awareness over this issue.

    8. Re:This is news? by fsck1nhippies · · Score: 2

      Actually, I think my comment and the one from 14erCleaner are 100% on topic. Children are taught very young that to be different is to be wrong. Good grades are different from the norm unfortunately, and the kid gets pummeled for it.

      People who argue about the topics we just pointed out suffer the same fate (in a way). The point is that it is a learned behavior , and starts very young.

    9. Re:This is news? by mwvdlee · · Score: 2

      Civilized people behave civilized, barbaric people behave barbaric.
      Guess who's most likely to start a fight and who's most likely to win that fight?

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    10. Re:This is news? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Longer ...

      Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor.

      Heinlein, from the 1950's

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    11. Re:This is news? by fsck1nhippies · · Score: 1

      I believe in equality as well. Everyone should work equally as hard, and get their due. I was not implying that it was any scheme to bring down the top, I was referring to the fact that any type of success is met with bullying. Now I understand you can get beyond it and become so filthy rich that you don't care, or so smart that people have no choice but listen(we could hope). I posted a provocative comment that was definitely on topic, but also to illicit conversation from the masses.

      We are all in this together, and we need to start acting like it. Should the rich pay more taxes? Damn right...Should the smart kid lead the class? Do I have to ask?

    12. Re:This is news? by readin · · Score: 1

      What better evidence for intellectualism than that a post that a clear attempt to hijack the thread to make non-sequitur attacks on political opponents gets modded Insightful?

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    13. Re:This is news? by AwesomeMcgee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Haha way to exemplify the dude's point. "Creationism" and "Climate change" aren't religious or political issues. They're just anti-evidence ignorance. Politics and religion are about ideas and beliefs, creationism and climate change are about nonsense and anger. But avoiding intellectual achievement for a long enough time has ensured our culture is full of people like you who aren't capable of such critical thoughts.

    14. Re:This is news? by skelly33 · · Score: 1

      I think it's kind of interesting, though I recall kids being penalized more for being socially awkward, not for being smart. I realize there is some overlap, but it is not an exclusive relationship - there were plenty of... er... academically challenged kids that were equally awkward and who were tormented accordingly. The punks just couldn't get enough of preying on the weak, smart or no.

    15. Re:This is news? by elashish14 · · Score: 2

      The link between the two is that there will always be social pressure to conform, rather than rely on facts, hard evidence and logic. Ad hominem and appeal-to-authority/majority fallacies are just too easy to fall for.

      --
      I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    16. Re:This is news? by ninetyninebottles · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This also doesn't have anything to do with the article. The article is about bullying, not the "assault" on fiscal conservatism.

      Just to be clear, the right wing in the US is not advocating for fiscal conservatism. Conservatism is keeping with historical norms. Rather, they are advocating for fiscal extremism, levels of taxation progressiveness lower than anything in the last 50 years. That's the opposite of conservative.

    17. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, it's certainly been this way in the UK for a long time too. If anything I'm shocked that this isn't common knowledge already, bullies use physical aggression to put themselves on top of the school food-chain, anyone who might be a threat to them will be the first to get stomped.

    18. Re:This is news? by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 0

      I agree that if it was not for the Muslims and their sky-daddy this world would be a better place and few Muslims would try and bully us with bombs. Oh thats right can't say anything about Muslims just Christians. Last I checked Muslims were very pro-gay right? When is the last time a Christian stoned an adulter or hung a gay or beheaded an infidel or bombed a mosque? You sound like a bully to me, you make fun of a certain group because you feel you can get away with it and it's cool. You would not dare make fun of a Muslim in the same way because they are bigger bullies then you and they have bombs. So you pick on the weakest and least likely group to fight back.

    19. Re:This is news? by qortra · · Score: 2, Insightful
      OK dude, let's break this down.

      - Creationism is, among other things, a religious issue in that religion is typically the determining factor in whether one believes it.
      - Both creationism and climate change are, among other things, political issues in that politicians are elected based on their views on these issues.
      - Even if I stipulate to your meaningless claim that "Creationism" and "Climate Change" are "just anti-evidence ignorance" [sic], it doesn't change my original point that these issues have nothing to do with the original article, which (one more time) is about bullying.

      Politics and religion are about ideas and beliefs, creationism and climate change are about nonsense and anger.

      This sentence is semantically null. Revise and resubmit.

      full of people like you who aren't capable of such critical thoughts

      This is an Ad Hominem fallacy.

    20. Re:This is news? by Mystiq · · Score: 1

      I would like to point out that I went to Hebrew school, and was summarily bullied by the same people -- and more -- who were bullying me in the public school I also went to.

      Basically, you're bullied if you're outside the norm. It doesn't matter who it is doing the bullying, although I might agree that some groups may be more likely to be bullies based on how closely they value tradition or how afraid they are of individualism. Unfortunately for me, I am socially awkward and way outside the norm. Delightfully weird, but outside the norm.

      I like to think my personality traits make me a creative thinker but they do me no favors in other situations. Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of the pluses of the things that made me different until late high school.

      This article disturbs me because I would do anything I could to encourage people to be different. I wouldn't change. I like different. Different stands out. I like people who stand out. I seek it out. I like creative free thinkers. Homogenization is bad for the species. It's unfortunate because bullies only encourage people to be clones of one another. I hated every last one of the bullies because they wanted to group everyone into one of two groups: the jocks and the skaters. I was neither. If you didn't fit, you had no identity and were game from either group.

      This country needs to stop punishing the different and intelligent. Maybe when that happens we'll see a push towards science and people who are less religious. (I went to Hebrew school but it went in one ear and out the other.) The smart (and benevolent) people should be the ones running the country, not the politicians and religious people.

    21. Re:This is news? by qortra · · Score: 1

      Feel free to redefine the term "fiscal conservatism" if you'd like, but the current consensus is that is "Free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes, and other conservative policies are also often but not necessarily affiliated with fiscal conservatism".
      Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_conservatism
      If you do redefine the term, please consider revising the Wikipedia article.

    22. Re:This is news? by AmazinglySmooth · · Score: 1

      Please define creationism or denial of climate change, because I think you are vastly oversimplifying what other think/believe. I think you are referring to the origin of man and whether or not climate change is anthropomorphic or natural. Since science cannot prove something that isn't repeatable (check out the scientific method), I think that the origins of man cannot be proven--in fact, I think there is room for debate. As to the causes of climate change, I think a large debate continues about all the causes and over what is the best temperature for the earth. Of course, you could be right, but I think your argument is bogus.

    23. Re:This is news? by AwesomeMcgee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Creationism is the belief (regardless of source) that humans were created by a super-being 6000 years ago, despite insurmountable evidence humanity is far older.

      Human caused climate change disbelief is the thought that regardless of vast scientific agreement based on hard research and evidence, humans are not in fact causing any form of climate change even if it is occurring.

      Call both of those "religion and politics" if you will, but that's just displaying your lack of analytic skills which in a normal studious person can quickly identify these are both just beliefs that evidence should be thrown out and ignored. Throwing out evidence and ignoring objective analysis is the greatest practice of the intellectual underachiever, which is what this article is claiming our country's culture has pressured people towards.

    24. Re:This is news? by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

      It's significant that it hasn't changed in forty years when so much else has.

      It may be news that people are hiding their abilities: I don't remember seeing that question asked on previous surveys.

    25. Re:This is news? by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Haha way to exemplify the dude's point. "Creationism" and "Climate change" aren't religious or political issues. They're just anti-evidence ignorance. ...

      Yup, and that in turn is tied to the widespread anti-intellectualism in the US. Or, as I heard it when I was a kid, the widespread dislike of "book learnin'". And it's not always just an abstract (or religious) argument.

      I recall an incident when I was a teenager. Due to the dry summers where we lived (a suburb of Seattle), my dad installed some rain barrels below the house's downspouts, and the water was used to water the lawn and gardens. Partway through the summer, I noticed the little "wigglers" in the barrels. So I mentioned to my parents that we had mosquito larvae, and we might want to do something to get rid of them. Their reaction was "What???" They'd never heard of mosquito larvae, and it sounded like a technical term to them. They knew what mosquitos were, but didn't believe for a second that the little wigglers had anything to do with mosquitos. They demanded that I tell them where I'd learned such a stupid idea. They accused me of learning it from books, and when I admitted it. They firmly ordered me to shut up about it, and not to touch the barrels. So our yard became a breeding area for local mosquitos.

      Of course, I had a fleeting temptation to report them to the local health authorities. But I didn't, because I understood quite well what it would to do my "family life". And the little critters continued to breed in our yard.

      This isn't an abstract problem. Here in New England, we now have a problem with eastern equine encephalitis (EEE), which is carried by mosquitos. Worldwide, many of the worst diseases are spread by the local mosquitos. The above story was a clear case where the locals' anti-intellectualism was a clear danger to public health. I'd suggest that if you do surveys of the topic here in New England, you'll find a part of the population that is similarly maintaining the mosquito population and similarly rejecting the stupid intellectual idea that they are doing so. Anti-intellectualism is alive and flourishing in the US.

      Evolution and climate change can be dismissed as remote in time and unimportant intellectual exercises. But EEE is a present danger, and it's being aided and abetted by the intentional ignorance of a part of the population. Similarly, medical people have been prevented from eradicating several diseases (e.g. measles and polio) by the know-nothingism in several parts of the world dominated by religious people. You can argue all you like that it's not the religious doctrines that are at fault, but that doesn't change the fact that very often the religion is used as an excuse by the powerful to impose ignorance on the population.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    26. Re:This is news? by gd2shoe · · Score: 2

      Conservatism is about conserving what has worked in the past.

      There is simply no path back from where we are to where we were (public dept is to high, regulatory over-burden too hard to reverse). All we're left with is arguing about how to get somewhere sane. Some conservatives aren't doing it very intelligently*. Other so-called conservatives are taking advantage of the situation. Some few are trying to fix problems, but are restrained by idiots from their side and decried by extremist from the other.

      *(to be fair, this post could easily be changed from "conservative" to "progressive" and still be completely correct.)

      --
      I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    27. Re:This is news? by qortra · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Something being obviously stupid/wrong/anti-intellectual is not mutually exclusive with it being a political or religious issue (as it seems you are claiming). For instance, if 50% of people in a country strongly believe that women should be legally required to wear a Burka in public and 50% believe that they should be allowed to wear whatever they want, it is a political issue in that country. This is regardless of whether this is any insurmountable evidence that such a law would be harmful or unjust.

      but that's just displaying your lack of analytic skills which in a normal studious person can quickly identify

      Again, you regress to Ad Hominem attacks. Why are you so quick to point out how little estimation you have for other peoples' "analytical skills"?

    28. Re:This is news? by tbird81 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Exactly.

      Are you bullied because of your 98% score in the maths quiz? Or because you're a weirdo who picks his nose, and stands way too close when trying to have a conversation?

      In my experience at school, the most bullied people weren't smart. One was smelly (he must have had constipation and some faecal leakage I guess, and his home didn't have a shower, only a bath) and would have only been about average academically - he turned out okay as an adult I remember. Another kid I remember used to insult someone randomly, then run away because he knew he'd get the bash. I remember at a school concert him sitting on his mother's knee, he would have been 15.

      I remember being punched in the stomach once for no reason, but that was by an older kid who would have had no idea about my grades. Probably because I was weak looking and he didn't like my hair or something.

      Sure my friends/classmates might have said something like "geek", or "schoooolaaaaar [said sarcastically]" or whatever we said in 90s, but no-one was actually bullied for being smart - just occasionally for the baggage that can come with being academically smart. Being smart was a good thing, because at least that could explain some of the weirdness and was a valued skill.

      My thought is that "bullying" now means "said something mean to me once". Whereas I think of it as the daily harassment of someone with constant verbal barrage, destruction of property, deliberate ostracism, demeaning and devaluing comments about the victim, and physical violence and irritation.

    29. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a fallacy when it's literally what's currently happening. You're not showing your ability to think critically right now. The most you can say is that he's generalizing.

    30. Re:This is news? by pewterbot9 · · Score: 0

      Christian evangelists, fundamentalists, zealots et al, are indeed /very/ homophobic. They only thing that is stopping them for persecuting gays just as severely as Muslims, are our (western democracy) laws. Numerous Republican politicians throughout this unfair land, continue to propose the discrimination against homosexuals, including isolating them from mainstream (hetero) society, by locking them up in concentration camps...some even go so far as to propose excecution of LGTB citizens. FYI: there is one major issue which unites Muslims and Xians. Can you guess which one? Okay, not gonna hold my breath, tis: Gay marriage. The prevention and elimination of it, that is.

    31. Re:This is news? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry but you are wrong, you are mixing up the creationists and young earthers and those are most of the time two different groups. I've heard creationists say that the earth is indeed billions of years old and early man around in some form for millions of years, their argument is simply on the "How?" and while I consider their arguments basically a "God of the gaps" argument most are NOT young earthers, who believe Adam rode on dinos or that Satan ran around with a shovel burying fake bones to turn us away from their God.

      And climate change is a different kettle of fish, you might want to look up "The temperature in 1880 is getting colder" to see there is some evidence out there that somebody is futzing with the numbers to make the change more dramatic. Are we changing the climate? I say there is evidence for both theories, such as the medieval warming period on the nay side and the acidity of the oceans on the yay side, and I think carbon credits is nothing but a scam cooked up by a few fat cats to squeeze more money out of the lower classes while bypassing it themselves with carbon credit shell corps and shipping factories to China where they won't have to pay for the carbon emissions. personally i think with a combo of nuclear, bio diesel, and renewables we can have cleaner power which should be desirable regardless of AGW but then the leeches couldn't make a mint and the NIMBYs have a fit if you build squat (Look at how China will have TWENTY FIVE reactors built in the time it takes one to get through committee here) so it really doesn't matter as politics and greed will keep the whole thing deadlocked.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    32. Re:This is news? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      This is an Ad Hominem fallacy.

      AwesomeMcgee isn't saying, "You're stupid, so your argument is stupid." He's saying, "Your argument is stupid, from which I conclude you're stupid." The first would be an example of the ad hominem fallacy at work. The second isn't.

      And I have to say, the more you write, the more evidence you provide that his analysis is correct.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    33. Re:This is news? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      Again, you regress to Ad Hominem [sic] attacks.

      Again, you display your total lack of understanding of what an ad hominem argument actually is. That hole you're standing in is getting pretty deep; you might want to stop digging.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    34. Re:This is news? by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 1

      Creationism is the belief (regardless of source) that humans were created by a super-being 6000 years ago, despite insurmountable evidence humanity is far older.

      There are at least three things wrong in that sentence. Perhaps you should apply your analytic skills before you type and especially before you create your own set of beliefs.

      --
      Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
    35. Re:This is news? by qortra · · Score: 1
      Ad hominem definition:

      marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

      The following three statements are instances of Ad hominem attacks (in this case, all levied against me in this thread):

      but that's just displaying your lack of analytic skills which in a normal studious person can quickly identify

      full of people like you who aren't capable of such critical thoughts

      That hole you're standing in is getting pretty deep; you might want to stop digging.

    36. Re:This is news? by AwesomeMcgee · · Score: 1

      If you had those critical thinking skills mentioned you'd realize all attacks you listed were attacking your claims, the character attacks were just window dressing. Except that last one about digging a hole, that wasn't even a character attack but sarcastic advice based on your statements.

      Here I'll give you an example, ad hominem attack:
      You're a doodie head.

      Attack based on your claims:
      Based on what you've said I believe you are a doodie head.

      Happy?

    37. Re:This is news? by qortra · · Score: 1

      There may be a connection, loosely interpreted. However, I just don't think the OP really had any interest in discussing the original topic. He just wanted a platform to mention his thoughts about how stupid he thinks the Old USA is concerning issues like climate change and creationism, and of course once we're on this topic, he knows we won't leave.

      In general, people get on Slashdot and they want to talk about a particular thing, but there aren't any articles specifically about that topic on the front page. So, they jump on the closest article they can find and hope it's close enough. "Speaking of Open Source, have you noticed how hard it is to Open Doors lately?"

    38. Re:This is news? by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 1

      This never stopped the word Republican from changing meaning

    39. Re:This is news? by qortra · · Score: 1

      I have the strange feeling that if you and I met each other in person, we'd get along quite well.

      But alas, we haven't. So screw you and your oddly prudish putdowns (smiley face goes here).

    40. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The simple solution is to legalize the bullied smart kids blowing away the bullies, preferably with large caliber firearms.

    41. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Lower taxes" isn't a policy. Thought it's Zeno's paradox in action when ideologists with no clue of what they are doing actually try to implement a bad slogan as a policy.

    42. Re:This is news? by reasterling · · Score: 1

      I, too, am confounded by how difficult it is to open doors.

      --
      "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice" -- God
    43. Re:This is news? by russotto · · Score: 1

      Civilized people behave civilized, barbaric people behave barbaric.
      Guess who's most likely to start a fight and who's most likely to win that fight?

      The civilized people often plan and build weapons so when the barbaric people attack, they get clobbered by the civilized people. Do that in school and you end up in prison first time you try it, win or lose.

    44. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's possible that creationism, climate change skepticism and anti-intellectual bullying all stem, at least in part, from a common cause: a distrust, fear and/or hatred of people who have the ability and inclination to think rationally about an issue.

    45. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's worth noting here that taxation "progressiveness" refers to the tax rate increasing or "progressing" with increased income. This is a bit confusing: the straightforward interpretation would be to interpret "progressive" to refer to progress in time, moving towards new types of taxation, which would indeed make it the opposite of conservative taxation.

    46. Re:This is news? by Antony-Kyre · · Score: 1

      Let's call bullying for what it is: assault and/or battery. Of course, I'm thinking of physical bullying. There's also verbal abuse, some of which can be ignored and some of which cannot be ignored. Regardless, if it happens on school grounds, the school needs to be responsible and take appropriate action.

      The school needs address both parties. In other words, see why the student is bullying other students. That offender may be a "victim" of something him- or herself.

    47. Re:This is news? by qortra · · Score: 1

      If only I could mod your post up, I would.

      We really need more visibility around this door issue. That, and the Oxford Comma.

    48. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I remember playing dumb sometimes because I was much more intelligent than a lot of my peers, was always the first to raise my hand to answer a question (because I knew the answer), and got picked on a lot for it. I was pretty normal all around, not a stereotypical 'weird' geek by any means, quite the opposite: very socialable. It was a very sad thing but luckily it stopped at a certain age, I think around highschool.

    49. Re:This is news? by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      That might be part of the problem.

      If you basically know the whole of the science syllabus (because you're interested in it and read about it at home), it's not fair to try and put your hand up to answer every single question. What is the point of doing it? Why not let someone else try to guess for a change?

      If asked, you can tell the teacher, but you don't always have to be the one who puts his hand straight up. It just looks like you're after approval from the teacher (and this might in fact be the case).

      Again, the problem isn't that you know the facts and can figure out the questions, it's that by being "Mr I-know-I-know" you're acting socially inappropriate. People like people who share, and don't like those who hog. Even if you are good at something, sometimes it's polite to let others have a turn.

      The more socially aware "jocks" would let less talented sports people take easy catches (not running in at pushing the other guy away to take the catch themselves), or let others take an important role in a team sport (such as letting a struggling player bat first). It's common courtesy and kindness. The same should apply in maths and science.

    50. Re:This is news? by StoneyMahoney · · Score: 1

      1 - You were both correct in your original assertions. The two concepts mentioned exemplify religious/political issues that rely on denial.

      2 - You were both wrong in your following assertions. The link between anti-intellectualism and creationism/climate change denial is pretty cut and dry, so as a comment on the article it can't really be faulted. Creationism and climate change denial are indeed religious/political issues, regardless of their origins.

      3 - Why is this troll eating my pizza? STFU THE PAIR OF YOU!

    51. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This doesn't have anything to do with the article. The article is about bullying, not your favorite religious/political issue.

      It has much to do with the article. If kids are raised in an environment where science is dismissed and scientists are called liars, they will take that to the school grounds. When those subjects come up in physics or whatever class, the students that are performing best will be seen by the 'creationist children' as scientists of some sort and thus by extension liars. This is a good reason for bullies to make them targets instead of just the fat kids.

      I don't think this would actually create bullies, but it makes the bright kids targets for thusly indoctrinated bullies.

      Further, if the overall society values and praises bright kids on their good performance, they may still be bullied, but the bullying will be offset by the positive feedback and the bright kids would not try to under perform. That value and praise is missing from the anti-intellectualism society as op mentioned.

    52. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, just stop. You've been owned repeatedly and you keep coming back acting like you're winning.

      That is some kind of drain bamage, chief!

    53. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly.

      Are you bullied because of your 98% score in the maths quiz? Or because you're a weirdo who picks his nose, and stands way too close when trying to have a conversation?

      In my experience at school, the most bullied people weren't smart. One was smelly (he must have had constipation and some faecal leakage I guess, and his home didn't have a shower, only a bath) and would have only been about average academically - he turned out okay as an adult I remember. Another kid I remember used to insult someone randomly, then run away because he knew he'd get the bash. I remember at a school concert him sitting on his mother's knee, he would have been 15.

      I remember being punched in the stomach once for no reason, but that was by an older kid who would have had no idea about my grades. Probably because I was weak looking and he didn't like my hair or something.

      Sure my friends/classmates might have said something like "geek", or "schoooolaaaaar [said sarcastically]" or whatever we said in 90s, but no-one was actually bullied for being smart - just occasionally for the baggage that can come with being academically smart. Being smart was a good thing, because at least that could explain some of the weirdness and was a valued skill.

      My thought is that "bullying" now means "said something mean to me once". Whereas I think of it as the daily harassment of someone with constant verbal barrage, destruction of property, deliberate ostracism, demeaning and devaluing comments about the victim, and physical violence and irritation.

      You sure know a lot about fecal leakage and constipation. Fecal leakage? I couldn't even come up with something like this.

    54. Re:This is news? by azalin · · Score: 1

      You do know that the Muslims "Sky Daddy" as you put it, is the same one the Christians and the Jews pray to? It is mind blowing how much hate can come from so little difference and so much in common.
      Each and every religion (or idea) has fanatics, hypocrites and idiots. The is usually also a majority of decent people, but these tend to be less vocal.
      None of the major religions gets the "good guys" label. Given opportunity all of them condoned violent enforcement of their moral codes. The christian based countries are at this time in history more tolerant and open minded than others, but at that was the other way around not that long ago. Given opportunity and power I'm pretty sure some more fanatical christian subgroups would just love to put people in jail (or to death) for not conforming to their morals.
      The current problems the West faces with some Muslim countries is not based on religious principles, there are far better reasons. Religion is just used as a powerful weapon to channel hate and build a us vs. them common identity.
      Let's try a little thought experiment: Imagine all the countries in the Middle East to be some kind of Christians. Do you really think we wouldn't have the very same problems, only in a slightly different flavor?
      I am against violence and I am really disgusted by people using (any) religion to preach hate. Being it hate against infidels, women, gays, critical thinkers, different opinions or other religions.
      By the way, Atheists aren't completely immune either, because people tend to replace religion with ideologies that aren't much better.
      Moderation, compassion, tolerance, forgiveness and not turning of your brain might get us a lot further, than this us vs. them thinking.

    55. Re:This is news? by azalin · · Score: 1

      Longer ...

      Considering into how much trouble one could, by asking the wrong questions and pointing out flaws in the established teachings, I would say MUCH longer. I would guess basically since the dawn of human societies.

    56. Re:This is news? by tibit · · Score: 1

      +5 insightful. And what a story!

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    57. Re:This is news? by azalin · · Score: 1

      Actually the barbaric people have a huge advantage, because they are less impeded by moral codices. The will attack first, they will strike hard and they will fight to win. Being civilized is required to form large groups and holding them together. This has nothing to do with being smart or not.

    58. Re:This is news? by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 1

      Your thought experiment is usless. The argument that if Christians lived in the Middle East they would start to act like Muslims is bull shit on so many levels. First off Christians do live in those places. Secondly Christians are the ones being persecuted by Muslims. Third Christians worship Yahweh and his son Yehoshua (Jesus), Muslims worship Allah and his prophet Muhamad. Most importantly Jesus taught love and showed by example how Yahweh wants us to live. What was Mohamads example? Killing and stealing.
      http://www.islamreview.com/articles/godvsallah.shtml

    59. Re:This is news? by Crosshair84 · · Score: 1

      See, this is why I like you hairyfeet. You and I disagree on a LOT of stuff, and agree on enough to keep me following your posts, but I can't recall you ever deliberately equivocating or misrepresenting an argument of even people you disagree with. You''ve, in my view, failed to understand an argument, you're rejected an argument, but you've never played stupid and misrepresented it. Simplify for the sake of argument, sometimes imperfectly, yes, but misrepresent, no.

      Just adding a bit to what you said, not intending to actually debate the subject here, I don't have the time right now. So many people simply conflate people in the the intelligent design camp (You term them creationists, but not going to get make a big issue with that.) with the young-earth creationists. It's like saying French and Spanish are basically the same language because both use the Roman Alphabet. Some people do it out of simple ignorance, but the other practical reason is to avoid having to answer the scientific objections raised by those in the ID movement by claiming they hold their view because of their worldview and not because of evidence. (As if the same doesn't apply to Dawkins and his worldview.) It's so irritating because just a little basic reading would show the differentiation. To be fair, the Young-Earthers do try to hitch a ride with the ID movement, just like how Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons sometimes try to associate themselves with Christianity.

      "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle. Bravo to you for making the distinction even though you reject the view.

      As for Climate Change, I lean toward the skeptical side of man being the driving factor, but we both agree the "solutions" are little more than power grabs by the political elite and the privileged few businesses that have the right connections.

      Thanks for taking the time to slap down an obvious attempt at derailing the discussion.

    60. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, qortra is the one who was "losing" from the beginning when he failed to understand the link between anti-intellectualism and the strong belief in creationism that 14erCleaner was trying to make. I don't know why Awesome is doing such a poor job at making his point though.

    61. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Conservatism is about conserving what has worked in the past.

      Like sweatshops, trusts, and monopolies.
      Hey now, it worked out FANTASTICALLY well for "some" of the people involved.

    62. Re:This is news? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Well I hate hypocrites and straw men and appeals to emotion so i try my damnedest to make things as straight forward and logical as possible. And if you disagree? Please feel free to respond, as long as it isn't the usual emotional "You suck and have stupid hair!" and instead a logical explanation of why you think I'm wrong, preferably with citations, i am MORE than happy to debate any point. The wise man knows there is more out there than he could possibly ever know and I have no problem changing my stance when evidence, instead of just emotion or fanboi-ism, is presented.

      Hell I still get hate mail and death threats from the FOSSie crowd, and the occasional online stalker, just for pointing out that in the consumer and SMB sector where I work their product just doesn't cut the mustard. I just love when they call me their version of nigger, which is the ever present "Ur a shill!" when I was one of the FIRST to sound off that Vista had serious issues and Windows 8 is frankly unsuitable for purpose, if you don't have a tablet don't bother is what I'm telling folks.

      So thanks I try, I can't say I've always succeeded to completely keep emotion out, but I do try to be fair and keep an open mind. I know many get emotional or worse the "ballclub" mentality with a lot of subjects but I think of you just lay it out as a simple argument you can cut through the bullshit and look at the problem logically, and this is supposed to be a geek site, not the Yahoo! comments section for crap's sake, so we shouldn't have everything turned into those jingoistic "us vs them, if you don't think as I do you're a retard" crap that everybody goes to the yahoo! comments to laugh at. Maybe I'm wrong but I think we should at least strive to be above that, and approach things from a logical technical bent if we are gonna call this a geeks site. I mean what did politics and religion have to do with the subject? Not a damned thing, so just call out the bullshit simply and logically and move on, that's all you can do.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    63. Re:This is news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Political/religious issues have everything to do with this point. Politics is centered around the opinion of the masses so if 50% of people think women legally require burkas it's safe to assume that that 50% are either ignorant or not very smart. He's not saying that they are mutually exclusive, on the contrary he's assuming correlation and using that to illustrate his point. Religion and politics routinely go against science and fact for little reason other than the reality that the public is stupid, gullible and prone to very strong group based social catharsis.

    64. Re:This is news? by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      I prefer to call them regressivists. Or paleo-conservatives. They want to go back to the government of the late 19th and early 20th century.

  3. It's about forty years too late! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I waited nearly forty years for someone to recognize the existence and pervasiveness of this behavior!

    1. Re:It's about forty years too late! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had always thought it was common knowledge, here at least.

  4. yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    even in college i felt like an asshole for knowing more than everyone but then again i was cheap and went to a state college to save money so maybe at a more expensive school it's better...

  5. Idiocracy here we come. by penglust · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ma bring me my shotgun. Theres another of them their intlectuls on the front grass.

    1. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      WHOOSH.

      That was either the joke going over your head.

      Or the shotgun blast of rock salt heading towards your ass.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by jaymzter · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Ah yes, the perfect illustration of the reason why some may dislike "intellectuals". In two short sentences you managed to include prejudice, elitism, stereotyping, parochialism and get modded +5 to boot. Good for you.

      --
      If thou see a fair woman pay court to her, for thus thou wilt obtain love
    3. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i love you

    4. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When stupid people act stupidly, we just wag the finger at them and say "oh well, they can't help it, they're dumb". But when a smart person is stupid for a minute, they get the fifth degree, and are bullied by not just the stupid people, but by intellectuals as well.

    5. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Ma bring me my shotgun. Theres another of them their intlectuls on the front grass."

      All the more reason to seek power over such lesser humans by deceiving them, then ruthlessly strip them of power, wealth and rights.

      I understand the contempt the rich elites hold for the common man. Sucks that the rest of us may get caught in the blast radius, but there really is every reason to hate such low thug trash and to enjoy the revenge of fucking them over.

      There is literally nothing about such folk to arouse the least bit of sympathy. Why NOT outsource their jobs, tax them to destitution, and spend a few billion dollars convincing them to lick your boots because it's the will of Jesus?

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    6. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by penglust · · Score: 1

      Thank you.

    7. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by penglust · · Score: 1

      Wow, I'm feeling so put down. Should I have said something about Walmart shoppers instead. I'm truly sorry Mr. Anonymous. I bow to your superior intellect.

    8. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by penglust · · Score: 1

      I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say about my post.

      I am doing OK in life but I am far from rich. Quite the contrary, if I was willing to screw everybody who got in my way I would probably be doing much better than I am.

      My father is the son of an Alabama share cropper. My mother's father drove a delivery truck all his life. On both sides I have relatives that have gone to college and those that have not. To a one, if we had bullied others (growing up in the 60's and 70's) our parents would have given us reason to not do it again. I am still amazed because at less than 10, if I did something, my mother knew about before I could get home.

      I believe a working society should make opportunities for everybody. That does not mean the opportunities are equal but those willing to work should have the right to do so. Those not willing to work should fuck off and die. Those that just can't work for a legitimate reason should get help. Those with talent should, and are willing to work should be rewarded for it.

      There are dipshits at all levels. Those that bully because another kid is good at math deserve a special place in purgatory. Their parents, whether it is because they are oblivious or just at bad, deserve a special place in hell. Those that are rich and outsource to save a few bucks should be shot now.

      Yes, I believe this country is sliding into the realm shown in the movie "Idiocracy" and the angle of the slide is steepening. With the body of knowledge science has provided us, the fact that a single person believes the Earth was created 9,000 years (or whatever) ago is just fucking mind boggling.

    9. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      I think the accepted spell is "them thar"

    10. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by azalin · · Score: 1

      Being of questionable intellect, following to non mainstream dress code and adhering to lower than average hygienic standards is not required in order to shop at Walmart, but it seems to be encouraged. So... Paper or plastic bag for your head?

    11. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why NOT outsource their jobs, tax them to destitution, and spend a few billion dollars convincing them to lick your boots because it's the will of Jesus?

      So your solution is to exacerbate the problem rather than attempt to remedy it?

    12. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by penglust · · Score: 1

      I accept your correction.

    13. Re:Idiocracy here we come. by penglust · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a Republican.

  6. Seriosly survey! Believe me! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm the most modest child there is, please dont bully me!

    1. Re:Seriosly survey! Believe me! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They will just bully you for being a "prude". What is wrong with modest clothing?

  7. So? What's new? by DogDude · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How is this news? I would wager that humans have been acting like this for many thousands of years. The only people who should find this surprising are people who grew up somewhere away from all human contact,.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
  8. I did the opposite in school by MpVpRb · · Score: 1

    All the kids hated and insulted me

    So, I made friends with the teachers and school administration

    Concentrated totally on academic excellence

    Totally ignored the other kids

    1. Re:I did the opposite in school by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That works up to a point... however, the other kids are a 24 hour issue, while teachers are just in the class. Schools are a lot like prisons/jails, and the same lessons apply on both fronts. The first mistake is assuming you will get protection from the guards/teachers. They have their own interests at heart -- not yours. One learns they have to keep some type of relations with genpop/other students if they are willing to survive. The kids that just are friends with the teachers will be protected in class, but just wait until outside. That bus camera covers the inside perfectly, but once it leaves from a stop, there is nothing but air and opportunity.

      It is just nice to be able to ride a bike to school and not have two popped tires awaiting you each day and every day, no matter how hidden the bike was. Same with driving -- it is nice to not have a vehicle that gets obscenities placed in the paint job via sharp objects, or a windscreen decorated with a baseball bat. Keeping the enemy list is a lot easier task than having to go "gee, I wonder who might have done that" in the school office.

      Here in the US, the smart kids learn how to play dumb. If you are viewed as "stupid", you might get razzed, but not hated. Where I went to high school, the smarter kids actually would graduate with low GPAs because they could get into colleges with their SAT scores alone, and being viewed as the class dunce was better than being the curve-breaker "A" student, thus causing jealously and the other drama that followed.

    2. Re:I did the opposite in school by anarcobra · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't the complete opposite be a school where the students compete to get the highest grade?
      That's what I did at my school. After a test we would compare each others grades to see who got the highest.
      We even had a teacher who would first grade the tests of the kids who regularly had high grades.
      That way the order in which he graded was kind of like a scoreboard for who had the best grades.

    3. Re:I did the opposite in school by pewterbot9 · · Score: 0

      "Teachies pretty boy" = homophobic slur. Typical bully ass-wipe. Oh why are so many breeders so stupid? Must be their genes.

    4. Re:I did the opposite in school by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Bullies can pick on everyone though. Stupid kids get harrassed just as much as smart kids. There are even smart bullies. The people who get picked on are usually those who are different and stand out in some way.

      Not all bullies are the same though. Some just want to establish dominance, and they'll pick on everyone, even mainstream kids. Others want to get a laugh from others by picking on someone they think others will laugh at. Others just like scaring people.

    5. Re:I did the opposite in school by ipwndk · · Score: 1

      Doesn't work.

      I tried that in the beginning, but as the other boys grew, they became increasingly voilent and physically imposing.

      Teachers thought my parents was beating me, when they saw me at gym. But the wounds and the scars was from the boys in my class. That just made it worse.

      It was impossible to avoid the assaults while participating in school activities, so I stopped coming after a period.

      It didn't help that I was physically unimposing, effiminate and revealed in having a relationship with another boy. (Which was removed from the school afterwards and rescued from evil homosexuality, while I got to stay and take the hate)

      I got no advice actually. Suicide seems a real option to many, and I've known people who chose that solution. But somehow I managed to keep on going.

      I find it hard to believe these fluffy initiatives against bullying. In my opinion kids are raised wrongly. In my opinion the expected behaviour of genders are erronous. It is evident in what other posts; they hit back. Thus they participate in a voilent culture, a culture some, including me, are not able to participate in.

      --
      01 REDEFINE REALITY.
    6. Re:I did the opposite in school by azalin · · Score: 1

      Smart bullies might even be worse than dumb ones. A smart bully can cause much more lasting and mentally damaging things to you with a lot less risk of getting caught. Physical violence isn't required for turning someones live into a living hell. It adds a nice classic flavor though.

  9. You're A Fat Paste Eater by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're a fat paste eater! Why don't you kill yourself?

    There, I said it.

    1. Re:You're A Fat Paste Eater by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a skinny food barfer. I am surprised you are not dead already!

    2. Re:You're A Fat Paste Eater by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a skinny food barfer. I am surprised you are not dead already!

      Wah! You hurt my feeling you big bully! Now my mommy is going to have to pay a fortune for counseling.

      I just want to cut myself and it's your fault!

  10. Government schools by Kohath · · Score: 0

    The place you go where no one cares about you.
    The place you go to get bullied into mediocrity.
    The place you go to be counted, so bureaucrats get their check for your attendance, regardless of whether you learned anything.

    1. Re:Government schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is a social issue, you moron. Private vs. public schools aren't a factor here.

    2. Re:Government schools by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      This is a social issue, you moron. Private vs. public schools aren't a factor here.

      FYI for our American friends: private here means public and public means private.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    3. Re:Government schools by YodasEvilTwin · · Score: 1

      Have you been to both types of schools? I have. They are wildly different, despite there being exceptions in both cases.

    4. Re:Government schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The place you go where no one cares about you.

      No one, anywhere, cares. Never have, never will. School at least beats out the false hope that humans care about each other.

  11. Hey I did that by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 2

    Which was unusual in that the person doing the bullying was the fucking teacher. (First grade believe it or not. Turns out she hated the smart kids. I'm fairly glad my mind won't let me remember what she did but I at least know she was cruel, nasty bitch.) Every grade after that I way under-performed.

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    1. Re:Hey I did that by Synerg1y · · Score: 2

      Ya... someone like that that early in life can really mess you up for years to come if not a lifetime.

    2. Re:Hey I did that by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I found out in college that you don't want to correct the teacher and then prove it mathematically. He was wrong about a crucial part of power supply design, but I quickly realized I should have kept my damned mouth shut and just gotten that question "wrong". It would have done less damage.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    3. Re:Hey I did that by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I found out in college that you don't want to correct the teacher and then prove it mathematically. He was wrong about a crucial part of power supply design, but I quickly realized I should have kept my damned mouth shut and just gotten that question "wrong". It would have done less damage.

      I suppose I was lucky having teachers who thought that having smart pupils meant they were good teachers.

    4. Re:Hey I did that by elashish14 · · Score: 1

      Well there's a right way and a wrong way to go about correcting people. I was in the same situation several times in my career and I quickly learned that one of the many wrong ways is to say to someone that they're doing it wrong and need to fix it. I found that a better approach to correcting others is to let them come to the same conclusion. An innocent way to do this is to ask how someone how reached a certain argument, or to present facts that seem to contradict their point and ask them re-derive their conclusion.

      Honestly the most effective way to prove a point to someone is to present it to them in a way that's memorable and fulfilling. That way they'll take it home and truly appreciate it. It doesn't work on everyone of course, but at least it will raise the percentage of battles that you win.

      --
      I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    5. Re:Hey I did that by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      Ha ha, I didn't run into one of those teachers until relatively late in High School... and to think that I gave my MIT application recommendation to her :P

      It wasn't until later that I found out that all of the smart guys had immediately transferred out of her class. (She was OK with genius girls, reportedly.)

      * didn't get into MIT
      * did get into another ivy-league engineering school that didn't require a recommendation from an English teacher at the time.
      * didn't get an approved absence to visit said engineering school because I had a D in her English class.
      * went anyway :P

    6. Re:Hey I did that by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      An anti-confrontation course my college ran (mandatory for all students) suggested using "I'm confused, help me to understand..." rather than just outright telling them they are wrong.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    7. Re:Hey I did that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For me it depends on the kind of error.
      If it's an obvious one, I don't say anything, because it's just a stupid mistake and everyone should notice.
      If it's something really bad that's messing with the rest of the explanation I might say I don't understand a certain part and ask them to explain it again.

      On the other hand I really don't care if students point out mistakes I make.
      I just accept it, say I was wrong, and correct it.
      For me it just shows that someone is paying attention to whatever I'm saying, which is rare enough judging from the lectures I've been to.

    8. Re:Hey I did that by akgooseman · · Score: 1

      I have no memory of attending 1st or 2nd grade. Evidence from my parents suggests that is exactly because of the teachers. Thankfully, they moved me to private school for 3rd-8th.

    9. Re:Hey I did that by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      Every grade after first grade you under-performed? And you're blaming your first grade teacher? Because you were too smart?

      Forgive my scepticism.

    10. Re:Hey I did that by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      That's basically how most technical interviews I give have gone. I give them a question, they work it out, and if they make a mistake I ask them to explain a part of the circuit again, or ask them to check it with a test case. I learn more about those that see their mistake, understand why it's wrong, and fix, it than those who get it correct from the start.

      I want even those that don't get hired to come away with a feeling that we're a company full of smart and nice people, and that they learned something and will be more successful in future technical interviews because of it.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    11. Re:Hey I did that by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Well there's a right way and a wrong way to go about correcting people.

      Hey, we should come up with some way to teach kids this. Maybe we should hire professionals who can teach lessons to them. We could call them "teachers!"

      Kids aren't born knowing how to handle social situations - they have to learn. If the teacher feels all offended that a 13-year-old pointed out an error they made, then they should work with them and their parents to explain how to better handle the situation in the future.

      However, for the problematic teachers, you're lucky if they even catch on that they're wrong in the first place. I had a science teacher who insisted that her aneroid barometer with a scale running from about 28-32 delivered readings in millibars, since aneroid barometers do not contain mercury. Apparently she gave my brother grief with her insistence that a whale's blowhole had no functional purpose. Books/etc were useless in persuading her.

      Then at the graduate level I had a professor who actually had a slight misunderstanding about some theoretical concept in his field, and when I pointed out the flaw and the logical consequences of it, he immediately recognized that there was a problem and adjusted on the fly. No doubt my own communication/social skills had improved in the years that separated these events, but a big part of intelligence is recognizing when you're wrong.

    12. Re:Hey I did that by tibit · · Score: 1

      I think I have zero tolerance for such behavior in teachers at any level. If someone tried to pull that one on me, I'd have no problem making them miserable until they apologized. They'd have had it coming.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    13. Re:Hey I did that by tibit · · Score: 1

      That's fine and dandy at work, but at school the teachers are actually supposed to be above average in their social skills as well as their educator skills. Well, that's in my set of good teacher requirements, at least. If the teacher gets upset about being wrong and being called on it, they shouldn't be teaching. Plain and simple.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    14. Re:Hey I did that by tibit · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the right way of doing it. Alas, teachers are not just some random interviewees. They are supposed to know better. Those who don't, don't have to teach.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    15. Re:Hey I did that by azalin · · Score: 1

      Oh and the right way includes not shaming them in public. Enable them to save their face by offering them an excuse, even though you both might know the truth. A question like "Is it possible that there is a typo in the script? I tried to do the calculations yesterday and the numbers just didn't work out. Would you mind taking a look at this to see if I made some mistake?" asked AFTER class works way better than a "This design is bullshit and I can prove it" during the lesson.
      Leave room for the challenged to accept his error (we all make some) without loosing authority and he might actually be grateful you prevented him from looking like an idiot.

  12. This Happened to Me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was in school I was too smart for my peer group, so I was ostracized because I didn't settle for underperforming. Being average is normal, and when you're not normal it frightens people. Especially younger kids who don't understand that it's okay to know someone smarter than you.

    1. Re:This Happened to Me by Kaz+Kylheku · · Score: 2

      No, it frightens "grownups" too. It's just that later in life you're segregated away from those people by your education, career, and your income: where you live, where you shop, where you go for fun and so on.

    2. Re:This Happened to Me by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 1

      You're just too cool for school

    3. Re:This Happened to Me by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 1

      Actually younger kids don't care about people being different. As they get older they start to notice. My high functioning Autistic son IQ over 140, had no problem until 3rd grade and we moved to a new school. All of a sudden the kids noticed he was different and life became a nightmare for him.

  13. Re:So? What's new? by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Informative
    --
    Palm trees and 8
  14. So what else is new? by msevior · · Score: 0

    This was standard behaviour in many schools in Australia in the 60's and 70's. I personally experienced it and witnessed it. Toughen up. The world is not all sugar plums and rainbows.

    1. Re:So what else is new? by Tacticus.v1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and 90s and 00s but the response shouldn't be to toughen up. it should be to take the fucking bullies and remove them.

    2. Re:So what else is new? by multiben · · Score: 1

      Just because something has always been the case some doesn't mean it's ok to keep doing it. We would still be stoning people to death for having mildew in their house. Society changes and so should its expectations.

    3. Re:So what else is new? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure it's not all sugar plums and rainbows, but you know, some of it *actually* is.

    4. Re:So what else is new? by YodasEvilTwin · · Score: 1

      I support postnatal abortion.

    5. Re:So what else is new? by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

      I'd be curious what some of these kids constitute as bullying, these days.

      I was one of the more intelligent kids in my class at a medium sized high school (most graduating classes were between 300-400 kids) and while not socially inept, I was quiet. Not once did I ever feel bullied nor did I ever witness any bullying going on. A side note, I was also one of the shorter kids in my class.

      That's not to say it never happened or that my school was full of angels. That was 15 years ago and I have a hard time believing the issue has gotten to the point where most kids feel bullied. With all the media coverage now, are jokes gone wrong and misunderstandings now considered bullying? I know there were a few times I said something that seemed like a normal part of the conversation only to realize later that it was rude and possibly mean.

      --
      "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    6. Re:So what else is new? by Tagged_84 · · Score: 2

      Being an Aussie kid in the 90's I can attest to the horrors of constant bullying. In year 10 I wanted out so bad I gave up hiding my tracks in circumventing the school's computer network, I'd been breaking into it for over a year by this stage, and started changing the teacher's passwords to speed up my discovery. Being expelled and having other local schools decline my entrance was the best thing that happened to me! No more having to worry about peers trying to light my hair on fire during science class!

      I still remember my amazement when first attending higher eduction, people actually respected my intelligence and welcomed my help!

    7. Re:So what else is new? by Dadoo · · Score: 1

      I'd be curious what some of these kids constitute as bullying, these days.

      As a kid who was bullied in school, I'm not sure where I'd draw the line. I'd hesitate to anything less than physical contact bullying (including cyber-bullying), but I'd say anything that requires a hospital visit is definitely bullying, and needs to be addressed. I know people who disagree with the latter, and believe students should be allowed to work it out, on their own.

      --
      Sit, Ubuntu, sit. Good dog.
    8. Re:So what else is new? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I was shot and was nearly sodomized, for example. Does that meet your minimum requirements?

    9. Re:So what else is new? by Tastecicles · · Score: 1

      yeah there were times when I wished thirtieth trimester abortions were legal...

      --
      Operation Guillotine is in effect.
    10. Re:So what else is new? by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      Happy to say toughen up. But if we are going to have a free for all in schools lets have a real free for all. If I had been allowed a level playing field with the bullies then bullying would have stopped pretty quick, at least for the six months they spent being fed through a tube. As it was I wasn't allowed to use violence on them (I did, but I was constrained as to how effective a strategy I could employ) because I was 'one of the good ones'. Either treat children like adults where harassment and bullying result in jail time, or let the smart kids settle things themselves with whatever implements they choose and if a few of the bullies get maimed or die, then I guess they should have been tougher.
      Personally I think treating children like adults is a much better system. You harass or attack another student? Six months in a specialised boarding school, no parental visits, no release until you meet certain minimum requirements, any behavioural problems extend your sentence.

  15. Both sides of the coin by Synerg1y · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A few things...

    Talent schools do exist, a lot of them are private though.

    Being in the top 10% of your math class doesn't make you a math prodigy.

    Smart people who act "cool" tend to get applause for their "talents" , not bullied

    Lifting weights never killed anyone in this age group (at least I don't think)

    Where the f' are the parents in all this?

    In life in general, sometimes it's better to fit in than be the nail that gets hammered

    If the kids actually cared about excelling in their subject of choice, they wouldn't care about being bullied, I can think of a chess person, and a chem person who are testaments to this from back in HS

    Last, but not least, AP Calc has yet to help me in life, AP chem... kind of :)

    1. Re:Both sides of the coin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I failed calculus in high school and I'm just so confused with all the calculus I encounter in my everyday life!

    2. Re:Both sides of the coin by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      Lifting weights never killed anyone in this age group (at least I don't think)

      Yeah.. no one dares to bully someone who outperforms in that...

      If the kids actually cared about excelling in their subject of choice, they wouldn't care about being bullied, I can think of a chess person, and a chem person who are testaments to this from back in HS

      How many unexplainable deaths did you have in your class before everyone realized that it's better not to bully the chem guy? and did you ever find out what that chess guy did?

      --
      bickerdyke
    3. Re:Both sides of the coin by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Mod up. Especially the part about lifting weights. The abuse trailed off my HS junior year when I got serious about working out.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    4. Re:Both sides of the coin by kwerle · · Score: 1

      Lifting weights never killed anyone in this age group (at least I don't think)

      I'm sure it did, but it's still good advice.

      Where the f' are the parents in all this?

      Although I have no evidence to back me up, I'm pretty sure that 9/10 parents are idiots.

      Last, but not least, AP Calc has yet to help me in life...

      Yeah, but didn't you enjoy it? And isn't it cool to know, in general terms, how those problems get soved - even if you never need to do so?

    5. Re:Both sides of the coin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A few things...
      Talent schools do exist, a lot of them are private though.

      So anyone who displays abilities beyond their peers should leave the school with the proles to go to the school with the other high achievers? I guess the correct answer is "if you're smart, better hope your parents are rich".
      Also, I was in the top 5% of my class in school, and the most valuable asset to my education was to get as much help as possible from the other kids who were way smarter than me. At the same time, I went out of my way to help others who I could. If you take all of the high achievers out of the environment, you eliminate the possibility of the lesser talented individuals taking advantage of their more capable peers. We should be encouraging this kind of knowledge sharing, not stifling it with violence.

      Being in the top 10% of your math class doesn't make you a math prodigy.

      I didn't see anyone try to claim that this was the case. The article is about people being met with verbal, psychological and physical violence for simply demonstrating talent. Nowhere in the article did anyone suggest that "Mr. Smarty Pants math whiz was taken down a peg for being an arrogant prick." You seem to be implying that this is the case.
      Conversely, being in the bottom 10% of your math class doesn't give you the right to assault your fellow students.

      Smart people who act "cool" tend to get applause for their "talents" , not bullied

      You clearly didn't go to the same schools as those who were surveyed, or many of the individuals who commented here. This is a real issue, it really happens, your sweeping generalization of what "tends" to happen run counter to the very relevant results of the survey.

      Lifting weights never killed anyone in this age group (at least I don't think)

      So are you suggesting that the solution to bullying is for the victims to lift some weights and bulk up? Maybe eat a protien bar? Do you realize that in most cases bullying is a many vs 1 scenario? As in, some number (>1) of bullys accosting a single individual while nobody (including teachers and administrators) is willing to jump in even when they witness the acts right in front of them?

      Where the f' are the parents in all this?

      Not at the school, not on the bus, not attending any of the after school activities where this is happening. Many of the parents are oblivious because the kids are too ashamed to admit it. Many parents who are aware have tried every possible tactic to get the school to recognize that their children are being abused every single day when they're supposed to be receiving an education. When the parent of the victim confronts the parent of the abuser, they often are met with the realization that the bully's parent is just as much of a bully as their child. When they attempt to involve the police, the issue is punted back to the school, which refuses to do ANYTHING at all.

      In life in general, sometimes it's better to fit in than be the nail that gets hammered

      Spectacular advice for the our young high achievers: "keep your head low kids, don't be too smart or too talented, we wouldn't want you to get hurt!" That's a great way to regain the competitive balance of our nation.

      If the kids actually cared about excelling in their subject of choice, they wouldn't care about being bullied, I can think of a chess person, and a chem person who are testaments to this from back in HS

      WTFBBQ!?? What does one have to do with the other? I like a good game of chess as much as the next Slashdotter, but if it's going to result in my being repeatedly punched in the face, I think I'll pass.

      Last, but not least, AP Calc has yet to help me in life, AP chem... kind of :)

      I'm failing to see the relevance, but I guess we're

    6. Re:Both sides of the coin by Synerg1y · · Score: 0

      Haha, wow, those are some right wing views you got there AC, more right than mine are left, I'd almost have to say... well get your kid a football helmet, some pepper spray (is this legal in school?), teach them to rat on their peers, encourage playing video games all day (no sports, no lifting weights), teach them not to stand up for their interests (not talents mind you), teach them that fitting in is for losers, and enjoy your trailer park. Your comments remind of me of those kids on a late night Adult swim show years ago that lived next to a toxic waste dump. P.S. The schools can't do shit because ratting = popularity insta death sentence in student society. Schools don't have spare $ to get sued either, remember that teacher who yanked a kid off the brooklyn bridge who was about to jump off and got sued for it?

    7. Re:Both sides of the coin by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      I did enjoy AP Calc, but it was hard as hell working on some of those problems and it's a bit of a let down to step into life and realize all that effort was for naught. I guess it helped with problem solving skills, but I can think of better ways. Also, I don't think it got far along enough to teach realistic applications of the math, and most of those are directly in the science field (I went to college for CIS and am a dev now).

    8. Re:Both sides of the coin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do you think that students should be required to lift weights if they don't want to be bullied? Including girls?

      We have an underlying problem here: that academic excellence is despised, while sporting excellence is admired. Telling a talented student that they should dedicated themselves to sports instead does not fix that. It just ensures that we have another generation of children growing up to glorify sporting prowess, without the educational background to do something that really matters.

    9. Re:Both sides of the coin by checho4 · · Score: 1

      Talent schools do exist, a lot of them are private though.

      Sounds expensive and out-of-reach for many students.

      Being in the top 10% of your math class doesn't make you a math prodigy.

      It does in the little world that is a 6th-grade classroom.

      Smart people who act "cool" tend to get applause for their "talents" , not bullied

      First impressions are difficult to replace though, especially in an environment (like middle school) where students want to fit in. If a student is labeled "nerd" or "geek" on day one, it's not easy to change the label.

      In life in general, sometimes it's better to fit in than be the nail that gets hammered

      "Fitting in" should not be a reason to NOT learn and develop though. Besides, in the United States at least, we're very big on promoting the "everyone is special in their own way" message.

      If the kids actually cared about excelling in their subject of choice, they wouldn't care about being bullied,

      If a talent keeps a student out of social cliques, that's one thing, but being put down day after day makes it very difficult to accept that the bullying may not matter in the long run.

      Last, but not least, AP Calc has yet to help me in life, AP chem... kind of :)

      This one I agree with. :)

    10. Re:Both sides of the coin by Dogbertius · · Score: 1

      This is the reason why in my family, we were taught advanced math and science along with military martial arts at a very early age. Think of the "300" movie, but academic studies were held paramount. Also, the legal notion of self defense and "never strike first" reinforced these teachings.

      Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, picks on the muscular brainiac who broke the school bulley(s) arm(s). I am really surprised more academics don't make an effort to excel in every facet of life (ie: build up the body, mind, travel and gain some culture and critical thinking abilities, etc).

    11. Re:Both sides of the coin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How did you have time to lift weights? I was too busy doing homework, reading, studying, etc.

    12. Re:Both sides of the coin by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      > Do you think that students should be required to lift weights if they don't want to be bullied? Including girls?

      I think there might be a number of answers. I'm sharing what worked for me.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    13. Re:Both sides of the coin by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      How did you have time to lift weights? I was too busy doing homework, reading, studying, etc.

      You just have to make time. Cutting out TV was a big part of it. And working out doesn't really take that long.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    14. Re:Both sides of the coin by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Incidentally, I've been a karate instructor since before my daughter was born. She started training in grade school, and by the time she reached high school, she was entirely comfortable with being a geek. Word got around and the bullies found others to pick on. Had my own training started earlier, it would have saved a lot of time.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    15. Re:Both sides of the coin by penglust · · Score: 1

      I believe you have a hard time telling your right from your left.

    16. Re:Both sides of the coin by captjc · · Score: 2

      How many unexplainable deaths did you have in your class before everyone realized that it's better not to bully the chem guy?

      I don't know were you went to school, but the chem prodigy in our school wasn't a vindictive murderer. He was the guy who made really good meth. Real premo stuff.

      --
      Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
    17. Re:Both sides of the coin by Greystripe · · Score: 1

      Haha yeah throw a kid over a table in front of everyone and they tend to leave you alone after that. Funny thing is though I never once felt I was being bullied for being smart (aced nearly every test, always scored in the 99th percentile on standardized tests). I was bullied for being poor, quiet, and oddly for never running. Being smart is rarely the reason people are bullied, more often it's some social stigma. You look funny, have poor social skills, have a superiority complex, etc. Easier to feel good about yourself if you can tell yourself it is because you are smart.

    18. Re:Both sides of the coin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was talking the most advanced courses my HS offered and was doing good at them. If anything I did not fit in with most of the kids in those classes. In my experience, you only got picked on if you were arrogant, snotty, or a misfit or possibly showed some lack of ability to socialize in a friendly manner or thought you were better than everyone else (like a lot of geeks seem to do). Your families income, if you did drugs or not, if you were a football player or a cheerleader, what classes you took etc did not matter to most people. This was in the US rust belt in the mid 80's, maybe things are different in other places then and now.

    19. Re:Both sides of the coin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wasn't that big on physical fitness, but having a tough as nails hardass P.E. teacher, you ended up tough by virtue of that. At least that's how that worked out - provided you'd give effort on that end. Even then there'd be some bullying as the bully types would often work out more. In turn bad fights would end up being more brutal because of it, even if they happened less often.

      What seemed a lot better at stopping bullying is a bit of social engineering. You find out how to help others for your own benefit and who is likely to be most useful to help out. Sometimes you don't bother to help out the thug-wannabe classmate, but rather a sibling, cousin or close friend and that still works out too.

      During my time in high school, there were enough students that cared about the college track. Even athletes. (Not all jocks are that dumb, a few were in AP classes. Yeah, they broke the stereotype - deal with it.) So when I finished my own homework during lunch or study-hall, I'd help them out with their studies. (Doesn't mean I'm trying to be buddy-buddy with them and hang out, just doing a bit to help and keep busy until the next class starts. At least it was something to do if I wasn't napping.) Turns out fellow students would realize you're useful if their grades went up enough to be passable. After that and word gets out, other people usually have your back and the bullshit stops.

      Oddly enough, I was "useful" to some teachers for the same reason. Not all teachers could explain things well, but likely still wanted certain students to pass because of how administrative politics worked at the time. Most teachers didn't give me shit if I did enough homework and passed the tests. If I did ok otherwise, it didn't matter much if I was napping in class or whatever.

      Not every socially awkward nerd gets that, but sometimes paying attention to which fellow students are actually trying to get better grades pays off. Maybe I wasn't quite as socially awkward as I thought? I guess it'd still suck if you were in a school where too many people were shit-for-brains, but in my case I was lucky to have enough peers that gave a damn about their future and it turned out that was useful on my end. Doesn't hurt to try at least, so YMMV.

    20. Re:Both sides of the coin by tragedy · · Score: 1

      Lifting weights never killed anyone in this age group (at least I don't think)

      Yeah. Lifting heavy metal objects up over your head/throat/chest never killed anyone. Except for, you know, all the people it has killed. There's a reason you're supposed to use a spotter and that they design weight benches that way. It's not an incredibly dangerous activity, but it most certainly has killed people in that age group.

    21. Re:Both sides of the coin by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 1

      Yep, beat the shit out of the school bully at age 12, got a rep and never had to lift a finger again. He always made sure anyone new to town knew how tough I was, I think it made hom feel better to believe he got beat by a bad ass.

      I think I got lucky but it worked.

    22. Re:Both sides of the coin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You were lucky to not have bully packs. Nobody picks on that guy, except for an overwhelming force.

    23. Re:Both sides of the coin by tibit · · Score: 1

      And, obviously, none of his buyers ever got addicted, and none have ever died due to their addiction (whether in school or later in life). I have a problem with believing that, but maybe you wanted to say something else :)

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    24. Re:Both sides of the coin by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      this gets bonus points if the girl tends to wear Ballet styled stuff (or actually Dances)

      Bad: the other Pack Members find out you got your arms/legs/ect busted by a Girl half your size
      Worse: She was wearing a tutu at the time
      Worst: She looked GOOD doing it

      tweat from cdarwin: @SKoolBully here is your award

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    25. Re:Both sides of the coin by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      She has a collection of tutus which she incorporates into her daily dress, but in more edgy fashion, with belly shirts and faux hawk. (It's an art magnet school with no real dress code.)

      I've had to get used to her mode of dress (seems way to skimpy to me, but I suppose all dads say that) but I'm a little old-school regarding self-defense, probably because I was picked on in high school. Early on, I made it plain that if she's defending herself or a friend, I will stand up for her no matter what. But if she hit someone and it wasn't in self defense or the defense of others, she'll have to deal with the school *and* with me. So far it's worked out -- she had two incidents early on, was cleared both times, and then nothing after that. I don't remember if she was wearing a tutu at the time, but it's possible. :-)

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    26. Re:Both sides of the coin by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      Why's that? I believe people who write 1 sentence stating an ignorant opinion because they don't know wtf they're talking about can't tell anything apart from anything.

    27. Re:Both sides of the coin by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      Here ya go buddy:

      There's more than 1 type of weight

      Now you can start lifting weights too, no excuses! Based on your logic however, stoves killed people in the past I'm sure, don't use stoves! (everything requires at least a little bit of common sense / knowledge to use)

    28. Re:Both sides of the coin by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      I blame TV & the Internet... speaking of which, there's some pretty good cat videos on this internet thing.

      Seriously thought, body and mind require a MASSIVE amount of time to train together and ya people don't f' w you after. In fact, in pro sports a lot of people have made the hall of fame for their smarts on the field that lead to numbers.

      Also, not all families are created equal, you seem to have been raised by an exceptional one.

    29. Re:Both sides of the coin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In high school, my classmate and I started our schools AP Computer Science program... although fun for being a two person class with no teacher, it was less than useful in college. In fact, completely useless. It let me skip a class that I would have also been able to skip by taking a placement exam in college. And it was one of the last years before AP CS switched from C to Java. Given that the class I was able to skip AND the subsequent class were taught in Scheme... useless.

    30. Re:Both sides of the coin by tragedy · · Score: 1

      Sorry, when did I say people shouldn't lift weights because there's some small danger? I was just pointing out that "Lifting weights never killed anyone in this age group" is kind of a ridiculous statement. Heck "X never killed anyone" is kind of a ridiculous statement for a pretty huge variety of items X. I wasn't making some sort of argument against weight-lifting, I was just being pedantic.

  16. Adults too. by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 2

    In a work environment, just as in school, you get along by pretending to be like everyone else, and as dumb as everyone else, particularly your managers. Lip service is always given to tolerance, but lip service is all it is.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    1. Re:Adults too. by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      You must be from corporate America! Sup bra!

    2. Re:Adults too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In an out. It's not much different in small businesses except that there you have to pretend to be as dumb and sociopathic as the owner.

    3. Re:Adults too. by mlts · · Score: 1

      Schools are a microcosm of life. Someone obviously brighter or sticking out brings out the "OMG, threat" response in others.

      This is why some of the smartest people I know coming out of high schools [1], tend to be able to pretend like they are morons. This is a survival trait; pretending to be dumber than dirt means that others go after someone else. Someone who is perceived as a dumb stoner (without being nailed for possession, obviously) will likely have a less chance of a vandalized car than someone who ignores peers and only interacts with teachers and admin staff.

      The problem then becomes turning off the "dumb mode" when it comes to college interviews, where one needs to prove that they should be allowed in.

      [1]: These days, a good option that a very smart high school student stuck in US public schools can do would be to take the SAT, get a good score, then drop out of HS, and get a GED and the HS equivilency.

    4. Re:Adults too. by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      I frequently tell my boss she's stupid. She employed me for my technical expertise; Agreeing with her stupid decisions would be counter productive for both of us.

      She also frequently tells me that I'm stupid. She is employed for her managerial and academic skills, and when I try to make assumptions about how teaching should work she promptly tells me I'm being an idiot.

      Capitulation leads to stagnation. As long as you can admit when you're wrong, it's not a bad thing to tell others when they are.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    5. Re:Adults too. by MasterOfMagic · · Score: 1

      As summarized humorously in this classic MTV commercial.

    6. Re:Adults too. by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      Good point. This has been around forever.
      I didn't get outright bullied in school for being "smart" (I was/am no genius by any measure, but I was in the top tier classes all through high school and not a jock), but mostly I worried about being perceived as cool, as for some reason, cool has never been exactly equated with smart in that cultural setting.
      Honestly though, that was probably more my fault and my perception that I would be unpopular unless I did certain things. I used to draw raunchy cartoons of the teachers and stuff, and in retrospect, that brought me a fair amount of popularity. After school, when I got into music and joined my first band, I wound up in the company of some of the toughest "cool" kids from school who thought I rocked, and for some reason, I felt like I'd accomplished something; even though I was deliberately dumbing myself down. I'd alter (simplify) my vocabulary and topics of conversation just to fit in better. Later I realized I never needed to do that. Or maybe by then they'd just grown a little more mature. Or both.
      But I really would've thought in this day and age things had gotten better, as "geeks" are far more trendy now than they were in the late '70s when I went to high school.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    7. Re:Adults too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Careful, now... You might be diagnosed with Multiple Personality Disorder (or Schizophrenia) when you put on that alternate persona when needed. Better get you on meds.

      I kid, I kid.

    8. Re:Adults too. by mlts · · Score: 1

      It isn't MPD... just call it a type 2 mental hypervisor.

  17. Thankyou... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ever so much Conservatives and Republicans for you constant berating and demonizing of anything intellectual.

    1. Re:Thankyou... by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      As a counterpoint to this post, most of my extended family are evangelical Christians on the right of the America political spectrum, and are uniformly more intellectual and better educated than society at large (including degrees from MIT, Dartmouth, Cornell, Princeton, Middlebury. I think Yale and Colby are on that list too, but I'm not 100% sure). On the other hand, growing up in Vermont, 90% of the people who bullied me in high school were as lefty as could be.

    2. Re:Thankyou... by Yosho · · Score: 1

      As it turns out, however, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Here are some actual statistics about the correlations between education, political affiliation, and religion: http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2012/02/why-america-keeps-getting-more-conservative/1162/

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
  18. Should I try to be a straight 'A' student? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you are then you think too much.

    -- Billy Joel, 1980.

    Same old shit, different generation (note that it was B. Joel saying that in the song, but his peers)

  19. Opposite of Asia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In Asia, overachievers and well-studying kids are looked up to. While that still doesn't make them the 'cool' kids, they do just fine socially and have no such problems as TFA.

    I suggest North American culture change its stigma of nerds, geeks, and intelligence, or face vastly deteriorating social values and social/scientific progress.

    1. Re:Opposite of Asia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Asia, overachievers and well-studying kids are looked up to. While that still doesn't make them the 'cool' kids, they do just fine socially and have no such problems as TFA.

      Mod up. The ones that do well academically are very popular in social circles.

    2. Re:Opposite of Asia by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as being an overachiever. There is, however, on the other side of the fence, such a thing as having an inferiority complex.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:Opposite of Asia by Kergan · · Score: 1

      The grass is always greener next door... Here are two proverbs FYI. One Japanese; the other Chinese:

      The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.

      The bird who sticks his head out gets shot.

      In all seriousness, you cannot rub away thousands of cultural standards that puts the collective over the individual. Not over a generation anyway. They stem from geography. Like in other regions where civilizations developed in river valleys, you couldn't chop down the nearby forest and grow crop like you could in Europe. Instead, you needed large-scale organized labor to maintain irrigation channels, rice terraces, etc.

      China's cultural imprint is even more entrenched than the rest of the area, btw: Confucianism stops at nothing short of praising bureaucratic submissiveness to the ruler. So much so that the Maoists ultimately embraced its key ideas.

      Oh, sure, you'll naturally find the odd exception here and there in highhly westernized and elitist schools, and the odd political activist. Blah blah. There are over a billion Chinese.

    4. Re:Opposite of Asia by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      I wonder if it was in anyway linked to the public service exams from China - your social status, salary and job were all defined by how well you performed on the Public Service exam. IIRC you could retake the exam annually to move up in the ranks, but risked moving backwards.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    5. Re:Opposite of Asia by pewterbot9 · · Score: 0

      You wisely stated: "I suggest North American culture change its stigma of nerds, geeks, and intelligence, or face vastly deteriorating social values and social/scientific progress." Well said. Zero tolerance of homophobia will go a long way towards that excellent goal. In fact, it may be the most important solution of 'em all.

    6. Re:Opposite of Asia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who grew up in Asia, I always find it funny when Westerners mis-understood Chinese proverbs. Your second proverb actually applies more to being a dissident, i.e. doing things that the established authority do no want, so they pick the most high profile ones to make examples. The proverb never applies to doing things promoted by authorities, which includes excelling in your studies.

      For Westerners who really want to see how asians children view other well-studying kids, I recommend the movies "I Not Stupid", and "Ojuken".

      School yard bullies in Asia very rarely targets the academically high achievers, for the simple reason that teachers will often side with those with higher grades (yeah, that's not fair), so bullying them just make it worse for the bully himself. Not to say that teachers in Asia have good ways to deal with bullying, but suffice to say that if you bullied a favorite high grader of a teacher, that teacher have many ways to make school life difficult for you. The smart bully will pick other targets soon enough.

    7. Re:Opposite of Asia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where in Kyrgyzstan did you say you observed this?

      Oh, you meant East Asia, not the entirety of the world's largest continent. A well known Japanese saying goes, "the fence post that sticks up highest gets pounded down", referencing the cultural value placed on conformity. Underachieving alienates yourself, overachieving alienates others. Neither are considered favorable.

        It's nice to hold ideals, but don't neglect reality, either.

    8. Re:Opposite of Asia by circletimessquare · · Score: 2

      yes, overachievers are respected in the east. but bullying is just as strong in the east

      so who is bullied?

      the misfits

      stupidity is the rallying cry of the western bully. conformity is the rallying cry of the eastern bully

      and i will assert to you that the misfits hold more of the keys to cultural, political, social, and technological advancement in society than a mindlessly conforming unoriginal egghead

      furthermore, we'll just wait for the asian eggheads to come to the west:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/world/asia/wary-of-future-many-professionals-leave-china.html?pagewanted=all

      the west has problems, but let's keep some perspective here: china has no political freedom. those smart enough and rich enough to flee, do

      for all the west's problems, we have a well-entrenched respect for the individual and political expression. as long as the west has that, our governments will be a lot more stable than in the east. a government has to rule by consensus, not fear, or it's time on this earth is limited. when china's economic growth cools in the long term, watch the real fun begin

      i honestly believe eastern emphasis on conformity (aka "harmony") is far more deadly to social advancement and stability than the west's championing of the stupid

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    9. Re:Opposite of Asia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OP here. Interesting points you make, about the conformity and how it is just as essential to denying social advancement / stability.

      I mainly was thinking of the eastern asian nations that have democracy - Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan.

      But, right - let's not ignore 1.2 billion people, eh ?

    10. Re:Opposite of Asia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's best to solve why students lash out.

  20. Not surprising by Oxdeadface · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Here's a small collection of recent headlines:

    The Election is Over, and the Math Geeks Won.

    Obama's data geeks have made Karl Rove and Dick Morris obsolete

    The Real Election-Day Winner? Math Geeks.

    Math nerds score big wins with superstorm Sandy, Obama victory

    A library datebase, not just for science nerds

    This is only from recent events, but the same type of headlines are repeated all the time. Why the hell would any child want to be good at something that puts them into a category that is openly disdained in our culture?

    1. Re:Not surprising by jtnix · · Score: 2

      The only problem with those headlines is the repeated use of the usually derogatory terms 'nerd' and 'geek'. Believe me, the media is not helping in this case.

      Why did they not use terms like 'whiz' or 'genius' I wonder? Oh, because they're the jackhats that make most of their money from thuggish american sports and their C average constituents.

      --
      She blinded me with science, she tricked me with technology. ~ Thomas Dolby
    2. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad these math guys aren't working on this economy.

    3. Re:Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is only from recent events, but the same type of headlines are repeated all the time. Why the hell would any child want to be good at something that puts them into a category that is openly disdained in our culture?

      It's all about balance (and that's not a math joke).

      Take away the fuel for disdain and you have a smaller group of similarly-minded people with a need to prove dominance[1]. Less release of negative emotions and chemically-balancing actions leads to more buildup of aggression and lashing out.

      Just like masturbation is a solution to sexual want (temporarily), having another entity to attack verbally and mentally solves (temporarily) the desire to attack others physically.

      Some places have better control over the mass population's mind and therefore have a more controlled environment with more mental battles than physical/sociological ones. Others let people think freely and the polar opposite sets in - desire to think everything is out to get you; gobble up everything you can to maintain dominance.

      Just an appetizer for food for thought.

      1. Reference: See Religiously and Politically Restrictive Countries and Territories

  21. Career paths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More often than not, the bullies had well-paying union jobs lined up for them as soon as they reached the age of legal drop-out or barely graduated.For those who got screwed out of college and had to "avail himself of American opportunities", life was made much harder.

  22. Young students? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This happens at all ages. I'm a bit of a polymath and hyperactice, in that I've done many things successfully in life, including athletic, artistic, political and intellectual tasks. If I mention every time that is pertinent that I've done that people soon label you a know it all, so you just learn to zip it up.

    1. Re:Young students? by newcastlejon · · Score: 2

      A little humility goes a long way. Not too much, mind you, otherwise it ends up being only marginally better than bragging.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    2. Re:Young students? by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      Even majoring in computer science, I couldn't really relate to my peers on anything academically related. It was bullying, or even really resentment (as far as I could tell). But there was a social barrier, because I couldn't convincingly participate in any conversations about "that hard test" or "hard professor", etc.

    3. Re:Young students? by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      *wasn't bullying.

    4. Re:Young students? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course a little humility is always called for.

      The point is that they demand a lot of humility. In a situation where any other mediocre person could and would interject and say "I've done that too and it was fun" I can't do that since people think I'm bragging. Same comment, same situation.

  23. As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Merit is, itself, offensive."

    Showing talent intimidates the talentless. They defend themselves against the feeling of deficiency by attacking those with talent. It is basic human psychology.

    Don't want your kid bullied? Don't send him/her to a public school.

    1. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by saveferrousoxide · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Riiight....cuz no one was every bullied at a private school...

    2. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by rockout · · Score: 1

      I will say this, I definitely received less bullying at a private school than I believe I would've at the local public school. I never felt like I should underperform in order to fit in better or to avoid bullying. Even at a young age, I understood that the (minimal) bullying I was subjected to was just a manifestation of jealousy, even though I didn't fully understand those words or concepts at that age. In my neighborhood, playing wiffleball with the kids on my street, that was a different story. There was a huge difference between that and my school. I was, in fact, grateful that I didn't have to go the same school as those kids, because I believed then (and now) that the bullying would've been worse.

      --
      I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
    3. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by xaxa · · Score: 1

      Riiight....cuz no one was every bullied at a private school...

      I went to a private school (a relatively cheap one, as these things go).

      There wasn't much bullying. The teachers tried to deal with it, they have more time and a less-stressful environment than in a public school, and the parents care too, which really helps. It was good to get top grades, though some children got a bit envious of the ones that didn't seem to have to work for them.

      Thinking back, I got bullied by the male sports teachers for a while. I was the smallest, skinniest boy in the class, and hated the muddy-field kind of sport they did (rugby, football, running). Those teachers were arrogant pricks, all ex-professional sportsmen, probably no formal teaching qualifications. I got on fine with the only female sports teacher, who was a genuinely successful athlete (ex Olympic team, came 4th in her event). She didn't have anything to prove. Once my parents realised the trouble was more than me not liking rugby, they wrote to the school and the problems pretty much stopped, although those teachers were never nice to me.

      I imagine it could be worse (maybe a lot worse) at a boarding school, or a religious school.

    4. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody got shot at the private school my kid went to.
      The worst bullies were the Teachers.

    5. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was bullied the most at a private Catholic school in Kansas City. At my public highschool... not at all.

    6. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by jc42 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I will say this, I definitely received less bullying at a private school than I believe I would've at the local public school. I never felt like I should underperform in order to fit in better or to avoid bullying.

      It might be interesting to read about a comparative study of bullying in private vs. public schools. I've had friends who went to both, and from that small sample, I'd guess that there's not a lot of significance to the public/private labels. It depends on the people running the school.

      I got sent entirely to public schools. But I also learned at an early age to make friends with the school's authorities, and mention the bullying topic to them when there were opportunities. There were usually adults around who were interested, and wanted to help protect the kids. On several occasions, I and a few other kids worked with the cooperative adults to "entrap" some of the bullies, by enticing them into physical attacks when there were adult witnesses in a position to watch. There were interesting effects when they then reported the incidents to the bullies' parents and to the local legal authorities.

      But this doesn't always work. As others have mentioned, sometimes there are no adults in a school who care, and sometimes they're even bullies and/or molesters themselves. It can be sorta difficult for a child to handle such situations successfully.

      I did have one friend who ran into this in a private academy, where the local legal authorities were even unwilling to get involved with the school. After a couple of years, his parents understood the problem, pulled him out, and he did a lot better in the local public school.

      (British readers should swap the terms "public" and "private" in this discussion. It's an interesting different between the dialects of English. ;-)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    7. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I will say this, I definitely received less bullying at a private school than I believe I would've at the local public school. I never felt like I should underperform in order to fit in better or to avoid bullying.

      Then you were lucky. I was terrorized at private school. Once I switched to public school, the bullying didn't actually stop, but it got down to a level I could deal with and eventually learn to defend myself against. As someone further up the thread noted, it's a whole lot harder to get the administration to deal with problem students when their parents are writing the checks. There's a class issue at work here too--my parents were sending me to schools they really couldn't afford in the (mistaken) belief that I'd get a better education that way, and being a middle-class nerd surrounded by rich juvenile delinquents is really a special kind of hell.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    8. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      been to both. Public school is definitely more hell for someone of genius level.

    9. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 1

      It's not private versus public, it's the size of the school. Less bullying in a small school because of the cross-fertilization of clicks. No one is a stranger making harder to pick on someone. But don't be the new kid because you can't hide in a small school.

      Public school, 25 in grad class, K-12 with 21 of them.

    10. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by russotto · · Score: 1

      Showing talent intimidates the talentless.

      Unless the talent is in a team sport.

    11. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by fearofcarpet · · Score: 1

      Then you were lucky. I was terrorized at private school. Once I switched to public school, the bullying didn't actually stop, but it got down to a level I could deal with and eventually learn to defend myself against. As someone further up the thread noted, it's a whole lot harder to get the administration to deal with problem students when their parents are writing the checks. There's a class issue at work here too--my parents were sending me to schools they really couldn't afford in the (mistaken) belief that I'd get a better education that way, and being a middle-class nerd surrounded by rich juvenile delinquents is really a special kind of hell.

      For whatever reason, I was never really bullied in school. Sure, people said nasty things once in a while or made fun of me--but nothing like the systematic bullying that some kids got. Maybe it was because I played sports in addition to being a D&D playing, BBS-operating nerd. Ironically, the worst bullying that I ever experienced was when I spent a summer at a fancy baseball camp; some of those kids were just pure concentrated dochebag.

      I feel for you though, of all the things to get bullied for the social status of your parents is among the worse. Even at my crummy public school, the poor kids were picked on just for being poor. One kid was living in a crappy hotel with his mom and sister which, when it was found out, elicited daily pummeling with snowballs. I grew up poor too, but was fortunate enough to get new clothes from my grandparents frequently enough that I didn't look poor.

      I can't even imagine the devastation that mean-spirited kids can cause with social media... fortunately my own kid isn't old enough to worry about that stuff quite yet, but I have no idea what I will do if it becomes a problem.

      --
      Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
    12. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      Nowadays, with phone camera video recorders (put neatly into a shirt pocket with a convenient stealth hole) or at least using it as an audio recorder, should make things much easier.

      Just like that Casey Haynes incident a while back.

    13. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      re British readers, not quite right.

      Public schools in the UK are the "elite institutions", about 10% of the total number of independent schools. Independent schools are schools funded by fee-paying students, and are exempt from many regulations that state-financed schools must follow.

      90% of independent schools are designated "private", and 10% "public".

      Independent schools teach about 7% of children in the UK. The remaining 93% attend government-funded schools, most of which are called "comprehensive" schools.

    14. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by dkf · · Score: 1

      (British readers should swap the terms "public" and "private" in this discussion. It's an interesting different between the dialects of English. ;-)

      British public schools are just very very exclusive private schools. This terminology is just weird. The real equivalent of the US term "public school" is the UK term "state school".

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    15. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Errrr, no they shouldn't.

      Most English people don't distinguish between "private schools" and "public schools". The difference is only really of historical interest.

      In your post, they should substitute "state school" for "public school".

      Of course, as our unholy combination of a government is now talking about "privatising" poorly performing schools, it's going to get even more confusing.

      Oh, and English is not a dialect of English. USAian is a dialect of English.

    16. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody got shot/stabbed at the public school I went to, the one my siblings went to as well, even out to today.

      One example doesn't mean anything.

    17. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by ukemike · · Score: 1

      I will say this, I definitely received less bullying at a private school than I believe I would've at the local public school. I never felt like I should underperform in order to fit in better or to avoid bullying.

      Then you were lucky. I was terrorized at private school. Once I switched to public school, the bullying didn't actually stop, but it got down to a level I could deal with and eventually learn to defend myself against. As someone further up the thread noted, it's a whole lot harder to get the administration to deal with problem students when their parents are writing the checks. There's a class issue at work here too--my parents were sending me to schools they really couldn't afford in the (mistaken) belief that I'd get a better education that way, and being a middle-class nerd surrounded by rich juvenile delinquents is really a special kind of hell.

      On the other hand there are private schools that are oriented to academics instead of day care for rich shits who got expelled from other schools. I was lucky enough to go to such a school, Rowland Hall-St. Marks in Salt Lake. I was never bullied there. In the public schools bullying was a frequent problem. I felt perfectly comfortable being as good as I could be, which was really good in physics, and terrible in German. In fact my ability in physics lead to me helping others with the homework, and not a single person said a derogatory word when I took Calculus for the second time. If you can find a school like that, find a way to get your kids into it.

      --
      -- QED
    18. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I went to a private school in a bad neighborhood. I think the key isn't that the students are better, or that the teachers care more or are more competent. Rather it's the size of the student body. The school had preschool through 8th grade, that's 10 years worth of students. There were less than 300 students in the school meaning not only were class sizes under 30, but that was it you have thirty friends and *maybe* knew people the year under and over yours. I was picked on sure but in a weird way I was friends with the people who bullied me, kids tend to be stupid about gender and ages, meaning your potential pool of friends is about 15 people since everyone else is the wrong age or gender to be your friend.

      I think SCHOOL (not class) size is a key factor in bullying and violence in schools. Of course this is all anecdotal and based only on my personal experiences, so take with a grain of salt.

    19. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I definitely received less bullying at a private school than I believe I would've at the local public school

      Stopped reading right here, since you're obviously guessing, and don't know sweet fuck all. Don't add "knowledge" to a conversation when you don't actually know what the fuck you're talking about, and are just assuming that's how it works.

      Not saying I know if there's more or less bullying in one than the other, but at least I'm not conceited enough to think that I know both despite only having been to one of the options.

    20. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've gone to both, and it was night and day. Public school was all about fight or hide, hurt the other person faster. In private school I was elected to student council.

    21. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      But I also learned at an early age to make friends with the school's authorities

      I was a PITA to them, because I was bored out of my mind in school; I already knew what they were teaching. But I was friends with non-bully Eddie, whose dad was an Illinois Golden Gloves champion. My beating the hell out of an asshole who'd been trying to bully me in the 7th grade put a stop to the bullying attempts.

    22. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (British readers should swap the terms "public" and "private" in this discussion. It's an interesting different between the dialects of English. ;-)

      No, in Britain those two terms are synonymous. An amreican public school would be a state school in the UK.

    23. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by anyGould · · Score: 1

      It's not private versus public, it's the size of the school. Less bullying in a small school because of the cross-fertilization of clicks. No one is a stranger making harder to pick on someone. But don't be the new kid because you can't hide in a small school.

      Public school, 25 in grad class, K-12 with 21 of them.

      This.

      I can't say I've had the pleasure of private school, but my family moved around a fair bit and I've seen my share of schools of all sizes. Big-city schools have the advantage (for new kids) of constant turn-over - you're almost never the only new kid, and at the smarter large schools they mix/match the classes each grade (to prevent cliques of kids who have been in the same class for six years).

      But I'd say the size of the community is almost more important - my junior/senior high school had around 500 kids, but it was the only school in the town. It wasn't uncommon for kids to have shared teachers from grades 1 to 12, and being the "new kid" (and worse, we moved mid-year) made life... interesting.

      But in any school, there is the us/them dynamic. And the bullies will find *something* to bully you for - at least I never was in a school that didn't have bullies.

    24. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I was bullied plenty in a variety of schools. The bullying at the private school, St. Mark's School of Texas (one of the "best" in the state) was some of the worst. I was sent to detention twice for "spreading lies" by complaining about being beat up by other students (one, Jason Kohler, was the son of the superintendent). Eight students ganged up on me once, and beat me. I was finally expelled for hitting a student back in front of teachers after he hit me first (the teachers claimed that they didn't see the first blow, by Sam Smith, but saw me hit him back, and I was told that hitting, even hitting back, is not allowed). Though I wasn't technically expelled, I was just informed that my spot next year was no longer available, maybe they didn't want expulsions on their record. But the effect was the same, and with the timing, made it hard for me to get into the correct public school the next year.

      Eventually, I graduated from Talented and Gifted High School. And no, I wasn't bullied there. I thought I'd add, that, as I've already given enough for anyone with sufficient research skill to uniquely identify me.

    25. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3261351&cid=42046711

      Read my experience in private school. I won't copy-paste it, but it is a relevant response to your post. Incetentally, I was terrorized because I was smart, but not rich. When I was in 7th grade, back in public school people picked up on the "bully target" vibe. Nothing was ever done about bullying in those days, and I'd learned that reporting it gets me into trouble, not out of it, so the next time someone thought it was funny to steal my things and play "keep away" I ran at the person holding my thing, and when he threw it to someone else, I hit him. Hard. Knocked him down and silly (not unconscious, but certainly disoriented). I turned to the guy holding my hat and said "you next?" He threw it to me and walked away. I wasn't bullied again there. I probably couldn't have taken any single one of them in a fair fight, but when you don't play by the rules, you can usually beat any single person in a fight.

    26. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      There were interesting effects when they then reported the incidents to the bullies' parents and to the local legal authorities.

      That would get me in more trouble. He goes home and gets beat, and takes it out on me tomorrow isn't a good plan. The local authorities didn't care unless someone used a weapon.

    27. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I imagine it could be worse (maybe a lot worse) at a boarding school, or a religious school.

      There are almost no private schools in the US that aren't religious schools. Some are "non denominational" where they assume you get religion at home and they don't force it on you, but they are religious at least in name (I went to St. Marks School of Texas, which is about as non-religious as schools go in the US, where there are no classes in religion, but there is a chapel and regular visits to it).

    28. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by xaxa · · Score: 1

      Officially, the school I went to was Christian, but the students reflected the general make-up of the city. A bit under half were (parents were) either Hindu or Muslim, and the rest were mostly Christian or atheist, depending how much thought they put into answering the question. When I attended (10 years ago) I remember the phrase "Christian ethos", I think it was on the sign on the building, but looking at the prospectus now the first mention of religion is at the bottom of the last page, and starts with "...School was founded with Christian principles". (Surveys have shown that many, perhaps most, British people like the tradition of religion, but that's quite enough, thank-you very much.)

      There are some religious schools that are partly or entirely funded by religious organisations, and only accept pupils whose parents follow the religion. Those are where I suspect there's more bullying. I don't think intellect could make much difference, but sexuality (or perception of it) definitely does.

    29. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is more telling to look first at what a child has been instilled with prior to schooling. Both victims and aggressors display patterns of parental abuse that train them to respond to various roles. Rather than focus on the school, it is better to focus on the parents. Evil parents obviously bridge the gap between public and private schools, so children will too.

      Source for parental abuse role patterns:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMdht9K3CE

    30. Re:As Nietzsche so adroitly put it by nobodie · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but this is just not true. My son is a 4th grade (9year old) student at a public magnet school for technology and world culture. He is honored by the other students for his ability in math and science. They all want him to be on their teams, help them understand math concepts (and he is used by the teachers to go around and explain concepts to other students because he does it in a way that the other kids "just get"), goes to the math bowl, the science olympics and anything else he can get into.
      We live in a "transitional neighborhood" surrounded by black and hispanic kids who are in and out of our house in the afternoons unlike the other neighbors who send their kids to private schools and keep them locked in on the weekends because they are failing (wait for it) math and science and every other thing.

      It's not that my son is a genius, he has had some advantages in his education, but he is not bullied because of it, he is honored, by the teachers and the students in their own ways.

      --
      Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
  24. Playing down talent? by PPH · · Score: 1

    I prefer to think of it as hiding my secret identity.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  25. middle school and high school by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It was not until I left school that I had the freedom to show my true abilities and interest. In school, being good at something and God forbid, having it displayed by the teacher, was one of the asking.for.it criteria.

    No, that didn't stop me from being bullied entirely, but did take the edge off. Even getting chewed out over my report card when my parents knew my potential was a better result than the constant torment. And yah, some of the "popular teachers" knew how to be popular, some of the teachers picked on me too and I had no recourse because nobody believed me.

    It took 35 years to get over the bitterness, and learn to trust people.

  26. Re:So? What's new? by idontgno · · Score: 4, Funny

    Socrates' last words:

    "I drank what?"

    --
    Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  27. No Child Left Alone... by loony · · Score: 2

    made things a lot worse. When my oldest (who is actually good at math) went to school, he never got in trouble because he'd get some A's, a few B's and occasionally he'd even get an F... by now, math and other subjects are so dumbed down that any reasonably smart person gets straight A's - and suddenly you're being punished for being too smart... In the end, we need kids to fail more in every way.

    Peter.

    1. Re:No Child Left Alone... by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but segregating the lower end from the middle and the middle from the higher end (assuming you have enough kids in each grade to do this).

      Why hold back the top 25%, or pass on the bottom 25% to get them out of your way, and teach everything to the middle 50%? Put the top quarter and bottom quarters into their own classes, let the smart ones excel and move forward, get more help going for the lower ones...

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
  28. Good. Esp for India and China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Dearies, when I was growing up in India, I was very good in academics. Yes I was good in a number of extra curricular activities too, but acads were stellar. I was fit, but except for some recreational table-tennis, I was not much into competitive sports. Oh btw, I was a small kid in stature compared to others. Anyway, I was actually respected, especially because of the acads. And thankfully the culture has not changed much at all. Kids who are talented in sciences and acads, or other stuff, get respect, and are considered cool enough to hang out with - it's not the losers who sit around and are bulky that are considered cool (well, India being India, if the losers start getting physical, rest assured there are external contractors whom your parents can hire to take care of the matter quickly - and the losers know that too).

    Anyway - this is good news for India and china. At least their brainy kids would not be beaten up and turned away from studies by the idiots. No immediate worries of ending up as an idiocracy. I guess future generations of Indian and chinese kids will thank the prolific US 'cool' football and basketball stars for beating up the brainy ones and damaging them permanently.

    Good show USA.

    1. Re:Good. Esp for India and China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      " if the losers start getting physical, rest assured there are external contractors whom your parents can hire to take care of the matter quickly - and the losers know that too"

      So the problem in the US is really one of market overregulation...

  29. Relevant Freeman Dyson quote by StefanJ · · Score: 5, Informative

    This has been going on for a long time, and no, it isn't just public schools.

    George Orwell mentioned getting mocked -- by the headmaster's wife, for cripes sake -- for being part of a group that collected insects. ("Such, Such Were the Joys.")

    But the OA made me think of this Freeman Dyson quote:

    "So it happened that I belonged to a small minority of boys who were lacking in physical strength and athletic prowess, interested in other things besides football, and squeezed between the twin oppressions of whip and sandpaper. We hated the headmaster with his Latin grammar and we hated even more the boys with their empty football heads. So what could the poor helpless minority of intellectuals, later and in another country to be known as nerds, do to defend ourselves? We found our refuge in a territory that was equally inaccessible to our Latin-obsessed headmaster and our football-obsessed schoolmates. We found our refuge in science. With no help from the school authorities, we founded a science society. As a persecuted minority, we kept a low profile. We held our meetings quietly and inconspicuously. We could do no real experiments. All we could do was share books and explain to each other what we didn't understand. But we learned a lot. Above all, we learned those lessons that can never be taught by formal courses of instruction; that science is a conspiracy of brains against ignorance, that science is a revenge of victims against oppressors, that science is a territory of freedom and friendship in the midst of tyranny and hatred."

    -- From "To Teach or Not to Teach," 1990

    1. Re:Relevant Freeman Dyson quote by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1

      George Orwell mentioned getting mocked -- by the headmaster's wife, for cripes sake -- for being part of a group that collected insects. ("Such, Such Were the Joys.")

      That's okay, at my school the vice principal mocked a kid for wanting to learn math one grade above her level. In a speech in front of 100+ people, fully half of them students. Named the kid and everything, and said "I told her 'You can't do math!'" The woman seated next to me was so mad I think it was only fear of arrest that kept her from running to the stage and beating the VP with the mic stand.

      And the VP wondered why the nicest nickname the students had for her was "Conan".

    2. Re:Relevant Freeman Dyson quote by Macgrrl · · Score: 1, Interesting

      My senior year physics teacher used to regularly ask me what I was doing in his class (the only girl), and on of my teacher from the previous year repeatedly told me that I only needed to learn how to cook and sew. I was the top student from my year and the only girl doing the Maths/Science stream. This was in the '80s.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    3. Re:Relevant Freeman Dyson quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for this quote. It made me cry. I have dedicated much of my life to science, and never before had it stated to succinctly. It is freedom, and knowledge, and friendship, and cooperation, and the sweetest revenge.

    4. Re:Relevant Freeman Dyson quote by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      The best revenge is living well.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    5. Re:Relevant Freeman Dyson quote by deimtee · · Score: 1

      It went both ways back then too. I was interested in computers and took typing as an electve because I thought it would be useful.
      I copped a lot of shit for being the only boy in the class. This was also in the (early) 80's.

      --
      I'm guessing that wasn't on their radar screen...
  30. You may have heard of this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    from Herodotus, he called it Tall Poppy Syndrome. But hey no one on /. reads the classics anymore right?

    1. Re:You may have heard of this... by JustOK · · Score: 1

      I read the classics alot. I liked it before all this multiverse stuff.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
  31. Easy Fixed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I suffered the same fate, right up until about grade 8. Some little asshole pushed me to the edge and i stuck a pencil through his hand. Never had a problem after that. I found the only way to deal with these fools was to return their crualty 7 fold. and i dont mean stamp your feet and cry like a baby. or play push me shove you. Stand up, look them in the eye, Smile, and stab the fucker with sumthing sharp. Now i know there will be so many out there (especially these days) who will sya turn the pther cheek, dont be violent etc. etc. but the truth is the world is a violent place, and no matter how fake you want to be, how thick your rose coloured glases are this will still be the case in another 100 years. So simple. Use your brains and augment your existing inteligence with a pari of testicles. You will find soon you wont be worth bothering anymore. I used to attend boarding school, I remember building a stun gun form a motor start cap, mains charged. that soon stoped them in thier tracks. There is only so many times you can run to a teacher and still stand tall as you own man. dont sucumb to the sheeple way of life, where its always someone elses responsibilty to protect you. The Police dont care, The teachers dont care. hell i dont care. Getting a little roughed up at school builds character. and teaches you to defend yourself in the real world.

    1. Re:Easy Fixed by SleepyHappyDoc · · Score: 1

      I used to attend boarding school.

      Because you stabbed another kid and got kicked out? How much did your parents have to pay to put you in boarding school?

      Escalating violence isn't an answer...the zero tolerance policies these days mean that retaliating will just get your kid expelled, and you'll be forced into the poorhouse trying to pay for a private education.

      --
      Stasis is death. Embrace change.
    2. Re:Easy Fixed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it is. or so says the US military.

    3. Re:Easy Fixed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well when i was in school this PC crap wasnt heard of. I was suspended for the home made stun gun but thats all. It was well known i used to be picked on, I tried the dobbers approach. just nothing was ever done and it made me feel like a little bitch. so i grew a pair. I agree with your comment though, these days its illegal to stand up for yourself in any way. they expect you to act like good little sheeple and do nothing. just doesnt fly with me. If you pussies had it your way the only thing left legal would be work and TV. its almost like that now. I say stand up for yourself regardless of the consequnces. someone has to,. and if you survive you will be smarter and stronger person for it. no need to go running to the authorites, In fact it used to be an unwriten law. NEVER CALL THE COPS. only bad things happen.
      Just teach them to be smart about it, you dont have to jump up and stab the fucker like i did. But you dont have to sit there and take it either.

    4. Re:Easy Fixed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That might have worked 20 years ago but not these days. You do something like that and you're going to Guantanamo Bay as terrorist subject #827498237. Fit and tied, ready to be tortured.

    5. Re:Easy Fixed by pewterbot9 · · Score: 0

      "Getting a little roughed up at school builds character. and teaches you to defend yourself in the real world." Gee, if only Matthew Shepard and Gwen Araujo were still around to benefit from your wisdom!

    6. Re:Easy Fixed by Tastecicles · · Score: 1

      Naked force has resolved more conflicts than any method of diplomacy in history. That is a fact.

      However, that does not necessarily make it right. And sometimes people die.

      --
      Operation Guillotine is in effect.
    7. Re:Easy Fixed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for this.

      My dad gave me two rules. Do your best. Don't fight.

      School was hell, and I wound up in the hospital more than once. The bully tests your will to excellence. Some people fail that test. The bully tests your will to non-violence. Some people fail that, too.

      I did learn not to show off. I did learn to accept and love the thick among us. I later came to understand that most of the bullies I encountered came from abusive homes. I am glad I did not add to their unhappiness.

      Lower your performance, and you have lost your own self, and sold the world short. It's okay to be omega-dog for a while. It is a kind of service to society. And it passes. Kindness is a sovereign remedy.

      As I approach 60, the eight years of being bullied seems trifling compared to the rockets, the super-computers, the tokamaks, the railguns and high power lasers I got paid to play with. YMMV

      P.S. I told my kids, they were allowed to defend themselves, but mostly it's better to turn the other cheek.

    8. Re:Easy Fixed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So 'retaliating' will get YOU expelled, but the bully won't get expelled for attacking you in the first place? Right...

    9. Re:Easy Fixed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is why people grow up thinking that violence is acceptable. You had a bit of intelligence, and you used it to turn yourself into a monster. Good job.

    10. Re:Easy Fixed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Responding with disproportionate violence and foul curse words can stop bullying even if done just once.

      That's what I told my younger brothers, sure enough they had one violent incident each and then never again.

      It works. Listen to the AC GP if you want an enjoyable childhood.

    11. Re:Easy Fixed by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you sound totally well-adjusted.

      "An-eye-for-an-eye-for-an-eye-for-an-eye ... ends in making everybody blind." - Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    12. Re:Easy Fixed by SleepyHappyDoc · · Score: 1

      Yes, actually, it happens just like that. The bully will choose a time when the teacher isn't looking, and by the time she sees something going on, it'll be the bullied person acting, not the bully.

      --
      Stasis is death. Embrace change.
    13. Re:Easy Fixed by deadweight · · Score: 1

      I also did some things that I won't be detailing here, but all this stuff would have YOU put someplace really bad if you did it today. What I learned the hard way - you need friends and you need to regarded as dangerous.

    14. Re:Easy Fixed by deadweight · · Score: 1

      But 6 eyes, 12 balls, and a few dead relatives ends in people leaving you the fuck alone!

  32. To quote Chemisor (97276) by readin · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I think Chemisor (97276) said it best on Slashdot some months ago:

    To a nerd, acquiring social skills merely means learning that he can never mention anything he really cares about, and that he must learn to politely endure other people's boring rants without showing it. And then people wonder why he dislikes socializing.

    People don't get bullied for being good at soccer or for being good at art.

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    1. Re:To quote Chemisor (97276) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "or for being good at art"

      That really depends on the art

    2. Re:To quote Chemisor (97276) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think Chemisor (97276) said it best on Slashdot some months ago:

      To a nerd, acquiring social skills merely means learning that he can never mention anything he really cares about, and that he must learn to politely endure other people's boring rants without showing it. And then people wonder why he dislikes socializing.

      People don't get bullied for being good at soccer or for being good at art.

      Bleh... I was pretty much good at everything I did, got me plenty of shoves in stairs and was once almost hanged in gym class from a team band -go blue team-. If the background mentality on learning is "what you reading for" the kids pick it up pretty fast and anyone trying to excell at anything is suspect, let alone if it seems easy.

    3. Re:To quote Chemisor (97276) by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 1

      Maybe Chemisor should learn some better social skills rather than complain about other people.

    4. Re:To quote Chemisor (97276) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      People don't get bullied for being good at soccer or for being good at art.

      Really? Where I went to High School all the kids who were good at art were branded as freaks and were about as popular and the nerds. (I took advanced math, played saxophone, and painted. Every social group had a reason to exclude me.)

    5. Re:To quote Chemisor (97276) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've got that wrong. "People don't get bullied for being good at bullying".

      FTFY.

      AC

    6. Re:To quote Chemisor (97276) by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Yes they do. If you're different from the herd you can get picked on.

    7. Re:To quote Chemisor (97276) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To a nerd, acquiring social skills merely means learning that he can never mention anything he really cares about.

      I solved this by founding a computer club in the early 1980s. Suddenly I had plenty of people to talk about mutual interests.

  33. Wuuut? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One in 10 (12%)

    Hmmm...

  34. Some kids are bully magents by snsh · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Discussion of the bully issue usually avoids the fact that some kids are more prone to being bullied because they're sensitive, easily offended, or cannot handle self-deprecating humor.

    It all starts when you're five years old and a kid at school yells at you "I see your underpants. Ha ha!" If you react or protest or cry or run away, then the other kids will smell your fear and attack you like a pack of wolves. If you keep your cool or joke at it, then other kids show you respect. It all comes down to how you handle yourself in those moments.

    Anti-bullying crusaders dismiss anything that sounds like "blaming the victim". Instead they consider bullied kids as innocent bystanders, and focus only on the mean, misguided nature bullies, and how parents and teachers should to control them. But to fix the problem you really should look at each kid who gets bullied and show them what they're doing wrong.

    1. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Which is my answer was to beat my bully so bad that he went to a hospital. That ended my endurance of being bullied for the rest of my time at public schools... The retarded kids that bully only understand violence, so crack open their skulls and bite off their ears.. and whisper, "Im going to find you when you sleep and do things to you that make your mother cry"

      Raw fear they understand, and they spread the word.. From that point on they give you your space and dont dare to say a word.

      Ripping a kids ear off with your teeth does that. I reccomend it to all kids being bullied.

    2. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Similarly, very few people have the courage to examine the role rape victims play in being raped. Promiscuous dress and behavior attract rapists. People need to recognize that behavior of victims contributes to the attacks.

      Or you're talking out of your ass.

    3. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it'd be totally wrong to 'toughen up' the disruptive kids by inserting some seriously corrective discipline in their lives.

      Nice stawman to sidestep the discussion, dude. Thought I'd raise you one.

    4. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Lashat · · Score: 1

      It really should be this way, but that takes WORK on the part of those authority figures involved.

      I work everyday to ensure that my kid is neither bully or bullied. It's a tough balance. Give them the tools and instruction, the kids will use them.

      --
      For every benefit you receive a tax is levied. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
    5. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is textbook blaming the victim. What you're saying is that it's not the bullies fault that they can't in a civilized manner, it's everyone else for not accommodating them.

      Fuck them. And their parents.

    6. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Discussion of the bully issue usually avoids the fact that some kids are more prone to being bullied because they're sensitive, easily offended, or cannot handle self-deprecating humor.

      It all starts when you're five years old and a kid at school yells at you "I see your underpants. Ha ha!" If you react or protest or cry or run away, then the other kids will smell your fear and attack you like a pack of wolves. If you keep your cool or joke at it, then other kids show you respect. It all comes down to how you handle yourself in those moments.

      Anti-bullying crusaders dismiss anything that sounds like "blaming the victim". Instead they consider bullied kids as innocent bystanders, and focus only on the mean, misguided nature bullies, and how parents and teachers should to control them. But to fix the problem you really should look at each kid who gets bullied and show them what they're doing wrong.

      The good old "fight back and it'll be okay", probably why so many cases of bullying go on for so long. My experience was that once you started being "brave", it just got kicked up a notch. There are real psycos in classrooms who run the show and unless they get put in place there's no point in blaming the victims.

    7. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes the kid being bullied is inherently capable of handling the situation with a bit of education. That's not always true. It's less "blaming the victim", and more a strange notion that bullies can be handled by their victims, and their victims are somehow able to handle the situation more rationally and less emotionally than the bully does. As you say, case by case is the way to go, since not all bullies will stop just because their victim changes their ways.

    8. Re:Some kids are bully magents by taustin · · Score: 0

      "Promiscuous dress and behavior attract rapists. "

      In fact, not really, now. Rape isn't really a sex crime, it's a crime of violence. Castrating rapists only redirects their violent impulses in a different (and usually more deadly) direction.

    9. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'll bet you were a bully. You're certainly good at blaming the victims - and that has been typical of most bullies I've met.

    10. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, most people already know that a woman walking through a park, at 1am, in a mini-skirt shouldn't be all that surprised if she gets attacked. That doesn't make the attack wrong and does not excuse the attacker. The victim should also learn to not be so damn stupid.

      We're usually taught how to stay out of that sort of trouble. However, it seems pretty rare that we sit a kid down and teach them how to avoid being a target of bullies. That's what the parent is pointing out and shouldn't be mocked. I can't think of a single kid in school (of any age) who was being bullied and wasn't an easy target. Kids should be helped to learn why they are targets and how to help change their situation.

    11. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mostly agree with this. I was picked on from time to time, but never consistently bullied by the same kid. There were a few real assholes, but that had more to do with them and less with me (I wouldn't be surprised if those guys are now rotting in prison somewhere). My ears used to be too big for my head, proportionally, and I got called "dumbo" a few times. I would play along and say that I had better hearing and could hear everybody's secrets. I think most kids simply don't realize that they are being hurtful.

      The only time I ever got punched in school, it was actually one of my closer friends who did it just to be a dick. And I had "bully" types always asking me for help with homework.

    12. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      s/That doesn't make the attack wrong/That doesn't make the attack right/

    13. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That simply sounds like you're trying to justify being an asshole at some earlier stage in your life.

    14. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On an individual basis you sort of have a point, but on a systemic basis (school policy, etc.) this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

      So if all of the bullied kids are cool, you think bullies will simply disappear because they lack an easy target? I'm pretty sure the asshole instinct is stronger than that. I'm also pretty sure that aggressively targeting children exhibiting sociopathic behavior (before they learn to conceal it from the world) will help society drastically more than aggressively targeting overly sensitive children.

    15. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, way to blame a fucking five-year-old for not "toughening up" against abusive behavior. What you probably don't realize either is that in many cases it doesn't "start when you're five", the reason I was sensitive as 5 was because I was already getting bullied at home from an even younger age by parents and siblings. So go fuck yourself, asshole, no five-year old is 'responsible' for being a victim of abuse.

    16. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, just like rape victims, right?

    17. Re:Some kids are bully magents by SourceFrog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hmm, let's apply this logic to a few other scenarios:

      - An abusive husband likes to call his wife a 'stupid f-cking c-nt' and beat her, and you know what she needs to do (according to snsh), she needs to "keep her cool or joke at it, then he'll show her respect -- it all comes down to how she handles herself in those moments", you know.

      - Here's another one: An abusive boss likes to push and spit on some of the employees and call them stupid useless idiots. What they need to do, is keep their cool or joke at it, then the boss will show them respect. It all comes down to how they handle themselves.

      Does this seem stupid yet? It's bad enough when the victim is an adult, now you think a five year old should put up with it? Really? These actions are criminal when adults do them.

      --
      My other UID is three digits.
    18. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No. That is not what he is saying. He's saying that bullying is an interaction between two people. To understand the interaction we have to examine both participants and the behaviors they contribute to the overall effect. Our sympathy for the victim is natural and humane, but has no bearing on what's real and what isn't. Reality doesn't care about our human concepts of rights, fairness, and kindness.

      As a society, we've decided that a person has a right to be free of harassment. We also, in theory, have the right to walk down a dark alley at midnight with hundred dollar bills falling out of our pockets. But we can't be terribly surprised if we get robbed while doing that. Your right to do it has no bearing on the fact that people exist who will take advantage of your stupidity.

      Can we at least agree that, although the victim is morally blameless, he is, in a physical sense (i.e. through the principle of cause and effect), at least somewhat involved in creating the scenario?

    19. Re:Some kids are bully magents by sootman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Holy fucking shit, how did you get a single positive mod, let alone 2 or more?

      How was I, weighing 95 pounds my first day of high school*, supposed to react when the fat tub of shit asshole in my gym class decided to tackle me INDOORS onto the hard gym floor for no reason and knock the wind out of me? Fuck you and fuck him.

      What if I come to your house with a gun, and you're unarmed? If you act afraid, does that make it OK? And what if you stand your ground and I STILL shoot you? How would you like that?

      Tell me exactly what defensive options I had at 12 years old (or any age, really) against someone who is literally 50% larger than me. With friends present. Not ALL bullies fall into the bullshit movie-of-the-week "if you stand your ground, he'll respect you and leave you alone" category. In fact, I've never met one like that in my life. All the bullies I've ever known were just fucked-up cliquish assholes who never let anyone into their club.

      Typical scenario: bully comes up to you and decides to fuck with you. Option a: Act scared, get beat up. Option b: stand your ground, get beat up. I've seen it happen.

      Yes, kids need confidence, but thinking that being meek in ANY way makes you deserving of ANY amount of bad treatment is so totally beyond belief I don't even know where to start.

      What you're talking about applies to literally maybe 1/2 of 1% of bullies. Sure, bullies might be insecure assholes who need to make others feel bad in order for themselves to feel good, but they also usually have the size, the strength, and the friends (and, later in life, the political skills) to make your life miserable no matter what you do.

      * Private college-prep high school, by the way. Just because some kid's parents have money and send him to a private school doesn't mean he's a great guy. My school was roughly evenly divided: half the kids were pretty bright and their parents wanted them to go somewhere "better" than a regular high school, and the other half were bright kids that maybe didn't work so hard, or average kids that the parents were hoping to make smarter, thanks to tougher classes and stronger discipline. That is to say, it wasn't just full of super-bright kids who chose to be there and never bullied each other. And the ones who were assholes on the first day were still assholes at graduation.

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    20. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right it is the victims fault. Screw the weak, injured and less fortunate!

      You're an asshole. People like you are why I took many a punch in the face for outcast kids when I stuck up for them.

    21. Re:Some kids are bully magents by captjc · · Score: 1

      It is partly true. Make yourself an look weak and an easy target and you will be preyed on by those looking for a quick power trip. Give the bully a bloody nose once or twice and soon they will learn that you are not an easy target. Sure there will probably be retaliation and it hinges on whether or not you can seriously hurt them (and if you can't be prepared for living hell).

      There are always exceptions like gangs and psychopaths, but for that "one asshole who won't leave you alone," that is probably the best advice out there. I know they always tell kids to find an adult and have them deal with it, but that is just seen a sign of weakness. At that age some people only understand physical strength; sadly many people never grow out of that mindset. There really is nothing like a bloody nose to tell a bully to fuck off.

      Don't take shit from people and Don't ever start a fight. But if you are in a fight, always end it.

      --
      Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
    22. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rape isn't really a sex crime, it's a crime of violence.

      BS

      It's both. The idea that rape isn't about sex is a bizarre twist of intellectualism run amok. In most cases it is entirely about sex with a side dish of not caring about hurting others.

      These people will be violent even if castrated, because they don't care if they hurt others. But most of them don't rape because they want to hurt others, they just don't care if they do.

    23. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I think people skills do help with bullying. Either you find a way to avoid the bully, to get more students on your side, deflect the bully, adjust behavior to not stick out so much, etc.

      I don't think it's being smart that gets one bullied but it is just being different enough. Someone off by him or her self, not a lot of friends who would come to the defense, etc. That's why nerds get the stereotype of being bullied the most, already standing out from the crowd and with a group of unathletic friends as support and inadequate social and people skills for defense.

      Some bullies will pick on everyone at least once, or make sure to punch every freshman, etc. And that's where the people skills come in, to make sure it's only the once or twice and that the bully doesn't take you on as a pet project for the rest of the year.

    24. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Macgrrl · · Score: 2

      In a world where people truly respected the personal rights of others, your hypothetical woman should be able to dance through the park stark naked and not fear sexual assault.

      Sadly however we know that isn't a low risk activity. But apparently, neither is sleeping in your own bed at home behind a locked door - there was an incident in my home town last week of a woman suffering an aggravated sexual assault at home in her own bed. It certainly wasn't the first news report I'd heard of similar assaults.

      Blaming the victim is denial of the responsibility of the aggressor to behave in a civillised manner in the first place.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    25. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might not have finished reading the GP. The quote you are disagreeing with was sarcastically calling out the GGP for ridiculous victim blaming.

    26. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If someone walked through a bad part of town while wearing a nice suit and talking on an expensive phone, and they got mugged, I'd consider it pretty stupid of them. But I don't believe that should make any difference to the blame (and punishment) we apply to the mugger.

    27. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, most people already know that a woman walking through a park, at 1am, in a mini-skirt shouldn't be all that surprised if she gets attacked. That doesn't make the attack wrong^Wright and does not excuse the attacker. The victim should also learn to not be so damn stupid.

      It gets even better when you take into account men who've apparently been brought up to believe that any woman in public not covered from head to foot is in effect wearing a big sign that says, "I'M A WHORE! FUCK ME!"

      That works out real well here in Stockholm with some Middle Eastern immigrant males and local women who've been brought up in an environment where they're encouraged to believe that the amount of flesh that they happen to expose has little to no bearing on their relationship status, availability, interest, lifestyle, or level of social acceptability.

    28. Re:Some kids are bully magents by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      Good straw man argument, there, but I'll respond anyway. "How they handle themselves" in these situations is fundamental; They either stay quiet and do nothing, thereby remaining the target of the bully's menace, because nobody else knows this is happening. Or, they take their life into their own hands like human beings and do something about it. That might be telling a teacher, the school nurse, a dinner lady, line manager or employer, a social worker, a union rep, the police, their GP, a friend, the ex-doorman in the local pub who happens to know a few unpleasant people... Either way, the first step needs to come from the victim. Otherwise nobody is to know; Bullies are very good at covering their tracks.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    29. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But to fix the problem you really should look at each kid who gets bullied too and show them what they're doing wrong.

      Fixed that for you. Without the 'too' you are blaming the victim. And don't tell them what they'r doing wrong, many of them probably already feel they can only do things wrong, focus on what can be done to improve the situation, including how to get support from others.

      Western societies have an extreme focus on being self-reliant and personally responsible for everything that happens to you. While teaching people self-reliance is a very good thing, expecting everyone to be fully self-reliant all the time is just not realistic, I feel we're over-emphasizing it. Kids who are being (severely) bullied are likely in a position where they feel the entire society expects them to be strong enough to cope while their reality is that they just can't. Not only do they feel they can't handle the bully, they also feel society looks down on them for being too weak to live up to the self-reliant norm. So they shut up and don't talk about it. That's how it worked for me. My parents had consistently given me the impression I wasn't entitled to ask for their support (they were too occupied with their bad marriage for that), and the norm of self-reliance that was communicated everywhere constantly reinforced that message and extended it to the whole of society. That is a very lonely position to be in when you're being bullied, and I can imagine that's part of the reason why some bullying victims commit suicide.

    30. Re:Some kids are bully magents by SourceFrog · · Score: 1

      It's not a straw man, it's an analogy, and you completely fail to respond to the arguments. "How they handle themselves" has little to do with the more important point: That members of society who have morals, and aren't sociopaths, actually believe that certain actions are wrong, and that you should take steps against those who commit them, and protect the innocent victims. To suggest that we do this in the adult world but expect the opposite for children is hypocritical and denotes a flawed, inconsistent moral system.

      Trying to dismiss the analogy with false claims does not make your glaring inconsistency go away: Either we start blaming the victim in all these situations in adult society as well as for children (and get rid of laws criminalizing domestic abuse, because hey, it's the victim's fault) - or we need to accept that we need to be consistent, and that it is our moral failing if we blame five year old victims and put them into situations where they are unsafe and we fail to protect them.

      Either way, the first step needs to come from the victim

      Um, we're talking about five year olds here. Are you for real? Five year olds are especially vulnerable. Do you think a five year old has the thinking capacity of an adult? My God, I hope you are never placed anywhere remotely near in charge of any child whatsoever. You think the nation's five year olds must all just wake up tomorrow morning suddenly understanding what they need to do? Seriously? That's your big solution?

      --
      My other UID is three digits.
    31. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Typical scenario: bully comes up to you and decides to fuck with you. Option a: Act scared, get beat up. Option b: stand your ground, get beat up. I've seen it happen.

      Agreed. It happened to me, age 7-12. Me: physically clumsy, thin, not strong at all, absent-minded, dreamy kid who didn't understand aggression at all. He: ridiculously strong, broad, all muscle, very aggressive. If he caught me there was nothing I could do, it was like being caught in a vise. Trying to fight him had only one effect: he enjoyed it and he would torture me for much longer. So I tried to avoid being caught (he literally hunted for me after school almost every day for 5 years) and when he did catch me the quickest and least painful way out was to make it as boring for him as possible by not resisting.

    32. Re:Some kids are bully magents by wildstoo · · Score: 1

      "Some kids are bully magents" [sic]

      You really believe that? You believe that if a bully "smells your fear" that gives them carte blanche to attack? That the person being bullied is culpable because they didn't react with the secret "anti-bullying" dance?

      You're wrong. Life isn't a fucking movie where the underdog protagonist finally uses his intellect/superpower/whatever to embarrass the bully and win the approval of his peers. This is reality, where there will ALWAYS be a weakest kid in the group, and some kids are just fucking bullies for any number of reasons, and no amount of laughing it off or keeping it cool will cause them to stop or switch targets.

      So, you're either incredibly stupid or you're just a cunt.

      ... either that or I've just fallen for a really clever troll.

    33. Re:Some kids are bully magents by SourceFrog · · Score: 1

      Good straw man argument

      I think I see where your thinking is confused ... you have been conditioned by cultural norms to believe that domestic violence is "bad" but that school bullying is "harmless". In reality, there is no qualitative difference between domestic abuse and bullying, it is virtually the identical thing .. same actions, same effects on victims, it's the same thing. We even have a defense called 'battered wife syndrome', but we haven't yet afforded bullying victims something like 'battered bullying victim syndrome'. This is only because mentally we are still operating under the indoctrination that bullying is "harmless".

      Fortunately, this is slowly changing. The endless array of high-profile suicides of bullying victims, a.o. things, is raising public awareness that the problem is real.

      Bullying is also a factor in fully two-thirds of school shootings, and in fact, in many school shootings, the shootings were not even random - but directed at the bullies (the media tends to usually leave this information out). Qualitatively, there is no difference between this and a battered wife that one day 'cracked'.

      Actually, the only qualitative difference is the one that makes it even worse .. that the victims are not mentally formed adults, but the most vulnerable members of society.

      --
      My other UID is three digits.
    34. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Similarly, very few people have the courage to examine the role rape victims play in being raped. Promiscuous dress and behavior attract rapists. People need to recognize that behavior of victims contributes to the attacks.

      Or you're talking out of your ass.

      Similarly, very few people have the courage to examine the role rape victims play in being raped. Promiscuous dress and behavior attract rapists. People need to recognize that behavior of victims contributes to the attacks.

      Or you're talking out of your ass.

      That isn't a fair analogy. Comparing schoolyard bullying to rape is just wrong.

      I was bullied at school, relentlessly. This happened because I had very poor social skills, and did not have the courage to stand up for myself. Today, I do not blame the people who bullied me because I accept that seeking to establish your social rank in the pack this is a natural part of the social dynamics of humans ( as well as other social mammals ).
      The solution was to take a long hard look at myself, and to take responsibility for how I carried myself and being standing up for myself when someone would cross the line. IMO, a skill every single person needs to live a successful happy life. I am good friends with many of the people who bullied me today.

      I really feel like the solution to this problem is teaching these kids basic social skills instead of labeling the bullies stupid jocks who are threatened by the victims intelectual ability. To me this stinks of rationalization. They are not even slightly threatened.

      Its just human nature, albeit an ugly aspect of it. Accepting it, and acting accordingly is the most efficient way of stopping bullying. You will be way better off, and so will your kids.

    35. Re:Some kids are bully magents by wildstoo · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, while we're at it.... self-deprecating humor is when you willingly make fun of yourself. What you're talking about is verbal abuse.

      Hope that difference isn't too subtle for you. I suspect it might be.

    36. Re:Some kids are bully magents by wildstoo · · Score: 1

      Today, I do not blame the people who bullied me because I accept that seeking to establish your social rank in the pack this is a natural part of the social dynamics of humans ( as well as other social mammals ).

      You don't blame them because they were just doing what animals do? You think so highly of your new friends!

      Ridiculous comparisons to other social mammals aside, your post reeks of Stockholm Syndrome. The rationalization you mention in your post is alive and well in your own comments. To me, it looks like you've fabricated this framework of acceptance after the fact as a way to rationalize what happened to you.

      Accepting it, and acting accordingly is the most efficient way of stopping bullying.

      The problem is, when you replace the word "bullying" in that sentence with other "ugly aspects" of human nature, it begins to unravel.

      Accepting it, and acting accordingly is the most efficient way of stopping emotional abuse.

      Accepting it, and acting accordingly is the most efficient way of stopping physical assault.

      Accepting it, and acting accordingly is the most efficient way of stopping sexual assault.

      Accepting it, and acting accordingly is the most efficient way of stopping murder.

    37. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humans share many social habits with other mammals. The comparion is not ridiculous at all. Read up on your evolution. And yes I think highly of my friends. If I didnt they wouldnt be my friends.

      Accepting responsibilty for what happens to myself is the opposite of rationalization. You are generally powerless in changing how other people behave, but you are 100% in control of how YOU behave. I find it better to focus my efforts on what I can control, and accept what i cannot.

      This approach would not work for the other aspects you listed, but we are talking about schoolyard bullying here, not murder or rape. Its not as simple as saying that some evil kids are being nasty to some innocent child. Being a bully doesnt make you evil, it's just a part of being human. A way of elevating your social status at the expense of a weaker individual. Its not good, and its not bad. It just is. If you are weak you should strive to become stronger. If you lack social skills you should strive to better them, not blame the world and nature for not taking your weakness into consideration.

      All I am saying is, you are not doing these kids any favors by telling them they are victims powerless to defend themselves from bullying. You are not doing yourself any favors by harboring that much resentment and hate either.

    38. Re:Some kids are bully magents by wildstoo · · Score: 1

      This approach would not work for the other aspects you listed, but we are talking about schoolyard bullying here, not murder or rape.

      As has been pointed out so many times here already, people like yourself are under the impression that bullying is trivial when it's clear that the results can be catastrophic. If an adult did to another person, child or adult, what some bullies do to their peers, they'd be locked up.

      Its not as simple as saying that some evil kids are being nasty to some innocent child.

      Actually, it is. We criminalize antisocial behaviour in adults. We should do everything in our power to stamp it out in children. Adults have supreme power to stop bullying, but society allows it to continue, and people like you just harp about "giving the victims the tools to blah blah..." while in any situation other than the schoolyard, we'd be talking about fines and jail sentences, and the people blaming the victims would be rightly ostracized.

      All I am saying is, you are not doing these kids any favors by telling them they are victims powerless to defend themselves from bullying.

      Powerless? I never said that. Victims, yes, but victimhood doesn't automatically imply powerlessness. I agree that the victims should stand up for themselves. I just don't think that's where responsibility should begin and end. The bully is to blame. Always. No exceptions.

      I don't think I'm going to convince you, so I'll leave you with your belief that the bullying made you stronger. I'm sure it helps.

    39. Re:Some kids are bully magents by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      It's not a straw man, it's an analogy

      Then why have you posted a second comment stating that domestic abuse (your example) and bullying (the topic under discussion) are in fact different? Cognitive dissonance much?

      That members of society who have morals, and aren't sociopaths, actually believe that certain actions are wrong, and that you should take steps against those who commit them, and protect the innocent victims.

      Please, identify the victims without them coming forward, or you witnessing first hand the bully in action (Unlikely; As I've said, they are very good at hiding their bullying, just as sociopaths are good, when confronted, at hiding their sociopathy).

      Trying to dismiss the analogy with false claims does not make your glaring inconsistency go away: Either we start blaming the victim in all these situations in adult society as well as for children (and get rid of laws criminalizing domestic abuse, because hey, it's the victim's fault) - or we need to accept that we need to be consistent, and that it is our moral failing if we blame five year old victims and put them into situations where they are unsafe and we fail to protect them.

      I don't think I blamed the victim anywhere in my post. I said that unless a bully is identified by a victim, it's unlikely that any action can be taken. There are many ways to go about this; I listed them in my post, by no means exhaustively.

      Um, we're talking about five year olds here. Are you for real? Five year olds are especially vulnerable. Do you think a five year old has the thinking capacity of an adult? My God, I hope you are never placed anywhere remotely near in charge of any child whatsoever. You think the nation's five year olds must all just wake up tomorrow morning suddenly understanding what they need to do? Seriously? That's your big solution?

      Whoa, there! All of a sudden we're back on children and not domestic abuse! For what it's worth, I actually work in a primary school, though only in a support capacity. I see, daily, children telling their teachers, or another adult, when a fellow child is causing them distress. "Telling tales" isn't a big deal anymore. At least where I work, everyone is supportive when a child reports bullying, whether it's physical or emotional, and that doesn't just go for the victim. Bullying is challenged by seeking the reasons for the behaviour, and supporting the bully through changing for the better.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    40. Re:Some kids are bully magents by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      I think I see where your thinking is confused ... you have been conditioned by cultural norms to believe that domestic violence is "bad" but that school bullying is "harmless". In reality, there is no qualitative difference between domestic abuse and bullying, it is virtually the identical thing .. same actions, same effects on victims, it's the same thing. We even have a defense called 'battered wife syndrome', but we haven't yet afforded bullying victims something like 'battered bullying victim syndrome'. This is only because mentally we are still operating under the indoctrination that bullying is "harmless".

      Wow... Not at all. My parents moved to a new city when I was 11, so I went into secondary school knowing nobody whatsoever. Yeah, that part of my life was fucking awesome, thanks for asking :) I suffered with exactly the same "hold yourself back" mentality in secondary school, to the point where I went from one of the brightest children in my primary school to a scrape-the-basic-requirements-for-a-job-thanks-to-soft-drugs-and-underage-drinking at the end, and it has taken me a LONG time to get past that. As such, I have a real soft spot for bullying and domestic abuse victims, and no sympathy for bullies at all. However, the intellectual in me knows that you can only beat more violence into someone, you can't beat it out of them. So, I believe support is the way forward.

      I hate to quote a Michael Moore film, as he has as much of an agenda as the other side, but something Marilyn Manson said in "Bowling for Columbine" really stuck with me. When asked "What would you say to the Columbine shooters today, if you could?"

      His reply: "I wouldn't say anything. I would listen to what they had to say. That's the one thing nobody did."

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    41. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if the bully has been bullied himself? This is often the case. I too was guilty of this. Its just how one reacts to that reality.
      Bullying in most forms and contexts is not a crime. Granted assault can be a form of bullying, but typically what we mean when we talk about bullying is social humiliation. Remarks, pranks etc. AFAIK, thats not illegal. It also isnt random. I dont mean to trivialize anything, but blowing it out of proportion is equally harmful. To be blunt, the world is a harsh place and we all need to develop the tools to cope. Some people develop these naturally, others need to make an effort. For those that need to make an effort the best thing you can do for them is make them aware that they need to make that effort and help them with it. The worst thing you can do is shelter and protect them.

      Personally I could care less about where to lay the blame. Blame the teachers, parents, bullies or kids. What good will that do? You cant blame anyone for kids behaving like kids are biologically programmed to do. I care more about how to end it, and how to grow from it. I can tell you 100% that I am better off now both professionally and personally than I would have been if I had people protecting me and preventing the bullying. Had they done that they would be preventing me from growing, and reinforcing my victim identity. I am thankful no one did. Wether you believe it or not.

    42. Re:Some kids are bully magents by phorm · · Score: 1

      A certain group (two brothers and their friend) liked to hunt me down in a similar manner. An introduction to a long piece of wood traditionally used in a certain outdoor sport solved that (no I didn't hit them with it, but they got eyes wide and ran when I chased them with it).

      Really, it's not the pain that holds off bullies. It's the fear. They're cowards at heart.

      I don't recommend baseball bats as a solution, but they're usually something better than curling into a ball and accepting the beating.

    43. Re:Some kids are bully magents by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      The point is the two ways to deal with bullying are to end the relationship with the bully, or change the relationship - often by gaining enough acceptance from your peers that the bully stops seeing you as a safe target, maybe eventually he sees you as a human. Your examples are where you won't be getting help from peers, and you really do have to either take things into your own hands, or you have to leave.

      In a school bullying situation, if you make yourself a target there won't just be one bully, so the best solution often is to figure out why you get targeted and do something about it. There are plenty of situations where everyone stonewalls the victim and he will never get a chance, but some kids just don't understand how to not be obnoxious, awkward or that special brand of annoying that is too subtle to politely do anything about. If you tell these kids that the entire problem is the bully, their lack of social skills can hurt them more than any direct abuse they are recieving.

    44. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, what Commenter Number 968808 said sounds like blaming the victim because it is blaming the victim.

      The fact that bullies are human beings, and that you can understand and perhaps relate to how they pick their targets, is simply irrelevant.

    45. Re:Some kids are bully magents by deadweight · · Score: 1

      +1000 The bullies I knew tended to be a LOT bigger than their victims AND run in packs. The idea of fighting them was about as smart as Richard Simmons attacking Hulk Hogan.

    46. Re:Some kids are bully magents by N_as_in_Mnemonic · · Score: 1

      The parent isn't suggesting that the fault is with the victim. The parent is suggesting that being a victim of bullying may be indicative of their personality type. Just like there are bullying personality types, that is, there are certain types of people who are more likely to bully others, so too are there types of people who are more than likely to be bullied. There is an article in Psychology Today that goes into a bit more detail http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200910/big-bad-bully Looking at the examples you cited, there are certain personality types who are prone to being the beaten wife just as there are those who are more likely to beat their wives. There are those who become the abusive boss and there are those who are they type to work for them. Often these two types will attract each other. And why shouldn't they? Bullies want someone they can pick on, preferably without having to do anything. The victim type will just sit there and take it so why wouldn't the bully pick on them if he knows he can get away with it? It may be wrong for the bully to punch another (assault). It is wrong for a husband to punch his wife but if she keeps going back to him and makes excuses for him how can anything be done? If the subservient employee keeping going back into work no matter how bad things get and they keep denying there is a problem, how will things improve? Does it pay to know and understand bullying behaviour? Of course. Likewise, it behooves us to know and understand victim behaviour as well. I don't agree with the parent that we have to show the victim that they are doing it wrong, but understanding victim behaviour is just as important as understanding the bully's. Understanding the victim isn't blaming them. As a parent, I certainly would like to know what victim behaviour looks like, just as I would want to know what bullying behaviour looks like, so it can be recognized and handled.

    47. Re:Some kids are bully magents by N_as_in_Mnemonic · · Score: 1

      Typical scenario: bully comes up to you

      The reason the bully came up to you is because he knew you would just sit there and take it, unlike other kids he bypassed. This is what the parent is talking about. He isn't saying you deserve it for being a victim type, rather it usually happens because the bully can pick the victim out of a crowd and zero in. Recognizing those who tend to be victims is just as important as recognizing those who tend to be bullies.

    48. Re:Some kids are bully magents by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      One thing that might work is to try to kill the bully in the next fight. You'll get beaten up no matter what, but if you can hurt the bully you might be placed into the crazy people to avoid category, and that's a win in this case. You won't succeed in killing the guy, of course, and you don't really want to, but make a serious attempt at it. Failing that, do anything you can to hurt the bully. If beating you up has a risk attached to it, you'll be a less attractive target.

      This isn't the sort of advice I normally give, but school bullying is a strange situation.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    49. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the vague description I at first thought you meant a jousting lance, but then chasing down bullies from horseback would be way more effective to strike fear in their hearts...

    50. Re:Some kids are bully magents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I said, I was physically clumsy and didn't understand agression. i wouldn't have been convincing at all.

  35. the social violence of little angels by epine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There was a girl in my class in middle school who was first rate at figure skating, and never got picked on at all. There were kids who were good at art and other things ... no hassles. Precious athletes, for the most part, exempt from the social tax on excellence.

    There was a girl hideously deformed in the jaw and neck who showed up one day. No one said a word for two months, then the dam burst. I'd been in a children's hospital down the hall from a burn unit. I wasn't having any of it. Most of the adults who came to visit were so green around the gills to step onto that ward you almost needed a bucket in the hallway.

    Sam Harris says we grant religious beliefs too much automatic deference. I think this also extends to our little rotters. There's something terribly vicious in young children that we neither discuss nor study to the extent warranted by their appalling capacity for social cruelty.

    Not my little angel! Well, I suspect your little angel has become adept at emulating attitudes learned at home.

    The social violence of little angels should be news. Today and every day. Do people think it just goes away, or does it merely mutate into more mature forms? I'm not trying to stamp out scorn or derision. That's a fact of life, man. But I do think that the use of "gay" as a generic adjective of derision should get the little rotters shuffled onto a short bus for the social learning disabled.

    High time "gay" went the way of DUI, where nearly everyone looks at you funny, like you're charting a life course for a wall-mounted chrome toilet with no lid.

    1. Re:the social violence of little angels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mod this up.

    2. Re:the social violence of little angels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why single out "gay" and out of context no less? That's one problem with any approach that is censorship-based (specific sounds or things you think you heard) or the authoritarian approach (zero-tolerance, no common sense).

      "Gay" can mean stupid and it can also be a horribly cruel insult. There is simply no end to the words a cretin can abuse. E.g., what if I called the girl in your example "Dee Form" or something stupid?

      "DUI"s themselves are an example of political correctness gone to the point where false accusations can destroy lives and be financially crippling. Telling me you want something to go "the way of DUI", is telling me you want irrational, PC-driven, jack-booted police state tactics (checkpoint charlies, no due process, high error bars on ever-lower limits). FYI: I rarely ever drink - once or twice a year - and certainly not before or while driving.

      That said, I agree with the premise: correcting the "little rotters".

    3. Re:the social violence of little angels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is truth to this. However, one thing I've come to realize is that small monsters get their ideas from somewhere. Who do you think tells them to be racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.? Who do you think tells them they need to buy the latest gadgets, clothing, and music in order to be "cool"? Who do you think plants all these insecurities in them about their weight, their looks, their athletic prowess, the number of parties they go to, etc? (And with capitalism, it's always a "party", it seems that superficial entertainment is what this society is all about, while in the background drones are attacking 3rd worlders on the other side of the planet.)

      We live in a predatory economy, with corporations droning on about how we won't be complete without their latest products, telling us how inadequate we are, etc. This sort of mind control (otherwise known as advertising) has a huge effect on all of us. Kids feed off this, and I think our capitalist culture goes a long way towards creating people that lack empathy and who measure themselves by their outward appearance, their balance sheet, and the things they own. In other words, as big of a monster as kids can be, it's the adults in the marketing departments, and the adults that spawned them in the first place, that create these monsters. The only thing that changes when you get older is that the crimes are less personal and have a sense of banal formality. It doesn't mean you aren't getting screwed over.

      TLDR: Children reflect the nature of the system they exist within better than any other age group. A lot of militaries in 3rd world countries will pick children simply because they are easier to mold and shape into lethal fighters. They don't have the pretense or formality of their elders. If you want to see what a bunch of monsters a materialistic, greed driven society can create, you need look no further than the children it creates. There is a flip side, and that is, children are more honest, and they are capable of being selfless and pure, so it's not all bad. I'd say the behavior of our U.S. children says far, far more about us than it does them.

    4. Re:the social violence of little angels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, put them on the short bus to shame them! Because you can fight homophobia with ablism.

  36. Lack of sufficiently early segregation. by Kaz+Kylheku · · Score: 1

    This problem eventually goes away as people are sorted into classes based on their achievement.

    It is caused because schools are a "melting pot" for people from various social strata, personalities and intellectual levels.

    As people go through life, they tend to segregate and associate with similar people.So bullying based on intelligence diminishes or goes away entirely. I mean, you're not going to be bullied by your peers for being smart if you're a grad student in engineering physics.

    The fix is to identify the talented and smart kids as early as possible and whisk them off to separate schools, where they not only benefit from being away from the bullies, but also benefit from a more advanced, accelerated curriculum.

    1. Re:Lack of sufficiently early segregation. by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      This problem eventually goes away as people are sorted into classes based on their achievement.

      Ha. You must be new to modern educational standardized testing.

      Try and get ETS to publish statistical reliability and validity data for any of their tests. They won't, because the tests are statistically neither reliable nor valid. I.E. They don't give a consistent result and they don't test the thing they are intended to test for.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  37. Am I the only one... by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

    ...that was bothered by them referring to 12% as "one in 10"? It's closer to one in eight (12.5%) or one in nine (11.11...%) than one in ten (10%).

    Maybe if they had spent less time writing about non-newsworthy topics that have remained unchanged for decades and more time studying their math while not caring what other people said about their intelligence they'd have not made a mistake like that.

    1. Re:Am I the only one... by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 4, Funny

      They were just intentionally making dumb mistakes so the other authors wouldn't bully them.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:Am I the only one... by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 1

      Or maybe it's a clever trap to piss off and waste the energy of so called "smart people" who can't get over it

    3. Re:Am I the only one... by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      I make no claims to being smart. I merely stake a claim to having been bothered. ;)

    4. Re:Am I the only one... by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 1

      Hahaha, good one

  38. What to do? by readin · · Score: 1

    I suppose it might help if efforts were made to promote some team competition or even team grading in academic subjects. Competitions like that "It's Academic" show held in class would make it nice to have the smart kid on your team sometimes. I'm sure some people would object that it would hurt the feelings of the kids who don't do as well, but we have competitions for soccer, football, basketball, and other physical activities all the time and the results are quite visible. The only time we worry about the results hurting people's feelings are in academics. It seems to me that a little more visibility would help everyone. People would know when they need to improve. Not everyone knows.

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    1. Re:What to do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason why people are bullied over academics is because it's the only metric of real world future performance you'll receive in school. Bullies are envious, hostile, that your grades, family support and intelligence are depriving them of a future.

      Believe me, the bullies know they're going to be pumping gas.

    2. Re:What to do? by readin · · Score: 1

      But it would help if strong performance were made a positive thing to your peers. Hogwarts has that school team thing (yeah, I know it's fictional, but it's still a good illustration). While having 4 teams that get judged on various things including academics and discipline creates a climate where 3/4s of the students are out to get you, it also creates a climate where 1/4 of the students want you to succeed. This means that if you're doing well they praise you instead of resent you. It means if you're doing poorly they have a reason to help you do better. This is generally what happens on sports teams.

      I don't know if copying exactly what Hogwarts does would work in real life, but it seems using some sort of team academic competition would help the academically successful kids not be resented so much. And it would help motivate underachievers.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  39. smells like too full of crap! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the hell happened to being #1 in confidence?

  40. Immediate benefit of AP classes by davidwr · · Score: 2

    Last, but not least, AP Calc has yet to help me in life

    Don't knock AP Calculus.

    It's a lot cheaper to take the class in high school and pay for the AP test than to pay college tuition later.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  41. Pay Attention to the Messenger by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

    An anti bullying organization does a study and finds alarming rates of anti-academic bullying. Oh the surprise!

    I went through the UK school system in a steelworks-and-mining area. Being academically successful was not a problem. I had friends up and down the academic scale. There was a palpable mutual dislike between the sports types (rugby mostly) and the academic types. But that was not a 'problem' academically. The teachers were divided along similar lines.

    It probably goes on, but 90% is a nonsense number, borne of methodological bias, which is inevitable given who was doing the survey.

    --
    I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    1. Re:Pay Attention to the Messenger by xaxa · · Score: 1

      I went through the UK school system in a steelworks-and-mining area.

      When?

      My parents were both teachers. My dad, who taught in a machines-and-factories area (somewhere uses that steel and coal!) reckoned the late 1970s was the point where some cultural change meant general reduced achievement and trouble keeping discipline.

      Note that the anti-bullying organisation could easily have done the survey and claimed that, say, social class was the biggest problem, or appearance, or whatever. I don't really see why they shouldn't be trusted on this.

    2. Re:Pay Attention to the Messenger by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      >When?
      1973 - 1988 or thereabout.

      I didn't say they were wrong about what goes on. I do suspect their numbers are biased high, based purely on my own experience. As noted many times in this discussion, bullies pick on the socially weak. To the extent that social weakness correlates with academic ability, you have a classic confounding variable.

      I left that world behind and I work in an area where brains are your most important contribution. It's satisfying to note that my friends who went to college and did science all have had good lives over the past 20 odd years. Many of those who didn't, still live in the armpit of society and have lived what I would consider a hard life. I've discussed this with my former school friends and there's a common thread that we all looked into the pit of despair that was life around us and saw college as an escape from that and worked towards it.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  42. They need to form a gang... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    And go around breaking the legs of those that make fun of smarts. It's time for a nerd uprising with violence. Hair trigger nerd rage violence.....

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:They need to form a gang... by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 2

      They'd get nailed to the wall and whatever video games they play would be excoriated in Congress. I got in more trouble defending myself than my attackers ever got in for attacking me.

      Was the main reason I got into some light theft and break and enter when I was in my teens. I'd realized that I'd never seen the school administration blame the right person for anything, so I started doing things to get back something for the times I'd been punished. Never got caught for anything I did.

    2. Re:They need to form a gang... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that sad fact is more true today than it's ever been. With the police generally being bought off, or being lazy as hell about anything if it doesn't directly affect their paycheque, or just doing nothing at all... vigilante justice is about the only justice one can count on to actually do something. Whether it's what you want or not is debatable, but it's at least a numerical percent chance of something being done instead of 0% or worse, they decide that you, the victem, are the easiest target and nail you instead.

      Take for example car break-ins. If I spotted someone breaking my car window and trying to pull the radio or whatever, would I call the police? Hells no, the theif would be gone HOURS before the police arrived, after which the police will just say "Yep, your car was indeed broken into. Ok, I've got coffee and donuts to go get now."

      No! I'd attempt to slam the car door on his legs (if any part of him is sticking out of the car) as hard as I could, then bludgeon him with a rock or stick or anything I'm able to until he's unconscious, after which I'd probably drive over his hands purely to make him incapable of breaking into cars again. And fuck that noise that he might just be down on his luck and this is out of desparation. If your desparate, sit on a corner and beg, or better still... do busking. Tell jokes, sing, dance, do whatever. Breaking into someone's car has absolutely zero excuse.

  43. Re:So? What's new? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Funny

    They killed him for speaking English?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  44. Private schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Save your money, send your children to private schools. My daughter is going to the one I went to where 100% graduate, 100% go on to college and being smart is the norm. Put your kids in with low achieving uncivilized morons and it's not only going to hurt their academic development, it will also hurt their emotional development. Who would consider sending their kids to a public school except those that were previously the moron bullies in the problem we are discussing?

  45. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry but this is bullshit at least from my experience here in the states. I was widely considered to be one of the smarter people in my classes(whether this was actually the case is arguable) all this usually amounted to was people asking me lots of questions. I was never particularly popular wasn't in any sports(was on the debate team). Never once in the entirety of my time in school elementary to highschool can I recall I ever felt I was bullied. Nor do I remember anything ever happening in school except (call me racist) the black girls(or the one white girl who was in their clique) aways fighting and screaming with each other and getting dragged away by the police or someone. I was always in suburban schools so maybe its a gangsta/hillbilly thing that happens everywhere else.

  46. Fuck teachers by Charliemopps · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I went through this shit... Teachers are awful. Half the time the teachers would join in. Fuck them. I remember in 7th grade my science teacher telling the class that one day we wouldn't have our pinky toe anymore because we don't need it anymore and evolution would take care of it. I raised my hand and pointed out that evolution didn't work that way. She got mad and told me I was wrong. The next day I brought in a book on evolution from the library to prove my point. I failed that class... and not because I failed any tests.

    If there's bullying going on in a classroom, it's the teachers fault. Period. I've always said it's a sad truth that your children are safer in a bar than they are at school. If the shit that went down in your local high-school happened anywhere else people would go to jail.

    1. Re:Fuck teachers by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

      Which goes to prove that all young geeks should read Ender's Shadow with its discussion of how to deal with teachers... "The criminal misuse of time was pointing out the mistakes. Catching them, noticing them was essential. If you did not in your own mind distinguish between useful and erroneous information, you were not learning at all - you were merely replacing ignorance with false belief, which was no improvement. The part of the man’s statement that was true, however, was about the uselessness of speaking up. IF I know that the teacher is wrong, and say nothing, then I remain the only one who knows, and that gives me an advantage over the those who believe the teacher"

    2. Re:Fuck teachers by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 1

      So you failed a class and blamed it on an arbitrary disagreement with your teacher?

    3. Re:Fuck teachers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is why you idiots get bullied.
      I got good grades all throughout high school, and so did most of my friends.
      None of us ever got bullied as far as I can tell. And we still hated the know-it-all who had to point out every single triviality that came up.

      Every time you point out that the teacher left out a - sign the whole class groans internally and wishes you were in a different class a bit more.
      Why? Because it's fucking obvious, it doesn't matter for the overall idea, and you're slowing shit down.
      The less you interrupt, the sooner we finish and get to go home.

      You can't fail a class if you pass the tests.
      Pass fail is determined by the average of your tests.
      You can go to the school administration and complain otherwise.
      You can get your parents to complain.
      Good teacher have gotten fired at my school because parents just couldn't believe their precious little shit didn't put any effort into anything.
      So don't tell me you had no options for passing that class.

      Just so you know, I had a teacher who I hated, but I didn't break up the class to talk about it.
      Instead I took up every lunch break for a month to bug the bitch until she increased my grade from a 4 to a 7.
      Every day I would go, point out some mistakes she made, and have her increase my grade a little more.
      She could have tried to fail me for no reason, but I would have taken so much of her time complaining about that it wasn't worth it.
      Of course it helped that I asked a teacher of the same subject to correct the test for me, so I was fairly certain I was in the right.

      Just remembering assholes like you is winding me up.
      Remembering that teacher is great though.

    4. Re:Fuck teachers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Preach on bro - half of my teachers were dicks, and this was a decent state comprehensive. That may be why the teaching profession feels it doesn't get enough respect - because we've all experienced idiots in charge.

      Ob: http://www.shipmentoffail.com/fails/2009/03/note-from-the-teacher/

  47. Get rid of zero tolerance for violence by Velex · · Score: 2

    No zero tolerance bullcrap. All that does is protect bullies. If somebody shoves your student, give them every right to give the aggressor a black eye.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
    1. Re:Get rid of zero tolerance for violence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullies get protected because the parents of bullies tend to be bullies as well.

      It doesn't take much prodding from a loud-mouthed bully of a parent towards a principal, with threats of discrimination lawsuits, to push a school official around.

      Start arresting all of the parents and holding them responsible for their miserable shitty children. Charge the parents with harassment and assault for every instance of bullying. It would stop shortly thereafter.

    2. Re:Get rid of zero tolerance for violence by readin · · Score: 1

      At one point I seriously considered just getting into a fight with a kid who was bullying me. At the same time, I was hoping to try to live up to my potential and get straight As. I did the math of course. If we each got suspended for 3 days and missed a test - Mr. Bully could recover and bring his grade point average back up to a D or C with a couple good scores. I would never be able to recover the A.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    3. Re:Get rid of zero tolerance for violence by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      I hate hearing that bullshit.

      In elementary school, the routine was that the bullies would stand in a circle around their victim, and the leader would start hitting the victim. If the victim just curled up in a fetal position and hid his face, then only one bully would hit him. If the victim tried to resist -- say, by pushing the bully away -- then the entire pack would close in, and together beat up the victim, to "teach him a lesson". The yard duty teachers would ignore this, usually, despite the fact it usually happened in the middle of the playground, in plain sight. A few times I was called in to talk to teachers or administrators, who asked me what I was doing to provoke bullies and how I thought I could change my behavior to stop provoking them. My mother insisted I was effeminate and disgusting and deserved to be bullied; my father was more sympathetic.

      That was my experience at two elementary schools in wealthy suburbs. Later, we moved to a poor rural area, where there was considerably less bullying. At that school, teachers tended to respond promptly and intervene in bullying and fights to break them up. Zero tolerance for violence? Please, more of that.

      I've long wondered if the behavior of kids in wealthy suburbs was the result of their being trained to be sociopaths, to suit their future social roles as managers and professionals.

    4. Re:Get rid of zero tolerance for violence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good thing nobody ever did that to me I would have shot them all in the head.

    5. Re:Get rid of zero tolerance for violence by professionalfurryele · · Score: 2

      You don't hit back when they are all around you, you hit back later, when you catch the bully on their own, and break both his ankles. And hands. And beat his head so badly he cant see through the swelling in his eyes. Then you do the same to anyone who said anything out of turn while the initial incident was occurring. And if the school let the initial incident go they let this one go too. Or the school send the aggressor and their allies to jail for the initial incident. Either is fine by me, free for all or treat children like adults. Zero tolerance just hands bullies one more tool to use against the oppressed.

    6. Re:Get rid of zero tolerance for violence by deadweight · · Score: 1

      that DOES happen now and again..

  48. Popular culture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I saw this when I went to school in the late 60s and early 70s, but the popular culture then included things like the race to the Moon and such. Today's popular culture has turned far more offensive towards the "nerds" and straight-A students. Can you think of one popular song in the last 20 years that extolled the benefits of being smart or getting good grades? How about the opposite, popular music that suggests that it is not good to be smart or get good grades?

    While being smart has always been somewhat of a social deficit, I think it is worse today than it was when I was young.

    Another item that I think is interesting is when I was in High School, around 1973 or so there was a girl there that was obviously very smart. Mary Kate was rather attractive in a nerdy sort of way but she wasn't terribly popular especially with the more cliquish set. A year later she clearly made a decision that was better to be popular than smart, so she started fitting in more with others, studying was less important than going out, and clearly her grades suffered - but she was much more socially accepted. Mary Kate also traded in the glasses for contacts and wore her hair more stylishly. Yes, I was insufferably taken with Mary Kate but I was suddenly in the old nerdy group that she didn't want to be reminded of. I think pushing young people into making those kinds of decisions is not a good thing at all and the result was probably very short term social benefits but over the longer term it probably didn't help her get a better job or anything else. She probably gave up a really good chance a scholarship to be popular for a while in High School.

    Wish I had kept more in touch with Mary Kate...

  49. You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't worry scro'! There are plenty of 'tards out there living really kick ass lives.

  50. anti-intellectualism is hardly a new phenomena by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anti-intellectualism has been carted around by the knuckle draggers for centuries, even if they lack the vocabulary to discuss it in these terms.

    Just be glad that parents aren't contributing to the bullying to the same degree as we've seen in the past. How many fathers in the 50s, 60s and 70s wanted their sons to grow up to be sport stars, only to be disappointed when Junior has an aptitude for mathematics or a young boy's interest in entomology? This sort of family dynamic has been parodied numerous times in movies, but it was (and is) still quite real.

    It's one thing to have your peers plot against you and torment you. It's another when your mentors and family join in the abuse. Although saying "it could be worse" doesn't really help the kids getting bullied. Perspective is not really all that valuable when you need an immediate solution to end your torment. But maybe the people who are trying to solve the situation need to realize they are trying to solve a very old social problem. I would even venture to call it a disease, or perhaps a blight.

    1. Re:anti-intellectualism is hardly a new phenomena by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Anti-intellectualism has been carted around by the knuckle draggers for centuries, even if they lack the vocabulary to discuss it in these terms.

      Just be glad that parents aren't contributing to the bullying to the same degree as we've seen in the past. How many fathers in the 50s, 60s and 70s wanted their sons to grow up to be sport stars, only to be disappointed when Junior has an aptitude for mathematics or a young boy's interest in entomology? This sort of family dynamic has been parodied numerous times in movies, but it was (and is) still quite real.

      It's one thing to have your peers plot against you and torment you. It's another when your mentors and family join in the abuse. Although saying "it could be worse" doesn't really help the kids getting bullied. Perspective is not really all that valuable when you need an immediate solution to end your torment. But maybe the people who are trying to solve the situation need to realize they are trying to solve a very old social problem. I would even venture to call it a disease, or perhaps a blight.

      Consider the degree that our society worships celebreties and athletes, I do not think this attitude has changed much in the last 50 years. Perhaps it comes a bit softer these days, "Oh, Junior, you can do whatever you want in life! But wouldn't it be grand if you were the next Joe Montana?"

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  51. Studying from home by Yvanhoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Love it. When I tell people that my kids will be home-schooled they usually say "but school is where you learn to socialize." No. School is where you learn submission to authority, to muscle and to bullies. Also, teachers try very hard to prevent socialization in the classroom. Socialization can happen in sport activities or extra-scholar activity, but learning does not require bullies and crowded classes.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:Studying from home by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      School is where you learn submission to authority, to muscle and to bullies.

      It's where you learn to deal with authority, muscle and bullies. These things don't go away after high school (or home school) graduation.

    2. Re:Studying from home by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      But if you read adulthood without being forced into submission to that shit as a vulnerable child, when you encounter it in adulthood it will stand out to you as outrageous and not to be tolerated, rather than the norm and something just to bend over and take.

      We need more people growing up to see how the world is with eyes unaccustomed to it, who go "WHAT THE FUCK?" and won't stand for it like it was normal.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    3. Re:Studying from home by readin · · Score: 1

      If all you learned was submission then you failed. At some point you should have learned to blow off the abuse. You should have learned when to roll your eyes and walk away. You should have learned when to just look at someone with disbelief that they could be so lame. You should have learned how to make friends to help you stand up as a group.

      I personally was a late learning, but I did finally figure some things out in high school - like how to ignore insults because it didn't really matter what the person saying them said - he wasn't someone whose opinion mattered to me. And, to my surprise as I learned after school, no one else cared about his opinion either. That guy who offered to shake hands before a fight and then yanked me forward with his right while knocking me out with his right? Turned out everyone around me thought he was a jerk and thought his behavior was deplorable. I didn't need to fight him. I didn't need to answer his taunts on the bus. It took me longer than it should have, but I did figure it out.

      And I also learned some important lessons about humanity in general. All that stuff you learn when you're watching Barney and Sesame Street about people basically being good, and that you learn about how the good will come out with a little reason and a little kindness, well it's crap. There are some people who, if they are good somewhere deep down, it is really really far deep down. The Simpsons got it right when the bully just keeps bullying. And as for the majority of people around you, they may not be mean, but for the most part they'll just ignore your pain. A lot of people put on a show of civility for the people around them who can help them, who can make them more popular, who are their friends. But those of us who were bullied have seen the other side of these people. We know.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    4. Re:Studying from home by FoolishOwl · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We're homeschooling my younger stepson. It was becoming clear that elementary school was simply a waste of his time, even when he was attending a progressive private school (with a generous tuition assistance program). He learns more efficiently on his own initiative. We live in an urban area, one in which there's a fairly substantial community of homeschoolers who coordinate activity, and of course there's the Internet. I'd say he has far more social interaction than I did at his age, both with other children and with adults.

      From everything I've heard about modern educational theory, elementary school is pretty much pointless, and I'm increasingly dubious about the structure of later stages of formal education. I took classes on programming and system administration, and that prompted me to study specific topics that I wouldn't have, otherwise -- but, most of what I know about those subjects, I knew from tinkering with Linux on my own desktop, and most of the topics I studied that I wouldn't have on my own initiative, have proven to be obsolete or irrelevant to both my personal and my professional work. Meanwhile, I'm watching my ten-year-old, rapidly learning the ins and outs of package management and system administration, because of his interest in Minecraft.

      The main problem with homeschooling, in general, is that I think it's relatively unusual for most people families to be able to ensure there's an adult at home to supervise a younger child. Fortunately, my wife is in graduate school, and my work schedule gives me several weekdays off, so there's always an adult around in our household; we also have adult relatives nearby, as backup. But, I think more broadly yet, our social and economic organization is grossly irrational. We work far more hours than we ought to -- real wages have been static in the US for forty years, even as productivity has more than doubled, so I think we'd all be better off in many ways if our wages were increased, we worked fewer hours, and we did less useless crap that just wastes resources to prop up an irrational economic system based on perpetual expansion.

    5. Re:Studying from home by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      I keep thinking that one of the conceptual errors people frequently make is to confuse what makes a species tougher, in the sense of natural selection, with what makes an individual stronger. If you see a tree growing from a crevice on a sheer cliff, you know that's a pretty tough species of tree. But that's not a strong tree. It would have been a much stronger tree if it had grown in ideal conditions.

      We're not getting eaten by sabre-toothed tigers anymore. We need people who are strong -- as in, creative, empathetic, mutually supportive -- far more than we need people who are tough.

    6. Re:Studying from home by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      I was not bullied at school, even as a clearly identified geek. I am astounded to hear all those US stories about jocks bullying geeks with apparently a nation-wide trauma within a whole generation of scientists. I agree that some social interactions can be learnt at school. However, I stand by my point that we are learnt to react to authority in the worst possible way : institutionalized submission. None of the things you mentioned work when you are challenging a professor.

      Walking away doesn't really work when you are basically imprisoned with your bully. You have to find an authority that you will submit to in order to protect you. I think that the first step in adulthood and citizenship is to unlearn the social norms taught in school. They do not reflect the real world at all.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    7. Re:Studying from home by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how any of that connects to anything we were talking about. I'm not saying anything about people needing to be tough or not. I'm saying that our social conditions, being products solely of people's behavior and other people's reactions to it, are negatively influenced by people growing up conditioned to tolerate what should be intolerable abuses, and that they will be helped by people who grow up without that conditioning and so resist those abuses.

      To stretch your tree analogy, it's like the ground the trees grow on is shaped by the trees that grow there. Trees that grow on cliffs learn to just grow sideways because that's how you survive life on a cliff, and in doing so they perpetuate the existence of those cliffs. Cliff-trees transplanted to flat ground will try to twist the ground to the crooked conditions they're used to living in, but if surrounded by healthy trees won't be able to do so. I'm saying we need more healthy trees, which grew up on flat ground, to keep the whole world from being turned into cliffs that future trees would just have to learn to live on.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    8. Re:Studying from home by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      I suppose my response wasn't as direct as I thought it was. I do think I am basically agreeing with your point.

      I was objecting to the common, "This will teach you to be tough, which is good for you in the long run", which I thought I read implied in tbird81's comment. Though that may be a misreading of tbird81's comment, on reflection.

    9. Re:Studying from home by readin · · Score: 1

      Whether the social norms learned at school reflect the "real world" depends on what real world you live in. If you work at a high-tech white collar job and live in a suburb in a democratic country then the norms at school probably don't reflect your real world. But on the other hand, your real world has very little in common with the rest of the real world. Most people live in a world where they do have to submit to leaders or face punishments far worse that what you had to face in school. Most people live in a world where physical intimidation is something that must be handled occasionally or even daily. I'm not saying people get into fights all the time, but the concepts of a pecking order and bullying are there.

      And don't forget that our schools also train our future leaders. If they don't understand that in the real world there is no teacher to make bullies behave, there no police force to call when people break social norms, and the rules of the unsupervised playground prevail so that might makes right - they'll be ineffective leaders.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    10. Re:Studying from home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "School is where you learn submission to authority, to muscle and to bullies."
      I disagree, school is where I lost respect for authority figures (adults, teachers, bus drivers, police, religious leaders, managers, politicians, sports figures, experts in child rearing, psychologists, parents, legal system). It is where I learned to stand up to bullies and power. It is where I learned that I did not want to emulate the bullies to be part of their pitiful group. It is where I learned to draw a line in the sand. The key is to get used to writing your life off so that the only goal is to cause damage to the bullies using whatever tools or people that are available. I recommend scaling it up slowly to give the bullies a chance to back down and to stop if they back off.

    11. Re:Studying from home by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      When I tell people that my kids will be home-schooled they usually say "but school is where you learn to socialize."

      It's true. I went to an engineering school that had quite a few homeschooled kids. You could tell which ones were homeschooled - while there is of course observation bias, I can say every kid that said he was homeschooled stood out as such. In case I need to emphasize, they stood out as socially awkward in a school with nothing but geeks. Sure, you could get along with them just fine, but they had their rough edges that they were never made aware of.

      I certainly understand that homeschooling may be the best option depending on the schools available, but I assure you that "learning to socialize" is not a myth.

  52. Hold your head high ! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What's so surprising is that the current crop of intelligent people have actually succumbed to the bullies by the inferiority complex sufferers.

    I too, and many like me in my generation, and those before me, had gone through the gauntlet of taunts and shovings and beatings, just because we think differently.

    Those that bullied us bullied us because they felt inferior. They INSTINCTIVELY KNEW that they are inferior, but their ego just won't that happened.

    It's their internal struggles - ego versus instinct - that promoted some of them to act out in violence.

    As I said, I too got beaten up just because I ain't one of them, but so what?

    Why should I hide my own self just because someone else don't like who I am?

    Hey, I am born into this world not because I am destined to follow dumbasses. I am born into this world to do what I must do - that is, to be myself.

    Yes, I got beaten up, but that didn't affect my determination to be my own self, not even a bit.

    I hold my head high because I know that I am not guilty of anything. The guilty party is THEM, not me.

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Hold your head high ! by fsck1nhippies · · Score: 1

      Yep, I agree 100%, but I also know that it does not end there. Everyone who succeeds at something will be attacked by those who did not.

    2. Re:Hold your head high ! by stanlyb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And once you are tagged as not a team player, guess what will happen with your career...

    3. Re:Hold your head high ! by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 1

      Like pretty much every other Slashdotter, I had to deal bullying. Part of it though, is not being so pick-onable. I was able to excel at math and science while playing sports and making friends. I actually enjoyed my time in high school and undergraduate without feeling like I needed to hide anything. You can be intelligent, it's when you flaunt it and deliberately try to make others feel inferior that they lash out. There will always be the outliers that will hurt for the sake of their own sadism.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    4. Re:Hold your head high ! by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or maybe you were just an easy target and in response you had to justify this somehow. So you make up these head games about how those who wronged you "instinctively knew you were superior" so you can maintain YOUR ego.

      When really you were just an easy target in the wrong place and the wrong time; nothing more

    5. Re:Hold your head high ! by demonlapin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sports are an easy, reliable way to gain a group of people who - even if you're not really friends - will get your back. Alas, too often overlooked by the geek. You don't even have to play - while the "managers" as we called them weren't part of the core football team, they too would be protected, because these were the guys who came running with the cold water during time-outs. Being friends with the football team is useful.

    6. Re:Hold your head high ! by Whiteox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hold my head high because I know that I am not guilty of anything.

      Oh but you are! In a minor way. How many times did you not answer the Q because you wanted to give others a chance of answering or working it out?

      Rhetorically, stuff that appears comparitively simple - like an answer regarding the comprehension of the topic (no mentation required) should be available to all members of an attentive class. Why jump in? That denies others in the cohort.
      Then, when skills like interpretation, inference and other words beginning with 'i' are required to produce an answer, becomes a race! Who get's there first? That competitive aspect may appear to be fun in the short term but if there is only one or two answering all the time, the others who can work it out given time, become depressed, consequently losing their motivation resulting in underachievement.
      This happens in gifted classes as well.
      The ability to have pinpoint attention and all the other associative skills is surely the gift and shouldn't be conditional on the speed of response. Slow and careful is just as valuable as a rapid intuitive response.

      I do take your point but these dumbasses never realised that they could achieve given the right environment ~ and that doesn't really matter does it?

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    7. Re:Hold your head high ! by Kjella · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Concealing your true skill level is something different than slacking down to that level. As long as you're getting into the schools you want, it absolutely doesn't matter what your junior high grades were after you finish college/university - and most bright kids do go on to higher education. Knowing this is a temporary situation some kids may be simply showing a bit of street smarts by not provoking an inferiority complex, I don't think just among bullies but also among your social circle that consider themselves your peers. As people grow up they'll act less immature about it and they can return to their true skill level.

      The only exception for that is if you're bright enough to skip classes/years, but that has its own sets of pros and cons. I've met a few that were clearly math wizards, at 10-12 they were dealing with math for 15-20 year olds and had accelerated classes with much older students. And they were all kind of odd and I don't mean because they were obviously bright and skilled, but they'd been hanging around older people so much they were like awkwardly premature adults. They saw kids their own age much like an older teen would see a bunch of brats and at the same time they didn't really fit in with the older ones either. If I knew I had a really bright kid I think I'd worry less about reaching his full genius potential and more on not raising a Sheldon.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    8. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong only the merely slightly above average were dumb enough to show it, the really smart ones were smart enough to figure out keeping your head down was the best option.

    9. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So are you intentionally hiding your understanding of English grammar, or are you authentically this bad at it?

    10. Re:Hold your head high ! by tbird81 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Those that bullied us bullied us because they felt inferior. They INSTINCTIVELY KNEW that they are inferior, but their ego just won't that happened.

      That explains Slashdot's constant attacks on people who are rich, or companies that make money.

      Just like we were called nerds because we did well in maths, so we will call those with charisma "douchebags" and those successful in business "greedy corporates". At Slashdot we call the police "stupid", call MS users "sheep", and we call others who didn't do as well academically in school "inferior".

      Who's guilty of bullying? And whose narcissistic nature is incapable of realising the irony in declaring superiority because of a higher physics score in junior high?

    11. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can be intelligent, it's when you flaunt it and deliberately try to make others feel inferior that they lash out.

      No, it's not. It's when the teacher tells everyone's grades and you're the top one. It's when you answer a question correctly because you find it challenging, and some dumbass calls you out as a "nerd" because you're not a waste of gene pool like him.

      You're right that if you decide to flaunt, you'll get targeted (and if you ask me, you get what you deserve..) But to think that bullying only (or mostly) happens after people brag about their intelligence is completely ridiculous.

    12. Re:Hold your head high ! by aurizon · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      There has been a change in the degree of supervision in schools from when I was in grade 4 in 1948. At that time we had separate boys and girls playgrounds, each of which had a teacher on duty. There were no hidden corners for bullying. The walk-in and walk-out halls had teachers in them. Bullying was at a low level in school. After school there was bullying, but it was avoidable in the diaspora of kids going home. I then went to high school. Teachers were present in all halls and stairwells at room change and in recess. Recess was co-ed and there were 2 teachers present. Lunch time was also supervised on school, and there were opportunities off-school at lunch and going home for bullying, but the level was low.
      Fast forward to 2010, ignoring cyber bullying, I see more bullying within high schools due to the lower level of teachers present in stairwells and halls. I can only attribute this to unions changing work rules and salaries so that it became too costly to use these staff that way, and in addition, they gained the right to avoid duty in the halls as a bargaining point, preferring the teachers lounge or outdoors for a short trip by car using the frequent single and double period gaps introduced by the new work rules.
      Cyber-bullying can only be prevented by an online overseer of all student communications via the internet or by text. All players would be known in full. No pen names or avatars for the school web. The internet would also need parental supervision so that a similar level of known communicants can be enforced there as well. Horrors, what's this? Loss of freedom? Perhaps it could be like a drivers license, learner period until 16, then wide open?
      This is where new ground needs to be made. None now know the lack of rules that governed drivers and cars back in 1900 when they first came in. The internet is now in that stage where it must progress from the wild west to a better governed society, and that may result in curbs to freedom.

    13. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have a name for people who don't instinctively know that they are superior to mostly everyone else: depressed. No one instinctively knows that they are inferior - that is only something you can determine by fighting your instincts. So you theory is bullshit. You are more likely to be right if you say that your bullies noticed that you acted as if you believed yourself to be superior and they didn't like that someone inferior was acting like that (remember, everything thinks mostly everyone else is inferior), so they bullied you. Or perhaps you were just a convenient target - the bullies probably preferred someone with whom they shared no friends and who was not good at any of the important things (what they consider important is bound to be whatever they themselves are good at).

      People don't bully because they feel inferior. They bully because they feel superior and because of that feeling they also feel that they can get away with it. Ask yourself this: at a workplace, who is more likely to be a bully; the one with the most powerful position or the one with the least powerful position?

    14. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never saw any of the bullies in my high school looking like they were trying to figure out the answer to a question. Sure, there may have been some kids who were working on an answer and they may have been frustrated by some people always answering questions. But most of the bullies were the ones who were drawing dicks in the workbook instead of listening to the teacher.

    15. Re:Hold your head high ! by Stormin · · Score: 1

      Damn straight. I took responsibility for video taping basketball games for both teams when I was in high school. If anyone wanted to bully me, they had to answer to the entire basketball team.

    16. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I got beaten up, but that didn't affect my determination to be my own self, not even a bit.

      I hold my head high because I know that I am not guilty of anything. The guilty party is THEM, not me.

      I got bullied to when I was a kid, I am still attending counselling to repair the psychological damage that happened as a result. The reason was unexpectd even to myself.

      I did not sheild my talents at school where maths, science and technology was my obvious passion. I often ran, avoided, hid and did all sorts of convoluted things to avoid bullies until they finally cornered me. Unfortunately for them, and unknown to me, I was exceptionally good at violence. Much like the scene in Enders game, the bullies ended up hospitalised on the occasions it occured.

      I am not proud of that memory which just left me in tears, but the discipline and control I have had to excert over the years when encountering more sophisticated bullies in the work place has presented an equally painful challenge. I promised myself I would absolutely not be like bullies and have had to develop equaly sophisticated methods to counteract their unwelcome attacks.

      However it is important to stand up to bullies so they know you are not afraid to take whatever measures required to defend yourself. Bullying is the scourge of modern society and witnessing it's devestating effects on people I know is the one reason I have never been ashamed to give them back their own medicine.

      Standing up to bullies is the only way to maintain your own mental health so that you can conduct your career professionally.

    17. Re:Hold your head high ! by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      There were those of us who had brain and brawn, beaten up, no, the odd fight certainly, ostracised definitely, meh. Hiding intellect to fit it, a sensible adoption to a society that worships "From The Gut Thinking" and routinely publicly lambasts "Intellectual Elites", for being, 'er' 'um', well intellectual elites and knowing the difference between for profit lies and the truth.

      The problem is not the schools the problem of course is in idiot shit head narcissistic fuckers like Glen Beck, Bill OReilly, Rush Limbaugh and many other right wing morons who attack those "Intellectual Elites" for pointing out the for profit lies. When politicians join in the game and launch prejudicial attacks on fellow citizens, well, you end up with a fucked up society that celebrates stupidity.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    18. Re:Hold your head high ! by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      That explains Slashdot's constant attacks on people who are rich, or companies that make money.

      Aside from QE, money is a zero sum game. If you make $10, you didn't "make" it, you got it from someone else. When you gain too much, there's an implication that you got some of it by less-than-desirable means. Also, some people hate others because they hate themselves. "I could have done that, he's not so smart" He may not be that smart, but he was that lucky. Then there are those like Trump. He (or companies bearing his name) have declared bankruptcy 4 or 5 times, and he's still come out a billionaire. While doing that, he aligned with those who changed bankruptcy laws to prevent discharge of student loans. That level of hypocrisy is expected in the uber rich, and is one of the things that gains them such attacks.

    19. Re:Hold your head high ! by AF_Cheddar_Head · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why is showing your intelligence considered flaunting but excelling on the athletic field considered the, thing to do and celebrated?

    20. Re:Hold your head high ! by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      I can only attribute this to unions changing work rules and salaries so that it became too costly to use these staff that way, and in addition, they gained the right to avoid duty in the halls as a bargaining point, preferring the teachers lounge or outdoors for a short trip by car using the frequent single and double period gaps introduced by the new work rules.

      Not to disrupt your anti-union rant, but the issue is that they are simply not asked to. They are required to be in their classrooms, and not in the halls. If they were in the halls, they wouldn't be in the classrooms. If they are in the halls, they aren't in the bathrooms. There were always places away from others. Teachers can't be everywhere. The difference is that the parents are worse. The parents are the boomers and the boomers children, and they were raised to be poor parents. Blame the previous generation for all the problems of this. Reagan tripled the debt for us. Sure, Obama didn't fix it, but then neither did Bush before him. The problems are delayed to decrease immediate pain and pass it along to the next generation.

    21. Re:Hold your head high ! by mellon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because the guys who do well on the athletic field are better at punching people they don't like than the guys from the chess club. At least, that's how it was when I was in school.

      For me, sports were not in any sense easy. I never played any kind of eye-hand coordination games or running games with my parents outside of school, so I sucked at them, and had no idea that I only sucked because I hadn't practiced. The "smart kid who plays sports" dodge is great if you can pull it off, but it's not just a matter of choice—you have to be fortunate enough to be able to actually pull it off, or it's just another reason to get punched.

      The really sad thing about all this advice is that kids, whether they are jocks or geeks, are dumb shits when it comes to understanding things social. It takes years of practice to get good at it. You can fake it 'til you make it if you're at the top of the heap, but the bottom line is that I, and probably most of the kids I knew in school, even the popular kids, could _really_ have used some instruction on how to behave well in social interactions with our peers. Unfortunately, I never got any of that, and neither did they, so I learned it by trial and error over the next thirty years or so. I don't know how it worked out for them.

    22. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Depends entirely upon the teams culture. Some include everyone, some will have internal bullying.

    23. Re:Hold your head high ! by russotto · · Score: 1

      The really sad thing about all this advice is that kids, whether they are jocks or geeks, are dumb shits when it comes to understanding things social. It takes years of practice to get good at it.

      On the contrary; both jocks and geeks are quite good at social things. But being good at it doesn't mean being high in the hierarchy. Jocks are good at being alpha and beta, geeks are good at being omega. Some people are just destined to be bottom dog.

    24. Re:Hold your head high ! by aurizon · · Score: 2

      Read with more care. I am describing changes over my lifetime. When I was young, the teachers did all these things. Then you get automatic cost of living increases
      called COLA, and add 2-3% annual increase and add benefits and pensions, and restrictive work rules so teachers could not do those tasks. The socialists wanted extra bodies for those, and there was not enough 44. They have broken the system, it now cannot be sustained. There is not now, nor will there ever be enough money to pay all the underfunded pensions of state, federal and civic employees - even if you take 100% of the wages from the other workers it is not enough, just do the math. We are going the way Greece and Spain went - but 10-15 years behind them - unless we change and fire all those workers (Reagan/Thatcher style) or force them to reduce wages and pensions to sustainable levels. Part of this is the lower birth rate boomer problem, but it is real. And guess what - I am a retired teacher, and I recall how we asked for COLA and 2-3% extra plus benefits, and we packed the school boards with supporters who approved these increases and we went after the common man via property taxes. It looked good, but then the reduction in birth rate ruined this scheme.
      So we need to change it, or all levels of government will go bankrupt and the judges will toss out the high wages and high pensions and force reality upon us.

    25. Re:Hold your head high ! by tqk · · Score: 1

      ... the really smart ones were smart enough to figure out keeping your head down was the best option.

      Sometimes, you ACs really piss me off. So, you agree that the smart kids in the summary were doing the smart thing in submitting to bullies, lying low, trying to hide their ability?

      I could write an essay detailing a thousand things wrong with what you wrote there. You're not worth the effort. The last bully who picked on me was fawning and grovelling at my feet the next day ashamed at what he'd tried, and failed miserably, to do to me. I knew all along that he would and anything he did to me wasn't going to be in the least permanent, and I'd end up with the upper hand.

      He wasn't really all that bad a guy once you got to know him. He was just intimidated by people who were smarter than him. He had no idea why.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    26. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep fighting! the bullies represent a new kind of Neanderthal. You will win!

    27. Re:Hold your head high ! by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Ah, so when you were a teacher, you worked as hard as you could to screw everyone else. Now, when you are no longer one and are retired, you want your SS and to have everyone else pay for you, while you pay for nobody else. And you claim those trying to help the children now are socialists...

    28. Re:Hold your head high ! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2

      I hold my head high because I know that I am not guilty of anything.

      Oh but you are! In a minor way. How many times did you not answer the Q because you wanted to give others a chance of answering or working it out?

      Look man, there's something known as "Intelligence" and there's something else which is called "Wisdom".
       
      Be able to answer the question is nothing.
       
      Knowing WHEN to answer the question takes real wisdom.
       
      I did not (and still do not) blurb out answers just because I can, I will only do so _after_ everybody else (mostly from the "doh!" category) in the room were stumped.
       

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    29. Re:Hold your head high ! by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Because the guys who do well on the athletic field are better at punching people they don't like than the guys from the chess club. At least, that's how it was when I was in school.

      I was a member of the chess club and by the end of Jr high school I was pretty good at punching and kicking people. Once you show that you're willing to do it and capable of doing it, people stop pushing you. I think it's often a good idea to get children into martial arts. Teach them to be humble and to walk away whenever possible but when they have no choice about it, make sure they understand that you will support them for defending themselves.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    30. Re:Hold your head high ! by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 2

      What's so surprising is that the current crop of intelligent people have actually succumbed to the bullies by the inferiority complex sufferers.

      I too, and many like me in my generation, and those before me, had gone through the gauntlet of taunts and shovings and beatings, just because we think differently.

      Those that bullied us bullied us because they felt inferior. They INSTINCTIVELY KNEW that they are inferior, but their ego just won't that happened.

      It's their internal struggles - ego versus instinct - that promoted some of them to act out in violence.

      As I said, I too got beaten up just because I ain't one of them, but so what?

      Why should I hide my own self just because someone else don't like who I am?

      Hey, I am born into this world not because I am destined to follow dumbasses. I am born into this world to do what I must do - that is, to be myself.

      Yes, I got beaten up, but that didn't affect my determination to be my own self, not even a bit.

      I hold my head high because I know that I am not guilty of anything. The guilty party is THEM, not me.

      You got beat up because you're selfish and inconsiderate. That makes you inferior, not superior. I expect you sacrificed large aspects of the human experience in your efforts to forge yourself into a useful tool for others to use, and tell yourself constantly that your usefulness makes you better than others who didn't decide to sacrifice themselves in that way, but it doesn't. I get it because I used to be just like you, before I learned humility.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    31. Re:Hold your head high ! by fearofcarpet · · Score: 1

      Sports are an easy, reliable way to gain a group of people who - even if you're not really friends - will get your back. Alas, too often overlooked by the geek. You don't even have to play - while the "managers" as we called them weren't part of the core football team, they too would be protected, because these were the guys who came running with the cold water during time-outs. Being friends with the football team is useful.

      I played baseball from T-ball to my sophomore year in high school. And I sucked. When I got up to bat with two outs and a runner on second, the team was already putting on their gloves in anticipation of my inevitable pop up, but they never ever told me I sucked--they acted ambivalent at worst and seemed genuinely concerned when I was knocked unconscious by a pitch to the head. I went on to injure my shoulder badly and had to quit, but even after playing only one year of sports and sucking badly at it, I was in some sort of special club that exempted me from bullying from the jocks (the maladjusted rednecks and sociopaths were a different story). The coaches even said hi to me in the halls for the next three years.

      --
      Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
    32. Re:Hold your head high ! by Enigmafan · · Score: 1

      I did not (and still do not) blurb out answers just because I can, I will only do so _after_ everybody else (mostly from the "doh!" category) in the room were stumped.

      So you wait until you are sure that everyone does not know the answer and then you show everyone just how smart you are?
      Intelligent... Perhaps. Wisdom... Not really no.

    33. Re:Hold your head high ! by spiritplumber · · Score: 0

      I agree. It's not even the physical thing - I was bullied regularly up to grade 10 (out of of 13, this was in Italy) after which I had a growth spurt and grew some muscles out of being crew on a charter sailboat as a summer job. The harassing stopped instantly after I beat the crap out of three people in full view of a couple dozen, but I didn't get any more popular (The principal, a very old fashioned gentleman, only gave me some extra homework for the class he was teaching as punishment and privately congratulated me on finally fighting back). I mostly still ate lunch by myself, only people got out of the way when I sat. Made my friends' lives quite a bit easier, though.

      --
      Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
    34. Re:Hold your head high ! by Chatsubo · · Score: 2

      I agree with every point here, and it's all gung-ho to say "to hell with the world!", but that makes acquiring and keeping friends quite difficult.

      Never had your lines of conversation at parties shut down because 1/2 the people in the room didn't understand a word of it? "But how about that game last night! Right?!". Isn't this article essentially about the same thing?

      They're not bullies in the "wedgie" sense of the word, but in the end your adult friends can also be "bullies" in more subtle ways, and then there's the spouses. You and Bob from work can relate about that interface design you're working on, but his wife is standing there bored to death because she has no clue what you're on about.

      Yeah, that's right, as much as talk about the Lakers game may bore you, your droning on about NAS's has the same effect on other people. And they like it just as little as you do. Social situations require some give-and-take. I'm not surprised "bullies" start to feel alienated by people who insist on talking down to them. I'm even less surprised that smarter people react by adjusting. They *are* smart after all!

      --
      > no, yes, maybe (tagging beta)
    35. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Studies actually show that bullies very often are emotionally scarred from a really really bad home situation, often being bullied and roughed up themselves. Small kids are taking the frustration from somewhere, not always, but often enough to be significant. Nerds just happen to be the easiest target of superior violence, until they learn to avoid or deal with it in some way.

      Hating the bully never helps. Understanding them and growing out of their clutches do.

      Captcha: apology ;-)

    36. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My 12 year old son was accelerated (against our wishes due to lack of social skills) from foundation to year 2 due to exceptional Maths and Reading ability, when he reached yr 6 they realised he was too young to take the exam for the local selective grammar school (Public school for USAians) so he had to take year 6 again which led to a lot of trouble not least as they just repeated the same curriculum he had already excelled at. He was mainly left alone with a laptop running a program called mymaths and having realised he had been signed onto the secondary curriculum he proceeded to look at tjhe "interesting" units so he taught himself some of the A-Level trig units (A-Levels are the pre University exams for USAians), he then aced the entrance exam for the local grammar but has a hugely disparate set of maths skills and is missing a lot of the basic proofs behind methods etc etc. Luckily we heard about a brand new specialist maths course at a Public (private for USAians) School 100 miles form us. They run extra maths as an add on to the curriculum and whilst they will take the y11 GCSE in maths at the end of y9 it is actually about looking at the history of maths, different approaches to problems, basic proofs etc all taught by a Professor of Mathematical Education, who is linked to the school. He is taught in a group of 4 and as they were looking for exceptional mathematiciancs to launch the scheme they have given such a large bursary/scholarship that we are paying less than his food / school travel would have been if he was at the local school. Also being at a school with other exceptional people (they have a long term specialism in musicians and he shares a dormitory with a 12 year old Grade 8 pianist/composer and a 13 year old Grade 8 violinist/mathematician) there is no pressure to hide his talent and in fact it is celebrated and he knows his scholarship depends upon reasonable progress. He is actually off to a Maths workshop at the local Uni on Saturday with the other 3 specialist mathematicians plus 2 from set 1 maths who are specialist musicians so can't be on the specialist maths scheme (timetabling) to take part in a session on Game Theory (or it might be flexagons whatever they are).

    37. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said.

    38. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "too would be protected, because these were the guys who came running with the cold water during time-outs."

      Bringing sweets to the brute-squad cannot protect everyone.

    39. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Keep fighting! the bullies represent a new kind of Neanderthal. "

      You have 4% Neanderthal DNA because they fucked you then and they'll fuck you now.

    40. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh but you are! In a minor way. How many times did you not answer the Q because you wanted to give others a chance of answering or working it out?

      While I understood the subject the first time it was explained (back in first grade I actually asked my parents why the math teacher explained everything three times, when I understood it the first time), could work out the answer, and usually got it right on the first try, I was not fast. The teacher would often ask me before I finished working out the answer, and I would then answer a few seconds later, when I had the answer.

      That did not prevent me from being bullied, and with time, I did get faster (or rather, the assignments got more complex, making everyone else have to really think about the problem also). But it also taught me that I didn't need to put up my finger to show that I had the answer, as I would be asked anyway. Which later got me low grades when it came to class participation.

    41. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...we will call.. ...and we call others...

      Oh, 'we' do all these things do we? Who is this 'we'? All of /.? A few idiots? Just you? It's certainly not me.

    42. Re:Hold your head high ! by bgarcia · · Score: 2

      We were quite lucky in the chess club at my highschool. We had the star running back and linebacker in our club. Nobody made fun of chess club.

      --
      I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
    43. Re:Hold your head high ! by azalin · · Score: 1

      He was just intimidated by people who were smarter than him. He had no idea why.

      Because people fear what they cannot understand or control. Fear often leads to violence, because violence gives you back the feeling of control.

    44. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is showing your intelligence considered flaunting but excelling on the athletic field considered the, thing to do and celebrated?

      It's not. Try running cross country. Nerd Sport.

      Look, bullying has always happened, to a more or lesser extent based on the administration and the school. But now that we have the internet, and the jock-o types are getting virtually beat up because they can't fight with words, the bullying MUST be stopped immediately! At all costs! Our prized star football players' self-esteem and more importantly, game performance, is on the line here people.

      Seriously, I'm sick of this shit. Nobody cared about bullying as long as the "right" type of kids were doing it and the "wrong" type of kids were receiving it. But now that the field is more level due to technology, suddenly the same people who supported and encouraged physical bullying are screaming bloody murder.

    45. Re:Hold your head high ! by aurizon · · Score: 2

      We knew what we were doing, some teachers are smarter than others. Early in your career, your wages are quite low. Teachers have an incremented scale, with years of service and acquired teaching skills both allowing movement up the grid and across it. Both motions are in the direction of increased salary.
      Those low on both grids are the keenest - obviously. I almost peaked out on both grids, being an engineer and having a masters - PhD would get more, but the time to get a PhD by taking a leave and returning was a lower, in retrospect, getting the PhD right after the MaSc would have given me a higher present peak, but after being in school for 6 years, I was daunted at 2-3? more for the PhD and I opted for a high start in industry. 10 years later, my industry got lean, there were layoffs in production and shrinkage in engineering staff, and I took the year in teachers college and with industry credits and education credits, I started high on both grids, so I was contented compared to industry. Family etc also change your perspective. Working in a militant union work place made the teachers milieu normal. As time went by, I came to see that the system inputs to teaching, being the tax base, and the costs of salaries and pensions coupled with the lower birth rate had made a toxic spiral. Many have done the math. Many cities are financially ruined as they gave too much in wages and pensions to too many people for their tax base to support. The unions own accountants know this, they want divine rescue (government = liberals and democrats). The mass of the people do not want to save this small elite group with increased taxes and never ending wage demands when they themselves do not have wages as good or pensions as good as the complainers. It is not hard to do the math. Do not blind yourself to reality. Look at the stupid Greeks, rioting in the streets will not work. Change their politicians and tax those who have evaded taxes as well as reform = the only way. The USA is on that same slippery slope, but not as steep as the Greeks and Spaniards, so we have time to change. We need to change.

    46. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ironically, that statement is sometimes used to bully people.

    47. Re:Hold your head high ! by tibit · · Score: 1

      That's pretty much what my mother always says: nobody really gives a shit if you started walking at 9 months of age and talking full sentences at 15. Same goes for K-12 grades. As an employer I certainly wouldn't give a damn.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    48. Re:Hold your head high ! by tibit · · Score: 1

      How the fuck is it being selfish and inconsiderate to realize that yes, the bullies are often inferior dumbasses. Stating the obvious doesn't make you any less humble. World is full of useless people, get over it.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    49. Re:Hold your head high ! by SlideRuleGuy · · Score: 1

      Studies (don't have time to look up the Scientific American article at the moment; it was entitled "Violent Pride") show that bullies are most often narcissists. In other words, they bully because their self-esteem is actually pathologically high. They believe themselves to be above the rules, and so can abuse whoever they choose. It's not an inferiority complex that they suffer from.

      The traditional story of bullies being low self-esteem sufferers is a myth, and needs to be dispelled as quickly as possible, because it results in all the wrong sorts of solutions.

    50. Re:Hold your head high ! by BVis · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call that ironic. Just because you've graduated from high school/college doesn't mean you won't run into bullies anymore. We have a few of them in positions of power where I work; they know their skills are outdated and the only reason they don't get canned is because 1) They have a "C" in their title, and 2) they have institutional knowledge that they have deliberately not shared.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    51. Re:Hold your head high ! by BVis · · Score: 1

      "I'm on the brute squad!"

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    52. Re:Hold your head high ! by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 2

      Fuck the team. It's just an euphemism for "herd".

      Sincerely,
      I

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    53. Re:Hold your head high ! by BVis · · Score: 1

      Sometimes, you ACs really piss me off. So, you agree that the smart kids in the summary were doing the smart thing in submitting to bullies, lying low, trying to hide their ability?

      Some people don't like getting their faces flushed down the toilet every day. No, it's not right, but it happens. Your best bet is to shut your mouth, get good grades, and get the fuck out of Dodge.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    54. Re:Hold your head high ! by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 1

      I never played sports, but genetically I was lucky, I was always taller and stronger than the bullies, so I didn't have to fight. I still got made fun of, had a bunch of nerdy friends who also got bullied, but because they hung out with me, they were protected.

      Also, I would pick the biggest, dumbest kid I could find, and help him out with tests and homework. After that nobody messed with us. It's nice to have a bodyguard. Although, some of the gang members scared me when they offered to kill somebody for me when he bumped me in the hall.

    55. Re:Hold your head high ! by tqk · · Score: 1

      So, you agree that the smart kids in the summary were doing the smart thing in submitting to bullies, lying low, trying to hide their ability?

      Some people don't like getting their faces flushed down the toilet every day. No, it's not right, but it happens. Your best bet is to shut your mouth, get good grades, and get the fuck out of Dodge.

      No, your best bet is to publicly humiliate him, and there's a million ways to do that. Your way is the coward's way. I don't want to merely survive bullying. I want him to learn a lesson in humility that he'll never forget or get over, so he'll never want to bully anyone else in the future.

      If someone slaps you, don't slap 'em back. Hit 'em with a baseball bat! Make it so their sisters break out in giggles every time they show their face in public. The choice is tough love, or you're encouraging another potential Jeffrey Dahmer.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    56. Re:Hold your head high ! by danhaas · · Score: 1

      I think there is some truth in his "head games", but your argument is good too.

      One thing that helped me get through bullying was martial arts; after a few months of practice, I wouldn't be able to outright beat the bullies, but I would at least be willing to put up a fight.

      The boost in self-confidence that martial arts gave me made me a tougher target and they moved on.

      But I was an easy target also because I didn't really belong there, with those people. I was naturally isolated.

      It doesn't matter how tough you are, if you think differently, you will be a target.

    57. Re:Hold your head high ! by bibliophage · · Score: 1

      And they were all kind of odd and I don't mean because they were obviously bright and skilled, but they'd been hanging around older people so much they were like awkwardly premature adults. They saw kids their own age much like an older teen would see a bunch of brats and at the same time they didn't really fit in with the older ones either.

      That was me. They held me back academically because I couldn't relate to my peers, and I didn't fit in with the older kids either. I also spoke to adults on their level (and sometimes with a better vocabulary), which caused its own set of problems.

      If I knew I had a really bright kid I think I'd worry less about reaching his full genius potential and more on not raising a Sheldon.

      This is the key. Socialize your kids, even if they don't want it. They don't want to eat veggies either, but it's still good for them.

      --
      There are four boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    58. Re:Hold your head high ! by GoDj1rrA · · Score: 1

      So just join a gang for protection then? Your advice is to hang out with people who are "not really friends" and be their water boy.

    59. Re:Hold your head high ! by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      As long as you get the job you want it absolutely doesn't matter what your degree is or what your GPA was.
      As long as you get into the university you want it absolutely doesn't matter what your highschool GPA was or what AP classes you took.
      As long as you get tracked into the honors system or get into the prestigious highschool, it doesn't matter how smart you look in jr. high.

      So what do you say when a jr. high kid asks you if schoolwork is important?

    60. Re:Hold your head high ! by anyGould · · Score: 1

      Why is showing your intelligence considered flaunting but excelling on the athletic field considered the, thing to do and celebrated?

      Because at most schools, athletics reflects directly on the school's prestige - therefore the school signals that Athletics Is Good. Meanwhile, they'll pay a lot of lip service to academics and the arts, but follow the money - the sports team just got five or six-figures of funding for a new scoreboard or uniforms or field; how much did drama get?

      This is a pet peeve of mine; one year our school band blew the doors off the provincial competition - junior and senior. Silvers and Golds (and one Gold with Honors). School put a note in the newsletter. Meanwhile there's a two-hour mandatory "pep rally" for the various sports teams - most of which didn't manage to even quality for provincials that year.

      Schools want to reward academics? Then start treating your smart kids the way you treat your sports kids.

    61. Re:Hold your head high ! by Kjella · · Score: 1

      So what do you say when a jr. high kid asks you if schoolwork is important?

      I'd say that learning is important, grades are a side effect. If the kid is cramming for exams to short term boost their grade over making it stick they're hurting themselves. That they should focus on understanding the subject whether it's on the curriculum or not, that teaching for the test is another short time boost with little to no long term effect. I won't lie to them that eventually you are going to get very grade-focused towards the end but nothing is won or lost on whether you got an A or B in junior high. That is assuming the kid is on a level where he has the "luxury" of thinking long term, not if he's at the risk of failing or not get accepted to the school they want.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    62. Re:Hold your head high ! by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      and those before me, had gone through the gauntlet of taunts and shovings and beatings, just because we think differently.

      sounds like what many adults put up with in daily life.

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
    63. Re:Hold your head high ! by celle · · Score: 1

      "You got beat up because you're selfish and inconsiderate."

          And those that were beating him up were they any less selfish and inconsiderate? The parent my be sounding a bit arrogant but you're being a hypocrite. He was abused because those that could chose to do so. In the end it came down to a choice to take violent action when it wasn't needed and in a non-violent context.

    64. Re:Hold your head high ! by BVis · · Score: 1

      No, your best bet is to publicly humiliate him, and there's a million ways to do that. Your way is the coward's way. I don't want to merely survive bullying. I want him to learn a lesson in humility that he'll never forget or get over, so he'll never want to bully anyone else in the future.

      And then he brings a gun to school and shoots you dead.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    65. Re:Hold your head high ! by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      You want what works, or you want me to lie to you with sugary words?

    66. Re:Hold your head high ! by celle · · Score: 1

      "We knew what we were doing,"

          And so did the politicians, accountants, right down to various members of the public, who kept on spending like drunken sailors when times were good instead of practicing proper restraint and responsible behavior by controlling spending and saving for the bad times. Don't forget current generations of politicians raping responsible structures for bad times put in by previous generations for personal gain. Now we have kicking the can down the road and no accountability or responsibility for anything because the spoiled brat pack got what they wanted.

    67. Re:Hold your head high ! by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      As long as you get the job you want it absolutely doesn't matter what the degree was in or what your GPA was.
      As long as you get into the university you want it absolutely doesn't matter what your highscool GPA was or what AP classes you took.
      As long as you get tracked into the honor system or get into the prestigious highschool, it doesn't matter how smart you looked in jr. high

      So what do you tell the kids when they ask you if schoolwork is important?

    68. Re:Hold your head high ! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

      So you wait until you are sure that everyone does not know the answer and then you show everyone just how smart you are?

      Nope. But then, reading your comment I know that you too, are from the "Doh!" category.
       
      How would you feel if you asked a question to a roomful of people and nobody even bother to have the courtesy to answer??
       
      I answer simply because I do not want to disappoint the person (whether it be a teacher, a lecturer, or someone genuinely looking for a right answer) who asked that particular question.
       
      At least I got the courtesy.
       
      For you?
       
      Nah .... fat fucking chance !!
       

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    69. Re:Hold your head high ! by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      It's called a royal "we". (Maybe not.)

      What I was doing is generalising themes that often pervade Slashdot - I meant Slashdot as a whole. If you read here for any (greater than zero) length of time, you'll constantly hear nasty stuff being said about marketers, about "the 1%", about the cops, about business. And in the parent's comment, you hear that the other students were "inferior" to him!

      We is a shorter way of saying "many people on Slashdot", I'm sure it wasn't too cryptic. And no, I wasn't referring specifically to you, or even to a group including you. Just /. as a whole.

    70. Re:Hold your head high ! by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Right, the mind is a muscle. Exercise it and learn everything you can, it'll make you smart. And if you're smart you'll get tracked into the honor system or bumped up to the fancy school. And if you do well there, you'll get the scholarships and acceptance letters from the good universities. With a degree that matter and a good GPA, your first job will be the exciting and engaging sort which pays the big bucks. Overall you'll be successful. So study up kids, because this shit is important.

      Likewise, on the flip-side, if you relax and take whatever grade they give you, you'll be tracked as one of the dumb kids and most teachers will simply give up on you. (That's not official, and there are a lot of good exceptions, but it's pretty common). Post highschool, you can always get a loan, or use daddy's money, to get into a third-rate school and take an easy degree. If you graduate or no, work will be tougher to find (although it's largely a factor of how the economy is doing that decade) and good luck getting work in the field you actually studied. So you'll compromise and take a job pushing office papers, or menial labor. You can get by, but it's harder, and statistically a larger percentage of that lot will crack under the pressure and drop out of society. There's always a chance you'll get your shit together and start working hard and be one of those rags-to-riches stories, but their rarity is what makes them a story.

      Fun fact: There's a massive sliding scale between these two points. It even extrapolates beyond!

    71. Re:Hold your head high ! by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      What's so surprising is that the current crop of intelligent people have actually succumbed to the bullies by the inferiority complex sufferers.

      I too, and many like me in my generation, and those before me, had gone through the gauntlet of taunts and shovings and beatings, just because we think differently.

      Those that bullied us bullied us because they felt inferior. They INSTINCTIVELY KNEW that they are inferior, but their ego just won't that happened.

      It's their internal struggles - ego versus instinct - that promoted some of them to act out in violence.

      As I said, I too got beaten up just because I ain't one of them, but so what?

      Why should I hide my own self just because someone else don't like who I am?

      Hey, I am born into this world not because I am destined to follow dumbasses. I am born into this world to do what I must do - that is, to be myself.

      Yes, I got beaten up, but that didn't affect my determination to be my own self, not even a bit.

      I hold my head high because I know that I am not guilty of anything. The guilty party is THEM, not me.

      I too was bright, but I became bored with the grinding that the teacher had to dish out. Highschool was such a painful experience. At least two days a week, I was absent as I went to different movie houses. I saw more movies in my last two years of high school to last 10 years beyond.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    72. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to real life.

    73. Re:Hold your head high ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Inferior... Is that what u call someone who physically dominates u? Yeah cuz it makes u feel better.

  53. Someone tell liberal dem's to stop hiding... by 109+97+116+116 · · Score: 1

    That SOOO explains all my liberal democrat friends.

    I'll have to tell them all to stop hiding their intelligence, the bullies are all gone.

  54. Some Children Left Behind by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

    This may not be the most politically correct solution (or even legal), but how about we take all the bullies and otherwise just shitty students (you know, the ones that make it an absolute nightmare for those with actual talent to learn) out of regular classes, and put them in some school-work program that emphasizes career paths that are a better fit for them. Why keep leading them on like they have potential when the harsh reality is a lot of these types of students are not capable of anything other than menial work and only disrupt others around them during school. Holding them to a higher standard that they're just not mentally capable of just makes it terrible for everyone involved.

  55. you think your bettre n me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because you know how to work them numberz? I gona beat those numberz outa you! you think you all that yo? You ain't shit! you stoopid! no body carez you can reed them joodie bloom bookz. They's for fagitz like you! me an my posie gon wait for you after scool and shove them books and pensiles and watnot up yore ass yo. then i gona beat you ho mommas ass too fo makin such a ho like you. then I gon kick it wit my man wile you cryin, byatch!!!

  56. Speaking from experience... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It happened to me. I got beat up repeatedly for "fucking up the curve" in high school, but mostly for being the lone "cracker" in a sea of brown students.

    I ended up dropping out of high school because the administrators wouldn't do anything about it. I don't regret it, as it probably saved my life.

  57. Not limited to children by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 1

    Intelligence and / or academics are not looked upon favorably within the United States. You could have multiple doctorates, cure cancer, and broker peace on Earth and you would STILL rank behind, both in compensation and popularity ( insert the currently popular celebrity, or professional athlete here ).

    While not so much bullying once you become an adult, ( pissing off the people who fix your computer is on par with pissing off the folks who fix your food ) it does make for a damned annoying work environment. ( Unless you work for a company who employs extremely intelligent folks. Think Google. )

    The snide comments from those who know your little secret are never ending I assure you.

    This was actually brought up in the Mensa forums once upon a time about folks who hide their membership and why. Many related stories very similar in nature to my own experiences. Folks get turned down for jobs for being " too " smart, employee hostility, managements forever go to guy, etc.

    With few exceptions, if you DO fall into the category of higher than average intellect, I would highly suggest you put forth the extra effort to keep that information away from fellow employee ears lest you add some misery to your life. That, or remind them how tragic it would be to find their corporate system loaded with animal porn, clown fetish images and draft emails to the boss about your desire to smear yourself with Jello and run naked through the streets with nothing but an inflatable horse around your waist for clothing during the next security audit :D

    1. Re:Not limited to children by Stormin · · Score: 1

      When I read the summary, I figured the articles were from a United States source. I was quite surprised when reading the articles* to see they are from the other side of the pond. How much higher would those percentages be in the US?

      * If you think there's no reason to read the articles, then please get off my lawn!

  58. Lots of homophobia in the hacker ranks, too! by pewterbot9 · · Score: 0

    Bullying is mostly an expression of homophobia...which violent dogma is indoctrinated by parents, schools and churches at an early age. There is more than our share of homophobia in the hacker world too, including right here at "/.". How many times has someone posted words like "fagg*t," "c*cksucker," and the like, when expressing disdain for the MAFIAA and other anti-freedom groups? There should be ZERO TOLERANCE for homophobic slurs here, and in every other progressive/intelligent group. Just as there is for "n*gger". So, to you hackers and hacker wannabes who think you're "all that," because you are anti-gay: Do you /really/ want to have a civil war on your hands? Bring it on you breeder morons: I don't care if you really are a talented hacker, 'cause you're really just a piece of sh*t that pollutes everything good around it, including the air, the water, and any chance for a bright future. Game over (you sorry excuse for a) man!

  59. All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by gelfling · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The only way to deal with them is bash them. Sorry of that's not PC New York Times and soccer mommy friendly enough for you but that, fellow geeks and nerds is what you have to do.

    Someone bullies you, break their arm. If they and their thug friends come back at you break their heads. If their mommies and daddies complain tell them everyone can live in a new house after their burns to the ground.

    They're not human, they're animals and this is what you do with animals. You beat them until they stop.

    1. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by taustin · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Someone bullies you, break their arm. If they and their thug friends come back at you break their heads. If their mommies and daddies complain tell them everyone can live in a new house after their burns to the ground."

      You left out the quote attribution. Is that from Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold?

    2. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      Fortunately every nerd who has ever been bullied is secretly a martial arts expert with years of experience in street fighting.

    3. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by gelfling · · Score: 1

      George Washington.

    4. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by smugfunt · · Score: 1

      The only way to deal with them is bash them.

      Correct, though the rest of your post is too extreme. One good punch to the solar plexus and the bully will become your best friend if they are young or leave you alone if they are older. No need to go psycho on them.
      That's been my experience anyway.

    5. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      Not mine. One good punch to the bully, and they'll call out to their pack, and they'll all beat you until you're bleeding and can't cry out anymore.

      It's far more effective if an adult simply walks over and tells the bully to knock it off.

    6. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by russotto · · Score: 1

      Not mine. One good punch to the bully, and they'll call out to their pack, and they'll all beat you until you're bleeding and can't cry out anymore.

      Right. If you want a fighting chance, you've got to put the bully down and out before he gets any help.

      It's far more effective if an adult simply walks over and tells the bully to knock it off.

      The bully will then knock it off... around that adult.

    7. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by daemonenwind · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I wish it had been Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold. Littleton, CO would be better for it.

      In school, I was bullied too. Here's the kicker - my dad was a cop, gunsmith, and holder of a Federal Firearms License. Yes, that means he sold guns.

      My home had guns stacked like cordwood. I'm not exaggerating. I had my first rifle at age 11 and became very proficient - most of the guys on the force considered my dad the marksman of the group. Probably came from his stint in the military, but whatever. I think you get the picture. I knew my way around most guns, could hit what I wanted to, and had easy access to weapons of all sorts.

      Here's the thing. I never took the bully's shit. They called me a name, I embarrassed them. They put a tack on my chair, I stabbed them in the kneecap with my automatic pencil. By the time I got to the back half of high school, I had no problems with people whatsoever.

      You see, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold just sat there and took it. They tried to find an outlet for their rage - video games, violent movies, blowing stuff up in the woods - but in the end, it was never enough. Because they never learned to send the evil back where it came from.

      Hate is like acid. Try to contain it, and you become the only thing that can hold it - glass. And when you do shatter, it gets really damn messy.

      Eric and Dylan shattered. I never did, because I realized a long time earlier that holding it in was the path to self-destruction.

    8. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      does it matter? beat us down enough, we will hit back

    9. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by FoolishOwl · · Score: 1

      Not mine. One good punch to the bully, and they'll call out to their pack, and they'll all beat you until you're bleeding and can't cry out anymore.

      Right. If you want a fighting chance, you've got to put the bully down and out before he gets any help.

      The first stage of the bully's attack was encircling the victim with his pack. So, no, putting the bully down was never a possibility.

      It's far more effective if an adult simply walks over and tells the bully to knock it off.

      The bully will then knock it off... around that adult.

      That's already a significant improvement.

      Furthermore, in my experience of bullying, the bullies counted on the indifference of adults, and occasionally, tacit encouragement. On most occasions when I asked for help from an adult, the response was, "Shut up, you little faggot." (Incidentally, I don't believe I'd worked out my sexual orientation when I was eight.) I seriously doubt the bullies would have been so confident had adults intervened with any consistency. Of course, it's classic for bullies to threaten retaliation if the victim complains and a parent is informed, but that actually was relatively effective, at least in the case of parents who disapproved of bullying.

    10. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      Yeah! That'll show'em! Scorched earth, man! Retribution is the way forward! Peace through superior firepower! *Smashes beer tin on face*

      You sound like a religious fundamentalist, or a backwater redneck, neither of which have any business in civilised discourse. It's not that I don't agree with your opinion; Your opinion is just wrong. Wrong like denial of global warming, or believing in Creationism. You beat on the bully, and he finds another target. All you have done is shift the problem onto somebody else, which makes you no better than the bully. I don't pretend to know how to deal with bullies, but I do know that your way is wrong.

      Furthermore, your final statement is particularly inflammatory. I wonder if you believe an unruly dog should be beaten into submission? They are no better than a child, intelligence wise; They learn what they are taught. If you are cruel to a dog, it will grow to be cruel. The same applies to a child.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    11. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by jimicus · · Score: 1

      It's seldom necessary to go this far.

      IME, bullies pick on people they're pretty certain won't even talk back, much less fight. If they get the slightest inkling that you'll square up to them, 99 times out of 100 they back down.

      The problems start if you don't square up to them the minute you first meet them. At that point they're testing the water to see what they can get away with, and every inch you give will be meticulously noted. It's a hundred times easier to stop them taking that first inch than it is to stop them later on.

      "Square up" doesn't have to mean "Break their arm". Simply making it clear you won't tolerate such behaviour will usually do the trick.

      (This, by the way, is quite often where "problem kids" who are otherwise fine but occasionally snap come from. They keep putting up with crap until they eventually snap, and the result is usually rather a lot more violent. Let them get anywhere near firearms and you have Columbine all over again).

    12. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can someone with a 4 digit ID be so goddamn stupid? And get a 3 insightful for it yet?

      All of what you described is absolutely impossible when a) you're small, and b) they're twice your size and muscular, since they're generally as dumb as shit and muscles are the only thing they have.

      Or are you recommending that the child take a gun or a steel wrench or a knife with him? Because y'know, that's never caused problems, like forcing the victim to turn to desperate measures, attacking with weapons. And god help that kid if the bully wrestles the weapon from him, then you might as well just buy either his casket, or a lot of other ones.

    13. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You beat on the bully, and he finds another target. All you have done is shift the problem onto somebody else, which makes you no better than the bully.

      So are you suggesting we kill them? I grew up in the days before Colombine, but you are god damn right I considered it.

      I don't pretend to know how to deal with bullies, but I do know that your way is wrong.

      Well how is what GP suggested any different from "stand up to them and their pack of friends"? You had better be packing a weapon if you are going up against a group of people.

    14. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's seldom necessary to go this far.

      IME, bullies pick on people they're pretty certain won't even talk back, much less fight. If they get the slightest inkling that you'll square up to them, 99 times out of 100 they back down.

      Ahem... Bull Fucking Shit. Even if you were right, bullies travel in packs, if the one socially outcast kid turns out to be some martial arts master; they just have their group of 5 friends beat on him. Bullies are not going to pick on a kid when there is nobody around to watch. Their friends standing by to watch can easily turn into combatants if someone puts up a fight.

      I am not saying "don't fight back". I am just saying I wish i carried a blackjack or some easily concealable weapon around with me. I suppose in today's schools that would get the person being bullied kicked out of school.

    15. Re:All the 'anti bullying' efforts are bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be in the "you stand to stand up to them and they will leave you alone" crowd. Why would the bully leave you alone if they can swat you like a fly. They love easy victories and will happily beat the hell out of someone they know stands no chance. But they are not allowed to use a weapon or have any outside help. So how the fuck are kids supposed to stand up to someone much bigger to them?

  60. This is to be expected by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

    Our society rewards bullies* and punishes those who try to defend themselves against them.

    *Look at who gets the highest positions in their occupations. The bully who pushes hardest for it. The alphas.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  61. don't hide on a sports team as they have there own by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    don't hide on a sports team as they have there own type of bullying.

  62. The problem with survey data is . . . by taustin · · Score: 1

    It's hard to tell the difference between those who deliberately underachieve to avoid being bullied, and those who need an excuse for bad grades so they won't lose their television privileges.

    So, to put back in the implied words, we have:

    "Almost half of children and young people (49.5%) have claimed to have played down a talent for fear of being bullied,"

    1. Re:The problem with survey data is . . . by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      I don't doubt the study was biased simply because it was conducted by the group trying to get more funding. The survey had questions like "if you liked chess, would you join the chess club" and answers like "my friends would tease me about it" translated to bullying. The questions about bullying are didn't tally the severity or frequency. It's like going to a college and asking students if they ever got shitfaced (even once) and then claiming 90% of the student body has a drinking problem.

  63. Extra: people don't people who are different by Kittenman · · Score: 1

    Details at 11.

    --
    "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
  64. ITT: Nerds trying to be top dog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nerds tease jocks for being stupid and denigrate the value of physical prowess. Jocks tease nerds for their intelligence and denigrate the value of intellect. Bimbos vs uggos, white v black, young v old: it's all the same. Everyone wants their talents to be considered the most valuable. This "survey" is just one group tyring to win the social status war via the "bullying" trojan horse.

  65. This coin of life has two tails, prove otherwise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Parents were too selfish to work more jobs to pay for private school for me. Life was all about them until they had to move in with children as is the case with my mother who lives with her daughter.

    Residing in the top 10% of math class usually means alcohol metabolism issues and everyone here knows what that means: A*S*I*A*N!

    Smart people who tried acting cool were further brutalized. These were called faggots.

    66 Lifting weights never killed anyone in this age group (at least I don't think) 99

    At the risk of blowing my cover, I posited the following equation in high school: WB + IQ = C (weight benched plus IQ equals a constant). Weights and books are mutually exclusive. It's how the universe is, like where is the anti-matter?

    Parents were further punishment. Parents bullied kids for not fighting back. Remember, this was the age before Pat Benatar sang about child abuse in "Hell is for Children". Only then did child abuse leap into existence and rise to legitimate societal attention.

    I still don't believe how I did it, but I aced the Calculus final exam in senior year, blowing the curve and causing a number of people to fail the course. I had at least three things against me: white, Christian, and male. It was possible then, but it is impossible now.

    I can understand the "chem person", and that is why I took College Chemistry as soon as I could. It provided me the means by which I solved my bully problem. I ate pork then and I still eat pork, so no I am not one of those.

    As for young people who play chess, it's their way of serving notice on society that they are plotting and planning and generally up to no good.

    As for life in general, Obama will "do the right thing" in arm-twisting the H of R to ramp up the expatriation tax to discourage assholes who come here, make a fortune, and run back and live like gods in their native lands. I know of a number of classmates that have planned this since they could not help to brag about it under the influence of alcohol at the last High School Reunion.

    As for being hammered, don't be a nail, be an ANVIL.

  66. No one cared about grades when I was at school by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 2

    Picked on for being smart? Not where I'm from.

    I graduated in the early 2000's, and no one ever cared about any one else's grades or smarts. The people who got low grades didn't care about grades, or just joked about how low they could get their GPA. Those with a high GPA never caught flak for it. The low achievers didn't care; they were focused on their own little world.

    Not to say no one ever got picked on. I distinctly remember the guy who almost lit me on fire with a zippo on the school bus, but that was because I was a small and easy target.

  67. Re:You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarde by Eightbitgnosis · · Score: 2

    Ummmm *checks the list*

    'This is not funny. This is bullying. This is wrong.'

  68. Much worse for black students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is an especially large problem within the African American community. Students who perform well in school are teased for being "white."

  69. and this is why .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We should now give the jobs to those smart enough to have achieved not-that-high grades.

    hint : they also happen to be well connected

  70. Well done America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cue every single high school movie from the last 30 years, where there's a group of nerds suffering some form of bullying. That's right, your kids watched this shit and now they think they need to emulate it.

  71. Re:So? What's new? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    1) It is news because it provides scientific evidence of casual observation. That is very valuable.
    2) It is also news because the fact that it is confirmed in the UK means that it can be tested elsewhere in the world. I suspect that this happens much less in Asian cultures. Perhaps the study should be conducted there too?

  72. What is it with the false surprise? by composer777 · · Score: 1

    The only thing I find surprising is that someone in power actually cares enough to measure this sort of thing. They've known about this for decades.

  73. Bullshit! I Was Bullied By The Other Smart Kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I call bullshit.

    Any group of individuals will eventually find someone to bully or repress for one reason or another. Even the so called "smart kids."

    In the 1970's era of grand social and educational experiments, I was part of an experimental group that was segregated into an accelerated academic program. This was a forerunner of today's "Gifted & Talented" program. We called it 7th & 1/2 grade for lack of a better term.

    The class was constantly told that they were the cream of the academic crop and many of the kids developed an attitude reflecting their status. When sneering and mocking the less-gifted kids in the regular 7th grade classes grew tiresome, they directed their attention inwards toward their peers.

    Who knows why I was singled out—I was always popular and well-liked previously at school through grade 6—but I became the whipping boy for their bad behavior.

    There were just too many of them to deal with. My life became a living hell. I refused to go to school for weeks at a time. My usual straight "A"s became "D"s and "F"s. I suspect the only reason I was passed to 8th grade was that it would have been an embarrassment to the accelerated program to keep back one of the overachievers.

    The events of that year influenced the rest of my academic career. I avoided taking advanced or AP classes in high school to avoid my tormentors. Without those classes, high grades and credits, I couldn't realistically hope to be accepted to any of the first tier schools that my former tormentors attended.

    I am a determined autodidact, so I taught myself everything I needed to succeed in life and do quite well as a self-employed consultant. But I do sometimes wonder how different things would be if I'd had a "normal" 7th grade.

    1. Re:Bullshit! I Was Bullied By The Other Smart Kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm betting you were singled out because you had more Light than they did, (that is, a soul and smarts and will power in healthy ratios).

      The pack hates people who have self-determination and the awareness of the bullshit around them.

      I bet dollars to donuts that you're an interesting guy with integrity, cool ideas and a solid sense of how to have a fun time with knowledge and the endless possibilities the world offers. I wish I knew more guys like you in highschool.

      I also bet people respect you today and wonder where their own lives went off the rails.

      I think the slave kids can sniff out those destined for spiritual success and hates them, precious. I sincerely hope you carry with you a lot of self-love and don't let the system push you into depression. The way to win is to stay happy and healthy and caring of your friends and family in the face of it all.

  74. Maybe... by DRMShill · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But I have to say that when I was in school, the fact that I did pretty well academically is always something that earned me respect. I run ins with my fair share of bullies and shitheads but really it didn't seem to have much to do with my intellect. Stupid kids got bullied just as much.

    I have to wonder if this whole concept of "nerd persecution" is concocted by nerds who don't want to admit that maybe they have obnoxious personalities and kind of had it coming.

  75. Re:So? What's new? by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

    Actually, Socrates knew exactly what he was doing. His students had bribed the guards and planned an escape for him, but instead he decided to sit around talking about how he didn't think death was all that bad, and drink the hemlock. According to Plato, Socrates' actual last words were:
    "Crito, I owe a rooster to Asclepius, will you remember to pay the debt?" (Benjamin Jowett translation)

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  76. Dunning-Kruger effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If we believe the dunning Kruger effect, that would imply that the self assessed intelligent people are in fact those whom are dumb and vice versa which greatly changes the meaning of these results. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

    1. Re:Dunning-Kruger effect by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      If we believe the dunning Kruger effect, that would imply that the self assessed intelligent people are in fact those whom are dumb and vice versa which greatly changes the meaning of these results. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

      So when they say, "You're not as smart as you think you are, dumbass!" they mean every word?

  77. It can even be worse by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    One classic sf writer went to a private school and discovered that getting someone expelled who is bringing the school tuition checks is even harder than it is in a public school.

    1. Re:It can even be worse by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It's not that hard. I went to an elite private school on scholarship. I was bullied. I was (effectively) expelled because I was being bullied. Since one of the bullies was the superintendent's son and the rest were rich, Cody Morgan was a classmate. His dad started and owned Morgan portable buildings (go on, goole them if you wish), and he had a go-cart track in his back yard and a Morgan portable building as an arcade (10-15 arcade machines), on Inwood Road in Dallas, not too far from Ross Perot or where Nick Stahl grew up (yes, I knew Nick growing up - Nick if you see this, tell Bonnie I said "hi"). And no, he wasn't rich (despite having a home worth millions and such). His dad "worked" for a living. The old money was higher than the new money, and the no money was on the bottom, except for the no money brought in to boost their sports team, they were treated between new and old money.

  78. Actually, not typical by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    In traditional societies, people who outperformed not only in warfare but also in council rhetoric got chosen as leaders.

  79. Where does your anger come from? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are you a hater? Yeah, there are idiots who blindly revile evolution and climate change.

    But why do you blindly reject everyone who disagrees with you on the subject? They're not all militant ignoramuses, just a few of the more visible ones. So why do you blindly hate? Is it because you're filled with propaganda, and just can't bring yourself to face your own prejudices?

    As the GP said, this is off topic. We're discussing bullying, not irrational politics (on EITHER side).

  80. I know someone warm and socially astute by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    She and her friends learned pretty early on that they couldn't go to the restroom in less than a group of three. Not their fault, and not even related to "I see your underpants!" teasing.

  81. And then prosecute their accomplices, by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    the "adults" who enable them by taking no action when someone is set on fire. (Having trouble finding the citation).

  82. What's wrong with being talented? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I was young I was talented, and one of my talents included martial arts :) No one really bullied me for it though.

  83. Nerds! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You should have guessed that the Jocks would try to come back FTW!

  84. Re:You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarde by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

    Grandparent post is an Idiocracy quote, for all those apparently missing the joke. The protagonist, Joe, the "most average man in the military" and all-around ordinary guy, wakes up from an experiment 500 years in the future, and sees Dr. Lexus, MD, whose diagnosis of Joe's condition is this thread's title, but who gives him the assurance quoted in GPP's post.

    --
    -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
    "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
  85. Parents by gd2shoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Where the f' are the parents in all this?

    That is a fantastic question. But... Whose parents? Note that the victims parents can't teach the bully that he's misbehaving.

    When I was in junior high, I was bullied frequently and mercilessly. My parents did get involved. They were told by the school councilor that I just had a self-esteem problem (I didn't) which somehow made myself a target (blame the victim, anyone?). They were told by teachers that there was nothing they could do (not true). They were told by administrators that everything was fine. They weren't permitted to contact the other students' parents. I blame the school system (primarily) for permitting bullying.

    --
    I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    1. Re:Parents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wasn't all that long ago that when the victim's parents showed up at the bully's house and informed them of the situation, the bully's parents beat the living snot out of the punk on the spot. Sometimes as the victim and his parents watched. Failing that, it was socially acceptable for the victim's parents to lay the bully out right and proper.

      The western world is a civilization of pussies and gross distortion of 'rights'. Talk accomplishes nothing. Bruises are the precondition to behavioral change. Always has been, always will be. The muslims and 3rd world laugh in derision at the abject stupidity of the first world.

    2. Re:Parents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They weren't permitted to contact the other students' parents. I blame the school system (primarily) for permitting bullying.

      My brother suffered a similar fate, almost exactly. I was completely with you on this up until this point. There's no way that the school should allow your parents to contact the other student's parents about this, I can't imagine how much shit that could cause. I do still agree with your conclusion though, and what's worse is that if you didn't have self-esteem problems BEFORE, one could certainly see how you could after being bullied full-time and then told that 1) it's your fault and 2) it's not a problem.

    3. Re:Parents by Caspian · · Score: 1

      THIS.

      --
      With spending like this, exactly what are "conservatives" conserving?
  86. Narcissism, thy name is Mensa by argStyopa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are a LOT of smart people out there that nobody hates. Perhaps it says more about you and your ego, than about "society" that they don't like you.

    I had a chat after a Cub Scout outing once, with one kid who was crying that "all the other kids hate me because I'm so much smarter than them".

    Obviously, I couldn't say it to the kid, who just needed a sympathetic shoulder at the moment, but the fact is: any kid whose parents have taught him that he's such a special snowflake that he could even HAVE such an egotistical, obnoxious thought, is in for trouble.

    And it's NOT because "he's so much smarter than everyone else". Not by a long shot.

    --
    -Styopa
  87. the real world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because of the lack of attention paid to how politics such as office politics and plutocracy usurped meritocracy it trickles down to where kids act it out in its most basic form bullying which the first reinforcement is, "get used to it, that's life"

  88. Re:So? What's new? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    Like many recent scientific studies, the appropriate response is "well, duh!"

  89. Schools are the worst bullies by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Alternatives: http://www.educationrevolution.org/

    From John Taylor Gatto's The Underground History of American Education: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/prologue.htm
    ====
    Our problem in understanding forced schooling stems from an inconvenient fact: that the wrong it does from a human perspective is right from a systems perspective. You can see this in the case of six-year-old Bianca, who came to my attention because an assistant principal screamed at her in front of an assembly, "BIANCA, YOU ANIMAL, SHUT UP!" Like the wail of a banshee, this sang the school doom of Bianca. Even though her body continued to shuffle around, the voodoo had poisoned her.

    Do I make too much of this simple act of putting a little girl in her place? It must happen thousands of times every day in schools all over. I've seen it many times, and if I were painfully honest I'd admit to doing it many times. Schools are supposed to teach kids their place. That's why we have age-graded classes. In any case, it wasn't your own little Janey or mine.

    Most of us tacitly accept the pragmatic terms of public school which allow every kind of psychic violence to be inflicted on Bianca in order to fulfill the prime directive of the system: putting children in their place. It's called "social efficiency." But I get this precognition, this flash-forward to a moment far in the future when your little girl Jane, having left her comfortable home, wakes up to a world where Bianca is her enraged meter maid, or the passport clerk Jane counts on for her emergency ticket out of the country, or the strange lady who lives next door.

    I picture this animal Bianca grown large and mean, the same Bianca who didn't go to school for a month after her little friends took to whispering, "Bianca is an animal, Bianca is an animal," while Bianca, only seconds earlier a human being like themselves, sat choking back tears, struggling her way through a reading selection by guessing what the words meant.

    In my dream I see Bianca as a fiend manufactured by schooling who now regards Janey as a vehicle for vengeance. In a transport of passion she:

    1. Gives Jane's car a ticket before the meter runs out.
    2. Throws away Jane's passport application after Jane leaves the office.
    3. Plays heavy metal music through the thin partition which separates Bianca's apartment from Jane's while Jane pounds frantically on the wall for relief.
    4. All the above.

    You aren't compelled to loan your car to anyone who wants it, but you are compelled to surrender your school-age child to strangers who process children for a livelihood, even though one in every nine schoolchildren is terrified of physical harm happening to them in school, terrified with good cause; about thirty-three are murdered there every year. From 1992 through 1999, 262 children were murdered in school in the United States. Your great-great-grandmother didn't have to surrender her children. What happened?

    If I demanded you give up your television to an anonymous, itinerant repairman who needed work you'd think I was crazy; if I came with a policeman who forced you to pay that repairman even after he broke your set, you would be outraged. Why are you so docile when you give up your child to a government agent called a schoolteacher?

    I want to open up concealed aspects of modern schooling such as the deterioration it forces in the morality of parenting. You have no say at all in choosing your teachers. You know nothing about their backgrounds or families. And the state knows little more than you do. This is as radical a piece of social engineering as the human imagination can conceive. What does it mean?

    One thing you do know is how unlikely it will be for any teacher to understand the personality of your particular child or anything significant about yo

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:Schools are the worst bullies by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Stop quoting John Taylor Gatto. He doesn't believe in citations. That means you shouldn't cite him. To him, citation is a "game that academics play". I know this because I emailed him looking for a citation once, and his assistant returned my email and told me. John Taylor Gatto might be right about everything, but unfortunately, everything he has ever written is worthless in debate.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Schools are the worst bullies by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      "I know this because I emailed him looking for a citation once, and his assistant returned my email and told me"

      Citation please? :-) Or are anecdotes, like in Gattos' story, permissible as evidence in discussion?

      Yes, in one of Gatto's books he says he wants readers to research this for themselves. See:
      http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/prologue8.htm
      "Despite its title, Underground History isn't a history proper, but a collection of materials toward a history, embedded in a personal essay analyzing why mass compulsion schooling is unreformable. The history I have unearthed is important to our understanding; it's a good start, I believe, but much remains undone. The burden of an essay is to reveal its author so candidly and thoroughly that the reader comes fully awake. You are about to spend twenty-five to thirty hours with the mind of a schoolteacher, but the relationship we should have isn't one of teacher to pupil but rather that of two people in conversation. I'll offer ideas and a theory to explain things and you bring your own experience to bear on the matters, supplementing and arguing where necessary. Read with this goal before you and I promise your money's worth. It isn't important whether we agree on every detail.
          A brief word on sources. I've identified all quotations and paraphrases and given the origin of many (not all) individual facts, but for fear the forest be lost in contemplation of too many trees, I've avoided extensive footnoting. So much here is my personal take on things that it seemed dishonest to grab you by the lapels that way: of minor value to those who already resonate on the wavelength of the book, useless, even maddening, to those who do not."

      Gatto may play fast and loose with some things, but overall he paints a coherent big picture and the core points of his arguments are easily found through some web searches. Here are two examples both with a bunch of citations on similar themes to what Gatto says:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system
      http://www.social-ecology.org/2003/10/the-emergence-of-compulsory-schooling-and-anarchist-resistance/

      I collected lots of links to a variety of authors who say similar things here:
      http://p2pfoundation.net/backups/p2p_research-archives/2009-October/005379.html

      Or see:
      http://studentliberation.com/main-anti-school-literature.html

      What Gatto does have is a free online book that goes into depth into this based on his award-winning thirty years of experience teaching in the NYC public school system. Disagree with him and his perspspective and analysis perhaps, but at least he writes from a tremendous amount of first-hand experience.

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    3. Re:Schools are the worst bullies by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      "I know this because I emailed him looking for a citation once, and his assistant returned my email and told me"

      Citation please? :-) Or are anecdotes, like in Gattos' story, permissible as evidence in discussion?

      OK, here you go.


      From: martin.espinoza@gmail.com
      To: info@johntaylorgatto.com
      Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:35:54 -0700 (PST)

      This is really brilliant. But, where are the citations? It's the kind of thing I'd like to cite heavily, every day...

      From: (suppressed)
      To: <martin.espinoza@gmail.com>
      Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:48:41 -0400

      John rarely, if ever, bothers to include formal citations in his work. He believes its a game played by academics not real scholars...This drives most people insane...But he has done the underlying work. I have checked out hundreds of his sources...and they are nearly flawless...If you have a particular question or two I can try and point you in the right direction.

      Of course, you're going to have to take my word for it that this communication is not a fabrication, because I'm not handing over my gmail password.

      Gatto may play fast and loose with some things, but overall he paints a coherent big picture and the core points of his arguments are easily found through some web searches

      I sent my above email because I couldn't find any worthy citation for something I had read in his writings, so I disagree strongly with what you're saying.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Schools are the worst bullies by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      "Of course, you're going to have to take my word for it that this communication is not a fabrication, because I'm not handing over my gmail password."

      Even if you supplied your gmail password, and I checked your account, a message could still be faked if you had a friend at Google or did funky things with email routing. :-) I'm not saying that message is fake -- it sounds completely like something an assistant of Gatto might say. (He even offered to help resolve a particular point or two.)

      I'm just suggesting that a citation may not really "prove" anything if one is hardnosed about it. See:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
      Or George Orwell:
      http://orwell.ru/library/articles/nose/english/e_nose
      "There is no use in multiplying examples. The point is that we are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield."

      Even science as a human endeavor is rife with fraud, group think, conflict-of-interest, learned helplessness, and so on; see this collection of quotes I put together:
      http://www.pdfernhout.net/to-james-randi-on-skepticism-about-mainstream-science.html#Some_quotes_on_social_problems_in_science

      What has happened in the USA is that ideas like compulsory schooling (and a variety of other things, like linking the right to consume to having a job) is starting to bump up again the solid reality of 21st century high technology and the 21st century and ideas spreading across the planet. Bullying growing as a problem in schools and so kids hiding their talents is just one example of many. I wrote my own essay on that a few years back:
      http://patapata.sourceforge.net/WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html

      Anyway, just because one, or even several, of an author's points can't be substantiated, or are even completely wrong, does not necessarily invalidate a broader message. It depends on how central the specific points are to the overall argument. How many citations do you see in the essays of Mark Twain or the poems of Maya Angelou?

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    5. Re:Schools are the worst bullies by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Anyway, just because one, or even several, of an author's points can't be substantiated, or are even completely wrong, does not necessarily invalidate a broader message.

      That's not what I said, and you're committing numerous logical fallacies. First, your quotations which attack citation prove nothing. They only even suggest that some citations are not worth citing. Fair enough, but that challenges nothing I said whatsoever. Second, what I said is that you shouldn't cite him, because he has citations for nothing he said. You're attacking a straw man. Stop it. You can read him all day, but when you cite him you compromise your credibility. That's your decision, but it's a bad one.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  90. A boy named by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sue

  91. The problem is this by Tastecicles · · Score: 5, Informative

    A word has been invented and used to label what is essentially assault, simply because it is minors assaulting minors. Can we PLEASE call it what it is and DEAL WITH IT as ASSAULT? As in, treat it as a CRIMINAL OFFENCE instead of just saying "kids will be kids" ::rolleyes::? Let's make examples of these so-called "bullies", criminalise their activities and maybe the incidence will go DOWN.

    I wasn't "bullied" at school. I was ASSAULTED. My overachievement in all fields of study suffered, so by the time I got to college age I just couldn't be arsed any more. I went from straight-A to C/D/E/F in my GCSEs, and scraped by in A-level physics and biology and completely failed advanced math. Fortunately I managed to beat that stigma and went on to run several successful businesses, all of which I parted company with reputation intact and no creditors.

    As an aside, schools don't like it when you send them Cease & Desist notices to get them to address problems of targetted assaults on their students which they're doing nothing about. They like it even less when you pull your own kids from their institutions citing "multiple assaults by students and teaching staff" with dates and times. They go all out to perjure themselves in sudden and unexpected parallel care proceedings when you file suit against the local education authority for failure to perform to expectations as Corporate Parents in ensuring student safety.

    So it's not just a culture of "bullying" that schools are neglecting until it's thrown into the limelight by pissed off parents who are having to take their kids to the hospital every two weeks, it's a culture of perpetuation of the problem on the part of the institutions, whose staff themselves are PART OF THE PROBLEM. Let's have this all out in the open so we can DEAL WITH IT, before more kids die at the hands of these "bullies" through terminal attacks or suicides!

    --
    Operation Guillotine is in effect.
    1. Re:The problem is this by FoolishOwl · · Score: 2

      I totally agree.

      My experience of early elementary school was that the bullies were actually encouraged by many of the teachers and administrators, and I was explicitly blamed for "inciting" them.

      We live in a cruelly hierarchical society, in which victim-blaming is extremely common.

    2. Re:The problem is this by jittles · · Score: 1

      Cool. Lets start throwing all those 5-18 year old kids in jail. I'll open my own private prison and retire in 10 years or less.

    3. Re:The problem is this by MotorMachineMercenar · · Score: 1

      Laws are not a solution to this problem.

      --
      "We have an A-Bomb...what more do you want, mermaids?" --I.I. Rabi, speaking in defense of Robert Oppenheimer
    4. Re:The problem is this by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I agree with you entirely. In sixth grade I moved away from the kids I'd known all my life, and across town which meant I had to go to a different school... and I went from being in an elementary school on the nice side of the county to being in a middle school in a poor part of the county. I became a target for daily abuse of all kinds, always involving physical. When I finally won a fight because the bullies tricked a kid into actually picking a fight with me instead of just picking on me and walking away, I beat the living fuck out of him and got expelled and sent to yet ANOTHER school... after finally getting respect from the kids in my school for blackening both of someone's eyes. By expelling me, the administration deliberately supported the bullies who had harassed me and pushed me to this point. I hope they die in a fire.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:The problem is this by Tastecicles · · Score: 1

      Approved schools and secure units. We do still have those. Let's fucking use them. And pound-me-in-the-ass jail for those in positions of trust who by action or omission are found to have failed in their duty of care.

      We don't need more laws, we already have them. Let's drop this PC "Think of the children!" bullshit and grow some fucking backbone.

      --
      Operation Guillotine is in effect.
    6. Re:The problem is this by jittles · · Score: 1

      The point I am trying to make is that if you treat these incidences as assault, you are going to have a lot of kids in juvenile detention. Lets face it, kids are impulsive, and make very rash decisions sometimes. Is bullying a bad thing? Yes. No one should be picked on every single day. But no matter what you do, kids will still be mean to each other, they will still fight, they will still get into trouble. So why do we have to turn schools into little concentration camps?

    7. Re:The problem is this by Tastecicles · · Score: 1

      they're already concentration camps, you don't need to do anything. Every classroom I've seen has every seat facing the same direction - towards a board that dominates. When classes are on, the blinds are drawn so the children can't see outside - focussing their attention. Striplights abound - which can and do cause epileptic seizures. Learning is by rote, critical thinking is discouraged, even punished with segregation (no, don't try and tell me that supersmart kids are encouraged in schools, I know that isn't true. They're segregated, socially isolated, and sit bored out of their skulls because the teachers are not smart enough to find them something to do. You'll sometimes find, as I did during my school years, that some supersmart kids are smarter than all the teachers combined.

      Oh yeah, we now have local education authorities in the UK advertising for proofreaders to check school correspondence for spelling and grammatical errors before they go out. I bullshit you not.

      --
      Operation Guillotine is in effect.
    8. Re:The problem is this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Criminalize grade school children? Have you lost your mind? That will solve nothing. You take a child, focus on that now, a CHILD, who obviously already has issues, and put them in the criminal justice system for calling someone names, maybe shoving someone? You might as well shoot the kid in the head, because you will be destroying any chance they have at a future as a balanced healthy adjusted adult.

      Bullying is not assault.
      Calling someone names is not assault.
      Mocking someone, or hurting their feelings is not assault.

      Somehow people in this age have gotten it into their heads that they have the right to never be offended, or have their feelings hurt. Let me clear that up for you, you posses no such right. You have the right to be safe in your person and your property from physical harm yes, not all bullying is physical. And even the bullying that is physical is very rarely assault.

      What we need to be doing is teaching children how to deal with all sorts of social situations. If the bullying escalates to physical interaction, or if the taunting becomes extreme we need these kids to have a recourse, where an adult can help them, but long before it gets their they should be working to solve these problems their selves.

      For the record, I was bullied as a child. I was small for my age, I was shy and private and didn't make friends easily. I would wager that at various times I suffered worse then most. Do you know who solved it for me? Who made it stop? I did. And because I did, it STOPPED. I don't mean one kid left me alone, or that they stopped doing one thing, I mean that it STOPPED. Because at any time if it began again, I knew how to deal with it, and that was the end of it.

      Sometimes I dealt with it with jokes, sometimes with threats. Sometimes with insults, and sometimes I spoke with adults. On several occasions I dealt with it physically.

      Many these days see all forms of physical violence as wrong. I happen to disagree, but if you feel that way, fine. Teach your kids not to fight back with their fists, teach them to use their minds, and their voices. That's all the really need, assuming of course that they have somebody to listen to them.

      What we need to not do, is destroy the life of some 9 year old who is picking on another kid because his parents treat him like garbage at home, and he doesn't know any better way to behave.

  92. Tall poppy syndrome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Happens in business too. I know many people that have been "pushed" out because they have more skills or do better than their managers.

  93. Izzy Kalman would agree: Bullies to Buddies by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    http://bullies2buddies.com/
    http://bullies2buddies.com/Free-Manuals/enjoy-our-free-resources.html
    "How to Stop Being Teased and Bullied Without Really Trying.
    This manual will teach kids why they are being picked on and how to make it stop without anyone's help and without getting anyone in trouble!"

    It doesn't matter if kids are smarter, dumber, shorter, taller, fatter, thinner, darker, lighter, or whatever -- any noticeable difference (or even none at all except being on the other side of the room) is something someone else can try to make fun of. Most bullying situations can be handled by following Izzy Kalman's advice which teaches the vitim how to break a cycle of social behavior by just not responding in old ways that give the aggressor rewards, and he points out the few percent of bullying situations which can't. He suggests most current anti-bullying laws often just make the probem worse because they ignore the underlying social system dynamics. Serious violence rarely comes out of nowhere. There is a pattern of escalation, and Izzy Kalman's ideas, based on "The Golden Rule" and "Love Your Bullies" are ways out of that escalation.

    See also this other author, Alfie Kohn, for a different vision of success than the competetive one celebrated by so many in the USA:
    http://www.shareintl.org/archives/cooperation/co_nocontest.htm

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:Izzy Kalman would agree: Bullies to Buddies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the manual:

      WARNING: I want it to be clear that what I tell you about physical bullying applies only when the bullies are kids who are more or less emotionally stable. Even though they are a small minority, there are kids who are extremely disturbed and dangerous. If they are bullying you, you should either avoid them or make sure you have people to protect you when you are near them.

      I guess that was why this advise didn't stop didn't stop my bully, it only made him hurt me less but he kept going on for years nevertheless:

      The best thing to do, if you didn't get hurt, is just to make believe you didn't notice.

    2. Re:Izzy Kalman would agree: Bullies to Buddies by wildstoo · · Score: 1

      From a cursory examination of the texts you don't actually have to pay for, Izzy's ideas amount to "just don't give 'em the satisfaction", which in my experience does not work at all.

      I'm also instantly skeptical of the fact that this program is a commercial enterprise, but perhaps that's common in the US. I dunno.

      But hey, if it works for a few kids then it's better than nothing... at least he admits in the text that his methods won't actually stop all bullying.

    3. Re:Izzy Kalman would agree: Bullies to Buddies by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      One of the hard things about following Izzy Kalman's advice is that if you only "just don't give 'em the satisfaction" 90% of the time, the other 10% puts them on a random reinforcement schedule with is the most powerful form of reward. It has to be 100%. If so, then it is going to take care of 95% or so of bullying situations, I would guess. Also, Izzy Kalman talks about other ways that people can become less of a bully magnet through personal development (including learning to see someone else's point of view, even that of a "bully", a sort of Dale Carnegie aspect). And as he also say, nothing stops teasing 100%. It seems part of human nature to playfully tease. He only says his approach will get rid of much of the teasing, not all. He tries to stop the escalation of teasing into something serious. And he tries to uphold basic ideas of democracy like freedom of speech.

      But with that said, I've also been critical of Izzy's approach. My concern is, as great as his ideas, there are environmental factors contributing to dysfunctional human behavior especially in kids today such as:
      * poor nutrition, especially lack of vegetables and omega 3s
      * food additives
      * lack of sunlight and vitamin D
      * lack of exercise
      * certain children's media http://dianeelevin.com/books/
      * economic stress including overworked two-income families and single parent families
      * family breakdown
      * lack of interaction with nature
      * school teachers modeling violating boundaries with authoritarianism inherent in what they do
      * the inability to escape the classroom situation so you could otherwise choose where you want to spend your time and who you want to spend it with
      * the pressured medication of children
      * and probably other things
      which together make the whole social environment more prone to bullying, especially in school. Especially issues like poor nutrition and such are going to contribute to more mentally unstable people in our society. Izzy Kalman does not address these fundamental things. Also, a case can be made for social ideals that promote cooperation rather than model competition (Alfie Kohn's point). An approach towards bullying that integrates both Izzy Kalman's insights and addressing these other environmental aspects is going to be more effective IMHO. But any combined approach would need to respect Izzy Kalman's core points about things like freedom of speech, the golden rule, and cycles of escalation.

      Izzy Kalman has numerous testimonials on his site, and is himself a school psychologist. His suggestions make sense to me from what I know about cybernetics and psychology, as well as from personal experience.

      Because Izzy Kalman gives away so much for free online with books and videos and essays, the fact that he presumably charges for workshops and consulting, and sells printed books and CDs does not really bother me much. I'd agree if might be better if some foundation funded his work. I just don't get the feeling he is in it for the money. Still, you are probably right to think that is more of a US thing.

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  94. Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have been in GATE classes since kindergarten, honors classes in intermediate school, and AP classes in high school. I could drink, fight, and fuck with the best of them. Of course that is the reason I can't brag about any college accomplishments....

  95. Re:So? What's new? by tragedy · · Score: 2

    The post you're replying to was an oblique reference to the movie _Real Genius_ where Val Kilmer's character invents a Socrates quote for the sake of comedy.

  96. Slight Change In 50 Years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is less likely to be the teacher who is the bully.

  97. 90% were too intelligent? by loshwomp · · Score: 1

    90% were bullied for being too intelligent? How can *everybody* be overly intelligent? Was the survey was conducted in Lake Wobegon, by any chance?

    1. Re:90% were too intelligent? by sir-gold · · Score: 1

      "more than 90% of the 1,000 11-16 year-olds surveyed said they had been bullied or seen someone bullied"

    2. Re:90% were too intelligent? by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      "more than 90% of the 1,000 11-16 year-olds surveyed said they had been bullied or seen someone bullied"

      Very often seen by the bully who's pummelling them no doubt.

  98. And we have the nerve to ask homeschoolers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "What about socialization?"

    P.S. before you jump in an reply, make sure you know the difference between socializing and socialization.

  99. Not credible. by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

    "Almost half of children and young people (49.5%) have played down a talent for fear of being bullied, rising to 53% among girls."

    If 50% of people have got something, it's not talent.

    It sounds like yet another confirmation of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

    1. Re:Not credible. by sir-gold · · Score: 1

      those 50% don't have the SAME talent. 100% of the students have a talent of some sort, it's only 50% that have downplayed it

    2. Re:Not credible. by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      I was in middle school once. I beg to differ.

  100. If you believe this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you believe this. Then I have a virtual ruby I'll sell to you for $10 million dollars...

  101. This is new? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It was the same in the 70s, why should it change? Be a jock, it's more fun.

  102. Blame Texas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really.

  103. Re:So? What's new? by stms · · Score: 1

    The only people who should find this surprising are people who grew up somewhere away from all human contact,.

    Sounds like the perfect story for most of us /.ers.

  104. Re:Not so bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is not all bad tho, because it is more then likely that those studies are conducted there studies at home or else where. I am not sure if this study asked the students if they in fact continue to study and keep advancing there skills away from school.

    While they may intentionally dummy themselves down in school, they more then likely will continue to be ahead of there grades and this could be seen in there college studies or what ever advanced schooling they decide to choose.

    I find it hard to believe from this study that is what students get bullied over. I have heard of students getting shunned by classmates for being talented, because those students have a stereo type notion that a talented student thinks they are of royalty, or they are to good to be around anyone else that is not as talented. Is this really bullying or has the media and these study groups just trying to make shit up and label it as bullying.

  105. An analogy to life under the Democratic party by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The headline and subject of this article brings to mind the Democratic party. Democrats espouse the concepts of the lower, middle class (aka lower, middle achievers). And they want to punish the high achievers, vilifying them for being more successful in life (or in this case academics). Maybe I am biased since I belong to the 1% (barely) but I work insane hours and am oncall all the time. So having my earnings be taxed for not only the less fortunate but also the lazy, the undocumented, the un-educated really gets me mad.

    We all acknowledge that the government is in-efficient but in this case we want to give it more power to tax individuals. Insane thinking...

  106. counterpoint by swell · · Score: 1

    " ... recent anti-bullying survey conducted by ABA ... "

    Before taking the ABA's (anti-bullyingalliance) 'survey' as the final word;
    consider the survey of the CBA's (Conscientious Bully's Alliance) survey:

    "87.2% (91% of girls) of bullies felt deeply hurt by subtle intimidation by smarter students whose facial expressions and body language seemed to suggest some sort of superiority. Most of these otherwise ethical bullies were unable to describe the offending behavior due to lack of language and observational skills.

    "Though many of these bullies try to observe the CBA code of conduct, they were unable to resist the compulsion to respond to this intimidation with physical and verbal enthusiasm. 41% of males who used physical violence and 32% of females who were somewhat less physical expressed regret for their uncontrollable outbursts. A common statement was "I couldn't help myself, I just wanted to crush that cockroach!"

    "The CBA and its members, donors, affiliates and friends wish to remind all that bullying is a condition that needs more study and understanding. Your donation and continued research will help to understand the causes and minimize the insulting triggers perpetrated by smart kids and adults."

    --
    ...omphaloskepsis often...
  107. As Salvor Hardin frequently reminded us... by The_Star_Child · · Score: 1

    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

  108. Vengeance is mine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, I got bullied in a math class of all places. So, I really hit the books and started wrecking the curve. By the end of the year I could have gotten a 30 on the final and still gotten an A+.

    Felt damn good too, for all the crap I took in that class.

  109. ummm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This was my whole middle school life and only now people care?

  110. Well of course! by Apothem · · Score: 1

    Because being bullied doesn't always occur from fellow students. As an individual does better in school, the parents have a tendency to expect TOO much of their kids, and start going apesh*t when they don't perform to their own expectations. Sometimes it's not so much the other people at the school as much as it is the people at home. School seems to just be the place where the frustrations at home just end up getting vented.

  111. In other news-- by dryo · · Score: 1

    The Pope is Catholic, bears shit in the woods, and kids are mean to each other. Also, American teachers and principals turn a blind eye to bullying. It's seen as a necessary process of determining the social pecking order. So what if, every now and then, some sensitive artist or nerdy engineer kid commits suicide?

  112. Really? by Brawlking · · Score: 1

    Is this news to people? The kid that raised his hand and answered questions has always gotten picked on, this is nothing new. I was that kid, I still am, people still hate me for being as smart as I am. I stopped letting it bother me a long time ago.

  113. Thanks for the excuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, that's the ticket. I've been less than triumphant in my career because I was hiding my talent under a bushel.

  114. USA is a scary country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After reading these comments, I can't help but to believe that USA is the scariest developed country in the world.

    I'm not planning to have kids, but if I ever had, USA would be the last place I would like to see them grow up.

    I grown up in Portugal at a time where we were even poorer than we are right now and attended to public schools.

    Funny fact is that in my high school when I was 15, I would have people with 20-21 on it. Needless is to say that I would be considered a genius compared to them. Truth is, they loved me. They even would protect me if needed. I guess I just knew how to fit in? I mean I did liked to play football (soccer) or any other sport on the breaks with them.

    Does that mean I was playing dumb? Because I never felt dumb while doing it. I actually had lots of fun. I think being smart and intelligent can go hand by hand with being physical activity.

    Being good on one doesn't make you bad on the other. Maybe I was just lucky?

  115. I did this by minogully · · Score: 0

    Bully's didn't pick on me because they were jealous that I was smarter than them, like some here suggest is always the case. No, they didn't give a shit about their grades, so what difference would the height of my grades make. Instead, they picked on me because I was different than the majority. Once I figured that out, I adjusted my behaviours to be more normal, and they stopped once they forgot who I used to be.

    1. Re:I did this by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Bully's didn't pick on me because they were jealous that I was smarter than them, like some here suggest is always the case. No, they didn't give a shit about their grades, so what difference would the height of my grades make. Instead, they picked on me because I was different than the majority. Once I figured that out, I adjusted my behaviours to be more normal, and they stopped once they forgot who I used to be.

      What a horrible thing to suggest, "You are the reason you are bullied, you must change to be like everyone else." You have my pity for such a terrible childhood. While I realize that public schools are mostly an obedience and conformity system, it is still a sad sad thing.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  116. Re:So? What's new? by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

    Asclepius was, of course, the god of medicine, which has led some people to think that perhaps Socrates accepted the death sentence (he could have avoided it by going into exile, which is was in fact the expected response in such cases) because he was terminally ill.

  117. really? by Krau+Ming · · Score: 1

    we needed a study to confirm this???

  118. Example... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I had the highest SAT scores in the history of my school and was the most bullied in my school, my grades were in the bottom third of my class.

  119. This proves their cleverness, they'll be fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Provided they eventually find their way to an environment where they can safely shine (college, trade school, etc.) they'll do okay. Yeah they won't be going to Harvard on bad grades, but they probably weren't going anyway due to socio-economic issues that must be present for this situation to exist in the first place.

  120. Not a new topic by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    This has been going on a very very long time. It was around when I was in school (which was a long time ago), and it certainly predates me. I am not saying that something should not be done about it, only that this is an old problem. It has some new twists with new technology as we have seen in the last few years. However the physical stuff is pretty much the same. I imagine the problem is the same now as it was when I was in school, teachers couldn't do a whole hell of a lot unless it was blatent enough of being done right in front of them. In many cases, they are powerless to do anything, or are fearful of getting sued or fired for taking action. I learned pretty early to fight back, bullies don't like that, particulary every now and then when you actually hurt them back. Perfect example was where I was getting cronically bullied, and then one day during one such session, I managed to kick him in the balls as hard as I could. The only reprimand I got from teachers was "I shouldn't kick a guy there" (no suspension or anything), but they all knew what was going on, and I got the impression that they looked the other way a little bit in my benefit (inaction can go both ways). The bully was out of school for several days. Anyway it isn't for everyone, but sooner or later you have to stand up for yourself and defend yourself, you can always depend on someone else to arbitrate it away. In a perfect world kids wouldn't have to worry about that stuff, but we live in anything but, we should take reasonable measures to minimize this activity, but I doubt you will ever be rid of it. Certainly enabling teachers with some legal protection might be a good first step, as that seems to a common thread.

  121. Public VS private by phorm · · Score: 1

    One of the more significant differences is the schools' ability to deal with troublemakers. In a public school, it's hard not to accept students, and they have to cause a fairly high degree of trouble before you hit expulsion level (and if the parents challenge it... it's a very political process).

    In a private school, it's simpler to permanently expel a problem student (bullies, etc).

    However, if your school administration doesn't give a crap... well then neither one is great.

  122. Maybe bullying wouldn't be so prevalant by Alien7 · · Score: 1

    if they stopped treating bright children so differently in our education system. I remember some of my peers in elementary school intentionally failing out of "advanced" classes to rejoin the herd back in the classroom. If you create a special class of kid and it's by definition a small section those children will inevitably be picked on. Allow the smart kids to enlighten the rest and maybe they won't be a special case anymore...

  123. Happens to many kids by ai4px · · Score: 1

    My ex is a high school teacher here in central South Carolina. Many years ago when she started teaching she'd come home and tell me about some kid in one of her classes who acted "too cool for school" but really excelled on tests. After observing this several times, she realized that in certain.... uhh.... "urban" cultures, being smart is considered being "too white" and will not be tolerated. She came up with an analogy of crabs pulling each other back into a pot.

  124. breed bigger nerds by WillgasM · · Score: 1

    I didn't have this problem in school, and neither did any other kids while I was around. Why? I'm a huge nerd, but I also overproduce testosterone. Sure I always won first place in the science fair, but I was also an offensive lineman. I was president of the NHS, but I could also grow a beard at 13. Bullies didn't dare out the nerds because doing so would have put them at odds with me. Besides that, the 'popular' kids at my school were pretty receptive to odd-ducks. Quirkiness was encouraged. We realized that we were all kinda dorks; no use in singling out one group or another. Granted, I went to a very small school, so I'm sure my HS experience was the exception rather than the norm. However, it seems our school was a pretty good model. Pop culture is moving somewhat in the right direction with nerd culture becoming more accepted and Zooey Deschanel popping up everywhere. Just add a sprinkling of nerds on roids and the problem should fix itself within a few years.

  125. Not new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not new. It was the same when I was a kid. I was small and skinny and late hitting puberty. I also had perfect scores on most exams, at a time when they were literally announced over the PA system! That was supposed to shame kids who didn't do well into trying harder. All it did was make me a target. I ended up making friends with one of the most dangerous guys in my school and getting him to put out the word that if anyone touched me, he'd make them regret it. It was self-preservation.

  126. Egalitarianism is the problem by tbg58 · · Score: 1

    Egalitarianism is misguided and naive, and leads to this sort of bullying.

    Fact: You can redistribute wealth, you can redistribute false self-esteem, but you can't redistribute smarts. The bell curve forever divides the intellectual haves and have nots. And those who haven't got brains are more likely to use their fists.

    We need to rebuild a school system that rewards excellence, that challenges smart kids to be all they can be. The current system not only holds them back, but subjects them to bullying by their intellectual inferiors. But the current system is scared to death of even a hint of elitism. It's not elitism to reward achievement and develop gifted kids. It's just common sense. But this is utterly lost on the radical egalitarians.

  127. I remember subconsciously doing this myself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I am 60. I was at the top of my class for first few years of primary, and I suddenly quit getting good grades. Pretty sure for that reason. I'd rather face the wrath of the nuns who were teaching and my parents than be singled out for bullying because I was smart.

  128. See, here's the thing.... by raehl · · Score: 1

    When I was in school, I was incredibly academically talented, and marginally athletically talented, and skinny. Very, very skinny. And socially underdeveloped. And initially, I got a lot of unwanted, negative attention.

    But here's the thing - I realized I was doing some things to earn that attention.

    Think, for example, about joining the football team as someone who is not athletically talented. It's going to be embarrassing. You're not going to be able to catch the ball. You're not going to be able to throw the ball. You're going to look embarrassingly inferior to everyone else who is playing and is athletically talented. The coach is going to give all his attention to the best players. Someone is going to take the ball, knock you on your ass, score the touch down and, well, you're not going to feel so good about it.

    So, what happens? Well, you DON'T JOIN THE FOOTBALL TEAM! Problem solved, embarrassment avoided.

    Now, let's turn this around. Let's say you're not academically talented. You go to class, but you just don't get it. Every time the teacher calls on you you're not sure of the answer, and there's this other kid that's raising his hand all the time answering all the questions right. He does well on all the tests, gets all the recognition from the teacher, and is having a good time while you struggle.

    So, what happens? Well, you HAVE to go to class, so there's no escape. Day in and day out this kid is rubbing your face in the fact that he's smarter than you. And there's no escape. It would be like a nerd being forced to play football every day.

    I think we all understand that bullies are usually acting out of a place where they feel bad about themselves. So the first step, if you find yourself on the receiving end of a bully, is asking yourself, "Am I behaving in a way that makes others feel bad about themselves?" If so, stop doing that, and you might find your situation improve. I know it did for me.

    I'm not saying you have to stop being smart, but you should make sure you're not "spiking the ball" as it were. Don't answer every single question in class. Don't show off your test results to people who didn't do as well. Be nice when people ask you for help. Recognize other people's achievements - even if they are not in areas YOU think are important. Tell somebody they played a good game or whatever.

    A lot of "nerds" don't realize that all the behavior they resent the "jocks" exhibiting on them about sports or what not, we often do the EXACT SAME THING back, just different things. If you don't want people to treat you like you're different, then you can't make them feel like you think they're different - or at least not inferior.

    So, if someone you know finds themselves being bullied, make sure you check that it's not just because they're being a pretentious ass to others who are not talented in the same areas that they are.

    1. Re:See, here's the thing.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not about merely being treated differently; it's about outright bullying. I may have done well in school, but I never rubbed that fact in anyone's face or bullied anyone and yet I still was bullied.

  129. German Solution for smart kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Avoid bullying... Create special schools for the smart kids. German schools has three group for kids. School for smart kids, school for average kids, and school for hands-on vocational for kids.

  130. school sucked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know for sure when I was younger I played dumb. It eventually leaked out when they were harassing me for not doing homework but taking tests and getting perfect scores. I only went there to be with friends because everything else was too boring, no stimulation in what has been one of the less worthy school districts in the country. I eventually wound up quitting high school to stop wasting time, got my GED and went to college.

  131. Seperate schools for high IQ students by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 1

    Here's a wild idea: why not have seperate schools for gifted, well behaved students where they can learn to their hearts content without bullying. there is no need for high IQ students to put up with this bullying crap.

  132. Even in college by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

    My daughter goes to Colorado School of Mines, a school for geeks. She is a senior with a 4.0 GPA. None of her classmates or roommates know that. She keeps quiet because it's easier to get along.

    Her roommates are all chemical engineering majors. One of them got a 100 on a test last week and it was tense after that in the house.
    I'm not sure what the exact definition of bullying is.

  133. How is this news? by fluffynuts · · Score: 1

    Sad and disgraceful for the human race though this may be, it's not news. Talented and bright kids have been disguising their talents to fly under bully radar since time immemorial.

  134. This is nothing new at all. by company+suckup · · Score: 0

    I have an uncle now in his 80's who dumbed himself down in high school in the 1940's to avoid bullying. And this was in small town Midwest. Podunk USA if there ever was. This man was intelligent enough to take on the most challenging academic path there was but he didn't want to appear overly smart to his peers for fear of getting picked on and beat up. Nothing new under the sun here.

  135. Not an excuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My experience in high school (just graduated last year) was that intelligence and high performance on tests was something to be coveted. I went to a public high school, and sure there would be the off-comment about nerdiness or bookworming or what have you, but those who aced the SATs and had all A's were seen as 'going somewhere'.

    Kids did get bullied, but none of them were academically brighter than anyone else. It was because they stood out as vulnerable, and that's why they were targeted.

    If you're academically bright, then it's up to you alone to reach your potential. No one is going to harass you for pursuing your goals unless you let them know they can. So performing below your potential for fear of harassment is a cop-out.